The following is a conversation with kate darling. Her second time in the pot cast she's a researcher does that mit media lab interested in human robot interaction and robot ethics, which she writes about in her recent book, called the new breed. What our history with animals reveals about our future with robots. Kate is one of my favorite people, a mighty. She was a courageous voice of reason and compassion. The time or the Jeffrey Epstein scandal at mit three years ago, We reflect on this time in this very conversation, including the lessons are revealed about human nature and are optimistic vision for the future of a mighty, a university. We both love and believe in and now a cookie second mention of sponsor check them out in a description as the best way to support this bog ass. We got true classic tease for high quality tee shirts shop,

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infrastructure that I just love everything about love it it was. He developed, deploys scale what applications both faster and easier. I use a fur small person projects. I hope to one day have huge projects there can run on it. I think the big competitor is a w us. much of others, but a w s, its law across the aid of EU us better customer service, the simplicity of everything I just love. It are basic computer infrastructure. The compute has to be really good right. The actual systems had fairly good the distributor computers be good, but the interface from a user perspective of high. You said everything up. Are you scale of that kind of stuff? Also.

I think that's actually more important the ability to set stuff up to monetary all that kind of stuff, and that's really why I love Linode and of course, the number one reason or should I say the number zero reason is or that is linux. I love linux. All things: linux visit, linode, dot, com, slash legs to get one hundred dollars in free credit. The show is also brought to you by inside tracker service I used to track biological data. They have a bunch of plans. that collect the bunch of information from your body and you machine learning, algorithms to analyze your blood data dna data. Fitness tracker did all of that. To give you a picture, what's goin on asylum, and give you recommendations for diet, lifestyle changes,

I wish to give like dating advice or career advice, or just like food advice. What I should do today, based by that's, probably the future A body is giving me very noisy signals about, one is hungry and what it was to eat. I wish I had higher resolution signals were like the signals that its funding needs to be interpreted there's probably a lot of signal. There is just my brain is too dumped and interpreted. So I would love to understand what my body's telling me. That's why I love his head tracker is that it's listening to your body, c, to give you advice about what you should do said. Body gets special savings for a limited time. When you go to insight tracker dot com, slash legs, the show is also brought to you by express vpn. I use them to protect their prowess and the internet I also use them to feel good about my life.

That's because I have a strange relationship with software that really well designed anyway, it's like a good, we believe, should be its fast worse and aid of ice, including linux, android, all that good stuff and its base level protection that everybody should be using a probably having a bunch of conversation with subsequent folks on both It's am think I have a person coming on that that used to be an f b. I agent doing cyber security and also really want to get a bunch of hackers on former current hackers will be epic, of course, and it's very difficult because

as if their current hackers there's this gray area about what they can and can't talk about, and they don't like gray areas. I like people to be raw and transparent unreal, all that kind of stuff, but no matter what it's a super fascinating topic: go to express, vpn, dot com, slash slugs pod for an extra three months free. This is Alex Friedman, podcast the supported we should get our sponsors in the description and now, dear friends, here's kate darling hm hm. Last time we talked a few years back, your justin bieber sure for the pike s not looking back your respected the researcher. All the amazing accomplishments in robotic

You're an author. Was this one of the proudest moments he life? How proud as decisions you ever made definite. you handle it really. Well, though, it was cool because I walked and I didn't know you were gonna, be filming then in your fucking suit here and I'm like. Why are you all dressed up here? and then you were so nice about it. You like made some excuse. You're like oh, I am interviewing some are didn't you say you were interviewing some military general afterwards to lake. Oh yeah. Those make me feel better, ceo of lockheed Martin. I, though, that's what it was yeah. and tell me oh, I was dressed like this or you're an actual bieber fan, or was that, like one of those t shirts, that's in the back of the closet they use for painting? I think I bought it for my husband as a joke, and he I was. We were got renovating at the time and I had worn it to the site, got his joke. Now you were ok. Have you wanna since this one time

now like? How could I touch it again? It was on your pod. Cardiovascular reigns as they wedding dress is on like that. his: he don't you only once you are the author of the new body it's what our history with animals reveals about our future with robots. You open the book with the surprisingly tricky question: what is a robot? So let me ask you: let's try to sneak up to this question. What's a robot, that's not really sneaking up. It's just asking it. Yeah, alright, walk. what do you think a robot is? What I think robot is is something that has some low. Of intelligence. Some level of magic. A little shy, and I know that allows you to navigate the uncertainty of awe of life. So that means I got thomas

It cost me in that sense our robots because they navigate the uncertainty, the complexity of life. Obviously social robots are that I love that. I like that you mentioned magic cause. That also was there first of all, I don't define robot definitively in the book, because there is no. There is that everyone agrees on and if you look back through time, people have called things robots until they lose the magic because they're more ubiquitous, like a vending machine, used to be called a robot, and now it's not right. So I do agree with you that there is this magic aspect that that that which is how people understand robots. If you ask robotic. They have the definition of something that is what it has to be. Physical, usually, is not an agent; it has to be embodied the

it has to be able to send its environment in some way it has to be able to make a decision autonomously and then act my environment again. I think that the pretty good technical definition, even though it really breaks down when you come to things like the smartphone, because the smartphone can do all those things and most We're not called a robot, so there's really whom no one good definition, but part of why I wrote the book is because people have a definition of robot in their minds? That is usually very focused on a comparison of robots to humans? So if you, Google image search robot, you get a bunch of humanoid robots, robots with a torso and head and two arms and two legs, and that's the definition of robot that I'm trying to get us away from, because I think that it trips us up a lot. What is the humanoid form troubles applaud. Well because this constant comparison of robots to people artificial,

hoddan to human intelligence first, nor does it make sense from a technical perspective, because the early I researchers, some of them, were trying to recreate human intelligence. Some people, still are in. There is a lot to be learned from that academically etc, but does where we've ended up. Ai doesn't think like people, we wind up in this fallacy, where we're, where we're comparing these two and and where, when we talk about what intelligence, even as we're, often comparing to our own intelligence and then the second reason this bothers me is because it doesn't make sense I just think it's boring to recreate intelligence that we already have. I see the scientific value,

of understanding our own intelligence. But from like practical, what could we use these technologies for perspective, its much more interesting to create something new to create a skill set that we don't have that we can partner with whom we are trying to achieve, and it should be in some deep way somewhere to us both in most ways different because you still want to have a connection, which is why the similarity might be necessary. As those people argue yes- and I think that's true so that your arguments for humanoid robots are people needs to be able to communicate and relate to robots, and we relate most of the things that are like ourselves, and we have a world spoke for human, so we have stairs and narrow passage ways than door handles, and so we need humanoid robots to be able to navigate that, and so you are speaking to the first one, which is actually true, but what we know from

actual robotics and lot of human robot interaction. Researchers that you all needed something that enough, like a person tat fit for it to give off cues that someone relate to and that, but that doesn't have to look human or even act human. You can take a robot like archie d, to end it just like beeps and boots, and people of art he too great, even those just like a trash, can on wheels and they like archie dealing more than three p o, whose humanoid so there's lots of there's lots of ways to make robots even better than humans in some ways and make us relate more to yeah it's kind of amazing, the variety of cues that can be used to anthropomorphized, being a glowing orb recent, like that, he has just a voice, just the gis servicing interaction I think people sometimes over engineer these things, like simple

if you can go a really long way totally. I mean ask any animator and they'll know that yeah yeah those are actually so the people behind cosmo the the the row the right people to design those animators ike disney, tapir people, yet verses like roboticists or bars quote, are mostly clueless it says that they just have their own discipline that their very good at and they didn't dont. Have you ever that? The don't don't I feel able bodies of the early twenty first century is not going to be. There are bottlenecks in the later twenty first century. I give you call yourself or about this has to be something very different. How cause I think more and more you did maybe, like it

control, trawling, junior, something controls engine like you separate, because, ultimately, all the unsolved all the big problems of robotics will be- social aspect in the interacted with humans aspect, the per cent, interpreting the world aspect in the brain part, not the not the, not the basic control of a part. You can't be thick, it's actually really complex is very, very complicated, and that's why put like. I think you still write and and and what a time to be alive, because for me I just weave, robots for so long and they ve just been behind the scenes and now finally, robots are going deployed into the world economy out of the closet, yeah and were seeing all these mistake that companies are making because they focused so much

engineering and getting that right and getting the robot to be even be able to function in a space that it shares with the human see. What I feel like people don't understand is to solve the perception control problem. You shouldn't try to just solve the perception control problem. He should teach the robot how to say: oh shit, I'm sorry I fucked up yeah or as for hell or for us for help or be able to communicate the uncertainty yeah all those things because you can solve the perception could draw, we humans have been solved it. We will really damn good at it about. Would then the magic is in the south, deprecating humor and Of awareness about were flaws are all that stuff, yeah and there's the whole body of research. inhuman, robot interaction showing like ways to do this, but oh

We've companies? Haven't they don't do a tour. I they, like the have you seen the grocery store robot in the stop and shop. Yes, yeah the marty. It looks like a giant penis. That's like six feet tall roamed, the aisles. I will never see Marty the same way again. Thank you. You're welcome, footlight, They they these poor people, were, though, a hard on getting a functional row via together, and then people hate marty, because they didn't at all consider how people would react to meridian. Space. Does everybody me talk about this to do people mostly hate marty, because I, like a like my eye, maybe you like lilies, be yard and actually like this, this approach between the two,

I believe there is, though we were actually going to do a study on this right before the pandemic hit, and then we cancelled it because we didn't want to go to the grocery store and neither did anyone else, but our theory said this was with a a student at mit Daniela de payola. She noticed that everyone on the face- back in her circles was complaining about marty there like what is this creepy robot is what it means it was in the way- and she did this like quick and dirty sentiment- analysis on twitter, where she was looking at positive and negative mentions of the robot, and she found that the biggest spike of negative mentions happened when stoppage and through a birthday party for the Marty robots like with free cake and balloons lake who complains about free cake, well, people who hate marty apparently. So and so we were like that's interesting, and then we did this like online pallaby used mechanical turk, and we tried to get at what people don't like about marty

and a lot of it wasn't. Oh marti's taking jobs, it was marty, is the surveillance robot, which is not. It looks for spills on the floor. It doesn't actually look at any people it. Watching his creepy is getting in the way. Those were the things that people complained about, and so our hypothesis became his marty, a real life clippy, because I know what you love clippy, but many people hated could be or this complex thing there like marriage. Alot of people seem to like to complain about marriage, but they secretly love it, so it could be the thoroughly keeps you might have with the with marty. Is lake there. He goes again doing this stupid surveillance thing, but you grow to love the I mean bitching about the thing that kind of releases, a kind of tension and

cause, I mean some people. A lot of people show love by sort of busting each other's chops. You know like making fun of each other and then, if, I think I think people really love if Marty talk back However, unlike these are so many possible options for human. when you go mean in you can blame as someone agent of the cia monitoring your every move like marking people their concern, you know a thing like. Yes, I am watching you because you're so important with your shopping patterns, I'm collecting all this data, or or just you know, any kind of making fun of people. I dunno when I think you hit on what exactly it is because when it comes to robots or artificial agents, think people hate them more than they would some other machine or device or object, and it might- and it might be that thing might be come

with lover like whatever it is, it's a more extreme response because they view these things as social agents and not objects, and that was so clifford now asked was a big human computer interaction person and he his theory about clytie, was that because people viewed clip is a social agent when clearly was annoying and would like bother them in it. damn, unlike not remember what they told him, that's when people get upset because it wasn't fulfilling our social expectations, and so they complained about could be more than they would have it if it had been a difficult, not and not in a virtual character, so is coming I need you assign nowhere in the wrong path with a particular robot, or is it possible lake again, like marriage

a family there? There still is a path towards their direction where we can find deed, meaningful relationship. I think we absolutely confine deep. Meaningful relationship was moored, robots and well, maybe with my I mean I just- would I would have design Marty a little differently now, there's no charm to the clumsiness, the slowness, there is like you're not trying to get through the shopping, cart and screaming child, you know, there's, I think I think you could make it terming. I think there are lots of design tricks that they could have used and one of the things they did? I think without thinking about it. At all, as they slap too big googly eyes on Marty and I've, I wonder if that contributed. Maybe two people feeling watched because because looking at them and

So like is there a way to design the robot to do the function that its doing in a way that doesn't that people are actually tracked it you, rather than annoyed by their many ways to do that. But companies are thinking about it now there realising that they should have thought about it. Now I wonder if there's a way to avoid help to make marty seem like an entity of its own verses The arm of the large corporation, so there's some sense where this is just the camera. That's monitoring people verses. This is an entity that stand alone entity. It has its own time and heads has its own personnel of the more personality, give it the more. It feels like it's, not sharing data with anybody else like when we see other human beings are basic assumption is.

Whenever I see to this human being is not like being immediately send to this year. Yeah. What I say to you: no one's gonna hear that rate not hope. Will you forget it? I mean you do forget it an arrow if that, even with microphones? Here you forget that that's happening, but then, for some reason I think probably would Marty. I think one has done really crudely and crackly. You start to realize all this is like pr people trying to make a friendly version of a server. Balance machine, but I mean I remind me of the slight clumsiness or significant. this on the initial releases of the avatars for the murderers wit What are your actually thought about that. the way the

guitars. The way like mark Zuckerberg looks in that world. You know the in the meadow verse, the virtual reality world, where you can have like virtual meetings and stuff like that, like how do we get that right? You have thoughts about that it's a kind of it's a. It is if you like, a similar problem to social robotics, which is highly design. A digital virtual world that is compelling when you connect others there in the same way that physical connection is right, I haven't looked into. I mean I've seen people joking about it on twitter, unlike posts, whatever yeah, but I mean have you seen it because it it there's something you can't quite put into words that doesn't feel genuine yeah about the way it looks as though the question is, if you're an hour to meet virtually. What should the avatars look like for us to have similar kind of

connection, should be really simplified. Should it be a little more realistic? Should it be? Cartoonish should be more better. Capturing of expressions in interesting, complex ways, verses, I cartoonish over simplify, was I haven't video games figure this out. I'm not a gamer, so I don't have any examples, but I feel like theirs is the whole world and video games where they ve thought about all of this and depending on the game, they have different like avatars, and a lot of the games are about connecting with others. I guess the thing that I dont know is again. I have looked into this at all. I've been like shockingly, not very interested in the meadow, but they must have ports. How much invest into this matter and big. Why? Why is it so? Where people, why is it so bad

you're gonna, be a reason. There's gotta be some thinking behind it right. Well, the comment about this, such a giant carmack, whose part time oculists see tee o. I think several things to say: one is, as you probably know, that the military bureaucracy, there's large corporations, and they often large patients have a way of killing they indeed color artistic flame, that's required to create something really compelling somehow they make everything boring z. They run through this whole process through the

our department through all that kind of stuff, and it somehow becomes generic through that process, because there's strip out anything interesting because it could be controversial. Is that er yeah right exactly like I like what I mean we were living through this now like with the with a lotta people, with cancellations on those kinds of stuff, people are nervous nervousness results in turkey usual the assholes, ruining everything but the magic of human connection, taking risks of making a risky joke of of of like with people you like who are not assholes good people like some of the fun some of the in the matter verse or in video games, is now being edgier being interesting, revealing your personality. Interesting ways in the sexual

anshan or in, although they're definitely paranoid about that. Oh yeah, like in metaverse the possibility of sexual assault and sexual harassment and all that kind of stuff. It's it's obviously very high, but there are so you should be paranoid to some degree, but not too much because then move completely pressed the personality of the whole thing. Then everybody is just like a vanilla bought that, like you have to have ability to be either but political to be a little bit edgy all that kind of stuff and large companies tend to suffocate them so I, but in general, to forget all that the ability to come up with a really cool, beautiful ideas. If you look at tat, I think grimes pleased about this critical about the matter is that you know the independent.

I again designers have solved this problem of how to create something, beautiful, interesting and compelling they. they do a good job. So you have to let them kinds of minds, the small groups of people, design, things let them run with it. Let them run wild and do edgy stuff yeah, but would otherwise you because you get this kind of you get a clippy type of situation, re, which is like a very generic looking thing, but even clippy has some like that's gonna, while the you would take a paperclip and put eyes on it, Many people are like oh you're annoying, but your definitely a socially and I just feel like that, wouldn't even that cluppy thing wouldn't even survive. Microsoft or facebook of today matter of today gazelle believe what they'll be these meetings about wise

why don't? We is not sufficiently friendly, let's make it you know, and then all sudden. The artist that with whom it originated, is killed, it's all pr marketing people and all of that kind of stuff. Now they do important work to some degree, but they kill the creativity. I think the killing of the creativity isn't like okay. So what I know from social robotics is like, obviously, if you create agents that are okay to take for an example that you'd create a robot that looks like a humanoid and it's you know Sophia or whatever. Now suddenly, you do have all of these issues. Where are you reinforcing an unrealistic beauty standard? Are you objectifying women? Why is the robot white so you have? But the thing is. I think that with creativity you can find a solution. That's even better

where you're not even harming anyone and your creating a robot that looks like not not humanoid but like something that people relate to even more and now you don't even have any of these biased issues that your creating, and so how do we create that within companies? Because I don't think it's really about like cause? I you know, maybe we disagree and I dont think that edginess or humor- or interesting. Things need to be things that harm or hurt. People are that people are against. There are ways to find things that everyone is fine with. Why are we doing that? The promise, there's departments that look for harm and things yet, and so they will find harmon things. I have no harm, thou guy, that's the big problem, because their whole jobs define harmon things so will you said, is completely correct, which is edginess should not hurt, doesn't necessarily does need to be.

that. Hurts people did obviously great humor grades. Personality doesn't have do I a What yeah I mean it, but it's tricky to get right now. I'm nice, you sure I don't know. I don't know why large corporations, the lot of funding can get this right. I do you think you're right, that there is a lot of aversion to risk, and so, if you get, lawyers involve their people whose job it is like you say, ten mitigate risk there just gonna say no to most things that could even in somewhat yeah yeah. You get the problem in all organization, so I think that you're right. That is a problem I think. What's the word All that in large organizations is deaf, Steve jobs that are characters are forcing. You do need to have. I think, from a designer purse, maybe like johnny I've. That is almost like a diktat. You want a benevolent dictator area who roles in answers like

cuts through the lawyers, the pr but has a benevolent aspect like yeah, there's a good heart and make sure I think all great artists and designers creates stuff. Doesn't hurt people like. If you have a good heart, you going to create something, that's going to actually make a lot of people feel good. That's what like replied johnny I've. What they love doing is creating a thing. That brings a lot of love to the world. They imagine millions of people using the thing in it install some with with joy. That's that you could say that brussels robotics, you could say that about matters, it shouldn't be done. by the pr people should be done, but his eye. I agree. Pierre people run everything all the fun in the year in the book you a picture this. I just have a lotta ridiculous questions. You have a picture of to hospital livy robots with a caption that reads by the way. I see your book appreciate that it keeps the

and you didn't run by the yard. The partners now, no one edited the book rushed through the thing the capture reads to hospital. Robots whose sexy nurse name Roxy lower, made me role my eyes so hard. They almost fell out what aspect of a major role here Is it the naming naming the form factor is fine. It's like a little box on wheels the fact that they name them also great that'll. Let people enjoy interacting with them. We know that even just giving a robot a name, people wall, it facilitates technology adoption people will be, Oh you Betty made a mistake with help her out. Instead of the stupid robot. Doesn't work but why lonely in low loan roxy like those are to you to sexy? I mean there's room. Search showing that a lot of

about our named according to gender. Biased, is about the function that their fulfilling so robots or helpful, and assistance and early nurses are usually Male gendered, robots, debtor, powerful, all wise computers, like watson, usually have liked. Booming, male coded voice, The n name so like what I like. That's one of those things right, you're, opening a can of worms for no reason for no reason you can avoid this whole can just give it a different name like why roxxxy is because people aren't even thinking so to some extent, I don't I don't like pr departments but getting some feedback on your work from a diverse set of participants listening and taking in things that help you

identify your own blind spots, and then you can always make you're good leadership choices and good, like you can still ignore things that you don't believe or an issue, but having the openness to take in feed, back and making sure that you're getting the right feedback from the right people. I think that's really important, so don't on the surly propagate the biases of society, yeah, why in the design? But if you're, not careful the when, when you do the research of like you might, if you ran a poll with a lot of people of all the possible names, these robots, have they might I'm up, but Roxy low was as as names deal it would enjoy. Most like that could come up as far as the highest. Then you do marketing research and then we'll that's what they did with alexa. They did marketing research Nobody wanted the male voice. Everyone wanted it

be female. What would he? What do you think about that? I what I needed, if I, if I were to say, I think the role of a great designer again to go back the giant is to throw out the market research he like take it in do learn from it. But like if everyone wants a luck set it to be a female voice, ro, the designers, to think deeply about the future of social agents in the home and think like what is that future locally? and tragic reverse engineer that future psych in some says there's this we tension like you want to listen to a lot of people, but the same time you want to be creating a thing that defies the future of the world. And the people that you're listening to our part of the past so that we're tension yeah, I think that's true and I think some companies like apple

have historically done very well at understanding among yet and thing you know what our role is not to listen to what the current market says is to actually shape the market and shape consumer preferences and complex companies have the power to do that. They can be forward thinking and they can actually shift what the future of technology looks like, and I agree with you that I would like to see more of that, especially when it comes to existing biased ease. That we know are- or you know that that I think there's the low hanging fruit of companies that don't even think about it at all and aren't talking to the right people and aren't getting the full information and then there's companies that are just like doing the same thing in and giving consumers What now, but to be really forward looking and be really successful. I think you have to make them judgment calls about what the future is. Gonna, be. Do you think it's still useful to gender and to name the robots? Yes, I mean

gender is the minefields, but people I it's really hard to get people not gender, a robot in some way. So if I'll, give it a name or you give it like ambiguous voice. People will just choose something, Maybe that's better than just lake GAB new entrenching something that you ve decided as best, but I do think it. It can be helpful on the lake anthropomorphic. Some engagement level too,. Give it attributes the people identify with ya. I think it a lot. About is this. I know they they dont gender, the robot iran. They even try to avoid naming the robot naming it ain't, something that is- can be used as a name in conversation kind of thing, and I think that actually that's irresponsible, because people are going to anthropomorphized the thing

so you just removed from yourself the responsibility of how they're they're going to to anthropomorphized, not the good point, and so like you want to be able to make like they're going to do it yet start to think about how they're going to do even if the robot is like a boston dynamics. Robot, that's not supposed to have a kind of social component took obviously going to projectoscope the component to hear that that arm. I worked a lot a lot with quadrupeds. Now it was with robots dogs that arm people think is the head immediately, yeah suppose, vietnam they start to think ahead and yet, like acknowledged that you can't now leads you now that you know what they ve deployed. The robots and people are like. Oh, my god, the cops are using a robot die,

Instead, they have this pr nightmare, and so there, like, oh yeah, ok, maybe we should hires the major right people while wasn't nourishes initiative, com or any of the others, are doing something big. is there. Their means for some money is arm in the industrial applications like surveillance of factories and doing dangerous jobs so to them, is almost good pr for people to be scared of these things. Because it's it's for some reason. As you talk about, people are naturally for some reason: scared they talk about that of robots and soul. It because more viral like playing with that little fear, and it's it's almost like a good pr, because ultimately, there not trying to put them in the home and have a good social connection, the trying to put them in factories they they they have fun with. If you watch boston dynamics, videos yeah,

aware of it? Oh yeah, there out of the videos pressure David out. It's almost like an unspoken tongue in cheek. Then there are aware of how people going to feel we have a robot that does like a flip number So the people are just like excited about the control problem of it and I caught her how to make the whole thing. Happen but their aware, when people see why think they became aware I think that in the beginning they were really really focused, unjust engineering I mean they're at the forefront of robotics, like locomotion and stuff and then, when they started doing the videos, I think that was kind of a labour of love. I know that the former ceo mark, like you, we saw a lot of the videos, mean a lot of them himself and like he's even really detail. Oriented like there can't be like some sort of incline. That would give the robot

vanished, the very like he. He was very um hum of integrity about the authenticity of them, but then, when they started to go viral, I think that's when they started to realize. Oh there's something interesting here that you know I don't. I don't know how much they took it seriously in the beginning, other than realizing that they could play with the. The videos. I know that they take it very seriously. Now we're like above us dynamics and some welcome Is it still mostly run by engineers wide enough I've had my criticisms, there's a bit more. Pr leaking in, but that those videos are made by engineers because that's what they find fun hm psych testing, the robustness of the system. I mean they. They're having a lot of fun there with the robots totally, have you been

Have you been to visit, yeah, yeah yeah, it's cool is one of the most incur guy I am, I think, as I have. Robot dies. Now you have eight roma as well as the walking around you please like me, I'm working on them. That's! Actually one of my goals is. To have at any one time always arise by moving how from far left an ambitious goal would have liked more room was, I know, to do from their programme The programme will rumours and a bunch of little like about the I'm not finished with the butter robot from rick and morty as that much of robots everywhere. But thing is that what happens is your on one robot time and that because the whole project, its actually very difficult to have just a passive

The functioning robot always moving yeah and, as a that's, a that's a dream for me that I'd love to create that kind of little world. So the the impressive thing with the boston dynamics to me was to see like hundreds of spots and like there's a the most impressive than that still sticks with me is There was a spot robot walking down the hall, seemingly wooden supervision whatsoever and he was wearing here. She Elinor was why a cowboy had just images down the hall and paying attention is just a walking on this. Long haul, unlike Looking around Is anyone like what's happening here, sir? presumably some kind of our measures doing the map. I mean the whole environment, probably while mapped but eight it was just a gave me a pig

a world where a robot is you're doing this thing would probably have gone the hall like giving some coffee whatever, like I dunno, what it's doing what's the mission, but I dunno for some reason really stuck with me. You don't often see robots that are part of a demo or that you know like us, with a semi autonomous autonomous vehicle leg, directly doing a task. This was just children, yeah walkin around well, yeah. You know I mean we're at mit like when I first got to mit. I was like okay where's, all the where's, all the robots, and they were all like broken or not, they're going so yeah, and and and what really excites me is that we're about to have that whereabouts of so many moving wrote about to war is coming

coming in our lifetime that we will just have robots moving around were already seeing the beginnings of it. There's delivery robots in some cities on the sidewalks, and I just love, seeing like the tick talks of people. Reacting to that, because yeah you see a robot walking down the hall with a cowboy hat like this is awesome and scary and kind of awesome and people either love or hate it. That's one of the things that I think companies are underestimating, that people will either love a robot or hate robot and nothing in between, though it's just again an exciting time to be alive yeah. I think kids almost universally, at least in my experience, love them a lot, love legged robots if they're not lap. My my son hates the rumor, because ours is loud all that year. Nor would the legs the legs boyfriends, because I

is, that your son did they understand rumored to be a robot. Are you my kids, the first worth a lot? They noticed a beep boop and, yes, they think the room as a robot does the project well just such a thing, but we don't really use it around them any more for the reason that my son is scared of it yeah, that's really what I think like even a room, because It's moving around on its own and kids and animals view it as an agent. So what do you think if we just look at the state of the art robotics? What do you think robots actually good at today to have a look at today? You mean physical robots, yet physical robots, why like woody impressed by say, I think, a lot of people in this way. You book is a buzz, maybe a not a perfectly

the braided understanding of. Where we are in terms of robotics was difficult, embodies, was easier about a clear where behind where people think we are so what's impressive So let's see oh one, one thing that about recently- was amazon as this new warehouse robot and it's the first autonomous warehouse robot tat can is safe for people to be around and so like. It's kind of most people most people. I think, in vision that our warehouse deserve already fully automated and that there's just like robots doing things, it's actually still really difficult to have robots and people in the same space, because it's dangerous for the most part, robots and because especially robust that have to be strong enough to move

something heavy. For example. They can really hurt somebody, and so until now, a lot of the warehouse robots had to just move along like pre existing lines which really restricts what you can do and and so having. I think that that's that's one of the big challenges and one of the big like exciting things that's happening. Is that we're starting to see more cobalt x in industrial spaces like that, where people and robots can work side by side I'd and knock it harms. Yes, what people don't realize that the physical manipulation task with humans is not the robots want to hurt? You I think that's what people are worried about like this model, robot out of its own and was to destroy our humans knots in all its actual difficult to know whether human is here and there part of the human and dynamically and collaborate with emma task, especially if you're something like

an industrial robotic arm, just extremely powerful cereals. This summer. The some of those arms are pretty impressive. Now that you can just he can in grab it, you can move it. So the the collaboration between human robot in the factory setting is really fascinating. Yeah and do you think they'll take our jobs. I don't think it's that simple. I think that there's that kind of disruption, that's happening and will continue to happen. You know, I think, is speaking civically of the amazon warehouses. it'd be an area where it would be good for robots to take some of the jobs that are. You know where people are put in a position where it's unsafe and they're treated horribly, and probably it would be better if a robot did that and amazon is clearly trying to automate that job away. So I think there's going to be a lot of disruption. I do think

that robots and humans are very different skill sets. So, while a robot might take over a task, it's not going to take over most jobs, and I think just things will change. A lot

It's like one of the examples I have in the book is mining, and so there you have this job that is very unsafe, and that requires a bunch of workers and puts them in unsafe conditions. And now you have all these different, robotic machines that can help make the job safer and, as a result, now people can sit in these like air, conditioned remote control stations and like control, these autonomous mining trucks, and so that's a much better job, but also they're, employing less people now. So it's it's just a lot of, I think, from a bird's eye perspective you're not going to see job loss, you're going to see more jobs created because that's, I think the future is not robots just becoming like people and taking their jobs. The future is really a combination of ours.

Skills and then the supplemental skills that that robots have to increase productivity to help people have better safer jobs, to give people work that they actually enjoy doing and are good at? And but it's really easy to say that from a birds eye perspective- and I ignore the the rubble on the ground as we go through these transitions, because, of course, specific jobs are going to get worse if they. If you look at the history of that century seems like automation, costly, his productivity and improves. the average quality of life. So it's it's been always good. So, like thinking about this time being different is ITALY would need to go against the lessons history is true, and the thing is, I think people think that automation is a physical tasks is easy,

has a house just in ukraine and the interesting thing is. I mean there's a difficult in dark lessons: justin a war zone but Well, the things that happens in wars there's a lot of minds that are placed as this was one of the big problems for years after a war is even over. Is the entire landscape is covered in mud and so you there's a de mining effort and you think robots would be good if this kind of thing or like your intuition, really well, see you have unlimited money anyway, good job of it. Unlimited money you'd get a lot of and ass robots, but no is humans, are still far superior for animals and animals, but even write what humans with animals together yeah. You can do so is your dog with a hat,

I but yes and put figuring out also how to disable the mine. Obviously the easy thing, the thing a robot can help with is to find the mine and blow it up, but that cannot destroy them, escape that that that really does a lot of damage the land you wanted to disable the mine and to do that because of all the different all the different edge cases of the poor one requires a huge amount of human. Like experience, it seems like so it's mostly done by humans. They have no use for robots, they don't want robots yeah. I think we overestimate what we can automate in the especially in the physical realm yeah. It's it's weird. I mean it's continuous. This is the story of humans. We think were shitty at everything in the physical world, including driving with ink everyone.

Makes fun of themselves and others for being shitty drivers, but we're actually kind of incredible incredible and that fly like that. The way tesla still says that, if you're in the driver's seat, like you, you are ultimate. responsible, because the ideal for I mean you know more about this than I do, but he like robot cars are great at predictable things and can react faster and more precisely than a person and can do a lot of the driving and then the reason that we still don't have autonomous vehicles on the roads yet is because of this long tail of just unexpected for instance, where a human immediately understands that the sunset and not a traffic light. That's where's. The carriage ahead of me on the highway, but the car is never encountered that before a stoic in theory, come combining those skills that is what's gonna, really be power. the only problem is figuring off the figuring out the huh.

robot interaction and the hand off so like in cars that the huge problem right now figuring out the hand off- but in other areas it might be easier and thats really. The future is human robot interaction was really hard to improve its it's. It's terrible that people dying car action but I mean it's like seventy. Eighty hundred million miles, one death per, a eighty million miles. That's a really hard to beat for a robot that the thinking credible that he like think about it, like the how many people think just the number of people throughout the world they're driving every single day. All this that you know sleep deprived, think distracted. All of that and still very few die while others. What our magic power to guess back in the horse, save what I was like in the end,

the twentieth century. Writing my horse, our talk so much shit about these cars of this game is extremely dangerous. These machines traveling at thirty miles an hour or whatever the hell they are going at. This is irresponsible, it's unnatural and, and it's going to be destructive to all of human society is extremely surprising how he was adapt to the thing, they know how to not kill each other. I mean that at ability to adapt is incredible and to mimic that in the machine is really tricky. Now that said, what us, as do many, I wouldn't have guessed How far machine learning can go on then alone? It's really really incredible, and people that are at least from my perspective people there I'd he no critical of airline and those efforts. I think

I don't give enough credit to how much progress will miss him, how much incredible progress has been made in that direction. I think most of the this committee wouldn't have guessed how much you can do and vision alone. It's kind of incredible because would be, I think, it's that approach which is relatively unique, has challenged the other competitors to step up game, so few using light or refusing mapping that challenges them to do better to scale fast, and to use machine learning, computer vision as well to integrate both light. Our vision? So it's of incredible and an I'm, not I'm no favour and have a good intuition of how driving is anymore. Maybe it is possible to solve.

all the more necessary mention. Yet the question is one year. I think it's not happening as quickly as people thought it would, because it more complicated, but I wouldn't know I I agree with you. My current intuition is that we're gonna get there. I think we're gonna, get to when I didn't before sure we're gonna get there without, like with current technology, You know I was cut. This is like the vision alone. I intuition was you're, gonna have to solve a common says, reasoning, you after have some of the big problems in artificial intelligence, not just not just perception yeah, You have to have a deep understanding of the world s most my sense, but now the site, like was not me, I'm could do, is surprised how other thing works

yeah, I beseech you on and others others have stopped, but young continues. and I say we're going to solve it in a year. The other thing involved bold prediction, though yeah, but everyone else seems to be doing that, but and I will enable us- not progress- are going to solve level for dry by twenty twenty? Let's, let's chill on that, will be blocked. trying silently, I mean the uk justs committed hundred million pounds to research and development to speed up the process of getting autonomous vehicles on the road. Like everyone is everyone can see that it is possible and is going to happen, is gonna change. Everything and they're still investing in it, and like way. More loki has driverless cars in in arizona I. U can get. You know, there's like robots

Where have you ever been one now is so weird, it's so awesome preserving the most also experiences is the wheel turning you're sitting in the back. It sake its. It feels like your passenger with that friend. It was a little crazy, the driver. Now it feels like shit, I don't know you write a driver of that kind of feeling goods, but but then you can on that experience that nervousness, and the excitement of trusting other being in this case. The machine is really interesting, just even interest back in your own feelings about the thing yeah they are not doing anything in terms of making you feel better.

I know way now. I think they want, with the approach of like less, not try to put eyes on the thing was it's it's a it's a wheel. We know what that looks like this is just a car. It's a car, getting the back. Let's not like discuss this at all. Let's not discuss the fact that this is a robot driving you're nearing the back. They have. The robot was the star driving emails on our raw run off the bridge. Have no recourse, that's not discuss this. You just get in the back. There's no discussion about leg out she can go wrong. Does no eyes is nothing. It is like a map showing what the car can see Like you know what happens if it's a girl, how many thousands situation like us, I'm sorry. I can't you a button you can like call customers service. Oh then, you can put on hold for two hours, a problem

but there are currently what they're doing, which I think is understandable, but the car can pull over and stop and wait. or helped arrive, driver common and actually drive a car for you, but that's ache in a word, if you bleed For meeting or all that kind of stuff for like them are disturbing, isn't the fifth element where its well smith, and whose in that maybe no resource bush was, I am, and he gets into like a robotic com. supercar or something, and then because he's violated a traffic rule it locked him in and he has to wait for the cops to come and he can't get out. So like we're going to see stuff like that, maybe with us, I I I believe that the companies that have robots Though the only was there were succeed are the ones that don't do that

they respect privacy, even though yeah, because people, because because they're gonna have to earn people's trust. Your button Amazon works with lime forest men and gives them the data from the ring cameras. So why should it yeah yeah? Do you have a ring camera on the okay, though? No, but the basic greater camera right, I've Google's wherever they have. We have one. That's not! The data at least are the data on a local server, because we don't want. To go to law enforcement cause all the companies are doing it. They're doing. I bet ethelwyn. he only company. I trust- and I know how much longer, I see- maybe that's true for cameras, but with robots

it didn't people just not going to let a robot inside of their home, where, like one time where somebody gets arrested, because of something I wrote cs. That's gonna be there's gonna destroy accompany you. Don't think we're going to be like well that what happened to me that happen to a bad person. They think they would. Because in the modern world people I get any seem twitter they get exe. Freely, paranoid about any kind of surveillance, thing that I've had to learn is that twitter is not the modern world like one go. You know inland to visit. My relatives like they don't do that. The different discourse that's happening, acting like the whole time criticism world yeah it's loud in our ears because we're in those circles do you think you can be a company that does social robotics and not one over twitter. That's a good question I feel like the early adopters on twitter

give to win them over his acknowledges. You have to win over tik tok on us Is that a website? It paints a check it out in that connection, Why? Because china is behind on exactly so compelling enough, maybe people would be able to give a privacy, and that kind stuff. That's just I mean I'm worried about it, I'm worried about it and I'm there have been some developments recently that are like super exciting, like the large language learning models like while I do not intend to pay those improving so quickly and it those are going to change everything, and one of the things that I'm trying to be cynical about is that I think they're gonna have a big. Impact on privacy and data security and, like manipulating consumer,

in manipulating people, because suddenly you'll have these agents that people will talk to you and they won't care or no at least conscious level that is recording the conversations so kind like we are talking about before and at the same time the technology so frickin exciting that it's gonna get adopted with those of the collection did. But the ability to manipulate at scale so what do you think about the way? The engineer? Google adds the thought lambda sentient, yet actually get proposed from somebody ass. I forgot her name is brilliant. I can't believe I didn't know butter thanks again yeah from weird day I oh yeah, I love her book. She she's great. I left a note for myself to reach out to her she's amazing larry, some brilliant and just a great summarize of the state of hiv. She has, I think, those from her

I was looking at, I explained, there's a squirrel. I am because that script that the engineer released lambs a kind of talks about the experiences. Human, like feelings than I think even consciousness, and so she was like a cool restive, I wonder if I can also described the experience of being a squirrel and fishing interviewed. I think she did jpg three about the experience of being squirrel and then she did a bunch of other ones too, like what's it like flock of crows, what's it like being an algorithm, the powers, a timber and lake, you can have a conversation about any if things then they're, very convincing, yeah yeah, even gpg, three, which is not like state of the art right, it's convincing being a squirrel, it's like what what it's like, I usually just check it out, cause it

really is again. It probably is what a squirrel what the fuck are. You excited like. I was like being a squirrel fun. I argued that it need not thrown around all day like how do you think people feel like when you tell them that you're, a squirrel you're, like I forget what it was like. A lot of people might be scared to find out squirrels and, like this and this is the man answers pretty pretty well a guy. I hope like what do you think the when they find out your squirrel, I hope to see her it is to be a police data, people who don't believe your dear I as they can see for yourself a perfect lambeth Cora this correct. I think it's really great, because it it lake the two things

to note about it or, first of all, just because the machine is describing an experience doesn't mean it. Can it actually has that experience, but then, secondly, these things are getting so advanced and so convincing at describing these things and talking to people that I mean just the implications for how education, communication, entertainments gaming, I just I like all of the applications mind boggling what we're gonna be able to do with this, and that my kids are not remember a time before they could have conversations with artificial agents. Do you think they would, because to me this is on the folks in the Acme has been well. The engineer shirley's hallucinating. The thing is not sentient, but to me I foresaw, would it doesn't if he is not, this is coming

yet where a large number of people would believe a system of censure including engineers within companies. Yet us in that sense you started but a world where, like your kids, aren't just used having a conversation with a bot for use. Believing canal having an imply believed that the thing is censure yeah. I think that's true, and I think that One of the things that bothered me about all of the coverage in the tech press about this incident, like obviously I don't believe the system is sentient like I, I think that it can convincingly described that it is. I don't think it's doing what he thought it was doing and actually experiencing feelings, but a lot of the tech press was about how he was wrong and depicting him as kind of naive, and it's not naive, like there's so much reason

to my field, showing that people do this even experts they they might be very clinical when they're doing human, robot interaction, experiments with a robot that they ve built, and then you bring in a day Robot and there like having fun it's doing this thing that happens in our lab all the time we are all Well, this guy and it's going to it's going to be huge, though I think that the the goal is not to discourage this kind of belief or like design systems that people won't thinkers engine. I don't think that's possible. I think you're right this is coming is something that we have to do. knowledge and even embrace and be very aware of, one of the really interesting perspectives that your book takes: honest The mike. This is you see them not to compare system like this to humans, but compared to animals, of how we see animals key,

try to again sneak up, try to explain why this analogy is better than the human and g, the analogy of robots as animals yeah and his gets trickier with the language stuff, but he will get into that too, and I think that animals are are really He thought experiment we're thinking about ai and robotics, because again this comparing them to humans. That leads us down the wrong path, both because it's not accurate, but also, I think, for the future. We don't want that. We want something as a supplement biting animals, because we ve used them throughout history. For so many different things. We we domesticated them not because they do what we do, but because what they do is different and that's useful and it just like whether we're talking about companionship, whether it how about work, integration with a we're talking about responsibility, harm. They just so many things we can drawn in that history from these entities that consent think me.

Economists, decisions and learn that are applicable to how we should be thinking about, What's in the eye, and the point of the book is not that they're the same thing that animals and robots are the same. Obviously there are tons of differences there like you can't you can't have a conversation with a squirrel right but the the point of it all the time are really by them. Squirrels acutest. I project so much ass, squirrels I wonder what their inner life is. I suspect there much bigger assholes than we imagine I I like it was a giant squirrel, you'd fuck you over so fast it had the chance. We'll take everything you own. It would be all your stuff because small and the fairy tale. The is a is as a weapon against human consciousness and cognition a ones is over. This will continue to carry out our computers

Walls and dogs lick the dog, the dogs have love cats or have no soul. They I'm just kidding people get so angry. I talk shit about cats that I love cats anyway, so you're you're you're describing all the different kinds of animals that get domesticated and it's a really interesting idea that it's not just some pets, there's all kinds of demand, guess. I'm going on. There have all kinds of uses yet, like the ox that you propose might be at least historically one of the most useful domesticated animals. It was a game changer because it revolutionized like what people could do economically etc. So I mean just like robots they're, going to change they're, going to change things economically, A change landscapes, like cities might even get pre built around autonomous vehicles or drones or delivery robots lead. I think, just the same way

is the animals of really shifted society and society, adapted also to like socially accepting animals as pets. I think we're going to see very similar things with robots. So I think it's a useful analogy is not a perfect one, but I think it's. It helps us get away from this idea that robots hand showed her will replace people. If you remember what are some interesting uses of animals ferrets, for example, I had a fair it for you. They still do this. These ferrets tat go into a narrow space is that people can go in do like a pipe or like, though, using the run electrical wire thing to do that for princess dies wedding there. So many weird wave or at work we ve then the and still use animals for things that robots. Can't you like the dolphins there that they use them In the military I think there I think russia still has dolphins and the? U s dollars dolphins in their navies.

Tom was mine, detection looking for less underwater equipments, some rumours about Using them for weaponry its, which I think russia's like sure, but leave that and America's like nano we don't have who knows, but they started doing not, unlike the sixty seventies research training, these dolphins, because they really go Dozens of this amazing echolocation system that we can't replicate with machines and their train of also we're gonna use them for all the stuff that we can't do with machines or by ourselves, and they ve tried to phase out the dolphins and others It's just like invested a lot of money and trying to make robots. Do the mine detection, but, like you were saying, there is some things that the robots are good at and there's some things that biological creatures are better, as they still have the dolphins, so there's also pigeons. Of course we have pigeons on my gosh there's so many examples. The pitch I mean.

the pigeons worthy original hobby photography drone. They also carried mail for thousands of years, letting people communicate with other in new ways thought the thing think about the animal analogies. They have all these physical abilities, but also sent. thing abilities that we, just we don't have and like that's, that's just so useful and that's that's robots right robots have physical abilities. They can help us lift. Thanks are due things that were not physically capable of. They can also sense things It's just there. I just feel like. I still feel like it's a really good analogy and neutral, and it works because it's people are familiar with it. What about companionship? And when we start to think about my cats and dogs and pets, I seem to serve no purpose whatsoever except the social connection. yeah, I mean it's kind of a newer thing

at least in the united states, like dogs used to have like they used to have a purpose. They used to be guard dogs or they had some sort of function and then at some point they became just part of the family and- and I it's it's so interesting- how there's some animals that we've treated as workers, some that we've treated as objects, some that we eat and some that are parts of our families and that that's different across cultures? And I am convinced that we're going to see the same thing with robots and where people are going to develop strong emotional connections to certain robots that they relate to either culturally or or personally emotionally, and then this can be other robots that we don't treat the same way. I wonder: does that have to do more with the culture and the people, the robot design as the interplay between the two I quieted dogs and cats out compete,

what else like farm animals due to really inside the home again said our hearts yeah. I mean people point to the fact that dogs are very genetically flexible and they can evolve much more quickly than other animals and thirty evolutionary biologists think that dogs evolved to be more up, going to us and then once we learned how to breed them, we sort of breeding them to be more appealing to us, too, was not something that we necessarily. We were able to do with cows, although we ve bread them to make more milk for us, so it, but part of it is also turning their cultures where people eat dogs still today and then there's other cope cultures. Where we're like up. No that's terrible. We would never do that and so I think there's a lot of different elements. That plan, I wonder, is theirs exactly understand dogs. They use their eyes are able to communicate it

Action all those present things really interesting dogs. Do these conferences in dog, cautious some cognition and how that kind of stuff. Now cat is a mystery to me. as they seemed to not give a shit about the human, but they are warm and fluffy, and but they, but they are also passive, aggressive, so they're at the same time, like their dismissive of a view, in some sense, anthem. People like that like that about people where they were they want to push and pull over a relationship. They don't want loyalty, year, unkind, no love letters. That means they have an earned area. Maybe that says a lot more about the people than it does about the animal yeah. We all need therapy yeah. So I'm judging harshly the people that have cats or are the people that have dogs, maybe the people that have dogs need.

They are desperate for attention and unconditional love, and there are unable to us to arm to serve struggle to earn me for connections not enough. Maybe people are talking about you. Robot pets in the same way yeah. That's us! It is kind of sad there's just robots everywhere, but, as I mean I'm joking about being sad cause, I think it's kind of beautiful. I think robots are. beautiful in the same way, the pets are even children in that, like a cat, some kind of magic of social robots they have the cap. I seem to have the same kind of magic of connection I know what that is like when they brought him if they move around the way they make me feel, I'm pretty convinced,

is, as you know, they will make billions of people feel I think, I'm like some weird, robotic scam. Not I mean you, our, but not in this way and others for the minute I just I can put on my like normal human hat, and you see the though this is like, there's a lot of possibility there of something cool. Just like the dogs What is it why we saw into dogs or cats like? Is that its way different than us. It is a sick, drooling, all over the place of his tongue out and say what you think, a weird sure they used to be a wolf. Why we into this thing, we'll dogs can. either expressed or mimic alot of emotions that we recognise- and I think that

big thing like a lot of the magic of animals and robots is our own self projection and the easier it is for us to see ourselves in something and project human emotions the qualities or traits onto it? The more will relate to it, and then you also have the movement. Of course, I think that's also really that's why I'm so interested in physical robots, because that's, I think, the visceral magic of them. I think we're I mean, there's, there's research showing that we're probably biologically hardwired to respond to our time movement and our physical space, because we ve had to watch out for predators or whatever. The reason is, so animals and robots are very appealing to us as these autonomously moving things that we view as agents of objects,

I I love the moment, which is I have been particularly working on, which is when a robot like the cowboy hat is doing his own thing, and then it recognizes you, I mean the way dog. Does it looks like this and that the moment of recognition you walking sit seaward, airport on the street and those just hundreds of strangers, but then you see somebody you know, and that lake will you wake up like that exist. meant of seeing somebody, you know and saying hello and all that kind of stuff. That's a magical moment, my god, I think, was pressure. The dog it makes you feel noticed and heard and and law ike. Somebody looks at you recognize you that, to that how does the exist hey if you've yeah and that's a curfew,

and I honestly think, before, passing the buck, keeping oh yeah totally currently alexa mean what one of the downsides of these systems is. They don't there's servants, they, like a part of the you know, they're trying to maintain privacy, I suppose, but he I don't feel seen with Alexa or his staff can change. I think you're right and I think that that that the game changing changing nature of things like these large language learning models and the fact that these companies are investing in embodied versions that move around of alexa like astro god you say here asked for is that I mean it's out, you can't just like by one commercially yet, but you can apply for one year. My gut says that

These companies don't have the guts to do the personalization discuss. So the because it's edgy is dangerous, is going to make a lot of people very angry like in a way that you just imagined: okay, alright, let's do the full landscape of human civilization, just visualize. The number of people are going through breakups right now, just the amount of really passionate steven. If you just look at teenagers, the amount of deep heartbreak that's happening, and I give if you're going to have alexa have more of a personal connection with the human you, gonna have humans, the lake have extra crises, there's a lot of people who suffer from loneliness and depression and, like you are now taking on the fourth possibility of being a companion to that. The fact that the role, of course, of the human condition

as a company imagined pr and marketing people they're going to freak out. They don't have. The guts is going to have to come from somebody from a new apple from those kinds of felt like a small startup and it might yeah like they're coming there's already virtual therapist. There's that replica app, I haven't, tried it but replicas like as grateful companion like it's coming and if big companies don't do it well yeah. I think the neck, the future, the next round, our company will be those personalization. If you think it, if you think about all the the ai will have around us of the the smartphone and so on. There's very minimal personalization. You don't think that's just because they weren't able to really. I don't think at the guts I mean it might be true, but I have to wonder I mean Google is clearly going to do something with the link that I have to cut you challenging them,

partially, but not really, because I know they're not going to do it. I can they don't have to is bad for business in the short term. I'm gonna be honest, like maybe it's not such a bad thing if they don't just like roll this out quickly, because I do think there are huge issues and and there's in not just issues with like the responsibility of like unforeseen effects. On people, but what's the business model and if you are using the business model that you've used in other domains, then you're going to have to collect data from people which you will any way to personalize the thing and you're gonna be somehow monetizing the data. Are you gonna be doing some like add model? It just seems like now suddenly getting into the realm of like severe consumer protection issues, and I'm I'm right

we worried about that. I see massive potential for this technology to be used in a way. That's not for the public good and not I mean that's in in an individual users. Interests may be, but not in societies, interest. Yes, he I think I think that kind of personalization should be redefine how we treat data. I think you should own all the data your phone knows about you like and be able to delete it with a single click mark away and that data cannot be monetized their use, their shared anywhere. Without your permission, I think that's the only way be bored, trust you to give to for you to use that data, but then how companies gonna

I mean a lot of these applications rely on massive trust of data to train the a I system right, so you have to opt in only an opt in, not in some legal. I agree, but avi like show exactly gum in the way I opt in to tell you a secret. Like we understand like that, they have halved choose. How do I know you, and then I say I don't tell us that anyone would have to judge how leaky that, like how good you are. I keep secrets in us. Anyway I gets very transparent and which do

are allowed to use, for which purposes that's what people are saying is the solution, and I think that works to some extent having transparency having people consent. I think it breaks down at the point at which we ve seen this happen on social media too, like people are willingly giving up their data because are getting a functionality from that and then the harm that that causes is on maybe just someone else and not to them personally so utterly people given their data. There not being asked like If, if you are essential, if you were lake, tell me a secret about yourself and I'll give you a hundred dollars. I'd tell you a secret. No, not a hundred dollars for saw you, wouldn't I trust I why you may arise out of them but, like I need, I would ask for your specific, like fashion interest,

into in order to give recommendations you for shopping and be very clear for that. Good disable that you can delete that babies, but then you can be have a deep meaning for rich connection with a system about you think you're fat in will. You agreed in were like the for his chief the things you ve worn whether you regret the justin bieber enjoy the justin bieber sure. All of that information. That's me the private to even you, not even you loved, that a system should have that, then a system, if you trusted to keep control of that, ida that you own you can walk away with. That system could tell you a damn good thing to wear it. Cred and the harm that I'm concerned about is not that the system is gonna then suggest address for me. That is based on my preferences, so I

this conference once, whereas talking to the people who do the analytics and like the big, our companies and weak. literally a woman there was like. I can ask you three. Totally unrelated questions and tell you what menstrual product you use, and so what they do is they aggregate the data and they map out different personalities and different people in them. Affix and then they have a lot of power and control to market to peep so, like I'm not be sharing my data with any of the systems, because I'm like I'm on twitter. I know that this is bad. Other people might be sharing data that can be used against me. Like it's, I think it's it's way more complex than just. I share a piece of personal information and it gets used against me. I think that at a more systemic level- and then it's always- you know

noble populations that are targeted by this low income, people being targeted for skimming loans, or I don't well like I could get targeted like someone not me, because I have some one who doesn't have kids yet and is my age could get targeted for like freezing their eggs and there's all these ways that you can manipulate people where it's not really clear that that came from that person's data. It came from all of us. All of us opting into the butter there's a bunch of sneaky decisions along the way that could be avoided as their transparency, so that so One of the ways that goes wrong. If you share their data with too many add networks, don't run your own had network, don't show with aim Ok and that isn't a regulate, ube, the belongs to just you and

the ways you allow the company to use it, the default This in no way at all and you're cautiously constantly saying exactly how to use it and and also has to do with the recommended system itself from the company. is freezing her eggs. If that doesn't make you happy, if that dear, doesn't make you happy, then the system should I commend it and should very be very good at learning, so not the kind of things that the category of people it thinks you belong to will do but more you specifically. What makes you happy what is helping you grow but you're assuming that people's preferences, unlike what makes them happiest static, whereas when we were talking before about how a company like apple,

Can tell people what they want and they will start to want it. That's the thing that are more concerned about the other is a huge problem, is not just the scene to people but manipulate them into wanting something and that lake we have a long history of using technology, for that purpose the persuasive design and casinos to get people to gamble. More or lake is just I'm. The other thing that I'm worried about is, as we have more social technology, suddenly you have this on a new level lake. If you look at the influence their market, That happens online now, what's influence from mozilla, Instagram there will be some like person. Bunch of followers and then a brand wall like hire them to promote some product and above board. They disclose, like I'm, This is an add that I'm promoting, but they

so many young followers who, like deeply admire and trust them they. Let me this must work for you too. Don't you have like ads on the pod catholic people, travel logic, spoons. ariel low, carb? you say that, like a guarantee use them, people will buy that just because, even though they know that you're being paid, they trust you dear, is developing Well, my particular situation was true for water park, especially big ones is you know, I have ten times more sponsors that wanna be sponsors. Then then, I think it's a selective

if you actually want us support and so like you and abusing it and then you're able to actually like there's no incentive to like a shell for anybody sure and that's why it's fine, when it's still human influence serious right now, if you're, a bot you're not going to discuss crimini you're, not going to be like, oh hell, are using his product skit. For he's using there'll, be like bots, essentially with millions of followers already are? There are virtual influencers in south korea who shall products and and like that's just the tip of the iceberg, because that's still very primitive now, with the new image generation and the language learning models and like so we're starting to do some research around kids and and like young adults, because a lot of the research on like what's okay to advertise to kids and what is too manipulative has to do

television adds back in the day were like a kid whose twelve understands. Oh that's an advertisement, I can distinguish that from entertainment. I know is trying to tell me something now is really really murky with influencers and then, if you have like a bought that that kid is developed, a relationship with Is it ok to market products through that or not like you're getting into all these consumer protection issues, because you're developing a trusted relationship with a social entity, but it's and and so, and so now it's like personalized is scalable, it's automated and it has it. It can so some of the research showing that kids are already very confused about like, The incentives of company versus what the robot is doing, meaning there, though

I cannot deeply understanding the incentives of the of the of the system will yet for like kids, who are old enough to understand this is a television advertisement is trying to advertise to me. I might still decide. I want this product, but they understand. What's going on so there's some transparency. There. Age. Child so did yellow deep. However, as these to a strategy- and I advised on this project- they did this date- they asked kids who had interacted with social robots, whether they would like a policy that allows robots to market to people through casual conversation or whether they would prefer that it has to be transparent. That is like an ad coming from a company and the mature.

he said they preferred the casual conversation and when asked why there was a lot of confusion about they were like well, the robot knows me better than the company does so the robots only going to market things that I like, and so they don't really they're, not connecting the fact that the robot is an agent of the company they're, viewing it as something separate, and I think that even happens subconsciously with grown ups when it comes to robots. In order will agents and it will like this blake guy at Google. Sorry, I'm going on and on, but like his main concern was that Google owned the sentient agent and that it was being mistreated. His concern was not that the agent was going to mistreat people, so I think we're going to see a lot of this year, but shitty companies will do that ultimately that confusion should be alleviated by the roma should actually know you butter and should not have any control from the company. But what was the business model for that?

is, if you use the robot to buy first, the robot should probably cost money. Sheila costs the windows operating system. Does I see more like an operating system then, like this thing, is your window, no pun intended into the into the world. So it's helping you as a personal assistant right and so that should cost money. He should you know wherever it is ten bucks. Twenty bucks

I could that's the thing that makes your life significantly better. This idea that everything should be free is is like it should actually help educate. You should talk shit about all the other companies that do stuff for free, but but also yeah. He in terms of, if you purchased of based on his recommendation. He gets money that says it's his kind of ad driven, but it's not ads. It's a gm and it's not controlled like no. No external entities can control it. To try to manipulate want a thing. Tat would be made its actually trying to discover what you want, so it's not allowed to have any influence, no promoted, add know anything so it at Finding I don't know, that's the thing that would actually make you happy. That's. The only thing cares about

I think I think companies like this can win out. Yes, I think eventually, once people understand the value of the robot, even just like. I think that robots would be valuable to people even if they're, not marketing, something are helping with like preferences or anything like just a simple. The same thing is head like a dog that has no function other than being a member of your family. Think robots can really be that and people would pay for that, and I think the market realises that yet, and so my concern is that companies are not going to go in that direction. At least not yet of making like this contained thing that you bought it. It seems almost old fashioned right to have a disconnected or object that you buy, that you're not like paying a subscription for it's, not like control

one of the big corporation, but that's the old fashioned things that people la yearn for because I think, is very popular. and people understand the negative effects of social media, the negative effects of the data being used in all these kinds of ways. I think I think we're just waking up to the realization we tried if they were like baby deer. Finding our legs in this new world of social media, of ad driven companies and realizing okay, this has to be done somehow different that they, the one of the most popular notions, at least the united states, is social media, is evil and is doing as it's doing bad bias like it's totally tricked us into believing. That is good for us. where I was bad for us inside there's a hunger for other ideas. I read it's time for us to start that company tax must do it

Is this go? Hopefully no one listens to this and steals the idea. There's no see that's the other thing. I think I'm a big person on executions. What matters I mean, His egg ideas, a country with a social bodies, is a good example of that with so many amazing companies that went out of business. I mean to me it's obvious, like it's obvious that there will be a robotics company that puts a social robot on the home of billions of homes. Yet and it'll be a companion. Okay, there you go, you can steal that idea. Do it? Ok, I'm very sorry you what about elon musk's humanoid? Is he going to execute on that That might be allowed to say so, for people are not aware. There's an optimist tests, as optimist robot that some, I guess, the state

the reason for that robot is a humor robot in the factory, thus able to automate some of the tasks that humans are currently doing and the reason you want to do this. The second reason you mentioned the reason you want to do a humanoid robots, because the factories built for the certain tasks that are designed for humans says hard to automate with that and the other four factor than a humanoid? And then the other reason is because so much effort has been put into this job. data and data. Machine of of perception is inside tesla autopilot this seemingly released the machine. If not, the data is transferable. To the factor setting to any setting here is that it would do anything that boring tell it to us yet yeah. The interesting thing about that is, there is no interests and no discussion about

social aspect like I thought I talked to him on MIKE and off mike about it quite a bit and there's not a a discussion about like to me, it's obvious. If a thing like that works at all, at all. In fact, it has to work really well in a factory if it works. Kind of shitty is much more useful in the home because we're much this where I, I think, being shitty stuff, is kind of what makes relationships great like you, want to be flawed and be able to get your flaws in the unpredictable certain ways like if you fell over every once in a while for no reason whatsoever? I think this essential for four lay a charming. Oh, it's

We would also concerning and also lake like I carry. Ok is and he's both hilarious is. What one For some of you, love like fast down. The stairs was both hilarious and concerning its some some data between the two and I think that the central, I, like you, almost won't engineer that in except you don't have to because of robotics in the physical space is really difficult. So I I think I have learned to not discount the the efforts that you does there's a few things that are really interesting there. one because he's taken extremely seriously. What I like is the human rights form the cost, the billing robot oxygen color, or fly about this a lot and curly humor robust

it's a lot of money and the way they're thinking about it. Now, they're not talking about all the social robotics stuff that you and I care about, or they are thinking. How can we manufacture this thing cheaply and do it like well in the kinds of discussions they're? Having is really great engineering? It's like this debate is a first principles. Question of like wisest cost so much like- was the cheap way. Why can't we build and there's not a good answer? Why can we build a humanoid form for under thousand dollars and, like I've, have sat and had these conversations? There's no reason it's the. I think the reason they've been so expensive is because that there were focus on trying to they weren't focused on doing the mass manufacture. There were people are focusing a thing, that's why I don't know exactly what the reasoning is both the same like way, more is like less

build a million dollar car in the beginning remind our car. Let's try to solve that problem. The way your region, coloured with some of those folks, you think, is my fake. At the same time, try too, I should build a system. That's cheap, not crappy, be cheap and was from where's principles. What is the minimum amounts of? he's a freedom. We need what the joints where's the controls that a company how do we have the leg worthy activators? What's the way to power this in the lowest cost with possible, but also in a way that psych actually works? How do we make the whole thing now? Part of the components worry there's a supply chain after I have all these different parts have too few

it says to do it all from scratch and do the the learning I mean it's a immune to these certain things like become obvious. Do the exact same pipeline as you do, for autonomous driving? Just the exact I mean the infrastructure. There is incredible for the computer vision for the manipulation task. The control problem changes the perception problem changes, but the pipeline doesn't change. Do it as I don't. I do, and obviously the optimism about how long it's going to take. I don't share haha, and but it's a really interesting. album- and I don't want to say anything because my first gut is to say that why the humanoid form, that is, it, makes sense. Yeah, that's my second got too, but but but then there's a lot of.

What's really sad about the human form there their sanctuary, I don't want to get in the way like they might solve this thing and they might it's a similar with boston dynamics like why like. If I were to you, you can be a hater and be in Hugo god to mark river and just like. How are you going to make money with these ex super expensive legged But what was your business plan? This is making sense. Why are you doing this letter robots but at the same time their pushing forward the science, the art of robotics and when nobody else does yep and with elon they're, not just going to do that, they're going to drive down the cost to our can have humor both in the home? Potentially, though the part I agree with is a lot of people find it fascinating and probably also attract talent who want to work on

robots. I think it's a fascinating scientific problem in engineering problem and it can teach us more about human body and locomotion- and all of that, I think there's a lot to learn from it. Where I get tripped up, is We need them for any. other than art and entertainment in the real world. Ailing I get There are some areas where you can't just rebuild a like a spaceship. You can't just like before resuming years on the spaceships, you can't just re engineer it. You have some things that are just built for human bodies, a submarine spaceship, but a factory, maybe I'm naive, but it seems, like we've already rebuilt factories to accommodate other types of robots. Why would we want to just like make a humanoid robot to go in there? I I just get really tripped up on

I think that people want humanoids. I think people are fascinated by them things the little over hyped. Well, most of our world is still build for humanoids. I know what it shouldn't be. It should be built so that its wheelchair accessible, so the question is: do you build a world? Is the journal former? Will accessible all robot foreign factor accessible or you build humanoid robots, I he doesn't have to be all and it also doesn't have to be either or I just feel like we're thinking so little about the system?

in general and how to create infrastructure that works for everyone, all kinds of people, all kinds of robots. Like that's the I mean it's morven investment, but that would pay off way more in the future. Then just trying to cram expensive or may be slightly less expensive, humanoid technology into a human they. Unfortunately, one company can't do that. together it's like autonomous driving, can be easily solved. If you do the two, I if you change the infrastructure of cities and so on, but that requires a lot of. People a lot of them are politicians and a lot of them are somewhat, if not a lot corrupt and all those guys. The things I end the that thing you mention is really really really important. I've and she asked me a lot of folks, space, spacex and Tessa other companies too, but they're specifically, the openness makes it easier to. Like me, everybody.

I think a lot of amazing things in this world happen. You get amazing people together. Any can sell an idea like us becoming a multi planetary species? You can say why the hell, are we going to mars like why colonize mars? If you think from from basic first principles, it doesn't make any sense, it doesn't make any sense to to go to the moon. It doesn't go it. The only thing that makes sense to go to spaces for Sarah, But there's something about the vision of the future. The optimism laden that permeates this vision of us becoming multi planetary, its thinking not just for the next ten years, is thinking like human civilization reaching out into the stars. It it makes people dream it's really exciting

And that they're going to come up with some cool shit that might not have anything to do with the like he hears right cause. He doesn't seem to care about social robotics, which is conscious surprising to me, as I talked to him, he doesn't humans or humans are the things you avoid, and hurt right behind the guts, like the the number one job of a robot is not to hurt a human to avoid them. You know that that The collaborative aspect of human robot interaction, I think, is not at least not in his, though not something he thinks about deeply, but my senses have somebody like that takes on the problem of humanoid robotics we're going to get a social robot out of it, like people in that manner, said elam, but people like like elon if they take on seriously these. Ah,

I think I can just imagine with it with a humanoid robots. You can help but create a social robot. So if you do different for facts, if you do industrial, robotics you're, like the attention not end up into like walking. had into a social about us such a robot, hereby interaction problem. If you create The whole reason you want to a human humanoid robot, even after reinvent we're not reinvent, but do introduce a lot of fascinating new ideas into the problem of human robot interaction which I'm excited about. So I, if I, if I was a business person, houses is not this is this is way too risky? making sense, but when people are really convinced

lotta amazing people working on it, they are those who would have his here. This is really interesting. Just like without less and boston dynamics. I mean day I am. I apologize if I'm ignorant on this, I think, very really more than anyone else. Maybe with I bought lichens sony pushed forward. Humor robotics. like a a leap with the earliest atlas, absolutely and like without them like where the hell did they do it? Why? Well, I think for them it is a research platform. It's not! I don't think they ever the speculation I think they ever intended atlas to be like a commercially successful robot. I think they're just lake. Can we do this with try

but I wonder if they maybe the answer they landed on is because they eventually went to arm spot the earlier versions spot so quadriplegic for four legged robot, but maybe they reached. For a start, I make I like the I think they tried it and they still are trying it for atlas to be picking a boxes, moving boxes to being it, it makes sense, said: okay. If they were exactly the same cost, it makes sense to have a human or robot in the warehouse currently currently any shortsighted. But yes, currently, yes, they would sell. But it's not it's. It's short. It is short sighted, but if it's not pragmatic to think any other way to think that you're gonna be the change, warehouses, you're gonna, have to let you go

amazon, you and only deirdre warehouse. Oh yes, yes, even if your amazon, that's very costly, to change warehouses here with a big investment by isn't change. You do that. investment in a way! So here's the thing, if you do that, my role by their works in the warehouse than human Robot at sea. I dunno why test is not talking about it. This way, as far as I know, but like they're, human or robot, is going to have all kinds of other applications outside their setting like to me. It's obvious, I think, is a really hard problem solve, but whoever solves this

I robot problem are going to have to solve the social robotics problem. Oh for sure I mean they're already with spot needing to yell social robotics, probably for a like for spot to be effective at scale. I'm not sure what is currently effective skills getting better and better, but they're. Actually, the the thing they they did is an interesting decision. Perhaps that'll end up doing the same thing, which is spot is supposed to be set up a platform for intelligence, so spot doesn't have any high level intelligence like high level perception. Skills is supposed to be controlled remotely and at the precise form that you and attach attached of something and somebody else's supposed to do. The attaching is a platform that you can take in uneven ground and is able to maintain balance go into dangerous situations.

As a platform. On top of that, you can add a camera that the surveillance they can remotely monitor. You can record. Ah, you can record the camera. You can remove control it by at manipulation, basic object, manipulation, but not autonomous object. Mediation is remotely controlled, but the intelligence on top of it, which is what would be required for automation. Somebody s was to do here, perhaps will do the same, the same thing ultimately, but it doesn't make sense because the goal of office is- nation earth without that the? But then you never know it's like. Why go to mars? Why why? Why do I mean

that's true, and I I reluctantly, like I'm very excited about space travel, I was like can huge respect like why. Why am I excited about it? I think what got me excited was. I saw a panel with some people who do study other planet. And it became really clear how little we know about ourselves than about how nature works and just how much there is to learn from exploring other parts of the universe so like on a rational level. That's how I convinced myself that that's why I'm excited in reality, it's just fucking. eating. I mean just like the idea that we can do this difficult thing and that humans come together to build things that can explore space. I mean there's just something inherently thrilling.

that- and I am reluctant about it because I feel like there are so many other challenges and problems that I think are more important to solve, but I also think we should be doing all of it at once, and so to that extent, I am like all for real search on humanoid robots, development of humanoid robots. I think that the lad to explore and learn, and it doesn't necessarily take away from other areas of science, at least it shouldn't. I think unfortunate. A lot of the attention goes towards that end. It does. Take resources and attention away from other areas of robotic that we should be focused on, but I dont think we shouldn't do it. You think it might be a little bit of a distraction. Forget the yom particular application, but

if you care about social robotics, the humanoid form is a distraction. Is the distraction and it's one that I find particularly boring. It's just it's interesting from a research perspective, but from a like what types of robots can we create when our world like? Why would we just create a humanoid robot, so even at even just robotic manipulation, so arms nih useful either how arms can be useful but like? Why not have three arms like? Why does it have to look like a person why she personage just think that washing their dishes, his harder than a raw, why that can be a companion, yeah being useful in the home is actually tough, but does the commission you have to have like two arms than look like you. I am making the case for zero, ok, zero arms freaky

then, tomorrow, where meant there myself like, I don't want a robot to defend itself like those among us jack you. I mean like this, I think I just think that the social component doesn't require arms or legs or so on right as we ve talked about, and I think that's probably where a lot of the meaningful impact this can't be happening now. I think it we could get so creative with the design like. Why not have a robot on roller skates or like whatever like? Why does it have to look like us you're still, it is. It is a compelling and interesting form from a research perspective. Like you said, yeah, he co, authored papers. talking about that for we robot twenty twain to Lula, robot consumer protection in the face of honour,

the social marketing. I think you are talking about some of the ideas in the yes, oh you got it from twitter. I think TAT some published yeah yeah. Would you decide do more research? You just go if you'd people twitter feed yeah go thank you and it's not stalking if it's public, so there's a you looked at me like you're offended like how did you know now, it's just like worried that, like thumb early, I mean yeah, there's a pdf. Does it there is there's a pdf like now yeah, maybe like as of a few days ago, yeah, ok, well, yeah, ok, If you look violated like how did you hear that be the us is draft, it's draft. Nobody read line, nobody really it yet until we ve written the final paper. What's enjoyed good, oh, join other by you time. This comes out, I'm sure it'll be work once we, basically, we robot, that's the workshop. Where

You have an hour where people give you constructive feedback on the paper, and then you write the good version by a ticket if there's no pdf, I dunno I imagined, but there is a table in there in a virtual, imagined pdf that I like that I wanted to mention which is like this kind of. The fact is used across various marketing platforms is basically looking at traditional media person to person interaction target adds influences are social, robust is the kind of idea you ve, been speaking to adjust the nice breakdown of that that social robots have personalized recommendations, social persuasion autumn. Scalable data collection and embodiment so person person in Iraq has really nice by this, of the automated and the data collection aspects, but the social robots have those two elements here at home at the pretence

oh for social robots to just combine all of these different marketing methods. To be this, really potent cocktail and that table which was denial, idea really fantastic when we put it in at the last second, so you re, like I'm glad you like it in a pdf, doesn't exist yet that nobody can find they look. yet so easy social robots. What is I mean? Does that include virtual worlds enough? I think a lot of this applies to virtual ones. Two, although the embodiment thing, which I personally find very fascinating, is definitely a factor that researchers can enhance people's engagement with device, but bondman be a virtual thing also meaning like, the body in the virtual world like maybe maybe We feel like what, because one may

by your body is a thing that I can disappear like and has a permanence I mean. There's certain characteristics. You can associate a physical object, though I think what I am referring to. Well- and I think this gets messy, because now we have all these new virtual worlds and a r and stuff- and I think it gets messy, but there's research showing that something on a screen on a traditional screen and something that is moving in your physical space, that that has a very different effect on Are your brain perceives that even the so am I I have a sense that we can do that in a virtual world, probably like when I have used

We are I jump around like an idiot, because I think something is going to hit me and even if a video game, a two d screen, is compelling enough. Like the thing that's immersive about it, is I kind of put myself into that world. You cut those the the the obvious. You interact with call of duty things your shooting there there. May your imagination fills the gas and it becomes real like him. It pulls reminded once well done so I really depends what shorter than on the tv screen. Yeah yeah, I think, there's a ton of different factors and there is different. Save embodiment like you can have embodiment in the virtual world. You can have an agent that simply text based. there's no embodiment, though I think there's a whole spectrum of factors that can influence how much you engaged. I wonder I always wondered if he can have like a an entity living in a computer as ok. This can be dark at Heaven

I always wondered about this since they make a solid. I keep thinking about this case. no, but I got this is almost like black mare, but the entity that convinced or is able to convince you those being tortured. inside the computer need your help to get up. Some like this. That pick up to me to be suffering is one of the things that make the empathy we're, not good at as you ve, even discuss another issue in the physical form like holding a robot upside down ever really, The examples about that and discussing that I think suffering is

really a catalyst for empathy and I just feel like who can project embodiment on a virtual thing if its capable of certain things like suffering the owls wonder, I think that's true and I think that's what happened with the lambda thing, not that I dont none of the transcript was about suffering, but it about having the capacity for suffering and human emotion. That convinced the engineer that this thing was sentient and its basically the plot of ex machina I hear a mere robot like scream in pain. Have I know what have you seen that someone. Oh, you know they. Actually they actually made a room scream whenever it hit a warm I program that myself as well yeah those inspired by the air as evil they'll, have a cyber had had a while that didn't I mean everyone installing it with scream again

I saw. I had the work programme. The rumours is one I kick it whenever out, so contact between me and the robots once squint really look here and you're in fired by that, yeah. I guess I must remember the day I saw the d a long time ago or maybe it hurts me mention and that, just as the easy thing to program ah said that even a run, those numbers for over a year now, but yet My experience with it was that its they can. They could be I, like you, remember them you are you miss them. Like their real living beings so that the capacity to suffer or is a really powerful thing,

yeah. Even then that I mean it was kind of hilarious. It was just a random recording of screaming from the internet, but it still, it still is weird there's a thing you have to get right because, based on the interaction like the latency like it has there is, there is a realistic aspect of how you should scream relative to when you get hurt by which should correspond correctly like. If you kick, it really hard to scream louder know, it's just scream the appropriate time not low, as the last like one. Second later right, like there's an exact like there's, a timing when you get like, I dunno when you run into when you run your foot into like the side of a table or something There's a timing there, the dynamics you have to get right for the for the actual scream, because

that the roma in particular. Doesn't so I was ah the sensors. Don't they doesnt know about pain? yeah. Sorry to say: roomba doesn't understand pain, so you have to correctly map the the sensors. The timing to the production of the sound but when you get that somewhat ray is this is a weird it's really weird feeling and you actually feel like a bad person, ah yeah so, but it's his make, makes you think, because that, with all the ways that we talked about, that can be used to manipulate you for sure in a good and bad way. So the good ways like he could form a connection with a thing in a bad way that you can form a connection order to sell you products that you don't want

or monopoly you politically around him. Many very thinks you tweeted were about to be living in the movie, her acceptance that upset every search. Your tweets, like they're, like shakespeare, We're about to be living in the movie her, except instead of about love, is gonna, be about when I say the chap ought being suddenly racist and the question whether its ethical for companies to charge for software india, so can break them down I mean by that yeah. Obviously, some of it is humor yes well kind of. I am like I so weird to be in this space, where I am so worried about this technology and also so excited about it at the same time, but, though really lake. I haven't, I got in a little bit jaded and then with

between three and then the lamp, the transcript. I was like we re energised, but have also been thinking a lot about how you know what are the water, the ethical issues that are come up and I think some of the things that companies are really gonna have to figure out is obviously algorithmic. Bias is a huge and known problem at this point, like even you know that the new image generation tools like dolly, where. Clearly put in a lot of effort to make sure that if you search for people it gives you a diverse set of people laura like even that one people have already found numerous like ways that it just kind of regurgitate by

if these have things that it finds on the internet like how, if you search for success, that gives you a bunch of images of men if you search for sadness that gives you a bunch of images of women, so I think that this is. This is like the really tricky one with these voice voice agents that companies are going to have to figure out. And that's why it's suddenly raised as do not overtly, because I think they're gonna be able to solve the overt thing and then with a subtle stuff. It's gonna be really difficult, and then the other thing is gonna be yeah like people are gonna, become so emotionally attached to artificial agents with this complexity of language with a potential embodiment far,

turn that I mean there's already there's a paper. We robot this year, written by robotics just about how to deal with the fact that robots die and looking at it as an ethical issue, because it impacts people and I think, there's gonna, be way more issues than just that. Like cut like that, I think that the tweet was software upgrades right, leg, How much is it ok to charge for something like that? If someone is deeply emotionally invested in this relationship on the ethics of that was interesting, but there is also the point the goal: funding mechanisms for commercial diver that the dog in theory, this a subscription yeah the new I both the old ivo from the nineties, people got really attached to and in japan there so having like funerals and buddhists temples for the eyeballs that can't be repaired, because people really viewed them as part of their families to talk about.

by dogs, robot dogs, ivo. Yet the original, like famous robot dog, that sony made king out in the nineties, got discontinued, have he funerals further mention and now they have a new one, the new one, It's great. I have one at home. It's like was three thousand dollars from which I think three thousand bucks, and then after few years you have to start paying. I think it's like three hundred a year for and for a subscription service for cloud services and cloud services They I mean it's a lot of the dog is more complete. than the original, and it has a lot of cool features, and it can remember stuff and experiences and can learn, and a lot of that is outsourced the cloud, and so you have to pay to keep that running, which makes sense people you know,

good pay and people who aren't using it shouldn't have to pay, but it does raise the interesting question. Could you set that price to reflect a consumers willingness to pay for the emotional connection? So if, if flag, We know that people are really really attached to these things. Just like they would be to a real dog. Could you just start charging more because there's like more demand, yeah the method yet to be, but there, but that's true for using. Maybe the love wrap it is, then it is also true for real dogs, like there's all these new medical services. Nowadays, where people will shell out thousands and thousands of dollars to keep their path alive, and is that taking advantage of people or is that just giving them what they want to ask the question?

back to marriage? What about all the money that has caused to get married and then all the money that it costs to get a divorce that feels like of, Mary. I got that such a scam, athena societies fullest scams there like a scam, then if create like the whole wedding industrial complex, has created all these quote: unquote: traditions that people buy into that aren't even traditions like they're, just fabricated, by marketing like it's awful. Let me ask you about racist robots. It sure is, up to accompany the crisis. That is without by removing biased and sonya unnecessarily, to a field. Nay, I currently yes in a lot of people agree there is an important field are, but the question is: very social: robotics should be up to the complete removed the biased, say. Well, who else can our dream of devices the fight?

I guess because there's a lot of people there suddenly racist in modern society, I should now robots, also be suddenly racist. That's like why we put so much responsibility on the robots because there are no magic like like a hitler room, I mean that the before any, but the with- I guess, I'm asking us here That's right, you're, Elias inside our lot to make that your guess and I've been nonstop reading about war were too hitler. I think I'm glad we exist in the world. Can you make those jobs now that deal with it anyway,

yeah, this is a serious question sort of like and like it's such a difficult problem to solve now, of course, like bias and so on. Like there's low hanging fruit, which I think was a lot of people are focused on, but then the it. like subtle stuff over time is very difficult to know. Now, if you come, if you can also count remove the personality you can complete or move personalization you ve been removed, the language aspect, which is what I had been arguing because I was like the languages, the disappointing aspect of social robots, any but now reintroducing not because it is now no longer disappointing. So I do well, let's just start with the promise, which I think is very truth, which is that racism is not a neutral thing but

it is the thing that we don't want in our society, like I e that it does not conform to my values. So if we agree that racism is bad, I do think that it has to be the company, because the proper I mean it might not be possible and companies might have to put out product. at where they're taking risks and they might get slammed by consumers and they might have to adjust. I don't know like how this is going to work in the market. I have opinions about how it should work, but it is a company and the danger with robots- is that they can entrench the stuff. It's not like your racist uncle who you can have a conversation with,

and and put things into context, maybe with a yeah or who, who might change over time with more experience, a robot really just like regurgitate things in trenches them and could influence other people and that's terrible think there's a difficult challenges, because even the premises you started with that. Essentially, racism is bad we live in a society today were the definition. Racism is between different people. What does some people say that it's not enough not to be racist. Some people say you have to be anti racist, yet so you have to you have to have a robot that counts, calls out like cause, you are you're an implicit racist, love that robust, but like maybe it

Maybe this is written off. You'd love it because maybe ills elsie racism in things at aren't racist and then your argument with before bucket euro the racist, I'm not I'm, not exactly sure that I mean it's a it's a tricky thing. I guess I'm saying that the line is not obvious, especially in this heated. Discussion, will have a lot of identity politics of what what is harmful to different groups and so on. Yeahs is it feels the deficit is again. The broader question here is: should a social about his company be solving or being part of solving the issues of society were ok, I think it's the same question as shit

I as an individual, be responsible for knowing everything in advance and saying all the right things, and the answer to that is: yes, I am responsible, but I'm not going to get it perfects and then the question is: how do we deal with that and so as a person how I aspire to Go with that is when I do in everley make a mistake, because I have line spots and people get angry. I don't take that personally and I listen to us behind the anger and it can even happened that, like maybe I'll tweet something less well intentioned and

one we are. One group of people started yelling at me and then I change it. The way that they said and then another group of people starts yelling at me, which has happened that this happened to me actually around. In my talk, they talk about robust that are used in autism therapy and so whether to stay a child with autism or an autistic child is super controversial and a lot of artistic people prefer to be referred to as artistic people and a lot of parents of autistic children preferred choice, child with autism and then there's they disagree. So though, I've gotten yell that from both sides- and I think I'm still response- I am responsible, even if I can't get it right, I don't have that makes sense like it's a responsibility thing.

And I'm I can be as well intentioned as I want, am still gonna make mistakes, and that is part of the existing power structures that exist and that something that I accept a new absorbing being from both sides and grow from it and learn from a. But but the danger is that, after being attacked, assume even cancelled a k, a completely removed from your billy did, to tweet, you might become J, and I want to talk about our now anymore. I Don'T- and I Didn'T- the meanest happened to me and that's what I did was. I listen to both sides and I chose I tried to get information and then I'd. I decided that I was going to use artists to children.

and now moving forward with that, like I don't for now for now, yet until until I get updated information and I'm never gonna get anything perfect, but I'm making choices and moving forward because being a coward and like just retreating from that, I think, but he, the problem. You are very. smart person in the individual researcher, thinker and intellectual. So that's the right thing for you to do the hard things one as a company. Imagine imagining at a pr team said Kate, this you should we have yeah that I mean just well, if you're, if you Pierre people like. Obviously they would see that maybe I or maybe I'll bring about ism, maybe don't bring up these topics. You're, beginning attacked is If your brand or say the brand word they'll, be you if we look at different demographics.

That are inspired by your work. I think it's insensitive to them, or something mentioned, seem like they're, the kind of pressure that all of a sudden you or or you do suboptimal decisions. You take a kind of poll and again it's looking at the past vs the future. if all those kinds of things and it it becomes difficult in the same way. That's is difficult for social media companies to figure out like who's sensor. Who'd recommend think this is ultimately a question about leadership. Honestly, like the way the ic leadership, because

now. The thing that bothers me about institutions and a lot of people who run current institutions is that their main focus is protecting the institution or protecting themselves. Personally, that is bad leadership, because it means you cannot have integrity. You cannot lead with integrity, and it makes sense because, like obviously, if you're the type of leader who immediately blows up the institutional leading, then that doesn't exist anymore, and maybe that's why we don't have any good leaders anymore because they had integrity and they didn't put the survival of the institution first, but I feel, like you have to adjust to be a good leader. You have to be responsible and understand that with great power comes great responsibility. You have to be humble, and you have to listen, and you have to

Aren't you can't get defensive and you cannot put your own protection before other thing get take risks, were you might lose your job You might lose your well being because of the because for a in in the process of standing for the principles for the things you think are right to do yeah some of the things you've like basin learning from like listen to people money for what they want, they feel the same goes for the institution. Yeah yeah by. I ultimately actually believe that those kinds of companies and countries succeed that have leaders like there is for. Thank, though, problem like the people who have good ideas about leadership they're like yeah. No. This is why I don't why I'm not running a company is when I think three years since the Jeffrey Epstein, contrary.

sit on mit mit media lab joy? the head of the media lab resigned and at that time? You are an opinion article about it suggests. Looking back a few years have passed what what have you learned about human nature from the fact that somebody, like Jeffrey Epstein, found his way inside mit, really good question? When I learned about human nature, I think well, there's There's, how did this problem come about and then there's what was the reaction to this problem and to becoming public and in the reaction

things I learned about human nature were that sometimes cowards are worse than assholes. Well, I'm really does really powerful steamer I because the assholes at least you know what you're dealing with they have intact. In a way they just living out their ethical values and the cowards they're, the ones that you have to watch out for- and this comes back to people protecting themselves over doing the right thing. They'll throw Others under the bus is there some says that none of people took responsibility for sure, and I mean I don't wanna. Sugar coat at all. What chile ito did I mean I think its growth that he took money

Jeffrey Epstein. I believe him that he didn't know about the bad bad stuff, but I've been in those circles with those like public intellectual dudes that he was hanging out with, and Any woman in the circle of light thought ten billion red flags just it. The whole environment was so mythologies flake, and so personally, because Joey leg was create boss and great friend it I was I am disappointed that he ignored that in favour of raising money, and I think that it was right for him to resign in the face of that. But one of the things that he did, that no many others didn't was he came for about it and he took responsibility and all the people who didn't. I think it's just

Interesting. The other thing I learned of human nature. Okay, I'm gonna go on it on a tangible, come back or promised. So I once saw this tweet from someone There was a twitter thread from someone who worked at a homeless, shelter and he said that started working there. He noticed that people would often come in and use the bathroom and they were just trash. The entire bathroom, like reflects walls like toilet paper on the ground. And he asked someone who had been there longer illegal. Why do they do this? While whose people come in and trash about them and he was told, because it's the only thing in their lives that they have control over and I feel like, sometimes when it comes to the response them just the them moving response that happens in the wake of some harm that was caused. If you can't,

target the person who actually caused the harm, who was Epstein, you will go as many circles out as you can until you find the person that you have power over and you have control over and then you will trash that and it makes sense that people do this. Its again is the human nature thing. Of course, you're gonna focused all your energy because you feel helpless and enraged. you and is unfair and you have no other power you're going to focus all of you. Jeanne someone who's so far removed from problem that that's not even an efficient solution and though the promise often the first person who fight is the one that has integrity, sufficient integrity, tickers, possibility yeah, and if why my husband, who is as he's he's a liberal but he's always lake when live,

both form a firing squad. They stand in a circle because you know that your friends are going to listen to you, so you criticize them you're not going to be able to convince someone across the aisle seeing that situation. What I hope is the people in the farther, not situation any situation of that sort. the people that are farther out and in the circles ah stand up and like they also take some responsibility for the broader picture of human nature versus X, pacific situation. But also take some responsibility and but also defend the people involved as flawed. Not in like known nothing maggie like this people. Fucked up, like you said, there's a lot of red flags, the people,

ignored for the sake of money in this particular case, but also like be transparent and public about it and spread the responsibility across large? number of people such tat. You learn a lesson from it. Institutionally yeah it was the fifth and this problem. It wasn't one individual, I feel like currently because urge joy took pike, would resign because of it says she fired pressure, doubts because of it mit can pretend, like odin, but didn't know anything think I was in part fast leadership again because

is when you are at the top of an institution with that much power and you were complicit in what happened, which they were like come on, there's no way that they didn't know that this is happening. So I like to not stand up and take responsibility, I think it's bad leadership jurisdiction why I've seen was able to outside of mit. Is able to make a lot of friends was a lot of powerful people that makes us you. Why was he able to get in his rooms? Befriend these people, the french people that I dont know personally, but I think a lot of them. Frankly, I know as being good people. Smart people, while daylight jefferson into into their office, have a discussion with them

What would you understand about human nature from that? Well, so I never met obscene. I mean I've met some of the people who interacted with. But I was never like. I never saw him in action. I don't know how charismatic he was or what that was, but I do think that sometimes the simple answer is the more likely one and, from my understanding what he would do is he was kind of a griff. A social grifter like you, know those people who will You must get this because you're famous, you must get people coming to you and being like oh, I know your friends so and so in order to get credit with you, I think he just convince some people who,

We were trusted in a network that he was a great guy and that you know whatever I think at that point, because at that point he had had like a what a conviction prior, but it was a one off thing. It wasn't clear that there was this other thing that was and most riverwood don't check yeah and most other check with your own. When you meet this guy, I don't know, maybe people do check whether that powerful and with your maybe they don't have no idea now averaging David, I mean it's not like I, does anyone check cecchini about me because I have walked into some some, the richest and most public of profit people in the world, and nobody like asked questions and who the fuck is this guy like yeah, like nobody, asked questions its. It's interesting, I got Think I gotta be more security or something like they're there. It really

and I think a lot of it has to do with. My hope is in my case has to do with our people can says this is a good person, but. If that's the case the neck and surely, and now you're making use charisma to infiltrate yeah just saying that I am giving people vouch for you within that type of network, like once you yeah, once you have someone powerful vouch for you who someone else trusts then new. Herein. So how do you avoid something like that if you're mit, if your harvard assurance any of these institutions, while I mean first of all, you have to do your homework before you take money from someone I like

think think, that's required, but I think by joey did do his homework. I think he did and I think at the time that he took money. There was the one conviction and not like the later thing, and I think that the story at that time was he didn't know she was under age and move on or whatever was mistaken. Julia was believed in redemption for people in that people can change in that they can genuinely regret and like learning and move on- and he was the big believer in that, though, I could I totally see him being like. Well, I'm not going to exclude him because of this thing and because other people are vouching for him to and just to be clear, we're now talking about the set of people.

enjoy belong to, who did not like good of the island and have sex with under age girls, because that the whole other set of people who like were powerful end like we're part of that network and who knew and participated in and so like. I distinguish between, people who got taken in who didn't know that that was happening and people who knew. I wonder what the different circles look like psych people want to the island and didn't do anything, see thing didn't know about anything versus the people do something Then there's people, though, heard rumors the mayor Do the rumours ike? Isn't there is no people there ah heard rumors well bill cosby for the longest time fight for the law? like whenever the that happened like

people came out of the woodwork. Like everybody kind, you I mean the city the ethic of what he was doing, the rumours I what either I think the other would put his red flags. As you were saying, nea and like I can tell you that those circles like there were red flag, out me even hearing any rumours about anything ever like. I was already like this. There are not a lot of women here, which is a bad sign. Isn't there a lot places with is not a lot of women and that doesn't necessarily mean a bad sign. There are, if you like, a pipeline problem where at lake I don't know that technology law clinic than only gets like me,

where's, because there's nothin there is now a woman. You know, applicants in the pool, but there's some aspect of this situation that, like there should be more women here, oh yeah, here you ve, actually Ask you about this, because you have strong opinions about richard Stallman. Is that do you still have those strong opinions? Look all I need to say is that he met my friend who's, a law, professor yeah. She shook his hand and he licked her arm from wrist to elbow, and it certainly wasn't appropriate at that time What of bar, if you're like an incredibly weird person? Ok, that's a good question because obviously there's a lot of narrow diver,

since at mit and everywhere is an obviously like we. We need to accept that people are different, that people don't understand social conventions the same way, but one of the things that I've learned about nor and divert and is that women are often expected or talk to me, and are a divergence and kind of fit in. and men are accommodated and excused, and I don't think that being neuro divergent gives you a license to be an asshole like you can be a weird person and you can still learn that it's not okay to lick someone's arm yeah, there's a isabelle. It's like women should be allowed to be a little weirder and men should be less weird cause. I think I think there is a cause. I you're one of the people I think

reading. That made me cause. I wanted to talk to each installment of the podcast about cause. I didn't have the context cause I wanted to talk to him. Cause he's you know. Free software on his very weird in interesting, ways in the words of computer says he's also weird in that You know when he gives a talk, he'll be like like picking at his feet in eating the skin off his feet. That he's known for these extremely color how do you put it? I don't know how to put it, but then there is something happened to him and conversations on this thread of related Epstein yeah, which I was talking about, because I somebody joy eat out of sight. I felt He was maligned

I got people who are looking for somebody to get angry at for Hugh. He was inappropriate, but the I didn't like the cowardice more like I I set aside his Situation, we could discuss it, but the cowardice and a major part in this is me saying it about. A treaty that whole situation of era with carrots about how they treat anything they try to make the problem go here so that it was it was about by an exact command? The partitioning he should have left the mailing shouldn't you shouldn't have been part of the meal was ass, probably true, all though, but I think I think what were bothered me, what always bothers. In these mailing mowing situations or twitter situations like if you say something, that's hurtful the people makes angry, and then people start yelling em. Maybe we shouldn't be yelling,

Maybe they are yelling, because. Again you're the only point of power they have maybe he's. Ok that you yelling whenever it is like it's your response to that that matters, and I think that I just have a lot of respect for people who can say. Oh people angry there's a reason their angry. Let me find out what that reason is and learn more about it. It doesn't mean that I am wrong. It doesn't mean that I'm bad doesn't mean that I'm ill intentioned, but they angry, I want to understand, and then once you understand, you can respond again with integrity and say actually stand by what I said here is why, or you can

they actually listened in. Here is some things I learnt that's the kind of response I wanna see from people and people extolling do not respond that way. They just like go into battle right backwards, obvious you, you didn't listen, you know, I'm just listen odyssey. That's to me bad as the people who just apologize just because they are trying to make the prom go. I of course, so I guess that's not it. Both a bad food apology have to include understanding what you did wrong and in part standing up. If the things you think you did right so yeah, if there are those things finding and then, but you have to give you have to acknowledge you have to like give that hard. To the eager that says I did something wrong now: hit the debt deafening wishes. Farmers, not somebody who is capable of acting or haven't given evidence

the kind of thing, but that was also even just your tweet at the do. A lot of thinking like different people from different walks of life, see red flags and different things. Yes, and so things I find as a man not threatening and hilarious. are not necessarily ah Mean that their art, like deeply hurtful others, and I don't mean that in a social justice warrior way, but in a in a in a real way like few people really have different experiences. That the like really put things into context kind of listen to what people are saying, put us

the emotion of other emotion, will do what you're saying it and try to keep the facts of their experience and learn from it and because it is not just about the individual, variants either is not like. Oh, you know my friend and have a sense of humor about being lick. It's that she's been she's been metaphorically licked. You know fifty seven to nine sat weak because, yes, an attractive law, progress and she doesn't get taken too and so, like men, walked through the world and it impossible for them to even understand what it's like to have a different experience of the world. And that's why it is so important to listen to people and believe people and believe that their angry for a reason- maybe you dont like them and maybe you don't like that- they're angry at you? Maybe you get defensive about that. Maybe you think that they should. You know, explain it to you, but.

Believe that they're angry for a reason and try to understand it. Yeah there's a deep truth: there an opportunity for you to become a better person, gas cook, a question, but haven't you been doing that for two hours, three hours now We ask you about Glenn Maxwell she'd been saying that she's, an innocent victim is she in innocent victim or is she evil and equally responsible jeffrey obscene now masking far away for me, mit things and more just your sense of the whole situation. I have been following it, so I dont know the facts of the situation and like what is now like known to her role in that fire. Her. Clearly I'm not, but if I were her, I would.

be going round thing, I'm an innocent victim, I would say, maybe he's I don't know she the again like I don't know she was control budget, for it is these things as part of a legal case. There's just saying this is like a pr thing well here but it's not just heard our whole family believes this. There's this there's a whole effort that says like that. How shall I put It- I believe they believe it so in that is not here I believe the family, the bit biscuit, families saying that she's, a good she's a human being, I think everyone is a good human being who knows the controversial opinion, but I think Everyone is a good human being. There's no evil people, there's people who do bad,

things and who behave in ways that harm others, and I think we should always hold people accountable for that, but holding cement accountable doesn't mean thing that their evil yeah those those people usually think don't good yeah, I mean, aside from an army sociopath like our specifically trying to harm people, but I think most people are trying to do their best and if they're not. doing their best is because there is some impediment or something in their past. So I just I noon. We don't believe in good and evil people. They do believe in like harmful, not harmful actions, and Oh, I don't know like I don't I don't care if she's a good person, but if she contributed to harm than she is to be accountable for that link. That's my position. I don't know the facts of the matter. Our seems like she was pretty close. The situation so doesnt seem very believable it. She was a victim, but I don't know

I wish I have met, have seen as something tells me. You just be irregular person. Charismatic person, like anybody else and as a varied dark reality that we don't know which, among us, what what which of us are hiding in the closet. It's a really tough thing to like deal with, because then you can put your trust into some people and they can completely betray that trust and in the process. Are you a lot of people that interacted with Epstein then. I have I mean if they're not destroyed by it and there they that their whole like the ground on which they stand ethically, is, as has crumbled, at least in part, and you I'm sure you now have interact with people.

Thou knowing it for bad people as they. It was time for your old people who have done bad things before her and he's always talking about bad guys and I'm trying to move him towards they're, just people who make bad choices. Yeah, that's really powerful. Actually, that's really important to remember That means you have compassion towards all human beings, Jeff hope for the future of mit and future of meal. Up in this context, so the devon humans, now at the helm, I'm going to talk to, I talked to a pre sale, talk to her again she's great lover, yeah she's great, I dunno. If she knew the whole situation when she started, because the situation went beyond just the Epstein scandal, a bunch of other stuff happened at the same time, some of it's, not public, and but my what I was personally going through at that

time so the Epstein thing happened, I think, was it august or september twenty nineteen. It was. Somewhere around late summer in june twenty nineteen. So I'm I'm a research scientist at mit. You are terrain so and I always have had various supervisors to yell over the years and they've. Just basically, let me do what I want, which has been great, but I had a supervisor at the time and he called me and his office for regular check in in june of twenty nineteen, I reported to mit that my raised her head grabbed me pulled me into a hug wrapped his arms around my waist and started massaging my hip and trying to kiss me kiss my face. Kiss me near the mouth. and they had literally the words.

Don't worry I'll. Take care of your career and that that experience was really interesting because I just I was very indignant. I was like he kept it. He doesn't even know who I am and those like. This is the meat you era, and I know you thought that when I reported that it would get taken care of and then I had to go through the whole, boarding process that mit and I learned a lot about how institutions really handle those things internally on particular situations where then provide evidence that it happened and reason the lie about it, but I had no evidence, and so I was going through that and that was another experience for me. Where there are so many people in the institution.

Who really believe in protecting the institution at all costs and there's only a few people who care about doing the right thing and one of them resigned now, there's even less of them left so. So what you learn from that and he worked where's the source, if you have hope for this institution that I think you love, at least in part. I love the idea of a mighty. I love the idea. I loved the research love a lot of the faculty Allah, the valued in the students, l of the energy. Like I love it all. I think the administration suffers from the same problems is any institutional. I any leadership of an institution that is large, which is that they have become risk averse, like you mentioned, they care about. P are the only ways to get their attention and change.

Minds about anything are to threaten the reputation of the institute or to have a lot of money. Does the the way to have power at institute yeah. I dont think they I don't think they have a lot of integrity or believe and ideas, or even have a lot of connection to the research body and like the people who are really cause. It's so weird you have this amazing research bodies, people pushing the boundaries of things who are afraid to take that there's the hacker culture. And then you have the administration and there really like, protect the institution at all costs Yet azure disconnect complete the owner, there was always there for just, cannot slowly grows over time. A disconnect between administration. The faculty, I think it grew over time, is what I've heard. I mean I've been there. For eleven years now. I don't know if it's gotten worse during my time,

heard from people who have been there longer that it didn't like mit didn't used to have a general counsel's office. They didn't used to have all this corporate stuff and then they had to create it as they got bigger and in the era where such things I guess deemed necessary. She, I believe, in the power of individual. So like overthrow the thing, so just every the president Ah my tea or certain people in restraining can reform. The whole thing is that the cultural though there of I think everybody remit. Burst at mit is about the students in the faculty. You know because I don't know I've had a lot of conversations that have been shocking with like senior administration, think the students are children. The column heads like these are the smartest people. There's ways smarter than you here and you're, so dismissal

individuals, I'm saying, like the the capacity like the aura of the play he's still values this the students and the faculty like. I am not being awfully, what about about what I mean is it Illustration is the the fraud at the top of the like the waves, the surface. Like they can be removed and that new life can be brought in. That would keep to the spirit of the place who decides on who to bring in who they hire 'em up. Oh, I see I see, but I I do think ultimo, the especially in the arrow social media and so on faculties to the more more power Does it with more more voices buzz? I helped them. I really do. once the mit going away any time soon, and I girls, you, don't think it's terrible place at all.

Amazing place either, but there's different trajectories. It can take yeah, unlike in that as to do with a lot of things, including desert is its days even of even if it all about box, it could be the capital of the world and robotics but currently, if you wanna, be doing the best, I work in the world you can go to Google or facebook. Our task, the apple and so on. Let it be united, be at mit. I saw that that has to do. I think it s basically has to do with. not allowing the the brilliance of the research to flourish. Yeah people say about money, and I think it's about that at all, like sometimes you have more

freedom and can work more interesting things in companies that will really where they lose people and so that the freedom in all in and always Which is, why is heartbreaking to get like people gracious, starman decision, interesting line, because I could just almost gigantic weirdo that cross lines. You shouldn't crossroads: but we don't draw too many lines. This is the tricky thing there are different types of lions. Am I mature your opinion because you have strong laws as you hold the, but then if administration listens to every line, there's there's also power and drawing a line like and then there's it becomes ago a little drug. Yet you have to find the right balance. Licking somebody's arm is never appropriate. I think the biggest aspect there is not owning it. Learning from growing from it from

If stallman are people like that back when it had like understanding seeing the right being a pathetic scene or the the fact that this was like totally inappropriate, like not one that particular act, but everything that led up to it too. I think there are different kinds of line. I think there are let the storm and crossed lines that essentially excluded a bunch of people and create an environment where we their brilliant minds that we never got the benefit of because he made things fuel grocery an unsafe for people, their lines that you can cross where europe challenging an institution to like. I don't think he was intentionally trying to cross the line, or maybe you ve. meeting hair their lines that you can cross intentionally to move them forward.

the right thing like when mit was like. You can't put an all gender room in the media lab because, like something permits whatever and Joey did anyway, that's the line you can cross to make things actually better for people in the liner crossing some arbitrary stupid rule that people who don't want to take the risk of lake the fishermen I mean no. Ultimately, I think the thing set aside cross lines in a way that doesn't alienate others so like, for example, me, looking at this third for awhile wearing a suit offer mit, which sounds our intuitive, but that's actually, I'm at the proposal of the new weird for that mit created this culture is persevere. The people I was working like nobody, worsens the business travellers. Don't trust diseases like fuck, you

my answer to. That is how I hurting anybody re exactly it's challenging people's perception is doing. I think that you want to do here and I have not hurting people and in that particular thing was there miss hurting people, it's a good line. That's a good london like hurting, ultimately, the people that you want to flourish. Yeah you tweeted a picture of pumpkin spies, greek yogurt and asked grounds for divorce. Yes now so let me ask you was: was the key to us excess relationship? Oh my god, a good couple therapist what what went wrong with a pumpkin spiced greek yogurt. What's exact as long as the pumpkin is it, the greek

understand. I learned that we'd for awhile. I grew up in europe that I don't understand the pumpkin spice in everything crazed that they do every autumn. Here, like I understand that it might be good and some foods, but they just put it in everything and it doesn't belong agree in greek. Over I mean I was it's being humorous, I ate one of those yogurts that actually tasted pretty good, though I bet you're part of the success of a good marriage, is like giving each other a hard time. He wears leave for things like that. Is there a broader lesson? Could you get him to have a really great marriage from the external community? Every marriage looks good from external every. I think that that's That's not true by I got now, but like relationships are hard really

that anyone are hard and especially because people evolving change and you have to make sure there is space for both people to evolve and change together, and I think one of the thing It's that I really liked about our marriage. Vows was, I remember before we got married greg at some point like got kind of nervous, and he was like it's just it's such a big commitment commit like to something for life, and I was like we're not committing to this for life and he was like we're not, and I'm like, no like we're committing to being part of a team and doing what's best for the team if what's best for the team is to break up break up lake. I don't believe in this lake. We have to do this for our whole lives and that really resonate with him too, though, tat drew jude britain of their vows, like that. We're just we're gonna, be a team to do was right for the tuna

it's very, like Michael Jordan view you guys get like mary in the desert. Like november rain style with slash playing- or you don't have to answer that, I'm not good at these questions. Okay, you brought up marriage like eight times three trying to hint something on the pod You have an announcement to make. No what I don't know it just seems like a good, a metaphor for why why why would they felt, like a good metaphor, for of cases for the marriage, industrial complex, remember their and our people complaining it just seemed like marriage is one of the things that always surprises me, because I want to get married. You do he I do, and then I I listened to like france by that complain. Not all

I like a like guys. I really like guys don't complain about their marriage. Is such a cheap. I give this a cheap. release valve like that that bitching about anything honestly? That's just it is too easy, but especially like about the sports team or the weather. If you want but like about somebody there, Derek in your life to like, if you bitch about them, you are going to see them as a lesser being. Also, like you don't think so, but you're going to like decrease the value. Have I I, but I personally believe over time, you're not going to appreciate the magic of that person. I think anyway, but it's like that, as just noticed, this a lot were married and they will wine about you like the way wherever this is. This cut is part of the sort of the culture, two thousand,

comment in the way. I think women do the same thing about the husband. Ah, he doesn't inert does. This is a good reason, competent at this or that, wherever they theirs kind of others. This tropes, like oh husband, never do accidently wives, it. I think this do a disservice, Everyone is just disrespectful to everyone involved, yep, it happens so yeah. I was and brought that up as an example of something that people actually love, but they complain about because, for some reason, that's more fun to do is complain about stuff yeah, and so that's what with clippy or whatever

it's like. You complain about where you actually love it. There is just a good metaphor that you know I was going to ask you. Oh you are your hamster died when I was like eight miss her page and what's the closest relationship you've had with a pet at one what we had have a lot of ropa. Have you loved the most in your life me? My first pet was a goldfish name bob and he died immediately, and that was really sad. Think I think there's really tat bob and Nancy, my goldfish. We got new bob's and about captain

and we got new bob's nancy is kept living, so it replaceable yeah. I was young. It's easy to do you think there will be a time when the robot like in the movie her be something we fall in love with romantically, oh yeah, oh for sure, yeah scale like where a lot of people romantically, I dunno. If it's going to happen at scale, I think I think we talked about this a little bit last time on the podcast huh, where I think we're just capable of so many different kinds of relationships and actually part of why I think marriage is so tough, as a relationship is because we put so many expectations on it.

If your partner has to be your best friend and you have to be sexually attracted to them, and they have to be a good co, parent and a good roommate and like it's all the relationships at once that have to work but we're like normally with other people, we have like one type of relationship or we even have. We have a different They can shape to our dog than we do to our neighbour in the media. To that in a personal someone, a coworker, I think that some people are gonna, find romantic relationships with robots interesting. It might even be it's bad thing, but I don't think it's gonna replace like human romantic relationships. I think, is just gonna, be it's a separate type of thing, He's coming more now.

more narrow, or even like just something new that we haven't really experienced before may be like having a crush on an artificial agent, is a different type of fascination. I don't do now. People would see that as chi. I think people would well. I mean the things that people feel threatened by in relationships are very manifold. So yeah, it's just an interesting one, cause a maybe maybe they'll be good a little jealousy for the real issue. Maybe cop was there, but you are kind of thing over jealousy. I mean I think it's hard to avoid jealousy what I think there are. It was probably to avoid- I mean some people don't even get jealous when their partners sleeps with someone else like these pollyanna marine. I think there's just such a diversity of different ways that we can struck relationships are view them that this is just going

another one, that we add. You dedicate your book to your dad. What did you learn about life from your dad? My dad is he's a great listener and he is The best person I know at the type of cognitive empathy that's like perspective, take so not like emotional, like crook, crying empathy, but trying to see someone else's point of view and trying to put yourself in their shoes, and he really Instilled that in me, from an early age and then he made me read a ton of science fiction which probably led me down this path, tell you how to be curious about the world and be open minded yeah. Last question: what role does love play in

condition since we ve been talking about love and robots, her you're fascinated by social robotics. It feels, like all of that, operates in a landscape of something that we can call love now here. I think there is a lot of different kinds of love. If you like it, we need to link the eskimos all these different words for snow. We need that. We need more words to describe different types and kinds of love that weak syrians bathing love is so important and I also think it's not zero sum. That's that's the really interesting thing about love. Is that He had one kid and I will love loved my first kid more than. giving else in the world, and I was like how can I have a second kid and then love that kid. Also

if we're going to love it as much as the first, but I love them both equally it just like my heart expanded, and so I think that people who are threatened by love towards artificial agents, they don't need to be threatened. For that reason, artificial agents will just if done right, will just expand your capacity for love, I think so. I agree beautifully put kate. This is awesome. I still didn't talk about half the things I want to talk about, but were already like way over three hours. So thank you so much. I really appreciate talking today, you're, awesome, you're you're being a great artist, great

writer. Now it's an honor that you would talk with me thanks for doing it right back at you. Thank you. Thanks for listening to his conversation with kate darling, to support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description, and now I believe you have some words for my angel courage is the most important of all the virtues, because without courage you can't practice any other virtue consistently. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time. The.