Welcome to season for episode. Thirty one of the Jordan Be Petersen Podcast, I Mikhail Pearson, and this episode my dad is joined by Doktor Scott Bury Kaufman, a cognitive scientists, exploring the limits of human potential. He host a very popular podcast called the psychology gasped and as an author, editor and co, editor of nine books, including his newest, transcend the new science of self actual accusation. Doktor Scott Kaufmann and Jordan spoke about cognitive science, behavioral studies, humanism, they also discussed. I Q tests personality tests, aggression in higher Turkey's dating intelligence, self, actual accusation, long for media, of course, and more I hope you enjoy. This episode

hello, everyone Doktor, Scott, very Kaufman. My guest today is a many scientists exploring limits of human potential? He received his phd and cognitive signs from Yale University and is taught courses on intelligence, creativity well being at Columbia. And why are you, the University of Pencil India and elsewhere. He hosts a very popular podcast. The psychology podcast end is off or editor or co editor of nine books, including his newest, transcend the news science of self actual accusation published in twenty two

in just out in paper back as of April of twenty twenty one he wrote wired create unravelling the mysteries of the creative mind with Carolyn Gregoire in two thousand and sixteen and on gifted intelligence. Defined in two thousand and thirteen written major academic works as well with Robert Sternberg, he collected the Cambridge Handbook intelligence in two thousand and eleven, which is a major academic text. He also edited the complexity of greatness in two thousand and thirteen, which brought together leading scholars to discuss and debate the relative contributions of biology and society in determining creativity in two thousand fifteen. He was named. One of fifty grew breaking scientists who are changing the way we see the world by business. Insider doktor, Kaufman. Thank you for coming on my podcast doktor Peterson,

it's great to be here. I've been looking for this tat stood to see a. We actually have couple publications together, aid from few years back and and so, but we ve crazy enough. Never sat down and had a lengthy discussion. So hopefully, today will have an opportunity to rectify that. So, first of all, maybe you could tell everyone just exactly what a cognitive scientist is I think the important thing to recognise about cognisance as it's an interdisciplinary field, so it doesn't just involves quality, but it brings in philosophers and it brings in scientists it brings in complete. for scientists to all kind of down at the table and figure out what is the mind and what are the functions of the of the human mind? What are the limits of the human mind? How does the nervous system represent mind? So, basically, everything have do it mind, but the tray interdisciplinary, and that does

But really it was exciting to me about it. When I got into it I D undergrad Carnegie melanin. I did a computer science degree and I did a cognisance degree and it was really exciting to me too kind of figure how all these different things can be integrated with each other in how did cognitive scientists two's at least technically more into stood. Let's say in the mechanics of thought and an abstract commission. How did you come to be trusted in the humanist tradition, which is the focus of this book, which we're going to talk about unfair detail today, it is an obvious that those things have any necessary interrelationships. So what happened not at all obvious, while also as a kid. I grew up with a real, deep fascination for understanding individual differences. I mean our member just being a very young kid working on

playground and wondering why someone could so effortlessly go in the jungle, Jim and white lie. I was so awkward and and ass. I had some early learning difficulties that made me try to understand what the limits of my own down limits. Amount potential were so that the interest they got me to the field was human intelligence and I realized, after enough years in the field and once my interest brought into creativity, which is that the work we did together was on creativity, renouncing grad school. in there now self accusation. Humanism, I realise that what I was really interested in was human potential, not intelligence, intelligence I thought was the bees and all of human potential and then what I ve learned Come to realize you know throughout my career. Is that that wasn't? That was just the beginning, my golden Francis Golden who, in sent pioneered. The psychiatric study of IQ was also interested in human potent So I would say so. In some sense,

to return to the source, and it is easy to confuse intelligence with well whole range of human talent, inability and an differentiating, all those different concepts and and placing them in the proper relation. Chip to one another and identifying them for study is no trivial thing, so you worked. You worked up a fair bit on intelligence per se. so my junior year in college, was so curious about intelligence that I called emailed, Nicholas Mackintosh, who was the head of the department, invasive keyboard and I said, can take a year off my undergrad of studies and just we teach me everything about IQ reaches me everything there is no about, like we nonetheless hundred years about intelligence, and so he into my excitement he responded. My Emily said sure come over, and so I packed bags and went to England evolves, and this didn't count as a study abroad programme. There was no stable programmes. I just know it

car email and I'm going off to England to study intelligence and additives, Isaak, saying to me to be able to learn. How long are you twenty years? probably- and he responded to called letter and invited you over. I must have their- I think that he might have been oppressed with someone like. I was heard, Simons last research assistant at that time as well, and but I think there are limits to what I was understandable. Intelligence through the expertise approach, allows warning from her Simon. I thought as though Meda was when you go. Intelligent cells warning about expertise, acquisition and I didn't think there that's exactly the same thing so anyway. Yes, he must have. He must have an impression that email I mean I was a real I was really I think the word and enterprising young man. I don't want to, I think, of the right word. You know I was like really excited too to learn this stuff furious an enthusiastic there. I want and obviously able to communicate that. So you went over to England and you work with a cycle nutrition and

with someone who was very interested in the formalities of measurement and careful definition of intelligence what and and Did you learn as a consequence of doing now about intelligence a bunch of things. One one important thing I learned is that intelligence has multiple general colleague of mechanisms which contribute or give rise to a general intelligence kind of function somebody in others, this debate in the field about whether not g or general intelligence is the thing that is calls all things in the world or of its an emergent properties of things, and I weren't a little bit about this view that it it it's an emergent properties of these dimensions. Mechanisms and the biggest one which captivate my attention was working memory at that time and then quickly. Let me doing and being interested in differences

in sex differences, sex differences in working memory- and I came up with a hypothesis when I was working with him in college about that which then led me to getting starting with him for a masters degree actually test that I bought this show. Let's walk over this psycho metric view about in worse still say some of the things that I think I know one. You can tell me if, if they are out of date or Europe, convinced that there are only us in some way. So essentially, what cycle metricians have discovered, is an established and, I think more credibly than any psychologists have established any other phenomenon within the field of psychology is that there is a common man can ism or an emergent property that appears to characterize tv in relationship to virtually any set of abstractions. So if you, if you together a random set of questions that require abstraction to solve, so they could be mathematical ginger general knowledge or vocabulary, the sort of

even that you might encounter well playing trivial pursuit and you put it there are reasonable set of those, and then you add up the correct wars and you rank ordered them across all the people who ve taken that particular task. You get something that is a pretty accurate estimate of IQ that sent tendency. It's that powerful and that's related who long term life success in in in attainment. Let's say economic attained and career attainment that accounts for about twenty five percent. Of the variation between people in the differences in attainment. Is that that seem roughly anything I've out. I would I would do it yes end if this was in propaganda, ascendancy central concept in this is that the idea of the positive manifold, because it's really interesting, and this was Charles specimens. You know discovery. Nineteen o four, it's interesting that people who

the do well on one of these kinds of test- tend to do well on other of these kinds of tests and the thing that, which is, why thought the expertise acquisition approach? I was already in college and fully explain- is that we're talking even with lacking expertise in in like you, Cuba s items abstraction like he mentioned there, their lack of expertise, and yet there possibly correlate with each other, and I didn't have to be that way, right right, Jordan, because one could have proposed well more. You specialise in one thing. The worst she'll be another things because devoting all your time attention to one thing, but instead we find that actually, there is still some general cognitive mechanisms that apply to any task and even novel, especially at which they essentially the knowledge tat right. I guess it's in its it. It actually predicts learning new abstractions better than predicts were real world performance and we I also know that the level of

accuracy is stunning compared to the predictive accuracy of virtually anything. Any social scientists have discovered, apart from my cue tweeted that out the other day. I said it's astounding to me when people say so matter. Factly like iq test are and valid when it is we the most valid test. We haven't psychology and that, of course, got a lot of comments like well that that, therefore, that just shows your whole field. A shit, that's completely wrong, because the effect sizes in psychology develop defect sizes are are what would you call them in So when you compare psychology to other disciplines of its cadigan of generalization say so the idea that the I feel this nonsense is, is only put forth by people who don't have and she hated understanding of the field or of the social Sciences that it might be compared with a psychology are the most sophisticated methodology, spot far and all the social scientists sizes as far as I'm concerned so yeah there.

using this misunderstanding or this expectation of psychology that were supposed to be perfectly reliable, there are supposed to have perfect reliability of humans and I don't think a psychologist endeavours claimed to have at a certain level of precision. I mean, of course, a lot of people going to fall between the cracks with ease q, test and and and I'm interested in those people too. I mean, for. I am also interested in the statistical generalisations and the implications for society. I mean you can hold both things in your mind at one time. Yes, woman, you It also point out that accounting for twenty five years, and of the variation in some thing as complex as life attained, is unbelievably impressive, especially given how much effect random factor have on determining those outcomes like well like health, for example, like physical and mental health,

while in situational variables like the state of the economy, etc, etc. The availability of educational resources across all that variability. You still get this incredibly impressive prediction of this single factor and we could also point out for everyone that you know you might think that people have good purpose, nowadays and bad personalities in some sense that you need dimensional, but if you do the same state cycle analysis with a set of personality questions that you would conduct on a set of abstract questions. You get five factors, not one, so it isn't, isn't necessarily the case at all that something will simply fi down to a single factor, but that's profoundly the case with IQ. The other thing that is worth pointing out is that bad is IQ. Tests might be given that there is much they don't explain their far better than

the other method we have of assessing potential for, let's say, cognitive, growth and acquisition. So if you want to predict how well someone's going to do in academic environment, then there isn't anything that even comes close to the accuracy of an iq test and also to the unbiased. It's also unbiased, compared to all other forms of measurement, show, so ok, so you learned the lesson in in England, but you weren't, you weren't, satisfied with the expertise approach and you so you became a master of the psychiatric approach and learned that literature, but that also didn't this far you why not yeah so, I really- and I felt this in my bones just intuitively when I was in college, even software in college. I was reading brother rather successful intelligence by Robert Sternberg and I felt as though creativity wasn't the same thing as intelligence. I feel that was this thing that I felt to be true, that I

you know I didn't know, there is a whole field until I started reading cod psychology is well. I took a course in cotton psychology, my sophomore year with an faint and got to the chapter on intelligence and stern bricks, textbook, which talks about the the psychological, torture and creativity, and that really excited me, and I and I felt like there is. There is more to the story than just I q and by the way, Macintosh would definitely agree with that. He he unfortunately passed away a copyright. But you know if he were alive, I'm he would definitely agree completely and he has in our conversations it's almost like people in port ideas on IQ researchers that they never said you know like like you, research did. I ever know I have ever known, has said the like that I q is a perfect predictor of everything right. You know. hang on to intend to be ecologically conservative in their estimates of, I guess potential for prediction? What you're also

strange position: intellectually unique position in some sense because you worked with one of the leading symmetric scholars who help develop The idea of the general single factor of intelligence IQ essentially, but you also worked with Robert Sternberg, who was one of the people in the. nineties in particular, and in the aid as well, who mountain a challenge to the idea of a unitary intelligence. I would say it was him an agenda, our gardener at the Harvard School of of education, factly education that start to develop theories of multiple intelligence, essentially and so well. So what did you concluded consequence of being exposed to both of those sets of ideas. This episode is sponsored by pulling cast blankets as a super, convened

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you are quite right- it's a race to point- I must say they had a great affection for each other. I remember we invited Bob We call Roberts hurry Bob over to Cambridge to give a talk at that. Cambridge ones are members all all of us walking the garden me Nick and Bob and end and Bob Criticising, I remember vividly Bob was criticising neuroscience and saying it's so reductionist. Stick like its showing us nothing about intelligence and and Nick was poorer, pushing back, but I feel it there the great affection core among all of us. I think that what I really learned from all these perspectives is that we need to stop thinking about all the stuff in either or terms do a lot more integration. In thinking about these topics, which I am sure we could talk about when we get to the hierarchy of needs because believe it or not, this is related. Is that we need to be. We need to think of the stuff more in terms of integrated hierarchies than in terms of binaries or or do desperate constructs that are completely contextual of each other, so

More I got into the more. I realized how the interesting questions were when you combine intelligent and creativity. You know when you combined and when you start looking at the world sufferance as I am, I published a paper with Roger Beady, whose real leading star in the neuroscience field, showing that both the executive attention network and the default mode network, which is more way to create video our imagination when they are cobbled together. You see the greatest sources of creativity, so it doesn't make any sense to kind of you these things a separate, but each one do make their unique contributions if that makes sense. Ok, so, let's, let's go back momentum early to the Sternberg and psychiatric debate. So I was really interested and have remained interested in measurement when it when I ain't did all those ideas? I was trying to predict success in complex and garments, academic environments, like the University of Toronto and and Harvard and also in business environment- and I was trying to extend the prediction that was capable

I q, and so I was scarring literature looking for reliably measurable methods of assessing anything that would predict achievement and then also liable measures of achievement which, which is its separate problem, but what I found lacking with Sternberg, and gardener in particular, was that I could never derive anything of of practical measures. utility from their work and- and I couldn't find anything in if that would allow me to add two predictive validity now. I also at that time was studying the big five personality factors and became quite clear that there was something in that that was actually measurable so to even to predict academic formats. If you use, I q essentially and the OECD and else out and all those standardized s fall into that category, even though the makers deny that quite frequently they do conch,

Consciousness is a good additional predictor and we looked at prediction of performance in graduate school and openness, which is the creativity dimension talk about, didn't predict at all. It was actually slightly negatively predicted with graduates graduate school performance, publications and so on, but we did. find that a combination of neural psychological tests, Bay equally assessing executive function. Put ads, something to IQ, maybe depending on how you did the analysis, but conscientiousness definitely did, but I couldn't extra, anything out of the multiple intelligence, Literature- and so am I That was a fatal flaw actually of that literature because from a scientific perspective- and I also think from a reasonable, critical intellectual perspective, if you can't extract out anything of measurable value. Then, what's the evident? What's the evidence that you asked you have something other than something conceptual, and so you must have run across the same

problem. When you were trying to stand out from IQ, I dare not be I'll, be very born about this went into the field so excited about. There is a multiple intelligences and wants it started studying the sub Stein. Typically, I became seduced by the I don't know. I don't allow us to say why not say how bout horribly impacted by the truth. That was my experience with IQ. It was like, oh, my God, go away, no matter what you do and it is our solitary and it's been well measured and it's really hard to add to it Everything else is bad in comparison, its. It was quite a shock to me. The testing is so once I started studying this stuff, wouldn't wouldn't with Nick. You know you need to print. Since you look at like people too tense to measure Gardner's, multiple intelligences and in every single instance, you be able to still extract a g factor and there. It there's no, and I come to the conclusion that

as long as you're, activating consciousness to any degree whatsoever. You're going it's gonna, be g load I would add that the task you're doing is gonna bring in working memory. Processes is gonna bring in some other. Like general, social learning was another process we introduced. Obviously, the field has stayed associate learning, but Nick and I published a paper showing that we could adapt. Some of those measures that have been used in the behaviour of Soda Turkey's Nicholas is what most well known for its behavioral research. We were able adapting these social learning measures to predict g, very just as well as working memory, for instance, so we found there there's the there are the janitor cognitive that won't go away like you can have whatever, whatever theory want to propose a multiple challenges. These general, the mechanisms, you can't sweet them under the right. So if you laid out up a number of hypothetical general or multiple intelligence measures, and they, should anything that had to do with abstraction, and you now have reached across them what you'd exit essentially get us.

Proxy for I q. If you got anything at all and what really well stung me was that we couldn't ad. Nothing additional to that even we added huge battery of neural psychological test derived from the neural psych literature, not from the psychiatric literature, was all clinical tests, mostly developed at the Montreal neurological statute. We had a whole large battery and computerized them and added them too. I q measures that we had, if who used I q and a neural psych measures separately in an equation. They would both contribute, but if you did a factor analysis and extracted out one factor which will essentially be the average, then that factor was the best predictors I could never find out from my own research whether we had just expanded the deafening of IQ slightly in terms of its prey de validity or whether the Neuro psychologists we're onto something, but it was striking to me that even these tests derived from purely political literature that wasn't it

by the I tradition and was actually opposed to it is still ended. Up doing exactly the same thing. I was told me students- and you tell me what you think about this- that it was forbidden in my lab to study anything without also out. Can I q measure because, as a converter, at least as a co, very it because it seemed- and I also think the same thing about big five personality for for whatever that's worth is like. We know oh that iq exists it this, or at least as much as anything social scientists have ever discovered exists. So if you're starting any, complex phenomena. The first thing you should do is get what you already know out of the way and that made it search in my lab much more difficult, because we get results from some measure and then that would be hypothetically b blissful. But then, as soon as we added the IQ measures and the personality measures, it would almost always kill like we looked at values, as predicted, for example, of academic chief and there's well developed values, literature, but we could kill that in

gently with IQ in and personality, and I can't get it I understand why the field would accept that what we analogy it's it's almost it it's. I think it's analogous to the fact that all these environmental determinants of acts papers don't never use genes is called area. You know it's like things change one's once you start include genes is a cool variant. Then you find some of these effects trop away and interesting it's like we don't even want to know the truth. It opens its and insert inserted certain circumstances. You know I've thought about that two weeks, not surprising that people don't want to know the truth about IQ, because it's it's quite nasty mean there are huge differences between people in their intrinsic ability to learn, and that has met warping economic and social consequences, and so there's theirs bitterness in that fits. I mean, I think we still have to address it and take it seriously, but you know so for me, it's, like I q,

does the liberal em, the conservative political perspectives, incredible damage because the conserving are likely to say well, there's a job for everyone if they just get up and then you know get at it and the liberals liked they, while everybody can be trained to do everything in both of those are wrong because there's an there's a large number of people who are not who have enough trouble with abstraction that finding a productive job in a complex society has become extraordinarily difficult, a huge problem, and- and we have no idea what to do with it- we won't even look at it with something I would like this discussion if that's ok as some of the limits of IQ test, especially Neuro, diverse people, because I and it's my own research- I states nickel twice. Exceptionally. Actually I added a book called twice exceptionally supporting bright and creative,

as for the warning disabilities, sometimes their intelligence there. I there there very intelligent, but sometimes because their executive function dysfunctions like with aid individually it doesn't show up in an iq test. So I do want to still leave that window open for us to what's happening. Thirdly, enough look there's as and as we already pointed out, I queues covering twenty five percent of the relative relevant territory. are by no means perfect, and there are people who are measured, whose capacity is measured improperly within Iqs, no doubt about that so and end Other factors play an important role like conscientiousness, but it's only about at least as far as we can measure it, We can only really measure it still with self report or other report personality test. It adds about its only about a third. Is powerful if that of, as I keep this hell, I put it. They work it's really hard to get a extremely high iq score by accident There are many reasons why perhaps someone bombed and IQ test that could happen?

with every variants. Another fact right, but three heart like if you get a hundred sixty IQ genuine honestly, you didn't cheat it's hard. It likes accidently stumble into the right answers loosely gathered a good way of looking at it. The idea that that it's the low scores they contain the errors, and fairer knots, and that should be intended to not least because we don't ever want to deny anybody with potential the possibility of all of that and sharing it with everyone else, but it didn't know it so many universities now are moving away from the US eighteen, let's say and and and because they, because of their perceived and actual shortcomings, but my problem without is that whatever there? placed with is likely to be way worse on virtually every imaginable dimension so we'll see how that all plays out. Ok, so grip, while another reason why the topic is radioactive, of course is because every time we talk about IQ differences

Oh they're there had merely goes to group differences and work, I just want to clarify we're doing, but individual differences, that's more, that's what we ve talked about. So far, do you wanna mean, and you can't automatically extrapolate you're. Even when I use the word genes, people scared of the word genes like like it. That should be the most uncontroversial thing in the world in the fact that for individuals, individual our genes play some influence, we wouldn't want an environmentally deterministic world that would be horrible. We don't wanna economy that people are. I think that through you know, so I just wanted to clarify we're talking about a pseudo individual, individual level. We're not talking we're, not extrapolate. This intergroup different cells are also talking about it and look at it comparative level. It's like, while the IQ casting process is imperfect right well, compared to what you have to come up with a better alternative. You can't just say this isn't good enough. It's like compared to what we can't. We could ask. And people to universities randomly and like like so up and you couldn't,

imagine that your your first year, students, anybody could attend first year, and then you used first your grades to decide who got to continue. You could see that you make a coherent social policy based on that. That would give everyone a shot and then would allow those who succeeded in the actual enterprise to grass now be very expensive in the first year, but that might be beneficial ways to expose everyone to that kind of education, but you can't do that and continue up to the higher strata spheres of intellectual endeavour, because the people who pursue that have to be able to do it so well. so we're stuck with it, but we won't have a serious discussion of it, and it's really really unfortunate I also call on Cuba we found in our own paper that I q was. It was entirely on correlated with artistic creative achievement, and I have always been kind of interests and what to do with that, because

it's a seems like openness to experience in some of these other cognitions like I stayed in puss learning, and I found that was Corleone. artistic, achieving and wait and reduce lean inhibition. There were the great work you did a shallow Carson. I replicated some of that. So I think there's more the story if we hope we will what what Fyodor we try to predict yet with openness dimension is of extreme interest and and and because there is something to the personality, trade, openness that seems to be related, as you pointed out, to creative achievement, but also to to not so not even so necessarily so much artistic achievement, but even to enterprise achievement like entrepreneurial ability. We found to step down, I never published I used privately. We found a pretty pronounced relations between openness to experience and entrepreneurial ability, practical entrepreneurial ability, and, as

As you well know, that seems to have that openness seems to have something to do with perceptual differences, so open people are, they have anything have a broader perceptual arrange something like that and they're their more emotionally impacted by their perceptions, to their more likely to experience off they're, more likely to be compelled and grip, by ideas. There more likely to be curious. There more likely to engage in associated thinking so concept. Remind them of a range of distantly related concept some more than someone who's, more constrain. Think they're more like to have inside experiences and- and there is something to them- that's not purely reducible to iq because you can be haven't, I argue and be known. Creative. It's after lightly, but not only that like this this turn again to transcend stuff. When you said the word all a dvd that then it start again to my new research, because you know I can walk. I can buy

hop over dataset renowned, sorry that I q is growing zero with the extent to which are going to experience all in your daily life, but openness to experiences very strongly correlated with that right now, what do you make of that? What what do you think? What do you think about when we open without professional exchanges on this topic? But I haven't talked you for years- Where's your thinking going with real in relationship to openness, to experience- and you know can be transformed by suicide, but mushroom experiences right brought Griffith that one standard deviation increasing openness. One year later after one mystical experience, stunning, profound neurological transformation and Catherine Mix. in as well as has showed that very large effects, I'm very very interested in the linkage between openness to experience and self transcendent experiences it does seem like certain personality structures are more likely to expect

and absorption. So I think the major link there and probably bridge here is is the is the the under discuss topic in in putting the public of because people talk about flow. But two: djinns absorption construct is not the same thing as as Mihai Chicks sent me highs flow construct, and I think that when we take will, to experience. I think it is quite linked to these altered states of consciousness and susceptibility to even hypnotists ability. You know this guy willingness to take it to go to dip your toe into the sea of madness. I would say: do you suppose so? So? Do you suppose that the capacity to embody multiple personalities in some senses. The key aspect too, to openness in old because were and credible mimics, and I want to talk to you- the relationship between mimicry and all because I think more is the manifestation of the instinct to mimic, but I've watched creative people play me.

For example, I remember one guitarist I was watching and he was jamming and he was very expert out at and it was unbelievably interesting to watch and listen to him at the same time, because you could see one second he'd be like a black female, spill singer from the ninety thirties and the next second he'd be like Morrison from the doors and You can see all these musical influences that that are inhabited in and he was playing with them constantly and it's like watching a shape. Shifter and you know our capacity for abstract into abstraction means that we can think of abstractions, which our representations of ourselves in some sense and then assess their percent, since in their actions before we implement them- and I wonder if open people are, are able to be more people in some way because I've also nothing so, you think,

I think, there's something I think there's a. I actually tested this hypothesis. In this sense, I look to see whether not people who were scored higher in open experience were more likely to have on reliability in their big five character. Structural time. Oh that's! It I found that they didn't get. They didn't. You found out, ok yeah. That means from me went to moment their personality and over what span of time over from month to month idea I didn't do accept like experience sampling, which would be that we really cool, but just over a period of couple months, for an ok so just to clarify that personality, like IQ personalities, quite stable across time. What do you see across time? Is that pay? maintain their personality structures, but they become more agreeable, less neurotic, so less characterized by negative emotion, and more conscientious, as they age showed. Those all seem like good things hypothetically, but your point is that if you take, people are high and openness to experience which is this creativity, dimension, their personalities, or less stable across time

so younger fat accounts to some degree, for the oft remarked upon hypothetical association between creativity and instability, you can imagine your high and openness and your high in IRAN assist that's a problem because you have personality variability. That's an intrinsic part of you, but that in some ways that's gonna be harder on you, because that very he's going to make things more unpredictable? I've heard of up, so open people have a hard time, catalyzing a single identity and so that be hard on them, I couldn't agree more with what you're saying and- and I think that there are some really cool things when you actually look at the interaction effects. You know that's what's really call you know, especially, but what I would I guess I would call paradoxical traits you know like you know, because you work general correlation structure, but then what? If? What, if person, you know really bucks those general correlation structure trends. What's the word for that, I've been trying to come up with a term for that. You know like most people who are

and she or conscientious, I guess- tend to be what less, what in the journal population will probably less neurotic, but what a fear Heine erotic and your high conscientious duchess one exonerate there are lots of these other kinds of paradoxical traits that I think are worth studying in more depth. So those be singular people in some sense, so right right, so high, orderly, high openness would be an example of that to what is it France's me meet me. I gotta Hitler, all oh, no, arbitrary, orderly! Very I wasn't you see, I'm I'm I'm not those traits, but but here's something. I am that's paradoxical and maybe you are too. I don't know I'd like to hear that I spoke very high and artistic like trait skills, but also square very high and skeezer tippy like skills. So something that in the general population, as are very strongly negatively correlated with each other, but how in the world at my high in both those things I think you might behind. But those things do you think that mediated by openness?

maybe maybe maybe that's what it comes down to is that had been So I wonder, like I used to see my kid come o my son. What when, when he was young he'd, come home after playing with kids and he would be inhabited by one of the kids personalities and often was a brandy child, and so he come home with this whole bag of tricks, and it wasn't just one thing that he would experiment with. It was like he'd picked up the whole, patterns of behaviour from that play experience come home and try out new tricks, and I wonder has anybody ever assess to see if open, people are better or faster mimics, because absorption magic. Imagine two things. Okay, so imagine, first of all that you have this capacity for all, and so what that does you meet someone whose very impressive, and so there's expire

of all that goes along with that. Now you should mimic someone who's impressive, because if your judgment of their oppressiveness is accurate than you could be more impressive, if you were more like them, so imagine that there is an instinct towards all inspired imitation. Ok. Now, if you are also very high and absorption, you would get into that, and may I think that's probably what happening to open people in movies, because they sink really deeply into the movies, their entranced by the more the fictional universe, and so they can be possessed by alternative personalities and then and that and of course that's what we want and actors of. Obviously right. We want people, were possessed by alternative personalities, tact amount for us and there's no real because you see one of the things psychologists, don't study enough as far as conservatives imitation? so fundamental. Well, here's a here's! A maybe a far out link decent people who

and openness are more likely to be ideologically possessed. Have your that linkage I mean, I don't know if there is something interesting there, but there might be to the extent to which people who were hired openness tend to be more likely to have contagion of other people's emotions, and I d raise maybe have I mean that began well. I guess I'd I'd, think two things about that: the the the if your open, your more easily possessed line of reasoning which suggest that but the if you open your likely blow through arbitrary cognitive barriers, would act negatively towards that. So maybe may What you might see is that who the hell knows that hi openness. Teenagers are likely to be ideologically possessed but too to not be later. Rights, be yeah, yeah yeah, because- The mechanism would lead them to that in the in the early development would lead them out of that as they mature.

moderator- and maybe I accuse moderator of office- maybe is going well and little circle. Well, that's a tough one took as you know it it. I suspect that I would suspect again in adolescence, higher iq would would be a pretty, Europe more radiological possession, because because well. Imagine that you, you have to be relatively smart to be interested in Poland. The issues of political abstraction soldiers. It's a precondition and then what you first start being interested, but you're not can be very sophisticated, so an idiot Ology is likely what you're going to adopt. One be it's the intellect facet. You know cause the openness to experience your pine. You pioneer this work, which I carried forward in my graduate work, there's important distinction of at the aspect level between intellectual curiosity and openness.

Experience more having to do with the actual experiential aspect of it, and so maybe the intellectual curiosity part is a modified their even more so than I q right. You know while I am I mean all found so far in your investigations of openness and political view, is that it's a death, Thirdly, an end, it is only our lab. Obviously we didn't originate this idea for that matter. Openness is definitely a predictor of live rule and left leaning, political proclivity, that's that's clearer and and that those along with a compared interest in fiction say versus nonfiction, and it's definitely temperamental and I've been thinking. Tell me what you think about this. So you know that, openness and conscientiousness are the best to predictors of political belief. Ok, so there might ask in? This goes along with your interested interactions. Is why who the hell is it openness and conscientiousness relatively uncoordinated

rates? You know why isn't it openness, neurotic autism are or or more or extra version and agreeable this. Why those two, why political so I've been thinking, I think it has to do with borders, and I've been influenced in my thinking by all the new literature on the relationship between contagious disease and political belief, so there's a huge literature. This is the only sure I've ever seen that has effects sizes approximating those of iq with you measure the prevalence of infectious disease at the city, state provincial or country level, you find that there is warping correlation with authoritarian attitudes. Like point seven, it's ridiculous, its massive and there's some association there with disgust sensitivity, although that hasn't been completely pulled out, So so imagine this is magic that the open

type so the liberal types they want the free flow of information, so they don't like barriers. They don't like borders between anything. They don't like borders between concepts. They don't like borders between genders. They don't like borders because it interferes with the free flow of information, but the cost of the free flow borderless free flow is contamination, and so and they're both right you open the borders, but look what happened last year international or to an international society. So we have an international pandemic, so you open up the doors to information flow. You also open the doors to contamination- and- I would say that's true, biologically end- aviation really as well, so that the analogy so that's why those two things combined do determined political belief, because political belief is about borders, fundamentally the one they understand about. That is that neurotic autism is prey strongly correlated with discuss sense, poverty or even the kind of thing Europe,

owing to so wise and wise neurotics is not what because you said we had gotten. We kind of thought we kind of thought and in some of my theoretical work, led me to presume that more conservative types or more ideologically possess types. It wasn't clear which would be more neurons but they're, not if anything, conservatives are less neurotic than liberals at a trait level and it's a complex literature because some literature showing the conservatives are more sensitive under I'm conditions to some kinds of negative emotion. You don't want You can generate upper a defence theory of conservative ideology, but it does looked to me, like its fear, related because it doesn't manifest itself in neurotic system at all, and it should if that theory was correct, there's something about discussed. That's crucial that that has been under study so far, but that's chain it I think that your super interesting and have also been interested in the at the aspect

level. Analysis of these things, so the overall agreeableness demean is, did not a player. But when you look at the aspect of will you find that they diverge politeness is higher among conservatives, end and compassion is higher among women was touching his point out for everyone. That's listening is the work done in my lab. I call on the young, particularly. We showed that you could break the big five down into ten some aspects. We call them. So get some additional predictive utility. Sometimes if you use the more differentiated scales and we did investigate as as Doktor Kaufman just mentioned, we did investigate the effects of that on political belief and we did find, as you said, the conservatives or polite, and that liberals or more empathetic are more agreeable and- and we don't know what to make of that, partly because we don't really understand politeness exactly as it has something to do with its something related to deference to authority.

politeness, but it man of like one of them is a just respect. Respect for authority is seems a little bit of an deference. It could could not respect you're, sure men, but but then you it's complicated because conch consciousness is also associated, I would say, to some degree with respect for authority right and so what's the difference. What is politeness, adding that conscientiousness doesn't already cover so great closely yeah yeah yeah. Well, I did it I won't. I was really excited by the political research, partly that was done in my lab at all, also elsewhere, because it's really it's quite revolutionary. I think, to think, through the implications of the fact that your political viewpoints are determined by year by your temperament and end, because what it means is that you're biology in large part has provided you with a filter for the fact

right. So we like to think while you derive irrational conclusions from the set of facts at your exposed to, but unfortunately you have to choose the facts because there's just too many of them so temperament is playing a major role in determining what you would those yourself. Do we found that with fiction? Preference, for example, is like open. People are much more likely to read fiction and fiction of certain swords, and so the differences start with information gathering process itself unable to work with MAR yeah was I love that are worthy of her so much by the way we too the time getting that stuff published, although it did it, raising our way when you published what it's going to be published and what's going to have an impact, you certainly can't predicted, but yes, that that all worked out quite well. So ok back to leaped, let's go activists. If you don't mind, unless you want to shoot the somewhere else, let's go, to the humanism issue, much

central to your new book, so you gotta do not interested in what what was it about the humanist d in it, and then tell me what it was. The captured your attention, so, in particular, was humanistic psychology and actually distinguished from the human is a movement that maybe they don't like, that. That's more officials awful movement. The humanistic psychology movement was in the fifties, sixties cadet of psychology two were convinced that we were telling the full story about humanity in humans through the Freud approach or the behaviour ism approach they felt like. We are neglecting higher principles. They thought like we're neglecting the investigation of the whole person as a system right now. They belong to revoke this forward focused a lot as an empty on psychopathology on mental illness. Exact and behaviorist took everything that was related to consciousness and subjective experience completely off the table.

and we should point out that had utility both those movements have tremendous utility, but there was this laocoon. I let's say that the eggs centralists addressed in the fifties, the existential so just then the humanists in the sixties, by the way I love your lecture about Karadzic and and the phenomenon of the approach, so that was that was really cool. I like that. Yes, so that, in a big way you know there was still a respect for those prior approaches. They weren't seeing their work. They were complete shit. Gabriel, Maso stuff, did really rigorous great work and grad school in rats. You know you you're looking at reaction time task, but he got bored with it and he felt that there was more to the story of humanity. So I guess what really captured my interest is this notion of studying the whole system, the whole person and how all the parts work together? I am, I think, that we both agree

our philosophy that nothing is actually objective are absolutely good or bad. No, no, no psychological trade, its it depends how integrated into the system you know who this is I don't. I am critical of the distinction between positive and negative emotions like we can absolutely classify which emotions are positive, an absolute classify, which ones are negative, as opposed to just we have comparable. Motions of uncomfortable emotions. Amidst you can have the experience, but that we put the label on top of the experience youth, you said you ve had some good lectures about the potential benefits of integrating your anger or are integrating. I mean anything you integrate in a healthy way to the whole system can be beneficial, It has a perpetual issue, their radio institutional issue that the existentialist and the human, humanist and young, as well as far as I'm concerned and concentrated on, which is well when you're talking about integration. Let's say, and so the psychoanalysts psychoanalytic approach, even Freud in approach, would be.

uncover something repressed and to bring it into the whole personality? Well, what exactly Do you mean by the whole personality? And what do you mean by integrated, and so the humanists for me The human ass were the entry point to the answer to that question Absalom. So so. Ok, ok! So you here updating Massillon with your with this new book and and so Walker what you were thinking one way, I'm updating Mazur, but in another way I'm actually sitting the record straight about Maso, because our silly misconceptions thence peat and thinks he never even said so. First of all, he never drew a pyramid. there. There isn't in none of his papers. Did he ever drawn

a pyramid to represent his hierarchy of needs didn't even really think of it in that way. In fact, I was talking to someone who knew personally and there's a store where he was it having lunch with him, and he saw on the dollar bills. I think, is the doorbell. Where there's a pyramid he looked at me. She said I hate that for computer at work, he didn't he didn't like. That's not how we thought that he actually says in his writings. He said I would like to present my integrated hierarchy of human needs and he hears very clear to called into integrated he. He said it's, it's every single need rest very carefully upon the lower need, but just because life is not like a video game where you reach one level of needs and in like some voice revolvers, I congrats even walk the next level and then you never go back to the prior level. Integration fundamentally means that every single higher need depends

the lower need that came before it depends on a very important way. They gets missed by the way it's often represented in modern events. Psychology textbooks like we. I really think we need to update the psychology textbooks about this year. Will launch of great thinkers are poorly represented by what lauder their low resolution representation. I mean PS age on p, o J, the developmental psychologist, whose basically taught as us, age dearest, which was a tiny fraction of what he did and certainly not the most important thing. He was fundamentally interested in reconciling the distinction between religion and science- and I never heard hide nor here that till I started reading page eight, while the translations, I couldn't read it in the french original. So you know the ideas of creative genius is our filtered through the through less

minds when their taught and and much of what's complex and interesting disappears and what's simplified is what remains sale of IE so you and walk, is through a bit the theory and then what you ve done with it and what? When it's done for you and what do you think it can do for other people absolutely and also bring unhallowed some of your own work, influenced it. So, ok, so the hierarchy needs, as as Maso originally proposed, that we have a hierarchy of pre potency and that's the word he used pre potency. Very motivations that given servant deprivations as our entire consciousness to be

very narrowed down to those two fit to to pay attention listening self week of if we severely lack food, our consciousness as he's everything is as a potential source of food. If we severely are deficient with our with our connections and belonging, he says we had. We shall very kind of needing love, so everyone works, like everyone's utility value, is, is to satisfy this whole and ourselves of of connection ever loneliness same self. Esteem needs if were severely deprived of any opportunities for mastery or esteem from others. We become very needy and then demand respect, but he argued that the deprivation realm of existence can be distinguished from the being realm of human

distance. He said once we can it's like putting on a clear, clear set of glasses for the first time when you vote, when you ve only been seeing very, very unclear classes and when you put on the clear glasses and you enter the being realm or the growth realm of human existence, you no longer demand for the world to conform to your deprivations. You start to see the world on its own terms. You start see. The world many in even dare I say, admire, and this is where transcendent starts to come into play, admire and love people for whom they are independently of you, independently of their utility value for your own deprivations? So to me, thought that was the most important distinction, Maso theory that had been lost geisha. Let let me ask you a question so there's two distinctions that are being made and they seem to be slated to some degree in Muslim. But maybe it that's a misunderstanding on my part: theirs,

implication at least, that the the higher the more transcendent values or perceptions make themselves manifest once the deprivation states have been taken care of that sort of the hut, but then, but there's a conceptual distinction, that's equally port, which is that there are deprivation, motivated perceptions, motivations and actions, but there's another class as well and no should be separated, and I have more trouble with the first presumption than the second, because well one when I was thing thinking through Maslow. For example, in the courses I've taught on X, existential ism and humanism in its. It was a great existential so call just as far as I'm concerned talked about people who were in the prison camps in Russia, who was are vague, deprived in Malta

different ways and Frankel did the same thing with regards to the concentration camps and in Nazi Germany, and he describes in painful story after story people. Turning to what matters I would consider being needs in the mid. The severe deprivation and finding sustenance and profound sustenance there. So he talked, for example, about a group of intellectuals who were starving to death in a camp who had a weekly seminar where they discussed their specific academic, specializations- and you know it from- over time, as each of them died of men, attrition, but and and Solzhenitsyn proof is a very powerful think of the idea that the being realm. Let's say in mouser those terms can be accessed once the deprivation realm has been taken, care of and well well

I've had a modified arresting or our argument to say the least, and it's very into but I would modify and say waste. You know that in this this is where maybe what Maso said and what scupper Kaufman saying might start to diverge, because I tried to argue in this book, is that it's all about the how how those deprivations are integrated, not the fact that they're gone so for instance. In my chapter on purpose, I cover what I call the Hitler problem and that's Lena that the very I think are reasonable question did Hitler have a higher purpose, you know, and you know, and what would that even mean in the in the whole hierarchy needs model? Considering that I put purposes a higher need in the growth realm, you know I am I saying that Hitler entered the being a growth round and the way I resolved. That is that I argued that you know some of the most pro social or or most positive aspects of manifestation, So the higher native purpose occur

and one sufferings are integral into one's higher order structure, but it's not the think. It's driving their whole system, so I just We do like viewing this from a whole system perspective, because once you can integrate kind of this, this suffering you had in this and the anger you have for the south but you integrate that with this need for exploration. As I talk about as a growth need as well. as be love, which is Maso gotta, be love, love for the just like humanitarian serve concern or, as Alfred ADD, were called. It gets shoop blunder Freud, I can ever pronounced the word, but you know social interests if it once we have a higher level integration of all these things, I think you get something much better as the sum of the parts than any other parts themselves. Does that me, since yes well and well next week, and we we can also work work through this argument into more detail. I mean it. It's obviously the case that deprivation can reach a point where

nothing, but the deprivation is salient mean if you're in enough pain, for example your hungry enough etc, so there's limit conditions that that make up these deprivation states that skew everything if you're dying of thirst, for example you're not going to, in all likelihood, engage in a philosophical conversation right. So at some point, deprivation takes the reins completely, but then there's that one of the dangers in in Maslovs approach. As far as I was concerned- and this is partly why the writings of Theodore Dalrymple have been so interesting to me because Dalrymple talks, he worked a lot in really in the what would you say that

but he worked a lot alone among the dispossessed class in inner city Brett british settings in the end in the innermost confines of of british cities, and he described a culture of of poverty that characterize the the dispossessed and they were poor. So much if you thought of poverty in terms of absolute deprivation, so he'd worked in Africa as well among people who were by any reasonable standard, much more materially, deprived than the members of the population, He was addressing in psychiatric practice, but he his fun. Mental diagnosis was that the more the generational poverty cycle, violence, alcoholism, drug abuse, anti social behaviour that he saw was a consequence of a profound philosophical disequilibrium. That was the primary agent that was dry

all this, rather than something that could be addressed, for example, by attending. by social attention being paid say to you know like a guaranteed basic income or something like that, and so there are. Getting this straight is really of crucial importance and it is really complicated, and mass always talk to me, look I'll the law from the humanist- and I would say they weren't entry point to me into the domain of practical, philosophical, slash, religious thinking that minutes offered within the field of psychology spirituality for people for atheists. That's what it looks like to me and and I'm not denigrating, that I say that, with all due risk backed and they truly didn't introduce spirituality. Let's say back into this into the sky. If a community among psychologists, so that that was dreamily attractive to me and well, let me tell you,

we tested my model carefully because I published a paper where I integrate, this Into modern day, personality psychology: this is where you you come in quite frankly, and your own ideas and work, so had a hypothesis which call and thought it was a good I bought this, and I should run with it that the deprivation and and grow and being round that matter talked about would map on to stability and plasticity in the big five that debt, to higher order factors of the big and an eye, and I found that to be the case. I actually developed and invalidated a psycho metric scale of all the self oxidation characteristics of Maso wrote about, and I found that I could valley ten out of the seventeen than he mentioned and that the ten were just really strongly possibly correlated with us, but plasticity. Andrea legs date set apart for set for everyone. So

done in my lab again by calling the young and other people had looked at two factors solutions to, but we showed that agreeableness neurotic autism and conscientious nor autism, reversed and conscientiousness together. seemed to make our super factors, so they were somewhat correlated and soda. Extra virgin and openness and call in particular has gone off and develop all of that into a theory. Neuro scientific underpinnings and he started doing that in at the University of Toronto is considered, can for the last it's gotta be near twenty years, and so we found stability. We called the super factors, stability and plasticity for a variety of areas. But- and so you just said that you mapped stability onto deprivation, realm and and and and plus. This city into the being round me room, and I think that

tell that's my modern day flavour on this week, interfering with personality psychology, because at the end, the day, I'm I'm really an individual differences. That's my focuses individual differences, cognitive science and personality, and I think that the optimum and what I argued in this papers at the optimal cybernetic system is one that has a deep integration of both stability and plasticity. Russia, really it really isn't in either or question it's a matter of. Do you have the skill that allow you to resist distractions, answer high or goals, and you have the flexibility to change course when it's no longer serving those higher goals and in that that's tied, integrate Maso theory with modern day cybernetic and personality theory. So I've been need. Tell me what you think about this. I've been working on the presupposition that that balance is it?

manifests itself as something that's analogous to chicks and lilies flow. Although I think it's more like it, it's act if its active engagement and mirth movement, you experienced that when well when you're having a good conversation, let's say, and you nodded, to anything, but the ideas that are being bandied back and forth. You not aware of the broader context. You not aware of the flow of time. You're focused engaged in interested in what's happening and that happens as far as I'm concerned when maximal when optimal information flow has been established, so you want to maintain the integrity of your current perceptual frame, works essential. Your current interpretive frameworks, you dont, want them to fall apart, but because there are limited because you're limited they have taken. nearly transform at some rate and expand so, as you big become

competent and as the world changes around you. So it seems to me that the Inn think of meaning is the manifestation of an internal signal that you ve, optimal, information flow for your particular nervous system, so you're not getting more information than you can stand, so it's not Nor can you into an de related anxiety, but you are incorporating information at a rate that's optimal. With regards to you, continued adaptation and growth. I love that I think that manifests itself as the sense of meaning, and I think that's what music produces it's in there. Now, when you ex, when you listen to music and your deeply engaged, you get an analog of that and and and it's like a model. It's like this is what your life could be like this musical beauty. If

you were in the right place at the right time. All the time, which is what you should should should could strive to attain. I and there's something there's something that never runs out about that idea. I would that and just add: is it worth distinguishing between the kind meaning that is pre wired Ino programmed through the course of human evolution that our universal forms of meaning? That all of us would agree? Give us meaning first the individualistic mean that maybe touch moreover unique traits, and while I would say that, probably a matter of level of integration, which is then the more universal the trade they the meaning, experience is the more related to an emergent integration soul, only in all added alike, as you as you already pointed out, we all differ in our temperaments and quite substantively, and so there are going to be

things that we find particularly interesting that other people won't find interesting that might determined something like the choice of our careers. It's not trivial, these differences there, but but as you integrate, it makes that, as you integrate the thing that's integrated becomes more similar across diverse places. I mean how could it be otherwise and that's where, Thank you get into the realm of universal human values, and I think they are. There emerged properties of reciprocal game. Something like that. Let me tell you something interesting. You tell me what you think about this, so you know I've been very. What would you say oppose to the idea that the typical hierarchical social structure is based on power there's a political argument going on everywhere now and at the extra aims. The claim is something like well hierarchical, the what the higher the structures that characterize the west that characterize capitalism

maybe that just characterize the west in general are based on power. Ok, so first I talked we shall probably this week is one of the world's leading authority on the development of aggression in human beings in case of what he showed quite clearly is that aggression is there a right at the beginning? So it's one of these built in motivational systems that you already talked about, the most aggressive age is too. If you group to your own together, the the problem, Billy of kicking, hitting biting and stealing, is higher than it is. If you group any other age together, and that declines, precipitously with socialization, ok, the general trend is from aggression to to less aggression, and then you can differentiate the aggressive kids into three groups that the kid to two year olds,

three groups, those who were never aggressive even up to thirty percent of the human population, those who are aggressive, sporadically fifty percent and seventeen percent who are chronically aggressive. It's free that category, if those kids aren't socialized into peace over the course of developmental history, most particularly by the age of four there, the long term permanent offenders But what's interesting about this and crucial, I believe, is that the developmental trend across aggression categories for less aggression, aggression, Isn t it, and therefore power is no. a stable strategy for negotiating success in human hierarchies and its more it's more- something like reciprocity is, and we need to recognize that, because it really is the case that you are much more likely to be successful if you're, productive and reciprocal- and I think that's

emergent that emerges out of hierarchical organization and I think it's the same across cultures. variation, but that's a universal human truth and I think we're adapted to it We recognise that and others when we see it and that Producers are when we really see it at persons higher product. their hyper generous. I want to be like that person, so Competent and relational would thus be pseudonyms for those two, whereas yeah, but now it has absolutely its competent ungenerous, knew what it combination, and you know the thing generosity is that it allows competent people to store the fruits of their labour right. I mean if, if you I collaborate and I'm generous and our collaboration then you're going to collaborate with me again, maybe sometimes down the road when I really need it and vice versa. You know when I was struck, or to juggle willing. Two weeks ago and jocose dislike hyper masculine warrior type of character. You know he's Navy seal and a very

intimidating physically and psychologically, and he told me in the night wholesale training, for example, that the primary dictum is you have your buddies back? It isn't biggest meanest ape wins and that doesn't even work for chimpanzees S. Friends to all is shown. So there is an ethic man and one of the things I liked about the humanist and about your book is that you know you're pointing out that there is this integrative tendency that is associated with values and that there some universal about it. It's like yeah yeah. You have definitely absolutely and if I may go to a territory that may seem seem completely unrelated, but I don't think it is. I wrote a book called meeting intelligence unleashed that co authored with an evolution psychologist Glengarry, but we found that the the mail, the mail that was most attractive to women was the tender defender and I feel like you're kind of dust I a tender day under. I really want to talk to you about that. Ok, so I've.

I've been involved in an email exchange with Richard Dawkins and I asked to come on my podcast and he wrote back politely and in a detailed letter point now why I wanted to talk to him, which was very surprising to me. I don't said I wanted to talk to about sex selection particularly He identified a paragraph from a talk. I did with SAM Harris that nail exactly why I wanted to talk with Dawkins okay, so darkens is the blind, watchmaker guy right and and these anti dealer teleological to the core and also are also anti religious, etc, and people know about talking darkens is an admirable person, intellectually, but this there the evolutionary psychology biologists, are not taking the issue of sexual selection seriously enough in relationship to value. So let's take me You just said so imagine if you tell me if you think this is wrong, because I really want to know if it's wrong men. Women do

two, but would you gonna sex differentiate for for the time being met organize hierarchies around tasks. They want to get something done. It's something that everyone in the group wants to get done, and so as soon as they aggregate themselves towards the task, a hierarchy of competency merges because there's individual differences If the groups functional they let the guys who are better at the task rise to the top, now imagine that a cross asks there's a proposal. for some men to rise and others not to This would be men who are competent generous across tasks, and so there likely to emerge as successful in the domain of of task. Related hierarchies are right. Now we know that women are what's the word they made across an up hierarchies

It's wonderful relating relational. Yes, there, their men made crossing down hierarchies women made across an up and that's lobbyists, cross culturally, ameliorated to some degree in countries like the scandinavian countries, but it's their cross cultural. They like me, we're a bit older and they like men, who are a bit above them in the hierarchical game. Let's say men vote on who the most there man is, and women peel from the top and value game draw. this evolution random not random at all, and so that's you said tender defender and I do think that's generous productivity, and so not all were selected for that in sexual selection specifies that even more completely an intensely intensely

Some men can why, when men can gain that by by displaying trappings of wealth and like to pick up artist types, they mimic tender, defended and they can fool women that way, but women, you know by and large, are looking for cues for for exactly that competence and the capacity to predict the ability Why? What else would you want for your children? You know you yeah and what you're saying link so much as a Harvey's handicap principle in evolutionary sick, gee. You know that you need reliable signals, do what legal, what we women are pretty smart at seeing bullshit. You know like whether there The survival of their children depends on it. That's why this extremely art out as they should be and like I don't. I don't believe that its amiss reading of the evolutionary literature to point out that one of the reasons that we

have diverge so rapidly from our current from our common ancestor with chimps. the chimps, see much more similar to that common ancestor than we are is because females are non selective maders, whereas human males are highly selective majors- and you know this man, first itself. In few look at these charge there quite comical and in some sense, if you look at how men women on a typical dating site. It's pretty much a normal distribution. The average woman gets an average rating, and you know the nine out of and gives a nine and and and so forth, its distributed as you would expect, but its skewed way to the left for men like sixty percent of men, are like a fool or lower, and so even in just instantaneous, ratings of a trial if MR exactly six different,

so you put it what you put it very well, though, when you said it our survival or species literally depends on it. I love you, as one is unable click on that case. So then the question is in this ties into this humanist idea. What is it that were aiming at? Well? Why part of that is why one of the elements that make up competence and generosity while we know what competence is made out of iq and conscientiousness- that's a huge chunk of it. So in general, problem. Solving capability. That's IQ consciousness is dead agent application of that case of any error that with generosity, You haven't stern and openness experience there. Yes well, there'd be there'd, be a knee she there, because that's where you get creative types and they can be radically I think of creativity. Is a high risk, high return game, you're, hiding everything that Ale Bob's leaking, that two Jeffrey Miller's hypothesis about creativity, being a reliable indicator of genetic

station world, which is why they, be so sexy. You know from four select her point of view. No you'd have an elaborate out that a bit because this this is also the case for, like all sorts of other species, Righty Bauer, words, for example, exact and even fish. For God's sake, there's have you ever seen those sculptures that prefer fish make at the bottom of the ocean. It's incredible at risk that long and their beautiful. Complicated, and they take a lot of work. It's like urge select highly for creativity in many cases, and so you see this, you see emerge out of an evolutionary process in species that are quite distant from ours. Is it in it points something underneath that's common. You know even that's common across creative fish and creative people, it's quite the damn gap

What does stickleback to like a lot of things were saying: cuz like human human intelligence, human creativity is so complex, it's very hard to fake. It goes back to look at what I said earlier. You can't just accidentally get like a one hundred and seventy IQ, even though there's lots of reasons why maybe a. War. I q is misrepresenting you're your iq, but you know this does relate to the fact that you know rule Able indicators of these things are important from a sexual selection point of view, as well as other points, while that crucial. You know because the blind watchmaker types they say well, evolution is just a random process and there's unfortunate political impulse and philosophical implication. but instantly emerged from that everything's bloody, pointless, there's no direction, there's no such thing as real value. It's like wait. A SEC wait, a SEC. there's random mutation on the creativity production side, so that life capital eyes his own chance as an extra domain of creative production. Just

and you see that in creative thought in people too, because there is a kind of a randomness about creative thinking, you open up the gates and ideas made, you know promiscuous, let's say, and so there but there's no reason to assume whatsoever that the selection mechanism is random, especially when you add in sexual selection and assume you introduce consciousness, I thank you in use the sexual selection and and as soon as you introduce sexual selection, you introduce direction reality, and so much for randomness you can derive so that the people that that processes that make the watch might be random. Although you know what up down its genetic level is pretty damn complex and even bacteria exchange dna with each other. So there's a plenty of play down at that Netteke level as well as room for mutation, but once you get up to this election level like

the conscious choices, the fundamental determinant of evolutionary progress, and I can't and look even Darwin because Darwin was a genius he stressed. Sexual selection, much as natural selection, but I will just four hundred years never paid any attention to that and no wonder you, like it's a revolutionary to be fair. I do think Jeffrey. To be fair, Jeffrey man. I think he did a good job in his book. The meeting mind kind of In two consciousness of the fact that creativity of may have evolved due to say post election processes in the gulf and its walls. consciousness itself may have evolved sexual look look look plenty of biologists, been assessing sexual selection in the last thirty years, but it was, it was under stress to a huge degree for a long long time and it is, change your because sex.

Selection among human beings. I think, is more important determinant of of successful rapidly The natural selection. I mean they're the same at some level, women acting as the gatekeepers So they are natural selection in some sense, but but how can you deny the role of conscious direction reality and that an don't see flaws. In my reasoning, I mean it is the case that men. arrange hierarchies around competence and generosity phenomena, it's, not power, even bloody chimps, don't use power. They baboons there a bit of a different story powers to unstable, and so- and I think it's a added to men to elect man, even though that gives some men wider range of mating opportunities, because the net benefit of enhanced productivity,

Firstly, when, coupled with generosity, is so high that the downside you know of the hierarchical ranking is trivial in comparison you want the best warrior leading your rating party. Obviously I mean we want the best person in power, whether it's a man or woman right I mean we obviously want we want. You know I really competent woman in power as well, of course, sweetness and waste, and men selection evidence in women too, but there's differential selection to some degree because men will make across and down whereas women made across it up so here the men are putting the same selection pressure on those out It's a feminine David women, putting on men men what their own attributes on I'm not saying that the youth, for example, is a tremendous determinant, I think you're, seeing a lot of really stimulating things. I'm trying to wonder is our second of knowing do that. Do you think I mean you're, stimulating my head in a million directions, but do you think that that there is a section, prince in that

Men are more likely to abuse positions of power when they are in power as opposed to one Has it ever been to link there's actually, data showing the reverse very interesting. I am curious to see data on that. Unfortunately, and I dont have this at hand there is in research. going on into Machiavelian ISM among status, achieving women and some of that's done it you b c and I've. I can't give you the details because I just came across it. I've just running it. You know I'm starting to process it, but no, I dont think men are more likely to abuse power. I also think it's also mostly as a general rule, it's really counter productive. Ask you something to tell me what you think about this. So in terms of deep play, sure that's associated with higher order values, one of the things that I have noticed

bout, extremely competent people in positions of authority and and productivity is the delight that they take and mentoring. and I dont know what it's like in your personal experience but mice, my Variances being that there isn't anything, that's more rewarding than that legally consider, you think that's right well, think about what there's things on what that means. For the emergence of value, you know as a dialogue, good idea. is there something unbelievably pleasurable about finding someone competent and of of moral, caliber, let's say and opening doors to them and then watching them progress. You know, Jordan, that to the heart, my whole brought my whole project of this book of translation. that's why I'm bringing that's it? That's it is. I want people to you.

I want to be able to spot the potential and people that they don't even seeing themselves to me that special right, I agree. I agree. I dont think is anything more look. I was talking to this get its twenty seven interviewed meet couple of days ago, and he was this here. The night clubs rears he's interactive guy, charismatic guy, and so you know from the perspective of young men who are sick ass well in their life. He was doing just fine because he was charismatic and attractive and he had a whole night club life thing going and so he'd kind of mastered that, but he started to podcast and start to pay very careful attention to what he was saying and it's a human development podcast and now he's getting letters from people who are saying man. You know you're really help me out. It's really making a dick to my life, and he told me that successful

ass. He was in his sort of man about town persona and everything that that granted him. It was nothing at all compared to the intrinsic pleasure that he experiences when someone tells him that- and I think that's right and that's, think there's almost nothing more antithetical to power philosophy, then that is like no dawn the players. and domination, which is resent full and bitter and cruel and short, lived and counter productive, that that's nothing compared to the pleasure, that you take, if you have any sense in finding someone with some possibility and opening doors for them there. Even in the same universe. I would go further and say not as pleasure, but what greater source of meaning in one's life? Yes Could someone have meaning pleasure secondary, but demanding is so deep that it letters Annetta phenomenon, so here

I mean I see that in your book. I know when you're up to no one in Europe, you're trying to add like the human. in general, and I found them extremely here, full. Rogers was reading, Roger was very useful to me and Mouselike. Well so like there's something within knew that needs to be developed. That's a great man. The two and to everyone else simultaneously. I lied to you in the I'll analysis. I thought I put him at the top of the panoply of of of psychologists. Have this type because he took the study of transcendence into the religious domain and, and that seem to me, but I found it much much at much deeper comprehension of of its limits as a consequence of reading you I tried to get there. I tried to get there in this book due to the spiritual level transcendence, but I felt like I could only get thereafter Varick carefully in an integration way put all the

their pieces in place because I think there's a lot of pseudo spirituality that you see these days. A lot of spirit well transcendence, where its transcendence built on a faulty foundation of of basic needs, and she being driven by deprivation needs like any for esteem. For instance, you'll see a lot of these girls who really It's that with ideology to you know yes, driven by yeah unrecognised. a. I see a lot of unresolved freudians million psychopathology driving it illogical, assuming the idea, for example, that the patriarchy is authoritarian and fundamentally based on power, It's like well, why? How is your relationship with your father? Just out of curiosity, Have you ever had a positive relationship with any man in your entire life?

do your man or a woman, it doesnt, really ask that question. Have you received, I slept well, I M not a good way to make friends. Jordan hit people with questions like that. If I see it, you know because its it it's it's its instantaneous surgery. If your accurate and it's not so you don't, I Do that, but I see I recommended recommend I don't recommend. No no, but it is definitely worth you no true consideration because you got ask yourself, why would you reduce your political theorize to that particular unidimensional proposition and but but and for me that, while this is again what partly, why like your book is an this line of work general is like No, no you don't understand is that functional human organizations are actually predicated on they work way better for everyone if they encourage the manifest station of the highest possible human values- In my experience in them, both in the air

ethnic world and in the corporate world is that companies that abide by those universal principles do much much better in every possible way, and that doesn't mean that you know, I think, when when structures deteriorate they become dominated by people who play power games. That happens all time we have to be awake to that it happens all the time, but that doesn't mean that functional hierarchies have that structure. I agree, and I'm really deeply concerned about that. That's that's another topic coming. We, I fear that we tried it we're we're actually in real time integrating about forty different threads, but I think that that is the power games going on a siren out. Something deeply deeply concern it's me I feel like even I think I feel like I've learned in the past couple years, that I'm too naive as end is a human, and I ve been trying to actually improve that because I tend to treat everyone I meet in good faith. I mean I don't care who you are like gently. Let's talk about you know only courage, you know like because

it's not easy to begin with, and then you get one then you're no longer naive, but then you get cynical and bitter and that's actually improvement. but then you think, no no cynicism, no bitterness, I'm gonna, open myself up again and take the goddamn hats and that's courage: I think you re now. Actually I think, that's what I'm an arena. It's been build transformation from me a real, yet with journeys. And what do you see? Ok, you said naivety. So what have used Why don't you know inclusion? I didn't know that that sometimes because I'm a caring person and I'm empathetic, so some people I started noticing that I say things like I would safe research findings or things that I I'm curious, just purely curious ban. People would say you know that that so you should talk about that stuff or or do you know that, if that some of us can cod cause damage to I to minority populations etc, and I'm

in person? So that really kits me in the gut, because the last thing I want to do is hurt a minority by mid out what I heard em in art, anyone, but then I started to realize in some instances deafening. Obviously, but in some instances there was a pause or game being played. That was outside of my love of comprehension or outside my level of like of under ending that wasn't personal against me, but actually there's just something being played out where, if you Mr ideology, there are certain who were terms buzzwords and things that do you just you just that they're just off limits from even bringing into a discussion, and I may have inadvertently sometimes liked it's like I inadvertently trip wire things, sometimes that are outside of my little of any trip wires that you knew this, that the name that people who are playing the game is playing our plane. is the laying of unavoidable trip wires, because it's a dog

when it game, and all I have to do, is put enough trip wires around you and you will definitely stumble across one of them, but how caring purse and supposed to navigate trip, wires, legal advice for that housing carry. compassionate human being. Possibly post to navigate trip, whereas I should say a copy a person who also come into the truth. That's what I should say how, Where do we navigate the trip wires? You try to say things that you believe are true and you take the consequences, you know when you do it carefully and you pay attention, you pay it But I would say more importantly, look you, you have this podcast and I have a botanist and we're both educators and in a broad sense, and- and I believe that that's our fiscal responsibility, given our training in an hour now our reach so like While the way I navigate that landscape. As I have conversations like this there better that's what we ve got when you're,

when you're, trying to diminish malevolence? Let's say ignorance, misunderstanding, wilful or otherwise, your best bet is to do something better. and use that as a model and that works and I'm so hard by this. I can give you an example. So I've been work with this musician, his name is a cure, the dot and he has taken from my lectures, which I hope are meaningful and power. different also, not naive. I hope and he's putting them to music, and so he has this job. rather because meaning Wavin. It's not like it's a huge subculture, but its it numbers the tens of thousands and he's had his success completely underground, because no popular media ever touches this and

You go on the websites, I was just interviewed by him and he played some of the music and so on on you, too, every single comment is unbelievably positive and uplifting. a nor naive way like these people live cartoons, music, it's all positively oriented occur, is trying very hard to make it that way without being naive, and all these people are doing something given their all supporting each other in the comments just like you think, wow, that's a Youtube com listen, there's hundreds of the more thousands of them it's so wonderful to see that, and so you we have these podcast available, this now, so we can have these long form discussions right, so you and I we have some shared expertise, We can talk about it as high level as we can possibly manage. As honestly as we

possibly can in engaging as possible a manner and we can share with hundreds of thousands of people so like. Well, that's a great deal, man, it's great something about this long form communication that just opens itself up to that end. I've watched the comments and people are happy about two things: they're happy about the content, but they're happy about watching the process right, and process is more important than the content. so you can model that balance that you already talked about between plasticity insight. Quality we can mortal out in real time and that's and completely and ethically you right as long as the more when I can listen. each other and attend and say what we believe to be true and dance. The better, but a bloody podcast is gonna be, Well, this is obviously what I will. I live for. These kinds of conversations like we had today: is I dont know? like everyone that I meet, is,

coming at me with the same sort of hay let's have a shared understanding of the truth. Here, let's get, let's tried it. Let's talk about this and get to it at some sort of generalised able principle, I just feel, like mulatto conversations. There's kind of different different energy. In the conversation words, though, article F P, lecturing at each other, but not having conversations with each other, and I what to do with that. I don't know how, when I get it, when I find myself in a lecturing at situation, you take We are of my comfort zone. So much that I don't it's almost like someone speaking russian to me all of a sudden. I do understand Russian. You know why I can tell you what I advise people to do under those circumstances. The first is realize that you are not where you think you are you're somewhere else. That's that feeling of being taken out a year now you're some. Else you don't know where you are. Ok, that's fine! You don't know where you are. What should you do shut up? That's the first thing

The person you are talking to is not interested in your opinion. They're interested in some Now you don't know what it is, but it's not your opinion or your thoughts or your ideas it something else. Then you watch attend. So this is a mystery. Unfolding few attend you'll see. What's happening and you'll be able to react carefully and but the crucial issue is to recognise that you're, not where you, because what you'll try to do is impose you're. Desire on the situation. You want this to be the kind of conversation you just described as long as you keep doing that you actually lose. That's something I learned, at least in part from reading union depth, because he talked about how to handle yourself in conversations where something had possessed, the conversation essentially something you didn't understand. It possessed the conversation,

Sometimes you, the person you're talking to his possessed by something that wins. If you argue doesnt matter, if you what We argue about what you say or what the fact is. If you engage in the argument you loose so but having said I still think the better alternative, all things considered is just to do a better thing not to have country model a model, something better. You know I try explaining what you're doing it the item. So hard model, car, Rogers notion of unconditional positive regard, and I really try my eye. I cannot say I try. My best We know that in my life and have it it does too often get good results Well, I can tell you what would I made of that as a clinician, because I was never call. I was never comfort. without idea. I didn't I didn't like it exactly. I knew there was something to it. I what I didn't care we discard it, but it lacks differentiation,

So if you are clinician- and someone comes to you- there's a bunch of things in their life that our right and our good and there's a bunch of things that could be promoted. And partly what you're doing is you're you're on the sub. on the side of the part of the person that one to grow and develop, and your not on the side of the part that doesn't- and you can make that explicit and people are actually relieved by it and you can say Wahlberg and I'm gonna make mistakes and, in my judgment, and please correct me, but so that the contract that therapeutic contract is you're gonna come, and I learned some of this from Rogers to show so it came along. The unconditional boss regarding like ok, you and I you're going to aim for what's better the mutually distance discuss what's better, so that so that we agree that that's better then we're going to strategies about how to go about doing it and we're gonna the strategies, but that's the deal

the deal is part of that deal is you're gonna tell What you actually think and I'm and to tell you what I actually think. That's that what did he call that in ruins and what's can groans and honesty, and so no, they for clients as something that upsets me I'll, say, tat this emotional reaction to what you said, negative emotion reaction. We should take that apart or if I observe that in them, but It's not unconditional positive regard because there's judgment there has to be. You want to keep them wheat and throw away the chaff, and you want to participate in that with with the people that now you could say over arching. That is a benevolent motivation and that, ovation is I want you to be better and I want you to be better so that everyone else is better. That's fine, but you ain't going to do that. Every ideal is a judge by necessity,

and so you have to wrestle with that in relationship to unconditional positive, regards You just made me realize that I dont think I practice unconditional pause regard. I think I practice unconditional regard. Let us take the what positive out of their first. Second, ok, because it. Something I try to do with it with any human whose in front of me and its its unconditional there passed there all the things that you know it's like. I don't even want to know all the things that came before this conversation. You know I want to see someone on my with my own eyes, freshly you know I want to be. influenced by you know, people will say like don't- to this person, don't argue that person do not. I mean you know exactly what you need yeah yeah, that's why I was so fast the way by the ancient egyptian worship of the eye, then the mess obtained inside it to their greatest god. Marduk was eyes all the way around his head and he spoke magic words. So I guess that's exactly right, but

what you are saying is that that's attention its attention I want to watch and see what's right in front of me, it's not thinking if something completely different than that at its core. Do what you just described I will tell you what it is. Say it s almost like it's also a scientific perspective. I want to see what is I want to see. What is I don't wanna be coloured by show the Egyptians regarded Horace as the revitalizing agent or serious was the dead king right that the worn out state, the the no longer functionally ideology and horror, was the eye. It was the eye was the revitalizing source because it saw what was an reply presumption with what was sort of its it's. It's there watching to see and being willing to see, and certainly that's an integral part of any real scientific process. Absolutely ok, let's cut off the unconditional word then as well. I try to practice rigour

What then, here's to you ve got disregard, which is focused attention, but then they differ Jason element is also crucially important. It's like well, let's figure out, what's right here in what isn't in wood, let's have a bunch more of what's right and not much of what isn't that should never be imposed and that something else I learned for Rogers is like you can't. You can't really give advice to while to anyone for that matter, but certainly not to their to clinical plants. They have to be only body and for it to work so imposing it. Isn't that as well, you can you can't rip off. the defence mechanisms. You can't rhythm off people, it's a terrifying thing yet well about, yes, be there's plenty for us to be defended against. So I mean. Though, that that that fear, you had to say about being in conversations where you don't know what the rules are?

in what I observed among undergraduates was that continually was that that would be there. Surface level now and then, but I could trust the undergraduates by and large that if I gave them something that was substantive, they'd be so excited and so interested that it was just ridiculous. And so even that. Any cynicism. Resentment is often relatively shallow and, and you can entice people away from that with something better Agree, I just like to tell you about my personal experience: eight at Columbia, University. I teach the course called the science of living well, and you know I just

on the first day of class? I just let leave at the door any kind of ideology or edged all that crap. I basically you're all welcome here like going to start their like you're all welcome this class in I care about finding the grace potentiality within each and every one of you in this class and in the way in the style that works best for you and how you want to own Europe, decide where are you going to live in and take responsibility for that life and students love it I mean. I I dont there's no controversies, there's no, I mean it's what I love my students. You know they. They went what kind of frame it in that way I mean prudence they're all on board, there's no reason to divide. That is no reason to kind of lead with division. In my, in my point of view, I agree and I've always had faith in my under graduate students, and they ve always delivered on that face like all every year it was always the same, and so

if I was interested in what I was doing and found it meaningful, and if I was trying to get at the heart of things they were like completely along for the ride, but have also found exactly the same thing in the gas and when I went on public lectures is like you know. I had discussions of this sort. I would say of this intensity with Paris, for example, about religious matters, and you know there were ten thousand people watching that and they were captivated by it. That was how it appeared, and so you can, thrust out in people and in what way but I think what do you mean your experience, monsieur podcast and yeah yeah regarding the artisanal funny had a four hour debate to beat hairs on my part cast about that. The nature of free will and Actually said to me in an email, I think about it a lot to say what he said to me. He said what I'm too are compatible lest he said: I'm trying to do with my compatible IST version of free will is what Jordan Peter is trying to do with trying to redefine God, so

me and you and the same camp there has in a way. So I think you know we're on a similar frequency and in some in some sense that I dont want to have such narrow conceptualisation of something that it no longer has practical utility. You know construct value anymore short, me what's happening with your podcast in what you are doing is unsure you're, an educator like me, and now you have the means. This technological means- and so what what up some of you experienced, and what do you want from it in my pocket? has become, one of the greatest source of meaning in my life it forty seven years ago, as just me, turning on the microphone, I wouldn't have nerdy conversations with my colleagues about psychology, but it's really turned into a different beast: it's really something really emerged, the witches which I'm really pleased about, and in that's that I have guess on my show, who I am

rate with unconditional regard, and I don't I don't. who they are like I want to engage. Then, in the moment, on ideas and and try to come to some. Show understanding of the truth. I mean I've had conquered she'll gas on I've had noncontroversial guess on. I don't even like to think of it in that way, because none of the episodes have been controversial. So it's almost like people say like. Oh, you can have a controversial guest on as though there expecting that debt, the episode need be controversial and what I want to show is that doesn't need behind the case. You know like Why does that need to be like, as are some rule from like Moses ten comic? That's all it's eggs. I think it it's it's cheap and fast. You know one end and I

some of that was actually imposed previously by our technological limitation sake. You know, if you're, if you're, trying to attract attention in a limited bandwidth world, you need something she and quick, because the intentional space is unbelievably expensive and, and you have to waver red flag, but now we ve got time right, we can let things unfold, and so you know I am inviting political figures onto broadcasting. I hope I can get people from across the ideological spectrum and and offer them the opportunity to unfold their ideas over two hours without sound bites and without the intermediation of the journalist so to speak? I'm gonna ask questions, obviously, but and that's all become possible because of this technological transformation, and I think it's.

I had my glee, the senator from Utah, whose I think the most conservative senator in the house, according to his voting record, and he laid out is his thoughts over two hours and what's been so gratifying? Is The comments in them, in aren't foolish and knee jerk on either side of the political spectrum there more like. Oh, when he laid out his arguments. I found them interesting and I learned a lot from listening and that's left wingers, saying not an right, wingers saying out and her and so it be so nice as far as I'm concerned. If that was how we conducted our political discourse, What's your ideas, can you lay them out over two hours and still be there and still have something to say, and I have also found- and I know what you're experiences, but my experience with these long for is that they brutally punish any facade

or dishonesty of any sort the editing, Miss behave, you're anything like that. It just doesn't fly man, it doesn't have any meaning what do you mean Justinian Pact that furthermore well, for example, if put up a youtube? Video and I've got some of it People are now the article about what are absolutely Surely I couldn't I cut out a bathroom break either day and I actually got you two comments in what are you trying to hide? What you don't want you wanna hear me paying, but have you found and I found this to be the case- that if, if I tree people's human, they tend to act, human, I don't who they are. I mean I don't care. I very rarely have I encountered any anyone in my life. I have encountered so called controversial figures that I'm that I'm I'm supposed to even hates you know even before talking, then that if I, if I treat them with humanity, they at least engage in me

that there has been in the main that's big building my experience. However there except I haven't, I hear and pronounced exceptions. I mean I've had interviews with journalists that were where am. I did the things that you just described and the consequence was that they wrote something that was absolutely deceitful and reprehensible, and they, Do it and that's been a continual shock to me, even though it's happened many many times, so I would say almost all the time when you invite someone to play. They play nicely button, not always not always shown its unfortunate that is unfortunate. It it it'll doesn't mean that we don't stop trying out of damage, know well the right I dont want, come on ultrasonic cynic. I guess I'm trying to say about humanity. I want to go.

My humanistic there's no reason for that is no reason for that. It's the data, dont support the conclusion I mean I've looked very neatly into the problem of malevolence and I've taken it very seriously, and I dont think that I'm particularly naive, but it still definitely the case that your best bet is like arms, open and welcoming, and even though you know that that invites in catastrophe now and then it still It is the most appropriate ethical stance, so so what a living? And what do you think's going to happen to the universities in light of all this new technological possibility mean? Have you thought, our dear let's go in that direction- me you're an educator at nearly university, but now you have all this technological power slight. But what does? What are the consequences that gonna be,

Yeah, I tweeted out something along the lines of my predict that in twenty years or so, I think it makes a twenty years. Universities will be considered very archaic and then pointless to should agree. Now. I've got a lot of comments because that's a privacy, a pretty relative statement, but I think I am I am. I do think that we're gonna look back at some point in the future and and and think that you know the these, for the leaders of the of the educational structure that we have a universe is going to be a bit, so considering their so high quality information coming out, that's gonna be accessible to so many people and that so many people be learning things that it that they were in which they do with their lives not through university, and once that starts happening, a kind. The tables get turned away where the people in power in society to a large degree or, if not, if not self, taught but taught through channels other than the most elite universities. I think that its that that things are going to work.

Bit silly about the current structure. What do you think? How does that land with you? Well, it seems to me that the landscape, going to transform itself so that people will turn to further education to discussions like the one that we just had, because why not right? I mean, as we just conducted something that approximates high level graduate seminar. Spontaneously and you ve worked for decades on these sorts of things, and so have I mean even as a professional in an elite institution, I would say the opportunity to sit down for two hours with another respected figure in the field and have a conversation like this are relatively few and far between. But now you can do that whenever you want some

People will accept your invitation and then you can invite, like five hundred thousand people to take part. So. How is that not just going to win it to an end? It's much more interesting than the typical lecture, because the typical lecture is dull and horrible. I mean you get exception, to that. But generally that's the case, and I mean you go to an academic conference in my God. It's it's its soul. No one would watch any of that almost unless they had to and so yeah. That's why I'm here competing illegal yeah. I can't go back to Colombia in the fall. After going a year of others, virtual classes, I dont even partaken the virtual, but when I back in the fall to in person classes, there's no way, I'm gonna go back to business as usual. It feels so weird too, to stand.

in Wexford students after I have experienced clubhouse and the potential for that from a few discovered Clavecin. I think that's gonna be a big wave of the future. My experience in the podcast ferment experience all these other formatted discussions. There's no way I can go back typical lecture styles and I should try to reformulate exactly what a classroom. What a science living while classroom even looks like. I think that one will emerge to know accreditation. Institutions will emerge you know increasingly the cost of educational, be driven down to something approximating zero and I think that's what How it looks to me- and I think, we'll get. The people who really want to teach and who teaching something that people want to listen to will be ready, please successful added at an inn. The dual level primarily and then there's the bloom of accreditation and perhaps

universities will solve that, but I suspect, not, I suspect, upstart private companies will will will solve that problem. You know tat. You could imagine a situation where all the lectures are free, but me arms are very expensive and almost no one passes them so its breadth education but strenuous evaluation, strenuous, accurate evaluation and then accreditation and they accreditation would have. Some value is already the case that in If you hire someone from Harvard part of what you're getting is the initial entry process right, it's really hard to get into Harvard you have to be, you have to have a voice hi. I q in so far as a desert unless you're one of these celebrities, and you pay for your dc that he has under their stirs exceptions but you're going to have a bit of time. If you go to university and you're you're, not intellectually qualified, it's gonna be a horrific expire,

Your point is well taken. Your parents itself in punishing show you have to be very Smart and you have to have accomplished general, three or four other things so You hire someone from an Ivy League Institute because of the stringent selection process which is made possible, at least in part, by the plethora of applicants. You know that rigour. Of the educational quality you're getting a person who have those attributes to begin with. So it's a proxy for its a proxy for competent generosity. All things centred men than the education. Add something to that, but, but you can imagine accreditation institutions will pop up that that are capable of assessing that, and there is real value in that I'd like to do that. But I dont have the wherewithal to manage it. It's too complex

what I love about the competent that you brought the competent relational aspect there his I mean that's the highest level of integration of my whole book. Like that's worm, that's what I mean. I think we just like a right that independently, but I mean that's, that's all we thought along the same track to that. That's true and draw up like that. That's very true! That's better! But you know, if you ask me, what is it what is transcendence? I don't find transcendence as as some sort of thing. We are above other humans. You know in I'm sort of I'm superior to other human sort of way. Very, doesn't work. defined it is its Maso called a synergy between soften world where you're and you could GMO free maternity competence. Your competence is so

influential and powerful and in making the world a better place that their such little separation between you and the world, so that what's good for you is good for the world and that's what I that's what my books trying to get to, sir. I love you that you and I believe, that's true. I believe that's true is that you can. You can have your cake and eat it do, and I think it urged the pleasure of Mentorship is really an example of that. It's like what would make you more happy than anything else. Well, who knows, let's take a look just out of curiosity. Well, is it a like? Is it a fast Mercedes? Is it is it Sexual gratification on demand is it well? Is it power? Is its status, etc, etc? And you can get more sophisticated than that as well, but my ex France has been that there isn't anything more pleasurable than seeing unrewarded talent and possibility and fast militating its development. It's like that's in its own right, first and so that's deeply meaningful to me, but then it's also-

something that is clearly of high level social benefit, and so I think, as you do integrate in in in neuroscience. you integrate internally, which is what I recommend people do in common. Fraid, but at the same time you're integrating things externally. There's no preparation, they're, not fundamentally, which is also cleaning up your room turns out to be a very difficult act in theirs impediment in there. just don't realize and to get you can't get your room in perfect order without some dangerously getting the world and perfect order. So so we think snowing Einstein's desk, then you can be periods. Creative disorder, but it's not a consequence of avoidance. fair enough, because I always see that picture of Einstein. You know like there's a famous picture of him when his his office was out of control sure- well you he probably knew everything in it was right. So there's that to its

dying order is not necessarily evident on the surface. Let's turn so, let's turn so all right. Well, look that was. That was wonderful. I appreciate the fact that you took the time to talk to me. It's good, I'm we finally have a chance to have a long discussion. I wish you good luck with your book. transcend, and I hope that it has the effect that you wanted to have and that your podcast does as well a net onward and keyword in all of that, thank you and I hope conversation modeled. What a conversation could be there were out we'll see because people will tell us, I guess they will just I was interested in it. I got an absorption, I got the idea, you know the absorption aspect, but and here well, that's it that's a killer. Parker isn't it you know, I'm really is you're, not assuming you not to corrupt what you're absorbed in his perhaps what's most important, because wiles would you be absorbed in it.

So why can't we assume that a reliable marker or the most reliable marker, even I think it is so right. Great things turn It's very much. Thank you.