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I note the king juniors ever dream speech, I think, is the greatest speech in american history. If I may I'd like to read a few words of It- and I ask you a question about the stream- I have a dream that one day nation rise up and leave out the true meaning of its creed. We hold these truth to be self evident that all men are created equal. I have a dream: the one day on the right hills of georgia, the sons of former slaves and the sounds of former slaveowners will be able to sit down together the table of brotherhood. I have a dream that one day, even the state of mississippi a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice. I have a dream:

That my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. I have a dream today. First of all, damn I mentioned to you offline, I immigrated to to america, and this is why I love this country. This is one of the great speeches that represents what this country's about. So what is this ideal of equality, although we should strive for as a nation this that all men are created equal? What does that mean to you this equality. well. If we put this in historical context, king is speaking in nineteen. Sixty three when it gives that speech its eggs actually one hundred years after Abraham. Consigns the emancipation proclamation declaring the enslaved people to be free,

they're, not yet citizens in eighteen, sixty three, but and of slavery is, has become the position of the federal government when lincoln issues at emancipation proclamation so putting it in content in enslaved people, four million or so africa descended enslaved people. How do they become citizens? Have it? How did they become in this status, of subjugation and domination and stigma and exclusion haven't they become citizens seems to me that that's the that's this the heart They, the quality that king is talking about, is inequality of stated

as members of the nation as free and equal citizens within the republic. Now Digg is really important to understand that slavery was not merely a legal order, but it was also a social system that had the symbolism attached to it. They had a big journey to make from their subjugated status as serves as land. Less people as uneducated unfit for citizenship really in the minds of many. So I think that's what in nineteen, sixty three One hundred years later, that king is appealing to This idea that when Thomas jefferson, indeed declaration of independence rights. These words all

men, are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights. He didn't thomas jefferson, a slave owner. Didn't have in mind when he wrote those words the people who were sways, but by The time you get two nineteen sixty three king is invoking this idea, all men was he means all persons. He doesn't only mean men. it means men and women are created equal. He wants it, idea to be embraced by the country in reference to the descendants of the african slaves. That's his dream! That's his idea! The legacy of slavery would be erased that that the position of african americans would be equalize within the political unity, which is the united states of america that that's my son.

Of it, in any case, on a very basic level, the worth of a human being, is equal. It's just literally the worth human beings. I imagine you off line that I came the soviet union and my grandfather thought in world war two and four hitler the worth of slavic person. As there were captured their different numbers, but it's in the hut, it's to one german in terms of the value of the person to the great germany, so he'd want to germany to expand and conquer a large part of the world and within that future world that third reich the worth of a russian or slavic person is

one hundred or one thousandth, of a german person of a pure german person, so that has to do with not some kind of public policy or politics or all that kind of stuff it has to do with the basic worth of a human being, and that's what doktor, king speaking too, that all people are some kind of deep level are worth the same. If you somehow weighing the value of a person were equal in that's basic fundamental worth give, I think, that's correct. I think that very well said. I don't know that he had in mind the position of slavic people in central europe in the middle of the twentieth century, the first part of the twentieth century king- I don't know that He had that in mine. He might well have done, but certainly that's the idea. So you don't think

really thinking about this particular civil rights struggle and the particular struggle against the backdrop of the history of slavery in america and can about african americans. He wasn't thinking about the basic he was speaking to the basic worthwhile if human beings, no, I don't mean to say that the speech in washington, the dream that in nineteen sixty three at that march, was within the context of the united states, and he was it- was within the context of the civil rights movement. There was a movement that was going on and he was an actor in a political drama that was american, that that had to do with the fight over equal rights, for voting, for housing, for employment, for citizenship of blacks,

america but king was informed, I think, by a much broader christian ethic, of the equality of all persons. I mean he he gets killed in nineteen sixty eight of the five years after that Speech in Washington, he spends developing his world view and The things that he had to say, for example, about the or in southeast asia. That was going on at that time made appeals to universal principles of equality. He was a pacifist to some degree. is against war. He was a socialist the degree he might not have warned that label publicly. Buddy believed in these. society where the poor would not go on tended where health care would be available to people who needed it in this kind of thing,

a humanitarian who saw The value of a life was not dependent upon the color of the skin upon the native mother tongue. That might be spoke, in upon whether male or female. All persons are created equal this. This is very much the ethic, martin luther king, on my understanding. Broadly speaking,. What are you learn about human nature? By looking at the history of slavery in america,. Oh my! So what does that tell you about people? Well, I think of two things right off the top of my head. One is about the capacity of people. were looking the other way. In the face of

on ethical, then no morally lee profoundly problematic practice, so Slavery was controversy or little controversy, all going all the way back to the funding of the united states of america, the country was that on a compromise where half of the country thought that wavery was was abhorrent and would not have headed countenanced in constitution. The other half of the country were steeped in the dependent on the labour of these african captives and their descendants. The economy depended on it, they own them ass property, that was their wealth. Their wealth was invested to some degree in the value of these human beings and water for the united states to come together as a confederation of the several colonies, there had to be a compromise made in it was made

where's slavery was allowed to persist and the people who were against it or who? it morally problematic were able to countenance the practice in the southern states where slavery flourished, in that went on for seventy five years after the founding of the country, until the crisis of the late eighteen fifties that led to the civil war and ultimately to the emancipation. So, one thing I think about human nature from the fact of slavery Is that the ability of people to live with terrible, morally question a ball practices and have that as part of their institutions. It took up a movement of a massive movement. of abolitionist struggling

against slavery for the better part of a century before before that that practice could be eradicated. But the other thing about human nature that I see is the ability of people to sustain their humanity under the most awful oppressive conditions? The slaved persons, the slaves and their children, I mean they were channel they were bought and sold like horses or cattle, and yet They were not their humanity was not destroyed by that, and they were able to sustained their dignity to sunday in such a manner that once emancipation? Finally,

they did arrived, the friedmann and women they, the persons who had been enslaved and who were set free were able to over the following decades builder, a foundation for the development of african america within the context of american society. That. eventually culminated in the civil rights movement of the middle of the twentieth century, and has led us into the present day. So you know human nature can countenance awful evil but human nature can also survive in the face of terrible evil. The that's what I take from that survival. That flame can burn, even wonder,

the world around. It tries to put it out this. There is still little flame of human consciousness, of spirit of culture Of whatever the, how that is that makes humans flourish, makes humans beautiful that lives on that Well said he. I think, if you put it very well, there's gotta be son, poetic, a way of expressing that leave it to the poets. What about the people? There look the other way, how many people do think. Just regular people knew that something is this is wrong or did do people through generations convince themselves most people most regular people convince themselves and their

nothing wrong. Alright, yeah. I asked this question because I wonder what we're looking the other way on today, also because the meat you have to kind of, if we're you have to ask yourself these difficult questions of assuming we're the same people. We were back then There were, we can be flawed in that same kind of way. We can look the other the other way, just as others have in history. Yet you spoke of the europeans. Contacts and of the nazis, and certainly a lot of people had to be looking the other way when them. Of crimes that were committed, that regime were being undertaken. I mean the railroad cars full of human beings. Taken off to be slaughtered or to be worked to death in labour camps and the began last etc.

A lot of people had to know about what was going on in look the other way or in busy, ethically supported the the persecution of the Jews and the gypsies and saw And I don't know I wasn't. I wasn't around in eighteen, forty miles, and so the matter is that, like many practices that are unjust, most people thought that's just the way. It is suddenly that's the world that they inherited they they. They were more or less stood. They were not revolutionaries, they they did to go alone, as some people might have been troubled by it. But thought this nothing that can be done. Some people might have thought. Will there these black africans they're not really like,

then you know they are lucky to be here if they were in after they'd be worse off still, some people might have thought that some people might have been disturbed but not been able to see what it is that they could do about it. They they might have thought all this is in this. Gas thicknesses is not something I wouldn't want to have anything to do with, but not knowing whether there is any product cool way of opposing it. That that's. Why. you need a movement in it for the people who were troubled by the practice to know that there are others like themselves, equally troubled him as they gathered together. Collectively they can exert their therein. So as debates about the the wrongness of slavery, as I say, go all the way back to the founding of the country,

There were abolitionists than there were people who were who oppose the compromise that led to the framing documents and institutions that created the united states of america opposed the countenances of slavery and that in that situation, but it took a while before that, could come to come to a head and produce the crisis which ultimately lead to the eradication of slavery. I would note that slavery is not unique to the united states is not unique to the western hemisphere that enslavement of people that thinking in human channel, something that one sees and on a global basis. One sees a going all the way back to

and tick witty, so we might ask: how is it that people finally came to turn their backs and eradicate the practice that that might be the thing worth really trying to understand, because the practice itself is it? they there's a wonderful book by the sociologist, orlando patterson called slavery and social death that was published in nineteen eighty two which is a comprehensive history and social analysis of the institution of slavery over twenty five hundred years, going back to the classical greek roman civilizations, finding slavery, in africa: amongst african signing slavery in the middle east: finding slavery in the far east filing slavery in south asia, the enslavement of people the practice of taking. So

when as a captive in war and then, instead of killing them what you could do making them to your property was very very widespread in human culture. So I mean I'd like to make this point. Sometimes only people are talking about how wrong slavery was- and I agree that without any question that the practice was profoundly morally problematic. But I like to make two points that given how wrong it was thinking How impressive was the The judgment of the eradication of slavery, that that was something there were six hundred thousand dead in the war between the states. Eighteen, sixty one to eighteen, sixty five and a country, thirty million people- that's that's a lot of dead people Who gave their lives not to erratic

slavery and in every instance, probably most of them were just fighting for of your own. They enlisted a word conscripted into the forces fought in, they died, but the net effect of their having fought in died was too push along a process that led to the eradication of slavery. That's an amazing achievement. The slaves themselves were largely an educated You know backward, and there have, of course, what else could they have they? They were kept in captivity. They were prevented from developing their human potential and yet, after the end of slavery, That population, that for me, in plus africa, descended people came? The foundation for what a century later leads to? Martin Luther standing in the world and more and giving that great speech

and now. Here we are a hundred and fifty years down, the road and Barack obama is president of the united states now he did not descend from slaves. I think we must not lose track of that, but he identity as an african american and was a part of the population that consisted largely of people who descended from slaves. and we are, we african americans are for all practical purposes, fully equal citizens of this great republic, that has happened within a century and a half- and I know that you can find any parallel to that kind of transformation in the status of people from here, channel to full citizens of their. Public anywhere in human history? It's certainly worth celebrating the

achievement of the eradication of slavery. I would say, and probably started with a few people there he inside their mine, dared to repel. Here. It's interesting to think about how it all started, how in the state of injustice, the The revolution percolates, like words, starts. He said people that see. Something is wrong, find each other. You it's in the ideas of cares, individuals that not only know that something is wrong, but are able to tell others about it. And be convincing and then gather, gather and rise up. It's interesting to make this kind of incredible progress. From slavery to where we are today to live out, the idea of this all men are created, created equal

the power of individual cause. I I I don't know what you think about it, but I tend to think that a few small individuals probable, we originated this, they think is the power the individual, because sometimes we think there's injustice in the world. What can I possibly do? I tend to think one person can be the seed of starting to fix the injustice. Sure one person here, one person there yeah and one thinks, of course, of frederick douglass those massively significant figure who was born in slavery and who I stole his freedom and because he was property and he he decided he was not going to be property any more and he he took it onto himself to emancipate him

personally and who became an educated, a powerfully, articulate influential person in the united states and in england going around at present himself as an embodiment of human dignity in commitment to ideals of equality- and you know I mean he's just one person, but there were others just one person all it takes is just one point so here we are on this topic of equality in the twenty first century. So what is the equality mean today? If you start to think about this idea of equality of all come or the injustice

of inequality, at which point as equality of all come is just at which point is an unjust, serve looking at our world today and looking at in it quality. How do we know that some inequality is a sign of injustice and some is the way of life So what is equality mean when we look at the world today different from doktor king speech of the basic humanity? I dont think kings speech

I have a dream that one day my four little children will be judged not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character requires equality of outcome. He says his children will be judged by the content of their character. That's a conditional statement, that is, the judgment, will depend upon the content of their character, not the color of their skin, but it doesn't follow from that that the outcomes, whatever outcomes we considered wealth and economic power possessed within the society representation in the various professions, deep various, issues of social achievements? Doesnt foul from judging by the content of? turn that color of skin that one

look at the end of the day at the social outcomes that they will be equal across the different groups. In fact, I think, is a contradiction in the idea that groups will be equal in although various social outcomes that they will be equally successful in business, that they will be proportionately represented in the various professions that they will have. Same educational achievement that the occupational profiles will look the same if there are in fact distinct groups with their own cultural traditions practices with their own ideals and norms, various immigrant populations, coming to the united states of america from all corners of the world, the descendants of the african slaves black.

I consider today, who are ourselves various with different origins and so on the different religious. This is and commitments that jewish sure more man nor christian or whatever However, we so love the population into the various groups. These groups are themselves different from one another. They have different norms within their own cultural practice. How would we expect if, in fact, we recognise that the groups are different from one another, that in a world that is fair, they would all come out they represented in every undertaking there not equally represented, and that fact I am arguing is in and of itself insufficient to justify the conclusion that there are not somehow being fairly treated

Your treatment doesn't imply equal outcomes in a world in which the populations in question are themselves different with respect to their culture, their practices, their neurons, their traditions, their beliefs, their ideals and so on. The fact of those different norms, traditions, beliefs cultural orientations, and ideals will have consequences in terms of their different social outcomes. So I just think it's a mistake that people are making when they think fairness of treatment implies

quality of outcomes it does not? Is the process by which we were speaking now in the midst of the of the national basketball associations play off, I confess to being a buster celtics fair. I mean I'm just it's a very good team and I'm excited about myself tax we defeated the glenn nets. Tammy we defeated Kevin durrant incur, the irving and company K play off series. We with them and we're on our way to you know the eastern the conference finals and we're on our way to the n b, a finals and I'm you know if I were a betting man. I'd put down of a few bucks that the buses six underrated, as we are, have a very good chance of winning, and be finals. Okay, so that's the

it s a national basketball association and the sports fan, I like best lightly biased prediction by yes, again- is somewhat bias. All I'm saying is. If you take a look at who the star players are in the national basketball association you're going to find that there's some eastern europeans, Death, some really good basketball players coming out of eastern europe and more power to tour and there are a lot of african americans will represent. It didn't many jews as far as I know, no offense intended their legs, but I mean,

The mba is not equally representative of all of the different populations in the united states. Now we could go into the reasons why, but I'm just saying the process by which you get to be playing in the n b. A is fair. If you can play you can get on the court that they're all they're looking for is people who can play, I think, well. That is true in many different venues. I expect, if you're a really good technical engineer, companies are gonna, employ you and if you can make money they're going to advance you and you will be able to rise to the top of that profession. I I expect that the people who are engaged in financial transactions who are actually making bets on the market. By and large are the people who were good at that activity and

you're good at that activity in this world. In this modern world, you're gonna rise to rise to the top. I'm not saying that there are no barriers of discrimination course. Of course, there are of many different sort But I'm saying that to expect that there would be ok let's look at whose actually writing called, let's look at whose actually trading bonds that let let's look at whose whose actual starting businesses, and so I want to say that if the in a fair world? I would expect that if blacks of ten percent of the population Maybe ten percent of every one of those things is to ignore the reality that the differences in the culture and practices and norms of the various popular in greece will lead to differences in their rapid, notation amongst people who were outstanding perform reason. one or another activity.

How do you know if the difference in culture accounts for the difference in outcomes or it's the existence barriers, especially barriers early on in life. Have this combination their racially based. So if you think about affirmative action is in which ways is affirmative action, empowering in which ways that limiting for these early development of the of different groups- but let's just speak to african americans. We should say that you want to some no name northwestern university at first, but then you ended up with a great university of a ah so so That'S- that's you're, not early, but middle development. So speaking of the development, the opportunities equal, of opportunity. How do we know we got that equality right, yeah,

you put it like that. We were talking about results. Now we talk. But our opportunity- I was taking a position that when king says I have a dream visions, a world where is children will not be barred from the good things in life, the color of their skin, we're talking about opportunity not about results, but our paternity is not just something that depends upon what the lawyers public policies? Our opportunity also depends upon the the soul conditions in which people are are raise the social and economic conditions? So the child of a poor, family that has no resources. It does have the same opportunity as a child of a wealthy family to real as their full human potential. You asked me

Can we tell whether or not a difference in outcomes is a reflection of unequal opportunity or its area. Election of differences in culture and interest in and practice- and I dont know that- there's a single answer to that question, but I think one wants to look at the data. One wants to try to measure. You know it the social scientists. I would say you what you want to do as you want to estimate the of the significance of various factors for determining the outcome. If the outcome is how much money does person make when they work in the labour market. So you look at their wages and you think well, depends upon a number of things that depends upon how educated they are welcome skills. They have what kind of works once they have and so on

Those things are all legitimate factors that may determine from a say in the making in the labour market, but I also want to perhaps controlling for them they see whether in that, the fact that they are blocked gore. They are latino or whatever fact. They are male or that they are female. The fact that they do or do not speak just their native language. This kind of thing, whether those facts There's also are implicated determining how that's what they are in the labour market, and if you find that after you have controlled for that things that are legitimately determining success and failure in the labour market like skills and education and experience having controlled for those things. The fact that a person is lacquer is a woman or is an ever greater. Serve loud,

Letty no background also affects earnings, then you might conclude that, to that extent there getting equal opportunities, labour that kind of idea, but I want to focus on a little bit more here. on what we mean by opportunity, because it's not just weather employers treat the worker on a fair and even basis. They regard of the workers, racial or ethnic background, that's one opportunity issue, but that's up at the end of the development. since they are now presenting themselves to the market trying to find work and employed at this or that wage, that's the the line? What about the developmental opportunity the opportunity to acquire skills in the first place. That goes all the way. that goes all the way back to birth. It even goes back to before birth,

the mother carry the infant in the womb. She has certain nutritional practices, as she might be small, king or drinking alcohol, or something like that. I'm not saying she is, and I think she is another thing whether she is so. She is, in effect the. Development of the fetus. The new born now the question of environment? It there's a question the development of their neuro. you call a potential love. Do they learn how to read? Do they stimulate it verbally How many words have they heard spoken? Are they being nurture? in a home environment so as to maximize the possibility of achieving their human potential. What about the peer group influences? What about Values and norms of the surrounding human community,

in which they are embedded. Do they encourage the young person to apply themselves? in a systematic way to their studies and to their focus on there acquisition of language command and of their educational potential, so developed. it is not only something that is controlled by the societies. Practices is also something that is influenced by the the cultural background of the individual, those things are not equal. Those things very across groups and in a very significant way, and that too, will be a factor determining disparities of out. So when I see outcomes that are different, I see well holding that's different. I see educational achievement, that's different

I see representation in the professional schools in law school in medical school. That's different between groups. One question is: are the institutions tree- in people fairly, but another question is: do that background in social and cultural influence is equipped all in the same way, and we know that the answer and not in every instance? Do they equip people in the same way? And so it makes the judgment. The moral judgement that we make when we see inequality of outcome, complicated and inequality of outcome, is a system They make factor to some degree, but it is also a cultural factor to some degree I want to say now- that's controversial. I know a lot of people think of themselves as being progressive. They they want but point a finger at society whenever they see a disparity, but I think that that some mistaken

get misunderstands? The the difficulty of the problem- you, you think that if you get the right, If you have the right, public policy is the right pilot genes are elected to office. Suddenly those disparities will go away and I'm here to tell you that that that sir, are false, hope and a more where it is probably the wrong goal, but Emily go into that. You are talking about here, of actual witches is something altogether and you were talking about me and my education, which is also something that's a little bit different? I'm happy to talk about those things northwestern university by the way was a great university, I'm just joking one of the great universities are the world, yes and I'd, say mathematics said northwestern university, which is how I ended up at mit in the first place, and I got a very good technical training in math

when I was at northwestern saw you love both mathematics and human nature, and so, which is why you and adopts Going into economics at the great economic programmes in the world that mit and getting and getting appealing as one of the many has he. Where is that of an economist which allows you to think systematically and rigorously about the way the world in what way humans work at scale trying to remove the full mushy mess of humans. Like a psychology perspective, economics allows you to do. Well. Economics is one of the social sciences. I think there's value in psychology sociology, there's a lot to know that doesn't come up then the study of economics we study, mark, edson in all the dynamics of economic development in our trade and saw butter,

yeah, I'm speaking personally as I was coming along as fast aided by mathematics. I was good at it and ended up in north western and took a lot of courses therein, functional analysis and logical mathematics and dynamical says domes and stuff that I ended up employing in my graduate studies and economics, but you're right. I was not satisfied simply be proving theorems. I wanted to be addressing issues of social significance, economics, I discovered, to my delight I was a fool to study that allowed me both to develop rigorous analytical frameworks, modeling, excision of logical deduction in an inference,

on the one hand, so Fine, my mathematical interests but, on the other hand, could address questions of social significance like why does racial inequality persist. Why some countries prosper. Growing and others less. So why do Prices of raw materials fluctuate in the way that they do over time and so on and so forth, and I ended up falling in love with the application. Of mathematical analysis to the study of social issues? Would use beautiful about mathematics, about mathematical, puzzles about logic or other kinds of things? yeah, it's still there, the love from outer still there for you. So is there something you could speak to? What is the the colonel The flame of that love. I'd like magic.

I mean you know being able to prove something, and I mean you know I think of off hand. In this law? There's no largest prime number. Ok,. How did I think about you know that? Ok, what's a prime number, so prime numbers in number that has a whole number that has no devised They then one there are no a device so the number that makes it a prime number like thirteen, where ninety or thirty seven, whenever ok, so their prime numbers, there's? No largest prime number? There infinite number prime numbers dismal largest prime number: okay, that's an idea you get your mind around it in an instant it. It doesn't take a whole lot, to see the question. There's no largest prime number, if prime numbers show up and economics mean that they know shit the economic except cryptography understand? Yes, forty important for cold dub, yellow in in

coding, stuff, and that shows up in economic terms and models. Here, probably not that's that's surprise. where's our little. You're? You know in abstract, algebra its like they shop in all these places there, just like beautiful Medical puzzles, the dawn immediately, have an application, but somehow may be cheap collins, you and, as a result, push mathematics forward like for MAS last theorem. You know, as far as I know, no obvious real world application, but he has challenged mathematicians throughout the centuries, a d and and somehow, in indirectly progress the field, but the rational numbers are accountable. They gave vacant put in one the one relationship with the energy and you know, that the real numbers in that council and theirs

at more real, not quote, unquote, more real numbers? These are orders of infinity. This is a cantor, georg cantor, and all that kind of that kind of stuff or girdles of fear I studied this as an undergraduate. You know the incompleteness there are met. There are problematic within any logical system. That's rich enough to accommodate, accommodate arithmetic, they're going to be proposition said you can formulate that are true, but that you cannot prove to be true so I did that you could systematically developer illogical framework. mathematical inquiry that could demonstrate the truth or falsity of any proposition is not a feasible gold, was he'll project, as I understand it in a girdle showed that there was no hope, of being able to study the lark

straight, the closure of of of logical systems that we're rich enough to accommodate them. Numbers. I gave an existential crisis to all mathematicians and scientists alike and humans because maybe you can't prove everything I read where, when I was there. I was a junior college community college student for transfer to northwestern, and I took a calculus course and it was a lot of fun and it was french eating algebraic, exe since in integrating and using chicken a metric substitution, and it was a lot of simple problem solving I get to northwestern. I take a course in differential equation: and again it was a lot of formulaic in applying. If you get a differential equation of destruction like of its linear, you, gotta, exponentials, etc, You can solve it, and then I took a course that showed you know where the question was not how to solve any particular.

Functional expression. Buddy was proving the existence of a solution to a differential equation where it was like ex that, because f of ex ante and f is just some arbitrary function. What do I have to assume about the function? F in order to know that there exists a solution to the differential equation, the d t, because f of ex ante and its basically, they called it a lipsitz condition. It's a condition about the bounding of those. The slope of the function as a function of exile. It doesn't that you can soda uniformly bound the slope on that function Then you can use a iterative process too. Show that the secrets of you know partial solutions to the thing. Convergence is something that's a solution to real anyway, again. I'm not not. Gonna bore you're pretend that I'm

mathematician, I'm not, but what I am saying is the difference between a specific algae. Great formula that you can manipulate and solve on the one hand and the abstract question whether there exists a solution in the general case is like a huge was like a step for me, in my study of mathematics and the techniques that you have to employ to address. These larger questions in and so on site it. When I was an undergraduate, I took the first year phd sequence in math analysis at northwestern from a brilliant man petition him abner Friedman, and learn about measure theory and in london some that some early national analysis, ideas and when I saw that those ideas-

we're being applied by advanced a steady and economics. I was delighted farmer, intellectual home so that one of the fascinating challenges mathematics is to think how can you guess what would which echo the challenge of economics, what are they properties of any equation that allow you to say something profound and say it simply. The question of economics is how'd. You construct the model we can. General nicely and say something profound and say it simply one of the questions one of the child, of economics is makeovers microeconomic, There is in all the world, is made up of individuals so there's a connection to this. Our discussion of of race and discrimination and outcomes and all those kinds of things the world is made up of individuals, but

did you say something general will have to construct groups In order to analyze the data were, have aggregated data, somehow make an arrow over some sort of people. So what are the pros and cons of looking at things like equality of opportunity and equality of all come based on groups verses individuals. And what are the groups, if there's any prose to looking at groups that we should be looking at those those a big questions I mean in economics, you're right micro. You have heard an account how individuals make decisions about spending their money on this consumption, so about how it make decisions about what to produce how much of it, what inputs to use, what techniques of production and so on individual firms,

visual consumers and then he went to aggregate so there's a theory of so called theory of general equity graham, where you know you think supply and demand and a bunch of markets. You think prices that move to cooperate, but recognized that the price in one market affects people's behaviour in another. The markets interact with each other. You realize the behaviour one individual affects the supplies and available resources and for other individuals, so they needed together and some kind of system By way and you you wanna, try to demonstrate the fact that, notwithstanding all these entered dependencies, there exists a solution to the system of equations that equates demand and supply across all the different markets. This is the existence of general equilibrium, then you wanted. Try to say something about the properties of an equilibrium if it exists, is a five.

What? What do you mean by efficiency? Well, the idea of so called parade, O efficient outcome, caesar outcomes cannot be uniformly improved upon. Everybody can't be made better off by an alternative outcome. You want to demonstrate the efficiency of competitive equilibrium. What do you mean by competition, you mean that people take their actions to do the best. One so that they can profits of firms well being of consumers. They try to do the best for themselves that they can do, but they do so in reference to a set of prices that they believe they cannot control. That's the criterion of competitive market circumstance so does that compare the vehicle abraham exist. There exists a set of prices which, if everybody recognise them as given and response to those prices. on behalf of their own interests. The outcome will be so

I equally demand in all the markets where people are interacting with one another, and that requires the use of some concepts in topology, fixed point, their arms and what not that are familiar to mathematics, not very deep mathematical results. Imported to economic, that's all about general equilibrium and what then, but you ask about groups by the way, amazing. Well, when somebody a fall of economics, but yes, god thou Great there, where markets of competition of operator efficiency anyway, but yes, and prices are rising. And by the way there, some very beautiful you know Formalization asians of everything that I'm saying here. You know you end up invective spaces. Eu. You end up with sets of bundles of consent. And in production you end up with convexity, you end up with hyper plains, which

You know in in the sub finite dimensional vector space, which are you know, all of them, but those that have the same value at a surprise. For you end up with inner products and an inner is yes, it is very pretty yet, but you must forget that is just a bunch of humans transacting with each other that did that that markets I made up of individuals. Markets are made up of individuals and in order to carry out this formulation, you have to make assumptions about the individuals and the end result is true in a formal sense. But may not be true as a representation of the reality, because it depends upon assumptions at them, cells may not hold, but at least you know what it is that has to be true in order for your formal framework to be relevant, which is already a step in the right direction. Think I mean the form

Safety is better than the intuition there aren't you into China, where we sit back, and we don't really know exactly what we're talking. Because we have an killed it down in it and precise way, I am in favour of the formalization people. They think what is mad examine the social sciences. After all, we're dealing with people people are not automata. I agree with that, but The analysis of the interaction of people, I think to be rigorous, requires us to be specific about what we talked about: markets about consumers, about friends, about profits, about technology, about preferences and that's the language of economics. But people's behaviour depends upon what they seek in life with pet depends upon their goals and their objectives. Those things are at play

They can be pushed this way, or that so I mean I, you know: nationalism fighting and dying for your country and religion are sacrificing on behalf of the abstract ideal of the good or of you know what is human situation and what is the meaning of life? Economists, have to assume that these things are some particular thing before they can turn the cat on their machine to analyze the outcomes of human interaction. and yet these things belief. My identity, but those things that I'm willing to sacrifice and die for purposes of life that I affirm and pass on to. My children are important preconditions for actually carrying out any economic analysis and they are subject, manipulation and to change over time, and that's not something that economics has a whole lot to say about what is theirs.

General things that are really powerful in terms of you said nation religion. Does it groups yeah? Can you group people nice, lay in helping you understand human nature, so group them intonations based on their citizenry, that's jogerfy rate- did did indeed geographic location. Birth are your are long term residents be religious belief or you were religion, you believe overtime. Is their groups like that and then race? Is that useful one of the pros and cons of looking at outcomes based on these kinds of groups race in particular, I think the approach- and I think the comments I mean I am myself Glenn lowry, since before right now, a black

american, an african american? I could quote- I identify, as you know, that's the way they talk about. It nowadays identify as a black amerika, my skin, his brown. My hair is course my nose. His brow relative to the way other people's noses look. My lips are thicker. That's a consequence of my ancestors to set free the human population resident in the attic Continent in milan. Past my race. Here in the united states. We have various thought, unquote, races define crudely in the way that I just tried to define myself. You could say- and I think there is a very powerful argument- that these are superficial differences. I mean really. Why should it matter that your eye color or your hair, color or

shape of the bones? In your face? The color of the town If your skin the amount of melon and how it is that you react to autonomy, radiation in terms of your skin. What is that to be the basis of anything. I mean that's arbitrary, that that's not meaningful really be meaning in these superficial differences when human beings isn't that a archaic or barbaric way of thinking about ourselves. To look each other's skin, color or hear texture and then decide all that's a black or a wider, that's a latin there. That's an asian, that's a whatever that that did that's something that we should all grow, a person might say that's a relic of a kind of tribal societies. Of a kind of pre modern

society where we built real structure on the basis of such superficial difference, a person could say that, On the other hand, I am a bit american, I mean that's part of my identity. Ads part of my heritage, its part of the stories that I tell myself about who my people are well. Why do I need people. Why do I need a narrative of dissent in which I affiliate with a racially defined. people do. I really need that. I mean, I think, that's an important question. I in fact does a confession: think of myself ass black act. I figure myself simply human. I could not identify specifically as black I could. I could say my my eyes, a brown too. So what I'm a brown? I owe you

who invented group based on my eye color, I wait hundred and eighty pounds, I'm gonna have a body size. Group imo plus two hundred- and that's quote- who I am close quote- I don't do that. I came, chicago? Yes, I do have a certain sense of affinity with my home town of chicago born person, but, frankly, haven't lived in chicago since nineteen, seventy nine, that's Long time I wear my chicago origins very very lightly. I go to war with someone from cleveland or saint louis, and fight to the death with that Saint louis. Personally, I cleveland person based upon the fact that we come from different sid, yes and you have even abandoned in your heart- the chicago bulls there such jakarta? That still in me, I suppose, but it's not it's not very deep, It is not called who I am anymore and I'm wondering are here, I'm trying to pose a question. Why is it that being

a descendant of african slave should be who I am so there's some answers. One answer: is people will look at me and deal with me differently based upon what they see. I dont have control over that I'm going to, perceived. As a member of our group, whether or not I elected affiliate myself with that group or not. Therefore, I need to be mindful of the fact that regardless of what my internal integration is the world will perceive me in a particular way and will proceed me differently. Based upon the color of my skin, saw police officer who stopped me at two o clock in the morning: because my tail light is out and ask me for my automobile registration and I reached quickly till the glove compartment to get my registration and services. Show me your hands and I dont quite hear what he said.

Or I ignore what he says as I am getting my document out. glove compartment, but the police officer thanks because I have not responded to his and to show my hands that I might be reaching for a weapon and the police officer caesar and black and fears The likelihood that I might have a weapon is higher because in that town, at that time, a lot of the people who get stop with weapons in a car happened, the be black and mail and so on. any pulses weapon in the discharge. Is it and I'm bleeding out there and I'm dead now and That is a possibility that very real and is based upon the color of my son, and therefore, when he stopped me, I keep my hands on the steering wheel and I dont go to the glove compartment and I'm fearful of the fact that he might mistake me for a criminal, etc, or I walk to a high in store clothing store? I see you nicely dress their legs, I'm not, but that's, ok,

I do have some good close at home. I just didn't worm here today. But you know what I mean in the end: the call that the salesman and clothing stored either treat me like you know an old friend then warm and welcoming. And what can I do for you, sir, and let me show you this and that and what are you looking for and what? Because he thinks, I'm going to spend a thousand dollars there that day and he gonna get a five percent. Whatever it is and in it he either does that or He ignores me and looked at me with suspicion and thinks I'm may be trying to shoplift something weird things. I'm only gonna spend five. dollars in that five hundred dollars in their form that where this time and

aware of the fact that when I go into the clothing store, especially the high in place where I can buy some by a good suitor, you know by some really good, dress, shirts or slacks that fit me well and so on. I am aware of the fact that I may not be taken seriously by the salesman based upon the fact and is looking at me. Any sees a black person and therefore I dress up before I go to go out to buy clothes to get you know cause. I want to present myself as not someone who just walked in off the street, but as one of those black people who is really we to spend some money in the store so that I can be treated with respect and I have to carry the burden. such as it is with that, I need to earn the us being taken seriously by overcoming the suppositions that people may have about me based upon the color of my skin, something like that

or I ask myself: what am I gonna teach my children? who they are and where they come from. What stories am I gonna tell them about their ancestors, who are their ancestors Every african american has european ancestors every black person in the united states of america. I think I can say that almost without exception We could go to twenty three in me and look at the dna behaviour. An answer is not purely africa. That's a fact and that's a consequence of the experience of african descended people, because it's a mixed population. My name is lowry, spelled l o? U r y but pronounced as if it were l o w e r Y, and I gather, if you trace the history of that name, that it's a scottish.

soul somewhere could identifies Scott well. I could claim some scottish dessert. But I Don'T- I don't know who those ancestors are, and frankly I dont know whom I enslaved ancestors. I can't trace my family history back very far into the nineteenth century, but so What what stories do I tell my children about who we are about who their ancestors are? I mean I wanted to my children, some story and that story is going to be colored quote unquote by my re. So, even though it is superficial- and in an ideal world. You might think why? What human beings? I read science fiction, so that this is chinese right, a chicken Blue is his name. I may not pronounce exactly right, see I exxon dell, I you

Checks in lieu he has a trilogy, the three body problem, the dark forest and deaths, and those are the three books of chicks and loose trilogy I'd, try solaris, which is another star system within a few white light years of the solar system, an earth get into a conflict. and when the tri solaris come down to dominate earth, Suddenly, all of these differences between the chinese ended in north America. And the europeans, and the africans and the south asians become canyon significant because after all, the tri errands, with their advanced civilization, whose star system is down, buying have their eyes on the solar system which has planted the third reich from the sun. That is pretty habitable and you know the difference between us become pretty insignificant sum

we shouldn't need for an invasion by extra terrestrial beings to have to then before we would recognise the common entity that we all share, that is profound and is deep. We ought to send, in effect from the same ancestral. Population of homo sapiens walked out of east Africa a year ago and have survived amongst all the different possible. You know: variations of species and what not of humanoid population the homo sapiens have flourished Others have died out.

And here we are in- and we know we can just look at the genetic endowment- said- characterize our biological essence and there we consider the we are caught. Him quote the same beneath the skin, and yet we end up framing so much weight onto these superficial differences. So I can, I can see both sides of the Guess you what I'm saying I can see the argument races in irrelevancy, because at the end of the day, deep down it is But I can also see the argument that, I hold on racial identity because a my racial presentation, colors how other people deal with me, but be because everybody needs a story. Everybody needs an account? You tell me your jewish, I mean I don't know how deep that is. I don't know how genetically profound that is. I do know that it's a culturally profound

identity for a lot of people based upon maybe of the same kind of forces around talking about a they won't? Let you not be jewish you. You could say that you wish, but when hitler rounding people up, what do you say that I have a whole lot to do with the with web. What do the gestapo is about and big Neither tell your children a story. You know that's the fascinating thing about this tribalism that you spoke about, that we form tribes, ass humans, draw human history form tribes and have directed hate towards other tribes entire violence and destruction, and yet tribalism allows you to tell a story to children. Allows you to grow a culture. There about define yourself within particular tribe yeah? That allows you to have a tradition

now. You have article D wrote called the case for black patriotism area, so I should also say it's so interesting because for me personally, I feel identifiers believe I am an american within the american umbrella, it feel but there's a longing for other tribes emission jewish. But what I honestly feel is a lot of it is humour in culture and so on is russian and ukrainian. That's that's. Why come from there has for my families from you know, there's like stared, typical things. Are funny humorist up a thing about russians. Showing no emotion, gotta check the math into wrestling cod drinking vodka?

is literally everything or stereotype, I'm in the body. Mint of that? Yes, oh there's a? U celebrate that in certain kinds of ways that tradition, there and within the american umbrella- and some of it is humor- some of it is a little quirks, of course, but now with the warren rushing ukraine. Interestingly enough, even that little thing becomes also source of negative tribalism, but anyway, add that context the side. What is black patriotism- and why do you feel I mean I'm speaking in an article called the case for black patriotism in a particular context,. And what I'm saying basically is very simple and saying we are african americans in so should be on the american.

I actually don't even much care for the framing african american, but I'm not going to fight with people about it. It it's. You know I don't think it's worth fighting about. That's not! I would just we're americans or if you want, we black americans We certainly not africa. That is the africans african population is a population of people who come into existence here in north america through the cauldron of slave There are also emigrants, immigrants from east africa, immigrants from west africa, immigrants from southern africa, immigrants from the caribbean who descent an ancestor population which is african we eat history of the world. Since fifteen hundred is history in which people of africa the set, are scattered because of slavery,

Throughout the western hemisphere- and so here we are but the Institution of slavery ended in eighteen, sixty three in the united states, the star but that we started out talking about which gave rise to martin luther king. Giving that speech that you say is the greatest speech in american history and I'm not going with you about that happened right here. The united states is we are this: what is the united it's the united states is a nation of immigrants. The population of the north american continent was firstly populated by an indigenous population which was destroyed in conquest. By a european population is settled here in north america and appropriated the land. And have built a civilization here which has been

people by the large influx of individuals from Europe than I asian italian in greek and sloppy again, jewish russian jews, coming in large numbers and so on and wave after wave after wave of immigration asian latin american population of people have come. to reside here in the united states, and we black americans descend from slaves? We advocate a mere. Ensued descend from slaves, so here we are this a great nation? I mean this is a monumentally, significant political force. Does the united states of america founded in seventy, Seventy six, seventeen eighty seven fought a war of independence from the british established of republic, which is up,

a confederation of these independent colonies, which has grown into now, the fifty states of the united states of america, continental nation, the richest. Most powerful nation on the planet, with massive in was throughout the world at for good and for ill. That's who we are. I want. say two black people. There is no other home for us that this fantasy of we being people apart, Back in the day when I was coming along in a nineteen sixties, there was something called the republic of new africa movement and what they wanted. Some states in the south given over to black people and we're gonna have our own country, and that's it that's a joke. It's a fantasy, it's it's! It's it's a mythic on

I the unrealistic fanciful politics is not a serious politics, we're America's we're not going anywhere here. The idea that- and I want to say this in a number of different registers- I want to say first of all, we need to make peace with the fact. That's who we are and that's where we are so of lobbyists coming that the world cup, it's not gonna. Litigator disputes are the it nations is not to set up a desk for people of African too said Reside in north america, we have to work god? Whatever our concerns are with our fellow americans right here within the context of american politics, that. compromise. That means looking for frame of a framework for political exe ashen, which is broader than our racial identity, etc.

I want to say that, but I also want to say this no reason apologize for this is something positive to affirm. I take on this question about slavery, I'm in in brief, in brief, because in fact slavery was awful and it was wrong and it was on the backs of the enslaved africans and it had consequences that endured That have endured long after the termination of the thing, but I also want to say look at what is happened in the last one hundred and fifty years for the americans and I want to say, look at the vitality of the institutions here in the united states of america, of the democratic republic of the united states of america. Again, not perfect, which arm which our malleable enough these institutions to allow for the true information of the status of african american such as has occurred since, and of slavery and So there is a lot to celebrate in that so

this is our country. We are full members of the poverty. Are we have burdens and responsible these, as well as privileges that are associated with our membership in this republic. That does not mean that we should not fight for what we. Leave to be right, although we are not one voice here, we black americans. That does not mean that we should not protest, thinks that we think are deserving. Protest. But I want to say it does mean that we should not reject the framework that we are operating because we basically dont have any alternative and because, when viewed in full context, a new both and profoundly signify and achievement the united states of america and a beacon to the rest of it. I don't want to go off in I'm sorry, I'm kind of jingoistic,

liberation of america is the greatest civilization, etc, etc. But this great nation is our nation, and I think we do best by beginning black americans to best by beginning this is my argument in the peace by beginning, but from a framework which accepts that fact and then builds on it. So black patriotism is. not exactly the same. Rhymes echoes american patriotism. So A black american is, first and foremost an american yeah, a black woman It is, first and foremost an american, and it's a good thing too Let me return to the question of the doktor king and another.

powerful impact for individual, Malcolm x task, the question or first people, often perhaps inaccurately portrayed them ass, representing two different ideals: approaches to the fight for civil rights so marked martin luther king the nine mile and approach the peacemaker Malcolm x, is the by any means necessary. What do you think about this distinction and, broadly speaking, in black patriotism in the future of black americans in the twenty first century. What is the role of anger. What is the role of the protests? Even violence encompasses a lot of things, but you just aggression.

And in oh fuck, the man we're going to have to make change, force change. Ok, I think you put your finger on something really important in the context of we would just discussing my black patriotism essay and it's not the It is not the only story there. There is another story in Malcolm x. What is someone you identify and his memory lives on and its powerfully influential and I think you see it in the black lives matter, and I think you see it in the protest and rioting and so forth that has broken out here ethically going all the way back to the ninety six isn't before, but especially since? the nineteenth sixties

besides in los angeles and eighty ninety, two, the random king civil disturbances that broke out there and about up fist the rather call fro centric rejection of the american story that Martin luther king. Leave any believed in a magnificent promissory note and people are rolling their eyes. You know, and you now, as you say, fuck the man magnificent promissory, no meaning get your knee off my neck people tat, that's what you can do for me. Ask me to believe in Europe bs about some magnificent promissory note, some founding fathers who were slaveowners anyway, I'm just get your me off my neck. Now I can relate to that. As I mentioned, and I grew up in chicago in the nineteen. Fifty in the nineties, studies I remember Malcolm X, I mean literally in real time,

I remember when he was murdered in nineteen sixty five. in our audubon ballroom in harlem in manhattan in new york city. I remember uncle. I I was raised in a house where my aunt and uncle were the master of the house and my mother and my sister and I lived in a small apartment upstairs in the back of this of this big house that my successful aunt and uncle owned and my uncle was a small businessman. A barber and a tradesman was it was a hustler legally has and did what he had to do- to make money with was very enterprising. Especially well educated, but a very intelligent and disciplined and resourceful provider for his family, which included myself my

Sister and my mother in their household, we call him uncle mooney because he had moon, shape, eyes, protruded and were round uncle mooney James Alice the name of community James Alice Lee was my uncle mooney buddy, I'm saying all to say this. He admired the nation of Islam. I mean king and malcolm x, Martin king Malcolm X, differed on a number of different dimensions. Malcolm x was a muslim In my luther king Jr was a christian minister, Michael mooney. Didn't have any time for these christian ministers. He thought that the white man's religion, he you and back in that day you go into a black church and you'd, see a portrait of Jesus. Any We have blonde hair and white, even even though like like a mediterranean needed a meeting,

Look like somebody came from palestine and eighty look like I came up from northern europe or something like that. The picture of Jesus in my uncle money rejected that whole thing. He would be damned if he was going to bend his knee to some white Jesus But he was not a muslim either, but he respected the muslims he brought home. Their newspaper was called Mohammed speaks. This is the nation of Islam, which is the black muslim movement founded in american citys the trade in chicago, going back to the early middle twentieth century and grew women into a very significant movement, that had a lot of influence. Louis fair kind and controversial figure. The sense from this movement. It has failed, now, and has the major part of the legacy of the black box,

once I has assimilated itself into Islam. Proper malcolm x, made her feel pilgrimage to meca medina and came back with a very differ. Vision about what it meant to be a muslim in understood himself to be a part of the large tradition and religious culture of Islam that has a global reach and he he had a different vision when he came back from that, some people say that's why he was killed and so on I don't know. I certainly find that to be plausible that eads became the constitute a threat to the state. which was the the black muslims and I had to beat, had to be dealt with. I don't know if we'll ever know the full story on that, but anyway when I'm trying to say is the black muslims, were there Malcolm x,

here and, in my experience of constituted a counterpoint to the position of king, which dependent on a kind of respect for the best of the tradition of american democracy. Appealing to the better nature of our oppressors, live up to the full meaning of our creed. I mean these are words that he would use. A magnificent promissory note is what he would think of as the declaration of independence and the legacy of abraham lincoln unfulfilled ideal and the black muslims were like fire That we are going to take care of our own what we were going to build our own schools, we're going to build our own businesses. Ah, where we're at we're not waiting for the white,

and the duty to get any of my neck and get out of my way, and let me take care of my own and my uncle respected that he respected the straight back to the stand stand straight. Would you showed us back? That's a joint petersen, but I mean that was as away before jordan petersen, but that was his philosophy. Stand up straight with just raise your children dont, be depending upon welfare. You taken welfare from the white man. You need to get busy. You need to educate yourself to clean up your act, put down the fried chicken because it's gonna kill you. He left my uncle mooney love this book that Elijah Muhammad take this. They called him. The honourable Elijah Muhammad was the founder in the law,

if the nation of Islam he had a book in audiobook said, was be smart, eat, green vegetables, don't eat fried food, I don't eat pork, that muslims don't eat pork and take responsibility for your diet and be healthy, and you know don't be putting a whole lot of pill. go to your body. You don't need to do that if you just get control your died and you you know you ve, probably in on my uncle love, this idea of responsibility for herself and. A determination to build. You know he. He respected that in the muslims, even if he didn't buy the religious part of it and so now, at an end, by the way when my uncle died in eighteen. Eighty three.

He left me a bequest. It wasn't money. Unfortunately, it was his complete collection of the recorded speeches of Malcolm x. And I have I: have these album Caesar thirty three in the a third l peace, six of them. And I have a complete collection as best as my uncle could assemble the recorded speeches of Malcolm x. Now, why did he do that? He did that because he did not want me to forget, don't be dependent upon the white man, build your own stand up straight with your shoulders back, proud black man. Take care of your business. Take care of your children, pick up the trash in front of your house get busy. This was this falafel I see so violence now. That's another story I mean Malcolm x would say you know we want to defend ourselves.

You got a macedonian. Are you racist who klux clan or whatever we gonna arm ourselves and we're gonna fight. You back you races, police were open. Sing and persecuting and abusing our people. Well, you better be ready because we're gonna fight you back, and that too was the spirit My uncle. There was a kind of attitude, a kind of posture uncles, not a radical. He was. It was a business man, but he respected. This idea take your life in your own hands when you mess with us, because we are prepared to defend ourselves that law runs in you to thread. Is you write about black patriotism? That thread is there to decide You embody both the ideal that were all american, but also that there is this oppressive history there. There is the power,

oh that's are Lady, you that our pressing you and you can just wait around for things to fix themselves who have to take action, You have to take things into your own hands and sometimes that means being angry. Sometimes that means being violent. That's there to hear there, but here in the bud is I dont me today glenn lorry in twenty twenty, to think that that is the answer. I dont think that vital, Rebellion gets us anywhere at the end of the day. I think we're past that their there aren't knight rider coup, Klux clan people. Breaking down your door and dragging you away. There are not nooses nuisance thrown over a tree.

Where you hang somebody from the tree because they whistled a a white woman or they got too much property in your community and you became you know they were uppity negroes. And what not like that? That is a thing of the past in america that the The situation is no longer the one that requires that kind of violent ray action in that their various. If we look at the net effect of the so called rebellions-

And in american cities, they're negative, the the george floyd protests, which became violent and arsonists in the aftermath of civil disturbance and whatnot in the summer of twenty twenty, I think set back the program for african americans. I don't think it advanced it, and I, I think there are things to be concerned about the schools that are not working or police that are not not respecting citizens and software, but I think that those are things that affect white americans as well and that the way to ultimately read those things is to make an alliance and associate oneself with americans were concerned to change these things and I don't think it's properly framed as a racial as racial prob

and I certainly don't think that you know- violet rebellion gets us anywhere. I enough, I get the historical salience of that pasture and it made a lot of sense in the early in the mid twentieth century. I don't think it makes very I sense at all in the early twenty first century. Well, thank you for allowing me for moment to try to channel your uncle mooney and maybe malcolm x, and this conversation as we look forward to the twenty first century. You mention that in part, your trouble by the term african american, so words are funny things until they're. Not so let me ask about what I think is one of the most powerful uncontroversial words in the english language. The inward.

So this is a word that I can't say that only certain people have the right to say. I have a friend Joe rogan yeah, who has I will would you say there was mass pushback or highlighting of of the fact that he just say and word, but the said the full word many times throughout his conversations when referring to in a better way about the power, or of words, especially. One related to certain comedians, using those words yeah? What do you think about this word is its empowering is destructive. What is it, what does it mean for re? in america, What does it mean that people like Joe rogan

were essentially there's an attempt to cancel him for using the word. Just as it is a scholar of human nature, were eating about this whole thing, This is a phenomenon that interests me. Ok, the inward nigger I could say because I'm black, but I mean I can also say because I like hip, hop and when I listen to hip hop, I hear the word all the time. These niggers ain't did. You know you ain't watch out for these etc. I heard the word constantly, as I was growing up, I as a boy and a young man in chicago magazine shit. That was said. That was you know that the end that could be a reflection of some kind of pathology within the aftermarket community of self hatred and so forth. It could be, or could you be a colloquial linguistic way? I mean, I assume other groups also have their.

Various I dont know how the irish talk about their irish brothers and whatever in I don't know how the Jews talk about the jewish brothers and whatever, but black people when talking about other black people use the n word all the time. My nigga in I g g, a yeah. You know my nigga, that is a term of endearment, my friend randall Kennedy of the A law professor at harvard university has a book called nigger and he uses the word in the title of the book. The history of a strange history of a of a provocative word is somebody there's a subtitle, but the title of the book Is it I g g e r, colon, and then he has a subtitle. I think of

course. The use of the word as a smaller and an insult which is a part of the history of black people in the united states, the use of the word by the southern racist. Segregation is, we don't want no niggers up in here. Yeah yeah nixon nix have no place here. restaurant in my store and Sarah that's meant to be an insult. It's an insult to people. That's a fighting word, it's a! Where did you say that to somebody it's it's a invitation for conflict. That said, what is it that about this particular word and also the symmetry of it that. Do you think it's empowering to the black me too? No word. Might my honest answer to you? Is I don't know I don't fully understand it. It has become so balikh away and the police of the use of the word. I can say it, but why people can't say

I can say- and I'm not a racist, I'm not a self aiding black here, I'm just speaking the language of colloquial english that has emerged amongst african american, in which that word plays a big role. But the prohibition on its use by others and, of course, in the jail rogan case. It wasn't as if he was calling anybody any inward. He was simply pointing out that people have said stuff in which the inward was a part of what they and now he did make the statement about the. How did he put it? The planet of the apes that one of the in offensive things that he said had a you know. He walked into a room. There's a bunch of black guys standing around says like planet of the apes. It's like africa planet of the apes yeah. He should. It any here, but there is one more careful that was. That was an insult that was that was you know something that you now, if you say that people are offended, they have a right to be

send it, and if you didn't mean to offend them, you can apologizing did apologize. I accept this apology, jos, ok with me. As far as that goes in fact, Mc water in our john wick water denied at the podcast that I do the Glenn show I had a conversation, part of which touched on the Joe rogan phenomenon, and we concluded he didn't really. Anything wrong. I mean I mean you can like an email. You can pay them whatever, but the idea that he's a racism is kind of ridiculous. Frankly, I mean joy, Yeah. If that's your test of what constitutes a racist, the utterance of the word, then you know it's kind of a it's. It's kind of silly is as far as I'm concerned. What do you think about the rigorous testing of people? to the degree they're racist or not the accusation of racism being away to attack too, are to bully to divide. So what are the pros and cons of that

again because it does reveal the assholes and the racists, but it can now hurt people. Who are not where I think have a history here in the united states, a blatant racism. That goes back a long way and that has present day echoes. So very racist, I mean there are people who look and see all those black people there, the pigeon this business, onawandah patronize its business anymore, who, if they dont are they sign is dating somebody that is black. They will say. I really wish Would you do that to me? Why are you hang out with those people? Don't you know who they are? There are people there are racist. There are black races, that is black people who see somebody was white and then invoke a whole lot of stereotypes or whatever you have. I This rule dislike based upon nothing

other than the color the person's skin. Such people exist. Racism is a real thing, etc. On the other hand,. I think this throwing around you know the accusation racism, a college professor, is teaching. Of course he says in the context of teaching the course that the under representation of blacks and physics program at this university is because they skull lower on the test than other groups and they're not qualify. So say the professor gives a lecture.

It says we don't have more blacks in the physics department at this university because there are not enough qualified blacks. Somebody in the classroom who hears that a black student objects he's a racist. Okay, that's a power move, it's a move to try to control the conversation. It's not an argument. It's an epithet. You said that a person who has a particular idea that you dont, like maybe that ideas I'm a guest affirmative action. I think it's unfair. I was just with dorian abbot dorian abbot is a scientist at the university of Chicago. Who published a peace and newsweek magazine in which he said that he thought affirmative action and racial balancing was announced

Well, he was invited to give a lecture at mit, a very distinguished lecturer in his field, based on planetary science. I don't know exactly what it is and I'm not a scientist, but in any case, because he had said. That he didn't like affirmative action, and he thought affirmative action was racists. That's basically what he said. Why are we looking at people based upon their race into submission Do it on their merit. That was his position. Now people protesting at the university where he was invite

at mit saying that he is a racist because he had that opinion. He gets disinvited Charles murray and is a popular social science writer who is famous for his book about I q, the bell curve, one chapter of which chronicles the racial differences between black and white in performance on mental ability, test and speculates about the extent to which such differences may be connected with the genetic inheritance of these racially distinct populations. Now I could be wrong about everything that he sang Southern poverty law center calls him a white supremacist, because he observes that there are racial differences in measured intellectual ability amongst americans of different racial dessert.

The eyes the in he could be wrong. Let me stipulate that he is wrong. I mean I'm gonna want to argue about whether he's writer, but about whether he is wrong. He's addressing himself to a factual issue, and now the issue becomes instead of grappling with the factual questions at hand. And demonstrating his It's a wrong this about those questions. The issue becomes his character, he's a races, that's my mind. A lot like calling him a witch. The use of that word now, I think, has parallels to accusing people of witchcraft.

Because they have views about substantive questions that bear on racial inequality or racial difference, that a person finds unacceptable or that a person disagrees with, and you think you can shut somebody up and crime in the cities of chicago ST louis baltimore, philadelphia, washing in d c is out of control. Some person might say: murder rate is high who's committing those crimes they're mostly black young men, who are doing the car jack. He's in who are doing the shootings they're killing each other there making our city on live livable, now, that's a hypothetical statement that our offer it might be correct. It might be incorrect, it might be appropriate, it might be inappropriate. It may be true, but something that we would be better off if people

the focus on I dont know responding to someone making that statement. Have you seen what has happened to my city? It used to be that you could go to north michigan I knew and you could find one after another after another high end shop. This is in chicago, my hometown and tourists would come and they go to the theater, and there were restaurants and they'd go out. They dont. Do it anymore. You know what half of those stores aborted up now you know why? Because when George Floyd was killed, black people marked in the city and they burnt and they waited and they looted, and it has been the same ever since, and I'm moving to the suburbs I'll be damned. If I'm gonna send my children to those schools, a person could say that they might be right. They might be wrong to say it. Calling them erases isn't exactly not a rebuttal of what they said. It's a move, its

move to try to take control of the conversation by accusing someone of having bad character because they said something that made you uncomfortable, which you can't deal with. So you think you can shut them up by calling them racist, you might as well be calling them a which you might as well be for their head on a platter, because they believe that satan is lord, because that's the kind of quote argument close court, which is precisely not an argument that people Who invoke that turn are using and here's what I have to say about that. It's a falls errand to try to refute somebody. By calling them a which likewise, it's a fool's erin to try to re, but the contrary, forces in american politics that our reaction, often to real

instead of going on on the ground in black communities in the cities across this country. By calling people are racists, you may shut them up, but you won't change their minds and you know what, at the end of the day, they're going to go to the ballot box and they're gonna vote they're gonna pick up their store and they're gonna, move it to the other side of town or to another town altogether? They're gonna keep their children away from places where they think the influences are harmful to those children, they may not even talk about it in public. You can believe that in private that they're talking about it with each other. You had better find a more effective way of dealing with the conflict in this kind. Free that follow long, racial fault lines then calling people witches, which is what this you know- anti racist, you're races You think that the out of wedlock, birth rate amongst black americans is seven babies out of ten aboard to a one without a husband, their families are falling.

Part now no one says that in public because they be collar a racist if they said it in public, but as a matter of fact, the families are falling apart. You didn't change that, in the least by telling people to shut up about it, Daniel Patrick Moynihan, cotter races in the nineteen sixties, the late senator new york senator was a fellow employee and intellectual writing reports, any rights, a report about the negro family carded in those years. If I Is the word negro now they're going to call me a racist. If I'm a white person, I can't even use the word negro, which is a historically legitimate reference to the descendants of the slaves, enslaved people which we were as black americans proud to use until yesterday. So all this linguistic policing is a sign of weakness, is false: black power,

People will see you the ground. Ok, you want me to use that word. I want you so where do you? Ok, you don't want me to talk about that and public art. I won't talk about in public anymore. I don't want to be called a racist okay, so I want to express my opinion. You haven't chased anybody's mind so some mention that for that you haven't, J but his mind, but also for things like in university. Is an institution, this diversity, fusion and equity of meetings in education and so on, and I believe, a reds somewhere a been like a mission to your fine big a year ago on show people should listen to. It is amazing that suggests interviews, view the listen to believe you mentioned. Some of the EU those kinds of meanings people might sit through not along, but that does necessarily mean s, making progress. That they may not they may,

she'd be bodily up a frustration, that's the fear is that that's going to result in a young A pendulum pendulum serve push back towards this idea of force, I, appreciation that forced anti racism kind of thing I talk about this, often in my pocket sets the glib show you know, and yet you can find the glenn show on my youtube channel and also at sub stack a day of great sub stack. You and your and do q and q and a's, and all that kind of stuff, unpatriotic, yeah, so yeah. So people should definitely you his blanket thousand Yeah I mean one concern is that the policing of the superficial policing is a part of political correctness. You know the insistence that you only you certain words that you only talk in a certain way is a phoney kind of our because it doesn't actually persuade people about the issues that are at hand instead in it it forces

underground in their talk about these issues, and- and that's that's problematic much better- that we have over an explicit and honest disagreement to the extent that there are disagreement, about things that are going on, then that we have a superficial kind of new. You know a conversation. That is a perished of any real biting discomforting confrontation with with the realities of the situation at hand and for black americans. I think one big part of the reality of the situation in hand is violent crime, violent crime. You know a police officer is afraid when he stops the car, because it's an eighteen year old driver and the vehicle he's got. Dreadlocks is a black person that the car doesn't have the right license, plate he's afraid to deal with that person.

And one reason he's afraid to deal with them is because a few who look like him are behaving violently there And this is usually perpetrated against others who look like themselves, but not always, and then reality doesn't get changed by you know tell me. Newspaper writer who writes about it that they are racist or enforcing within a newsroom? You can cover that only in that way, because to do so would be racist that that that I think it's a monumental mistake to enforce a closure on public discussion based upon a calculation that if we allow people of twitter, allows this kind of post if the washington post runs this kind of story, etc, you end up with

a superficial politeness, but a subterranean see in resentment, then only makes matters worse. If I can get your common, maybe of ideas, because it does seem that this kind of attack works of being called the racists being called maybe not sexist, but somebody you know, like you were going to Johnny depp trial now right information trial and the reason is the defamation drowse, because all

it's a single accusation of johnny depp being as somebody who sexually and physically abused, I ever heard, and all it took, is just a single article or no proof was given. I accept the accusation itself and the world believed it, so it's effective. So how do you fight back? If it's so damn effective that you can just call anybody racist? and it works is hard to wash off its You'Re- are you not proven in the court of law or anything like that, but we will get those articles get that label and then the world moves on and just assumes that person's racist. So what had How do you do you have any idea how to fight back? I don't frankly,

just highlighting those members who have made this statement about value jet. She made some kind of ape like reference another whatever in her she'll get cancer in and she's a raise. So. First of all, pointing it out, I suppose, is one of the most powerful things that this the hypocrisy of it? You say it works I guess you're right. It used to be the collar someone. A communist worked in going back to the late forties, early fifties, red scare mccarthyism and what not and the person might have the law to a club that was prowl soviet union in the nineteen thirty. When they went college we might have voted for the socialist group. It did henry wallace in the presidential election of nineteen, forty eight, they my blog to the communist party. They they, they might think Karl Marx was right about a whole lot of stuff about capitalism and whatnot, and they got a communist or a marxist

They could ruin their career, could ruin their lives. You know and allow people shut up about it and it took, and it went on for a long time and in a way, and in a way that canada is still there, going on. I mean you call somebody a marxist if, if you can make that stick they certainly we not gonna get elected president of the united states, but I don't know about this. I think you know. I once heard this book by a german political scientists, cod Elisabeth neuer norman. There was the writers name, a list. No, you know book was called the spiral of silence and the argument was there can be some views. Some issues and society that get are defined in such a way that its inappropriate to hold those views

And as a result, people who don't wanna be shamed, you don't wanna, be be your size, dont express those views and when they don't express them any. Body holding the view because they don't hear it said by others, think that their they only one or one of the few who hold the view as all that. I want to be the only one out there saying something, so they keep it to themselves. So now this view, this attitude in society could be held by a large number of people, but because of the fear that if they were to express it, they'd be ostracised. No one says it is since no one is saying it the others. The view dont know that they are not alone, that are not the only ones who hold the view, and hence they keep silent. There could be an equilibrium. It could be a relatively stable situation in which the emperor has no clothes. Everybody can see that this dude is naked,

but everybody thinks that you know I don't wanna, be the only one to say it, and so we kind of calabria, in the charade of keeping the view to ourselves. Then, along comes an event that somebody decides to defy the consensus and speak out. It could be looking two in the story about the emperor. Has no clothes doesn't realize that he's not supposed to say that the emperor is naked. The thing about the kid in the story who says that the emperor is naked? It's not that he sang it. It's not even that other people here and saying it. It's there. Everybody knows that everybody else heard him say it kay the kid who speaks out and says the emperor has no clothes. It's a circumstance which is common knowledge, that the emperor has no clothes and common now Does not just mean knowledge

does not even mean widespread knowledge, it means comprehensive knowledge of other persons. Knowledge of the thing came saw, the spiral of silence is equally Brian, that is susceptible to being undermined by process of of a kind of cumulative process. Snowballing process of revelation That is not the only one who thinks this way is that seem to think that there is an ocean of common knowledge, There were waiting for the little kid to wake a sub two different little parts of it. That's correct in the little kid by the way could be somebody like donald trump. Only more effective then download from somebody who is smarter than donald trump. Somebody shrewder, then donald trump. Somebody who figures out that went

call him. Capron takes a knee at a football game and says I'm not gonna stand for this present regions that a vast number of people are very unhappy about that. Somebody who understands that when a black lives matter activists stands up with his bar physicists, bearing this bitch down a city in the united states of america done a lot of people are upset, about that, a lot of them a person, a shrewd politician, a shrewd manager of a public image, could build on and create a circumstance in which more and more people will feel safe to express the view in the more who express it safe for those who have yet to express it, but who hold it will feel than expressing it and to the extent that the view is very widespread but is kept under wraps and explore

could happen, and you can look up tomorrow and have a very different country than you had today, because the conspiracy of silence, the spiral of silence in sub getting unravelled by somebody who steps out away from the consensus, dares to take the slings and arrows of exposing themselves as a nice air, but taps into a sentiment. That's that's very widespread and I fear that, with respect to many racial issues, this is the situation that we actually confront. That could unravel a very ugly way. But it can also unraveling and a beautiful way says, is depending there is a spiral of silence, you're saying and it could be. His speaking of children, there's matter children there's a guy named isla musk cricket, whom I being candidate for such an ravelling right.

mentioned. The person s picks out could be it our trump. But in this current situation of living like as this week, you on purchased twitter, that's what I hear and is pushing for in all kinds of ways. The increase of free speech on twitter and Speaking about some of the issues that we have been speaking about here with you, but maybe in broader strokes about just the fact that you have to it's. Ok, to point out that the emperor, where is not clear, and to do so from all sides in a way that everybody's a little bit pissed off, but not too much think about this whole effort of free speech. In these public platforms. Yolanda predict twitter you're, avid twitter user budget public platform for discourse

for us as a civilization tooth figures stuff out here. Well, the people on the left. Are very upset about the possibility that a lot musk and twitter will be open to more open to provocative public speech that has here before been banned or suppressed, and I think they might be right to be concerned that that could happen. I don't know enough about the technology and about the market to read. A army at social media what night it seems like it's a complicated system of interactions between ball and who the uses are and so forth and so on. I do now that that near post story about hunted Biden slapped was real news and could have affected the outcome of the election and it was suppressed and that twitter had a role in suppressing it

I do know that the question of where the cove at nineteen virus originated in the role that lab leak account could have played in the public purse, sing. That event was real news and that it was suppressed by people with trying to control misinformation, disinformation russian dis information campaigns and what not so you're has users I'm one of them and it has a lotta uses its eyes biggest facebook. I gather it's not, but it's important. The ability to construct counter platforms where people moving around and whatnot it's a kind of network dynamic that maybe You could understand a better than I do being a social scientists, but Again, you will understand here, even if people uncle inside twitter it which is fascinating, it's a monster because of just the bandwidth

messaging- and you don't know who is about who is a human. That's a fascinating dynamic in the end the viral nature of negativity here. Just that all of those dynamics. Of course, you are probably really the right person to understand it from are so scientists perspective from an economic perspective, but nobody really understands in its fast any within that domain. Do you allow for free speech not allow for free speech, encourage free speech, defend free speech. And, at the same time, manage me millions of uncommon conversations from just becoming in insanely chaotic, serve from from twitter perspective. They want people to be happy to grow, to actually have difficult, critical conversations and aid,

You know the problem with humans as they think they know what that is, and they think they can. Both things as misinformation is as counter productive for healthy conversations in quotes and the problem. As we are learning humans are not able to do that effectively. First of all, power corrupts there's something delicious. Bout the having the power to label, something is misinformation. You do that once something that might be obviously misinformation, and these are getting greedy is they're. Getting excited feels good, if is good, to label something is misinformation, this information that you just don't like over time, especially as a cultural asset of company. That leaves a certain political direction. Airlines in all the groups that we talked about means a certain way,

the start to labels, misinformation, things they just don't like, and there's that powers delicious and corrupt. You have to construct mechanisms like the founding fathers did for somehow preventing you from allowing their party to delicious exist, as my perspective onwards, go out. Just tell you Personally, I am excited about the prospect. I'm glad to see must making the move that he's making and will see what happens at twitter and so forth. The look for further What did he say? Let's make twitter more fun, I'm looking for the two are to the fund talk about you are at a prestigious university brown university frown university and you mentioned that universities might be in trouble figures who jordan, but everywhere else,

barbarians, are at the gate, the the barbarians at the gate of the universe. So, first of all, what is too you beauty all about the ideal of the university in america. Of academia and what is at threat? What are you know? A university is dedicated to the pursuit of truth. And to the education and nurturing training of young people as they enter into the pursuit of truth today, research into teaching a environment of free inquiry and civil discourse So free inquiry means you go wherever that evidence and your imagination may lead. You and silver discourse means that you exchange arguing

with people when you don't agree with them on behalf of trying to get to the bottom of things the university is a magnificent institution, it is a relatively modern institution in last five hundred Here's a saw me. There are universities that are older than that, but the great research universities of the world, not only here in the united states, are places where here and ingenuity, is nurtured. I new law knowledge is created and where young people are equipped to answer, questions that are open questions about. It systems in the world that we live in. You can trace too. The university much, if not most, of the advances in technology and resource for this, our understanding of the origins of the species. You're, the universe, cosmology cetera science of the pursuit of

Mr understanding, the nurturing of a traditions of increase of also bessie universe, barbarians at the gates. The people who are trying to shut down open inquiry at the university on behalf of their particular view about things are a threat to what the university stands for and they should be resisted. So if I'm inquiring, about the nature of human intelligence I want to study differences between human populations in their acquisition of or their expression of, cognitive ability. That's fair game. It's an open call If, if I want to know something about the nature of gender, the asian identity, engender this formula and what not that's fair, in the study and a university, you can't shut that down. You should be able to buy saying I have a pension

position here. I'm a member of a particular identity group suppose I want to study the history of colonialism And there's a narrative on the progressive side, which is colonialism is about europeans dominating and stealing a whatever whatever, and I haven't a faint well. There's another aspect to the story about colonialism to which is that it's a mechanism for the diffusion of the best in human civilization to pop listen that were significantly leg. Behind with respect to that, it brought literacy through the southern hemisphere. Populations were dominated in the process of the colonizing thing is complicated. They cannot position by the way. I'm just saying somebody at a university should be able to take it up, pursue it and engage in argument were people about I'm talking about race, ethnicity, but this extends to a wide range of things Those who talk about climate and one since, as the earth is endangered because carbon in global warming, it

seven. Another person says no way, no, eight look at where we stand in the twenty first century, we're vastly richer than our ancestors just two hundred and fifty years ago. We have much more knowledge about that. So far, the solana on two hundred and fifty years from now human, ingenuity will have devised in ways that we cannot even begin to anticipate all manner of technological means, for jane the problem? There's no reason that we should shut down industrial civilization today because we fear the consequences of it when in fact we are vastly richer than our ancestors and those who two centuries after us will be vastly more effective at dealing with problems than we are now lets it's. You know, sarah, I'm not actually making that argument. I'm just saying the tendency to try to.

Oh no, that person is a climate deny or they can pursue. Their area of inquiry is against the spirit of the university. I think the barbarians at the gates has to do. With the people who think they know what the right side of history is and try to make the university stand on the right side of history. My position is you don't know what the right side of history is and the purpose of a university is to equip you to be able to think about what is the right side of history. What what is the solution to the dilemmas that confront us as human beings living on this planet with the big. Instead, we are condition that we are so the identity arians, the ones who want to make university kowtow to their particular understandings about their own identity,

We now have at the brown university and various other places. We don't do call this day any more. We do indigenous peoples day when that day comes up in october. We don't talk about Columbus there taken down statues of Columbus all across the country what is so. I am not arguing anything here other than that. The latter day position by pox, black indigenous and other people have covered the latter day position that the university has to reflect a particular sensibility, about these identity questions. I think it's a threat to the integrity of the enterprise. I dont think you stating it I I tend to be just for my limited knowledge, if mit, but perhaps the replies broadly,

I think the beauty of the university, broadly speaking, is the faculty and students and the problem arises from the override, away over growing administration. That gives again thinks that it knows enough to make rules and conclusions based on a set of beliefs and then in based on that empowers a certain small selection of students to be the sort of voices of activism, of a particular dear and not, I think, guy tourism is beautiful, but not just activism, but a b. The disagrees is shut down and that that I think that the blame lies with the administration so

The solution is in lessening just like the solution with two big of a government to big of a theocracy give is, there needs to be redistribution of power to what makes universities beautiful, which is the old students and the young students, old students being professors. Sir Scott, the scholars, the curious mines, the people there in this whole thing. To explore the world to be curious about it on a salary, that's probably wait too long for the thing they're doing. That's that's the that's the whole point. Administration just gets in the way and is the source of this kind of their? I would say the in beautiful phrasing I will say the administration is the barbarians at the gate. So on the solution is smaller bureaucracy, small administrations? I thought on this point yet this conversation you put on

so back with jordan, Jordan petersen about cognitive inequality and biggest huddled titled wrestling with cognitive. In reality, this particular topic of just iq differences between groups, Why is this? Why is it so dangerous to talk about why this particular topic, where it's like a carbon like people inferior, soggy, sailor, genetically inferior? That's, what people, say like your rationalizing the disparity of outcomes by reference to the entrenched. Inferiority of black people. If you, if you say cognitive ability matters for social outcomes, if you cognitive ability, exist, people really are different in terms of their intellectual functioning and, if you say cognitive abilities, differences are does are substantial between racially define populations,

Some of that there is cognitive abilities matters in a difference by race is the conclusion that outcome. Differences by race are in part due to natural differences between the populations. People find that to be completely offensive an acceptable. So that's what I think, is going on. Can you steal man that case that we should be careful doing that kind of research, so this has to do with research. It's like the nazis used nature in their propaganda right is, you can use white supremacist could use conclusions and cherry pick conclusions of studies to to push there to push their agenda. Can you steal man the case that we should be careful yeah? I could do it at three levels. One is: what do we mean by cognitive ability? So there's many different kinds of

tell it gives a person might say how good our iq test at measuring other kinds of human capacity is that our pertinent to success in life, like temperament, like emotional intelligence, I want. So intelligence is not a one dimensional thing measured by G. The cognitive psychologists talk Gee, the general intelligence factor, which is the statistical construction It's a factor, analytic resolution of the correlation across individuals in their path. Limits on a battery a different kind of test. They use that too define a general fact of intelligence that a person could say That is a very narrow view of what human mental capacities actually are and that its much better think about multi dimensional measures of human metal function.

Rather than a single cognitive ability measure so called I q, which say narrow construction that, doesn't capture all of the sea all nuance of human difference in functioning functioning is not just the ability to recite backwards, a sequence of numbers. I say: eight, seven, nine five, three to you say two, three, five, seven, eight nine! So not just that intelligence is a complex management of many different dimensions of human performance, including things like being able to stick with a task in and not give up. The things like being able to discipline and control your impulses source to remain focused So for that could be one dimension. I could start by questioning the very foundation of the argument for racial differences in

its viability, ability by saying that you're measure of cognitive ability is flawed I could go to a higher level. I could say what we really interested in is shall outcomes and the question of what factors influence social outcomes, extends beyond mental ability to many other things, so here's an example visual acuity. How well do you see you're not wearing glasses? I am visual. Acuity varies between human beings. Some people, better than other people, do, visual acuity can be measured. I can put you on the chart and you can can you. If I read that bottom line in small print or not so can measure visual acuity and it varies between human beings. Visual acuity is partly genetic. I think. That's undoubtedly true,

we inherit jane said influence, whether in that we are near sighted farsighted or ethnic magic or whatever visual acuity difference between people and can be measured and is under genetic control, on the other hand, corrective lenses, allow for us to level the play feel between people who were differently endowed in terms of visual acuity. Likewise, Social outcomes are what we really interested in employment earnings weather. The law abiding. How do they conduct themselves and their families and so forth amongst individuals? Yes, social outcomes are influenced by so cognitive ability, but they influenced by many other things as well. If they can there are interventions that can be undertaken in society. That law,

of all the playing field between people who have different natural endowments cognitive ability, the fact that people or groups different cognitive ability becomes less significant, just like it's less significant, the people, differ with respect to how well they see when corrective linz allow for or the levelling of that playing field, There are in fact interventions educational interventions, early childhood intervention that have been shown to level the playing field to create better. Why falcons where people, even if they happen to be in doubt, low intelligent, saw a second level arguing against this whole programme of research on human differences and intelligence, to observe that yes, human beings and perhaps racially defy groups, may differ on average in intellectual endowment, they're well may be social interventions that level the playing field, whether its education or any other kinds of problematic interventions, especially for the poor

A final level of argument is the one that you alluded to, which is that, if you talk like this you're going to encourage a kind of politics which is very ugly and it's best to frame the discussion in ways that don't put emphasis on racially define natural differences between populations. That's argument that I am myself personally conflicted about on the one hand, I think you know those people just stupid is racist on the other hand, I think that the calculation we shouldn't do this kind of research put them at the national science foundation of research team submits a proposal. The proposal proposes to undertake a study. The study will explore the extent to which people and racial groups differ with respect to the intellectual performance,

and how that's a full influence by their genetic and environmental interactions, and I decide not to fund the study based on a political calculation that the subject is too sensitive, and if you explain that subject you might get the wrong answer and if you get the wrong answer, the white supremacist will be encouraged. Where that is presuming before the research is done, that I know the outcome of the research and that I can calculate what the political consequence of the research outcome is: gonna, be that's That's assuming the thing before you even know. What the thing actually is is a kind of omniscience. It presumes that you, as the master of the universe, can tell people what it is that people are being treated like and what it is that their capable of knowing what it is that there are not capable of knowing it would be, like someone saying, einstein. I dunno about that special relative,

the theory. You know it could well lead to the development of technology Jesus would allow nuclear weapons, as some are saying, the oppenheimer was physicists seeing the manhattan project where the? U s, develop those nuclear weapons capacity, don't carry out that project because they re of acquiring that knowledge may be more than we can deal with someone someone doing biomedical research who's interested in exploring. The nature of the human genome, don't carry out that experimental, in undertaking whatever, because the consequences could be deleterious, while the consequences could be deleterious, consequences could also be the care of cancer. The consequences could also be being able to generate electric power without producing carbon effluent, who are you to tell me the you being the person in the political position to control the research, what the consequent doing the researches. I I think I don't

What is seed that kind of power to politicians over the course of of human inquiry? So, yes, I would want there to be regulated hence governing the use of bio, logically, sensitive and potentially dangerous pathogens. In a lab in will han or anyplace else I would not want to simply leave that to laissez faire On the other hand, I think that the tendency to try shut down. Inquiry on behalf of suppose it address political consequences is the road to ignorance and impoverishment at the end of the day for humankind, denying ourselves the potential benefits of that kind of inquiry. I think we need to take our chances within query rather than to try to control it, and I feel way about the exploration of human intelligence as much as anything else. So you

Ask me to steal man the case against research, on iq of the sort that Charles Marian as for popularizing and I said, a your man of intelligence is single. Mention only now to be multi dimensional, I've said be the consequences of people's differing an entire. It just depends not only on the natural endowments of the people, but also on the environment and the potential for intervening in that environment environments. One or another kind of instrument, as the metaphorical example of the eu corrective lenses to level the playing field between people with different visual acuity indicates but Finally, I've said yes, research on racial differences, and I q can foster political believed that we would regard to be now just on the other hand, to presume that what we don't

oh yeah and might find out from the research is gonna be harmful, is assume a kind of function or of knowing what the outcome of unknown processes might be, which we ought to be very slow to embrace, because if we had done so, In the past. We wouldn't have nuclear power, there's a lot of things. We would not mean what would people saying about darwin and exploration of the evolution and origin of species. They were afraid that it was gonna. In effect disprove the religious based accounts of you know just what were they say about copernicus and etc, etc. So That was a mass for full layering quote wrestling with the cognitive inequality he dragged in nuclear research. Copernicus darwin, biomedical research or genetics even covered and in her

slab leak, I mean this does that that was just fun to listen to okay, okay, let me ask you about your politics, so you've recently said that you're, a conservative, leaning emitting, maybe that's a day to day thing Maybe we can push back, but here somebody like your friend John MC warder, who could say is on your left here today, the view in, and you have somebody like arm, thomas old, who may be then, to the right of you, your problem, and yet there is a lot of overlap between the three of you re. So to what degree does politics effect? Your view on race, america, and maybe to what degree, does you're.

View on race affect your politics, ok and that for people who don't know has shifted over time, you ve been in quite a roller coaster, as anybody who thinks about the world should be well Let's begin with the fact that I was trained as an economist in a truly of what many people would call. Neo liberalism I was trained at mit, which was not right wing place by any means, but it was a place where you learned about markets and about the benefits of capitalism as a way of organizing society, the virtues of free enterprise, the fact that the pursuit of profit was not

certainly a bad thing, but it well might be the road to prosperity and to economic growth. The idea that private property and individual seeking acquire and succeeding in acquiring wealth did create inequality, but it also creates the opportunity- and it also expanded knowledge in our control over the fiscal environment which were buried in it, etc, and so we were not marxist at mit. Although we did read months at least those of us who are intellectually curious, you read marks marshals important figure in this. We of the western. I think denmark should be read in capital, three volumes, etc, alienation of labour and what not the implicate. Tens of modernization of the advent of industrial capitalism etc. That that kind of dynamic it deserves to be studied and that to come at it in cool way, informed

by the intellectual inheritance of marx and marxism. I think that's a part of a full education and social philosophy and an economic analysis. Is that an open minded person ought to acquaint themselves with, but at the end of the day, I think that the I think that the free marketeers have the better of it. I think the story of the twentieth century, as far as economic development is concerned, reflects that. I think that The experiments where centralized control over economic decisions was the order of the day failed. I think that the fact of the twenty first century rise of china as a force has a lot to do with this.

Spread of an effect capitalists, oriented modes of any economic exchange, freeing up prices, markets, property and so forth are, although obviously it's a complicated, political economic system of talking about china, but I think that the store of the twentieth century and the hope for the twenty first century is that Prosperity is enhanced through the free change of goods and the pursuit and acquisition of property by p in a more or less capitalist oriented a system. That that's that's the view that I hold, I guess that makes me concern If I don't know, I want to say, that's not to the exclusion of a social safety net on that that old people in an ideal, social system would be left to them

devices, regardless of whether that they had saved for their retirement saying that the ideal of extending decent access to health care to all people, regardless of whether or not they can afford it. Decent access to education to people regardless of whether that they can afford it is standing in the way of prosperity. I don't believe that I think the mixed economies that we see in europe and north America, a balancing of the virtues of free enterprise, pretty in the pursuit of wealth, on the one hand, against does needs to have a decent society in which people who fall between the cracks nevertheless are bolstered through a sense of social solidarity. That is accommodated by our common membership within a single nation state, which is why nationalism is important in its. Why I think borders are important because without

a coherent polity who can see themselves as in a common situate and agree to their politics to support each other. To some extent, you can sustain safety net, you can that's. You cannot have a social safety net for a global population. You can only have a social safety net for a bounded relation who have a sense of common membership in an ongoing political enterprise which they pay their due to their taxes. In order to sustain it, there's a balancing that has to go on. So that's the first thing that I would say about politics, I'm a neo, liberal economists, I believe in markets, I believe in prices, I believe and profit corporations are not an incarnation of evil cooper since our own legal nexus, through which production gets organ in which you solicit the cooperation of workers of people who provide capital

People who provide raw materials and input of customers and so on and that. functionality allows for the production of goods and their distribution and their earning of income and its distribution, which, at the end of the day, is the foundation of our prosperity. Corporations are people to mitt romney, in trouble for saying that twenty two but corporations are said nothing but a legal fiction. The cooperation is not a person as such, but the nexus of contracts and relationships amongst stakeholders who intersect in the context of the corporation is the way in which we organise them simply complex, set of activities that are necessary in order to produce economic benefits and to feed people. In order to have any and what a cell phone in their pocket in order to be able to travel from one side of a country.

To another on a device that is when almost absolute, certainly gonna, safely take off and land and in order to be able to build cities and its center, but to the markets, the ideal of the market collide with the ideal of all. Men are created, equal the ideology, the struggle there would be been talking about of of what it means to sort of empower humans that make up this great country. do they collide. Where do they collide? Where markets are gonna produce, an equality and all men being equal is a statement about the intrinsic worth a p or not about the situation that will come about when people interact with each other through markets, because people are actually different and because the fact is that are beyond anybody's control, com lock and chance that in our at you- and I both invest,

It looked our priority, like your investment in my investment were equally likely to succeed, but as a matter of fact, ex post facto, your investment succeeds. My investment doesn't succeed. Have wealth, and you have wealth is an inevitable consequence of environment, in which both of us are free to make our investment choices and where the consequences of investment can import upon a random says of which no one has control. But you asked me about my politics and I was just trying to a foundation by saying I began as an economist in the tradition. Liberalism, Adam smith and so forth, John maynard keynes for that matter and so forth that milton friedman and so forth that Paul samuel above solar, James Tobin

and so forth a thomas soul. Yes, that appreciates property. The virtues of free enterprise, set of institutions that allow for security of contract it, rule of law, things of this kind. So that's one thing say about my politics. Another thing about my politics in your right, I've moved around is that you know I began society chicago black kid. I was the liberal Democrat I encountered the economic curriculum, my tea and I became trained in economics and the tradition that I have just described and I encountered also the reagan revolution. This is the late seventies and early eighties. These are big debates about I'm policy and so on, and

I found a lot to admire in the supply siders. The people were saying let's get the government out of the way the people who are worried about National debt, which is a lot more than it was. Then the people are worried that the welfare state could be too big, that the incentives are trapper. Programmes could be kind of inductive, that you had a war on poverty, and we did have a war on poverty and poverty. One and there's a lot of evidence. War on poverty law was lost by the people who are trying to quote unquote, eradicate, poverty in our time that since it was really do matter and that the state which is driven by politics is often unresponsive to the dictates of incentives. As markets eliminate people who are inefficient and we're not cognisant of the consequences of incentives cause they kick, cover their bottom line, and they will persist for very long if they can't The bottom line they are forced to respond to the realities of difference,

the costs and benefits and so forth, in a way that governments can cover because they have their hands in our pockets. Can cover their losses and they can make accounts balance notwithstanding their mistakes because they can take my property by fee at by the power of the state. The text Electric comes if I don't pay, seizes my holdings and they can carry on in that way. They need the corrective influence of markets in order to be responsive to the realities of life. I mean I may not like it that prices are telling me that something that I want to do is infeasible. I may not like it, but what the prices are telling me is that the costs of doing it exceed the benefits to be derived from doing it and if you persist in doing it notwithstanding that, then I'm gonna run losses in those losses will accumulate in the narrow fact of that over an entire society is stagnation.

The ultimate attenuation of the economic benefits that might be available to people again. I think if you look at the developing world in the postcode your period, the second half of the twentieth century, that's exactly what you see planning doesnt work, centralized control of resource allocation doesn't work. Ok, so I became more. Can serve it in that respect, but I sold, and this has to do with race lost faith in the past year that big, what became of the civil rights movement some rights movement. Cook king nineteen sixty three, the sunrise movement starts out as we want equal.

If the ship in the polity, but it becomes a a and a a system of ties, a cover, I'm going to argue for deficiencies that are discernible within black american society, which only we could correct. That's a very controversial statement. Ah I I make it with trepidation. I I don't take any pleasure in saying it, but here's what I'm talking about. So I'm talking about the family, so the family is a matter internal to the commission, de about how men and women relate to each other in engaging social reproduction child bearing the standing up of households, the context, in which children are develop, our maturing and so forth, and so on. So they after them

can family is in trouble. I think I can demonstrate that by reference to high rates of marital dissolution, by high rates of birth, two out of wedlock and so forth, You cannot say that the african american families in trouble violence side is an order of magnitude, more prevalent amongst african americans that it is in society as a whole. This behaviour, its behaviour of our people. I speak of black people. Of course we are not the only people is society from violence is an issue. It's an order, two more prevalent in our communities, I'm talking about schooling and school failure. So we have affirmative action as a cover. It's a band aid on differences in the development of intellectual performance, which is only

be a consequence of the natural intelligence of people and largely a consequence of how people spend their time what they value, how they discipline themselves, what they with their opportunities how parents raise their children, what peer groups value things of this kind, the asian students world scoring off the charts on these exams are doing it not because they are intrinsically more intelligence about the people, but because they work harder because their parents and more insistent on focusing on their intellectual performance, does the disciplined because of the way that they devote their time in their resources to equipping their children to function in it. For a century. This is what I believe. I think it's demonstrably the case, and it is a factor in racial disparity. The way that the civil rights movement has evolved on the wing of the democratic party into an organ

apples year of for this, failures of african americans to seize the opportunities that exist for us now in the twenty first century, but did not exist in the first half of the twentieth century. The way in which the civil rights movement has book our avoidance mechanism for us not taken. We african americans possible. This Glenn lowery, nobody's gonna, agree with. It is part of what makes me a conservative I'm tired of the bellyaching, I'm tired of the excuse me why supremacy it is, in my mind, a joke. I lament the fact that that kind of rhetoric is so seductively attractive to african americans, and so widely adopted by others

and as I am fond of saying at the end of the day, nobody is coming to save us. I mean higher education, mit caltech, Stanford, the where the future is happening. That is about mastery over the achieving of human civilization, such as they manifest themselves in the twenty first century, is no substitute for actually acquiring mastery over. The material is no substitute for that to beat patronized to have the standards lower. They want to get rid of the test that they want to tell african american

the paris on the head, we're going to have a separate program for you. We're going to give you a side door that you can come into that doesn't make us any smarter, though it doesn't make us any more creative and it doesn't make us any more fit for the actual competition that is unfolding before us. Now, you want to be ten percent, If the population is carried along for the next hundred years, you want to be a a ward of the state in the late twenty first century. You go ahead because the chinese are coming. You're, not gonna hold them back. The world is being remade every decade by new ways of seeing and new ways of doing if you don't get on board with the dynamic advancement the civilization in which we are embedded. You're gonna end up being dependent on other p.

But to look kindly upon you in this story that you ve got this belly ache. This excuse, my friends, ancestors were slaves, only gonna work for so long? So that's that makes me I suppose, kind of conservatives. I hate affirmative action. I don't just disagree with. It are not just think it's against the fourteenth amendment. I hate it It comes from an understanding that it is a band aid that is as a substitute for the actual development over the capacities of our people to compete at much rather be in the position of having them. Try to keep me out because on so damn good, like they're doing the asians, then having them, have to beg the supreme court to allow for a special dispensation on my behalf, because they need diverge

city and inclusion and belonging it's not just diversity, is not just diversity and inclusion is diverse. Inclusion and belonging. I'm whining because I feel like I don't belong, that's a position of weakness. It's pathetic and it's only political correct, that case, people who can see this and believe me, a lot of people can see it from saying so out loud. So you want. The black american community, represents strength. Correct, and I want us to deal with what it is that we have. The deal with in order to be able to project strength in an increasingly competitive world. Let me ask you, I know you said your angry or dislike affirmative act, Let me ask you something they even to my ear cut wrong. Now, I'm relatively apolitical

so uh, president Biden, when he was running for president, gave a campaign problem. Stay here now made a black woman to the? U s supreme court, saying quote. Personnel will nominate, will be sown, with extraordinary qualifications, character, experience and integrity for sons, second sense, and that person will be the first black woman ever nominated to the united states supreme court. Wish. He only said the first sentence and not the second. Yes, I wish tat. He had only said the first sentence even if his intention was to do what he said, he was gonna do in the second sentence, runway I wish TAT he had simply said The opportunity now need someone to the supreme court. It's gonna be a superbly qualified person to carry out their position and he might have kept to insult his intention.

To name an african american woman to that position and then gone ahead and named an african american woman to that position, and I'm sure that catan g brown jackson- I don't doubt that she is exceptionally qualified. She has a distinguished career. She served as a judge on the casey circuit court of appeal, she's a graduate harvard law school. She has a background you do not have to be. A world class constitutional legal scholar to get onto the united states supreme court. Of members of the united states. Supreme court have had different kinds of legal career, before they were elevated to that position a year and of the famed warren one of the nineteen fifty cent sixties was a politician. As well as a leading jurists and what not I mean many kinds of people in the? U s programme. I have no doubt that judge catastrophe jackson is qualified member to be on this particular. I wish that

I had not done what he did. He could have just appointed a black woman saying that he was limiting his considerations, the black women, what our black women as a percentage of all potential appointed to the supreme court in three percent Four percent, I'm gonna. We can look to number up the by saying that it It's an asterisk on the appointment, but it's worse than that because she will, I lived down the asterisk if a person is inclined to do that, she will have the opportunity to show, through her performance exactly what kind of jurists she is just as justice, clarence thomas has shown through his performance that he was. Qualified and more than qualified to be on the united states supreme court. What I dislike was the pandering. He was seeking votes from black people by pandering to us and they

treating us like children. Why should I care what color the person is who's on the united states supreme court? What I should hear about is what kind of opinions to gonna write we know that unites. Do I suppose that be black woman means that you're gonna write different kind of opinions, some others? Well, perhaps perhaps that kind of identity politics at the highest level of american legal establishment, is something that really we very much the wrong way what I should care bout is the nature and future of the law and am actually struck by this. Because of the court is conservative. It has six conservative members on it, and it has three liberal members on it. If I were- and I'm not a liberal Democrat

the highest concern that I would have about an appointment to the supreme court is. Is this a person who is going to be a active in advocating my liberal views within the highest com, of american law now the fact that that person is a woman risible Person is weighed down the list of the things that I would think are important too. Kinds of opinions that are going to write. So I mean, I think Joe Biden. This is it's a piece of a larger political strategy to cobble together a coalition that will be successful at the polls in sustaining democrats, Jim crow, two point: oh this whole characterization of the conflict at in the states about elections.

Ready and voting rights is another part of that strategy. He is pandering to black voted. He is China frighten us thinking that, the republicans when our rights will be taken away, and I think it is infantilism vision of african american politics? I think black people are not the beast is concerned about the color of this. And of a person who is serving in government as they are about the content of their character and the focus of there of their political and ideological orientation, which for me would be so or even centre right, but that's me That should not have a significant impact. Nevertheless said she can overcome the asterisks, but to to muse deeply disrespectful

that anyone would given extra asterisks deaf to overcome, he didn't have to say it all. He had to do was do it. If you want to put a black woman, not the court, they could said and done it the reason he said it is because he wanted black people to vote for him by saying it, and I'm saying that treats us like with children I know it's not a political statement. I just thought is a leader that was not those those kind of disgusting I let me ask you are Thomas saw you mentioned him, he's a colleague and somebody who's an influence. What ah, in the space of ideas, so would broadly What impact as he had, I knew ideas, How do you think he shaped the landscape of ideas in our culture in general? I think thomas

well he's in his nineties. Now he's been around for a long time. He still got it he's still going at it. He's still gone, edit books continue to come out. I think he's a great man, I think thomas ol, regardless of is raised, his black is one of the one hundred most significant economists of the twentieth century He has chosen as his subjects a substantial part of his subjects, subject to investigate the deep causes and consequences of racial disparity of one kind or another he's ridden fundamental books about that. Many of them is a social philosopher, he is an economic historian. He is a combated in the conflict of ideas around how to think about society in this beyond racial differences. Other race has been a big part of.

Is written about he's been critical of affirmative action and he didn't just stand. Back in the wag his finger, he got busy looking at the consequences of affirmative action in society. Is all around the world is ready books about that. These been critical of the narrative about civil rights in a rational and quality. He believes in small government. He doesn't think that efforts to redistribute income have proved to be the solution to the problem of racial disparity, Tom, not been honoured by the committee that hands out nobel recognition in economic science and probably won't be because is controversial, and I reckon that that committee would be lowered to encourage the blow back that they would be sure to receive if they would, good, controversial and politically focusing expressive black conservative in an honour in that way, so I think another

and is that time as a methodology, methodological matter is not especially quantitative. He pays attention the data, but he doesn't do statistical analysis yes and he doesn't do modeling so from a methodology point of view is that a cutting edge kind of mathematically sophisticated qualitatively statistically oriented pretty, does descriptors stuffy rights in style, that is much more like social historian, that it is like my go mathematically and analytical economists, on the other hand, as an economist than those chicago school milton friedman enjoyed stickler prominent amongst his teachers who takes price theory, which is the Analysis of the interplay of market forces are mindful of incentives

and so on, in all implement the basic in size from economic us. I you there is no free I mean there's always gonna, be a cost, anything that you do and so on. People respond to a sentence ankara, slope, downward in competition, since the where best, when people are free to enter and not, and so on I mean that kind of thing, but tom is also a social historian of the suffer in the tradition of the friedrich phone hayek wanna times books deeply admire knowledge and decisions is an extension of the high. In arguments about the limits of central planning and one that song I think time, saw Thomas all Can american born as understanding in louisiana raised in new york city graduate of harvard college

a military veteran, a the economics from the university of chicago, a black conservatives, social scientists of very high, Tat, I think he's a great man and one of the great intellectuals of the twentieth century and you're, saying implicitly deserves a nobel prize yeah. I do think so I mean I the wounded by the committee gonna merit. All the swedish economists wrote about economic development, wrote a famous. Two volume work and american dilemma about the status of blacks and may I think Tom could be you know, put in their company variously been unaided. A great day or common them, so it doesn't have to be in psychology, ninety calmness, Eleanor Ostrom, the political scientists who was In a joint prized given to her and oliver williamson fifty

years ago, or so he could be put in a company really quite easily. I'm asking you mention obama in this in the very getting there. We were talking about. How do you feel that sees it forever go? Then two thousand eight barack obama became president at that time. Perhaps you identify the conservative already, but how? so put politics aside and do this in general and how did? How did it feel that in one hundred and fifty years where this country has come along, Well, yeah, I didn't I didn't identify in two thousand and eight is a conservative. To the same extent do today I was, I was kind of in transition. Yet again

and I was excited by the obama candidacy at first I was skeptical because, after all he's not black. The man's father is a kenyan in the man's mother is a white american and he identifies as black. I find it interesting that black president of the united states, and I could put inverted commas around black and the first black vice president, the united states, either of them descend from american slaves commonly Harris's father is of african ancestry, impart he's a jamais in or mother hazard, indian emigrants. She was common harris raised up largely in cash.

The born in the united states, Barack obama is, as I've said, of mixed ancestry, and neither of his parents are the descendants of of american descendants of african slaves. But blackness is flexible. It's it's It's something that you can put on, or you can take off to a certain degree for some people and so be it I was excited. Our time is come hope and change We are the ones we ve been waiting for. These are slogans from two thousand and eight. I can't believe I bought that crap how interesting. Let me push back here. You talk to

it's a mean to me: a Jews adieu, skin color, his skin color. I mean he brok obama's black when it matters when you're talking your white supremacist yeah. When you're talking to you Slave owner he's black, just like you said one hitler comes around A jew is a jew, doesn't matter how you identify, does What so in that sense, don't you think that Barack Obama is black in the most powerful ways, which is dignity. How far the I'm? Ok, the doktor king vision, oh sure, and look out. I said it a little bit tongue in cheek. Yes, yes of course, but I think obama

has been very careful about manufacturing. A kind of public precise that is intended to position him in the most effective way. You may like every power. Politician yeah like every politician sure The racial identity, peace is an aspect of that I mean anything I say it would only be speculation, because I have no facts about the personal history of morocco bamiyan. I accept Barack Hussein obama as sailor eclipsing I said, I'd, take him at his word about whatever she was talking about. Why was he a christian, I think, is what the the question was, and there was some right wing attack on obama for having been raised in for some years in the philippines and

Love that our indonesia, I beg your pardon indonesia, indonesian, his stepfather and all of that, but she took him at his word and I take him at his word. About his racial identity. No, I was captivated by the power of his words and you regret to the degree you were captivated by. I mean I think in retrospect that whole campaign looks like a pie in the sky kind of fairytale. We are the ones we ve been waiting for. I can quote exactly that speech that he gave a grant park unchecked. Go when he was announced as the winner of the election, but today is the day that, The rise of the ocean stop lou words. To this effect, I mean those who doubted that we could do it. That tonight is your answer. This was gonna be a new day was gonna, be a new regime. Well, it wasn't today and it wasn't a new regime. It was american politics

more or less. As usual. Barack Obama turns out not to be the messiah. Maybe there should be no surprise in that race. Relations got set back during obama's tenure might be, for obama. Is that you, okay, you're black? You say: you're black you're black, you got elected. Now we have a black president, a black president. You can do stuff that nobody else could do you're a black president. You could tell the people burning down the city to get their butts back in their houses and to stop it. You could tell the race hustlers dal shopton, so the world not only has our time com for those who put him on my campaign, yet I'm is over for the one a carrier and I a advocacy, rooted in racial grievance, the

Election of myself to this high office proves that the institution of the state are legitimate and open to all comers. I think broccoli when the I t hit the fan, I had a sunny look like craven. I deeply regret that he said that he is present. Of the united states, the color of his skin and the color of travel and skin the correlation between those two things that I have Sonny look like trayvon, though he says when he said it, He only meant to sympathise with the parents, but in fact, when he said it from the highest office in the land, and this is a attorney general Eric hold her out to enforce this narrative. He doubled on a racial narrative. Tat, I think, is actually false. I think the story that

stomach racism in america as reflected in policing that terrorize his black people, because of the color of their skin, is demonstrably force. I think that the central threat to black lives is violent crime perpetrated largely by black people against others. People, I think there is such a thing as police brutality and I think there are reasons to have regulations a police. But I think it is a second order issue in terms of the quality of life of african americans, I think obama could have told the people who, after freddy gray, died in police custody and van in baltimore and who'd, undertook to burn that city down to get there. As is off the street and go back to their parliaments and stop it? I think it could be said in the aftermath of Michael brown being shot dead by daring wilson in fergus. Missouri and there was a grand jury

deliberation that elected not to indict officer wilson and people took the streets in that city and stood on top of vehicles and so forth and so on. He could have told them we don't mob around court houses in this country? We respect the rule of law, get your bus off the streets in back into your parents. He didn't do that, so to push back a little bit. Yeah good pushed back her. I think you're asking Barack Obama the first black president of the united states to do the thing that I think should be done by the sun. Black presently. Those days, I think, is very example, given the color. Skin was the most powerful thing and I actually doing some of these hard, thomas, all type of fog, landlord type of

strong words about race. It may be too much to ask given the nature of modern day politics, a key as a politician, he is politician in the arm, get elected he needed to get reelected here. It is his second term, where most of what I'm talking about happened, so he wasn't facing further election. But obama was what forty six forty seven when it was so inaugurated, He served for eight years, so he sent his mid fifties he's gotta, half century or forty years alive, god willing his pulse presidency I it was what was primarily on his mind, not getting elected to anything but and shrines in a certain way and then at the the precise that he is now embodying which depends upon. A racial narrative that I in time a soul and others. Objec too, I think, was very much in the forefront.

Of his mind when he made decisions as the chief executive officer of the country that we have all now have to live with yet. But the fact is here open the door in a way that hasn't been done in the history of of of this, the united states that I don't see there being a ah, even a a significant discussion when an african american, a black man or black woman, runs for president a black man, let's say There has been a woman president, I just see that broke open the possibility that the value that discussion and that that example by itself I mean to me the role of the president- is in just policy.

Is to inspire it's to do the yeah. It's is to do the doktor king thing, which is I have a dream and brought a bomb as examples of either could give one hell of a speech it got. Totally obama is smooth operate without any question is a master of his crafty and I did the impossible beat Hillary Clinton in their primary fight and we german came in a general election and hats off, to him and moreover, he remains a a iconic figure in american culture. I don't think there's any doubt about that. Let me just mention clarence thomas is also black. Clarence Thomas has story that is a vivid and inspiring just like obama story overcome obstacles. Just like album. Did. I mean extreme poverty and so forth and saw class.

Mrs served longer than any other member of the united states supreme court. He is One of nine justices and its three equal branches- the government so class thomas by my arithmetic, personifies one twenty seventh of the american state. He is an iconic figure, his Example should be an inspiration to americans of all races, but especially a black american youngsters. He happens to be conservative. He very conservative so fucking. What he too deserves to be in that if he is not by the custodians of american education. Clarence thomas name is not on that. Many schools brake on the promise name will be on. Many of them are not equating them their different people. The offices are very different, but the same logic that you just you

to extol the significance of a brac obama's ascendancy could and should be applied to clarence thomas. In my opinion. Yes, but you know it's the office but asked There is a resume razumihin, there's accomplishments but then there is oratory and charisma and a number of twitter followers. Ah so there's ability to captivate a large number of people and that's a skill, that's a skill that correlates, but is not directly connected to with how impressive erasmus I agree, and, moreover, the judicial function. The judge doesn't go out and give speeches of that sort because it's exactly antithetical to what the what he's doing

custodian of the law and that's not a popular feature. Figure in american policy done stand for election and it's a good thing too. So I take that point here. I want to say something else, though: that's provocative the next black didn't you say first by president shouldn't, have been won. The do that at the second wish. It is more likely to not going republican, I'm not! I don't have a curricular person in mind. I'm just saying I agree. I agree, I agree and that's what it's gonna be super fun lemme ask you to put put on your wise sage hat and give advice the young people. So, if you're talking to somebody who's in high school and in college, what advice You give them about their career about life in general. How to live a life. They can be proud of. Well I'd say the word. Is your oyster mean first order?

you're, not a victim. I care what color you are I'll, kill you male female gay straight whatever the world is waster, you are so privileges, city on the united states of america, free country, rich country. Everything is possible for you believe me, you can do anything, ok, Secondly, I would say mastery over The medium in which were embedded is the key to the future, so get educated focus work hard. You know, invest in your future by acquiring the skills that you need to be able to navigate the twenty first century. I would say the chinese are coming, and I don't mean anything against china. I just inside the world's a small place and it's getting smaller and you know you you better get moving any better, get moving quickly. I'd say your identity

coloration your orientation, you you're you're category is not the most important thing about you that so The temptation to limit yourself, I give this speech to my my kids. I say I quote james joys he has a passage in Portugal, artists as a young man in which he says. Do you know what ireland is? Ireland is an old sal that each her fairer, MRS Joyce, he says: stephan daedalus is the character that he has in mind in this chronicle. He says: you're ethnic in here

she's. Talking about irish nationalism are like nets holding you back, that your challenge is to learn, how to turn those nets into wings and thereby to fly, came flying into the open skies of modern society. Don't be your grandfather, dont, be your father. Don't wear your things so heavily that it keeps you from being open to everything, that's new in the world where it lightly as everybody comes from somewhere, but it doesn't have to be where you end up, so you you're, not your father, you not your grandfather, you are this wonderfully blessed human being, in the middle of going into the middle of the twenty first century and don't miss it does the dawn. Don't live, blinkered tlie that dont this small live bait.

Lived bay again now, where your history lightly year, thereby he's got a mother. Everybody's got a story, everybody has a people, but the world is a small place. I love that you quoting an irishman. One of the greatest writers of the twentieth century, a profound one but I should nevertheless that the levels of humor within that it is not lost on me. Let me just mention the great ralph ellison. The african american invisible man is his masterpiece. Embodied despair,

Okay we black americans, we do come from somewhere that come from somewhere from slavery in america. That's our ancestral heritage, but that's not what we are skin and bone. These are superficial things, the spirit and if I were a more religious person, I could give a whole disposition. That by its the spirit, this that light, that's inside, that's that's who we are and our challenge is to live in the fullness of it as opposed to this blinkered. Think. What we don't look like. We don't look right. We would just fitting within this template that we inherit, that is a travesty really Then you ve lived an incredible life, a productive one for just representing some powerful ideas, some powerful ideals, but life comes to an end here. Do you think about your death? Are you afraid of it.

Well, it is a really interesting coincidence said you'd pose me that question. Because I'm coming from a funeral today is sunday on the preceding tuesday. Five days ago, I was at the funeral of eugene wesley smith, who was my brother in law. He was my sister's husband. My sisterly. In that the way in august of twenty twenty one, her husband has died at the age of sixty eight in April of twenty twenty two- and I was at his funeral he died suddenly of a heart attack that came completely out of the blue. He seemed to be imperfect. Health.

He was a magnificent human being. I could go into the details, but you know take my word for it. He was a business man, steel, trade, metals trader. He would buy and sell. Are you what, mostly from his home office? He had clients, counterparties, people this with all over the world. He had three sons, one, home, is in his early thirties, two former and their late thirty caesar my sister's children's she's decease, now he's deceased. The order to sign and are severely developmentally disabled and although there and there lay thirties that they are not independent. The viable they dont function effectively to be cared for that spawns ability has now fallen to the family, but mainly the surviving son lives and with his wife and his two young children

and as assume the responsibility they carried at home. My sister and her husband, Wesley eugene, was psmith care for their disabled. Signs at home. They didn't want to see them. Institutionalized has some help from programmes at this. Aid and social workers so on, but they mainly took on the burden of caring for them at home Anyway. I go on at length here, and you know I don't know how much of this you will choose to make use of it did doesn't. Matter really I'm just trying to respond to your question Asked too I offer some remarks at the funeral and I offered them it, and I you know I I spoke well of this great man. He was a great man. He has straight back He was a stand up guy. He could be counted on. He is where was his body? He had broad shoulders. He carried a lot of people with him. Business associates, family members and so

and so on. He had a huge heart. He was a giving and kind person. He had a great mind. He was an intellectual, even though, as a businessman, much of his day was taken up with the baby you know, minutiae of contracts in all the details, the order being delivered in that being delivered of the quality of the product of the financing and software that there were still a power for mine there, The aim is a powerful mine and he studied he read books. He was instead, music and art he was is a spiritual seeker. Had been ordained as a child minister in his youth and while he remained a master of the christian cannon. He also explored eastern religion in other spiritual, pass and kind of stood above. Any particular tradition is a man,

evening god, but that god manifest himself in many ways to human beings and that there was much to learn from other religious traditions as well. This is wesley we caught him wesley by his middle name. Eugene Wesley smith may rest in peace. Sixty eight That's five years younger than I am right. Now you drop dead without any warning. I could do so You feel well were the thoughts in your mind, leading up to it having to give that speech in the day their followers. I wondered what would I say: where would I say- and you know there was no way to prepare- and I decided in I We heard, to my mind this. You know your straight back yet brought showed, He had a big hardy at a great mind. You know yet I capacious speed. And why not- and I use that as a template for making my remarks, but my main thought was, my life is precious and life is fleeting and death is a part of life.

My death is a part of my life and I you know. Well, I want to take better care of myself than I do. You know et cetera, et cetera, but I also thought this is not in my hands at all. I thought once of his affairs in order my brother did not have all of his affairs in order in the sense that there is a lot of things are going to probing There was no will there's. You know this is kind of unsettled. I dont want they happened to my surviving family men. I want to have my affairs such that, should Heaven forbid all over one day and don't get up again. People don't have scramble about how to how to take care of things. From from that point forward as a human, are you afraid. No I'm afraid now I read this wonderful book called the swerve. It's it's about lucretius, it's about the nature of things, which is this great

classical work from the roman period by this guy lucretius. And I'm trying to think of the name of the author, but you can look it up. The swerve is the book at one like a national book. Water pulitzer prize is in its the history of the red, covering of this book ah by one of these italian renaissance italian people who would go into the monasteries in central europe and looked through the squirrels, and they discover these class. Cool works from antiquity which had been lost through the dark ages and they re ree publication and and read this eggs and lucretius is great. Work on the nature of things was one of these books, polio. Back linear come, I don't remember the italian guy's name, but this could be looked up: poor joe broccoli, fifteenth century fifteenth century in the name of her

The author is steve, green black. Yes, stephen group like a magnificent book and are in a two a terrific story. Anyway, one of lucretius points. He was an atheist army. He was a roman I He didn't believe in mysticism any end: and they argued its irrational to be afraid of death. Why should I fear death death is coming all of us the point of being afraid. I I'm wasting my time fearing something that I have no ultimate control over its irrational, be afraid of death. Yeah because it can predict what happens You only know that it happens. So why be afraid, that and therefore live everyday fully live everyday purposefully. You know and so on, but these are all just words in our eyes. I don't want to die, I want to

forever. I'm not gonna live forever I don't want to. I don't want to suffer. I see people suffering us, late. Wife, linda dat, your lowry, doktor Linda you're lowery professor of economics, at tough university, whom I met and good just school at mit black woman from baltimore. We marry we these two sides. Together she died at the age of fifty nine from metastatic breast cancer and I was to suffer and I watched her die and it took awhile and weak for her at home. Right up, the very and she died in our bed. With our sons on either side of her in the dark curled up by the by the door? The porch in the bedroom and she expired. And I watched her suffer and I watched her die and I dont want to suffering. Who does I don't want to die I am likely to suffer before I die.

I am likely to see my death coming into lamented there's a by richard John new house, the theologians. As I lied as I lay dying as I lay dying richard John new house, he had stomach cancer and he thought he was dying and he wrote this book ass. He lay dying in any recovered. He had a when I went into remission and he had another couple years- eight I was dying and he had another couple years and I can member meeting him at a bookstore in suburban. Austin when he was on a tour his a friend of mine, a theologian in public intellectual founded. The institute On religion in public life in new york city was still this region John new house eddies.

Contemplating his own death from the point of view of a christian minister, he was first, the lutheran pastor and any converted to catholicism or ass. He would have put it. I returned to the church because he thought the rent france was over. I mean I'm sorry. The reformation rich about was, research is only one church in out seldom get into theology stuff here, but I'm saying all had to say I read that book aloud to my wife, linda as she lay dying in that bed. I read that book and it was filled with hope. I mean it first acknowledged the dread. Yes, I I dying. I don't want to die. I'm a christian minister crisis rays from the dead I'm supposed to believe it. Everlasting life, but the fact of matters this is me line here and I'm dying. This is the end of me. How are you gonna do any

other than dread. The end of me. So, let's acknowledge that I don't want to die. Ok, I'm just gonna tell you that up front, but that is not the end of my death is not the end life I have lived well and fully. I will go and do my best right up until the end. I will accept what is inevitable. And I will hold out disbelieve and he's a christian minister, so he holds out this believe any known in those that they believe is not rational. Its a reasoned deductive, scientific conclusion, its spiritual than that most fundamental way. It is something that people hold on to and they have hope- and he had hope. Don't know if I have that hope I used to be, but I am no longer A christian in and the longer a fierce thrill,

yeah. I am would Lucretia their main it there's. No nothing! There is no magic. What's gone on here. There's no, you know unseen hand behind the same. That's arranging things! What I've got it is when I look at the natural world. I see, I see the evolution of the species. I see the organic development of the of the planet's I mean the earth. Going to not exist in a final, number of years. I think, with very high probability. This is gonna die is going, You know implode. It's going to go supernova or whatever is going to happen, and it's not going to be any there there for the meaning of life Glenn larry meeting, That was the. Why? There's something economists, and our social scientist mathematicians inadequate to answer, surely you know I think we

If we try to live well in meaningfully within our time we banned, we reproduce we try to pass on, and We accept our limitations and are mortality. We try to contribute and that's to our children and, through our work, and we're in this together- we're not in this alone. We we are connected to other people, and I get a lot of gratitude out of teaching. I'm a teacher. My students are going to outlive me they're gonna have students, I'm a writer, my maria he's gonna. Let me I don't wanna be self important, pretentious I doubt that I'm gonna be the James joy of the twenty first century. They me

I'll be reading my stuff in a hundred years, as people will certainly be reading Ulysses in a hundred years but I try to have an impact on my on on the world that I'm a part of and try to leave a legacy. That's dignified You know I mean I could give some flowery words: it truth seeking and whatnot what about love love, what what? What? What? What role does love play in this I was in his legs and worth around me. Let without love. What have we got We don't have we we don't have family in, and you know We certainly have missed out if love is not a central part of our of our existence, but stop ask any questions like that line. Thank you for doing everything you do for thinking the way you do for being.

Fear, listen bald in in the grand showing your writing in your work and just being clear. Thank you. We're being you and thank you for giving me the huge honor of spending, your extremely valuable time with me today. This was awesome. It's been a pleasure legs and a really- and it has been like four hours man you weren't me out for me, but I love it. Thanks for listening to this conversation, Glenn lowry, to support this by gas felicia our sponsors in a description and now let me leave you with some words from doktor martin luther king Jr. If you can't fly than run you, she can't run the walk. You can't walk and crawl, but whatever you do you to keep moving forward. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.

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