Welcome to the Jordan, be Petersen Podcast. You can support these podcast by donating to Doktor Peterson's Patria, on the link to which can be found in the description. Doktor Peterson's Self Development programmes self offering can be found itself authoring, dot com- I'm here today in Manhattan, talking to Doktor Jonathan Height, professor at an why you and I'm here for a bunch reasons. Jonathan is an extremely interesting researcher. I've been following his work on discussed in political belief for littler literally for decades and is one of the first people who started to do serious research on discussed, which is its own emotional sis.

I therefore very much worth attending to, but we also have some other interests in common Jonathan also started. This institute called the Heterodox Academy, which is attempting to bring a reasonable diversity of views, but he regards as a reasonable diversity of views to university, faculty and and campuses and discussion. So I first met Jonathan, it's gonna be just about thirty years ago. Twenty five years ago it? Isn't twenty fourteen yet went inside the ninety? Ninety four? Ninety, ninety four yeah right right so yeah? You came to do a job talk at Harvard too for an assistant, professorship position and I'd been aware of your gone discussed then, and an agitated hard for them to hire you, because I thought we was of great significance which turned out to be exactly the gay. So what do you remember about that? I remember I was so excited to have an interview at Harvard. It was my only interview. I didn't get that job. I had no job for the following year,

and it was a very strange day in which I didn't feel particularly welcome or wanted, and then I had my session with you in which he was this guy, who was, it had actually got job at Harvard and he was studying young, which is like almost taboo and he was taught my dreams, creativity, and so I just that was the really bright. That was the bright memory. The day was, our Erelong Kanzi Scare, while I was also really interested at the time man now and in the biological basis of behaviour right and so on, and in the end in the relationship between fundamental motivational systems and thought, because, obviously our thought is grounded in fundamental may motivational systems and your work on discussed, which maybe you can tell the view, little bit about was really interesting to me, because it was an emotional system that haven't means.

Need much mean you were really one of the pioneers in the in the psychological study of discuss. What were the weight of Spain? It is that Paul rosin, my adviser at PAN is the pioneer in the study of disgust and he had studied it as a food. Related emotion need written a bit about it being a moral emotion, and I was a graduate student pen and I was interested morality and I was reading the book. Above and I was reading anthropological accounts of different countries and different culture And if the time morality was all about reasoning about harm rights and justice, so Lawrence Colbert was the leading figures in the field and because I was looking at morality across cultures and when you look cross, cultures is not just about fairness and Harmon right, it's about menstruation and food taboos and skin lesions. Very physical- and I was why why do so- many societies? Why is it like the normal default.

We of being, is to somehow bring the body into morality. Why is that? So? I just happened to be a pen where the world's expert in disgust wasn't. I went to talk to him and that started one of the best collaboration of my life, and what it led to is, is a broadening of the of the moral domain. Basically, this is western secular approached you see in western philosophy. Either. Morality is about Harmon utilitarianism minimize harm, or it's about rights and principles. Manual can't and a much better way, psychologically think about morality is virtue. Ethics is just a lot of stuff. Is We have just a lot of stuff that we judge on, and this led me eventually to realise that people on the left and people on the right care about different stuff. Everybody cares about Harmon and fairness, but the stuff about keeping a boundaries around the group build a war protect the group hold them. Together, hate traders

everybody can do that, but we morality builds on no additional foundations of these additional emotions and foundations. So that work on discuss that was just beginning to talk about them when we first met. Ninety ninety four lead eventually to What we now call moral foundations theory and with might without five or six colleagues, if you go to your morals, dot org, you can take our test, you can all about it, but it led to the perspective. That, ultimately, was. I think the right perspective as the culture with heating up and has left and right we're essentially becoming like differ, countries different cultures. So so it's not obvious on first consideration? Why disgust would be immoral emotion, so no most of the work. That's done. That's outside of the Just realm, I would say, is located on the assumption that the reason that conservatives in particular, but perhaps people her moral rotarian in general,

draw boundaries around their territories because they are afraid of the other. But that isn't really that isn't really how it plays out. As far as I can tell, because Conserved is, for example, are less neurotic than treating the big five treat sense than live although it's it's a minor difference, but the discussed issue seems to be particularly relevant So can you tell us a little bit about why Gus per SE were first conservative are a little less neurotic, but they also, if you do very low level perception experiment just like a puff of white noise in the ear people react more strongly to that. Any sort of very low level threat are more likely to vote working in this country, so that there are all these interesting personality, differences that lead to different politics. Whereas for why discussed so I'm I'm a jerk jaime and I would say I love the sociology Mule Durkheim,

and I am also a social psychologist- so I'm always thinking not about people as individual utility maximizes, but people as members of social groups, people who are totally focused on belonging in their social groups and people who have some pro social motives about keeping the group together about doing things that are good for the groups. So, as I try to argue in my book, the righteous mine, yes we're selfish. There is no doubt that we often will do things to advance our own self interest at the expense of others, but were also really grouping, which means will do all sorts of things to advance. Our group, at the expense of others, basically were tribal. We evolved as a tribal species and we're doing we have all this software. I would see this all these predispositions is mental predispositions for life in in tribes that are battling other tribes, and that's. Why comes up so easily? If you look at the way boys organise themselves,

when they get a fraternity, the hazing rituals, when you look at the weight, suspect, clear and boys the waste we can organise themselves. Girls. Tribalism is a little different, but I would say this that's why? But again I love the union approach of archetypes, something it's just this weird stuff that is pan Human, even if it comes out slightly differently around the world. There really is a human nature and it comes complete with a whole bunch of like redesigned idea. So there is a new article. I think it was published in nature I'll try to find a link, for it is both a year old than that based on high resolution imaging of New Ronald connections and it's actually review Kurt cells Cresswells book how to build a mind. I think that's the name of it, and so it turns out that the cortex is made out of these key nor structures that are pre, organised units of neurons and their replicated across the entire cortex, basically the same structure and like the the older. Let's say connection. This idea was that neurons, that far

together, wire together right up, that's happened, of course that's pretty standard neurology, but the columns are already pre wired, so it's actually columns that fire together that wire together, but there's, but there's even more with the high resolution scanning. So it turns out that, underneath the cult columnar structure, there are these pre built highways that are connect connective tissue that are pre pre prepared, so they call them have the option to connect to the to the underlying highway and then that highway can connect other call em. So it's as if in employee in the brain organization- and this is at the cortical level- say nothing of sub cortical organization- there is already pre existent lie: we hope that certain neurons will fire where wire together? Yes, and what else is cool is that this is actually architecturally quite regular, so they found. The these superhighways arranged in lines and and and and in

right angles to one another. So it's almost like a three dimensional structure of wire cubes that under the neurons structure, so that some neurological evidence for the architectural idea. Let me explain explain to the viewers here why this isn't just some like psychological geek conversation, this is actually really relevant. A lot of things that that will be talking about that european public fears about, because one of the most contested ideas and social Sciences is the idea of in neatness. And yet the ideas. What if something is a neat, then it can't? It can't vary across societies, and if it varies across society, then it's not and if gender varies, if masculinity very across society, it is not an eight. It socially constructed that's the wrong understanding of maintenance. Finish in that I use comes from Gary. Marcus was actually neuroscientist here and why you, he says innate,

doesn't mean hard wives. Almost nothing interesting with hard wired innate means structured in advance of experience, but then experience can still revising and boy just that work for gender foremost, everything forgive us for almost everything that we're not a blank slate about anything the nose to tell my students it you ve taught you April. Sixteen years is, you know, everything's a social construction, masculinity, femininity cancer, the sun death, everything there's a social construction, for you won't find a society that doesn't have thoughts about these things, but the fact that societies have social constructions tells us nothing about whether there is not also an underlying biological reality and an almost all cases there, while otherwise we wouldn't be able to communicate, which is one of Eel Wilson's comments. Right when I mean Wilson is the entomologist to study. Danced Harvard and also wrote number of books about. Souci biology did got him in trouble with the radical left and he said even if we could come

gate with ants there'd, be nothing to say to each other, because their fundamental mode of being in the world is based on Moldova. Actions and interests that are so different from ours, that there wouldn't be any structure for communication, and you can detailed out with regards to the end, is that we make friends with right, where much more likely to make friends with animals who has who have a fundamental dialogue oh and social nature, that's very closed art, like dogs, because we can basically speak their language, even though not completely a mammal language of love- and I you know- I miss you and I want to play with you- that's exactly that's bonding soak it so back to discuss back you discuss so so. The fundamental thing that and from polarizing is to see us as these amazing omnivores. This is part of our survival strategy, even more than other other aims. We are just brilliant omnivores and we the omnivores dilemma, which is we ve gotta, be interested

all kinds of new stuff we're not tied twenty place. We can romantic a whole new continent, so we were interested in stuff, but stuff has all kinds of toxins, and microbes swift be careful about that stuff, and so these motive If the intention- and this is actually an interesting way to understand the left right difference you after both motives, but if it so imagine, two siblings, one of whom is set more towards trying stuff seeking out new stuff and the others. Little more fearful, immolate won't know that's in our let's not try that they stay with. What's tried and true I mean that's progressive ism and conservative next, the origins of it and if you look at kids behaviour at the age of two or three, it does predict how Volvo much later, not hugely, but there is a clear prediction there so so discussed is part of a regulatory system about gazing with the world and whether we are just sort it out there, and you know we seek out variety in diversity within diverse he's, just a great thing:

or whether we want bloom or order structure. Predictability. Conservatives, are neater, then progressives You take photos of their rooms. You know you can actually need cleanliness and organization. You can predict how they vote discussed. It turns out. What's really cool about discussed in modern politics is, if you look at all the different things that were fighting over, especially in this country, are cultural wars over you know come back if you decadent sex drugs, the flag immigration. All of these things, I study with my colleagues, was led by cynical, EVA, in which we

all these cultural war, attitudes of people- and we also had this course and discuss scale, but one of the foundations of morality is sanctity impurity and it relates to discuss what we found is tat. If you know, if you know what people's left right, we how they placed himself an elaborate scale, you can pretty much predict where they fall on most culture war additives, except for those that load on or influx sanctity or priorities. What I mean is flat burning. Ok, do you think you know? Do you think that people should have the right to burn the American flag Countries lab as an expression as a political act? What you think people to give some answer- and I want to send scale,

and people on the right thing to say no people left the s, people or score high and loyalty are more likely to say no people with lower and say yes and that's even taking account of whether on the left right dimension. But here's the cool thing. It's only. If you add in the purity or sanctity thing that really understand what people are doing, because some people see the flag not as just a piece of cloth. They see it as having some innate since some something sacred about it, which must be protected, and so so this is true, they think of it as a unifying centre. Exactly that's right! So if there's something so This is that this is the central piece of my work around politics, and morality is the psychology of sanctity. If you hold something sacred, then your team circles around it. Only those who circle around with you and sometimes literally circle around like Muslims at prayer

MECCA. They literally circle the cover circling as a very primitive ancient. It feels right to circle, something, maybe even if you put symbolically or you all bow at the same time that binds you together, children do that with their mothers when they nay and engage an exploratory behaviour right. Well, they use their mother as a centre of the world and children differ in the degree. Which they move outward from their mothers, so they move out until they they they trip over. There is uncertainty through For me it is it. Is it a distance like it's a desperate to Syria, and so so the more exploratory kids who are lower negative emotion will go out farther before they come back to their mother, so the mothers centre- and that would be associated symbolically with the idea of the centre as motherland or potentially as a father. Mother, that's right! That makes sense. So this way there,

we're we're incredibly symbolic creatures. We not just out to make as much money as we can worsen, symbolic and social creatures, and this psychology of sanctity or purity has become really important. Not just on the rights always been important was poor, especially religious conservatives were beginning to see it even on the campus laughed, and this is why I think we see some of the odd things we see on campus. That the campus must be kept as a sacred and pure space. One of the things that really alarms me about what's happened on campus less couple years, is that older idea. We had that it's a place for cod, ideas, it's it's a zone of enormous choice. People can take what course, as they want say what they want. It's kind of a wonderful free for all with some with with the norms of respect, is now becoming much more religious zone. Where the perimeter of the campus is the boundaries and within its there, almost there blasphemy laws. Basically- and I really started noticing this. When you look at this,

he knows of the Middlebury protest. When Charles Murray spoken Middlebury and as everybody knows, he was shouted down to the students are chanting and chanting in you listen and it seems like a religious revival meeting and swaying and they're, saying their sacred in a racist, sexist anti gay Charles Murray GO awaits a ritual incantation that all amnesty, the space, a safe and at sea? look? I'm not maternal you're way out yet so far off is happening. Is there finding together they're moving synchronous movement and call in response. So it is using a lot of troops from religion, religious worship, but here's the cool, when the administrator figure, who is comes onto say: ok, We have moved we're moving the talk, and then you hear a couple: people screaming up off campus off can't this and he says to another location on

campus and there's like oh, no, no, because you don't look. No one had to go to this talk, so everyone could just state. And the students did succeed in shutting down the venues they quitted declared victory, but it's not a full of victory unless he is physically off the campus. We can't have him speaking on campus because that defiles us that pollutes us, we must shut that down and that's rest icing why this is like full blown psychology Legion, Durkheim, sanctity purity blasphemy, and that I think you know that that doesn't described most is that that describes a sort of the core, those who who really have their identities wrapped up in this case, so so with disgust. I wanted to. I wanted to ask couple things about that. So you know the big five research into political differences basically shows that the liberal

hi in trade, openness and low and trade conscientiousness and the conservatives are the reverse. But we fragmented conscientiousness into orderliness end industriousness with big five aspects scale and earliness, strongly associated with disgust. So rightly said they fry right exactly does sound a lot like Freud, but it, but it also is in accordance with observations that conservatives have neither spaces, for example, so so now in their meeting start on time, yes and exactly right right. So so, then the the nexus for political belief seems to be openness so that that exploratory tendency that you talked about exploration of ideas and creativity and low orderliness So then I thought well why in the world would why would the political nexus go across those dimensions which are some? relatively uncoordinated, then I thought- and this is keeping with your work on discussed is it's an issue of borders which, of course,

seems more less self evident in the wake of trumps election when he talked about borders but you might say- and I think this is reasonable- that Conservative is someone who wants the borders in categories to remain intact, no matter what level of analysis so its borders from highest resolution level of prohibition, all the way up to the actual physical borders of of of rooms, towns, states, countries. All of that so borders should be thicker and the reason they want that. Now there was a paper published implausible I don't know if you saw it was a couple years ago, was a mind. Boggling paper should have been like front page news as far as I was concerned, and what the research did was between Cunt these and then within provinces restates within countries they correlated the level of of frequency of infectious disease with authoritarian political beliefs and found a wallop in correlation, was like point six

one of the highest by that foot. For those of you who don't know, social scientists never discover anything, that's associated with anything else. At a correlation of point, six other than irritability right others inherit ability. Yes, and so what they found was at the higher the prevalence of infectious disease, the higher the probability of of totalitarian orphan authoritarian political attitudes. And they control for governance. Because one of the questions was was this pop, the third area, is an oar bottom up. Authoritarianism, and the answer was that it was bottom up. Ok- and so I thought about that in too, from two perspectives simultaneously at that I'm case we identified, discuss sensitivity with orderliness sought for say a fundamental sub trade. And I was reading this book that was called Hitler's table talk and it was a Was the recordings are virtually everything he said at dinner from

eighteen thousand three hundred and ninety two one thousand nine hundred and forty two yeah. So it's a spontaneous utterance say and it's full of discussions about Jews and gypsies and all the people amended, but what's really interesting as all the languages disgust, it's not fear, so so Hitler's basic matter. Was that the area in race and country, a pure body and then it was assaulted by parasites. And then I remembered what happened today of Americans when the European showed up and shook hands. What happened was that ninety five percent of them are dead within fifty years right because of smallpox and measles, and so that that border issue that separates conservatives from liberals. Let's say the conservative say, the noise, who is potentially contaminated, it's not so much It's dangerous, that's different, that's fear its contaminated and the like say hold on a minute if you make the borders too thick than information can pass through. That. That's the omnivores dilemma right there, it right,

and then, since we have a biological architecture on which our cognitive platforms erect we have the same attitude towards abstract information, which would be ideas that we do two things like food or or illness, right right, We can think of an invading idea or polluting idea or contaminating idea. That's a big fan of George Lake off metaphors. We live by that we yet we use our bodily, are bodily ski Mata to think about abstract things like politics, unlike what our policy should be about borders and immigration? There's a canadian psychologist Mark Scheiler! He and his colleagues have develop what they call an account of these the behaviour and use it yeah right that we don't just try to microbes, killed, probably many more her ancestors ended, lions and tigers and bears, and so it who ever can keep themselves no children from being exposed to fatal illness.

Wins the evolutionary game, and so a lot about is judging carefully about people. Is he dangerous she dangerous and that's both for sexuality, for contact for all kinds Association so yeah a ways or emotions and our bodily interaction structure. How we think and feel about about social. Even with the black death in Europe I mean so. The black though, occurred in Europe when the European started to move around the world and they brought back rats that were infected exactly soul. So what you saw there was both of those forces at work at the same time, so the european expansion produced a tremendous interchange of ideas from all around the world: that's globalization, but it wiped out somewhere between thirty and sixty percent of the population. At the same time, would be good if, in every society or every organisation, we had some people whose specialised in the specialised in saying

hey what are the opportunities, and indeed other people, especially in saying well. But what are the risks? And it just so happens that a lot of people have trouble doing all that in themselves when we have systems that are well constituted with people who have different personalities in there, motive and goals. We actually can get better outcome. We can have a discussion between them yeah. Well, that's exactly! Why that it's! It's for that precise reason that that I've been so interested in free speech as as as Are you because, or even on the economic front? It's pretty obvious. If you look at things economically that the entrepreneur type start. Businesses are lumped in with the liberal creative types. We ve done a lot of work on the prediction of entrepreneurial behaviour and mobility and its openness. That's the big predicted the only ones, openness and I q, fundamentally for managerial and administrative expertise, its oh, it's iq and content business, so the liberal start businesses and Anne, but they can't run them because their there, their interests

flip and they don't have the organizational ability and the conservatives can run them, but they can continue to transport expand, yearning, Yang, Yearning Yang here, so so one more thing about what happened in Nazi Germany that that's very relevant and interesting because its useful to get these motives right. You know, first of all, as if somehow disgusts you if something, if you're afraid something. Then you run away from it or you frites. But if something disgusts you you try to burn it or dick or kill it right. You try it get rid of or its spell it. That's that's right, don't you you want to get it away and destroy it. What so, when Hitler first came to power p, putting up a bunch of public health schemes like he advanced that went around screen people for tuberculosis, then he went on a factory cleanliness campaign, so the factories

was to be tidied up and he washed he bathed about four times a day. By the way, it was also a great worshipper of willpower which is associated with orderliness and seems maybe to be associated with disgust sensitivity in some way that isn't yet understood. Yeah yeah, I dont I understand that connection either, so they he convinced, donors in Germany to get rats in my mice, in the end, the insects in the factories and also to clean them up and beautify them. But the ghastly is to clean up the factories recycle on eight and it was the variation of that gas cycle and b that was then used in yeah. So you could see this ramping up, so it was yeah absolutely so it was look health. Then it was so cleanliness. Then he went into the asylums, clean them up and so was just expansion of of who was contaminated and who was impure, and I think also, fascination with fire and his use of fire. Symbolism was also

seated with that, without appeal to purification, because the old idea of purity nation by fires, a very ancient idea, so ok, so so how Your work on discussed changed the way. That you look at things, funds for many gave some indication of that already, but what else has changed? So since I was coming out of a psychological literature that was very focused on on through a secular, secular ethics, about justice and fairness, and then I began stating discussed and looking at the broader moral domain that almost all societies have. That then also lead me to think about locate, discussed as a reaction to things that seem to be degrading so at an interesting element of discusses this notion of degradation that they're always he's vertical metaphors. I must discuss, brings us down and and discussed so lot of. Some religious pray

This in and Judaism and Islam and and Hindu as it is about preparing your body to approach God and purification, and so that led me to think well, if there's, an emotion which is about seem are lower baser animal biological nature is there an opposite. Emotion is an emotion of that. We feel we see some manifestation of higher nobler nature, and I was just begin to think this. When I moved to uv, I got my first job. Regional nineteen. Eighty five and I read the set of Thomas Jefferson letters and in one letter he describes he describes the feelings you get from reading great fiction. He advises a cousin of his that he should, by fiction for his library, not just penal, serious works of law in philosophy, and he described he says it doesnt. He describes the feeling of of of having your sentiments be elevated. Does it not dilate your breast giving an open feeling in your chest?

when you see these acts of beauty and kindness and gratitude? I thought wow, that's exactly yet, and so, because I ve been studying, discussed again started, studying its opposite, which I and some others called moral elevation. So this is kind of vertical metaphor elevation and degradation and ass naps onto the body to with regard to hide this high low, clean dirty, and yet this is a beautiful pairing and so having this language of elevation and discussed. Just really help me see a lot of things like this. A lot of things happening. It allows me to like even. Any political, I'm fine for grant propose alike and a very good at like having

elevating ending at the outset to end with a Panada uplift, and so it has brought it. It just broadened by thinking about morality, and this was where ninety ninety five and so again it is prepared me there, and I don't even to India by that point. I spent three months during researching in Orissa Eastern India, so it has brought in my thinking and that's what allowed me. Finally.

You understand, conservatives because I had always been on the left. I hated Ronald Reagan. I thought Republicans were stupid and evil and was only when I go to India and really try to understand a traditional religious, hierarchical, gender stratified society. Try to understand it in their terminate in trying to bring in my own, my own western left in a left, leaning perspectives that I was and it this was all under the guise of Richard Schwaiger. My post Oxford proviso. Athena precision cargo, where did a postal, was only then that I was able to Sicily to get inside their minds in their moral system and see that there were all turned of moral worlds. The each have their own logic, and that was the metaphor. I came to you at the time the matrix we're very popular so the metaphor, the matrix as a consensual, loose nation made. A lot of sense is reckoned up at the idea of just speak moral matrices, whichever different measures that are grounded in biology,

biology and says that gives us the potential to set the building blocks of this matrix. Can't we just anything becomes it comes from. Our experiences are embodied experiences and again, George lay off his is the master of of that. Thinking, and so it was only then that that I was able to now listen to conservative, talk, radio and christian religious rate, oh and see, rather than just hang out, I was stupid. Terrible people- oh wow yeah, I can see that are striving for certain birthright rates, He started to understand their metaphorical language, essential s right, and that was like come like making great awakening scales falling from my eyes, but you know since, but it took a few more. It took a number of years, but eventually I kind of just like hold out the implants from my eyes, and I stop seeing everything swept through a partisan land and I'm not on any side. Now, I'm just trying to understand what the hell! Well, it's really useful. It's really useful to understand that there are actual reasons why people see the world differently and that you.

Can't just easily say that one is right in the other is wrong, because the liberals are correct when it comes to borders that a few thickened them too much diminish the information flow. You risk making the society so static that any radical environmental terms mission will sink it. It's the case, but the conservatives are right in that you pay a big price with regards to newcomers and new information with regards to risk to exposure to contaminating, while to condemn nation period, but also to contaminating ideas, and so then I've always thought nobody environment itself, moves back and forth like a snake in some sense, and what we're trying to do stay on the centre of its back. And the only way we can do, that is by people my having people poor to the right and say be careful and people polled left and say. Well, you have to be open with that dialogue and the the exchange of information that that dialogue allows. We can maybe specified the centre of that moving target and stay and stay while its

on the back? What yeah? Ok, that's really complicated metaphor with the snake, but I think it's it's a perfect way in two. What's going on campus and to wipe your point of view so important that I agree with exactly with what you just said, and so what I the view that I've come to unsteady moral psychology is that we at humans are ultra social apes. We we have, to live in these small groups that are fighting with each other. We evolved to have these low level animistic religions that our steady state that we were for these two hundred thousand years are much more progress where millions

form, so that sort of our design. That's what we're designed for your sense and in that sense, work as individuals really kind of stupid, tribal creatures designed to do post, hop reasoning, but if you put together in the right way with the right checks with the right, the right systems, the the whole vastly smarter than the components that go into it, which is true of the brain to the brains composed of neurons. Each neurons believe stupid little switch. But you're putting together the right way and you get something really brilliant and the same way I don't know about the history here, but my understanding is that science begins or the culture of science. The scientific revolution begins in Europe in the Seventeenth century, as you begin getting, you get the printing press, so people can share their ideas, but you get communities of people who are challenging each others, ideas and that's what makes it so really is that

is that people have to do their best. We're really bad at this confirming our own ideas. It's very hard to make it very hard to do that when you ideas out there and then everyone is motivated to challenge them, and so, if you put us too in the right way the truth comes out and so address rail systems of law, journalist noticed you have to listen to both sides. Scientists know this social site. You should know this. Ok, what happened? Well, the academy has has always leaned left in the twentieth century, but leanings the problem, so people thinking viewpoint, diversity, we need, we need everybody, we need Nazis, we need every bit. No, we don't need everybody. What we need is no orthodoxy, that's what's fatal orthodoxy. So if you have, you have filled with sociology or social psychology in which its two or three two one left or right. That's totally! Fine with me. That's totally fine, because if someone make some

That's just like ideologically blind someone will say you know commonsense other evidence, you ve missed, and then the system works but What what I learned when I started down this road and twenty eleven, I gave a talk at the big conferences, social psychologists. They gave a talk about this problem that we're losing our diversity that I could only find one conservative, an entire field leave it on this and and. So what I ve learned since then, is that the ratio in psychology was between two to one and forty one left right all the way up to the early nineties we ve gathered together all the states we could find at all to the early ninetys. It's only three, forty one left or right wing. Ok, but then between ninety ninety five before and twenty ten, it goes to a fortune What did you have any idea? Why and why that time? Yes, so,

you get the same story, whether you look at Republican Democrat ratios or liberal conservative there. They tell the same story so there to the big things going on. There are one. Is that the greatest generation which had a lot of reports, begins so lot of men go after world war to dig up there on the g I bill. They entered the academy in the nineteen fifties. Lot of them are conservative or republican, so you have a lot of them, but in the Sixtys and Seventys one of the main reasons to go to grad school in the Social Sciences, either a disdain school to escape the Vietnam WAR Draft or be to fight for social justice and against racism. So in Socio Jean psychology in particular political sides- maybe I'm not sure you get a huge influx of left, leaning people who are there to pursue

full justice so near the motives are fine and if it was bound to be totally fine, but as you get these young junior people on the left coming in the seventies and eighties, and then you get the older people that are more politically balanced retiring in the Eightys and Ninetys. By the time we get to delete nineties, it's all he bombers, and so do you get up? Do you get a positive feedback? Loop, developing an air like you said it s like three, two one: it's ok, but maybe one its forty one goes to like twenty two one and used it exactly so you then so then you start getting hostile climb so. I wrote a review paper on this with with Joe Duarte and feel TAT, Larkin, Lee Justin, Jack, Crawford and. He was so we're viewed everything that we can find. We concluded that most of what's going on is self selection. That is people on the left.

More experienced always yet I'm gonna get some selection, but then there's really good evidence that there's also hostile climate. I mean it's its undeniable now that if you are not on the left in a grand programme, there's just constant little subtle, we're not so subtle. I trust that you don't belong and looking academy were all about saying, hey, If there are subtle, hints here and there you can't succeed right, I mean that's what we do for a living as we say that little things will stop people. Well little things are put in the way of anyone who doesn't fit politically, and so you do get Hossack climate you do get over. Discrimination is evidence of that, and then there is also it is partly story here that

means to be a conservative in the nineties and especially two thousand has changed. So it is true that that that the consumer will not in any way anti science until much more recent times now. Actually all sides are anti science about different sciences bought in America. The the right wing, the Republican Party, had its controversial, but I do believe that the poorest it starts with the right moving further out, so what it means to be concerned to be anti anti evolutionary, which is actually what's happening on the left now to exact. That's yes, so well as modern talk to bread, Weinstein's the other day- and you know he won, his claims- is that Evolutionary biology has something in it to offend everyone, so it is it's a science, that's very likely to be targeted by extremists. You also brought up something that actually she's on the ice on the difficult problem of how Is that you might define someone who's ideologically possessed, let's say or logically rigid?

because the idea was that you make a valid case for the utility of free information flow and the free flow of people that would go along with that and you can make a good case for the danger of that and so the idea might be that if you are only making a case for the danger of that, then you're tilted too far to them. And if you are only making a case for the utility of that then you're tilted too far to the last. Exactly that's right. We can look at immigration as an ice example. There is a recent essay, the Atlantic. I think it was by Peter buying ART where he, He reviews he starts with a lot of quotes that are pre nuanced positions that immigration from Barack Obama Paul, Krugman bunch. Whether people on the list who used to be to say: on the one hand, you no compassion economic. On the other hand, you know we have to have legal process and there is a threat to low wage workers. So people on the left used to talk about immigration and talk about the pros and cons thrust his minuses, but by not shows how, in the last four or five years,

can't if you so much as suggested, were maybe immigration- on net good, might have some deleterious effect on certain classes of of low wage Merrick workers. You could get big trouble. Rick is that's it. Thirdly, prejudicial you now, because immigration is becoming a sacred topic. So this is the key thing, but I want everyone to keep in mind. We are fundamentally religious creatures were built for religion and it's a great achievement to create a scientific establishment in an echo. The academic establishing that keeps that way of thinking out. Scientific thinking is not natural thinking. Religious thinking is natural thinking and what's happening to us in the last few years, especially, is flooding in religious thinking, and so let's get a bunch of social scientists talk about immigration. What are we going to do? Look at the data weigh up the pluses and minuses, no they're going to many them feel there on a team, and that team is fine

The right the right as anti immigrant includes racist elements. Therefore, that justifies us in being pro immigration and social Sciences always is always ambiguity, there's always conflicting snows yonder mould. We'll causal factors that always in this alongside study. That's right so binary point was that the left used to be able to think straight about immigration, clearly ahead of Jemmy Pro immigration, but it used to build a think straight. But in the last few years a religious orthodox mindset has overtaken ok, so we might as well also point out that it's a primordial religious mindset right because

mean there are yet I don't mean christian or jewish. I mean ancient tribal small scale, Lhasa, God right right. Well, so then, one of the things that you might suggest is that when you throw out a sophisticated religious structure in unsophisticated risk, legit structure comes in to fill the gap. Ideas of extra ok. So that's definitely worth thinking about. So that's so this had to think of it, but with religions we have to clarify fundamentalism is the problem, not religion, and so, if you close, I'm tribalism, that's right if you get a fundamentalist, I am happy to say- and if your people applying to grab programme in psychology- and I find out that their christian- that's fine, problem, but if their fundamentalist Christian, I would thank all stateless if not the cops Buzz is its geology,

So someone applies to geology programme. There are fundamentalist young worth creation IST, are you gotta admit them? Now? I don't think you should there not able to do. The right kind of thinking based What we know to be the case that there are no scientific parents are not a cent, have that's right, so so, if we would admit a fundamentalist Christian to a geology programme. Why would we admit someone who is just as fundamentalist about certain moral and political issues into a sociology programme which was psychology program if they I'm in knowing what the right answer is committed to that right. Answer. Likely to get angry at anyone who contravene that right. Answer and and showing signs of clothes minded, I don't think they belong to gradually. I guess the question is how in the world do set up mechanism, to ensure that you're not swamped by funding

lists of any sort of those people who are reducing everything to a single cause at something like that. How can you implement a structure that protects the organization against that. Without the structure itself becoming too Terry, and no it because these things, these things spin out of control so fast year. But so I think what we have to realise in the academy is that we face. I think we face an existential crisis. We rely in enormous amount on public good will we get enormous tax subsidies, direct research support? and recent pulling shows that, while Democrats have always had a high opinion of the universities and Republicans, till two years ago, everybody thought universities are a good thing. They make life better, so Americans been very supportive of higher occasion they ve been rising grapes on the right, but it's only between twenty fifteen and twenty seventeen that now Republicans go from saying more the universe is a good things into.

They go way down state university or bad things there making things worse. Now, how is this news greeted it's on the left or say: oh, those Republicans are so anti science. Look how and they are they now hate universities come on anybody has been watching the news. Anybody seen them Hobbs to shout down the illiberal behaviour If you like you, know, Americans the right and left are really supportive of the military. We have of it when a few institutions that we still hold in high esteem on both sides and so the Republicans more than Democrats, so suppose, A gala Poland, I showing republican like the military, more than Democrats both really like it. Then. Suddenly in twenty fifteen, we started seeing video from all of military bases, the military academies in which that military leaders are certainly right. Wing they're, they're, they're, saying terrible things about left is in progress.

Gives and the men and the cadets and everybody is mopping, the occasional liberal hidden in a really despicable, scaring intimidating way. What do you think the left would now think about the military obviously support the military would plummet nothin american universities, we are losing the support of half the country this on sustainable, especially in red states, where they control the purse strings? So I think we have a major crisis. I think we ve got to go into crisis mode. We ve got a clean up our act. So just as we're doing in psychology with replication project, we reckon there are methods warrant good enough and we don't crash course. To brain knows it and others: the open science project, We are really trying to improve our game. Thank God we need to. I think we have to do the exact same thing about partisanship, and our and our duty case, or let's talk about Heterodox Academy, because you said that up this organization that you should tell everybody about in in precise we deal with this issue and so I'd like

to know about about how its growing, what it's doing, what your aims are. All of that. So I gave this talk when eleven laying out the fact that we have no more conservative and social life, oh and why this makes it hard for us to find truth and in the months after that. A few social psychologists resonate with ass if they had wow. I think I think you're right. I'm data on this, so the five of us six of us. This paper came out and be able in brain sciences. Oh sure, a lot of stuff. I'm sorry was this. Sixth, one that I forgot to adding before we got this paper published behaving been sciences It came out. It was one of online twenty fourteen, but it came out for good in the summer twenty fifteen Coincidentally, was the same summer that my article came out with great, with Yon off of calling the american mind that was bout things gonna with undergrad, but our concern was entirely faculty- was just the nature of the academic community, the research community, so that these two things going on summer time,

Fifteen and then that summer I hear from two Nick rose and creates a law professor who says we have the same problem: everybody worse in law. What is bad Canada and locate because, as he points out we're train, all these students they never meet a conservative and they have to go argue cases in front a judge's half of whom were appointed by republic and they have no idea what a conservative thinks. This is malpractice without a trained. So so, MRS geologists. Chris Martin same thing sociology so three of us said: hey, you know, this is a big problem for the whole. Have you looked at fact of education. Oh, my ass, those are the worst, my worst I don't know the numbers, but in terms of their vindictiveness, that the increase the pressure put on any non conforming opinion My impression on data, but my impression from the letters I get is that education, schools and social exclusion

the work that's exactly in keeping with my. My understanding is well it's hard to tell which of those two, our worst, I would say it's the faculties of education, because they have a direct pipeline to kids. I went over there that is far pernicious, yes, but but equally equally warped, let's say, but but pernicious and and the things that are happening in the canadian education system. As a consequence of that are so reprimand I wish them because is happening here too. With these ideas, pelted go to high school, I've been so focused on college. Now we're discovering the problem is actually baked in the illiberal attitudes are often baked in by the time. Yes and purposefully like in in Canada, increasingly, the the the radical left us have control over curriculum. Development in their starting to develop social justice curriculums, which is what they call them for four kindergarten. Kid so it's only those fishermen who are having to get back to the early rates so at South integration, three of us decide

a website. I invited all the other authors from the baby s paper. We invite. If you are the people working on this, and so for the first year, we have this project was called Heterodox academy, dot. Org we put the site up on about September tenth. I think it was a twenty fifteen and it was just a community of researchers who are studying the problem of the lack of your point diversity. Well, five days later, the protest start at Missouri. So these are our racially motivated protest or protests about racial insensitivity and racial problems. It Missouri and a first. It seemed like the suggested Missouri proper coming in the wake, of course, of of Ferguson all the videos we saw of of unarmed black men being killed by police that the latter is concerned spread to other universities. The protests aren't just about race, but it was that for twenty fifth teen, especially the Yale protest.

When the president of Yale validates their narrative, that yields are racist place, we have to reform Yale, then it spreads nationally. Now, suddenly, this is not just a faculty issue anymore. So, even though tariffs Academy mostly focus on the faculty, we now seen its complex ecosystem with all kinds of forces acting on universities, so that between twenty fifteen and twenty seventeen, the danger of speaking honestly that what you think academic intellectual proposition has skyrocketed the risk of being mobbed ostracised. Formally investigated by title ninety four nine people were, we're sitting here, then, why you go to any bathroom hushed up. So you are on this floor. Go to any bathroom. This sign telling students exactly what number to call to report. You were me if we say something that is that so it takes to be wise act also. You have biased view a biased investigation teams. Here, that's right, so we haven't got to that point in that particular point in Canada. Yet

I think, we're farther ahead down that path in some ways. But quite as far and others here, that's really that's really unbelievable things are changing. Very very fast is not at all schools, but then again, things are changing so fast, wouldn't really now we have good data on what's going on. What I can tell you, though, is that Heterodox academy. When we start out in twenty fifteen, there was a lot of suspicion lot of people on the left afraid, like always this some right wing group very few of us- are actually on the right, but because we end up mostly speaking up for libertarians and conservatives who are attacked or silenced, people will think we must be right wing, but we're not I mean I'm never voted Republican. My life, I've, never moneyed republican campaign. I'm now increasingly call myself a liberal now that we see illiberal is flourishing. But some we started out. There was a lot of suspicion of us from many professors, but now it is clear that the problems- these are not just a few anecdotes. This is done.

Normal and it's not just in the universities, as you pointed out, that's right! It's getting ready it like writing ad, and it's not just in the. U s it spread went in twenty fifteen. I thought it was a uniquely american, probably a voyage, and and then the UK and is really where it is even a right. It is a uniquely anglo sphere problem. This is really interesting. It's not on the continent very much. What about in the nordic countries? No immediate, so political correctness! You have lots of places. The unique thing that identifies this new culture is linking the political correctness. The sense of fragility? And this is something America's pioneered the idea that so that in Britain have always had no platform, they call it. So if there's an end, there was an effort- British National Party, some actual fascist Party, UNICEF. If a BNP members going to speak on campus mob him, you shut it down. No plaque dump him a platform. So you know you ve had passionate politics, certainly since the sixty. So that's not

and that's everywhere. What's new is the american idea that if someone says something- and it could be a sincerely expressed idea, not a racist rent, just like why I think that maybe hormones do if that gendered behaviour. Can you say that well what if someone takes that as as somehow essential, rising and then seeing that women are inferior whatever if they know, without happened to James Timor, for exactly exactly so. So that's what's new. Is the idea that if someone says something that someone, a member of a protected or marginalized group is offended by that person is armed if a person's harmed, we must protect that person and more ominously, just in the last year or two such as at their harm. Their suffering is that this was violinists rate.

Violence will that's part of the postmodern narratives that and this resulting to policies so dangerous that the crossing the line into into violence, it just occurred to me just like yes, I was thinking about this. We this d, his must have a monopoly on violence right, but if beach, especially his speech in her speech in the people, the speech of those people in that academic movement or on that, if their species violence will the status must have a monopoly on their speech then, and in it violence. Well, then, we have a right to use violence back the state monopoly on our violence, because our balances more motivated. So just did the orwellian and authoritarian implications of this move. Once you say that speeches, violence, you're, unlocking your opening pandora's box, Amir, your five steps down the road to hell and I'd we're about seven steps. You ok, you so you're you're that concerned about it. Ok, No tell me, how many members is to you don't have to discuss

we have this, obviously, but how many members of Heterodox Academy Arthur. Now we have thirteen hundred members, so once we opened up its originally was just for researchers who are studying this problem, but we have lots of people to join, and so we say: ok, why not, and so we just separate if as long as you're professor, that is you have, it hd you're living more or less the life of a professor. You have university filiation, so we now take adjuncts if they have a phd. We take post docs, basically, if you're in the guild, if you're living the life of a professor and you are concerned about the rise of intimidation. Frankly, if your concern that are wonderful institution. I love I love being a professor lobbying. I feel like it's not just losing public respect its losing its ability to two functions: losing its ability to teach and do research on.

Politicize topics elder more politicized topics, all the time. That's that's right, as there are few in the natural science is not many, but there are some of the natural sciences as well anyway, Point is when our growing very rapidly and something very excited by is, since we start having more violence on campus with beginning with burthen Middlebury we're seeing a pervasive sense among people on the left that there really is a problem here that something has to be done, and so we are finding much more acceptance now from professors on the left. So I like to think about there's too the bureau laughed, you houses the great majority and there's the illiberal left. We did a factor, analysis of politically correct beliefs and found exactly that and at the end of the year the left was also high in orderliness absence has or a terrier exactly predisposition, and also a kind of markedly decline, was also characterized by a market lack of verbal,

intelligence that year was relief? Was about point four when that beautiful, that's beautiful, because the simplest formulations, I've heard about the great formulation from Mark Lilla so Mark Willow. This point has to operate in Europe Times week. After trumpets, lected, saying identity, politics is a really foolish thing to do. It pushes lots of people over the Trump side. If energy politics is part, the problem. Well, he writes hotbed and one of his fellow professors, Colombia. I forget how she doesn't, but she basically says something about the other. The mask with I hold false from his face like you, the coup. Cooks, clan or something like that and so Lilla Willa, who isn't human beings is an intellectual historian. Little has the simple formulation. He says that's a slur, not an argument, and once they have that simple formulation wow, that's almost all the push back I've ever Its somehow you don't owe you know your winking at night

are you? Are you asking me over and over? I was just my name was just poster. Is that when you get the intimidation, so so this is really key. We're supposed to be all about. You can say anything you want, you can make anything you want if you can support it, if you can back with reasons, this is critical thinking. This is what we those between our students to do, and it is not only that you can say anything, but you can say it. Boundary on that which, especially if you're, a scientist less so in the humanities, but if you're assigned The things you say have to be visited by people who are going to be critical of the right, so so nano not only has a new Zealand, those rights is accountability built into it. That's right, so I did me and say no, no noise is ran, I mean you can put with any idea you want, if you can back it up. What we're seeing with anything politicize is not about backing Students are learning rhetorical techniques, to link their enemies to some

racist. Well, somebody contemptible sometimes have they got to get that you bet it and that in that and the old and other things that are not only worthy of being destroyed, but that you have a moral duty to destroy exactly so. That's right. That's almost like immune system, I'm here I was actually works, but there's some selvas tags, a cell, as you know, enemy enemy and once that tad was put on the cell, that attracts other I fear that what kind of Celtic near my bit, so we shall look into this metaphorically means yeah, because once they at once you're labelled as a racist, We have to read you. Did it doesn't matter what you actually say you will now be. What is also too that once your label that way, if someone defends you, the label is contagious. Rights are dynamic and urgent, how we know where, in this super religious territory of witch hunts, that if you stand up for someone you are tat and then you

Maude right and not by their second, my sees that the net with so much cowardice on campus among both students and faculty people are afraid to stand up, even if the majority think that, what's going on his nuts or is unfair, there are free to stand up and that's in part due to social media, because it's just me, students today have been raised with various platforms that make it easy for people to join in attacks someone they look at who, like, what's so. If, in an article we just saw on Red- a bit of a counter revolution and read the students had to get together somehow and decide. Should I like that post have we all like at the same time, Remo get unless trouble Listen to what degree, so, let's go but the aims of the Heterodox academy, so you brought people together who are in principle into today in a diversity of opinions and but but in what manner is that going to be utilised to two too? I don't want to use the word combat, but two,

but to deal with this emerging problem, a video logical in the universe. Yes, so to useful concept. Here, one is the emperor's new clothes. We all know that story. Even if most people, even if everybody sees this, is nuts the empress, walk round, no clothes they're, afraid to say it until one point So this is also the ash experiment. Everybody as if that lines the same as that line is obviously not true. If one person says the truth, then nobody conforms after that. So the mere presence of a group of people who say you know what we actually need: a diversity of opinions and the fact that on our site will publishing so sometimes when professors Armagnac when Brett wanting you know was mobbed in so I wrote an essay that stood up for him.

I will get it for some of us. It's happened so fast. I can't keep up. I can't I've got bookstore at night. You know every week there's some new member was getting mob and so we're gonna development of a team of people who write, but just knowing that there are people who will stand up for you, knowing that there are people who will say, wait. A second: this is not what we do in the economy. That's one thing: we should stand up for each other too, as we develop products that we think can basically fix the situation. So one of our products is called the campus expression survey. It's a survey designed to actually measure who is afraid of speaking about what topics and why? What are they? Freedom and it turns out everyone- the students more than the faculty, they're afraid of mostly to talk about what about the administrators errands afraid of students. Their freedom is also, Why don't you don't? Have we not silly them? I've only surveyed students, I dont, ok, but from what we hear people are afraid of of the student.

Without yours, hauling and in its own manner like it, was a real your leader where that's for sure they let those kids come into the classroom, the actual costs. And disrupt a class on an ongoing basis. Been yes- and I couldn't understand that exactly I mean my research that would be first, I would tell them to leave. Second, I would call campus security. If something wasn't done about it, I just wouldn't teach the class so I dont understand like it. It seems to me: It is also up to individual professors to draw a line, which is that, if you're being intimidated dated by students, why do you Why do you show up and teach the class I dont understand. So again, people are afraid to stand up if it means that people will call

Racist Cabot guy I'm units which, weird in that situation, opiates visits carried to you, also a further to go to your class. As you know, one and there's a much more proximate threat there. That's what I mean that's what I'm most alarmed by is the rise of intimidation. Intimidation is now a factor in many aspects of academic life, and that's just terrible. It's completely incompatible with what we do and we are what's especially its especially appalling, given that whatever happens in the university campuses, you know like one of the questions raised in Canada is well. Why should we care about? What's up money in the in the ayatollahs you're gonna higher these people next year, you will hear: will there it's the heart like what's happening, Emphasis is going to happen in society in five years if it were not doped. It's only happens. This second important point I just gave a talk at

a big law from here in New York, where there are very devoted to diversity, but they're doing it right. There really thinking about diversity, wise diversity, good and save a whole month on viewpoint, diversity which is spent ass it, and what I'm learning from talking to a number of people the business world is that in the last year there are now all these press. Where's, our leaders to endorse this- condemn that scientists open letter was entering into human resources. That's right! That's right, but it's the same! Dynamically have on campus and the answer so if anybody anybody watching here, if you run a business, if you have friends when business, I think the only the the there only to stable equilibria one is that every organisation is just either all right wing raw left wing, but that would be disastrous you so either you just say: ok we're on one side, no one terrible! The other is what we call the Chicago principles of free expression. Universes Chicago has the best statement out there on how the university provides a play

form on which multiple use can contest the university does not take any one side. That's the only other stable alternative, and I think leaders need to do this in business at certain universities, so we're encouraging every university to adopt the Chicago principles, because a lot of what mass action is an attempt to compel the authority to come in on you side and punish you're an yes, and so that has to focus all how. How effectively is the Chicago statement on on how they if, as the Chicago statement being disseminated, how rapidly our universities signing up or or there

You signed on early in this whole crisis, her due to about ten or fifteen that have endorsed it or something like it. It's not enough to just endorse something, but if you have leadership is committed to creating an open platform in which people can disagree and what has very encouraging I've been invited by a number of university presence to come speak. We have all kinds of innovation that Iraq's academy to foster a more inclusive climate which people can actually have to engage with difference, there's a lot of interest, so I think the university leaders. We're very slow to react. They didn't want to alienate certain factions, have students but they're. Almost all reasonable people are almost all liberal left, not illiberal their horrified. By what's going on, they know they're sitting a top a powder keg. They dont want things to block interface, as happened at Evergreen. So this brings us to r r r

the product, the one that were most excited by, so we just went on line. Actually today it's called the open mind platform. If you go to open mind platform dock work, you can and we ve developed an app. We have a whole library of readings and videos who drove an app that guides you through. We, don't you say, here's having gauge with different viewpoint. We start by saying. Why is a good day for kissed? You need this. Everybody needs this and to remind people that were all basically self righteous hypocrites we have quotes from wisdom, traditions around the world and we ve all heard so just a little bit of you know you can call it emotional manipulation if you like, but just get people into a mindset in which there will say. Oh yeah won't come down we're all wrong unto self righteous here and with their mutations

ecology about motivator reasoning, and only then do we teach them to engage with views that are not their own. So We ve already run this in about that fifteen or twenty classes, the results so far, the promising that, at the end of it, the measures show that students from more open to other ideas. So the open. My platform to think is a tool that we think a lot. Universities are going to adopt. There is a lot of interest in it. If there's leadership, if the professor is generally do support. You point diversity in open inquiry if we change freshmen orientation so that students are trained first and foremost in how to step back, give people the benefit of the doubt. The open, We do that first, that that's like behavioral exposure to some degree right there. It would be that if you're, if you're, afraid or disgusted vice in that you don't understand the appropriate first treatment. First of all the time.

It is necessary because otherwise, your you'll isolate yourself in the ways that you already described and, second, that brief exposure, voluntary exposure is going to be the best curative Nevertheless, the opposite of the safe space I examined need to be better safe space. To save space idea is the worst thing you could possibly do for the very people who today are exactly exactly mini psychology. What you know psychology behind staves bases in micro? Aggression is just the exact opposite of what we should be doing. If we want to create kids, especially lack kids, gay kids, we mean whatever, if you that they are vulnerable to more stigma, more conflict, if you they are vulnerable at, especially when a safe space will be temporarily pleasant, but in the long run back right and that's the critical issue too. With regards to save spaces

There are sacrificing the medium and long term of the students, well being, let's say to the short term, lack of fear and conflict, their infant idolizing and essentially so, ok, so All right, so I was thinking about the the discussion idea. I've got a personality test online. Now, that's based on this big five aspects scale, but the interesting as something for us to think about to define people. Were high and openness and low and conscience, MR orderliness and offer them the opera unity to engage in dialogue with people who have the opposite personality traits, because while well, because they're gonna run into people like that, always right in and and and maybe even establish a relationship with them inadvertently and being able to tolerate that might give them the kind of issue you said you develop when you realise that the conservative ethos was based on a reasonable but not complete, set of of,

beneficial axiomatic presuppositions so all right, This is pretty much taken over your life. This Heterodox academy, as well as the writing now you're writing a couple of new books. I understand so so, So I was in the so called you department at University, Virginia fur for seventeen years and where my book, the righteous mind, was coming out. I wanted to move to New York City for years. I can do promotional work for it and I just had my second child was just born. I knew it would be hard to flip Charlottesville, so I just happen to get a position temporary position here at stern at the business school and when I first arrived, I wasn't that interested in business, but as soon as I got here occupy war Reed happened and suddenly was like everyone's talking about morality and politics and capitalism and business. And then I started learning the history. Capitalism. I knew nothing about. It was fascinating started. Seeing how free enterprise and free markets have helped raised wait raise living standards around the world,

radical, the poverty that, in staggeringly rapid fashion, that's completely unprecedented, especially since the year two thousand, that's right so sent so You know here I was fourteen years old discovering I knew nothing about. It was like my first one of evolution like while this explains like everything in the natural world and learning about capitalism. Business explained everything about the built world and the end of the world that we, we live in and there was also all these business scandals. This was twenty led in the wake of the financial crisis, and I saw huge opening to begin applying moral psychology to help corporations have better ethics. So I did everything I do isn't involves applying moral psychology to help complex systems work better. So I ve been focused on political polarisation and governance for years.

Where then, and that led to the righteous mine, and then I got here to stern, they offered me a job during the first year. I took it and has been fantastic, really exciting. It's like a whole new economic. I've been that grad school hold on to new things to learn must be a kind of a shock existential shop to be in a business school in some sense. Now it's not it's not a shock. I mean it's a different culture, its much more open in the sense that it so diverse, like the things people are doing, there's not like away that. We do things here and is much more open to applied projects to actually do applied projects here, and so is a perfect time from it. I just you know the righteous might like that pops up like the first half of my career, like everything I did is in that book and now it's time for something new in that new thing was going to be like how morality or most psychology both underlines or or or is the foundation for

ability to do capitalism, contracts, reciprocity, all sorts of things and how our left right divide from the righteous mind, makes it hard for us to figure out what's true like if you raise the minimum wage that help or hurt the working poor right. If you an economist on the left, obviously helps them. You can kind of snow right. It obviously hurts them because you are than have jobs and you can gerrymander the measurements devices to exact, reduce the conclusions that you want, which is a big problem, so explicitly. Writing a book called three stories that capitalism, the moral psychology of economical And so I started travelling around the world looking at how development is going in various countries, I did a three month trip to Asia and twenty fifteen. I came back from Asia. My article came out with looking on off the column american mind the baby S. Heart was published a hurricane I'll get back to this. He bent his capitalism

and then the universities can begin melting down in the fall, and then we started Iraq's academy, and so yes, it has taken over my life. It's basically full time job. In addition to try to write the most work number so looking on. If I didn't want to turn our article into as we thought we'd said everything, but man had things can happen. We ve learned so much more since we wrote that article and you know How long will the road it in late, two thousand and fourteen, and then we headed in early two thousand and fifteen, and it finally came out in August two thousand and fifteen and so in our last October, Gregg wrote to me and said John. I think I do want to turn the article into a book because we know so much more now promised so much more serious than it was any evidence. I got the evidence about mental, the mental health crisis of adolescence. When Gregg me, what the article we weren't, you note, we saw lotta hints that depression and anxiety would go away, and we think that's really

to the the overprotection you're talking summit. Let's talk about that just for second mineral back to the book, so I've gotta get potential demographic explanation for that in part. Well, and I dont know, if you I have looked into this are not well there. There's there's two things that I think might be contributing to it. One is two or three things: one is the average age at which children are the average age at which people have children's gone way up cases for that matter. Well, because I think people get more conservative and cautious as they get older a little bit that true, but the very small effect. Ok, wait, a second ok, it's the halving of the kids, which is what makes the more conservative when you have kids. You are more threat, sensitive, you're, more likely to vote for the right wing party, so just delaying child child tub with wooden. What about what about fewer siblings that what yes that's part of it, and this, what we're seeing in Asia to when you have a the kids you're not quite as well

You have all your eggs in one basket. Can you right is word and the siblings raise each other s right and then there's a lot and they all night american stroke. That's me playing off light. Exactly it's the free play in fighting the working things happen themselves, those essential skills Delta K so could so, then all right. Yet let me also emphasise is part of that right. Well, and then also what's happening increasingly in schools is that kids aren't allowed free, play, and they are certainly not allowed rough and tumble free play- would actually that's it. That's one of the biggest things, and also the two that that would that there are three giant there. There are logical, it's it's. I mean this is such accurately fund, because it's like the biggest social science puzzled, our aid. What is happening? That's making so many of our citizens go haywire and I'm focus on university. The big three, I would say are one is the loss of a free unsupervised, Replay and Peter graves been brilliant on this is because in college, showing how even among young animals they have to practise the skills for adults

and getting past had shown that two, exactly so getting in conflict and then dealing with it and sometimes losing him back having game in which there is a problem, but you have to work it out of the game stocks. That's what kids always did the only recently, the nine begin in the nineties that it they're always supervised because we're afraid We take our eyes off them, they'll be kidnapped and it was never Aurettes was never. You know I've kind of wondered about this gender flexibility issue as a form of delayed fantasy play. You get ready money. Had well because it looks to me like that is when kids are little three and four say three to seven: they do tremendous amount of identity play. You know that tender animals. They pretend area their parents, they they put it. They pretend there goals, if their boys they pretended boys, if their girls like they really do a tremendous amount of identity play and one of the things that's been really doing me as well, what happens if that isn't, if they never have, an opportune for that, because they're not engaging in fantasy play, maybe

just delayed till adulthood- that's interesting so because played almost impossible to overstate the importance of that rough and Tom. Play and then the fantasy play that enables you to adopt different identities and then the negotiated games that you talked about that enable people to handle both both victory, but even more importantly, loss. So that's possible outcome, be. I know that I have no no opinion on with the big three factors that I think are explaining exclaimed portable was having a camp.

One: the loss of their unsupervised place of the kids have always theirs: it wasn't it all present, and so they come to college and they expect there to be an adult dean. Somebody if there's a conflict as one to a social media which hit just as I gin so I Jane internet generations, is Jean twinkies work. We used as we used to think that we used to think that the millennium generation ends in nineteen ninety eight or two thousand, but Jean twenty shows looking at four large data set that birth. Your ninety. Ninety five kids born a ninety. Ninety five, an after a really different their values, are different

they have much higher rates of anxiety and depression, especially the girls boys gone up goes a long way up and the reason seems to be that Facebook lowered its age. So in two thousand five, you had to be a college student at a certain number of colleges to get Facebook in two thousand six. You could be any eleven year old who lies and says that she's thirteen you gotta Facebook account but then you're using your parents, pc as in two thousand and seven the Iphone comes out and saturated the market fashion. Any consumer product ever has so by two thousand ten or eleven. A lot adolescence have have facebook. And other social platforms- and this is just devastating especially to girls, because it's not texting texting is just meet a you know. That's back in four! That's fine that in a week when we were kids, you call your friends on the phone. That's fine! The problem seems to be accorded to twenty is especially platforms in which he put something

out, and then you wait and see what everyone says right and that especially, is damaging to girls who already or at risk of eating disorders and image. Ok, so I'm so girls become more susceptible to negative emotion when they hit puberty, whether there Yet here we are again there's another issue too with regards to female aggression. So no is clearly the case that males are more likely to be physically damage in slash aggressive the females are, but what females use is reputation savaging as excess, Nicky tricks, work, Nicky, Crick hast wake up years ago showed that if you add it all up ways and cross it clear grasp, but the boys is more physical, the girls them a relational. So, if you imagine a bunch of thirteen fourteen year olds in their middle schools, and then you parachuting a whole bunch, iphones everybody's got, the parsonage one of the boys gonna do didn't play video games that doesn't hurt anybody here.

The girls are going to use it to amplify the sauce interactions. So this is twinkies exploration. I think it makes a lot of sense. So it's it's a catastrophe to crisis and were really hurting, especially the girls. So we ve got to change something about that anyway, but social media is is possibly the largest single reason why things are going. On campus. The third big fact and do you think, is primarily facebook. Or can you tell well it's it's of the kids use a lot of different platforms, but from what I hear Instagram Facebook snapchat it again. The thing is, is one too many? That's what's bad! Is it anything if its? If it's, you put something and you see how many people like rats what's right in there's, always a threat that little viral in the terrible way, so that the right hammer exactly there's the sword of Damocles unlimited. That's for unlimited image, unlimited downside to saying something. So what you did to the right you're right, I don't know I went to like that post because you know

the trouble for right while the benefit to liking. It is minimal and the potential catastrophe for decent less you expected to like it in which better like it, because you, if you don't like it, you get in trouble so it's a much more of a mob mentality. Kids are for. I am not blaming the kids a very sympathetic, and these are my kid third, my concern are eleven and seven they're gonna come up into this, so the kids been raised in it in a social environment, is much more about mob mob formation, mov attacks and Bob defend defences against mobs and then so the Pakistan is the political polarisation and purification of institutions. So, if you imagine coming up in the nineties when political positions goin up were beginning to hate each other more across party lines, but it's not that hard at that that nasty, but it's getting much much more hostile so that now, if someone like, if someone is it, if someone goes to a campus Republicans meeting its Democrat goes to a meeting of the camps, Republicans as

You see Santa Cruz a couple weeks ago and some are finds out. You know that so that the port, the hatred, the Cross party hatred, is so much stronger now and many other institutions are much pure. So if you went to college Ninetys, there might have been a few conservative professors around, but now there aren't so, as you said, before, tat exposure therapy. If you ve never encountered a conservative idea, and then a conservative like Heather Mcdonald comes to speak on your camp is what this is like. A major immune response problem you gotta get tribe together and mob her in and shut her down, so Those are the many other reasons, but the law when supervised play social media and rising polarization? Those are the three big ones right these are big problems, especially the loss of unsupervised play. It's not it's obvious at all how that might be address. Yes, it is ok, good good! I really want you lie everyone should by Lenore sudanese book, rearrange kids

Asia should up and give their kids more unsupervised time now. You can't do this alone will be arrested, yeah I tried to get my son to go out across the street. You know by growth when he was nine years old Europe and hits eloquent daddy people look anything there. Another kids out there. And so the nor has started a fantastic organization called let grow so if you're gonna let grow dot, org, cable, put all this in the description. All of these things, the board of it as an adviser, Peter Gray. Effort on play is on the board and they do this simple things: simple, simple things like You convince the school to just open up the playground and our early or keep it open after school. Why should kids always have organised activities and soccer practice just give them a place? They, where there's a nurse available. If someone gets hurt,

is an adult, but he's not supervising he's just over their right. So dont worry parents, there isn't adults, but beyond that into it, and they just started this a few weeks ago in the result. Fantastic because having so much fun they are Coming more independent, there were willing to do projects on their own, its working out, great so that's really gonna do this on your own. But the thing is we all those things so those are very practical. That's very practical piece of advice: forests for schools is like open up the young supervise, play facilities and and and facility their use as you give everyone, waste, which is safe and by safe I mean physically save right, never used the word safety to describe emotions and ideas. Safety means physical safety. You gotta provided physically place with the kids to play and beyond that you let him go now. There were, arise, problems of bullying, so if its repeated harassment or

well. I know a book about that. Would flip books by Dan always called bullying what we know and what we can do about it, and it was written it's got to be thirty years ago and always cut the rope. The the the the the incidence of bullying in the scandinavian countries down by fifty percent, He really really targets what bullying means so he's not a safe space guy. By any stretch of the imagination, I dont know what the origins of it are. I know that evaluations of his programme, America, show it anywhere procured a twenty percent reduction, like I said, I didn't have much smaller in the: U S in the: U S ear! The question is whether or not they were able to implement them with the rigour he did in the? U S, input beer but pulling programmes are part of the problem, because bulling clearly is a problem. We need to do something about it, but because we have us call concept

so so it's an imaginary concept creep looks like even so now it's the case that if, if kids don't invite, if, if some kid my view, something they don't invite, another kid is excluded. Right. Well, I could be fully right. I've read of schools in Europe that don't allow kids to have best friends for exactly that reason. Yeah well, because, This is also something that really bothers me about the misuse of the eighteen, because it's not that see to distinguish in group preference, which no one can No one in their right mind would want to eliminate in group preference, given that it governs Your choice of made and your behaviour to your family members. Let's say she did to distinguish that before Our group exclusion is knowing no simple matter and its tell kids that they can.

Best friend is another thing that interferes with an important part of their hats. Rightly valiant efforts both of us to spend a lot of time, looking at ancient wisdom at at the writings of of people long ago, and I often combat Aristotle's claim that any virtue carry to extremes. Becomes a vice. So inclusion is a good thing if people being excluded because they were physical stigma or or their overweight or their skin color, so need to be looking at the reasons why kids are excluded. But if you say inclusion is the primary virtue, inclusion over everything else, If those two best friends are excluding others, no more best friend right, this is madness, is is a vice. So I think that inclusion again, you know it's a virtue unless is carried two extremes world that probably a pretty good place to stop. I would say, unless you have, you have anything else that you wanted to talk about what we talked about the room

all of religion and in the fact that we are naturally religious thinkers. Yet we talking about Henry Docks Academy, we talked about your work on disgust and your plans for the academy. You talked about your books. Is there anything else that might be of interest? You can think of the just that others say that I'm actually optimistic about. What's gonna happen on campus, I think things might continue to get worse this year, but I think it is an interesting phenomenon called preference falsifications when you have people not speaking honestly, then, as you had under communism, when you have a whole system, must ever He thinks this is terrible. I hate this, but I dont dare say anything: will your preference publications work? My team are Koran and everybody here's a Buddhists preferences, so they think. Ok, that's what everybody thinks

When you haven't unravelling it can unravelled very quickly. That's what happened! The communist countries, everybody hated it and it fell amazingly quickly and I think the unity, the pushed back. It reads last week where there was there last week you so I think, because most people are starting to see is that a lot of people of color, also

you're, not speaking for me, I mean every group is diverse, and so, when you have a variety of people and you have progressive speaking, you have a variety of people. I think we're going to see more more people standing up saying what was happening as this is not right. This is illiberal. This is opposed to the values, because this is not what I want for myself from my kids or my students, so I do think that we're gonna start seeing a lot more people standing up and one of our goals are Iraq's academy, is to just help put out the ideas that people need Miss. What you're doing to just put up the ideas critique the bad ideas and put out concepts in that that can contest in this and, in the case of ideas, get good information. So if people go to address it,

how to meet that work. On our research pages, we have all the information at what about the pole say. What's the current information about that students, attitudes? We have the history of this. We have a lot of research on who is more biased, left or right. What turns out both sides are radically biased, so we think that by just doing what we actually do well as academics, that is, we search making arguments in common civil. We actually think that we can turn this and so, if anybody wash MRS a professor, I would I invite you to join. Gotta have handed outward let me ask you one more question mean I'm that that sounds good and I'm it's good to hear that optimistic. I mean I waiver. Although I would say and pessimistic. I just think we're in one of those situations where things could spiral in either direction very rapidly, and that worries me what about the disciplines on campus that seem to be primarily devoted to the activist cause, because my view

is, or my fear is that we subsidized. The activists, let's say, women studies as a good example, but we could say social work and then the faculties of education now as well, I think they're in the same, in the same, been let's, let's, let's put it that way. The women's studies programmes in particular their their express goal. Pressed on a website is to produce social justice, rabbit left leaning activists and so like for a while. One of the things I proposed in Canada was that the conservatives in particular cut The university funding by twenty five percent so that the universities would have to sort themselves out, but then that was what was a provocative claim, obviously, but then I thought: well, that's not a good idea, because it opens up the door to political interference in the academy and that's bad. This is rather less raft. No that's right at the academy the very bad job of policing itself method. Logically, and we have

these disciplines. Women studies, I think, is a prime example. That's been very much criticized in Canada by Janis FEAR Mayo who used to be yes. Yes, she is and she's. That she's not an unnatural mill, you when she's doing such things, you know she's she's, a brave and tough person and she's gone after the whims, studies, types on methodological grounds, particularly, but but there are people who were working full time at doing nothing but producing the kind of polar. So what do you have any doubts about? Yes, I do. I think so here I teach in business school here and if each of course call profession, responsibility and I teach my students about their fiduciary duties, the duties to their employers, the dude that we have to each other and fiduciary duty refers to a very, very high standard of care, for mention someone's money. You know

you really have to be committed to doing what's in their interests, not in your interest, and I think we need that concept. In the academy, we have a much more freely because fiduciary duties or just professional duties, but I think we have to primary professional duties that we must never never betray one. The most important one in our role as scholars is our duty to the truth. We must never say things that we think are false or allow p to say things that we think are forced because we're afraid if we challenge and will get in trouble, so we were fiduciary due to the truth and political. Ideological commitments. Clearly warp ass, they make us do things they make a. They push us, so we ve got a whole. We ve got recognise that if we let our systems get out of whack, we are betraying the truth. Where systemically we wanted, we ever systemic truth is impaired. We are systemically betraying the truth and many other disciplines. So I think we need an awareness of that and we need to hold a centralized him. Then, in her role as teachers

we have an here. We really can call it a fiduciary duty. These, our peoples, children, who are sent to us to educate, to enlarge their minds, to teach them skills, We were to use them for our sexual pleasure. It's obviously are horrific crime, but Is it if we use them for ideological purposes? If we say you ve, given your children to educate, I'm waging a political battle, I'm gonna try to use this tool service tools that is correct, That is unacceptable. We are violating our duties, so I think the zeal it right, but the response to that, especially from the postmodernism types, is that that's all there is. There's only ideological closet perfect, so that original question are their problem departments absolutely. So I wanted to put forth these two commitments Truth anti, educating, not indoctrinated and universities that embrace these highest goals, like the universe he Chicago, I think, is the best candidate With-

probably find they need to do something about diplomacy. Don't live up to those goals. Other universities and having brown is leading the way on this one so far made the early at twenty fifteen. The president, Iraq to statements about Brown, is committed to social justice, a fundamental a bedrock of socialism She said so if some universities choose to devote themselves to social justice, that's fine, just be up front about it say so students will now, if you want Social, Joe, twenty, you gotta Brown, but if you want to actually be trained to find the truth to do research you go to Chicago and I think we're gonna see people flooding to Chicago and schools like it

no, but I'm hoping, but I'm hoping to have a mechanism there, if they, if they make it if they make their statements public, that the choice of the students will be to go to the universities that hold the principles that you just described over. The other wants it'll, be a marketplace, chore exactly that's it that's. Why said, when I talk about the emperor's new clothes, we have a situation if a gigantic market failure in which our top universities are offering a product that most consumers don't want, and so my prediction is that Chicago is To see a you'd search, it applications this year and if that's true, I think other universities are going to Hollywood is gonna. Take notice, some hoping that will see a schism numerical enemy between those universes stand up and say this is madness. We are committed to providing a platform. We don't discriminate based on viewpoint politics, that's the Chicago way and those they say no more about social justice come here. We will train you to fight for social

justice and against the right. So if if people have clear choices Then I think we're going to see a big change and that's why I'm optimistic, so I think we're going to see that alright well, thank you very much have a great day Miss.