288. Arabs vs Jews? Maybe Not | Ambassador Ron Dermer | The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast Transcripts

The. Low everyone, I'm very privileged. I would say and happy today to be speaking with ambassador ronald dermot I've been investigating the background and the significance of the abraham accords, which are a peace initiative signed a few years ago, aim dab, stabilizing and bringing prosperity and security and opportunity to the middle east, and I became aware of these accords somewhat late in some sense, given what appears to be their signatures

and they looked to me like the most noteworthy move towards something approximating peace in the Middle east that might have occurred in the last. Certainly, since the second world war passed since the first war, naturally saying something in such a fractious world, where so much of the conflict has been centered in that area, as it has been, many thousands of years, so I'm doing some background investigation into the accords, trying to find out their strengths and weaknesses, trying to separate the wheat from the chaff and give credit where credit is due, and I talk to the american ambassador to Israel a while back who was signally important in bringing these about, and now I'm reversing that by speaking ronald derma and are unable to share that with you. So you can make up your own mind in so far as that's possible start with a brief pile of ambassador

and then we'll move to a discussion of the abraham accords in their details and in their context in and some of the associated moves on the political and strategic front that have been that were undertaken in is your term so ass, a plan for this conversation and so welcome aboard ronald dormer. An american born is really political consultant. Slash. Diplomats as the israeli ambassador to the EU s from two thousand and thirteen to two thousand and twenty one in two thousand and four termer, and now insurance key co, authored the best selling the case for mark or see the power of freedom to were come tyranny and terror, which has been translated into ten languages. He served is Israel's economic envoy to the u s from two thousand and five to two thousand and eight and then for four years as

in your adviser to former israeli pm's, Benjamin Netanyahu for four years from two thousand and thirteen to two thousand and twenty one. Mr dormer was israeli ambassador to who s as Netanyahu's top adviser. He worked closely his us counterparts on securing long term military assistance and missile defense funding for Israel Move the american embassy to Jerusalem. Attaining? U s! Recognition of israeli Aren't you over the golan heights the maximum pressure campaign against around and achieving. As I mentioned, the breakthrough, abraham accords, which normally Israel relation with several nations. Mr Turner is currently a non resident, distinguished fellow at I am essay. The jewish institute for national security of america he's co host

the podcast diplomatically incorrect and has assured me that he is in fact, diplomatically incorrect. A partner at exigent capital, a boutique, invest, firm in jerusalem and serves on the board of net spark a leading israeli internet filtering technology company. So welcome to my youtube, javelin podcast and doesn't termer and I'm pleased. You're here and willing to talk to me. I'd like you to take over the conversation here and introduce the audience who was watching and listening to the abraham words and your understanding of their nature insignificance and the process by which they came to be it's a pleasure to be with you, jordan, and I'm also thrilled to be here, because there is a slight chance did that my children will actually watch this, so they can be I audience as well, because they won't listen to me around the dinner table, but they are big fans of yours, so I'm looking forward to them actually listening to their father for a change, so the abrahamic,

ports. If we're trying to understand the abraham accords, which happened in the summer of twenty twenty three interesting because Israel had its first peace around with each of the nineteen seventy nine. So we waited for thirty years is or was established and nineteen forty eight. It was three decades before we had our first peace agreement with Egypt, which was different a breakthrough- and I think she Israel is not only the military equation regarding israelites and its neighbours, but had a huge impact on israel strategic position in the region. Then we had to wait. Another fifteen years And ninety ninety four, when we had a peace between Israel and Jordan and between the second and the third, We had to wait over a quarter century, twenty six years until twenty twenty on august thirteenth, twenty twenty there was a phone call, between prime minister Netanyahu, president trump,

a hundred benzene. Who then was the crown prince of the it's the united arab emirates and today is the ruler of the united arab emirates, and that was a breakthrough. Well, only had two way about twenty five days for the next break through to happen, which happening we september with a call with the king of buck reign, the prime minister and the president, and then you had the abraham accords, which were formerly signed on september, fifteenth twenty twenty. So we had who, immediately after those accords were signed. Two more countries, sudan and morocco- increase the number of four countries for arab countries that had done. Peace or normalization agreements with Israel and what is striking is how attention is paid to the fact that in the first seventy two years of Israel's history, we have two peace agreements with third countries, in a four five month period in twenty twenty, you had four agreements Now, how did that happen now

there's a lot of reasons why this is dismiss by lot people around the world because it actually, I think, breaks a paradigm that This is for many. Many decades is also maybe we'll give political credit to well that they don't want to give political credit to, but in understanding what changed in region and what enabled ultimately, the abraham cords, and by here the Abraham corps, is specifically the surfacing of is relations with our arab partners, particularly in the gulf. If you want to understand my view, daybreak words, you really have to go back about twenty years. I'll. Take you back to two I listened to. You may remember, I dont know if you were following the middle east in those days, but in May two thousand to the saudis put forward what was called the. Arab peace initiative. Two thousand and two now a lot of people thought that was a breakthrough for the region. I did it. I actually thought that that was a conjure up.

the sense that a few months earlier about eight or nine months earlier on september, eleventh, two thousand, and one Nineteen hijackers had had flown planes into A building the world trade center head down the plane in pennsylvania and fifteen of those nineteen hijackers, we're salaries and they responsible for the murder of nearly three thousand americans. So they face enormous pressure on them to do something and if you know a little bit about the history of saudi arabia. there was a bomb that the ruling family in saudi arabia, the settled family made with a white hub family, which is why hobbies and part of that day, that they made enabled the wild bees not only to control the education system within saudi arabia, but also to promote a particularly villiers and brain of Islam all over the world through the mass that they had thought that that was the I feel that the saudis made

and nine eleven was a product of that, not because the saudis directly we're in the eight or directly ordered it, because the saudi regime had actually enable this infrastructure of radical islam to develop, and ultimately it blew up on September eleven, two thousand- and one now think about this issue- sure, if you're saudi arabia, how how much praise For you have on you to do something so about eight months after those september, eleventh attacks. They called in the rapporteur from the new york times. A com is Tom Friedman. I believe who went to react, and he met with one of the senior sally leaders and he opened the desk for and pulled out a piece and all of a sudden, the saudis in the past, Look imagination went from being terror masters to peacemakers, but the real question, Jordan, is this: if would have Ass the leaders of saudi arabia in two thousand and two if you would have asked it

who could wave a magic wand, and the arab israeli conflict. and the israeli palestinian conflict, which are not the same conflict which will get into bed you can wave a magic wand and end those conflict? Would you from two thousand to, in my view, was now they had no desire to do what. I think the conflict served their purposes. It help divert. from a lot of bad things that were happening in the kingdom I think a lot of the british in the french and the american diplomats fell for the nonsense that the centre of all the problems, and maladies of the middle east is the israeli palestinian conflict, so they had no strategic interest in solving the conflict period. Full stop. now, what's fast for ten years, not to two thousand twenty. Let's talk about two thirds twelve, maybe even a little bit beforehand, but around two thousand twelve, if you would have Ass the leaders of saudi arabia.

If they could waved their magic wand. Would they end the israeli air conflict? Would they and the israeli palestinian conflict the so then was yes now what changed in mad decade? I'll tell you what didn't change. they didn't translate heard soul? Who is the the vision? We have modern zionism, they didn't translate. His jewish state is famous spoken to arabic and you didn't see a wave of zionism spread across the sands of arabia. What changed Was a fundamental shift in their under they not only in saudi Arabia but throughout the gulf of what their interests are, and this was the result of several factors that came together to change, their approach to Israel and to many other issues, even internal issues we can get to, but certainly to Israel. One of the chair If that happened was the arab spring. You remember in two thousand

in ten you had. Tunisia underwent this revolution. You saw it in Egypt You saw libya, you saw syria, some of them were violent. Some of them were not violent in yemen in Iraq, all across the region. Things were starting to get unstable. and so regimes that more certain of their hold power for decades to come were less certain. That's the first and second thing. If you had the rise of you on as a very dangerous power in the region and was happening before two thousand and twelve budget should have shifted into overdrive in those years as obama, the obama patient pursued, a policy of appeasement with iran, rather than confrontation with iran and iran is a sheer radical power. They now We threaten the state of Israel, which everyone knows with destruction, but they also- brighten, their sunni arab neighbours,

and, as I would do sometimes said, tell my friends, they won riad for breakfast. They want to use them, for and frankly, they want new york for dinner. I dont know toronto, maybe a midnight snack, but this The radical power of iran threatens them, and you see iran getting stronger and stronger as feel less certain. Now you had another factor which is the of sunni radicalism and that would be in the form of isis. now. Iran, as I said, is a sheer radical power. There also sunni radical forces, Al Qaeda hooper created nine eleven that sunni radicalism. One point out. Ices is to point out and they'll, be a three point and regimes in the gulf are off frightened of the sea at this iranian tiger, whose clause or getting longer and teeth, were getting sharper. You ve got this isis leopard that is roaming throughout that region, chopping off heads, decimating populations and instilling fear

in a very wide slot and territory. and here is another factor that is critical to understand. The change in the Middle east, When that iranian tiger and isis were leopard rising and becoming stronger, the eight hundred pound american guerrilla is leaving the building. So withdraw from the middle east of the united states, at least the reduction of the military footprint of the united states in the Middle EAST. I think that help sees the mines. many people on the golf course if there is one thing, Jordan that connects obama trump and by and they don't want to be in the same sentence with one another on merely anything none of them are looking to send more american troops to the Middle EAST. So when you see these threats that tiger in that we're getting stronger and the eight hundred pound or has left So they say: there's a to utter pound roller with a keep on

called Israel. Let's work in closer cooperation with that, so the fundamental thing to appreciate He's they had a different understanding of their most vital security interests and working closely with Israel helps them advanced. Theatres, second issue, is the rise of Israel. Is a global technological power is, release the second great source of income. Asian. outside of silicon valley. Silicone valleys, one israel that ecosystem that we have for in it. Jason, is remarkable and we're not just a great innovator. When it comes to technologies. in traditional fields like agriculture or water, also taken area like cyber, which has both civilian and military applications. So Israel is one tenth of one percent of the world's parking. with all of nine million people, but we account for about twenty percent of

private investment inside so Israel's punching two hundred times above its weight in cyber, so we're not a country the size of new jersey, withal nine million people- as I say in cyber israel's bigger than a china, but there are other areas of autonomous vehicles- artificial intelligence all of these technologies of the future and maybe we'll just to talk about a why Israel has that ecosystem, how we developed it, but we have it now. If you think about arab worlds, traditional boycott of Israel. It's about is intelligent. Is organ nevada utah why I'm in colorado, new mexico, arizona and half a california boycotting silicon valley. It makes no sense, and today Then you have leaders in the region who care about the future of their regimes, which they all do, but who are smart enough to understand that the word

it still oil today. But who knows what's going to happen in twenty thirty forty fifty years they have to prepare, countries for a different future and mohammed inside the crown prince, The emirates is certainly one of those leaders and I think mom had been summit and we could talk to show me in all of that. But I think he's also one of those leaders and their looking around the region bottom line as it is this that their security interests and their economic interests are tied to a partnership with Israel. They want to actually move into an alliance that Israel. But they do have a big problem. These regimes have been poisoning populations against israel for six seven decades, So it's very hard for them to turn on a dime and say all of a sudden, hey, you know need to do this for the good of our countries. It is very difficult. They don't have democracies, there were thor tarion systems some

people say it's you no more benevolent or less benevolent, but they're all authoritarian systems, but look opinion in these systems matter, and they have to navigate particularly when you ve seen in other countries, a whole regimes go down because they respond to public opinion, we'll have more with ambassador on Burma in just a moment. At first when I tell you about birch gold experts, when the president, Joe Biden, is planned to forgive. Student debt could cost over five hundred billion dollars their solution. Higher eighty seven thousand new iris agents and squeeze taxpayers with an additional one point: two million audits per year- there's never a better reason to diversify away some of your savings and precious metals and britain those savings in attacks, sheltered retirement account with birch gold group jordan to nine eight nine, eight, nine, eight and skull, will send you a free and focus on how to diversify into silver and gold tax, free brcko as an eight plus rating with a better business bureau count.

five star reviews and thousands of satisfied customers, J, o r d and nine eight nine, eight nine eight to claim your free, no obligation imposed on how to protect your savings with gold, texture nine, eight, nine, eight, nine eight. so. Let me let me summarize just so that I make sure I've got this, so you made a couple of points at the beginning, one of which was that these peace agreements, multiple peace agreements for them emerged in a very short period of time after a very slow process of similar peace agreements extending over about seventy year period and that there is some movement towards this in two thousand and two by the saudis, but that was mostly reaction to the negative publicity associated with nine eleven. You said that

The saudis, however, by two thousand and fourteen because of all sorts of changes on the international scene, including the american withdrawal and the rise of the herbs. And the dawning realisation of Israel's value as attack and innovative. How had convinced many arab leaders in the region? including the saudis that It was more intelligent to pay attention to the threat that was posed to their regimes into the stability of the area by internal dissidents, both on the shi ite andor, Andy Funny side, then, to be concerned the israeli palestinian conflict and to ignore the potential benefit part. The partnership with Israel might bring about and that shifted hard enough by two thousand and fourteen, so Even the saudis who might have been regarded as particularly intractable because of their partnership with the were hobbes, were willing to contemplate the idea that the proper pathway forward for them

In fact, a normalization of of relations Israel and the development of the the economic stability and military security that might, sure: the longevity of their regimes so, just a couple, a couple of fine points on which on what you said, first of all, it's it's before two thousand and fourteen by two thousand and twelve. It was already there. I would say we when we went into the prime minister's office too. I was I joined prime minister Now there is a senior adviser in two thousand nine very quickly we see a situation where we were assessing the region in the same way as the saudis, because you'd have officials president's prime minister's senators who would come through the region and a lot of them, becoming from riad, are coming from, dhabi and they would say to prime minister Netanyahu, you know what Your analysis of the problems of the region are the exact same as the analysis that were hearing in the gulf, and so there

clearly a marriage of interests. At that point, the other thing I would say just to clarify its not the dissidents that happened, because my mother wrote a book with that and sharansky about the case for democracy. When I think of dissidents, I think about you, know people were fighting for freedom and for political, civil rights and human rights. Obviously these nah terrors. I mean I wasn't thinking more about the arabians and isis right now, so we rainy than isis. I agree with you, I would say its terrorist wanna, not only destroy their regimes, but they want to actually take the whole world back to the eighth century, and you know there's sunni terrorists. They want to take us to the eighth century. Does she I want to take us to the tenth century. Maybe they'll get

gather and they'll make a compromise and try to take us back to the ninth century, but they're all bad, and there are a huge problem for any regime that is actually focused on the future and does don't want to go back to the dark ages. Ok, ok! Now how are the now? You use laid a fair bit of stress on the positive saudi contribution to this peace process, but the saudis aren't signatories yet and maybe they will be, but I have heard from many informed sources that they were powerful players behind this, and were fundamentally not only on board with this, but in some sense enabling it I'm wondering, given their the there, the bet with the devil in some sense that they made with the were hobbes man. I'm sorry, I have metaphorically to some degree, howard, the saudis managing to move towards normalized.

nation of relations with Israel, given their partnership with a particularly fundamentalist brand of whether fundamentalist brand of of of the war hobbes. How are they managing and is? What's the remaining threat there to the district, further distribution and me Of this peace process, while for it to me the salaries of the invisible hand behind the whole abraham cords, it's hard for me to imagine, there would have gotten off the ground without at least their tacit support, so crane. If you ve been there, you know it's a bridge literally from saudi arabia. You could, in american term, seed is sort of the fifty first state of of saudi arabia, so the idea that the buck rainy would have made a peace with Israel with the saudis giving a red light. I just don't believe that that would be the case. Think even the emirates, despite the real leadership of mohammed benzene and be said, if the saudis headed complete red lie against doing this

and were fighting it actively. I think a very hard to imagine that he would have agreed to move forward. Also, remember that in order get from Israel to the emirates. You gotta fly over saudi arabia. Unless you want to go around and fly over iraq and IRAN, I don't think anybody wants to do so. The saudis made their heirs is available for plant flying over. So there is no question that they were behind it and I think they probably saw by rain and the emirates as a is a trial balloon to see how that goes, to see how the public, our publics does you know you never know exactly about public opinion in these societies that are more closed societies in a democracy, you can tell what People are because they say it openly and freely on all the television stations in everybody's criticising everybody in these countries. When you do a big event, my dad a big move for peace. You know you, you maybe thank your assessment is right about where the public is that you don't know for sure, and I think that

part of that process. Unfortunately- and maybe we'll have a chance to get into this, unfortunately, the trumpet straighten began the abraham records in the final months of the present, rather than in the first months of the presidency, and I think was a missed opportunity, certainly better late than never. When it comes to a breakthrough. Peace this was something that was possible to do years. Before because, as I said already in two thousand twelve two thousand thirteen the they were ready that the answer to that question, and when you're thinking about peace, the first one is, do these people actually want peace, forget about them doing the dance internationally to try to get to try and on the right side of what popular elite opinion is it should be seen as peacemakers that they always wanted, but would they actually want to make peace? I did. They were already there about a decade ago.

we tried. I must confess we tried with the obama administration Israel did in its second term to convey. Them to move along this track and to try to focus their efforts choosing an israeli arab peace in and then carry with secretary of state- and I spoke to him tat- was thought about, doing it and explaining that the arabs already- and he was insistent- and this was been had been conventional wisdom for two decades. He said the only, that you're gonna get these arabs to make peace with you, as you make peace with the palestinians, and I would have but not just Democrats, but also republicans for two decades saying you know. If you make me for the Palestinians, you'll have peace with some two dozen arab states, and I would say well that may be taught a lot or you may be right? They'll have no other big excuse that they can put forward, but one of them I will send you don't want to make peace. Does that mean that we have to just wait when these countries interests are to move forward? So we try with second

we carry so many times to convince him to take this approach. He, instead of where he did the iran deal, which is also connected to this, but he try. Again used the same formula and a failed approached a peacemaking and down this israeli palestinian rabbit hole which was a road to nowhere. There's so much insistence. I've heard this from other people that I've talked to here, and you see this playing out on the media landscape. There's there there's it's as if there's an insistence, and maybe it psychologically rooted to some degree to redeem. the entire intractable complexity of the Middle east to a single point. Of course, you can imagine the psychological advantage of that. It's because you reduce and irreducible set of problems to something hypothetically comprehensible so you're focusing on Israel versus palestine, and then that becomes a

tractable moral issue to some degree, because then it depends on which side of the argument that you take and that seems to have completely stymied any attempts What do the sorts of things to go around in some central to find alternative routes in a manner that you described? But why do you? Why do you think that the Israel versus palestine conflict has become such an unbelievable sticking point for this kind of But what is this? What are the sociological and economic reasons? I suppose and geopolitical reasons why that might be the case When carries carries attitude seems seems in some sense, incomprehensible, given that You were providing evidence that there was at least some possibility that there is an alternative route. Yellow said, I that you that's a deeper question. The jurassic now is why people have the view of Israel that they do. I let's take a step back. The idea that there is a middle east conflict singular is ridiculous.

you could solve the israeli palestinian issue tomorrow and it's not gonna impact what happening in yemen or in libya or any rock. In ten other places, freeze around the region, but every We focus on this being a middle east peace process, not a middle east peace process. It may be an israeli palestinian peace process. You- saw that conflict. Maybe it'll have some positive impact beyond that conflict, but in the middle east, to have a battle that is going on between the forces of modernity and mediaevalism? That's what the coffin and there are sunni forces on the in on the modern side and shit This is on the mountain side in their sunni forces. On the on the medieval sided she forces on the medieval side. Israel is clearly on the force from modernity as a country society is the one real democracy. If you came to, Israel should have all the right to free speech.

freedom of the press, independent courts, the things that we take for granted for granted in democratic societies, you don't have that anywhere else and these societies are trying to overcome centuries. Of of of this, here again to see if they can chart a path for a different future, but the focus on the israeli palestinian conflict. Why? Everybody believes that this car, It is the root of every thing. I think a lot of it has to do with the diminution of Israel for many many decades, because if you can cast, Israel is the villain in that theater and worthy. our full force against the palestinians, who are the weak party, and so therefore, if it can all be cast in Israel and Israel can be blaine. I think sitting on thousands of years of history It was a story about how How absurd the israeli palestinian conflict is the source of all the regions, problems, let alone the world's problems and by what background. I remember there was about

former national security adviser, I think it was general jones once gave an interview, and he said something very bizarre. He's you know if I were god and I came to obama- I told him to to resolve one issue in the world. I would tell him to resolve the israeli palestinian conflict. Is bizarre, a bizarre statement, but it shows the centrality did this conflict is held and even we'll get to it with proper, where trump was also at the beginning, like the holy grail of peacemaking, is you're going to solve the israeli palestinian conflict, makes me wonder to some degree to to to how its tied to a very deep underlying debt dynamic, which is something like its being played out over thousands of years in many different places, as that that makes the Jews in some sense.

The eternal scapegoat. You don't want it's so convenient that you can point if Matt imagine, you're a leader, that's beset by all sorts of ethical troubles in the middle east and you can point to the outsiders who are the jews. Let's say who also happen to be successful, which is extremely annoying and you can say, like the germans did in nazi germany will look at those successful outsiders. They must be oppressive thieves and then all the attention that might be paid to the distributed evil is localised that particularised and externalize evil announced just hyper convenient for everyone involved, and so it seems to me that there is something like that going on. In addition to many other things, I agree with you, I it's it's a potent cocktail. I think part of that cocktail for decades was essential, the oil because you have oil producing states and Israel is seen as being on the other side. You ve got twenty two arab states. You got fifty seven muslim states. So what do you mean

you're going to stand with the one jewish state in in the re great see how oil affects the politics of russia, ukraine and everything around there, so oil, the big role, but I think it's also sitting on this powder keg that goes back One thousand years with this attempt not just to make the Jews let's say, escape, go, but also to pass them is some sort of source of evil in the world and the problem of the world. Well, you you do have this weird situation that you described. So you said if I got my figures right, that Israel is one tenth of one percent of the world's population, but responsible for something like twenty percent of a major element of technological development, and so you have this not only, have this status on the jewish side as an extreme minority, very tiny population, considered by global standards and generally within any country but you also have the additional problem of a tiny minority who are disproportionately successful,

at an exponential scale, and so you can. imagine that people looking now at that have a moral problem to solve, which is something while there hardly any of these people and their really really successful and so either are doing something right in something. By the way, which implies that we're doing something wrong or- thieves and violence and care. There's a fair bit of moral hazard in the calculation like that, because, obviously the easier pathway to take, rather than the radical self examination, but that might be required to determine what you're doing wrong is to point the finger and say well. There are obviously just thieves and parasites and should be scourged, and I mean it's not like that. we happened once it's happened? It's happening continually and it's pretty much happened forever. Now it gets. First of all, I think it's a it's a it's a deeper discussion. I know we're going to do a deep dive, we'll have to do it even deeper dive on sort of the mission of the Jews and the nature anti semitism wow

developed. Why developed why you see it's reemergence today? I think that's true, but the b is the israeli palestinian conflict cast, Israel is the world's jus. That's a kind of new form of anti semitism to single out Israel for special treatment to treated by saying that you treat no other country in the world and that when Israel does something wrong, because you know we're not a perfect country, no country is perfect in and somebody could make a mistake. Somebody could the something in the society. That's wrong! We're the only country, when something is done. That is wrong. We supposedly have no right to exist which are It is a much deeper question of the role the Jews have played in the world in our Abu Ghraib. I remember happening about twenty years ago in iraq, and people were rightly all by that, and people called for here the role and all sorts of things tat. Nobody says america doesn't have a right to exist because of our great but every day, multiple times a day. The second anything that Israel does is perceived.

Wrong. We no longer have a right to exist, but I wanted. I wanted to tell you a story just when you looking about the disk EL or or the scope of the israeli palestinian conflict when you're thinking about global affairs, a story that happened to me when I was ambassador, so new ambassadors to washington Usually get you pay, courtesy calls to other ambassadors and dead, way of tradition. You you mean about ten other ambassador. So when I came to washington, the first ambassador see was the ambassador of Egypt to the united states. Then the abbess. Jordan to the united states, who are peace partners. I think I met the about for finland, germany and a whole on a whole bunch of others. I found myself in my seven years. I met a lot of ambassadors who they would come to town and it was there would find ourselves in their top ten list of embarrassed those that they wanted to meet with, and I would never turned down a meeting with another ambassador for two reasons: number one is Israel's not in a position to turn down anybody, any friends, potential friends

Second thing is: if you meet us ambassador It usually saves you about five years of reading the economists which I don't really like to read the economist, so one particular day I come back, and it's. After a long day I had seven or eight meetings, whitehouse congress and I can in my waiting room. There is the ambassador of burundi to the united states, so give me give me a moment. I went into my office and I have to admit on your podcast. I had to look and Google Burundi, like I knew, was in africa, but that's about it. I didn't know what it bordered. I didn't know anything about its history. I did wikipedia thing in two minutes to try to get as much information as I can, and then I invited him into my office and we started speaking- and this happened to me today? It is very rare for me it might be rare for you that day, it happens about twice a year. I was actually tired of listening to myself. Speak.

I was so exhausted. Having talked for about eight hours, I just didn't want to talk about iran about the peace process about anything to deal with Israel, and I nothing about burundi, and I get this very smart guy. I think he was harvard educated in the office and I start peppering him with questions about burundi. What do you make in burundi? What do you export from burundi? What are you trying to achieve in the united states? And then I ask them: do you have a security problem and he said not since two thousand for myself, happened in two thousand for he said well in nineteen. Ninety four, you had the genocide in rwanda spilled over to burundi and I had a terrible violence over the next decade and there was some sort of cease fire, a peace agreement in two thousand and four and since then we haven't had a security problem and I asked them how many? well died in that decade between ninety four and two thousand and four. and he says three hundred thousand, I said really rounded thousand. I said how many people you think, have died in the history of the israeli palestinian conflict

now this meetings about two thousand fifteen, so we're talking about a century almost a century in nineteen, twenty, When you had an attack outside of the immigration office in java until twenty fifteen, where I'm sitting with this ambassador, intelligent person anything about it for awhile, probably thirty seconds or so, and then he said, two million And I said well you're, pretty close your only off by two zeros cause it's about many thousand twenty two thousand- the israelis and palestinians have died in this century of conflict. Since nineteen from nineteen twenty twenty. Two thousand, you take the israeli arab conflict. Will you take all the soldiers of Israel who have died, all the victims of terror, the wars that we have fought and you egypt, egyptian casualty and lebanese casualties and syrian casualties and jordanian casually you take the entire gothic you get two hundred and twenty five thousand

over a hundred and twenty five thousand about a face, or these really palestinian conflict without getting into whose rights whose wrong just in terms of the number of people who have died in this conflict this ambassadors. Jaw drops he cannot believe it. He said, why is the whole world obsess Would the israeli palestinian conflict a biblical phrase right, the biblical phrases to those to whom much has been given much will be demanded, and that seems to be the eternal position of the Jews in some real sense so I dont know what to make of that exactly. But one way of looking at, but what I told them in that meeting just to just two. To finish the point is, I said, you know it's a pair for us that the world is obsessed with Israel and demonizing Israel and that more resolutions are passed at the? U n, against Israel than all the rest of the world combined or in this.

It's called human rights council. Then, or I mean seriously, if you show the statistics to your viewers, they won't even believe it it's a farce, but I said it's not just a problem. Israel, this demonization in this piling on Israel, it's a problem for you. Nobody knows that three hundred thousand burundi's were killed in a decade. That is enormous tragedy Barely anybody even knows about it, because the world is obsessed with Israel. This is so then what I did, as I said to myself. Listen, I don't know anything about burundi, so simple grudging for not knowing anything about the israeli palestinian conflict. So I started asking other people and I will do this question, and you know you got a set it up. So you're not trying to game one answer, and I would do it sort of straight. how many people have been killed in the israeli palestinian conflict? The lowest number that I got was five hundred thousand a factor of twenty times. Is and when this person who was headed,

foreign ministry in Europe, the head of the middle east, a vision of the foreign minister of one of the european countries, he said: that's not true What you are saying is not true that hasn't been twenty two thousand, I said. Well, you know it used to be in antiquity. If you wanted to be a scholar, you'd have to sit in the library of alexandria and peru scrolls for a few decades. Now, please, need to do. Is Google it so going? the palm of your hand that ever expanding library and go look it up and he was sort of stone and so it is ridiculous. The obsession with israel forget about the fact that we have focused only on the israeli palestinian conflict and we have not open the door. Finally, we did too. These were the arab states the obsession of the international community with this conflict and every single person dies is of course, a tragedy for that family if you're looking at it from the point of view of the international community with that which threatens peace and security it's a non event.

They ve made so much focus on this for the last century and they wasted a lot of time. So would carry getting back to the to. The point that I wanted to make about carry is I try and Netanyahu trot. incessantly to tell him John in all. They know each other for three decades, There is a real opportunity here. You need to focus side, Netanyahu, talk about it at the? U n, this we'll drop. This is a couple years before tromp, where he says Never in my life thought. has I've seen the possibilities that I see today? The arab world is in a different place for all the reasons that we discuss, but he would listen, he was focused on the holy grail of peacemaking and this rapid hold to nowhere, because, unfortunately, the palestinians have not abandon their desire to destroy the one and only jewish state, which is a separate question from the apron records they have not abandon it and we try to convince, carry, go and focus on that.

any refused to do. In fact, there is a famous video If you have links that you put on your part com, where you can see, carry who says there are, those in Israel local leaders in Israel. I think he said who you can have a separate peace between the states in Israel without first having peace with the palestinians, and it goes no. No, no, no- And I said after it's too bad, he didn't say no six times, because then we would have had six peace agreements and not for because he said no four times, but tried very much we secretary carry and we failed They won focused on it and and one of the reasons why they didn't do it you're. Not only have this paradigm that goes back from oslo, that all roads, the peace must go through a mile or so everybody's waiting for the palestinians to deign to make

to even meet with Israel, let alone make peace with Israel, but everybody's waiting on the palestinians in solving this conflict and because the palestinians are holding the line. Inevitably more and more pressure gets brought to bear on Israel because we're seeing the The powerful party- and you know happens in a world where power and justice are seen. Pockets in the well, which the kind of world that we're living in now. So all the pressure comes onto Israel, and there were many other reasons why why carry decided to pursue it? There was also scepticism that when they tenaya was saying to have peace with the arabs, he was right we just trying to avoid making hard concessions to the palestinians, because making peace the arabs could be peace for peace and not land for peace instead of having the cold court on coke courageous decisions of sound, we're facing vital the vital interests of your country to make peace with with the palestinians

he wants to move to the arabs where it will be an easier path for him to do it without the political risk. That's how they thought about it, not realizing hey the middle east issue it is a real opportunity here, and here is something that people do not know why also failed with the trumpet administration at the beginning. They were not prepared to see that is well about a week after. I don't think I've said publicly, but a week after I went to visit trumpet trump town, this is a week after he gets elected sorry november. Twenty sixteen trump tower walk into his office in the First thing he says to me, so you think we can make peace. and I said with home. He said the palestinians almost surprised by hours. My question and I said no, but we can make peace with several arab states.

so we were telling the previous administration. We started telling him that now fast forward, three months Netanyahu visits washington. His first trip to washington as prime minister with trump in office You worry twenty. Seventy. Natalia says to drop, and I can said because he mentioned did recently, publicly as well? For the first time. What Netanyahu set to drop in that meeting. He said seventy five years ago, there's a picture of fifty are sitting with the leader of saudi Arabia and that helped established seventy five year alliance between the united states in saudi Arabia and he says to tromp, says, get abode you may envy ass. Amby said we change history, that's what he said now, took us about two years. To convince them of the opportunity Then it was real because

and this is really do more to president tromp, who deserves a lot of credit for a lot of decisions that he made, but at the beginning he was really fixated even at the end. To a certain extent, he was so fixated on the israeli palestinian peace process. That was, holy grail. That was the ultimate test of whether you actually done something rather than trying to do all of these agreements that have a huge impact in the way because a peace between Israel and saudi arabia is a actively the end of the arab israeli conflict, it's not the end of the israeli palestinian conflict. It's not if these really wrong conflict, but its essentially the end of the of a century old israeli air conflict, and I think that that's a goal that is worth pursuing. But it took two years. For them to see the opportunity that was there and then we Wasted another year because of our insane politics in Israel, where we're going from one election after the other. So by the time the president,

I'm gonna put out his peace plan, which was sort of an effort to open the door for the palestinians if they like to go through that door, but essentially it would ok real plan on the table, while Israel moves ahead and normalizes its relations with the arab world that process only started in the last year of his administration rather than in the first year, and I do believe that had We done this from the beginning of the administration. We would have a he's between Israel and saudi Arabia today. Because we waited too long, we we started very late in the game now the trump administration. You didn't waste the time they may not have recognise the potential for that breakthrough in those two years or three years. They didn't waste the time because they took steps that actually, for irritated the emerge so the abrams courts. So what I described to you before is the

fundamentals underneath the surface we'll get right back tomorrow with ambassador ron termer in just a moment. First, we like to tell you about elysium help. Elysium is dedicated to tackling the biggest challenge in health aging, their flagship product based. as focuses on n a D supplementation, which is important for cellular energy and reducing tiredness and a d, is a key component in cellular aging. Elysium has sold over three and a half million bottles of this supplement alone. Our very own, dr peterson, and his daughter, Michaela, have reported major improvements in mood and energy levels since using basis matter is a brain health supplement that slows the natural brain loss that occurs with age. It was developed with the university of oxford, and a recent doctor survey showed that ninety two percent of them would recommend matter to combat brain ageing. Elysium also offers cutting edge solutions to help support your metabolism and immune system signal. hopes, you maintain healthy metabolism, which declines, as you age format, is

next generation immune supplement that clears problematic cells that slow immune response in honour of September being healthy, aging month, J if he listeners, can get a special elysium offer for a limited time, only go to elysium health, dot com, slashed jordan and enter code age healthy at checkout to save twenty five percents sitewide on all elysium products. That's elysium health, dot, com, slashed, Jordan, promo code, age, healthy. So let me let me summarize some of this too, and how then I ask you some broader question, so Europe, you pointed out, and please correct me, I get it wrong. You pointed out that it's a straightforward, psychologically the assumption that all the conflict in the world but certainly on the conflict in the middle east is asked conceptualize in relationship to the israeli palestine. Like announced, morally hazardous and inappropriate, and also blind people. What

The flaws of the jewish state might be it also blind people to the fact that the that Israel is a hyper, successful staid and it has much to offer its era partners and the world in terms of technological development and innovation and governments. And now I think that's that's just clarity. True, as far as I can see, and then you pointed out there are many conflicts that are riveting: the arab and middle eastern world, but them fundamental of those likely is something conceptualize. As modernity versus mediaevalism and that's right during that war both on the soon he and the shi ite side. Then you and so you- u complex find some sense. The herb situation than you pointed out as well that their work ways around the israeli palestine conflict that were very productive. That you had in developing and that were emerging of their own accord, that the play

who were fixated on: israel versus palestine. Weren't were willing to consider, including the trump administration till relatively late in the game, and then ok. Now I swear some questions that come out of that. That would help me and possibly my listeners understand the broader cod. Next within which this is occurring in. So it's not a problem to reduce the complexity of the problem in the Middle east, the Israel, palestine conflict for a variety of reasons, and you start to detail out the complexities of the, situation with regard to this modern day versus mediaevalism scenario and so, if I ask you, let me I could get you deflation. For me, the status of other major players in the region in relationship to a potential pathway to pay forward. So I would like to start by picking your brain to some degree. About both Iraq and IRAN, and so I would like to, no. Are you see them in relationship to while the world you,

political situation, but to the eu I'm accords, and I would also like to know I've always thought that the palestine, Israel conflict was a bit too convenient for many major players in the region, partly because it could be used as a scapegoat and partly because support for the Palestinians caused a certain amount of intractable and can trouble, they did This is the moral hazard argument that did it detract people from other sources of unrest. Instability on corruption, we, the palestine, are backed by external players. Who are, I think, it's obvious who capitalizing on that conflict for their own purposes and so whose interests do you think it is primarily in the Middle east to foster and facilitate a continuing dawn, peaceful,

and off between the palestinians and the israelis. The first is the palestinians themselves, because they, Dining out on this conflict now offer since oslo, really for thirty years, and the words of the international community I'd say: the middle east is incredibly complicated. israeli palestinian conflict? Much less so, in my view, the reason why you have a conflict today? Is this Reason why conflict for the last century, which is the refusal of the palestinians to recognise the legitimacy of a name, state of the jewish people in any boundary in our ancestors homeward they refused to do it. It's it's very simple and almost role in their minds. We stole their house that's how they see it. They don't understand that this is the territory. You know where the patriarch of the jewish people prayed or our profits preached and our kings rule is a complete denial of any historical connection between the Jews in the land of Israel. There fuel, to accept some sort of compromise the fat

Did they haven't paid such a huge price for that refusal, because they ve been supported by various actors in the region for a long time, and I shall be able in the courts, is like the beginning of a shift away? It's the removal of the palestinians veto over there. process and the arab leaders for their own interests, which we discussed before security and economic interests? stand? We're not gonna give the keys to the Middle east to the person. Who is that Actively the mayor of ramallah, the leader of the palestinian authority, because palestinian politics are dividing, you have Hamas, which the terror organization that openly calls to destroy israel leading gaza, which is here, the palestinian polity than, on the other hand, you have this palestinian authority which refuses to confront the terrorists. And also make sure that the next generation is fired by the same hatred and denial of any israel's legitimate presence in the land, because they do it through their schools in their media, and everything else may also. people? Actually they put them on the payroll, those who are who are terrorists. So these

rarely palestinian conflict is a pretty Simple one case. Let me look. Let me ask you a question about that. This is something that bother me for a very long time and I think it's Keaton in some sense, so set up an analogy and it's a dangerous analogy and it may be an appropriate, but I'm gonna use at any ways, and so constantinople is now, isn't bull, that historically it wasn't, and so. You could say in some sense that the christians have a claim on constantinople and it's not like people haven't made that claimant I'm not saying they have a claim or that they don't. What I saying? Is that when you look at a given region, you can look at it through lens of different temporal durations and deal ethical conclusion that you derive is in some sense dependent on the spends of the temporal horizon that you're willing to consider now the argument you made,

for the legitimacy of the state of Israel is a ancient claim and then The question- and I think this really is it's an extraordinarily difficult question- how do you know which temporal horizon should be most are properly applied too given landscape, especially given that there are different claims, Andy when the temporal, frames of reference that are applied to the same territory of land by other people. And I mean the same thing is true say in north america, because the europeans came in and obviously there were living here before the europeans came in, and so it's an endless conflict in canada I'd say you were about to what degree the people who inhabited the territory originally have valid moral claim on the territory and its it's all right, it's been resolved. I don't think we know how to resolve it and then with the Jews. You seem to have this additional in since by the world that they solve it better

than anyone else and again. That has something to do with those two more being given more, will be demanded the Jews to be held consistently to a higher moral standard, but but it is a real problem. Why You think that standing should both ethically and practically, except the claim of the Israel state. Which it to exist and the Jews to inhabit it: Because I really is the central issue, the thing the thing with your analogy, in the issue of a sort of a new world war, the indians who came back. I am Some constantinople you'd have the christians who would come back and they would have had to have lived there continue. silly and then establish this state, and then the muslim powers is now. You have no right to be here, like no one would question if the native american somehow- and this is

the case, the data, but most people's we're lost the history when they lost their land. Now the Jews lived continuously, a small jewish community live continuously for over three. Thousand years and the land, the visual but jews, were dispersed all over the world and they came back no one has ever dealt with that where people coming back, but when you're talking about legitimacy does a historical legitimacy here where we are in our incestuous homeland, doesn't exist anywhere else. It's not displacing the natives. The Jews were the ones who were despite not by the romans, but also by the arab conquests, where a lot of Jews were people just don't know a history of most people. Sense of history is, you know, goes back to breakfast, so why should? Why? Should I we care about what happened, but if you, if those historical don't work for you when you could take the legal quiet and the legal claim was there wasn't ottoman empire here the ottoman empire collapse, the british, were given a mandate to control this territory, specifically by the league of nations, in order to enable the settlement of the Jews who, in the night

tenth century the late nineteenth century. The spring of nations were considered a our people people who don't consider the juice of people, but we have a four thousand year. History and peoples have rights of self determination, and so the british given a mandate by then the league of nations which folded into the united nations to actually affect the settlement of that terror. To enable the Jews to establish this homeland there that's the legal case is rock solid. The historical case is right solid into me. The more income his rock solid because work, people that the entire world time, thereby some jews. Any time we were Oppress I mean Jews would have a right to a state. Anyone, but does either the Jews don't have a right to a state and their ancestral homeland. That seems to me lunacy. Now there are people who say no People have a right to a state

Those people deny Israel's right to exist that there should be no nation states what I would call them being antis, I won't say their anti semitic one of the raised. One of the measures of anti semitism is all treating jews to a different standard than your treating other people, so if you believe any people have a right to state that there is such a thing as a people and what makes people a people, can be language, it can be a common culture. It can be a common history the one thing that the Jews were missing: historically, as they didn't have the same land, but all the elements of people whom they had. So, if you're going to look around the world and you're going to say people's deserve states but for some reason the Jews. Hu there stable isthmus cause more repression and persecution then against any other people. In history, at least any other people that currently exist in europe? you have pogroms and you culminated because everyone is

focused on the holocaust, which I think the holocaust has a certain sense, ordered our view of anti semitism and jewish history, because is it? Is it such a blinding event that happen million jews. Six million are wiped out. It's a third of the jewish people, the privilege of a hundred million americans or over ten million canadians use numbers of people, and I used to when I was in bastard to the united states to explain what the holocaust did to the Jews. I would tell americans if you can't wrap your mind a hundred I round a hundred no people imagine a nine eleven every day for a central, that's what the holocaust did to the jewish people. So it is such a seismic event that people don't reckon all the anti semitism that came before all the centuries of anti semitism that came before. People who killed two hundred thousand jews form a thousand jews. The Jews were expelled from england and then their expelled from france and their expelled from spain and expelled from Portugal all the persecutions. All the

runs all the massacres during the crusades before the crusades in antiquity in present day, you're sitting, I understand, and now in england, well, just discovered up in norwich a well. I don't have had a chance to read that story where they have a bunch of skeletons that they found that a bottom of a well and David, those skeletons to the twelfth to the end of the twelfth century, when there was a pogrom against the local jewish community, so anti amateurism his existed century after century a century- it's a big subject that we could baby tackle in the future, but but for me the bottom line is to make a case. We're the jewish people do not are not by right entitled to a state. is absurd, and the fact that some would deny it in our own homeland is the height of absurd Let me ask you one more question on the palestinian front then, so you ve made a case I would a globally and abstractly.

And this is not a criticism of the case precisely that nationhood. it's reasonable to associate nationhood with the the necessity of a state, and then you made a case. But the Jews have a legal right to the land they occupy as a consequence of what occurred the word you want a strong legal case, and so on I would say: let's particularize, that for a minute and perhaps I was arguing the palestinian case. I would say yes, but it wasn't reasonable for the world to purchase what was just end up bread to deliver to the Jews, disproportionate costs to the palestinians, Jordan, the world didn't do that the Jews did that the Jews came. and the emigrated in larger numbers. There was a trickle of immigration, the Jews over the centuries to be in the land of Israel in the holy land, but in the late nineteenth century, with the birth of modern zionism, and actually

Christian zionism came about three or four decades before that and maybe even further than that in the late eighteenth century? In the nineteenth century, the Jews came settled- the land strain, the swans purchase did a lot of times from from arab landowners who weren't even present, who would sell it. and the ottoman empire collapses so now the question is: What is this land than you have legal day too? Who does it belonged to stead of actually having a palestinian national movement, and this is really their great tragedy. They didn't have a palestinian national movement a hundred years ago, and they don't have it today, who says, look guys You have a right to be here, but we have a right to be in it. that's the case you're in a negotiation when somebody says you stole our house, even if you ninety nine point. Nine percent back, there's no justice to your client when another side says it's one percent yours by right, not just by might but by right,

and it's ninety nine percent hours, you're, actually in a negotiation and the roof, and the reason why you have to ask yourself why the palestinians, deny history, So Arafat went acquainted camp david, Yasser Arafat, the leader. The policy means at the time twenty years ago, goes to camp David and tells clinton. There was never a temple on the temple mount like. Why does save it and why they deny any jewish connection to Jerusalem. It's like you, hear the current palestinian leader on mars and says the Jews trying to judeo five jerusalem it's like saying the Chinese or trying to signify beijing or the russians crucifying mass, coming it's ridiculous, but why do they do that? Because the entire scaffolding of their rejection, ism collapses if we have a legitimate claim to that territory. The don't have to deny their claim, but they can't make themselves

take tat, one step which is by far That would be a very small step for a leader, but a giant leap towards peace. This I. Can they say that we, the jews, have a right to be in the land of the patriarchs, the profits and the kings. Then we're in a negotiation. Then we have to work out a settlement, but they refuse to cross the rubicon in the aftermath of the abraham, of course, there's a couple of things we want to get too, which partly would be the pathway forward for expanding abraham courts. We don't want to forget about that, but will take bit of aside venture into the palestinian issue. Do you see any reasonable pathway forward to movement towards peace on the palestinian side as a consequence or an extension of what's been achieved with the abraham accords so Yes, I would say yes, but my yes answer is the right way to approach this. Is you have

in the arab leaders, particularly in the gulf, the recognition as we discuss that their interests mean an alliance. That is what we should do is focused on. expanding, that broadening and deepening it, because you know had peace with egypt since nineteen. Seventy nine jordan with ninety ninety four, but it is cold peace, which is certainly better than a hot war. But you didn't have any people to people or business to business development. They could actually create the foundations for something that would convince the people societies that their interests are served by having their peace, that peace, the leaders get it, but the people's don't there is goodwill, that's coming from the bottom in the emirates, Can saudi arabia in in bahrain and other places in the region, but we should be trying to bandit. Now what would happen if we expanded it? If we had not? Now, sir, countries that the jordan and egypt and the other four, but if we can get it Twelve, what she'd be left with is IRAN. You mentioned iraq before iran and its access. That is,

those two israel, because you have this she a radical power in iran, is a historical aberration. You know we talk about this it does mean Jews have been kicked around in so many different societies. We have a pretty good sense of what a tolerant society is, so western democracies, like the united states and canada, are different in terms of history in terms of accepting in openness of jews and allowing them to become full members of society, but if I, to say, like which ancient civilization was relatively welcoming to the Jews, with all of its imperfections and problems and programmes occasionally, and things like that. It's the persian persian civilization cyrus the great king allowed the Jews to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem and throughout history we had decent relations and even when the shop was there for the revolution in nineteen. Seventy nine israel, good relations with them and also the united states, if this regime anyone would disappear tomorrow and you

have a semblance of if you don't want to call it a democracy, but a more open society in IRAN. With some representative government there you would good relations between Israel and that country, good relations between europe in that country. Let me right now: he's doing appeasement anyway, but there we know fire and then to have a kind of global revolution to export their particular brand of Islam. As Netanyahu said you know, there's a fight in islam between the sunni radicals and the sheer radicals of who's gonna be the king of the militant islamic hill, but vision place in their world. For christian for jews, certainly not for aid. As for anybody who disagrees with them, but if we are able to actually get to a point where we ve gotten the israeli air conflict as far as we can and all were left with, is IRAN and its proxies I think, then, we're gonna be left with the muslim brotherhood in its effort to push against, because that's another force in the region that is against it. It would be

the force of medieval is not on the force of modernity, then the hope would be there would be palestinian leaders who would say guys. You know the the air. armies in the muslim armies are not waiting. There's two too, hunger, Jerusalem they're already on the other side there in an alliance with the Jews and then hopefully there'd be courageous leaders within that society could emerge and start with something called some sort of accommodation, but I really think people don't gaudy ology seriously, and it it's a major flaw in international diplomacy, because we we have in europe. I call this. I don't want to touch on your field, but I think people project and if they, because they don't understand how important their ideology, which has gone wrapped up in a religious faith that they have to sort of destroyed the Jews were there. If it were christians, they would destroy that as well as well,

the radical muslims. They would try to destroy them The crusaders stayed there would be there, but the fact that its Jews makes it worse because, historically, the Jews were not seen as a powerful actor when muslims were, did by christians. Ok, they didn't like it that they could understand for the bullion, the class who sees himself as this warlike. A figure to be feed it by the nerd in the class which is supposed to be. You know the george custodians of seinfeld Faye may know the george could stanza Jews they can extensive it in fact, the greatest power of islam of the last century is, is bernard, louis and haste the birth of of european style anti semitism in the air world. One of the factors that gave rise to it was their defeat, hands of Israel, Eighteen, forty, eight, because they couldn't believe that which army could the feet there had to be

their forces at work, so the traditional protocols are the of zion Jews are manipulating all these forces, you don't really have a history that in the muslim world you had us having dinner status like christians in the muslim world, but the european style, globalist, jus way, entice, semitism vanished came in the wake. Louis I use in the of Israel's the feet of making sense of why this happen at the end of the day, getting back to the point, if if were able to finalize is many peace agreements as we can with the arab world. We diminish those forces on the medieval side, their power and Hopefully there would be forces within palestine society. I personally believe many of them are in the business sector That would seek a long term accommodation because peace with Israel would be great for the palestinians be terrific for that but it would be good for leaders. be good for their leaders be

They are more interested. The palestinian leadership has been more interested in the cause of the Cities in the palestinians themselves and the cause would die when there's peace with Israel but the palestinian, People would actually their futures would be improved, but they have to cross this rubicund. They haven't stage, one thing I can tell you just to put a period on that point only way it's going to happen. If is stays extremely strong. stronger. We are a country militarily, economically, technologically dip. adequately, which is the abraham records, is part of it. The more there's a sense within palestinian society. That time is not on their side that the train, leaving or has left the station. The more likely you ought to see people get on board. I want to turn to the issue of iraq at some point, but before that I want to go back to the notion of modern versus mediaevalism, and I want to speak briefly on behalf of the medieval

and I'm going to try to do that from a jewish perspective. Let's say because one of the things that very interesting about the jewish state is that, despite its status as a modern democracy. It all unbelievably deeply rooted in an ancient tradition and also draws the ethical wellspring of its right to exist. From that tradition, and so the Jews are wrestling and some real sense with the problem of precisely mediaevalism versus monarchy, but definitely tradition versus model, They do have some simple Furthermore, fundamentalist end of the religious spectrum, but, let's say more specifically the islamic well and also the jewish orthodox end of this from the reason I say that is because what The problems with modernity is that its? Psychological, it it frees you up technologically and produces a land,

of abundance in some sense, but the price that paid is ethical confusion and a kind of corrosive and nihilistic cynicism that emerges as a consequence of the rich, realisation. Let's say that the world is only objective in nature and that god is dead and west societies are play paying a very big price for this reflected, for example, and in places like south korea and Japan reflected not least in their catastrophically low birth rates and there. This is, what would you call their there? There their lack of a belief to that its ethically appropriate to move forward forthrightly the future? And so you can imagine that on the medieval aside and the christian fundamentalist side and the jewish orthodox side there's this insistence. That goes something like look A lot of things in these more traditional views that have to be their appropriate bulwarks against the dissolute tendencies

away. Overwhelmingly intellectual modernism- and I do believe that, the case now I've had some preliminary discussions with people who are more on the fundamentalist side, the muslim argument- and they took me to task for a variety of things- and but did it meant that from their perspective, even that there is in some fundamental sense in the ideal to be no compulsion in matters of religious belief, which is it doctrine that has some origin and in the koran itself. Now, of course, it's always subject. Interpretation, but at least you can make that pace, and so I would say Do you see a pathway, You said that, with regard to the palestinians that the proper approach in some senses to expand israel really- ship with other arab states, particularly on the diplomatic and economic france, and that opens up the rest of the arab world in some sense to be the beneficiaries of the immense innovative,

ass, the of the israelis on the technological index inside what Would you do to extend? to the medieval is given The Jews are also rooted in an ancient tradition and obvious we value and immensely and regarded as what we have the ethical foundation of their claim to a state. the pathway forward, and so one of the things that really struck me. After I had this conversation with a more national muslim? Later I've talked to lots of different muslim thinkers, as some of which are like it, and rosy illegal, quite profoundly anti lemon, some real sense, the the What was very heartening to me was that, despite rather fractious nature of the conversation it was watched by many millions of people have gone. two and a half million views in the first two weeks. It was posted and Some of them were muslim and most of them were traditionalist muslims and all of them said almost with

an exception that There are absolutely thrilled at a conversation like that could take place. A real issues were discussed relatively We but intensely there was a sense that I got that they were extremely pleased to regarded as valid participants at the table of this so there are a lot of a lot on packer. I will say about the Jews first, what different, is we're not a mission icing a missionary face, so there you know before article Islam. They have to spread their particular brand his islam all over the world, that is an article of faith that they have Certainly, in all those regions that the that is long once held, they have to go back and sort of reconquered, and I think if there is a

christian group there would believe they have the mission eyes to everybody around. That would also make it harder for them to develop tolerance. For those who disagree with a big or, I think, in a different category, because we ve been you'd have to go back to the bible. And how we governed in the bible, and it certainly was imperfection there. I mean, I think, one of the one of the most remarkable things about jewish scripture, is that all the blemishes or put their for everybody and obviously Jews wandering through the desert, you know it's it's forty years, but the five stories of them sitting or so whatever that number is, then it's all there and all the wards and everything, and even king David? you know when he, since in the profit is telling him you know, you're the sinner, that's the foundation of the rule of law frankly and that and that the jewish leaders would put a king being rebuked by anybody. Is remarkable in itself. So that was always There was always there was always a check on power, but people could argue the jury

still out, because you haven't had sovereignty for two thousand years now you're working your way through the modern world, I think Israel, is actually an excellent example of reconciling fee in freedom and I'm somebody who was born and raised in the united states, which you may have mentioned at the top, and I always thought that the greatness of america, one of the things, is their ability to recognize solve faith and freedom in a way that Europe did it, because it's sort of abandoned faith, in the Middle east, they couldn't accept freedom and that america could do it and now a lot of those things are breaking down in the united states. But let's take a step back about five centuries and in here I want to go back something I read that fascinated me by Zaher, berlin, the great british philosopher said, the sincerity is a concrete, completely modern virtue It doesn't exist before he said the seventeenth century, maybe the sixteenth century, like this idea, than we have today. Then except other people who disagree with us

fundamentally on theological matters, because we know that day are true to their faith and they live by those principles. Did not exist before the sixteenth century, so when protestants, killing catholics and catholics, were you know, killing people since in Europe they weren't, saying it all back thomas, more others. Well that guy really believes what he believes and we have to have appreciation for that. No sincerity is a completely you know, modern. virtue- and I think, is a very interesting James Q, Wilson, the gray sociologists- I don't know if you have ever had a chance to meet him, but he wrote it s say I think it was an city journal about twenty years ago called the reform islam needs and Let s see he's explaining how mokroe see rose in the west end didn't rise, because philosophers got around a table and came up with ideas. He says it rose because the experience of kings,

because you had these religious wars of fanaticism in the sixteenth century and the kings understood that they're not gonna, have young men to collect crops or to gather taxes from if this, ten use for more and more decades more more century. So what you had was a freedom of conscience that emerged, then the philosophers common codified. Then you expect the freedom a little bit and then they codified. Of course it could be reversed. You can have the power that wants to take you back. All sorts of things can happen like two way, but what Interesting to me, Is he saying that islam now- and this is right after nine eleven, where you have the shia radicals and the sunni radicals, you might be actually in that path, where you have these religious wars and in the wake of these religious wars. You have the ability to have space for descend to have freedom of conscience and We only see it in hindsight, it might take many decades, but frankly it hundreds of years for these demands

I d is to develop in the west, even the founders. As you know, there was slavery in the united states for a century. You didn't have women that had the right to vote for a hundred fifty years, but the de as the ideas that they put in place in. Seventeen, seventy six and later when they were developing the constitution. Those are the ideas that still give the sense that you can keep expanding it now. Could what you see happening in the middle east, with the forces of modernity, fight face the forces of mediaevalism, out of this for men, violence and there's one differences in aside between today in the sixteenth century, the ability, of one person or a small group of people to kill many thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds, that's what's differ, baby you're, seeing the middle east in the twenty first century is sort of where europe was in the mid, sixteenth century and you're moving, hopefully to a different future. Now we can speed that up because a communications because of tat between people. So what may have happened in high school

in a hundred years can happen in ten years. but the real danger- and this gets to iran the real danger, if you allow any of these fanatics to get their hands on nuclear weapons, because when you marry militant islam to nuclear weapons, now you're talking about danger to millions or tens of millions of people, so the fires burnt themselves out in europe in the sixteenth century. You can tell a lot of people, but this is a different order of magnitude- and I think that's why the most important thing- and this is our view and israel- but it's not just the two of you- it's not just for israel, all our arab neighbours. It's also for europe So for the united states, because where the little satan is an italian says america's the great satan. gets aggravated. Maybe there are middle sized satan, but Their designs are not just on Israel there on you to reverse history. To up end the whole order The chinese are trying to replace the united states

but here you have the militant islam, you have a fanaticism that is trying to up end the whole order and to think that the traditional rules, the times will work with a new your armed power, whether it the sunni or she a power that its radical that is armed with nuclear weapons. To think that the traditional cost benefits of disturbance and mutually assured destruction will work gambling with the future of the world. But if your back in that situation, because you couldn't stop it. What you're gonna have to make the best of it, but to allow something like this to happen is completely insane. and that's what's happening as we speak. trying to negotiate a nuclear deal with these, I tol as wrong that are trying to its. What this revolution around the world I mean it's insanity to do something like this and this. If this happens, as you talked about, who were the forces of modernity, who are the forces of medieval ism amendment evil side, the point the Shia point? certainly wrong and all their

proxies to the region: the sheer militias in Iraq, the the sheer terror proxy in lebanon which is hezbollah, there, I in yemen, which is the Hutus there. trolling through their products, in terrorism a huge half of these medieval it's on the other side, you have, as I said, ok up and that replace really by ices, but sunni fanaticism has not disappeared, it will. appear again and what you want to do is move those forces of modernity, and here I would put those gulf states not because of their modern democracies, because they are trying to advance their society. So let's look in women's rights in saudi arabia compared now. to the united states, that the candidates to europe but compare to women's rights in saudi arabia. Twenty years ago, ok, what's happening in through the opening of these societies and, if you think about it in the sixteenth century contacts the progress is remarkable

that's why I want to draw a positive attention to these developments, because I think I know psychologically. There's a there's, a there's, a rule in terms of establishing peace and prosperity, and stability of negotiation. That seems to work at every scale and sulphur apple in your marriage, you, criticise your wife if she does something wrong and she might do the same to you and Some utility in that but be of skinner was a famous behaviorist. He could train animals to do virtually anything and he said: reward works a lot better than threat and pain. Although you can use threaten a reward works better, but you have to pay a price, for it and so with skinner, was training around to climate. Do little dance on top of it and then climb down the other side of the latter being he could train animals to do virtually anything what he would do is eat and watch the road in the cage for a very long time was usually a hungry by the way and when the rat was near, the lottery. food palate and then

just hang around near the ladder and then now and then it would put its paw on the floor it's wrong and he'd give it a food pellet and then, as soon it was putting its paw on the first run a lot and then be the second wrong and by careful attention and reward for. Do progress he could get animals to do things. complex skinner, pigeons to navigate guided missiles by pecking on photographs in rough, from the landscape below. And so slowly and I know that's kind of abstruse and it seems like a sideways move, but it's not because one of the that's very much worth doing, and I think you capture that very well and the last thing that you said in one works, I haven't outage, which is comparing yourself too, who you were yesterday and not to who someone else is today. An idea is your best Azure is your previous self and you should, driver incremental improvement. At the rate you can

image, and you should recognise that incremental improvement in yourself and you should reward and you shouldn't denigrated because it isn't a leap forward that too big for you to manage, and it's not getting you the where someone else who is hypothetically better off, then you might be well, that's counterproductive, and when I see these things putting the Middle east but say on the saudi front, as you just pointed out from a western. we might say well, you know you little hard on your women and we also know that rights granted to Women are very good predictor of economic progress. Turns out and also of educational status among children. And so there are both ethical and nickel reasons why that might be a bad idea and we can shake our fingers. You because you're not doing that and to some degree, perhaps that's appropriate by more importantly, if we do so something like increment progress in that direction and we want facilitated, we

be saying: hey, look man. This is what's happening, abraham accord, sides for all of your faults and ours. Let's point out there, looks like a nice move forward and it it is unfortunate as far as I'm concerned, more Positive light hasn't been shed on the abraham accords themselves and on them contributions of the people who made them possible- and I would say that, particularly although you not uniquely true of the saudis and it's very heartening to me, given the complexity of the last thirty years and nine eleven and the hobbies and all of that. That the saudis were behind this and that they are willing to they appear. To move forward, I agree with you said, and I want to explain why? Why? I think it is because I think it also explains the event that surface the abraham accords is what

and when I gave an exit interview, what I was finishing my time is ambassador and they said who's next, you know who's next, you ve done for, in the last six months who's. Next I said nobody, but explain why I said nobody, and unfortunately I wanted to can you, I believe, actually the current us administration could continue. They just have to completely changed their policies and I'll explain why This gets also to saudi arabia, in the whole view of saudi arabia of visas, iran in terms of who is your partner in the region, What I said to you before about the Oh you're, at the beginning, to get the trump administration to sort of sea I said also: do they didn't waste time because they shifted? U s. Policy in this shift was critical to helps, fifty eight premature accords again, I want to draw a distinction. Between the surfacing of the relations between Israel and arab states, verses happens underneath the surface goes underneath the surface since that change into and twelve eleven ten. That was,

All moving forward underneath the surface in various Degrees and speed, but it was moving on the surface, the Abram accords and twenty twenty one the surfacing event now? What contributed facilitated surfacing at the most important policy the? U s, confrontational passed for visa, the IRAN and I'll explain when the? U s is confronting IRAN as a policy their confirming the saudis worst enemy in the people in saudi arabia. Get that because their firing rockets into their airports there, the one attacking their oil facilities, the same thing in the emirates, whose attacking their ships whose firing drowns, whose a threat to their when the? U s is confronting their worst enemy. You open up the political space these arab leaders to common into an open alliance with Israel that was critical from changed from appeasing IRAN to confront

iraq now all of a sudden, an mba s who doesn't say didn't say publicly, but behind the scenes and envy said king comment of a buck rain and others can look at their people and say guys, Don't you see on September fifteen, two thousand and twenty you see that trump and you've gotten antonio standing there yeah. We know, we've said all these things about the israelis for many many decades, but guess what that trump guy he just. God custom salami january. Second, twenty twenty he's. fronting iran. He starving them at the castle there using to fuel their war machine in the region. We need to stand with him. and then it's on ya was leading. You know authorizing all of these operations. Freeze to attack a rainy and positions and syrian due to all sorts of things in the region against IRAN. So you ve now open the political space.

For these leaders to move into a public alliance with the united states, not once the? U s shifts its policy towards appeasement. Why, in the world, are the leaders in the region why they gonna stand with a president who is actually undermining their own interests and endangering their peoples? You ve actually shrunk all the political space, so the first import policies, you need to confront IRAN and admitted nation that confronts iran will move us closer to it. they have a neighbor imports and deepening the second thing that day, It is they embraced Israel. The trumpet illustration, Jerusalem Go on hides all these issues that were made where many people said it was going to prevent peace from happening. It will be a big boat, a peace while it then create peace between israelis and palestinians, but that wasn't happening anyway for a century for the reasons we discuss but message that it send to the arabs in the region in the gulf. It said that if they want to get closer to washington they should move closer to Jerusalem. So you

we make them understand the importance of having a solid relationship with jerusalem, and here you have to say that tromp by now abandoning envy s. the custodians of which we can talk about by not abandoning him he show that he was actually a reliable, frank. Usually the way the arabs in the region c is Israel is if the united states is can is, is in friction with Israel, which was the case for most of the obama administration on settlements on this and that that's assigned to them that the euro is not a reliable out because they know the israel. U s. Relationship is fundamentally different because we share interests. We share values the it's very, very deep they get, The u S is now can is bothering Israel and turning the building of jewish apartments in jerusalem into a real crisis. These, I'm gonna be reliable people and they get it if they can iran and they embraced Israel. They move actually herbs closer and the third factor which was critical table

vito away from the palestinians stopped chasing down that rapid hole. So the trouble- illustration. Ultimately, it stop chasing them because he made the decision on Jerusalem and the pound simians effectively. After that decision, cut off ties with tromp and guess what jared cushion and from steam they didn't rush after them. They said guys we're here. You know our number in the time they put forward a plan. Eventually if you want to go through the door for a realistic solution to this conflict, where both sides will get something in both sides. Will compromise were there to support you if not we're moving ahead. So three legs of this tool in terms of: u S, foreign policy confronting IRAN, embrace Israel and take away the till from the palestinians now, The binding administration there, peace in Iraq, which is the worst thing they can do, I can't there embracing Israel to the extent that Trop administration has, but they haven't fully reversed it.

and on the issue of the veto, for the palestinians, their slowly. But surely trying to move the palestinian issue back into the centre in the name of helping the palestinians, it actually just hearts that, because, if we actually move ahead with the abraham accords. Then we could get those forces within palestinian society who wanted to accommodate us now. A few weeks ago, on my podcast diplomatically incorrect for by Biden, made a visit to Israel. I What biting can do to win the nobel prize because, Binding they'll give the noble price you they'll never give the nobel prize to try them out of what he does. They'll, never give it to Netanyahu, no matter what he does, but they into obama before he did anything. They will certainly give it to provided for actually doing something. I said: here's how you win the nobel prize oh to saudi arabia, and you tell the saudis, here's how we're going to deal with a costs. Shogi incident was a horrible incident, we're putting it behind us a b c and d. Ok, here's how we're going to deal with the problem of yemen,

because the saudis having yemen, what Israel as in lebanon, they ve got a tear organization. These hutus, that r r r establishing essentially a beach head for iran to attack them from the south lie the iranians have a beachhead against Israel from the north with hezbollah too. Because from the north one of the first acts the obama thereby administration did- was to remove sanctions on the hutus. For no reason imagine the message that sent to saudi arabia, so to tell the saudis here's how we're gonna solve selfish yogi. Here's how we're going to deal with the issue of young now I'm going to change my policy, and this is what, by the needs, win the nobel prize, I'm going to change I will see one hundred eighty degrees on Iraq. confront the iranian regime with all elements of american power, and if there was a credible military threat of iran's nuclear facilities, they would not break out to the bar we would put crippling. Actions on them will reach out to the dissidents in iran await this regime is well meaning you have a clear strategy to confront Iraq and

tells envy ass. He says I don't want to go back to the american people and tell them. I started a new war in the Middle east, for you. I need one thing. I need to go back to the american people and say I brought peace in the middle east between israelis balance and that's really the big price now if I'm ambitious, and I want this relationship with Israel I wanted for my security and economic interest. That's my opportunity to look at my own people, and so america- has shifted. We have now a bipartisan policy confronting iran standing with president, whose confronting our worst enemies that will give him the political space to make peace, and I think by the way that when I just told you I don't could be done in six months, it doesn't require I could size it, it's a it. I think the chances of it happening approach zero. I want to be optimistic, so I'll give it point. One percent. Because they are wedded- divided administration to a policy of teasing this regime in tehran, and begins and ends their home,

problem with the abraham accords. It's not that they don't supported its at the policies that they put in place. or not facilitating it, are actually undermining it. Now the good news is fundamentals that I spoke about of the rise of iran, the rise of sunni radicalism, america's not in the region. We have were the heirs, frank, those fundamental still exist, and so therefore the put essential for the diplomatic breakthrough will survive this administration. The one thing that would undermine it if it Eric administration decided to send five hundred thousand troops to the Middle EAST. And establish military bases over, they would be the bloom. Would be off the israeli rose, okay or if Israel lost its technological edge and all of a sudden. We had a brain drain because our government decided to hike up taxes and not let people afford apartments in Israel and they all left and went to silicon valley or someone else, and you want to have an innovation engine as long as we have an innovation engine,

powerful, military and intel and weapons making capability and the? U s is not. There is what is the best show in town for them, and they understand that and I think what we need to do is work as fast as we can with them to build the bridge. The ones. I tell you what will happen if If this deal is done and by the time the podcast airs, the deal could be done or could be done. Ten days later, two weeks later, you're going two things happen simultaneously, there are going to be a little bit confusing for people under the surface, the arabs will move closer to israel out of fear. Of the rise of iran, because the nuclear deal gives IRAN a glide path to a nuclear arsenal that is paved with gold. so they're gonna be frightened to death of iran and its rising power and they're going to underneath the table to Israel, but they will move above the table towards IRAN, power in the region will shift in that wait, you already seeing signs of it where the

two didn't have an ambassador for many years in iran are now sending somebody back. There's but meetings the rest, All of this stuff is happening is not that they change the view. They know exactly what this regime in tehran is. They just know tat in one. Linked in the policy. Is a kapital lay appeasement and it's not changing, and you can if the whole region fairly quickly, so I would hope the by bide administration that has over two years and its term will do it, not a new administration that comes in able to pick up these peace accords much faster than you think, with a shift in policy much faster than people. Think because this strategic moment is there, and I think it's gonna, be there probably for twenty years, a thirty years now, if iran They one thing: if you wrong goes down. if that regime goes down and you have a different relationship it'll, actually make making peace with our sunni arab states harder, but I'll take that as a problem. Let me

but to work on figuring out how to solve that problem. Is that regime in tehran that openly calls and actively words to destroy israel, What's that deal with the problem of them going down and having the iranian people actually govern themselves and have a sponsible government there. They won't be hell bent on conquering the middle east and that half the world that are very good place to end Think unless you have anything else specifically wanted to say Yes, I want to say for the record cause you when you said you said, if you sometimes you criticise your wife and she criticizes you. I never criticise my yeah yeah well, we wise man than me, then. So I appreciate you walking through that all for me and for all my watches and listeners, and I found it

dreamily, almost unbearably educational in some sense cause it's an awful lot of. Well, it's an awful lot of information to try to digest in the ninety minute period. It's right there. You just have to put that little crumb on the top with the pork and reach we're we're very close right. It's so heartening to see that this pathway forward beckons, and it's so useful so happy that I can play a small role in shedding some light on it, because it seems to me so significant and important, and much worthy of reward, and so are probably ask my people who ve been contact with you to recommend. Other people may be closer to the arab world itself that I could talk to if they would like about the abraham accords, maybe someone, I suppose what would be optimal would be someone on the saudi side in some real sense. and so we didn't get a chance to talk about iraq, and I think we'll leave that, because it's another rabbit all it would take a long time to go down, but while in somebody it's

whether iran is effectively control of iraq through the Shia militias that it has there. I will tell you one thing that I would to say in this battle between medievalism and madeira, is not a battle of tradition verses in dirt. I actually believe that debt part of the world will remain traditional for a very long time, and not only do I have no problem with that. I actually think the path to peace will go with the traditional forces, not the fanatic forces, the traditional forces in this society it is. It is interesting that man, if the people involved in the abraham records were traditional jews, we're traditional on the arab side or people on the israeli side, which is actually the only by three people in Israel who knew that the Abraham accords was about to happen. But I necessarily think that it's a coincidence, meaning the ability to deal with traditional people on the other side and not working on the assumption that the path to peace is right,

about these people abandoning their traditions and their ideal, you know, I always thought that was a mistake when it comes to promoting democracy. If you tell people choose between opera senior tradition, they'll, choose tradition, but there's no reason why they have to choose- and I think america for a good part of its history was a for example, of that which it was a very vibrant democracy and an extra, the traditional society, measured by church attendance in all these different metrics that they have. so I don't see any inherent disconnect between those two things and actually think the legitimate forces in these societies or the tradition, forces. We mention saudi arabia like to me. You want to know what sign of how close we are to historic breakthrough is when the head of the muslim world league. I can't remember his name off the top of my like a ship in saudi arabia. He visited auschwitz act of solidarity,

without mbs support. That does not happen, and he also gave they ensured that he would be given the salmon in the mass in the in the import mosque in saudi arabia before bygones visit this same shit. Now it's clean the envy. Ass is true to move his country into the twenty first century is clear it's clear that the situation with could Shogi was a point and its clear that have to have some show This is what is unacceptable, but to throw out, as I said at the time in real time, by the way and because natalia out and throw them under the bus and trumpeting throw them under the bus that was I said in real time a few days after the incident could show me. terrible, but don't throw out the prince with about for that would be a huge mistake. Don't try to prince that is confronting the islamic in his country. Changing this whole wabi fanaticism that is spreading around the world and is trying to propel his country forward decades, if not centuries. Now, if you're,

eighteen, fifty two very hard to go there. when twenty and one day I mean if he could move to the nineteenth century and a more open society that be a great gift to the region, and hopefully the region will all have free societies around us, but that can take some time. In the meantime, the forces in this region there on our side they are funding. These medieval is the one who want to take us back and so therefore they're the ones that should be supported, and it just so happens that this completely overlaps would the abraham accords with the important thing for me is for people to recognise change in the region. What enabled the potential break through so that policy makers will continue, and it wasn't look, one of the reasons why they want to avoid it is poor, we because of the politics regarding tromp, because it happened on his watch. The politics regarding you know it's on it was

the players that the Nobel prize committee wanted to be involved in it, but guess what It was the one that recognised, gruesome tromp was the one that we, ruth and the iranian tromp was, the one that took out salami right and Netanyahu did all the things that he did. These were the leaders who act. enabled us to have this breakthrough and at once thing about iran and saudi arabia, You had salman rushdie. Can I'm not I can't say that I read his books, but growing up I always saw him as like a great liberal intellectual who wanted to live in a free society and he always stood behind that. So now you have this man who's was stabbed multiple times and the outcry What happened with russia? The is nothing compared to what happened with the issue and that has everything to do with politics, meaning IRAN is trying to order. Hits on americans.

Been former national security adviser john bolted on a female democracy activists that they tried to send somebody to killer. One thing, after another. On: u s, soil, no response! Virtual silence the regime that is glorifying this one- could show me happen. How did the saudi regime response? They were embarrassed kay. So people will say what he ordered it. So they said. Ok, these people responsible, but nobody in the saudi regime was saying this was a good thing. They said this was a terrible thing in the prince was an involved, so people will believe what they want to believe. They said this is bad, the sense of shame. was tremendous that this was a terrible must end. They understood that you can't just do this openly in the modern world I'm not saying that if it would have happened that they would express regret, but because of what happened, there. A tremendous sense of shame and an issue. They issue

statements condemning it one after the other look at the hour. The iranians are dealing with rushdie. You don't have any condemnation of this guy killed rushdie they glorify. They think this is a good thing and I that tells you the difference of this regime, One regime was embarrassed about it and wants to move ahead and one regime was glorifying. It wants to take us all back and that's a real big difference in the region and I think, if we fall So our efforts on expanding the peace which implicit in is this confrontation of IRAN. We can they receive pretty good outcomes. Much faster than people think not perfect, but pray outcomes, and I think that the middle east deserves it. Israel does the arabs, and ultimately the palestinians do, because if we are able to do that, then I The chances of having those accommodation is forced to submerge are going to be much higher. Well, that's as optimistic ending as we might hope for from such a deep dive into such a complex topic, and it really is heartening to hear it and that there's

pathway forward of that sort. Hello, everyone I you to continue listening to my conversation with my guest on daily wire plus dot com