The hello, everyone I needed to write and read a very carefully controlled to this part cast episode as it deals with particularly tricky and contentious matters. Soap. Please forgive the deviation from spontaneity it's writing and reading necessarily requires the discussion that follows this intro. Is it free flowing, as might be hoped for? If that is some consolation. in two thousand and sixteen I released free videos on youtube com, There is a law being passed at the federal level in canada, bill c sixteen purporting to grant protected status to people with uncertain

so called gender identities, but opinion, constituting an unwarranted intrusion into the socially necessary and fundamentally important domain of free speech. those videos went viral, for reasons still not exactly clear. I believe now the time that the introduction confusion regarding the centralisation and terminology of masculine and feminine identity would produce far more trouble. Then it would cure more specific. Equally, there would produce a psychogenic epidemic among vulnerable young women around the age of puberty, using the onset of increased negative emotion, characteristic of that age and sex. This exact and precisely what has happened, and it's not good, and it has to stop in any case. My objection in these videos and some subsequent interviews most famously, I suppose, with Cathy newman of channel for news

jill rogan multiple times with Helen louis of g q. As well as to books. I rode in recent years and lecture series on genesis brought me to what has been in singly broad public attention that has been agreed adventure with the attendant costs of severe and often exceptionally caustic criticism. I have now talked with at least a hundred people who have also been made in the public targets. Without exception it is struck them to the core, put their careers risk alienated them too often from family and friends, and driven not a few into psychiatric care or words. Everyone mobbed reacts as if they have contracted a potentially fatal illness And the social media environment we now inhabit enables those who are prone to form mobs to do with ease and impunity. This

also has to stop, but who is at fault? Who should stop this. is a hard question. I've been criticized for my own online behaviour, many people, told me that I have been too harsh particular in tone particularly when reading articles about political, cultural issues that have also been typically published. A newspaper Form- and I found myself in substantial trouble as a consequence of twitter. At the moment, the college of psychologists have on tat which is the governing body of such professionals, has seen fit to an investigation into ten or so complaints. That's ten separate investigation, by the way, been levied against me because what I said on that oft pathological snake pit of a platform. Now it is true,

such governing bodies have become appallingly corrupt in recent years on them, legal, legal and psychological fronts. Anyone Anywhere in the world can levy a committee it against me as a psycho for any reason whatsoever, and I have no right to face my accuser and the college can make life very difficult for me on the legal, financial and professional front, as they have done, continue sleep for the last six years, even though they have the option of dismissing such complaints as frivolous and vexatious with they most certainly are, but it is so the case the twitter spend my account quite recently for vote leading their community standards? What They are a ruling which I appealed so far, unsuccessfully

Despite the publicity around my suspension, twitter has yet to respond to my objection. This does not surprise me. Isis The formal reason for this suspension is that I dead named elliot page was the active referring to a person who has decided that they are the sex alternate to their fundamental biological identity by the name given to them at birth and use. Until their so called transition. This is, come a cardinal sin by the standards. The radical gender bending social constructionists, have made more a veritable active expertise by It has also caution me against my twitter use, believing with some real justification that it causes or trouble than good it is contrary to that. I suppose is that I have nearly three meals followers, beer to believe that my tweets have some redemptive utility and the fact.

and I can use twitter to keep an eye on the kurds in the general culture. Learn how the platform works and effect society in a broad sense and follow the activities of the hundreds of so called influencers, whom I met and talked with in the last six or seven years. It's a conundrum, as I also find the platform stressful as the comments often from the anonymous trolls whose specialise in caustic narcissistic integration are almost demonic in their destructive in. Similar conditions have been directed to me, although much less frequently about the tone I use from time to time on you too often, when dealing with an issue that is also publicly controversial. Some, the contentious issues that we are obsessed with in the modern world such pronoun use and the associated blockades of puberty and sir. go mutilations or transformation. Depending on your perspective and There are limitations. Make me

afraid. Angry though motion serve as motivations for writing and public commentary, but their excessive, expression produced the risk of exacerbating the political polarization and toxic social media exchanges that appeared polluting our culture to a dangerous degree, and it's not just people who object to my ideas or even my mere existence who are criticising its people, who buy, I fully support my endeavours, but I have some troubles with the specifics Here's some examples, to high level corporate see sweet dwellers fall into that category, both of whom one My recent so called message see. Eels first Dear Jordan I agree with most of the underlying substance of argument. ensure your approach is as persuasive as it could be. It feels

like a marked fusillade at sea, owes addressed you your fan base rather than message addressed to see owes which might persuade them to change their ways. In that sense, I'm not sure it will move the dial of the debate, as you say, most see you do not have the time for political or philosophical debate nor understand the deep concerns that are dry de I and iii ears g. They are happy was victims of long and philosophers and economists, but- and it is a big, but they are mostly competent people. immersed in the detail of implementing or not is too where d I saw way to get to them is through the details of the flaws in the very cs g taxonomist or the credibility of the griffin authors peddling. This stuff second commentary, dear jordan, when

we first met. I was disoriented by your extension of trust, I knew immediately that I was speaking to a real person. You provide the same experience for your audience. It is a superpower that super, our could be described as a unique combination of insight and vulnerability. Millions of people trust you because they see raw on scripted, emotion from a real person seeking to and without the veil of a persona. Ironically, one of your greatest Is this earnest generosity with quote weakness? I fear the sea or video loses the humble vulnerability from the superpower equation. Myself, hoping the non judgmental jordan petersen would appear. Instead, I got caught net of angry sarcastic judgments, even with the patients that comes with my respect for you

I could not abstract constructive value from the bitter tone. I found it hard if I found it hard cannot imagine other sea would respond positively I recognise the ridiculous irony of judging you for being too judgmental, but that, in essence, is the problem. The reflexive defensive response to judgment is to judge, for example, the men. it fails to contemplate the sea ozma tolerate some noise because we we can act decisively. It also It's the leftist sin of ascribing guilt to an entire group. Your best lectures a genuine dialogues, you're both teacher student, clinician impatient, father and son, you are a fool: sinner, helping us analyze sin. Consequently, audience is open to the call to responsibility because they trust deeply

but you have similarly admonished yourself. My belief is that people trust you, because your judgment is not judge mental most of the time you attack the sin, not the sinner. Be completely off. If I have misunderstood or miss read this, I apologize, these are very thoughtful criticisms, both written by men, who are doing their level best to help me everyone. I am communicating with separate the wheat from the chaff I have been involved in many discussions recently about the tone of the youtube articles. Similar those that generated these comments. Some people equally credit. I believe that the tone of hypothetically righteous outrage that I adopted at least partly

To harness the anger necessary to broach the topics publicly in the first place had a clearly valuable place. Others believed, as did the sea as I cited that I would be more effective If I alienated fewer people well offer, my views recently reading an article I wrote for the uk newspaper the telegraph. I tried something different, responding to feedback I had received, I rode and holly critical piece back off. Oh, judge of the universe directed at the consult company delight which in may of two thousand and twenty two released a globalist utopian missive, as part of a necessary effort to curb economic growth to save the planet. I was very impressed by the deloitte arguments or any similar arguments predicated on the idea that some very real and immediate suffering,

be necessarily imposed from the top down on those who are struggling, say in the developing world. because there is no other way of rectifying the biosphere, in any case, independent of the merits of that argument. I attempted to manifest the much calmer tone less afraid less angry that experiment, it was a genuine attempt to change appeared. To be very successful. I We believe that doing so softened the points I was making in any real sense, and I produce less kicked back from my consult compatriots and from the intended audience who took what I said: with more seriousness. Rather than less errors representative comments taken from a youtube com. Section notable in this case for its positive nature. First, Mr Peterson,

still love the videos you ve done before and rewards them on occasion. But this one has exactly the tone that is appropriate to its content. Second, I really appreciate the change in tone. These subjects can be hard to truly here. Speaking for myself, But I do find it important that it is heard. And this more neutral, slash com, I'd, say factual approach may more digestible. For me, This in turn makes it easier for me to share this information in a more calm, factual manner. Sir, Nothing in the message was lost by stating the facts in a calm tone. Thank you, doctor Petersen, for your effort for practising what you preach for being a good example, live and learn. We hope on the twitter front. Things are more complex. I should point

It is a bit of background that, since I emerged so to speak in the public realm that I have had many good critics, helping me maintain my equilibrium and working with me to improve my capacity to communicate these include family members. I wife tammy into adult children the killer Julian, who are not afraid to tell me what they think. and who provide wise counsel as well as the stellar group of friends and colleagues who are very competent people and who do the best to tell me when they think I'm deviating, as I often do from this, a narrow. These are people who have some serious concerns about the state of modern society and hope I'm doing some good and who would like in so far as they are able to help me do better. That group includes The two people I am talking with on the video to which, missive serves as introduction John. impartial, fine artist, deep religious thinker, public. Intellectual and friend

and great hurwitz author of popular commercial fiction, most daughter, we, the orphan ex series, comic book writer. legal consoled, former student of my Some thirty years ago, at harvard and friend ever since speaking to her wits about everything under the sun during the entire time we have known each other, but in more years that has become more political. I've been working with greg with a group of strategists and public communicators for the democratic party. In the? U s, for more than six years, trying to pull them, into the middle away from the leftist radicals with some success. He has been a very able advocate for the more liberal side of the political spectrum. In this help me immensely in my attempts maintain communication with people who occupy. That side whose worth and concerns I understand. After all, don't the dispossessed require a voice.

he voiced a series of objections to some of my recent tweets, including the particular utterance that result did in my suspension and we spend some acted and contentious time, privately going back and forth about the proper only an utility of my actions. I then asked if he would be willing to do so publicly to serve in part, as devils advocate and in part, a genuine voice of the central left in relief to my attempts to communicate by social media some concerns about doing so. Criticising me, something that is certainly necessary brings with it What sort of risks, including, eliciting precisely that morning, behaviour discussed previously that is so unpleasant and damaging. criticising me publicly- also risks exposing the critic to exactly that I'm kind of criticism can, Mr Herman do a better job while point

The inadequacies of my communicative strategy that I'm doing when engaged in such communication, perhaps not in which case he ends up in the same boat, but I asked him to do and he agreed. there is no way to improve without thinking about improving and that requires forest discussion about potential flaws of approach, tone and content, and I found the back and forth that you will be privy do after this introduction extremely useful. Asked Mr Jonathan powers you to participate. Because he was in miami with gregg, and I recently was listening to our private conversation about such issues around the dinner table and how many wise things to say he acts in what, families more as a mediator and as someone who is assessing the gist and clarifying- and I would like to thank him as well as gregg for that.

What tweets are we interrogating? There are? We essentially or three sets the divorce the process by which the nomination of supreme court justice catana Brown jackson occurred. I was less than impressed by this process, which was initiated in my opinion, as the democrats themselves indicated, with the announcement It was time for a quote black woman to occupy one of the highest judicial, fishes in the land here the relevant tweet from the Democrats. I guess campaign for president president, announced that he planned to appoint a black woman to the supreme court. Now judge can Angie brown jackson has been confirmed to our nation's highest court. He kept his promise to the american people. This was followed up by

jerry from former white house press secretary jan saki, as reported by writers. This was an earlier tweet ouch president, Joe Biden stands by his pledge to nominate a a woman to the: u S, In court whitehouse press secretary gin saki said and then somewhat later, twenty twenty, two or two twenty five from president bindings twitter account I sought a nominee with the strongest credentials, record character and dedication to the rule of law. That's why I'm excited denominate, judge content brown jackson too, on the united states supreme court. To this I responded once again on twitter, twenty twenty two. or to twenty five. No, you didn't referring to buy. You announced public that you would limit the search to a specific grace and sex You eliminated the vast majority of qualified candidates from consideration and

thereby virtually certain technically that you failed to pick the strongest candidate and then I capped at all. With this when the nomination was announced. Well, it's just twenty twenty two to twenty five. Well, she looks like she can play their part. That's what matters intersection reality! Rules. Competence is a ruse. This caused a bit of a fight storm, not least among my democratic confreres, the very people I've been working with to pull the policies of the parts. toward the middle was it appropriate opinions vary, as you will find out? If you have the interest and patients necessary to walk through the discussion subsequent to this introduction. So that's one of three contention: tweets. There were two others that we subjected to interrogation. The first involved of all things

The sports illustrated swimsuit cover girl, you mean new, a plus is mortal featured pro. Currently on that magazines, most coveted spot I regarded her photo shoot, has a ploy of politically correct. Pandering cynicism on the part of sports illustrated marketers as a form of exploiting she brought about by the model herself and by those who used her image and as an extension of the current culture war raging about the definitions of such things as female beauty, and I said but impulsively. That's twitter, My opinions, obliquely known with the following tweet, sorry, not view full and no amount of authoritarian tolerance is going to change that was regarded by some as entirely justified reaction to some blatant manipulation on the part of sports illustrated and by others.

Entirely unwarranted attack on Iraq, herbal young woman, grey, in jonathan, deny debate this issue at length. The third tweet and the message that resulted in my suspension from that. Damnable, but compelling platform involved Elliot former Ellen page, I was unimpressed, let's say given the current psychogenic, dynamic raging in relationship to so called gender identity with pain, decision first to search we alter his or her body with the collusion, of the relevant physicians and second to but the results of that alteration in an extremely public manner, thus potentially in Icing fragile and young people to incautiously seek the same hypothetical cure. This tweet resulted

Remember when pride was a sin, and Ellen page just had her breasts removed by a criminal physician. This may be very popular and unpopular. In any case, it is all this that is the subject of the following youtube discussion. I would ask all of you watching in listening to have impatience, if you will, as the conversation progresses and to remember that Mr Hurwitz and Mr Powell willing, put themselves on the line publicly. To help me learn and help me improve my consequent public presentation. I title the episode with the term apollo, rather than responds to me critics or Heaven forbid apology, because apollonia has a very specific meaning is how the Merriam Webster Dictionary defines the word Appalachia means matter offered an explanation or defence. Apology usually applies to an

russian of regret for a mistake or wrong with implied admission of guilt or fault and or without reference to mitigating or extenuating circumstances. Apollonia implies not admission of guilt. regret, but a desire to make clear the grounds for some course belief or position the most famous logic in history was offered by socrates, when he was condemned to death defending himself he turned the tables on his accusers demonstrating very precisely why he was feared, hated and sentenced to die of a famous missive has rarely if for being penned- and I would very much like and its reading its very short term watching in listening- claimed to have reached socratic heights in my defence, but do hope that the public discussion will

She had some needed light on the manner in which I might conduct myself better in such matters in the future, and perhaps some broader educational and moral significance in closing in relationship to this interval. I want to sincerely thank both jonathan banjo and great courage for having the courage to engage in this conversation. I hope that efforts are understood in the spirit in which they were offered to the show, I'm sitting here today with great her wits and Jonathan past, there are two colleagues of mine in two friends- and these things are very tricky, and so the way you think them through is to take a look at your own behaviour and to.

to rake yourself over the calls in the most fundamental way, and one of the reasons I like to talk to gregg is because he's very, very good at making that kind of fine discrimination and he's a very good advocate. For the sight of the political spectrum that I more alienated from because take dean after me for about six years and Jonathan is just eminently reasonable in these regards, and also quite deep and so great, and I decided that he would interrogate me that's one way of thinking about or help me interrogate myself. That's probably more accurate about How to draw lines in public about contentious things without alienating the people that you're trying to

draw lines in relationship to so badly that it's no longer possible to communicate with them. It's funny because I think one of the issues that I think even for you gregg, is that everybody feels like you have a role to play and I think a lot of this is playing up against this rule, because you are this catalyst for trends nation, you have been the catalyst of transformation and everybody kind of seas that and when they see you straying from that, ro one where or another there wondering what's going on, and I sometimes I think people forget that you're person that also slips and slides, messes up and enjoy twitter, especially especially it s the on twitter. But there is nonetheless a reality about the fact that you do seem to play some kind of rule and end and that, if so, these goods about it and write a trend that

should be flexible and part of it. For me is that the role that you're playing his become too rigid in certain ways endanger yeah and it doesn't match my conception of you and it doesn't match what I think is strategically the best use of your talent inside here one. So we want to wait into the platform issue too because, like if the issue is serious enough, to be worth considering then, maybe it's too serious to say any. thing about on twitter. One of the things I should say about those tweets just just to begin with his I've put out a lot of tweets and then go absolutely nowhere. Thank god and then some of them explode, and it is by no means obvious to me in the least which of the things that I'm saying are going to go off like little bombs, and so that's also a very weird thing about twitter. So if you were exposing yourself to a more robust range of ideas, it would be more obvious to you is number one, so it's predicted

going off in one way. First of all, a second of all you and I had the conversely heavy. It might be that the people who are responding to it are more likely to all come from one side so, but doing so will take it well out you can hear, but let's call a dog whistles, and by that I don't mean the connotation, that it is actually a dog whistle for something that racist or families so that not even such right. You can tune your ear to that all the way around this backdrop, now not perfectly, but your ear is not to two things. the language that you're using and how it translates and in some way it's part of why I'm talking to you is by dint of our relationship in some ways. I think I might be the best point of contact for what everybody to the left of you thinks

yeah, that's true, and so I m right now, like everybody to laughter view, is, does not have a high view of where you are and what you're doing and that's problematic as we ve spent a lot of time, bridge building and also that's not you you're, not a sort of rigid conservative and I dont mean Consumers are rigid, I mean, but you're you're, like a northern elbowed, an outlaw biker, like that's a big party or persona, usually yeah, in your like there's, will aspects of you that are liberal and it's the integration of the two cars so shameful. It is right but right, but you can only someone the parts job that's where I live it's the other thing, it's like it's, not it's not making sense, but also not talking to half of europe Oh well, so sometimes I've gone degree gone with great to washington to to talk to Democrats and I've often asked Democrats that I've talked to who I've talked to win. The left

it was too far and they are usually unable to answer, and I have suggested that it's equity when they go too far when they promote equity and greg, has stepped in several times. During these conversations, when I'm objecting to equity what to say when you're talking about equity, the Democrats who you're talking to don't hear the same thing, because they just hear equality of opportunity which, by the way equity, is definitely not most democratic, and I'm not claiming that Well, yeah that does happen does happens directly. Well, the converse chances of being happening, and so there is this need for translation. Why don't we start with one of the actual tweets? We can start with the white one that was pre dating this okay So before these happen, you and I had a conversation, were- I said, your tweets In my estimation, to radically into impulsively and saying, if you have something important to say about something like say, maybe Islam or like race in america. Right it requires

Little bit more like if you're gonna pick on these, like small topics, when, though complexity you should take more time and do it is in our bad right and we have talked about it. I said to you because you said: look I've been thinking about it forever, and I said how long did you think about these three tweets in your answer was about a second well, that's twitter, right to areas where the place to think and so is out. That's another issue is one of the things that happened. When I got kicked off twitter. I gotta been outraged by all, though I really wasn't. I actually found it be musing, I suppose, especially given the timing. Is it haven't exactly the same day that I joined the daily wire, which was ridiculously comical in some fundamental sense, but my biggest reaction in some sense and of course this also raises the core can. A motive is that I was mostly relief. Think I've been trying in some ways to wash my hands of twitter for three years and then I kept getting sat back in and and I'm not trying to make excuses for that by the way I am

trying to figure it out. My family has asked me to stop using twitter, sometimes or said that it might not be good at night. I was torn for three reasons is that I use twitter to follow a lot of the people that I've that I know like five hundred people kind of see what they're up to I used it, at least to some degree as a topical news source. But, more importantly, and more fundamentally, I believe that, because I have a large social, media presence and I'm very interested in communication. I wanted to learn how all the social media networks work and you actually cannot learn how they work and so what's wrong with them or how to use them properly without

using them and to use them. You have to subject to yourself to the errors that go along with them and so as a diagnostic and gives I've talked to Jonathan height and two and two steven pinker about the path ology of social media networks, and I can't figure out how their pathological, unless I use them, and the problem with that is that if their pathological end you use them, then you get sucked into the path ology and so on. it'll. Just because lots of people wrote me about the tweets and said well, I never used twitter and I don't know why this is a problem and if you are a good person, you just would ignore it completely. It's like yeah, fair enough, like that's a that's a possibility, but it's certainly not obvious. I think anyone on twitter rather found his adept at me included and I have said twitter really did you in doing during the last action cycle. I can't be honoured in any way, and I dont think you know who is what you're doing when you're on their you're talking to troll farms from saint Peter urgent you're talking to algorithms rooms, and I you're talking a troll like you and even

what new deal you also told them when you're engaging with the people, you think you're following they dont. There are not fully in control of why there in there, and so it's like this video game that you're playing and the video game, then your impetuous we engaging in ways that can insulting without her the humility to come out of it and go oh wow. I was often my corner, the internet, and I said this thing in a game circumstance that had did did we're all world declaration, the context of which didn't make sense to me, but mean something else. Let's talk well, that doesn't mean you're wrong. It also well, there's another element of twitter, too. That's peculiar in in a very deep and horrible way. Is that, first of all, I don't remember how many million followers have, but lots, and so are people. Many millions of people who are in the potential database of recipients of my messages, but like one in a thousand of them, is having the worst day that one in one thousand people is.

having and that might be the person whose responding with a comment is there not a trolls from saint pending? How many there you on say or trawls? Well, who knows that's why he did zero. Usually there are playing a game where you're being manipulated constantly by eye and then and then it's the tell the wags. The dog does twitter on its own? If you look at the scale of how many people post the percentage of americans who pose the percentage than of americans were not just talk america, because this is what some of this isn t out, but then the percentage of them who post the most often what's vacant influence like you need to know your engaging? No, no william one of these is the reality its well. That's that's a huge problem because it's a biased sample that looks like a community that trying to end its biased and ways you don't understand, and then it's even worse, because its biased towards it's the narcissists and the cycle paths and the macchiavelli. I end the trolls and hiv farms and then it's even

worse than that, because its buyers to promote the worst of their addresses as fast as possible, and so I need help with that. Like you, ve spent six years tied to a cactus with the worst elements of the left, kicking you in the face for six years, like you, don't need more exposure to the worst of anonymous we all know as general and what it does in the back of my mind like- and this is part of the reason that I am worried about. The situation that were in right now is that I can see the desire for him emerging within me as a consequence of being exposed to this kind of narcissistic caustic element that just run riot on twitter and what happens important with your responses. To my mind is it starts to be discriminating about the others not only has asked liberally sense, but meaning you start to talk about the left as a monolith.

It's like sought a monolith more than when you say, and we should start with justice jack's, because she had one answer that you didn't like and fair enough right, so while we could go through that, so so remember exactly the specifics of the tweet, but I can set up the context. So when the Biden will correct me, if I'm wrong, when the Biden administration move forward with the supreme court justice nomination the way they did it strategically and we have been you- and I have been working with the democrats for a long time at this point. The way they did it strategically was something like it's time for a woman and a black woman on the supreme court, and I thought Jesus you guys who already hunger dry because the right way to do that. Even this, that was your goal, was to say it's time for our really qualified proper candidate on the supreme court and then to move.

With the surgeon and say well look. We found this person and isn't it lovely that she has these great qualifications and also has these other elements of significance, and then she set up for success, and so I thought that was just dismal and ridiculous and I think the way I reacted to it in the tweet. I also think about is statistically because if you eliminate men from consideration than you reduce the pool of of applicants who are qualified by fifty percent and then, if you reduce it by ethnicity, while in this case to the black population, you reduce that fifty percent by another eighty seven percent and so now you're down to five percent six percent of qualified candidates in the probability that you're going to find the most qualified candidates. That pool is its five percent you could, but its very unlikely and so on.

I found that, given the importance of the position, I also found that annoying when I pointed out that this the candidate who had been restricted to you, you said: well, you don't understand that in the previous nominations, there are all sorts of restrictions that were equally tens frequently reacted. So, let's tarp got through just for sat yet when we get to that issue, going element where I said to you: you're, not an expert in waste in america, and its evident from the way you're talking about us and you should approach with more humility, especially as pertains to buy in america- and I also said you're, not an expert in the Supreme court's ruling by law. Yeah and you said, but I'm an export, its selection criteria, lousy rents and, I said fine. So instead of angry, like tweet warrior jordan, you can do an assessment of what his pistol

about the selection process. But there is also this strategic issue because I was also annoyed. I thought well Jesus guys even by the lights of your own moon. Let's say you screwed up here, because it is strategically foolish you the hunger candidate out to dry right at the beginning that was part of the euro die. Why did you not speak out when the last three candidates going through on a short list from multiple conservative think tanks ends operation like everybody, knows the short short list, its being considered by tromp. That's cut the field immensely, but one short, this is a dialogue or political, and what is your opinion based on my politics? The other is literally just gender and right, yeah, ok, so I would argue in some regard. So let's go to that. Then it gender and break

reagan said he wanted to sexuality, wanted to say that sounder day, o connor, he said he needs to point a woman, so nobody's like home sobbing about that rights are for balance of the course that I dont think that he should have done it. I dont like the bite and did it. I think he should have done it the way you did it, and I was I was outraged stricken quickly and I was frustrated morally. So you have a list of people who have a certain ideological orientation and you're saying that Wine, to my mind, the thing is fine. The only thing why it's different, it's different. Do you think it's different worse? I think intersectionality is worse. I think that to Jordan's point I think it's worse, because it undermines the person themself it saying you know what I'm saying: ok you're there, because you have a certain political opinion, in the other saying you're there, because you look a certain way, not saying over certain certain political saying, saying: you're on a short list of approved people in a certain way, that's acceptable to people and

however, even if there is going to have a real hard time with the notion that that short list should be composed in any way of of of characteristics like gender and race. Ok, so let me just As I understand it was so I will I will. I will read it to you and all the first supreme court justices did it. There were all white and there were black people who were here, and so it's not that it's not like that It does not justify it. But what I'm saying is that everything is complicated so you're an expert on selection, which you are then no problem. Do that, selection and lambasted began to everybody else also and put her, four edition tradition of supreme court justices, who have been chosen due to different cultural and political ties, and the reason for it is in the selection of rather than who we got, who were three justices hoo, who prevaricated at best under oath, about rosy weighed and when I say prevaricate I mean they fooled republican senators, unless that's can kabuki theater and susan collar

like they were very careful and cautious around that or they are somebody who happens to be black and a woman, they set it up front. I dont like that who is a spectacular, candidate look ass if he had it. For me, this has almost nothing to do in this situation with with her marriage as a candidate, because it's possible and perhaps even likely, that she's a highly credible candidate, but It's also because I was willing once we had this discussion. I thought well and give you that I can give you that our aid, so fine, the previous candidates, were also selected from an improper, restricted short. Those Jonathan point is relevant because well that was part of address aerial political process and may be still within the game. Will That aside for now, but I was thinking- ok, oh, oh, oh, give you

I'll, give you that I'll give you that she was she was qualified and that previous nominees were subject to an equally biased selection mechanism. When she was subject to that question, what is a woman? I thought that says that question sucks. I know it was a gotcha question and she could have said- and I'm not also expecting her to be perfect under those circumstances. Right, because that's a lot to ask, she could have said. Don't ask me that question. That's an annoying question you're just trying do you have me in here and it's inappropriate under the circumstances, and I would have thought no problem, I'm not a biologist. First about that really bad answer its first of all, because it admits that the fundamental issue here is biological and isn't here's to me that the people who were on the left, who are interested in gender fluidity et cetera, want an answer, but it's also It also annoyed me because it's like wait a second here we were most be celebrating.

Because you're, a woman now also because you're black, but certainly because you're, a woman and now we're being asked to not agree that there's such a thing woman it's like, and then I thought well that not only was that annoying for the reasons already laid out, but it was going because I thought well now I have to. I have to sacrifice the principle of non contradiction. Have I'm being called upon to accept two opposing things? Similarly, ITALY that are not commensurate, and I'm just not willing to do that, and so the answer is very very many ways and I do feel bad for her, because I know what it's like to be put on the spot in an interview with questions like but I'm not a biologist. It's like Jesus, it's really yeah! No, it's a terrible answer. I'm not going to defend something that I agree with but what I will say- and I thought it was a terrible answer and there's also a way to answer it as a liberal, that's way more reasonable to say of Where's here is generally how we define it. You can also see I'm not answering because it's a game, but you could

I say here is generally how we think of it, but there's klein felderson, there's variation in those different stuff and gender and biology you can you can see something that fluid and still not fluid. That way, but like the hall and still the common sense value added the majority of americans can understand. There's a bigger part of this. Item. It is your drill down on your expertise, which is selection process, but you're not rolling down on that generally about the whole supreme court in history. Just on and additionally you're missing the bigger picture and the bigger picture is this: this is a woman who, by conservative standards by the can buy the standards that we all care about meritocracy, toughness she's, a woman, a god, should marry twenty five years. She's got kids. She was a he was the head of the cause of all of you just more qualifications dinner conceivable that I can't even remember, and she's then the issue of hunger out to dry to begin with that,

I believe you know my blessing with Cavanaugh right demeaning. Further to that, I can't leave. You are contributing to the demeaning instead of saying. Well, here's this thing, and while she had a bad moment, you sad and you, and I knew what happened. You are often somebody Who exactly what happened, because you send all your emails and theirs idiotic, like equity proposal in physics, grants that was happening. A guy like that, like the rustling of the girl s horse, we arms like it with some awful thing in your morning, and you wrote a tweet about her dead, said. Yea D, I well, I guess she looks the port what I said and I know we're not work and I know you're, not racist, I know more racist than the next northern albert, and that's that's right, there's, I think so I just want to. I just want to interject a little bit because I think that there's a bigger picture, as I think Jordan's coming from at least for sure that I'm coming from, which is

I'm definitely more on the right side and world things. I've noticed is that, for example, this people get away with calling other people racist, nonstop. All the time in the media on twitter on. You you can call someone racist a try and there are absolutely no consequences. No discussion, there's no conversation in so now. I just want to point out that this conversation is quite particular because join. gives out a few tweets that are a little off color that are maybe two partisan or whatever, and then everything explodes and the left is like what he's a nazi. We thought he's a nazi. We saw all right. Thank you got there either thankful that you made those tweets because their fight everything is consolidating their image that you're a racist, but I but I knew I think, it's important to say that that was that's also part of the discussion. part of the discussion is, I know, no you're, not racist. I know that

and what I said to you was. If I didn't know you- and I read that tweet not a big call, everybody ready! I I don't know that I'm not racist. I I do know, is I'm trying very hard not to be, and so here's what I'm mean sorry you're right, I mean you're, not racist in the knee jerk way that it gets applying initiative is a virtue but I mean you're not raises the way that people quickly dismiss. You is racist. Yeah everybody has to look at ways in which we have biases and where that has to do with. I would say in Canada that for me, that's probably be more acute on the native american native canadian, first nations people occasion front because, where I grew up, the fundamental racial divide was not black versus white. That's not the canadian divide. The canadian divide is either french versus english or its native versus versus european, and so when I go to reservations, let's say when I

interact with the natives, who I've been coming to no more over the last years. I can. with me, the freighted perceptual lens of my upbringing and And I'm always on the lookout to see how that might be effectively. Yes- and and that's what I told them that I'm not that's right, I'm a dance because above I mean I mean the foolish race learn their trial resources. What I say is you, don't have that and you don't understand it with waste in america and yet you blithely trotted in and you did so in a way that was denigrating that, if I didn't know you, I would think was a We shall slower and right that someone is outlined to think that about people like. Let's that there is a liberal whose kind of interesting new dresses, but is it tweed punk right, like a tweet, punk, leprechaun, interesting idea as flashes of brilliance like you're sort of looking

I am going hard times long periods. Abril esther through flash is mostly but occasionally a sustained burst, and so and you're interested, but you don't agree and the next move that person does is come up to canada and make it totally tone. Deaf slight against the residents, schools in a knowing way, I would say- you coming into america with your life of knowledge and into an expressed interest in waste anymore, car, in choosing to make a comment by tweet about waste, America was ill advised it is missing anything that sounds like dog whistles to reasonable people, including me. If I didn't know you to go, that's a slur. And she's deserving of yours back fair enough jonathan, do anything to close off with no, I think I mean I think it. The feeling.

get right. Now I don't know gregg. I feel like we're really falling into a lot of detail into a lot of weeds in terms of the this particular thing. I think my my perception is that there is a bigger issue like there's a bigger issue, which is the manner in which for you as someone who is definitely more on the left and you really with Jordan and how, in this in his public kind of coming out, you have felt like until then he was able to. Speak both sides and to speak reasonably to both sides, and, although it may be, I think, your and probably more conservative than you are. But I felt like he's honest he he hid. He takes it seriously and like the channel foreign of you, for me was is like that image of him undermining the way people perceive them and and and laughing and being charming and being flax, and actually kind of bringing which is hard to do on twitter. That's right and right- and

something I think the major perception have is that with these tweets and some of the messaging that has been happening recently, if you like don't have access to that. George anymore, you can defend jordan to yours. Where did you used to be a that's right? That's beautiful thing is this important agenda in that, and that's exactly right in the dream is a lot about that because part of it for me, if you're not supposed to be the you're not supposed to be speaking in wooden language, you're not supposed to be so

Well, let's go to the dream than here. So this is a strange thing to do in the middle of the conversation, but it did make sense like one of the things I did learn as a clinician and certainly in my own marriage and in my own life. That often, if you are fortunate during a time of query and crisis, let's say indeterminate see now and then you can get a dream and if you're lucky, the dream will reveal things to you that are part of the answer to that problem. And that's not that surprising, because dream is a form of thought and the dream thought is trying to solve problems, and so it just turned out that when Greg came here, he had a dream which is very comical dream.

So John. Can the nine gregg sat down and talk about the stream, the bed and we thought we might discuss it in this in this form? One of the things I learned from yoke- and I believe that this is true- is that dreams are the voice of nature in the deepest tents and they don't lie now. You may not be able figure out what they mean, because the dream is trying to figure out what things me, and so you have to translate the dream. Just like you have to translate the work of literature, but the dream at least has that sense of directive, truth in the deepest sense and and and you can really rely on it, so you want to lay out to dry, abed and then Jonathan, you had some This isn't it's like like for a liberal Have your dream analyzed by Jordan, peterson on the world wide web for the daily wire could be a worse idea, how good david Rowe this should be just fantastic and not at all like self adoring. At the same time,

this is the setup up going talk about my dream because you're not enough trouble already. So ok, so I up in the dream, having left a place, that was an idyllic bucharest, new englanders college right in the countryside, green ellie slopes, and I already what I'd already left there, but I live there in the doorway to dream humanist tradition in some real. That's right that batteries in europe. Their unlike allotment lama, Emily student and unwanted, the thing is, I think, of that. liberal is liberal arts education, which is the most like. It's the end, I thought of hills, Dale right. It's also conservative, because its little sea and little out and that's what they look like- that it's the union of the two traditions in the highest sense that it's a cloister you can explore ideas and from part This is its like, so the best of us conservativism

best of liberalism when they lived together and now you men pose a huge aunt bessie, so so that everyone loves yeah right and so I'm in a forest. And it's it's dark and nightmarish and its stark and it's like dead branches, the cask long shadow, and I'm walking through it. Well, that's a great image because the dead branch is the dead. Wood did should bernard and its casting a long shadows. So that ties into the whole shadow issue and it is dead branches to cast the longest shadows and grip at you when you're walking through the forest, and so that's a great image. That's right! and so I d love to take credit for years, a writer, unlike yachts, wonderful, but it has nothing to do with me, but so then I arrive at this place and it's so interesting and it's like. So this is all offensive, but we're gonna, just we're gonna talk it through. oh you're there and you're like hillbilly, you you're more hillbilly. You then you are, I should say it's a different gradation of hillbilly

you're still dressed in euro, like you know like Boston, celtics, leprechaun outfit, but it's like. I don't like it when you reduce albert billions, american hillbillies. I think that's it anywhere our own by raising the now with his experience as the dream, either way bellies you're going to be so it's like its denigrating but like I want to make sure like known tail, Billy's should be harmed in making this dream cause. Like I'll hang out with hillbillies all day so anyways, but like bad and its degenerous, and- and you had a great point on this and you're there and everyone urine like like overalls. Soon. It's like twitter for all It was so funny and everyone's all around, and it's very like participatory and everyone's kind of parting around when I was

I got. There said there was a deliverance element in order to. Let me have liked us to have sex yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, well, hillbilly catastrophe happening, there is a will. There is a hillbilly there's, a german peter said, like hillbilly yeah, it's going on that so like a festival, but people playing stuff like a cello made out a like thoughts and strings and like everything's homemade. It was sad and his you said it's like well that's hard to make than you think you could try and make a a out of a fork and strange, but it's a mess you're, walking around in your your inquisitive self, like we're. Your hands are behind your back in your browser, furrowed in your like yeah you're, paying attention well when you're paying attention while, but it was performative. and I was mad at you when I was there and then you said something that I don't remember, but it was denigrating me in a way that it was I wish I could remember, but you basically said something that was like trying to call forth in me-

imposter syndrome that I'm acting in ways that I don't belong and I should be embarrassed and that I'm embarrassing myself and I should watch it show as an accusation of something like hypocrisy, something like the imposter I'm not I'm not as good or where. I think that I am, and I was really mad at you and I was mad at you on two fronts. Actually I was dream mad at him. The whole next day I like that part the guy just showed up on, like you were those where you're like yeah. Well, I was, I was dream mad at him like the whole day. It still hasn't fully worn off because you are horrible, but so is mad at you for two things. One of them is when I got there. I was like yea jordan's here. This is going to be fun. There's going to be an adventure,

the first rule of our friendship. Always we always have fun, and we always laugh unless things are released and then we can at least make fun of it in an way way. That makes it somewhat tolerable like, if is a whole thing like we ve, been through plenty on both sides that have an awful but we're still funny. Now it still is, I'm I'm turning its new, but we're still funny. Yes, that's true, have fun you're lookin for cairo, hissing, ragged, sadly thunder the stronger is, if I dont know what to say ya like locked in Now, I think, is a mental swains is furthest said, but so you're not it wasn't like you should be safe. That's all! that's my relationship with you: you're, not like a sea safe space for right anyway, but your fun and you venture, and you always always have my best intentions in mind. Mama fighting and even more arguing, and you did It- and I was like that's not you,

I knew it right away and by way of those also you're worried about a daddy's level and in the daily wire thing, also bring set up, because people have been wondering you know what's gonna happen is this. Is this? Is this a tilt into something outside? the domain that we ve been talking about and there's a moral hazard dissociate myself he'll be lesbian, so, like a transcendent, we combat in black supreme court. Just this life a twenty five year old, like big boned, one, and and like a trans person quit twitter and joined the daily wire. It's like, ok, good, Jordan, this'll, be this the bridge, building aspects of my life easier and to explain why you're not like a captured and and let me also join in rome on thoughtful captured language right that his work its way through a particular egos some and by the way daily wire. I don't have that by us. Like I'm, you know. I've met

and later also concerned about that on the daily way. Right, I mean part of the reason that I am wearing when these losses is does they won't ask gape from a narrow, partisan. This is a conversation we could have in good faith with ban and andrew clave in like we can. it could be here. This isn't just talking buying their back, obviously now behind their backs. Well, yes, since they're hungarian they'll run right as well as this relates to the dream so back to drink. I was really mad at you and I knew and will it was an embody dream cousin in real time, I knew that it was also about this and I only weird and sorrow embodied in that which was cool sites like ok, it is now- and I knew I am coming to have this conversation- and I dont want to have this conversation really I do want. I need to have a conversation, but I don't know I really want to visit I'd prefer. I prefer talking you privately. You think that

might be more good that comes from this young x. It exposes me to a lot which I'm not fearful. But I want to make sure that it's worth it right in. Also, I'm not I'm not I'm not certain that this isn't performative in the same way that uncritical view after the when you got kicked off twitter and everything turned into like the big kardashians of twitter, who have you no big, prefrontal cortex like I don't like that whole game, but so part of what happened was I was so I needed. The dream was the same thing. And I also knew when you came at me for the impostor syndrome that it hit me and it hurt the way that insult hurts. Like it, shuttered me like in boxing when you take a full blow, but then it wasn't real like it couldn't touch I felt it in full and then I went are you're wrong. You're, not you! I don't have that I might have it plenty of other things- plenty of other ways. I might be a fool or or be as yet undeceived about the ways that I think I

More than I do, but it's not this and that's why you do not my best interests in mind if you ve done that you ve done that pointing on things that I don't know and fine you're right leg- let's The doubt whatsoever. That was that was this. The fear in the dream is that criticise you not acting in good, say that's right. So in amongst the hillbillies parting away and you're you're doing you're you're focus attentive cells, but as a more you I'm right. one that its performative I'm looking out of. Being because I I look where you look often right and to some extent vice versa, something like really of interest, you and your photos. So I got some popped in my mind about that. You know when I was a kid.

I hung around with the more delinquent guys, not that there is any shortage of them in fairview and there was a reason for that mean. First of all, I was intellectual and I was small and because I was younger in my class. I also had a harder time on the athletic front, and so there was a bit of compensation in that. I would say to hang around with the tough kids that tough misbehaving, kids and I could do that- I mean it it. It had it's costs, but I could do that and they all turned a lot of alternatives as well as a very small town, and so there might be a part of me too, that has a proclivity to want to appeal more to that rough and tumble working class rough edge of the world, which I also think it is a plus, I think you have that to somebody real in one of these we ve been talking about is like this. The fact that I swear to much I'm a crime- right and in certain circumstances, I'm it's very much part of my parliaments and I dont think kids. I dont think its is useful,

updated when appropriate. I think right well. I also think that it's been good for you. In many many senses to also have had some appeal to the military types and the police guys in the canary doesn't help hope of swearing are no they're not just learn best up, but no, no, what I'm so yeah divinely pet! You can easily pan you can eat. It can easily be a part of that. That's a pandering and an inappropriate, pandering and yeah, and I was so there was a very the dream- is putting forward as as inappropriately performative in relationship to the dream, I guarantee women. This is uniform like like fork, chow, and so I'm looking at it and then have this transition time, like georgia, like the hillbilly incest for cello. It's just not that fascinating what am I doing here. We should be attention is something else. I usually pay attention what you bet pay attention to. illuminates, meaning

or discussion point or a fruitful. This agreement- and I just realized this- is there's no wife here. This is kind of dad who Why not? And that's through that insist, incestuous motif, you know so one of the things you talked about. He has a whole symbolic chapter this about the place where only like major, with light Jonathan usual drum. I think one of the things that I that I've been thinking about how to understand that if we think about right left as it as a basic category that way that you talk about it, which is conservative and then more liberal and more open the the conservative. They tend to be the way that we dehumanize, we could say, or the monster that we perceive conservative, tends to have something like a camera monster things that dont go together. The idea of something which is strange, which is unrecognizable

thing, which is fluid and mixed and a mixture of cat. That's what they see as the matter within the sea. As the market, with the project of a monster and, interestingly enough, let's let's say that from the left side, the monsters, the opposite is something that's too close and the hillbilly has become mythological. In american culture. The images of deliverance is like a left wing fan, hills have eyes or movie so so you have this idea of first, while you have the added something: that's two local, something that is incestuous and therefore is to close you know, and the end is to their identity. Is so local that it almost becomes idiosyncratic because it so long ass, it is only come stay and deformed as an example and in real time in dream and that's what I mean that it was embody dream. I thought that's how I think, when I'm seeing the tweets, which is not that it's a moral judgment on you, but you ve now surrounded yourself in

I love, whiteness, linear, oblivious, to how you're engaging with the world and the manner in which are doing so, and your helpless against even the own self can pledges of self control that you made to yourself in your engagement with the world, while you're simultaneously lecturing about ethics in christ around the world, and I thought that's that's wrong. It's an end when I try to involve them all at least the sub optimal yes, well, I'm right, she's, there's a lot. You do right all the time and, let's like we, I dont like complementing you all I know it's like, there's like at some point what you have been through in certain ways in facing the absolute worst elements of the far left and by, I dont mean liberals and I dont mean Democrats and I dont. We moderates has been.

Harrowingly, we horrible its being it's like if its being a horror movie as written by kafka, it's been awful and a large part of why I've been able to be undeceived about the problems that are happening on. My side is in large part of the closeness of my relationship with you, because I saw it in ways that were undeniable and you- and I are too close for me to dismiss you if you say something that I believe, is dumb. If you say something that is misinterpreted. If you say something in a way that doesn't make sense- and we might have to argue about for two weeks to see where it comes down to I I can't I can't dismiss you for it. Parliament, as I took that right, early you're, like a year almost like the original council culture icon lucky, you right in spain has been applied.

but you ve been battered and you ve dealt with a lot of it. We better than anybody, thinks your nose in the mainstream media and on the left. Now that said, you also asked for a lot because, by dint of the fact that you're an ascending character, who, as a religious aspect to some people, has a moral aspect and has a profess oral and professional aspect, and so it's and to say that, while we're talking about this, this isn't like me coming in and beating you like a pin yadda that you need to be perfect, but it saying with every You are, and with the capacity that you have just speaking to train and a way to more people. You have a moral responsibility to take more care with your words, so that you're not thoughtlessly denigrating whole swaths of people who need to at least hear from you or hear a perspective that you have to offer, well, that is immensely helpful. The same way that I say with a lot of modern democrats who, I think are incredible: moral people. Well the failure to wrangle messaging apparatuses. It can be a moral failure also so one

the problems that I have is trying, while trying to establish a balanced view. I have two dimensional problem. I would say it's. First of all, as an academic, the people who are troublesome on the professional front to me are not the radical right, because the radical left is destroying the educational system and the radical right isn't there at all. So that puts me in a particularly weird position professionally and is unidimensional position, but then I would also say that the people who have come after me, most effectively at most continuously vote, is based, of that on the right. That's never really been very effective. It's been from the left and well. I know as well that its doesnt hazarding that in that it's not as easy for me to be balanced in my and then there is one other dimension to that, too, is that

see the radical left as penitent in any real sense, and this actually extends out into the liberal community. More broadly, because in many ways the entire world has decided that nazis were. That was just not acceptable, but we have not decided that about. And so we still have places the united states where their statutes to lead, and then people still, where shoe she go a very short and trumpet their alliance even the communist ideas, not working class labour socialism, and so there is a lack of penitence on the left that really that really disturbs me, and so I have the nexus of those three things. That's the left's issue with the confederate flag. I'm not advocating that so I dont want say that these things are the same they're not the same, but there's a lot of ways that the very symbols move both ways, but it is not only. On the one hand it inadequate better ass two hundred years ago, on the other hand, it's like the hunt, million people that we're dead because of communism naughty.

forty years ago, but but it's america's original sin There's no avonlea! I mean the trucker protest was a great example where there was one confederates the truck approach you immediately, but never mind can we learn from their own time? Is flagging out o Brien every single one, and no one noticed that no one has any those local. We here's the hammer- and this includes the ladys is like Canada is different and that's also want things. We talk about all the time. It's it's like. Canada has different ascended forces that are problematic and I'm not comparing and I was what made it even worse in canada. It's like we're. Even it wasn't confederates leg, that's actually not a canadian issue So not in any fundamental sense and so and I do see any sign of our good kind. The last of penitence Jesus took the social psychologists, the years to admit that there was such a thing his left wing military and his know, and still it's a it's a narrow part of the field like oops. Well, maybe it's there too yeah. You think really, you think and and

it's part and parcel of the problem of the left and it is not an easy we're low draw boundary and its where yes, but indeed ways the right warning about the, but they dropped hungary between them and the nazis and the asked has not driven drawn out between them and the communists, and I know it's hard or two. I understand that its harder. because I think it is, I do think it is. I think it's hard or because the thing about the communists is that they promised universal benevolence and then in the nazis, never did not said no, this is for the area right, and so there is a and send a promise in communism. That's not me. I was over and sovereignty of consumers come in the big in the front door. We talked about this last night like the the, so what has gone wrong when thereof. The rise is a big guy with a club who comes in and smashes stuff, and it's like its definable. You know what it is

liberals when it goes wrong, is like a swarm of paper. Cutting mosquitoes that like shred you to death and those are the two variant- and if you're one one kind of makes sense and if you're of a mob of paper cut shredding mosquitoes that they think that's their only chance and justification to go up against the other one. And of course we don't want either of those things and so of course devolve that way. But it doesn't matter that, if they're promising universal benevolence, if that's not what's happening, it doesn't matter, doesn't make it harder. We also have to understand too, that whatever's bedeviling our country, our our our earth, our civilization. If we reduce it to the partisan, then we let it win, because this network of ideas that is tearing us apart, has it has its tendrils up everywhere and if we can say well, it's only on the left and well then it wins it, It can hide in that and if nothing only on the right winds as well, and when you are off what I think of as your calling you're not being transformative,

you're being, is all of a sudden you're like feeding these kind of red right, walking, talking points, moving out and language that doesn't sound like you and I in the opposition in a way. That is that I think is only like it makes. You see me in small and petty in bali liking and also that's the problem with going after. Seeing residual tumbled out observance during talked about reactors. There's all these have different things. The diet very different reactions saw three earlier, also. What it does is that it eliminates your ability to differentiate the others and so, when you don't ranting about them along the union, the more extensive social. Let like it's a rare and it's not you. It's like its captured language when you're were- and it's like, ok sure I can do and equal ran about the worst aspect of the four this right and how their racist does have any bearing on the consumers in my community, my friends who were in the military, my friends were born again christians, I mean I can keep granting a whole list of the

worst of the right, but it's making them a monolith and you purely individual into a monolithic thing and you don't differentiate them and you don't want people doing that with you and we don't want people doing. That. Would you because we need you to decide now. So you called out your called out in the dream by my hillbilly self for your failings, but you don't take that personally and then I feel it and then I go dismiss it. So I'm not taking you personally and then that's really sad for me. Okay, so then there's the next part of the dream where next part of the dream is you're, going off with your licentious hillbilly orgy and people are like pairing off rooms and I get offered like a hillbilly woman, There is amazing, so had this moment like a first reaction where I'm like I'm married You know my wife and I can go to a backroom with hillbilly but evidence I did have a second thought rose like also

hell, billy women are not very attractive, so I'm like, I was slightly relief and slightly terrifying. So like it wasn't just please we act as urgently as possible, but none as I was like no clear morally, and it also was clear that it was. It was in a way that was scary, would be the non funny part to say it like wanna tangle at sea, weren't, gonna mate with what was incestuous address, and there is no doubt that minimum team of creative union so so that you are offered the temptation of creative union with what was too close and insist he was born and send you just know. Yes, right derivatives eyes dancing line as I'm here in this amazing company that I've been in for last week. Linda, interesting right well, because you were concerned about coming down here, because while this is part and parcel, at least in some sense of the day, where operation going, and also by think you forgot to mention that the dream in the dream- the these were, you were gonna mademoiselle gets so that that's ok but yeah them

I drawn on that. So then I'm in a house that is it's a bear house and the closest thing that it could remind me of was you know. I went to albania at one point and there's these mansions that were built by like russian oligarchs to escape, and then they ran out of money and they're. These big platform concrete, like shells of mansions but they're, never they're. Never given life is very he's, got that european like graveyard of something that would be granted from gear that depend on the ruins of the tower of babel well and also like their weirdly bureaucrat they're, trying to be majestic, but they also could be like the central bureaucrats for ducking. Right like they have is weird like anyways and so it's a house like that- and it's on till and it's concrete and there's water- that's flooding the bottom of the house and everyone's going off to have sex in the various rooms that are also.

Happens on a ship and the ship. That's also extremely relevant right does that's that's an image of the decades of civilization. As the house is collapsing, the waters are rising and in response everyone's, going off to their own rooms to have sex with incestuous partners and that's the polarization rights of going to great image and another wars, and we call that Monday night. Yes exactly, and and then I am also aware that its rights are grounded arc. Does its on till, like when a boat comes up yet always think about like the image when Beowulf boat comes back right? That's the big it comes in crooked and some whereof that so then there's it's a bit of a below so went on until because its own, until because its crooked the house is crooked. The house's falling the house's feelings in work. It's like this are gonna wise right right. We need arts to rise generally when there's a flood this morning are rising because all you people are

haven't hillbilly sacks, but I'm not in the dream. Wait a minute as yours and told them to find a way concurring. That really does like yeah yeah it'll be like here. Veronica's bosh painting would be like the hillbilly arc orgy out in the margin: yeah, ok, ok, soon, and then basically, then that's a state of our civilization yeah, it's its dismal, Then you come after me and you're yelling after me, it's more deprecation and its basically like you should doubt yourselves. You don't belong. You can stand it in for the left, in that sense and in the twitter persona that I've been, opting, let's say at least in the right, weeds and others as well, and at first I had like. I sat at some point I had a moment of like like. I don't like taking a criticism you take criticisms from each other there, always with a baseline of risk

and admiration and usually the harsher. They are the more comes from their first of all, but so I took it like that first and then I was like this is wrong and I'm really being an you're wrong in this whole seems wrong. I was confident in that, but you weren't, and that was weird waving, and generally we don't that's, not a place. We wind up who so then I went away and outside it resort of an idyllic setting and then Tammy was there who and Tammy said to me and tell me, and I it's kind of interesting tammy and I realized my weight for those of you ask me who might not know that an end and great and tat. We know each other very well and have for decades and carries being in the conversations in many times when we ve been mutually working old, familiar problems of different intensity and personal problems, and all of that so- and I dont know exactly what image Tammy plays for you. I know that when you were first thinking about getting married to delete, Tammy, definitely pushed on you and said

if I remember correctly and said this is like get out there. Is Tammy what Tammy weights and she's all quiet near like? Oh, what a meek, submissive, kind, woman and she just like lots your legs off with the machete. That's like completely dessert And she had some great causal she's, a good feminine judge. Well, she's all embody cheese. The embody feminine in that you said that a while ago you said Tammy so feminine right took me a long time is my wife is too and dad had very different meaning than how I was raised, but she's powerful from her femininity in full, and so when she says that floods and termini

There have of affection it and funding joking relationship. It's like it's always serious, but when Tammy lies you yeah, which is, but if she puts you it's worth paying attention to, and she look she's put up with him for how long ride so there's fifty years yeah. Is it really fifty I've known her since she was that the right of the right to do so and tat means had Tammy had mean one her drink champion? I like dream allies, sometimes in a way which kind of way and so Tammy was there, and she said to me

Don't worry she said in our next book. It was another twelve rules for life book, we're writing and devoting a chapter to you. I was like that's really weird right, because you know hillbilly jordan, who just like was hurling. You know nod corncobs at me on my way out of the cricket arc didn't seem too inclined to want to venerate me, but it was. She was clear that that was something's happening and then she said you every easily you're, the moon, god and ice, and my first ria add an immediate and read initial reaction of humility that was genuine where I was like are not a god like, even in the dream, And- and I said what you mean- is I'm god like in the way that the moon s and she said yes, your job is to shine a light on the waters. Now patio, you had something some things to say about that. What is it there's a few things that I would I would have to say that first off,

think and realizing how much this dream is. Probably a reflection of a lot of the reactions that I have also had from people from all sides. Different conservative different is the sense in which people felt like we are we're in this in a moment of crisis, and they felt like one of the things you things been able to do is to start building an arc right to start build, something which would not be completely given into the forces of of of the destabilization in chaos that are happening. I couldn't may be kind of gathering together and carriers through towards something better, and so the fact that you have this floods, we felt the flood coming and that's something I think everybody kind of feels the floodwaters rising, and so the fact that you see that this arc now isn't gonna fly anymore bait and that their youngest got this all a guard, bureaucrat bureaucracy, element that tilted and

its incomplete and unfinished, and so it's contaminated by bureaucratic power and- and there is also which is also the idea of the bureaucracy- is also something that is like a there right wing monster read something that is structured and and and hierarchical, but its not working Take this adds dad the design I usually did. The liberals often have a claim more right up. There Conservatives have a claim on this lady erratic, early, abstract, notion of beauty and creating the conditions under which beauty can flourish, but generally the liberals are the ones who create the yeah very often, and so, and so there So then you move out and I think what is happening in these convergence. It's it's not exactly fair, as we talk talking about earlier, is that without that liberal openness, you can't get access to that transcend realm from which beauty comes, but we, as we discussed earlier, the great artists are actually

union, though, is the liberal and the conservatives I get, let's make a land, they have that you have that but this, but they alight with discipline. And so then their proper place of beauty is proper is. Is that place you were out at the beginning of the dream, which is that ideally- balance of conservative limit lower in the humanities, artistic tradition right for reasons that so we can discuss at a separate time, because I think that the liberal arts education foundation really were talking about this last night is the is the is the need solution for the insanity of twitter, but not openness per se, which is the liberal temperamental virtue isn't sufficient to produce creative achievement. It has to allied with action, but just like I'm high conscientious, which helps a ton.

You're way, higher openness than you've been acting, and so part of that, I think, is like you almost first of all you, you died twice like you're, putting a coleman like it's like we're running out of eastern european countries, for you to go, die and die in right, so I've been half kidding, ha yeah. It was right right and it was all horrible ron and Tammy I mean it was awful yeah what happened, and so there's reason for you to come out now and be unwilling or not willing and capable of seeing a new found level of vulnerability. It's like you, hacks through healing crisis, and you have a baby skin on and you're talking into the comforts of one side more, let's say like work, Being greeted, in example, is a risk. I mean when I, when I've gone to washington, to talk to some of the people they're starting to talk more to republicans, because I've actually talked more to democrats in the last five years,

begins. Even the republicans, I'm talking to say, don't get corrupted by the republicans, because then you just another republican and it's not like there, a diamond doesn't then we need great republican leaders, That's not whatever I'm doing whatever that may be is just can be a reduction of that. Because, while one of the things I have noticed, is that when I'm talking to conservative types, I have to tread much less carefully, which is weird right, because the liberals, hypothetically, are the open types. But when I'm talking to Democrats, I almost always feel, and so do they that we're both walking from a moral minefield all the time. So I will sauce ticket is exhausting inoperative. our way don't underestimate the extent of openness and minefield walking for me in my wife to be able to get to a point that I'm surround old people.

a whole weekend, I'm not talking my community, my community in family, conservative, liberal war square. It is not relevant in a public way of new voices. to get to a table with, like James orne douglas heavily and stephen black one. That's. That's all you don't just rolling the conservative town into greeted with that, there's a lot of coming from. Where, though, is that the conservatives are coming out away from that of the liberals, raided the liberals that they're gonna duper docking concerns both ways. Both the worst I've gotten, the worst anti semitism and deprecation and dehumanization has been from both from the right when I've appeared with right. Do the irish no doubt well, and I should say that enlargement is Tom joke and so for me, it's like. I take errors in the back. Coming to the conversation, the conversation sometimes are difficult and I take errors in

back from them, sometimes going back taking errors in the faces, I'm going in and logic who cares? I'm not saying you where what is known as its hard on people's hard. But what I'm saying is like it's not it's hard to establish a group of competent, intelligent ethical people who don't think like you. It is hard, but it still contingent on you to do it again. It might be hard in certain ways that are specific to web roles, which a gap because I see all the time, but there is also different ways that it's hard with conservatives yemen. The problem too, do you get tired One of the reasons I think that it's been it's a relief to me to talk to people when it's not a minefield with every bloody word rice, because it's just its take so much effort to negotiate that. I know that that I know that it still has to be negotiated because the alternative is conflict and war. So, but

if the temptation is there right, there's minefields a lot, though, like I could hit a lot of notes wrong with this group. Not now with like you and I have a relationship now, it's like, we understand it and it's not and and blackwood two and or two right, but there's I could hit a note wrong and find my yeah in in a bunch of weird. I wonder you tell that happens. Does it immediately descends into the political? That's right right then all of a sudden and then was not exactly a great regard for like. Oh, this is dead language coming out in those dead branches. That casts a shadow. Yes, that's its whole. It all the way around. I'm you ve had a uniquely horrible. Uniquely you ve had a very difficult run in ways that are unique to you that I'm not true

draw comparisons to, but others a moral hazard didn't because it's hard to keep economy in the face of that best russian, when it doesnt quit it doesn't stop right and somewhat hoard. Is that, as I hand, lawsuits now bring longest, that's like tens, a lot it is and when its, when it's, when you're in the jaws of of a kind of kafka, ask crushing of your like the bureaucratic state having you in its teeth with this power of the sea behind it is dizzying and terrifying, and resentment inducing an outrageous? Yes, yes, it is a vote like a murderous respond fantasy as a response to keep it up and see what

happened, so here's the transnational girl of yours. What you keep talking to an imperfectly is fine and that's what we're talking about. But what you are talking to is, if you're travelling around literally the world, to talk about Jesus and to talk about the rules for governing one's life and navigating complex change, then you should be, I believe, more open hearing when there are things to me, there are obvious missteps. I should only as open as possible. While obviously does that's all. That is also why we are having the conversation just do it when that requires humility and part of what was hard for me with the pride comment you made fur elliot pay, was. It was like your humble and all the ways that matter to me, but, like you have pride, it's like that's the call call elliot page dom is a more suitable insult from you. It's like you want to run around cheese and people of pride. That's what depends on whether they prayed themselves on the cover of fashion

is, he not well. You ve created yourself around plenty to eat, but it wasn't to entice adolescent girls to sterilised themselves well and is that the question is: is that in fact what she was doing, but none the less well, you see on the cover, if that wouldn't do that and when she got one point, six million instagram likes, and so I and maybe we could let's talk about that seriously like ok I cannot believe as a clinician and as a psychological observer, that one of the consequences of that parading. Wasn't that at least one young woman decided to sterilize herself now I think it was likely a lot more than one, but but I I can't be certain that it was even one, but it's one point: six million lights, and we know that these Incidents of gender disorient on the young adolescents, woman front has exploded, and I knew

Well, when all this pronoun nonsense emerged in canada, that was what was to happen, because I knew the literature on psychogenic epidemics and I can't see that elliot page didn't flip the switch from victim to perpetrator with that and then stephen blackwood, the conservative tat. We ve been talking about present frost and he called me on that, like you did in some sense the other ninety said you bullying her. You shouldn't have gone after her. That's a disproportionate use force, and I thought that was a good argument. I thought that was a good argument like I want to arrive at this after the swarms yet well finish, the dream too! So, ok, just ok, some back to the moon image! So Jonathan you the comment about they they do spent in the move out of the game. I argued that you'd image, so that so so I think it's important, stand in a way. The way that I see it is that

You have you feel like in the dream. You are confirmed the to be what you are here, which is the day something which down the left, the moon and in terms of thinking is. Definitely the left side? Even in iconography, the sun will always be down the right hand of crisis. we'll be on the left. The sun is the is kind, the origin and the moon. Is there? soon by the moon, is also that with ships changes. The more you raised change the moon is fixing and waiting the moon, the feminine erect, and so that, its feminist ass, you I got, it has to do with fluidity and change and transformation. So it's come Please tell me you're, saying you're a valid voice for that, and that's that's. That's great. That's a great thing to have happen at the end of that dream, because you're called out by the loudest voice of the hillbilly right. That's the way the dream lays itself out and then it's my wife me being the loudest voices, the hillbilly right in your

and god only knows to what degree that's true period, it's my wife who says no you're shining the proper light. It's a transcendent light breakthroughs. That's a very we're part of the dream that your ally, in some sense with the moon god to what the god part of that is the transcendent parties. The part that sheds light shines from above and you're shedding light on the water, and I think I do think that's what you're doing and I think you're doing it extremely well. I mean you're very judicious and careful in year articulation of the positions of the left. You know and you dont get randy about it, pretty much. Never and you you, you don't get pride full above the two and I that's partly because it seems a bloody difficult and because you actually didn't want to do it. I think your whole. The home and its, the tammy, validates that it's amazing that I have such a self congratulatory drink like that worked out very well. For me, because if we did the one that shows that I'm like embedded in cripple that like and we did

that what no one always something no no, but it is something to really take heart from because the dream, the dream is very positively inclined towards what you're doing, and it's not that it gets their easily right. It goes through the whole dead, wood, corruption western civilization, ass, jewess hillbilly thing I say, is that in the dream, when I was joking saying I had like a rare but immediate moment of humility, I was positioned in the dream with humility and it's like it's not that you spoke, feeling tone of the dream did like you know. You have dreams where there has been, because if you, if in the emu. It is elevated your status to moon god, let's say by a narcissistic acceptance. You can be absolutely bloody sure that would have been accompanied by catastrophe.

I rose before a fall and rain, and we talked about the great tens or washington line too well smith that I think about a lot with you where he said like right wing europe, your greatest like the double right right, and so I've been thinking about that a lot and thinking part of our conversation now with your transformation through literal death, it's like, where are you going to be now and part of me- is like Henry the fourth's over like it's it's time for henry the fifth right. Some of those things have to be, behind in certain ways some of the world- this is a view. Well, maybe twitter is one of the few no bigger and is very convenient for me, so my response to the twitter ban wasn't of moral outrage. In fact, it was first of all of us, stunned, amusement that it happened. On the same day that I announced my my partnership with,

daily. Why? I just can't believe that was so utterly ridiculous, because one of the reasons I felt that we do those shaded with data were for four months and my family, and I have that out because we didn't do not do this lightly and we paid attention to everyone. in a word in the contract, and so we were on board with it and but one of the reasons for that was well. You know I might run a foul of one of these major social media networks and then well then, what did what happens? If youtube stops me now we have backups and all that, but you get the point and then it was so proud. Fishes insanely propitious that the same day I put set us up twitter said: well, you don't get to talk to people anymore. It's propitious it's me. It's union, synchronous city. For me that one is really done enough of the light on. I think its vital thing at the dream is pretty. I think the dream is pretty clear. I think anybody whose hoo hoo hoo can thank. You can understand that it is somewhat the reflection of your reaction to do something to join the said and also the idea that I think you are always do jordan

as an ally in a way that you tried navigate between both sides constantly to be careful, and then you ve always the jordan has been that for you, you had to defend him many times to the left, because you felt that you could trust semi had your back, you you're you're, both but the talk across the lines and now you're like oil. This is does it have any more like this is brings it to his yeah there's a thread he's moving too much into the and into this side, and so and so they You are being kind of affirmed, as is it's ok for me to be on the left, like yazzi Jordan, going there as I go. No, I can't let myself get pull them I have to be able to pull out a smart and it's like don't do a bunch of stuff they are found. miss in in its minutiae, not as its totality people's criticism that you're like a dumb persons idea of a smart person. trial with stupid, well oiled, mind that so much in some sense, because right now there's a

Positive sign minos when he's doing with your role and in for me, it's like in your area of expertise like a kind of boils down to what we're talking with the supreme court justices I so I dont get to say off hand things even if I'm irritated on twitter, what could we you can't. You know like that. The thing is, I think, a mean. The image that I have in my mind is: let's say from the outset. You said something like we're going to create a new university. We create something and then her what he was excited, and so now here comes petersen academy. Yeah, like this is possible. Yeah drones can be able to pull the best people from everywhere and going to going to be able to to create a university where people are able to say the truth and talk. Cross lines in their bid is excited, and it's like, I am a conservative guy, I'm like one guy, but I, like, I feel petersen academies way more important than like that. With these these kinds of partisan, that's a more Artisan things, even though I know that I am clearly on one side,

It's like that's what I mean when I said at the beginning that this seems to have something to do with you. Oh yeah yeah, that's some money really gave ruin was talking to us the other night and he went after great. Pretty pretty nicely,

It was a very friendly way, but Rubin, who is more partisan and more provocative and plays that role like shapiro does, for example, and although they both play more than that role, but they certainly play that role. Rubens objection to greg's criticism was that, while there is a time and a place to be caustic and to be critical and to draw distinct lines- and he didn't particularly feel sorry for the swimsuit model- who we haven't talked about that much yet or for elliot page, because he felt that it was. It was the right time and place to point out that that wasn't appropriate and there's a lot of noise and and and trouble associated with that. But that in itself doesn't mean that it's wrong, and so the job that he should do being true to himself is to be

that it visor and is like a general yeah. He should hold that position for you. He should make me on that at that table yeah, that's. Why he's their rise, and he should also advise you in that way, so that you dont tell too far and so every You said everything like. I actually completely agree with a lot of what he said about well, that's why you're willing to use wit, humor too, because I don't like you, cut that out of your life. Dave either they stand up so so we can figure that out, even if we disagree on a bunch of stuff and you usually what I tend to disagree with a bunch of stuff by the way is what people say on twitter more than who they are. which arise o roon say: does it's like really law and but Luxor dave's doing what he should do, which is say to you like think about all the stuff. But I see you is having a different role and its past Firstly, what jonathan saying? How do you remember how you embody the positive role

this is a wheelchair traffic rights whom you say. Well, it's really good offered the wheat and that's the best thing, but then you think well yeah, but you have to kind of point out where the chassis is too but you're sick feeling is that its way more important to say here is that we then too, denigrate the chasse. I do think that night, but I do think also a lot of this stuff was also about the quit the problem with a particular like I do think that was part of it, especially the swim to model issue where it's like who's. This girl, like we don't. I don't know who she is and then all of a sudden she becomes the the whirlwind and and like we saw that happen The other side, like think of the coming kids in that kind of stuff enough, were completely outrage as watching the media like destroy this young man, and whether it is in a way doesn't matter whether it's it's realer unreal or whatever, but ultimately when, so if there was a feeling of that was like this girl, like we don't know what she is and all of a sudden, she becomes

yeah. I had less sympathy. We are with the earlier page, because I also think that with something way more. There was something bigger because she is a celebrity and he is a sober whatever like elite is a celebrity seventy and There was something more, but so defensive model thing for me was deliberately ok ok instrument owners, or rather thing- and this is what this is where this is my proposition- that I want to put forth- that I'm fairly, confident, but I'm willing to have it like shredded act to death by you. I think that you can have your discerning great father tone you can wear that more in areas where you have expertise when you bring that two black supreme court justice or Israel you're out of your lane and your lying. There should be as a as a scientist and again in an interlocutor. but if you got so there's one of my favorite jordan moments was, I put them on and I always put them on a chain with a bunch of people were

thinkers and, like almost always ends, disastrously. No, that's not true It seems that it sometimes does. But there's one we're going back and forth whose dad and whose doubt and whose export there's just like mirror game that everyone plays from both sides. Were your expert wrong. What you're studies wrong when you read the data roaming, it just becomes. It's exhausting mirrored conversation that Jordan are always trying to shatter, but at one point jordan said about a year testing and some like all who said that enjoy was one of his like you must have been in an airport with Tammy losing your bike is, Jordan was like I did. I said I in studying this deal for thirty five years, I've published two hundred peer reviewed things I beg like. You know: I've created entire, accompanied it folks he's on the testing. I've got the data every way. I've looked at it in any conceivable way, and basically it is topic on which use legitimately one of the world's leading experts on it and you are angry and it was like man earned off

I don't care what your tone is. I don't care that you phrase it saw you are like dad You were wise. This gives us into another problem, do which is if we all have to deal with global issues in some sense right, especially now, because we're increasingly globalized and the globe is tilting in the way that that structure in your dream was tilting. But the problem is that we are all too ignorant to do. that, and so one of the things I learned when I worked on this, you in committee, for example, which was the committee that produced a report on sustainable development for better or for worse. We like to think that was maybe a better document. I mean we, the people, I worked with income, but because we were involved, but it still angle? It was part of the process, the tangled everybody up into this globalist, utopian catastrophe that we're in the moment, so so in any way, one of the things I learned is well. No one knows how to do this. You know how do we sustainable development dislike well oh yeah, that's a good aim, but the devil,

it's the details, and so you too in address issues like this. You have to risk leaping out your bailiwick, and so there has to be. daring, that's associated with that. But then the danger is well. What do you know enough about the details in the answers for seventeen know, it's like. What's the answer to everything is more responsibility and more humility, and so the you move off your biases, like cocaine, escrow, a couple fitness cause you decided to become a conservative like this, oh yeah, oh god, you on cocaine and hookers. What is it responsibility and humility right? What's the further, you are off your base, the more you have to be caught. is the one. I get a lot of comments like that on twitter, you know, or on on youtube. It's like by now you're an expert in this now I got rid of the hundred elements like like it's like is law. It's like really that's what you're gonna wait into now and not one by one, how many liberals not

liberals is done because a lot of the muslims in the world who we need a lot right now are the moderates. in the muslim world anyone you know maybe naughty, maybe not even the moderates, you you need the people who are willing to talk. Well. One of the guys I talked to was a leader who I am, who I am going to talk to again in the uk in the aftermath of this mess, the wicked so He's he's a young leader of the more traditional muslims and so I wouldn't call them moderate yeah. But what was so cool because he I had. We went back and forth a lot before we talked and I didn't talk to them a couple of times, because I was sick Then some bullying came out of that directed to me and then I thought. Well, if that's going to be the situation, I'm not going to talk at all, but then I thought well, those are his followers and forget it, and then he got the fight with Douglas murray, which I wasn't very happy, but so I thought about scrap and the wolf,

and so once again, a fight with. That was why not just the last person now want to go to find bad idea. So but I didn't go ahead with the conversation and it was time to awkward and continues to begin with, but what was so cool the conversations not we had a real conversation, but was so cool. Was that, like a lot of people watched it and most then we're muslim and a lot of the more traditional the comments were so glad we're having a conversation, and so it's probably not moderates exactly that implies the wrong word. Let me would withdraw the word yet I mean is that moderates who have an interest in free ideas in denmark, like the most useful people for me right now to get a handle on how to fix america are. Are muslims who I mean so they're, not hysterical when things are happening right, muslims, it's it's! It's not a monolith. It's like latinos right, like the big joke. Was there

one, the latin acts vote and trump onwards. You no vote, and it's like this notion of latino or monolith is in like do you have mexican friends and family talk to them, then talk to their parents then talk to their grandparents like it's a no brainer. If you're, twitter, that's what you know community is complicated and there's all sorts of different variations. If your cue been in flood right anyway, we now have two belabour with muslims? There's a core sat of traditional about yeah, there's more the major archie in some of these cultures, then we would think from the outside. There's a very Howard role for women apply and so in the negotiation muslim muslim women a lot that their use to standing up within negotiating with strong man as one more but also strong men in a positive way. And that means there really strong women. And it's it's like it's incredible. level of insight to be like, oh so, you're trying to negotiate the balance between freedoms and law on rights. Right now we ve been doing that for a while, but- and so that's part of it

where there is a there, is an exposure into more muslim thinkers of different stripes. I think that's very important. Okay, so I'm going to say in my own defense in some sense that I was willing to do this badly because, like what do, I know lamb. I mean, I can't even know about it. Some sense in some real sense because it so complicated and and to delve into it into, the master of the koran. I mean I'm not a master of the bible. For god's sake, you know, and so and then- and so I've had these conversations that this span the islamic spectrum in some sense, because I mark dion Hirsi ali obvious, until I really respect she's, whose parliament's ridable and certainly from one perspective, but like to be completely admire. for her right, starting clarity in intellect in strength. Like a staggering I talked, I thought all the way through the islamic political spectrum, let's say to to

Malaysia who's on the traditional stand and who debated, I am on my daughter's part cap direct and so I've been trying to gap open myself up too wide a numbers are used. Depositors in time didn't. I just want to say one thing is that I think that there I'm going to try to muslims in there. I do its bit to produce there's another messaging and contacts which seems back in which it has something to do with the dream. I think- and it has something to do with the strange fact that. You use inside our daily wire, then you put out a message to muslims in that regard. We ignored that the content of that and everybody understands the airlines organization and keep keep commenting, where's the message to the view and I think, delete yet, but

I give it to you on your weight and Jordan still weight, and so here's the thing that interests you guys can generate their own. Damn mess of you have heard. We don't started storytelling, nope yeah, I mean okay, so for me, this solution is that the solution is what we're doing now. Right, but how much of that has to be done? Posts talk like yes, you do. As you know, what I'm saying is when you say okay, so I did. I did stupidly your humility and willingness to sit here and have this conversation right and be sure take it. I think I can take it. And finally, I know I know, but the willingness to do that. To my mind, is all that is required and I want through the other two tweets? Yes, I do think that I would also Look. There's suggestions that I would have about what type of positive movement you could make on these three four

but all that it is that you can progress boldly and be a fool because the full proceeds them and then accept with humility, that you should have had greater responsibility, and then you make it. I don't think there's any other way of doing it, and now because you're gonna have to form a party whose lives are has been missing and it's been. Oh, it's been a drumbeat of one side that exactly. Why we're having the considerations- and I knew it was this morning with the elliot page Front- and I know- get to that in a minute, because we still have to return a sports illustrated pleasure, you're dying to do that. But, like part of what I said, you was well. Why aren't you going after women who get double the imf? ants and ride your answer to me was well. There are not causing a wholesale industry or whatever to happen as they are full mending a porn revolution that right, estimating sexual behaviour. Now young lady went to you, I told you so fine you want you want to come in in a context that

was we roller ash even against something that is fair and that is problematic and doesn't have new wants him doesn't have lines she's a twenty five year old, one eleven thousand followers the rule is, if you have to, if you billions of views and millions of followers, you don't denigrate. What her body looks like on horse specifically on twitter, which is it's symmetrical warfare and then complain that twitter's mean and retreat from it again. Well, you know it's a funny thing too yeah. The the second part of that, I think is the most relevant part is is the way I handled it made. It looked like the reason I went off. Twitter hypothetically, which I didn't exactly do, was because of the blow back from that, and that wasn't actually the case, but that was definitely a communication pro on my part, I mean it was part of the army, said you'd be eyes while you're, like I'm gonna, be off. I am, then you came in your basic you're like the bad guy in revenge, the nerves. Why

those enters like a big bone girl having her moment at the prom and you're like denigrate and humiliate her and then last yeah. If your point is to sports, illustrated look what you're doing good sports illustrated. You're supposed to celebrate the athletic body, if she wants to be go, be a model for the next rubens good on her right she's having her own moment in the sun right now. And maybe there's some pride in it, but she's twenty five and I promise you she's not more applied for than you are I at twenty five she's, making your own choices around this and trying to navigate the difference between beauty and self esteem. And what would you say, health and athleticism- in her own life. In a way that makes you feel hole into society, that's insane and the responsibility for the society being insane is partially us because we failed to define those terms sufficiently so she's twenty five and confused about that a little bit and take a moment where she feels participated in her own exploitation

where did you haven't? You should definitely that now you could say, even by the lights of the argument that you just laid out, is that that's forgivable it at her age and with that opportunity beckoning, and why would you expect the kind of wisdom, would be able to negotiate that at that age and that still doesn't justify the fact that you went after and that you went after personally by I think, you're on wars ground than when you said it sports illustrated because part of it you could say. Look, let's say you. I am, I think we have appointed ii. It is we are. I think I did not entirely so. When I talk to my daughter about this, for example, she says yeah. I don't feel sorry for this girl because she's, putting forward an image of obesity as positive, and it's not and I know nos, were you outraged by the string of endless heroin sheikh, like white kate, moss models. Ass people that are disorders. Great, did you then bring? Did you have access to twitter that you brought this

three of the un's barrels awhile agreed, but it doesn't matter. You have more responsibility now again brought the fury of the world of the insane world of twitter down on her head and had that directed at you and held you and she's a twenty five year old woman you have you brought me? I don't know what that aid, but then I would say in defence to that instead, and this is also part of what gets tangled up in the liberal conservative bait with regard to the moral high ground part of the argument making is that I was mean to this girl, and I would say I think you can make that case, but I would also say that A line has to be drawn and its difficult to draw a line in actuality without also involving a person who is involved in it. So it's pretty socio, it's pretty easy. First of all, sports illustrated editorial. That's one there, an institution second of all, and by the way she's following around having millions of people now say. No sorry, not beautiful

had I know I know. I don't think that you give to say that it was wrong because, because you feel for this girl, and this is what happens on the left. All the time is that they pointed out. Nation of a moral virtue, and they say. Ok. Thank you heard here is one hears here. It is the very things therefore impossible fizzle, I get it. I get so whiny empathy, liberal arts Let me take it our down tax, You want to draw a line: women's bodies, young women's bodies, it's complicated, Jordan right kind of like, like Islam, athens and race in america. It's complicated topic with lotta heard killings. Have you want to draw a line as clinician and with all of your you're? Starting, like of nations europe, professor at eighteen, different places you can publish a paper anywhere, is the plan. If we bring together the greatest think tank of geniuses, liberal lincoln servants sit down to say what you should do with that. Is to go on twitter and with one second consideration, rife william

somebody cause you're in it up. We move. We know when you said: you'd be off twitter and your answer as well. The article piss me off yeah right right right now, you're, so you can hide behind all the liberal army with albania, but it's like work. Do it properly, then yeah right right now I'll call out well, then we all die your your lack of self control and your inability to control your disdain, for something turning your into a the probable lines right and also like, and then call that liberal empathy weakness good one yet no, no, no, I mean that gives us into it and our discussion, I would say, to some degree, about twitter per se,. Part of what we're laying out, I would say, is twitter is not the place for these discussions and so that The broader question, which is, is twitter a place for it.

Any discussion about anything twitter like so, let's say: let's, let's we let's say you're it. So it's so funny because people pay you so many compliments, and so it's funny when I'd like half during the course of make. Your group pains me so much as it should be like when I beat you mostly, but ok, some you're, one of the great minds of a generation. You have a transformative, intellect you have an ability to frame things in a way that makes people see things through paraffiny. That is altering. We ve talked about the difference between the semantic in the procedural at how you get things in a ritual. You know how to do that. You're occupy if you're on twitter, you are insane. You are dealing with a monster that you don't know, It is clinical curiosity, ok, daughter, Jonathan hate manages to act like a dog he's on facebook. He ceased

where do I know but he's but his primary, do I not making an excuse? His primary domain of concentration is facebook and facebook frauds insanity is not as insane. twitter etc, but also twitter suit. Your temperament, because he's got a more, even temper, Then you bless he does I haven't. We take the most toxic racial need, anything foreign. It's like a video game where you're like we do know who's on. Here. It's a mind, control game. Let me go on there and cause ninety percent of the discourse in the public to be about me. Playing a stupid addiction game in the elite paints thing when it devolved into, and I get this male chain. It's always with jordan does something like what I would call dumb, but you don't call it ill advised or maybe other people think it was great. Nonetheless, something pronounced, let's just say, like all of a sudden, my phone explodes everyone's like with. What's this doing now. It's like george. Moonshine and got the dog pregnant? It's like it. So,

Where is like, go find this guy right, it's faster anyway, everything's like blowing up about this and then I'm on these change, every eye was in some meeting mighty are an awful person. I fundamentally there's no doubt about this, but so I come out of this thing in it's like I'm on this chain with like, like you know, we're gonna gather up to be against freedom of speech, and it's like every thinker imaginable on a chain, and how do we get to isla it's like an all was performative to me and then I'd rather die than take down the tweet news, like Jordan, you're intervene, your game, that's designed by teams of addiction specialists to this new europe and a bunch of ways and to make you angry and outraged and to make you represent views and say things in captured language. That is offensive to the other side to drive polarization.

Further that's the medium yeah guy they re not going to use. It really is hard to say just exactly how dangerous twitter it I mean. One of the things I very much noticed is that on twitter, people regularly say things like initiatives, its constant we'll say things on twitter that are so outrageous. They would never them even once face to face to anyone Their whole life, like you too, that swimsuit model you'd never say that to twenty five, old woman. I only events, I wouldn't say I wasn't saying it to her. I'm saying it to the people who insists that we accept the particular standard of beauty that has nothing to do with beauty. In order to add ties their moral superiority at being told a great, so you did that two hundred forty characters. Well, you think! No! No I do so not end. Is that, like the interpretation of the world know, interpretation the world is, she got blown up.

No, I'm not isn't all that happened, though, because there was wondering how it happened: tat, one of the things that you made a choice with one second delay so there's Well, I don't know he's they only yes. Well, I guess this submersion rise early dry only with it all a reality, only subversive beauty, but it was clearly a marketing decision. Other part, they made a youtube video where they show how they tell her. They choose other cover and obviously everybody, surprise and their filming her being surprised, because they know that this is a marketing ploy to virtue signal to the world or do some do both that it's like look for me. It's like which dog do feed right. You have justice jackson. She said one thing you thought was dumb. You said, just by dint of this conversations, a score of things that I think are dumb. Probably some in

conversation etc and me to write? It's like you can go back and rewind this and write me a manner email the night and to my dog common gas ample. Who has the moons effort, I bring it back up yeah about that yeah yeah, that one will cut that that doesn't need to grant out the daily wire I'd heard after we talked about showing greater discretion. But look part of that is the point, though, because one of the things you said that I thought was valid. As you said, look used to, got a certain amount of the immense to go around the world. Through this conversation with me and parliament, as I was like look, I can't not make jokes. I mean I could if I was better than I am no no shut up a house doing not have to get up ahead esteem and it doesn't mean. I feel that vehemently in some great moral sense, there's tons of you come back constantly and cut down my argument to to size as you should but do what you are saying is there's a certain amount of elements that I need to enter the market place, especially

Gas rationally newly out overhearing crisis, in which you die with these pre, prepared more journalistic thesis that I've done some of, today, where I was doing them before. I read them, and people are less happy about that. In some sense, you know because it's not spontaneous, but I want to think through the argument partly to address some of the issues we are describing, but then, for example, I were I recorded when this week, which was a criticism. Let's say, of the trudeau, though government and there's like hundred criticisms in the article. And it's very it takes very much effort to lay out an argument like that. That is one hundred criticisms and then to face down the government in some real sense, and it's very difficult to do that with the building up some kind of ahead of schedule like as an easier just to lay in bed, and so That's right is stephen king novel, much ease, which is like the best thing that we should

be doing right now. Instead of this. However, I totally and so the standard for me and that's the balance between what urban was saying was was wisely saying right as the point isn't that we cut you down to size and we take a rough edges. Often we moderate That's what people think with moderation euro, that we only got compromises, but we don't want a compromise. We want transcending and transcend. It is, if you think, long enough you get to something. Did the majority of same key or can agree on that in battle and subjugate themselves to to have some? the aim out and that the work that needs to be done. So if you take a miss step because your human and because you doing stuff. That's incredible and anchors you're under an amazing amount of pressure and goes at different times your brains, broken or revved wrong. All that matters is, is the humility which you're doing to address the complexity of it and not do one of those like hostile

prison fake apologies, but like there's, a certain set of things that you could do to say like maybe Do, oh that young woman, an apology I dont know it's something to think about. What is most important. Is that you're willing to hear the fact that you should and entertain? That is a realistic option. You can do it every, a stunning. I scoured my conscience, I would say, on these twin, these tweet frogs in some sense, and I had the same response in some ways that you didn't your dream, which is, I didn't feel guilty, but by the same token, I didn't feel that I have done it optimally rice, and so these things- and maybe that's That'S- you can and you won't apologize to bob if you apologize to your mob, your a yeah right, don't apologize and also apologize to the same, because it's

fluid is like these mosquito that talk. It's like, oh, I will outsource an apology to a bunch of people who I dont know and who are not democratically elected representatives of their party who it's like when people, criticize me for something that I feel like really over the like fifteen people, who were of somewhat, like mind in my community, who I have like trust and relationships with who criticize me way more vehemently than that. I'm going to outsource this to you that I'm supposed to apologize to you. and you re not even oh, yes, and so that's the specific verses, annual why I've been critics than you know, jazz right, that's why you think you're critics right like someone? No idea, like you tell me whenever I try to jam with his like sunshine and unicorn job like Jim, tell me what you think, but just like right. Try what you need matthew like so frightened before us, Jim for advice, but so

right into part of it is that were you can, but there are some since I go. the difference between apology, that's performer than stupid, in something that is bodies Is it the wheat from the chaff? It's also a show of proper respect, which is ok. You talk to muslims, not optimally. You talked about recent american on optimally. You talked about the supreme court justice not optimally, given that you can't just flee the institutions and only talk to people. rejected by the institutions, among whom there is amazing people. You have brought Weinstein you have James James or is not what you mean but closer, ryan's baby, you have incredible people, we also aren't we, I dont think you we wanted decimate only institutions like definitely don't want to go back and reverse the flow. That's when you get into a dangerous. What I would say is a dangerous right wing populism and I'd be talking to the conservatives about that. It's like you cannot come out. while the institutions treatable corrupt certainly one of the dangers of the trump side of the populist right. So what

What would be something like this is me thinking not giving a directive, if you don't go, make some apology and be like I didn't understand, raised in america and I'm sorry and I'll read more toni morrison and fuck yeah, it's like who cares, but what you could do is to take steps to ensure that justice jackson Who, whether you agree with her not and weather, I agree with all the political idiocy that surrounded her, and maybe one dumb answer is received, company? That's around you with the dew measure of respect and admiration that she deserves and deserves to be disagreed with another tenants. That's the thing that for. I think you'd I've been locked. You and I've been trying to do those sorts of things where we have the ability, because in trying to bring respect

Double gamma crowds us into the conservative discussion, and I would say you can say what you want about this because I'd be interested here, but I think we ve had more trouble finding democrats who are willing to do that and we ve been having trouble finding conservatives who will invite them to do that. Certain conservatives on the invite I've known or with the whole tranche of conservatives, their certain red lines. It's very hard to draw people across to that. That's how the nine zero materializes machine. I think that we should not go into that. So shall we close up with the elliot page tweet. I think that we ve how about it all through yeah we have and- and I think that I don't know- more to really add also severely with me. I mean choose your words carefully Yeah she's, your words carefully criminal physician has a bunch of connotations

If europe is it a criminal physician? If somebody gets their face tattooed five hundred times, if they get plants all over the body- there's a million things that allows you to do that's a good question and that that's a whole separate discussion right, because you have not really cause you're picking one out and you're, not looking at the others. Just like you do with justice jackson. Why, look at all them. At the same time, you look at one set, particularly mostly recently, its ever direct. I know I know, but it's also the case that its in that set is causing a tremendous amount of trouble. The first look I knew when the pronoun bill came out. I knew that for every trans kid that was hypothetically safe, we would do a hundred confused. Listen females, because that had already happened on the annex ii a front it was like if you knew the litter.

It was obvious what was going to happen, and so this this is, there is an element of the argument. That's like well, where do adults have the right to draw the line with regard to their own surgical transformation? Perfectly reasonable thing to debate. To what degree can physicians be complicit in this because there is there? Is a hippocratic oath problem, there is just because someone wants a porn implanted in their head, which people have had done doesn't mean. The physician has a moral right to do that, and I know that those lines have to be drawn and the issue with regard to surgical enhancement, say sexual surgical, enhancement also another borderline, but this is. There is a line here. It's like were enticing young people with this fluidity issue. We're enticing young people too, sterilize and mutilate themselves and not just a few a lot and end. The incidents has skyrocket to the point where yesterday, the day before the uk closed its primary gender

information clinic is like, so this is not just an difference in degree. What do you want with thailand? Is it with what with porn its kind corners Estimating right we're right has think it reasonable to say that I shouldn't have gone after the trans minor problem. Because I didn't simpleton, usually go after the porn. Proudly, you goin, who, after a trans minorities, album in a way that made any sense, because you know ok, but I'm sorry, let's say like Elliot page- is not a rapid onset gender just for ya convert who spent too long marlboros school and allay. Maybe This may be. Ok, I don't believe so where we can, and I think you could make a case that that he isn't but he did it when when this was not trendy, he did it when one page

walked away from a lucrative great that people can be unbelievably confused for a very long period of time and the mere fact that it's been a long time that they've been confused doesn't mean that they've thought it through when they make their decision- and I would say it has Being anyone have been public, that's the thing it's ok, we die, everyone knew things through wrong, is public and we're having a whole conversation about the fact that you make mistakes right, but I'm sure enticing adolescent girls to sterilised themselves. But are you enticing when you make that comment about swimsuit model, young men who worship you and think that you're saint like to act like pigs to women? No, but they, I might be encouraging them to not respect the things. I'm saying because I'm being cautious- and I would say even if the familiar with our room with elliot page, ok capital. This is the consequences. yeah I saw tat kids like lock, you had.

you had your psychological problems whenever they might be, and I'm not going to argue about what they are. You rectified them in a very, very dramatic way, and perhaps that was your right, and perhaps it was the right of this. although I am not convinced of either of those states by the way it may be the case, but I'm not convinced of it. But then you made it not only public but triumphantly public finally found my true self and I'm a model for emulation. It's like. I don't think so. Don't think, but if he did- do you believe anyone is trans? I wouldn't like with all the variations in the world in owning. So I know the answer that question someone comes to me and asked me that question. Just people who asked me those questions and the answer is: we need to talk about it for five thousand hours, that's the ants. So in so ok who knows what someone really is? I mean we're. None of us

who we really are, so if it were to leave that that that men can be born in women's bodies. I said I don't believe that statement is. Is In any way, an adequate representation of either the problem said or the solution here is an example, do, you believe that anorexic women who think they're too thin are too thin because they sure think they are. And I really I do not see how that's not analogous. and you know you we wouldn't have for me. This is where a tax of personal yeah, where I have a friend a family member who lesbian working class, max again, really funny really irreverent. Yeah went through derby masters degree two years. If there be yamlang decide a huge fan of yours. Yeah list

see you every night went through transition, the questions that he can. Me with, were how how do I be a better man. So we say it's hard enough to be one gender. Did you one gender? Well half of us our doing it right it's hard enough to be gay, and if you want to switch gender, and to me in this in this individual, I don't want to get into stats in numbers because its the different arguments, and I probably can't keep up this person is the fullest embody met Who he is meant to be added? Somebody like intimately, maybe well much as you could judge any as much as you are for me in my eyes. So what? My opinion estimation is worthwhile. Ok, then switch things into a slightly different, so argument. I- willing to accept that, because I already sergeant acceptance them again, wait a sec theirs.

is contingency. Okay. If in finding your true identity, you violate a cultural norm that so profound that you destabilize the or the entire country, the entire culture. Then maybe you don't have the right to do that. Even if it actualises yourselves, But I don't know right is the manner of twitter right like how many or who are not activists or you engage the regularly with their opinions in the public marketplace of ideas like not a wash right, there's a bit, they have I had a full negotiation with the american public. Yes right, there is no rv belt. There is no martin luther king, like it's a it's a conversation that has happened. I don't even know it's either that that branch of the the algae b d, q plus community should be conceptualizing not matter that's the thing the liberals do immediately. This is another civil rights Bab like yeah,

oh no me right, but when maybe not what I'm saying is is well, maybe, but maybe not gets proven. If somebody can come forth who appropriately negotiates with the culture acceptance in a man, that is moral and by more doesn't blockades and other sir John Louis. Another problem that emerged out. That's very, very complicated. It's like okay! So now the trans community is brought into the realm of normative iii. In some sense, let's say- and so now- and here's where the wheel we'll hit the road so you're a ten year old and you're you're wondering about your gender identity in your sexuality, or maybe your eleven and you're confused, because maybe you're a pretty feminine boy, and maybe your tilted biologically towards being homosexual. And now the conversation is well. Maybe you should be castrated, an answer that

is there maybe that'll happen, and then there is another question it comes up is like so is it so clear that the gay community is better off under the aegis of the trends in Burma than they know under the aegis of the monastery of other heterosexual monogamist? an answer that seems to me to be: not only are they not better off their way way? Worse, which is one more thing, is one more thing, the the closure and violates the ideal and the norm, and you think well, that's necessary because then it includes, but one of the consequences might be and if you extend the ideal so that its to inclusive you blow the ideal so that even worse, for though yeah yeah yeah- and I think that's how I know that in this battle, I do too you too, and I agree with everything that you said- about the complexities and the thing that is the This is the removal of council teachers for

nations everybody's psychologist? Who is not allowed to have these conversations I say: well, how do I know they're not allowed arrives conversations. The answer is because ten lawsuits against me driver having these conversations, however bad, I'm having so so now we are urgently transform children that we are not allowed to talk to gas, and I think that elliot page, aided and abetted that Ok, a band of rightfully so there's two conversations that we're having and it's important to break it down. So one of them is in me saying: do you think anyone's tramp there's not a clear answer you can get for that? I have a different opinion that I believe that there are people that that is their fullest, most embodied self. That's my opinion. You don't need to,

Whereas why might say I dont know, because I have to talk to a great. So then this some talk to them and nine people have all sorts of buggered identities universal. What god only knows which are part of it for me, and then there is the whole issue of how it's moving through the culture which I do not want to defend cause. I don't agree with that, and so I don't want to get pulled in german defence. For me, saying this is say well, that's what you liberals do all the time you bring it in you normalize it and you pull it and then decimate what the normans I'm saying. All I'm saying is advantages to do bringing in the margins into the centre to the degree you can manage. What I'm saying is. Is it has? That is a conversation that has gone too fast given twitter on the pace of conversation like If you're blowing up Dave chapelle where right endanger powers,

especially for that comedy performance. Did you listen to it and think he's anti trans, or are you actually clue? I was never hesitate to have Dave chappelle at my house with my transgender godson at the table and think it would be anything he's like the most soulful gesture of the court and you can't you can't cut down the court jester because they're the source of wisdom, saying things that aren't allowed to be safe and you don't get to cut the line in front of everybody else. To do with either but part of that also like with your issue, will who is democratically electing that leadership to criticise, have well, no one. It's like I was what anybody thinks about anything. So that's why saying I don't want to wear and have an argument with you about the entire movement of trains, culture and all the ways that that's being mismanaged, because Werner and on a lot of yeah. But I'm saying if there is an absolute version of it, then again landing here from outer space, and you get to pick your team of experts that this is something you want to discuss as a world we most famous psychologist in the world.

while there is part of the moral of the story is, and this- and this might be, the fundamental issue is twitter is not I have a discussion about when you said I didn't think, maybe because we we do want a russian, yet religion rap on one thing in and then I want to wrap up, ok and so how you did. It was imprecise because it was like everyone was confused about If you want a real solution in some ways, I think any resolution has to involve both instead of just like rushing in some voting. Yes, who would be about really into in conversation like this one for you to have is, if you anne elliot age reset in another. Have someone in the uk? Ok can talk and you're willing to say you know what it's like. If I take you at your word of what it feels like to be dropped in the wrong body, here is kind of what happened and er? What are your concerns? Well, that's what I did with Rubin on the issue of gay parent. I try to miss. opportunity to do the thing that you are in regards best suited to do what?

say: okay! Well, where is your line and where's my line and here's a bunch of concern, and you have concern too, if a bunch of kids, if there's a wave of rapid onset gender, this for you and a whole bunch of kids are having. Come on we're conversions that are irreversible for the ready you dont want them stock in the wrong body. What's the about? Where do you think the balance is pulling out from the details of the different ways in different messages that have come up? well. I think that one of the things that greg is expressing- and I think that they are actually you would be surprised to know that he's not just expressing it from the left like there's also, I know conservative right wing people that have expressed some just a concern about role, and that is something that you have decide. Also what your role is, because the way in which many of us proceed you a role which is able to raise to be raised up above the fray of politics without being afraid of getting it politics, is able to raise up above the frail politics and is able to kind of

it's over and disarm each side to a certain extent, is the manner in which you have people don't realize is, but the man who manner to which you have de radicalized people that we're moving in a frightening way towards the right and the manner in which you have pulled people who thought that the people who are going also in the left- and they didn't know where they were. You were able to kind of tell them look. This is not what you think you can you can think certain ways and it doesn't doesn't even able to to really act as that strange pivot, and so so Is it in a way it there's a lot of weight on you? It's very heavy But I think that maybe that is what you're seeing it's, not as heavy as doing it wrong yet, but maybe that's what you're, seeing as you're just seeing this call of people saying look if you fall into into the

did we're gonna lose that which we love the most about jordan and so yeah to say be attentive. Is everything out of the kind you know what the left doesn't realise and the means, let's say the neck, the part of society that doesn't understand or judges, jordan in way that are unfair rather than fair. So negative judgment is the amount of work he's john pulling p out in criticising the rhymes, like that's been a huge role right and if you're on this side of the several like he's. Creating all right, he's, participating, positive masculinity and enforce monogamy that doesn't have the meaning that anybody thinks that it has, but there's hope on, casts worry speaking to the all right in a manner that is, there is another evil believe critical and offering a different path out, and you had one person who wrote you

a letter. Last time we were there that I dont think you ve talked about publicly to high school. scores were literally was gonna, be a high icicles ardor, who said I was gonna, go shoot up my eyes, and I listened to and I didn't shoot up my high school and I thought and got help and was inappropriate hands at that point, and I thought that's a that's like a that's a piece of scrap like that, the importance of that thing that happened- com- it's like so literally there now are a number of families and other community whose kids warrant motor as a result of that, and so

if there are certain things people are worried about, you always say if you, if you write, if you're afraid of weak man, I'm sorry if you're afraid of strong manage to be terrified of what weak men can accomplish, and so that's the part of it. And so that's why these these small, seemingly small corruptions in the facade, where it's like you're, not being gentlemanly you're? Not being this knit pity in the face of so much of what you're doing, but it it's zone on the details matter, details matter. That's why Elliot page in the swimsuit model matter. That's rice doesn't arduous details, that's right and you getting. That right is important because the more than people on the right who have said hang on a minute. I was going all right. I don't want to, all right. I won't go far eyes and part of that story, petersen and people on the left who said

I don't want to go far left, I'm I'm liberal! I'm still going to stay liberal, but there's a whole bunch about him. That pulled me out and move me forward towards transcendent values, responsibility and right responsibility more than the ability that was humility rise and was going to unity that well that's so challenging. With this conversation, its rights route, responsible humility on both reports on all of our colleagues, is to engage in. The discussion faith and see if we can figure out how to do this moving forward, Jonathan's been insufferable but good job on that front. Alright, thank you, sir thanks thanks greg. It's definitely a tribute I think. In the end, it is a tribute to you that you're

and willing to do. I I greatly appreciate yeah. Well, I'm more terrified of the alternative than of the conversation, and that's definitely the case. So all right. Thank you all who were watching and listening and appreciate the time and attention to the daily wire crew. That's also much appreciated. Anko, that's rap! Gentlemen.