Welcomed the Jordan Be Petersen Podcast to support these broadcasts, no need to doktor Peterson's patriarch accounts, the link to which can be found in the description, Doktor Petersen Self Development programmes. Self authoring can be found itself authoring dog, I'm here talking today with doktor marked daily doktor dailies and professor psychology Master University in Hamilton, Ontario and author of many influential paper. On evolutionary. Psychology is current research topics. An evolutionary perspective on risk taking and interpersonal violence, especially male male conflict and fast, he and his wife were late more Wilson, where the former enters in chief of the journal, evolution and human behaviour and former present of a human behaviour and evolution society he was named a fellow

of the Royal society of Canada in ninety. Ninety eight daily is one of the main researches of the cinema effect and has been interviewed many times in the press about it. So I'm very these to be talking with darker daily this morning, it seems to me that he's one of Canada's most outstanding psychologists, and perhaps you could say that about psychologists in the world and he's done some credibly interesting research on the relationship between inequality and male violence and an inequality in other topics do so the doktor daily. Thank you join today to be talking to you. Well, I'm looking forward to our conversation a lot, so you just wrote a book which I'm going to show people called killing the competition, and I just read it. It was very interesting, so I thought maybe I can get you to start by talking little bit about the Balkans and also how you tell us tell us the story that would be a good

to do well. Their general issue that is addressed in the book is the relationship between economic inequality, which is usually indexed as incoming quality and homicide rates and its no for a long time by sociologists that income inequality is the single best predictor. They ve got of homicide rates across country he's across states within the EU. S account cities within the Eu S and some other kinds of jurists: nor comparisons and there's been. Controversy about why that is, and whether any quality itself is true. The problem or whether it is the corollary of something else and invest I try to make the case that no inequality really is the problem, and so that the arguments that about a vat for suggesting that it's a mere correlate of violence right, Then suddenly caused on environment IRAN. So can you tell us a little bit about how you calculated

quality in and what the measure is yet income inequality. There's a number of different measures that are used by a kind of us said of just borrowing the dominant once from economists the number one. What is something called the Jinni index Gee, I add I to assume that that was some kind of acronym, but actually it was the name of an italian economist and it's a measure that is wages from zero to blood- would be zero if everybody, had exactly the same income or exactly the same wealth if you're doing wealth, inequality and input approach, one as in color was concentrated more and more in the heads of feed I met a single individual and in its, but go to one in the extreme if all wealth were held by building it's a the rest of us had anything

now you analyze the degenerate coefficient at different levels of of jurisdiction. So I noted in your work and you ve looked at countries and states within countries, and I think that true in the. U S so tell us a little bit about what you found: yeah or with within the? U s- and again this has been done by sociologists for some time with a view as and cross nationally. The Judy Efficient is a very good predictor of homicide. The correlation tends to be of the order of point seven in many studies, which means that the riots in either measure fifty percent of it could be accounted for by the variability in the other measure, unsafe between homicide in income inequality, and

Actually it evil works at a neighbor had level may like life Margo, and I published some analyses in Chicago that showed that include equality was a very strong predictor of homicide rates across neighborhoods with its cargo. Tell us a little bit about what you did in Chicago is that batteries It is extremely interesting and also when you did it what say we did our work in Chicago in the early nineties and at that time, Chicago head. Very high homicide rate, not the worst in the United States, but one of the worst in the United States and the fact that more homicides every year than the whole of Canada, which makes it a substance sure enough phenomena, maybe concerted, look for causal fact: there's our correlates without a lot of stochastic noise in Chicago took up is divided up into some seventy seven, I believe neighborhoods by there's one having tradition of urban sociology in Chicago

these are well recognised. Seventy seven neighborhoods in any way for these neighborhoods, we were able to amass a variety of neighbourhood, specific information, including on income distribution, on Aside from self worth of working the Chicago police who were collaborators in some of this work and Margo went to the Illinois Department. Health to try and get information on other death rates and birth rate, sudden demographics, structure of each of the neighborhoods and she wanted compute the life expectancy, because the idea that she had was that local life expectancy will be effective step two which people were willing to sort of asked dangerously in competitive. Situations in competitive, and that was our control of what most Thomas into Chicago were about were guys, kill each other when did

in bars circumstances in which there is some sort of competition and it gets dangerous at our basic idea there and elsewhere has been up the variability in homicide rates, the most violent, volatile component of homicide rate has to do This male bell, competition of where whereof, when does it get dangerous somewhere? When does it sort of damp and down and for Chicago anyway the Illinois Department of Health had never. Nobody had ever computed neighbourhood. Specific life expectancy, The data were available to do and eight specific mortality and solemn is available to do it, and so, on impunity. Specific life expectancies in coming quality and many other variables that criminal criminologists have considered relevant impasse. Daddy's racial heterogeneity and blah blah blah and try

to see what we are best predictors, a at that particular study everywhere else? We worked. We mostly income inequality be number one. In that particular study equality was a very good predictor, but the best predictor was male life expectancy at age at birth or an aged fifteen in order course. You say: homicide rates, harvest reduces male life expectancy after remove homicide, statistically as a cause of death and say life expectancy net of the impact of homicide. That was our best predictor of homicide, break the life expectancies, very valuable in the city, chicago- and I assume at other? U S? Cities, I've even the worst neighborhoods male life expectancy of birth, was down in the fifties, as bad as in the worst countries in the world and neighborhoods may life expectancy was up in the directive. Over eighty the high seventys in any case, corresponding to what you

expect in Scandinavia, the places but the best life expectancy and the rights of the huge rage that was our best predictor benefit I do a multi buried analysis where you want for wool? What else predict some? There residual variability ability and there wasn't much residual variability. The second best, indeed, the only secondary predicted that seat statistically significant was income inequality across the neighborhoods. That was that was the thrust of our. Our study in Chicago and I'd love to see more work on life expectancy has a predictor of violet. The diversity and criminologist mark. We were tried to do the same thing. My trial, but he felt that a Montreal the difference in life expectancy, men between the worse than the best neighborhoods, was only six years, whereas in Chicago was twenty four years So when you, why do you think accounted for the vast difference in life expectancy between when Montreal Ali was life expectancy itself associated with income inequality,

Yes, I mean that's part of the problem, of course, in all this kind of research here, it's not experimental research, you dont control, independent variables and everything of potential interest is correlated with everything else so ill. Income inequality alone accounts for more than half the barriers in homicide rates across Chicago neighborhoods. So does life expectancy alone so does percent below the poverty line alone, Europe where things are correlated with each other and so try to tease apart. What's most important is tricky so goddamn below the life expectancy in Chicago neighborhoods, is not due to violence is due to it. Its due overwhelmingly to differential disease in check, privatisation of medicine in the? U S was so extremely timely time doing this research emergency rooms in the worst neighborhoods in Chicago closed down because they got bankrupt. They didn't

buddy to remain open and therefore, if you got stabbed her shot the bad neighborhood in Chicago, you had to be transported somewhere else. Frankie be alive because there was no their hospitals and shut their emergency rubs up or had shut down completely, so there's all sorts of factors that contribute to, Two differential death rates, but you don't kids, are the worst neighbourhood are exposed to high levels of where there is some evidence that lead exposure and childhood so big nectar of ability of life expectancy all kinds of it. For an old diseases- they were more susceptible to the effects of bad, mission. They were more susceptible to so you, if you divide, causes of death in the so called external causes, which basically means homicide, suicides at accidents and internal cause. Which is more or less than I, but the order I think of as disease internal causes were still the biggest source.

Differential mortality across neighborhood, so you can make by the sounds of it. You can make it the case that the same social safety net in Canada is flagging out. The bottom of the of the income distribution, especially the provision of health care, and no, I also I was informed awhile back her that the rate of entrepreneurship in Canada, actually higher than in the. U S and part of the reason for that is that, because health care is provided, people can take a risk of walking away from their jobs without putting your family completely at risk, and so one of the perverse effects of socialized medicine is that it elevates the rates of entrepreneurship. So I also wanted to mention know your your work was absolutely striking to me because of the effects ices. Now for people who don't know about how to compare effect sizes, I should point out.

You never see a correlation of point, seven between any two variables in the Social Sciences. This guy named hemp he'll, who did an empirical analysis of effect size comparisons for five years ago, might be longer not now, and he concluded that ninety five percent of social science studies how is the size of point five or less, and so to see a correlation point? Seven is absolutely overwhelming. Would you also take into account That measurement error is decreasing. The policy of the relationship to some degree stats and when you take into account that time that those, though, that point five represent the studies that were published because they got something. Yes exactly exactly so so point seven is absolutely overwhelming. I've never seen if that sizes that big between two very was of interest in any other domain. That I can recall, then the other thing that that's worth pointing out in a week

wrote this little bit do is the everything that's a radical about your researchers that it an honest this: what merges out of the out of the manner in which the Jedi coefficient is is calculated, because it's only a measure of relative poverty and it's the projector. You also generated data indicating that places where everyone was relatively poor or say relatively working class like North Dakota and some of the canadian provinces at very low homicide rates and also places where everyone was rich right. So too rate reiterate what you're seeing is that what's driving mail on the side? Is the existence and free? correct me. If I'm wrong the existence of a steep economic dominates hierarchy that makes it difficult for the men to obtain status through what you might describe as conventional and socially productive means so instead they turn to violence. As me,

of establishing status and most that's within race and between young men. Jockeying for position is that all correct your eye that's a pretty fair characterisation of its it's worth. Stressing, yes, how many quality is in principle and in practice dissociated from just averaging cover for our poorest. Below the poverty line or other measures of so called absolute deprivation, often correlated either but equality across a certain set of jurisdictions may be fairly strongly correlated with the percent below the poverty line for will it be surprising if it was not you, ITALY correlated butter, but there necessarily, as you said. Yes, so you demonstrated very. You were one of the first people to demonstrate where you, the first, in fact, maybe that it wasn't poverty that was causing this kind of crime. It was relative poverty enough that changes. The interpretation of this situation absolutely dramatically so tell us a little bit about why you

the males are competing in in this deadly man. What's driving that behaviour? Well, it's very addressed I think I think men are sensitive to interested in relative position status of maintaining face it competitive billiards and sets out WWW, arabic, competitive and the world it is to use violence. Parties can be thought of as a kind of by the state. For the future or I walked by now. To do something that threatens by life like escalate and competition you're not back down or not walk away from it exult up, because I'm thinking very short term the rewards for four being passive it off. If Europe, if you're a nice prosperous

diversity, student of age, twenty you have good life prospects. Your chances for a day surely become egg well paid job. Maybe people at this are still reach You ve got your chances for eventually burying our still reasonably good if you're the same age guide the guy get all whether for eight percent unemployment rate, or something like that that you have very much more with uncertainty the stability of whatever income you do get with with the future. I note that your moral liked it take a risk now in the pursuit of status down the produce suited. Sexual opportunity now in the pursuit of Terry rewards, illegal or illicit now, and also make its a face. Like social reputation is the one resource you ve got.

If you ve got other resources, you could walk away from threats or or disrespect of I repeat, rewards later, if social state, This is all you ve got that it becomes an important thing to defend. So I rates research while back it look. The relationship between socio economic status among men and number of sexual partners, and also you economic status, more women, a number of sexual partners and as another domain, where you see these kinds of walking correlation, so the correlation between socio economic status for man and number of available sexual partners is about point six points whereas for women its negative point, one two, and so do you think so? Do you think that its reasonable to assume that either at the file, a genetic, low level or the onto genetic levels,

either evolutionary speaking or even as a consequence of rational calculation. That part of the reason then or may perhaps the main reason that men are engaging in this status. Competitions is because a female hyper gummy is that reasonable is that arise, we'll hypothesis hyperbole it, as you say, set of simple access I been there, there is. The association that you mention is presumably a very long standing one, that is to say, the benefits with status of resources, have had access to partners for sure at probably multiple partners, simultaneously are seriously to a degree that bet of lower status have not theirs high variants. It eventual reproduction about males in metal, generally ed. Although the situation is less extreme people that a Betty other variables? The same is true for people like me: will you

they have high variants compared to what will Highbury its compared to women, for example, of the very ability and eventual reproductive successes lower for women of her bed or husband. Now you say Sir sexual access to have it. I think that's exactly the right level to be You got in contemporary societies, but reason why that matters is because ancestrally that translated into differential reproduction for a body environment, of which you don't cry. Perceptive technology is available especially to women that dog that that correlation baby, broken down the motives to seek sexual opportunity remain relevant. So one of the things that I wanted to talk to you about two is the: I give you, you made a comment in your book about Adrian raids and Adrian raids has written a book recently about the biological predictors of criminality, and you have to make a strong

case that it in some sense the the turning to violence. That's care drastic of man and uncertain situations is rational because it dry, is it actually legitimately DR status increase and that produces a variety of positive effect. So it in since its irrational responds to a radically uncertain environment where competition is high, now reigns would say in the biological type researchers they. They look They look more at the individual level and conclude that its individuals who have various forms prefrontal damage or or character, logical issues so it'd with anti social personality disorder that are more likely to engage in violent acts, and you can track that mean you're probably has done some of this work and Quebec you can track. Emergence of aggression at an individual level, all the way back to children at two years of age, because it turns out that children who two are the most violent children particular

the boys, but mostly a subset of boys, who kept fight, hit and bite and steal at two most of lumber socialized by the age of four but a subset of whom are not socialized, and then they become their more likely to become the lifetime offenders, and so What I'm wondering is, maybe you can reconcile the difference between the two research streams like this? Imagine it as the echo. MC gradient increases and the dominant target becomes deeper and deeper them who are probably to be violent, like it's, disagreeable men that start to be violent. First made are the ones that have an impulse control problem more than her character. Illogically, like that, like the violent two year olds that are character logically predisposed to be violent, it seems to me that those be the ones that you know,

The pressure increases those men who are more prone to violence, for other reasons, are going to be the people who react with violence. First, you think that's a reasonable report Yet I think that's a very reasonable hypothesis- and I need my objection to every raids book was that I think he fast he's. There is definitely evidence that many kinds of violet criminal acts Yours have got something wrong with their braids Adrian re blights to extrapolate to the conclusion that vital criminals are indeed criminals in general. Have got something broke it about their brains and it's like criminality is pathological, well, criminal, but he is not pathological people, steel for cost better, related reasons. The cry, but is a if you, like God, help us social construction. It sets.

Certain behaviors, our criminalized by a larger social group. It to deter them, because self interested rested, individuals would otherwise pursued a veto. How do you make people stop exploit, other stealing from others by Criminalizing those activities imposing penalties at you know these are your choice of stream of fear, I think, with a craven ology that that other people I gave you re just dismiss out of had no doubt criminal offences are path, illogical, yeah and I think that silly law, it seems, are necessary because it is not that difficult to make a marriage between the two issues. Like one of the best predictors. You know I do research on individual differences and personality and the best personality predictor of incarceration in is low. Agreeableness one of the dimensions on which men and women differ the most, and so, as you become more disagreeable,

become more self oriented. I would say- and that can push passed the point where you're so selfish, twisted that you're willing to prey on others. Those are the guys that, as well as the guys who lack impulse control, those are the guys, the first guys to turn to violence. Let's say when the socio economic conditions become sufficiently unstable, so that a conscientious approach is not tenable, yeah step at the marriage between that kind of thing keg ed, and thinking about the relevance of equality, is that there's guys at the top who are like the violent people? You scribe. There's people doing very well who are very happy to explain others, but the costs individual, violent action, our high enough at the opportunities to exploit other people through fight, actually, through your wires of three. Whenever tactics are available to

no well heeled bullies are are safe and off. They opt to behave in those direction right because they ve got their long, in future is relatively stable and so that long term, planning and regulation of the aid actually play an important economic role at at it. In the case of somebody like Donald Trump, I bade he looks like somebody suffering a little bit of an impulse control problem, especially sort of during the night when he wakes up it is his twitter account is to close and head, but he's he's rich enough to Bali, people at other ways that actually heads violence, although come to think of it this remark that he made during the cab aid about women of suggests, perhaps that continued Lucia heads of violets- I guess that qualifies ok. So there is a very large body of research that,

gates that alcohol is a major contributor to criminality to especially with regard to man, and saw about fifty percent of people who were murdered have a decent. Alcohol level and about fifty percent murderers, and I think that's partly be that step is equalize is, I think, because much violence among It is exactly the sort that you describe words established dispute and its moral to toss up who's gonna come out there's a winter, but then I guess what's happening with alcohol ground is it, because it's a dis, inhibitor because it reduces anxiety and is one of the oppressors of aggressive behaviour, that men who are already on the edge, let's say because of the unstable environment and the steep dominates our you're, also more likely lose control when their drinking and maybe that's all, fuel. This is something to that. I'm curious about me. Think about it as a rational calculation. But but I am also cure. About the degree to which its fuelled by emergent negative emotion. So it's easy for

people who were in state dominates heard too regard this system as unfair and become resentful in an angry about it, as perhaps they should be. I'm not suggesting that's necessarily irrational response, but it is that is, the anger, is simmering underneath the surface that its waiting in some sense for an opportunity breaks alcohol, in a bar or at home, perhaps provides that that route yeah up What you say makes evident sets to be available. Work is probably worth it a bit of a car, should about the word rationality generally, when one talks about I should allergy and cry, but perhaps especially confrontational violence. The point is not that the person is making good carefully weighed decisions. I read, I think emotions are the had made of what I would call ecological rationality. They they help. You know how you should feel

certain things and how you should react to the ad the rationality, clay born clay above this person, gets riled up resides, at their at issue it. There is good reason to get round up a breeze at acts, but the fact that alcohol, perhaps desert habits, so You know that we truly rational balance between inhabited Torreon, s of emotions is altered. The idea that Russia, that alcohol of interferes with with cognitive process the point: the people are stark, naked, stupid decisions, but their drug side too. Behind the wheel or whatever. I think this place very heavily to the reason why so hi besides, tend to happen it cod texts, like two drugs, has sought to each other and still are those people worse somewhere the efforts of alcohol it to each other, rather than not, you know it,

If you have more, if you have better wherewithal at the moment, you probably have better capacities to confuse dick do to diffuse. Jurists situations through it all. Ways the dope entail losing face by by being articulate great, exactly that's right, you have other too was at your disposal rather than immediate recourse to your fists. Thank you. Yes, so if I remember correctly, when you Chicago studies, is one of the things that I found particularly fascinating. Was you track the consequent is of killing someone in Chicago and the consequences were something the following sort for. First of all, you are likely to be charged with something like second degree murder. It would be difficult for the police to find people to testify against you and they did generally work, they would say, is that it was a two way altercation and so at

cases you complete self defense, often it didn't go before a jury, because the perpetrator plea by in the down demand slaughter. The sentence was something On the order of a couple of years and people were generally out of prison in eighteen months with a substantial boost in their social capital, because now they were like dangerous sons of bitches not to be messed with, and that was quite clear and also perhaps also improved so to speak by their sojourn in prison, is ever got that right, except for one detail Actually that's Chicago studies. We didn't have as good follow up information. What you're talking about this. This was a really or piece of research in the city of Detroit that that lead to boast of those findings, but does that yeah? Exactly of hardly it's interesting, We had a. We had a single year, sample of cases it Detroit, and there were, I think, five hundred

Ninety, besides the Detroit that one year night he'd, seventy two at which Time Detroit try to have the highest Tavis outbreak, the? U S Large majorities are bail, bail, disputes, sort of status. Disputes usual but sometimes robberies, add just, as you said, This is our own likely to come forward at the prosecutors are stretch they go right. They don't have the resources that they would be pursue every case, and so they many cases were dismissed, steady, daddy. Prosecuted. Never! My plea bargain something like approximately half of all male veiled, macho dispute: Homicides Detroit that were solved, we're not prosecuted at the expectation that there was a plausible self defense argument you know what the Jerry that of the half that were prosecuted almost all of them. Yet, where plea bargain down too bad slaughter, the the majority of not a convictions riots, three years, fifty percent type,

forget behaviour behavior. If you behaved Eisley you gotta Jackson, state president in Michigan, Two months later, you're back out on the streets in Detroit and Margo, a particular was very addressed the question of whether killing in these contexts might even actually ultimately pay off for guys. I too, to the view that actually killing as an oyster, overstepping the bounds of utility. That that are generally hearing that deadly threats are very self interested ineffectual, let them again, but that Actually following throughout this, maybe you don't let that non functional tip of the iceberg, I honestly don't know that. That's true at these kind of cases, for for exactly that reason, leaped guys get some social Capital ought to have done it well. How pathetic among the animal tried tribes in in in saw them. Consent, South America, believer Centre, thickets of North America, yet yap thee.

More warlike men, have a much higher reproduction rate, the ones who killed more now I dont know. Obviously, it is necessarily the case that that's directly translator There is some utility and being a successful warriors. That's actually one of the reasons that I think that that capitalism soda because under appreciated, because whenever I speak in a very specific sense is that there are is agreeable and warlike men and some of them are very powerful in many ways not only physically but intellectually and character, illogically in and with with great ambition and the thing about cap let them is that it enables them to wage war in a manner that that's not deadly and to be, successful that way and and to channel their their intent competitive energy into something that, while I think are often is often for a social good,

depends on how disagreeable the person is and how selfish they are, of course, but people like that also tend to get punished in there in their cooperative interactions with other people. Beat. I partly agree, but I also feel that they offered toward the social good as a bit. Hopeful lobbied too, the degree that people are successful at a fairly unrestrained capitalist, petition it's usually at the expense of large numbers of people at the bottom, but it depends how a priest that capital is going to shut it. I was thinking of social good as in better than war yeah, we'll bury or for sure right after the war for sharing sometimes sometimes the way you succeed is by producing goods that We make people's lives better? No quarrel with that to now I also wanted to ask you. I wrote in the last couple of chapters of your book you turn to what I would regard as

political issues, and so I will- and I am very interested in inequality because will regret recapitulate four minutes. So your work and the work of other people seems to indicate that as inequality increases and dominance hierarchies kid steeper. Not only do young men get more violent and so society becomes less stable, but there's also detrimental impact on things like population, health and and and editor, and that was that was documented quite nicely in the Spirit level. So I'm going address a couple of criticisms of the research and, and then I want to ask you. I want to have a discussion about you, you're, more prescriptive use, if that's ok, so so the first issue, someone. Just a be this while back and when I was talking about What are the only said? Well, what about places like China, where the rates of it

quality, are starting to skyrocket quite substantially and have been for in a central years. Maybe you'd be several decades yet the homicide rate doesn't seem to be budging much and so died thought. While that was interesting, maybe there's something front about east asian communities, they tend to have very low crime rates to begin with, like places like Japan. For example, a very local crime rates, and so I wondering if what you think about that is a reasonable criticism. And how would you address it fair enough up? I don't, I don't think we can characterize. You know orientals as less violent than occident holes, or anything like that. I think history tells us otherwise that Turkey, there is but a lot of severe and dangerous. What's in Japan, it Historiae ended China in history,

don't know how good data we have on chinese homicide rates, but what I have said is that they have been going up a bit lightly, but still the point that inequalities bits Iraq and it can be partly there's an interesting question, time, lags that separate people. You know house how sued is increased inequality effect going to play out as nasty into personal behaviour and you don't people respond to it. Equality as a result of their life have experience, as you were talking about young kids, already very young children. Already being predict boy, the extent to which they are willing to use violet tactics against other people at that it all assets three and forty rods, to give you some surprisingly got prediction of how they ll behave as addled. It's not inconceivable that the effort the very quality, even our influencing people's development. Pre daily and so

In our view, the right environment that they experience as a function of of inequitable environments. The stresses fraught social comparisons and saw the habit of those environment could be of what you ve been at all life's data. So I don't think we already strong basis for expecting Rapid changes that equality to be a company that the short term by rapid change of violence of that said there you don't certainly the case that there are other things that matter: government trolls are what I think. I think strong governments that better applying the legitimate use of violence. People of violence for a long time, I you know, I would whether they keep it on it indefinitely, but they could people it on for a long time. If you, if you execute all charged murderers, I presume

that will keep the incident to barter down and not only because those people could be recidivists great, so so there's an element potentially of authoritarian control. Yeah. Then the ethics of that I think it is particularly interesting, is the time lag argument mean with you. Dont know, over what period of time precisely inequality has its pernicious effects, and maybe it's not even the span of one lifetime in it. Did you have any data on that? That would help help answer the question. Why did did make reference in my book, the competition to one sociological study. Yet effective equality, I'd mortality generally the notion that inequality effects mortality generally Mediated by what you are talking about about health effects, the idea that it offers racism, fraught social comparisons, produce

waiter vulnerability to stress, related diseases and that many diseases diseases baby at our stressful. Due to their ultimate impacts up people Saunders this whatsoever. Logical study by guided Shag, Ohio state which side effects of economic equality of mortality in general and came to the conclusion that there, the effects world that the maximum impact on current mortality was inequality. Seven years ago, which sounds kind of funny, but he had a Dallas which seemed to show a bit wary about the legitimacy of these analyses, but they seem to me to show they seemed shawl to him that it equality of a few years ago effects the chance that you'll die now of of the effects of agent, sacks of other predictors immortality at that

their sort of a Kubi all have consequences of many years of a of of past. Did he go Seven years ago was the worst, but six at eight also battered additives may five years nine years ago. Also battered additives may ten years ago also mattered, so that how bad the inequality was in your past seems to think likely to diagnose the effects of violence, have it have about It's hard to figure out how you could get a decent of data set to do that right, but possible case. So, with regard to health so I'm gonna lay Oda an account of them, and then you can tell me what you think about this right. So you you're here your brain is always trying to calculate to some degree how good things are going for you and that's an extraordinarily difficult calculation, because life is uncertain and ultimately uncertain and it's difficult to predict the future. Except perhaps

using the past as a marker. And so what seems to happen is that our nervous and our nervous systems are always interested in how prepared we should be for emergency at any given moment and as far as I can tell their. There are a number of ways that we calibrate that one is baseline levels of trade neurotic, so that's sensitivity to anxiety and uncertainty and emotional pay, and so is to be born, roughly speaking at a at at at at your average level of neurons system, which can very soon actually between people, it can be also adjusted puberty and then the environment move you in one direction or another. So, for example, if you have a highly anxious child and you encourage them to go explore, then you can move them words. The normal Rachel Jerry Kagan has demonstrated that quite nicely. Ok, so the first, the first estimate of how worried you should be about the future is like genetic role of the dice. Some people will be born, extraordinarily well,

roughly speaking and some people would be borne, hardly worried at all, and then that can be modified by the by the particulars of the social environment right. So then, the next thing it seems to me to be part of the calculation is comparison. How well are you doing compared to others? Yeah? That's it to be adjusted by mechanisms that associated perceived social status with set I told him ergic activity such out as you move up a goblin in Turkey your ceretani levels rise, so that your impulsivity which would be partly sensitive sensitivity to immediate reward declines. And so does your sensitivity to negative emotion, whereas, if you plummet down, to the bottom of a hierarchy. You start to become more reward seeking and also more anxious and the reason for that more anxious and is because the bottom of the dominant turkey actually is more dangerous waste to be because you don't have access to

don't have reliable access as rely to shelter or food or mating resources or health care. In you even see this in birds, you know so if a flu sweeps when avian population, it's the bedraggled birds at the bottom of the dominant Turkey, to die first. So there's one more thing and then tell me about this- is that everything that seems to happen is that, as you can, but down the dominant, Turkey and you're mine settles into a more depressed and anxious state the level that cortisol that you produce chronically rise and court. All the good hormone for activating you, but in but in but in high doses, high continual doses. It starts to produce brain damage, particularly the hippocampus, and it also suppresses immunological function, which makes you more susceptible to infectious diseases, so that seems to be applied

similarly the process? So it's no wonder that people are trying to flee away from the bottom of the dominant Turkey That seem reasonable. Yes, to be giving a moment, I've gotta cough blow laid out. Ok,. Hay fever season in southern tearing up- ok, yeah. I wish I were a better behavioral endocrinologist. Do a bit bore with more expert in some of the processes that you're talking about, but a lot of that big sets to be the this fraught social comparisons. I beat the evidence, certainly that is more stressful to be while ranking that high ranking we ve had a little Beth. That's all hot, big, a very high right puts all this bird of decision make you got do that's terribly stressful. It makes you wonder what a heart attack and blah blah blah

A big data say the opposite: the data say that's not true. The more power and status, if you like this make your authority. You have the less vulnerable. You seem to be distress, related diseases, so alive up a lot of what you say: banks makes evident, says to me that the developmental story tell I gave you know. I think it's right that people, I don't. I don't know how important the role of the genetic day says. I think itself. Extremely interesting puzzle, evolution airily why there's is much heritable. Genetic very ability in seemingly important debates is there is, and I'm not say: buddy, has you don't? We Really understands what violates how much variability there is, but in any case that things

a justifiable in response to what you encounter Adam and response to social status. Perceived of social status in response to social comparisons makes evident sets me, I don't get it. No know enough about the putative damaging effects of excessively prolonged exposure to say: hi cortisol levels to be sure whether there is still some adaptation some actual functionality to the response to long term. Exposure lurking beneath the saving breakdown in the system, because it just seems to me that aid, our video died evolutionary social side, said. Psychiatrists psychologists have been too quick to, the pathology when they see the states of affairs

do indeed have damaging consequences, but bad sub nevertheless have some utility. I wish I do a little more about well, I think both the low serotonin The high court is all levels are interested in that regard, because what does happen is the combination of those two things makes you a more impulsive and be more prepared for emergency action. Both of those things are very useful. It and uncertain environment isn't detrimental the detrimental consequences. To occur as a consequence of prolonged overlong. Is that because your body is utilizing, imagine what your body Doing is utilizing more units of resource per moment of time because of the necessity for preparation for unexpected events and that can become physiologically exhausting in the long run. So I think it does. It did it. It seems to me that there was biochemical effect. Do underlie the sort of adaptive responses.

You describe, except that in too much is too much, and yet, if it's hard to live at the bottom, what that means you age faster. You don't live a long and you also have higher susceptibility to disease and maybe, in some sense that's the price you pay for the adaptive impulsivity it's also necessary to give you a chance to shoot back up the hierarchy. If that's the sort of thing that you're looking for yeah. Don't I cannot help thinking about sort of the evolutionary theories of far of said essence and bodily repair that tar or pioneer base your pen, Peter Better WAR back in the fifties and develop more by George Williams. The idea that two of them, many things above some sort of trade off between expenditure for expenditure.

Energy of accumulated resources of capacity in the pursuit of something now at the expense of reduced capacity. To be successful later, and so your, what reason why these products states may have long term damaging effects is because selection gets bigger, these chronic states has done but strong, because those who are in them for a long time didn't testing Broccoli tend to live very long anyway, there being, if you like, motivated or prepared to engage. Should a high risk activities that at least have some chance of short term pay off, which is more or less what use and actually well. You know you talking is miss. Let's call it a misbegotten idea that their stress at the top of the dominant turkey, just like the distress at the bottom of the sea.

At the top is responsibility in decision making and all about him. You know what I do believe that there is truth in that, but there is an important and other important biological element that needs to be considered, and so there is a there's plenty of work done in the domains of clinical cycle. Some of this cycle physiological and neural physiological for that matter, showing that stress of an equivalent magnitude has fewer negative effects if it's taken on voluntarily behind, because what happens? What have? Yes? Is that, if you internally engage in stressful activity. Your approach, systems or debated rather than your defence systems and the approach systems. He with positive emotion and with and with much and where the negative emotions, are associated with this defensive posturing. That includes preparation for emergency and that's much more physiologically damaging

whether something, whether you pick up a load voluntarily or haven't thrust upon you? to make a big difference to how heavy it is, and that's it. That's very. It's a very interesting piece of centres of research studies. As far as I'm concerned, it's quite fascinating that that can be the case. Yeah. Ok, so let me ask you another question: let's get down to it, we might say brass tacks here. So We can make a case that inequality, destabilize the societies and and and crank up the mail or male homicide rate and the deed a occurs, because young men become more and more unpredictable and violent, and so you can. Conservative case, as well as a liberal case for having a society that takes inequality to an extreme, because

conservatives, at least in principle, should be concerned with the maintenance of social stability in the long run saw a but back, ok, and so then you might make a case for income redistribution. But that gets very very also because it's not that easy to redistribute income and that's what I want to talk to you about. So you know we're in a situation of course, the top one percent of the population control systems actual proportion of the economic resources and the top one per cent of that top. One percent controls the bulk of that. Now I looked into that quite deeply and that that distribution is it's not a normal distribution and money. It's a period of distribution of money, but the weird thing about Brito distributions, and so that's a distribution where many many people end up with zero, and you know Just a few people end up with a lot. Is that a prey to distribution, arises: zero some games that are played out to their conclusion. So, like me,

hopefully everybody starts in the middle, but then random trading produces an eventual Perito shaped distribution were lots of peoples. The to stock up on the losing side, one person accelerates towards victory until five everyone's zero except one person. So it's the logical outcome of random trading game. So that's the first thing: that's interesting about the breed of distribution. The second thing that's interesting is that Fredo distributions- they freedia distributions emerge every domain of creative human production, not just the distribution of money so, for example, We did an analysis of the of creative achievement lifespan, using using an instrument called the creative achieved with question here, so what it did was assessed. People's levels of competence across thirteen potential domain,

of creative activity, and so we were looking at production rather than creative thinking per se right right, although those two things are related and quite tightly, we wanted to know who actually accomplish things in the world and so forth: musical ability, for example, the zero score would be I have no trading or or talent in this area and the maximum score would be in my my comp, my original Positions have been played for international audiences, and so we ve now administered out to hunt two hundred people and the median score zero across all thirteen domains. It's a very, very precise, Brito distribution with a few people. Who are the outliers producing the overwhelming majority of the goods, and you also and that there is also a law that dishonor price came up with back in the nineties, sixties governing the output of scientific papers, and he found that the square

of the number of people operating within an academic domain produced half the papers that were published in that domain razzle. So that's not so bad. If there's ten researchers, because then three of them are producing half the papers. But if there is a thousand researchers operating in a domain, then Three of them are producing half the papers. Ok, so I have one more complication and then I'm going to let you let you have out this so I've been looking for now. You can think that the pride of distribution which, by the way, characterizes the distribution of wealth in every known society, although the degree to which the distribution is skewed differs. You can say that the period of distribution is a consequence of the of the final playing. If a random trading gay, but then here's the complication. This is something that's been bothering me for years. There are predictors of long term. Lay success in in relatively stable societies

Yes, predictors are in this order. The first predictors iq this second predictors trade conscientiousness and it's about half as powerful. As I can and the third predictors load eroticism, and it's about half as powerful as conscientiousness. So if you get a good measure of I q and a good measure of conscientiousness, then you can predict Claude twenty five presented variants in performance, especially across managerial administered given an academic domains and then with regard staunch opponent performance, But you can use iq and and trade openness, which is the creativity measure, so there are powerful in visual differences that are driving differential performance and also driving this creed of distribution, and so is not merely a random game, although How these people manage to make it into not a random game is beyond me, but there is evidence that

Society does hierarchically, arrange itself, at least to some degree by ability, incompetence, and so then the question is: how do you factor that into the equation when you're thinking about practical? Let's call them. I don't think it so much. Income redistribution is that it's an attempt by society to stop to many people from stacking up at zero and and therefore, logically, turning to violence and that sort of thing as an alternative. As well as an attempt to just improve the level of justice in society. The idea I been especially if there is an element, a strong element of randomness who ends up where than theirs. Just about large numbers being stuck down, the zero but are you know, is How is it possible to redistribute but countries very of the extent to which they do this? They vary the extent to which they tax inherent

they value of the extent to which they tax urgent Cubs up, they vary the extent to which they provide. Education and health care tribe, provide a relic, We are universally try, a bigger opportunity relatively universally. Very these things at your house. Some of the happiest countries in the world and I think the most productive countries in the world the nordic countries, Japan have been relatively equitable up because they rig this gave borders. Other countries, if you like so You say that what stacks up at the top ten to be the most competent of people into employment. To some degree we have a bare autocracy to some degree we do have a meritocracy, but it all for, while aboard barred errors, have as much wealth as

the hundred billion poorest Americans put together and they did nothing to earn it You could say well, their high quality because they got half their genes from Sab law that he did something darted. That's it. A pretty weak argument for why they should control. But well, if, if heritage were more severely tax in order to provide What goods for everybody with the society worse off would flattening out that curve of accomplishment actually reduce productivity in, I think, there's some their thickness of evidence. I wish I could poet or friend my mind about the utility of strip it a grab, buddy, more or less equitably in certain sciences, about a society get fear back up? Is better you give lots and lots of people relatively small grants. The www gives a small number of people relatively large grants. The able that's that's interesting cause. I've worked in

grant system in the USA and Canada and grant system in the. U S is more of the give a few people a huge amount of. A variety of candidates distributed more equitably, and I must say that I, asked. We prefer the canadian system now Greece with you, and I think the canadian system has been moving, regrettably, in the direction of the about having to partly thanks to the field of science. Of course, if you need a bloody aid run collider that you need billions billions of dollars a year, a psychologist like you or me, things seem to work. Better in many ways when you find a higher proportion of grants with without lower very said, the about awarded. What I first big master. There was exactly what I should do. It first came by by say. I say the late eighties an early diabetes actually everybody of the department had a research grants for me there and search that

all sides in ensuring research Council of Canada shirk the social side with humanity's Research Council of Captain. Usually the former and our particular Department Everybody of the department have an active research lab everybody created the opportunity for two or three students to a bachelor thesis of their lab each year. That would think get more valuable people start people to people who are being productive, we're getting out of scientific paper, to doing decent work, making a contribution to knowledge, but they start died. These grants it over you refused, three types of their competition Well now that you're already dead I tell you: I've got good petrol, lined up article because real estate speculator the opportunities for. The dissemination of research opportunity to a larger number of students. Shriek. I think it's it's. Been a disaster it, sir here I guess you know what area where I was raised, that will be agar studies.

If you just look at either, the number of papers and top rag journals up by country. To how they allocate their funds or how much is allocated to it, the body, I came to it- is the last straw predicting the expected the adequate abilities, a stronger predictor, Sweet Canada used to last habit, both reg far above the United States in numbers of papers per capita getting into top quality research turtles inedible behind yet all get what it's one little anecdote away, but tat, but I would be there surprised if there is a subject reality to this alone. Why are we wonder, though, to play, Evans advocate the thing about distributing research once more equitably is that you are distributing them among apart nation? It's already been extraordinarily highly selected for capability for, and so it seems, counterproductive, because its four for all? floors of the university system, which are manifold. It is still,

extraordinarily difficult to become a professor. It's it's a multi, tiered selection system and so the people who do become professors are on average variant Elegant and on average, very hard working- and we know that because we know what the predictors or of success in academia its intelligence and conscientiousness. Unsurprisingly, although creativity seems to play almost zero rule, we'll have to blow the think yeah. That's partly because science is Kharisma. Game gave right and just beetling away added busily is very powerful mechanism. So I'm not the least bit cynical about that mean the reason that science words is because it's in some sense it has the aspect of factory production it can be distributed. Anyone can learn to do it. And you get a long ways by nibbling at the edges. You know what happened to continual slow progress when millions of people are doing. It is progress that plenty rapid, so

Ok, so so there are definitely situations in which denying people resources seems to be completely counterproductive, and that would be one of them. So now that the other question no is, I would say, and and also that's the thing there is also an effective means of following resources to let's say a wide range of professors. It actually works. The problem is one of the problems with general income. Redistribution is as far as I can tell you that we don't really know how to do it very well and one of them I mean look here here, isn't it or you can tell me what you think about this, so I used where I live. No Berta when oil per sporadic where books were going on in my observation was that if you ll to make money in Alberta when an oil boom was going on, you didn't go out and work on the rigs, although if you did that make a tremendous amount of money? Now it was all young men who did that pretty much

between the ages of sixteen and twenty five, something like that, and they were making fantastic amounts of money, but they verse almost all came out of it with nothing to show for it, because they would work for two weeks, then go into town? I have a blog party for four days and spent everything they got and expensive cars and wreck them and so forth. So is reckless behaviour. Then I think was a kid in some sense to that too. That are to the to the steep dominates hierarchy, violence in and that sort of thing that, status de seeking that you're describing the p who really made money where the bartenders right because They they absorbed all the all excess profits and actually, generally generally speak we're, comparatively speaking, were able to utilise the money properly now. The point I am making is that an oil boom is very effective way of distributing wealth down the economic louder, but

necessarily seem to me to be a very effective one because it didn't because the money flow back up to the top. Percent, damn near as fast as you can shovel a downwards, and that's that's the thing about that. Damn parade of distribution is that its it seems there are people, there's no there's a group there's a scientific, some field called economy, physicists and they archly. They actually model the distribution of money in an economy using the same equations that mortal the distribution of gas into a vacuum. So so something that's natural law like about this- that the economists call the Matthew Principle right to those who have everything more will be given and from those who have nothing. Everything will be taken, and I dont think that we ve done a good job of grappling with the actual complexity of this, and we can to split up into politically opposed what would you call camps and argue about the diesel

Gender inequality in the left wing solution is something like no distribute the money. Take it from the rich especially they undeserving rich if you can identify them and give it to the poor and the serve to say well, know the portion the poor should bootstrap them. Up and maybe be provided with more opportunity and that might equalize things, but it isn't cleared, That were actually grappling with the magnitude of the problem declared to be there. But what you say about equalising opportunity, for example, is a necessity district, the resources, because one way you require opportunity is by having universe high quality health care. That paid for by some the sort of government revenue, Sub taxes picked up somewhere free education and universal ACT.

Education is certainly another. That's all it's another way that, in effect, you create a more egalitarian society. Somebody there are. There are certain debate, certainly education, healthcare, maybe some others that are not spring to mind. Why spoke improvement of various sorts of interest infrastructure that make it easier to get from point a to point B. You don't yes, A couple of publicly subsidized treads. Things like that could certainly be contributors as well. Now that's equalising in its own right. You don't take it, but he had given its Typically, nobody else, then there's things like a guaranteed minimum income at a first itself. Like a crazy idea. The idea that you know you should just we should take government crude resources which come from some sort of taxation that we should just make sure everybody has fifty thousand bucks a year to start or something like that.

Outside the wacky, because that they stand or argument against from the right has been that it will undermine incentives, Nobody'Ll produce bugger off. If you know what, if we could be welfare right, but why do be welfare queens, mostly and where this stuff has been tried my understanding is that that its, but surprisingly success For that there was an experiment better tell them where a bit Having come was tried for awhile where cash you. I remember that no back before Finland, by up to Triumph Finland's about to try it better Toby has tried it. It was a deeper government, I think, which then were replaced by conservative or our nominally liberal government to send sort of canned the results, but the results came to light later and showed that first apple, the number of people who chose not to work did not go up under this at that it have various beneficial

the facts? I think rebates VC, but I think even the the pudding body in the heads of everybody from the great collective well that has accumulated, could be socially beneficial. Can the economically beneficial could be environmentally beneficial quicker at at at that? Certainly, the debates like education and health care. That's in effect a kind of redistribution rate at time that seems easy to affect you. It I've been easy. It's not easy to effectually in terms of convincing people politically are or overcoming the propaganda against it, but we need a whole bunch of are obviously a whole bunch of of our wealth is embodied in the infrastructure. Yeah really noticed this For example, when I lived in Montreal, because Montreal is a great city and one of the things that distinguish

Montreal from most cities that I've lived in, especially western cities, is that people live in city. They don't live in their houses. Yes, and the fact that the city is extraordinarily livable, so you could walk everywhere. There is always something to do it's exciting. There's a tremendously active street life means that there is access to infrastructure and social capital related well just distributed everywhere, and not yet have a lovely thing so ass, a I'm kind of looking for solutions to the previous distribution problem that conservatives and liberals alike could agree upon some of those you outlined improve the investor you're society, because that those are public goods that benefit everyone that also improve product It seems to be no downside to that. At all also raises employment improvement. Quality of education right from broke right from

one, which is something that I think, would you a very bad job and then the issue with healthcare. It's my standing that the canadian healthcare system for it and it has flaws, because it of course, dealing with an impossible problem, still uses much less of its capital on maintaining itself and, for example, having to meet. Infrastructure, the they collect money. I know that the hospitals in the- U S spend something some substantial proportion of the revenue, like I can't remember, cisely, but it's between seventeen and thirty percent. If I remember correctly, just gathering the money for their services, which seems to be run, counter productive use of the resources I wonder how much is spent on billboards advertising their hospitals to drive the interstate highways of the EU s its astonishing? How much information about you don't come to such

where we have the best case scenario dogwalkers at, and it isn't why the Americans pay a lot further healthcare They do indeed they do. Indeed, I spent three years there. Recently we paid a lot for healthcare coverage that turned out, not in fact to be held up there. All a coverage right well, when I lived in the states when I have decent coverage, but I was teaching in Boston there. I too pretty good programme, but it wasn't. I say. It was manifestly different from my canadian experience, which has been mixed, but of course it is very important to note that help there that making people healthy is impossible because everybody gets sick and ages dies, and so it's an impossible task, and it also indicates to me that that's perhaps one of the reasons. Why doesn't fit so nicely into a free market model, because free market assumes that there's not infinite demand for something in there is actually near infinite demand for healthcare, specially another dying

There's that there's also just you know it's it's impossible problem because I'd aging population, it seemed impossible problem because you don't governments have one of the determinants of the costs of the healthcare sector with somebody up these. You ve got out their billiard governments. Have a tendency to respond to this by Restricting the number of new medics so as to strict the number of people billing, but this is not much of a solution, but you have large numbers. People try to find a family doctor, unsuccessfully case other is there is some meritocratic

structure to our society. In so far as iq, conscientiousness and openness predict long term life success and that's a good thing, because that's an indicator of of health into society. I would say it's it's if your society is set up to two to allow people who are intelligent and conscientious nearer the pinnacles of power structures, that's a good thing for everyone. Now you could still have an argument about how steep them gradient should be, but them with regards to the to the guaranteed annual income issue. I am also concerned that the importance of individual differences there are, being considered. So, for example, I dont know what people who are extremely low conscientiousness would do with an annual income, because they're not inclined to work, and it isn't obvious to me that providing them with an easy way out is the answer, because

body on conscientious people with an easy way out seems to be actually quite counter. Productive and conscientiousness is, as you know, it decent predictor of long term success. We don't know to what degree the city is motivated, which is, of course, the conservative argument. So so, and we also don't How homogenous is this and smaller society has to be before income redistribution programmes will actually be successful, seems easier to momentum in relative, homogenous societies like the scandinavian countries or the g or or Japan, which is where they can do have been implemented. More success, sat upon complicated phenomena as well, and then the other things really gonna come up on his heart in the next ten, I would say this is how it looks to me- is that I think computational devices are multiplied. Of intelligence and conscientiousness, because if you're so

and you know how to use a computer and your diligence as conscientious person would be then you're much more deadly than you would be without your computer, because it multiply, gives you an there is a huge difference between someone who really knows how to use a computer, including knowing how to program it. Then someone who's illiterate enough to use their ipad due to do a Google search and so I think that one of the things that also driving inequality, particularly in societies like the United States, is that increasing people who are smart and conscientious can do a tremendous amount of work without having a higher anyone. So we these tiny companies that employ almost no one gather massive resources to himself and that's gonna, be a problem. While here is a good example. Here is one thing that coming. So you know that Tesla Geyser Workin pretty hard on autonomous vehicles and then make a lot of progress and they're, not the only ones. Obviously, but you know the biggest employer for males in North America is as DR

I didn't know that yeah yeah the biggest single employment category so, in other words were increasingly eradicating the possibility for people who are on the lower end of the intelligence distribution and the lower end of the conscientiously distribution to find a place in society, and it is possible that provide with with minimal resources to survive, might be sufficient to solve that problem. But I doubt it because, as this no man, does not live on bread alone and its To me that people need the rest. The degree to which people need to find a productive and credible place in a functioning society is something that we haven't. Yet we don't know the parameters of that don't go. I don't disagree. I believe the are, of course, the loss of decently paid work. Add two dates

major computer, revelation to some extent, or at least you know modern electronic devices to edit your phone could do everything revolution at I live in Hamilton Ontario, where, where, formerly a watch bucket tell, but with an enormous number of people working in decently, paid working class jobs at those jobs, but evaporating ed. If drivers evaporated levy where he's going to change. Work opportunities are going to change, and I take your point. The people did something that they could think of, as useful work, useful work, you know it's a drastic. We're talking were to bales talking about their supper, probably thinking from a somewhat bail perspective, there's a lot of useful work. That is minimal you're, not at all cup compensated, predominantly

build up maids of day care kinds of things, of so called charitable activities, etc, and you know that the idea that people deeds to occupy their time with that feels worthwhile that enters the between social arena, where they engage with other people that they come home satisfied something useful and they also chicken every part besides, I bit of work opportune, he shrank and if the decks mark Zuckerberg cut employer, people, the poet of tens of billions of dollars, then where gonna come from its baker from various sorts of paid work, with a guaranteed a cup that you know enables that were to be paid and still be fulfilled. I mean I don't know. Maybe I dont know what that's a good thing to think about me. Maybe maybe people will learn how to go.

Into the community and spontaneously do useful things. Although I can tell you that my experience trying to find gainful Let's call it volunteer employment for people who are on the lower end of the ability. Distribution has been absolutely it's difficult beyond imagination because it turns out that finding a volunteer position is actually no less difficult in finding a job. For example, you have to go through a relatively complicated process of police screening for most jobs, and you how to produce resume. You have to be able to work in an office environment, and you know you need to have all the abilities that you would have if you were actually had on your John and so that that makes things complicated as well, so You're not gonna, cut back also do what you are saying about tub the predictive power of IQ, catchy edges, which I don't dispute and I am also not one of these people who suffers under the delusion that these things are totally

one socially determine close quote said it. I understand. I believe that they have, I heard ability and identifiable genetic resources in that very ability and so on. But you know the standard old joke use but you can tell because you know more about personality psychology that I said a little joke history, that everything is fifty percent heritable that done that, but pretty much anything that you can measure as a trade that has any ability within the lifetime also turns out to have a heritage, Eddie somewhere to your point far, but there is the other point five up, you know some people. Have low like use, because they were exposed to too much led infancy. You know I believe that Kaji exodus, that's can probably be like. I believe you

The jested earlier that we know something about this already about develop, had told the turbulence of of shifts conscientiousness adopt, so it all up after caution ourselves against talking about these individual different factors as if they are the latter of individuals that are going to undermine Eddie sort of progressing. Improvement of of others. It is for people are or are, or are going to create bad by products of attempts to produce social justice. Just gotta, you gonna, leave your your double conscientious people,

there being parasites or something what you know they're? There is, of course, decent evidence that yours, socio cultural effects. On IQ, I mean the flame. The fact which is named after the man who to describe the the these phenomena indicates that the average iq has been increasing quite substantially over the last hunter here is the reason for that? No one knows for sure, but one of the putative reasons for that is that we ve lifted the bottom out of catastrophe. So our people, whose iq are stunted by why exposure to zero information during critical developmental periods and who didn't get enough to eat I've got a severe malnutrition, thereby Jura Formation, yeah yeah. I got exactly so. We we wiped out in many ways we ve wiped out the worst effects of privation, and that's enough

singly true as well on on the worldwide scale writ worldwide stage in orders about a hundred and fifty thousand people day right now being lifted out of absolute poverty by when standards, the fastest improvement in the history of the world, by huge margin and also about three hundred thousand people a day being her up to the electrical grid, so we are making some progress. Removing the absolute privation problem, which is a nerve, reveal problem. The problem with most of the attempts to raise IQ is that they don't change, various and I q. They didn't raise the average you across the population and that leaves the inequality IQ inequality prom, basically untouched. So there have been studies trying to estimate how much socio economic pressure. Let's say you have to place on an individual to raise their iq. Lowering it's easy, because Megan, something worse, is always easier than making something better.

If I remember correctly, if you take an identical twin, whose adopted out at birth in order to produce a fifteen point, increase in IQ compared to the other twin, which is one standard, deviation, increase and about the same as the average difference between a university student is, in average state college. In an average high school student, you have to move The one twin from the fifth percentage of socio economic status to the ninety five percent are so you need about three standard deviation, improvement, socio economic conditions, to produce a one standard. Deviation improvement like you, so it looks like it can be: but it's not it's expensive, I see, I see what you're saying. Ok, too, surprised. Actually, I've, given you don't we just mentioned malnutrition as well. Possible source of law like you, what possible developmental source unkindest surprised that, due to the degree of flit effect, might be do two things:

like a reduction of the number of people exposed to severe malnutrition that wouldn't have also simultaneous truncated, the variants a little bit: that's it slightly supply has soared. Let me restate that it has truncated, it has truncated the variants, although the data on that it is unclear, isn't is clear, but but I do believe that it's a reasonable inference to make good. The variants has been truncated, also hidden to somebody. Because the IQ test are always re norm, to keep the variants, have a standard fifteen points. Yes always so it makes it difficult to look retrospectively and see. What's happened to the variants so, but on the other Problem, too, is that you know you get these stories now and then about these companies that come out with claims that their brain exercises can improve. I q and they literature on that is damn dismal. I can tell you what the Holy GRAIL, is to produce cognitive exercises that producer legitimate aim don't fluid intelligence and and like there's, been a lot of work done on that and

answer so far is that it doesnt work So what we get but about the video gaming I mean. I know there has been the suggestion that playing video games actually improves at least some aspects. Intelligent, have others a couple of studies that indicated that video games might improve spatial intelligence, but but here's the problem- and I think this is this- is a critical problem, perhaps an insoluble one least no unsolved it. Is that what you get it If you are, if you exercise yourselves substantially on a given game, you can radically accelerate your performance in the game, so you can get much better at those specific scale share, but you don't get generalization across cognitive sats which,

what you really hoping for beguiled thought. I thought that was the claim from somebody I think they have shown some increases in spatial like you, but does not very many studies, and I would say there far overbalanced by the other side of the search equation, which continually says- and I looked at this because I'm really interested in the improvement of like you- I mean That'S- that's the holy GRAIL in some sense and that an end, the deal. The overwhelming preponderance of evidence suggests that you dont get generalization outside the narrow. Do me now why that is and even visits even worse, because you might say well imagine that you could take five different domains of intelligent, still associated type with with J, and you have people practice group. In all five dimensions. Maybe you get generalization under those circumstances. In the b, results of the research. Attempting that indicate that no,

So, as you move away from those specific practice instances, you don't get generalization that in essence, I guess it's subways suburb is to be expected from the consideration that everything is it allocation problem with it within the body at braided. That it by a large at a price. But one donated, tends to be bought at the expense of something else. You know you you just that right and then conscientiousness. I can tell you some research. We ve done that's cool, although we haven't been able to demonstrate that it's actually improved concealed, This is the first thing to note about conscientiousness. Is that no one understands it at all, especially the industriousness element, there's no plausible biological, psychological neural, physiological or animal mortals for conscientiousness all we ve got itself reports. We can't even find tasks that conscientiously,

Better, it's unbelievable bottom loose, Reports really only report. Well, you can get reports from teachers and parents and so forth, but it's all human report- ok, wait. We can measure it and weeping in my lab, we probably tried two hundred tasks trying to find something that conscientiousness conscientious people do better. No luck! We can derive from linguistic analysis of verbal output now to some degree, but that's still that's not a task in the area So now we produced a series of programmes called the self authoring sweet and one of them the future authoring programme to writing program that helps people lay out their plans for the future. In detail, so they have to consider their their intimate relationships their career goals the educational goals through use of time outside work, their plans to maintain mental and physical health. Their use drugs and alcohol? They have the right for fifteen minutes about what kind

I d like to have if they were taken care of themselves. Three, too, five years in the future and then to write for the same amount of time about how terrible their life could be of older. Bad habits took control, and then they have to turn the pause division into an implementing the plan. We ve managed to improve their, all grades by about twenty percent and drop out their drop drop, their dropout rate by twenty five percent. Over about tenth students now, but you know we tried to see if that was media by an improvement conscientiousness, and there was no evidence for that. What it was mediated, what was number of words written during the exercise, so it turned out that thinking more about your future helps the more think about it, the more help, and maybe that you know, maybe that would translate into an improvement in conscientiousness across time, but there haven't been any crime. Double studies that I know of indicated.

There are exercises that can be done to improve conscientiousness. So that's also troublesome and worrisome because that would be a nice thing to be able to do their catch it away. I haven't thought much of it I don't know much about the literature and conscientious. This is a trade, but the word seems too to be as an ordinary english speaker has a strong social, to it as well. It's kind of like a conscientious person is somebody who doesn't forget Bulgarians you're index of conscientious dissidents. University professor is so he has asked you to write them a reference letter forgetting to graduate school or whenever dashi prioritize, get the damn thing done. It. Ivory there's some risk that you're just forget about it and shoved somewhere else. I I imagine conscientiousness is having a strong element of of attentiveness to social. Obligation and the well being of others as it

defined in the personnel in literature. Doesn't have any of that. Well, I went, I would say not so much attention to the well being of others cause that's more trade agreeableness more the maternal dimension, but there is definitely a massive, effective social obligation, which is part of the reason why conservatives tend to be higher conscientiousness, the liberals, but it's not well being of others its duty and so that the continent just types mate form and maintain social contracts. Yes, they implement their plans and they seem to feel shame and self contempt when they when they fail to live up to their social obligations. So that's another thing: that's interesting about the income redistribution idea, because its conceivable to me that conscientious people would hate that, because conscientiously

do very badly, for example, if there and if their laid off from work, even if it's not their fault, they still take themselves apart, further failure, and so you can't you just people in particular seem to find inactivity without productivity, highly verses and efforts of enough to really caused them in a major health problems. So well look at. That brings us back to what we are discussing a little while ago. The problem of ensuring that large numbers of people. Access to beat it before work in a day, to which it is more about the case that the big components of the economy our big away with very few employees, that's going to continue that the duskily or back to that same topic to some extent, yes

get out of it. I think I think getting it. Equality of opportunity is sort of day, barber bedrock of inequality having its impacts upon us, it certainly bottom a bedrock of of. Why we should care about it and moral and social justice grout like love. Why should people whom we should let the birthright? It affects the opportunities available to us and also with social catastrophe, because Hypothetically, you want to set up a society so that whatever some one has to offer is maximally offered to the unity, because otherwise the community loses. Yes now seems to be. I mean I think, Examples of that, although I don't think this accounts for all of it- is that the relationship between them

vision of women's rights by countries and their economic productivity is staggeringly high? So I think that also has to do with openness in general to nation and change with with the provision of women's rights being an index of that, but nonetheless it's a great predictor of the eventual economic success while so are partly. It adapts apartment observe more more direct effect. That, after all, is slightly over half population, maybe their talents, are better utilised woke that, certainly what we would hope and I think, think. As you said, I think the evidence at least suggests that that's ok. So let me recapitulate because we should probably folded up its and so so far. I'm concern. Your work was revolutionary because it undermines the general proposition that

and mental cause of crime invite violent crime in particular was poverty. Instead, you? U flitted, you flipped it on edge, so to speak and made the made the claim well substantiated by the research that its relative poverty that drives violent crime because of status seeking primarily among young men, although there are effects of pro absolute privation, and that would be the poverty is, the the effects of relative deprivation of status are more, let's say, especially in our societies, much more socially significant, yes, and at the status competition itself is driven, at least in part by the desire of men to attain status, to obtain access to two women, roughly speaking in its particles, women outsource the problem of made selection

to the male competition domain right. So the males compete, the women peel off the top like a market solution. In some sense and then and then having pointed out that. Inequality not only drives me a homicide, but also tends to destabilize societies. There is an impetus people to consider how we can stop the winner from taking all without being on duly authoritarian about it or or or impeding individual productivity, given the fact that there is individual variation in yes in the elements that actually produce productivity. That's our set of social problems, exacerbated by the We're gonna be wiping out employment for huge categories, generally of man over the next fifty years, but in this context just make a point that I spent most of it after my boycott of that, is that the notion

that inequality is somehow the engine of productivity. It's been pretty much rejected by economists themselves in recent years have come to the conclusion that rail, If we places actually have bore economic productivity, in the ensuing period of time that those that start up bar inequitable there's a lot of reasons for that of the one that I think is most striking, that I Then people to look into is the concept of useless. If you like our wasteful expenditure on guard labour relatively unequal societies, a guard waiver is a term quite by the kind of assent balls and urgent giant of what they ve shown is that The number of people are employed, it just jobs like being security guards goes up as it equality up. It's no great surprise what you think about it, but define guard labour more broadly or more generally, in the general result is that a large proportion of people are

age to work, then? Is it a sense, non productive? It's just trying to prevent people from usurping the property of other people up at that. This is a very wasteful consequence, the extreme better quality at a dub economic wasted? do. The relatively equitable societies- and there are others rather will, as the society becomes more unequal- it till towards. Authoritarianism, have multiple levels of organization. It selective counter only because they Edwards exactly is at its counter productive. Even from the point of view of of simple economic crime. Terry of GDP, it's odd that that it quality gets in the way that, for a butcher reasons, another really interesting when the balls has articulated in recent book almost Debbie. Well, yes, samples! If we want to look about, I, because what was called the do

politics of inequality of redistribution- and I liked it alot anyway, what what but he's showed that I thought was very interesting. It never enter by had before I read him was that the actual quality of goods society can be damaged by severity quality when. Richard eventually, abridge firms have the capacity to keep innovators and small companies from establishing Sounds you mentioned before about the differences in our rail undertakings at where law. Numbers. People worthy small business plans, Camp capitalize that probably can't get off the ground. You actually got the phenomenon of people with lots of wealth and shoddy Products to drive people with better quality products were trying to get started. The bottom out of the market, with negative results for just the consumer,

all right what about society with heavy people stack up at zero? Zero turns out to be a very, very difficult place to get out of bed I'll. Give you can't leverage yourself It will always have windows really unequal societies to like saves, miracle societies, it's also begun increasingly unpleasant for the people who are wealthy because their only well in a very narrow, be defined way because they can't go outside. They cannot let their children go out on the the public because they get kidnapped, mean the societies get. Ugly when the fences have to be really high and yes, and so so so about about the bridge original, but the rich cut. These are the world. Those problems are not absent. Had been there simply worse, the U S than they are in Canada, most Western Europe. Well, all right! That was really good. I'm I'm very happy You agreed to do a broadcast with pain, and I mean I found your work. Well, I guess

We regard. You is one of the people who has been highly influential. My thinking I mean, I think that work on relative poverty is just an empty effects sizes the work you guys didn't Chicago your work on indicating the two utility of of uncertainty, related dominance, challenges in unequal societies. All that's brilliant! I bacon nicely biologically predicated in science. Done extremely soundly, and it has remarkable policy implications and nobody changes. The you around crime and and and wealth, and an important way to did over towards the inequality side. I think its a bit so nicely and with the dominance hierarchy, literature and all of that, it's it's the profound stuff as far as I'm concerned, so I'm You have a chance to shirt with everyone. Thank you very much. I have proof those kind words Egon

flattery I'll, get you everywhere yeah. Well, the thing is the best kind of flattery. Is truth so, and I would certainly recommend that people take a look at your boy. If they're interested in what we ve been discussing again, that's killing the competition, which is its readable, I would say it provides a lovely argument with regards to inequality, addresses the major criticisms I think very effectively and starts to Lay out what is going to be an increasingly necessary public discussion about how civilised societies can can can ensure that they don't collapse into two extreme distribution. What into two extreme distributions of wealth or other resources. Its real danger is a constant, conscious, constant danger needs to be thought through an address very intelligently. So thanks again, hopefully maybe we'll get another chance to talk

hopefully a couple hundred thousand people watched. As that would be great thanks a lot. You bet signing off sign off, ok, Vita. Thank you for listening to the Jordan, be Petersen Board cast to support these pod cast. You can do need to doktor Peterson's patriarchal, which description of this episode. Doctor Peterson's self development programs can be found at self authoring com.