Follow up One I'm pleased today to be able to speak with Rob, Henderson he's a phd dude and evolutionary social psychology and Gates Cambridge scholar at the University of Cambridge here. This bachelors degree and science in psychology from Yale and is a veteran of the? U S airforce. His writing has appeared

the New York Times the Wall Street Journal and Cuette among other outlets. He is currently writing a memoir tentatively titled troubled, a memoir of foster care, family and social class to be published in late, two thousand and twenty two by gallery books a division of Simon and Schuster. He is possibly best known for the idea of luxury beliefs, which is where I first came across him first published in the New York Post in short form and then in longer form in Colette. Thanks very much for agreeing to talk to me today rob it's a pleasure to have you here, it's great to be here, Dr Peterson. Thank you. No problem, So let's talk first of all about luxury beliefs and exactly what that means and how you came come up with the idea of what the consequence of disseminating. It has been yes, so the luxury beliefs idea. I define, as

ideas and opinions that confers status on the upper class while often inflicting costs on the lower social classes- and I mean there, multiple strands to this idea, but it originally started with my observations in undergrad at Yale, So as you sagging currently on the gratitude in Cambridge. Before this, I was a student at Yale, but before that my it was a lot different. I grew up in foster homes and allay later I was adopted into working class town in California serving the military side, just how two completely different set of life. Experiences in background, when many of my peers at that this Ivy League University, and in that new post as a b, the original luxury beliefs, I say I opened with this story. Over this conversation I had with a classmate of my undergrad. We are talking about relationships and career and she said to me

I just think monogamy is outdated. I just think it's not really good for society. I think it's, this sort of old, patriarchal way of thinking and I'd heard things like this before This time I asked her well, what do you plan to do? You know what want to do with your own life and with your own relationship situation and so on in the future, and she has said well. I'd like to get married and settle down have a family some point you know sort of after my career takes off and I asked her what was your lifelike before that? You know how did you grow up and essentially she had come from other stable in tax to parent family, and so this, puzzled me because this was an emblematic of so many of the opinions I heard a mile in underground. My peers, would say one thing: they would believe this one set of interesting or unusual believe it's right, never heard a far from any one else, but then they themselves had come from sort of more. Mention all upbringing.

And they themselves planned to have that kind of life that sort of more stable, traditional family at once heard someone put this way that term- a lot of sort of affluent people, they, oh, what is it? They walk the fifties and talk the sixties, and I wonder if you know what's going on here and so, While I was an underground, I came across a series of papers, series of ideas both from psychology and sociology so sort of sociological aspects. It came. I do this from thirst enabling enabling idea of Europe a theory, the leisure class in the late nineteenth century, and he basically said Tina the elites of his day. They broadcast their status material goods with expensive clothes succeed owes evening gowns. They take up he's very expensive in time. Consuming hobbies like golf or beagling, and all of this, is to basically indicate their high social position, and some people say this book is written sort of tongue in cheek. But I think there's not a true to this now

we fast forward the modern day. I think it's are two things going on with why it's not actually fashionable anymore to despair. Your status with luxury goods with material good number one. I think it's become viewed as kind of If you walk around and ideally cap is today the students don't look like they don't have the ivy look of, like the nineteen. Fifty to ninety six he's the kind of just look like regular college students number one, and I mean this is true pretty January. If you look at very wealthy people and if a famous example of this would be Mark, Zuckerberg wearing cargo shorts and a hoodie. It's just not that cool anymore to wear clothes that indicate that your high social status, the other thing is material goods have become more affordable, even my sort of poor working class friends back home, all of them up iphones, you know, maybe they of course, like they're, like aren't ass, comfortable ass, my peers and college, but a lot of mature these have become so affordable that it becomes

or to stand out in that way. Yanza wildly selected, I think, to some degree in the decline in burglary, material objects. Just start is worth as much as they word, so they do not distinguish between people anymore. Worth it anymore. I still things and, and so so that side that that's the aspect of it that led me to think Kay well, first of all you know. Luxury goods are not being displayed as much by the upper class, but I still think it still seems. They say very much about social status, and this is where the psychology aspect of it comes in from research. In Cameroon, Anderson, you see Berkeley he's a psychologist, you found he and his colleagues found that basically, the upper class here is the most about social status because the most about obtaining it and they care the most about preserving it, which at first I thought was a big counter intuitive. I thought that perhaps the most downtrodden

of people who are in the lowest rungs of society. We care the most about obtaining money and wealth and status, but that's actually not true. It's the people who are already at the top who care the most about it, and that's really What I saw you two were young. These two were very much. Drivers. They were very interested in pursuing status. Do you suppose that's a partial consequence of the fact that failure is perhaps more painful than successes rewarding so once you have it, say you have high social status, you're very much inclined to keep it because the alternative would be so, I suppose, in some sense unthinkable so catastrophic. For you. Right so so this is the idea of almost like this prospect. Theory idea that when you habited it hurts and twice as much as ask obtaining it. I think there are some to this idea. I know there was a lot of anxiety.

Among many of my peers, this feeling that they have to keep up. They have to constantly strive. They have to get onto the next goal and I think what exacerbates this feeling is that they are surrounded by people just like them. It was. It was a bit. Unlike my own experience, when I had got into undergrad. I am I felt like it. So I'm okay. I got into college like that was my goal. I never thought I was ever to get into college, and so, when I got there, I thought, like oh I'm, okay and then saw these people didn't feel ok that they had to get the next internship they had to get in a law school. They had to do this. They had to do that and I think, a lot of, is because their round people they ve, grown up around those kinds of people, their entire life, and so there's this belief like it. It was inevitable they always had to do this. There was no

the question of their success right, raspberry eating. It wasn't like that yeah well, when, on his pressure, when I taught at in Boston at Harvard mean one of the things I noticed was that the students there were, you know they were pleased to be at Harvard. There was no doubt about that, but they it was extremely competitive implicitly and I suppose, that's part of the consequence of it being essentially base as much as it could be on on competitive merit, and so it was also the case that many of these students had been out standing where they had come from. They were classed as a deterrent and usually had at least one or two other major accomplishments under their belt. But when they got to these intensely selected institutes? They were also in some sense, average instantly and below average in many ways

because you know no matter how smart you are the probability that here, the smartest person in your class at Harvard is pretty damn low, and so the implicit level of competition was extremely high, and so that might also exacerbate the sort of tendencies that you're describing. And people tend to compare themselves to their immediate peers, not to the broader world right- and this is part of I think it is is driving this. You know I make us point. May I say that their Their Dunbar's number- you know there are two hundred and fifty close his people to ban are a hundred and fifty baby. Millionaires, and so, if that's your social circle, then you feel this constant, underlying tanks to display display status in some way, and so my my claims that the applicants in large part have re or they attach artificer detached status to goods and re attached to beliefs I, this was driven by a sort of what I saw where I heard

means and ideas that I had never heard anywhere else. I mean probably the most contentious recent example of why the luxury belief is this idea of abolishing the police. To me this is so emblematic of very comfortable, highly affluent educated people who would never have to bear the cost of of what that policy would entail, and yet they are proposed no they're they're broadcasting in promoting it with the knowledge this is going to make them look to their peers, is going to make them look progressive and interesting and provide and when them all these social points from their social circle, without really giving much thought to what would happen to the poorest. Among us

and it will wonder what is the recent restructurings, one things that always struck me about beliefs in progressive, so called progressive causes among high status, individuals or those who are about to be high status. Individuals which would typify everyone in an Ivy League University mean if they're not high economic status at the present time, they certainly will be by all likelihood by the time. Their thirty so they're already part of the upper class, regardless of their claims, they seem to want to have it both ways. They want to be members of the most privileged class and then also be rewarded for their allies, ship, let's say with the oppressed, and so they get to be rich and privileged and friend, to the oppressed at the same time, which always which to me to be a form of of of greed rather than sick.

Dorothy the rather than genuine sympathy. There's not much self sacrifice involved in the adoption of the belief that you just described, and what I dont remember, who said it when the upper class catches a cold, the lower class gets pneumonia, and so These destabilizing beliefs are a lot harder on people at the bottom of the socioeconomic structure than they are for people at the top who, as you said, ten to get married disproportionately, often compared to people who are lower down on the socio economic. Structure. Yeah there's this sort of it sinister theme that I saw sometimes where I would cease and for example, say that investment ban are emblematic of capitalist oppression and I would see those same exact students attending recruitment sessions for Goldman Sachs and my interpretation of what they were doing here is basically

trying to undercut their rivals. They were trying to undercut their competition. So if you and I students and I can convince you that investment banks are evil, don't work there. That's one less competitor that I have in my quest avatar up some will have told me that is too cynical are used big that has added hundreds hano most likely yeah well, I was struck two at Harvard by the disproportionate movement of Harvard Undergraduates into financial services No, I didn't understand till I went to the United States and worked at that extraordinarily powerful university. What a staggering proportion of the students end up in jobs exactly like that, and they are considered very broadly, I would say, among the ungrudging as the highest status job. They certainties have tremendously high starting salaries and Mean Harvard produced Comparative,

a few scientists, let's say so yeah I notice I I mean it's. I've seen the date onto something like thirty percent of undergrad. That places like Harvard YO in Princeton, at least thirty percent of my closer to forty percent end up working in either investment banking finance- or I think tech is the third most popular right and they end up being often being consultants. And so forth. So, fair enough, I mean they're high cognitive ability, individuals generally, and so it's not surprising that they buy and they're competitive for the reasons that you described and other reasons there's powerful socialization at work too, so it's not surprising rising that they gravitate towards those jobs. But I suppose, to what degree do you think beliefs of this sort are also motivated by guilt? I mean I've. Often I've often see

no New United States in particular more well to do people tend to put their children in private schools, and I think there is a tremendous amount of guilt about that because they are while they are racially segregated, comparatively speaking at at least long some. And, and that's really not an egalitarian thing to do, even though you may be motivated to provide whatever advantage you can for your children. So is it guilt as well as the broadcasting of status in your I I don't know. I think that there's a lot of performative guilt, it seems like they talk a lot about guilt, but when it comes to actually paying any kind of personal cost, I we don't see there behaviors aligning with their luxury beliefs. I'd, like you, said baby willing to show in all this money for private schools. There are willing to pay my eleven secure neighborhoods. There was a story last here's. What about the heights of the the pandemic? In addition to a lot of

protests in the rights that are going on in Manhattan, alot of rich New Yorkers fled to the hamptons and they had hired private security and know that's perfectly sensible. I mean I understand why they would do that, but this is of the actions of the affluent that they take the broadcast once had a beliefs, but them privately they'll do everything they can to secure. Their safety and the future of their children. So maybe it's guilt, but I'm not sure how genuine it is. I mean I just saw it get me they're. So many examples of these logically said I saw from like I said that the police issue to be like open borders to decouple of drugs. I mean all of these. These issues, I think, are disproportionately harmful to working class, lower class people and there's there's no

cost no actual made, maybe there's guilt, but there's no actual sort of costly benefit or costly, extraction in also may be that when you're relatively have been relatively protected, but implicitly, let's say: ok, so you live in a gated community live among wealth people who live in the neighborhood where crime is essentially nonexistent. Where privation is essentially nonexistent. All of these things, then the cost of order provision seems disproportionately high because you have no idea what it's good for, and so you can imagine that you might also be included Two only look at the negative side of well drug criminalization and police funding, and all of that because it doesn't appear

in your world that there is a necessity for those things. So if you, lived your whole life so comfortably and even over it are against any kind of hardship for any serious hardship. Then a lot of this is taken for granted. Well, at least That's, not the kind of hardship I mean it's not like people who are well off, don't still have hardship because their families sick and do still all sorts of. But there are protected very well from social unrest. Let's say: and so the means necessary to ensure that society remains at peace. The enforcement reasons, for example, that would include border protection, seem exe whose Neri and unnecessary when they ve never been. Threat of any sort at all. Yes, I mean beyond the physical safety issue, one when other interesting

ample of this phenomenon, I think, is a lot of people in tax sort of tat. Tycoons will sort of promote the benefits of addictive technology while privately they go any sort of dopamine fasts they dont use these technologies, Steve Jobs famously would not let his kids use an Ipad lot of other people in TAT. Reportedly, other nannies to carefully monitor how much their children use smart and so on. I there tv personalities who own television networks, but they don't have a tv at home and lot of this, I think, is sort of like dont get high on your own supply. You know: addictive technology is ok for the masses olive you can. Let us get sucked into be screens, but I'm going to be very careful with how me and my children in my family interact with this technology. You that I'm getting rich off of so it goes even beyond the sort of physical security. I think it's me

Or, even more so about you, you're, taking care of yourself who, while not so much thinking about the harmful effects on on others? Yes, so it's a matter of wanting to have. It both ways. And so what would you consider? What is the rue universe of luxury beliefs luggage? Well, I would say that luxury believes are primarily situated, of course, among highly educated, affluent people Essentially I mean there is, I suppose, You know I'm not keeping this compendium, at least not yet of every luxury belief that exists, but it Actually. If someone of a high social position expresses a belief, I think it's important for any. Who holds any kind of influential position in society, to think about what? What are the consequences of? If that belief were to be implemented. And especially when it trickled down the elected representatives

you're learning. Conservatives are always concerned with unintended consequences right and so that they dont presume that hypothetically benevolent social policies are going to produce a positive result sure, and I think there is there eyes social patterns that stands give reason for four concerns. So, for example, the this idea of sexual promiscuity. I think that the latest manifestation of this is is Pollyanna Marie. I had this conversation with a friend of mine know a couple years ago. He told me he arrived when I, when I open up my my tinder up another stating up- and I I put the radius too, just a couple of miles around unity. He also attends. You know university when I, when I put it to couple miles round notes which all of my Matthew dollar Bill profiles- I see our other other women students at the university and when I look at them I half of them say that

air, Polly, Amaranths or they're, interested in an open relationship or they're, not looking for anything to serious, and then he told- me when he extended the radius to match with women outside of the university into the town, and which is a sort of this working class town. He said that about half of the women that him he saw on on his app single minds. And so and ended the same age group ride like eighteen term, say twenty three years old. So in the unit diversity, they're interested in having fun and then the eighteen to twenty three year old working class women are having a much different experience of life, and my claim is that the luxury beliefs of the former have basically trickle down and wrecked havoc among the latter ladder. So starting In writing. Sixties data from and Putnam in trials. Marine others, which may have seen showing free samples in nineteen sixty working class,

born to working class families and children born to affluent families. Ninety five percent of them were born and raised by both of their birth parents and if you fast forward from nineteen sixty two two thousand five, the affluent families the children at the affluent I had dipped slightly. So it was ninety five percent in one thousand nine hundred and sixty, and by two thousand and five it had dropped to eighty five percent. So it was a slight drop, but by and large still overwhelmingly in tax families for the working class again in nineteen sixty ninety five percent, and by two thousand and five it had dropped to thirty percent. So I really dont world and our two, because there is an interesting progression between different ethnic cities and races along that curve. So the first correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this to be the case. The first population not really affect it was the black population. Then it was the hispanic population. Then it was the the white population, but the curves match their

they're just like ten years apart. If you, if you look at the same socio economic level and so yeah that good example of policies that are hypothetically liberal at the high and having a devastating effect farther down engine raised people who its people, who claim that marriage, for example, is a patriarchal institution Well, the best rejoinder too, that I know of is then well. Why did the rich get married in the poor? Don't choosing to oppress themselves, given their options? It doesn't make any sense. I mean, I think, it's an absolutely foolish theory to begin with, but but that that seems to me to be These have doubted. That indicates quite clearly that if you have a choice, that's what you pick or if you have the widest possible level choices, that's what you choose and so yeah it's it's a catastrophe, although you know that's that the fact that it's a catastrophe is

so hidden by a whole other set of luxury beliefs, like all families, are of equal value. Which in some senses. True right, because if you, if you're thinking about each person should be valued and whether or not the child- Single mother should be valued well. Obviously, the answer to that is yes, but that doesn't mean that all family configurations are equally functional. On average and I think the doubt is absolutely clear- that children with intact two parent families do far better. Now, if you get divorced, there are things you can do that moderate the effect of the divorce. What's his name, he wrote the boy crisis war has documented Farrell is documented a number of ways that people who get divorced can ensure that their children do

as well as they would in an intact family, and some of that involves approximately fifty percent contact with each parent. I think the parent also need to attend counselling third party counselling so that they can maintain a region, all relationship and they have to live within something approximating a twenty minute drive from one another, something like that, but I mean takes a lot of balancing and dancing to replicate that environment and seems impossible in our society to have the discussion about the fact that some form the families are better for children than others and because we think of the imposition of a value analysis of that sort as discriminatory, and you know in some sense it is discriminatory, because when you say that one thing is better you're all so saying at the same time that the opposite of that is worse. Identity, islands and who you're trying to focus on, and while I I go by the data fundamentally- and you know, children born

Young single mothers, especially if the young single mothers are troubled and therefore also easy targets for predatory males they dont do well and There's multigenerational effects of that and where to bloody, naive and- and I dont know immature I guess to have a serious conversation about such things, and we also don't know how to put the Genie back in the bottle, but there's no tax break, for example, for stable married couples. So there's no economic policy that supports it. Yeah? I mean I am not entirely sure that that would even change much. I mean. I think this is much more of a cultural issue than an economic issue. I mean you know a lot of people say where the recent well it's kind of interesting how how many different excuses are produced for this I mean, like you, said. A lot of people say that it's this patriarchal institution, but then why are the rich? Getting married?

the poor ride. I live anywhere. They let let's talk about that for a minute to mean. I suppose that claim is grounded in the historical interpretation that, in the past, women were treated in some sense as the equivalent of property and now, whether not that's a real Reasonable interpretation of the past is entirely up for debate, although we could say that it was more true one hundred and fifty years ago than it is now, but we could also point out that birth control was a lot less reliable and so the relationships between well in women didn't have the freedom they have today. For all sorts of reasons, hygienic reasons for that matter I mean one of the things that treat women was the easy access to technology that dealt with menstrual cycle, and

like toilets, and all of that to mean we just don't understand how much sanitary technology, for example, is built into the interest, picture as well as safety, because women can walk down the street on companies without any problem. Compare We speaking, we don't understand how much of that has changed the relationship between the sexes, and so there may have been property like associations with marriage a hundred and fifty years ago, but first of all doesn't necessarily mean that that was a patriarchal institution mean. It was still the case that the idea was the men would stick around and provide economic support and care for the children and that's a long term binding contract, and it seems to me the obvious off. It in some sense of libertine freedom, so where's, the patriarchy it not precisely Women work equal in some sense, but the reasons for that I mean men

people have made the argument that spy loosening the norms are on. Marriage has actually been to the benefit of of men. In some sense, you know to be able to have a lots of promiscuous partner. As with many different men, and perhaps pregnant some of them and not have to stick around, there's no obligation to them beyond what we shall be seeing. How so that event. Dad means that its advantageous to psychopathic men right darker types while exactly because you know that the hallmark of psychopathy is short term advantage taken by given into without care for anyone else, and it certainly seems to me like dating apps like tinder. Now I don't, want to call every may often successful on tinder a psychopath. I'm not saying that, but I would say that it isn't. This to me at all that, if you're a success

for Polly amorous mail on tinder, and so that's going to be a very tiny subset of men, their hyper selected by women, the tiny subset of men who reap who receive almost no rejection. There are set up to learn to be psychopathic because all their interaction with other people can be devoted to short term sexual. Education with no emotional, intimacy or long term commitment and that's it. The training ground as far as I'm concerned, that's that I mean it depends on what you want for society but As you said, even the affluent women who profess a desire for polio memory, which is fleet, bloody rubbish. In my estimation, and completely underestimate the economic consequences of sex based a dream of the fair Tail princess who meets the prince, who, in a wakes her up with a kiss and are married happily ever after suits it such bloodied. Not

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if you're using a dating after more likely to say yes to that kind of question, so in a way, are you know right down to that to be? There is the old troop of notches in the bed frame and among adolescents, competitive adolescent there's no reason there. There is every reason to be competitive about how much you can drink and how many people you can lower in Tibet. And even if you don't necessarily believe that, personally, you know at a deep level, and maybe you suffer, emotionally to some degree, even though you might have secure that from yourself, it certainly something to score points with with your peers and there's plenty of that. I and if you know that that competitive bantering in in adolescent especially Listen male culture, and I mean it's not surprising to some degree, because adolescent males have to figure out how to navigate the sexual landscape, sexual landscape, and to going to do that in all sorts of awkward and finally unproductive ways:

easy thing to bind or to regulate properly, but I mean these technologies like tinder, ten, is a transformative technology and its ethically underestimated in terms of its potency, because it produces Hyper successful, predatory males and reduces rejection. It eliminates rejection cause, I mean be totally rejected, in which case you're a failure on tinder but normal pre mate, interaction, let's say is a high probability of rejection, especially on the part of males, and tat what is actually research on s? Yes, John tinder? Yes, I suppose there's three search basically showing that so on. Tinder women are they they like swipe right. They like the profiles of only four percent of the man that they re on the app, whereas fur

men when they see female profiles, stay swipe right or like more than sixty percent, that six zero. Sixty percent of the profiles- and rightly so- that's really concentrating want, because that's a great example of Hyper Gabby. Right, so women, mate across and up success hierarchies. And men made across and down right, so The women like men, who are about four years older cross, culturally, they like men, who manifest signs of success as well as being handsome and Annabelle than all of that and the reasons as far as I can tell you that there are looking to equalize the economic disparity that exists, because women take a harder hit from sex and pregnancy than men. So they're looking to equalize. That and no wonder there look.

For someone who's competent. This is for long term media whose competent and generous right you want both of those. So competence would be intelligence and we're cognitive ability in the markers that go along with that they want conscientiousness are openness as well as other desirable personality traits and they generosity honesty all of those. But so there look for someone who can provide well, it's not because their greedy, precisely its because, while they're going to put themselves in a more vulnerable position if they have a child- and we know this- because even affluent women who have child by themselves or who get divorced tend to drop down. The socio economic hierarchy, a fair bit, which is, of course, why alimony payments All of that are necessary, so this hyperbole, he means women are much more selective in their mating than men are, and that's true, cross culturally, and it's not surprising because they pay a bigger price for sex. It's more dangerous for women because they can get pregnant and it might

more dangerous emotionally as well, and I believe that would be a reflection of their higher levels of agreeableness higher levels of negative emotionality, so women do put themselves at risk more, and that might be why such an intense debate about what constitutes can't consent on campuses d fight these beliefs and Polly Emory in all of these things, but so anyway, on tender, as you said, women select four percent of the men. Yes so that I would imagine that four percent is very high up on what you're calling it a bit the success hierarchy. I have a friend, Looking guy guy, he was very active on tinder for a while, and he accumulated more than twenty thousand matches on the app twenty thousand twenty thousand, and he was so successful that tender kip, didn't early on and gave him all kinds of free perks and bonuses and lifted his radius. Restrictions gave him the did, but tinder gold app never version of it based

we're trying to alleviating the ten you dig up yet they wanted to incisors. This is so amazing. Never want you to leave. These are unbelievably pernicious and fish sprawled scale social experiments that are far more potent than anything like government policy? When I mean there's nothing he's in In this context story with twenty thousand I don't know I mean- is really less around twenty thousand yeah. Well, my sensations, are he tried and I know he'll get a kick out of that that records for fur like met athletes, for example, and movie stars. There's some of the men have reportedly slept with thousands of women. Yes, we'll Chamberlain and there's others. Who were in the same category, but there but their men who have women throwing themselves out them all the time lining up for them in, and I've read biographies of people who have that sort of thing happen as well, but they are not a typical male experience. I know the typical male experiences all reaction, exactly

by setting up a match is weak- right so well, so you see what's happening. Is that kinda, is one of the forces. That's transforming monogamy into polygamy and the problem with polygamy. Is that it? It follows a pretty distribution like the distribution of wealth, is that some tiny minority of men get all the sexual opportunity and all the rest, get virtually none in that. Is recipe for for social instability. I mean that sort of deregulation of romantic relationships, whereas in the past it was expected for you to have one partner and overtime settle down, whereas now it's a total. Pretty fraud. I mean there are aspects to this that a lot of people don't think about. I mean I talk to young people's way of younger friends who I talked to, who are sort of very active on on the absence of the dating scene and they'll. Tell me things like it's. It's, even too cheap. So in the past, if you wanted to be unfaithful to your partner, it was risky because assent

we, like you, you had the same social circle. You had the same. Friends, everyone you everyone else, but now with the APS, you can match with someone who is completely outside of your social reality outside of your partner social reality. You can have a very discreet rendezvous. No one will ever about this. Ghosting has become or more in our view about ghosting, but it's no ITALY, where you're in a relationship with someone and after, have sex. You know once or however many times, then you just vanish. You never see that person again delete delete them from your phone block them on social media. You never have to see them again and they set about solving it. S sets a real psychopath conquest strategy, yes right the psychopaths, they tend to form relationships that are very predatory and then disappear, because that way their reputations stay intact, as long as they can continue to disappear?

but I'm interested in what you said before about whether this is actually a sort of cultivating psychopathy and young people and young man. Where are you going, Typically, a psychopath would do that on their own, but now with the apps and the technology, removing all of the friction and from breaking up with some or having to communicate with someone they no longer want to see them. I think a lot of people who, who ghost others they're? Not even thinking in those terms are not thinking. I want to maliciously hurt this person or I don't care about person is just like it's easy, praecipe buttons on your smartphone and you can move on to the next conquest and I think a lot of people. That way. Otherwise, while the question would be what happens to you after you do that four or five times you know, let's say you're, not particularly psychopathic to begin with. Like you, you you, you learn what you practice and I would say, look if, if you're using people continually as a means to an end- and I think sex is probably the most effective way of doing that, then

you're, establishing a pattern of interaction between you and other people that perhaps the deepest possible level, and so, if you do that repeatedly, first of all, you're, not you're, certainly not engaging in anything that might be regarded as a meaningful or deep relationship. Quite the contrary, you regard that as excess baggage. That's an impediment to your next conquest, so to speak. So how would that not? I mean a it now. You said there was research on tinder. Has there been research on the relationship between the dark triad and these hyper successful man? I've seen research on Darth, try it and tender use, and young people who are high and our trade do tend to be more successful, accumulate, more partners, typically whether this this is related to gender and whether men are more successful or more likely turn to hurt others using these apps. I haven't seen anything on

I have interesting way scene. I think this was from pew Where they broke down there by education level and they ask people people questions like you ever been harassed on stating dating? Have you ever met someone Unabating app who inflicted physical harm on you? Basically Victor variety of negative experiences through using dating apps, and they found that people who are not college graduates were far more Equally, the women were far more likely to report negative experiences on the dating apps, compare to college educated women and to me this is also indicative of this sort of social class divide another manifestation of the luxury believe sexual promiscuity, where you know you introduce he's dating Axiom idea what's gonna happen or how it is going to warp society?

and how people are going to interact and romantic relationships and its disproportionately harming lower educated, low income, women who are like you're, saying that, probably more likely to meet a psychopath sir, probably perhaps less adapt in some ways at screening for certain kinds of guys. The other thing and I M so if they only, you can always be why has this? While there are a lot more there, a lot easier to prey upon a mean, they're, straighter, alot, more desperate and They've knocked themselves out of the single girl dating market and lowered their market value, so to speak. I hate speak of it in terms of that, but it's clearly the case. Because to initiate a relationship with a woman who has- child already is to initiate a relationship that has a lot higher up front cost the complexity of negotiating the relationship with the child. The additional responsibility has to be taken on instantly and none of that the least bit trivial, so

So that means- and we know that in general, if you do a triangular magic trying it presentation of a social hierarchy on any value dimension the people who are at the lower level are those who are most susceptible to any sort of destructive tendency that comes whistling through they dont have as much social support there a lot closer to abject poverty. They don't. Their these brought social network or the opportunities. So everything affects them disproportionately, including epidemic illnesses. And it's the case throughout the kingdom of life that low status confers vulnerability. Ha that's why people go for higher status, at least in part, so that the tender mean, I dont know how widespread tinder uses, I dont know that much about tender, but when I first found out about it, I thought this is a technology that, while they certainly named property because tinder starts fires and

it's a fire starter and not just sexually and something like forty per at last I saw something like forty percent of people under thirty are using. The APS I would imagine, is probably higher. Now I especially in the wake of covert, so that the data that I saw me recollected, I think in TWAIN nineteen, but after coded in the pandemic and the downs there's no other way to me. People side. Imagine a lot more people download is apps and will see if they were themselves offer their hooked. I mean these texts. Please use very manipulated earth strategies. I talk, to an executive. I won't say which dating out this was bud He told me that dating apps, some dating apps will basically what they call. I think they're called seeding. Will they put fake profile, a very attractive, usually women, right, because men are actually more likely what use dating apps and sort of more likely to pay for the premium profiles compared to and you don't have to because they're gonna get Matthews anyway, so

Anyway, the getting up companies they'll see them with fake, attractive women profiles intentionally match with men who have recently downloaded a new profile, basically newly created one, and the idea here is that if they, if they download the, and they immediately match with an attractive woman. And then they usually have a couple of conversational exchanges like hey how's, it going good. How are you and then that's it? de the robot- no longer responds to the user reason. The reason why this is done is basically to give them a little, is right drugs, you know, oh host and other major hit. You bet it's a major here: yeah and so a basically they called it a chasing the dragon, which is basically a term from from from drug use right from from heroin. You give them a little hidden and they're gonna be chasing that high for the rest of their lives. So you know, I think that no evil acts it. He says it is and ends

they are creating. A lot of, I think, a lot of heartbreak and a lot of frustration The old man get all over that. Well tell you might agile if your interacting with someone fake mean that be tailored to your desire, be peep. I'd have all you have to do is look at the pictures that someone was looking at produce a composite. That's that's a mountain those attractive women. Let's say I that the possibility for manipulation is almost infinite You won't say now stating up that's too bad because they deserve the exposure. But you know, like I understand your reticence, that's really unbelievably appalling and MILAN Well, I will say that if, if one app is doing it, then that means more likely are so it almost even matter they're, probably all doing some version of that, because that's how they get users

yeah. Well, it's not. I mean, however, an idea. You know it's a pretty obvious idea in a very crooked and horrible sort of way. So it's not like it would take a genius to think it up yeah, and so so this idea of who oh and I wanted to go back so so this idea of differently educate, aided, went in different social classes having different experiences on the dating apps, while there also having entirely different experiences in in the real world to in terms of their dating and romantic relationships after the erosion of marriage after the sort of deteriorating and norms around dating in romance. If I talk to some people for my, down, for example, and I think about the kinds of guys who stayed behind you didn't to college. You didn't during the military who just sort of language. And hung around there. These are not just but upon babies. These are not insult, prince, charming and so

when women are dating these men and there's no so norms. No it no forces constraining them. Many of them act very, poorly out of alcoholism, alot of drug use, verbal and sometimes physical, abuse, emotional abuse. A lot of these eyes who resort of our not not so educated, don't have a lot of money. Not a lot of life- prosper ex. When I get involved with women, they don't treat her very well very well, whereas in the past, I think that were stronger norms around how you're supposed to treat the opposite sex and how you're supposed to interact with them date them what's expected of you and so on. I think, with the sort of dissolution of expectations has come a lot more trouble for lower income, young women, women, yeah, hypothetically, the ones that the progressives are trying to do something

or removing these constraints of patriarchal relationships. For example, the question always is what flows in when you remove the dikes right? I mean that's another problem, I suppose in some sense that's analogous to the protection of of social classes. Many of these institutions that are so casually criticized, we don't know what forces shape them. So you know I've been pilloried in the press repeatedly for pointing out that normative monogamy controls male aggression. Now that it's it may seem to me that I've been slashed to ribbons for making that case, because I thought that was like Anthropology one hundred and one. So you know there's two things that every society needs to control and one is female fecundity because of its high cost and the other is male. Aggression is like well, I thought everyone knew that if they were even moderately educated and how do you control,

regulated for everyone's interests, particularly for the interests of children. The answer seems to be the imposition of monogamous norms. Now people objec, while our people truly monogamous- and the answer is not. If you set up the environment to differentially award, hyper successful, Polly amorous mails, which is exactly what doesn't know our societies where that's the case, where one man has a thousand wives, so to speak, and nine hundred and ninety nine men have none but those aren't, societies that are stable and those young men who have nothing to do fine things to do and they aren't necessarily the sorts of things that you want them to be doing, because what they did they have to lose fundamentally It's not a good idea to generate

a society full of young men who have very little to lose so I'd, and it is an appalling thing that the privileged classes are more likely to despair. Marriage, let's say- and these ideas trickled down over time is short. Throughout society, because elites affluent educated people disproportionate influence where there is, Media pop culture fashion here something cool, so do you know the names drift down the social hierarchy. What is so as well so influence Upper class people will produce a name for their child. And then that not Maenas gives popularized the way down the social hierarchy until it becomes passe and so and become. More and more common as it drifts down. So this influence that you just arrived

You can measure it everywhere there there, the fashioned leaders there on the cutting edge and everyone imitates, and so yes- and I think that is so so of course, like actual fashion clothing, of course, the sort of trendsetters and then a trickle, like everyone else. I didn't I no, that's not name which is really interesting, but I think it's. It is also for sort of moral beliefs. If as well one idea that I've sort of been playing with. Maybe this is now a little bit dangerous for me to say, but I've been thinking out this. You know who is championing sort of color blindness integration. This idea that you know we should treat everyone on their merits, and so on I mean it whatever fifty six years ago this was a very progressive idea and it was mostly championed by highly educated people were affluent people. They also tend to be the abolitionist movement in the: u and so on. But more recently things change. So my idea here is that in the past the elites,

this idea of color blindness overtime that idea trickled throughout society such So let us right now today, if you talk to a typical middle class the working class as western person they do tend to be, if we believe in color blindness the racial added these are basically like who cares and it's not it's not an important thing in their lives and now that the elites have spread this belief? How do they once can distinguish themselves from the oil pollution from the middle and working class people they once again to make race and important feature of our social reality I got a comment about your theories there for a SEC, if you don't mind sure, when Francis Galton one hundred and fifty years ago started studying, he thought about it as excellent. It's something like that. Some of the IQ research came out of

he started to measure people on a whole variety of different dimensions, but his conception of of excellence of superiority, let's say, wasn't so much cognitive capacity, but a more differentiated sorts of things that we might measure today an associate with some degree of value com conscientiousness, creativity, intelligence, Galton, who is an english aristocrat, which is the reason I'm bringing this up was at the forefront of that movement, and he believed, like most english aristocrats, of his time, that England was a superior culture and that english aristocrats were the hallmark of english superiority right and but that superiority was fundamentally, I would say moral. The superiority that was being searched for wasn't economic, exactly that the economic superiority was an indicator of the moral superiority.

And so in that would provide aid. Yes, yes, so that would be associated with something like moral purity and and and associated with disgust. Now George Orwell talked about cause. He was from relatively higher social status. I think he was upper middle class, but he said he had a visceral distaste of the working class, and he had to overcome that and he did. He worked in restaurants and he worked in all sorts of jobs. He went to warming Orwell strove to overcome that visceral disgust and discussed is the opposite of is, purity and that's associated with a kind of moral superiority, and so one of the things that your idea One of the ideas that you're concept brings up is the notion that Central axis of social hierarchy is something like assumed moral superiority and everything. Else is a marker of that, including economic wealth. You know I have this economic wealth because I deserve it. That's an indicator that

superior morally, and that would go along with the idea of I think that would go along with the idea of luxury belief, I need to distinguish yourself from the contaminated lower classes constantly. Were reasons as I anklets has onto you, think that what's going on, I do. I think that that that drives enlarge I urge the motivation to to broadcast these believes is to basically the world- I am not one of the you know the whole Polloi one of the little washed masses, the unwashed. And so there they're they're, telling you hope to society at large and an important illiterate telling their peers. You know, don't mistake me, for one of those people there, and so this sort of what I'm getting at with this idea that you know now. Now that the masses believe that race should no longer be treated as a big deal in society, if here are the elites if you say that,

you may be at risk of being mistaken for one of the masses. And so now you have to sort of reintroduce the importance of race and ethnicity and so on and say that we, you know you don't want to be colorblind. You want a sort of highlight our differences and and so on, but this here is, Luxury belief- because you know you may be able to sort of promote this sort of Rachel divisions among highly educated, highly affluent people and we heard it's- probably not gonna- hurt you very much, but if that Bali If his reintroduced into society, where we should once again pay very close attention to what skin color we are, what race we are that could create problems for order,

people. No, I think you don't have the problems already because well because look, I think, one of the factors and I'm certainly not alone in this, although maybe I can differentiate it a bit better. I think a big part of the reason that Trump was so attractive active. I saw this hat in Florida. I've told this story before it said Trump, two thousand and twenty one trump, two thousand and twenty yeah. Because fuck you twice and I thought yeah, that's exactly right. It's is because there's this perception on the part of the working class, perhaps particularly among working class males and maybe even more particularly among working class white, males that the progressive types that hypothetically stand for the oppressed

nothing but contempt for them, and the attractions tromp was yeah. Well here have some of this. I feel that every once in a while ago, back to my two, my hometown, Red Bluff, California and I'll talk to people- and I can feel this. You know like I'll tell them. I grew up here on sort of this is my hometown And whenever comes up so where did what you end up doing I'm can I say you now, I M going to Yale Cambridge whatever, but I am. I am always very quick- followed up with, but I enlisted in the military ass, a sort of my protection like I was in a military before I did, I was other stuff I can sense like when I say, go to yell. There's this sort of moments of awkward silence and I can tell there should have up In their view of me, and probably not and a good direction either. And so then when I followed up with, but I enlisted in any sort of things, come back down. I had this theory and saw a couple years ago, Nicosia playing cards in Corning, which is even more

or in small town in northern California? and my sister had never let it slipped the dealer that I was a student idea and a deal with him for it going like what are you doing in here? In a sense that, like a number one, why would you be gambling? And here, if you go to school like that in a number two like idiots sounded like I'm, not really sure I want you to be in here and well. Then, why cannot hey I serve in the military. Just want to play some cards huts and have it gets and he sort of let his guard down at that point, but I think there is this feeling among more blue collar working class people. All that you know, the elites over there. Are they look down on us? They view us in a certain way they treat like where stupid or backwards were evil or racist or whatever, and really it's I mean it's just not true. That kind of disdain also just sort of amplifies the division

and that is something I am also trying to highlights tools as well. I think that there has been a lot of emphasis in psychology on the role of fear in promoting belief, but I think that disdain, contempt and disgust have been under appreciated as separating motivational factors lass and it's one thing, if someone's afraid of you, that's not exactly offensive

when you might regarded as unfortunate, but there is also a kind of implicit respect. We have to look at how eminence exactly exactly, but if their disgusted by your disdainful of you. That means that your inner, contemptible and rotting category essentially and that's a lot it bigger dagger, aimed at your heart than that Fear I mean, would you rather be shied away from our sneered at right right, yeah, yeah yeah. I think this is this part of what sites with striving use, these sort of class divisions that that sort of working class in lower class. They feel this. They feel that there is this disdain for them on the part of the upper class This is part of what I'm trying to highlight. Two with this idea is to us

basically say that, like there are, these divisions, social class exists in America, and this is something that we need to be thinking about whenever we broadcast believes silly beliefs that no one believes I were both. Mine is that you know that the data are freely available. You can see what the majority Americans believe about the police. Or voter id laws or drugs, or what have you and the affluent just don't carry they're still going to broadcast their very silly beliefs I guess not even been able to take your hypothesis. Perhaps a step further, but perhaps you ve already thought this up. It's a real marker of my status that I can afford insane beliefs. Look how crazy I can be and still survive. Well, it's yeah right again make no mistake exactly it's exactly that its did. It's like a peacocks tale

Laden myself down with this palpable absurdity has material effect whatsoever on my continued existence, so the peacock is dragging around this very heavy colorful set of tail feathers and can still survive and the sort of highly educated when I was a side- can drag around these very expensive, costly luxury believes that clearly have no court. Responds to reality and they can still survive I they some some correspondence to reality for them, because they can afford to experiment with the beliefs without immediately perishing or without no fatally compromise in their lives, in most cases, not all, but in most cases, whereas if you're fired, down the chain and have less protection new toy around with Polly Emory, and you end up as a single mother when you're eighteen, that's the end of that and then you have the rest of your life to think about, while perhaps that wasn't very wise. But you know it's a little late then

yeah well, you can believe whatever you want. If you are a graduate of atop university and you are economically comfortable, you can have whatever set of believes you want, and- and Likelihood you'll be just fine, but you know I want to underline that. Because you are you are the most sort of sealed from the consequences of your believes you actually and in time you will. The most influence in society is very important to understand. If you have a belief- and you try- implemented into policy or to sort of erode or create new norms, or whatever just be very careful with what it is. Is that you're doing you can treat it as a and gain status, but in the longer term this is going to hurt it's going to hurt a lot of people, it's going to hurt the very people that supposedly we care the most about. So what have been the conflict

quences for you of being known for this kind of theory, Euro student at Cambridge you're in psychology, you are an undergraduate Yale. I believe you are an undergraduate Yale. Were you an undergraduate when you wrote you're say on luxury beliefs. No, that was during my first year here, Cambridge twenty nineteen. You know it's been it's been an interesting experience, I was a little bit nervous when I first wrote it simply because of the way things are going in universities, I had a very sort of turbulent introduction to university, If the campus life, when I first entered undergrad. So this was in the fall of twenty fifteen telephony, so in twenty two teams. I had just got out of the military in August I started class in September and a couple weeks, I saw that Jonathan Height was giving a talk on campus,

Just read his book, the righteous minds about moral psychology which has an interest of mine, and I thought that that's what his talk was going to be about, but the entire talk was basically about you know Are universities meant to equip students with the ability to seek truth, or is it meant to keep them safe and protect them and shelter them, and so on? I went to this talk totally confused that is not what I expected to talk about. That's not what I knew height for I knew him for his research, his psychology, research, right. You really look at the cartilage, give the american mind as well that hadn't, mouse, and talking to all I see or the year after, ok. So I only knew hide as the author of the righteous mind, and I didn't have the context for what that talk was about, because I was basically an outsider

to this kind of world of free speech debates. And you know what is the purpose of a campus and all this stuff. I was basically just like. I do too felt lucky to get into this great university and then about what three weeks after that Erika Chris. I, who is a faculty number at Yale, wrote this infamous email about basically defending you have expression, the Yale ever see administration, hello, seventeen August students. I want help Yes, yesterday, basically told students that the administration told students, you know, be careful. What you wear and all this stuff and Erika STAR sort of follow up. You now saying you know if you have a problem with what you were wearing should talk to them. You know it's important to uphold freedom of expression and so on, and there was this in time. Your campus. My first, my first experience

having seen any kind of campus protests like this before students coming together. There was this very sort of dark undercurrent. Around campus people were very afraid to speak out against what was happening and so that basically was my introduction to words, college is like, and that is based- We stayed with me ever since it was very fortunate experience for me to see what had happened there. The other thing I mean I I met with Arabic. Restock is later. I was interested in taking a class with her. She taught class at Yale called the concept of the problem child, which is basically This idea of sort of of children, children, children who get into trouble and mischief and so on in the sort of history in psychology, that and naturally to me, my back on his very interesting idea. I was wait listed for that class and very disappointed to learn that she stepped down from teaching. She said that it was not a good climate for for teaching anymore, because

yeah! Well, it's no parents may no longer even mobbed right, exact, It doesn't take. I'm Emily morbid experiences to do ye in yeah. Well, I mean I, I had met with her and I met with Nicholas her husband later, who was also targeted by the mob and to see you like the way that the students treated them, calling to rename the book demanded a baby fired and so on and Antlike discover that they were very good people in their personal lives. They had taken in foster kids of their own into and help them in. So like to see this. This clash between, like what the students were saying about them and who they actually were. I mean it. I mean I sort of form this. This cynical perspective that I still have about what kind of people go to these universities and what their

Tensions are hidden agencies and talk to you about two terms, your luxury believe. So you know we were talking. We ve talked about two things. In some sense, we ve talked about luxury police and we talked about sexual politics. I suppose right, and so I there is a way of bringing those together. So do you think there's have you look at gender differences in luxury beliefs? So, for example, I the universities, especially the liberal arts, are now dominated by women and that's not a trivial transformation. It's a fundamental transformation, and it I mean heights coddling idea is easily associated with no an excessive amount

dependence, let's say in so if the maternal role is fundamentally the sheltering of infants, which I think is a reasonable way of looking at them. Well then, what happens when not becomes political mean, because we don't know meeting about women's large scale, political behaviour, because this all new. And so, when you have an institution, its assent, Oriented to young people who could be regarded as children but wouldn't have to be but could be regarded as children is the maternal expression that they're safe insecurity and emotional well being is paramount and then, let's take this step further, just be annoying and horrible these, women who are at their peak age of fecundity, and you might say, well what's happening with all those maternal instinct. They're just gone all of a sudden, many nineteen year old girls, I've talked to many of them believe that their careers going to be the most important thing in their life.

Very few thirty year old women believe, even if they have high powered careers because they tend to discover that high power, careers come at us substantial cost like Steve Seventy, our work, weeks, etc, and so that life might be best spent in the bosom of family and friends and with children, etc. That's where much of the true values and most women figure that out by the time there in their thirties, which is why high power law firms, for example, have a hell of a time retaining their extremely competent and highly valuable women. No one likes to talk about this. They wouldn't talk about it in law. That I consulted for many many of them, all the women would talk about privately, but never publicly. The discussion was always about how the law firms work doing enough to support women with their children and all the women knew that wasn't true. That was what was going on in the law. Firms were bending over backwards to try to accommodate them because they wanted to

their high performing women for obvious economic reasons. So we have all these young women in who dominate institutions now like, while, especially the humanities and liberal arts, and universities like while is that the reason that security and safety and the sanctity of the home this is it community. This is a home, so I know that nobody university is actually but, but that that's what it could be. So what do you think of that? These discussions that no one will have obvious. Yeah, I'm sure to put you on the spot. You can tell me to go to hell if you want, because you probably already and enough trouble, but now I mean I think it's an interesting idea. I'm just not in highly sure, if that's what's happened, here I mean, maybe I guess it maybe would depend on them full of analysis we're talking about here I mean, I think it at a more proximate level. Still so maybe it there

proximate level. It's about you sort of gaining social status in your local environment, but perhaps there are sorted this ultimate evolutionary level like. Why is it that these the steps now that one must take to obtain social status. Yet, yes, they underline like that as the evolutionary recent. Well, that's exactly right here! Well, you also might wonder what messages do women at the peak of their fertility want to broadcast to the community to them as well as well to the men and women for that matter, and it might be I'm carrying person why, Why? Why would you broadcast that that, specifically because looking at all sorts of potential values. You could broadcast right the luxury values, that are selected appear to be ones that are positively associated with compassion meat tilts hard in that direction in height is showed not because liberal types and and and the luxury values that you're describing seem to be associated with progressed

liberalism. Tremendous amount of that is driven by compassion and lack of harm, rather than more conservative values, let's say well, I did see this thirty year fairly. Recently, I think me browse grassroots incomes and author on this, basically showing that broadcasting moral values. I'd dies sorted increase attractiveness to others, and I can't actually remember what the specifics were, but they were sort of involved around social justice about carrying for the oppressed and the downtrodden and so on, and I think the effect was was most pronounced for four men broadcasting. These views and when found this to be particularly attractive. But I could imagine like it. It would go the other way too. Although a lot of these sort of evolutionary psych papers, I've seen consultative meeting psychology, it doesn't

in men, seem especially young man seem most interested in appearance like far far more than any other sort of personality or behavioral Nan Shan among the women, but it's possible what you're saying that. Maybe it's not so much about you trying to trying to impress the man, but maybe just Community as a whole are or their fellow appears, it also might not be a matter of impressing. It might be a matter of a particular form of orientation. Taking a new target mean fur for most of human history. Women who were in between nineteen and twenty five had infants brain ok, so now they don't okay. So then that's not like trip, that's not a trivial transformation, that's a fundamental earthshaking, traumatic, dramatic transformation, and so we would expect to have no political impact whatsoever.

Yeah I mean it's. It does seem to me about it. It's unlikely would have zero effect. I guess my question would be, why now then Why would it I mean? Because women have been going to university now for fifty plus years, making ready they wanted Jordi on dominate. Well, maybe it'd Armenian. I mean, I think they ve tipped past fifty percent, since I think the early ninetys. So why is it now that you know this Eminem? Perhaps you know that's it wine ingredients is the dominance of women on universities. In addition, she may be social media and a few other sort of more recent inventions that, as that of spread this on it will do, is definitely a spike in politically correct beliefs of the sort that you described in the nineties owing to ending right right.

But it had what seem to happen. Then. I think that was when I was teaching in Boston it it bubbled up, but then the economy boom so madly that people seem to be preoccupied by other things for a long period of time, and then it went kind of back underground and I thought well maybe we're done without nonsense to some degree. It. Certainly pop back up more recently and also thirty years, isn't very long. I mean we're looking at massive demographic transformations in distress. Our society, we dont understand me. We already talked about the effective technology of computer technology on on meeting, but we certainly haven't talked about the effectiveness of relatively accessible and effective birth control technology, In all of that we touched on that, but mean these are huge changes that we don't know anything about. I mean even the sort of birth control issue. I mean

It's really interesting to see just like how they have in the discussion around dating has changed so much I mean I remember you know. Doing things from the sort of early twenty tonnes, like twenty twelve. Twenty thirteen about how hookup culture was this great big, Was liberating and I thought, more recently, people are now starting to question that about whether that means you educated people, questioning whether this is good for society and yeah, I mean have you this very interesting article, one from article in Brookings Academy, the author, specifically about reproduction technology and how essentially This has given rise to in some ways to Timor broke homes and their reasoning was that once once reproduction became a biological choice for the mother, then fatherhood big, it may social choice for the man simply

as in the past. If women got pregnant, there were all of these norms in place for the man basically Mary, the woman, unity, sort of shotgun marriages, the community shamed, the man into marrying the women if you stepped out on the woman than you are seen as a deadbeat and so on. There is a lot of taboo in shame around that but beyond what we don't you re dont even know one effect. There is socially, for example, with the presumption that well, if you get pregnant, it's your own fault, because the reliable reproductive prevent technology is at hand. Guenaud unmarried many women who get pregnant, have not taken the pill properly, for example, when so I'm not saying that they should be blamed for that. I am not saying that what I am saying is that it opens the door for attribution of responsibility to the women and we don't know what that effect tat. What effect there is of that on social institutions, That is actually the argument. If I recall from this brookings article, which was that

you know not unnecessarily societal ever was like societies. I do we said well now. If you get pregnancy or fall because of the pill, it was more at a local level. Couples started men started to believe in the neighborhood. The community right started to accept that If a man had sex with a woman and she gets pregnant, man can say to himself well, that's not my problem, that's kind of you are far too because you know you have this magical pill that can never so I have to get it anymore, and I think the local community and the social environment sort of tacitly if if not sort of openly, but at tacitly started to accept this kind of logic is kind of reasoning, and this basically loud mantis gave out on their responsibility by what it's almost inevitable. To accept it. If you accept the proposition that women now have control over the reproductive functions, and we don't want to damp that, like I thought the twentieth century be remembered for three things: hydrogen bomb computer chip, the pill.

Three bombs right. The treat because mean there hasn't been a time in human history where females have control of reproductive functions. It's it's it's the equivalent of almost equivalent to the new species in terms of dramatic biological transformation, someone's gonna someone's gonna edit that part of international doubting. Well good luck to them. It's not like. I don't feel bad for the women who are putting this position. I certainly do they have a tremendous amount to contend with, but you know the the the other thing. That's quite interesting is all of the debates about consent that have emerged on campus and exactly what constitutes consent mean because the the sixties hypothesis, in the wake of the pale, was well sex, doesn't really matter so you know

The consent will do because its now become a trivial endeavour. Gimme Levison theory right just sex well and AIDS, put the blocks to that theory very very rapidly, and you no one likes to talk about this, because there are many things we don't like to talk about, but the AIDS virus mutated to take advantage of promises in a major way, and so promiscuity Jenner promiscuity, distributed AIDS and contributed to the manner matter which it manifested itself and so sex turned out to be as a dangerous force in multiple dimensions. Apart from mere reproductive danger, the other sexually transmitted disease were reasonably controlled with antibiotics. I find it interesting that people are so just reluctant to talk about the importance of sex. As an incentive, I mean there's a lot of discussion in society, for example, about economic incentives, about jobs, professions, economic inequality.

And so on, but there is not much time. About the the role that sex plays. I mean from the sort of evolution, perspective sex has been around since before we were human sacks. Still going to be around long after humans have gone extinct like sex is universal. It's it's. What drives every single species, but we are you surprised at how often we, overlook it as an incentive for behaviour and how fast things are changing in the realm of sex I just saw this statistic from the Washington Post, showing from two thousand eight to two thousand eighteen. The number of sex. The amount of sex listeners among men under the age of thirty has doubled so in two thousand AIDS fifteen. Kind of men under age. Thirty reported not having sex in the past year and bite, you doesn't eighteen it able to about thirty percent and for women it had it it increased slightly with something like ten percent in. The two thousand aids to like fifteen percent in two thousand,

eighteen, so there was an increase, a slight increase, but for men it has doubled. We're about one in three young man, reporting that they haven't had sex in the past year, which is a very new thing, despite the despite the major gaps right that, despite the out, despite even more support, supposedly for sexual freedom. And for Polly Emory Novel relationship arrangements and the further sorted Devaluing of of the importance of sex. More people having less of it, men and women, but especially young men. Yes, my The standing is that damn near epidemic in Japan,. So happening. The tremendous number of young men in Japan are falling into that category and in fact the society has become increasingly sexless. Even among young people, I mean that's reflected to some

in the declining birth rate, but now writing a long time. Since I look looked at the statistics, but that's my understanding, and so if it happened there, it's not surprising that it might happen here not might be a consequence to of this emergent. Polygamy that we were describing is that all the spoils are going to a very few few men course there's also thee D. Also, the effect of pornography which is a substitute, and you know that also I dont know much but lived your on porn honour for use and the relationship between it and an actual sexual activity. I have read some ominous thinks about the increase in failure to achieve erections among young men and that, at least in principle, is consequence of pornography use, but I dont have levelled out any data at that.

Married men are more likely to experience divorce if they watch porn on any about progress here, and it's sort of you know that the more the more progress they use. More likely. They are too to get divorced. I think the address. This is another that meat is a very recent invention to sort of streaming digital pornography. I've heard that researchers are having difficulty even studying this simply because they can't really find a control group, there's there's no young men who don't watch porn at least tat have not been exposed to it, and so this is a very difficult thing for them. Even even road haulage and it's another indication of the emergence of polygamy, because its virtual polygamy We can have an unlimited number of attractive sexual partners. Now it's all virtual bright, but but that, as that is a transformative

Maybe there's more sensitive of nude women in one day than anybody in history would have ever seen in their entire life. Yeah- and I and I see this as the consequences of that is how young people in Iraq now, where there's even these, contests to see how long they can do without watching edge. Almost like it's a game. These sort of communities on Reddit on social media media where they'll sort of tried to go for a month for ninety days or whatever, without watching it, where's exports. Is gay no fat and there I think, On the one hand, it's sort of a game for them, it's a contest on, and I think there is this underlying this underlying beneath the sort of joking around about it. I think there is this view that, like this probably isn't good for us and let's see if we can get off of it, let's see if we can stop

I don't, I don't see like how this isn't changing people I mean I was, I feel very fortunate because I came of age just before you know, sort of fast internet and all of its stuff at start, taking off like right before you tube all of this stuff, and I can imagine that if I was I don't if I was thirteen and all of this stuff, it existed today, I'm sure it would be warping my brain and one way mother I mean between between the internet between social media and then, of course, the digital porn. The end bliss images- I dont know how, like very young boys, are, are dealing with this. This new, this new technology.

While these are all its very difficult for society, structure itself round monogamous norms that took a lot of work and when not taken apart, it's not at all obvious how to put it back together so and it does appear that were seeing the consequences of that they consent issue on campus, I think, is extraordinarily interesting because it isn't what you do. It would have expected didn't what anybody predicted right, we thought with the relaxation of sexual norms that there would be this possibility that sex could become casual, and there is an insistence it's so strange to watch and and this associated with your luxury belief item. Our idea on the one hand, we have this absolute, insistence by the progressive types, essentially especially that any and all form of sexual expression is not only acceptable but to be celebrated, no matter

what the form is, and on the other hand, we have this insistence that sex so dangerous that the culture is best conceptualize as a rape culture, and that every step of sexual interaction between the young man in the young woman needs to be done commanded, like formally and perhaps even in writing, because that has been proposed at some universities and so there's this perversity about the twin insist: that's right! It's all forms of sexual expression are laudable and freeing, yet it so dangerous that every bit of it has to be documented and the fundamental oriented structure is something like rape. I wonder if this has something to do with just sort of socio sexual orientation of you know. Whoever whoever happens to be expanding to believe. So. If you tend to be

a person whose had your heart, broken or had a lot of negative interactions, maybe had the expectation of monogamy, and then you sort of have one too many negative experiences, then you may start to be very preoccupied with the issue of concern. I think that's exactly what happens? I think that so you know we talked about people being shielded from the consequences of their luxury beliefs. And their shielded to some degree robot mice. Suspicions are is that the relationship between sex and emotional intimacy is a lot tighter than people want to presuppose when they insist that all forms of sex Expression are laudable, it's just not the case emotionally and though people, the ones who are who are supporting or promoting the complete sexual freedom. They may just be sort of less sensitive to having negative sexual experiences because, like using all of it, is for all of it is free, there's side, all of it is laudable, and so for them, if they have, you know it

here that someone else my dears negative for them. It's just not a big deal, and so this is why they're that promoting or more conceptual Coty hurries agility different this they could be high and openness say. So it's moratorium loan agreeableness, so you know they're not as their notice so's associated they're, not as likely to form immediate This itself may be connected to your earlier question about sort of the growth in the number of well. Students on campus, I mean there's been trusting research from Sir John Burgess I think I'm getting his name right book called Data on X, where he goes. I guess he discusses at length the role that sex ratios play social interactions for a romantic interactions and basically he founded on campuses. Where there's more wine, then there are men. There is much more hookup culture, women expect to less of the man and they report that

like basically feeling despondent about their chances of getting a boyfriend men, on the other hand, seem to have him much more enjoyable time. They were we're having more sexual partners, feeling more a beach feeling, more hopeful having more hookups and so on, where on university campuses like Caltech, where their attempt to be more men than women is actually the reverse, where women are more likely to have a boyfriend to be more satisfying. With their romantic situation and so on and ambition, The idea I mean- and this has been documented in across cultures and different cities- different societies, and so I am basically the ideas that when there is large number of women and a scarcity of men, women have to compete for that small pool of men, they're more willing to basically modify their behaviour in ways that men find appealing which often times this sort of short term casual sacks,

hookups sort of very casual situations, whereas it when the river versus the case and there's a scarcity of women in a large number of men, then men tend to modify their behaviors to be more oriented toward long term relationships towards commitment and emotional connection and so on, Universities become more dominated by by women and these sort of sexual did there sits at distraction with sexual landscape declines. Then maybe this is related to sum up what we're seeing, of course, maybe with consent and in some of these other social justice issues that were saying that a lot of it may be sort of driven by a sort of dissatisfaction with the romantic landscape and in the way that men are behaving a sense of being exploited, but then I would be interested to know if, in those universities where there is relatively small proportion of men and the men report being more satisfied, I wonder if that's the median or the average.

Right, because I would address the average. You think so, because I was thinking that in those situations it would still be a relatively small minority of men who are getting all the sexual attention. Now they will you livery, I mean. But wouldn't that mean that the mean satisfaction behind the median might yes, that is sorry. You, yes you're exactly right, that's exactly right! So the bee there'd be a fair bit of variation wronged me as well yeah right Jack I would agree with that. I mean it. There's there's a lot of like sorted, interesting findings. I think this was a study from MIT which showed that, like something like half of the graduates, are there male male graduates at MIT Graduate s virgins, and I think that this this pattern, has also been found in other top universities as well, and so this probably goes to this idea that a small number of the men at universities are accumulating

being more while that will go along with the four percent rating four percent description of tender, and so what happens is that where there is a relatively small number of men, that competition between women becomes an incredibly intense, but for a very small fraction of the and because those men have endless short term options, there's no sound action on the female side with regard to anything passed in our short term casual relationship, I thought is really and of amusing study it wasn t any ass of this idea. Sexy selfies, in which countries in which countries are women most likely to post sort of sexual, provocative image of themselves, on the internet and on social media, and so the researchers you know they re put four. There is I policy, one of them was maybe it's maybe it's patriarchy may be in cultures, where women are treated very poorly, they feel like they have to present themselves in a certain way very sexually pocketed poses and so on. But that's not what

You just found. What they found was that in countries where income inequality tends to be high when women are most likely to post, sexy selfies end their their conclusion here was that when women are heating for a shrinking number of highly successful man they're? More likely to pose pocket ways on the internet in the hopes of capturing their attention, which is made But we're saying on on Instagram and on various other social media apps, where I think there is this, the sort it had enough, tilting too it's more more and more to have pornographic adjacent content in hope of capturing more attention and

so I think that a lot of a lot of what we're seeing- maybe maybe due to sorted this- this overlooks topic of of the sexual dynamics in society. So what's been the consequences for you of having pursued this line of thought, we started to touch on that, but we didn't touch tat much it hasn't been. Too bad. You know some people have questioned me on this. I've had some somewhat nasty comments from other graduate students here at Cambridge Social, media stuff, but it really hasn't been that bad, I've, I've actually mats. Quite a number of people who agree with me and who are glad that someone is speaking out about this issue. My actually yeah friends by talking about is openly. I think that this is it

one of those things where people are silent because they're afraid of the reputational cause. But when someone I'll start speaking up, they feel more comfortable sort of coming out of their show more and more. And discussing it, On the other hand, I you know I'm sort of reluctance to. Continue along a career in academia simply because everything that I've seen so many before what I saw at Yale with the aristocracy is part of the reason why I came to. Cambridge there are many reasons, but one of the reasons why I came here was because I thought it would be different let that be sort of social MA being in a sort of student protests, and I thought that Maybe I hoped that it was an american thing and I thought it more If I go to England, things will be car, maybe things earnest political over there and within him or of months to things happened. Wine was you're supposed come here to be researched. Fellow and then you were disappointed because of the student protests, Two. There was a young postal, Noah Carl, who is supposed to be a suitable sock here he was fired because even wrote us as well

and so I thought I'd okay. Well, I come over here open to get away from that and it sort of followed me over here. So maybe this is a sign that I'm supposed to be doing. Some other than that. In remaining within within the at the academy, so once emitters of my de I mean it. I heard you the great refined matter. You know hypothetically, I was DIS invited from Cambridge, because a photograph was taken with me in New Zealand of someone wearing a t, shirt that was critical of Islam. Learn through the grapevine that the decision to decent bite me had been, taken before that had not was used as an excuse, and I am not at all surprised, reliable source, yes

so stunning, stunning, so that all of that it was very costly and painful for me to undergo that- and you know it so peculiar, because I was going to Cambridge hypothetically to talk about biblical stories with the people at the Divinity Centre there and the biblical story electors that I've done. I've been very popular and in a reasonably influential- and you know well received by atheists and religious people alike. So it was a serious academic endeavour and was very difficult to bear the opprobrium. Let's say that was associated with that. I understand that that you know things have perhaps changed for better with regard to such decisions more recently, but it was shocking to meet up to find out that it was based on a lie and yet not ass, a throne, my reputation in order to adapt its it, sir, it's quite something

so, where are you in your phd programme? Now so the king, at my thirty should have one more year and then I will be returning to the states, don't exactly what are we doing but, like I said, probably probably not in the university at that point, yeah. Things have changed so much over the last few years in terms of the political correctness and how reluctant people are to speak out end. I think, gum young I to experience that at the University of Toronto I started to get near. This about talking about sex differences and personality it no one. I was just there. I taught her personality Courson. I published papers on sex differences in personality, so it was actually an area specialization of mine and for years I would lay out the data, which was

somewhat ethic less I dont mean laying it out. I mean the doubt itself is like whether there might be differences between men and women under might not be, but the empirical evidence suggests that, if you add all the personality, differences between men and women together, you can reliably discriminate between whose a man whose women, with woman with about seventy five percent accuracy, which is pretty accurate, but trade by trade, men and women are more alike than different. So yeah, fair enough, and there are two dimensions where the differences particularly manifest themselves sensitivity to negative emotion and agreeable lesson, and so that's that and then those differences are bigger in egalitarian countries than in Non Gallagher, countries which is counter intuitive, and

rising and shocking and interest. Since I talk to you for diatribe characteristics by the way, so psychopathy narcissism, Machiavellian ISM, the gender gap is larger and more egalitarian cultures. You may be surprised. You know that, but I found that pretty interesting. I mean a sort of falls in line with all the other researcher describing yeah. It's very interesting that more egalitarian policies magnify someday Frances at the ameliorate in Scandinavia. The preferred age gap between women man is somewhat smaller than economic military countries, so there are some through some ah phenomena that do modified towards

quality with egalitarian social policies, but lot don't anyways. I start to get nervous about lecturing about those sorts of things. I said I thought visa, I'm nervous about this. Isn't that strange and part of it was because I did have some female students who came up to me after lectures and who were offended. You know they were snoopy in and sarcastic, and that very rarely happen to me, and so it was quite market in oh I'd. Have the odd hybrid this type stop out of my first class even a few years ago. Just as you know, demonstration of sorts, but that that really meant nothing. But and then my graduate students started telling me that they were very nervous about discussing anything to do with sex differences and the women, particularly in, and so that that started to become

worrisome. So and what do you see happening in in Cambridge once had like? Therefore, you I mean well, will really it's been spent, very strict locked out over the last fifteen last month, but before that wasn't- you know, wasn't bad. I was, I was still fairly open and with my views you know I wrote I defended you and adopted in the New York Times. I've written luxury believes your laundry. I have not been not necessarily withheld my views, fortunately within NATO, Morgan. I haven't had much of an issue. I think a site departing ears very solid, but in a more broadly the culture the campus culture is now about the same as it is anywhere else. I sort of people are are afraid. I had a conversation with the professor here last year, I have lunch with Germany. It was interestingly told He said that

not necessarily that the faculty agree with a lot of this sort of extreme political movements that are going on, but they just want to be left alone They just want to do their work. They just want to do the research yeah and if a bunch of social mobs come after them and say you know, you better sign a petition then you better say: there's we'd, better post that they just want to, and get get these people out of their lives, get it out their hair and so they're. Not there. Now ideologues, many of them probably most of are not, but they just want a sort of get back to their lives and they'll just do whatever they have to their selected. For that I mean to become an academic research academic you have to be Sesar about some specialization and you have to wall yourself off from everything else and pursue that because otherwise you not publishing year three papers a year, whatever it requires to maintain year, academic staff

it takes a tremendous amount of specialization, and so we set up universities to put up walls around people who were willing to specialise, so they could do exactly that, but its laid them open to invasion by people who have a political agenda and that's often failed researchers who become met administrators, for example, and who are interest it in power, which is pretty much what they talk about all the time as well, and so I mean I seen faculty are in some sense powerless by place in some ways against these kinds of demands that you're describing. But it's also a consequence of the selection methods that produce them to begin with, and the purpose of adversity. I had a friend here who was very active online and social media, so he was graduate fiscal gradually came years, gets Cambridge scalded into research and enacting biochemistry or something, and he

do something online about his views on a a life person and in his speech the supervisor and people in his department we're getting all kinds of cod as you know, saying that they had to let him go that they should fire him. We need a kick him out of here. Bridge and so on, and you know they basically maiden come out, but they told them like you have to take on their social media account, because we just cannot have people constantly calling and emailing and harassing, and so on the activist Make it so costly to have an opinion that people just sort of you know they sort of silence themselves. You know why. Why would you want to get involved? They just sort of acquiesce to it, not because they agree, but just because they don't want to have to deal with the burden, and it's very its I mean it's a sort of clever strategy. I think, on on the part of the activists that something that I'm interested in tourism, like hoo hoo, tends to be attracted to those movements

and how effective they are. I mean I've seen academic papers retracted, because the Journal editor unity posted something like you know. We had to withdraw this paper because the journal editor received credible threats of physical violence You can literally threatened to kill the journal editor and then we'll just take take out whatever paper you want him to take out. I mean it's, it's very interesting to see that This is what the living in here while its note its no joke to be targeted like that, and it's not surprisingly, people down really hard or I may is understandable, yeah I'd- I do begrudge anyone fervour for doing it's a lot of people, don't get any they just have the stomach to deal with with that level of of notoriety controversy the way that you and others have yeah well, isn't obvious that I've dealt with it either. So I'm still here attacks, but all I'd say about it. It certainly has been: it's been terrible, so I took your personality test and shortly after it

it came out when you still have the discount going and escort in the night. Central in agreeableness? So I think that my have something to do with why I'm ok, with with in a sort of taking on some of this heap. Yeah yeah. Well, the thing about disagreeable people is that they will say what they think: yeah yeah yeah yeah. So was that compassion, politeness guide, it was it was. It was very low on politeness and a little higher on compassion, but still like pretty well on both average doubter tonight presentable.

So I am every time I mean you know a little more compassionate than I am polite who, while one in ten years- and you know, isn't that low, really all things considered so, but but that would explain that would explain your willingness to take. Can't confrontational positions are adversarial positions, let's say well. Obviously you also believed that there you know that you're relating something that is true, so we don't know how much moral courage it takes in what personality attributes are shaping the ability to voice unpopular truths, but I suspect disagreeableness has something to do with it at the strange in my case, because I'm very agree. Less turns out, but which is probably why pay a high price for doing it? Even though I do it it's interesting yeah I was yeah, I mean I got in the water trouble in school ass. A kid I am yea just always had this sort of disposition.

Two to the to question rules in and so on, and fortunately, overtime was able to get it under control To some extent I got pretty high conscientiousness, which may be part of why I was able to land where is landed, but I It was our lawns acuteness path, tat to get here right here. Well, conscientiousness is called a virtue, but its tends to pay off in the long run. So what do you think you're going to do when you finish your degree usually said you're, not I'm interested in pursuing an academic path, yeah I dwell. My book is supposed to come out later next year's near the end of next year and I'll, probably spending a lot of time promoting bats and yeah? I I don't know I do enjoy research, writing teaching all others thing. So, in what capacity I can continue do that, whether its working at a think tank, our boy, you just going full, independent and and sort of start

my own channel, or something like that and now to speak Can you in writing and ends sharing my using in one way or another, although not exactly sure what form that'll take well, it was really good talking with you today. I thought the discussion was moved along at a great clip agenda. I appreciated your viewpoints in your candor, all of that and learned a fair bit as a consequence of talking to you and so much appreciated. Likewise, thank you, doctor Pearson. You bet you bet good to meet you maybe we'll meet up in Cambridge. If I ever come there, let's do it.