197. Apocalypse Never? | Michael Shellenberger | The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast Transcripts

Welcome to season for episode. Fifty one of the joint be petersen podcast mc the currently has no voice. So this is eric foster mediator. if you're, eliminate to read true and the ads in this episode. Doktor petersen talks with Michael shellin, the author of apocalypse, never why Environmental alarmism hurts us all. this conversation you may be introduced to an entirely new perspective on environmentalism in climate change, george Michael also discuss Michael's recent book on how progressive policies led to increases in homelessness inequality as well as me, crime worse, also be hearing doktor pearson thoughts on the only cure to alcoholism and how person wars? possibility might be the most effective way to impact the environment if joy. This episode, please remember to hit subscribe.

The. Hello, everyone I'm pleased today to have talking with me, MR michael shellenberger. He is, the best selling author of apocalypse. Never I read this book this morning. It's great It was full of stories, so it was fun to read. Each chapter is extremely densely packed with information but embedded in a really compared compelling micro narratives that make up a really nice narrative across the whole book. It's count intuitive its full information. While that is what counter into it means full of information. You wouldn't expect its very odd,

mystic and its tone dislike. Despite being realistic, its practical, sensible, it's a hell of a thing to occur, this is also the author of the forthcoming forthcoming books and friends. Co, the time magazine, hero of the environment and green book award winner he's. founder and president of environmental progress based in berkeley. California, and I thought We probably centre our discussion around this book apocalypse. Never, although I'd also like Talk a bit about san francisco, and so what does it mean? you're a time magazine, hero of the environment and what's a green book award winner, thanks for having managed burden give those words were given in two thousand and eight for the first book I did, which was co, authored and it's a book is a book called break through the death of environmentalism to the politics of possibility and there's parts book. I still really agree with one of the themes of my work is that

fundamentalism is depressing. It's actually bad for mental health. I think that's now being proven quite dramatically rising levels of anxiety, depression and report. Despite its schoolchildren around the world that there have been nightmares about climate change, you may know that half of all peoples I'd say that they think climate change could result the extinction of humankind, my view, evolved over the years, but I've always viewed apocalyptic it I meant to listen as a problem for people care about saving nature for people at that for everybody those words came from that prior book here, while the idea environmental activism issues interesting because, at least in part, because it also it see to me interferes with sensible policy making, so it's actually self defeating and in a profound sense. First of all, it gets people hyper worried about it,

Emily regulate, vaguely formulated problems distracts them from what the prior art prioritized issues might be, and. Well, it's hard to think clearly about what steps to take to move forward when you're panicking in a vague and unpleasant manner, so If you do not do that in apocalypse, never that's what things are really liked about it was that in each subchapter you drill one, at least to some degree, to the level of actually actual implementable policy. So you start with a story about this group and now I should ask you first, who are you exactly to write such a book like? Why do you know this? Why should people listen to you sure, so I've been environmental activists for twenty five years. I have also been I'm also an informal journalist. I read a column for forbes This is that's my apartment. I was my second book

You know I don't have any formal qualifications. I was a colossal anthropologist. I quit my phd programme in the ninety nine these because the programme had become too postmodern an abstruse, the the Biggest era was called the death of environmentalism, and then I mentioned the book breakthrough. I mean you may find Trusting that you're, my father is is a very humanistic psychologist and the same tradition of work that you are in, or I see us in and I that environmentalism was making me depressed like climate change was depressing me and it and so one of the famous lines from the death of environmentalism, which was an essay two thousand for, was martin luther king. give the I have a nightmare speech. He gave them have a dream speech and we broke. because I was reading, I would books about civil rights movement out, feel inspired by these stories of heroic, overcoming and then I would we books by moment bill mckibben, another environmental damage I depressed, and I will

you know, something that makes you feel depressed is probably not very motivated to make positive social change you kind of wonder, you kind of wonder to missus since we're dogma. Psychological issues is that it's possible that that kind of apocalyptic thinking is much more difficult for people escape when they are in fact depressed, and so it's very difficult to separate out political beliefs from let's say, emotional state, and so that's an interesting issue in and of itself. People might object. Well, you know that the crisis is owed. Gloom gloomy if you're a real as that, of course here depressed, and it should be the case because you know look depressing the factor but strikes me as both kind of puts cart before Worse in some sense is like: are you sure the crisis is of that proportion? And then are you sure that depressing

but precisely the way to go about it and then last thing there may be, as I couldn't shake the suspect. And especially in relationship to environmentalism that its contaminated quite badly with, like historical, shame and guilt, and a certain kind of profound anti humanism so and I mean contaminated by that you know I've, environment to say something like on the planet, would be better off as if it was a In some sense, if there were no people on it like well. I'm not so sure. I trust people who states say things like that and then don't notice so. yeah, I mean I was I one of the things I stumbled across. I mean I think, at the end of the apocalypse. Never in the false gods for lost souls chapter, Talk about how I myself was depressed at a period when I was drawn towards apocalyptic environmentalism, saying: isn't it

In question of is apocalyptic environmentalism depressing or is, or depressed people attracted to apocalyptic environmentalism or Of course, I stumbled across the work of erin back, who you know the founder of carbon. behavioral therapy, one of the founders- and I was struck that death these structures of depressed people that he identified amateur A person in the world is a terrible place and future is bleak that that's the eggs. I've seen through these structures of the every environmental narratives so every environmental narrative is that humans are terrible cancer on the planet old is going to have a handout escape and the future is not in the end is nigh stronger. So that's a very interesting observation, especially in relationship to your comments about school children and so perhaps driving those three axioms home no impact. Clearly and forcefully isn't the way

thing to be doing to young children and the Does that overlap with depressive thinking coming back? No small figure and in the history of psychological thinking, he's also extraordinarily practical, as is cognitive beer, real therapy, and it also as what would you say as a psychological philosophy or, as branch of medicine, even one of the things that behaviorist are really really good at, and I did this in my clinic practice is to take those vague depressive apprehensions and then them down into micro problems that can actually be addressed and that much less that's much less depressing exactly. Why is the future so depressing? As far as you are concerned like in some detail, not vague at look if you're gonna run away from something, because it hurts dangerous. It doesn't really matter if you have a vague conception of it right, but if you're going to say it and confronted and and solve it lets say, then you can't be egg about it, and- and that's all

so good for your mental health- that that approach orientation is directly linked by chemically a neural physiologically two positive emotion. So the process of decomposing. These terrible abstract problems into solvable micro problems actually for we'll take positive emotion and suppress is anxiety, and so very interesting overlap there and its worth thinking about I viewed writing. I viewed apocalypse, never as cognitive behaviour of therapy, both for myself for other people and in fact the high praise I received from peoples to this told me that they were very depressed. at the environment, and then they read apocalypse never and they felt much better, and so I think you have to do both things like, as you pointed out kind of April therapy, require his back therapy was you have to be very clear, read about. Why you're a good person why the world is a good plates and why the future is break? You have to be very specific about it, as we very

as we evidence based it, can't be yam fantasy sea land tat. The actionable is well. Oh, that's so interesting as I wouldn't have. I certainly get that sense. Reading the book. You know that, although you can also, although illuminating the fact that the problem that beset us globally and individually are actually act the bull and aren't so dismal when you look at them in detail and are also complex and weirdly interesting ways. It's not supply using that has positive psychological consequences mean? I certainly was pleased, for example, by your discussion of plastics in hawaii have been following the work of this dutch kid at. I don't remember his name, but he's built this gadget for gathering plastic, which is quite cool and and I didn't know that the evidence for the decomposition of play- six was is robust as you describe in the box, so I thought he is not good. That's that's! That's! That's apart!

the thing to say- and I saw many examples of that in the work that the things aren't is bad, We think so, let's go through that. Let's start you start talking about this group. I think it's a! U k grew Extinction rebellion and I come to see them in some sense, as the forerunners of where we might go. If we regard the impending climate qatar, four as a doom and gloom laden existential crisis, it's like men have to pee on the planet planned going to die, no The solution is to drastic, okay, so its extinction rebellion in some sense. So maybe you can tell the story about that. those who say that they say no new solutions to drastic unless, as nuclear energy, in which case there against it, or in case it's rakkeed, in which case there against that too? And I that right away, which is: why are the people who are the most apocalyptic the most dead set against the things that have reduced carbon emissions, natural gas and nuclear. By far the two things that have reduced carbon emissions, the most

said there in favour things that don't work. adding a lot of unreliable renewables onto your grid, making electricity expensive kings societies left civilian, climate change. Those are all high priorities for the apocalyptic environmental movements. That's not why wire lie. What's going on Well, I'm using so interesting yeah. You are on my mind, a bed when that was working, particularly towards the last chapter. I go through three core motivations one. Is there certainly powerful financial interests that work renewable energy companies. I document how fossil energy companies have financed anti nuclear campaigns for fifty years. I also have the third is the chapter, the chapters ten eleven twelve, the last three chapters, the book look at the motivation, chapter eleven is more on kind of will to power, a desire for status for feeling importance, partition. places like Europe which are becoming irrelevant with the rise of china

wanting to assert their power over the developing world. You know it's no good. I think that, as europe's power has faded, they become more demanding to take control of the international economy in the name of climate change and then the. Chapter kind of says? You know those are both important motivations but there's something else going on, which is that apocalypse invite, was- is clearly a religious movement, everything about it, every every the guilt original sin. The apocalypse thee the obsession with food. various things about. It are clearly a religion and I'm hardly. The first is to make it got up. Nation I document, and that those actually get empirical work document in that and so I see the you know, rising secular relation, what nature called the death of god and the nautilus exactly know be created in its wake, as really the underlying engines for apocalyptic take environmental assessments away way to give meaning but the world. So

I'm I'm writing a new work which is going to be called. We who wrestle with god and it it obviously we're thinking along the same lines and for some of the same reasons that there's this in the new testament that warrants people that they should deliver unto god that which is god and unto caesar that which is Caesar's, and course that, on that statement is built. The notion that separation of church and state is actually programme But I also think that's true psychologically, and this is part of the problem. with the new atheist movement or set We have a domain that sacred and rituals and an end to deal and some understanding that there are deepest values and that's the domain of the sacred, whether you like it or not, you literate that the name of rationality, and all that happens is that things that our caesar's now become contaminated with the religious and that's really not good. It's a seriously, not a good thing so attention,

thing to see you closed the book with that kind of You know we're thinking, that's along the same sort of line, and so what did you see that working in you personally that? Yes, that's! Ok, how yeah. I mean when I was apocalyptic about climate, You mean yes for sure, and I came back to my christianity in writing. Apocalypse, never but it was also. I also became convinced that by and hate and others that that having faith was a rational so you know that it's actually psychologically healthy to have faith, and so I had to get over my own thy demonization of spirituality demonization of faith and that unlocked the african finnish apocalypse, never actually till I had done that. no, I wouldn't know I wouldn't guess that again from reading the book, because it at that,

and obvious just as the psychological issue wasn't obvious, and that I think that's a really good thing by the way that should all be implicit in the book rather than explicit, had it makes for a bit a less cluttered book. Let's say I yeah, I mean I I some of my best allies Steven pinker Michael shermer are in the new EU kissed movement, and I really ruler and his friends. I love them and and Steve also blurred my new book, san francisco and so san francisco, and then I'm doing a third book afterwards and all three books are basically about the three, civilization from within and that on they. All conclude on San Francisco looks at the religious. This religious, the secular religion of compassion, and how it's gone completely crazy to base they result in greater victimization in the name of rescuing victims, and so definitely after. I think we're after the stained big pray here, witches who

threats to civilization, are coming from the most civilised that members of society who We are also in a secular members if they think that in this sector- and I society and there in their data, are projecting their needs for their crimes. new religions here, while their approval so you know with the death of god that this is nature through young. I suppose, because young was a great student of nature and at at as much as freud for sure, as much as he was a student of fright and young was really trying to solve the problem that needs posed, and that was his life's work, think in many ways he actually managed that pointing out for of all that we cannot create our own values. That's actually not possible, we're not wise enough smart enough. We don't live a long long enough. We just don't have that much intellectual spiritual capacity we have to depend at least to some degree on tradition, and that brings up all sorts of problems in that kill. You talked about like that religious killed. I was watching. Guy riches, king arthur

the other day and when the new, the king. be king arthur, his hands on the sword. He has this unbearable vision of his uncle killing his father, the evil uncle and the evil uncles a very standard, archetypal trope, you see it in the lion. King, for example, with scar on the evil. Uncle is often the tyrannical aspect of the patriarchy. Let's say, and We all exist in relationship to that, because we all exist in relationship to this patriarchal social structure, history, because we're historical creatures Then we all do have this killed that overwhelms us about the blood gore and catastrophe that got us to where we are and honour and privilege. You know to take a phrase from the radical leftists. It's part of our existential burden and the Essential psychologists, who were followers mostly of of remember the philosophers name momentarily wrote being time. Heidegger hide it.

You know heidegger talked about being thrown into the world, so you're arbitrarily put somewhere parents or arbitrary, subject to society. And this and you have these eggs. essential concerns that will never go away, and one of them is the terrible corrupt weight, history, and how are you related to that as an ethical being and radical leftists are definitely wrestling with that. You know, but in depression. Let's say they can only see the negative aspect of the patriarchal figure and not a pause, divest, act and that's a real catastrophe because well makes you ungrateful for for one thing, which is not a good idea and a modern state so ok, well, let's go extinct, extinction, rebellion, and so you talk about this activist group, that's highly motivated to point out the crisis and to take whatever steps are now sorry, but they won't do practical nuclear energy, for example.

that's really interesting one, and so why? Why not? It is that part of it, Examination of the environmentalist movement with anti capitalism per se, or what's going on there, it's like www yeah for sure. I think you, yes, though, in so- and this is also an so- is and my new book, which is. Why are the main advocates for action on the issue opposed to the obvious solutions, solutions that have work that preventive work, and so yes for sure there, because their motivation is to destroy the whole system. They view the system as the cause of the problem and have you anything that that distract attention from destroying what they ve an evil system, as in some way, to stay in the system, but that's definitely right round yeah yeah. I've seen that sort of thinking really destroy. People too, like I've, I've seen people literally take take their own lives because they thought that way they felt they were so corrupt. that any ambitious achievement

whatsoever in the service of this evil structure was ethically forbidden, and so it's kind of its like the committed, pessimistic nihilistic buddhism and its also another example of that global thinking, global vague think, that does in fact characterized clinical depression. Rifle coffee company is helping. You knock out your holiday shopping with a ton of awesome new products this year shop, the best brewing gear, thermos, mugs and apparel designed for folks who love country and coffee black Ethel sources. The most exotic rose from around the globe, all coffees roofs of here in the u s by veteran, led teams of coffee experts stuff your christmas stockings. The latest rose from america's coffee for ten percent off with the code, Jordan, better sign your secret centre for coffee club subscription. Imagine the joy of a pre scheduled coffee delivery. Your favorite rose when you need them most, it's the gift that keeps on giving a rifle coffee company is veteran, founded and operated, they take part

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Older So this is a special offer for J Bp listeners go to explore matter. Dotcom, that's explore matter, dotcom, slash, Jordan and then enter code Maybe p check out to save ten percent off the prepaid plans of matter any of their other supplements. I've yours and let us know it you think minutes also. another example of that global thinking, global, vague thinking that does in fact characterized clinical depression. Yeah me is interested interesting me. One of the things I tired by her credit hamburger, swedish youth climate activist, condemned nuclear power. or as some dangerous, unnecessary too expensive. Well, since windisch do care about too expensive. the main hurt she's demanding, basically that we owe grinding economic growth to a halt in order to is carbon emissions. You know she didn't she condemns basically any modest progress as inadequate, and yet she comes out against the source

power the zero carbon source of power that provides forty percent of electricity in her own country. When Our allies in germany had been speaking out to stop germany from shutting down last six nuclear reactors reach out to get her to say. Suddenly she wouldn't do it so Problem is solving a problem gets in the way of the alarm. Is the alarm ism isn't just adding drowned? and others misunderstand the alarm ism. They think it's a tactic to achieve some end, so one of the things I would guinea from journalists as they would say, come on, Michael, don't you think that's enough! to exaggerate. Climate change a little bit. The nordic get action will. First of all, there is no evidence that exaggerating prom gets more action in the area. That is no. Let us not lie. Ok, I don't care what the reason is here. No, no I especially about something important. I mean it's not that it comes from journalists who have become propagandists effectively in

The alarm ism is the goal like the goal is the alarm? Well, it ok! So let that's ok. So, let's could take down here and a little bit so part of what nietzsche predicted was that the death of god, what the death of god meant, what he described and predicted was death of god meant the collapse of the highest unifying value. Ok, so it become pretty evident to me that we literally perceive them world through a hierarchy of value and we certainly organise our social communities. Inside a hierarchy of value, and there has to be something at the top to unite No, it isn't obvious what should be at the top, in fact, did so, not obvious that we probably can only think about that in images. We're not fill us quickly astute enough to actually conceptualize it. The religious enterprise is the attempt to conceptualize. That thing is the top now, let's

it dies cause, it's god and he got too abstract richair ellie added the historian of religion said that that happened many times in our history that the top value got so abstract it go. is embodied in didn't know what it was any more how to act it out and what it meant, and so it floated away and then collapse in Competing compete claims about what should be the highest value. Well, let's say diversity, equity, compassion! Well, why shouldn't compassion be the highest value? Well, you know, that's a reasonable thing to argue about, I think there's some credibility the claim that love should be the highest value. Perhaps there truth and beauty. Many other issues. Okay, so I value collapse, we're not united anymore. Well, then we're motivated to argue about what the highest value should be and since it's about the highest value now now I have an idea of saving the environment down to the highest value. Well, when you attack

that, then, you attack my claim to embody the high still ideal and so use threatened me psychologically, cause that's where I found some refuge and some ethical guidance, and so not going to listen to your practical solutions either, and then I haven't examined what other motivations I might have like, while this antics but it is an issue that terror contamination for the environmentalist movement, so you're just not going to solve both of those problems. At the same time, you want to dispense with capitalism invent entire new economic system in and save the plan. Ok, the product, the promises and actually sincere about it? So they would suggest nature is the highest value. But when you say, ok, here's what, could do to save nature, fertilizer irrigation and tractors for poor countries right. Take the pressure off the forests, which is really where the guerrillas and the nature is

using oil rather than whale oil to save the whales and using nuclear power or natural gas. No, no, they dont want to do any of those things. So there is a nihilism there in the sense that the goal is power or itself now, there's also no such thing as nature, like you think about that, it's like when you refer to france as a as an entity as a person. So personifying it, or maybe your deifying to some degree. While that's happens with nature. It's like nature. What is that exactly? Well, everyone knows it's like an old growth forest or something vague set of images but nature. Conceptualize did that matters actually a day Of sorts and an unexamined deity and who god only knows what it means, I mean you look at what happened in nazi germany before the nazis took power because they relied pay. tightly with certain kinds of environmentalist thinking. Purity, for example, very big push,

against invasive species, for example, is quite interesting so like well, there this worship of whatever it is that nature signifies a symbolic it signifies something like while the maternal as put against the pit, the pay miracle, so that's in their the warm embrace of mother. That's all not symbolic realm, a great book about that called the great mother by Eric gnawing best book ever written on that nineteen fifties and jobs classic and it outlines the entire domain of symbolism of the positive feminine, and so you do see this religious struggle between them who are now advocates of the positive feminine and detractors of the negative mass. and that's very unbalanced. You know cause there's a negative feminine and there's a positive masculine as well. So all tangled up in that we don't understand it I mean one of the interesting shifts. That's occurred, even in my own career as an environmentalist. Is that all of the stuff from the eco toby, the

tokenism the green utopian. As on the renewal of me, the harmony with Feature that the kind of robin alive in these small self, sustaining kind of anarchist communities that you walk village, sort of picture that gone now mean gretta timbered actively says that that's not there They literally will say now we're just trying to prevent it from being as terrible we're trying to make it less terrible. So the eu, hoping some. It's still there I'm not saying it's totally gone. You certainly see with renewables. The picture of renewables is somehow harmonizing us with the natural world, but it's nothing like what was in the seventies. Nothing like earth day was actually mostly positive. I have a lot of criticism of earth day, but it was a mostly positive picture, striking to me is the disappearance of even that positive picture from apocalyptic environs More than that? I wouldn't have predicted that a pocket environmentalism, could could sustain itself with such a single polarity. Without this much more power it is romantic utopianism, which was

even there. It was there fifteen years ago, twenty years ago, but it somehow gone. So you don't get that picture from from gretta ton. You will depression depression can be all consuming, you know and it s no one another thing you pointed out very blatantly. He said well, what's really going to threaten us, he wrote about this in the nineteen fifties is, unexamined, psychic epidemics and he meant psychological epidemics and their effect on the political structure, because he thought well, we ve become the most full force on the planet and now our unrecognised psychological. What would you call them? you are illnesses is good enough. They're gonna marry, asked themselves in all sorts of ways that are going to be extraordinarily dangerous, given our power so so you ok, so you were attracted to just a quick note on that. Yet practice of the plastics chapter I dont think I didn't get there. I didn't my thinking, hadn't quite advanced enough, but I kept finding behaviors

in very similar to obsessive, compulsive disorder or eighteen around plastic waste cases. people who were like just they had to go out and clean up waste they had to sort the waste they had to separate the waste out there It's an obsession where a good waste has to be in the right, trainers and look at it upset when you don't on the right containers- and this- is it of course, also there's something around sustainability as a denial of death in ireland on earnest backers, great were new trial death. Here, whereas we gotta have sustainability sustainability, crianan, immortality project for people and then I shall of course, The problem is these: to recycle plastic waste have completely backfired because we don't it doesn't make sense economically to recycle plastics. You should cycle aluminum paper, tin cans, aluminum cans, but but six should go in the landfill or be incinerated, because

already a byproduct of petrochemical industry. There already down cycle the aperture I call those plastics meant that, because I didn't since economically the recycling companies which ship all of the other plastic waste poor countries where they would end up in the oceans. I mean this is one of the most tragic and almost I wish I could say tragicomic, but it's like we are not just like. Never plastic is really interesting in relationship to OECD. You know I had clients who were particularly obsessive about plastic containers yoke Containers not sorted. Thank us with www. When you have oecd- and this ass often happens to people as the age as I can't make the difficult decisions about when something is no long longer useful and also their house gets cluttered up with things that happen. you could use and with one listen, I'm thinking of he had great ethical inability He had had an inability on ethical grounds to throw out yogurt contained,

for example, because while you could use them to store something in your fridge and there's, so there is an o c d element to that. That's interesting! It's it's an orderliness which is an element of conscientiousness, that's gone astray and that is associated with disgust. its activity. So that's it. thank you also talked about discussed sensitivity in relationship to vegetarianism, which is also something that nobody has really examined. Interesting, enough so when the fun parts of apart Never is that I had never worked on plastics or meat and they were totally a new subjects for me and there the chapters that people have responded most strongly towards, and they were the most fun for me to write. You know. I saw them each after. I discover this paper by these italian psychologists and who I interviewed where they said. Look, they said what what's going on with its area since not all of them, but a lot of them is that they view eating meat as the contamination of their bodily purity, with the essence of death

and I was just like one- I just I mean there you go and we know that it has at all right all the denial of that stuff bodies, as to those animals die. You know what I mean it's more than a mere symbolic association in it's part, but again part of that existential guilt that we all suffer from too, because our life is, based on death, I heard a committee and the other day remember, who was someone harsh like billboard? Probably is You know I realized the other day that every day something has to die just so I can live yeah exactly and that's a non trivial and that's part, Horror of nature that earnest Becker is actually quite good at detailing, and that's a great book, although I think it's profoundly flawed, but still a great book and cure I'd love to know how you think it's flawed, because he thought that the debt that every reaction to the reality of death was in some sense neurotic. There was no non neurotic wave of responding in these hero. Projects were all failures in some sense and so he's a real frighten enter

dingley enough in the internet, into Becker's book, which I read very carefully. He attempt to bring closure to the psychology of religions. That's what Becker was up to and he said you might be set three. Be surprised that I dont discuss any of youth work on alchemy in a book that attempts to bring closure to the cycle religion, but then he says: well, he couldn't understand what you're getting out and just go there and I thought well. You made a huge mistake because this solution to the problem that you so eloquently described is actually in all of that work and that something to do with well, it's too complicated to get into, but eric- norman, wrote a book called the origins and history of consciousness, which is his other great work, which is a real antidote to Becker, and I say that with all due respect has Becker's bottom was great So it's really worth knowing about that other book, because it's it's pathway out of the darkness and can well

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the season of style, rebate, savings event, that's hundreds, Stockholm, slash Jordan for limit time savings offer expert. there's december six to them in twenty one please enjoy the rest of this conversation with michael shell. Amber did the whole history of the development of universities in the west would have been altered so yeah, it's very interesting examples, I stay at me. I think that I think the becker reading of the italian psychologist finding that people fear the contamination of ice it that is triggering their own fear of death? You could say its guilt that you know all this prosperity and our including mediating, is all resting on blood. horror in death and destruction. In that light itself depends on death but getting back I would say maybe he's wrong, I don't know, but its action He deserves a really is reminding people that they too will die. It's not just that you felt guilty for having killed some.

it's a reminder that you too will die and thus its actually triggering anxiety that you're not leaving your life in the way up to also, you know it's also array a revive invocation of the religious instinct in a very primordial manner. So let's say you know it became too spiritualized and then subject to intellectual critique, which was be successful in some sense, and so ok, bang the highest ideals blow apart, gods dead, Where does the religious instinct reemerged while it goes down into the body, and we start to become concerned about such things as what foods or peer and what foods aren't and that's a real it's it's lowest level re emergence of the religious instinct, and so the cycle start all over again. So no chasen away, that yeah they're going to say something else which is sort of like you traditionally or you know at least some point in history. When you kill an animal, it's a sacrifice.

is that you are doing for the gods or more modern version of that is that you ve, killed this animal and you think, for the animal, a more pagan version is that you'd think the animal. But nonetheless, it's like I'm in grace, which I entered used to some amount of resistance in my own family, but has become the singularly important ritual for me. is to say, is to express gratitude to me. One interesting question would be you know it's like that: or gone, but it's like if it would, with. The young people in particular, who become budgeting. Feel better about a year. Will you can a tone with grace right? It's like, while you ve, had to kill something here. We killed something. You know that at a life and it wasn't without value and so can survive it's well what justice Is that while we should at least recognise it, you have own for it too, which is at one that means to bring yourself into a form of the union and what you're hoping is that the sacrifice of? creatures. Life is me.

Justifiable by the power of the ethical actions that you're undertaking in that's supposed to be something nontrivial. You know it's like you things to live. Well, it's your life worth that, or should you just put an end to it. You know, so you stop doing terrible things. That's a real question that really bothers people like it bothers people to the point of suicide delity. These aren't trivial issues and greece is a very interesting ritual at least that unites you in gratitude. Yeah. I wasn't diseases, communion commute and taking body of christ taking what of Christ. It's a really important ritual, and so that's gone now today you what you want, doesn't matter right and an kids raised in that the that sensibility in matter and then suddenly it's like wait a second these this meat was a living creature, a living like they are not able to. I say that because we have removed the interpretive structure for them to be able to process it and a healthy way. I made this point, I'm it well, it's

so not trivial that you eat the communion wafer right so that means to embody it in the deepest possible sense to bring this spirit into your body and embody it, and so the owl that is symbolically tangled together in a very interesting way that needs to be taken apart very carefully. So, ok, so got very far into the book, we're still into the introduction with extinct, ok, so mass extinction, half of us are going to die like by twenty seventy. So what have you got to say about that? Yes, the claims that were in a six mass extinction are just false, just false like sometimes I have a criticism, something Robert I got to misleading or that's an exaggeration of the claims that were in a mass extinction are false. Six percent peace identified by the main scientific body, the international union of conservation of nature. Six percent are for our labelled critically endangered

even those six percent by the way- and I am- and I care about the six percent- and I I take actions- actually try to conserve more of those species but there's no reason to think that any other species need to go extinct. We can say if this species from it function, but a mass extinction is over. Seventy five, percent of all species on earth going extinct, but we're not anywhere close to that in the main fast you're behind with kills endangered species, decided killing them our right, often for food or second used in there, habitat tat mostly for agriculture. Since humans use committees, half of the ice free surface of the earth, and of that have over ninety five percent of it is for food production. Half of that half one quarter of the ice for service, just just for meat production will hear you Maybe the biggest piece of good news is the amount of land that humans used for meat production has declined by

area? Eighty percent the size of Brazil will that's a huge landmass over what over what period of time since the year, two thousand two thousand twenty years yeah and we will say how have we done? That was pretty darn easy. You can you can you can have you can produce a hundred cow is on an acre of land or what cow bags? So you just concentrate your animal production. There's an ethical issues that you have to deal with, but mostly in terms of at least cattle production, which is the big use of pasture. It's been there's a win: win: fur cow, the treaty cows humanely as a document on thanks temple granted temple grand and yes, She'S- really assumption that woman is incredible. Purse an arm and shows when neuro atypical people are able to contribute to this world and are really lovely way that they too need to become the

the negative side of that often yes, she says she thinks like an animal periodically. She thinks like an animal tat. I heard her speak at a conference on consciousness. It is a great talk, great talk and she should like magic and and She's done a tremendous amount for animal welfare, and this point nickel sense of actually fixing something absolutely gathered her. It turns out that cows, what they want, to a happy life is not the same thing is what we think we want cows to have. We think cows need to have a whole acres of land for him or herself cow. Just needs not be terrified before they died We need to be cleaned, stalls and stuff, like that. so there's a win. Win win on humane animal tree immense land use, which is essential to protecting species and human prosperity and development. In this, credible story, so the whole sixth extinction narrative. Is this false and idea bucket? If the way it's

as you alluded to earlier, we biodiversity in many parts of the world increase, but with, the rise of invasive species and you mean one want bat. So diversity is the wrong metric sullivan hawaii. You know if you we would look. This is a big business deserve. This is and is not the big issue is just a question of what species do you want on the islands of hawaii, you want the native species mean species that are there or the underneath that underneath that is also this issue of purity and disgust and borders. It's like well That was nature, for the invasive species and that nature? Somehow I lied in your mind with ethical purity, and these invasive species are somehow aligned in your mind with something disk testing and and propria end, there's an ethical element to that, and you haven't sorted any of that out in your thinking, because, like do the does it do and care less moves around and that's how it is, and so there's

there's a weird unexamined projection of a religious issue onto what's hypothetically a scientific issue and mucky thinking. What was defined as natural in hawaii or in the americas or anywhere is pre european. So the Purity is presume. Europeans are the contaminated, is right as the like the like the beginning Those people who are manipulating ecosystems that continent wide levels right through fire, mostly but also through hunting and extinct, I am certainly in the americas, but also earlier the world. You have this alteration of ecosystems by indigenous spear, indigenous people So, even if you want to save the species that were in hawaii before fifteen hundred or seventeen hundred, that's fine, but you can make a case. That's not on purity grounds or stir four grounds, because you're worried you, like those species here, there's some cool bird species that could go extinct. on the islands of why you didn't know if somebody the invite.

the invasive fine you just knit violating that environment you're doing did not out of sight, there's no scientific basis for it. You do it because we like those species and that's, and that's I and that's where I get to at the end of the book, where I kind of go. I can't if I show you a picture of an endangered mountain guerrilla wander or the congo, and unlike want to save the gorilla, and, if you like, I don't care about that guerrilla. That's a clue the values, there's no scientific argument, I can make to saving those bound guerrillas. I think they're, really beautiful and amazing magazine in their reminds us of our of our common ancestor whatever may be, but I know like that's- not going to be solved by some scientific canals know and we still have to. Even if that is true, we still have to have a serious discussion at the policy and ethical level about what steps are being taken by hypothetically, well, meaning ignorant westerners, who think in a low resolution manner and whose thoughts are contaminated by annette unaddressed. Ethical concerns asking poor

people in developing countries to sacrifice their lives often to protect animals. It's like Well, first of all that isn't going to work in the long run, because they're just going to kill the damn animals and that's exactly what you would do if you were there as well and and they're, not, can't just ignore them in that kind of gets shunted into that. Well, you know their human beings contaminating planet, any ways and saw the animal should come first or something like that and not helpful. I know, and as you mentioned, I mean I there's three main female characters in my book My book, by where I was accused of low supremacy, which is now just kind of like whatever it is now over, because every white supremacy, but the three main characters in my book, our bernadette who live in Congo and suffering these trade offs soup party, who left the farm for working in factories in india. and my wife, Helen they're all women of color and they all.

Sport has described these stages of development and why the development why he can development, is good for them, as in Joe human beings, and is good in and of itself and as the two It is actually good for the natural environment to hear them, this plan, this chapter, sweat shops, save the planet, that subchapter I think that would make you a lot of friends so so how sweatshops save the planet exactly. How do you justify statement like that? Why this, because in eliminating than a late night anti nineties, I was working on and activists campaign to criticise nike for its factory conditions in indonesia, and I, as a by a twenty years later, I went back to indonesia to see how things work just to see what the impacts were in my views, will we changed our factories and gonna for two hundred years to fifty years. Women move from the farms where they are paid sickly servants to their parents

serving a serpent. They move to the cities in its just liberation. Yes, the life and work in a fact which really are amulets terror. not give our subsistence living on a farm, but not a farm and sue party is the factory worker who profile here. You know she has her own scooter. She has her own home she's, like in her early twenties she can marry. Whoever she wants. I mean amazing right, she's, a muslim still muslim, but she's she's left behind. But I come to the city. The trip not practice of arranged marriage yeah as part of that unconscious worship of those sort of e walk villages that you described in the only person, you would think that subsistence farming is somehow like a utopian goal is only someone who so far removed from a farm that all they have in their head are images from children's books about like fairy tale. Village is something like that because it's just so community

it's like Elizabeth, any irish joke. That is always the utopias rising Elisabeth in england, It is always a greater renaissance, we're going on at the same time in everyone's in there now you know, there's no of truth in it in out when you go to ask for when you got a really poor parts of sub saharan africa, as I did before I saw it double endangered monkeys here, you're walking villages that don't have any electricity and there was a church what's going on and they started singing and it was I was like off, it is ass, attic and beautiful and yemen is not electronic radios blaring. Whatever now same village. Infant mortality is really high in a village, for women are very low, not dimension, gay. You can't there's nobody, you can't be gay and those villages sneak greek be killed, so there is something that does get lost with modernity,

absolutely the stuff that you gain has been completely forgotten and nobody remembers it. I want No, never have I not been around all socialist in my teenage years and went to nicaragua help the sandinistas. I worked in brazil to help the anarchists o landless workers, movement, and you know you would meet young people and you start talking to them. They do like hey. How do I get to the city and it be like you believe what we're trying to create a workers' cooperative here and be like yeah man I just want to get to the university and the city. Can you figure out how I can do that and that changed me and I and and working alongside folks, is their clearing rain forests, that is fine, maybe hit rocks. When I was a kid, I have tried to take stump the ground. You do that, for cartoon. Just see how far you get picking rocks out of the field. Doubts quite the entertaining work, so yeah makes you much more four were not just your own life, but also for this incredible process that we called development and of which is really just

zation industrialization. So I wanted to say was never to sort of remind people entered Is that reality to people and also to see that it's not the case where the egg the picture people have? Is that you industrialize, and then you destroy nature, now, subsistence, echo of her at the forest frontier, which is driving the destruction? critical hangar means poverty? Isn't that so cool, though, is not so cool when you stepped back and look at it like all partners, is causing a tremendous amount of environmental damage. So if we could make people rich and make things better biologically, let's say more sustainable and actually the way to do the latter is to do the former make people rich as fast as you possibly can. Then they start to care. So absolutely and you say that to people's like resistance. Like. Oh, I see you don't want people to be rich on a healthy planet. So, what's up with you exactly if that's bugging you what's going on, that's a good goal and it all the same

environmentalist. I've talked to lomborg is like being at the pinnacle of that. In many ways they Come to that conclusion,. And marion to be as well as like when I know if you look at what happens the edge women, birth rate plummets and that It would be a problem in a hundred years. There won't be enough people read too many, but that have instantly, even in one generation and so that the solution to population control, assuming we needed that, and so that's in alignment with every feminist school and then as you, people out of this slash and burn agricultural cycle. Well, they start to be more efficient in their use of resources and their you're not living hand to mouth until you make people rich and they become environmentalists like ok, that isn't what we ve been told, but that's how it works out one or two with apocalypse. Never I wanted to build on the work that we and others have done. I feel like. Sometimes what people here

when they read those analyses? Is they here well you're saying we should just get rich and then with wealth weakened by environmental quality, and I wanted to paint a better pendulum, a packet having benefit analyses have a lot of good, but they have a lot of assumptions- and I think those assumptions need to be unpacked for people so The issue is that at what how it that becoming rich, saves environment. Well, it's because bernadette in the congo gets to move to the city asked bernadette hate would you would you, like? live in the city and have a job at a factory she's like Hell. Yes, is there one no ass upon the congo, but but it's not like the picture that he will have, which comes in part from marks. You know it's in capital, the tragedy, not a charge, the comments of dark, say: technic meals, yes, eggs,

can picture that like these, these bees, these happy subsistence farmers have been forced into slave. Like condition is the factories women? Nineteen that attended the opposite? They would like to go to the cities there. we need to go to the cities, socrates and then, when they leave their their frankly low, productive, crappy, low well behind much of the time reverts to grassland and forests, so that, like us, crying about the loss of the family farm. I say this with my alma brig my months hard, because here we lost the family, in our generation, but for many people losing their families are, is fine like beggar just like you was terrible. You know for much of the world and then a reverse. if the grasslands and forests just like it has in north america, I mean so much marginal farmland. I I know I don't remember how many more percentage wise trees there are in the northern hemisphere since one hundred

years ago, but like forty percent and then that's another thing, that's really interesting. Is that and that you don't hear much about. Is that huge chunk The planet has greened over the last twenty years. To, I think it's an area, the size of the? U s, some staggering staggering amount of land anyways and that just here comes up. It's like and the idea I didn't know is well until about six or seven years ago, that were, in all likelihood can a peek at about nine billion people, and then it's like that's gonna plummet, real fast, like really fast by all appearances and so, and we can We can certainly sustain a population of nine billion, as far as I can tell, without wreaking environmental havoc, especially as we get smarter, technologically and that's happening so fast that we can't even keep up with it. You talk about fish farming in relationship to that, for example, yeah I mean look first of all produced so much food, I mean Jordan, it's crazy review twice

five percent food surpluses, I mean we prettiest twenty five percent. food and we need we ve never had surpluses that large of share of total through production or total side and during the same period when we use the less and less land so were producing more and more food unless, unless land, this is like one of the good this human success stories of all times. We struggle with overweight, destroyed with obesity, which are worth having too much food in the future. like what having not enough people in some countries rarity are mean that gives me some is that you know the new york times had a front page story. If you, its ago about how the problems It does not happen in debt to the negative population. Growth rate to population decline you know, we knew really in the late sixties. At the time when hysteria of overpopulation was the highest, we knew that the rate of increase was had peaked in declined, really had to put up with another twenty years of justice apocalyptic nonsense around too many people. My hope is that

same thing will happen on climate change is already happening in carbon emissions, as you pointed out, a decline in the united states I twenty two percent since two thousand and ten. Why is that? What we should have a little chat about that? Why is that? Because no one predicted this so yeah, I mean natural gas in the short short version right in practice is very familiar with that kiss was everywhere: northern Alberta, which is saturated with hydrocarbons everywhere, you know, and so was big part of the economy in tracking was part, of course, there forty years ago, but it so and this is so interesting to from from an economic power. active when you think about environs policies like the environmental breakthroughs, didn't come where we expected them to come, and you cited you cited mit scientists age, one five. I wanted to read this cause it, so it's so unlikely. I think that's, I hope I've got it in the right place here. I won't read it I'll, just say

He says if you really wanted to decrease car in the atmosphere. You might want to celebrate the rate at which coal is being burned in india, so it's done unpack, because you think we're cool and india and lower carbon. What what's that about. so that's carry a man you over mit and he points out that rising prosperity, cold, coal, powered asperity now will result in people how choosing to have fewer kids and ever you'll have fewer people in the future producing more pollution, the the this the specifics of how that works minutes, basically stories that prosperity. We should view prosperity as essential to protecting the natural environment in part because of the kinds of population but also because we are moving towards cleaner sources of energy once you get away from wood. So

words really bad then call well calls gondola cleaner way, cleaner, as you point out in your book, and so that's really, that's a really good thing, and so, but call isn't, is good. Let's say, as natural gas it may be, natural gas is good, is nuclear. Now, who knows cause that's complicated, but it's stability, and so you want to get people away from word as fast as possible. That's part of that, given away from zero to write in terms of economic growth is when you are at issue still subsistence level. You dont have of time to be making the future better you're just trying to survive. Today you can't get off the ground, for the first time in human history we could get everyone off the ground. No one would have to be at zero then, to give the radical left is types credit at least hypothetically. They are concerned with all those people that are stuck at zero. Well, but they The unexamined environmentalism is interfering with that very complicated ways, and so well, it's hard sort. This all out, obviously,

part of what I wanted to do to go beyond. I think some of the unity traditional criticisms of a binding journalism who is the sort of say, look, there's a truly the netherlands process of energy progress wouldn't dong to call and hydroelectric dams to oil and natural gas to nuclear so we can talk about nuclear but basically which doing. Is your shrinking the footprints? The land footprint required to prove those fuels to basically zero or so To give you a sense of it, you know, like coal has at least twice as much energy, a lump of wood, You go oil and gas. You two significant increases buses coming from underground, rather than above ground or having to do Mountains, as you do for coal nuclear uranium. I mean I mean this amount less than this. of uranium, that amount of uranium provides me with all the power any of my entire life a whole high energy life is complete,

available to you get one. We should have a bit of a chat about energies like ok, what's wealth that that want to deliver to poor people. Ok, what wealth energy make energy cheap? There's! No poor people why workers work requires energy and wait produces everything in. So if energy is dirt cheap, there aren't poor people, and so do not want to have no poor people. Cheap energy man sure saviour and, as you said, if we do, this half ways intelligently is always are also extremely good for the planet. So so well, but the whole system has to come down because I, depressed? So well, that's not a very good argument, and you know that depression issues interesting to cause. I thought about it: depression, technically in terms of hierarchy of values for a long time, so this tone in system when when it becomes depleted, it takes less punished.

To stop someone, an animal or human being and so You could imagine that if you're depressed- let's say- I know you forget to you- forget pick something up for for your wife say and if you're not depressed, you think. Oh, I forgot pick something up for my wife I should do that again, maybe apologize, but if you're depressed you think you all. I forgot to pick up something for my wife only a selfish person would do that. So that's one level up. I think new selfish things all the time I'm bad person and people are not good and the future is bleak and then every single negative issue cascades up the entire hierarchy until it becomes apocalyptic. That's what happens in depression. You can't buttress yourself against punishment, Why not anxiety as well, but technically and its low serotonin. That's partly why people hate to have their status challenge, because status.

The higher you are in status. Better. The serotonin system is at dampening the response to punishment because it assumes the environment safer, so those of necessary things to know when you're thinking about your own thinking. You know is it. This is not a part of that depression sequence, which is also like some The world is to blend aim for me, failing to take my wife's name for her birthday, there's some sort of external like why should have had their ears you're. Looking for your look, your ex so so, the depressed person goes goes. something wrong with the environment, You know what one of the things that also happens in depression is an increase in volatility, and volatility is tightly associated with anger and its under diagnosed by physicians because depressed people ten, only to be volatile to people who are lower than them in the status hierarchy, and so they'll be perfectly in the darkness office, but they'll snap, at their children, their wives and and and

stern lies some of that so part of emotional, this regulation. This is- this is the psychological concert of displacement and this was not my inside but the inside of of of some other effect of psychologists hired by the us government and then in the early seventies. They found that baby boomers were dead. Please see their anger at a world of nuclear weapons and I know you ve written on this too, and I certainly am- I grew up. Oh you know I've agenda. and when I was twelve years old, I was subjected to this apocalyptic nuclear movie that nuclear weapons on the day after that was an five. I think a or eighty two eighty two eighty their area. Eighty three, you can't do anything about. That we're weapons. We can't we ve remained revolves This is why, but basically we know-

I you know if one, if two countries got rid of the nuclear weapons, then went to war. The first thing they would do is reconstruct their nuclear weapons. Everyone sort of had this sense. So then we displaced our or go: are fears of nuclear weapons on two nuclear power plants and said the move this? the protocol, the eighty nuclear movement makes them. shift in the south these were they start kind to women. They don't totally stop, but they know they can't get rid of nuclear weapons, so they start to try to run a nuclear power plants, and I thought that was one of the most interesting cases of kind of collective placement. I interviewed folks about and asked if it was conscious. and they everyone said no. It wasn't like that a meeting and said we can cure a nuclear weapon surrendering nuclear power plants, but I think it's clearly I was going on and I see I now see displacement which I think we can can call scapegoating. Maybe three We are in a lot of different circumstance.

People are some of its lack of clarity of thinking right, and that goes along with that depressive tendency is well our nuclear power plants linked to nuclear weapons. Well, yes, there technologic sophisticated. So there's that linkage you need nuclear power plants to build nuclear weapons, and so you know that's all bad cause, it's apocalyptic and malevolent and fair enough. But again you need screw emanation in thinking, and we were also at a point where think discrimination, is always a bad thing when it all it is what, in its positive guys, is kennedy to separate out what isn't good from what is good and we have to do that all the time, so we we have to be very careful with that and so we're sorry go ahead. Oh just report on nuclear. You know, I think, there's also I interview a close friend who is not totally convinced of the roles of nuclear, and I said it sound

it's like part of what you're upset about with nuclear is that nuclear weapons have able wised relations between nations. No political scientists call it deterrence principle, between nations, not just the business of a union that we now see it with india and pakistan and that really that peace was created through a bomb rather than through, rationality and brotherly love and varies a very sophisticated purse and she said yeah. That's you got it of course, that's depressing that it was the bomb that achieved peace rather than why tonight, not that depressing, because, partly look, I think, around nineteen. Eighty three, we all made a collective decision that things good? No. So we shouldn't blow ourselves up, I think, was lurk in under the surface ever since world war two like, while maybe we should just call the whole thing off and burn everything to the ground. You know, and you see that you think on all

didn't happens like while these these people like, stolen and and hitler like, I really think, Hitler's fundamental motivation was to see europe destroyed and inflamed. He got exactly what you know: we're domination in utopia for germany? Well, look there's this! psychoanalytic adage, you don't understand the motivation, look at the consequences and infer the motivation are committed suicide in a bunker. Well, Berlin burned in europe was in flames like yeah. That's pretty much exactly what it was aiming for. Why? Well that's it question. Why are you so sure the whole goddamn enterprise to shouldn't berne and the end of it? justness in all of its suffering, and I think we kind of decided well know that maybe that's premature judgment. We can still make things good enough so that we can to fire own existence to ourselves and the flip side of That is the reason they created the bomb was the end of war and to prevent war

That was the reason that we think we're gonna go people condemned nuclear because they think the motivations around the motivations were not wrong, and I quote: meals for Niels bohr, the great father of quantum mechanics. He he before I was invented he says, to oppenheimer nineteen. Forty four in new mexico, he says this bomb is gonna, end war, as we know it, you know it's gonna, hafta and war, and in and in that, but that was why they were racing to create the bomb is because they want to stop hitler. from building it and then they and then themselves prophesies. The scientist knew that it would bring it into war now. I dont think that made everybody happy, though, because I think some people had a really different vision of how to end war. We know they did, which was brotherly, love and and and rationality, and that didn't happen now what The cold war ends in the late eighties. Early nine not happened a bit because even people like stolen who was pretty much as bad as you could get and still be human didn't blow.

everything up so that is their like it in some sense, there's some nontrivial, brotherly love and rationality still operate even in almost every right right, yeah, yeah yeah, but as for self interest rate. Like you didn't look if you're far enough gone cut yourself just so you can bleed or somewhere else. Sir. I think you make a good point. I think you're really good point. It turns out that the these lie when we call it, we call it. You know we everybody when they get the bomb when the country gets the bomb or they're about to get the bomb. the things that we say, americans say as we say where we can't let them get the bomb because they're suicidal. If king John, gets the bomb in north korea? Well, heeled, he's suicidal without turn out to be the case. You know So I think that I think yes, I think you're absolutely re yeah, So far, yes, all so far and No- and I would just add too, you know is like that- the

war ends and the threat of nuclear war goes very much lower than what it had been. The people who wanted something to see apocalypse and shifted from nuclear weapons to climate change that that's what it occurred in ITALY. difficult approve, but it is notable that climate emerges as the new apocalyptic threat when the threat of new, your war declined significantly. And it also ordinary something deep about that too. I mean it's not it's not accidental. the bible has an apocalyptic book at the end of it. It's like this idea that we think could end and that everything could fall apart. True in life you have apocalypse, is in your life all the time and and its view A daunting too can to think about that hard. to fall into a pit while you're thinking about that, and so we do have this

have a serious discussion about how to protect ourselves against unwarranted apple, apocalyptic thinking. That's all playing out too. With a covert issue at the moment, so human, psychological frailties, we have to take them seriously because we're a planetary force so absolutely yeah I mean I in theirs. I cite this incredible book. By of alsace. Meal is to build cases, advisers where he asked It does look at the different apocalyptic threats and what he comes up with as the biggest ones, and I changed my mind too. I think he's right he's like much more worried about asteroids wars. Influenza is in super volcanoes than climate change. When you look at both probability, and severity. So I totally agree you should we should take, but I became but I'm I'm big, I to see more money going into asteroid collision prevent and when you really look at the history of asteroids position, should take us seriously together. We should also guard against

clearly unwarranted apocalyptic thinking I mean you know the truth, matter is when you really look at the science I'm a change! there, isn't the end pc to its credit, does not include any apocalyptic scenarios. There isn't a good scientific scenario for how the world would end from climate change, like you just have a hard time coming up with, and so you should say that again, because that's quite a striking statement, the eye in the pc, see reports, there's no apocalyptic vision, right from a bad didn't, even they don't even they don't even say, When they say more, people could die from climate change. What they are actually saying is they say if all elsewhere, equal meaning, if you didn't have time change and you have the same high level of economic growth but natural disaster. have declined over ninety percent of the last hundred years. They declined night, you, nine percent in places like bangladesh, just through better storm warning systems and storm shelters. There is no prediction, the IPCC, that more people-

will die in the future from natural disasters than die today that doesn't exist. There is no scientific body that is predicted an increase from natural disasters or an increase of deaths from disease or the things that people worry about climate change, all based on some idea that, yes in a warmer world you could get. were destined. You would get if you didn't, have any warming at all we're not even an option, and it doesnt account for the fact The additional warming is a byproduct of higher levels of growth, which we write just going to mitigate all of that damage and hopefully have positive environmental, environmental consequences, and so ok. So, let's tackle another hard question. Another hard question So one of the pitfalls, I suppose of epoch, apocalyptic thinking- and this is true- perhaps practically as well as psychologically, is the notion of a runaway positive feedback loop and so well the green green land ice packing,

and then the other now the currents in the oceans change because of that specially the warming current that keeps england from not being arctic, that disappears, and that happens like in two weeks and the whole. Damn thing freezes and world dead and so and run away positive feedback loops do happen. Not I mean that's that that that's not inconceivable. So how do we know win how do we deal with that say practically and psychologically? Well, let's but the eyes first of all to the west in arctic ice shelf, and we were about a green land So when they worry about the losing those ice sheets ozanna, two weeks, it's in seven hundred years to over a thousand years- that's the period which there They are worried about us losing those ice sheets. So you're talking about an incredibly long period of time, in terms of the gulf stream, which is how I initially became apocalyptic about climate change late. Ninety nineties was reports that the gulf stream,

would shut down or that you would stop having the warm air being broad front. Neither warm water and air being right from the south to the north. and that was how I originally got fearful of it. Well, the first thing you realise when you hit those reports, is that today which has been changed and the gulfstream over history. They have occurred just on their own, like does a natural cycles so exciting caused by humans, but there No evidence that that's being caused by climate change that at some risk of of shutting down the gulf stream. I just debunked it right. Suddenly, in some of the reporters just be it's like mean that these reports will repeat every ten years or so, and they end up confronted confused, feel about it. I called on the most recent tipping point study published in teacher as an opinion. Peace must have been twenty nineteen- I interviewed, the lead author of It- and it's The kind of a bunch of speculation I mean they they

is why I does not included that's. Why actually not science? It's not something. they call science or compare including their predictions. And I have written about, goes and they whole scenario of ice sheets and the gulf stream in the amazon however, how it would work exactly and then he can well, you know, because the real problem is that at first they thought There would be more that greater warming would bring more rainfall to the amazon and then the scientists change changed their minds now to think it'll bring bass. So you have these so called, back loops that we don't even understand which direction much of the time they would go in so it's not to say that you shouldn't worry I mean you know: bjorn, glass, ok, so one of the things one of the things I always told my clinical clients when they were worried about something was way hyper worried about that. But you're not worried about a bunch of other things like are you hyper, worried about taking action, but you're not worried at all about not taking action like well, where there

be a disaster lurking there too, like theirs, this notion and unexamined notion that there is some safe route right, right and so that's generally not the case, and so there is a more probability of an unexpected positive feedback loop and perhaps that might even be, and with climate change. Who knows? There's a small probability of that, but then there's so the danger of panicking unnecessarily about hypothetical positive feedback loops and then spending a tremendous amount of money and demolishing things counter productively and that, are you so sure that's not a bigger danger and, and so Yeah yeah! I raised my view ticket. If you take it out the climate, as you do, asteroids you go. should really be spending much more on asteroids, what's the right amount to spend on asteroid detection, because we could spend a lot more on astrid detection. Will you put to the vote? the whole gdp to ask for detection, and then there might be a super volcano and will be, and spend the money on investing in a super volcanoes or sending observers

I'm a change, an electro magnetic pulse from sun which, like a really high probability event once every hundred years, basically in one took out the quebec power grid like nineteen eighty six right, the whole northeast out, it's like that can really happen, they other or upon the problem is with the park lips, as is their everywhere. It's like, so You know what do we do about that? That's a hard question, but panicking and produce Panic apocalypse is not a good, a certain panic apocalypse right, that's not a good answer. I guy actually worked for a while with a group of astronauts who were attempting to produce. This gadget whale space that would nudge, asteroids a tiny fraction of what using huge metal played just deflect them a tiny bit and they would the earth and it was a very well thought out proposal, but it never in it didn't part capture the popular imagination, let's say so,

and one that is also one of the things I kind of like about lombards approach to its future EU tries to rank order, catastrophes in some sense right and costly. that analysis does have the flaws that you describe. But you know until we come up with or method or I'd see someone with a better method. I'm pretty attracted but he's doing its practical and I haven't seen anything better. So you know, maybe you know something better yeah. We just sit upon one another positively to state. As you say, we need to be resilient to many different kinds of catastrophes right to grant means that we need to embrace economic growth and resilience sea, because often the if you're doing the same things that you would do for a lot of different, you wouldn't have a you want to have a robust security system, a robust detection system. I have a good scientific and technical class in your country yeah. Well, it may be. You stop terrifying. Your young people into depressive neurosis too, because the best way to have a resilient society is to have people who are you know, stalwart in the face of

the unknown yards of that kind. the bottom of things sweden s an called. Why I'm not a progressive where I was pushing back against the recent? U report, which said no one is safe. We yeah I know it's gonna die. You know where I was, and I was pushing beckons- hears you kind of this like that- is the opposite mentality of how you deal with any kind. any other way you got any crisis or any threat is we can do it better. That's the only that's the only thing that we know the works, The eighty, though my god we're all gonna die, that's the opposite! Nobody why bother of eating a reason to die so but their alone is a shift. I feel. Like my generation, I mean I grew up with heroes were nelson mandela. You know man with a king guy. d, you know, and we might you in our even those socialist revolutionaries who I have significant concerns with, but they there, attitude was not we're all gonna die. It was

not no one is safe. The attitude was, we can do it now. We may not agree with their utopian projects and may situations, but this real shift. I think in the last twenty years is this Divine, isn't it a funny thing that that shift has taken place? Well, things have got so dramatically, better means. You know that the degree which we ve been able to act as a species to eradicate poverty, essentially all throughout the world, except for when its caused by political stupidity is actually is absolutely beyond comprehension rate and men, the law that has taken place in the last fifteen years and and the and the speed which that is occurring appears to be accelerating break. is it the anxieties coming from Europe? hands, let's say and elites in in the united states and Canada who are saying we don't know our place in the world. We used to be at the top of the pecking order, and now china is rising. It isn't so sure. Where it stands, will you kind of go it's hard?

To see that's for me, I see that, as the connection is that its lake it's a really the rise of china, the eclipsing of europe's power, and so why does europe elevate credit tunbridge? a child's right is nigh because There are insecure about their place in the world now looking well and they think they're also wrestling with something we are going to wrestle with is like well we do with our prosperity We're not scrabbling around the dirt anymore, and thank god for that, because you know our kids all died and it was really hard and, and so now we can sit back I think, okay! Well, what is it we're up to? Well, we don't know exactly what to do with all this product. We should eat a bunch, that's kind of feat, part of the the solution for the last forty years. Eight more and fair enough. You know, god wouldn't take us. three generations to adapt to us plus a food. Wherein is that ever been impossibility and if so, where wake we're waken in some ways, trying to figure out what to do with this? I mean you, Europe,

had. The attitude is that now we get to help africa to become rich Now, africa, everybody gets to become rich and in the process they get to have parks with wildly You get to have both that is actually not a trade off they get to have cities they get to liberate their women and and Gays and lesbians can be free and big african cities, as opposed to being persecuted in place like uganda like that, could have been approved. in fact, for a minute there, it seemed like it was going to be, you might remember bonnet, had this program called make poverty history in the room, two thousands! It was this idea that we're gonna, forgive jubilee, we're gonna. Forgive me the debts of the poor countries and Europe can become developed one, party, no part of the room is area african. We can develop our part. Well, europe to a bomb. mean part of what happened to produce this economic miracle, the last two, since thousand, what's really since nineteen, eighty nine, because what happened was the collapse of communism and end the incredibly horrible consequences

I having so many of those so called d in countries fall under the sway of these completely pathological. economic ideas and that just went away and so part of the reason people richard, because we just stop doing so many stew. But things and even sub saharan africa the rate of economic, development is a has been magnificent over the last twenty years compared to well enough since the entire history of mankind before that, and so that, that project is still EL within our grasp, and it ended at heart. People do actually imagine this, and it was for me too, because I grew up- under the shadow of that nuclear threat. Him in all, my friends were apocalyptic to the core there is real danger. There mean that the keys were in the silos in nineteen sixty two, at least once so like we were on the edge maps, and so a lot of us did

feel we had a future in, and you know some of that was rationalization and depression, but some of it was while real existential problem, and now we could wake up and say- and this is some that's right. We have we can anything we want now for careful, no more poverty, there's something man the end we can, six, we can help. What are you the real environmental problems are now that we should be addressing and wouldn't let me answer that this saying one thing that I the one I do you hear me pushing back a little bit because I think you're right agree with you like ladys early nineties, ushered in this period of great prosperity, because china and the former soviet union became free market democracies I and- and there was a chance there- I think that the west could have been great now everybody's going to get rich and we're all gonna have wealth and prosperity and natural protected conservation environments. But we didn't the west got and

You got it fell into this apocalyptic radical I've progressive discourse and then my criticism the right. My criticism of the concern of really the free market. Cato institute right, agree with on so much but was that they did tat- the market into something of a god, and so it became a kind of free markets. him valorize as an end of themselves, rather than a means to prosperity rather than a means to a better future, and so I think that left the consumer's one question, You know you have, as I have said, are said. How did the rate lose to this. nihilistic apocalyptic environmental discourse, and why is this? Why why has the right not been able to compete with it, and I have now had the chance to testify Are the congress six times in the last year and a half to strive for the Senate and what I find is there publicans the progressive lit? The Democrats Republican progressives, they go the roles

to an end. We have to have radical action to deal with climate change and republic. And go. We need free markets, and that's not that's not match is not meeting. Have you met dan Crenshaw. Oh yes, I loved him. I did dance podcast, I use different he's. Getting he's taking me he's different yeah he's on the health committee and environmental committees and because he knows the republicans are weak there and there we can say it like an that's kind of that vague thinking to no technical reason and what we do have time for this discussion. Unfortunately, for you know the in some sense, the valorization of free markets, because there are cognitive mechanism, but we can be. I I still appreciate what you're saying part of the problem there is that that's just not a good enough story, And I mean that in the deepest sense to counter the powerful, apocalyptic narrative and you

opium and compassion driven narrative that that that the left weaves and and that's a real shortcoming of the republicans in part. You can see that in the fact that they can't talk to young people more, except for Crenshaw, he seems to manage that I agree. I did it. I think you're you're exactly getting that what I'm panic I haven't articulated it very well, but it's the idea. It's it's that there's a human stick message here which- everybody can achieve high levels of poverty and freedom while protecting the natural environment. In fact, In fact of the former, is a requirement of the lad high levels of wealth. Now people are going to gauge of making a freudians slip, cause you set poverty Hylas aria. High levels are highly very few high levels of of of wealth and freedom and protect the natural environment, and in that is such a powerful positive humanistic vision, humanistic instead. What I often hear is is both what we

have free markets as though that's an end in itself, and then also there's also even worse. I hear from Republicans are sometimes say: will china is the one that's really polluting the planet? You know it's I will China's is developing and mean they're there. Also trying to switch is fast. They can't from coal to natural gas and nuclear. But it's not like this. Narrow nationalism driving it's this. And of narrow nationalism, the narrow free market obsession as eclipsed. hidden. What is a really positive, bright vision of invite you all the other, but the other issue with the free market, like I I understand why free markets are necessary to confront unpredictable problems, it's because of the power of distributed decision, making, so there is a technical discussion to be had, but what's king? There is ok with fine, but where exactly does the developing individual fit in that with regard to their life while participate

the free market is like yeah, fair enough, but that's a little on the low resolution side. You know, and it's not working to counter this narrative. So obviously it's not developed enough. If you happen to be correct, you know, one. So I've seen something for you. People in conservatism, I think in my eggs. europe's is linking spawned civility to meaning and now I always when I was touring that that linkage We left the audience completely silent. It's like need meaning to counterbalance while the depressive apocalypse, let's say Well, where do you find it? Well, if you look at where people find it, more often than not in responsibility a conservative message it's like and it ties it to individual psychology and well that's been some success, I mean I know, there's other sources of meaning art and music.

beauty and none of that trivial, but a lot of it is where we need you to grow up and take your place and that benefit for you is you'll find meaning and not that you can set it against this terrible depressive apocalypse. It's this, isn't it optional. And so I learned that, at least in part helping guide people away from depression when those clinician it's like well, where do people find meaning intimate relationships, family community, That and that also underlines that utopian dream of the walk village. No, we want to community that were part of we need it, it's not optional! are the right hasn't done a good job of delineating ill tat. So yeah What about burner dad and sue party to say? Why do you want free markets because it's gonna help liberate bernadette and soup party from oppressive situations and achieve therefore

human potential yeah. You did a great job of that. That's a really good stories and- and it's so cool that you wove those narratives underneath all of this. You know you did a wonderful job of taking all this factual information and weaving it into a compelling and optimistic narrative without being without being naive and and also well illustrating your familiarity with a tremendous amount of information and never really doing that and a heavy handed way. It's really nice. It's easy to read to which, as you know, stunning so for you we're talking about we're talking about this book here, polyps, never it so I'd like to also ask you, if you don't mind about san Francisco, what's that, what's that about I'm so excited yeah. I just I literally got home from europe last night, and this was waiting for me. It comes out on Tuesday and this is a book is the second part of this trilogy, I'm working,

on about civilization, which parliament was the first part of, and the book looks at how victim ideology has is hurting people specifically its about drugs, crime and homeless thus in progressive west coast cities, but also the promised spreading. I point out that we have- really good solutions to these problems, including their drug scenes, which is the technical word for homeless encampments or these big sprawling ten cities where before using methods and heroin and dying at huge numbers while Ivan, It's on the environment, you know in the nineteen nineties I also worked on drug decriminalization and what's called harm reduction, and I advocated for needle exchange, which is giving addicts clean needles. They don't get hiv aids and when I left that work, around the year two thousand and seventeen thousand, but were dying from illicit drugs every year last year, ninety three

thousand people in the united states died from illicit drugs. It's a complete, it's just brutal. It's it's it's barbaric I'm very angry about this- a sad and angry about, what's happening to the place I live, I feel like, I feel responsible and I feel like I'm not living in a moral place. I feel like I'm living in a place that is depraved were human he has been denied because were were so far, of ourselves, we label people victim, and then we let them harm themselves, and we let them her mothers. Because a similar dynamic, which is that When the questions is, how did people that say they care so much about poor people and people of color and the mentally ill and drug attics? How did the out? How did those people end up? with cities where hundreds of people are dying from drug overdose is on the sidewalks. Every year.

frances san francisco? Is seven hundred thirteen people died last year from drug overdose in poisonings? Why are we allowing this when we know that we know how to deal with addiction a hundred years of experience and with addiction. Why are we doing it out question? I wonder answering in San francisco, why? Why does the left care so much about these killings of african americans, but doesn't seem to do anything or care at all about the african americans who are killed many times higher? by civilians? My way, what is the selective now image about, and so the book deals really there's a there's, a question for a t shirt, what is the selective outrage about well man? We could take about that for about five years right and everyone can apply that to themselves. It's like, while you're outraged by some things, but not others that seem equally outrageous. It's like ok What's going on there, exactly what you can't be

raged mode everything, but you don't answer. The answer is that the progressives are outraged by what they see as comes of the system and then just sort of mildly bothered by victims of other individuals so Why do we need my dad's? That's domination by the great father right? That's a psychological issue yeah. Well, you know you see these there's these existential route constance and you know right said: well, god was projection of father, not what he thought. All it was just that, and- and I mean he wasn't- that shallow, but actually that's the arguments like yeah. Well, there is some truth in that. Well, there is a negative. I of that symbolic image and and that dormant, some people, like other people, are terrified of mortality itself. That's the negative aspect of the great mother and we're all prone to that end: We don't understand it well, but it's there So this system is the terrain,

father and make no mistake about it like there's a tyrannical father the terrible dread weight of history, its no joke and but but so one sided if you're, if you're completely preoccupied by that firstly under conditions of relative security, freedom and all that then, while there's a another, psychological issue. There at the bottom of your psyche that you should attend to where you get dangerous, so I'm ok you're on my mind, because one of the there's a there's, a mother, Jackie berlin, late fifties, her son is a homeless attics. He could die any day trying to get em off the street, of course, the city, San Francisco is not helping her. The laws gangster hearst on refers to san francisco as pleasure islands or so familiar with your european analyses of pinocchio. That you're on my mind,

working on this and also the ways in which I asked the king. Is this monk housing syndrome by proxy? I ultimately conclude that that's problem way too extreme of a framing, but it is pathological. Altruism, I feel comfortable with that. Do yeah not so well, that's the freudian devouring mother by the way is pathological, altruism, so imagine that you're you're, a man Nation of maternal forced its as I will protect my children at all cost. Ok, in the basement in your arms while the snake, you right in that terrible attempt that that ultimate attempt to make everything safe right. which, in some sense is the goal of motherhood itself right is that you become the snake, and I thought this for a long time. You know and theological as well as like. Well the garden of Eden right and that's the symbolic story. there's a damn snake in there and like could god make Paradise without a snake, an answer

no, and no one else can either. If you don't know where who the snake is it's probably you and Freudians eatable nightmare is that devouring element of compassion, which we can't have a serious conversation about either it's like too much compassion, man infantile eyes as you, and there is no difference between not death. It's the same thing and the freudians to their credit? Well to their credit, said the mother fails and not have quite the thing, we die document. How prison progressives have just lied about what portugal and netherlands did so this research shows that amsterdam, lisbon, vienna, Frankfurt Zurich. They all did the same thing to break up these today is open drug scenes or pillar using heroin in public. You didn't have the ten but it is the same thing we have in san francisco in Vancouver

in a really all these he's running. I say we have the heart of the homeless. Encampments is a euphemism, for what the europeans call open drug scenes. They all a period in europe where they just the whole social services offering method on offer. Would you like some help? Would you like some care thanks. I will take. The methodology will keep using heroin, it didn't work, it didn't work anywhere, and so so and theirs paper on this, they. Finally surprised had to arrest people. You know had to use law enforcement and they the point? Was they don't they dont mandy treatment? You have a choice. You can either get the street. You can't be on the street shooting heroin in lisbon, your view, the head of Portugal's drug programme, as it. What do you do if you find some you shouldn't heroin in the streets of lisbon? You go they would be arrested. I was They would be arrested because if you listen to progressives in california in ice age, they would say on Portugal they just decriminalize drugs and everything was fine, its complete

tony lives, a big lie there the attics they take place. even if they have more than personal consumption and they get prosecuted if they have personal consumption amounts and they're using in public, then they put them in front of something called commission. for the dissuasion of addiction, which includes judge prosecutor, defence attorney social workers, psychiatrists your family so they're, using the worst of methods to compel they don't call and if you don't have to you You can remain in an attic, but you can't be on street using drugs and you can choose. If you want to get clean, we're going to provide drug treatment for you or you can go to jail. If you keep breaking the law, that's how it is in all these cities are slightly different in the different cities. Why We do then, here what do you know and then what I get to the boat by the punchline is because a victim ideology which says no, no, that would be blaming the victim and blaming,

victim. You go right to that. You got. This is the most sinister introduct and you know a ideological introduction of this idea that some people are victims and essentially victims, and only things given to while one of the real problems with that so imagine you have conception of pure victimization. Well, then, you instantly have deposit a class of pure malevolent oppressors because, like where else too, else could be possibly victimizing the pure victims. It has to be complete perpetrators while its unbalanced thinking right because we're all victims in some sense, as you already of history of of day, of illness and roll perpetrate there's two and you have to contain that seriously in and that marks the clean categories, especially if you want to be while pure, let's say easily that's not an easy thing to manage and you never will quite manage it. So

Well, I'm very much looking forward to reading that book, yeah I mean I'm really attracted to the heroes journey. About. You know this is a very powerful, I call on you know if you believe just campbelltown, it's it's oh met, an narrative over mademoiselle for western societies in inside sick o the real heroes are people that recovered from their addictions. And so in that process they are Adams. Victimization is a temporary stage, its state in the center of that journey that you overcome and that is that is the like you know, silver. I mentioned civil rights and gandhi, and you know Martin nelson mandela, whatever and you kind of go. That's what those that's, what we're drawn to stories were drawn to the heroism, so that gone here. Instead, its these people are victims

only thing should be given? Nothing should be. I it's also the case. You know if you know the addiction literature. This is particularly true with alcoholism, but it's not you. It's not unique to alcohol. it's been known among hard, headed addiction, researchers for like sixty years that one of the most reliable cures for alcoholism and there aren't any others by the way, regardless of treatment centre people say, is speed. you'll transformation and in at its base, that is that's a reflection of something like the heroes. That's a hard headed reality- and you know you see that happening pharmacological to some degree now with what's his name, the people who are doing the research with silver silent, showing in a dramatic effects on cigarette small for example, in a cellar simon, produces this mystical experience, and that has this curative that's all needs to become unpack. Dyslexia, not just some chemical thing happening. It's very, very common.

way more complicated than we can possibly understand. But yes, you're, just a victim or you're, certainly not the hero and will be in the euro is actually your way out of the addiction because look at this way man you need some better to do than to be addicted. It's not an easy thing to find, because those damn drugs hijacked your your pleasure systems, the cocaine amphetamines heroin, the real killer drugs. They hijack that, and so Get out of that. You need something better. Well, yeah, good luck! That happens, but, Yeah me part of the reason I wanted to right. This is, I was after covered hit. All my life plans changed and I started watching viktor frankl videos like oh you love as much as I do. I add to them up for him man I'm about I became obsessed with viktor frankl videos and, of course, sure I watch a five minute. Viktor Frankl video, like five minutes and why I was like I felt better

It was like the fastest cardinal behavioral therapy at every man. for meaning yeah so that so he's in the book- and I asked this question because Franco frankel is very popular with progressives in the bay area and elsewhere very popular, and yet the info personal life for self help, but then you get up politics and that's been viktor Frankl wants me is called blaming the victim. We would like literally you kind of girl. If you apply viktor frankl may eat, because reader freckles us forget about its own mentality. You could be in auschwitz and it's all, get your mentality right, and that means you have to have a goal. You have to live for something something specific, and if you don't have that thing, you will slip into depression when my dying to concentration camps right, so he says you have to have that goal, have you really? How is what happens? We're Your frankel is the celebrated figure in the nineteen. Sixty seven you'd come to berkeley and it would be your hundreds of students and just one

applause from the same moment, it isn't use this idea that asking vic circle asking your victims. Are people cast categorizes victims to do anything to take responsibility was itself, a kind of victimization how that happened now. So I was trying to figure out. How is it that these things got? Bifurcated emulated something something like. Being a mother is good, being the greatest mother is great. The greatest mother takes care of infants. The best possible way, well, then the victim is an infant, and I want to be good, so I'm gonna be the mother and so an that's great that's that's a real story, you know, but it's half the damn story and- and it doesn't include its quarter of the story. Actually it doesn't include devouring aspect of infant idealisation and so and there's a whole discussion that has to be had no one's been. You know. Able to have yet about what females

tell the terrorism would look like, because we ve only had what generations for generations worth of experience with women in the political realm and we have no idea what authoritarian with a feminine face would look like might be seeing the odd sign of it. Now I would find In my research I would talk to homeless, add progress homeless advocates. I put it in quotes because I dont think their advocates for the people in some sense or advocates front ideology, but they would say things like our unhoused population right and it would just creeped me iowa and you got the hand on the chest rate and that's like over the breasts, and that's our you bet. You bet our it's like. Well, they don't belong as you. the point is that they shouldn't be on the street. The whole point, actually need to be liberated from the street. They need to give me a break addictions and live their own lives, but they described them at least isn't infantilism nation of street

x and the mentally ill yeah. I know you can also understand that cause it to some degree. You know if you work with someone, it's a hard thing to get. This You work with someone. Who's got severe psychological problems. There is it. That's that unconditional positive regard that that roger speaks Of- and I think he was not- is clear that is. He might have been any certainly didn't, always practice that the way he indicated, but there is this idea that you sort of embrace the person you know, and then, but you also To demand a certain sort of trade, formation in an upward direction, and that's that in some sense, is getting the maternal paused abandon patriarchal paused, balanced. So it's knowing no elite images of all of its really the withdrawal all demands for taking responsibility, it's basically that any demands. That responsibility is viewed as an extension of victimization. And that's not how they do me answered enamel. It's also so debates deprives people, it's like the word

I noticed this again when I was on my tour, particularly you know, because there's this idea, for example, you can save a sixteen year old, sir you're just right. The way you are and that's that in maternal, embrace, right and fair enough, because people have intrinsic value, but it's so depressing for a sixteen year old here that, if their unhappy so like you mean I'm I'm good the way I am, but I'm so goddamn miserable. It's like no, you there's lots where do you get the hell up and get moving and they are so happy to hear that, like all. I'm miserable because maybe I'm not all I could be yet and so that, many positive, and that does it's hard to integrate that with the positive its while in everyone's struggles without in their own families. How much do you protect? Do you encourage dialogue, Is that in a relationship In amsterdam, and which I use as the best case of how to deal with this problem, went with might and main character who worked in the in the open drugs

is he just described at all about his positive relationships between police and social service workers they work together. But every time I asked about things you described in history, it would be about how, at first the police thought the social workers were just kind of fuzzy, headed, liberal types and then the live in the social workers who gave the cops as these really terrible, strict fascist yeah, yeah ashes got to know each other and in fact they would end up taking different roles of the copse, sometimes would be too soft. You know, and the social workers will be too hard, you know and they would sort of, and they would. and now these in the relationships last for a really long time, they're, not punitive. You know it's rehabilitated, They really like you said they really believe their personal it's plans which of course we get from recovery, you know, but they have personalized plans for each person. They really believe in those plans for people and they're, really Let me also accounts for them: the game choices. Carrots and sticks- you ve, always got a consequence for bad debt.

Sure, but some reward for positive behavior, so so your own apartment is often the thing that people you know you get in your shelters. Nobody likes to be in shelters. but your rewarded for good behaviour with your own apartment. That's what people want, whereas cisco, the the the written press sieves- have insisted that housing is something that you just deserve without The questions asked without any changes to your behavior. So if you're on the street, and your shooting heroin or whatever the idea is that its immoral to demand any changes. Behavior. You should just be giving your own apartments. Well guess what and in those apartments people I've been using drugs and die. I get that it ends up being like, death sentence zone even around two. Nor can them anymore. So it is pathetic. Situ amazed is pathetic. like literate people get, nor can they get revive from death, which we know This moment where people, if offered drug treatment, nearly died in a moment.

Really make a change in your life. You know it takes a clean. Your act that ticket. Sandwich scope? We, nor can you and then her back out, do drugs do not, within four hours. Shouldn't heroin are smoking fennel it Insane I mean it's, it's really a book that I mean the process of reach she met. There were moments where I just was lake everyone's gone completely crazy. well, it's not solved by single pair health care, although there may be a good idea, but vancouver is Nickel and vancouver, as you may know, you know, is ideal. In seattle in portland, and now it spreading afterwards and fully and yeah Think it. I see it as And parcel of the most so called civilised, educated progressive, of society, doing things that really are not just destroying you know human lives, but there also destroy neighborhoods destroying cities perpetually. the victimization in the name of protecting victims. Well, that's a good place to

stop. I really enjoyed your book. I think it's great. I really do it was fun to read it was engrossing, it's full of stories and in its unexpected, its data reared I am really looking forward to san francisco great title by the way, as apocalypse. Never, and so good luck, and I we can talk again about san Francisco. That would be real good, so much pressure did the talking and all your work coming to thumbs up as far as I'm concerned, and went away to knock out of the park. Thank you so much as a real pleasure to me. you and your definitely on my mind for both books, your work has made. You been made a really important intervention in the culture, and you still are- and I appreciate that child man will talk again,

ok I'll take you there, you, sir god, we rambled on for a long time. So what are you gonna say yeah? I was really good, though, actually thought that the end was a really good time. Does its again like we ve been dealing with this issue of like? Is it not sexy enough like how do we handle the conversation about being honest about climate change, and you know the consequences of the proposed solutions, and I don't. I don't know that if I don't know that it's not, we ve heard I mean- maybe it's just me, but I've between that really and bjorn. Marion and now you might call it. I dont know that it's not not sexier

I think that is just how in grade I just saw ingrained in people's minds. You can't even you can't even challenge. It is such a taboo topic that I don't know that it's. I don't know that it's lacking the sense of adventure, because, while conservatively moving forward one decade at a time, just eradicating poverty, what could be more advent adventurous than that to the left there? To look to the liberal minded.

Yeah well we'll we'll nibble away at will nibble away at ignorance before we presume malevolence- and I think you know all this so optimistic stuff is pretty new. You know all things considered it for you, because you're so much younger, it's sorta been there the whole way. But for me I didn't see anything of this sort of realist optimism until oh, my god, certainly after two thousand that just didn't exist at all. When I was your age, so it's pretty near part of it too. I think I just think you know Jordan. Your work has been so influential on me because you know the thing you said about and if you don't know what someone's motivations are it's good to look at the consequences of their behavior

here. I am sorry, the consequent yeah the countries who said that was that you, or did you quoting somebody. I think I got that from you. I got it for me, I'm psychoanalytic thinker, it might have been young, it might have been freud. You know too, but I think it was young but a heavy friday and influence there. Like oh yeah, it's us. I think they called at the psychoanalytic scalpel, something like that. It's and it's a devastating thing too, to turn that on yourself, it's like, I made sure I didn't want this cause, I sure caused it. It's like there's a super hero. I think a superhero narrative at work, at least for myself when I was apocalyptic that I I had a bit of a messianic complex, I think related to my parents, divorce and were and also just sort of some. You know some amount of narcissism and my my my kind of being praised in particular ways coddled. I actually do, and so I thought that my

Job was to save the fucking planet, which is just the most ridiculous thing. It's absolutely ridiculous. I'm the one who got an earth that, oh, my god, it's a met, messianic complexes, terrible you know, but in some ways it's like that's what the poor gretta tonne lorries is infected wealth. A lot of kids. Aren't you get it in the super here, a movie. You know page, we identified in this annex stage as part of development, but no one ever talks about doubting should first easy when they teach pay a J. It's like laid out lessons thats amiss annex stage So allow us that's embarrassing. You know we don't talk about that, because its religious, like temp, PJ's proposition, have you get out of it or how does it have you evolve out of it.

Burn well, you get realistic, I think you know because there's a kernel there, that's the hero's adventure to save the damn planet. It's like yeah, but you're. Just you. You know it's like you here. You are in a time and place, and so you have to make your redemptive acts concrete right. You have to you have to incarnate that principle deeply in your own life at the level of detail. That's how you do it and that's maturation. That's that's! Really what maturation is entered a mature, passing messianic without being wrought with the responsibility that comes with it and taboo in their right. Mind will will accept all of that response.

and it's very values on which the way we solved it to some degree in nineteen sixty was people just got married when they were twenty, it's like without girly up so we're being rewarded. I certainly was rewarded in my first part of my career for the message. That message is now an urgent, your worship, that's an ethical obligation and a fair enough in some sense, get your act together. Straighten things out. You know, but dont forget who you are. And you know there's this essay. I would highly recommended essay, it's it's brilliant. The only a say. No, I know on this topic is called relations between the eagle in the unconscious. That's Karl you and It's the only thing. I've ever seen that actually solves that addresses this issue. It's like well, of course, that's part of the hero's journey is to be fired up with the messianic spirit yeah, but you're. You know little and stupid

level and so haughty a balanced those while humility is a good start. Well, that's that's that essay it in its deep that bloody! Yes, it is almost a version of the famous churchill quota if you're not a socialist new youth than near her. Yes, you have no heart nor yet and if you're not a concern, if you're, not a conservative in your old age- and you have no uranium- basically something like that and those things need to be balanced. You know some of that is that the particular isolation that you have done in this book, which I think is a wonderful. It's like area of its break, these things down into actual problems, not you know, low resolution, moral claims and the other thing that useful to think about cognitive lee.

It's that no one has any unmapped space in the world. Everything's mapped okay, but they don't know anything. So how did they make the maps while they just paint big chunks red? That is all red? That's all purple! It's like! No! It's not it's detailed right down to the subatomic level yeah, but I've got that covered well, that's only because you haven't tested your stupid idea. Now you did because you went to africa and you went to south america, so you had to become high resolution because you saw the failure of the resolution map, but it's really interesting and then people get real upset when you point to their low resolution image- and you say well, that's low resolution is based on one axiom, other terrified cause underneath that is all that bloody complexity that they thought they d already You know you I'm not hungry. So obviously I know how to deal with poverty on a world level could look at me. I'm not hungry.

So fair enough, you're, not hungry. Why would you even think about it but no on map territory and ideologies, even if the whole of its I the whole culture stuck at them, sciatic level near what were they adolescent while that's right? That's it! That's it! Well! We can't afford it is because we can be coddled, but it's a catastrophe. We currently this terrible. Oppression, we've been hungry, we've been hungry, but we we haven't been hungry. Our whole lives right, like as a culture where we're so well taken care of at this point that it's it's almost impossible to mature out of it without causing the destruction that would cause us to later mature. This is really wonderful. Thank you, someone that you got, EL? Thank you. It's a pleasure at EU airports as to meet you again and how well as well onward, not work. You know, will get this launched, lots, people watch, it, sell lots, book YAP and will see what happens

keep it up. Man.