« The Joe Rogan Experience

MMA Show #9 with Jeff Novitzky

2018-01-03 | 🔗
Joe Rogan sits down with Jeff Novitzky, who is currently the Vice President of Athlete Health and Performance for UFC.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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we just go to ziprecruiter dot com slash rogan that zip recruiter dot com forward slash rogan one more time to try it for free ziprecruiter dot com forward slash rogan my guest today is the great and powerful jeff novitzky he you might know him as the golden snitch unfortunately a lot of people do it for him yeah that works for the ufc now used to be with usada and he was one of the guys that busted lance armstrong and now they run the ufc anti doping program and he's the will describe it is have a prosecutor now or a detective and much more and athletes liaison there essentially just trying to make sure that the athletes don't take anything accidentaly an we go into great depth about how much that program has helped the athletes they've actually got all that
changes sort of charted and we indigo we also going to death about the ufc performance institute which is this new place they have that is just under leave obli insane and high tech and it's just complete state of the art fascinating conversation so you're interested in performance enhancing doping laws and regulations and and where it stands right now this is a good one so please give it up for jeff novitsky don't open broadcaster joe rogan experience join my day joe rogan podcast my name all day gentlemen jeff novitsky how anybody doing good i have to ask you do you mind the nickname the golden snitch so first thing i was going to bring up this golden snitch bullshit i just want to say it's not my nickname it's brenda jobs he came up with it one hundred percent on his own was going to ask you it's all good though
but it's all good so a couple funny stories that that so when did you come this about a year ago at least yeah so people in the office started coming up to me saying hey golden snitch what the hells add a little research i see something about harry potter some character named there like what the hell does this have to do with me so month ago somebody let's me know hey check out wikipedia so for whatever reason there's a jeff novitzky wikipedia page you page now says says action my formal name jeffrey john novitsky aka the golden snitch so last week don marcolina you know donna long fifteen urine to the ufc now works with me and talk about her little later's great asset to what we're doing she said give me a taxi says check this out so she's got one of those amazon echoes
alexa hang so she's as alexis who's just minutes ski and alexis names as jeffrey john of its key a k a the golden snow also thanks a lot shop shop what have you done that's a layer i love donna she's amazing she's all awesome site that she's over there yeah i mean you know about kind of her history she ran the five original ploy ease of ufc was danas assistant to start out with went on to become vp of event operation so basically you know she got everybody to the event setup hotel at the event ran the crew you know the blueshirts backstage that run the event i think doing it for many years she little burnout on it so went to dana midsummer and says look i don't think i want to do this anymore but i'd really love to do something nelson i've seen kind of what jeff's doing in his program i really to go go over there and work with him and kind of learn you know
he's doing and so dana pulled me into the office and said hey what do you think about this idea and it took me literally half back in to say one hundred percent on board this woman i mean as you probably know is about his attention to detail and passionate about her work as anybody and really my positioning unlike the name the golden snitch is an advocate to our athletes to make sure our athletes are successful under the program not that they fail under the program it's definitely the wrong nickname is just catchy it is unfortunately catchy again i'm a i'm all good with it at a roll off my back but golden snitches victor conte he's the golden snitch right yeah he's actually consider that i can see that 'cause he was a guy who was giving guys steroids you or a guy that was always catching people correct so it's the wrong moniker correct giving them droids and then talking about it after right that's a snitch that's the golden stitch not human
but it's all good i was hoping shaab with you hear gollum up i don't know what i'm up later in the show that i could do anything to him but it be interesting to look at him in the face it would say i'm sorry bro sorry yeah well anyway back to donna she's awesome so i'm super psyched that she's with you so what exactly does she do for you guys again her so when i saturday in the summer i said look your role here is going to make sure that the athletes are so successful under the program and in a program like this there are so many land mines you know whether it be making sure your whereabouts filing is that is on time making sure you saw that knows where your at so they can come do a collection from me at anytime and making sure you make safe how many choices making sure medications you're taking are correct so she works hard for all those things i give you the prime example of what she brings this program so every three months every quarter every single
fleet on the roster is required to file what's called quarterly whereabouts can i pause right here just just so this can be a stand alone if people don't know exactly what you do sure jeff is in charge of making sure that all the ufc athletes are clean and free of performance enhancing substances and it is a huge issue where you came along a huge issue sport and continues to be in other organizations particularly overseas i mean there's just ramp speculation about companies that literally encourage people to take steroids i was always the case with pride in japan that was one of the big things pride in anyway who fought for them many times came on the podcast and literally saying in the contract and like capital letters it says we who will not test you for steroids like they wanted everybody to take steroids i had friends we went to fight over there they told them to take steroids and move up a weight class
it was always an issue in the sport that this was a dirty sport air quotes right but since you've come along and since you guys started instituting this incredibly strict testing we've seen some pretty radical change we've seen some amazing fights and amazing performances and i don't think the performance levels dropped in fact i think it escalated and ella they'd rather which is something that people were really concerned about but one thing that we did see is some people that you suspected of doing stuff their bodies radically changed it was really mean that a meme pre usada and post usada i mean there some comedy memes out there because of it because people's bodies change so radically yes just hanging out the last time i was on we talked about kind of the smell test you know looking at somebody and you know it's difficult to say definitively whether or not you know changes in bodies are due to that or not but you know you can't help but look at some of these pictures before and after you saw i think that's the case
something i always struggle with how do you judge the success of a program you know so you judge it on numbers of positive tests i don't think that's necessarily the case you know maybe maybe you're not catching every maybe there's no one to catch if you judge it on before and after pictures i don't know i mean that could be one factor i like to budget a lot anecdotally you know a big part of my job is getting out and building relationships with our fighters with managers with coaches and just you know chewing on their ear and figuring out what they cnn what they're hearing and almost universally the feedback i get from from them is this is making a big difference you know one thing i with me today and really the coolest piece of data i think i've seen in any anti doping program are some really objective measurable statistics and the ufc anti doping program
so you saw it as the united states anti doping agency there the official anti doping agency of the united states by an act of congress there in charge of all drug testing for us exports back in two thousand fifteen we made the decision to outsource the castration of our program to usada the primary reason being the independence factor you know when you look at all these other professional sports leagues some have better programs and others none really have any independence in the administration that program and with that means is there's no way telling whether or not you know when an athlete is sanctioned is done for business reasons or done for favoritism so in our program no one can say that n with the administration of our program is done for that reason is a truly independent authority it did recently as they went back and they've been exist
since since i think about two thousand and one on the us olympic level they went back and took a look at every single doper i think for steroids everyone was caught for steroids in the existence of the usada program and took a look at each of those athletes biological passports and biological markers and they looked at what was the most common factor for the doper versus you know the non doper and what they determine is what stood out the most was large variance in testosterone excretion in the urine we think but more common sense point of view that kind of sense and that someone using steroids at that time presents a sample their test is probably going to be on the higher end and if they were to catch cooper on and off cycle what happens when you get off steroids is your body suppresses production of testosterone so in that case you're going to see a very low excretion of testosterone so they
looked at that and plotted it out and saw hey every doper has a very large variance and testosterone secretion then what they did is they took all the ufc samples and they plotted them out by core and actually brought a graph along with me and it's some really drastic i think visual evidence of the success and the impact of this program i don't know if you can throw it up take a look at it i'm he is so what what year exactly did you you saw to take over yeah so we can't you sada came into play july of twenty fifteen so if you saw his been in existence for two years so you see here that first quarter quarter three oh two thousand and fifteen decent variance there which means in any given tests an athlete you know was up on an average a little bit thirty i am a little you know in them twenties and then look at as you plot out that graph of that
it's become smaller and smaller and smaller and more in the the medium range as it gets out to you know quarter three of two thousand seventeen that's very interesting you don't you don't this is you don't usually see statistics is the first should have been involved in anti doping world since two thousand and two and i can unequivocally say that this is the strongest visual objective meh verbal evidence of successful program that i've ever seen but one of the things so fascinating about this and this this goes to this coast credit to the ufc one hundred percent is that they decided to do something about this they didn't have to someone coming after that because you know so many people have been caught and someone said hey we're going to put a program on you guys to make sure you're not doping for the ufc said you clean this up and there's only one way one way is to go with the very best testing possible
and the most rigorous the most check in everywhere you go we're going to give you random tests six hundred o'clock in the morning knock on your door like the whole the whole full gamut of tests an the results have been pretty amazing and that alone steps speaks volumes when you see the size of the variance between the the test when you guys we started versus now definitely hate it's a credit two people around so for two to an and dana white that you now made that decision that's a hell of a risky decision but done for all the right reasons you know anybody it contends that you know dana doesn't care about his athletes need look no further than this program this program is a tremendous risk to the company into the bottom line when you're testing athletes three hundred and six five days a year unannounced no predictability of the test is coming there can be some bear a severe consequences and there have been there has several main events there has been i mean us the two hundred the land
arguably the landmark event in the history of the ufc we lose main event the wednesday before ufc two hundred millions if not tens of millions into the marketing of that now the success of the pay per view probably hinges on that great main event between john and and daniel and we lost it three or four days before and that could happen at any given moment now we talked about this before the podcast what you could could not talk about with the current state of john jones investigation so where's it at right now yeah so you know generally we don't talk about ok so how the process works when an athlete test positive you saw i will notify me i usually pick the phone up right away and call dana and let him know and the us
puts out an announcement they say you know in the case of jon jon tested positive and and in competition tests on this date you know more information will be provided at the appropriate time that's generally all we'll talk about now if the athlete chooses talk about you know scenarios of what happened then they are free to do that at point you saw it in the ufc can comment on it so there's been some things talked about in the john case hi john really he had two in tests on july seventh and july eighth before his positive test well i think july 30th which was way in day and deposit test was for the hydro chloral methyltestosterone oral turinabol this is a substance that was used by the e germans regularly in the late 60s and then came to fold a little bit more of what's come out recently amount of russia so
i know you had a bryan fogel on for the icarus movie i think you talked about a little bit about this gregory the head of the the moscow wada laboratory that this drug became kind of part of his protocol with his athletes he then ironically enough developed a test for the long term tablets of the drug previous the detection window of this drug was a couple of days it was a drug that you know even if you run a strict program an athlete may gamble with taking because it had a quick clearance time discovered the long term metabolite test that changed and went from a detected when detection window of a couple days to a detection window of several months and this was widely known you know it it wasn't a secret initially they kept it quiet they went back and retest at some apples and there was a hole in a bunch of positives and then it got out two thousand and thirteen around it there was this new test so right up front you know i
i've said this a while now is would not make a lot of sense for an end visual ufc athlete that new especially a champ contender like jon jones at new this is quite regularly in this program would not make a lot of sense that that would be your have choice if you were intentionally trying to cheat i think it's come out after the fact that you started it another test on john a month or two or a couple months after his positive test and it was negative during that test so that would be indicative that you know prohibited system entered his system or the primitive substance entered his system you know sometime after july ethan would was likely you know a small amount in that it cleared his system pretty quickly you know who knows where it plays out but certainly on the surface of things i have said you know at this point in the game with that
type of information out there it wouldn't indicate intentional use now that could be wrong i don't know that definitively and and we'll see how this play out right now where the process is is john and usada or working closely i'm aware that there was a meeting a week or two ago pretty lengthy meeting which i was told was productive wasn't given details of what productive meant but i think that's an important thing right now and that johns following through with his to retrace all of his steps between that you know just last test and positive test and negative test so the positive test on july 29th of july 30th it's certainly seems like based on what you just said that this is something that was accidentally taken but if you can't prove that something was accidentally taken like you can't nail it down what do you what happens it's difficult
and that's you know that's kind of the nightmare scenario that a lot of you know that an athlete can face and a big role of what don and i do to prevent that from happening to show them what type of care and consideration is needed to make sure you don't get into a scenario like that you know your program like this you have to be careful about everything that's put into your body everything and if you're not there can be you know so there are consequences so yeah see where this plays out i tell you the one thing that i can say about this is you know this is obviously johns second time in the program with testing positive in the first time he went through a pretty lengthy appeal process and there was a publicly issued decision five thousand and sixty pages went through all the evidence that that the independent arbitrators heard and decided on and what they say
definitively in that case was john there was no evidence of john intentionally cheated however you operated with careless reckless disregard so we ended up getting the maximum for that for those substances you tested positive for a year and that for some gas station viagra type shit not well it was actually a couple of anti estrogen drugs but what was shown and what the evidence pointed to was that he took a pill that was manufactured from a website by the name of all american peptide the pill was repo or to be a cialis pill so erectile dysfunction pill that was tainted with these two drugs now the problem with the arbitrator said is if you would have gone to that website the arbitrators did i did you would have seen that that same website offered you know tons of performance enhancing hibbett performance enhancing drugs and the
website said not for human consumption for research purposes only so it really was careless disregard the being said however johns you know second time through the program now the that can sanction this time for you know in anna what type steroid would have you know so starting point potentially have a four year suspension that's a starting point that could be a start point right unless there are mitigating factors now i don't you know again the beauty of this probe times it's not the ufc or not me deciding you know what the sanction is going to be no one can accused us of you know operating for business purposes or favoritism or whatever but that being said you know when we put this pro graham together and figured out you know what sanctioning would look like don't necessarily think that we put up a four year function for
second term offense when the first term offense was shown that that person didn't cheat intentionally just operated with careless disregard so who makes that distinction then you sada sada makes that distinction they you know they have a whole i'm looking at it they compare it to other cases under you know water olympic type umbrella similar cases i will say this that i think we've had a few over sixty positive adverse events in this case and those that have been adjudicated i've been comfortable every time that they made a fair and matson reasonable decision and that's part of my job used to be the eyes and ears for athletes to make sure not only as the program being administered properly and has drank but also that they are being treated fairly and that they had due process so i have all the and in the world however this does come out that it will be the right decision the other really cool thing about the program the transparency the program so you know
won't just be me saying this however it does come out whether it goes to arbitration or well for john and you saw to reach a settlement it'll be well spell doubt about why that sanction was german now you say starting point meaning that it could potentially be more occured so when there's something called aggravating circumstances so more than just knowingly take in the drug life in the drug and lying trying to cover it up taking multiple drug is one trying to hide the other yet you could you could get double the sanction amount so you on a second time anabolic steroid for year this is kind of the starting point you can go lower for mitigating factors you can go higher aggravating factors up to eight years so yeah i mean it would have to require something you know really severe and egregious to get to get up that bad high as any never gotten that hit not in the usc program now what is the biggest hit that
one's ever gotten in the ocean i think thus far it's two years and it was a thing a few people chad mendes comes to mind mendez his was some sort of psoriasis cream or something this was an insulin growth factor one so igf one and did he say we came from a psoriasis cream thinking matt said that yeah that never proven or not i mean nothing and you saw his reasoning or their announcement of why it was two years about you know any type mitigating factor coming from 'cause i and someone said or i didn't really get very deeply into this but i remember reading that he had put some sort of cream on and then that cream was responsible for him testing positive yeah i don't know that's the case i do recall him saying that but you know i in athlete can say anything they want about why it happened if there was something mitigating they are afforded that right to share with usada that look i didn't do this on purpose it
wasn't on the label the cream usually in those instances with evidence does show that bing factors come into play in a reduction in a sanction there wasn't any in that case it was the two years and there have been some guys that have gotten pretty low sentence is like tim means is a good example right tim means did take something that was tainted and you guys or you sada got some of those samples from independence stores they found on things were also tainted yeah ten means to supplement with creatine uh and you know after you tested positive and again this is where donna can i come into play habit you know when athletes test positive we reach out to them right away saying look we're here to help you here help to be had to tell you give us reason not to i do that would ten tim said i'd never heard of the substance jeff i you got believe me i didn't take it so are able start doing retracing steps what have you been taken he sent maine you know maybe
half dozen supplements did some research on them worked reached out to kind of contacts i still have in the in the industry from my law enforcement days and said hey any of these kind of race suspicions and there was one that did company that made some other kind of sketchy products we narrowed in on that one pretty quickly said it to usada too a lot of laboratory tested at sure enough it had the substance in it then what happens is you sada will in dependently procure for some themselves so outside of the kind of touch of the athlete make sure the athletes not contaminating with it for a broken excuse they were able to get there was sealed and unopened and sure enough it it had that substance went and had the same amount of the substance in it that kind of matched up with how much is intent system and when he said he had taken at last so there's a lot of detective work though comes into it and i get i get this question a lot from fighters saying hey supplement
uses a bullshit excuse that you know there's athletes use and stuff and they have supplements in their closet that they know is are tainted and then boom if they tested positive they just have that built in excuse and what i tell them is it it's it goes deeper than that there's literally detect cyantific detective work that's going on from the usada side making sure everything match is making sure independently procure the product making sure what turns up in the delete system based on when they say they were taking it matches exactly the level that's in the product based on you know but cabalism timings so it much more than that night i do have a lot of confidence when you saw this as a it does match that this is you know came from and unknowingly or unintentional ingestion that really is that now with that we in the case like tim means why is he suspended if someone does give him a tainted supplement and he takes it in good faith thinking
it's just creatine right so there strictly liability in the program and you know they look at all the factors so you know create an is a relatively low risk product however the creatine tim took was not third party certified and that you know get a lot of quest it's about man is supplement industry is dangerous and you know this sucks for athletes there's nothing they can do there is some that you can do and it's actually pretty simple to do we talking earlier about about on it company you're you're involved with and you guys third party certified a lot of your product and what that means is you outsource random testing of the product and sampling of the product from descendants companies to make sure they contain no prohibited substances and you know with don and i educate our athletes to as you can go to these third party certificate fishing companies i think you guys use catlins group banned substance control group there's that
there's informed choice there's nsf for sport and you can go to their websites and they have lists of all certified products and there's hundreds of them so there's is no excuse that you can't find as you know ufc athlete products that are too listed in an independently certified is banned substance free and if it were the case it's not saying that it couldn't happen because those companies aren't testing every single bot product but if you're an athlete you take a third already certified product you record it you log it and it turns out to be from that product i think that and you're reaching a level where the mitigating factors maybe do get you down too no sanction you know a public warning or something hey you should use supplements at all type of thing right so his error was just taking something that was not third party corrections is not doing his homework when a company he got the reserve on models offer something that's it which seems like a lot
but in reality most fighters it's really he's really only got about three months off 'cause most fighters after fighting to take a few months off any i will be i mean it seems harsh but there is there is an obligation that fighters need to do their homework and you need to have a bit of a deterrent there to make sure they do it and that's a deterrent now one of the things that i thought was really cool about the ufc performance institute which is just that's how much cool about that place but one of the things that really cool that you guys have a station where an athlete can go in and check any sort of substance any cold medication they're taking anything type in the name of it and it tell you on this like giant tablet whether or not what you taking his band so it's it's a key has so it's the usada kiosk and we have like a little ipad in there and it's between the locker rooms and the recovery room so it's you know you got your hot cool in your pool pool and your sauna in you're cryo and all that stuff so it's a constant reminder as our ass
plates are in that flow between that area 'cause they all walk through there every day that you saw it as a part of this sport that were a clean sport that you have an obligation to check on medication supplements and you have an obligation to file your whereabouts they can also file where bouts at that kia can we get athletes all the time walking down that corridor santosh shit for to tell you sought flew out to las vegas at the pi boom they can get on in a minute or two an update where there that just have a nap they do so so so they can update by app so it's on your phone as well so every quarter athletes are required to get on through a web browser which called the quarterly usada whereabouts filing they usually have to watch an instructional video moe the time reminders about smart supplement choices things like and then they tell you saw to where they're going to be for the next three months and it's time hey i mean i do don and i do the whereabouts filing as well we both say hey who knows going to be next week it alone two three months from
but you make your best guess at it and then all that information you put through the web browse sure is downloaded to your mobile phone app so to azure and change over the next couple of weeks couple of months you can do forty five weekend to one minute updates through your mobile app so the conveniences there there's really no excuse and not letting you saw it and no where you're at there are repercussions if you don't let them know where you're at because you want to avoid somebody you know ducking and dodging a test but i know cowboy had a situation where he was actually in vegas at the fights and they were mad at him 'cause he didn't say that he was going to be in vegas he's like i'm at the fucking fight some right here i'm on tv don and i do everything we can to try to that you saw to know that we know know the fighter has a ufc obligation so whether there are guest fighter on the road weather there added competition were always pass that information along to sada but we all
so tell them that ultimately it's your responsibility as an athlete will try to but you know we can't guarantee it ultimately is going to fall on you if you don't update now the good thing about this as you're afforded a couple more takes under the whereabouts program so it's not until three whereabouts failures in any rolling twelve month period that there can be sanctions because honestly i mean things happen your life everybody's human sometimes you forget i give you the perfect example so again getting back to donna d most attention to detail person that i've ever worked with him at working career she comes over joins kind of our program here we get her signed up for whereabouts she's like this is great like i can talk knowledgeably about how to do this we went out to anaheim for ufc forget what number that was we take look down from anaheim to san diego we went down to the clinic that we were checking out for brain therapy she forgot up
that she was going to san diego she was more than two hours outside of where she was supposed to be where you saw it and knew she was going to be she would have gotten whereabouts failure again one of most responsible people that i've ever been around goes to show that it's challenging and so she has to notify where she's going to be we do it voluntarily just so we can talk knowledgeably to our athletes so this may say this is too hard or you know we say well we do we do it right yeah here's a little trick that i had to remind myself you know e day where i said i'm going to be at things like that now when you have a fighter like holly home i think said she was tested nine times in preparation for this fight against cyborg when when that happens is there a no you can't say when the test is going to happen 'cause it won't be random but there any consideration about the sleep cycle of the fighters yeah and that's you know you saw it and never let's me know when it s is coming i have zero input in term who's being tested and that
is the reality a lot of times they show up five hundred and thirty six in the morning really suck your fighters there is no doubt about it the burden this to your in this is just a urine test or can be blood as well i mean imagine you're dead asleep six in the morning someone's knocking your from sure that's scary shit to begin with you go downstairs you get ready for a fight prepare yourself sleep wise mentale and you gotta have a needle stuck in here to get to draw blood wait till you gotta take a pee could be you know some fighters wait hours think enough attention is being paid to the bar that's on the athletes and the credit they should be getting a holly home i think i saw just a statistic that she's the most tested athlete since the inception of the program think she's around thirty two or thirty three samples that she's provided a match crazy but that i think she should not enough but it is given to her know why do they test her so many times
does she know i haven't heard any suspicions of her being better neither of i and you know i think as you look at the testing statistics and that's another cool about this program i don't know if you know that but all these tests numbers are publicly available so the transparency in this program is unprecedented parallel does it comes to professional sports there's no other professional sport on the planet where you are i as a fan of the ufc could say let me see how much times holly's been tested how many times cyborgs men tested that's unparalleled by if you look at those numbers now occasionally look at them i think those athletes with staying power those athletes that are at the tops of their division have more tests directed to man versus you know athletes of the bottom that are jumping in and out they want to make i think you saw to good use of their resources to make sure with their directing most of those tests those athletes are going to be around for awhile and that holly is on on saturday night at woman's incredible and i think
side probably realizes that too and she's going to be around for awhile and wants to set you know an exam pulling i tell athletes a lot i say hey where this is a badge of honor you know i know it's a burden but man that makes you even more special of an athlete that you take the burn on an embrace it and show the world that you're not only a badass athlete but you're doing this clean now one of the things that i thought was really fascinating about the ufc performance institute is that machine will you lie down and it scans your entire body it shows where your muscle imbalances are like what what are what are all the different details of that thing focuses on yeah i mean we talked about this when he toured it you got to get you got to get some of the personnel from the p i and there they can really talk now julian have you know education is going to bring those guys in there going to come on you go to not only is that as you saw that facility world class but they staffed it with v perfect world class personnel
so the machines called a dexa scan and you know i can't give it the justice that person alcan there but it yet measures bob composition so it'll measure fat hydration levels bone density bone density and how's it how's it doing some type of low level x ray again you got to get those guys in there to describe it specifically but you know i'm i'm sure is that uh it will cover today the whole weight issue being in the proper weight class and weight cutting the both equip and now the personalities in place of the performance institute that there's no excuse for an athlete to not a find their way out right weight class an be you know safely efficiently meet that weight goal when they're fighting everything is in place now there for that now when uh fighter comes to you guys and lies down on that machine and you read their hydration levels and say they're slightly dehydrated and yet they're still
ten pounds above the weight class how do you handle that so we have a director of sports nutrition got my name of clint wattenberg and uh it was a division one all american at cornell went on to wrestle with team usa is actually russell a lot of our fighters have had bad conversations about with guys that wrestled him for clint came here so he's got a ton of pure respect for that super smart guy but yeah he works in a the guy to ask he's you know ivy league educated in sports nutrition and situation like that that he's given advice of the fighters about how the importance of hydration and change that around so that they can meet those goals yeah there's the machine right there what is it called ooh la energy x ray absorption apps four hundred pm tree how do you say that we call it texas
and absorb tiama tree that's like something like someone would say in a cartoon like frank a fake word that measures body composition including lean mass muscle tissue fat mass and bone density measuring and tracking all really is components support for week class sport athletes and helps guide nutrition recommendations fascinating stuff so it just sort of scans over how long is that test take if you have never gone through it or actually never seen it and i gotta get over there and check it out i don't know it was interesting word boris was doing forrest griffin was telling me that uh when he had it done he found out that one of his legs has two dot zero more muscle than the other leg because he had some knee injuries and you really had no idea that's crazy so force is a big part of that performance institute was a big part of you know touring other facilities around the world i think him and j is campbell who is our vp of operations of the pi went to sixty one or sixty two facilities throughout the world and took what they believe were the best parts of these facilities and put 'em all to one and forces
roll there is you know kind of similar to my role in the anti doping program an advocate for our athletes he's there to make sure as a former fighter knowing it works and what doesn't work we're looking at a video this thing right now and it looks like star trek is what does it say anything jimmy very end of pans over and shows what shows up on the screen there's a company like bunches of different data points this is amazing visual i mean i talked to i thought maybe last we can get you out there earlier but you got to come i'm gonna next a next time and certainly come day or two please give me a day early just do that will put you through the whole thing and get you get your dexa scan down your body composition you then have a meeting with clint talk about nutrition and goals maybe go see the physical therapist talk about any issues you have and therapy you need go workout with our strength and conditioning coach those sandoval put you through the the ringers there there and then do a little recovery after that really give full experience yeah
my place is amazing how you guys got it set up and it's it's really a massive resource for fighters that if there's a not a great gyms out there but i don't think i've ever seen one that's that well equipped that you guys have everything give complete strength and conditioning system area then you have a complete area for with heavy bags cage boxing ring and then you have a complete recovery error we have choir machines you have that uh what is that light machine yes low level laser light therapy that look like a giant tanning bed that you get in and i've seen that thing before and what is that supposed to do it supposed to somehow another stimulate yeah flow in the area covered in at the cellular level again you need to get these these pi personally i'm here to explain it in detail because even have sleep pods which i thought was the craziest thing ever so like a fight just has like an hour to chill they can just get in
and recover and relax yeah i mean the idea is you come to the performance since two yeah there there nope and i hear this all the time they see the equipment the purse now that's available to them they see when it's time to unwind that they have a room like this to relax and they see they have free use of the cafeteria and custom cook meals they'd want to leave the place there there all day long francis ngannou lives live there the last six months there's a running joke in the office at frances is constantly walking around office in between workouts like france and we gotta get you in office here somewhere in there what are you doing yeah that's a guy i mean the dude moved to la he saw the place and he moved up and move everything he had i don't think he knew anybody in las vegas or not any friends or because he's just walking around the office all day long was not of the p i'd from france from france yeah from another country said exactly but you know the purpose
example of seeing what that place could do from and that's available to every single fighter on the roster yeah i mean there's doesn't like it and my prediction is that the us he is going to be the hub where most people live the only thing it's wrong there is the altitude is the only thing that's wrong and i know you guys have a hypoxic room where you can stimulate or simulate high altitude twenty two thousand feet but isn't the way you're supposed to do it you're supposed to work at sea level but sleep at high altitude is not how it suppose i think that's what it is what is vegas two thousand five hundred three thousand feet so that even if that's a good thing i didn't even know is that i think it is i thought it was a little i thought it was like sea level 'cause it's like desert now it's got a little bit altitude i know nevada has some good mountain areas though just outside where guys can run and do things like that does the performance institute take
people on any trex or anything like that i don't think we've gotten to that level yet sounds like it would be a good thing to do right could make to red rocks for runs there you go good idea mean i just think that if the high level coaches start moving there and obviously we just lost one of the best robert foulis which is a huge huge loss and what a great guy and so to say i mean universally nicest guy ever i was a great diversity loved very few people that are fight co is it a universally loved and robert really was but vegas has some good coaches but i anticipate more and more gyms moving and relocating there and bring fighters there because i just think high level fighter is going to see place and go how can i recreate this anywhere without fucking millions and millions of dollars i think so i think we love to see that happen it's you know goods low cost relatively low cost of living area so it's a place that's affordable and yeah i think spending overtime with the pi and see what you can do what it can do for you as a ufc athlete and when i was out go ahead
other cool thing and i know dunkin frenchies doctor duncan frenchies rvp of performance there and uh which he explained it a little bit to you about is that not only are we looking to influence the ufc athlete but also influence positively mma the hold the entire sport then what you're seeing is ufc athletes can come in there and use it but they can also bring along with them training partners coaches and you know we're only seven or eight months into this but we've already seen as you know training ideas proper nutrition going back out to the jim's not only across the us but across the world so we definitely hope to be a positive in lawrence throughout all of them mma and really really grow the sport i saw that with bobby green bobby green who is there i brought a couple of trading partners
just a random day wilson hayes was there angela hill was there there's a quite a few schools thing ever i love i'll go over there when i'm in the office multiple times a day just to see who's in there and have that five ten minute conversation with the wilson hayes that he knows me going for the that's cool guy when that vacation or supplement question comes up he's talked me before he knows who i am not afraid to pick up the phone and ask me that question versus this golden snitch character i don't know i don't know who this guy is i can call him or trust him it's a big part of what i do is try to develop those trus thanks to shop for send me back about two it is worth the work of developing that trust it's a nickname that doesn't even make sense it literally doesn't make sense but it's funny is there any other plans to expand or do more things with the institute there is so we didn't show you this but there are other areas upstairs for that very reason they thought about hey technology
a couple of years or maybe new machines or devices to come on the line that we may want so there is additional room for expansion there i talked to you guys and i talked to dunkin about a tank about you guys tanks in there sensory deprivation tanks i think that would be massive i know a lot of football teams are using them now and it's starting to spread x source of magnesium 'cause you're absorbing it through the skin but just for real taxation recuperation i would be fascinated to see if you guys had those what kind of results you genya sounded to me and i was there when you're talking about at the dunkin was open to it and was talking about some research in these yeah i'll state university is conducting some research on the benefits of that so i know there's tanks in vegas now i know there's a place in big so i'm sure whoever runs that tank thing is going to reach out to me so i want to you in touch with them and just have you try it to see if you know just just to get it's a freaky experience and it's really good for your body just everything like in your back will just so just loosen up
as you're essentially zero gravity or floating it just everything sort of pops and loosens up and it's amazing school i want to try to sawyer's a little bit ago little little intimidating or scary and little weird function my wife made me move it out of the basement i had one in the this mentions like people come over they think you're a freak think i'm a freak but the idea behind it i think it's pretty sound and i think there's a lot of benefits for it for fighters far is concentrating on technique as well i think it's an amazing place to focus on strategy being game plans and movement and things along those lines we can visualize one the most amazing things with the sport you know coming over the ufc i call myself a change fan i mean i would follow it a little bit but i'm hook line is into the sport nalan the most room cable thing i find about the sport is the mental game it is the most incredible mental game of any
athlete in any sport in the world when you're walking out into not to gone and facing one of the baddest martial artist in the planet and you know i know you've seen a ton of fights over your career but i think one thing that that i've seen the two and a half years that you may not is that progression through fight week so when i go out these events or events are in vegas some there checking day monday or tuesday at fight five week and please more were on the road on their you know every day in the same hotel i'm watching these guys and girls eat breakfast i'm watching them at the gym prepare try to make weight on friday a more bring them saturday morning with the prospect of the fight ahead of them what an incredible mental journey it is to know that you're about to get into a cage with one of the baddest fighters on the planet and even if you win probably come out you know with a little bit of damage i mean everything to to fight night i mean fight night
these athletes are in a locker room typically with three or four other athletes and sped so if you wanna last athletes on that card one by one your locker mates are walking out then coming back in and you see you know damage on even the ones that win and i'm like other sports where you get out on the field and you warm up and you get a little sense of what the atmosphere is like these athletes walking out you know into the lion stand seeing it for the first time and the sensory overwhelming sensory things that are going on when doing that to be able to control your emotions and and compete against somebody is just absolutely the most incredible thing that i've ever seen i'm so amazed you know very few of these spiders and i talked to a lot of them that doesn't get to them in some way or form that is it talk to force off in about that forces light says some slight two
you've never jumped out of an airplane the whole time you're on the way up saying what the hell am i doing this is crazy and then you know when the bell rings and you start fighting then it kind of it down your back in your your kind of zone but just an incredible mental game this is and i just have so much respect for athletes because of what they have to go through and able to do it time and time again and control those emotions you bring up an important point and mental training is something that a lot of athletes really concentrated on more over the last few years than i think ever that i can recall and a lot of them bring hypnotists and a lot of bringing sport psychologist is there ever any aug of bring that to the performances yeah you know talk to talk briefly with duncan about who has a you know a ton of of resources in the athletic per women's field and so we talked briefly about that but nobody on the staff you know currently it's you know it's
it's kind of a a give and take a look we want to provide all these resources to our athletes but we also want them to retain their end of it's i mean you don't if you notice in the proof institute there's no mma coaches there there's no cycling wrestling coaches jitsu coaches none of that that's for the athlete to bring because there needs to be some level of independence you don't want to train the entire roster you know the same w itself exactly exactly sounds like it would be so early on in my you're here with ufc i saw one of the most incredible things that i've ever seen i've only seen it once but i saw fighter show up fight night outside the locker room and basically say i don't want to go in i don't wanna do this at the arena really and i mean i is just blown away and actually sean shelby went up and thought it was awesome had a
great conversation with the fighter said look you're not feeling anything that everybody doesn't feel every single fighter on the roster fields which you're feeling right now you're just let me get the bestia you are a badass fighter you know you've kicked ass before you've gotten beat bef how you know what's the worst going to happen you're going to you can get beat you're going to live through this thing you're just letting it surface everybody feels what you're feeling and for a second you know if the fighter came back a little bit and then boom left the arena whoa crazy but i think that must enter into the head or the prospect of out of every single person every single fighter that comes the arena i'm sure there's just a little bit of that and on the back of the head and she's an incredible ger i need to see them mentally overcome that amount of stress preflight this is that's why it's so interesting to see a dialect conor who's so relaxed in their it's kind of weird you know like when he does
that rubber armed strut is walking around the cage is kind of like letting you know how he is dealing with is better than you are you know the one fighter that because i pay really close attention you're having seen that early be really close attention just to see that fighter on the walk out like to sit you know pretty close to the cajun look at that fighters eyes and i tend to see a little bit of nervousness and fear and everyone it's probably healthy one person sticks out that i looked at and i saw nothing in this dudes face i saw like a little smirk like he was so high need to be in there and it's the first time i've seen this guy fight justin when he fought michael gaethje once and i remember looking he walked in first and i was on one side and he's on the other side of the cage looking in his eyes and i had never seen him fight before i don't like miss this guy he looks like he's had we need to be in there like this is you know parties at and that fight was incredible well he's great wasn't it he's legit
like crazy he said that getting now doubt by eddie alvarez the greatest thing that ever happened in his life he braids yeah well he's got a mindset and that mindset is i'm coming to go to war and he said it when he got signed he said over the next couple of years i'm going to get knocked out someone's going to knock me out he goes but i'm going to talk a lot of people out and i'm going to break p you know and the only way to stop me to shut me off and he goes on human i can be shut off i want to watch every time every time every time yeah i mean that's an incredible mindset and i don't no if you can teach that i think a lot of people say you can't teach mental strength i don't i think that's horseshit i think you could teach everything i say the mind can be can be trained mean this is what they do in boot camp right i mean it works to varying degrees of success i think the it can be trained it's just a matter
what's your baseline where you coming in at are you a total scaredy cat or are you a pretty stoic rugged dude to begin with an what can they do and maybe maybe you're too's dog maybe you are two non emotional annuar two non vulnerable and you're delusional in your perceptions it's amazing seeing the different ways that different athletes deal with it so saturday night would be perfect example so fight night you saw it as the one doing the testing lot of times fight night there's not a lot going on in my world on there to put out fires in case something does go on i like to watch the fights close just to see those we're talking about here so but occasionally i'll pop in back ok just to make sure everything is going good so i walked back there before the holly cyborg fight and so holly was out in the hallway getting ready if you not to do that long walk for the championship bout and she was there
for probably about ten minutes cameras getting ready and she was doing that holly pacing back and forth jam my hands together fire herself up she did it for a good ten minutes back there and then you see once she gets out in the cage she was the first one in their pacing back and forth for ten minutes right hitting the hands together every between every single round she get off that stool back and forth pacing hidden hands together that's the way she fired herself up carla esparza walkout she walks out with like zero emotion on her face like is this girl ready to go she gets in the cage walks over one side and just stands there doesn't counts around at all but you know how you said both both of them can have so just doing that way dealing with you know yeah different ways was amazing to see it there's a groove that they get into they get they get in a comfort zone they just like this is what i do every time i've compete and everybody is different and you know some people don't like to buy
it's around but i remember when harley did that during the rhonda rowsey fight i remember how i was look at this girls got some legs i was like i'd five before and i knew that she was and some stamina mode we have ten minutes backstage before she walked out the five men after she was in the cage and cyborg was walking out in between every round she probably you know ran a couple miles the equivalent of a couple extra rounds and she was she was fresh at the end and she wasn't beginning tremendous cardio on that girl well jackson's camp you know that michael excuse me greg jackson and mike winkeljohn camp they spend a lot of time working on endurance training and strength and conditioning and they do a lot of hill running you know they have this name is mountain that they run that they all do and just holly's been known for now mister cardio but like i say in the ronda fight her legs the way
she could move yeah i i that's one of things i thought was gonna be a big problem with her with rhonda was like ron is gonna catch her you know like the way she's bouncing and moving i don't thing run it can move like that i'm like watching her bounce in move in that crazy kick boxing so file that she'd had for all those years our ability do back flips and stuff she really athletic shoe different a different level of athlete yeah yeah but the server was just too big too big to ski shuffle too tough showed she showed a lot of skill in that fight i was you know her previous ufc buy shoes is kind of coming out people and mall i thought she was really skillful in this very very patient to too you know a lot of people want to say that she's just a brute but she's not like she's she knows where skills are which is big power and an excellent moitie but you also administered to power the way she delivered it was very skillful very very methodical very professional and there was
a workmanlike really was essentially i talked to somebody in our camp and they wanted to see a little bit more that brute power come right at 'em they thought she was holding globe and maybe a little too skillful but i thought it was great well they want her to stop you know holly but you run into risky getting head kicked sure you know you gotta be real careful with holly holly pull stuff out of our ass sound like you see in the i mean the random if i saw it and obviously the modified she need it's very sneaky she knows how to especially that left high kick man she knows how to sneak that sucker was a great fight love watching that fight yeah now the women's mma talent level has risen and risen an it i mean i remember when it first came on the scene and rhonda was the champ and she was just kind of steamrolling these girls who really didn't belong in the ring with her yeah it has an you know interesting bringing back to the performance institute you know talk with guys a lot over there that what
we're finding out as you need to train a female athlete in a much different manner than you train a male athlete you see a lot of times when female athletes cut weight difficult difficulties they have getting that weight because of mental cycles potentially and you also see and uh the case is a rebound effect where a female will fight get down to wait fight and then bounce way back up you just lose the ability the body's ability to regulate where there cutting down on calories working out like crazy and they're still putting on weight so i mean i think that's something that you'll see the performance into doing is trying to figure out and then knowledgeably disseminate information about how to train the female athlete that they may need a little bit more time off and recovery but we fights than a male athlete will but one thing say time and time again is every time we have a female fight they come to fight and you mc cards that are you know
kind of like in a little bit and you look down alliston okay there comes a female fighting boom turn the car right around because you know inevitably they they give ultimate maximum effort in that's at least what i see there's a lot of that well there's the excuse me the talent level is rising the very hungry and they're they're looking to be that next person they realize like look rhonda rowsey is gone no one is really filled her place and there's some very pie their fighters you know like rose number eunice obviously now is going to be one of the most popular fighters after the knockout if you want to nj check cyborgs usually very popular but there's plenty of room for more and they realize it look this is the time to go for it and i just think that you know the women that get involved in fighting in the first place it's not there's a lot of men that get involved in fighting they're not going to fight after a while but the women that get in and fighting they tend to be crazy like in
a good way you know like these are wild women you know like cats in ghana type characters you know they're just wild and like when you watch them fight mean you're going to see some chaos i mean they're not going to be playing it safe there going to be going for it yet my love that bottom now cat is an interesting example because she was telling me the exact same thing that you were saying that with a lot of women their body spahn's very poorly to the weight cut and then immediately want to gain weight afterwards yeah do you think that that's some sort of and make an evolutionary feature because of their the fact they carry babies and mother need they need fat they also about it freaks out i've definitely thought that sure some sort of response like your body is like hey i don't know what this crazy person is doing but we gotta put some absolutely and that's you know that's something again going back to performance institute that they're they're their diving deep into and clay monberg specially on the nutrition side that you know seeing those intercont profiles after a fight and you know what can you do both and cut back in training and you know through your through your diet to help
control and regulate that an the cat was telling me about a program that you guys were just you were just mentioning briefly in san diego where they're using some sort of magnetic frequencies on fighters that have had brain injuries like what is this yeah well with something that the doctor dunkin french kind of brought into the mix here so previous come into ufc he was director of sports performance university of notre dame in south bend in and they were looking into you know traumatic brain injury in football and possible therapy and they came across a clinic in san diego that was using this therapy in fda approved device it's basically low level magnet therapy in conjunction with that they do some ek gs or reading of the electrical waves in the brain and you know initially were finding that this therapy was bringing some of those readings back together
and i think very early in the process of figuring out whether this can really work or not but you know certainly with the ufc wants to be ahead of the curve in terms of potential therapies out there for you know for in the brain and so yeah cats been going there for a while and you know she just bring some positive results yeah she she told me she got some outstanding results and what's interest 'cause there's been a ton of research an studies done on trans dermal stimulation all these different ways to increase the brain's ability to learn and there was a radio lab podcast on this i think it was called something nine volt see if you could find at nine volt something or another but it basically detailed how they use this for a sniper simulation and what they did he took this woman who is a reporter
sniper simulation games like a video game she scored poorly and then yeah nine volt nirvana thank you jamie and so so then they attach these electrodes to various areas of her head and stimulated her brain with a small charge and she went through the exact same thing and she said it felt like the twenty this went by in two minutes and her score was perfect and this is being echoed throughout like many different people that have done tag on these very and there's a lot of like home hacking where people literally radio lab and making their own setups but i'm here's to see if the ufc is looked into some of these things like something like maybe perhaps there is a way you could stimulate the body's ability to learn certain techniques or like carve pathways by stimulating areas of the brain
that meant another great reason for you to get duncan in here 'cause you can talk real knowledge about this therapy he told me when at the university of notre dame you know they'd have they've had football players that would have migraine headaches for long but i'm that underwent this therapy in a matter of weeks they were they went away madonna and i visited the facility down in san diego they talked about employee is a facility bringing in their kids a kids i had some levels of autism that after this therapy you are more engaging with people they also talked about kids that had test finals coming up the day after they go in for this therapy the night before and get their test score we're improving as a result there was a lot of they deal with a lot of special forces soldiers down in the san diego area that have had dramatic brain injury because of you know i ds and and i've seen some success there so i mean i think some real exciting potential there that again
the ufc wants to be at the forefront of and you know be the first you know to suggest some of these things are athletes and you know potentially even look and getting some of these devices at the p and be able some more athletes there yeah that would be amazing and i think that we're in an interesting time now where because so much research is being put on cte and traumatic brain injuries were looking at petit rachel ways to mitigate those problems and maybe even rehab some of the issues that fighters of having yeah so uh one thing we didn't show you and your tour is uh we now make part of the on boarding process at the pi the c3 logic testing which is this two thousand five hundred and thirty minute neurocognitive yes it came out of the cleveland clinic brain study and it's an ipad based tests it's a mix of memory shape recognition balance you actually in a put the pad on your a belt
you stand on this unstable surface and close your eyes and it basically it gives you measurements or readings after twenty five or thirty minutes and then overtime you can compare those readings if they're declining maybe it's time to take a little bit of time off from from training and fighting if there's being stable then maybe you know you're doing alright the california let it commission requires that for all fights so all fighters in any card in california the wednesday or thursday before the fight goes through the seat the logic testing all of its upload to a cloud so after a period of a couple years fighter have access to some real objective data on you know with the neural cognitive cape abilities are looking like that would be a great way to find out i mean maybe one of the only ways to find out without a fighter to disclosing it whether or not a fighter's been knocked out in camp because
this is a common occurrence that fighters get knocked out in camp in hearts barring and then a week two weeks later have to fight an their ability to take a shot is on sure yeah it's interesting you know often asked about that and comparing it to other sports leagues and the one thing i will say you know with mma now this is excluding things are going on in the gym but in a fight that's regulated by a let a commission i think and that may have some of the most conservative returned to play polacy i know it does of any sport where in if you're an nfl quarterback and you knocked out on a sunday yeah you concussion protocol but they're trying to get you back playing pool so the next sunday or the sunday thereafter which is crazy the big concussion in mma as you know is like a four thousand five hundred and sixty mandatory forty five days no activity sixty days before you fight i mean we've seen suspensions out to six months mandatory medical suspension so and some of them i think are very warranted i mean there's some
brutal knockout where you like alistair overeem and francis in ghana like i don't want to see alistair fight next month you know i mean i don't in here's a question about a guy like alistair i it up one day on a podcast has been stopped or out someone the neighborhood of thirteen times in mma and then three times more in kick boxing what what's the number where you like that's enough yeah i don't know the answer to that i know you talk with alistair and see crazy it's about him that's what's crazy alistair even remotely punching i mean he is not only that he does you seem deterred like it's crazy like he gets knocked out and he's like well we go back to the drawing board and will be better next time i think it's an unknown now but you also look at you know the ufc has been the largest contributor to the cleveland clinic fighter or brain health study so we made i think multi million commitment update once
so yeah we're looking to invest resources into finding out with those answers are definitely and be at the forefront of any innovative therapies that are out there innovative testing it's out there we want to be at the front issue with cte is that is that you really can't test for until after a fighters dead correct but haven't they recently we had a way to test people while they're alive yeah and i've read some of that i've also read that scientists arguing that that you know and that's not right so i don't know where we're at on that yeah because boy it just seems like there i i don't want to it's in it also affects people differently right depending upon what genes they have some people are more predisposed to c t e yeah i am not that's my understanding of it again a lot of unknowns but you know i think that the ufc is shown dedication to contributing to areas where we can find out some of those answers yeah
that you guys recently had mark hunt come to vegas because mark hunt had talked about suffering damage from fights and the ufc said you know it we can just hear him say that we're going to come off this card and he was furious and they said look like we love you don't get it wrong but we we we want you to be safe and you say that you slurring your words and then he changed and said well it's after a few drinks and then went ok well come by and let's give you the full gamut of tech yep as exact would happen and we're always going to act out of an abundance of caution in in a scenario like that and so now he back on the roster and back with a fight schedule in person in february so when a guy says something like that you just kind of have to you the guy says i'm slurring my words and taking too much punishment like okay we got a red flag here you have to write
absolutely i mean that happened i looked back to under remember when cain was going to fight at the end of last year and i think he came out a week or two previous saying man i'm in so much pain from this back issue i'm having to use medical marijuana cbd leading up to this fight the only way i can train i'm going to have this surgery directly after the fight i was actually nevada commission that saw this and said wait a second if you're really in that much pain like that we can't with conscience license you to fight and sure enough they didn't do that and ended up having the surgery and too much spent like a year now yeah he's a guy that is almost too tough for his body or maybe is too tough for his body if you watch kane fight particularly early in his career when he's in his prime you just couldn't leave the amount of endurance at a two hundred and forty pound man can have the just the pace that he
put on guys and you'd see them just drowning in that pace but the only way you get i mean you have to have some physical gifts card vascular lee and i think kane will admit that he has some some natural cardio but unbelievable work ethic and mental toughness and that mental toughness also makes you push through injuries and pushing through injuries is how injuries become chronic and that's how injuries become unmanageable and require surgery i mean with no have amount was an athlete and went through my share of injuries but you know i played basketball and ran track and in in those sports you know depending on your injury you can control i think your exposure and protect your body i mean how do you do that in fighting you can't you can't you can't in certain positions that you're not you're going to be in and if you're not completely healthy you're going to be probably exposed from the only thing you can do is drill
if you really injured and you have a good a paul are good training partner you can drill on certain things and say hey man you just can't touch my shoulder but there's no way you can spar and this no way you can really prepare for a fight without really hard training and hard training with with injuries is virtually impossible with some injuries you know i mean some of you can work around is ways to figure a way around things and that's one of the things that i've found is really interesting also about the ufc performance institute is there's a lot of different things that you guys have devised or you know you guys are brought in and implemented that other people have devised to help people with injuries that are trying to still train hard like that gravity treadmill thing yeah that's enough and our altitude chamber so you strap that around you and you're getting not you know i don't know what the ratio is too you know if your true weight to what in a typist i should put it on your body but it's much less than going out and running on regular treadmill and street now
so the underwater treadmill what you saw yeah so that was handled hill was on that yes he was and i was like what's electors like it's weird yeah it's like it's like it just seems if the floors moving you gotta check keep up with it you know basically it's a rising floor so you rise up to the top you step on it and then it drops down it works like a regular treadmill because you're because you're underwater put in less stress on obviously or lower extremities and if you notice also well there's cameras underwater with the tv the screen right in front of the the person using an idea idea there is if you have an ankle injury or a knee injury you take a look at how foots coming down are you favoring it and what's your your gate looking like so really cool piece of equip connor was using that quite a bit in the run up to to floyd you put a lot of stuff out there on social media on that thing i think you liked it yeah well he's got a bum knee right he's going to need except that his had he had some issues with in the past so there is there it is there's
dunkin french off there to the right thing just drops you down and then you run on that thing yeah man i'm not one hundred percent sold on that to be honest but that's why you should come out and get it get on it i mean i'm sure it's difficult but i think that like actually carrying your weight and running on hills there's a way to go probably now look if you're coming off an acl surgery and you know your taking baby steps to get back to running its probably there otherwise if you're healthy and you know training for a fight come up in a couple of weeks i don't know that's necessary equipment for you he's a guy that i'm puzzled by conor obviously i'm a gigantic fan but man his cardio it seems like there's a thing there there's something there whether it's the style that he fights the explosive sprinting style that he fights is unsustainable you know or whether or not there seems to be some sort of an issue that needs to be addressed some much more radical approach to strength and conditioning and i would
love to see the guys that performance institute try to tackle that and try to figure out when i'm sure the run go to max's on them but he he did most of his camp there but you know he had his own team around him that was kind of directing him but in his defense this is a very quick camp sure you're getting ready for twelve round fight with the greatest fighter of all time in boxing jesus christ like six or seven weeks i think employed knew what he was doing i'll tell you incredible things about that and there wasn't a lot said about it going back to kind of my world anti doping world so floyd does this for all his fights he basically hires you solder to do testing it's not it's not the same as a ufc program where your subject testing year round in boxing once the fight is made sodded then comes in and does collecting so depends on how far out the fight was made but turn floyd sign that contract was it seven weeks out maybe they were each tested sixteen times in that seven weeks and i guarantee you they are the two
most tested athletes in that peer short period time ever in the history of anti doping so not only was incredibly cool event but i incredibly clean cool and clean for the fans and know that you know how out of the way those two guys went to ensure that that fight was fair and clean that is a male enough credit for that it's too bad there's not two performance institute so you could have one right next to each other opponents could train at very you know like you could film things at the performance institute in at a level first person was showing me how the octagon is set up with three hundred and sixty degree cameras and you could literally film and then rotate angles up down you can can move around and show oh well you're throwing this punch your back foot is coming off the ground when you're leaning to your left you're dropping your hand
it's like the john madden telestrator who stop action and draw on that huge big screen next to the octagon around exactly when floyd was show or excuse me when that was showing me how you can move it around i was like this is insane like this what a tool this is for technique development it really i think we're at the infancy of these coaches coming in figuring out how they can use these things you sent that they can benefit or flowers i mean there it is right there yeah this thing there is my tour or did somebody put that up on these fucking weirdo already they put it up i didn't put this uh oh yeah i put it on my instagram stories but i didn't put it on youtube somebody put it on youtube here so what what force was showing me was how they can pause it in slow mo and back it up and then change angles and that all the writers sparring sessions are filmed they filmed from an overhead their film from the sides and there's cam is all around the octagon i mean it's just what a facility man
yeah i mean i really think we talked about this this is bringing this sport the whole new level yeah this is going to be your first test tube yeah you know you talked about it wouldn't it be nice to have two opponents work side by side the the p i has a capability i mean as you saw it's it's set up specifically so you have certain things downstairs and certain things up stairs so you have to schedule so steep bass says hey man i'll come out and uses it is it is open to steep a we could schedule it so steep is downstairs doing a strength and conditioning will frances up stairs it's a lot of what forced does for course you know it could be the intermediary to make sure francisco not one door steve brown's and another never run into themselves but that that's going to take a moment they are there but yeah but what i know if i was the day i would not want to be doing strength conditioning and in between sets just like have you you're in here frances hitting the heavy bag and scaring everybody
you use data you tried that punch this machine yeah he's got the world record punch on that there's what it is is like for folks it's a pad it's adjustable it moves up and down and you punch it and not only did he break the world record he broke it by several one thousand per square inch i think is reading and i don't know what the reading is was a hundred and twenty nine thousand something and into his territory this you had with a couple of times man i thought you were hitting pretty hard now what did you register like a thirty five or forty thousand i got forty six is my hardest one to hurt man you gotta put moves on to do that too i would imagine that being wrapped up and that's an arg that i've had many times it comes to me in general i like how you can angle it so you can throw an uppercut as well that's an arg that i've had for me in general i think it's weird that we the allowed to elbow with no power
knee with no pad kick with no pad on the shin but the knuckles are protected and i think that it really probably allows people to deliver more damage with the knuckles padded i don't think padded knuckles helps your opponent as much as it helps you and especially wrist protection like when i was trying to punch that thing with just my bare hands which stupid especially when you haven't warmed up right but you realize like your wrist moves around you slam into that thing if you're hitting it hard your wrist moves around but that's the case when you're punching a person too give me much more precise with where you're targeting and what you're hitting you can't hit forehead kids and elbows you break your hand like very easily now wonder it just it seems barbaric to people to fight bear uncle which to me is kind of crazy 'cause you're kicking like you you're shining
people in the head like i don't understand like we have this weird sort of childish view of like what should and shouldn't be elbows are some of the hardest you can just do that with an l and it doesn't hurt at all you know all your knees your shins those guys that spire move ty for years and years there shins develop justification all over the top where they can kick bass that's like there's trees yeah there's a great one of a bull cow kicking a banana tree just go and create and he's one of the greatest tie fighters of all time but he's he's chopping at this banana tree cuts in having like jesus like how is ok that that guy can kick someone in the face with that but you have to have pads here it is right here give me some volume on this
breaking a fucking tree and shit now it is bare knuckle will tell you that as insane fuck getting hit in the face with that see the difference like that's hard bone no padding why do you have depending on your knuckles but you don't have to have it on your chins and your knees and your elbows so that seems to me to be a silly way of approaching yeah shut up everything i mean maybe add up everything then people get mad like we're who is vine sport i think do you go the other way i think you don't pad up anything i think you pad up your dick and that's it that's what i think pad upper teeth pad up your dick let her rip i've really they should fight bare knuckle i just don't think it makes any sense whatsoever especially considering the fact that i pokes one of the major considerations right you're not going to mitigate that with those gloves you just yeah you know and yes they did
some sort of a new design where the gloves are much more curled in the ipod so it can be an issue of the the exact same issue if you had bare knuckle well yeah i mean now you can take away with a new unified rules which ironically enough aren't unified yeah i'm so we go from commission the commission and bell fighter we have to and for in the fight week what are the rules here that's so unfair to these fighters that in our training and developing that instinct to some of these rules but by the new unified rules which are unified anybody's extending the fingers of the referee has to warn them first but they continue to do that a point can be taken away i think they should take a point every time a guy gets poked mia and my my thought processes even if it's unintentional the damage has been done and if uh if you can see it on replay legitimate i poke and you see the guy wins like what we've seen many many times that guy's compromised and i think that it's only fair that up
be taken away even if it was unintentional what's like kicking a down fighter two that you know you have to show intent to take a point away well how is the referee you're going to get in the head of a fighter to say whether or not that was intentional around it should almost be i think that if it's done a points taken away i agree remove the intent from it 'cause the damage is already done that point it doesn't matter whether or not it's intentional i mean we're not in the blame on the fighter it just it happened it's one of the unfortunate things but the fighter that got hit is the one who suffers the consequences of it there's no way it should be an even exchange like oh i'm sorry i accidentaly need your eye socket in you know point taken and now you can't go on that to me sounds i think there's room to alter the rules and i mean i've beating a dead horse with my bare knuckle things i've talking about that for years 'cause i just think people have greatly exaggerated perception of the effectiveness of punching people in the face and i think that great
perception is due to the fact they wrapped their hands you rap up your wrists and your wrist and your hand becomes a cast where it's not bending at all i mean you get deep in there with athletic tape and gauze and they cover the knuckles and everything about it and you could just fucking blast something with that but when you just have just your hands it feels very delicate tell people you should punch the bag occasionally at least bare knuckle just go and punch the bag and you realize you can really hit it nearly it's hard that's interesting i just think that we have but what you can't take the shit out of your ankles right right i mean we've stopped fighters from walking into the octagon with fully tie taped up goals you know yeah for some commissions allow light tape and then a neoprene sleeve over it others say it now yeah again uniformity is again yeah you know what talk about uniformity kind of bring it back to the anti doping world this is a big point of contention i have
athletic commissions really really frustrated and that's the marijuana rules and if you have ci thought so he follows the water rules world anti doping agency kind of sets the world standard they have scientists that study these drugs and determine a is some performance enhancing safety issue and over last couple of years they rise they raise the marijuana threshold used to be fifteen nanograms per milliliter now must succeed one hundred and fifty nanograms per milliliter body metabolizes differently but you know from scientists that i've talked about the ingestion of marijuana or thc psychoactive ingredient has to be pretty damn close to that collection to exceed one hundred and fifty nanograms per milliliter which means you literally almost have to be high the day much so if
just takes a day or two off their their most like you know we should and i suggest longer than that just because you never know how different people metabolize things differently as you're cutting weight whether you're releasing some from your fat cells i don't know i would suggest you know several weeks but the reality is it could be a lot closer than that we're running into several athletic commissions tech being one near being another we have probably the most extreme one last month in michigan that have lower thresholds texas in new york have thirty five or fifty again where we just came from has a no tolerance policy marijuana so any measurable amount of thc would cause a positive test and we lobbied him hard and it patient of our event they're saying do you realize this means i mean a fighter could walk through a cloud of secondhand smoke you know on the
right away in our fight an is going to show up a measurable amount and you're going to have fighter could win a championship on that and then you're going to take that championship away and overturn the wind we had in texas a couple wins overturned for threshold which i think we're a little bit i think thirty five through thirty five or fifty was there but there were slightly over that well under the you know establish world standard and now i think these athletic commissions gotta take a serious look at you know bringing those into uniformity you have in the us you have certain states now where it's legal medically and recreationally but you know arguably federally still illegal but you have some countries where it's completely legal and you have doctors prescribing this for pain control or stress or anxiety and now a commission like michigan one of those fighters from one of these countries it is completely legally doing it under the care of a doctor and
in lieu of doing a synthetic drug like an opioid or a xanax or something like that common sense would tell you it's much healthier and safer to do that now you're setting up this barrier that you know could negatively affect a fighters career they have any discernible amount in their system and and you know not only from the u slide rules but from from an anti doping marijuana's perspective to these commissions have got to come together and realize what the white thing to do is and stop you know a lot of instances stop governing or policing just because you can yeah we ran into that with the whole court case anything in texas i don't know if you familiar with that yeah just what happened so courtney we fought in texas had a great win against ask a regular i think was probably the defining moment of her career she look really really good couple weeks later i was actually at our vet stockholm sweden sweden was vividly on
friday night i got a call from her and i can't even understand what she's saying she's just crying on can probably saying jeff you know what is going on i didn't understand what happens to slow down would happen so there stuff on the internet about me testing positive i've never even thought about using prohibited substance i'm super careful about what i use so i said ok let me check into it so i called a guy on the texas commission i said hey what's going on you know with this courtney casey thing and he tells me yeah she tested did we just announced it and i said for what t e ratio was elev it was over four to one and you know knowing with that measurement means i've said to explain when it yeah so e t as testosterone e is at b testosterone and every human being male and female have on average much of one to one ratio naturally occuring in them
like steroids it can have a tendency to raise that ratio where the he becomes higher than the e however would anti doping has found out and evolved into the last few years that specially mildly elevated ratios sometime there are natural reasons for that happening special females the females on birth control which is we now legal medication and so what you do now in anti doping when you have an elevated te ratio you go to a backup test that back of ten this is called an isotope ratio mass spectrometry irms test and that reads carbon atom in the testosterone in a sample determine whether or not it's plant base which would mean a synthetic or it snatch lee occuring because testosterone is synthesized through wild yams great so that's how they find out this plant based that's correct so texas tells me hey her ratio it was a little bit higher than a four to one that means she's positive and
they tell me we're just following your guys rules i tell the guy that's not guy rules i go you just announced a positive test for this girl and hey you know maybe we did do something i don't know but you're supposed to run the back test for us and it was basically told me well it was a friday as well our offices closed monday will get back to you on tuesday really there after it was radio silent so we were working with courtney worked with you saw closely and you saw usada stepped in said absolutely absolutely that is wrong we're to go back and look at her biological profile and and will share that with texas will take a look at these te readings over the time of the samples that she submitted sure enough most the samples were mildly elevated and sure enough if you saw did the right thing and they went and did that backup testing every time they did it she was negative so they
it out to texas said hey will share this information with you in our historical records girl does have a naturally occur mildly elevated te ratio through a several week process of figuring out hey is the some of that sample remaining because if there is texas you have an obligation to go ahead and do this backup testing on it took in a number of weeks were poor courtney was in limbo and and finally dana put him on blast basically said texas commission shit together we're not coming back there and we got ahold of that remaining sample her b sample had it tested out a lot of pretorian was negative on the iram now crazy is that putting someone on blast works why you would think that that's just know an ego thing like people were bitchy statue you're going to succumb to that but yeah sometimes that's what it takes
some do the right thing it does so so this poor girl is living with the fact that she's labeled as a cheater forever two to three months donned about how it will be yeah but i was always so it's one of those things that once someone says your steroid cheater the well she talked i mean she lived she lives on maui so small community she talked about going to the store and people pointing at her talk about about her she talked about she coach in a gym their coaches kids about parents you know not wanting her to coach their kids when this was in late how many of those people heard that she was exonerated head on page one batak retraction on the back page right ob pays attention right and you know have her perform instance fun detroit right yes was not a great performance for her and i you can't help but wonder if that had affected her you know over those last couple months i think that was just stylistic i just think the way she matched up with felice herrig was just those two bulldogs just clashing heads of each other they just couldn't get anything done
could be i mean that's again going back to the mental game a tremendous amount of stress to carry with yourself through you know these last six so months well i hope she gets passed out 'cause she's a lot of fun she she is a like a lot and i got to tell you man one of the most satisfying things again going back to the golden snitch thing really my role here is is an advocate someone who looks out for athletes in situations like that there's been we put this program together these sort of program it was it's it's unprecedented there's no other professional sport that has the comprehensiveness of the program there's also no other professional sport that's quite put together like the ufc what is in terms of you have individual athletes that you know our are against each other it's not a team sport worth one person test positive you have another person you know step on in so a lot of what i've done over those first couple years just take a look at you know hey we took we think was a pretty
shot at the rules to begin with but look and see how those rules played themselves out as time went on and after about a year and a half there were a couple of instances where i saw hey this isn't quite fair to an athlete we need to change that we did so after a year and a half there was a couple rules that we change the first one is funny story behind this too was i don't remember when nate fought conor i think the back in time he goes to the press conference after it takes out of a pen remember that and someone asked him what he was doing and said he was with was cbd an at the time the rule was the in competition period where cbd was prohibited lasted until four hours after the conclusion of the fight and he was clearly within that time period will you sada contacted me and said hey you know technically nate was in violation of this and i said hey look this was not the kind of the rule this is you know and they never indicated that they were going to sanction him but i made it clear
explains he believed it for anybody that might not know what we're talking about sure so cb days part of the you know the marijuana plant but is not cycle active part of it i know a lot of our fighters anecdotally use it for anti planetary purposes i think i may have you ever used it or what other benefit anxiety it's it's great for people that are under stress it actually has a great response for that i know a lot of people that use it just for anxiety but anti information is is a big one that's the big one people use it for people with arthritis love it yeah again comparing to natural plant derived product versus synthetic you know not steroidal anti inflammatory advils tylenols can be con yeah probably common sense would in addition of science would say that cbd is maybe a little bit healthier for you never less it was prohibited in competition is it still no so that
is actually a rule change the water limited list which we followed took a completely off the prohibited start the main two thousand and eighteen so that's great so all these athletes could just take cbd the entire time the training there's no it's obviously there's no performance benefit there's no psychoactive effect it just reduces inflammation and it doesn't in natural way way healthier was the case before they could do it in training was only prohibited in competition so weigh in day and fight day now it's completely been taken off the list and it's ok to use it anytime that's fantastic that's fantastic so it was good so but we identified a prob with with the rules in that when nate finish that that fight with conor you usada came to the post fight medical tent that we need to make a collection from you and i don't know whether was blood or urine but they got a sample from him he then went to press conference after and was on took the cbd what i said is look you can't punish him you have the sample that shows what was in his system yes cbd was prohibited in competition
you have a sample to show whether or not he was using it right it's clear that you know he was using it after the fight we just put those extra four hours in there why with the thought of if a fighter finishes right and somehow you saw it is not able to get to him it gets in the ambulance right away goes to the hospital you increase that no just in case they can't get them come to find out so we started put in this program together you saw it can always get to that fighter after if they're transported they can hop in the ambulance with them it wasn't an issue where we needed those extra four months so we change that rule an now basically the rule is the in competition period ends with a collection immediately after the fight or you know you saw it has a reasonable amount of time after the fight so the funny thing is after we change this rule nate and nick diaz come to a fight there sitting called the zoo section you know kind of danish section right there behind dana stable so i go over to nick and nate i say hey nate man hey we change
that rule you know the whole cbd thing and actually we kind of refer to it as the nate diaz rule and in the diaz brothers ratified i mean it's pandemonium in chaos everybody's yelling their name and i literally i'm like at the demon register with them he didn't look at me he was looking somewhere else so about a month later nate i see among and that it was in vegas i mean the kind of walk out ten and here comes nate so he sees he comes over maine gives me a kind of bro hug what's up with yancy medeiros and so you can see and i start talking and nancy and being just an unbelievably entertaining fighter is one of the best dudes on the roster great guy so i'm talking to gansey all sudden nacos hf man tell yancy about my you cite a rule got a sata rule named after me dog and so i thought man you're doing something right when they tia's is like excited about
changing the solder role right yeah that is a that is a very good rule i'm real excited about that what what's the story with neck he can't fight is he still have like some sort of a so yeah yes the parent will will neck was our first fire they ran into the where abouts issues so he got three whereabouts failures in a rolling twelve month so he's going through that process you know it's a tough because i don't i think it does i think it does i mean we've been outside and with him over the last couple of months and talking about trying to resolve this whereabouts issue i mean the unfortunate thing there is look the whereabouts fail sanctions are meant to catch people that are cheating and trying to avoid testing and i just think testing lifestyle led to those three kind of where about it's not that he was trying to avoid testing just make being nick we're trying yeah we're trying to work through that he you know he put he trust certain individuals to do his whereabouts for him i think is what happened overtime in those individuals would come in and out of his life and
kind of unbeknownst to him that he was missing a lot of these things never less you know that again there's strict liability here and is currently under sanction but we're hoping to resolve that pretty quick now last time we you were on you talked about this new potential faster when that was derived from animals and that they there might be a way that people could take this stuff and go undetected yeah i haven't heard much about that since then was it just a theoretical so now it's out there it's real but you know again some of the things that to combat that are the biological passport program where you're looking over time somebody is te ratio and even though that you know won't trigger a positive on the isotope ratio mass spectrometry if you see wild variances and te ratios overtime that could potentially trigger
would there be a way timber violation sorry with the beard way to mitigate that biological passport thing by making a specific time that you injected every day and doing it on a regular basis like instead of i know it was one of the ways that some fighters have gotten caught is that they knew they were going to be in vegas or something for a long period of time so they couldn't take any maybe would take it twice a week so they doubled their dose and took it into one shot and then they got hit with a random and then it showed that they had this massive yeah it's a potential i mean you know someone who has the resources and sophisticated and somebody has some who's educated in chemistry it step the cat and mouse game anti doping and you know fogel talked about that when he was on here i mean the the premise vigorous initially was right he was going to show that that anti doping doesn't work and it's actually something i was i watched your podcast with them and watch the movie as well and finished
yeah i was a little bit turned off on that premise 'cause you gave he gave the examples of armstrong marian jones is it look anti doping just doesn't work and i'm going to go out and prove that that doesn't mean he says if both those people got bust that's right that's a reality but look how they did they got busted through the investigative element of anti doping and that's what something that was learned and came out of i think the investigations i was involved in an all used does this water does this the drug thing is not enough you know drug test is necessity you need to have that but you also need to have a strong investigative element you actual liaison and usada does this with law enforcement throughout the world so they if you can't catch somebody because they're sophisticated in the techniques are using you know maybe you catch through you know performance or other investigative resources pressure exactly now that document
three blew my mind it was incredible for people who haven't seen it it's on netflix is called a caress it's by brian full goal in the documentary the premise was he will the guy who is a cyclist and decided to compete in a race first clean and then come back do it again under the assistance of a guy who is an expert in anti dope bring that showed him what's the stuff that you should take along the line he makes friends with this guy gregory how do you say his last name redshank off something like that and during this time period it's discovered that the entire soviet olympic team is on steroids and that they cheated during the games at sochi and he explains how they did it and then the investigation comes down the guy has to flee russia and then he comes to america it goes under protective custody in bryan fogel just you talk about like just stepped in shit holy smokes that he come across on many of the awesome job amazing on the story and this gray
guy macon and kind of the sympathetic character yet he was the kind of the evil villain that was doing all this over in russia is just incredible a movie the one thing that didn't cover too much in the movie it was a little bit disappointed who really the true heroes were of that whole thing so there was a husband and wife couple but alley and julia step nova and and julia was an eight hundred meter runner for russia and but al i actually work for rosada the rush an anti doping organization as a drug collecting officer they were the ones basically that caused this german documentary to come out exposing what gregory was doing and then at that point of time and the heat came on gregory because this information was out there and he was either forced to stay there and likely be you know tested and put the blame on or flee to us it was dealt with very briefly in that movie but those two you know i think were the true heroes because you know they just did
this 'cause it was the right thing to do great we did it you know obviously with a lot of self preservation in mind and that he had one of two choices either take off and come clean or stay there and face the consequences but never last man fogel did i thought an awesome job in that movie is just an incredible readable story and it's it's really tough i'm sure olympic athletes to say god man this is what what we're up against when you're talking about state sponsored doping and the kgb being involved there's almost a sense of hopelessness out there that you know how am i ever know that as a clean athlete you know my rights are going to be protected again going back to what we're doing with the ufc the beauty of what we're doing is you never see that because you have an independent authority usada who's operating and administering our program so unlike the russian government where they have interest of russian athletes you know doing well and the gold medals you saw dick
you know in a sense give a crap about you know who's being who's being caught isn't yeah so one of the things that came up in the film that was really disturbing was the collusion between water and the ioc and that they really it was in their best interest to not sanction russia yeah and it's a caught you have people sitting still do on the on the water board and on the ioc board so there's there's a conflict of interest is water is going to come in and say hey this was clearly states by sure doping we're going to exclude russia from the olympics for the next you know on however many years well that's get to the ioc cuz ioc's getting money from these television networks putting on the games in solder in you know tokyo coming up so you know conflict of in there you saw it as a non profit organization so the ufc yes the ufc does pay them to administer our program but it's not lining
pockets of anybody there ceos not making more money because the ufc's here they maybe have a few more personnel to administer the program but you know if we go away you saw this an existence are still doing olympic testing and you know nobody's pot books are hurting yeah that independence i think is critical and that's something that you brought up earlier i think that's so awesome and you know what a massive credit to the ufc they decided to do it this way and not do it in house not just take on your protocol it occurs to do that and it takes a real commitment to try to clean up the sport one of the things that was really weird was like they ban and some some teams from russia like not all the sports but the sports they banned were like nobody gives a fuck about what the sports were i think in reality we could find out what they banned they were gonna be and the entire team but the outrage and that was so strong and then they realize the economic impact of that would be literally in the billions of dollars but i think they have banned the track and field team from
from real game which is pretty significant track and field in a pretty big olympic sport there was a new weather here russia banned from winter olympics but clean athletes can compete so this is new right asha athletes good made a little bigger for my shitty us russia has been banned from the two thousand eighteen winter olympics in south korea over the country systematic manipulation of anti doping rules however russian athletes who can provide proof that they are clean will be invited and quotes to compete in say that pyeongchang the international olympic committee said tuesday so that's fascinating so they'll be litter be competing under the olympic flag which is like poop it's most wide ranging punishment ever meted out by the ioc in apart dissipating nation let alone a powerhouse of the olympic movement yeah i mean you're competing in the olympic
flag but everybody still going to know the commentators are going still going to say the russian athlete competing in the olympic flag but that's bizarre right competing is this unprecedented someone competing under the olympic flag i'm not sure whether it's happened before not man them before has it i'm pretty sure member just random people they might not have had a country to perform or their whole country might not have sent them but they were going to qualify or something wow crazy but there was also certain teams that were kicked out of certain gold medals that were ascended but that was the other thing i thought was really interesting about usadas protocol is that they freeze samples so just in case the testing improves in the future yeah is used to turn again there's no denying it's a cat and mouse game going on out there but a deterrent is that it's not all of them but certain samples can be frozen up to ten years and as
new test come online like the long term metabolite test that gregory developed after five six years they may go back in in a retest those samples and you know we go out and edgecator athletes i tell him look maybe you're not in the ufc anymore of your legacies around forever and you know that's a mirror legacy forever and it's all about about creating that my job i work for the ufc my job is not hey let's see how many athletes we can catch my job is to try to get out there educate develop relationships and create that deterrent saying look you don't want to do this it's going to catch you eventually if you're going to do something i'll give you free resource and bit of knowledge i have to make sure you're successful under the program but success in my eyes is very few positive tests i don't you know right on equate the program was success but as we've had you know sixty or so positives overtime i'd love to see you know and see more of those graphs showing those you know comma
markers of a of a deal per come more into line right you're not in the position of a detective or a prosecutor anymore your position is now an athlete liaison it is a it's a much different role but it's a role i'd really really enjoy it's probably a lot less stressful definitely alot stressful lot less stressful and you know dana says it all the time the importance level in the let's see and mma is off the charts i still have a strong belief in ethics and sports and belief sports are so good for kids and teaching them life lesson is a trans send sports my i have three daughters that played sports growing up cup i'm still do in and i know when they get out into the real world network environment there's no they can't handle 'cause they've already handled it in sports they run up again coach is an asshole they run up against teammates that are selfish they've had great you know occurrences when they've worked well as a team all of that going to come into play to help them in their lives and when you introduce something and something is so pure and good that's
breaking the rules that short term mostly long term is not healthy for you sports is about to be you know healthy for you and at some level especially the way these performs dancing drugs are used or not really being used in a healthy healthy manner and yeah but i feel i feel very strongly in very positive about what we're doing in the roll down playing here well it's interesting that the ufc unlike a lot of sports the history is pretty transparent and history of doping is also pretty transparent like everybody really aware of what the wild these days were like i mean it's every people talk about they laugh about it it's sort of it's not a secret at all particular as we're saying about pride but you know i think that ultimately what sports should be about it should be about effort skill determination focus discipline and
so the lessons that you could pass on not who has the best pharmacist not you know not who is the best team of scientists that can hide the results better and it's one of the more disturbing things about icarus or or any of these other thing they have shown that you know there's systematic anti doping or doping or state sponsored doping it's just it distorts the whole thing like what a victory is or why you've got some ass these are probably would want anyway if everyone who is clean they might have been the best athlete anyway and they could have won floyd landis told me told me that all the time about lance he said that dude alice asked bicycle rider ever and take away all the drugs that were taken in the sport he would win the best writer ever he had something going on there but the reality was everybody was using something then that's fucked up sport i think we talked about this last time but i really people are surprised to hear this but
i had a lot of compassion and understanding for a lot of these dopers after they told me their stories i mean you're young kid vulnerable kid that you know wasn't really worldly that all you're in a teenage life you aspire to go over to europe and get on a bike and compete in the awesome races and all of a sudden you're over there dropped off in a coach which in a room says you want to stay here kid here's the program that were on i heard one i heard a dozen of those stories grown men crying retelling those stories so yeah i mean feel good about changing the culture in this sport radically yeah i mean i would love to have a podcast with you and lance sit down together and discuss this now that the duck it's kind of settled and you know he's been pretty open about and transparent about the whole process himself yeah i mean i think the difference the difference that he has with everybody else's and again this is back to full goals contention that they didn't catch lance if you look
back at his history and they did actually you know ninety nine i think he had a corticosteroid positive in two thousand and one i think he had a test that showed high likelihood of epl use it wasn't followed on but what he did is it became very powerful in the sport and the international cycling union was was corrupt and basically use that power and wield it covered up a lot of those tests and the crazy thing about combat sports is that we're not just talking about crossing the finish line quicker we're talking about the ability to over more damage on your opponent and that's why it's so critical to people fight clean whole new level it's a completely different thing is just really there's no comparison now let's get into we we briefly touched on weight cutting by
i know that the ufc is recognized that there's a a real issue and what steps have we taken into try to mitigate the problems that are caused by weight cutting yeah it is interesting in other one of the reasons why i love the performance institute in the staff that we have there and that before them stem from the usada program where under the water code you ban the use of ivs and so because i was kind of the point person obviously explain why my vis our problem now in a goes back to the to the cyclist who were using ivies to basically flush their system of drugs to manipulate their bicycle biological passport so if there's blood doping or using a po and they would have a tendency to lower those and normalize those biological passport levels and so a lot of learn that through some of the investigations that you know they were conducted and determine that ivy use in excess of fifty mls every six hours will be prohibited
so when we announced that we were adopting the water prohibited list and prohibited methods there was some some blowback within the ufc community saying hey these things are used regularly because fighters are pushing themselves to the edge to make weight and you understand what you're doing here you're going to put fighters and unsafe positions where they're going to get in and not be re hydrated so we took a look at that and spoke with you saw it and he said hey you know maybe we should you know slowly roll out the ivy band so we actually delayed that by three months the program went into effect july first and we instituted the i'd be ban october first so we had three months of getting fighters prepared for educating them why the orban nevertheless i mean real quickly the whole great cutting issue came kind of into my plate and while i wasn't an expert in it i had to get out and talk to a lot of fighters camps coaches about ivs and give them you know
it is to read hydrating the right way and so i not being expert myself i reached out to what i found were for experts in the world a certain guy by name a doctor robert kenefick who is ap hd exercise physiologists works at the us army research institute of environmental medison study environmental effects on soldiers his expertise being russian soldiers in the middle east that are searching for hours days appanna time run out of water d hi great themselves how do we get these fighters back or these soldiers back rehydrated and back into the fight and thought hey this is a type of expert but we need to talk to his extreme dehydration not you know some kid has diarrhea is mildly dehydrated with some some pedialyte brought him in had him actually the week of ufc two hundred he was in town got a chance to talk to a lot of the fight he's coming in and analyze the message they were using he
recommended to us hey you know here's the maximum amount of weight fighters you know that the you should recommend fighters a losing that fight week and that's how we came up with our weight guideline of eight percent so we recommend when those fighters check in tuesday for saturday fight with an eight percent of their goal weight usually on friday now the requirement a recommendation but you know we put that out there and educated heavily on that since then you talked i think last week about andy foster the executive director of california is really taking the lead in terms of commissions on in combating dangerous weight cutting he worked with us pretty closely on helping his ten point cutting plan or plan to combat serious a cutting includes his commission making calls to fighters on the card thirty days out ten days out making them a little bit more accountable farther out than fight week
he's also got a provision where fight night he takes the fighters wait ways them and their recommendation is you only put on ten percent of your weight back on plus a pound if they're over that california can recommend the fighter move up a weight class so really yeah i mean just a lot of you know ducation recommendations not hear a lot of people talk about and i'm curious for your thoughts on this this instantaneously instantaneously just put rules out there if you lose this much weight or put this much weight back on your suspended for six months twelve months you know whatever you're just not going to let you fight my concern there is when you have absolute rules fighters do everything possible to you know to make weight so you had a rule that if you miss wait you can't fight again for twelve months you have to move up a weight class fighters going to kill themselves to make weight my fear would be that you
put an absolute rule out there and someone get hurts because of the rule that you put in place which is a you know i think it's a measured approach you have to continually re evaluate it but i think right now the rules that are out there between our recommendations california's rules are more guideline recommendations and then that in conjunction with we're doing at the performance in but where i mean you saw last week there is no excuse if you issues making weight or you're not sure what your weight classes that you had every resource available the best in the world to you to come in can find that out to be given a plan on how to safely then make weight so you know it's a multimillion dollar investment that the ufc is put i think toward that problem and you know hey maybe two three years from now we say that was with good intentions but not enough we need to do more but i think right now that's our
strategy on the issue well i think a couple things would have to happen to really stop weight cutting one thing to blow up these weight classes because there's going to be champions in these weight classes that really won't be in that weight class anymore if you cut all the real heavy duty weight cutting out of the picture i think what nfc is trying to do is there do hydration test and did they do a series of my believe they do three leading up to the fight which really was it benefit this was telling me this someone someone was telling me this they've essentia lee made it almost impossible for you to cut weight so they do in hydration test on way in at the way they're doing hydration tests three different times three different times leading up to the fight i don't know the exact protocol but what they've done is essentially made it so that you can't be dehydrated like you can't and way weigh in you have to weigh in as this you know like if fighting at one hundred and seventy but you know
you get on the scale and your fucking dying like they're like no you're not really one hundred and seventy like that that's really where it should be this idea that the best way to fight is to cheat and a drain all yourself of fluids and and pretend that you're one hundred and sixty pounds then get back on the scale you know fifteen hours later at one hundred and eighty five that's fucking crazy that doesn't make any sense you're not really one hundred and sixty pound fighter you're one hundred and eighty five pound fighter who almost died it's interesting enough uh with forced a lot about this 'cause he went through it again why is such a great asset to the to the company but he says look there's certain guys and girls that have genetic ability to kerry you have good muscle mass usually that just carry a ton of water and it's not it's not difficult was not dangerous for them to drop ten or fifth in pounds not but it would be if they fought fifty
in pounds under see if there are fighting at one hundred and seventy pounds they really weigh one hundred and eighty five and if they shut down to one hundred and seventy they make that weight and then fought right then then it would be dangerous their performances radically diminished so were lying when those people get on the scale when they get on the scale they jackson they say one hundred and seventy sure one hundred and seventy for about an hour you know and then you're going to go right back up to what you were before you dehydrated yourself this is madness to me and this goes against what fighting is supposed to be what we talked about before about discipline and focus and technique and training that's what competing in supposed to be about it supposed to be about a fight or two equally skillful individuals try to figure out who's got the best strategy and who's got the best will and technique it's not supposed to be about who can do is legal cheating thing best 'cause that's what kuwait cutting is
well you know really the modern history of the ufc and the reason i think it's so successful is lorenzo in dana ran toward regulation right yes they said ok this is a note you know marketed as an no rules no hold bar of that they're uh in toward rules and so i think wichita and i actually had a discussion with bob then in about this executive director of nevada he's gram last week an he's looking with california's doing says look we have physical after the weigh in so you know we do the way is now at the host hotel so it's usually done at a ballroom fighter gets up on the scale its weight immediately goes behind the curtain and has their pre fight physical right but do they have hydration test california does some hydration testing fight night but would bob told me as i had the most experience ringside physicians in the world that have seen more combat sports events and everywhere i'm comfortable that these guys evaluating these medical professionals or evaluate these fighters in the scenario and if they feel or see
something is not safe for that fighter to compete the next night they'll call them off i think that's wonderful but i think all that does is keep fighters from getting to the point of death mean getting to the point they're sick they're the definitely compromised when there making the wait they're not really at that wait what i would really love in a perfect world besides the bare knuckle thing what i would really love is a weight class every ten pounds just have every time there's just giant gaps the gap between eighty five and two hundred and five is twenty fucking pounds that's a lot of i hear that but let me give you a scenario where it shows that that alone ain't gonna work female new division for the ufc one ufc125 because we had a one fifteen to one hundred and thirty five pound gap what happened in our first championship fight sojara eubanks couldn't make weight you know so there that in another
not just making a weight class i don't think solves the problem yeah but she's also relatively inexperienced young to sport and this is a brand new weight class that they really didn't have much saying you had more weight classes wouldn't help but they're not going to help by themselves you got it's got to be a multiple attack i think the hydration test should be along with that the hydration test and weight classes every ten pounds and then give the champion benefit of the doubt a each division whatever whatever weight class you know what we find out but they really way and they have an opportunity to fight for the title in that weight class yeah i think we talked about it when you tour the the p odd that we have on a couple of occasions used that owns it bioelectrical impedance machine to determine that the proper term i don't know but basically in can you step on the scale and you hold on these handles and it gives you some type of hydration reading we've done that few times on check in day
weigh in day we're not sure exactly what the numbers look like but that's something that you know we're looking into clint also does a lot of set of gravity testing fight week and fighters where you know little for tuesday or wednesday and i think he showed you that chart he'll look at how much weight fighter has to lose and then look at with their specific poverty reading is how diluted or concentrated urine is and if you see someone with a bunch of weight to lose that is you know relatively dehydrated specific gravity wise then you know it can alter their plan so and we've got a lot of lot of that stuff going on i don't necessarily disagree with you that more needs to be done the right now our plan of attack is to use these resources use the facility at the pi you know in ideal world i think other than making these absolute rules trying to uh
u k r fighters trying to show them i tell you one thing you can talk till you're blue in the face about things being bad on healthy for a fighter they're like a bullet proof knowing that their fighters but they're fighting that's bad for you and right my goal cut and what's bad for me too okay where they start listening and i think this is where the performance since two comes into play when you start talking about the effect on your performance so if you tell them hey look if you can come too you know your proper weight in a more measured approach and not lose a whole bunch and put that what look at the difference is going to make on your performance twenty four to thirty hours later you see this i mean you see this occasionally when fighters go through tough weight cuts you see them how failed los angeles after around or two right how good he's looked moving up to one hundred and seventy pounds mean it's just phenomenal i also
i think now it's interesting there's on one side of it the criticism will be well you're just encouraging even greater weight cuts and regains but i think this morning way in thing that we've put together i think has had a positive impact in a couple of areas explain for people in the war talk yes so actually anti foster again california before ufc one ninety nine came to me and said hey we've been doing this morning way and for couple of regional local shows would you guys be interested in it where we do it at the host hotel scales from nine hundred am to one thousand one hundred am and the idea would be a fighter gets on weight in their hotel room upstairs it's on the elevator steps on the scale they make weight they get started i'm drinking again right away with the idea of gotta wait till four hundred pm in the afternoon exactly the idea of i think one of the dangers of weight cut can being dehydrated is the amount of time that you're out of you know at a loss of that water
in the past when we had the way ends at an arena it would be the fire would have to check in downstairs say we had their way ends at four o'clock in arena the firewood define would check in downstairs that maybe two two the bus would leave remember in rio where in one time on a bus for an hour hour and a half to the arena everybody's depleted and dehydrated on the bus ride you step on a scale and a cold you know mentally unfriendly arena you don't get back on the bus drive another hour hour and a half you're talking multiple hours where these fighters are in a dip state so i think the morning way and protects against that i think the other benefit we've seen out of it and i think it's more of a long term than a short term benefit is we've seen a lot more fighters missing weight since went to the morning weigh inns and i think that's a product of timing in that in the past you had four you know four or five in the afternoon you had all day long to cut weight and you
see fighters at ten or eleven say i can't do anymore in a one or two hundred o'clock i said now i can do a couple more pal is it just all day long now unless you're literally not sleeping the night before you fight you have a show window in the morning to do that i think a lot of those miss way to help identify those fighters that i'm probably in the right wrong weight class i can't make that weight of waking up you know over six in the morning a couple hours and it's probably too much weight to lose and we've seen some fighters move up and we because of that we've also seen some fighters that have decided hey i gotta take this more profession and hire a nutritionist like could beat could be number of medoff who made weight easily for his last fight and the fight before that obviously fell out of right because his body shut down and he had to go to the hospital be rehydrated yeah again i don't think it's a one size fits all solution you have to be careful hey can be missed weight last time i went to the hospital you know and
jerk reaction be you can't fight right this wait anymore what we saw this time you just change the way he did things he came in he was on weight the night before he had a pounds to lose fight week so it can be done again that reverts back to the performance institute i think there's no exc use now that if you're a new fighter and you're not making a hell of a lot of money and don't have the resources to hire you know george stockard whoever you know how clint wattenberg who's an ivy league educated sports dietitian that can provide you all that remotely if you can't get to vegas he'll give you a full plan over you know the phone over email if you can get to biggest not only will clint plan things out for you but you have the kitchen and cooks and staff that will provide you that meal throughout your whole fight camp that i want to be there for free so amazing the place is incredible we will have clint and duncan on the podcast explain all that what's in that little so yeah so this is
so one of the things that we want to do with this program again is you know first and foremost stupor the ufc athlete protect the rights of clean athletes but we also influence other sports influence antidoping as a whole so you saw that came to us early this year and said we've got some new technology what do you guys think about using your program to be the first to kind of roll it out and so the answer you as well is the science good is it validated they said yeah it is actually at a conference midsummer back in new york and sat on a panel with major league baseball pga tour and the ufc and bunch of ant doping scientists there and they were talking about this technology and the other these were ass hey you guys going to institute that and then like now you know think enough there and they went to me i'm like absolutely if you saw this science tells me this works we want to be
first especially if it's more convenient and more efficient for a program so what this is is it's a leeching device and you know well this came out basically to get any blood tests from shit got some scissors nice i was ready for you and now this came out basically any blood test done from from our athlete had to be done for the phlebotomist full on needle in the vein take out a vial of blood so with leaching device it's got thirty micro needles in it decide about eyelash you put up on your arm hit this button and painless the the microneedles reach ended just capillary so just the blood of the top of the of the skin and draw out a small amount of blood and this light turns red when that blood is drawn out wow
blood is then deposited onto an index card it's called dried blood spot testing so a drop or two a blood on the four corner the cards then sealed up placed in the bill and sent to a water laboratory this is all have to on on video so that now we have a a clip it's not the athletes themselves you have a collector doing that i mean that could be the future where an athlete is doing it themselves out on facetime or something exactly but but here the benefits of that hey and this is this is huge for me i want to make things as convenient for our athletes as possible so you know you talk to our roster and ask them would you prefer big needle stuck in in the vein of your arm and a vial of blood taken out versus completely painless leech of some blood from blood from the capillaries are all going to say obviously this you talk about cost so
blood taken out of a vein in your arm requires a full bottom is so in those cases where you side is doing a blood test they usually take a drug collection officer and a full bottom is to take out of the blood to take out the blood i mean that's that's a couple hundred dollars there a vial of blood needs to be cold shipped to the water laboratories here you're talking about dried blood on an index card that just needs to be sealed up it becomes tamper proof once it is and put in the mail for fifty five cents so i think incredible efficiency convenience to the athlete for our program and again we want to lead and i think you know when you talk about out masses question regularly about local and regional anime show saying has great what you guys are doing for your program but how much does this program cost you and it is among five million dollar program a year and they say we love to do something like that but you know we can't afford that something like this where now you cut your cost down from sending blood to you know from maybe
one thousand dollars to you know maybe one hundred dollars this device in one dcl going to collect it out and put it on a card think it has some really great implications that makes for the ufc but you know throughout the sport can i see that thing sure that's pretty bad ass wow incredible anything else so we're at this good yeah man i think would you guys doing amazing job i mean it's just it's incredible the results it's so i to see the the results on the biological passport that you you guys could show it in a chart and i mean it pretty much everyone agrees i mean it's really changed the nature of fighting it really has it changed the sport it changed almost eliminated doping yeah i really as i told you i really appreciate the platform you have here literally every fighter and campaign manager on our roster watch roster watches so to be able to get in and talk about these things talk
about that new technology we just use that actually i think rose nomics eunice was the first later that you saw to try that out on so i sent her a text heroes i heard they did the leaching device in the blood the dried blood spot test would you think she said awesome didn't well thing and she said my mind is blown by detect how far technologies come here and that's a big part of anti doping in that deterrent when you're now saying look at how the technology is evolving here and you get an athlete thanks well you know i think i can out with them or out cotton then they see shit like this they're going to think and perceptions almost as important as reality in a lot of these occasions and they start seeing things like this and that deterrent factor is built and a higher and higher yeah it seems like at one point time there was a race in the doe pers were just like one half a step ahead but now it seems like it's eve and and with the possibility of freezing your sample and then look towards a to the future you're it's not it's not worth it
yeah i don't know if i call it even yet but that gas is definitely narrowing and you're affecting the the way that dopers order these days i think you know now the the you know michael does saying i think it's big and it's it's difficult to catch my grossing but you alter the behavior of the dope or from taking in a drug really unabated to very small amounts of the benefits are going to be as great i think you got to consider that a win for anti i think the gap continues to to narrow and when they michael does like what what is it like say you would that be like testosterone or something why can't testosterone epo probably the two most common very how much of a window do you have detection matter of hours sours but again going back to i think i might have told the story the last time i was on but the floyd landis lance days they were manipulating during the tour to france an eight hour window so from one thousand pm to six hundred am they wouldn't
custom during the tour of the thought was these guys are racing up the side of the mountain for five six hours a day we gotta let these guys sleep and they figured out if we do something at one thousand and one exelon there was at a certain be clear so you know prospects always out there that's why the ufc program there's no limits on the test now it's just a bummer terms of their sleep side is yeah it's brutal but i think you know i think most appreciate that that's the price of you know in sport and trying to ensure would there be a way to change that like would there be some sort of a wearable device that would detect changes in your body have often thought that yeah about a wearable devices tamper proof that collected everything twenty four hours a day that you peel it off after a couple of weeks and it's his tested or give them the wearable device so when there sleeping so you don't interrupt your sleep cycle so ten pm room to eight hundred am or whatever it is that you decided it would be the window that they need to sleep while they do
thing that they must have this device on that detects any changes to their metabolism any changes in input and then they can eat while they're on me believe me the anti doping community is always thinking about things i talked to travis tygart the sea have usada last week and he he made it clear and that you saw it dedicates three million dollars a year grant stored reese chant anti doping things like that so i mean that that race is always going on in this is always in a continuing beautiful great work i'm sorry about the nickname hope you get over it you're ok with it right off the back alright beautiful thanks brother appreciate it memorized hey thank you everybody for tune into the podcast thank you to our sponsors thank you to me undies go to meundies dot com slash road in and join now and become a member and get the best god damn underwear you could put on your package me undies dot com forward slash
thank you also to square cap he always works that way podcast which works great word commence move after the podcast my brain just check the fuck out we're also brought to you by square cash square cash the simplest way to pay people back download the free square cash app for ios or android now and thank also to ziprecruiter you can post jobs on zipper here for free if you go to ziprecruiter dot com slash rouge one more time to try for free go to ziprecruiter dot com port slash rogan alright that's it for today folks we'll be back tomorrow with the great and powerful ramie warrant and that's it for now we got a lot of blood great podcast coming up the table
so those tom pop is here next week dan harris the great and powerful tom segura danica patrick's coming on soon yeah nascar one john donahue i'm finally getting john dannaher in jujitsu wizard and philosopher and super genius and eddie huang eddie wong and the fcc chairwoman i believe is coming with them quite a lot of lot of podcast coming folks i'm excited youtube
Transcript generated on 2019-10-05.