The following is conversation with andrew superman. His third time on this package is a brilliant neuroscientist, the staff for university and the host of one of the best. The best, if you ask me, health and size by gas in the world, called human lab podcast check him out on his two grand twitter and youtube. Most importantly, Andrew, is a great human being and has quickly become a great friend and now a quick few second mention of each sponsor check them out in the description is the best way to support the spot guest who got brave for web browsing element for hydrogen roca for style, indeed for hiring and master class, for

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When we meet again my friend, we should talk on each other's pockets once a year. I think we should make a deal. I was just talking to the guys this show called louis. I don't know if you know it and k yeah. The gay and there's this thing called: bang bang which people apply watching know exactly. What I'm talking about is the worst possible thing you can do in terms of meals, which is you go to a restaurant do a full meal and then go to another restaurant and do a formula and you pay you a exam. It'll say they go mexican italian sushi pizza bbq. I ihop that one is disgusting. This kind of thing reminds me of the joy of food. Last time we were hanging out, we went we'll see Joe, who comedy and then we went to eat russian food, and it was a particularly for export.

To go to a russian restaurant. I was the only person there. The didn't speak russian and eat russian food with you, and I because I felt walking ended. They trusted you. They didn't trust me yet the fainting about the the people there they were talking to you in russian and then they refused to sort of us switch to english, even though they understood. You speak no russian. This is russian house and ask them by the way. everyone by way of question, was the worst or are the best, depending on your perspective, cheap meal. Let's call it a picking out me obeyed could be achieved. They you ve ever had, or you want to have the second, the bucket list or something in the past, where you did that

something like a bang bang, which is like you're talking about multiple thousands of calories that you just feel horrible by yourself. You still keep eating because it's delicious, but also great company, something about the atmosphere is just re, screw the diet screw all the things, the knowledge You should be doing but thought out the window. I've done that surrounds onto you. I don't do this anymore, but the entire time. I was a person five years in the entire time. I was a pretended professor, so five year, so I basically followed the tim ferris low, carb diet, which, as you know, people can look it up, but it works really well. He was based if some you don't like good animal proteins. You know a fish and meat, and things like that low carb, low carb is unlike low. Glycemic stuff is mostly lentils and beans, and things and vegetables no dairy, no, I ain't

But then why did I in certain two hours, no pasta? So he wasn't low. Carbon is low lysine card and I did that network terrifically well just for energy levels, because I want to be drain and were and then one day a week, you're supposed to go full cheat day, and so I would do Do what used to be twelve hours, but then it became twenty four. You know the start to redefine what the day is and- and I would- and that was when costello, pretty young, and we will do it together, so I would get pieterzen and science and doughnuts, and I would just the fourth thing, and by the end of the day, you don't want to look at it. An item of food, you just repulsed by food We modification I made was the next day out fast, completely just to avoid the gastric distress of eating, aiming and I m so do them on sundays and monies at fast all day and the night tuesday. I felt pretty good again sunday and monday or be just feel like yours sliding down the slope of just blood sugar design,

terrible idea. Good idea, you know at the time, but I enjoyed it. My love doughnuts croissants, all that kind of stuff. What's interesting, is after stopping that whole protocol. Now I just try to eat, well, so they rode go now. I basically I do a pseudo intermittent faster I know I'm not really strict, but I'll started eating around eleven eat. My first meal around eleven, usually train in the morning, eat my last by it's somewhere around eight or nine and I'm not super strict. I might have some berries or something late at night, three meals, two meals to them to two meals and then maybe a little bit of snacking on some nuts in the middle. I ever fast twenty four hour, never done that long vast, except what I was doing, the the chagos and then an actual, There are a couple. There are ways to do she days that were finally like you're in a new city. You could try all the restaurants that you wanted yeah, I think TIM end, our mutual friend John roman elo did a thing was like a cheat day, mary fond where they did your marathons. Twenty six point three miles: they went to twenty six point, three different locations in new york.

They put it on a map and I never took it to that extreme, but lily. In overcoming days. One day that was there What were they were in that little bit of little bit each something at each glazier exactly amid there things that guys doing their thirties that you shouldn't do in your forties. I can say that gives them in my forties. Now. I just try me well well most days and what's interesting is about twelve to fourteen months ago. I completely lost all appetite for sweets. I wonder what happened. I still love savory foods of meat and butter and cheese, and I love vegetables to l a fruit also, but lost all appetite. So if you put a donut in front of me or ice cream or something that I just it's, it's almost aversive to me and I dunno what happened. I dunno what change is probably scientific expertise sure is, as the do may. Neuron allies dimensions that the sugar, the desire for that rush maybe has gone from europe.

From yourselves what was the most delicious, these croissant doughnuts? What what is there a thing that there is a place in portland? I dunno if it's still open, called little tease, bakery and have croissants that easily rival the precise and purse. People make a lot of the the pastry in paris, but it's really the bread in paris. That's amazing! We lived there when I was a kid and we did it. There and you know there they do the by get morning bake an afternoon bake and that there's nothing like the bread in paris or the people you know, and but if you're in that, if you're in the pacific northwest you know you can find amazing croissants there. What do you do with casalodi? Do the bread, butter or is it just as she used to? I don't eat them anymore. I don't have much of an appetite for them, even though they're not a sweet food, but I'm always putting butter on the croissant butter on the butter. Croissant

no jammed. I would never. I would never adulterate microsoft. I have to actually be honest about this cause people talk about steak and they talk about bread with butter. I feel like butters cheating, I feel like you're disrespecting the fundamental food by adding butter because butter, it's a it's a it's a god, elite version of ketchup you're there we diverge because for me bread is just a vehicle for butter. A cracker is just a vehicle for cheese. Also, that's just the the crocker and the brat is just texture. It's just that people look at you funny if you, if you just eat the butter straight occasionally. I do I got it, but so I put a little piece of bread underneath it not because I'm a low carb strictly love our thing, but just because otherwise, yet some funny looks that they pass says it is a vehicle for offers. Pasta sauce, it's interesting, but like india, in non bread

you have you, have the bread. I've ever had a lot of soul, searching on which part of indian is brings me so much joy. Is it the bread or is it all the sauces that come with a bread while there we diverge again because for for whatever reason and no disrespect to anyone, but indian food doesn't appeal to me while you're lucky man, because the number of calories in that food is next like non bread. I don't owe her number is made, but it is just soaked in oil and it just very intensely like the density of calories, is very, very high for me, barbecue outsize, probably the guy. I tell him and asked- and I said thinking about barbecue. I do love you. I do love me my dad's argentina me. I love steak. I love me. I mean argentina teresa sausage is an appetizer before you have stake it off with me

Dublin ii- and it's not just you know it's not just the men right. You see women, sometimes very petite, women eating states that are bigger than their their skull size slowly. A very slowly there and they all dessert too, which is essentially and they generally this one meal per day and that kind of reflexively that's all, Well, I think about it, because I often eat one meal a day, especially when I'm traveling it feels like a cheap meal because it allows it gives you a bit of more freedom to just lose yourself in the quantity of the food. I did the three day fast and I ate chicken breast. Like literally chicken, breast and nothing else, just grilled, and it was the most delicious piece of meat I've ever eaten and that, ah, that gives you the problem is when you fast for three days, you really Can't pick out. You really shouldn't go. Your stomach will shrink in size already you're got micro is almost completely depleted by fasting. A lot of you think o cleansers and faster great for the microbial, a quash microbe. I'm. However, when you start eating again, the microphone comes back better than it was before.

Fast for people, are now so again tat on the call their current pulling stuff up for the others out phelps with fear. Many calories is eating ten thousand what's interesting there. Some some cool physiology around this, the real he needed to eat. So much is not that he was born. That many calories impure movement that when you do exercise in water, even if it's warm water, the heat transfer and water is greater. So you burn far more calories and again here. I am, admittedly, lifting up from knowledge that was passed on me by TIM Ferris. I didn't so, but I checked it out in its absolute use so few exercise in water. Even it is not really cold water. Your court needs go way up, which is, while you get out the pool and are often really home, and four fans of the human lab. I guess and if you're not offend what What are you doing? You live? You would probably chuckled the fact there Andrew just cited his sources even on that still exist good. I don't know how you memory works, but the only persons is memories

spiralling jargon is yours, but my colleagues joke europe. Sort of schools through through my through my mind also in science, as you know, attribution is so baked into what we do and down It's interesting, pasok, now spend our time and social media attribute is not as common and but academia, you learn really early on that. If you give a talk about your data- and you cite all these amazing sources, all it does is make you look better. Whereas in social media and elsewhere, in the business sector, some, exciting other people, people feel as if it's gonna take away. Some of the credit. All it does is place you in the company of people that do really nice work so, treatment, and I have genuine and tremendous respect for him. He's been about ten there's a head on a huge number of health related things and other things in extremely kind in very thoughtful person. So it's also just a pleasure to shine light on other people. Tat were anxious to push back. I I know there's a culture of if you

write a paper standing on the shoulders of giants is a powerful thing, but there's also a culture of not giving credit to the strong. This idea in your paper and instead says kind of or imply that it's original there is a culture of kind of not celebrating others. I think people get most competitive in all walks of life, but especially in science when they're as the closer they get in the exactly the thing they work one and so there's this dance. You know, there's a few researchers in in each of the individual little things that you work on up, if you're studying a particular car, and you know that other asshole there also studying that particular and then you are not going to often give credit for the brilliant ideas that that other researchers doing- and I think one of the things you discovered and just as part of your nature and which is why

it's, it's really great, that you've have an audience and inspire others to do the same as you celebrate that other and steadier is great and you everybody wins, are irresistible by that initial instinct to be like and bore at like my neighbour, my neighbour gets a toaster, I get bigger, told her, yet mindset to you. It's not that I'm not competitive and certain domains, but yeah. I get great pleasure from sharing things that I find and dumb. I think that at the end of the day, you're as strong as your community and you can build a wonderful community just by pointing out things that you love these are all just loves. I see a paper and I love it only rarely do I think, oh I wish we had done that I usually think fantastic. Now I can just focus on something else cause they checked off that box and by the way you mentioned, pubmed and and bbq,

As you mentioned, I got a chance to hang out with the rick Rubin. Thanks to you is a friend of yours and you made the connection. That was a huge gift to my spirit. I guess he's a truly truly special human being, and It does a lot I could say by wise, especially human, being I'd love to my high. You, madam, but I just just mentioned on the pavement thing- is so interesting talking to him about music and both on a pike s and a privately and just listening to music, the other because when you mention a song, he does this thing. We like close his eyes and he finds that song in the album that we're talking about and he steps through the album you, you could see the brain like stepping through individual songs defined song in the album there's that kind of look up process and they put himself mentally that space of lake okay. This is

whatever the outcome is not just the once he produced, but always in encyclopedia of of music and so interesting. and also the thing. I really love a bonus something like a calmness that radiates from him that is located close your eyes and place yourself in in the in the place where that album was recorded. In the feeling of that album like that that silence: let's go there, let's go there together, Alice in wonderland and will go there together. You do a good rick ruin minus the beard miles the bit. His beard is epic right and you get fake appeared like that. You know how'd, you get me. Yeah, well, rigour, I'm very blasted to consider a close friend. I reckon I got introduced through when friend during the pandemic. And we started doing some face time together and just talking about things relate to science and health, and I am now a musician, I have no musical ability or talent. I have a good ability to memory,

lyrics, and I love lyrics and I love poetry, so. from a lot of questions about musicians that I happened to love that he's worth with a nose, and so he would give me stories. Musicians, and I would talk to him about health and then that event we formed a friendship where we talk about any number of different topics in life. And then we started spending time together in person when he was in town or near by and As you now know, your rick. In addition, all his incredible accomplishments has an income credible understanding of how to get brain embody into state right You pointed out he's willie, to do the things that allow him to help these incredible artist, get into the best state to do their craft. And so if he needs to sit there and be quiet with his eyes closed for a minute or two and were more he'll. Do that

as routines to allow himself to get him to state and its really inspired me to think about states of mind as something that you know. We'd all love to just at just flip. The switch and say were focused her were creative, but to actually ratchet through the the challenging steps in order to do than to figure out what one needs to do on a regular basis. To get into a proper state its not just going to come from a cup of coffee or a you know, a a lamp of a particular wavelength or something it's going to be those things, but it's also going to be really teaching oneself how to get into proper The eight in amazon have no such thing as a kind of self hypnosis. Yes, I do. Because hypnosis is a con. You limit the context, you're very alert and you're very calm, and he has a number of these different practices, And- and so we will talk about those and then we also enjoyed a lot of discussions about deep neuroscience. In fact, I introduced wrecked

a friend of mine who is a neurosurgeon in neuroscientist and they become friendly. You know, rick is one of these people that he sort of defies definition, an incredibly kind, incredibly private person too. So you know I'm I'm being respectful of that, but and and then, of course, he's a friend of your podcast and so what I learned. That idea just made natural sense to introduce you- and I know he really enjoyed meeting you end up talk about your lot in enough, of course, in a positive light, you know, I think his derek sean to getting into these states of mine and his willingness to do that has completely transformed my routines. Around life. Life just before doing a very long, podcast recording the solar ones, which often take me several hours or more six hours to record cement more sometimes less. I realise that there is a certain brain state associate, with that. So I have to really limit the kind of interactions I have for the two hours before I actually walk and talk out loud through my neighborhood people. Think I'm crazy, but I live in a neighborhood where there are a lot of crazy creatives.

well you're, not crazy! Well at least not institutionally writer defined as crazy. Yet, but you know getting into state of mind something that we'd all just imagine flip the switch, but rick really comments beat you have to do the work to do the work maybe. Linger on that elucidate a little bit more. Your process of how you get in that space, that's really interesting, as I have to admit. I do everything last minute before podcast, I dunno like there's a lot of anxiety because, like whatever, if I have to pack If I have to set up stuff, you were luckily a few minutes. You shut up a few minutes. Would you were an academic is right on deck right, I'm a, but the stress is immense, and on top of that, you look at like a situation with rick. Rubin is all I had to set up microphones in front of him and

Is that stress the he knows a lot about microphones? Would he say which have really loved his egg? How close do you like the microphone to be? You think that's a very rick reuben kind of thing right that the details really matter here, the deed. really matter right down into your relationship to the microphone right, yeah distance and whether or not it brings out the tambor in your voice. But of course, as we does, he he produces music. He also said, like you know, he is the professional He said how close do you like it to be, and he said with a gentleness on us where had like an existential crisis crisis? Well, I don't know I he gave me so much like, while, like me, like an artist like that, the microphone distance is a decision you're supposed to egg. Well, I have to say- and this is actually come up in some of our conversation-

are you are, you are an artist and actually Joe rogan. Once I'm talking about podcasting in it the fact that he's always trying to get better at it. You know- and he described podcasting at one moment as an art right and it is as if certain you a communication and there's a cadence in a rhythm that, when its working, it really can facilitate the transfer of information. When it's not It doesn't mean, obviously Joe just being himself has tapped into that cadence that allows- and this made so many people expect you hear him talk when his case and in general, I think part of the art is using the world as you get bigger audience change, who you are there one quart that I've seen out there where he says you know. Unlike the talk about himself, he says: do not, unlike the fish they got through the net there's no stage version of me riah how he is person is how is he in the world and of course, there's new monsters, I fried in his different relationships, of course,

but it's true. I mean we ve had the uniting great fortune of spending time with him out away from microphones, so to speak, Joe Joe. So can you speak to you? in that process. You mentioned the walking and the talking to yourself cause as fast area. I try and do a couple of things. First of all, I when I was a kid I had a little bit of a grunting tick when I was five or six. I would feel this build up of tension in my throat, and I would, It's grunting ticket. If I get very tired, I start to do it still. We actually know that this is related to these basil ganglia circuits for go, no go, you've got an accelerator and brake. Basically in your neural circuitry, and on kids, with direction c d. The brake doesn't work quite as well. And so one thing that happens if I wake up in the morning- and I am especially from one arrested- If I'm not well rested, idea. Hypnosis were yoga diedre in order recover my sleep that works really well, but then, once I'm into the process of preparing the podcast,

I've already gone through my notes. I know what I want to say: more lasting you kind of general contour, and then I take a walk and I'd. I try to it so no phone with me and I try to us ass. Whether not my energy is to hire too low for podcasting, because when you podcast, as you know, you have to punch out a lot of material but then their terms. We really need to slow down and emphasise and articulate, and so what I do is I don't I've never nerve. This. What I do actually is, I will recite the lyrics of songs for about ten minutes. Songs I love While I walk out loud, it comes, you focuses you. What is it if I think it gets my vocal cords warmed up and it also do sing or speak the I often sing them and unfortunately nobody hears

and as I do this, I start to evaluate whether or not I'm straining to get the words out or whether or not I'm straining to make them slow enough, so that I can articulate them. So it's their days when I have so much energy that I try to speak faster than I should in order to articulate properly. There are other days when I'm tired and I can't sort of keep up with my thoughts what I try and do is assessed that and then adjusted. Transmission, the r p m. So to speak, for as I can be very quickly and then I can slow down sign, I can change the cadenced a voice and when you teach in the classroom, you learn, as you know, cause you're an excellent each had watched your lectures in the classroom as you, teach in the classroom when you want to slow down every teacher knows you turned to the white border chalkboard and you start writing ready, gives you. Break and then you turn around and you fire back the kind of machine gun fire of of information.

Slow down or you underline something when you podcast, you don't have that opportunity. There no visuals in my podcast So what I try and do is always get my voice summed up and make sure that I'm thinking and speaking at approximately the same rate I also do this thing. Is I put my vision into panoramic vision when I walk, which is very calm And then I actually start to remind myself of the purpose of part. Asking the sounds very mission statement ie, but you asked what I do I remind myself, first and foremost that what I say to communicate. What I want to come through is the beauty and utility of biology, and I we feel comfortable, saying the word beauty publicly now about science things thanks to you, because I love. And beauty, yet live in it love, beyond your answer: you're in love and beauty, but also darkness and hatred, and,

fear of time at the extreme in pike ass. You have to adjust the after addressed the shadow, also the shadows I, but I think about the. I want to communicate thee. the beauty and utility of biology, and then I I check my My emotional state. I want to make sure that I'm not angry about anything if I am determined to set aside for the podcast cause, that's not a place for my whatever I might be dealing with I also really start to feel into the parts of the research in the papers. I found that I really love, because that's the part of me that I, like the most frankly and on the podcast, if there's a paper like, for instance, we have a paper, gives me a podcast coming out soon. about em heat as a tool you know saw no, but some other things and in research, as I learned so much about these heat shock protein. and the use of cyanide in finland for increasing growth hormone, but also for the

we a mental illness, illness and I realize out, I fell in love with this literature literatures, just a beautiful literature. These people are true pie here's for doing this work now everyone's in the sauna, but this was twenty years ago. The way the x when Sweden were amazing, with all these finnish people with thermo couples up their rectum to measure temperature swimming pools. It is it's hilarious in great, and so I start to think about it you know, I just start to really access my love of the the work. And then when we finally sit down, meaning my produce rob, and I and record I just sort of wanted just baskin in sharing it It's like the little version of me when I was six or seven I used to spend all weekend. Reading the encyclopedia guinness book of world records making. My mother drive me places to introduce me to add this obsession with being animals. When I was a kid meet these people and then on Monday, I would insist on giving a lecture in class just a so that Firstly, what it is I just tryin access that that child, like energy, end so I want to be clear that the goal is always to make.

Formation interesting, clear, an actionable and if that's also surprising than there than that's a bonus, but that's Firstly, the process but yeah, I'm I'm singing and talking in and getting into state and are you I feel very sheepish about sharing any of this is the first time I've ever shared it out loud, but but rick was the one who encouraged me to find a process that works and continue to develop that process and not let any thing get near that process? People in my personal life know this and when it's time flick, I don't, what else is going on? I'm I'm moving into that brain state and is probably a process like there for anything. You do in life that you take seriously so that people have perfected is is athletes they give olympic level They have to have a process like this note. I think tiger woods actually was taught self hypnosis, quite young and use self hypnosis, often during his tournaments. Sometimes too great.

success in other times lesser. Is there other places in life the use kind of a product like a mental protocol to get ready. Many of the best areas of life are their own form of hypnosis. Right, I'm sure you know that you're in hypnosis, if, for instance, you're in a movie and something happens in you, feel the emotional left, with a with without being self anxious about it. Ah, yes, I think that arm one thing that we ve tried to do in our house is around meal times to try and set a state that food is just something that we just throw down our our throats an unfortunate that unite, cooks really well, and so I train give her the space to do that and it that's a whole thing of her getting into state and then for the cooking, the further preparation of I can just see it. I just see the way she approaches the whole thing in the plenary. In serving it in an I'm, an not a cooker but absolute their important roles

It could be a very good either I get this. Than about. Is there anything better in this world than that feeling at especially with the family, around a table does the war, that I don't know there is a gap, the cold outside of though the cruel world cannot touch you in this place that you return to and if they mean did you grow up eating? Yours is a family yeah. I really don't know television not forward They have television period, the outsider from her. So most of my time was spent. You know, like us, a cat outdoors, just running around playing saga. Imagine you in this like dirt or concrete lot between two very high rise buildings playing soccer. For an hour in like athletic here you only see in eastern europe. You know how

you come to the states and people where there are let a gear. You gotta europe and you see, made the soccer culture, but you see I thought gear that you just don't see anywhere else. That's interesting to me. I will grow pretty poor, so at first was always wear my brother's coups in older brother brothers. Close and they were like old, like that, I favour things were american things that didn't understand. It would be like a pepsi shirt or something and urges that was the gear, and it was like too large for me, but I thought I was the coolest. And ever just why this fancy like kind yea, my type a fashion you do something about. I feel like an inner eastern europe. They were Let a gear were like the guys will exist, but yet I know that is like fancy stuff that like those of the cool kid. I say, cool soccer players of football players that like were in a league of some kind, so they would get uniforms

or they the somehow I was thought anyone had anything nice had to do so thing really bad to get it. That does my way. That's a view of the world, because I again, I guess I didn't understand how it is possible to be rich, because most of us were surrounded by people who are poor and a life is beautiful, simple and say why escape that life, but he still admire the the cool occur. We got Donald those lake. Why a world. Does this place come from like who invented this? This is a fascinating view from a child's perspective of lake of capital that should really be the fat you. A dinner together is really interesting. My parents, divorce, when I was in lesson so then there was a total fracture of any family structure. But, prior to that we ate dinner together every night. I was expected to know how to use my knife and fork and that you know is like a very structure,

thing. I don't have kids do that now. You know if I ever have kids, they gonna do that only ass. She on the way over her out thinking ass. You know, I really want a lot of kids. I want it like a whole litter and I'm asking you if lex has kids and our kids and light than we can, we can let pit them against each other, which jitsu Jeff, this is my chance. It redemption the long J augur right, they'll all maybe engineers are physicists yeah. They want to be biologists but it, but in all seriousness I I look forward to the day that are our kids play together, yeah, I think, there's something assisted the family dinner, the ritual, the family dinner, but also the special occasion, dinners like where there's a little more preparation, a little more cooking, whether it's on the weekend or for some holiday. In russia was a thing that actually find completely missing. For the most part,

in america. Is there was neighbors? There was a you broke, the walls between families much more commonly like there would be kind of regular characters like a sitcom moments. You know, if you will, second, is never just the family. There's always like other characters, there's bursting in the door bursting in the door must are doing that here, if you are showing over your actually, I know where you live. I think people want to respect like you know, Michael Mouse, that lives next door to me, and I think people want to respect each other's privacy or something like that I think what we all get super busy- and you know, like it's kind of work, to do this dinner together or you know if you see it as the thing that needs to be scheduled, it's work will get busy, there's a lot of stuff going on, but as part of a ritual, a part of the culture, the all all of those was broken down in it, and then you realize that,

like later looking back that those things you miss the vessel that life is about, like all the stupid stuff, you doing It was a career, whatever all busy thing, those on matter. What matters is the people in? in academia. A you know, this change a few years, of course, but one of the great I was professors will start by your officer, let nobody said said If an appointment, there's a guy when I was a presser in san diego, I got him harvey carney's. Member of the national academies, the the truly the world's expert in the evolution of vision and evolution of brains generally end up shop in my lab and he was just start talking to the students and post docs and I mean in and a pure encyclopedia and then you'd at some points, a hurry. I gotta go, need happy, kicking out right where this guy he's a first David climbed decline, fell to his out same way.

She david landfills, interesting when he a student of his went to on to create the beavis and butthead cartoon, and one of them is David he's a physics professor. Now people can look, well and David's, one of those guys who just walk into your office. He just sit down and you just start talking to you is in and so there's kind of a family fields like cheers or sign felder. Where, though, shows where some wages walks in and ah yes you and I both share a love of the community. Around things in pakistan is a little bit more isolated. I should say for the guest episodes. The preparation is completely different because it's more cumbersome and so there I don't do any his business to put myself into state, just try and make sure that the guest is taken care of, and I do without the questions have been asked before, but those actually really like the interview episodes far more than I like this doing- solo ones, dare psychologically me I just like learn. From San directly. Yet because you asking and expert about something sitting here with you when we recorded the podcast where your guests,

the hebrew menlo park, gas and for the first time and finally Someone was explaining to me the difference between machine learning, artificial intelligence and all these other things. You know, and I'm I've finally forgiven you for making me cry about castelo on carbon. But because it helped me move through it by it, but in all seriousness that the interview ones are or a sheer pleasure, the solo ones I really enjoy, but their their their work. Sometimes I think, like I'm gonna, sweat a little blood prepping for that. What's interesting cause, I I do think prepping for interviews is having a similar process might be also very valuable like after I had to think about. As I think when you do a conversation several hours, especially as a high stakes: one like what you- and I know it's more like- is chatting soiled orders and gonna shit Fatima, two other you never know- we can never end knowing you will probably be innocent, pretty controversial topics in a few minutes.

I was the edge more you're. There are a number of topics that I just completely avoid, and my response to those is always that, I have a lot of opinions about that, but not a lot to say you know four, whereas you use become far braver, in terms of the topics you encounter and some of your guests have been a bit controversy right. Some of them are our people that now a lot of people that a lot of people dont like and you ve been willing to just sit down, and maybe the jujitsu thing. I dunno I it is tricky when my goals for this year is to talk to people that a lot of people really don't like, or you can share of that, and here I am hoping for the people that they're in prison right. Major political leaders have been thinking a lot about how to talk to really difficult controversial figures

fine together, something with them. That's deeply honest their nature about them. The ideas, They have about the world like reveal something real and some people, yet we very care for some people are very good at hiding the real inside, even from themselves that something Think about a lot. I think about dictators, the past that put myself a the mindset How do you reveal something real about the person to themselves? I think that to me- and you kind of spoke to that, but. A great conversations. One one were both of you discover something new that guy it's not just so I love that

to that. My favorite thing what you mentioned, which is allowing a curiosity, ask all kinds of questions, get excited to learn from an expert, but also to push them to discover something about themselves, about their ideas together and then that discovery, and sometimes it's us like we don't see it in the moment, but the audience hears it. It's weird is to say, like compared to when you're musician you play with other musicians, illusion Often the mommy I had all its egg is working right, its work, it will be you don't really see the big picture impact of what its working right actually feels like and that's where the audience and could see that. Look. If you talk to somebody evil.

The you know, for me as an interviewer, I have to empathize with that person. If I want to understand at the pomace of their mindspace and to put yourself in their mind set, you really have to become that you have to put you have to understand the evil inside of you like you. Have you can't just think if somebody's in power and has used that power to abuse others, you can't just be edge? What I personally a person who seeks to understand you can just be a journalist asking generic questions. You have to put yourself in in a place where you're somebody was given a lot of power. Slowly starting to use that power and what is that person become? Who are you? I have to plug myself into those moments in my life in the past. We have been angry at something and we have been cruel because

angry in little ways, but then you magnify them at scale and after after go there and that's very human and then after look at another person from across the table from And I still you're there too, and You had more opportune to do truly cool things and, and then, and then, where they get after plug myself into places where I've been or can imagine, I can go where was cruel to others and was unaware of it. I was in my space whilst thanking them good, and I was doing not good again. I've never not reggie. Doing those things in a large scale, but also I have done it at a small scale. Sure- and I plug myself into that and then we're we're here where two, if it's somebody who's in prison, if it's somebody who's a dictator, we're in that space where evil is, is

all of us have the capacity to do the evil, and I have to imagine myself being able to do that evil and then we're here together in that dark, dark place and then, if it, if it's just write, something real can actually come something a person's childhood. A may be awakening to realize given that I thought it was a good and am not, and for that happens when you truly emperor empathize those moments, a discovery are beautiful, but they also happens science when you precision and you realize that progress, even war from costly realise, beautiful things too, They're on this element of you know evil and sociopath ii that you are young had us Notion that we have all things inside us and that we all the capacity to be good or evil etc, but that I have ever

good fortune of working with somebody who has deep understanding country, but also psychoanalysis and young in theory, and He said to me recently. He said you know whether or not all we have all things inside them is still debated in this house. Ecology, community and in the neuroscience community and as a matter of philosophy, but there are certain people, not many, but there are certain people, room dave. actually lived out. Many versions of their possible cells in the first place and so those are unique. Individuals, then, even if they opt into these things it out as you mention, is it at all minor level, as opposed to the impact on people. Negatively at at at at at scale, so being to access those different parts of oneself is, is key You ve been willing to step into that. You know my part gases, not one in which we we get down to those matters beyond, but Yes, you never know we might do in episode on on narcissism in sociopath pithy the thing that

I took away from a conversation with a friend. He was of the years in special operations and the intelligence community said you know it's. If you look at somebody's passed at some point you'll come to understand some pretty good reasons as to why they became who they are. But you to draw the his words red line someplace and what he was referring to was the fact that certain people, at least in the eyes of certain com, he's deserve to be eliminated as a consequence of their actions right, regardless of what drove them to those actions so that it gets right down to the line between psychotic nature, nurture neuroscience and the law, and This complicated complicate the aims I can think of a number of people that I would love to hear you interview, and here I'm not revealing the reasons why, but except for the fact that I you would be uniquely suited to bring out the import,

components of the conversation that other people have not been able to do, which our friends into lives homes this is one of the most serious and yet dislike people the planet she sort of synonymous with deception bomb. I dont know if there been any. Real interviews of her. Since the whole thing I've been followed case. I listen to the book and I I followed a because it was happening in my hometown right there, Theranos was right up the road, the building. Still there it's interesting, it's it's some, some of the most premier realistic in silicon valley, but nobody wants it it of like it's very hard to sell a home where somebody committed suicide or committed a murder. Even if it's a beautiful home this or feel like the Theranos building is that building, and so albion have a really interesting interview. I would love to hear that interview one of the most interesting dark. Human beings in science

yeah, and then there are even be do or say you know, wasn't even sign right, it might have all been deception, it might have been one part. Deception. One part. Go setting mixed in with clearly that there were so many factors impacting what happened. I think the big difference between our nose and that story, and some of the other stories about silicon valley, where people promised a lot more than they could deliver, as they were promising things that directly. Related health and healthcare. People were taking blood tests with the you're, standing that the data we're getting was important information about sexual and may diseases and other diseases and making real world decisions. On the basis of that, if you remember, when the iphone first came out and steve jobs are still alive in the phones, were dropping calls if you held it in

regular way in his response, was a little flip. He said it is pay folks, it's a phone as if I don't get so worked up, but people held him understandably to a very high standard issue. It sort of it seemed, and I dont know because out certain wasn't, there seem like she sort of adopted this idea that you could get it wrong. bunch of times before you get it right, except if the allegations are true and I think they she was found guilty, I believe, on a number of counts, there are a number of the things that they were doing. Work were impact in real world decision making. What so Steve's point about the phone is just a phone depends on the call you calling nine one one than its, not just a phone right, but in the case of blood tests in disease units that serious. I think that the fairness case with super interesting. because of the number of people from major universities and from government that both trusted her end the number of people who did not trust her, and either didn't speak up or no known, listen to them. It was only in the forensic version of it

runs it oh yeah. I knew that she was lying etc, etc. They were lie to multiple, more than those lies. Apparently, but I have a interest in the neuroscience of of narcissus sociopath? He and some of the darker aspects of the mind so yeah, maybe What they will do a podcast together, yeah me like in the in the in the uk. Early nineties version of talk shows where we darken the lights, and we we do it. You can use your voice. Does your voice is much more sinister, sounder in my good cop, bad cop, you oughta be interesting from a scientific perspective of somebody who was a sociopath her a psychopath. How to reveal something real about them? I think.

That requires not just while I don't know what that requires requires the same skill that it takes to be a good therapists right in some therapists won't work with sociopaths because they don't feel any progress can be made. Some therapists will work with sociopaths because for the wealthy I say often do they want their money. I think most therapists are good and benevolent, but there are some that will do it just the same way. Lawyers will work with criminals, knowing their criminals right and oftentimes, because criminals there are certain domains of psychiatry that are more tractable than others right boy. Wiser interesting. I shall just mention because they have this phenomenon of splitting so in that in the world. Kaji the ideas that being neurotic is actually the goal. The idea that you could be you know,

feel something and then work a lot to overcome it or have some sort of defence mechanism in place, but that's not destructive. That's actually a pretty healthy state to be in its provided. It's not destructive. Psychotic is truly delusional thinking about reality and the ideas that borderline split intermittently split between psychotic end neurotic. That's why it's called this beautiful work by Melanie climb scribes this down, which I'm just now, what kind of dulling into, but you know, the borderline is the person who is like. I love you, I love you. I love you and then truly feels as if they hate you and you become the bad object Border lines are challenging for psychologist because of the splitting right schizophrenia, x or challenging because of the d, detachment from reality and narcissus are challenging because their often so charming that even a therapist searching,

I believe you mention, called s wrath. What talk is definitely not a narcissist he's one of more humble people, but he is brilliant. Thanks again to you. You, you ve, connected as I had the pleasure of a higher conversation them. You had a conversation with them. I really enjoyed it on the package. You has come from the same size from the same place. Maybe for journeys, fats and levels. We were post ox together, carla's, truly Michael Jordan, the wind Gretzky, five children the amazing marriage to also in america, amazing scientists, his wife, Michel monkeys in our neurology department, Stanford in incredible thinker, writer, very kind person, humble speaking of getting into state. Sorry, parliament out you on this, but coral, despite being at the highest level was of science and engineering and practising psychiatrist his office is literally a coat closet with a small table lamp,

you meet with Carl. If you manage to meet with them, because he's very hard to get to, you ok you sit down as if you're going through some interrogation in some spy novel he'll ask you what Most excited about lately and I've got eleven minutes or something and that's a meeting with car, because he's that bit but he doesn't have the office with the pictures of the kids. In the thing All that is kept elsewhere. So in order to get asked why he work in this office right you work on light and channels of white. Things relate the light of all things here: you're in this dark music. This is what gets me into the state of mind, be able to do what I want to do very rick reuben at issue in in not that all the same person, but very similar in that he's, figured out the physical space he needs in order to get into the optimal state to do the work they need to do in this lifetime, and it's very unusual right. If I, a window, I kind of freak out. I can do it here for a while we're in this black cuvier floating in space, of course,

but I find that amazing that these that these people that are operating this super, level are willing to actually deprive themselves of. A lot of conditions There are sitting there with us with the secretary coming in offering them espresso every five minutes and things that no, no, no that's new york neuroscience. The new york neuroscience mafias, kind of famous for having all day you know: tickets to the opera, on this and that an and they they enjoy lifestyle. Lot. The new heard Now there was a woman. There definitely is when they know who they are if people don't know Andrew huber minutes from the west coast and now he's just starting wars with the neuroscience mafia, they do amazing science. They think as they they love their lifestyle and that's wonderful, but the culture is very different. Yeah, carl- and silicon valley in general can pride itself on this kind of monk, like it says, system right, sir, Then individual scale be deliberate by controlling the environment. I think about that with the conversations too, I haven't been deliberate about that either. In terms of

controlling the space you're in Usually, yes by curtains, all those kinds of things there is nothing like the lex friedman. Podcast duty First of all, when you, when you do them remotely, I always feel like I'm in a witness relocation from him. You only get the coordinates at the last moment and you always get the sense that there people behind the walls that you know are recording things. Were there there's something about creating a feeling I ever since it does a robot of their there's the several throughout this place. I think I think part of that. Part of creating a feeling would be having the robots. Say moving around and having a mind their own, because that would most closely put guests. Other humans, they interact with into place. That's closest to my mind, because the two engineering mind.

and one where one things come to life is a beautiful place and whatever that is, there could be like art. But to me robots are art is I am thinking about that both for me and for gas? I am also thinking about the difficult gases to return to you said Elizabeth homes, the what one person, maybe a couple things of innocent one per someone. I think I would like to talk to is delay maxwell, I always get afraid right before you reveal these kinds of things, and now I know why get afraid yeah, I mean again assuming that she did the things that people claim she did their despicable right. I mean these were under age, children right there's, just no version of the story where she did the things she was he's doing and is still called him could person there just in my mind right and yet I

There is tremendous interest in understanding like what led her to do all that so little least where some people lose a couple thing. So one is. At a high level- and you say that he believes or her current story is- is that she's, the victim of who a Jeff Epstein on my? I think I'll, just leave that there, as as as so, this is. These are ideas that you're facing The nature of truth and the nature of the human mind is what it is, and this is imagined folks if you wanted to room, but the person that says that what do you do next? Let me also say that aid were or rarely nancy never. I rarely mention names that I'm interested in talking to without having made significant progress

in already securing that interview. So people sometimes asked me about let him is the lansky environment putin. I do not bring them up lightly in terms of theirs. In terms of there being a path and actual conversation, that's something I regret, but I'm not sure I know what to do with it, but in the case of all the people just mentioned, I haven't been preparing for those conversations. I only really preparing seriously when it's confirmed, because it's such a heavy burden and One of the things I regret in having mentioned a conversation with Vladimir putin before the one you claim broke out and the past few years, is that our mention a very loosely very casually and

thou having really deeply put myself into place that I'm ray you talk to him and that that is a tricky thing, because then the internet, the audience in general and just me when I was in back tonight, themself think well, why are you speaking so lightly But these topics y know you had a long standing interest in talking to him, think now. You know why don't understand How sit down our conversation, with somebody like that, but that's not it and in the rain, my skill set right eye for like, maybe not in the range of things that you drawn to somehow not so much I mean I would watch that observed with with great interest. Will you did in episode recently with this guy? Who was a? former cyber criminal turn stateside right at even so. The government now

and there was a segment in their remit his name, bread, Johnson, rich answer. There was a edmund in their where he talked about stealing a lifetime's work of collected point from some elderly woman and everything she had and then he opened admitted that he felt no remorse, which is the way he discovers purely sociopath and then, of course, we learned that he grew up in a family where com behavior was very common kind of imbedded in his I'm notions of what typical behaviors were, and I found myself as somewhat conflicted, but also hung up in a hung up on this idea that you know I mean he was. You know he had behaved as a sociopath and went with a sociopathic way, and it created a an internal conflict because he's quite charming gaston his stories are: terrific, especially, I really enjoyed his discussions about. How are you go out and I'm doing

these things out of a desire to please his his girlfriend You know so he was in serviced other people, despite being sociopath, he could say he was in service to them as a way to extract, gets very complicated, I think the reason I went in the sciences that it at some level it's more about that than it is opinions and judgments, and I dont know that I have the ability to suspend judgement over the away from the kind of top level tours of my initial reaction to like. If it's true like the gleam maxwell's in lisbon, was in it other sociopaths. It is one of just gotten revulsion and repulsion, but that could also reflect the fact. I'm not, as you know, neurologically sophisticated somebody that can spend all the plates of of empathy. Forget forgiveness, but also holding people accountable. The same time. That's that's work that takes, if you think about that's three forebrain Turkey is having to work in parallel. That's it events reaching chest.

A game of go in a game of checkers. I guess I'm playing checkers atlanta nozzle one. actually holding in your mind into the rascal conversation. You're you're, very disturbing, dear interviewed, a very good conversation, but the skill of conversation really tricky not be self deprecating, I'm being just objective, I'm not good a conversation I'm working very hard to getting better at it and, I'm speaking not about just passing. I am speaking just normally if I- and I have anxiety, suffers from social interaction, I do really. Huge maya. So this is interesting because I never detect that in you ever and I think there are people that we both know that have said to me that they too feel anxious and yet Your voices, steady

see any perspiration. Ah you appearing rustling shoulders are scarce this room and is rick reuben. Is that when you first meet him, intimidating lee com, but as yet to normal, you realize that his kindness and the generosity that you sense is real, but I would never in a million years have guessed the you get anxious in conversation has make another quick comment. This may come off to teach you andrew, where maybe you ve already got the same, but. having mentioned putin, windermere lansky guilt Maxwell. There is a natural question: how does lex have access to these people? Who does it?

work for they call it a z. Why works for him for who worked for him right does he have on others this? I'm? Actually I ask mice when I look in the mirror, just somebody who can have enjoys conspiracy theories it may I want to ask question like why are usually ask in the following way like how the fuck am I so lucky like who I b m, I robot being controlled by somebody else or equip houses houses my life right now. What is happening? It really does feel like a simulation. So let me just speak the ft to do several things. First of all, They have no boss. I know I know of nor am I controlled. By any intelligence agencies of any nation. We're going to get your dog legs. I said I could talk to I'm scared of getting a dog so fallen in love, so deeply. I think that next time I

no problem. Yeah, I'm just going to bring a puppy leave it here now and then you'll never see me again. I mean I love dogs so much, but the I was also surprised, and maybe I have never talked in intelligence, easy, which is very interesting to me. Again a I that you aware of cause there very good at communicating. Right well with what I've been very suspicious on this exact point. That's the downside of kind of a being introvert have anxiety about social interaction, but then having so much love thrown away because connect opaque ass black ass of a powerful way of connecting people, so people can with you with love that I really love thy appreciate, but you're like exactly this question like like wise. This person, where the russian accent talking to me and shock, show me

so much love, because because sorry to interrupt you again, but it's what we do and it's a sign of interest by the way to sometimes some yeah I've a colleague at Stanford and she said you know, interruption. Seventy five percent time is a sign of real interest in what the person the saying, if nothing else, what you're very lovable weather that's what I mean I learned about hedgehog in the fog from new. You know when I learned but he loveable people love you because your lovable, I love, love. Ok, so one hundred percent and its an especially here in Austin texas people are so so amazing I go just hugs interest. I love people, but you want a family here. You ve been drawn on a per cent. Nobody here I take it take what you said is a challenge, in terms of having a family with kids and there they do jujitsu and obviously defeat you and make you miserable for you

It uses the father because he couldn t you be a great deal to build up an army of good you just to people. But yes, I love a family. I would love to have children, but I want to finish that point come nervous about a nervous about the way people perceive it. We are seeing forrest, gump type character like what or who I am I've I seemed to be in this whole like the world seems to work. Is you just try? You try to be yourself like you, try to find yourself with maybe the better way to say it and just be that be kind to people worker. South and say a few tb that wants to control you or to tell you what to do is be free,

put love out there in the world and doors open. This karma thing seems to work. Ah something like how the hell did how the hell am. I friends is you now how the hell did I get a chance to eat barbecue with rick Rubin? Big doors had not yet said. Marilla had barbecue. He now you re authorities at ease from new york. Any new yorker that I know, has very high standards for food. Is it bad restaurants? Don't last long in new york and bar You cancers, oh yeah, taxes, barbecue work, but I would also add You win whether not you realize you're, not you took tremendous risk come from the same original community, which is academic science right and to be my tea and to start post lectures on line it is risky write to you know I was third or fourth man in on in terms of podcasting as an academic, as you do, rogan many times David Sinclair had gone on there. You know that the especially before that depends,

make the agency many academics and scientists talking in a public facing way. So you took tremendous risk right. You took, let us risk always wearing that jacket and tie right. The only time I haven't seen you in that truly is one we rolled jujitsu, which is I'm being generous myself saying a road you just were busy. You choked me out in front of him hundreds of those really risk it was. It was agreed that it was great fun and I I I don't have it that to have a beginners mine is a beautiful, but I have, admittedly, I have not been digging the classes. I'm going to are truly am species should there's a small chance I might find myself in austin a bit more often in the in the near future, but deep well, if you're out in san francisco, she trains mark Zuckerberg. He just started so that oh yeah, you guys get interesting, sure, I'll ease. Actually me people listen to and absorb, perhaps his fancy he would being listen to it. As a great. You took tremendous risk as an academic to do what you did so

I do believe that when one takes intelligent risk because you can dire crash your career, you can do all sorts of self destructive or the destructive things when taking receipt risen and they paid off right and you take different risks at different stages. I I don't throw round the word admiration lightly. I mean I admire that you were in the classroom, mighty like coming to illness and put online. Ah you one of early interviews with Ito porthos, who is very hard to get to I have communicate with the dole of utah. She definitely talk to. I can't wait to talk to him, I'm dying to talk to him. I was supposed to do some course teaching with him, ah right before the pandemic hit, and then it got cancelled because it couldn't travel but getting to him as pleadingly challenging. So you do have this incredible ability to get to people and for The trust you and you- and I think it's through you're authenticity and I think it's the fact that you are willing to go places where people haven't been before. You know that this is what was the same.

pioneers howdy spot the pioneers, though the people with rose in their backs. You know so that that's the you know. Yeah in and the actual quote that I lifted from terrorists. Ignacio who's gonna sit horses, terry, you should talk to tear he's a company under a scientist out the sulk institute of empowered use, investigator, etc. But so you, taking a risk that other people have not taken is that's a real thing and to do it with integrity and rigour, that's a real thing. And so yeah compliment you in, and I hope it can help it lands and lands deeply. But I also hope that We hear that and understand that it's one thing to do. What other people are already doing boldly it's a whole other thing too launch an entire art former venue, and you did that. And you didn't write a book hopefully will

Maybe you didn't go write. A book lot of academics have written books. You went online Jordan, pierce another controversial character. He did it to all those lectures that he felt and then he led to this other thing. So you know it there's karma and then there's also having the spine to just. Put it all. On the line and do something for which there is no prior example to hold onto You go through those headwinds, the really fascinating, actually a lot of people tell me about you and your humor and what they, the reach of a podcast is really fascinating. It's not the it's, not the numbers of people. Listen, I don't know if that's important at all is what's important is like that depth of connection you, how certain people, it really moved them like a good, and they really get you. So there's a lot of big andrew human

Has it really get you it's not just the size is the stuff between the lines is costello. It's the whole picture of a scientist that fines, beauty in biology and reveals a and they love you You know because it was on television at the time. I follow I demand an ox story pretty carefully and don't watch television, but whenever I would travel if there was a tv and the airplane of find myself, I'm getting wrapped in two things like locked up abroad, and these things are the. Would you want you terrified to travel anywhere, let alone commit a crime overseas. You know that the scenes of some of these prisons, or so dramatic- and you know I mean her case- got a ton of interest and then I you know she went and then was a student at the university of washington and has talked quite openly about

how she was treated in how people assume guilt, then you know- and eventually you know she was exonerated, and you know we can only go by what we know what the law determine. But you know these are people that the world is fascinated by. I would, I'm guessing about a third of people have already decided this person is despicable. Why would you ever give them an audience about a third of people I think, are open. Two or at least interested in learning more about them, and then I think that there. Meaning third kind, the third that did the category that I put myself which is what can I learn about people and myself, even in my revulsion right, What can I learn off? What can I learn about myself from listening to this conversations with somebody that I it that I like to think im, not talking about amanda. Here, I'm talking about the other people. You were talking about that. I I don't. I can't relate to right. Talk you hearing conversations with than about people that you cannot relate to

is informative. Otherwise, whole mind literally becomes insular, where there's an inch same thing, elsa had the ever since the one Cream broke up one of the. Questions. Those asking myself. I am not be dramatic. It's just a very simple, honest question that I think, journalists that operate in a war zone or documentary film that everything that got to do to me have to be honest with themselves. Are you willing to put at risk your life for things? You do willing to die for it. What what are you willing to die for? It sounds very dramatic, but whenever risk goes up I mean I don't know you. You asked that if you want to take out a trip out the space on a commercial spaceflight, You have to. Are you willing I wanted to die for this for this journey

as there really small I just watch apollo thirteen again great movie had grown, not I'm not gonna spit logo to space available No, I would operate a hide, so I'm I just. It feels like a feels like a terrible place to die. Yeah well, first of all, death anywhere great yeah, although you know I have a song teed up in my phone. If might, if the plane starts to go down there, when the last year, it's a rare saw? Nobody knows, is a song off a bee track of my favorite ban, which is ranches uncle the sentence and nobody nobody. I love it and I listened to it almost every day ran through this. The sentence is confident that band is called ranch their famous bandied around. You really love those guys, love their music and this as the sentence, you can only find it on her, like a beside her out taken its dont know how to decipher tim armstrongs voice than you, Why won't understand the lyrics, but because some very very fast, but if

plane ever go anytime. There's turbulence. I put that thing in. I put the headphones in all like. Well, you know if it's time it's time, I'm gonna go out like this. I don't want to drift off into the galaxy just slowly as fixating and freezing If that sounds horrible, to say I wouldn't want to drown or put on a plane is ok, while on a plane, every lick. If the thing starts going down and there's truly nothing you can do might as well. This lesson your favorite song, yet true to our private go with the pixies was my mind like from fight club and just the car. Those who sit back, like god, the musicians playing at that attack. I know your she's venom and have not not so much a pixies, then actually, I should say that I just that was the where's. My mind was the chosen song for fight club at the end, the buildings down, or something like that, so that there are certain songs that just just right for the collapse of human civilization,

you you're calmly, appreciating like that. That's just dead. This is absurd. Dislike visit a moment can end in this is it. This is the love how we both of death in demise yeah, soundtracks. It's just a question when you're an academic doesn't come up, often fright. That idea. There are some academics that are bold and brave. It's it's not a phenotype, but be old and brave in the physical world is not a common phenotype of academics. Meaning Eight neurologists, one of my I dont- have any heroes, but oliver sacks as a true hero. I mean people think of them ass, a writer, but he was for. the a neurologist, and he took tremendous push from the neurology community for doing his books and his articles.

Great biography called on the move. There's a wonderful documentary that just came out about him. He died in two thousand and fifteen, I'm actually a kind of a collector of his things, and but he had tremendous, but he was accused of horrible things. Until the movie awakenings came out deniro and robin williams is the movie by the way people don't get? They seemed to not say great things about the movie. I love them most im amazed. And it was only once he became famous from that movie- that his act more academic work started to receive any kind of attention and he was invited back to colombia and why you you're the new nor sides. Mafias are real thing and yes love. You know who you are, and some of them are actually coming on the gas that they do. They are united. I think we'll talk tough line about this. We should start a mafia, but the bat, it off. What is going on in these got alarm still remain

yes, I don't know how that works well and is different in new york. Yet so I've tremendous respect for science done in new york to hear me round that they are excellent scientists. Is it just a very different culture than on them ghost and the personalities, in our man, disrespect for the mob ended, the personalities are, are a bit more grand however, because some of the shift in science culture in the last few years things around. I'm scandals and things that sort they ve been forced attempt down some of their personnel. Though early sir outspoken personality and actually think it's revealed something really important and useful in science which, as you know it used to the case he could really inject your personality into what you do. You know richard finds a good example if he did what

day what he did then bongo drumming on the roof. Caltech make id working out theorems in strict clubs and things that he would have lost his job in a moment, right so that kind of behavior isn't celebrated any more. It's actually punished and I'm only half kidding about this new york neuroscience mafia, but because I now exist in multiple realms. I can say these sorts of things, and I asked jen admiration and respect, but I will say that I think it's important that p in science: are there and kids that are curious about size, understand that you can have any personality, provided that you're, ethical and respectful in science and do well right there. True bent scientists that just want to be at the bench, their villages we'll be in their office, their people that really enjoy public speaking and there people that love meetings, their people, that hate crowds, and so there is a place for every but truly a place for everybody in science.

I would like to be able to shine light on the fact that there are, you can have. shy personality in outgoing personality, and you can all of those can be have excellent careers in size, but you have to in the community in place. That's right for you. One reason I like Stanford is that Stanford is Much about the future. We have no about eyes, winners. We have field's medal winners and all that stuff and there, aims are on walls and we acknowledge their great works, but most of what you hear about in the halls of stanford is about what's happening now and what could happen next? It's really about the future were when I ve spent time at other institutions not to be named. You here, but there's a lot of kind of recycle, and regurgitation of how wonderful people are based on things they did previously and the students at stand but because of silicon valley, sure they have respect for nobel prizes, their delighted to be learning from surrounded by all these great minds, but there silly interested in what they are going to create and

so I kind of not cut If I really like the shift towards possibility, as opposed to things that are steeped in tradition, You know I've never been to hide table dinner. Oxford, I'm sure it's a wonderful experience, also not sure what purpose it serves for the world, but been, and so I don't want the conversations are, and so maybe I'm you know speaking out of line here and now I am definitely not getting it right, now you're you're doesn't getting life beyond I'm with you did the cultures pick pick the right one for you, that's all, like mit, this the spirit of it to me it's not about the past or future is about tinkering and having fun building cool stuff like the big ambitious projects. Is there I mean maybe more nation, the biology and the house hillside, but the engineering side it doesn't matter. This has an impact led his bill the coolest thing. The war has ever been at work where there

whenever I'm in kendall square I've seen the bit they have those buildings there that actually tilt toward the ground. These are. These are the architecture of mit is also really impressive. Gotta say he pulled up a Sergey just pulled up: llamas tweet, I'm a spy by curiosity. That is what drives me. So let us expand the scope and scale of consciousness so that we may aspire to unleash the universe. Does does like three tweets and one, but curiosity I grassy for its own sake. What's that saying, I think dorothy parker said the cure for boredom his curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity and eat celebrates. Let me just briefly mention to my lovely friends at mit to celebrate differing weirdness to celebrate the weird characters. I've arm, I sometimes get loving pressure

My lovely friends at mit to tone down the weirdness a bit really even from mit. I'm very fortunate to have a lot of leverage to I have completely resist the pressure, but I very sure that there's young faculty that that subtle pressure would dissolve them into a puddle of tears. Not they from Boston, excuse from boston writer, their tougher than is right, but is a slight nudging towards conformity that I think the ugly destroys or least lessens the the, of the kind of size the could do when you encourage diversity, diversity in all its forms: including the weirdness of ideas, the out of the box thinkers, including the

flamboyant behavior online. Ah, how you choose to educate how you choose to inspire? You know people talk about freedom of speech, but it's not just like freedom of speech to say controversial things. It's also freedom of speech to be weird like if you're For some reason fascinated in ah, like you'll have a yamato. He talks about sex a lot, but the guy put sex memes up. Who cares? Maybe I mean I feel like elon- can do basically whatever he wants, but there's no pressure, There's a bunch of eu laws in the academic world is a you. Ah, no actually say that meet backtrack. The man deserves props, but he's unparalleled. He's he's a sea of major companies. You better believe there's pressure to behave. Like a ceo, as opposed to a giggling schoolboy, whose posting means throughout the night, but that is him and that,

freedom that were freedom, looks like I talked. A lot the seals and allow of them through like caged birds, who have long ago forgotten how to sing quite honestly, like they that there's the shareholders and they come up with excuses for them, this is why I have to be this way yet understand. So, on theirs p or there's marketing, people there's lawyers as all that kind of stuff, but the final result is the authenticity suffocated. The beautiful we weirdness of a ceo of a leader of a career, of assigned is all that. That's all that's all gone, was to you as you ve jobs. Winter kept his job in act in the way he did in his twenties and thirty's in today's climate, but he probably would have updated his sir, his problem

Hamas. So it is not a mere, but maybe you'll gas believing it employs over these are these are anecdotes right. I call them annick data, because people treat them is but they're they're, really just anecdotes, we don't know, I wasn't there, but you know I like the idea of authenticity without over sharing right, you're, very authentic, but There are aspects to your life that I'm aware of that your audiences will now Beware of in their aspects, your life that I'll I'll never be aware of, and so you're still authentic. But here which will which ones, but you were lucky. I will get a wonder like what it what does he think only of her sex dungeon? What is this now pretty interesting, but interesting choice of examples? No, but I think that you know people lose lose the careers on the basis of the movement of their thumbs. Right I mean they. Chair of psychiatry. Colombia recently lost his position, based on it responds to a tweet.

People can look. That up is one of the most famous psychiatry departments in the world and he put something out there. There was very insensitive at frankly and one that I talked about. It was like gosh that was very, very intensive, not thoughtful at all. In and he lost jobs right or lease had to step down. I don't know the specifics, so you know I carry someplace, that more than half of the job loss due to line behaviors, because people were trying to be funny right. I mean not everyone, can pull off with TIM Dylan owned by the way. Congratulations, I heard that you intend dangers. I married. No. No. We didn't just get married a proposed scout got it got. It got an a so yes right, so some people can get a what oh yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Serge has that has that right only thirteen point three thousand like one of those is my business Four people were not aware one of the days in April tweeted that TIM dillon,

me to get married, and I said yes, I thanked him ah said The wedding will be on the street and asked him bring all your weapons, which of course, is the totally inappropriate. This is it. Our basic pointed out, I was like p e g funny and he goes re an hour. Funny right away. But that said I mean, if there's any one, I would. To get married with this. Is that guy? You could do it and asked an avenue. Would it would you be you'll, be like the the wedding for member rain one for missus allow. Mr Mr apologize, while any broke any book broke tradition with the with the jacket, color So it sounds to me that you are a free speech. Absolutist, I think freedom, for really important, and that includes letting people whore hateful

People who are controversial have a voice on platforms, but it becomes I'm not sure what exactly to think, because I also treasure the quiet voices in the back of the room, and sometimes the assholes

silence those voices meet, meaning by being loud and obnoxious and so on. It pushes away the thoughtful people, so I'm also a fan of creating communities like he should be able to. Let people come to build a community, that's positive, thus loving or that's constantly trolling or that's a super hate for all. Those communities should have a place in the world, but like the thing, I've noticed is that hate can destroy a community full of hate can destroy a community full of love easier than a community. Full of love can overtake one with hate, as you have to kind of. I dunno exactly how, but

great digital mechanisms that discourage the collision of these communities, they should all have a platform and ability to speak at a to large audience. But I just you have to be careful to protect that like little flame of awe of connection that people have that good, a the goodness, it sounds like I mean it, the yeah, I think you you know in any great city like new york, which I love by the way? Do you want to have a symphony in an opera house, and you want some punk rock shows happening on the lower east side? He you you want! All of that. You just don't necessarily want them to overlap in terms of social media, you know, and then podcasting engagement, one thing that decided very early on is was to encourage comments and feedback but I have in my mind what I call classroom rules. You ve taught me diversity and then

he's in the university, and there, sir, you establish a certain etiquette within the classroom of the kinds of questions that you'll tolerate right, so there's always the student. That's going to ask a question which is basically a ten minute monologue about their experience. That really isn't a question that pertains to a lot of people so used. You politely discourage that kind of question and you encourage the kinds of questions that are likely to be in the minds of many other students is just more efficient that way or not politely, which is more than you know. I try and respond to comments and I try and respond, but also you know, there's this also, this really interest question now you, if you block people or restrict people, people think that you're somehow afraid of the information that their posting, but that's often not the case, I'm not habit of blocking your restricting too many people occasion we ve had to do it only because of how other people are being treated in the comments section, what I can taken, what I think other people deserve to take her to two completely different things: david galleons re, who we both know well out of you still does this, but a few years ago he paused to something like if people ask em when use

He would just block them guess it was inconsistent with what he was trying to say. Of course he sleeps, but it's the he's trying to get a particular messages people- should just understand that everybody's pages their own to moderate right, just like it classroom their certain rules, of course of institution, but then you establish the etiquette within the context of the kind of class you no class about personality psychology. Where the psychology of love, you can have a very different range of of conversations, then a class on your memory. Physiology. So I think Social media is a great place for conversation, but it's not necessarily great place for every kind of conversation. Yet I also say that people do give blood I never, this is somewhere do were deliberately blocked or ignored. I never think poorly of them actually explicitly think if

If there's somebody that's like saying hateful things by me, whatever I always think positive thoughts, it's not some kind of weird guru thing, but just actually found that as a hack, I think well of them, and that allows me to never Some picked up movement that, like I, send my love and like. I think this is a like fast, any human being with a saying story. I would love to have time to actually learn about their stoiber didn. Of time the world- and I just think well of them in and move on and enjoy delicious meal with people that are close to me. I love and sausages, and move and never adding to the negativity of like just even in the I see my mind thinking a hateful thought. Tourism is serve, no purpose whatsoever. I love that about you, and I know that what you just said to be true. One of them, I think more toxic things in life is: what's called it. You know a vacuum

projection when people feel something and they trying to train it and projected onto something else. Projection is fascinating, right essentially just said, is that you don't accept projections in in fact you transmute them to put in the language of the buddhist. You know you trance. Into positivity, and in that way you unit you truly neutralize it and transmit it. I think that if people were better understood when they were experiencing are observing evocative projection. The world would be a much healthier and happier place but it requires a certain age, stable, internal rudder, and you know why we're tired or safer and cleaner way we were hungry, excessively hungry, All of us are less and less good at it. Positively struck by the nature of most of the interactions, not just feedback, but my favorite thing.

As an educator in the classroom, but also in social media. My absolute favorite thing is when the comments to about other people's comments are positively reinforcing. You see people having conversations within the immense yeah, and you realize this is like. If you as an educator again, you know you it's fun to teach and it's fun to talk to the students, but the real pleasures and walking by a small group of students on campus and hearing them talking about the material data they're just fills. With joy edna because of what it means is that the idea? as a reverberating in their nervous systems and will eventually wick out to others. So it's not just about feedback. It's about a venue for for parsing information, so you actually posted that we're going to talk on instagram in a debt collector bunch of the questions which reminds me of I have too many my jones and at question. He asked, but also a gift

for quite a while ago, if it's ok but first kirkpatrick, yes, will look, the grand page of make jones knife until we should check it out. He gave me a gift from him that the pact as a butcher knife yours is the earth died. That does some if way russia kipling. Yet the story of this knife is kind of interesting. Perhaps the people where it was that I was coming out here to austin to meet with lax and it was his birthday. I want to get him a gift buy in order to get him I contacted this guy might jones that I learned about through Joe rogan, because the first remembering old days of Joe rogan when you go on the episode afterwards, you take a picture with an object, says like

IRAN, with a flame thrower people have the axe. I picked up this bush whacker hatchet thing and I was like I love this thing and, and Joe said, oh yeah, you should check out my jones's work. He does these beautiful knives and so Then I heard your episode shown you recited a poem at the end, it was right after your grandmother died and there's a line in that palm from from. If that make engraved on that night for you, so he makes these by by hand I'll. I loved her or does the old days before the podcast and first appearance does die away on. There is a lot of one in the old in the old studio, los angeles and yeah might makes these beautiful knives, and I have this in I just how great admiration for crass people. Sir, do you use it you, but your ear one meal mistakes? I feel be taken it with you on it

exactly I actually used to keep it on the table, but I thought it is really intimately his guests I'll bit, but like put it on their side, yeah right as the groups, it is trust right. What's the story, I mean yeah as that. But it's because it's not it's it's a quite bad ass. If I may say so, the craftsmanship is obvious, but also it is in life like dexter like qualities to a year later. I guess designed to to cleave through a whim Like a family or something what people there's nothing about this place, this softens you're kind of sense that this might person. My not murder me, let's put it differently. This place could use a woman stashed away. If it's ok,

because it is, it is a poem I I go go to often. Actually, you mentioned reciting some lyrics and I'm gonna go back to that at some point to get get a few songs that touch you. But this is one of the the things I I go to often I I I'll read it to remind myself it's an advice from from our father son and it's a kind of montreux that it's just nice to live by some kill me just uses opportunity, one more time read if by rudyard kipling, if you can keep your head when, all about your losing theirs and blame me on you. If you can trust yourself, when all men doubt you, but allows for their doubting too. If you can wait, not beaten, by waiting are being law. about don't deal in. Lies are being hated, don't give way to hating and yet don't look too good. Nor talk too wise

if you can dream and not make dreams your master, if you can think and not make thought your aim if you can meet with triumph in disaster and treat those two impostors just the same, if you can bear to hear the truth, you spoken twisted by name to make a trap for fools a watch, the things you gave your life to broken and We didn't build them up with worn out tools if you can make one heap of all your winnings and risk it all on one turn of pitch and toss and lose and start again at your beginnings and never breathe a word about your loss. If you can force your heart to nerve and sinew to serve your turn long after they're gone and so hold on, when there's nothing in you except the will which says to them hold on, if you can talk with crowds and keep you

virtue like this one and walk with kings, no lose the common touch. If neither foes nor loving France can hurt you all men count with you, but none too much. If you can, Fill the unforgiving minute was sixty seconds worth of distant from yours. Is the earth and everything that's in it and which is more you'll, be a man, my son egg, Andrew thank you thank you might, the knife is at an end engraved in it. Yet If your yours is the earth and everything that's in it, we toiled over what to engrave and then. Finally, I just said might just pick something that speaks to you: you're the craftsman, and so he selected that there are certain ways to pull yourself, that

she called Azra will guide desert. He wrote the book projections. One of my favorite first saw just as you said, incredible writer just there is it just I mean if you wrote fiction if you wrote those casting. I am curious to see where he goes with his writing very interesting. I think that book took him. Ten years you're right, which is vindication for me and for you, because we're both supposed to write books and we haven't done It- the I mean you know in some sense, your first book will have you know decades. Isn't it right, even if you just take half a year to write it, it's like the first book, like the first album for a musician. I mean it's a light. It's a journey, it's a it's a it's ever, but he uses a poems and quotes in there really well

Well, it's a beautiful book. It's a dreamy book. I think when people hear of that, it's a book about neuroscience. They think they're going to get a textbook or a protocols book or something it's nothing like that, but it really is a deep dive into the mind of the psychiatrist and the researcher and so much feeling and compassion. I love that you love her we I mean, I didn't know that until I saw you on rogan read if arm and I'm not aid a. Very rabid, consumer poetry, but I am a big wendell, berry fan and- and I try and read a poem once every few days also. I think it is a tough act to follow yeah yeah, oh yeah, I mean that that's the rich, send I mean, are you said every third line, and there is something that you would do you know you your life, well lived. If you, if you said that right,

about the preparation for the solo pike ass, he said you listen to sing songs. You know you sing a recital, a certain songs once that color come to mind their interesting. Yeah. I've always been very lyrics driven- and I dont understand music of talked rick about this, and I have talked but the silver. I don't really understand what I mean. I can hear music and light. It, but I don't really understand that the structure of it but lyrics make a lot of others in touch your soul, musical The lyrics is the lyrics: it's not the instrumental, so I'm a huge jos drummer fan and I'm gonna lose punk points in this, but I'm not a cloud julian, oh obviously is best known for the clash most clash. Song start off great and then, after about thirty seconds in elites. In my mind, kind of disintegrate into a bunch of mush, whereas Joe or in the mescal arose, which is what he did as an adult.

You know later, and some of the solar kashshi rick produce some work that he did with johnny cash. You know it rick, pull johnny cash out of some she out of retirement and adam dues Alban's before he he died and dumb, so anything that strong did theirs. It there's a favorite song of mine. By stronger it's called burning lights. You can find it There is an album now where you can find it or tennessee rain, or some of these things that he did, which are a little bit more folky, so not really punk. So I love that song and bunch of songs by rancid that I love bit reno if I listened instrumental, I do I'll, listen to classical piano, Some dreams are made for children, like a sound good. As a poem they can play, this fuel can play the size yeah, so it now all I mean cause it has to be son. Jos voice is what makes the song just voices. What makes a sound but yeah, that's on burning lights from I

hired a contract killer. One of the links are pretty good, never get it. Having chosen amazing writer right, I'm also big bob dylan fan glenn gould for classical piano. He was. Had the Asperger's you knowing- and I think you can hear him grunting. He had a tourette's like tick and I learned about language for thrum oliver sacks I'll, listen to any number of things. It depends on my mood if I'm feeling a little more tired and I need to be amped up alison- is on these little louder and faster. If I, feeling gonna keep up and I need to bring the cadence down a little bit then I'll listen, something a little mellower popular. I I love, Hence I come here. I am a big fan of this british pop ankle. James there's, like twenty bans, named James but this one. You know and again I lose pump points for saying that, but their amazing investing you are familiar enough boys. We can afford to be up until a few years, but in any case yeah music

in poetry. Are there that there the there the subconscious right? if you think about a bob, dylan song or a really good strummer song or a poem that the the words don't in anything when red linearly, but they make you feel something there tapping into the subconscious. That's really what there that they're pulling on neural threads of emotion, based neither timber or cadence or something that's independent of the word structure, and that to me is the beauty of music and poetry. I often say: johnny cash is version, hurt that s, it'll be my favorite song. Ever we did a nine inch nails song. He did he caught a wreck produce that he pretty sure he asked that produced that and he didn't, like the rick produced the he pulled, johnny cash out from dark place to produce something that are you in your bag? Is one of the great things

ever music, which should these girls haunting covers of certain songs originals johnny cash ngos drummer do a version of redemption song together that is that rick produced, which is loop in my house. Sometimes you know four hours and hours. That's on his fascinating obama song some by johnny cash ngos, drummer united. Sometimes I think what be a fly on the wall when these guys were doing the songs of freedom, There are certain songs or your like its illicit an emotion that Unlike anything else, I mean try to figure that out with rick to like the certain and me I want to pull out over the side of the road and just weep or just get inspired to just get shit done.

The kinds of things I remember your family but ve lost. All it can to stop me hurt myself today see if I still feel certain songs that I've loved so I that I actually won't play them during relationship until the relationship passes a certain duration, because you, if you start sharing in those experiences with somebody in the rear and it starts to become thus here with the relationship braiding it in with the dopamine over of love and that relationship ends. The song is forever tainted there. Certainly is that I will never play in the company of anybody else. They're mine that I just I just some it's too risky to to give those up. I love- and I you know be, and I think that and there's like levels, their their levels right, exactly. I will leave it at that yeah and the interesting thing about this kind of prepare

for the solo episode just interacting with rick, about that process of preparation in. Could you mentioned with interviews by the wayside, you saw ursula you're, the only one in the room or out of it well used to be robbed. My producer, who I should say you note He's really the person behind the the ass I mean we're foresaw were equal pay where's, your just that already face where just dumb and I'm aging and not the nazi regime I should really eighty and I like it. I like aging, it's weird a lot of you like get friends or davidson clarence, all about not agent. I am I dont want to live, pass. Ninety ninety five I'm just trying to get as much done as I can in the short life and do it right and with integrity and heart and accuracy. You know and- and you like the stages. Oh yeah. If you read Eric

stages of development. You realize that every stage of life is it is. It is a set of neural circuits trying to resolve a problem. And and if you're, going to try and avoid that that progression sure You might live longer, but you know it's like saying like do you wanna go when the high school jujitsu champions now you graduate high school long time ago right, so I actually look forward to the future. Even if it means that I'm starting to shift. I think that My biology will shift you your fight, that I tried to good care myself, but I dont get sick. I dont want to suffer, who does but I'm imbracing this whole developmental arc. I mean we don't have it we're not children and then adult our entire life is one long developmental arc, and if you fail to embrace that, you failed to extract the richness of of when it has to be a human being, so it in any event for the

I record rob is in the room, it I'll sometimes stop and ask him for feedback, and I feel like please not landing rights. We give the if its clear, who let me know if it's not clear to, let me know, excuse me and then you know Castelo used to be in the room early days of the pot gas which were that Longo, he snoring at my feet and fur, feeding and smelling up the room and we're all just kind of like gasping for areas, a bulldog, that's what they do with him gone it it changed. You know that the whole thing shades we'll be another dog soon, and, as you know, I have been moving through that grief, process having him. There gave me a levity that I mean but in my mind he still there he's still still there. So an in time: they'll be another dog and and you know, maybe they'll be a dog and a couple infants running around, but that that would be more distracting so, but it

There's no podcast exists just because of the pond castor. This is true for Jos, true through your progress for me that there's it's not just a staff of people, the post stuff, that's just the top level onto her there's the constant feedback and adoration of what you wanted to become an trying to hold on to something that is essential. Along the way because everything has to evolve, but you can't lose the the essence of something anytime outcome: your brand aura. A coarser at scientist has done that it just ends up terrible did just as you know, becomes like a senator version of itself so to rake very though the power of the people in the room is great too, and to inspire and destroy, seems to be extremely careful.

With the selection of people that are in the room to me. I never really thought of it. That way, I I I thought the only the only positive things can happen or by adding people in by adding coupon. Oh, I think if there were in an audience in the room for what you know at some day, I'd love to do a live. Podcast. And you were just- I saw you doing like a a couple of live things which is great, that you're paving the way there to four. We did try new things. I went up to university of british columbia and the and did a a lecture on out. A college gap is one of the more gratifying things that happens. This got this kid says early twentysomethings stood up and said. You know I've never been on a college campuses. I didn't think I could go under a college canvas I still rings in my mind, whoever you are out there. That meant so much to me cause I was like yes, there is something about that to me. I was like okay, this he made sense to come all the way up here and do this in person, because you can get out to a lot more people online public

events, it's not like it's that lucrative or anything I unless you're, whatever europe famous, celebrity or politician, or on the sure there, their people that do well with it. But that's not words about for us. It is really about being able to connect with people in a different value. And four interactions like that. I don't know how many of the more we will do, but I'm curious to see how it goes. I'd love to do our asked with you. Is it as in my fear, is the fear of the introvert. Is that I don't know if I can handle so much love in the fast aim: bull all around it's I don't know. Maybe I will invite a few haters to one yes, the but I love eighty stupid at all. It makes me nervous de gea. A Jordan peterson is currently on tour. I got a chance to hang out with him. Alright, he goes he he does do a lot of live speaking yeah he does

his onto away does like every other day and when he doesn't always markets at home anymore. So now So you should do it before he hasn't exhausting and he I was working from an athlete perspective like what, if mick jagger with Stanley it just physically. I mean you have to speak potential for two hours, then off stage like hanging out with people the why it's a lot of ours is a lot hours. They focused it took to forgive finding your place of my car nurse and exciting for anything in hotels, your circadian rhythms disrupted. You knock getting your like than sana in your work out every day or food is an optimal. I think done. Patches. I could enjoy it because it's fun me people from different places, I'm doing a public lecture, in copenhagen for the lumber foundation in June june third, and that one is particularly gratifying, for me, because the london foundation is an economic foundation, so the fact it

and then so when they invited. I asked you know: do you want me to talk about what my lab does it? You wanted me to talk about the stuff on the podcast they're like no? No, not your laugh. We want to hear about this like health, stuff and the stuff that we cover on the I guess so that was amusing to me and tells me You know that is our changing. I think a twenty twenty and twenty twenty one revealed a lot of things about people to ourselves, but one thing that it made clear is that there is an enormous appetite for tools for mental and physical health. Also understanding about science and how science has done so, thanks to you again and nothing, there's two flattery. It's true gratitude. There is now a runway for scientists to talk to people, and you had the irish forget this guy's name, the virus guy from cologne It's in your reckon, yellow amazing right I mean forgetting the com mercy around all the stuff of twenty twenty one. I mean he isn't encyclopedia

of all things: viral logic that people should listen to his pack ass. This weakens our allergies, us an incredible lecture. An educator saw his fascinating fazenda when people take again that leap, putting all their education online that non controversial or a half bacchus. It's like everybody. There people should go, listen to him for the most part in terms of at his best. At least politics in it there's this does not in our use of irish jockey. He likes playing around with bacterium viruses, and but that said we all live our biology, we all say stuff carelessly all the time, so he gets in a bit of trouble in some of the things he said about like dismissing lab leak theory like there's no way dismisses a year, but not he's not making thick folks.

There's a difference when you say stuff like off the cuff and when you say stuff, that's a courtier principles and you thought about it for a very long time Are you talking for our for hundreds of hours and you can just say stuff: he gets to see your opinions, though, will smith slap as wondering calculate how long we recorded. I was wondering how long you can take us. We were so in georgia. Ukraine, no no, will scenario. I was wondering whether or not we make it in. I had it planned I was literally in the back of my eyes, and I had it plan at the end, if we didn't talk about the wheel smith, chris rocketing, that I was gonna say it's amazing. This is the first in relation to happen in time. What would they wasn't mansion on that? dont care not at all, and I don't need area would need to syria and their reveal some interesting things about human rights.

Impulse control and lack thereof, but you know it suddenly guinness chris rock as material for the rest of his career. He I think he is. He's not short on material that I do love the fight. If I knew what I wanted to tweet, if I knew you're allowed to just slough community, as my conversation with tim dillon would have gone very differently people just being humans. I there's so much fascinating human nature on display there, and it's also in terms of it coming at becoming a topic that a lot of people are talking about versus the war in ukraine. Examples also fascinating two eyes like just these. Can a new cycles moving through and I think If I may start interrupt, but you know any We observe something very limb back very emotional. You know we generally can empathize somewhat We all know it's like to feel angry all know it's like to feel shame. We all know what's like to feel shocked

Of war are, for most people very hard to relate to we see it, it's you know these there, these images and their very traumatic and and challenging to at times and yet most we will have no idea what it feels like to be shot out or what it feels like to have your home destroyed or what it feels like to be an aggressor. In that way, so it's very. Can get people naturally orient towards things that feel familiar to them, even though the circumstances are different, and we have also forget they look at these celebrities. Is that just like looking at criticism or will smith, you forget that they are human too? That's that's one of the most surprising things for me. Having done this podcast and met celebrities and stuff like that, they're, human they're, all human and that's I mean to me like some of these great folks that have won nobel prizes and build some cool things that are just human, like the rest of us will and if you look at actors

actresses them in their some amazing ones right and who also dwell on the outside life, but their careers were built on the business of pretending to be other people there and that's got to distort maybe positively, but also just let's be asked. What is that the neuro plasticity The changes in the areas of the brain that represent personality have to be quite different for somebody who pretends to be lots of different personalities and gets aid for your working, the reward system into the system of of identity and you You have to imagine that that can really contort somebody's neurology in ways that maybe they are not as Maybe they are not in touch with reality in the same way that we are where we are german, neurotic versus psychotic. You know it maybe more borderline in their kind of ground state, then than we Think, and so I'm actually impressed anytime there's a celebrity who doesn't have a messed up life.

Am I a while you know. Finally, somebody who's managed to you know: maintainer sums. Once, at least from the outside of of normalcy servers liken empathize with the actions will psmith that right they're, not I think they're kurdish, not kind of there's a shitty. You should probably top italy man to man, not because otherwise it's like a dramatic display its it's almost like you are a fake act, you're, acting whether all these questions right, I mean obviously it was aggressive at some level, There is the question of whether or not it was impulsive. I think most people feel yes, there's question. There was the protect. The nature of it because he was doing it too. You know in it apparently too in defence, but then there is also the the context the he lost touch with the context right, whereas Chris rock basically gets there. There's the possible critic,

that he went too far, that's going to be in the eye of the beholder and but then then, depending on how you view comedy and jokes, but then there's also the fact that he took that slap and then just snapped right back so much so that well thought. Maybe it was faked. He also waited with his hands behind his back. That says not sure he likes to stand like that. I mean I do the I. I got to a little bit of a story here to connect and to what will Chris rock did like I I wish were Chris rock did Joseph just taken his lab and keep going first of all, just props for somebody that is able to maintain well in that situation. For the most part, the heck, I think I'd like watched at once. You only have to be alive on this planet and two Aren't you going to see if you can avoid seeing I wish at that afterwards he would serve say something loving and kind to us smith and his wife

in him. Real hard line to the joke in, but there thinking hockey. They call taking a number of a friend who plays hawking. There's this idea that, like don't checks you really badly in one game. You don't go in check them again. You don't get into a fight, but three game Later three, you, like you, blade them in the shin yeah you. So what the the ability to defer? to handle it in whatever fashion one feels as if they are probably also friends and all those kinds of things that they respect each other. So he probably didn't, but there's a comedian instinct that I saw this as an open mic in here in texas. I won't say where many open mics are a few of these. The was not so there. There is more sort of bomb rough, we're a yeah. You been hanging only in like west texas, yeah exactly often too tight

if relax, though he's like of west texas, exactly as I put on a cowboy hat and instantly became a cobweb and talking like a cowboy- and I mean I- I belong out there in the desert- gone from eating meat- but a green sir rattlesnakes, your routers limiter, exactly right now open makers at night and I was one of the. Only people in the audience is a couple of drunk folks, a few drunk folks. One of them was a couple and out like bikers they come with. It will help us is sought again a girl and then the comedian other MIKE median did a joke about people who were helmets

I dunno. If those on purpose or not, but he did the joke and then the guy about women who wear helmets and the guy is this exact same situation. The guy stood up walked up to him. There is no slap is so interesting because this happened before the war smith. He said he he walked up to the a to the comedian and aunts and said he like ah heap. He I think he like pointed his finger down and told them to stop or something like that and then sat down. This is an audience of like six people who I am in awe at midnight around then there's. No, nobody, no security, nothing in texas in texas, which implies other than this guy, was the energy drunk, but also a biker and

has were he felt. His lady was now attacked by the comedian right with his words and this and the comedian was a kind of out of shape. Small guy. This was not threatening at all and probably in trouble in the comedian. After he sat down, he looked at what was scared, he paced back and forth, and then he did the joke again. While and I was sitting and I started- I I leaned back- and I I just did this like, because that is comedy and the guy was and getting angrier and angrier, and he just sat there in and The comedian went on for couple more minutes, and then another bad joke, but another joke about. I was just like he lean into it. If you go to a small comedy club open like or other was here in the

bidding gallery like your basically there teed up as a pin to get it. We went and saw andrew shawls and in san francisco in san francisco. Here was hilarious. It is amazing. I mean he's he's just masterful in his leah command the audience you know and a, but I felt for the people up front, You know no sympathy either, because you know you buy tickets to sit up run it at a shoal. Show you know you're gonna get it back. He was very loving. Funny Foresaw is funny. The funding is really helps you, but The the ethic of the comedian is that fearlessness, What I really like this, it is like that. The danger that risk to comedy and has also caused expenses have you watch it show? There was the marvelous mesa show thriller get. Ah my worship, fewer them guilty pleasure there. She plays a comic in the bathroom. Men, nineteen succeeds in in new york and

and there's a character that somewhere resembles lenny Bruce. This are meant to be any bruce and they're, always arrested in this industry. They had learned about it from Joe anyway. It's the writings, grates very funny, comedies designed to push boundaries right into debt and say the thing that you know the people feel they can't see. Not something in science right science, useless etiquette is a big part of how you communicate ideas. It's about constraining. Communication, this is something I mean I confess on the passage in the goals of making it clear, injured, it surprising and actionable. You know you have to constrain the mt in the style of information, otherwise it becomes something else altogether right: sunder pichai, Google's ceo said that he likes The thing you mentioned,

at the yoga nidra, but the and and and and sdr not sleep, depressed or podcasts over meditation. I don't know if you saw that there. I saw that yeah Why would we think that it would bring the differences? Yes, so nicely depressed and ass, the yard- an acronym that I coined, because it encompasses a lot of practices that are not meditation per se, but that bring brain and body into a state of relaxed in focus. So hypnosis is one variant of honesty. Are there are other variants of honesty? Are you can slip these up and you ll find them, and I think that they ve caught on and that the google, the ceo of Google, is an avid practitioner, venice. Cr, because it has this amazing ability to reset your energy levels and focus, whereas with meditation many people find meditation hard and partners. They find it hard is that it requires focus sdr as a state which is very

Calm and relaxing you don't have to work too hard, you're just listening to a script, whereas most forms of meditation, not all but most forms of meditation, involve cranking up the activity in your prefrontal cortex and trying to see your thoughts as opposed to thinking your thoughts or and focus on your breath. But then third person ing yourself in some respect at work, and so many people who meditate quite intensely feel more exhausted down there doesn't mean that meditation does, have any utility but its distinctly different and are, and I think that people are working, certainly c o google aftermath is working very hard and using his forebrain. If he's gonna have twenty or thirty minutes to take a break, he should and I think this is what he's doing he should go out for a and not listen to anything and just gonna. Let his mind wandering I sit there in a chair and just zone out or do an sdr. The problem is people are not that good at shift.

In the states. We are all actually pretty good at big, even people with severe eighty hd written episode about this can become hyper focused on things that they actually enjoy because dope and most of the drugs designed to treat a d h d r. Drugs that increase the levels of doping. So when you like something, there's dope em you release and you can focus its when you dont, like something that's hard to focus. Shifting states is hard, I'm sure you ve experienced as if you ve ever been in deep research or podcasting podcasting and then I'll send you go for run you pay when the first third of that run thinking and then in the middle, thirty or kind of that thinking, as is fractured a bit and then in the final third, is where you finally get to relax because the brain doesn't shift states very quickly. We can go from sleep to wakefulness quickly. We can go from wakefulness to sleep quickly, but we don't shift between different states of consciousness like a step function, except in rare

cases right fear is one of a sudden. We hear an explosion right now, it's a step function wherein fear or worry and alertness right and as to heightened state of alertness. But an sdr is terrific at allowing people to learn shift their state and I actually would venture to argue that. part of the value of meditation and exercises the actual state that you get into. Indeed, meditation or exercise, but just as valuable is the transition that you have to take yourself through from state of mind to the other and then back again I, when I look your David goggins, he always seems to come up, but he does. He represents so many important thing. Dr determination, override of emotional state, going from being a three hundred pound plus person to a fit through he's, never revealed anything submit.

It's all about what he ate or what he didn't. He is basically says, like listen, run, a lot eat less, but what's remarkable is so much of what he says is about those transitions about taking oneself from a state of. I don't want we to sacrifice oneself like you're gonna, do it anyway and then being the carry that into into regular life, so to speak. So I think that and ass the hours immensely powerful it zero cost and one of them. On such a fan of people doing it is that most people don't stick to meditation practice. There are also been a few cases. You might find this interesting there's a book by scott carney. I forget what it's called. I think it's called the transcendence trap or something I am going to have that title wrong, but there has been a fair number cases of people that go and do very extensive, meditation, silent, read it meditation retreats who then return to normal life and end up killing themselves. There, or- state of mind inside of extended meditations or silent meditation. That are very beneficial.

And I am certainly not today and people dont meditate. But I know least one person who came back from one of these long- extend meditation retreat and was unable to shift their state back into one that was functional and regular life and that booking It's a very dramatic story out. I want to give it away and his people check out the book, but Scott told the story to me directly once where some some one feels they reached enlightenment and then, suicide, so these very unusual brain states are are potentially hazardous. If people can return from them as it is now, vox, not on those brains states, but instead on the shifting right, do this morning. I woke up a little bit earlier. They would have liked. I use this reverie up. That's research backed tv or I dot com is theirs

the free version of it and or you can try it for free. So I felt as far as hypnosis for hypnosis and I do a self hypnosis to put me back into sleep, and if I can't sleep just put me into a state of deep relaxation, I would I would put the hypnosis under the category. Nasty. Are you can either under the category of honesty? Are there now some? de scripts online. If you just go to youtube better, you can just listen to and you like those I do yeah. I think the one from made four is quite good. I have an affiliation with them, but it's free, so I feel comfortable mentioning it. I do I I really like the reverie app and I can and as the more you do them, the more quickly can shift your brain into a state of deep relaxation. I will sometimes stop mid podcast if, if its sometimes are recordings, go, seventy two, and I'll stop and I'll do a one minute: hypnosis they have one minute hypnosis inside reverie, you're only going to get only going to find that one minute hypnosis is effective. If you are routinely doing ten and fifteen minute hypnosis in addition to that meaning I do it every other day or so ten or fifteen. So there's

as there a youtube, a one hypnosis sources for there are by it inside of reverie as well. You can find them online arise they got up. So yes, a rare. He's good and then Michael silly ass, ye a out you why he some long hypnosis groups, but again these are all free and yield there, lotta good research now on the neural networks and shifts year so called default network, the default mode network is shifts. How much of your or brain you're. Using it also very, very good. If I get so many questions about hey, I'm really upset. I found out about my girlfriend's sexual past or hey, I'm so upset. I found out that my boyfriend was cheating her, oh so and so died. How do I get over these emotions? How do I deal with them and hypnosis has shown to be very, useful for people to learn to bring themselves into a state of deep relaxation literally pretty act in their minds? I, these very intense things they don't like and then for people to associate

other emotions in their body, to learn to be calm, wolf, feeling your feelings to dissociate the mind body communication it to some extent it is observed the feelings, observe them and start to associate them with positive, Frances you're an android guy sassoon. It should be available on android and then it doesn't exist. Yeah. I know I know I dont get. Droid is the device of the people. All you will lead us people with your iphone. It tell me this about android. Now and now you want- and this is the one the gets me cause I'm very close to someone uses an android from. I feel like that to you. You have great people in your life. Getting to know. Their message is always look green to me, but I answer yours not despite that, but they I feel like the android phones are very trigger. Happy, like anything. I touch does something, whereas the apple phone is gonna built for like a crack monkey to be able to rate, which is great for me, because I'm more of a cat monkey in europe more sophisticated ape, oh

I see that I think are yet to be their sensitive, yea dabble. In I mean I've got fat fingers you know yet clumsy fingers The android is is too well, maybe to soften your touch. What I would do is go into the most sort by most popular cause. There's some older ones that I really can it generally skills without so I'll? Do the this one wonder hypnosis requiring subconscious in negativity, that's an hour long, one, the sleep and anxiety, one, forty minutes, but those you listen to as you fall asleep as you fall asleep, or we're going to do this now, yeah I'll, listen to it. I have created this hypnosis recording for you to help you the mess, the voice. How often does the voice pop up and at the same time you don't watch it who reaches listened to set your anxiety, the one of the most important things to the outset of any self hypnosis experience.

Is to know and understand that people really should know that stage. Hypnosis is about hypnotists getting you to do things, you wouldn't normally do self hypnosis What we're time I hear reverie in this is about you in your brain into the state that you want and again there's a ton of nor imaging data on work on trauma. Pain relief and our labs are working on this with David spiegel lab. I I really encourage people to accept and sdr, and if this feels a little too wacky it out there, then I would just put in sdr into two been there. Some good annesley our scripts. Yes by the way are as a failure of now look. I want you to play so I dont know him and and but I will go lot of media outlets picked up on his love of industry. Are an you're mad you're running Google involves a lot of juggling lot of of is one of the great see us

because they are already allows them, everybody loves him. Have you interviewed him now, but will do their view venture so this annoying thing about me being a stick for three hours. Ceos don't seem to understand like not understand, but it is scheduling to what happens is saunders said? Yes, definitely do it, I'm a fan of podcasts as a fan of yours and and and then he goes to his exit- it says a sister like, let's find a slot and then they immediately think I or one hour is grave. Forty five minutes ninety minute by zoom. Ninety, the right one are: they know in person over them. The on that, but I think now we need more and is so hard to do. You still travel to do your podcasts No more simple come down here must have all by force. Certain situations obviously make if your imprison run or a year had immediately get out on work. Furlough that view of anklets, so that

can go wrong, likes revivify happen. Have you ever been in a prison now either the visitation or on the inside it from my hike. I can see san quentin truly where the san quentin alcatraz yo bay area view by one thing you know like there's the bay and there's alcatraz and san quentin sitting right there. Make you felt, and you know it's amazing how easy it is to overlook that they're there and forget that they're there, but when I drive by san quentin, I think about it, and I also think The people were in their who might be innocent. I've seen summit episodes on rogan and elsewhere and demand an ox talks, a lot about this right, whether or not you believe her story or not. I happen to believe her story, nationally. Based on what I know what you know, I'm sure they're people disagree with me. I think to myself what it must be like to be in a cell and no in your hearts heart, you didn't. Do it now I mean I can think of me. I can think of Many things worse, I can't think of many things worse.

That's so clearly unjust, but life is full of unjust things like this cruel things, happen all the time you lose a loved one for no good reason you lose your job, you lose your home. I have been talking to a lot of refugees now and the war in ukraine has really focused my mind to how much suffering there is in the world, and so just cruel things happen all the time and and and people kind of there's the suffering and you you kind of go on you stick to the people really cool. Do this the love all around you dramatic events. Focus your mind and, like very practical, like how do we solve the problem? How do we escape? Let salt lake survival food author focus more that boy come off quite on the western front by world,

one there's this line in every it. What it is about how wars like the smell of a skunk like a little bit is actually a little. That is slightly different, slightly delicious of it, is what it says in the in the back Ivan like the smell of like ferrets in skunks and things I had a pet fair when I was a kid and I like that, muskie sent people must be old just its repulsive so she a gene believe it or not. Some people, the gene that makes that smet the muskie sent repulsive some people love it bomb. Let me ask you: this is another jean. This is a fun one. Microwave popcorn smells neutral or disgusting to forget. There are who have a gene that leads them to the present in that the smell of my grave popcorn that you find is good. It smells like putrid. Vomit to them is a particular cheap gene brilliant and they can smell certain elements within the migrate popcorn. It's pretty its prominent

france, the this gene and do so in laboratories, where, ah, you have a lot of french people. That is often said, like you're not allowed to make microwave popcorn smells putrid disgusting. You know so a lot of its in the perception of the beholder the, but are we before I leave then str. The of focus in general- and he said it for shifting my states, there advice you have for how chief focus our task First of all, we have to distinguish between modulator and mediators and I'll do this very briefly. There things that will modulate your state of focus, but they dont directly mediate your sense of focus so, for instance, if right now fire alarm went off in this building. It would modulate our attention. We would up and leave will be very hard to do what we're doing with that thing. In the background least, at first.

So it's modulating focus, but it's not really involved in the mechanisms of focus right. In the same way being well rested when you sleep, Your autonomic nervous system that adjusts states of alertness and focus and calm works better than when you're sleep deprived. So if you're sleeping better you're gonna focused betters. I always answer this way to a question like this, because the I thing that anyone can do for their mental health, physical health and performance in athletic cognitive endeavours are creative endeavours is to make sure that you're getting enough quality sleep enough of the time for you and that's gonna differ. We could talk about what now, in terms of things that mediate focus, while getting a description of mechanisms cause we have podcasts about. That is very clear: that mental focus follows visual focus, provided that europe cited person, Much of the training- that's being done now in china to teach kids to focus better. Literally has them stare at a target blinking

so often, but really training themselves to breathe calmly and maintain a tight, visual aperture. When you read the to maintain, I visual aperture your little scrolling like a high, lighter in your minds. I write have obvious once you here so for people to have problems focusing sleep well,. Learn to dilate and contract your visual field consciously. This can be done if you practice it a little bit and then be as I said before, it is very hard to get into a state of focus like a step function immediately like snapping your fingers. What you can do is you can pick any odd but ideally an object at roughly the same distance placed at roughly the same since, to which you are going to do that. Work and. Stare out. It you're allowed to blink and, as your mind starts to drift every once in a while to understand, it's normal, but try narrow your visual aperture and bring that inter visual field so that that's the most prominent in collect portrait mode in your phone

very different and portrait mode than it would in just a standard photograph mode and then, after doing that for thirty two sixty seconds moving into the work that you're about to do and really encourage yourself to do that if you're, some, whose low vision or no vision you gonna, use your ears to do this oh readers have trouble focusing sometimes because they feel other stuff and they hear other stuff. So yet you learn to adjust that aperture consciously and then, of course, pharmacological tools just enough cash but not too much right. We talk about white noise, brown, noise, music or no music really varies, but its very clear that, by normal beats of forty hurts, can shift the brain into a heightened state of four, in cognition. So if you're going to use by normal beats, wishes should be used with headphones and their number free apps out. And sources forty hurt seems to be the frequency that best support

the brain shifting into a particular he money goes that some some so some binaural beats so you're gonna love for you want to find out and out that offers forty hurts. Having brainwave allows you to slide bar up to the particular frequency that you want, I should say that, and there are other frequencies that are interesting, but forty hertz binaural beat seems to be the one that theres the most quality research of those ithaca. It's like a beer, yeah, that's what you're saying there's a lot of mixed size on the other, why noise imbroglio, as you really should be doing this with headphones, because minorities are best accomplished by feeding to different frequencies to the two years, and then you have what's callback, this brain stem that reads out what are called into rural time differences and then extracts the the delta essentially turn.

And then in other things it can enhance focused so that you know the pharmacology around. This is pretty interesting things that tickled the dopamine pathway mosquito calling badly they work there's a riddle and you're out or all your modified ills which a prescription and there's a lot of non prescription use of those prescription. Drugs. Not which in my generation, but in people's thirty, I've and younger you know, did I get here all the time from day traders and programmers and stuff kids play video games, lotta riddle and after all, use. I think that, unless, as prescribed by a doctor for specific I just have a d h d. I don't think people should go that route frankly hits the dopamine system way too hard. Also, the number of negative effects on sexual side effects all sorts of things you just wouldn't want there are a few compounds like alpha jp, see bomb three milligrams two six hundred milligrams of alpha jp sleep with a cup of espresso? If you're well rested, you like a laser,

For ninety minutes- maybe two hours, but then it's gonna take her off and you have to just recognise that and then there's a whole world of new tropics. Now people trying to figure out their ras attempts, prasad hams and finally flaming combined with this- and you know not quite in the place where you'd like it to be there are few companies are doing. Better than others. We talk about some of these on the podcast, but I would always started behavioral tools and then consider pharmacology and, and then I suppose, the the other thing for focus. Is there these This is a little more esoteric, but we cover this in episode on workplace optimization. Where you place your screen is important. Staring down at a screen is not going to be as effective as placing an eye level were above, you when the eyes are up, literally or in your eyes, are directed forwarder up the brain stem centres for alertness are activated when your eyes are down, it's actually yours yourself, it's like being pulled underwater a little bit in the autonomic arousal sense. It's your

closing your eyes is one. It reflects the brain stem centres, our active becoming less correct for alertness. May becoming less active, but there's a really cool effect that active in this room right now, which is it really interesting studies it when people work in small compact spaces where, where who do your hat that concept and also to improve, like blinders, on a horse for obvious reasons now, based on what I said before, but also anna dick work or the kind of work where there is a correct answer that you're seeking is best supported. Why it's kind of low ceiling environments, whereas there's something called the cathedral effect which is work in an outdoor environment or a high ceiling environment, it lends itself to kind of panic and it kind of lofty ideas and more creativity, and that probably has to do with it there's a natural tendency, a reflex to expand your visual field in these high ceiling environments

Expansion of the visual field changes the way, brain works in the time domain, your engineering and by she oriented there's will understand this will and music for those that don't the best think about is when you have a narrow focus portrait mode on your phone or your very alert. You are fine slicing life in time. It's like a think of it as a high frame rate like you, shooting in slow motion when heavy, Dilate, your your view, your taking bigger time bins and that one way to just let this hopefully land home is that if you ve ever had a really exciting day or pocket interview or experience of any kind. Your system is flooded with dopamine and nor epinephrine alert. Senate motivation always excitement. It seems like a by very, very fast, and yet, when you think back to that, it seems like a lot happened. This happened in that happened nothing about waiting in the doctors office in a blue

waiting room with no interesting art on the walls? It feels like a go by very, very slow dopamine in europe and a foreigner all time low, and yet, when you think back on that experience, it's as if nothing happened, because you were, you were parsing time differently, so those are the roughly the tools in there and they nor chemicals around time perception the time domain. Others a wonder, welcome forgetting the title so wonderful. I forget the day by day I'm bored, romano from you see allay abiding is called the brain. Is a time machine that talks about expansion and contraction of the time domain and what you can do at the laboratory for work and creativity, focus and, as I say that One way to define folk, For me, it is up to the experience the feeling of focuses losing track of time, is getting to a place where you are no longer up operating in time. Will any mention being in a kind of cramming for for something will you

release a lot of adrenalin and europe. It is true you can, lot done under pressure, because of the way that your slicing time you don't, I should have more time- is that you're fine in a brain state that lends itself well to parsing information really quickly? Now, if we re up your level stress enough. It's definitely a united, less normal distribution. We get you stressed in it's hard to remember anything you're not parsing time well, but then that middle range, almost every study, show that the higher levels of autonomic arousal, meaning european effort adrenaline in your system, the more effective you are at and we are we always your stress in adrenaline. It's just bad that bad, but my colleague, ali chrome, at Stanford is done these beautiful studies where, if you just educate people on how adrenaline makes them sharper thinkers become sharper thinkers, if you educate them on the fact that stress makes your cognition worse there cognition it's worse. This is why I don't wear a sleep tracker. If you tell people they slept poorly, your recovery score sucks,

naturally perform less well the next day. The, if you tell them, you were cut recovery, scores ha and so I don't have any against those companies. But I in fact our I we use other technology, can be very useful in certain context, but you want to determine your your mindset around these things and if you tell yourself, hey deadlines, make me sharp pressure, makes me sharp. You will perform matter, stress and anxiety wool. Is that an can it be leverage for good, absolutely strengthening? Look why don't you get to a cold ice bath or hot sauna, so hot you wanna get out or you get hit square in the face with something. Overtaxed that you really didn't wanna, hear or see its adrenaline. It's just adrenaline so you're subjective, read out of that and what it means is really important and that? Well, you can, if you, if you agree with the following statement, which I do and many people do, because the data support it just Alec crumbs,

it not mine, which is she directs the mind body lab at Stanford, she's, brilliant by the way: brilliant heart, trained, yell, train, train licence, clinical psychologists, also tenure professors. Here she said a limb paean. Excuse me a division one actually in gymnastics, martial arts and her dad is a long time? Are short, trainers done work with special This is an amazing human being and very humble, very kind. Lovely woman and professor scientists she says anything that you do and experience. But especially stress is the consequence of that thing and what you believe about that thing, and so, if you who consume a lot of information about the powers of stress full states to bring out your best. You will perform better

if you consume a lot of information about the power of stress to cripple you, you will perform worse. There is absolutely no question the data are striking and this is not growth mindset. This is just him What sort of him? What do you believe about stress based on the dominant knowledge that you're consuming about? So that's why it's fund a watch David goggins. Here we go in David or jocko or or Joe or someone put where cam hands. You know put out this information about, or ryan hall who ran for Stanford in the now. Is that like into the power lifting thing and running you know, then there are others too. Of course, when you start to consume a lot of that information. It's not just inspire It actually changes your perception of what your own stressful states mean they. You can actually get better from stress if you're in the ocean of knowledge, that stress grows, you if you're in the ocean of living in the ocean of knowledge. I was like a pool.

In the summer, yet the kitty, poorly kids, all being in its presumably, at the diving. Then you get the high dive and all that if you believe that the experience of belly flopping off the high dive is going to make you a better diver Some sense. It is at least in this analogy. It will, whereas, if you that is just the most embarrassing thing ever and it's gonna cripple your ability to get out a dive in front of anybody ever again. Well, your teacher. You write about that too yeah, we talk with Carl about depression, all these kinds of things that there could be these what are calmly seen as negative journeys they could be. One refrained can be used. You know one other reside. Joy, friendship! So much is that you bring this russian thing. You know I don't really understand it deep level. How could I am russian? But but this mindset like that there's pain in life when

watch that hedgehog in the fog cartoon. I thought no wonder russians this. The most to pray. So sad is beautiful and savage. So sad, whereas out here it's like sesame street and you have my mother would not let me watch sesame street when I was a kid, she thought it was too chaotic. She's, chaotic, chaotic choosing to chaotic me is going to captain kangaroo. We were allowed and then mister rogers we were allowed. I never really liked shows I like doing things in outside in the in the yard, and he's trying to trap all the animals. I didn't want to watch sovereignty, but jog in the fog is enough to turn any kid into a thinker and a philosopher and a poet area I fell in love with this, wouldn't when you showed looking walks with its arms behind its back, The bureau known were watching little clips here to go into, and it's a hedgehog.

Is wandering about in this fog at nights and can even see oh, the dialogue is the letter innocent does a feeling of searching and then there's a there's, a horse that speaks from from a distance words of wisdom. Some people actually told me that they believe. That's god, that's supposed to represent god. I always thought it was a motherly voice voice, a voice of conformity. This wants you to return to safety, and here's the hedgehog is searching for something, in him. The unknown to the floor, the unknown and ultimately, as it is. As the cartoon roles its, he discovers a friend in a bare and yes, it discovers a lifetime passion for looking up at the sky, cars and the curiosity of exploring what is up there and I see

science is exploring the mystery. And also see that as brave to explore the mystery and all the uncertainty around you, but there the melancholy the whole sound of it, the feel of it? The look of it is it just captures. Both the melancholy and the wander of childhood, which is like there's a loneliness to it. Like nobody understands me, that's their that that children can conceal cause you're you try. Forgot, my favorite can allow a love. The elbe, the owl shows up, We want to. I love the owl. Sorry I interrupted again, there's not sequitur. It means you're interested seventy percent of the time, the other three percent you're, just an asshole who could see if you could use so I'm at all than that.

There's not secular, parsons cartoon its vote as one of the greatest cartoons of all time short sharp little films, documentary, film makers, sir, it is you know, in soviet union in in a lot of sort of of tearing regimes there's channels to communicate difficult ideas. People are you figure out those channels and and one of those charles was children's cartoons zero. Actually there very much for adults. I I that in some countries, not so much in the? U s children are treated with more respect for their intelligence. You know that and not constantly getting this drivel of of just can a moronic explosions and whistles bells in that the voices that just kind of yet chill Obviously our children and need to be brains are young and plastic and need to be treated

nurtured as such, but date but they have an intelligence, and I think that treat them like morons and and they're gonna behave like morons. You treat them as europe, lookin I assume the information and make sense of it in their own way and that's what they're going to do. They have a seriousness of looking at the world. I love people. I have that talk with children like they're adults, with this year's. If you're talking to many einstein, because here like really they're, asking some big questions and I think people sometimes speak of me in this way like how damas this child like person, but not now there's intelligence in these dumb, simple questions like it that a child asks and I always love those questions, the simplicity, but also the depth of the those those since the wise and I started watching your podcast was you did,

episode early on with ray dalia near and the first, maybe the first, but a question that you do We asked him what you just said: what is money- and his answer was fantastic. It's an is superb question and he gave a superb answer and I never would have thought ask that question when it's it's the question and it was the russian to tea things off with so simple questions that get right to the heart of the matter. And kids are often putting the same cultural. Filters and the other night Jen generally aren't concern about getting cancelled either that so they all asked the question that no one else is willing to ask and they're not concerned about the. How dumb the question sounds. I find the most fascinating questions that just really really simple, and it is a bit embarrassing to ask the simple questions of what

What is well eating your asking them for all of us, so please ask them. I think that question. What is money is crucial and I The simple questions are the most obviously the most interesting. I read. He had yet awesome. Pakistan, I make it asking questions about this guy. You parks, people should definitely human lab, with any gap. In the conversation I dont want strength, the muscle building on the cost of he's an encyclopedia here, any also works with a lot of you the fighters any works with he has a lab that includes Jim, and so he works on endurance and power lifting and also hypertrophy, training, etc. But he also does muscle biopsy. So he runs the full spectrum and of full tenure professor, and he does the stuff so he's either really unique person in this whole. Let fitness landscape. Is there a luck lot,

tease out there. There are a lot of canoes ya'll just there a lot of people study nutrition and sports training, but he I think he has the among the people out there he's, at least in the top five probably within the top three of people that really have their arms around the full extent of what possible, with with training and dumb a worse with the? U prefer in. Let me he just said very systematic where describing things, those really nice. The skill, speed, power, strength or hypertrophy, so rigor, muscle, mass rate mode endurance all causes and then the philosophical of like adaptation of haute overload stuff. All that vary is their stuff. I'll Escobar is Beth. Sign, which was surprising to me. There is their stuff. He took away from that, precision principles about how to get strong, how to build muscle mass that, like broadening and deepening

standing of that task. It definitely on I'll do these in bullet points, because if people want the logic behind them in the mechanism that can listen to that episode to really get upset, I ll start with heat hold really quickly and just say that avoid old immersion, so ice boughs and being in old water up to the neck, uncomfortably called within the four hours after up a training session that designed to evoke and adaptation either endurance, hypertrophy or strength, because the inflammation that you experience from a hardened endurance, work out or from a hard strength or a harvard hypertrophy work out, is the stimuli by what that you're going to adapt to the cold water, immersion reduces inflammation and can short circuit some of that, for four hours. You're, probably ok, but if you can do it a different day or you can do it for those sessions, that's better heat, how what can be done immediately after training and is probably beneficial because of the way that it dilates the vascular system and delivered profuse is the muscles than link

it's etc with more nutrients ashes mention that was a crucial piece of information is a little bit surprising was surprising to you absolutely cause I actually the web the question to him about cold? Was I hear that getting into an ice bath or a cold water immersion after training can reduce hyper tree? But I'm guessing it's not that big of a deal, and he said no, it is a big deal. It will short circuit your progress now for p There are only interested in performance, we're doing a lot of work out and try to recover, but not trying to grow muscle, get stronger or build endurance. Then it makes sense to do cold. Canada, skill, haldeman skill, development or you're an athlete in season. He or she acted. What's so great about Andy, as he really points out the specific ways to train. Given your specific goal, so friggin swallow stay out of ice bath after a workout or legs had always making fun of the meat heads. I love it. I put myself in the meat, had category only because I dont do a real sport. Now I work out and I run which is I witness of irish meat, had ok. So what these days I wanna get back to Julius ormond get to jujitsu,

now in terms of training. He has this beautiful three by five concept for strength, pick three extra as is compound exercises. Multi joint movements do them for doing. Redefine exercises for three too I've repetitions per set rest three to five minutes and do that three to five times per week and for details you can again looked to the upset it's times. But what's interesting about. This is three to five times a week as a lot for a muscle group squatting through five times a week for five wraps, meaning your working pretty heavy meaning close to failure, but not failure out for strength generally. What Andy taught me is that people who are training- mostly strength? Can do these low rap type regiments frequently because most of the adaptation is neural- and because you're not pushing to failure in most cases you don't get that sore and so

It's the motor neurons, getting the muscle fibres to contract more intensely or with more efficiency in other ways. That's leading to these strength gains, and this is why power can train every day or five days a week or four days a week for hypertrophy, I learned from Andy, that the repetition range can be pretty broad, you're think anywhere from six to thirty repetitions. You should do ten cents per muscle group per week. Even a bit more so high volume, high volume, but you have to go to fail you're or beyond in order to stimulate growth. Why does it work at such a great range of rapid Sean's welder apparently are three ways that you stimulate hypertrophy and may be more. One is tissue micro damage to the tissue, the other is through some sort of Engine based changes in the molecular jean programme of cells, that leader proteins emphasis that don't let her do

from damage to the other metabolic effects of like high repetition, work of supervision of the moscow with blood. We know that third category exists, because people are now doing this blood restriction, training where they cuff off a muscle and they'll use a really lightweight. I've done these before you can use a five pound weight and do so this in your you are in pain and the muscles your swelling up with it does lead hypertrophy, but in general, you not sore you're, not doing tissue damage and by the way Just tourniquet offer muscle cars. You have to use the proper coughs, because you need the blood till the flow in one direction, he can't just since should offer you you'll potentially kill yourself. If you get a claw or you do it wrong, so get their appropriate costs there out there and then for insurance. I learned something really cause I work out based I go to the gym, every other day on average, three or four days a week. I do that, but generally not today's inroads work out next. They'll do united in the cardio, for me, is always a thirty to forty five minute. Jog can his own to cardio.

Andy informed me that to build endurance while building strengthen, maintaining some muscle size even building muscle size. I would be wise to take one day a week and add to that. All out max heart rate work for ninety seconds at least so? Do ninety seconds then rest and then maybe do another. Ninety second all out sprint. I almost missed my flight going from los angeles austin? I did that all out sprint in the airport yesterday, so I shall just think it on for me, so there was a sprinting doc. He will withdraw its irritably backs assaults because I travel a generally. I I'll travel without too much stuff hello: how are you probably running late, for fine used as an opportunity to explore. What are you doing it? I was singing myself, ok and he that ninety seconds sprint does I got to that.

The security line I finally got to use, but that is before butter that for extending endurance stats for yeah it, it actually has some carry over effects on an endurance if you're doing the other stuff, and then he also said one day a week to do this workout and haven't done it yet, maybe do it tomorrow be fun, which is you run a mile? You ask yourself: how long did that take? Let's say it took eight minutes, then you walk or rest rate minutes. Then you run another mile as fast as you can, and then you rest for the equipped. Period- and you do that one two three times once per week should end hu as an all round fitness programme it make. You could collapse this into something. We say: ok, you can work out with the weights for about an hour every other day, maybe take two days off every once in a while. Maybe not you're going to do six to fifteen repetitions you're going to push to failure on some of those not all, because some of those are designed to build more if you're not going to failure and have your summer design for hypertrophy higher up and going to failure and then on

off days, you're gonna job for thirty or forty five minutes, but for two days a week europe either at the end of your jog or whatever you're gonna do some all out sprints it for ninety seconds and then resting. Peat and for another day, you're going to do these mile repeats. That's a pretty that that's a pretty large chunk of exercise movement, but if you can a thread through the middle of all that what you end up with is some decent strength, building protocols, some decent hypertrophy Cardiovascular training that establishes the so called a base, or so called base sure I can get really good at anything. You like come a marathon her this way and optimizing earth on Iraq an option as powerless, you're, not gonna, optimize hypertrophy, but for the typical person, seventy five percent of people, seventy five percent of it they want a muscle. They want some straight, they want an endurance and they want. The capacity is sprint to the to the security gate.

Without you know, leaving along in the terminal says like functional stuff like geary, I've got up the stairs easier moving about yellow conscious regularly, and I should mention that cold showers after training don't seem too short circuit v, the tree, effect to the same extent that immersion in cold water does, and that really speaks to the fact Cold showers, even though they can provide some of the adrenaline for the mental effects like. Oh, I have a lot of adrenalin my system from a cold shower and I can remain calm that there's utility to that. It's not going to have the same metabolic, a fax or other positive effects that cold water exposure has been shown to have an that's unfortunate, because most people have access to culture is not a room, access to a cold down for an ice dunk, but here in numb often you have this place. Well they don't pay me to say this, but I always like going to this place whenever I'm in town this place, korea and they've got a sauna and a cup. Is yours, and even have those salt tanks that you can flowed on this, or vice versa,

they have cold water immersion. It's pretty cool! still have nice bath really to hear. I need your russian I get in and anyone won't even at what is this was big deal his oil people pay. For this. I do not oppose the right of you as a navy yeah, it's a u. I had to go deep to get that photo of lax innovation, that in the snow, because russia. They actually did this for a long time. They thought that it would indeed does, build the immune system to expose babies to the cold I don't. I still don't know where you got that photo. I knew you were able to find exactly the right. It was as great when we didn't have a tie on, but you had all the look and seriousness that you do now so clearly nature nurture. Clearly you were born with what about sauna. He does say that it is good to do. So there three ways you can do sauna that I can use toss out as like briefings if you want to get a really big growth hormone release, forsake of mattel

Some fat loss, your training really really hard in jujitsu, and you want to recover. You dont want to sauna a too often because this study that identified this massive sixteen fold increase in growth hormone. They had people. Do this, it's crazy. They got into ok. Temperatures are eighty two hundred degrees centigrade, so that's a hundred seventy six degrees fahrenheit and twelve degrees fahrenheit for five to thirty minutes is the typical ranges that people working in these research studies for mac. Growth hormone released do saw no more than once a week but get into this for thirty minutes as hard as you can safely tolerate Wait for you, the humvee to ten cause you're it. I suspect, you'll, be on the high end of things then get out for five to ten minutes. No cold exposure get back in the sauna for thirty minutes, then they had them. Do it again out for five minutes back for thirty minutes out for five minutes back for three months they had them do two hours of sauna exposure to get that

growth, hormone release now for the reduction in likelihood of dying of cardiovascular vent, stroke or otherwise, the more often you do sooner the better. So if you look at all costs all cause, mortality or death due to cardiovascular events, and you look it son of use frequencies, same parameters. Eighty two hundred recent a great one to seven times per week. Basically, more often you get into the sauna for thirty minutes across the visa. Thirty minutes a day is better than four times a week. Four times a week is better than two times a week in two times a week is better than one, and the reductions in mortality are really impressive. Twenty seven, if you into the sign of the way I just described, not the two hours a day, but thirty minutes twice a week or three times per week you reduce the likelihood of dying of cardiovascular vent by twenty seven percent? If you do at fort or more times per week You reduce the probability of dying by fifty percent of a cardiovascular rent

and in these studies they rule out other things that people are doing ok now even asked them to live in an apartment. Are you be relationship like they evaluate other, can potentially confounding variables now for veal. It don't have access to a sauna, hot water, bath or hot tub, as can be your next best bet, and if you don't have access to that, do like the wrestlers do, which is you know on two sets of sweats in a hoodie and a and a stocking cap and wrap yourself in plastics, underneath all that in gopher run, but don't please he die of hypothermia. I mean you can dive warming up too much. Is this experience pleasant or stressed, well in a way, so is it as stressful as an ice bath was a great question. People always ask how cold to make the ice bath or the cold water of the shower. You want it to be uncomfortably cold.

Meaning you want to feel like, I really want to get out, but you can safely stay in and that's gonna very by person and experience with experience with the sauna. It's the same thing how hot to make it well, don't kill yourself Finally be smart if you're pregnant- you should be doing this anyway, but its very clear that what you need is the release of something called dine orphan. We have endorphin, which makes us feel good. It binds to these new overjoyed receptors in the body, you have dined orphan, which is the terrible feeling that you get when you're in really hot temperatures. It's also the terrible effect that alcoholics feel when they are in withdraw you feel agitating wanna get out, it's really unpleasant dine orphan binding to the so called kappa opiate receptor is that's what you're trying to trigger when you do that a number of things happen you set off he chalk proteins. They go repair, broken proteins in this folded proteins. It also makes it so that later endorphin by

its receptor more strongly. So when you have this uncomfortable experience in the heat you literally better in real life when pleasurable thence come on. When they you expect in the same way, I like to say this that when you get into a cold ice bath or cold shower the increase in happen, efron in dopamine is two to three hundred percent. Huge increases and they last many hours as is shown at because lately I've got a little bit push back on twitter that which you know an interesting place people say without just in mice, know all the studies I just referred to are all done in humans. Men and women fairly. Broad age ranges, sir, you want to be uncomfortable in the cold. You wanna be uncomfortable in the heat This is why I am not a big fan of infrared saunas cause they only go up to about a hundred and sixty hundreds of degrees it for a light and far red. Light of all kinds has mentioned,

be beneficial for wound healing, acne skin eyes there, even guys now putting on their testicles cause, can increase testosterone inspiring product. Yeah hormone release hormone release, but in terms of the, sauna. You want that strong heat stimulus and that's when you call up to the two and like and so on whenever I'm in new york and there's also one in san francisco, though the one in san francisco is, is clothing optional. Just to warn people there's a place called archimedes. Banya is very nice. If evidence that being naked is beneficial in the sun will in certain contacts it leads to childbirth. Ok. So I am not a hurried off when they arrived at the right arm, I suppose, is not required right for jobbers, but I, but in all seriousness you know in new york I'll, go to a place called spa. Eighty eight and actually a cubby bb's pictures on the wall. He goes there and it's a it there that one and it's clothing that they require clothes,

I only just say that, because it can be a little bit of a shock to people, sometimes they kind of walk in there. A bunch of naked people, though one in san Francisco. I if I go, I'm close mostly because I run into co workers or things like that. You know I I sort of wear an old fashioned in that way. I suppose, but The he liked to wear clothes around coworkers, yes yeah in general- that just to me, it just seems, like you know that just be aware, but but nonetheless, that the banya is have very hot saunas, because they're russian owned and in new york is one on the lower side, but that this piety place they have some saunas that the moment I get into those. I have a hard time catching a full breath it burns. They ve got a cold dont, that's like a shot, and then they ve got a sano. What's on esteem room, that's a little mellower. So then I say but a body as you can kind of find your place, and then they do the plaza where they take the eucalyptus leaves and he can pay someone an you. Basically, you cover your drawing, and then they beat you with the that the leaves

it was to bring the vascular through the service. I've only done at once and frankly, I found it to be. A little bit nerving. I didn't really like the experience, but I also get into a son as often as I possibly can, which, as you know, one or three times per week, and I trying to the cold exposure shower or immersion. But early in the day is a really wakes you up on my favorite I have listened to. Our wish shows a video is listening to a bunch, stop with rick Rubin and what he did a thing with TIM ferriss of the tim ferriss podcast. I don't know if you've ever heard it, but he he forced them to do. They did the podcast in a sauna, and I don't think at the time TIM Ferris. Adapted yeah. If you're not heat adopted, it can be pretty stressful and I mean obviously the whole experience is stressful as a somebody with with microphones like what what is happening by just love, that tim was vulnerable enough to kind of give

himself over to whatever the hell. This experiences- and I am just so happy the red like push that kind of idea, and just let's Let's do it. That's a very rick Rubin kind of thing to do and we must not wait like we must do this as it has to be done. A podcast that was done from a sauna continuously will be really interesting, like you could call it the pressure cooker or something all I mean like a regular pot. Yeah like it's, you have to sit with your guests in the sauna and or they have to sit in the sauna without those one of the interesting things. Is it thing because I believe there's no video of the pike s, but you could tell there is a key. There were suffering on suffering and an It was a good degradation. Hee Hee hee started overtime. Not being able to put words together correctly, which he's very eloquent, and so you could see, there's like there's a struggle he

cold pull you down from the inside. You have to. I mean there's a reason why the screening process for them make you know, sealed sealed they call it seal training, but it's really. Screening and training involves cold waters because a few in the heat too long, your dire damage tissue in called you can do it quite extensively before you dire damage tissue, but is stressful. I was here say one thing that I said: enjoy seeing these social media posts he will get into the ice bath. Now. Look really stoic like they're, really tough thumb actually that's the wimpy way to go through it. We, get into cold water. If you stay very still your develop a thermal sheath around you that you're warming yourself, the the really bold ways to get in and continue, sift your arms and legs, and it ends up feeling miserably colder and there's no sheath. Here's what you break off than they bring us that thermal layer and then

get out, you'll notice, a lot of people, huddle for they'll, they'll put or they'll grab the towel in general. That's me I'll get back I'll get into the but if you really want to stimulate the big increases in metabolism, you stand out there and you dry off with arms extended in open air, and as that water evaporates off you, it is really cold, but your body is forced to activate a number of the warming programs related to metabolism. This is the beauty work of a woman named Susanna Solberg, whose scandinavian she publish this paper last year and sell reports medicine, and so I call this the sobered principle, which is, if you're doing ice, heat for whatever reason? Doesn't it if had not heater called, but if you're using cold, specifically to stimulate an increase in metabolism end with cold. That's the sobered principle and called the f you all day and then, if you wanna, do the tough way he led the shivering. So each step now let the water evaporate here, I'm if you ever made it into a cold ocean everybody's got like holding themselves.

If you really just give you let yourself extend your limbs and move them around a bit. You break up that thermal where the that's that's. The tough waited so If you want social media getting in and they like, really tough and trying to look hard you wanna be moving yeah, be it a smiling talking. Moving around is way way. Colder are able to talk. He do give good, so you suggest the pot guests in the end the sauna about this. I propose this since I got you into the next block out of august, so the folks from the plunge, maybe could bring lecture a plunge. He certainly deserves one and we can go side by side coffin style or we can face one another we do and what we said. We should dupe each other by guess maybe next you. I love you back on and we only scratch. The surface do at least part of the next lemme guess, either I have a son ethical plunged, so we could do yet here we could do it. Sauna ethical plunge version. I wonder the recording other. Accordingly,

they did have an ngo in the sign up, I'm sure we can take out the river. So sergei wants to ask you about sex performance. Very general, I think the hardcore hitting questions that we have here and the generally or specific non critique has a certain problem he needs help with now. I generally have you: haven't done an episode on site Well, we did an episode early on on sexual development. Yes, We ve done them on optimizing testosterone, estrogen. We touched a little bit on the if libido and somewhat on sex performance, but not much. We did an episode on relationships, love and desire where we touched on libido, specifically, so just as a quick mention of something a lot of people take assess our eyes or anti depressants thicken disrupt sexual function. There are

compounds like maka route and ponga ali and things like that that, at least in a few studies in humans have been shown to offset some other the sexual side effects now in terms of sexual, sorry, they episode on social development, was about how the brow embody, become organised in certain ways what how the brain becomes organised. If you, ex chromosomes or why chromosomes or etc so early early to early development, mainly and the effects of hormones later on that template? We will be doing a I'm actually putting together a a series on sexual health. Everything from the menstrual cycle which both men and women should understand, worse, understating arousal understanding, for instance, You don't realize this, but that Orgasm is actually the consequence of activity in the sympathetic meaning. The stress arm of the autonomic nervous system.

Whereas arousal is the consequence of that the activity of the paris sympathetic, the calming aspect of the of the autumn as contrary to its intuitive it kinda works, a seesaw, a sea sobbing, there's arousal than theirs relaxation than theirs arousal, but the the but then immediately after orgasm and in males ejaculation wooden. Happening is there's a rebounding of the parasympathetic nervous system, which it leads to oftentimes people, feeling very relaxed, run or falling asleep. I'm gonna do a seer, a short series on sexual health that will be the when quizzed about sexual performance, but also some I'm working on getting egg an expert gas. You can talk about some of the normal, the changes that happen as a consequence of sexual activity, and we did an episode with the guy from you t, Austin here, David boss, Evolutionary psychologist talking about it, would give and pretty deep into some of the

the goal and unusual dynamics of of meeting relation the palm, whether not people have kids or not, and what impact it. But we're going do do episode on menopause andrew pause. What's very surprising, is I get a lot questions about sexual health from the young male audience, which tells me that well, here's what I think it reflects. I think that women, because of their menstrual cycles early on start to talk to him. Other about changes in physiology and psychology is a function of this twenty eight, a cycle that they all experience sooner or later males there is less of a rotation and usually arrives in code. People say hey. What should I take to increase my testosterone and I'll say? Maybe nothing you know. What are you specifically can? turned about and then overtime. If you pull on those threads a little bit you you know that you get your answer. Sometimes I'll just get a direct question, but I think that the psychology of all this and in terms of jealousy and the terms of

notions of of roles and relationships is very dynamic right now, and I'm fascinated by this, so we're going to do a four episode series: what about sexual fantasy? What to get freudian for a second? What role does sexual fantasy have in the human condition, there's a book called the erotic imagination, the very psychoanalytic book written by psychoanalyst that talks about how well here's the uncomforted reality. Freud was at least right about one thing, which is that the brain circuitry that you used to develop attachments to your caregivers. Mother and father or other caregivers do not disappear. When you hit puberty, they are re purposed for romantic and sexual relations And so this is why the whole notion of anxious attached and secure attached the stems from childhood attachment patterns, but it carries over the romantic relationships. So that the relationship with your mother has any other and fire.

There has a or and probably other close, people to you in your young age, has a second tertiary, some kind of ripple effect on how homosexuality develop like what fantasies you might have all without question and, of course, early experiences to and traumatic or positive or or neutral. The thing. That's really important. Remember, though, in this transfer of sir free from one role to another. Is that early, consistent psychoanalysis that gender is injured, changeable sexes, interchangeable, so for it Let's say you had a wonderful relation, let's say this height listing a hypothetical person. I am truly not referring to myself what let's take a a young woman who has a wonderful relationship to her father and a just, absolutely terrible, abusive relationships, her mother just forsake of example, She then goes into adulthood, and she is on two very abusive men, not always, but let us use in this example and the day,

It is exactly the same as the dynamic she with her mother. That's actually a common occurrence, even though, in this contact she's heterosexual, she's romantically attracted men. What seen over and over again is that the dynamic with one parent can be transferred onto a romantic dynamic, but it doesn't have to be. You know that it was with the mother than it only has to do with relationships to women. So jenny, interchangeable, because these circa trees are pre sexual There lay down in our brain before the brain has any concept of sexual interactions. It's preview vertical, scuse me and so on. There are a lot of interesting examples and data to support this and the book attached, is a pretty interesting, but by two psychologist one. I think at columbia. University that talks about how childhood dynamics carry over to adult romantic attachment is so, as you can tell, I get pretty alert in research.

The discussions, I get a lot of them really in this domain. There's a lot of impact on people in their wandering about doing to learn and no one knows what other people are doing or what's normal, we kind of no deviancy. We know perversion, we know the extremes, we know the rules Hopefully we will know the rules, but you know, let's just be there- a lot of people in in the academic community, in particular at certain east eco schools not to be named that are in open relationships. This is more common. Now it's not very common, but it's more. In the and you know obviously that's away of bypassing some of these more primitive emotions about jealousy, etc and leveraging them towards. Maybe even ongoing relationships, I'm not passing judgment, one way or the other eye we say fortune. Things have to be met for any discussion about about sex and sexuality or sexual health, age, appropriate context, a programme

Consensual and species appropriate what that does we're, because the thing I'm trying to figure out why my sexual fantasy is too good. Furry orgies and have sex what a with others dress this squirrels and me, the other animals that could be that I have to elsie a therapist about them. Cause. I'm not gonna respond to that, except to say that as long as those four conditions are met, yeah but you also proposes that our own species appropriate says a bunch of questions. I am instagram one of them on this topic, on relationships. Somebody suggested to do three of. Why lacks a single there's, a running joke about this so aware of, but I can answer in part right because they were partially because you're very busy partially, because you

cited that until it's time, you're gonna, wait until it's time as time right, I'm entails time, you're waiting and then. Not me right savings after marriage, I think, but but in some sense and yeah your your wife, your future wife is out there. Oh yeah, yeah she's, programmed? No, I need a deafening. I definitely that any. Firstly, I just love People have fallen, love very easily with people with objects with things with which would like for every moment now. You're like oliver sacks. He felt he would fall in love with minerals and concepts, and things like that and so like to make this canal. The relationship is more like a commitment to one particular kind. Do object of your love like oh my god. It's a good journey that you take on together, because also the interesting thing about humans is

moment by moment a different person day by day. Week by week, month by month, a chain revolve, there's an since two thousand stuff. I daresay you. What you are doing is your saying, while I'm going to expire, all the way that this human gets morphed unchanged in the world. What makes them cry? What makes them excited woman some lonely lake, the the habits how like when they for certain habits, would the how they feel when those habits of broken the stupid, my new things that make everyday life you're gonna be on that together figure that I'll just the way we're trying to figure cells out like optimizing, these things about diet and also on you kind of doing this vision together, because neither Really understands themselves, but all in your together both confused about it, he gets it almost gum relationship as a chance.

To understand yourself and to understand the person like to go. That process is some colors alamo iterative, enter the dynamics right amir merging two nervous systems at once. This was once described me very well by an ex girlfriend who is truly brilliant, she's, really brilliant, and she said you know, there's four arrow This is maybe to an engineer I like her so make sense. There is how you feel towards the other person is theirs, how they feel towards you, but then there's an there's, an arrow that comes back to you, which is how you feel about how they feel And then they have an arrow how they feel about how you feel right. This is why some Mrs moody or somebody else's upset. It. There's one version of ourselves where we respond to that where they respond to us, but there

another version where we respond to that. But it's also there's a processing of what it means for us that their behaving that way or feeling that way, and this again leads us back to that early attachment circuitry because of a parent. Was stressed, the child's role is not to soothe apparent that healthy models of parenting, say that children should actually know how their parents feel for, like the first eight years of their life there, but to be in that mindset of empathizing for the parent. This is often not the case, but it may be. The cut off isn't exactly eight, but you get the idea. So dynamics of a relationship are where the learning is, because we learn how we react to other people reacting. It's it's not a just a two arrow system, it's at least this four arrow thing and But there is also than the element of nurturing right. I mean, I think, that going through If with somebody is so much better than going through it alone- and I I'd never thought I'd make that statement

so it wasn't always obvious to you know. It wasn't always obvious to me and I've. I've been I've really enjoyed wonderful relationships and- and some have been hard and and there's certainly been a lot of growth, I'm on good terms, with almost all my former girlfriends and close with some enough that I'm I know their spouses and I'm close with their families and and but no it wasn't, I think that when people say relationship is hard, the only really hard part about have a good relationship is just dealing with oneself and making sure that you're staying in that mode of caretaking cause. I do believe that if one is mainly focused on taken good care of the other person provide my there also focus on taking good care of you to some extent and we're gonna. Take it care of ourselves. Everybody flourish everything gets better, but no, I I don't think I experienced that until fairly recently woody,

is the secret to successful relationship. There's just one, but at least at in the top five is Master or at least be good at Islamic self regulation know how to calm yourself down. Don't expect the like. Looking anything external to soothe yourself. Is it put you in a terrible position too, to be a caretaker of yourself in a third people right, so learn self soothe right, learn how to, calm your mind, steadier action, steadier voice there too to do that we talk about the past, but elsewhere have that in place. I also think that if, if your main focuses on, you won't have a good boundaries it, so but on tending to the relationship, doing a little bit more than you think you ought to do with ever.

When does attic. It goes great. I mean I'm sometimes so positively struck by how supported I feel and because for many years I just can doing everything on my own. So any little thing in my home, my goodness just feels huge and also, I think the dynamics after me right. Let's, let's be really honest. This is a little bit of a tricky topic, but. There is a power dynamic in relationships, sometimes not all, but in some relationships works much better of one person leads in the other person follows in other relationships. It's more mutuality works best. People need to know what they need. So knowing what you need and what you crave. Israel important then, once you do that you can create the relationship we want. In that over and over again and people are different com. But I think that Ultimately, I mean right, it's it's there's the dopamine phase of our relations,

and then there's the serotonin phase, the kind of more mutuality, cosiness and sweetness? There's a great book about how to make sure that the dopamine component the serotonin component, so to speak, go on forever and it has to do with you. Don't you meet somebody retracted doom, your essentially objectified them you meaning and not in the way people might think you are not dependent on them for emotional stability or so evil? As you get closer somebody, you really come to depend on them, and then you tend to objectify them less, and so this book, the book as at the name, is corny, but the it's written by an analyst again is called. Can love last and it's a book about how really Good strong relationships are the consequence of people constantly. Moving through this dependency objective patient dynamic and I those words in the true, but in a psychological sense, not sense, not anyway, there typically thrown around nowadays. So the idea you know in some

cultures, men and women will only touch for two weeks out of the month, then, for the other two weeks, the excitement and sensuality and all the sexuality is very heightened. And then they go back to this kind of distancing, I don't think that's feasible for most people, but if you look statistically, those relationships tend to last a very long time with at least reported mutual feelings. Intense attraction for many many many decades so, human beings need to learn how to at least understand and control these dynamics. There's a lot of divorce. There's a of cheating, there's a lot of stuff out there be great if people could resolve some of this stuff inside of the relationship, in my opinion, yeah, this kind of intense interaction. There's a actually one of the palms, the cow

that's right, introduce me to I think to english poems the name, but they are one of the things I find myself for prolonged period being attracted to like: you notice kind of magic, and you keep wanting to dig to the depths lake. Of that magic. You guys are really know that person to really no person deeply. Yet you noticed something there early on sure. I don't know what that is, but you just noticed something special and unit. Pulling it that thread and he never really do well. You also have to be careful if I get a lot of questions from her Be careful the questions you ask. Interrelationship too, you have to make sure you really want that information is not just about people's pass right. If you ask somebody how they really feel about something about you and they tell That may be soothing, it maybe intensely stressful. You have to be

here is one thing I know for sure for relationship to work. You have to be brave, You can't go in there fully protected, and yet also can't go in there with no boundaries, because you'll end up beat up. What's that quote, if you wanna be a warrior, to get hurt. If you want to be an explorer prepared to get lost in. If you want to be both, you know, and if you become a lover prepared to be both if something like that, I forget, is one of these instagram type things that you sent passing by and yeah. That's pretty true love, love, scary, because it takes us back to that primitive circuitry. It is as primitive and basic as hunger thirst the desire for heat when we're the desire for cold and were only a warm, its eight its dine orphan, I mean when somebody leaves like the when somebody you are attached to leaves by death or by decision or your forced upon. The diner orphan release is a massive. It is true discomfort, people feel anxiety and discomfort and

going through. That is a hell of a process, I, if I knew how to best break up a neurological level or if you just all the new law and reset bombing dad dad do that episode Oh, but we don't have that knowledge on the oh, why the groove covered this before and even in meme modified. I think. Losing love is part of the magic of lovely means. You ve felt something I agree, but it One point: oh, have you done it enough times? You know your life is finite. You know it is beautiful to see these couples that seem very much in love despite many years of just We haven't been together many years yeah the way they look at each other, yeah they'll say they still see the magic, yeah and they'll say: oh, we got lucky or it was it's been hard or this and that I think external conditions being a little tougher, is helpful for a couple, a hardship

I do I do because I think that you rally, you know you you and you bond with people. You know being obviously want to survive those conditions, but yeah I do, I think that if I nie and clyde so They were a little. Too much. I love to maturity, area sociopath, but the what to associate ass follows You do grace what they normally essentially normally sociopaths dont team up, because they because they manipulate each other, Sociopaths, sadly, are are usually only interested in manipulating the highly pliable unsuspecting, but and romantic attraction is woven in then it gets really diabolical. Any advice and finding the love of your life. Of my light. This is this is Why legs a single response? Why any advice yeah

this comes from a friend of mine, who is in a really excellent marriage with great kids and family and I demand life, it it's a decision like at some point you just prior to you just prioritize. It is ok. I'm going to make this happen one way or another, and you dont, for the discovery of that person, but I mean I'm occasionally said hey. I think you should meet this person or that person, it wasn't, maybe my judgment because for might have been off, but it the timing was right or something, but I think that here you it's a decision and it also has to do with light structure. I mean there were years, so I when I was in graduate school, I didn't want a girlfriend. I just wanted to be in lab and I was sure I had romantic dating interests, but I wasn't gonna meet them through a committed, Lena, live together situation. Wasn't I was that there's a postage, your things are all different, etc, etc. So, but at some point or like what do? I want my daily routine to look like ultimately a relationship

where, however, one structures is going be party are daily routine. So at that point where you You know I really love to wake up next to somebody and blinkem link together, and I'd love to. Work and then we meet for dinner, and then we, you know, take the dog for a walk or take kids out or whatever it happens, to be take a trip to do it. You have to be. One has to be in the mindset of wanting to do couple like things, people in a lobby think about it. That way, they they either fall into. Something were they. They don't see the benefits of coupling up. I think that the pandemic tuned people's awareness to the fact that some things are indeed easier on your own depends on finances, etc, etc, but. A lot of things are made better done with other people. One hundred

I said, but else so I was very deliberately it's an way. To put it that, would you want your data? Look like I think what would you want you day? Look like what you want your life to be. I was very deliberately always. First of all, I happened to be alone like a conscious thinking. I know a lot of friends were just unable to be alone. I am able to be alone, but I'm much happier with another person I am able to share joy while the humans. I look forward to the day that our kids are rolling jujitsu and my kids are, you know, came out with your kids, and if that notion sounds. Even remotely interesting than then fond. And then it's like you, gonna backpedal from now go asked. How did I get her if there is any easier and think from first principles about love,

and you you're. Thank you for being my they give me an amazing human being who saw spying to so many people for constantly As always the call at one of the things that was really refreshing about you, is that you. When I tell you idea- and I tell you, I thought I'd tell you something you didn't you do yours shouted down as a first step as saying that communist scientific need is commonly people around you, you're you're, seeing was the goal that we get excited, get excited together and that's how you can really have a great friendship and a great decree krzysztof together. So I am deeply grateful for that and used for connecting so many interesting people together, you do an amazing java and thank you for existing thing. Thank you for being thank you for talking today and son or seen the sodden here yet

Elizabeth well. I want to say several things. First of all, thank you for having me on again it's an honor and a pleasure. I don't say that, formerly I really truly mean it. I own the humor in law podcast. As I always say, only exists. You gave me the suggestion I am so grateful that you did so thank you and for doing what you do you you are brave and europe man in your just continue, do just what it as my post occupies, are used what are you doing just keep going and then, in terms of our friendship I mean, I think you know oh and, if you'd die, and if you don't mind just keep telling you, anyway, by text and in person you're an amazing friend and there's deep trust, there's immense respect, and I love you brother. I love you too man. We did it thanks for listening to this conversation with Andrew human, the sports podcast, we took our sponsors in a description and now let me leave you some words from ralph waldo emerson,

It is one of the blessings of old friends. He can afford to be stupid with them. I look forward to doing that in the many years to come of friendship and fun conversations with andrew. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.