The european experience is sponsored by flashlight the number one. Toy for men go. Flashlight, dot com in inner, the coupon code, Grogan and save yourself. Fifteen percent off there and were one sex toy for men, financial lie the general good experience. This one internet has been a very fascinating thing for me in the many years of urban, on the one most fascinating things about it, ability to get in touch with people that if you were young you know like in the long term ago there was no chance. I would be able to sit down with you and do a conversation you, be some author, whose books I admired, but now, because

crazy things podcast. Here we are seeing now Gram Hancock has joined us and, if you don't know, Grammy Agog is grandma. Is probably the one guy whose influence my view of history more than anybody ever and from this book, fingerprints of the gods. Prince of the gods, is, and what is it so, like five we and copies are something crazy like round about that. Here is an amazing book that basically challenges our view of history and dumb. You have spent an enormous chunk of your life, uncover all these different, ruptures and all these different monuments, and all these different things that you a tribute to a lost era of human and I'm one of my favorite terms, he uses that we're a species with hypnosis or excuse me with amnesia with amnesia yeah, and that, please tell me we're out of all others get crag, and how does he had started? Well it everything,

happened in my life has happened, the kind of by a series of accidents. I I never. I never planned out anything except I kind of a kind of new. When I was young, that I have one gifts, which was some of it to write- and the other thing above me- was when all through my childhood, I always felt I was on the edge of things not in the middle of things. Other people were in the middle. I was on the edge. I just always felt that and when I got through unity, de I kind of drifting towards towards writing current affairs journalism, and it was While following journalistic stories, I my last journalistic role, was, as the east African corresponded for the economist. Quite a quite a serious newspaper, I was based in Nairobi in Kenya and I will

covering wars and famines and politics, and all that stuff and on my beat was Ethiopia and I used to go to Ethiopia quite regularly. It was news a lot on one January Ethiopia. I feel into a city that the time was in the middle of a war zone, Deasey three that kind of dived down out of the sky, to avoid the machine gun nest in the surrounding hills and landed in the port, and this was an ancient city called actual and it incredible history. It had obelisks it had a polish supposedly of the queen of cheaper had an ancient cathedral, the most ancient Christian Cathedral in Africa, dating back to the three hundred after Christ and in the grounds of the cathedral in a chapel outside the chapel. I meet a monk and he tells me in the conversation we have

he's got the arc of the covenant in that chapel. This was, I had heard that they are. The covenant was important to either of you, but now I'm sitting in front of a monk with cataracts in his eyes and he's telling me behind him in that chapel, but I can't go. There is the arc of a covenant, and I said you can I go. Can I can I see it and he said no, no, nobody can see it even the former. Would never allowed to see the Ark the covenant either the writers of lust out movie had come out only like a couple of years before this was in the early eighties and them. So I left that place

impressed by the this man, but not really believing it, and then I started to look into it, and I discovered that actually, Ethiopia is the only country in the world which has a living veneration, almost worship, of the arc of the covenant. Ethiopia has ancient Christianity, but it also has ancient Judaism Desert the jewish community in Ethiopia called the flashes. They call themselves the better Israel. How did they get there? They practise a very ancient form and they dont have rabbis, they have priests. They perform sacrifice. Other judaic peoples do not like an old testament world frozen in the highlands of Ethiopia, so I started to get interesting. This is this is weird and MRS exciting, and what can I find out about this? went to the academics and they said, ah all rubbish those Ethiopians? They just made it up to make themselves look back, ok, but then why

the case that in every single church in Ethiopia, more than twenty thousand churches there's a replica of the arc of the covenant in the Holy of holies. What does it look like? Well, mostly, it's a box sometimes actually they they reduce the replicators simply to tablets which are supposed to represent the tablets of stone inside the arc of the government. But the aka covenants, not a christian object. It's a pre christian object. What's it doing in all these churches, wise white where's, this all come from. Why do we have the black Jews of Ethiopia practising their very ancient forward it isn't. I really started to dig and I kind of first time. I realized that you don't want to listen to academic, solve time, professor acts and doktor. Why may be very, very impressive people with their credentials, but they have prejudices. They have a fixed view of the past which they're going to stick to come. What may, and as I started to investigate this, this is what drew me out of current affairs and into ancient mysteries II found that he was a real investigation. That story that has never been told

Could this remote country in the Horn of Africa really have the arc of the covenant and if so, how could it have got there? And I spent several years my life trying to answer those questions and by that time, but TAT I got and that investigation I had left current first behind you hurt. I was hooked on the past. Let us back What did you ever wonder if you are going crazy like here? I am really investigating of some people in Ethiopia actually have some crazy thing from a book now makes no son. I never really thought it was real. I wasn't. I thought it was real. I was I was neither thought, no didn't think that I was impressed by the Ethiopians themselves and I was impressed by the purity of their belief and the passion with which they held it, and the fact that here, after thousands of years, the subject disappeared from the Bible the time well around about six hundred fifty years before Christ. It's not me and again in the Bible, after that it vanishes and- and yet here is its worship in in TWAIN

century. Ethiopia today is. Do we explain this and it was at an end, as I dug deeper, I began to realize that actually there was a real possibility. They did have the arc of a government and that it is connected to the mystery of the Ethiopian Jews and and that the story they themselves tell about it, which connects it. It's a dream, very romantic and lovely story. They say in brief that the queen of Shiva famous Queen of Shiva, wasn't an ethiopian queen and that, Sir, she, when you try to Jerusalem to meet Solomon, which is described in the Bible, fixed big episode in the Bible She didn't only exchange wisdom with him. She also exchanged bodily fluids and she became pregnant with King Solomon son, who was to be called Melick, which, which actually means the son of the wise man and pregnant she left,

Jerusalem returned to Ethiopia gave birth to her son Menelik there at the age of twenty or twenty one, he wanted to visit his famous father in Jerusalem. He traveled north went to Jerusalem. Spent a year there and at the end of the year, contrived to steal the arc of the covenant from Jerusalem and take it off to eat the up here and there has been ever since that's the ethiopian story. I believe, behind that legend, there's a true history It really got there and that's what I that's in the end. What I ended up writing my my first book of historical mysteries, about which was the sign of the sea and wasn't, speculation about the arc of the covenant that it was some sort of a technological device. It was actually radioactive. Yes, I got into that speculation myself at some length because, as I started to investigate this, have you not only was the ethiopian side of it fascinating and mysterious, but the object itself is quite extraordinary. I mean it dominates the Bible

beginning of the straight from the time there in Sinai. They the exodus there there's a tremendous role for the arc of the covenant, may follow it through the wilderness and its marched around the city of Jericho. It knocks down the walls of Jericho it's usually boarded. The temple of Solomon is built with only one function and that's too server, and this is a quote as an house of rest for the arc of the covenant of the Lord. That's the only reason that the Temple of farmers bill dislike at a certain point. It's gotta, be placed out of the public view, is always a dangerous subject as they're carrying it with strikes people dead. If somebody touches it by chance, balls of fire comes out of. Actually I mean Spielberg in the Indiana Jones movie. The way they portray the Ark was spot on how its described in the old testament as absolutely devastating deadly instrument.

So it's e g, the Israelites use it in battle. It desert accounts of flying into the air, rushing toward the enemies of Israel emitting a moaning sound. They all fall down dead Then there's a later account with a the Philistines capture the arc of the covenant. They take it off to the city of Ash Dodd. Then they make the huge mistake of opening it and they treated like a tourist object. People work by the Bible says fifty thousand died and how did they die cancerous tumors? That's what's that was actually described in the in the Bible, so the arc of the avenues firstly contained within it? What's left of the tent

moments graduates inside, as was supposed to be inside of it, and also isn't there a written upon by the finger of God himself. If you have you to hail testament and that's a better and that their that kind of power source of the arc of the covenant, what that power is, I did get into some speculation on this it it. It seems obvious to me that that, at one level the arc of the covenant is and out of place technology. It's it's a strange technology which is witches which is presented itself in a surprising context where you don't expect to find it and there it is so I started to look into the background of this. Where did this come from and where it comes from, his Egypt, Moses, is intimately connected with the arc of a covenant. Moses is raised in the household of the Faro in Egypt, he's groomed to be future Pharaoh and then the falling outcomes, and he leaves with the children of Israel and builds the arc of the covenant in Russia in the Sinai

Now he was raised and groomed as a future Pharaoh than he would have been a magician. He would have been versed in high magic of ancient Egypt and those guys could do virtually anything they set their minds. To I mean anybody can build the great pyramid of Egypt. Built when we are told it was built, it's an extraordinary and even if it was built before then, whenever people don't understand what you're talking about here, you you, your premise or a big part of it, is that there is somewhere around? What is it ten thousand years ago somewhere around then towards the end of the last ice age? Humanity was probably mostly wiped out, are wiped out in a big way and we had a rebuild from there. We has only build and we and I believe that we lost a civilization that time, an entire civilization which has not been recorded by history and that it went under water with the rising sea levels and what led meets

This was the reason I became interested in pursuing that line of inquiry was the arc of the covenant, because it seemed to me, it seems to me, like a piece of technology was out of its place in history in the way that it was described not wishing to put down the spiritual aspects, because they are there, but there were definite technological ass this device, and then I had to ask myself what? Where could that knowledge have come from and through Egypt? We then start to find that Egypt itself looks back to an old time. The ancient Egyptians didn't regard themselves as the beginning of their story. They regarded themselves is quite late point in their story. They look back to the time of the gods which they called cept Happy, the first time when there was a golden age and they speak in their our tax, the egg FOO building tax, which speak of the gods living on island, I got to flood coming. Most of the gods are killed. Odd thing happened gods and then they settle in Egypt. The survivors come and settle in Egypt, and so

Egypt is the product of an even far earlier civilization, but but Story of Egypt goes back way way further than people. Think, and that's why you that's my I support that view and I was astonished when you had Robert Shop and John Anthony West when they brought their findings about the erosion of the temple. The sphinx they brought. These thanks to these academics and just the the tone their voice. The way they were approaching the information, the the mocking attitude that they had a bit, but where is the civilization speaker, because they're talking about association that was possibly what thousand BC or something and render out I will. I would put the finger at about ten thousand five. They say what people end of it. If you don't know the story behind it, there's water erosion on the edge of the yard,

the Temple the Sphinx has done. That could only be attributed to thousands of years of rainfall. Last time there was Rainfall Denial Valley was the breakthrough. Work that John Anti Western Rubbish Yoke did that the initial observation were came through job who is an at the start, only knowledgable man about ancient Egypt he's not a official egyptologist that he spent his whole life working, an ancient Egypt, Anne and through his research and his background, he came to came to realize

The erosion patents on the sphinx are really odd and he then went to shock road shock at the University of Boston, who is a geologist at an open minded one, and he said when you come to Egypt with me and give me your geological opinion on this monuments. Shop went there and, and was immediately clear to him that this monument had been subjected to thousands of years of heavy rainfall at some point in its history. That's where the mystery begins, because the study of ancient climates is quite well advanced, and we know that five thousand years ago, four and a half thousand years ago- and this figure is supposed to have been built. Egypt was as Mon dry as it is today, and you have to go back some thousands of years before that at least

to about nine thousand years ago to get the very heavy rainfall that would have caused the erosion of the sphinx, but that only means that the sphinx was standing there nine thousand years ago to be ranged on it may be much older than vat shock is cautious and he will not, sir. You will not push the date back beyond,

The hard evidence suggests is willing to ease what he does accept, that the sphinx may well have stood there before the heavy rains began. But how long before it is a matter that he cannot be certain on about where Robert Bavaw and I were able to take the matter on a little further with the astronomy of the Visa plateau, and you find there's this justice stunning thing that happens in the sky. I mean this is one of one of the great things. I have some problems with technology, but I have to say one of the great things about computer technology is the way that it can speed up access to information in an incredibly efficient way, and there are computer programs now which will show you exactly how the stars were position that any time in the last thirty thousand years. Over any point on the surface, you can literally wine back the ancient skies and see them undisguised. Do change, because the earth is the viewing platform from which we observe the stars. There's a wobble on the

of the earth. Christmas regulation has right on the war, will take twenty two twenty six thousand years to complete the cycle. So it's a cyclical process. Eventually, the stars will all returned to starting point and begin the cycle again, and because of that, we can say that the sphinx was gazing. His own celestial counterpart, the constellation of LEO, at dawn on the spring equinox in ten thousand b c, while ninety degrees away, Jus, south or Ryan, was lying on the meridian in exactly the pattern of the pyramids on the ground and doesn't John Anthony where's go even deeper. He leaders, like thirty thousand b, save your right. Crayons John thinks it might be pushed back Another professional cycle said we take it back to two that twelve and a half thousand years ago, but you have the same alignments, another twenty

six thousand years earlier. So thirty, eight thousand years ago, you would have the same alignment says you at twelve and a half thousand years, and doesn't he base it on actual hieroglyphs to depict the images of the faroes on absolutely right? There's again, this is the area where the Egyptologists, the academic Egyptologists, incredibly annoying, because they will not listen to what the ancient Egyptians themselves had to say. It's as though They, the academics, know more about ancient egyptian history than the ancient Egyptians did themselves in the ancient Egyptians were really very clear these. They they pushed their history back well, plus thirty thousand years. What was aggravated offensive? Why aren't that? Why? Why would they buy? Why are they so I'm sorry? I wondered that myself when I first got into this, I initially couldn't understand it. I think I think it's a problem with science in general. I think that was at a late discovery. Did they haven't establish Timeline Van raising Nablus, the timeline, the timeline, said prematurely in stone

over the last decade and sort of last fifty fifty years of the twentyth century, I mean really Biden by the begin the twentieth century, a timeline had been worked out and buy the nineteen fifties. It was very much MRS they is just not willing to consider any previous day there If anything rose the whole timeline out and because I ve been teaching it for so long, the reluctant to open up tyrants, I would say so but better, but also they themselves, I'm I'm I'm not suggesting any dishonesty on their part. They themselves absolutely believe their version of the past in all fairness. You know Robert Shocks, depiction of the erosion. There have been two centres and I've read some different peoples papers, but other they seem very logical in me. I looked at it myself. I know what water erosion looks, like obviously not a geologist, but when I look at it and you say that that's wind and sand and and then they showed extreme examples of wind and saint erosion- doesn't look the same theirs. It looks like this crevices has been created by water. It's really obvious, it really does.

And then this so much else that at that adds to that I mean there's. The sphinx is not alone there. There are other weathered stretches out there on the visa platter and labour warnings under deepen. They find ones that are underground, that are these old style construction islands there were built. Much like this. The temple, the space, but not like the later stuff than it looks like two different areas of construction actually does looks like two phases of construction, one very ancient one more recent and they ve got muddled up in the academics. Mine watching doktor shock try to talk to the edge of town just about that was of. It was a fascinating thing, because the got super defensive and he was where. Where is this civilization you're? Speaking of this ten thousand problem of great movements, it was likewise late. What Amira remarks was mark later, whose needs you told us that the Oriental Institute in Chicago that one of the lead west archaeologist work. In Gaza. In his remark, which we could often was, you know, shit

the pot shared, whereas the pictured from this from Verona civilization? Well the eye? It was at that time that the sphinx cannot possibly be of that age. Because there's nothing else in the world of that age. How could it be? Does one unique thing which has twelve and a half thousand years old or baby older raising the monument. How can that be alone? Member the show me the purchase of the rest of that civilization well, some years later, those pictures of started to turn up and they ve turned up in Turkey. In the form of an ugly Turco, actually Tapie a gigantic megalith example. Which dates back to precisely twelve thousand years ago, and even has carvings of animals that don't exist anywhere near Turkey. On this thing and they're trying to attributed to Hunter gathers, which is hilarious, it's really really hilarious there. They these these were people who,

an organised and systematic civilization, and it was somehow or another intentionally covered up buried. They buried. Claims very these gigantic twelve foot, tall, beautiful stone, carvings work, lizards, armament, stuff, and I also by and by the way that the ancient Egyptians themselves decommissioned some of their temples when they knew their system was going down. They knew it was going down. The Romans were the end of it for Egypt that the Egyptians from lived through the greek period. When the Greeks arrived in Egypt, what happened was the edge since colonized the greek mind and the Greeks became Egyptians and when the Romans took over it was a different story That's my people they find out where still work. Still yeah, that when the Romans made this alliance with Christianity and the christian church pulled on the Jack boot of Rome, it was Christians who really wanted to take Egypt part they wanted to destroy everything.

And the egyptian priest themselves, rather than let their temples fall into their hands in that way, they went around and destroyed certain things in the temples, and they did so quite quite deliberately to to remove that power from the others who were. To come and take it in? I waited down. I've only been to a couple places. A been to cheat needs have never been to Egypt, but I've been to the one of the museum, fine, arts and boss, and have an injection exhibit they had all this amazing old shit and that it is so hard to wrap your head on even the established timeline of two thousand five hundred BC. What are you looking at the structures? It's so hard to wrap your head around like when you're looking at a beautiful girl, and covered sarcophagus that you know had King Tut inside of it, it's like what was that, like you know, kind of weird alternative way to live to these guys figure out where they thousands of years ago figured build these almost

perfect geometric structures of two million three hundred thousand stones or if you fuck up just a little bit here or there by the time you get the top it's done and then they will they did screw up. A few of them is a few lapse at Yale but they got a right to who knows who the hell was doing a screw up ones that could I imitator one's way done later by Bye, bye, copier lost a scare based, basically that that's the mystery of Egypt is that debts and John West makes this point that that it's perfect at the beginning and it slowly decline This is not what we expect. We expect to see civilization slowly rise. We don't expect to see them perfect, fully formed at the beginning and then take three thousand years to end, while, even when you push back the established time line- and you know what we can't even rap- our head around a thousand years mean a thousand years- is very difficult to represent around. Why do you, get so difficult for them to embrace the pretty obvious

possibility that things get wiped out. I mean there's the craters all over the moon when we know there's all sources spots all over. You know you'd go dry by the giant, Crater Nevada, it's a mile wide boom, something hits everybody gets fucked I mean easily could have happened over and over again throughout history and justice. That seems to me to be we more likely than we made it all the way from Caveman two here without a hiccup, without a thing like that, I, as a This leads. You know this this. This leads to lead me to to conclude that that academic history is part This has been paranoid, but part of an overall system of kind of mind, control that that operates there said things that we are allowed to think and certain parameters that we are allowed to think within in our society and and when it comes to the past. Those parameters are set by academics and they get so territorial and so defensive when you try to break out of that

and and suggest other pussy. I thought lively when I got into this first. That said, those who were specialists in this field would welcome some new ideas. They might throw them out in the end, but they would want to see what there was any merit to the ideas, and so initially I was really shocked that the attitude this idea doesn't agree with us. We are going to destroy this idea anyway, we can not only that we gonna destroy it the visuals associated with this idea. We will attack the man at the idea at home on a metallic exactly exactly in a very dirty tricks kind of way. Only later on, I see that I came to realize that academic soul treat each other this waste there, there they're all very. Very territorial they're, all legal driven. They have their power base in a particular view, and they defend that view to that

to the death now when you see the doctor shock is very conservative. You you're not joking around about that, and I was wondering when I hear some things that he says about other ancient structures. I wonder why I wonder if he took too much heat from the sphinx, and now he like backs off on stuff the bosnian pyramid and even the japanese structure DS I went there- I went there with shock. He's crazy and shock. Would not that's crazy. He shut when the shock a shock would not accept that it was a man may structure, but but I have to say that at that point, Yonah Guinea is a very difficult dive. It's a very difficult time. The seas are wild, there's huge current flows right in front of the monument, and you have to be an accomplished. Diver to do any work shock, was on his second open water dive. At this point and on those initial dives that we did on Yonah Goody, he was largely

fighting for his life to ask how you guys are balls. I love it. It's about my wife Sancho. If children, I centres right here with us, have done more than two hundred plus dives on the Yonah gloomy monument. We went through the process of learning to dive and really getting the skills to be able to handle that kind of curve which is literally gonna rip mask of you Asian, take your regulator. Out of your mouth is like in a river against the current actually. So what I would is that I think she was a little premature with that conclusion, and I think he he's I've huge respect for Roma shock. I've used respect for his openness and minded his geological, a comment but enough time was spent on the monument to reach that decision, and it's not just one monument its whole complex of monuments and further north settles settle it for me off okinawan, which is about four five hundred miles north.

Deanna Gurney. There is a majestic stone circle. A hundred and ten feet beneath the water which again something I've dived on extensively with shock, has not seen she's, there's just no way on earth that that monument good dear photos. Just yes, we do. We have fought as well that I look for ok, you got onto W W ram, I'm sure of it. Just Google, it gotta, Graham Hancock local culture and then two gallery: underwater. We have underwater on the gallery water. Yes, and in the underwater section you can to see a stone circle somewhere there with it with somebody above it holding a video camera. That's me holding the video and down on the down below. You is a stone circle and there's probably some more shots of it. I'm gonna come round assuming looking at that. This right here is thus the stone circle.

The central, upright These are the surrounding upright see, that somebody made get this thing. This thing's twelve feet high, yeah and its hundred and ten feet beneath the sea, so cool wow. That's incredible Maybe it's the most extraordinary thing and hundred ten feet beneath the sea tells us that it was made at least thirteen thousand years ago because the last time that a hundred and ten foot level was above sea level so that makes sense. With Robert shock about these ruin, the japanese ruins cause. There's one of em, they're, really freaked me out. I watch a documentary on where they show this. Two monolith ass, we talked earlier describe them as pizza boxes, the giant stone pizza boxes. There were so perfectly. Caught and laying right next to each other. I would think you would look at that and you have to throw everything else away. You look at that. He, like that's, not a natural phenomena, and somebody is right angles everywhere that sends off

It does mean that if the beauty in the perfection of the thing is is is part of it, but but part of it, which needs to be needs to be taken into account. I I I can understand why some geologists feel that it must be natural, and this is this- is the real that the stone is a entry stone is laid down in lairs and with the less are soft and some of them are hard their argument is that the sea battering against these last selectively removed the soft lairs and left the hardliners producing this step. The fact the problem with that is that if that happened, then you would back to see the very large amount of rubble which was created by removing all these latter, as you would expect to see it, dying in a disorganized mass down at the bottom of the monument which the tub from top to bottom. Monuments, about seventy feet high, so seventy feet down on all of its underwater caused by the use of the dead with the bottom, is about a hundred and ten feet below sea. So you would

to find that rubble lying at the base of the monument. Actually, what you do find is a beautiful path cut out of solid rock at the base of the monument and all the rubble clearer to the side. The way forming a bank which is no way on earth that could have been done by nature. It had to be done by man. That's what play that's. What people do they clear way? tidy up and leave a nice looking site and that's what that's? What is this? What is theirs was little details like that plus the fact, there isn't just one monument is actually about five along a good for miles of the coast, said impossible for me to accept that as a natural phenomenon- and I guess question comes up when you, when you talk about a ancient monuments, are anciently civilizations for fourteen thousand plus years ago, how It really would be left it's a so long. We aren't. We are for input in respect of the house that wherein in and fourteen thousand years will absolutely not be here and have we leave its gun

We completely gone, will be almost no evidence. The earth will devour these computers devour the leather and the table in the chairs. Ok venerable all go into dirt. Dirt will fill it over lava. Calm earthquakes will shift things. Maybe I will be forgotten forgotten. It will be very, very easy for that to happen, so I consider the effect of ice. Consider it considered the thing that during the last ice age, North America, and Northern Europe were covered with these gigantic ice caps, that you're talking ice, which is two to three I'll, be your websites getting crushed right now. We get on your website is sorely lacking in our scarce smashed. Safeguard use has given that sucker glad to hear you know so so try I lost my threat. There were also Sars words hides the effects, the eyes of the Euro, so the ice forms on

the land mass of the: U S and of Europe. It builds up to a depth of two miles, it's in motion consent. What's happening to anything underneath under two miles of ice is being ground to powder too, Fine powder is like it. It's like just wiping literally wiping out the path starts. Why was such a big deal to find that ice man, because he had fallen into a crevice, and so the glacier had passed over him and never touched him? Why? What iceman? What's this guy on Z in it in ITALY? He he's about five and a half thousand years old and he fell into a glacier in the Alps and he came out of it again in the late twentieth. That is an interesting story. Ethics, fascinating because, like he was made it found an arrow embedded in his body. He and he was look like it been ambushed him shot. Up there and he died there and frozen was covered with snow immediately and then he was preserved than some hikers found his body to make

story man, but what's incredible, is that if this, if grams view of history is true, then this guy Five thousand years ago was really like some dude who survive some horrible cataclysmic event, the that those civilization moved for people re, learn things relearned hunting array learned YO, making skins and turn them into fabric are turning into close. What's Europe, why? What's that we get our theory of where it all started, where? Where did we come from? Why? Where in humans are well, I think that term, I'm I'm not against the. Academic reconstruction of the human family tree. I think they ve done some. I think that done some quite good work, so pass your question. I have to go back to go back quite far, the last common ancestor with the chimpanzee, which is about six million years ago and then from then you get

a gradual emergence of a creature would begins to look more and more human, and by two half million years ago that creature is making stone tools. First, sign of real intelligent activity returned the air conditioning. But the stone tools are very limited and once The creature has invented them, it doesn't. Change for the next billion years, the stone tools day. Exactly the same, so we know that their passing down culturally nation, and we also know that their extremely rigid in their thought patterns- and they stuck in that then a new type of stone to is introduced and that one sticks for another million years. Well and during this time, our ancestors of looking more and more like us and finally, the earliest surviving,

fully anatomically modern human skeleton comes from me. Theo appear as a matter of fact, and it's a hundred and ninety five thousand years old us just short of two hundred thousand years old before that we, the creatures closely related to us, but they didn't look quite like us, and their brains were not quite like us, but by a hundred. Ninety five thousand years ago, an atomic modern humans have evolved, but their behaviour has not evolved. Their behaviour is stuck in India our cake period and there still, using the same, limited, unimaginative stone tools that we have been used a million years before

and then it sir. I really extraordinary thing happens and its within the last fifty thousand years is that you just get this incredible surge forward in inhuman behaviour, the dawn of spiritual beliefs, the they very very clear because they started burying food and water with the dead that anybody who does that. They definitely believe that some aspects of the individual continues after death and they created the great cave out. The amazing amazing painting stunning works of art. All of this behavior seemed just switch on kind of overnight somewhere after fifty thousand years ago, and I saw I would I would start the clock about their where, where Suddenly, you ve got these incredibly intelligent artistic, creative creatures on the planet. Who are us, and they are doing this- Can I and I believe that some of them stayed in the hut. Gather a mode all the way through all the way through history

the UN and those whether the cave, artists, Sunday of what's got the upper penny living and I think some of them moved in another direction and formed a civilization and just as today, in our twenty first century world, we have highly advanced technological civilizations coexisting. We together, as you do they'll have traditional hunter gatherer is in the Amazon in Botswana, for example. I believe it was the same in the world then, and I think that the what I think of as the lost civilization was largely a maritime civilization, living along coastlines living on the best lands during the ice age, because inland it was arid, it was cold. There was the yet, there was no right, roaring, totally desert, very, very difficult to live, but on the coasts, things were much better, and that was precisely the coasts that were inundated when mysteriously and suddenly the ice age ended and all that ice started to melt down

I went back into the ocean and the sea levels rose and you think tat I mean I read above read all your books. A red us supernatural as well just one among many, my favour more life. When I found more, because if you really stepped out on some serious limbs are now- and you know light yeah, I mean you come from the journey from being a journalist who was covering this thing in Ethiopia to super Joe, which insinuates that humanity has probably learned a good deal of what we are and what we become because of psychedelic drugs? I believe is actually the case, and- and I think that with the current demonization of psychedelic drugs in our society. It, Sir huge mistake how much resistance of you fell from that book? What I've had enormous amount of resistance to it because have had them a mind: programming exercise, cold war on drugs for the last forty years, which

has been designed to create an internal enemy in our societies and convince people that their these evil wicked groups who are these terrible sinful things smoking these drugs and doing doing this, and that in this very dark image has been created around it, and people get very upset irrationally about this. Sir about this whole issue, and actually has been forgotten in in all of this, and from for me has become I regard it as an extremely important issue is that when the state sends us to prison, for essentially exploring our own consciousness. This is a group ask abuse of human rights, it is mental wrong if I as an adult, I'm not a sovereign of I unconsciousness, then I'm absolutely not sovereign over anything. I can. Claim any kind of freedom at all, and and and what has happened over the last forty or fifty years under the disguise of the war on drugs. Is that that we have been persuaded to hand over

the keys of our consciousness to the state, the most pray is the most intimate the most sapient part of ourselves? The state now has the keys and furthermore vapor waited us that that's in our interests. This is a very danger. Situation have you ever. There is an article that was recently published about people and creativity and that everyone says they love creative ideas, but the truth is amongst non creative people. Creative ideas make them confrontational upset, make them defensive way. When you start talking about and experiences like psychedelic experiences one of the things that always freaked me out is the people's inability to even consider that there is a difference between a psychedelic experience on drugs, and Drugs is gonna ruin your life things it's in there, not even interested in considering that possibility. There's two different: it's like the same thing: it's like someone resisting. Definitely again. The relentless released remember that the programme funded with our money, our taxpayers

honey. There has been forty years of programming more than forty years on this subject. To make us all develop. A kind of aversion never fear hatred, horror of of of of drugs- and this is the just fine mentally wrong, and so in so many ways look quite a number of illegal drugs are actually the bad and really dangerous and aid? They will totally fuck you up in all kinds of in all kinds of ways, but I believe that the sovereignty of the adult over his, her own body and his or her own mind trumps everything, and we must have the right to make mistakes. We already have laws in our society for punishing bad behaviour. If some the on drugs goes out

gets in somebody else's face and causes them trouble. We already have laws to deal that we don't need new laws that control our consciousness and rigidly place it in a prison and actually place us in prison solely for employing what you just said that we already have laws to keep it from doing bad thing. Is this so important? We dont, you seem so logical, sick, so clear if you can drink and not do anything bad go drink exactly? If smoke pot and not doing bad dear fellow human costs, money If that's what you want to do that you're out of decision, that's your choice that what this liberty mean if it did with, if it doesn't mean that people in the right get into this ridiculous, just obey the law, wasn't such a hard time. What are your druggie new drugs get through his life and I we say This decision are logical. Argument is imagine if we were on an island with young people on the planet. There was only four of us There is only four of us. One of us wanted to smoke pot and we say

We got a lot. This guy fuckin cage is crazy. We decided to use it to that, for that you really see the destiny of silly. It is like you, you just like this guy, but to get you can't swamp, we mean a law against it What's in that, for is just as ridiculous. Four million four hundred million or what it just as ridiculous. An extraordinary thing in any have to consider what its lead to in our society, kinds of ways is led to the creation of huge armed bureaucracies who have the right break into our homes, smash down our doors? Humility it is in every possible way, ruin our lives with, with with criminal records and all because what we're we're where smoking, some mesh natural hope which we, which which affects our own consciousness in some way again, I say if we get into the faces of others to state, may have arisen and it does- and it already has elaborate rules for dealing with that, but for the state to have transgressed, the consciousness of

Free, sovereign adults is a grotesque abuse of human rights and it doesnt work. This is the other thing. If this day could turn round sake? The war on drugs has worked. We reduce the consumption of this that it's not true, they haven't reduce the consumption of any drugs, the consumers of Daily L. All illegal drugs has gone up up and up and up and up and up, let's take another drug tobacco. You never got sent to jail for smoking, tobacco, you never got your life really know your front door broken down, but some is ago people caught and onto the notion that tobacco actually may be making is pretty unwell. If we smoking a lot of tobacco, seems to be a connection with lung cancer- and this was sir. This information was put forward. Look what's happened with tobacco in the last twenty years. Millions millions and millions of adults all over the world presented with that information have taken apart, no sovereign decision to stop smoke, cigarettes. I took that decision one. Thirty. Eight years old I used to sixty one now I used to

forty cigarettes a day, and I was a journalist. You know why cigarette hanging out the mouth typewriter- I was a heavy smoker, but I took the decision I came to. The pollution is not good for my body, Stephen King said that it was a narrow transmitter and enhanced that he suffered when he stopped smoking with so many writers have them, but we are re. Why did you smoke so much as a writer helps yoyo does it definitely did definitely did help. As does set marijuana, but about the fact is that there is one point that I want to make is that is that, if the same it was really interested in helping us. This is how the war on drugs presented were concerned, about your health, so we're gonna, say the prison you said the harm this drug is doing to so we're going to send you to prison, what's more harmful to health. The drug is doing or being sent to prison. Seized me pretty obvious that the being sent to prison is a much more harmful thing that Sir

that's being done. If the state was really concerned about harm Then the solution is not to criminalize people for taking drugs. The solution is to present them with very good information, which they believe part of problem is that the state has become to be right. It is so corrupt that any more judge emanating from the state about drugs is not believed anymore, completely. Disbelieved So so you know what again- we come to this issue of adult sovereignty over. The consciousness and our also to make mistakes with our own body. If we do that, that's what we, I believe we here on this earth to learn and to grow and to develop, and we have to have our responsibility to do that. Always astonishes me in America, where you have the Republican Party, which is strongly in favour of individual freedoms. That is all Republicans, who were the ones who are most anti drugs, I filled the drug The republican issue. I think that Any true Republican should absolutely champion the

of every adult individual. If they choose to do so, too floor their own with anyone They choose yeah, there's no real parties anymore. It's just a mixed smash, Mean Obama is just as much a republic in as any republic events ever been in office. I've I've seen this I've seen this happening. Weird assimilation, yeah yeah made it is this your Faulkner one scene if either the same perfectly, because really our societies being run by a gigantic face. Bureaucracies. Now those are much more dangerous than anything else, because they don't even have a figurehead. They just continue they roll on and they run and they run people's law, but that the aspect of society, where powers, the beer, trying to control people's mental territory, is not a new thing. There's nothing going on for very, very long going out of of the newest incarnation Riyadh, which burnings where exactly the very.

I would say that that in our societies today, drug users play the same role as which has played in Europe in the sixteenth century. That's that's fundamentally what's going on therein, internal enemy, which the society can be mobilized hate because that's what the state does. It makes people hate and fear and suspect other people, because then want to rely on the state for their defence of their protection schools, it's a game, is a mind game and has been going on for a very long time, and it happens that the current victims are drug users. Anne, and you know the word that it's interesting language itself has been deployed in this war, so that Very rarely find the word drug separated from the word abuse that you'd ever find. Notion of a responsible use of drugs, you find. Only the notion of abuse of drugs

and and so its becoming possible almost to speak about drugs. Without incorporating this, this notion that the sum abuse is taking place and the idea that you can actually benefit from them is an alien thought, completely Alia, very, very much hated by by our societies. And yet you know the research is coming through. We ve had the research in the last year with side of Simon easing anxiety of tat term. Cancer patients emptier may with them with post traumatic stress disorder from fantastically successful and cancer apparently be. Now we're there seemed no? You produces Vendee Amendment made treat cancer. Since joy in line you feel this kills all that stuff. I know- and I mean these- you know these these some, I believe, They know what Aldous Huxley called psychedelic gratuitous graces. That nation nature just gave us for free kind of grace.

To allow us to ex experience something else and didn't Huxley coin. The term psychedelic he's when it came up might possibly. I was actually and am I care for the other person. Man I think that they were, they had different. There were trying to come up with a worthy. In other words that they were going to use forbidden sounded to unsafe. We you're right, you're, right, you're, right, yeah, definitely, second dogs, the perfect word the nailed. It then they now Lydia do you subscribe to mechanics ideas about the stones, In theory. You know that theory that human beings may have actually evolved from the lower primates, because the fact that we ate mushrooms yeah- I came to that idea. I like to say turns Mckenna. One of the great I am sad, wonderful amazed,

person, what a wonderful man an incredible loss that will be lost, Terence he. But he was a remarkable individual and I never met him. Unfortunately, but he I love, listen, and his voice me too? I don't love his voice. I have a whole section of my ipod is all turns Mckenna lectures. Sometimes using we go down to Brazil sometimes to drink. I ask and sometimes in the late in- and I ask a second as you're beginning to return to this reality- it's nice to play with music all over the world some and certain sometimes replay turns banana and an eye, and I just remember what line was about how psychedelic dissolve boundaries when he says that they deserve of boundaries between you and your cat. Even between you and your washing machine. I have had wonderful ideas and he he very intuitively very far far ahead of his time grasped the note

in that this, some sudden advancement of humanity had to do with psychedelic it it. What it did it broke our rigid behaviour patterns that we were stuck in and unable to change and opened us up to new possible He's you see this remarkable events taking place after fifty thousand years ago. Definitely to do with academics now. Ceuta, since that time, there's a parallel track, which is the academic work on cave art and psychedelic switches. Professor David Louis Williams of the university with what is rounded south and he has absolutely taken it beyond, intuition and totally proved, without any doubt whatsoever that all of the cave art was inspired. By visionary experiences on psychedelic, there's just no doubt about cut all prove them. You prove it by the nature of the art itself. It can. Its rich with what I called and topic phenomena certain patterns, zigzags grids, hexagon honeycomb patterns, internet

curved lines, the caves a covered in all of these go around too. You know the rock canyons in Utah you'll, see the same thing rock out all over the world is really is influenced by visionary experiences and then classically the absolute defining characteristic is the appearance of beings or entities in the art, and those entities are typically half human. And half animal they are as colder. Thirty am throb with us from the greek theory on which means wild beast and enterprise, which means man and this is one of the definitive aspects of deep visionary experience- is encountering entities who communicate with you and who are often often encountered in this. Half man half human form. So who is interesting that work done in the nineteenth sixties, with, for example, mescaline? They found that the volunteers were drawing the stuff they saw. And one of the volunteers drew a man in a business suit with the head of a fox

why that was an entity that had come and spoken to him in the in the Trans, like state, no different from them, with the head of a lion and the body of a human being that you find in HOLLAND, Stein, startled cave in Germany from thirty two thousand years ago, Oh, what do you think is going on there? Do you think that you're dealing with entities that don't really have a form that we can understand, so they present themselves in some cartoonish combination of things that we are aware of yeah. I think that I think that a good on a limb here, but I think that we dealing, I dont, believe consciousness is generated by the brain. I believe the brain is more of a receiver of consciousness. I think that's really important distinction. The mainstream model of consciousness that we have in our society today definitely sees it as produced by the brain. The same way a factory makes car so so the if you smashed up the factory the car stopped being made the ergo, if you, if the person

eyes, the brain dies consciousness is just legs out gone finished, that's the mainstream view, but the view at the other view, tat. The brain is a transceiver, a receiver of consciousness, that it is manifesting. It's the junction box that manifesting consciousness on the physical Rome that raises holding, possibilities, then, when you destroy the receiver, the signal is still there. Just as if you decide a tv set, the tv signal is still there and you get you get into all kinds of possibilities from that. So the suggestion that I derive from is that consciousness is fundamentally nonphysical, but that, for certain reasons- and they may be very deep and very mistake His consciousness has created realms in which it is possible to manifest physically, because in a physical round you have all kinds of consequences to your actions that you would not having a nonphysical state of physical round may be a very useful place to spend time if you're an

joint soul, who wishes to learn and grow and develop further That's how I ve come to see it. I think waiting we and that's how all ancient spiritual traditions see it that we did we incarnate in these bodies in order to have the experience of life on earth, but we don't die when we that, when these bodies die, these bodies are like a suit of clothes. That wearing for this inclination. I've always subscribe to the idea that creativity, when I met my best and most creative and when I'm performing doing Stanhope, stand up Kommeni at my best and most creative ivy much more like a passenger than I do a driver. I feel like when I'm writing. When I write my best stuff, I have no idea where it's coming from I'm not even really there some just moving my fingers and is coming to me. It's not even me doing it and it sounds ridiculous and you could say that, well, it's can really the ego gets in the way of creativity, because Europe is worrying about yourself. If you just put the ego aside, then your mind can work better see that argument, but I don't know,

it feels like it comes to me these great bursts of out of ideas that I never considered before I go with where's. That is that, maybe that's really thing that I'm finger down for tune in YAP utility shooting into it and you're becoming a channel for four for the material material you're, you're, you're, you're consciousness, is, is running the show. Your consciousness is not limited to this realm and and its drawing down material from from elsewhere. I've had the same experience with my with my writing, the more that I intellectualize the process- and this is particularly true since I've tend to fit the more that I intellectualize the process, the harder? The writing, because The sooner the sooner I let let off that intellectual control and just let it flow.

Better make it so strange comes in waves, though it's almost like you can't keep tuned in to the spiritual realm for any long period of time. I shake it off. I know after a few hours of writing my writing to starts to turn a shit, and we are yes it's off now. It's back to me. I was me writing and add. The right thing to do at that point is is, is actually till they laptop Yang. Let the laptop go. They're gonna break, save your work, a dragon tomorrow about its universal. You know this Stephen Press field book, the war of art that deals with the center, the music, it's a fantastic book and I used to buy stacks of given to people I get. We won right may recommending that I'm a big fan of press failed. I didn't know he'd written that books, arbitrary, brilliant work. You know. I think I have a copy of, and I will give you one in it, some the brilliant thing about it is it's real, no nonsense, but it's all about its no nonsense. Get do and put the work in forces have to do it. They don't make excuses, put organ, but then it's also about the muse is also about the idea that you are just

sitting there and putting yourself in a position to tune into it. You just have to show up. You show up you, he moved fingers you the and let them use come to you and that the muses real. Well, let me tell you I mean I have been a nonfiction writer. All my life I started out, as I mentioned in journalism, I've moved into asian mysteries, was nonfiction. Look a book like fingerprints of the guards or underworld the book about our tied, diving adventures, you'll find that there's two thousand footnotes, you know very there. They are. I hope there readable, but there also do no detailed researched documents, and that was the and if that was the kind of writer I was until I counted, I Oscar and when I encountered I was scared. I had I started working with I in two thousand and three and the reason I started work. I had to had one psychedelic experience: in nineteen seventy four with LSD and after them

was an amazing experienced by the way I had an most incredible night at the winds of free festival in England I spent the whole night wandering around. I had I kind of travelled back in time. It was like being in a sort of medieval in combat just incredible, but It came out of that experience. I thought to myself. I was twenty. I guess I was twenty four, then I thought when the other way, that was a really powerful experience. If that went the other way, I'm not sure would handle it. I thought it might really fucked me up, and I gotta be scared, and I- and I am I heard stories of others who had scary experiences. I thought I'm not gonna. Do that again. I didn't I didn't. I didn't take any psychedelic from the age of twenty four. Until let's see two thousand and three when I was first three years old and the reason that I started taking psychedelic again was because initially. It was my research project. I was writing supernatural. It was clear that the key that had been influenced by psychedelic. He was something I could There is for myself. I have always felt as a writer, I'm

be writing something if I'm not in it myself, I have to IRAN's it and which is why, when you're writing underworld, you learned how to die, diving and and and and ended up doing huge numbers of guys. All all all around the world is the way that I work and and and therefore it was logical for me to invest psychedelic? Once I started to write supernatural and I wanted to investigate them, diminish romantic setting, and I look rather says the subject. It became clear that the Amazon was the place to go, and I ask her with thousands of years of indigenous use in the Amazon was very, very interesting substance. Indeed to two to investigate, so I went down there and started to drink. I asked I was get worked chain, is on me in quite a number of ways. It's made me more thoughtful and reflective person in some ways about my behaviour in the impact of my behavior on others. I'm still get along go on that. They say in the Amazon that I ask is a school. Don't expect. You know instead

lighten, but actually all enlightenment is hard work and the hard work with I'll ask is integrating the revelations that it gives you, because it will one of the three That was good does. Is she does show you where you ve been cruel and hurtful an unkind to others, and she shows a cue from the other person's point of view. It's a lesson that you learn but then integrating back into your own behaviour in daily life is actually really difficult. Lifetime of bad habits are very hard to change, and work has to be done in To do that. So I was gonna has helped me to begin on that path. I do not claim to have reached any form of perfection very far from it. I'm a very imperfect, frail human being, but I have at least been set on the path, I believe is a more positive one, but then something else I was good gave me, and it happened because I asked for it I'd reached a point where I felt.

That I didn't want to go on with the investigation of the lost civilization subject anymore, not because I had lost interest in it or because I turned against it, but because I felt that I had taken it as far as I personally could, after some time had done six years of scuba diving all around the world. And literally put our lives on the line and had and had revealed a great deal of stuff underwater that people didn't know about. I felt actually I dont know where I take this next, their lot of young energetic people out there. I would like them to take it on now, for where were we took it from an I wanted. I wanted to look for a change of direction. I wanted to challenge myself as a writer and I'd always wanted to write a novel so down in Brazil over a series of five. I was processions. I I passed I was gonna. Can I write a novel and if so, what? What would I be writing about

amazing, happened in those five sessions. I was given the entire story of the novel by that writing, which is an overcoat, entangled whole story, what the character their dilemmas, the time travel aspect of the store, AEGIS, frantically. Writing it all down which tunnel Ramirez, very I wasn't even try to remember it was just very very clear, was very clear that I was right, a story and they would involve two young women, one in the stone age one in the modern times, and that they would be entangled that they would be connected through consciousness. And that they would be involved in in a battle of good against evil, and certain scenes came through very, very clear to me in step with Thirdly, in my mind, so soon as we finished in Brazil, I went back to England and started writing so, when you ask I Alaska, can you do it and what would it be about? You think at this than that I was gonna, wants you to do this because with which you do something like that, you have to say, I was think of any work.

I put out whether it's not even writing a blog or putting something a funny thing up on Twitter. You, you send out this signal and then the signals can affect. Who knows how many people in a positive way, especially something that they really enjoy reading like a book and people can say like. Why would I if you want to write a book. Some books are fuckin awesome! That's why and that that feeling of getting really hooked into a book and really just loving and I haven't read a good novel in a while. The strain was the last one that I really like for a while, but than hated- and I love the beginning of the third vampire when the ban, the Guerra Datura book. My point is the feeling is all a lot of positive energy associated with something that's really entertaining and gripping indefinitely. These in a highly effective way of way with communicating. I dont know whether I was good did this

me, but you they often say there's a song that night, I forget the song. You know you was the rolling stones either. Do you don't always get what you want? You get what you need. I was gonna does does that she tends to give you what you need, not always what you asked for I have set intense at the beginning of sessions, and I found myself going in a totally different direction, but these five sections were different. It was very, very clear here: is a story: go home and write it. It was very, I felt compelled to do it so these they affected you in that way. They created a huge effect on you. What would happen if it was legally available, as people were itself then use The war on drugs is actually suppressing human evolution? This is, it seems, able you're saying that through time these check it out, and then why do you think that since we're taking. Second half. Definitely definitely, whereas I get out every day, particularly the blue water, lily

sorry Leah, which is a potent psychedelic and William amateur. Not the State University Car Fournier has them published detailed research on on the blue water lily and on its psychedelic properties, and it was certainly used. They were journeys. They, though, when the ancient Egyptians explored the mystery of life after death, they were not sitting in some scrabble room just making this stuff up, they were investigating, they were exploring, they were separating my consciousness from the body and they were entering other realms and they were coming back and giving a detailed port about what they encountered there. The first I had ever heard of any of that was from John Anthony West Work and the work on the Temple of Man, which is really fascinating, that there's a temple and each area. Of the temple- signifies like a part of a human being, and there's a whole area about the pineal gland and they the Egyptians were in other

but the seat of the soul, and that they believe that it on gland was your connection to tell after life and make an hey. They were right. You know this because this is the. This is the mystery, that's the empty, which is the active ingredient by water, is generated by the penniless They believe that the budget has not really little was extravagance, hunch, better, better something in our bodies and the perennial gland is the most likely rest that's a big is sticking point. We are generating Dm T rise. The presence of DM tea in the human body is not in dispute. You're just coming from is in dispute right, but its presence in the body is not in dispute cool. It really comes from a pineal. Glad sounds kind of it comes from the third. I Tingley CS as a pioneer gland is: is it was originally a sense organs and so the suggestion would be that it still a sense organ to kind of sixth sense which the lens that it uses the empty and what people

realises that in reptiles and certain reptiles, it actually has a retina lens and lies instant. It he's a fucking eyeball. Its licence, videos in reptiles, inhuman acts, not its deepest some deeper into the brain, but but a very mysterious, very mysterious organ, and I would still say I you're right. It's not proved, I was still say the most likely candidate for the for the generation of DM two us. Draftsman is working on a figure that out right now their work on your detailed studies to try to actual exactly pinpoint the location. Excellent goods were its Korea glad this is above us. That's happening, I mean that you know. The point is that you are making just now. I think that I think that by cutting these ancient,

allies out of our life and by demonizing them in creating this atmosphere of heat, fear and hatred around them. This is a suicidal path that our society is taking, and we only need to look at the past in order to realise that that is true. There is danger in the human species that we get locked into a particular frame right now we are locked into the technology frame, of course, we're advancing technology very, very very fast, but that doesn't mean we are locked, we're locked into one frame and we are now thinking outside of that frame, and, and we can see the consequences of being locked into that frame, which is our world is in chaos. Is it in a state of hatred and fear. Suspicion right now, there's all this horrible stuff going on and we are literally on the edge of destroying ourselves and there's never been a time

the human story, when we ve more needed to break out of our rigid patterns of behaviour and start thinking about things from a different point of view, and nature has provided us with the means to do so. This means are our plant allies, its a fascinating concept and the concept that human beings are working against themselves and their their working to keep things fucked up and make them more and the only way to sustain a society as complex and large invasive as the one we currently live, and the only way to do it the way we're doing it and then, Alison, psychedelic drugs were introduced in the materialism was a sort of pushed in the back burner and spiritualism was something that people you know, started really understanding and appreciate their connection more with a vaccine gonna work. Yet this is gonna, be China. The chickens we want things went fishing only dug its next would become very different. The fact is that our existing economic model is falling apart, at the seams anyway.

Living in misery in doubt, and chaos and confusion because it is just not working is not working. Is that the whole thing is not working any such I d that can stand back while the Amazon Jungle is burnt down at the sort of country sized rate every year. This is an insane society. We obviously live in a demented society completely insane. A lot of people are even aware of how crazy that looks. If you watch it, you see documentaries our line of the mass amounts of forest. Their chopping down? Bizarre! That's right! That's why it's interesting, but this particular agent I was gonna comes from me. I was now mean I can help I can't help feeling either in the Amazon. They strongly believe that an intelligent entity lies behind the I was out of line and she she they always speak of her. She most of the cultures do is using the vine as an access point to humanity. Damn I just lost my thread: humbug,

that will now. That's actually about one hundred in Amazon, interesting to hear yes, exactly exactly that that, at the very time when our western the logical culture is, is responsible for mass destruction in the Amazon which it is and by the way, it's a problem that could be easily solved. We don't need to destroy the Amazon. We really dont need those soybean farms in the Amazon to feed capital so that people can eat hamburgers, thus, We much more need the rain forest, you know so the time that the Amazon is under threat from the west and way of life, which is infected. Almost every culture on the planet At that very time, the Amazon is sending out its emissary in the form of the of souls who is, kind of extending her court old Sinew s cell. All around the world and reaching into human consciousness everywhere, because I was case being drunk all around the world every, whereas I Agnes either I've met someone on Facebook, you you take regularly there. That's a cop,

carbon you go to jail. No net psych short: are they cut the shit bowers? There's a name should be both people use nets. These patterns like he like he showed their like. They need That is exactly what you are saying that are on the cave was like the hundred battered they did. They like create these beautiful quilt. The quelled they do. He s here, just incredible depictions of what apparently, the ILO conventions geometric aspect of. Do you ever think of how much you play a part of the design of refocus? On your mind, mean you're in thinks obviously were to produce his book and to talk about it very openly and honestly and to do interviews like this and have discussions like this. We talked about it and you know this right now is going to reach a half a million people. Consider what you're saying and I got to look into it and they're going to let go while do you really? there's some fuckin vine. You can take from the jungle that allows you to communicate with a spear world. I feel a final responsibility in this area

that's explained to me, but what it does refer for news forget or not aware what I was and is the first thing I'd like to say is that that I was Ganz met if at all, psychedelic of very serious business I personally do not believe this academics are appropriate for recreational activity. I think, if somebody chooses to do that, does their body thus their choice, but I don't think it's the right thing to do. We need to treat these amazing substances with respect and its anybody. His weight with psychedelic will know absolutely that the set and setting in which the psychedelic is concerned, is as important as the second pillar get some absolutely where what you ve prepared. What what you are looking for from the experience of the company in which you take it and the reason for which you take it are definitely going to color and a faint they experience and

I think it, sir. I think it's a mistake to use these powerful agents of of consciousness work for recreation. There are other great things for recreation and and and another great sensual subjects such as substances, but but the psychedelic had not for that purpose and and and if somebody wants to have a really bad trip and have an have truly horrific experiences with psychedelic, take it in the wrong set and setting, and you can be pretty she s going to happen to you sooner or later. So I was first thing I'll say to people with, with all psychedelic says, be careful. This is this respect at risk respect deep respect for this. This is this is a very serious thing. You're, engaging on therefore find a fight find a space that can be proven find somebody who knows what they're doing who who can sit with you and and who can overstated Caesar and bring a ceremony to the to the table. Let's not just sit down disrespectfully disrespectfully in and consume subs

Let's sir, let's bring a ceremonial aspect to it and I would say, with eyewash guy I know that quite a number of people now have started to get the ingredients on the internet and blew up there. I will ask, I honestly think that mistake. There are people who are enormously experienced working with I was scared. They are. The shipments from the Amazon more and more westerners are being trained by those shamans. Those westerners are returning to western countries and are creating new form of chauvinism, relevant to the urban and industrial context of the of the west If you really want to work with, I was could seek out somebody like that better still, if you couldn't, if you can get the funds together, go down to Brazil or go down to Peru and work with the masters, but but how did you find the masters Well, it's all word of mouth there is. There is a!

a huge network, I'm I'm often reminded of sort of underground sects at the end of the roman empire, like the gnostics, you know being persecuted by the bye, bye, mainstream Christianity, where everything was done by word of mouth is like that with eyewash can now, generally speaking, if you feel drawn to the vine. Do some serious research on the subject, and you will find your way to the to the right, but there are some charlatans working in this field. There are in all fields, but there are also some very good people Anne and do some serious research first and look into the subject and find the right person. Somebody who is deeply experienced, who understands the vine and work with them, and you can be sure of it- much more worthwhile experience. Whatever series of events lead you to go there and take those substances and have these visionary experiences and then relay them. Do feel as if you were compelled that you were brought to it like this, is you you have a purpose. Do not feel that way. I know I. If so it's like them

the course of my life. A series of accidents, like I flew into that city in northern Ethiopia. Nineteen eighty three in and found myself in front of a monk who said he had the arc of a covenant behind him tat the direction of my life ok. I decided that, after after I published underworld, which was my last book on the loss of issues, I always been interested in human origins and that's why I decided to write supernatural, but when I got into the subject, found that the story didn't get interesting until fifty thousand years ago, and it got interesting because of psychedelic advance. It was an accident the lead me to that then obvious. The next research conclusion was: I had to go, take some psychedelic and to do so in a semantic setting and learn about it site I was a series of accidental decisions. Kind of lead me led me to that process. I'd I'd, I guess I don't feel cold or chosen, but but but I found myself in nazi- do feel obligated, though, because you know so much about it, but I feel obligated I feel, and I feel the responsibility

which is which is too is to share with others that these some, that these agents can be transformational and that and that they can be incredibly helpful, but that they are also extremely powerful they must be treated with respect, and there is real and here's here's a thing. Everyone is right around looking for magic, everyone is right around looking for a religious experience you can have that you really can. It is a real thing, doesn't care whether you believe in it or don't believe in it. It's dogmatic is a legit thing, and if we take it, you have an experience that we cannot believe is real and available, cannot believe that it so easy that you drink this substance and all of a sudden you, you literally enter into some different dimension. That's right! It's it's that Israel and that's why the three? Not a man- for intellectual speculation. It it's it's a direct

sperience that what has happened, then what you make of the experiences is really what matter he's almost like you, the people who ridicule it. You'll like it, might be. No one when people mark mushrooms, like they ever even talk to meet your Kokoo users, who are made physicist and is really brilliant guy, and I was on the Opie and Anthony Show, and I asked him if he had any. Said like I was like I was a fool he was actually. I was a fool. I goes a silly personnel. I need my mind to be intact, and all this stuff is he's never done much. How can you know what it does to his mind? Unlike us, his prejudices, unlike my God, man you're. This would if it was real if it was real, would you trust me what if they ve? If I told you that there was some real thing and you taken you're gonna, be in communication with some insanely wise entity from some parallel or constantly surrounding you dimension. Would you just try when you try it? He has vast. That's the problem that we are talking about here. Is the gay Mitchell Kokoo yea,

genius should remain conditions, and so imagine genius came in contact with. Something is right now this spirit. Whatever you want to call it it's right now the majority of a lot of people, its contacting her like sixteen year old and trailers light the Xbox, like I'm trying to communicate a high level information. Why are you sending me you'll be a case of something to tell you that I have to say that? That's that's, I'm not sure that's the case, but I was not the mushroom light. A whole number of reason, measure mushrooms for sure bed, but is not the case with idea so difficult for yeah. I ask is really a mission. I mean you have to brace yourself I was gonna is hard work. I was good, will make you vomit. It will give you diarrhoea, they called it the page in the Amazon and it is an enormously effective. Peg innovation My word for it, we still have to explain to the new jobs to people really have no idea we're talking about. What would I ask it is: is an oral

the active version of the empty and that these Amazing people from found whether our have before it is a date back, and they found that proves archaeological evidence for the use of. I was going back more than four thousand years in the Amazon, and, though, somehow another four thousand years ago, out of hundreds of thousands of different plants right, figured out a combined the vine of one with the leaves of another and sophisticated piece of chemistry, the explained the people. What is so they I ask. It consists of three ingredients. One of them is water, the medium in which its brood The other two are a leaf that leave is from a plant called psychiatry, reduces the botanical name because shut Gruner in the Amazon. And that leaf contains pharmacological pure die trip. Demeanor contains the empty which your own body with your own body, makes. Without with DM two, you have a problem, because the it is not orally active and the rest,

but the empty is not orally active- is the have an enzyme in our stomachs. Monterrey, mean oxidize and model I mean oxidation switches off the empty, on contact, What they did in the Amazon Jungle was that they found out of actually does your right there's a hundred and fifty thousand different species of plants in trees. I am a great cloud, the one other contains a motto: Amy Knox days: inhibitor cheese, that's what the vine can. The vine actually does not contain the psychedelic ingredient. It contains ingredient that allows the psychedelic to become orally active, so do they just ate the tomb of the same time once and had some crazy experience. When I write that down on about this, they all say the same thing: the spirits taught our answers

to do when these guys are getting blast, and I ask for decades upon decades, though they think that you're really recall exactly how they learned all this right, and I did a lady to their lifetimes because it was already old knowledge to them by speaking of their of their ancestry. Lady literally say that the plant spoke to them. I play fabled article about how to do it again and ran reached out to them and said put this together and it had to be during the war. We had to be at least as recent as they figure harness fire. Yet you know and make

they took it? Yes, you need a metal cracked by nine upon now you can read it. We're gonna party could any canoes ceramic cooking ceramic, so it could predate metal, definite, predates, definitely predates model here, not it's an amazing thing that they ve combined. Didn't. Do you think that it's not orally active, because it's in so many different plants that if it was that people would just be eating getting hired the anti overtime beside nature, is our friend in these matters? Nature looks after us and- and that may be the case that is not so widely distributed. The mystery is that it is present in quite a lot Actually I that mixed with with the money I mean oxidize inhibitor, you end up with an early active substance and is that without work, if you wanted to you- and I of course a hundred percent agreed you there, you should go to charm and you're going to do this experience day. If you did happen

leave the urine talking about and just a classic embryo inhibitor whatever it wasn't? You took that an eight believe. Would you then add the eggs very dangerous, though it's kind of does Russia do you would but there are what the collar analogues, which it sure, and an even farm Alaska is being spoken of now, which does precisely that which uses a pharmacological? Am I I you know with dirty I think of my I think personally, we don't need to go there, because nature has provided us with this beautiful. An incredible possibility in the in the eye was approved in the round these two different plants, Interestingly, it's not impossible to drink. I was good legally in the United States because the battle is already being fought here, the they're in Brazil. I was a chauvinism.

Come out of the jungle and into the cities, and it's taken form For several weeks. Colson Critic churches, which a mixing Ellen of Christianity. With elements of traditional chauvinism, so the best known other Santo day May and the union division Tao, which, both use. I was gonna as their sacrament I've sat down. With the union vegetal Group in Brazil and drunk I Lhasa. They were most charming, theurer, professional, hardworking people I could ever have hoped to meet they bring their children sessions. They start their children. I was God the age of fourteen. They have a completely different view of psychedelic to the view that we have they. They believe that it's really helpful and important experience for humanity to have this. Unfortunately, the government of Brazil agrees with them and it doesn't persecute them for free MR, they have formed, establish churches and those churches? Have members in the United States nothing

started in New Mexico. The matter was taken up to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court's ideas. If your member of the universe tell you can drink, I was coming Now that actually, for somebody who wants to work with eyewash goes something that I would recommend, I personally don't, drawn to establish churches of any kind, I believe that spirituality doesn't require a church and a hierarchy. But the fact is that in our view, the vegetal on the Santer Demi both know what they're doing with I'll ask they absolutely no one. There and they are present in the United States and they are drinking. I was illegally in the United States. Draftsman told me, straws told me he met with them in New Mexico any said they are wearing outfits and their drinking. I was caught and singing songs about Jesus. There is really really strong eyewash trips and singing songs about Jesus, and he was I'd. What the fuck are. You

people doing down here. It's it's such a strange, hybrid, of the very strange, a Trojan horse realise how hybrid, but but I mean interesting enough if we, if we separate cry off from the monstrous Bureaucracy called the church, you do find an interesting spiritual teacher at work and, respect through. I was gonna getting closer to the true to the true spiritual teaching, and and and more important Iowa. Gaze not mediated by a priesthood. I Alaska is your own direct experience of the Spirit wrong. That's that's! That's really important whereas in most mainstream religions the priesthood is telling you what to think they are the Inn. Media between us and the divine. Only in the case of water, the bruise the end

the jury and it plugs a straight into the divine necessarily about asked her to join sitting, highlights and reading the new tasks- and I was one of my favorite things- is getting really really I tripping in reading and try this gospels, because it is a very, very psychedelic text. The book John it's it's almost its eye when you're tries hard not to eat when you're silver, but when you're tripping in the beginning was the word in the word was made, Lasher is this, what is that, when you start being someone wrote this like this was in unison, really meant this when they wrote a little longer, and it's very, very trippy side in totally Is there not being on I'll ask from what you described the experience as in mixing now of Christ? Symbols could be

amazing, along the line with Mckenna thought of you ever you're, familiar with John Margo, leg rose, work and the whole idea. Ed cease Klingle less women across Europe very much so an and other again. This has been. This is another thing that has been raised from history, but the fact of the matter is that if you into early Christianity. What you find is a mushroom cult, no doubt about it whatsoever, no doubt or that there are even now there are even depictions of the tree in the garden of Eden and those patients show a mushroom. They show they show specifically at how many to miscarry a mushroom, not satisfied and an eminent miscarry, also highly pollution agenda, mush mushroom, so you know when the entity called you know your way Jehovah or what whatever he calls himself drove Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden. He was driving my the garden of Eden, cause they ve done.

It makes sense, and then the apple. The apple apple, though, do even the word for apple, also means red and that the mushroom, the M Anita Miscarry, was a red mushroom, and why is this? What the eight may make sense, the food of the gods and forbidden fruit? It makes total sense, and I say I don't believe that we can understand any spirituality without dealing with all the states of justness. This is some. This is again something that's been lost in the modern world. You don't find in most of the mainstream religions. Much altered state of consciousness going on. But if you go back to the origins you find or two states of consciousness are deeply involved, are not saying that those two states of consciousness were always caused by psychedelic, there's other ways to get into deeply altered states of consciousness, including starving yourself, fasting austerity, certain kinds of rhythmic dancing but definitely altered, stated

since we have also in the case of Christianity, at Saint Paul of Damascus Road. You know he has this blinding revelation, which completely turns his life around in a totally different direction, Benny, Shannon who's. The professor of psychology at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem has made a very powerful case that Moses in front of the burning bush is really a psychedelic experience, including describe their leaders, arrogant, found the body and it's kind of moving and glowing and a voice is coming out of it and speaking to you is very psychedelic experience, They even further argues that that Moses may have been drinking, and I will ask analogue syrian ruin. Mimosa stillness. I think these are two products which contain the same ingredients as are found. In the Amazon by you, know that empty em away. I, which grow in the Middle EAST so Sir, you know: that's that's possible too. I've even heard got scholars connect the acacia tree or the Acacia Bush, with a pop

Tangible source of psychedelic experience, because apparently it's rich and trip to me some. I of Learning Bush, but you know like somehow another like this was laid their synthesize the anti from this and burned it, and then he has its experience to the calling it a burning. Bush. Well. Sort of Unita mean if this Bush, that that is common to that area actually has the emptying at the summit amazing with holes. Interesting idea was different. So, and so we, u you begin to realise that that when you screw, The major religions you get down to base ground before the money man and the bureaucrats stepped in and took it over you. Fine visionary experiences are at the heart of it. There are the essence of it and then later on, those visionary experiences become band the legal and nobody's ever allowed to have them again when I want to go back to something you said earlier that you said you have problems with technology and I think a sort of

you know a lot of people subscribe to the idea that technology sort of, even though it brings people together and connect people, it sort of pushing people part two and its main people become. So desensitized a lot of things and in the alienate themselves and sit at home and play video games, and do you ever since The possibility that technology is a life form and of itself D ever do the possible that we are somehow in it a locked and some symbiotic relationship to. We are the worker bees, creating this new life form and that make technology Artificial intelligence, which we absolutely working in creating will eventually be the next day, something that's not hindered by the monkey flesh that really cannot evolve as quickly as the technology can. I see no reason why that should not be the case. I think that since I, personally believe that the consciousness is not generated by the brain, but is an independent entity which chooses to immerse itself in physical form. I don't see why there and they shouldn't chose to immerse itself mechanical form either

can any highly organised system I don't see why consciousness should not manifest through that system. Why are we thinking that it always go to work in a collection of bacteria and cells in others? This bag of bacteria is the only one that works covered. A symbiotic relationship between who knows how many different types of things in your body co lie in all these different things on your skin, and you know, and in an viruses, carry for your entire life you see me it's on the internet video later bids, you artificial intelligence me and let them have a conversation ass, they started y know each other. They like having to say that Larry's, it's amazing, but within a minute, they're talking about God, we have many things are talking about a guy in a thousand dollars first time- I realise that- oh you know- I bet you. Our idea of this robot did the people make is more like terminator? You not. I mean this like the kind of way

emotionless deaf. Ms, yes exactly, but maybe, if something super intelligent. First thing these machines are going to start consider he is their source, namely how the humans made a negative thing who made the humans, and where did these ideas, come from, but they're gonna process ideas working around here at a mega speed and that's going to produce, the new religion or that's gonna, produce the next big, whatever Jesus, it's gonna, be a robot annexing beer a machine- I just don't have any problem at all with the notion of consciousness in making it a machine that seems to be perfectly perfectly reasonable and besides Theres many machinelike functions of the human body. I mean we ve learned machines to gear. We, our machines, is a video we ve talked before about the watching traffic go back and forth and high speed, camera, slow motion or others are spent a brother throughout the day that it looks just like cells in blood cells going down an artery death, definitely and the unites re interesting I mean you get to the

to the issue of the M, the origins of life and, of course, you touching deep, religious issues where we were we created in some way. I think that the universe, the conclusion I'm coming Who is that the the universe, some manifests organization and life wherever it can as a as as as a as a medium in which consciousness can impose itself and that that that this may take many different forms and shapes with the key that was driving at his consciousness and the need for consciousness first, on the physical plain I mean, make a trivial example, but I think all of us have had this experience. You know without computers, where some there's some kind of interaction between you and your computer. In some ways. It seems that I remember once I had it was. It was most curious thing. I had just got a new computer and my old computer

had increasingly annoyed me because, when I was saving I, when I had finished document on Microsoft word, it tell me that made new changes which I needed to save, which I haven't done it kept saying you want to save the changes that you just made. I hadn't done that finally with other glitches on machine. It got so annoying. I decided to get myself another computer and that computer was working fine. I was sitting in front of it one then I was thinking how awful it would be if it started manifesting that same fault and instantly. The same fault came up on my computer, it did that. So I couldn't help feeling that shitty Microsoft coding, yet I should be, but it was reacting. Nevertheless, the way it reacted to my thoughts rose was odd. Anne and you know I animals most people most, but most people would argue. Perhaps humans have a sober animals. Dont have a so I think we also, I think soul consciousness is the essence of everything, and I think

manifesting in all forms? A? U S, incredibly, lucky that we have manifested in human bodies because we got this body with its equipment. Is an incredible opportunity for learning and growing and developing, and we got much better opportunity to learn and growing other than a fruit fly or a cockroach does have you ever looked in any rubric. Shell drinks work we entirely out of it more remarkable man, fascinating work and the idea that everything has some sort of memory to guess, perhaps even a consciousness to yet I more lives, it feel yeah. That's right! That's right! and he's some he's doing really. Good science on really metaphysical subjects right now, one of the few people whose whose whose doing that so he's he's looked at I like the sense of being stared at people know when they being said on. Even when they can't see the person is staring at them and the phenomenon of animals knowing when their master is going to come home even when the master himself doesnt quite know, yet they

that's what he's doing he's studying that in a very scientific way and he's producing statistically significant results which show that these phenomena definitely do what's boy to people's fight him tooth and nail read some of them. The critiques of his work is so angry or people used solely for us very angry because again it's it's kind of throwing the existing paradigm upside down threat in the air and saying that we all connected by these more for genetic feel and it's not showing a perfect connection either showing a measurable one showing signs of something there. There's something there and its probably increasing, involving just like Our ability to communicate was grunts and noises and then eventually evolved into the written word. You now and now, cds and mp3 me it's it's all evolving and our ability to sense when people staring at us probably something is evolving. There's probably energy that comes off of you when you look at me and I just I can sense it when I'm looking away makes sense and it only makes sense,

it's so strange and so strange that these are all things that people so struggled to. Consider that if you do talk about them in your serious guy, we have you talk about them. You run into cooks, Ville Alison Europe mean you went so deepen kooks fell back there. You wrote a book about more. I did this is. This is where you really take a chance tat. A lot of my readers, their region, backpack body, really yeah bet that unites seem to me. It seems to be an interesting subject that was worthy of exploration, that what was called the Mars, MR, was written with Robert of oxygen from Greece. Now. This is the one I bought it, but it did not read this one. Does this have a lot to do aside Dounia in the face on Mars? Well, that's actually much less than you'd think about we try to set those in context. I do think Sidonia is extremely interesting. What, I made. My part of that book was mainly about cosmic. Cataclysms is clear that the planet planet Mars has been set the most horrific disaster.

There's some scientific evidence would suggest this may have been pretty recent. Like the last twenty thousand years, I'm enquire half of the planet is like miles higher than the other half soviet measure. You take her a little ball and and cut a line round its equator, and then you peel off the let the outer layer of the lower half a man. You leave the upper hand, ass. It as it was there's a cliff. A mile high runs all the way around Mars and is something dramatic and disastrous happened to that planet. There was definitely water on that planet flowing water and something took it away. Very, very horrible cosmic cataclysm occurred struck by a gigantic asteroid, or comment most likely and we have these odd ruins or what looked like ruins, which NASA behaves very oddly about on the planet and I just think it's an extremely interesting mystery and I decided to try

but my mind to work on this mystery and see. If I could add anything to the debate, I thought ass interesting until her what he more easily sorry what we want which NASA behaves? Oh yes, well! Well, because, because some NASA is some has consistently ridiculed. The notion that there might be there might be intelligently created artifacts on Mars, seems to be a most unscientific proposition. We have have a photographs and on the basis of those photographs, it's not good to assume that they are monument sport, that they are not monuments. We need to keep an open mind, take take them, We are talking here about the Yonah Bunni underwater Monument. I mean you can we bring to geologists too that monument you can put them in front of it. For half an hour and they'll come away with completely different opinions about what is so so how can we form really useful opinions on the basis of photography alone? You know fuck this up Hoagland

Well, for guy goes to deep. He gets too crazy, richer. Hoagland he's one of the guys who invested a huge chunk. Was life too proving that side Dounia is an artificially created complex and he makes giant leaps in these weird connections, where he measures like random distances between points and now and then and shows that they have a direct correlation between distances that can be measured on in Egypt and the geese. A terrible. You measure that each Follow where he's going. You like goddesses, is riddled with confirmation. Bias is riddled with this idea that your trial define this connection. Yeah there's some stuff there, though it's unusual the face this kind of looks like a mountain to me, but was odd, is the shape of its. It is odd that it's, it's kind of some magazines beg to differ. I think that I think the rigid hoboes works important and I think he some, I think, has shown great courage in putting his neck on the line. Whether here

right or whether he is wrong. This is a subject as worthy of of exploration. I certainly agree with that, but I don't agree with how he approaches thanks to some time, but you know you know, sometimes what happens if you get this polarization when you get when you get extreme academic positions? No, we will not listen to this. We will not believe this. We could not accept any of this, its total rubbish. It tends to make you more extreme. On the other side as well, you get the unit you you get, some crazy from the resistant, yeah, yeah and and and and you need to know you need to keep on. You need to keep on pushing serenely. Someone behind him. Give him back rub concern about Richard you're crazy. I thought I'd like a pair of it. In my opinion, Richard is a good man. Good research, I think he's I think, he's done. I think he's done important work on Mars and and and those who you know those who who put rigid down, maybe eating their words, untenable:

he is time, may very heavily my words there's homage median, I'm sorry them a professional shit dog is something to be put fun out, especially a guy who believes in others a face on Mars, while at this, some of the things that I think are very compelling. Five sided pyramids, yet mother structures and I'm not saying he's right or wrong. I'm saying that question needed to be asked in any needed to be asked forcefully right, cause it's up against resistant and it needed He asked in a way that would engage the public imagination and when you say what you said earlier, it doesn't seem a real unreasonable at all. If you say that the half of Mars is like litter destroyed a mile lower will obviously something cataclysmic happen and then the absolute proof they Verde found those water on Mars and there has been flowing rivers all sorts of evidence of that by not shit if their structures here, how amazing would it be? If just fifty six,

thousand years ago. There was a goddamn civilization right up there on Mars route for real. We were existing at the same time. They were existing and then we had parallel developed. Could they be some interaction? This is. This is This is an interesting question. Is a question worth asking a question, and and and I'm glad that somebody was prepared to devote you know half of his life to to exploring investigate, even if he is wrong I'm glad it's not even that is wrong because he goes crazy. Our Bela were, he have slightly knows, and this has been proven and, like I say it's, there is, I heard a reservation effect at stole. It makes sense I mean I would imagine it's gotta be incredibly difficult to be taken seriously with any of this stuff and you have

shown incredible bravery and putting forth all this stuff is making a lot of shit. I'm sure you have man a lot I mean the worst was the worst was really being set up by the BBC, and I saw that I was gonna bring that up if it came up and he died away and I suppose it's kind of a bleak honor, that's A BBC Horizon, which is their flagship science programme, chose to spend three quarters of a million dollars destroyed my reputation, but that's what that's what happened now six weeks before I heard from them. I got a call from a friend and television and he said, Graham, you gonna get a call from horizon and they're gonna ask you to appear in interview on a show about you, and he is my advice, say now: they're going

did you up. The whole thing is intended from the beginning as an operation to destroy you with the motivation, and you will not get a fair hearing and he said the best thing you could do is just nodded. Show so when they rang me up. I immediately said yes Was there motivations industry? While the motivation was clear- and I learned about this afterwards, which was a group of academics from various universities in Britain, had written to the BBC and said this man Hancock is leading our students to question our archaeology and he's totally irresponsible and he's just riding popular books for the public, but he's having such an impact. He needs to be stopped and we need a programme about him which really shows how full of shit he is basically about ha done so, and that was the agenda of the programme from the beginning was not to give a fair hearing to the ideas that I explored, but to demonstrate that I was full of shit

and it was very difficult to get any kind of fairness in that situation, especially when in the cutting room, dirty tricks were played, and that's why I rubbed the values also in that programme with me, and he and I took the BBC to the Broadcasting Standards Commission, and it was the first time in thirty five years of broadcasting of horizon, but they were found fault. They were found produced an unfair programme. We listed ten points of unfairness. Only one of them was accepted as unfair by the Broadcasting commission. Nevertheless, it was the first time in the three of that programme that they were actually found to have been deliberately. And they have to make a return I wouldn't lie. They were obliged to reiterate the program and produce a second version of it, which was fairer in quite a number of ways. I I think that the other nine points we raised where we're right as well, but the tenth one was

one that we really caught the male blows. That John and while this was to do with the arrived correlation and the fact that they had they had damn not presented our side of the story. They simply presented. The academic side of the story had not allowed us to answer this was so. This was unfair, so that impression was good did that we had no answer to this objection. I saw the documentary or whether we want to call it was horrible, is a real attack, peace, but then I also read your response to it, which really covered. Every single area that day in and then you read your responsible, oh wow, I mean it's really amazing that they were able to put together that that sort of a biased, bullshit peace idea. But my response, Vienna was read by a tiny fraction of Isley who actually saw the show and that that should actually did have a devastating effect. Today, the first day, some on somebody put it on my message board when I said that you're gonna be in the park, ass was being discussed. Somebody put on the message port, but

actually someone else had your your response to it and now than it was better and it was such a young waste actually pointed out at the time he wrote a letter to be easy to be busy with crowd. You know they were trying to sail up. Only one of the ten points was unfair, so that's not that's not too bad and at the point on westward made was no that's the only, point, that you were able to really get caught out on, it's like they caught Al Capone out on tax evasion, doesn't mean he was innocent of all the other eyes he was accused of Anthony West get stuck on the outside, because he does never degree rains outcome with. Here is not an easy he's, not a professionally qualified egyptologist that he's the best egyptologist. I now brilliant magical, Egypt, DVD Syrians, what right up wonderful jobs, a great what is the dvd series? No less than twenty times over and over my wife was getting. She was yelling at me

I can't believe you're watching magical Egypt again, she was like you're, crazy, you're, crazy person like this is fascinating. Do you know what they knew? You know how much they news incredible. We're gonna done. John West has done and testing work on Egypt and anybody whose travelling to Egypt get hold of John West's travel is key to ancient Egypt, which is by far by a planetary distance. The best guidebook has ever been written on Egypt, because that will plunge into the mystery of Egypt in a way that no other, but does he has once more how credible, cleaner sister anger. You go do I'll ask a ceremony in the Amazon and Deep sea diving. Danger. If he's a real Indiana Jones Man, Indiana Jones, real Buzz, Lightyear Europe, prime candidate resign, he's probably get sucked into some kind of war

yeah you, my son, my it is tat. It is an incredible resume when you think about the fact that you do the description of those dives man current witness the BBC thing. The reason I bring out of its biggest it's not as though you just studying fine picture, as it is looking at a reading information and then coming up with some idea of your down under the water. Looking at this stuff, first, I will work I've work. I've put my I put my life on the line and I've made an honest and sincere attempt to provide some balance to the grotesquely imbalance picture of our history that is presented by mainstream archaeology. This is this is what I fundamentally see my role as being you know, I'm per portrayed as though by the BBC. As this person, you know who's selling these wild theories to the public through wider. Now

kind of glib magic, but actually what I see myself, as is somebody who say, hang on there might have been another way. Things could have been different. The way that being told things were there's enough problems with that to raise some questions and I'm going to look at those questions and I'm gonna document them unexamined them and, let's see what they come to. I do not insist that there was a lost civilization. I think its highly probable. I think it has been missed by the mainstream, and so I tried to do, was provide balance to a very biased picture, rather than try to completely overthrow the picture up, simply trying to balance it and that's never see tonight I feel I feel in that area I was treated very unfairly but hey,

the BBC Horizon experience was really good learning experience for me, I needed my ego taken down a beggar to Ethel S like about experience in and of itself in and of itself yeah. If you'd ass, I was I was, I was ready for. I was get a kick me up the ass. Well, thank you very much for joining us man. I can't thank you enough. This was such a huge treat for me is, like I said, you're your book, prince of the gods really just changed the way I looked at everything changed the way I looked at human history changed the way I looked at the academic study of human history and went what people I too want to believe and not believe and how much they want to throw everything that they ve learned aside or pushed aside, or everything into teaching It's it's amazing. It's amazing work for people that are sceptical. You need to just look at some of the photographs. Look at some of the further bow back, as I would call now that could lead to their family and ten thousand ton. Megaliths

We need to see them there and it doesn't even how tall, whether they again sanely taller ten feet tall and oh no much more than that of the huge megalith in involving Gobi under feet, long hundred feet long one stone, but where was a cut price more than a thousand tonnes, not far, not far that that was carried quite locally, but first tons, come on- and what is the explanation, they academic explanation for that. They say that that Temple was built by the Romans as temple of Jupiter drummonds moved. Does bookstore I would say that what happened was that a much older culture created that big stone structure and then, on top of it, the Romans built template. Jupiter. So ten thousand plus years ago. Something happened, I believe so I think it was the end of something. What you told me thousand years ago was the end not the beginning, that was that was That was the time when the meltdown of the ice age was added, one of its most extreme periods,

The actual meltdown of the ice age took ten thousand years to unfold, but within that ten thousand years there were three or four episodes of gigantic flooding. Where you had thirty foot rise of sea levels very rough, Eventually overnight. Do you consider what a thirty foot sea level rise would do to our civilization today would wipe out every coastal city? I may look America's still reeling from Hurricane Katrina? Imagine what would happen if every coastal city, when, under thirty feet of water it they were designed, to destroy any civilized. So was a climate change thing. You think I was only a climate change, but but but you know, the the cataclysmic explanation of firm ice caps is to do with the polish shipyards and to do with the with the mechanism called earth. Crust displacement, which was first proposed by Charles, have good, and I go into visit that at some length him and fingerprints of the gods. The notion that that the outer crust of the earth, rather like the sort of skin of an orange, could

move around the fruit, the inner core of the earth that the court, the crust, good move and therefore in habits, theory ice form, on areas of the crust that are close to one or other pole. That makes sense the poles are cold, but when the crust shifts. Moves that cold area into a war. Merrier move closer to the equator makes all the I smell. And meanwhile new. I starts the foe form on the new pole, so that theory explains the meltdown of the ice age, not as a result of climate change, but as a result of character. Cosmic earth movements and then explains also ancient man

of Iceland. Greenland does it does. I think the maps are a very important question, which I do not see any academic providing a good answer to their our maps. Almost always these maps turn out to be copies of earlier maps. The Pyrenees map is a famous example. He tells he was a turkish admiral and he tells us actually enhance its own handwriting on the fragment of the map. It has survived that he based his was a world map. We ve only got one corner of it that he bases are more than a hundred source ass, none of which have survived. This was the case with the around his map and some of the Magter maps as well. They were drawing on ancient maps which no longer we didn't come down to us so these were drawn within relatively recent history within the last thousand years, but they were copying much older maps

a thousand years any thousand years older, and so it is very interesting when we find anomalies on these maps, for example, our culture discovered Antarctica in eighteen. Eighteen, before that maps that would be drawn around one thousand eight hundred. They showed an empty hole where Antarctica is, but if you go back to the fifteen hundreds of one thousand four hundred when they were copying these older maps, I haven't come down till she fine talk to you on Single one of them, that's incredible, on every single one of them and and it's kind of a bit bigger than now when it comes close to an almost touchy South America, just as it did during the last ice age, you'll find off the coast of Ireland. Little circular island, with the legend on its called high Brazil, that Ireland is about a hundred and twenty miles west of the West Irish Coast If you look at sea level rise, you find that twelve found

years ago and earlier, an island of exactly that size and exactly that shape existed in exactly that. Sport and it was covered, rising sea levels twelve thousand years ago, and it shows up on this map like a ghost? That has to mean to too has to mean that somebody was around twelve thousand years ago, who had at least developed sufficient technology to explore the world map attack. And a flood killed all the anti flood destroyed it all. Your convinced in the flood I say- I'm not I'm not here with the belief system I'm the evidence, I'm here with anomalies and problems in the mainstream, in the mainstream model and and what the evidence suggests to me very very strongly. Is that those cataclysmic earth changes at the end of the year and even regardless, whether a pole, shifter a crystal displacement was involved. Nobody can dispute that the meltdown of the ice age was cataclysmic

when you go outside and I'm sorry huge amounts of volcanic activity and it involves tremendous releases of water. So the ice would actually accumulate in play sea legs for thousands of years. It would melt slowly slowly melt and then said, really. This is the mainstream model, suddenly the the banks of the ice. Damn that held back that water. First and the whole mass of four thousand years meltwater would pour down into world ocean in one moment and and and the water descending from the top of the ice cap would reach speeds of six hundred miles an hour and they were a wave height of close to a thousand feet. It then tears ass, the landscape that lies below the ice cap- and you see this is still the scab lads of New Jersey, the finger Lakes of New York state. These are the results of those. Massive outburst floods that then tear of terror across the land. Pour into the water and wash up go see level. While

holy shit. Could you imagine, thousand foot high wave just tearing across the entire continent, it happened if we had indefinitely happened, mainstream science is not in disagreement on how excited we you about the discovery of Atlantis Doo doo by that hundreds of Atlantis, for me, is one of thousands of traditions about high episode of human civilization in remote antiquity destroyed when that civilization angered. The gods, that is, that is a universal story, is told everywhere, and the Atlantis they Atlantis story is better understood as part of that worldwide tradition, rather than viewed in isolation very interesting though the latter story comes to us from the greek philosopher Plato. He is the earliest source of the Atlantis myth. If it's a myth- and he

sets out information about Atlantis in two of his dialogues, that to me ass in the treaties and what he says is this information came to him through an elder figure, whose called so long a greek law makers who existed about a hundred years before the time of paper, but was in Plato's family and the information had been passed down to Plato so long had received the information from priests in Egypt. They told him about Atlantic. This is how Plato tells a story, and when Plato tells the story, he actually puts a date on the submergence of Atlantis on that date is nine thousand years before the time of so long. That means nine thousand six hundred BC. That means eleven and a half thousand years ago and we're right there in that way. When the ice age is melting down and hell is being unleashed on earth, and if Plato made it all up, I'm really really need to understand how he got the date right. It's a man

what a beautiful way of putting it that we are a species with amnesia, really almost mean. When you mean you stop and think about, how does one keep records over twelve Ten thousand years with joy, cataclysmic events or people for many generations, scratching and scrounge. Just trying to stay alive like animals difficult now and monumental architecture may be one way of doing it. Do you know the notion that the pyramids in the sphinx were laid out on the ground to model in April, sky and thus defined a date using for constellations which were LEO where is struck on a rhyme using those four consolation to define a date seems like a kind of exotic idea, but sir, we have that right here in the United States in the Hoover down, there is a star map built into the architecture of the Hoover down and that star Map freezes the sky above the Hoover down. At the moment, the hoop

and was completed and the purpose of putting that star up there by the man who originated. It was precisely this. He said in ten thousand years if our civilization is lost an hour Language is lost and nobody can read our documents when they come across the structure. By looking at the storm map, they will be able to know when it was created, how crazy is that in its based on the procession of the economic base of the procession, which gives you this universal beautifully mathematic we'll cycle. We gotta think that people think like that today they must have felt like that Baghdad of civilization had in sums two totally different, an alien way than our own made so alien that their writing was images. You know against Egypt, so that's all other things are really gonna John Anthony West DVD series. Is he really kind Gets you to understand how different their culture?

society was than ours and the way they just the way, they read things. They read things you know All like Shell Maggie. You know, rebar community saw things in images that was their language. The language was images such bizarre, indifferent way to even think about existence varied and then and ends the important thing. For me, remember about. The ancient Egyptians is this: this was a culture that devoted its best minds you now for three thousand years to considering the mystery of life, this is about the mystery of that. We lost so much in that burning of the library of Alexandria right leg. In knows what we lost. Heritage of the human race went down in that so credible were left with this framework. These these steps some things to trotted deconstruct passed in and the even

keep I mean these have a certain amount of information. They say we're done we're done. We figured it out. We do not just the idea that they can put a date to enable haven't they dated the peer is just sort of based on carbon things were left behind. That doesn't necessarily mean that, People didn't move at the pyramids, two thousand five hundred BC. I didn't know the exact date now, there's not theirs much to go on the it's. You can't carbon date stone, but you can carbon date. Organic material and in the mortar between the stones are some organic material and the car dating on that is really puzzling. It doesn't make the pyramid twelve thousand years old, but it makes it makes, a thousand years older than it supposed to be at the top and four hundred years older than it supposed to be at the bottom? Go figure that out her. You think they built

the bottom up, not the other way down- and this says nothing about the core structure of the permitted- only says about the outer facade. How does I don't think we can. I don't think we can take the pyramid away entirely from the ancient Egyptians. The ancient Egyptians were massively involved in the pyramid project, but I think the pyramid project is one of those two face projects and the view put forward, is that is that the original site was laid out around ten thousand five hundred BC by the survivors of Olaf's civilization. The subterranean aspects of the great pyramid is specifically, the subterranean chamber was created at that time. The gigantic monolithic structures, the Valley Temple, the Marjorie, Tussock Marjorie temples, the stand beside the pyramids received so different in terms of their architecture, which have, in some cases, blocks of stone. Weighing two hundred tonnes of many blocks of stone weighing one hundred tonnes in in in

But this was the first phase and that sir, and that that then I would suggest what happened was that those survivors of Olaf's civilization established something like a monastery at Giza there. They then started to recruit from the local population. So that within a generation or to their, Egyptians anyway, but they were trained in a system of knowledge and that they kept that system of knowledge close and tight and passed it down for thousands of years. The idea of knowledge being transmitted for four thousand years is actually not too difficult to take its already happened. We ve had that we have that with some of our existing religions, which go back close to four thousand this is no reason why shouldn't have happened and then, at a certain point, this Sir monastic institution switched egyptian civilization on with all the high knowledge that they had preserved, and that's why it's so powerful at the beginning, and no one else was able to do that at that time anywhere else in the world, not in the way the Egyptians did. It was created

just a magical series of events. Here I mean the great pyramid is a magical thing. Magical, managed to climate five times I've been into every known, Chamberlain and passageway Tell me about the kings chamber, because that is the free gifts thing of all People are now. They have proven that some of the stones in the kings chamber were from a quorum. Hundred miles away close to seven hundred miles? These a glimpse of five hundred tonnes is giant stone. They come from ass, one, how tall how they way there the heaviest stones in the pyramid way about two tonnes, seventy seven systems. Those are you talking about the weight of thirty five law. Family cars roughly large family car weighs two tonnes, that's thirty! Five of them. The equivalent of a heavy blow

negotiations between like two tonnes and like that to demonstrate that it now has done you couldn't there's trouble Oh yeah. That's a definite we can do it, we can. We can do it, but it's hard and and to do it again and again and again and again and again and to do with incredible precision and to align the whole structure. The your building within three sixtieth of single degree of true north really also know from that quarries the pyramids there was an empty road. There wasn't a highway. There wasn't gas, they learn, so they ve got these fifty tonnes blocks of solid granite. What are they doing putting my boats mean how are they doing these things? Five hundred miles legislating them. They were definitely shipping them down denial. That's what they would have hard to even wrap your head around the fact that people were communicating from seven hundred miles away, that law doing it move giant stones in the place for some

crazy asshole, they wanted a huge competitive, evil worker. The quarry this crazy birds once a fifty turn rock a heavily. We get a job this they got back to prison. You try to talk about this, and I have a heart is made out of wood. Its awesome. You don't need to do this interesting thing. Is you know that the the Egyptians didn't devote that kind of architecture edgy to their daily lives, waited there? Their houses were quite simply, they they devoted it to their sacred architecture and they'd. They were perfect and everything did I I come. I come out of all of this, just with a sense of the mystery, the majesty of the all of our lost past and and the fact that we do need to know who we are and where we came from, we do need to recover our memories. We parted The reason why some fucked up is because we just got no idea what the fuck would woken up in the middle of history yeah.

Duncan. I were talking about this before there was a time machine. With what time would you like to go back? We went back and forth from cave mandates to see some cave men too. I think I'd like to see each. I would love to see Egypt in its prime to see what the fuck is going on there. And I had it what it most that like when it was in full bloom and the pyramids had just been created and missed. Does this strange civilization. A super advanced civilization had just just risen, far beyond anything else on the planet. Let's build a time machine and would that no Thank you very much, Sir there's been an amazing conversation is huge honour and please follow Graham on Twitter, its double underscore after Gram GR, eight, a M double Underscore Hancock and you gotta do the Dublin's Goerck as we go to single sore some asshole has your name Twitter will give you Graham Hancock. If someone has that there is an

the grand vizier guy. You should ask him again: he is, and the website is Scrap Hancock dot com and I had my Youtube tunnel. I'll, give you two generally I what his answer is links with the website, its Graham Hancock dot com channel. Something like that. I need to get started on gram if you've got to get this fingerprints of the gods, it's one of my all time, favorite books by was leaving and going to go on the space station for the rest of my life. I'd bring that one with me

it's amazing. Thank you so much for being here- and I can't thank you enough. This amazing treated the internet has brought us together thanks. I've really Jeddah comes to think about the general can experience the general good experience was sponsor by flashlight. They never want sex toy, for man got a flashlight dot com by she wants and an inner the coupon code Rogan and save fifteen percent of the total price. Joe again loves flashlight, I love fly say we

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