The following is a conversation with stephen brunelle, also known online as destiny. He's a video game, streamer and political commentator, one of the early pioneers of both live streaming in general and live streamed political debate and discourse politically. He is a progressive identifying as either left or far left. Depending on your perspective. There are many reasons I wanted to talk to Steven first, I just talked to Ben Shapiro and many

people have told me that Steven is the Ben shapiro of the left in terms of political perspective and exceptional debate. Skills second reason is he skillfully defends some nuanced nonstandard views at the same time being pro stabler, shmoop pro institutions and pro Biden, while also being pro capitalism and pro free speech. Third reason is: he has been there at the beginning and throughout the meteoric rise of the video game last streaming community. In some mainstream circles, this community is not taken seriously, perhaps because of it's demographic distribution, skewing young- or perhaps because of the sometimes hostile of communication, but I think this community should be taken seriously and shown respect millions of young minds tune into last change like destinies to question and to try to enter

damn what is going on with the world, often exploring challenging even controversial ideas. The language is sometimes harsher and humor, sometimes meaner than I would prefer, but I grandpa lex put on my rain boots and went into the beautiful, chaotic muck of online discourse and have so far survive to tell the tale, with a smile and even more love in my heart than before. On top of all this, We were lucky to have molina lorenson, a popular streamer and world traveller join us. At the end of the conversation, you can check out her channel on twitched at tv, slash, molina, and you can check out Stevens channel a new to darken, slash destiny and now a quickie second mention of sponsor check them out in the description is the best way to support the spot gas through that

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You try to make sure I have a bed of civil conflict with. I try to make sure I get enough electric lights and the vitamins the weimar parts taken care by third agrees plus is delicious, meaning the zen aspect of just slowing down life enjoying a nice drink of athletic greens. It just puts me back to a place where all the stress of life Appears and I returned to a place of com a way. They'll give you one must supply fish oil when you sign up at a third agrees that calm, slash lex. These We are getting increasingly more ridiculous and I love it. These shows also brought to you by master class one hundred and eighty dollars a year gets you an all access pass to watch courses from the best people in the world at the core stuff in the world, so we got Chris hadfield, I mean the list is ridiculous

I hope to talk about to a bunch of them on the podcast, but I'll never be able to have such a dense and sexy presentation of their insights on a podcast as master class achieves in these. As I mean it's, just not comparable. A gas is a fun chat. This is an intense, also fun. Educational experience for Chris hatfield near the grass facing wall right Carl Santana garry kasparov, Daniel Grano, your game and martyrs cassese. Twenty hog jane got it just goes on and on and never stops is really really really worth it. I recommended check it out. Get unlimited access to every master class and get fifteen percent off an annual membership at master class. That calm, slash lacks the shows also brought to buy blinkers. my favorite app for learning new things that a key ideas from thousands of not fiction books, condense them down into fifteen minutes they can read or listen to,

and sometimes the new things I learn from books. I've already read some those multiple times the insights. They pull out really take a fresh perspective, not not in all cases but in many cases a fresh perspective, some books, I've already read. Obviously, if I ever read the book, this is a great way to pick which nonfiction books you read or if you're never going to get a chance to read those books.

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Hmm, I don't know if you watched me watching your yay interview yup. Thank you so much for I so curious when you're navigating a conversation like that, are you? How intentional is the thought process? between like building rapport and pushing and and giving a little old lady like zero, zero attention. I was watching and thank you so much you're, very kind for you to review their conversation. It meant a lot that you were complementary parts on the technical aspects of the conversation but now zero and I'm actually liberally trying to avoid. I think you ve called the debate brain which is just another flee were of thinking about, like the meadow conversation trying to optimize? How should this conversation go because I feel like the more you do that the better you get at that the less human connection you have,

like the less genuinely you actually sitting there in a moment and listen to the person you more like calculating was the right thing to say versus like feeling what is what is that person feeling right now? What were they thinking as I'm trying to do I put myself in their mind and thinking what is the world look like to them? What is the word feel like to them, and so from that I too We try to listen now. I'm also learning its basic rogan and others have been get me shit for not pushing back, it's good, sometimes to say from a place of care for the other human being to say, stop what did you just say? I don't think that's represents who you are and what you really mean, or maybe, if it does at that time represents who they are. I can see a better a better world if they grow into a different direction. Try to point that direction out to them,

there's a really complicated dance between letting somebody share their full story versus letting somebody like essentially like proselytize, your coffee and then it's like okay hold on? Let's take a minute here, but yeah I used to be four or five years ago. It was attack attack, attack, attack, attack, whatever you said, and now I'm leaning way more towards, though, like okay well, tell me how you feel about everything and then we'll go from there. So a lot of people like my new approach, some older fans will watch and have like. Why are you letting this guy? Just I belonged. You know he said like five or six wrong things and you're only going to call him out on two of 'em and it's like two different styles of conversation. But do you do a lot of research beforehand to, depending on the conversation, india. So if we're going to talk like vaccines and stuff yeah, that's a ton of reading and stuff that I never thought I'd know going into it and if it's a more personal like political philosophy, conversation there's not as much you can prepare forges a truly depends on the conversation. How much you actually list I think the other person will always loss and you have to listen because as soon as you stop listening, the quality of everything falls apart. The connection disappears, the quality of conversation disappears, but my natural inclination is

just be way more aggressive, the normal. So I have to I constantly remind myself- I guess, you'd call it a meta conversation like okay, he's, probably saying this because of that or we'll. Let him go here and then we'll stop later, but yeah cause. My my preferred style of conversation is like I'm gonna talk and the second I say something you disagree with then, let's iron it outright, I got like. I think I, like syllogism, slyke, okay, here's premise, a good okay premise, be okay and in conclusion, and as long as we're both deductively sound we're, not crazy, no psychosis, then we're going to agree on everything and whereas other people like to most people, think in stories like narratives like who is a whole like narrative in their individual facts. Don't matter as much cause they'll pick and choose what they want, and it's really hard has everything scenarios active function in that world, but it's a frustrating for me some facts. Why

I seen you ve had a lot of excellent beers, one one of them. I just recently last night watches on systemic racism and it's the first time I've seen you completely lose your shit, I'll shoot who was out against I'm not sure exactly, but you're. Just very frustrating sign not lose your ship you're frustrated constantly. Because of the thing, let's lay out one two, three and every time I try to it out. It would falter. I think it had to do with sort of. Can you use data to make an argument, or do you need to use a study that doesn't interpretation of that data and then there's like this tension between? I think this is a behavioral economists that you are talking to the point. Is you do this kind of nice layout that the whole point of behavioral economics that says there's more to it than just the data you have to give a context and like do the rich, rigorous interpretation in the context of the full human story?

and then there was the dance back and forth sometimes use data, sometimes not and you're, getting really frustrated, found and shutting down, and so that felt like a failure mode. I've seen SAM Harris have similar sticking points I give you can agree on the terminology. We can't go on to me feel like I am, is such the wittgenstein perspective is like, I think, If you get stuck on any one thing, you're, just not going to make progress, you have to part of the conversation, has to be about doing a good dance together versus being dogmatically stuck on the path truth, I think the true challenges identifying. What of those sticking points are important verses. What is not important like by having an arrogant with somebody about like jewish representation. media they might, it might be like a big precision in they might see a couple things. I think you,

people. You know they tend to help their own or whatever and saying okay, but like for the purpose of the conversation, we can keep moving, but if they casually drop, like you know, yeah, I think that's why the holocaust numbers are blown up from. Like one hundred thousand or six million, and that's what I was like. Okay well hold on wait. If you think this we have to stop here, because this is going to be not just a language game in this part. If you really believe this fact, then the whole rest of the conversation is going to be informed by that belief. You know, and it has to be something that doesn't bother you personally. It's a step outside your own ego, So how does denial is something that would bother alot of people and their something's. Just at his observing you, If you like, when you get really good a conversation, you can become a stickler to arm I have your favorite terms that it really bothers. You people don't agree terms and begs the question you mean raising the question yeah. I usually just want tables people say stuff, I just let it slide you can't, because if you fight when you're having a conversation with somebody and you're

talking to their audience at the same time cause that's really what's happening. You never want to come off as overcome bad over over aggressive because it puts people in like there's, there's like a triggering in your brain, and this is true of relationships or friendships of persuasive rhetoric or whatever does it trigger in the brain and as soon as that, defensive trigger gets like flipped on everything is over. You've lost the ability to persuade, because everything becomes a fight. At that point now well, I wanted to talk to you because I heard somewhere that you were referred to as the Ben shapiro of the left and since I'm talking with Ben as well, I wanted to sort of complete spiritually this platonic. A philosophy, possibly my head. You are a progressive but wrestle with me now stand a progressive views and yet a heck of a fascinating, withdraw that guy. Sadly, I think you argue with passion, sometimes with excessive amounts of past but mostly polite way of saying that, almost always with the good faith and with rigour with seriousness I asked on you,

so bright it, which is an excellent out, shut out to the destiny, subverted so much else that pretty the post. What I really loved is when I asked for questions for you. There were like holy shit. There's adults in there. Let's all behave like nobody's, say incest as it was that's what was going on here, but actually the the the questions that rose to the top are really good. So somebody said that destiny was speaking of your journey was a conservative in his early teens. Then he became a libertarian. then he became a left wing social justice warrior. Then he flirted with socialism, and now he is a social democrat liberal. Have I heard you referred yourself as a far left person, so agree. There is true to their journey. Can you take me through your evolution, is a landscape of political ideologies that you went through, so my dad

I'm from Kentucky and my mom is a cuban emigrant cubans are notorious for being very conservative in the united states, for historical reasons and for other reasons, but on my upbringing was a very republic, one. I grew up listening to rush limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Michael savage, on the radio, billy cunningham, think Sean Hannity a little bit later on, like that was, like my whole upbringing politically. I remember I was writing I'd written like articles, the school journal like in favour of it. The war in iraq, and you know defending bush from all the criticism, etc. So I was like a bringing in the wants a kit highschool collar. I had my edgy lake libertarian, ask highschool phase of, a greeting, ayn rand of figuring out.

like oh, my god, nothing in life matters except for class and money. That's actually the answer to everything and I got to college. I became a ron, Paul fan very big ron, Paul fan and then from there I kind of work do life. life happens that kind of the lowest point in my life, and hers were I'm working financial living as I kind of in ruined my life is so much a dump stuff. That's happened for me. My most conservative point- and I know what it is about like being poor and thinking like you can work your way out of it, you can do whatever it's my upbringings always like if you're, not if you're, not if you're not having financial success. Just work work, work, work, work, and then I got into streaming very, very lucky break everything just line up the right time and then, as I progressed through streaming, I would say through the years have gradually fallen more more than the left, especially once my kid turn. four five six years old and I started to see like how much different his life was. Just because the financial operate it is that I was able to provide for him there no merit of his own and that started to radically change how I viewed the world and waterways.

It's like linger on that now low point. He worked at mcdonalds. He worked at a casino. You all did carpet cleaning. What was the the lowest point? Definitely the carver cleaning re. Absolutely. Why was the lowest point? That's when you were just flirting with starting streaming. My whole life has been a series of lucky. Perhaps really truly, I grow playing a lot of video games, but back in my day, our day you had Read. There's a lot of text on a screen bag of my day we used to play. They did not hotdog yeah cause nowadays, everything's voice acted, but back then you to read a lot. I was a really good reader, they got votes. Have you have heard you actually say that woman? What wilkins we're talking about? What would eat- and this really is a symbolic, our Gee webpages, so like fund a fantasy games fantasy star as they all of these, like any, are peachy, though, to banana estonia saga playstation. These are the things that I'm paws on that. Ok, I just talked to Todd howard, whose

of the other squirrels theme in the fall out fame and beyond what your thoughts on other schools wise guy on the greatest arpeggio of all time, man. I really don't like sky room or fall out the other, although it aims? Oh, no, not at all. Why do you hate scar? Yet so I really like characters compelling stories and narratives around those characters, and I like to see them kind of like grow and change kind of like a movie or a story. So in your life, and games you ve got characters there. A lot of like a ain't like classical tropes of like a character, starts off, like edgy angsty, all on their own. They develop relationships, friendships. They realize that the life is more about themselves and they do that, and I like that, that growth, that's kind of what you see in all of those older role playing games, I don't like. The open world wants as much cause your main characteristic, a blank slate, never talks, it's for you too, like project onto but it's not the same like are linear narrative of like growth, for the care to invest in the actual story arc to the character. This more crafted here in a beautiful way by the

designers of the game yeah that one is better or worse, as I tend towards like. I want to hear a compelling story around like a set of characters that like grow and change together, beautifully Well, then, yeah I just really loved being able to leave the town. You god side, the time and you look outside its nature in the world of possibilities, is before you, you do whatever the fuck you out and he that immensity just being lost in the well that was really immersive for me, but yeah you right. Whatever attracts you bought a world, so you are just starting to play video games. He got plenty is that's what you're lucky breaks there lot of random skills. You pick up depending on type a game you play. I played a lot of tax base games on the computer, so I was a very fast type. I am still very fast hyper read a lot in a learned, weird kind of map stuff for some of the calculation of some of the games. I think I'm pretty good at getting information, figuring, stuff out learning powder as all of that and then

and that plus the reading and everything with the games meant that I don't want to say. I excelled in school because my grades were pretty bad, but I was like all honours, all eighty classes or another, A dollar roma wanna. Eighty credit going to college, so I did pretty well in school probability I should have, but it was because I had the game stuff. That was like really powering a lot of my printer. While I was trying to sleep through class to see you're you're able to soak in information integrated and quickly take notes, I think I'm pretty gonna via what would you do this? Allowing these junior typing stuff is their system and that no taking and what and what is for not taking. This matter. I use notepad Originally no pay up note had not yet seen the plus plasma is their genius. The madness behind that or you just don't give a shit now I mean like it is going to depend on the style of conversation. If I'm would somebody that is very material, They organise their thoughts and they are a find a better word here for rambler. You can edit that and better were forever

Yes, I'm talks a lot lot. I'll start like taking notes bullet points like this this this is this. Is this because they are style of conversation where I say seven or eight different things, and then, when you go to respond to everything I said I cut you off immediately and we argue that point. But if somebody's going to do that, he a hold on you At these eight things I'm going to respond to every single one, have written them all down, and then you can go if you wanna go point by point. We can, but you just settle this and I wrote it down so we're going to go so what actually writing down. Like a couple of words per point. They left honestly, like there are very few unique conversations in politics like a lot of them. Are kind of retreading old ground so, if we're having a debate, an abortion somebody might say like. Oh will. I believe this thing about viability, and I believe this thing about you know when they're, a fetus versa, human and I'll just write down like those points, so that when I go to respond, I kind of have like a like no Kartika guiding thing there to keep me centered on my response, political discourses, tree you walking down, I gotta like taken just it my focus, guided summit like running

in a weird tangent or responding, something I didn't say or something. What about like doing? Research it just. Is there a system to your note taking because mental you seem to be one of the most organised people. I've listened to. So is there in your mind, or is there a system that some paper a little above I'd like the human mind, is a beautiful thing if you have interest in an area so that, like what I'll tell people is less, it is a totally new topic that I'm researching autonoe anything and I'll do a couple of these on streamlining are borne by people watch. It I might open a wikipedia article and I'll read and I hit something I don't know, and then I open the next wikipedia article and I'll read into and then I might have like, seven tabs, open and I'll read an original, read and and I'll read a ton of stuff, maybe for our two three four hours of stuff and they were the annual summit in trouble ass, my given amber like this particular thing, annulled,

wait, not really no, not too much, but what happens is as long as you've seen it once Robin is like the next day. The day after will read something else and we're like. Oh, I remember that thing from this thing. I remember like vaguely that and then, if you see it like a third time like, oh, this makes sense, because, especially when it comes to oh here's, a little trick or unstuck ever reading any news and there's a place that pops up always look at a map, because so much of history is like on a map. Is so important to like no the geography it makes things make so much more sense, but yet one site once you start to see stuff over and over again, just because of like read it few times. Stuff will start to kind of connect to my mind and like oh yeah. Well, this makes sense. Of course, these people believe this because of this, or, of course like this happened here. It's because you know that happened there. So yeah, it's a it's a lot of that. If there's a good topic that I'm doing specific research for so like Vaccine related stuff is a big one. The ukrainian russian conflict is a big one that I'll break out. I know I'll, probably like

a google doc and I'll just start like writing, like an outline of kind of the rough points of everything just to organize my thoughts around different topics. We're just going to go attention upon attention upon its agents will return to the low point of view life important case always returning from the philosophy to psychology. So you did the ukraine topic. One question is: what role does us play in this war? Could they have done something to avoid the war or did ever alter lay in forcing lyra pollutants hand. Do they have a role to play in this? clayton, the war towards a peace agreement and the opposite. If it does escalate retorted, something like the use of attack when you go up and are they to blame? Are we to blame, and so to my email awhile ago, with great words, there is a civic way to navigate a conversation where you can kind of like contribute to a negative event, but you're, not really the one,

responsible for it like the classic example. As a woman goes out, late at night gets a little bit too drunk and then something happens and it's like. While there might have been steps you could have taken to mitigate the risk. It's not her fault of what have because the responsibility rests on the on the agent, making the choice right this up chooser at some point that is choosing to do wrong or evil. I don't believe in any of the arguments that said, the united states has contributed to Russia's position on ukraine or the actress they ve taken on ukraine. There are several arguments that, as some people, some even political scholars are are are putting out there to say that the united states is to blame, but I find them completely unconvincing. I think that when you ask the question of like what is the I did states role or what is our role Ben? I think it's really important for I don't think we even agree as a country and what our role should be, which I think is a hard one, because you've got this kind of

is growing populist movement in the united states might be the far left in the far right hand, populist tend to have this kind of isolation. Is view of the world where the united states should just be our own thing, We shouldn't be telling anybody what to do. We should be the were police, and then of more in these, like centre, left and right positions and then across a lot of europe, you ve got more okay. The united states is kind of like the big kit on the block, like will look to them for guidance and leadership, on situations like what's going on in ukraine, so and so far as the river questions like what what is like the united states responsibility. I think we have a responsibility to ensure the relative like freedom, prosperity and stability across europe. I think that defending ukraine's sovereignty and right to their borders is a part of that and I dont believe that, prior to the invasion and twenty twenty two on the united states, was contributing to russia invading that country or another, given that, like the expansion of nato, you know has, as summits been threatening to russia, but the baltics join and russia. It do anything about it.

The invasion to crimea was very clearly a response to the revolution and twenty fourteen, the vision on the borders is clearly a response to ukraine. Winning that If the war in the southeast and the donbass and russia becoming more aggressive, I don't think that you can blame any of that on on nato expansion, there's no nato countries that are threatening russia or invading russia. Do you think there is a nuclear threat you think about this? Do you worry about this? That there is a threat of a tactical nuclear weapon being dropped. I think that possibility exists either way and I think the responsibility for that is on russia, because it can't it just can't be the case that if you have nukes you're allowed to invade countries and take their land because of anything, I think that that down the road also increased increases the potential for nuclear problems in the future. Right eggs at that point. Either every single country has to acquire their own nuclear weapons. Has he be dont? Russia's gonna mess with you or every single country has to do. Nato and now what we're back at square zero ground zero square one week like, I will look all these countries joining. Nato is aggressive towards russia, like what you gonna do.

Mention that there's it complicated alcohol is going on with the countries that have they have nuclear weapons and what's our responsibility, are you ought to do anything you want to countries that dont have nuclear weapons that are really tricky discussion pressure, because what is you are supposed to do if russia drops a tactical nuclear weapon, there's a set of options, none of which are good and it's such a tricky moment right now, because the things that Biden in other public figure say I feel like has a significant impact on the way this game turns out cause mutually assured. Destruction is partially a game of words,

now that I, why me, I believe, in the power of conversation and have leaders talking to each other, I feel, like you, have to oven a balance between threat and compromise and, like put the for the needs, the geopolitical, the economic needs of a nation, but also serve respect and represent your own interests, such as the chicken. When they call you play the. How do you play the hand or myself none of you ever heard in like evolutionary cycle evolutionary biology. There are things called tit for tat strategies. It kind of reminds me that words like if, like they're there much these little biological mechanisms were creatures will develop like socializing like tit for tat, if you do something bad to me, I want to do something. For you and then more complicated schemes will become out or be like tit tit for tat. Words like you can make one

take and then I'm going to contribute a second water can be tit. Tit tit for tat, or they can be tit for tat. Tat for tat, looks like all these, like back and forth, where creatures kind of optimize themselves and and yeah. I think something the united states did really well in terms of that kind of conversational strategy, and I approved of this in the beginning, was bite and was very clear about setting out, like the exact level of use, involvement for the war. We're not gonna do a no fly zone is not good. He was troops on the ground in ukraine, but we are going to send a whole bunch of money and a whole bunch of arms and how much of intel to them- and I thought you did a good laying out like the limitation of the us involvement, while opening as much as we could in the ways we could help but the arm. looming threat of some sort of tactical nuclear weapon lying on the table right, I was like it's gonna, be the annihilation of like russian, see, forces and everything, but will you know what I was of continues to escalate? it's like a world that nobody wants to. Nobody wants to be, and so we talked about this conversations and again. Thank you. So much

reviewing the yea conversation, let me ask you about boon. Speaking: differ conversations, if you sit down, if I sit down somebody like fire. Or will enemies. Landscape was the right way to have a conversation We can talk about that one. We could talk about. Somebody more well understood through history like something like Stalin or hitler. Somebody like that, maybe that's an easier example to illustrate how to handle extremely difficult conversations. Yeah I mean I can handle really difficult I should like to people leaders of countries, though you're there so much that you are representing in that conversation, I guess the thing it would be any I seem to me, would be like what his vladimir Putin's interest I, what is the genuine interest that he has in

conflict exotic, finding out like what is your buying or what is your like? What is the driving force? Keeping me here is probably the most important thing I think for Zelensky. I think it's it's quite a bit more simpler because he's he's on the defense, so it's defending his country and his people and for putin I've heard all sorts of things you know. Dugan has his writings on you know like the east versus the west, the collapse of the west in the face of light, all of the liberalism and the weird attributes stuff they criticise you ve got the design, till I returned to the site. Former soviet union ask thing you ve got prudence quotes the collapse of the soviet it was the biggest geopolitical disaster of twentieth. Tree and like a speaking like what is put after, not actually out another s, Why should a lot of you were right about about you? What does a lot of us? question: there's a lot of answers that he can give their question so says it down for three hours and talk about it. I think This is really interesting distinction, because you do do difficult conversations in the space of ideas

but I'll send you a stream. You have, I mean, there's a bunch of drama. Gone honours, there's a human second jeez laid out in its full richness before So to me with leaders. I think a part of the conversation has to be about the human psychology like a meta conversation, but like really. I understand what they feel, what they fear, who they are, as a human being, make as a family man as as a person proud of their country, as a person than egos a person has been affected, if not corruptible, empowers. All of us can be and likely are so all of that that gives context to then the answers about what you want in this war. Is that the answers about what you want in this war will be political answers of it's a it's. A good game, that's being played again with words and politicians are incredible,

after playing that game, I think the deeper truth comes from understanding, the human being from which those words come, and I think that's what you do. I dunno, if you do, those kinds of conversations were never talked to country? Let herself no not in another country leader but say, is a controversial figure, somebody that represents a certain idea. Don't just talk in space and ideas are challenged, ideas but understand. Who is this person? How did you come to those ideas? Oh yeah, when I've had there been a couple, a very controversial right, leaning figures, so the two armies streams further lorn, southern and nick cuentos and those types of conversations. Initially aren't very political at all. Yet more like, like, obviously, we believe in very very different things. Like the police don't happen, accidently. So how did you get to where you are those? I wish our personal conversation sets trail. Is there things you who about those conversations were you failed? Is there things you're part of waste fur things up?

Out of, I feel like, I feel, like I'm, really good attempting to understand people without judgment that I think a lot of people filling of conversations with me where they can share a lot and I'm not gonna jump down their throats for some having a poet. Incorrect observation or for them being judgmental What else are having like a feeling? That's, maybe not something they should have some they're embarrassed about. So I think I do a really good job at that and then, by extension of that, I've gotten the ability to hear perspectives from so many different people that I can understand a lot of different perspectives for failures of mine. I mean it's always gonna, be on stream. It'll be like I didn't push back hard enough. Why didn't know like a sort fact for a conversation usually that they're gonna be on these like very technical grounds generally and pretty happy would like the direction conversations have gone recently, especially over, like six months, so you going to do

radicalized the audience of those folks. Instead it used to be my goal. My goal was d radicalization. Now, I'm kind of hoping that that's just the by product, so the goal I think, is to talk to somebody and to show they believed this. Because of these reasons, and if you want to change people's beliefs, we have to talk about the underlying reasons for why they think the things they think. It's not enough to just say like that belief is bad. Because it's like, while they believe it for a whole bunch of things that are true and real to them. At least so. You have to address all the underlying things that they believe before you can change the overlying belief, from having a conversation with somebody it'll be like ok. Why do you feel this about that that that ok, I understand that if you like, a better way to solve that, would be like this or that instead of this thing soon to what degree of damp with eyes with the persons worldview versus pushed back. That's it. That's always the hard won when I am talking to other people. It's almost always me stepping as much

inside their bubble, as I can. I have to like, live and breathe their world view and be able to speak their world view in order to like navigate their thoughts, because my worldview ism and an annulment I'm not even using as an insult, I dunno, if I am a little bit autistic or something, but when I break apart things, I just want to see like steady, steady, steady fact fact. Fact: that's how my mind works for everything. That's what I like to see like personal stories. Don't do much for a narrative study, which means you show me like that. The data on the studies whenever but for other people, mining, most brains. More human than that and they tend to see things more kind of like surreal pictures, they're kind of painted in the brush strokes. way broader and you know they don't care about the itty, bitty, tiny fact sofa, If somebody else I'm trying to get into their head and I'm trying to change their mind on things, I'm going to be stepping into their world and I'm going to try to be working through that framework. Really good example might be harm will say.

When it comes to transit shoes for minors, okay, sixteen or seventeen year old needs to go on puberty blockers. The way that I want that debate to play out is a bless. Look at all the data. Let's see what are the outcomes? what of the processes for getting a medication and then will evaluate all of that and then we'll go in whatever like points my favourably, but that's wholly unconvincing to most people right. So as parent, if I'm having a conversation with another parent. The easiest way for me to have a conversation is like hey. We both have kids imagine how horrible it would be if we felt like our kids needed help and the government is trying to get between us and and their doctrine that conversation. That might be how that took place at which I may they got a really good argument, because I think there probably are times that the government should get a return. But I'll have that conversation, because now I'm in a world where they understand what I'm saying I am resonating, with the way that they feel about things. and I can make progress with the way that there are kind of viewing the world, because I'm talking a language they understand. So on this particular topic of transit shoes. At the reason you are banned from twitch, I've not share, dont know

just that hate speech, but I dont use like slurs or anything. So it's hard to know exactly so I think you made the claim that trans women- shouldn't compete with sis women in women's athletics. Can you make this case in case? Do men a case against it? I think in your committee. There's a lot of transports. Love you and there's a lot who hate you yeah, and so, if you can walk the tightrope of this conversation, the trade is to men. Both sides want argumentative strategies, I says that, like any time you have a conversation, you should be would argue both sides better than anybody else. You know so for the further. my side, the genuine belief side. It feels overwhelmingly all The data is showing that trans most trance women even after I, three years on some sort of like hiv or you know, estrogen stuff. There, sir, maintaining these advantages from their male puberty over sister under women, and if that is the case, if we are,

draw these distinctions around our sports between women and men, it feels unfair to have a category. Inside the women sports that are maintaining it antigens that are coming from a male puberty, regardless the amount of time they ve spent on hormone replacement therapy so that that would be my argument on that side. So it's unfair from a performance enhancement. so the same way we ban performance performance enhancing drugs involve increasing, of tests to stop thrown in that same way would be unfair. Recently outsource the case against The key aspects of the case in favour of them competing together is that realistically there's not going to be a transports category realistically, trans women are going to be competitive with sis men because they ve gone through these huge by you know like hormone changes, by the medication are taken and that when we look at house

Words are kind of done anyway, there's a whole bunch of biological differences between people within sports categories that are determining their placement in the professional world sophie instance, and somebody like me, is probably never going to go far in the mba, because I'm not tall enough, and I think the china and vietnam out you're. So don't I myself. I once had six six or something third huge people or you know you look like Michael phelps- is a classic example of a guy who's. Torso is like so long as bodies built for swimming and I think there are some trans people that will look at that, or somebody advocating for this position. The look another go: okay, realistically, the way that Michael phillips body processes, lactic acid, the shape physiologically of his body- is going to put women, a level of competition that so many men are never gonna reached just because the biology, how is it fair that you can have these biological outliers competing in these categories? But then, when we come to like sports categories of transit, women, you're gonna take trance women and say that they can't compete against us

women, can't you also just say that they have some level of biological difference there like? Is it really going to be that great of a difference than what Michael Phelps has versus the average swimmer or an n b? A player has versus, like the average height male yeah, Do you think we're gonna get into some tricky ethical territory as we start to be able to walk through biology, genetics modify the human body. Absolutely is, I feel like those, these are coming sooner than we wanted to send them to the eye, Oh man, do the eight. Have you seen the a I art? Yes, that's, of course, of an ape. said then yeah yeah, that's a that's, always been like. What's gonna happen when when robots can do art better the humans Ella well like what will see in twenty years and twenty years in twenty years and now you have a are winning competitions and it's funny because robot are essentially the robot behind you by the roma behind raw out nice. Robots are really good, airfoil said yeah. I got it

be careful, does not like one of the chinese ones with a gun on it right. Why not? What will see, depending on what you say? Robots are really. showing the limitations of the human mind and categories that we didn't believe we were limited before. I think that humans have this idea. Principally that we have like some type of like innovative creative drive. That is just outside of the bounds of physical understanding and with a sophisticated enough programme. we see that maybe that's not actually true and that's a really scary thing philosophically to deal with, because we feel like we're very special right. We we on the planet, we make computers and the idea that you can start to get these robots. That can do things. It's like okay you can do math. Fine, ok, you can do. Calculation is fine, but you can't do art, that's the human stuff and then, when emanistic, that is cycle- oh shoot in that terrifies you a little bit like a losing the human species.

Is in control of our dominance only assessor. losing control of hour dominance and I'm gonna jessica. Skynet thing could come and at some point, but I think I think it more it it it, this really fundamental level of like what does it mean, be human. What is it that we're good at and what should we be doing with technology? We never really asked that question in the western world. It's always the technology is like normative and that technology equals good and more technology equals better. That's been like the default assumption. In fact, if you ask a lot of people, how do you know of civilization? progress over the past hundred or two hundred years. They don't say we have better relationships. We love, you know, have a longer if jesuit blah blah blah they'll say technology has improved, we've got crazy phones, you got Chris computers and the idea that more technology might be bad. Has never even crossed somebody's mine unless its use for like a really bad thing self words interesting, weaker, Think as more and more automation is happening, we're going to

my more meaning from things like being artists and doing creative pursuits and hears like oh shit it if they are, if the creative process are also being automated than what are we gonna game, meaning what are the activities which will gain meaning you're. My whole life had been working on. Artificial intelligence systems has been different revolutions. One of them is the the machine, learning revolution, and it's interesting philip intuition and destroy that intuition about what is and is insoluble by machines for the longest, I grew up. Thinking go is not that the game occurs not solvable because understanding they? I systems is ultimately this is the mentally search mechanism that is fundamentally gone to be brute force. There's no short cuts check like a trot like if it can't solve the travelling salesman. Problem has not even been able to give you an approximate so most interesting problems are giant travel says

one problem in this. Of course it's not gonna be able to solve it, and then you then, deep learning revolution major realise holy shit, these large, I was a giant number of knobs is able to actually somehow estimate functions. They can do pretty good job of understanding, deep representation of a thing, whether that's a game of go or whether it the human natural language or of its images and video or audio and even actions and different video games and actions of robotics and so on, and then do you realize what the future models indifferent?

It's just different generative models. You start to realize holy shit. It can actually generate not just interesting representations or interesting manifestations of the representations of forms, but it's able to do something that impresses humans in it's creativity, it's as beautiful in the way we think of art. beautiful, like it, surprises us and makes us chuckle and makes us sit back in awe and all those kinds of things, and yet the thing that it seems to struggle with the most is the physical world. Currently so that that's counterintuitive. We humans think that it's as pretty trivial, the being able to pick up a cup be able to like write with a pen like in the physical space, would think that's trivial. We give ourselves respect for being great artists and great mathematicians well that kind of stuff- and that seems to be much easier than the physical space bodies are really cool. The air is a I dunno, it's probably

As our summit, there is some science fiction redder than a short story. It was like an alien that had landed on earth and it was describing our bodies from a totally alien perspective and when you think about all the things we can do, it's pretty cool weaken. You know climb in through a hole multitude of environments, we can exist in a multitude of temperature, is we can manipulate things? Did you with our hands and how they are the way that we can interact with things around us and yet were very capable, unlike physical level even though, like you said, we think about ourselves. I got him a bit of really big brains and we do who were really italian as well, but their bodies are critical to and it's a fascinating hierarchical biological system like that would made up of the book different like living organisms, that all nor about the big picture of our body and it's all function so little. Local world is doing this thing, but together as a of it forces supercilious system. All of that comes from

a very compressed. Encoding of what makes a human you start with the dna in it builds up from a single cell to the giant organism. I mean that, and because of the dna through the evolution process, you can constantly create new humans into living organisms that adapt to the environment, like that resilience to the physical world. It seems like running the whole earth over again. The whole evolutionary process over again is might be, the only way to do it, did you created robot that actually adapts is as resilience to dynamic world, maybe really difficult problem, possibly Moscow's elegant programming environment. You can do things on timescales that are impossible in the real world. Right, like the benefit to an computers, is a computational. They can compute such data so quickly, whereas on human timetables, we have to wait when you talk about Pollution unites it

racial or to generation after generation may be in a virtual. environment that can be simulated and then those this can happen like quicker this than a human timescale, but you have to look at earth at a quantum. Is a quantum mechanical system, the competition having superfluous This is a giant computer. Do a giant simulation so just cause for us humans, it slow there, like trillions of organisms involved in you, destiny being you charge, but the next adoration of like from human to human even if, under the quantum oversight us going on you talk about like like changes in dna, for instance, right that's happening from generation to generation timescale like in a virtual environment. I could theoretically happen why it already has a protein folding like huge cloud computing, probably an l stuff. It's like working and doing all of that stuff and it'll run like trillions and traces of simulations. You know every second and stuff, maybe not every second, but still, lower than the actual protein folding, much slower, the that's for the poor,

of solving pudding for affording to estimate the three d structure, but the actual by does that the actual, pushing folding way faster, so were the question is: can we should cut the simulation of human evolution? Try to figure out build up an organism without simile or the detail? because we have to see me or did you just say, algae were screwed, would all have our chair. We'd have to put in a pond and then watch it for them. Billion years related? Do it sure that's what the universe most likely is is a kind of simulation created by a teenager in the basement to detroit you what happens it's a computer game there might be most efficient way to create interesting organisms, but within the system is perhaps possible to create other robots that will be of use and will entertain us in the way that other humans entertain us. That's a really interesting, of course, problem, but it's surprising how difficult it has been.

To create systems that operate in the physical world and operate in the physical world in a way that is safe to humans and interesting to humans, cause there's also the human factor, the human robot interaction to me. That's like the most interesting problem to figure out how to do that. Well and the said you're mosque and others boss. The dynamics of work done legged robots like I really care about legged robots. Those super interesting how to make them such that their able to operate successfully dynamic environment. Super tricky there I, like the dumbest of dogs, speaking of which is a dog working outside its is really tricky to create this kind of organisms red. the living in and the humor world, then again if more and more of us move into the digital world to use stream, allow

the part of who you are exist in the digital space, the fact the of a physical representation us it may be more and more will become not important. I hope that's the case cause. I bought a lot of stock in meta and man. It's down alma mater. The company is there's some degree the king. Can you can you look at yourself like stephen, the physical meat vehicle and then the destiny this digital space, like Digital avatar did do sense that in a certain way, you're the digital avatar. I've always try to keep my aunt stream personality as generous past

bull so they're one and the same to me. I don't really view them as two separate entities so, but I mean I always do myself as stephen. The real life person might destinies my online name, but no because so many your social network has established the digital space. Next to me, be the millionth of the digital space. Can there be? Can we swap out another person that looks like you in like an ai system and in debt and did you notice destiny continue existing? They can at last be like there must be some level of sophistication that could emulate brain, I would imagine I brought the tax not there yet, but will the question is what the level the sophistication of the audience that would recognise as something has changed, but it's the turing test. How hard is it the trick? Your audience, your your large audience of fans, watch. Your streams that, when you swap out in the air I that emulates, you nothing has changed and the question is: do you

I have to really simulate so much of the human brain. For that I don't think so. Probably not so I mean, like you, said, a lot of political discourse. Is it just walking down the tree together. We can probably Emily it a lot of that discussion. The I would depend on it doing, all data sets and your training on that I'm having conversations about abortion in ukraine axioms, I imagine it could do for quite a while they may be. it is when novel issues pop up, then you probably need a more sophisticated resemblance of the inner rembrandt yet to keep keep training in the end. That's how the language models and that's the most incredible breakthroughs is the language models. We have to keep retrain the system, unread it has actually a lot of unrestrained, I'm just curious, I didn't, The interesting, like kind of like funny problems like the trolley problem that we can kind of work through our nor ethical citizen, are now like real questions. I think of your driving test limits on autopilot and you're gonna hit

but even a conservative somebody else like what? What ought the system do? We went very quickly from fun kind of like project in philosophy classed Do we need to solve this for insurance purposes like as quickly as possible, is kind of interesting thing about actually have about bring up the trail perambulator. This fascinating, version of it that a kite hilarious. Ok, let us return to your low point area. You started play it against those a lucky break. You you did text based. One thousand lucky break gotten to be pretty good at learning and then used to start thinking about college and so on what happened? Next I mean I went to like a prep school, so you kind of have to go to college after it's like. point right. I was also a millennial that all of us had to go to college. That's always what they told us so, and my life was kind of that is it's hard to describe. I don't really think much of the future. I was kind of enjoying the day to day, because everything in my life was pretty weird. Both my parents had moved turf

by the time I was sixteen seventeen as my grandma was working. I had a girlfriend moved out we're gonna placed at college, but it am I going college I had had from from working mcdonald's two hours ago. Can a casino restaurant basically it's really good at that job. So hype level of patience for drunk people and sand people- and I was doing music in school cause. I've really grown to love music and my kind of thought processes was my thought process What I can to music as a hobby. I guess unless I get really good- and maybe I can make money with that, but otherwise I love music. I'm ok go to school for music getting at it and they're just doing that on the side and the my main job would kind of be. This career was building at the casino and basically the trying to balance personal life plus graveyard. After sixty hour weeks, at a casino and then a full time. Music degree was not possible for me, and eventually I had to drop school after. I think it was like three years and after I dropped school to maintain my casino job. After a few months, I got

my casino job, so does actually just thrown away like the past, like three or four years life why you get fired from accession. I heard this story gunnar had his story. Basically I was just really dumb when it came to understanding corporate politics, and I this is funny cause the same attitude kind of followed me into the streaming world. My thought process is kind of always been Is that like as long as I'm really good at what I do? I should be untouchable from really good. You can't do anything to me. I don't have to play dumb games or whatever and at the casino it was the youngest, but it wasn't regionally shifting, in supervisor position at the casino and when I started, My own chefs there were problems that I would run. It one graveyard chef because of carry over from the swing shift and are one of these people, was underneath the soda machine they weren't cleaning it properly and fruit flies were showing up, and I if the manager came in one morning and she was like hey, what's going on with the machine and it was like listen, I can't do. I can't take everything from swing shift and do everything a grave shift. I can't do this. They need to figure out stuff at it or any more place, it's not possible for me

and she said what did you tell him and he also guy complained to the supervisor on the swift all the time, and she told me If you're not getting the answer that you like, then it's your responsibility to email, the next person up, Ok, that's interesting and some months went on and I ran into more problems because on graveyard the here's, how I don't love it's everywhere but morning shift is the easiest. That's when you them overstaffed, because that's one of the vps are in and that's when all the managers are there and everybody blah blah blah swing shift is the most challenging. That's where your highest flow of customers is you're, also decently staff there, but there's a lot of stuff going on and graveyard. Nobody cares at all about you. They don't give you any employees, you might get swamped, you might not. Who cares make sure it's clean for dacia? If that's the only thing that matters a quick question, priscilla clarifications. This is twenty four hour twice our dining at anchor in the dining cacena. Oh boy had amazing moment: diner casino, recently special place a diner casinos, a place of magic. That's a lot of.

No magic, there's a lot of other worldly stuff going out. There's terrors, there's an at they add interaction with the waitress. There was the sweetest wages in the world and are just sake made me feel less alone on this crucial devours, a graveyard begins when, for me, my ship was ten p m to six a m or sometimes like a cold and early to be a pm to six am or that's a no love for that shift now, especially not trying to do school. At the same time. Absolutely not but yeah, basically long story short. I ran into a problem with my sobre, where I didn't have employees on my shift? The peace were coming to the morning this, my hey, the Dinas kind of dirty and, unlike you, ve cut all my employees past four. A m when some night, I'm literally cooking and doing front of house? Like all my colleagues, I can't do this and not my manager, PAM told me well, you've got to figure it out, and so I remembered her advice, so I emailed the vp of food and beverage and I succeed her and I said I'm not getting the help I need on my restaurant now. I didn't know at the time that I was basic,

withdrawing her under the bus because of that email, but I'm not retroactively. When I look back on things our retrospective, I see that was the moment that I got like marked for deletion, and I d really understand it, even though I had heard terminology were papering summing up the door. But after that point I should have yet written up filling a lot of little brand of things like I'll cut like I've missed one day of work and my three said the casino and I started get written up for lecturing at like one or two minutes late and that's kind of weird, it's whatever written forenoon ways, but finally, paperwork and then eventually, came out situation with another employ where they were complicate ass. You like call Kosovo. Basically they wanted to come. Are they wanted to call out I told them if they called out they were going to have fired because they were at like ten points. They were at nine points and ten points is firing, blah blah blah pam Toby, You can tell her that she's going to get a point, but you can't tell us she is gonna, get fired. I dunno what that meant, and then I told her if you call out you're gonna get you know, you're fucked, you're gonna get fired. Are you gonna get ten points

I called in early like three days later and pen was like you inappropriately, communicate with an employee, because you said the effort and a text message, and am I really there is no shot and show that what you also try to fire the employee and the like. I told him she's going to get ten points like while you use the f word. I'm like this is insane and it just goes out. Such a high performing Why is there's no way I'm getting fired and then I did- and I was like a cash out my One can vote for, like three months cause I lay thrown away school for this casino job. I got fired from this job that yet nobody believed I got fired office was just so. If you look back viewer allowed to not just go back to your memory back. You watch yourself like someone, you quoted video the whole time. Do you think, be surprised. You would notice some things that potentially not having a software and is not having like social. Like civility village, he and social etiquette this played in the human relations yet absolutely so that is that of the corbett assembly yeah. I think so

it follows made even to this day there's a lot of them, but in a few weeks we're not. But when we spoke earlier about like meta conversations, I have to think a lot, sometimes about meta conversations, because the way that I want to drive a conversation will sometimes be way different than what is like the best way to have a conversation. Whereas I just I like go really hard on, like some itty bitty lake, some idiosyncrasies and factor figure whatever, but that's not like the human conversation I need to have you know so you got fired slush, left their job and then took you to the the job that would be the lowest point. Yeah there is a huge downgrade and pay. I want from getting leg, at the casino cause. I worked so much over towering like twenty to fifty an hour and all my overtime fifth, and this was back in two thousand and eight two thousand and nine as like a college student legs, amazing pay and that I had benefits like everything was good and then the carpet cleaning was like It was probably getting my paycheck like every other week was maybe fifteen hundred box or a thousand dollars, and I'm working like thirteen day stop

just like every other sunday off and so many hours I got to shop the shop at like seventy six and I palm at like eight or nine, depending on when my jobs are throughout the day you doing a businesses or residential at what he does everything everything? Are you working for a company this? we're gang or you'd have cancer. Like there's a schedule thing you have to go to it and so on yeah they, but so like. This is why they scheduled soccer. Sometimes I'd show up at I think we ought to be in the shop. Was seven a m, we shall be the shop at seven, a m first, you might be at eight or nine without job might be legal one hour job. So I might show up m, have a job from eight thirty, two, nine thirty them an extra minute be from until I say eleven so far,. in thirty, ninth I'll, do one job and then I'm gonna to like eleven to twelve or something then I would have like a decent job from like five to eight billig. My whole day is destroyed and I'm I'm doing like three smallest jobs, some get like

box may be for being in the shop. You know my job like ten or eleven hours and issues like horrible, so you somebody that seems to be extremely good thinking in conversation as so have a bit of a negro, perhaps in in the book the negative in the positive sense of that word, was there some aspects, though, looking mcdonald's and then what and the scene on the working for the as a carpet cleaning those humbling now never na. I had a u burn bright throughout all off the well now go, you can push back in there. You go again. I understand how you get what you mean. I had a really close friend growing up whose name is Chris and I think we've probably met when he was. We were like four or five. I think he lived behind me and I grew up with. M and I always been kind of an outsider to the world that I was in once I got the high school for sure obvious. All of those kids were incredibly wealthy. You know corvettes mustangs. When I turn sixteen

It was a prep school and I was doing the they have like a work study program there, where you could stay after school from two thirty to five every day to kind of like work to pay for your tuition. So I been working like through all of high school. I got another job at mcdonalds. When I was eighteen worked at the had always been doing that kind of work. I never really It is like beneath me or anything that sounds like might have I dunno like a family of doctors or lawyers or anything, and I may my the french chris guy would always make fun of everybody else for being kind alike in like preppy, kids and everything so, So there is this. Some pride to desert of hard work yeah. I guess a little bit yeah cause for looking special, my dad like the solution. Every promise just throw more hours of work at it. Basically, so I was always my go to remember. Him was psychologically the low point I think, psychologically. The low point was that, as I am doing this carpet, cleaning job driving around my city. There is like this fear. King of I guess, we're lotta people's garlic knowledge, but there is a feeling when you're in high school, that everything is

so exciting, and the whole world is kind of in front of you and there are a true million trillion, different branching pass the possibilities, and you know into high school you're thinking like? Am I going to be a doctor or a lawyer, or can I join the bear? Can I do this or that there's all these things in front of you and when I especially felt when I was doing those carpet cleaning jobs and I think it was in the fall. I'd be outset, some of these houses- and I just kind of look around and recognize a lot of his neighborhood. I drive around with friends and nor I you know be walking through. I did. I ran cross country. Some of them would be running through his neighbourhoods and who should come. This feeling of looking around and it was like when I was in the past. This is, I can, like a transitional phase, my life, where I'm doing this and it's so fun and exciting, and then I'm gonna move onto something else, and it's gonna be fun and exciting and awesome and Like you know, two years later, my whole life has collapsed. I come in a house but I can't afford anymore my ex that I hate is pregnant. My kid

I have no money. I've got no upward mobility. I failed college. I my job is horrible, like just every single out like this is like my all of those that the wave function had collapsed into one thing and that one thing was the worst thing that could have possibly been at the time for me at, like everything was gone and horrible saga. That was the feeling that at the time, do you ever contemplate suicide? I thought about thinking about it, but it isn't when that kind of person, so I mean basically as a way to escape from the harsher something that I'm so incredibly lucky. I don't know why or how I'm just going to chalk it up to biology. I've always had really high mental baseline. I've like depress, in all of that there have been a few short stints of dealt with it past thirty, because I did a lot of drugs but other than that I've. My mental basin is just so high and even in the carpet cleaning days like, if you got man, the videos might still be there and they got my old youtube channel channel where I'll be like playing starcraft. When I first started getting history

and I'll be calling up. Customers like this steve from guaranteed clean. We to move your job back one hour. Is it ok? If I show up and sit at two thirty and then a hang up was like alright guys, we got three more games, then it's like, let's go like stuff like my son, has always been like really high for mental function. So even in la pointers. The strength is, there is no easy. He give by way of advice from people that for whom the wave funk collapses as it does for many of us, I kali fuck the world is now full of opportunity and your kind, a failure- and I got up- yeah- I don't know it's rough because, like I use we ask for compassion from people that I have it better off because it her down there, like the only reason I say I got lucky, but it wasn't even really lucky. I lay our was like it was more like it wasn't just lucky that again in restricting it was lucky that I was in the computers at an early age. It was lucky that I play video games. early age. It was lucky that all the tec came up at exactly the right point in time like I was a pretty smart guy, but it was definitely

aberration, meets opportunity and an opportunity was like at the exact precise moment of my life. If anything, differently than I would just be cleaning carpets today. So so many worlds, interpretation quantum mechanics one out of like there's many many Stevens they're, just still carpet cleaning and are full of pain and resentment. Yeah. That's the one, he's advice that I gave, I hate that I have to push back against. Those crypto rose. Everybody online for diesel, intelligent people at our success, I've never heard anybody give account election of us. Maybe you well, he sent me to disagree. I always look at kids in high school and, unlike just try a little bit harder, like thirty minutes a night, if you dont sadie, just thirty, which is to a little bit more, it is your life the foundation for the rest, your life and you can appreciate it and high school in college. But, oh, my god, when you get out everything your life is so much easier. You have proof more responsibility over the direction of your life. When you're like thirteen fourteen years old,

Then you ever well once you're like twenty five and older, because this is like, when you're determining the foundations that everything can build on what one on a percentage is. First of all, it does seem that The liberating aspect of being young is like, anything you learn so working hard, learning something will pay off. in like nonlinear, was it you said with video guess I feel like so people who I hate school are well fine but find something Where your challenging yourself, you growing learning you learning a skill learning about a thing. Of course. You know you could push there were some trajectories them might not be productive. Like you, if you spend needs, I give you ten years playing, An illegal legends gave you love and hate relationship with notice, ahead and hate relationship. Okay, well, we'll talk about either give her a love. Hate relationship with hate in general will just in love cook out all will try to the complex ephi that one

I think in general, just investing itself fully with passion. It really does pay off, but that said also school. I feel like doesn't get enough credit like highschool in particular middle school and high school, because his general education, if I I think, if he, if you're, especially if you're lucky to have good teachers, but honestly I haven't mostly the textbooks themselves with good teachers. It's a one chance in life. You have to really explore a subject for grades like getting good grades, is at ten I would say with actual learning that is true, but just get a biology textbook and to explore ideas and biology and allow yourself to be inspired by the beauty of it, too yeah I think that really really really pays off in you- never get a chance to do that again,

maybe not even textbooks like reading straight up breeding. I think if you read this is one time in life you get a chance to read, really read like read a book a day, read even really invest you don't really grow by reading them in your mouth. all those guys talk about it, like it's, a very, very rare that you meet like a dumb person who reads a lot, I dunno, if that's ever happened in my life, yeah dumber, not successful in this in the cool thing is: seems like the reading the sec investment the reading do early on in high school pays way more than the reading. You do later, psych that really influential reader is: is it a junior high school years, because your bed, quickly, learning from others the mistakes that have made the solutions to problems you you basically learning the shore the life I got over. The hell you wanna do music read from the best people that

music theory like learn. Music theory learn I'll, read: biographies of jazz musicians. Blues musicians see there like see all the mistakes see what they did see the shortcuts for. I do podcasting what about other package, if you wanna, do do streamer, read about the streamers, physicists and so on? I feel, like you, figure out all the mistakes and get to shock at the life, because most people shoved college without having done that and I get a chance your way past them yeah one or two percent them. how many? But nobody really teaches you that they're like go to school, that from this time to that time that you're shut up you. This is just what you do eat your broccoli. I think it's like there's two huge problems, one is now that I'm older cause, you don't you don't know anything as a kid. You can't really criticise it. Also, kick your committee like your ages. If I might ass, I have super ages. as I get older, I get even more ages. You there are. A lot of people might argue that was like man, dude you're, really, twenty two. I can tell every word you said so just seeps of like

two year old. That's good! That's! Ok! I love. Therefore, I could just sake, as you mentioned. This your wife as a fellow streamer molina. He mentioned that this is a source of fights for the two of you that and I could just feel that there is truth to what you're saying, which is like alright you're saying that, because you're We too just wait until you twenty five, and you won't be saying that anymore. Now, that is the most annoying thing for me, yeah yeah, I had ever say that of clear, because it's actually usually true big, because we do go through phases in life and you can understand them. Most. Things are phases, so just in general you can say just just wait. Just wait. You won't see this. You won't feel this way again. I can say that you, you could say that to yourself just wait whatever you're feeling, like just wait if five ten years would be a different person, and you will laugh at the things you takes seriously now that that their cause, you pain, or all that but beware hate here, and that is absolutely the job that

way says I like him. I could literally step into a time machine and I could come back out and see myself as a seventeen year old and I could say: hey, I'm literally. In the future. You see the time machine and I would look at me and I would see the time machine and I would give myself the best advice in the world, even the most successful person. I would ignore All of it, even though it came from myself like this guy sold out the students, what the fuck he's talking about like now figured out better that he must have made some as that's what I would think is a seventy year. I knew as myself in the future. I would just one hundred percent, never believe it and knowing that is very frustrating. But I keep that in mind when I deal with younger people, that's why, like I, never. I always sound stream when I'm talking to you like, there's been stuff with, like sneak goes another grown man called laugh. When I see the way the I see the mistakes they're making oftentimes, because I've made all of these mistakes, sometimes in the most public and horrible ashen ever, but I'm never like a mentor. I'm not gonna sit there and like tell you like whoa. Do this or that or that or that cause like I dunno, if you're going to and the man and honoured condescend to you- and you know you figures are found I'll, be here. If you wanna talk about it, but I've there is one of those stories that there is a company that didn't work with me, because I was very

on defending like very radical she's about language and racial slurs, everything like twenty, two or whatever and there's a company, but we do want a worker sky for an event and after they have said that I, in an article on a website called the company. Was gigabyte they make motherboards? I said fuck gigabyte in the ass. That was the title to my article and it was like well, they don't want to work with me. I'm gonna blow them up and never do anything ever with them again, and it was just like, like looking, I could I now obviously, as a as an older person like hey, you need to pump the brakes and chill you're destroying yourself but yeah as a young person. It's like yeah you're, twenty two. Of course you think that you can whatever do whatever, and as long as you're gonna. What you doing you ve got the whole world behind you and edges. Let's go, you have a history of using offensive language like our word the end words, including the and word with a hard, are calling women bitches talking- about rape sure way. What part of that

You regret what part of that do? Not language is very complicated, to stuff relating to slurs. These men like a whole trajectory of feelings. Hon, everything related to language, so my for you personally and for the internet as a whole, and I don't care about the internet almost for me personally and my early twenty's I'll say like twenty two twenty three and then probably when I first started streaming. My feeling is that any word is just a word and if it hurts you, that's your fault, take risk ability for yourself is probably came from my background of being like a really independent person that just kind of like the mind that I had for everything, and there are basically they were like a collection of experiences that I had that. As I grew I started to realize like okay, while I feel differently about some of these words depending on the context, and I can see how they can affect other people depending on the context, so as a kind of like grown things.

developed a more sophisticated understanding of how different words are used and how they affect people, whether they like it or not, and more poorly, whether I like it or not, and that words can, even if I don't want it to be, they can be a vehicle for emboldening certain types of ideas that I don't want to embolden an yeah. That's and the whole like growth. I've been lucky that in the time that I came up on the internet, I was able to learn these lessons because of our astronomy as seamless as today, I would have been completely destroyed cause. I had insane views on language like ten years ago. Who could talk about the past? We could talk about the present suck, but the past versatile. How do you deal with the fact that there's videos of you in the past saying the end word, including and were the harder. So we generally and wants the contest. Can you give me like yeah valley? What was it won't be the context usually when I lay out this defence? It's not me I wouldn't have used the inward jenny. Whenever I said the inward it was easily and an example of like this is something that, like a racist person would say, I don't think I've ever

on the internet. I have ever called anybody like the emerald with a hard are not because wouldn't have, but just because it wasn't my vocabulary. I played rte ass, real time strategy, We use the f slur for gay people. That's when I use that one, a ton. I've come people that a ton in the asked, so I should actually just as a small tangent tag and that's what I'd like to explore with you, There's a roof was to the language in. The gaming world and their different communities, they have different flavors. of late, the of hate speech. Essentially, and there is also a humour to it, which. really bothers me in a dark way that I haven't been able to really think through, because humorous, seems to be a kind of catalyst for hate, it, to normalize hate. My guy

you say basically think lucy case as a lotta edgy things, but you take something loose, gay says and do it in a non funny way waited over and over and over and keep increasing the hate fullness of it. The trail and somehow you find yours, like Alice in wonderland in a world full of hate where there is no good at evil. It's all the same. In fact the good is to be marked and the evil. Is to be celebrated for the humour of it. Basically not taking the ideas of evil. Syria, and I dont know what it they reveal something about human nature. The you can, let go the moral relativism that can happen. We do that cast off at the same time, I'm a fan of dark humor when done Well, they were. Four people were not familiar. I just want to mention that some of the worst hate speech,

and in our well happens and gaming communities yeah the arm and that's why, come from in certain parts. It's a lot of people, don't remember this or don't know this, because a younger but way back in the day in the late nineties, early mid, thousands of the internet the way that online kind of like shit talk work was. You were just trying to ramp up to the moon Sk, insanely, edgy, crazy stuff? You could say to like provoke a reaction. Have you ever heard of then called the aristocrats at second joke. The joke. Oh yeah, Joe gathers movie on it yep, okay. Basically, every single, like shit, talk back and forth on the internet was like that, like what is the most increasingly depraved era and back, then you didn't get banned for slurs or anything on any of these chatrooms. So it was just like insane world to walk into and I was fully one hundred percent, a part of a product of and a contributor to that work. Probably still goes on the internet in some way and that probably still goes on the internet in may be more passed

fine way only and darker parts of the internet. I think, for the most part, most well compared to back them up to twenty years ago. The internet is way cleaned up now there are still gonna be boards. You can on or parts of the internet, will you see that type of humor, but not no one near as mainstream like back you can open your mike on xbox live, and here are some insane stuff on it. I started nowhere near what you hear tat. I also there are still some elements of escalation that happened that just simply part of human nature on the internet, the because you don't get the feedback of actually hurting people directly so that the troika, like for the walls deeply or do I like what I like you you'll still escalate within, bounds, you're just saying that there's more bows now on ready, yet more bounds, and so on. The pit, the others moderators that cut a yell at you that ban you and so on? If you castles bars, but overall, that basic human instant to escalate? I, especially under the veil of anonymity? Still there I dunno as dark is dark,

I just there's a lot of different ways to look at it and there's different ways. You can break that art like, for instance, like you, mentioned, dark humor, and you say that, like like sometimes dark humorous funny, and sometimes it's not. I think that it's really important to dig into and figure like why certain things are funny. I'm giving examples. Yoga is from your sobered, oh boy, I know that made me laugh and I felt wrong about. Oh no, so this is a I know. I already know what this is: Jeff yeah. So this is a trolley prompt to me. It connects because I I think about the trip it keeps cause. I worked on. Autonomous vehicles of the trolley problem esophageal thought. Experiment is brought up a lot of money when eyes, part of making the decision do. I kill three people here

or five people here in the I makes that decision. How do you do that? Calculus and this this particular there's a there's a deep, so it's satire the reveal some kind of flaw in society. I feel like that's. What dark humor does successful, dark humor does and I love the law hm. I feel like certain there's certain brand of dark humor and I think the reason I think the reason is why it's good or or why it is good humor. I think it's because I don't think necessarily reveals flaws unless I feel like it reveals like a kind of virtue. I think like. If you look at this particular thing explain what we are governed by introducing the titles of the herd opposes. You know what the pick and it says People are going to die either way, but if you flip the lever, the trolley will do a sick, fucking loop first and thus of the top comment is a question saying, which I think is all

a part of the dark humor that successful. Where can I get the gender and ethnic backgrounds of the groups? First and the top answer is both groups are each comprised of five white orphaned, cis male heavy meth users who are consistently in and out of drug rehab, all who identify as right wing extremists humorous. So it's such a sophisticated thing that we engage in humors like really complicated, but I would argue that, like hopefully, the humor here shows the virtue of like this is obvious. the horrible, but that's kind of whites funny it's funny because it such a horrible question to ask like do a kill five people in a boring way or in a really entertaining way and as pets quickly. That's really and then, when you even more like what are the ethnic backgrounds, like, that's even worse, to say that you know. So, if you like, that's like the type of there's a way to you, can engage with dark humor words. I owe flag

it's funny because, if so wrong and so taboo, what we all know that it's wrong a taboo and that's kind of where the shared laughed comes from. So for me, the question that asking the diversity question is the sophists. Go away of revealing the absurdity of asking about diversity? One is talking about. Human life are interesting way that I took. That was, I think it reveals the absurdity of people will weigh different ethnic background so differently when it comes to value of human life. I am action thinking of that, in terms of like a and immigration related question where people are really keen and quick dehumanize like black or brown people selling, the question well have five of them are brown and five are white, while I know which one I'm going to you know pull the lever for. That's how I read that is satirizing that as he exact yes of course, yeah. That's what I mean that that's the flaw to me. At least it showed that

humanity or social networks that are easy to be, outraged and love. The outrage in the chaos that twitter and social networks will pull that lover like they would. They will always try to maximize the fun and theirs. I guess there's a sick aspect too. All the atrocities of the treaties. It happened in the world that we kind of always lean towards the the. rageous narrative, weaved around it the yeah the the one at least it is her the most clicks to the most attention to the most out. Age to all the other costs so that that's almost like a satire of society when they are faced were tragedy

they will maximize trying to think of a word that is not fun but entertainment maximise the entertainment yeah. This is a big criticism I gave especially to conservative crowds. For you know, left leaning, feel everybody. Doesn't I don't like when people blame the media for the state of the media today, I very much believe that everything in society is a feedback loop and that, if you're really unhappy with instead the media, I think that the media is a good reflection of what people want to see, because there is a real. right now in the united states? Were somebody could start a company were all they do is completely factual reporting, they don't have a political slant and then I go these like sensationalist narrative stories and that the company would fail in two weeks. We still want to see that generally people really want to see their like show me, the guy that really believes and when I say the calls the other guy The guy that are screaming on tv or on the radio like this is what I really want, and people will gauge in that, and that feedback loop will continue for generations and then I will simply likewise the meat.

It's so bias. Why is the media driving so many narratives? I was like well. What do you mean? This is exactly what you want to see and that's that's frustrating for me. That's one of my big kind of when I defend establishments or when I talk about like the interplay between the citizen and and all these institutions. We have that the politicians are very much. A reflection of the population and listened chronic societies and I think that people there Much try to elude the personal responsibility or the countries responsibility to why some of them look the way that they do, but that take his back to the word, with a hard are sure why, for the particular examples it I was given for the particular conversations that I was having if you're gonna have challenging conversations around certain words, I think you should probably be able.

them. Otherwise. It feels really ridiculous to me. That's like still believe the arm for calmer, yes, and not like calling people asserts, but but in having conversations about those words, I would say that I simply via, but don't you think, as you said, that using those words actually gives motivation and strength to people of hate in their hearts. I think, depending on the context of what's going on I think that that's going to be a big driver in terms of how people are going to perceive a ticket. So in a conversation about the n word, I don't think I would normally say the n word. He would just talk about the word much the same, that, like an arm like silicon, a movie like an django, they are people use, the inward should not be censored and that movie or in the context movie is being applied in a way where these are good people you're not supposed to like them. That's what the audience walks away with you in that context is different. The conversation physical conversation you

using that word, normalized sit and that normalized, that word is going to make it easier for people who we use that word in Haiti. A way to use the same with the f word this, the seller. If you use that casually and normalize it in a way this not hateful. You using with where does not hateful but the side effect. Is it normalizes it? and people who do use it in a hateful way would be more likely to use it therefore The medical looking at the equation of the number of times the animal Third, the effort is used throughout the world Remember tat is used in a hateful. Why do I think that you are in your part of that problem is even I don't? I don't agree. I understand. I understand the thought process, but I don't know, using certain words. It within different contexts is going to need,

necessarily normalized, like the hateful use of that word, and that is an argument that I've heard people use. Somebody will say like okay well hold on that should never be used ever because, by virtue of you normalizing at it, even in an inoffensive environment, you increase the proclivity for people. use it in a potentially more offensive environment and my argument, I was like. No, I don't think that crossover exists, but if you did want to take that argument- and maybe you do feel this way- I think that you get really problem when you run into communities that do you certain words that people say will they should be allowed to do it? So for us, if you think that any Ignorance of the n word at all- is highly problematic and might increase. Hatred then, like the entire rap industry, has to dramatically change the way that they engage with the edward, and I we see a lot of people that criticize people's use of the we're all going to turn to roberts and say well, you guys can't set either knows who I mean who uses the n word. That's what it's not not just the word, isn't it it? It is context dependent but I would say that you

as a white person. Having conversations the context, there is the kind I would lead to an increase in eight doing and were to be censored in should I know, and I believe there is a wikipedia page on it in his thought censored yeah do. I think you should be in the dictionary. I think the context of casual conversation. Like I said I just below that on the internet, having humor having fun conversations as you have on your streams that leads to the normalization. The word without any educational value would, I would agree with that, I can think of a. I think I would agree that no each size so there's a difference between F, learn and word, and both, I think, should not be used in fun way, but the f word was used in a fun way for long time, pressure up and out the I'll I'll tell you something that bothers me about used streams. What now years

your streams and basically every other stream, is the casualties of the our word. Oh out able ism her off spot able or even even know, is a complicated. I'm not like virtuous I think your ableism isn't virtuous. I mean it gets a legitimate yeah, like I get emails from fans that say like hey like ideal with this particular issue. Every time you use this word kind of feels like you're attacking me like just like, so it's not that it's a valid concept. Jar is just something cuts wrong for me. I, for example, am not bothered by. I am bothered by the excessive use of the word fuck maga, but not in the same way that moderate use of the word fuck. What is it I'm curious and when somebody call somebody in our word, what is it that? What is the feeling that you get that makes you feel bad about. It signals to me that you don't give a damn about people who are struggling in ways that you are not strong

like that that signals to me. I got about the experience of others. You think there are other other words also that could convey like a similar feeling to your work as it feels give drawn up pretty special circle around cause. I magical out. This gives you an uneducated, dumb, fuck your network or like did those where love Ella, that circle keep changing and which can we just find it? I think that's what the

the whole point of the culture subject, trying to feel my feeling is a kind of normal human being that exists in a social context that we're all evolving that language together and just feels wrong, like in a word bitch, for example, it really, but they got a friend on your streams and in general, calling a woman, a stupid bitch really bothers me, but it's not just the word. Bitches contacts like, for example, me personally speak to me personally, like bad ass, bitch is, is different than stupid. Bitch, Charlie, dad badge or something has to offer, then yeah of course way different champ. I think it speaks to a bigger sense of civility and respect for human beings that are not like you. That's what does that about. So I guess what I'm trying to say here is just because people speak in this kind of way in a gaming world and streams.

Does it mean that you like a lot of people. Look at you it doesn't mean young people, especially Does it mean that you don't have the responsibility to serve stand alone from the crowd? Is yours, somebody that values the power of affected discourse and to be effected? Discourse there's some level civility, so you can be so the beacon of civility in that world worse is giving in to the derogatory words, because I yet yet those you have to lift people out of that world. Out of the monk of Am I what I would say is like drama and in an effective discourse of like that. I think that's. One of your missions right is like to inspire the world through conversation and debate through effective discourse. Damn sight I guess I'm just calling out that I did. I think using our word for me personally as a fan that there

believes in your mission. It just makes you look ineffective and bad and uninspiring to young people that look optics. Those young people are going to use those wars that you're, using and they'll do much less effectively tarnish the problem areas The challenge is always just like finding the line, like my my vocabulary shifted dramatically from me even been for like two or three years ago. I think my vocabulary shifted quite a bit as we have like we've kind of gotten rid of some words and some things are kind of coming out and your word is one that is kind of gone out and come back. A gonna come back that one with definite gone back, Fourth, on another different thoughts about and different communities, the internet, this is a man just telling you now for me it cuts and not a social justice way or type it It's pretty hard, you're saying that I'm gonna lose a subscriber from know is that I just can either. I know I just I actually have had to empathize harder because, like maybe this is not a very good person. That's

You feel if you're so carelessly using that word, then maybe you're not actually thinking deeply about the suffering in the world like it to be student of human nature. You really have to think about the humans and other experiences that, unlike your own, now have cars, and so that's the sense I get, but the same time you're you're. Also like the grandpa, then the ages. who's trying to be cool with young kids a lot a lot of the reason young kids look up to you is like you are also no the language of the internet yeah, but I mean it doesn't that's not an excuse to use words that rank shouldn't, be, as I guess, the question that I that I would have cause. It's always a struggle and, to some extent it's kind of happen is let's say that three years ago, I would have said: I'm no longer sang the aura. That's just I'm next going to get rid of that of my vocabulary like is there a chance that today we would be having conversation about like. Why do you call people dumb fox? Is that really appropriate like this? tat at the core of like somebody's like level of intelligence occasion. Opportunities unlifelike is that a worthy euro

I think so. I think that, as the kids cope, you really think so I think I it the words again for co moved in a way where it's like this was okay. Now, aside, there's always, can I see your stand its ground by using listen, you could you you could you could, but I think it is better to use those words if you want to defend the ground. Word, stand on to use them rarely and deliberately verses. How you currently use them, which is two x press and emotion like you that I'm gonna be odyssey, use our word. Not when you your best mature and so that's. Thus generally that could lot of swearing to that by an ocean. No, but you know that our words offensive, you know and as you It is like the. U tell yourself that, like you're, still kind of fighting political correctness by using a little bit when you say not thanks.

I'm trying to think in terms of like, where is the virtue were like there's a whole bunch of arguments, for why some words are. Ok, summers are ok whatever, and I tried it like think more along those lines rather than but like there's gonna, be like a lot of phrases where, like the r word, is, come out, the conversations I know that, like things, my brain is shut down the person scientists, but there's like theirs. Words, also in terms of like it Have you ever hear me silly fucking moron into debate its legged stuff like this covers over there is no way that anything predictors happening pass up plant I think fucking moron is not. I think ineffective is not civil, but it's not it doesn't bother me in the way. It is basically when you've speak in a way that I know, there's a group, that's going to be heard by that. Not only do I think about the hurt that group experiences, I think of you as the lesser intellectual, like as a less a person whose thinking about the world were bother me

the most is just what kind of mindset that inspires in young and young people sure, especially when pee in a public figure and a lot of people look up to you. So I definitely don't think so too. This idea, the r word, is not the battleground of expanding though orton window of discourse- ok, like I, I don't think ill, led to dumb fuck being cancelled of two years later, unless that word is hurting people experience, which I dont foresee that happening, I think legitimately

our word and f slur in calling women bitches its context matters here too, like of course, but just the way I heard you use it. It is not as from emotion and from frustration in it ultimately is rooted in disrespect. I don't, I think, is an effective and of course I could just say I don't know what I'm saying of somebody who had my egg. I admire effective conversations and I admire great humor dark humor wit to me. Oftentimes the use the our word in the way you used in the way the community use. It is none of those things. It contributes not at all to the humor and so on now I can see it might contribute to that to the commodity of that particular group astray. when they normalize the use of that word. You gonna take some of the edge off. Will you forget that there's

and large number other people that don't have the chemistry, the don't hear. The music of the friendship that you have the relationship here, said: the here's, the normalization of a hateful word in an automobile the impact that hateful and then people like me, you show up. you haven't watched much your stuff. It turns me off from leg of a couple of times a contact king came before me Like an I listen to it a little bit me off completely. I don't understand how good your heart is. I don't understand, how the mission of actually do. I d radicalized people, how people like you, and increase the level of good faith discourse

in the world, I didn't understand any of that cause like what I was hearing is pretty rough like the r word type of stuff- and I just feel like the benefit cost analysis is heavy and the costs catcher this size as have to sort of call this out and adding it in a straight up. Think is wrong, but that's male, that's. Why do you think it's wrong because it's hurting people well, without any benefit to you whatsoever, and you say: hurting people deeming the person I'm using it out or do you think there's like nothing about the effect on thursday? The third third group, though, it's good feedback right. I always consider everything, especially I respect you. Let your really smart guy I do something that I always kind of like fight over in terms of like language or like who to attack or what to attack, or what to do is that it's very hard to draw like what boxes are: okay to insult people on versus one art, so, for instance, I call somebody like a nazi with a lot of vitriol. I am okay with every single nazi being negatively affected by that, because

in that category, intrinsically calls upon at some level of more condemnation from me right whereas like if I am out there, I try not to do like image related, jokes right. I don't want to call you like. Oh you're, a fat fucking loser, because it's lots of people that are fat, throw away where no one your bad and I want them, I'm not trying to call you out or like an insult you so there's a lot of arm, you say: cost benefit I, like I like a lot of collateral damage from a word like that, where there is no purpose in doing that, and so words, are easy to get rid of their off the table, rank ass slur and where, that, like these are not words, you call people, because here there's so much collateral, not worth them. We ve got some words where it's like. If you have some former like mental thing, it is a bad thing you're, not a bad person, but just using that word could feel like a collateral damage to those people and then his other categories of world so like. If I say that, like on this person is like there, if it's a stupid, fucking republic, right he's. Probably some republicans that aren't dumb that I dont want to feel called out by that, like are those types of phrases that you think should be completely removed as well or

I'm gonna, curious, build this completely removed. Just a were clear now an hour for industry it's a ship owner, I'm not even talking as I'm just have just a person like emotionally like removed, is the wrong word. The like I care about, like I'm, not trying to listen to people on the internet, saying that you shouldn't say that word as not good. I mean I'm trying to look to your. Mind and heart facing we're talking today. Is your betraying your gift, you better than this. do you think it's indicative of like a more flip of thought process where it's like the only way. You can say that word as, if you're, ignoring the hurt and suffering of those people and if you're somebody a thousand those people you're ignoring the state of language because they think you're getting to the point is, if not a single word about, like a is music, and I just feel like there is, always runs out. It's a strong! No there ruins the melody gotcha and I don't think I can

say you know, you shouldn't use the r word or whatever and speaking to I'm just listen. Music and reviewing the final result is not necessarily is maybe one used the word, the r word strategically or part of the actual like when you ve built up a camaraderie that sandwiched in in an like some love, but then you should try to we'll. I guess you're talking about a lot of. It is a bunch of drama. You have a you of friends with whom you're worrying and stuff and they're all a little bit beautifully insane and you said that you are becoming more and more insane is beautiful, watches the human condition laid before us wonderful. Some of that is swearing, and so on. So is a tricky thing, but the whole skill of discourse just like with dark, humours walk into line and you feel like it, sir.

we use the r word and I don't want to die in that garage cause. I don't think it's that that represent like there's certain things like that. It feels like it ruins the music god. I don't you don't sound like a dumb republican or Da Dum dum I don't yeah that russia, too little bit depends on how you use it you can be lazy with that. Now you don't like even overuse of the word, I think bots is what's used for people who don't think or something I don't actually know the definition I'm offended on the half robots and that might be a compliment soon perfectly adequate. What I guess it means you don't think yeah you're, like an npc, you just got embassy again, I'm a fan of behalf of mp sees. I come myself as one with there's a sense if you say bots too much that you're just dismissing people like everything I say, is right and even that greece, when these are bought at, let's lazy to sometimes you're funny, sometimes its effective. Basically

it's saying a lot of people in the mainstream media or something like that are bots. Okay, that's a little bit of that is affect it, but too much it becomes ineffective and I'm trying to speak to that yeah. I am just the reason. We're highlighting clear examples like the edward Joe rogan had to contend with that of area. I think it's ineffective and makes you less affected the discourse but like like you, ve, talked about me tat language. The trick one size hard, because you talk about like a striking a melody has not one melita. That sounds good to everyone. But there are probably certain notes that like if you got rid of them everywhere- It's not going to like it about as much and you don't really lose anything there's a whole other part of an audience that might be more willing to listen and, of course, it's not about losing the magic of that melody. Like you, don't want to be vanilla. I just feel like there's stuff that doesn't need to be there yeah for sure it's fun but then again you're the only thing that people

understand that might be listening to this. Your streaming many hours a day for many years and writes at eleven or twelve. I think yeah started in two thousand and ten, and so one of the things that people can do is just clip out anything you you're going through the full human experience of emotion. Anger, fear frustration. All of it so, of course, is going to be a moment's weena. The bus version is of anything else to say about the language. It's complicated. Am I I'm sorry was trying to figure it out their opinions that I have habit of change throughout the years. It's possible that The r word has always been the next one on the chopping block that we're all kind of looking at, but people always worried about that treadmill, but it's possible in a year or two will have a different Fiona or olive changed away. Some of the words I use are that yeah. It's definitely like a it's always a work in progress, there's always like different communities that feel different ways, but different words, yeah yeah, but you acknowledge it. There people out there. There never gonna talk to you.

Then? Never gonna! Think of you the good man, because he used a on n word with hard r publicly in the past I mean yeah, those people exist, but I'm in it. There are some people that are beyond my reach, which I'm ok, with that, there's going to be some people because of things that have been vault or even ideas that I have now that might make them beyond my reach, somebody said earlier is right sure I think the goal is to like identify. What are the elements that you can cut out that aren't integral to your message. I could be alienating to more people, and those are probably the things you identify, but You can get lost in yourself or law. on the internet or law. Can I do you, know the outside of yourself, if you're, trying to appeal to every single person has never gonna be the case and fur. Why I actually I like that I've had the journey that I've had on the internet, that you can find me sang and defending a lot of insane stuff ten years ago concerning it like a level progress, and I think I do a lot of respect and by under certain communities where it's like, I'm not sure, some random dude telling you that,

like. Oh you shouldn't say you know the f word, the n word like I'm a guy, that's been there, that's done it, that's defended it and you can see my whole past. My whole history is laid bare for you to watch. Every of you know thousands of hours of it, but I can show that, like there's growth and evolution and change that can happen some. Yet in your honest about that, girl threw his tricky thing. People just call bring up stuff from your path pressure at. I hope we figure out as the civilization a mechanism to clearly say this was this. Is me two years ago? This is me five years ago our different person like because he doesn't care about that. This social mechanisms that brings stuff he doesn't care about that. I think one stupid thing you say it becomes. The scarlet letter- and I don't know how fight. That is tricky to fight that we ve seen it. Black? Yes, when tangier on the bench- and he says a person, a smart, but people are stupid, dumb finicky, animal animals or whatever.

something that changes for human dynamics when there is a group of people that make us so hard control I getting one on one. Anybody can sit across on somebody and admit to some horrible stuff. I used to be I abused my husband when I was you know twenty and I'm thirty. Five- and I see it's wrong- I did this- I was addicted to whatever, and you know I made these mistakes a one on one, it's always easy, but in in group environments, that and group out group tribal a stick thing of like identity. one thing and then coming to destroy a person's life is like he's such a huge like impulse. We have anything. Probably when we were like hunter gatherer is in the forests, probably good cause. Would you really want to push weird people out or anything like that, but now on the internet we can hot for any dissenting opinion and just with ruthless precision destroy somebody's life over. It is pretty soon a dynamic. I think one of the mechanism that could fix it is make it super easy for each.

Does your person to analyze all the stupid shit they themselves have said in the past a full recording, because I think people are just honestly into very rosy picture to their own brain of of who they have been in the past. The car is weakened, I have empathy for the fact that WU says stupid shit over drunk the the ridiculous things. You said the offensive things he might have said if, as the things he might have done, I did just feel like I will give us the ammunition to have empathy, others like ok, this guy five years ago said this may be. That doesn't represent the who doesn't represent, who they are any more than stuff. I said five years ago represents who I am today now I feel like technology can actually enable maybe I'll you're talking about more more courting a more somewhat feeble already wary of Adam? Is a double edged sword? I think this there is going to be more more accordingly to figure out how to do that with the respects. People. Privacy

gives them ownership of their data on I've of look at the, search history of done on Google, which, for most people available like your google search history as fastening wash the evolution of a human being like we doesn't seem like the same person like a different person for sure It is it's weird that it's also hard to with the internet. Today, I'm going to be ageist again, but, like now, all of the people are thrown together. You know, whereas, like like, I don't want a twenty seven well, judging though he usually gets fifteen or sixteen year old, like obviously he's in highschool like there is that story that came out of the there is a kid that saved the recording of and he was like some white girl. I think she like got her drivers as issues like, I can drive now and words with the a or whatever is dumped, you should have said it but think she was like fifteen or sixteen when she tick tock this or whatever, and he held onto that recording till she applied and got accepted. college three years later and then he released it together kicked out of college anyway? Damn everything I had ever said as like fifteen sixteen year old was like immortalized on the internet, my eye, what my life would have even begun and those

insanely high standards to hold pupil to, not that, like obvious, you shouldn't be saying those you should be sanctioned words or whatever, but you have to be able to make mistakes and adolescents like everybody we all dead, everybody did growing up, you know. We think there is so much massage any industry. the community, and how can you find it? you you, ve shown of interest in fighting it, try to greece or eliminate massage any from your community, really difficult I think that eliminating racism is easier than eliminating misogyny an alternating on anywhere you're setting, fundamentally under so much difference? We like white people and black people and brown people an asian pupil. ever mina with different cultures to stop at the end of the day. Well, people, but I think there are differences between men and women like throughout all of

like all of history and time and then even today, in every culture and when, when real differences do exist, it's harder to account for them. In a way that can we have conversations with each other without it becoming very gendered in a negative way, negative way generally someday be illegal. Massage minister went it, of course it's clear to me that it so difficult to arm to avoid the negative gendering versus the positive, because there's a lot of positive to the detention deserting the different gender on me in this particular moment in history, its not, but this trivial to me. Their racism is easier to eliminate as an interesting hypothesis. Just there's more biological difference, She met women. There is this: to eliminate, but I don't know Just try. I hear this a lot. I feel like a rather sore, but I need to get a better source of repeated every robot. I have heard that like in the: u s: military, for instance, they've gotten

exceedingly well. They do an extremely good job at getting different people of different races to integrate, and it's like not a huge problem once your through basic training, all the train, everything but for different sex as if still represents a significant problem. The military hasn't figure it out and, I sure looks like, but what's the military during his if something was solvable. I can we sleep for farmers might be healthy if we could have said the miller I would now in our second alura, sometimes lemme see their integration, but I'm in my bed other issues there that make it yeah. It feels like the military has a very particular copper. Cheyenne could be. The actual task at hand might bias the difficulty of the process potentially, as there has been a lot of interesting talk, about leg. Women integrating into male groups, and how do you do this in a way where everybody is here, with the outcome- and there is not like issues

during the period of spoke about this a little bit and then workplace culture speaks about this vet? Would you happen to remember, I want to say was like five or ten years ago there was a big tech conference and there were two guys behind a woman, and they made a joke about like a usb dongle like dangle was a dick and this woman turned around she. Tweeted pictures of them spoke about like misogyny of that, and then every that blew up into a huge ordeal that, like oh yeah there. There is this. This is interesting phenomenon that. and a less misogynistic and more inclusive workplace environment. Some women might end up feeling worse. Because in a more misogynist environment or thing like ok, that's a woman, she doesn't get our. or a minute treat her in a very indifferent. You know very dispassionate cold. And whatever and then I gonna have my my boys over here and then you've got like these environments, where they're little bit more warmer and it's like oh cool, where bring this woman into our environment, ergonomic all the same types of light, crass jokes we did before and it's actually work, now, another woman feels even more otherwise I, oh my god, what you talk like this. I think that internet community

is especially online ones that do like political debate. Video games are very much like big boys clubs. So Not enough to just say you can't be to get rid of rid of massage any there's be an be effect on women is a lot of like of that behaviour. Is that you have to account for it account for gotta. You can like pushed that back, and that is a very, very, very challenging thing to do so. I like to deal with concrete examples mars. Here's a concrete example and is like a recent initiative. Am I committed cause I'm trying to like be because misogyny has been anywhere in the internet, I'm curious while their wasted. I could push my community. This I don't think you should almost ever make a comment on a woman's appearance ever if they're appearing at like some political or professional manner. Even if it's a positive comment, I think it's equally bad to a negative comment. It's just never good to do and that's kind of an unintuitive thing, because it's like, while woman appears wow she's, really cute. It seems like a nice comment, you're being nice, you know she looks cuter, but it's like it's not at all the point of why she's there, and just by saying that you're kind of like otherizing her as like a person to like think she looks good rather than listening to her. and she has to say you know what,

There's a lot of stuff that you're saying is apart massaging it's obvious. like any woman, would tell you that woman well yeah, but they're, not only spaces economic. I went on. I think what that requires. His empathy. you need you don't need you to consider the the female experience. That's it you have to either read about or talk we women do you learn like the longing for is very easy to learn. It feels like just the level of social skill. Oftentimes in internet means is quite low. I disagree. I don't like to say here is the problem with empathy. Is it's very hard to have empathy for experiences that are so outside of your own? It? Well, maybe some people there might be some people get here. I can There is a lot of stuff that I had to learn. Women are half the population, but the women they told their different of egypt

it's so here here when we talk about guy and resolve this, our total their daughter, so here's an x Y, so especially from me, my archetype, makes up a lot of the internet, white man There's never been appoint the name of a beautiful woman who might be dancer. What's the black, storing from new orleans or from I thought that through yet army at its ambiguous, like an open Well, they also world. I want you to project whatever it wherever you want destiny of the dancer to be from that's in your mind, okay, alright I'll, save that for later tonight, okay, as a white guy there, I don't know if there's ever been a spot that I've been in where I've made been made to feel like. I don't belong there, just by virtue of who I am. I don't. I actually don't like it's impossible for me to empathize that, because I don't even have that experience if you go back eight nine years, one of the big issues that came up was harassment in gaming against women, and I was one of the big two

waiters against that saying that, like sure, women might get harassment, but everybody gets harassment if you're a woman and you're in gaming, and you get harassed, congratulations you're being treated like a man. What you're actually asking for is for us to actually treat you different. You don't want to be insulted, you don't want to be treated like a man and that's actually misogyny as women making that argument you still stand by that. Isn't a promo video now. I'm just kidding well, okay, on salon a little it's a little. While I disagree with this or okay, that's good! You should a little. While later I had a friend jessica, super cool girl, we go to play games. She was between jobs. She's, like I got like two months and we're going to francisco and I'm like. Okay, this is awesome. Let's do it cs, go counter strike global offensive, shooter game, fps, microphones. First day we start playing again hopping,

first game. Obviously, she talks everybody making is that a twelve year old boy? Why aren't you making sandwiches blah blah blah yeah? Ok, whatever player? First game players? Second, game, same jokes, third, game? Fourth game by, like the fourth or fifth game, I was actually starting to feel triggered like every time the game stutters like. Can you just like talk so he can get over like the stupid. Fucking jokes is so fucking stupid and you hear the same fucking joke every single time and it took one day of that experience for me to realize it's not about being insulted. It's like this othering feeling that you don't belong. I never felt that because I'm a white guy like it just not to be like virtue signaling so like there's, just there's no places where, like you're white, you don't belong here, you're a guy. You don't belong here like I've, never felt that non inclusion and playing with her there's a different feeling when it's the same types of jokes coming from a group of people to make you feel like you don't belong, there were was like damn this actually feels really bad and it feels bad in a different way where it's like. If you call me MIKE nfc, or any other type of swear word or insult

like yeah. You can call me that, but at the end of the day, like we're all kind of the same raw white dudes, and we call each other names but like this is a woman, and this is not her place and she doesn't belong here kind of the analogy that I would make, because I hope, after getting these express our limits afterwards. If I try You that there is another guy in a room and you need to think of the worst insults ever for that. without ever knowing anything about them are meeting them. If I tell you that it took a white straight guy and you have to write insults, you're fucked Maybe you do like school shooter, not really much. You can say at the end of the day, but if I tell you it's a woman who We could. There are so many different jokes and you're right if it's a black person, so many different racist things. We can said he sure I can come up with a lot of stuff for a white guy in terms of stuff that is just intrinsic to him. Being a white guy yeah like there's, really wait a minute. We talking about there's a lot. The internet has sharpened that sword in terms of like jokes that are targeted at his sex, sells virgin

weak, some of the of virgin, maybe yeah. That's getting there sure. That's for sure of it's recent, though sorry, I'm older, on the internet. We didn't have those words way back then, but that was when I was making these analogies that insulin. For my day we didn't have general insoles back then none of us had sex. We just accept that we were all computer gamers. Nobody had sex and play video games back. Then. Okay, people don't remember that there wasn't the big bang theory. You were just a loser. That was stuck as you even know. Sex exists. Is yeah then instantly had to download sexual pictures. And these two minutes- and you didn't even know if you already have the right thing by the time it finished loading. But what I'm saying is that like okay, so you think you agree that like, if somebody gives you like a race like a black person who's a woman, we can write like very cutting scathing like insults for that person that are very authorizing or words. That would really hurt yeah that are very cutting to the person but like for a white guy and it's kind of hard, because it's like that's like the def,

there's not as much otherizing of those people yeah. So that's kind of like the insults you have from white guy, the white guy. The insults are much harsher. So when you start to apply the same kind of harshness to other groups, you can make them feel like they really don't belong and that other rising is something that's very hard for me. I can't really empathize legs never felt it, so I have to intellectualism and the sympathize with it. It's like a whole process. I have to go through and then I try to walk other people through that cause if your wife on the internet, which is a lot of the internet, you really don't know that feel that you never felt like that before, yes You are now in a leadership position. Grout grandpa destiny. So that's a lot of people come to you for that, for that sort of pathway, to empathy now the otherwise me you have felt other eyes in your. U you mentioned a high school people like not being. yeah but those who always for things that, like it's different to insult somebody for not immutable characteristic, I ok, you think poorly bout me, because I'm not enough money right on money, but I could get more money and I could change that, but it still

For somebody to really attack you for, like your gender or attack, you feel like you're race, a lot of the attacks that hit the hardest. not about gender. It's it's! I! I do think that they're, like the way women are attacked on the internet. It's the same kind of attacks. You would do towards other guys, but you go harsher. Filling the fundamentally different, I feel like attacking guys, I'm not usually attacking you, unlike the virtue of you being a guy, but like it's a woman issues. Timing typing out, like your boyfriend, type that for you

like what are you doing here like? Don't you shouldn't be trying to find a husband or, like all you like, a stupid, color ghostwriting only fans riddled with the stupidity, the intelligence ass, but this was attacked yeah, but it's so much different, like you call a guy stupid, but that's because he's a guy that's being stupid, but when you call a woman's too, but she stupid because she's a woman you, but I honestly think that women are called stupid more than men on the internet, but I ve got nothin to do like the attack is not gendered. It's the gender inspires in increased level of attack. I feel like it has gendered. I wish we had Didn't this. Have you ever heard of the xkcd comics? Yes, the really good comic where and I this is something that I've dealt with a lot in my community of a guy there's a guy at a board and he fucks up a math equation and it's like wow you suck at math and then the next panelists there's a girl that does it and she fucks it up, and it's like wow women suck at math and there's like

the feeling that happens where when I bring on- and I won't use names but they're like you to people that are brought on that, have crazy opinions and when they're men that person is crazy. Oh my god, he said the crazy stuff he's so dummy, so crazy, so stupid but when it's a woman, it's like. Oh, my god. What do you bring dumb women here? Why do so many women on the internet, crazy opinions, there's a different like minority character that has to like extended and like represent like they're a whole group where, like white men, don't typically have to speaking of group sources? Individuals, yes, but then, when I feel happens, is then another and from that group comes another woman comes and people before she says anything already feel like they're ready without attack crusher, but are ready for the attackers she's a woman a collar she stupid because you do not because she says something of a just cause: she's a woman. So I got the group their brain accumulates all the negative characteristics of the individuals they ve met, not the past.

the negative. It is like this balls thickness and then that becomes the bias for there. Judgment of a new person that comes with why men there's more of a blank slate in terms of bias, gather analyzed the poorest. as with any any other minority group, they're, basically make a judgment based on the negative characteristics of the individuals, the men, the past. I just that leads to a system where you're just harsher towards minority groups and towards women. How do you solve the the for the most important thing for any problem ever is step. One is to be aware of it. If you're not aware of it, then you're hopelessly lost at sea, but though yeah the first thing I like to say she's like be aware of it, like I've, had there's a girl that I've had on recently and she says a lotto in my opinion. it's kind of crazy things, but people will use her as like. This is why women shouldn't be here. This is like she's, crazy and she's, a woman blah blah blah, but I can bring on a guy This is similarly dump thinks he's evaluated on its own merits, because it's a guy, you know, there's never ever ever been a case where brought a stupid guy on stream and everybody's, like this guy

me hate men. This guy makes me hate, wipe it. That has never happen, but then there like other women that come on and it's like now? I know why and cells exist or I totally understand where red pill ideology comes from. You know, and even if the statements are kind of true when making these observations over and over and over and over again, it did damages your ability to individually perceived somebody and then to people to make the same statements. One can be pursued more harshly. Just because of that. My group, vice you ve, got built up. I think there's something while stream you they're just brings out of peace like you have to talk right, seven hours you like I will have a psychological issues and complexities that I have I'm going to explore that magnify magnify in the work and then it's the joy. As you talked about the memetic theories of gerardi and like whatever the things that are very similar in enough you going to magnify the complex that you haven't, you got to explore the all the different perspectives on those of a conflict, and I mean I don't know if it's just anecdotal but

it's nice to have women on stream, and I think that dynamic do you guys have is as as wonderful as will the interesting, so It's just a female voice and generate I love any woman in the park ass. The female voice I feel like is under heard and the internet pressure, and I love the internet to be a place where women feel safe. The speed are given that you're look. We talked about a progressive with nonstandard progressive use, see your very pro free speech pro capitalism. So given that is very interesting, that you're also pro establishment and prostitution right now. If you look at the world is a significant distrust of institutions, at least in some public intellectual discourse,

What is the nature of your support for government and institutions can make the case for and against them. Broadly speaking, there is a synergistic effect when to humans come together. If I can speak very broadly in terms of say utility, ok, my happiness with one person might be ten, the happens, a person might be ten when they come together. It's like fifty between the two of us there's like the synergistic effect when humans work together. That The sum is greater than all the individual parts, whatever they suck an emergent thing. That happens there there's a capacity as a possibility of that. Yet while possibility sure things could go really wrong, there could be a cannibalistic. Try that all each other for sure, but for the purpose of this there's other failure modes but yeah, okay, sure yeah for the for the, but what I think, broad

speaking here? Are you gonna be the well actually guy? I gave you wanta get well, acts will actually inside I annabelle as yet. There is no war at all causing true, sometimes things to go, but I think, broadly speaking, the fact that you are sitting here, including that you'd make I am sitting here on an airplane that I don't know how to fly a bill like right. There is a lot of cool stuff that happens when people come together and they make civilizations and part of that civilization. Building is the fact that we can specialize and it's the fact that we can offload a bunch of trust on to third parties, that we delegate the power to make important decisions about our lives right I don't know anything about how to like build like a combustion engine, but I know that when I push the button my car it's going to drive around and the fumes aren't going to kill me and I can park it in garages and the building's not going to collapse and the only reason all of this works is because of offloaded a lot of trust under these third party things, and I would say that the pillars of these third party things that society is built on are roughly speaking, institutions, so

might be the institution of peer review for scientific articles. It might be the institute. Of voting for government right or or that, the that the ability for us to vote on that whole process in my all the FDA, like all of the institutions are things that they need to exist because we don't have the time or the capability to intervene. We sought to all of us all of these things on individual. We have two reliance and print ready to do it, ok, see you believe at scale. The one word together or greater than the sum of our parts. That's the case for institutions absolute! What about the inefficiencies of beer? see. If there's some ass broke, one at scale, different and come into play than they do when there's two people together to well that love each other, the birds and the bees There are some aspect at least more cannibalism at scale, yet alike.

Corruption, inefficiencies that due to bureaucracy and so on, bureaucracy, which is not. I hate it when people try to save bureaucracy as government, because bureaucracy exists, a ton in private environments as well right and businesses, and everything on bureaucracy introduces its own set of problems, but I mean Bureaucracy is necessary because its coordinating all the underlying things and ordered in order to create something that's greater than the sum of its parts right, like all of The software developers in the world are useless without being paired with good designers in order to make their products usable by a person and the coordination of those people and the coordination of increasingly more and more things necessitate some level of bureaucracy. I think we always say bureaucracy when it's like a bad. It's like a slow ramos like you're, a beer, a bureaucrat you're bureaucratic, the bureaucracy, a slowing of thing down, as I shared the bureaucracy, slows things down, but bureaucracy also gives us things like no safe medicine and safe water to drink from us of the? U s or safe buildings, television or save cars to drive some, so the man

integers institution verses. Like the software developers, designers manages the bureaucracy, the the reason bureaucracies used as a slur. is that something about human nature leads to bureaucracy. often growing growing indefinitely sometimes come any less and less efficient without a for me. This is work. Capitalism can comment that cap, wasn't puts pressure on the bureaucracy not to grow too much, because you want to be actually be useful, but not large gap and to be a certain size have court is to be the minimum size to get the job done, and this of capitalism provides. That mechanism

Government does not always so that the criticism of government of institutions where it can grow without a significant mechanism that says there's a costly bureaucracy. That's not be accounted for here, which is paying for the increasing size, a government without the benefit yeah government as a special institution, because it doesn't have to show itself to be financially viable and we kind of live in a capitalist economy with its general the case, so government gets its powers from the votes from the people, which This is a whole new set of possible positives and possible negatives rain having something, for instance, that gives food or sheltered homeless people. Maybe I don't want that to have to run at a profit. and but giving you know an organization that can self justify it's budgets perpetually and indefinitely growing. Maybe that's not the best thing yet we got. We always have to figure out how to do the constraints there, but whatever

the corrupting nature of power that comes with institutions as well. Absolutely so, then you better picture your style of institution very carefully, I think that the democratic institution we haven't you notices today, I think works very well, but I mean other styles of governor that have been tried in the past that I think lend themselves more to corruption, not to say that by the way there is not corruption in the united states. Of course, there's going to be varying levels of corruption at like all and at all levels, but you are you, ran into this interesting problem where authoritarian regimes can act with ruthless precision and swiftness, because they will have to ask any questions. They just do doo doo, doo, doo and that's it. But the problem is, I it's an authoritarian regime there prone to missteps their slow to respond to changing or having needs there is an interesting study was put in a while ago that show that, like every single famine that happened around the world, almost all ninety eight percent of them happen under a

Riparian regimes were like freedom of speech, is very limited. It's very rare for a family to happen under our democracy, because press and everything makes the government more responsive to the needs of the people. Power can corrupt their levels of corruption, but you have to have like a system of checks and balances on all of these different levels to make sure doesn't run off the rails. I guess and do a sick, looped lupin, you know: half the population cuts lace callback, there's a lotta be with a list that will listen to you say that the democracy in the united states is, completed their wealth and they will spit out the drink if their drink and drink and be very upset. Can you make the case that there are right in IRAN? Can I make the call in the few men there right yet will still man for them is that people have a lot of problems. On the a day and when they look and they see what government is doing, they might see potholes outside their house homeless, people all over their downtown and the united states is too proved. Another acts billion amount of dollars for ukraine, or

we might be living in a city where half the factors are shut down a lot of their people out of work. But the president is on the tv talking about how to find jobs for immigrants coming in from mexico and for these people they have problems that exist in their lives or some of them are paying taxes to alleviate these problems, and then we listen to that when they listened to the government. Talk feels like the government is not responding to the needs that they have and then that's one problem, then, on top of that, you've got all of these people working in alternative media that can show you will look at this politician, wasting this much money or look at him w. You can hear there. Look at Hillary Clinton, saying she's got a private position in a public position. Look at how all these politicians have family members that are getting rich because of their relationships with people and just look at the revolving door between capitalist companies and the government. How can you look at all of that? Take into account the governments not responding to your needs and then really feel like? It is a government by the people and for the people know. This was very good. Good steel, men and good cos How can you? How can you? How can you tell the there not just politicians they care more about continuously

The elections verses being running government. They should care about winning lectures ass. The first misconception logic: it will save this guy only cares about getting voted in this. It's like he doesn't even believe about in in fracking or abortion. He just changed his opinion to get voted in anytime. Somebody says that you should say: that's really good. You want them to change their opinions, so they get put in and that's the whole point of a democracy. you, don't want them to be remained obstinate. You don't want him to say I'm not changing my opinion about whether people want you want them to evolve and adopt new opinions based on what the population their constituents are voting for. That put the cynical take is that they're, the on the surface searching in opinion, but that there is a boy's club were boys means the elite that under in the smoke filled rooms in secret, there

actually have their own agenda and they're following that agenda and they're just saying anything publicly to placate the public based on whatever the the new trends are here, so he could take apart yeah. I understand somebody asked me this question and it flipped. I I one aided completely I was a Bernie Sanders sport on twenty sixteen and my by single issue. Voting thing was lobbying. I thought that lobby the government's corrupt they want responded and his people. It was completely destroyed my faith in government everything, and I have one question Oppose me by conservative that used to come on my stream and shout me, and he said, and then he asked me: can you think of any any popular They know that the american public has that the government is unresponsive to, as are some big piece of legislation, a policy or whatever that people want the government isn't doing. We asked me that I can think of a single good answer. Unlike our cheese is good in theirs. Drugs is not directly down.

I think, legalization of drug classic hack of iowa, oh shoot, you're doing the Joe rogan, then you push it back as I brought up wheat go ahead, I'm sorry They have become meme. I don't even want to interrupt you you're, not gonna, get This means upon these upon music and go with you know, cause people bring up. Ok, there's no issues. There's no issue If the government is not representing all of the public, so here is the issue, so somebody will bring up like well what about the legalization of drugs? Okay, the first issue people have is one they look at national polling very few, things are decided on a national level. So that's the first huge mistake, arguably blm made mistakes made mistakes in this arena where they sing like wisely. Doing anything about policing, thoroughgoing

can't do anything about policing. That is going to be your tottenham's any of your stig on sunday, your local city government, the people that like elect like your chief of armed police, your police, commissioner, that's coming from your mere right, so you've got people looking one at the wrong parts of the government, even figure out the solution. The problem too often times for pulling the questions are vague enough that you can pull very high, but when you get into the weeds, one things, no pun intended and you start to realize. Like oh shoot, this is more common than I thought. I don't know the numbers in particular for legalization of marijuana, but this one I'm going to guess the case. If you poll and you say, should we legalise marijuana? That number might pull it like sixty five, seventy percent, but that's including people it or, if ever, medical, marijuana, you were to pull like. Should we legalise? Should we

decriminalized recreational use of marijuana. That number might drop to like fifty two percent and then, if you pull like, should we completely legalize majesty cause but clearly legalize recreational marijuana and I remained dropped like forty per cent. There's like all these different ways, you can polar and issues where you're like. Oh no, we broadly agree on this topic. When you really figure we'll do you? Do we really agree, or is it just like broad centers around a thing: that's never going to show up like in a piece of legislation, a really good example, one example I do know as socialized healthcare. I think, if you pulled there was a time a few years ago. Where have you poll america? Do you think every american citizen should have access to like free healthcare? I think that answer that pull like seventy four per cent. Yes, but when you asked, should the government be the sole provider of healthcare it dropped like twenty six per cent dropped fifty points and you could see it was both asking questions about single payer, but the way that was asked was so different

Even if you all looks like there's consensus, does not nearly as much consensus, people think right sort. I guess diego. We arrive at you're right, you're, right, you're, right, you're, right the polls, the way you ask Polish, really matters only ask: should the guy whether it be in charge of a thing that also buys the answer raided day, because Such a negative experience with government, a dog site. That runs the thing, but sometimes sometimes I think if you dig in, if you have one our conversation with each individual smith- I think that you will understand that. Yes, there is support for socialized medicine. That is not the argument ass being made, though What do you mean for doing this to me like? If you just ask a conservative like what about single payer they're, going to tell you no, you might be able to build up to an argument for it, but you're going to have to make the case for it than have it a thought. We're talking about the feeling deep inside your mind and heart: does the government represent that

so. It's not like some shallow surface layer, public opinion. Does the government effectively represent what people want Not a shallow survey but a deeply what they want to not issued out familiar with the debates over healthcare lets me they look at an easier one. Turkey, maybe essays harder war war is a really good example. The government was very responsive, I think, to the people. You thanks also Iraq, then the government didn't manipulate public opinion. There is an argument to be made that they did in terms of like w m d and everything. But after nine eleven were you in the united states, after nine eleven. After nine, Haven't I legitimate accusatory, I wonder where you and then Second, okay, cool. I have the evidence in the shower This is now carry a lot very defensive, Irena, very strange

I can do it, I think after nine eleven we could have gone to country. We could have gone to war with any country in the world where we would, if we were ready, because all of america was like, oh my god, and they pointed to iraq- and you know the reasons for the wmds was kind of dumb, but I don't think we even knew wmd scot I regret to say you know what I'm saying was giving medical aid taliban Al Qaeda. iraq, let's go and we would have gone for it. But post Iraq, Iraq was for a while popular and then became obviously deeply unpopular, iraq and afghanistan, and I think you could see that influence other foreign policy that the united states had. For instance, we opted more towards like drone warfare than troops on the ground for places like yemen, and we opted more towards like kind of like sending money and help instead of boots on the ground, for places like syria and- and I think A lot of that was kind of in response to how unpopular the iraq stuff it became, and when you look at a lot of elections afterwards, even for obama alike, one of the defining characteristics of a lot of campaigns were like I'm in a close guantanamo bay. A minute get us out of foreign wars. Even

Trump, I'm going into an ambient I'm not going to stop doing all this weird stuff, the middle east, but they didn't still withdraw from the guest and they withdraw, but they definitely liked tapered off and weren't like as aggressively pushing those types of conflicts as they knew it was unpopular. But I think if you also consider perfect information or are good information, if you ask a lot of people, Are you ok spending this amount of money money for this purpose a mill? the conflict in iraq and afghanistan. I think almost from the very beginning it was seen. No after nine eleven filling be like a few days after nine eleven wait, never worried what was others there, some means, and so on. Yes, but the nature. The public support for the war was their public support thousand three, which had one when the invasion happen. I feel a connection There was a lot I remember seeing it on, but though I also lived in a republican household, and I was not very like media savvy other. I don't know if the nature of the public supported to do w m d's or with nine eleven cause, the weird

without wmds, but I wonder what what is the name if you were to pull people and lets say happen Ethically, there was above fifty percent support. For the war would be the nature that support and due to what degrees the government actually representing the will of the people verses some complex mechanism like the military industrial complex is monopoly, the narrative, thus controlling public opinion, and there's the media, that gets a lot of attention but being divided and how their shaping the narrative- but through the mechanism of division. So what does a lot of complicated things out? Yes, if not just like the people, and then the government and the dust for sure. I agree that there are gonna, be different elements have placed and how much of those elements that led us astray can be. It repeated to the largeness through the different systems so and the different institutions like

the media, institutions and government, the institute Does it have a monopoly on violence? Let's put it this way, which is what one way to define government sure it's cover there's nothing to be different institutions at play. I, but I think that lake will all I would say is they can my original point when there? comes like broad consensus, rent a thing. I think the government usually follows. I gonna fight is going to follow more often than not, but I think that a lot of time americans think that there's more consensus run certain issues. There actually are I'm so you really good example run that war point to block cause like the lowest dip in violence. Approval writing. His shirt was right after he pulled out of afghanistan, which I think, if I would have asked people like a year before, like let's assume that we could pull out of afghanistan and the government's probably going to collapse after we leave, because they just don't have the will to fight the none of the for then it just not the second work, but like no americans are gonna die, maybe a couple

What about like? No american, I doubt going to Afghanistan, would you support that and think? Broadly speaking, I think I think, MIKE more than sixty or seventy percent of our exit, like yeah that'd, be fine, but then, when it actually plays on tv, when we see the people hang onto the planes when we see like helicopter embassies, some of the courts and politicians will now it's like. Oh my god, this was horrible and was so botched and it was felt like it could have gone. So much better than what could it have gone better like? Maybe maybe not, but I mean it seems like big, you can have consensus, remsen opinion, but the way that things play out and the way the people actually feel factually way way way more complex ed and there's not usually this broad consensus opinion. What are ya got I'd like to believe that in just a labour cards on the table. I have faith in the power of effective government. I just have a lot of concern about what happens as institutions. one size for have a lot to worry about the net natural corrupting influence on the

individuals and on the system as a whole. The boys club nature it. There must be better term a basically there greeted the game. They play the game and there is general show aspect momentum to the game any more. More stop being responsive to the people that they represent. I just feel like there is that mechanism and I think the nice thing democracy elections are resistance, that natural human mechanism, also the balances of power, is, this is a mechanism in some ways, the media. There reveals the bullshit of politicians is also a resistance. There mechanisms it's hard to be full of shit as a politician, because people try to catch on it. So there's a honesty method there that keeps you honest is to some degree, but it's still feels like

Is still feels I politicians are gonna politician yeah, they definitely play their games. That is true it's probably always gonna be that met a narrative over like governance. That just develops as like you have to in relationships and play games to leg at legislation passed everything the art the only reason why I don't like it when people attack institutions is because one institutions are incredibly important, arguably paramount know they are to keeping society running and two, I think sometimes only shift the blame on the institutions too much. I think that we lose sight of what the real problems are. So, for instance, in the united states today, people might be very critical of the government, not getting much done, but then everybody turned their eyes to the governor

for being ineffective, but what I would argue is, I would say, the government is actually incredibly effective and showcasing the will of the american people really well right now, which is we are historically more divided than we have ever been, and if I were to just look at the people- and I would say we have a historic divide that is getting like rapidly blown apart by things like the internet and the media. if that exists. But what but I expect a government to look like I witnessed by their governments be governing very effective. I would expect the government to show that legitimate divide in people. Do you think that divide? We have a perception of a large divide between left and right. You think. That's a real divide, distance country, narrow the language my real divide. Do you think there is that divided ideology, that there are a large number of people that believe a certain set of policies and not the other different analyses? I may get like the perception of the on twitter naething. There is a large divide in terms of belief. I dont think as very much divided in any people in terms of like what they like on the most fundamental levels, one

in terms like human beings, but it has no democrat republic Republican right now. I think there is a huge divide in terms of the direction they went to the country go and what they believe really in what they believe is reality. High unfortunates who have gotten to Canada speak about mechanism of the left and right here, maybe under mimetic, properly aspect there's some aspect to the left and which are part of that attacks. Their own. For ideological impurity more than the right does. Is it the bigotry of small differences? Maybe there's a concept where, when, you're near somebody who is very slightly different than you you want to destroy, but when you're with someone it's way different than you, you don't and I think the left does it, but I think the right does it too. I didn't realize until I started dipping more into conservative communities, but, oh my god, the people from the daily wire and the people from turning point and the america first, but all the all these different groups of people hate each other and they fight each other so much they hire and fire sometimes employees. They talk smack about each other and I think, there's

a political division between both sides. I think that the left just kind of gets highlighted more because, if, like the internet in a lot of the internet space, it have a lot of lovely people cease here like the crazy communists, and the crazy progresses resale centre, left liberals in the crazy blah blah blah, whereas the right, leaning people have kind of been pushed off of the main areas of the internet. Now interesting. My sense was that it's hard to exist on the centre left, but maybe because I just don't have the full spectrum view of the political divide. It felt like central letters, a difficult position to occupy yeah, I would definitely say siam. I don't know if it's that difficult to be Alright, it's very difficult to be center right. I think. Actually, it may be even more difficult, because a centre right person might be somebody who's like conservative, but not a fan of trump and you're like over. I look like list cheney right. You ve had politicians that are just like they didn't back the trump stuff and other god or might be like centre right, but I do not think the election was stolen and now you're like half the people the parties. We can't you like your crazy. You know a sugar industry. I think this is a

appear I'm talking with. I think he publicly spoke against trump right. He then initial aim, but I felt softened his language about I'm pretty significant labour. So there is a significant pressure to color. Kershaw to certain kind of messaging, which the whole republican party is feeling right now. She is that, two years from now that election is going to be insane, it's just hard. Okay, so to generalize it's hard to be in the center is like shortest centre and then like do a random walk. Among policies around that. I don't know what that mechanism is me. It makes people like me not feel good being in the center. It seems like people just not nice to people in the center. They, the public, The the twitter machine is not nice to people who are open minded in the center that there's some truth. To that two reasons, for that, one is because adding a lot of people that market themselves, the center are legitimately spineless cowards and deserve to be called out like, like I've, never killed a man, but

they may be. My first, oh no, there you take over, like I told you take over your stream, the day I will see their has the zack I gotta be streaming the behave hours I'll get gotcha gotcha, gotcha catch, it lots, address, locking gotcha, ok, gotcha end the decree. The amount which already is under a pretty low level of emotion, decrease completely. What, or screaming at you and accusing stuff just remain calm, absolutely emotionless, gaslight or strategy through upper target. I don't. Ah I don't. Even I don't ever identify centre anything because it's got such a bad reputation, because stomach that I stand center with a spine. It's cool being open, my aim is that the centre left and right the richest labels. Here's a really good call. My mom said to me when I was really young. She said

Stevie, don't ever let your mind be so open that your brain falls out and that's what I find that a lot of centre people do as now she told me last night. So why are you like this circuit? Okay, I'm glad I can later bring that I'm glad you feel like it's the It is not our mental. If you wanna talk about fucking, my mom, you know what you're totally within you're right. I didn't say that you said that I want to say that I support that she's, a beautiful woman, hudson, probably meet you happy about it, but you know I didn't say those any sexual relations. I was just that having competition, whether you pay that that says more by you and me go ahead about spineless centre apple. Is there is some massive to that which is like a morpheus jimmy centimetres you youth think freely by each individual policy. Without being stuck to come. I do yeah, but a lot of people who do that they call them so centrist, but then they just their anti establishment. Essentially on everything I don't know your position, unlike vaccines or anything like. I met a lot of like free and open fingers were like you know what I am open to

breathing and it's an experimental vaccine and I'm gonna eat. Hydroxyl clark went- and I remember because that's what the institutions are telling me now to take, and I think that she got too much money from that company and these are, but I'm an open economic and they would open thinker becoming. mit waiting, my position of vaccines is exactly. I hear a lot of crazy things. Alot of people tat you might be from it t, but I know you from the internet again. People from the internet are weird and crazy, so well who knows, I dont like arrogance and I I have criticized scientists during covet a lot of people besides, this included having arrogance which is fair but and that's and I think, there's a lot of good criticism to be made of different, scientific and medical establishments over a lot of stuff. But nobody can make this good criticisms, because her too, like obsessed over like just trying to have the anti establishment answer, and that is what is upsetting the most like. I think there are good conversations

had about a lot of stuff related to how we handle the corona virus. You know we're locked downs, effective. Was there an updated to support the huge measures we took? You know why didn't we have The option of show I was infected a month ago: why do I need to be taxed? and why do I wasn't that option everything and in that sense I think it was there really good questions to be asked there, but all the people asking the questions are also train are you. The ivory acting monoclonal anti bodies are the way to go for everything and the vaccine is evil and it's gonna turn you gay, like the frogs and it's like the Jesus. Like you, kid there's like no place to reasonably criticized from because all of the people are criticising. Aren't doing it with an open mind or you know, they're, not reading studies do anything. Just like I do my on research, which means they look Nevertheless, gowns europeans had another parenting that opinion one easy now, not grows last guy Joergen at your we're gonna get that right the malone guy on Joe rogan got me real that one guess people see him as like. The father of 'em are in a technology published one paper. Okay, what do you mean people which people think that

In fact, I get that out, but I run into these guys are arguably only start setting aboard about homage rogan Joe, and I appreciate the vaccine. That's got I'm glad you do, but there are still it's not like. I was so, but you said, there's a type that has. I was the type was the type of Joe rogan fan anti establishment. I think such a robin. That's it that's a general public discourse is a default and yes, the establishment

I know on the right and the left. That's the default. Easy thing to go to oregon fans are definitely a certain type of anti establishment, though, like I could guess the Joe rogan felt like if I were to do general population vs Joe rogan fan, who do things more likely to be anti vaccine? Do you have data on this, or are you just guessing just guessing yeah? I think you are actually judging. I am, I think, you're judging because I think you are also the beautiful thing about podcasting. This could be similar streaming as there's a large number of people that just listen like what. What does it mean to be a joe rogan fan? I don't think you just listen. I think people listen and absorb the information. I would say that the Joe rogan fan base This is as divided. No, the vaccine is the general public gotcha marijuana like four point at our man. I've shirt somebody's got, have done it out there, but not by your your basically revealing the fact they have no data using your own judgement, for she could not help. he's had conversations about how his experience with the corona virus and then based on the guest of come on that have talked and

got a lot of like anti backstroke imports and been completely unchallenged, and the basin statements he's made about. milo cardenas on the back seat and everything was while you, so that is the level of challenge or not. That don't worry, I'm what his true positions are and then the types of gas heap typically choose to bring on to talk about the vaccines here, ok, but that represents somehow a deep anti establishment feeling we're suggested vaccine, and you have seen the vaccine and other things being a thing that broke people. That's you run a virus that hot one or two years broke up people there's a lot of emotion, emotion, quickly certified into an opinion that almost had not and to do with like real, like thinking through updating your knowledge and size. Meda made up your mind you, but I think a lot of it. Comes from that anti social place like what the vaccine represents the ultimate of establishment. It was a huge private company, backed by a huge public government,

and there's fouch he and there is Biden and there's pfizer and there's all these countries, locking us up in our homes telling us to do a thing like the vaccine was like the ultimate like submission tool to like show you that the government owns you. Not only have you at once, it's a series and then you got to get booster and it's like they're trying to keep you under their thumb and it's that's the control. I feel like that vaccine became like the ultimate rallying cry, but you're like do you support? Are you a sell out that is going to believe? Whatever the government tells the sheep to take or you're going to be like the guy that stands against the crowd and gets fired from his job? plus his kids from school, because they're not going to let the evil fouch. He medicine, you know jab them in the arm, and the funny thing is, the crowd stands against. The institution is not larger than the crowd. Sheep, is like one sheep standing their chairmen. I feel that way. Sometime or black sheep we're. Ok, what's the defensive institutions, how do you regain the trust in institutions like four first, I do think that there there's ways in which our w I chose c failed and

do you think, there's criticism towards pfizer and the big farmer companies does deserve it tempted the farmer. Companies are not sure for city seemed to reach out to here is a criticism that I have of all of academia and I feel it stronger stronger every day. I dont think it's enough to be a researcher or to be correct about issues. Academia needs to increase its ability to communicate. It is in an unbelievable unmitigated failure that academics are unwilling to wade into the complicated topics. Ah that exists today, because other people are, you know. First, you call me spineless and then you call me a bad communicator, but now look you're here, you're doing it, so you get props for me. Okay, good job, the mother for their like so many, but I'm sure you've, I'm sure that you must have heard on.

The fellow academic, a fellow colleagues, expressed some amount of frustration about like in their specific discipline. They know something to be true and they know that, like a lot of the messaging is like wrong or bad in the public about it, but then ever gonna stop say anything because either one they're very measured and careful with their take, which they feel is incompatible with what people want to hear or to they're really worried that they might be incorrect, so they're going to be cautious while everybody else is going on in my carnivores, and they also have the support of institutions for them gone and the limb yeah, that's so like to take risks. For example, That was a lovely theory A lot of biology, biologist friends there like gets obviously leak from lab early on, maybe ok, you're fired. this one but sorry guys. Let's keep talking talking like another little can fight over like day. Ok, I should sort of backstep and say, like that's like

talk about shooting the shit you haven't really investigated, but your gut like this doesn't make any sense. There would never say that publicly, of course, mostly because you're saying like that, would they would all says like we want to see data yeah, which will be good, which is fine, so they're going with a car like this is too many why it is in the same place as the the logic, but they don't want to say anything because there's no data you need to have evidence need have actual. One way or the other there's that. But there is also just like you said: I mean if effective, effective com, location, you're, a fan of Sean carroll on his ass he's, like one of the only people in this whole planet that I like besides, you and love shrunk as any time Sean carroll's brought up, as evidenced there's a smile that comes over your face and love of life of joy of like a little kid

it was santa claus. Okay, I love your girl to be exact, like I love sean Carroll, because there is, I hate this divide between, like you, either stem or you're, like philosophy, arts and all that other stuff, and the two worlds can request. I love the to be so good at physics. like explores and pays attention to all of the like sociological stuff to it so rare to find that quality in a purse is what what the really really really specialised, but you don't have to be a shock how you can be just a little better, educated, the person, india in the medical and health space is a sum named Andrew human friend mine for my stanford he's incredible educator. This kind of process and science You should call a review or survey papers. Were you basically summarize all that's going on integrated and my draw wisdom from men also project like, whereas the discipline hadn't. And Andrew does a basis in all these sub components of different stuff gone on in neuroscience. out? Neurobiology all that he sees able to he does a pack has called you

will you just summarizes on the end, is able to explain what is actually mean for europe, for your life in terms of protocols on how to make your life better? I think people should be able to do that more more, but with the virus virology and a boy, that's a tricky one. That's a really tricky one. I wish that people could have honest conversations like I attack a lot of people that do the leveling theory stuff, but truly, We should be able to have that conversation publicly it just now, because the people who are having the conversation don't ever really want to have. The conversation were not being on us like every, like I'm, a guy that like does his own research and that its so bored, reading studies and a lot of it can only do abstracts and, like I like it's so much work but I'll never ever say. About myself, I'm a guy, the dozens of research, because every time I hear somebody say that they don't do any research when they say they do their own research within minutes, they've seen one podcast and their opinion on his podcast is that definitely not mine cause? It was mine. I wouldn't be criticizing anything they saying

yeah that sounds lovely cause another one where it's like. Well, how do you know what slab leak? How do I know it's lab leak because that he lied and hunter Biden later? Okay, come on, you have engaged with all this really interesting research that shows have really strong study. That shows that there's like a high degree of certainty that it came from the wet markets, very, very high degree of certainty, and there there was an article in a recently words like Senate. Concludes that viruses, they came from other will Han virology laboured ever in that whole article. If you've read it. It never says that in the article I dunno why they tweeted at that headline, but yeah it's to backup. I'm sorry. I think we should have good. You should be sorry yeah, I'm not sorry. Actually, I'd get around Well, here: okay, I'm here for a long time. I rescind my apology again. I actually rescind my apology and we should be able to have challenging conversation about things, but you, a man, be well read on both sides. Not not this. Like. I do my research, though I don't believe anything that that she says like come on dude the league. You can do better than not you personally gotcha

as I feel because eyes, a few or no real understood that the catch for his gotcha through all tragedy and trial. Through all the roller coaster of life. Your response to his gotcha its election them he jumped to that beef before contici with with political discourse. Psychologically, you are in a lotta heated debates in your usually super come under fire until you're. Not sometimes you lose your temper completely their labour. The thick european man, the masked by psychology, what a psychological, your strengths and weaknesses that yourself, wherever I I'm very non judgmental. So I can entertain a lot of different a thought without agreeing with them or condoning them finance a really big benefit to me for whatever reason I seem to be like pretty cool in dealing with annoying people. It's why got promoted efficacy,

herself ass, a good deal but like drunks, whatever like it just in effect without much one percent of the population is annoying, depends on what how you're engaging with them most people are really knowing ever. Let you only political debate at what prisoners annoying. I guess the present whom debating it, what the topic as I guess, the I'm trying to point out. The fact that sometimes you can say That review something about you, if you think a large percent of people are annoying. Why would say working graveyard shift when alcohols involved? That percentage of people goes very very, very if you are going to be more fair, actually it's not a high percentage truly, but if you're a server one bad customer can ruin the rest of your shift. So you only need like one or two people acting in that manner to just like totally throw you off and you're able to at least these days is not a law that one customer to throw off quite clear, Much like a I noticed, especially after having a sun there's something about like six year old kids. Wherever words like

if they get mad. They're, never gonna be mad for that long. Like they'll move on, like that's my mentality, I'm like a six year old cat like I might be mad about something but I'll get over it, like thirty minutes or an hour and like, and I'm pretty good about, not caring, That threat is re rather like hold a grudge against anybody or like be angry. worry about something are really disaffected by something over the long term. That almost never happens to me. What are your weaknesses psychologically? You say I still have a problem with projecting I think we are probably do but, like my mind onto others, it's like. If I understand this and have said this, you should understand it and if you're, not you dumb, that's like an issue that I I still have that, where I project too much while upholding grudges, I like that I'd never hold grudges. I'm like the least grudge person ever it's kind of a or mike munich is anybody can always like come back and as long as they're acting different? What about this as long as they're acting different?

alright. The reason why I say that is because I am so fringes either. Nobody likes us, but I have a strong stance on apologies and that I hate them. I don't ever want to hear an apology. I don't care about them ever they don't mean anything to me. If you did something bad as long as you've like fixed, behavior and you're, not doing a thing, then we're generally chill like it's been a lot of people that have been involved in weird stuff with me, but then like they. They go off to do the thing and they come back and it's like okay cool. As long as you don't do it again like refine like it's all good, I'm sorry, you feel that way. It's not your fault, stephen snowfall, okay, gotcha. You said plenty of negative stuff positive. negative stuff about hassan tat. This is my pack ass. I get to get you to force you to say positive things. What do you love me all about love after grilling me on the outward word stuff, where you're gonna make me compliment hassan there's going to be a harder conversation than that alright you're, theirs we're going to get you to feel emotions. How come

so he's enough for people are now these another popular political streamer. I think you had, as the kids call it a bridge bird in over Bernie sanders. I don't know my researches very limited on this, but would you respect and love most about hassan? He puts a lot of work. when he was a growing, a stream from two thousand to her dearest to fifteen thousand. He was trimming like with like twelve hours a day like every single day, so that was admirable did a lot of work. He does seem to be pretty good at networking unlike socializing and making the correct friends connections to continue to build his business. What about him as a political thinker? I know you don't think I live on that and there were garbled. I feel there somewhere, they're dead, honestly want to push back on that because sucker I've zero respect from as a political figure, there's nothing to be almost anything. So I will say I admire the fact. through no actual capable

your ability of his own. He manages to wind up at some of the correct answers. Just cause he's telling the lines as good job for him on that he's got a lot of direct opinions. He has no idea why, sir, I think that's undeserved, I think, is too harsh man. The reason it bring that up as I feel that there is a deep grudging their somehow. So you're the father now so since you're so old, the grandfather the political debate on stream and my stream political, the better. So there could be some grudge about that split that happened or not enough credit. Given that kind of stuff- I just I just think he's somebody that has a left, The ideology that's different than yours. He bernie supporter right and I guess you were not. Can you can you explain to me what the division is? He exemplifies everything? I absolutely hate about witches witches shallow engagement, heavily ideologically, driven and you're. Not

geologically different. Absolutely that very that's it! That's! What we're talking about like the free thinker in the real meaning of that word. Yes, wait, lemme qualify, issue, place, you're thinking. Let me qualify what I mean when I say that, and I spend a lot of time unfortunate time delving into the boring world of philosophy. I spent a lot of time thinking about like what are my ethical positions. How do I feel about myself the people around me and how that relates to the world around me and then from all of these positions? I think you might have used the phrase first principles earlier and from these kind of like first principles. Out of that is where all of my political positions are built, sort of like full stops. Have you asked me a question like how do you feel about like the right to own a firearm, or how do you feel about social healthcare like we can walk through well? This is how I feel about it as like a thing from the government. This is where the government gets it's power. This is ethically how if the people are supposed to function. This is morally how we relate to each other, and personally, this I feel like I'll, be able to do every single political belief back there. It's not like I'm telling you like. If I were to ask Hassan, and what do you feel about this political topic he's going to tell him

what progressive I supposed to say. I dunno what he thinks about. Don't you think that's a cynical take why's. He just because his views coincide with the mainstream narrative, mainstream viewpoints of progressive thing, it. Why does that mean is not thinking because indeed with every subject, is incredibly shallow. One hundred percent predictable, like I could write like. Oh, I could probably programme a script the light. Give you every single potential ass. He could have to any single question you could give. I again, I think, that's pretty cynical, take look. I could be the case that his brain perfectly aligns with every single mail I don't know if you know it is perfectly lines, as I think, you're just taken a very sledges extreme review of each other, a very select slice that represents the perfect the line it does. It puts the looking at a person struggle. They didn't think it through ideas and then giving him a pass like a lot of people like I give you pass on just the fact You'd sail out a crazy shit. I've dreamed for drama ike, which is one of savings for drugs.

there may be dramatic, but Jimmy you ve evolved as official vas legs, evolved a mechanism boat which creates controversy that that the uk safe, not intention, but it happens, I think gosh I, the extreme, is gonna, learn that kind of thing and so on. Your hassan does the same kind of stuff and so like, underneath it there's still thinking being this. That's contending with political ideas, you don't think says a really good job of hiding it. There are other political figures that I really don't like that. I wouldn't say the same thing about so like I dunno. If your va shred on there are like a guy, that's a person that thought he also split out of my community and grow to something I know he hates man. His anti fan community they'll have tell me something you love above all shit. I can tell you a lot of things about vos, I think va. She legitimately thinks through a lot of his political positions. I admire did admire that he has like his own like positions. It would take summons contrary to people for the left than him he's got some positions that don't fit his ideology kind of.

All like he's his own internet thinker, rhetorically, he's very effective. He was willing sit down. Do research per like his debates and everything he would spend a lot of time practicing like his rhetorical and navigating conversations he intentionally purposefully. Like a community that exemplified his values me, I will No, I dont, where we are completely split in haiti, enabling I've lie. Why why first of all hate is a strong? What why the hate? Ok, I don't hate him, but he hates me because we had a couple of really big debates. One has to do with whether or not you should live your values. And can you give me the story? That's a charitable interpreted. I always give turnabout herbert and you don't. You absolutely No, you don't wait they what have they haven't five minutes ago, you told him. I saw everything I suppose tat is true. There is no still member her chair and it won't that. I'm sorry, if you can, if you can prove me wrong. I love you too, there ok, I'm using my

instinct usually when somebody feels strongly about another person in that way is not coming from a place of data and reason is coming from a place of emotion. It's coming from a place of resentment and grudge, and all that kind of stuff yeah. I get there's deep, there's emotions deep in there, so the gotcha is hiding the gut at the garcias is the surface of an iceberg and there's a deep ocean underneath that you yourself have not explored. I disagree, but I understand when laugh is actually a doorway. The young lavish dory for you to explore the depths of getting to that ocean a friend my fish, my preval form yep, I understand why you think the way you do and you should you shouldn't believe me, and I understand that because somebody told me the same thing. I thank you, I just really don't like this person for a reason or two. I understand why you think that way. Okay, the reality is, though, for any

medical person that I disagree with like I can give them a fair shake. It's one of the few things I think I do exceedingly well on my stream, even with Hassan there's, been drama that he's been involved in, and I've like very when I am involved in drama he'll, always throw me under the bus, but when he's involved in stuff, always like. Oh, like I think Hassan was right here or I think that he meant this and there was a. There is a thing that came up once we're on why while he was getting rose too, because he referred to somebody who use expression, shit scam, to refer to somebody's like the way they looked, and I have Only ever heard that, in the context of fortune, people talking about like indians are like black people like interracial thing, but I could tell the context and everything that he was saying. Was insulting some guy, I think he was collect and sell Virgil number he was going for like acne skin. I think that's what he meant when he said it. we're a whole bunch of people that were incidents like, oh my god did he just say racist hermanus. I know one of these races. I think he was like he was just reaching for words and that's what came out and so like that's an example of me being chair, Lou, okay, but didn't you criticize him for something? I

I was trying to allay googled. Why the hell you guys, but as I thought, your friends you should be like kamala, harris video, but go ahead where we use that way is etiquette associate. Did the I'd feel like you criticize them over something, and I am okay. This is very vague memory, but criticism over something and I felt that criticism wasn't charitable, was it pete buddha church, sofya, p? Buddhas? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, so I says million times, but they're no amount of contacts are no amount of nuances. Is ever some of I but think hassan is homophobic, but I think the comments made about pete booty judge were really. Homophobia said yeah and there were a lot of people making a lot of comments that made me really uncomfortable about pete buddha judge. That was insane to me, spurred by the comments of the sun. No, but it was an environment of progressive. All the progressive were attacking peat and I felt like his gayness became like this subject. Why how I throw her son under the

was glad because he was jumping along with all of those types of like insults. You don't think you've done the same kind of stuff. If I do call me on it and a transgression, if that's what the are what was above us a good call out, like your friend, that you should privately tome, rightly Well, now by then we were sworn enemy so so that wasn't reason not at all. It was over a couple harris swine enemies What am I sorry? I listen for all of these people. I will accept them back into my life if they ever want to come back in it. No, but usually they're the ones. They are correct themselves right now. Not I'm not expecting anybody here is so here's the deal with wash innocent. These are like the three were, the three guys on him. None of us will talk to reach. a sound because you won't give cloth anybody and wash because he thinks I'm bad faith and then neither then we'll talk to me because they, both at me, you gotta, go Laguna. Camping trip together said bro, batman, but three way and just like rejoined, refined yeah, that guy innovation for each other out of from the internet perspective me, as a just stepping into this world,

there's some aspect to which you have a risk. Possibility that were daddy. You haven't where'd you learn from you have an opportunity? I wish you guys it kind of b, the beacon of like forgiveness and friendship and like camaraderie, in that I agree even if we disagree it would be really good to our shit. Talk like friends, shit talk, show vs, not like the fact that you guys don't talk to each other, like I would love for you to shit talk, publicly it with a commodity. Always there like there's love in the in the beginning, love in the end, but beat the shit out of each other in the middle and that's what last she mused for the political discourse. That's that's great political discourse, verses I think what underlies it some jealousy and so on this you get as many footfall. When I say a clear, your everybody has to your audience there I am sure you have flaws that I'm just not that man in this dynamic or define you know cause I'm your only flies you're too modest, yeah

What were you guys put up because I would love it honestly. Just let me just put that idea out there for you as the two to make up in cigarettes there are, of course, as everybody talks me vashe amazon. It's crazy that, like the three largest like political A left, leaning people online, like can't do any type of content, are clear. Duration at all? It's so stupid was the reason guess, but though the commerce so assigns entry into a kind of like the twin political debate world was an, I think, twenty eighteen, I think the debate with charlie Kirk and he reached out to me too kind of like review. That debate I go on to go over downstream and he came, We went over it and then be kind of a friendship developed. We hung out a real life. I think when I came to las vegas up on his couch, we play to his dog were like friends and and as time went on

he was a little bit more and he was farther left than he let on so like I was a social democrat. He was a social democrat, but back in those days like twenty eighteen, when people said they were a social democrat, they really miss socialist, but they just didn't wanna, say it, so he was farther left than me and we had a lot of deep divide aids in our approach to politics, whereas, like I was very much like a first principles, is my whole political position and he was very much. kind of like a. This is like the political ideology I'm involved in, and this is kind of like the field that I kind of like navigate him. So there were a couple instances where these device would be laid very bare. One was when I it was either him or the young turks. I think it was him. There was a shooting in a neighborhood where very young black child gets killed by a white sugar and they did a video about lay hate crime. and how I hate crimes are on the rise in racism. White people are evil and blah. Not now that but like why people in many against can spot people

and I remember saying dilemmas like hey: we don't have all the data yet, for this feels really bad to make videos about this beforehand causes the same. Tubby show that happens. airports, you know, is there a thing going on? Was it a brown person? Are they muslim? It's islamic extremism. We see this played out so many times in recent history. Probably not a good idea to jump to conclusions and he was like well, no, you don't understand like it's, not that big a deal whatever and obviously, as the story goes tale as old as time the data comes out, it was just an errant shot. There was like gang violence, shot goes out of. Nowhere hits a kid in the car, it wasn't like a hate crime. The guy was trying to kill a kid, but yeah we. Basically we we bump up against a few kind of political disagreements like this, and an annoying thing is happening in my community, where hassan is like the serious political figure because he's from the young turks and I'm just kind of like I do politics, but also game at any time- criticise a sound public destiny. You need to be more respectful, he does his full time if you're gonna bring criticism, can you to be like really well read and research because he's gotta you no more serious whatever, which are there ridiculous. I, though, if people are now he worked at the young turks witches.

The largest left, leaning youtube channel, primarily, as he said the time I am so finally He did a video on skype ahead. Some more minor discussions he does video on kamala harris, because a couple harris and it's like seven or eight horrible things, but Kamel Harris- and unlike ok, I know at least one or two things are not fully accurate. So I'm going to do all the research I'm gonna have all the sources are going to have a long conversation about, so that now I provide criticism to him. It's not gonna, be like this horrible, like just me, saying something flippant leah, whatever it's gonna be like substantial criticism, so I was on a plane ride. J f k to our lando, whatever flying to sweden, is my wife and on the plane you all of the video all the data? Do all the research and I read everything say: ok, I get to my arm. My wife's death As an I'm at the table, we're having a conversation like hey, we should talk about the kamala harris stuff and he's like okay. Well, let's do it and we go over it and I'll leave to the audience to watch the video enough.

So I feel pretty confident in us. I was pretty reasonable, pretty measure pretty comical time and I think he said to get increasingly irritated that I was levying like more serious criticisms that, like the quality of work that he dead, probably because you ve a little bit intimidated, I think by my willingness like dive through political stuff. They ve been a couple of awkward bluffs where, like on it's like a show called the raj royale, where sometimes politics would come up and his son would kind of try to explain something, and there was another person one time of the show that made the joke is like, instead of hassan, taking ten minutes to explain this contest viewers come here explaining at thirty seconds and he like exploded that he got so fucking mad at that and so yeah. I think that when I made that kind of call out her critique of him over the Kamel harris stuff, he's probably feeling like increasingly irritated threatened, agitated and that's kind of what began the huge split from R. So you don't think you were a digital. I don't think

that conversation, especially given that, like at that point, because this is still twenty eighteen or twenty, this may be. Twenty nineteen, I'm still known at that point, is being very aggressive towards conservatives of all sizes, ah gotcha yeah. So, and with lefties is what I call him. I think I've been with very gentle, like my conversations with conservatives at europe, are so don't blow like that's how I'm like doing stuff with him, I'm like. Well, don't you think that, like this is like a little bit of like an in system presentation about like a feeling of units, but I was led to the audience: they can go wash that kamel. A video camera harris video destiny Assad if they think that I speak do not, but a lot of people watch is that I was being pretty gentle Well, let me say, as a new fan of the space, I hope make up, and I hope you guys fight it out in the space of discord. In ideas me too, and also with empathy understanding. What the strength of the other person is, what their buttons are, and you know there's like an unspoken rule that you don't press the buttons that he shot

unless you're doing it mutually and it's fun cause. You know you found a piece of each other, also, never that that's kind of like what do you don't causes online, but other than that. You fight it out. Ok, let's back one other super aspect of your worldview. Is your big supporter of Biden? Can you splain, will you love bob? I dealer Biden more than shock girl or less shrike air of just like in another world of catch admiration. I, like you, like, I'm, culturally appropriating you by saint gotcha. Was so convenient? It's an easy word. You decide now we're on the same wavelength. Ok, word synchronizing! That's got It is really interesting because even people who support Biden, usually don't say they love serve. Their support is strongly ideologically, philosophically. The reason why violence. Cause he's really committed to this, bringing the left and right together, which is something we so desperately need in the country and his

statements over and over again of, like I'm, not a democrat president of the republic and president under present united states, his desire to bring republicans together to work on things like the infrastructure bell that's so incredibly needed and I have a huge amount of respect and admiration for him for trying to push through on. Message. Do you think, then, its unfortunate that he made a comment about mega magda republicans year by we, I figure what the it was the maga republicans are not good people can bear. I watched the full video and he's right there is this toxic aspect and it's hard to call out, because there are always going to spend like oh, he hits republics he's not if you watch the quote, he's very specifically calling out like this. This group of people that

If the election was fraudulent? Is it clear it is what he meant by we can bring it up. I don't know of, but I remember watching. Our stream was like if he said it yeah, that's bad you'd, probably like youtube maga, Republicans Biden but like it feels like it's pretty clear, he's talking about the people that are like election denying too much of what's happening in our country. Today is not normal donald trump, and the maga republicans represented extremism that threatens the very foundations of our republic, not want to be very clear, what's clear up front, not every public and not even a majority, republicans or maga republicans, not every republican embraces their extreme ideology. I know because I've been able to work with these mainstream republicans, but there's no question that the republican party today is dominated

driven and intimidated by donald trump and the maga republicans, and that is a threat to this country. I disagree with them and he didn't clearly say extremist ideology. He didn't say the people that doubt the validity of the election. I mean that's donald trump. No, but does that's all the characters that donald trump is supporting. How many? What is it like? Forty, fifty how many candidates right now that are mega candidates are elections? No, but there's a eighty million. Whatever people voted for donald trump, you could say: that's the maga republicans so to me it sounded like he was referring. Do not even the majority. I mean that that's one nice helpful clarifying statement, but as basically there's the mainstream republicans and then there's those that voted for donald trump. That's the way I heard it and six so that they should do a better job of clarifying but yeah. I feel like there's like a clear. There is a huge problem with this group of americans are thankfully

election of stolen and photographs goes who's, no matter who, if that's what he meant. Even flirting with that line is not a person whose bringing people together. I feel like they're extending a hand to the like most I've worked with republicans in congress, not our, but not even a majority. Republicans are like this noble Y, see not the majority of the public as a like. This say like weird, like a word one, country. We believe a synthesis like four. Isn't the uniting part verses say he does before and after those fifty seconds. Okay, because you never know the point, is you never say something like that? Listen like that! You you've spoken about the bosnia speech, which is your favorite of his. I went back to and listened to it before moved to that. Just on this, it's really hard for him to call out that group of like election, and I, as I think without it, always feeling. Why call em up because is arguably one of the most destructive forces that exists in this country that did destroy thing without trying to did it, though,

It didn't did it so. Does that mean we don't call it out? We wait till next time have because calling it out is giving fuel to the division like the people I doubted the validity of the election. That's anger, this frustration with the other side. You he'll that, as opposed to saying all those people to believe that at any time are idiots there. On american I mean I think the election was real. I don't love Biden. Has the ears of these people at all. I don't know what he can do for these people to believe same thing on the in two. Sixteen with the russian hacking right, there's the stout hold on yes, as a super, not fair comparison. There are definitely the mainstream stream democratic opinion. Was that Russian intrusion in terms of like social median stuff happen, but there was never

claim that, like the election was stolen, no mate, or at least I don't know of any mainstream Democrat that supported that donald trump is not just saying there is interference of a law. Donald trump is literally saying: the election was literally stolen. That vote boxes were ballot boxes, were hidden. That vote tallies were manipulated. That adding the claim is. There is a huge gulf of differences in the two, so you can attack donald trump for that gap. I believe if it's not the words of the united to attack people that believe that. You could argue. Maybe it's ok, but especially not being super clear that about who you referring to is a mega republic because maga is a hat and a slogan that refers to

Whatever the number is: seventy million people, whoever they voted for donald trump, like all the republicans, the conservatives maga republicans. What percentage of them do? You think believe the election was stolen, feel like that numbers out on the public failure numbers, like probably more than seventy percent, What was the matter of public and maybe I'm not lying and trot like attempts to putting up a magyar upon their. Therefore Tromp was the division somebody that vote. four trump and maghreb in a matter of public eye, so my mom is a mega republican. If trump ran independently and dissent as ran under the rolling ticket my moment over trump shall follow him to the under the earth. That's a mega republican! I think it's easy to mistake that distinction in these kinds of political speeches to me. Anybody who voted for trump can easily in the cut in the context of the speech be interpreted as a mega republican gotcha ourselves saying. Maybe he could be more clear but, like I think, and listening to that, like thing is pretty obvious.

he's talking about, but I guess of europe- have an emotional response to like honest and emotional mama I don't have an emotional response. I just don't lake. I'm with what is a michelle obama, they go We go high, meaning like too be a uniter doesn't participate in derision, shall unite or might not, but a leader has to be able to accurately assess the situation before him and make people aware of. What's going mean all the impeachment draws, all the censoring from social media? All of that didn't do the job, that's right. His job. I don't know about such a mechanism. The his job is to inspire nation to united nation. How can you do that when the people, don't believe it. He was even legitimately elected by getting it. A job at working on legislation and doing stuff that hopefully benefits all americans, but I think it important to recognise that, like there is a contingent of americans that dont even believes they, Verily grinding people recognise that and are fighting that accompanies screaming there from the rooftops. His job is to be the inspiring figure

makes the majority of america's be proud friend to be president of of the nation. They love that's what the uniting aspect is it remind people that we are one and we love this country will have their ideas their represents. She does at another press that speech like a twenty minute speeches on it, but that's a fuck up. You just don't participate in that division. Anyway. Eight- and I understand I understand- I just want to push back on the same track, one of the ways, strength there, that he's he's united but yes, that there, as an ideal. That is a goal as a great one, and he is one that espoused I'd go for long tat. You think home would ask those so from policy. but and on I, the ways of ukraine. Everything thus far has been almost perfect and handed a really good job at at the political manoeuvring bringing other countries into the fold at establishing. Clearly, like

what our mission was in relation to ukraine? I thought he did a good job there. I admire him for pulling out of afghanistan. Even it was a little bit rough around the edges like we got out and were gone and organize her last the domestic policies pass more major legislation that I think anybody thought possible there. and then she stopped for the last building infrastructure, bow a lot of the corona virus relief. I thought was really good, especially especially the child tax credit and so from a policy perspective, foreign and domestic. That he's been successful, rhetorically. I think he's generally been above board terms of like not attacking people two divisive he's trying to bring people together and work on them. What do you think about this? popular in the media. Criticism his mental decline. Do you think he's exe know, he's an old guy, but do you think a hefty yeah, maybe a little bit but he's still doing a good job? So yeah not from a speech perspective? You mean from a positive but yeah, I'm analyzing as the jamia from speech

if the government- maybe not the greatest but yeah, I mean he's. Definitely what does he like? Eighty eighty one? How old is he I lose track after so many years but you did say that he's probably going to run around twenty four is probably going to win. I say that that he's probably gonna win no way did I say somewhere. Further gonna run so again, but I think I am, I felt the income in it it's just so strong. You willing to throw that away like there's, not like one or two times in history, in the u s right where, like the non incumbent, they the parties, put somebody else up. Yeah, I mean the the concerns. just the age in them the metal decline, just the the wear and tear of the campaign of that kind of stuff. All of the speech you have to make the debates and all that kind of stuff and see what happens at the least excited- I mean two years when I was a long time and his current mental state yeah. He could run and do it. He could do a passable job in two years man out I've seen videos of bill Clinton. Recently he's like a pretty rough enough,

It is like in a lot more rough, worse for wear in two years and they actually do have to dig out another person, four run. I own us. What do you think about trump when he won in twain? Sixteen, I think when you came to fruition politically speaking. So what are you his when you, the twain sixteen election represents so from me tromp, the ant there isn't gonna do politics was tromp was like this new epistemic force in american politics that like, You gonna have to like flirt with facts before you. If you want to be non factual heap super didn't care lying, like a first language to him, just like and speaking in terms of like the way, the used language to just say to you what he felt like you needed to here, to support him and not care at all about it is going on about it. Is that yeah that that's that's what trump represented to mean in terms of like things that I cared about

yes represents a lot more, obviously that there was an honor and of american opinion that a lot of people didn't know, still existed, and did he unelected that the overton win? was misidentified by even a large amount of the republican party that populism was a lot more popular than a lot of people figured. You know, yeah. There's a lot of it. I guess he represented. Do you think trump should have been banned from twitter can make the case for and against it see Europe a big supporter of free speech. He asked the case in favour. Are you think he should be brought back as anyone to yeah, because it here by desire tests will be brought back so supportive all the way. Thank you ellen on burma account, so does. He call me, by no one. At the messages on ok out only destiny, it was verified. Twitter account does not augur well. How did you get banned from twitter destiny? I don't now I'll add that did two young. I saw that there is a scourge shot of you refer

to the rape of somebody, hey? That was on an older twitter account, and that was about twenty of multiple to twitter. Constantly trying to go around the bans. Are you keep getting ok hold on slandering me a lot right now, let's get the facts straight yoga, and I don't even remember why my first chicago banned, but it was a wild account. I tweeted some wildly inappropriate things. You regret. I don't like that. Where I'm going to give the answer, most people gather it's like. I don't regret it cause. I learned a lot, so I'm glad I had the baddeck, president? What are you like? The word for good, I think, if we look at where we are, how you feel about determinism- I believe, in hard the hardest of determinism? That's why I'm ok soldier, who I am Today is the culmination of everything. That's it in the past. I believe you speaking of sorry to I believe, in use. Speaking about That is a nice way to communicate that in this deterministic world you ve analyze the acts of

past and you're no longer that person yeah, of course, for sure, that's what that's! What regret usually means? Ok, thanks for giving me the human expedition. Okay, truth! So in that sense is a lot of things. I've done that I, regret? What are you you're human you're? A bot npc is my preferred with those I wish. I would have been smart enough at the time to not have to have had made those mistakes. Kothari go cause you have and but yeah obviously really dumb, really crazy off the wall tweets but that it can get better than I made another count. Call em. I can't we don't give you a history of twitter accounts by another account called omni. Destiny is an honor, and that was my I got verified. I was cool they. Let me have that account because originally bandit I set up well when I was like. Oh, let me have one more and back then twitter was cool and they're like okay, go for it and that it can last for a long time- and I don't actually know one hundred per cent- why that account got banned

and I believe that the tweet that showed up in the final air got banned for hate speech, and it was because I was there was a picture that I tweeted with three different alt writers that are kind of like neonazi people, and they were all like mixed race people- and I said, like the new alt right- looks like a disney channel original movie in terms of racial composition and somehow they got flagged for instigating violence against minorities. I think I think that's a tweet that got me banned, because I think this was shut up in the final report, but I don't know that. Maybe there are other reasons because nobody ever communicates, but ever since that account went under it has been benefiting ever since. So a ban evading ever since I knew new concert around Randy's cabin cause. They finally figure out it's me and then they benefit. There's like one dude at twitter HQ who's like constantly looking for my new accounts and they get at me now anyway. Yeah I'd also hope both trump world. But what do you think? Ok I mean this: oh, should it be banned? Oh you asked me to make both cases and should he be banned, I mean damned when you're

well shit, that's arguably leading stuff like january. Sixth, I can understand why, because it's like what else is is wilder going to tweet out like? Is he going to start instigating other violent events, so I'm sympathetic towards the like? Okay, we can't just be here saying stuff like this: that's insane we are going to banham on some of those isn't instigating or you're instigating goal violence in the physical world, yeah like if I were to read stuff like that, I would get banned. Probably on the flip side, this is the president of the united states. It seems like he's like doing presidential decree by social media. Sometimes like. Is it really right that one public, or private. I should say one private company cannot like erase the presence of the united states words from the eyes of a lot of americans that are using these social media feeds, and one big one which I for sure am against is the permanent and yeah. I don't like that. I hit that even in my community, if somebody comes back for like a year like I mean you just compare yourself to the president they have not received a twitter banning the president says. Let us may have I been donald

and my chat room. I don't vitamin a year a year. What's the process for on banning donald trump? Will woody allen? Usually people send an email they're like listen, I did the stuff, I'm sorry. I was dumb I'll, give him our chance, but a year, what if they send an email a month later, you shall about him. That's actually pie ban pretty if we make money, but if you've ever asked you softy looking, I usually let them back, and I will because I used to be the worst type of internet person and I think I'm a little bit better than I used me so now that you're older yeah now that I've matured Of course, age bestows a wisdom that just can't be gotten any other way. What's your sense in general, is there something interesting you could say about your view on free speech? It seems like one of the terms, its also of over to meet a lot of different things, though, does it mean to you? If you have a democratic style of governance, you are entrusting people with one of the most awesome and radical of responsibility

and not saying that you're going to pick the people that are going to make some of the hardest decisions in all of human history. If you're going to trust people to vote correctly, you have to be able to, and have open and honest dialogue with each other, whether that's nazis or take a k people. Whoever talking you have to believe that your people are going to be able to rise above and make the correct determination. When they hear these types of speeches and if you're so worried that somebody's going to hear a certain political figure and they're going to be completely radicalized instantly, then when that tells me is that you don't have enough faith in humans for democracy to be a viable institution which is fine. you can be anti democratic, but you can only be pro democracy and anti free speech within reason. So was within reason. So maybe not next camp was like child porn or something on twitter. Where were people trying to catch on that stuff or like direct calls to violence are probably not you should be treating all they were. Gonna meet up tomorrow, go bomb blah blah

walk province, or do you think it's ok to allow racism, anti semitism and I hate speech hate speech? Yes, because of that can be very broadly defined. I can understand their being some. Basic rules of like no slurs, unlike a platform that gets into like acceptable forms adoration or like excess of harassment of bullying. I can understand but pass that when the when the moderation becomes ideological. I get a little bit nervous because for four there's a whole other hosty, others of course It's all a grey area but wait field, ideology is seep into the censorship knocker yeah, which so fascinated to think, especially now that you are bottom how'd. You engineer a system that prevents ideology from c b, and nevertheless is able to create a platform that has healthy conversations.

If you have one guy, was just screaming nonsense? Nonstop, as this effect with a quiet voices at the back of the room or silence? Now so like that. That's what you usually don't talk abolish. If you let one annoying loud person in that's, actually censoring the voice of a lot of people. I would like to speak, but I don't get a chance. That's one of the things especially run like transit course? I have to constantly do that. Like reminder for my audiences alike, when I'm dealing with these terrestrial internet a lot of them I'm really crazy. A lot of these types people might seem insane but like in the real world, outside of like the crazy twitter actress world. Like the vast majority of people, your meeting from eligibility communities are like the coolest normal people while they want us to like right to live their life and the way they want to and to be like unobstructed and like him. But people will get this. I should like an online activists like a visa or elderly person or whatever, and then I think that everything person. Real life is like that. It's a really negative stereotypes, and then even the other people in that group? Oh, it was million coming over oh yeah, I see I don't have a tour okay,

May I just joined us. What are we talking about was an interesting. You are saying that you're gonna talk to elon about getting at omni destiny. The verified twitter account on venessa. So it sounds like a lot, so gracious of you, I can't believe you would do that for me, You admit that you try to evade the ban. Multiple times was sure would be very low, upon you know. I heard that in norway in their prison system they don't actually punish you for trying to escape jail because that's like the natural human thing to do, hug you or I dunno, if they, but they don't punished because, of course, you're trying to be free. That's all I'm trying to be on twitter, I'm just trying to be free. The natural human nature here, of course, is to benefit you're, not a destructive force. Your zhao, I'm a pause, I'm a force for good. That's why all my consulting get banned for banning vanish. I don't get bamford, bad things very adam progressive show, unlike far left, I love like progressive causes out. This is where you criticise us, for being, I shall them from a place of. First principles from a mindless ai, echoing kind, and see your free thinking but again eggs

Finally, I call weren't you will return to some parties, those beautiful wiki key, tell us about yourself. You also fell streamer year story. I stream- and I started to me because I'm at him physically kinder than but I dont do the politics. I do like travels or talk about relationships. Talk to my audience. Basically, your from the possible rights we need to set a did you scale from prison and they did it because I was not aware of this as the fact that we are actually I've been to sweden a bunch of times. I love it that there's a tech sector that is really like flourishing. Where did you go which city I went to stockholm? I think I gave a few lectures there. There's a vibrant tech sector at school and people are super nice over friendly we're not like very deep, like we're, not really how much deep conversations the oh there's, not many intellectuals that come from sweden, but we don't really speak very highly of ourselves, but kind of like just show the times. We don't make a scene

we just like they're gonna, do know the name for that, as this is civic name for it. It's the login he had the land and yellow bulgaria or there's a philosophy behind it. When you're, part of like Sweden or norway you'd, like you, don't talk too highly of yourself because it's seen as kind of like rude like think of like america, the exact opposite yet even really want on it. You don't want to make yourself into a victim too much. You don't want to be too much of anything. You're dislike sticking to the to the grip to make big scene about yourself. But that said, you came here and you are you put your. The camera became the owners on how we're that is, for my friends in sweden, I just don't talk about myself- and it's like make a big deal about myself for hours every day that, like terrifying, did you have anxiety about that? No because I don't see them, but then I come back and I'm like ooh Let us avoid out if you're going out, she's dreamy feel like you're just alone, one on one type. In the know. I see I see the shadow, I'm thinking other, like a lot of fairies, do not really real they're, just like out there. I dunno did look like. I just see little names and they're just cute,

the colors you're talking to a little fairies and the how you feel watch at their demands for me, but they're demons I get my anna varies. Are they social chatter source of stress or happiness like Zurich? Now, for me, that's a source of happiness. I've been very intentional with like the construction of my community, so I'm really happy with where it's at. How are you able to actually have deep political discourse while playing a video game? At the same time, I have a really good chat room and I like the way that people engage Conversations like I was one of the earliest people to embrace the philosophy of like I am in total control of what people watch me think that, like I have a high level responsibility for how they conduct themselves and thereby conduct myself, in a certain way, I can expect a certain level of conduct from them and for the most part, it's like work pretty well for the past. You know nine or ten years yeah. What about the actual playing of the game? A gable to paralyze? The brain like, oh, like it seems like factory, seems like a super complex game yeah. I don't actually think that's possible. I don't think multitasking for human brain is possible and if you see me playing

game. Usually what's happening is the conversation is like I've, had it a million times, so I'm not thinking about it. I've automated that or the conversation is very challenging and then, if you watch me, if you really watch what's happening, I'm probably running around in circles cause. I have to think about the conversation. Okay, because, with factory it looks like a lot of stuff has gone on. It's also hems yeah, so I guess: for a precise and played again to detect that you're not actually top. Is that your super intelligent can multitask, or does it come off as like he's not interested in this conversation at all yeah, there's a coolness to it like when you narbonnais attention like do. If, if you looking elsewhere, eu checking your phone you're too cool for his collar is there is this as like yeah. The reality is, though, is if you watch it was easier to see in minecraft, because in minecraft, when there was a challenging conversation, if you watch me play I'm literally just running around and jumping in circles cause, I have to think about the conversation, one hundred percent, I can't do a complicated task and think about the conversation or like that people always joke on my chat like oh, no, the notepad came out if it's a really challenging conversation, all get rid of the game and I'll bring on a notepad and start writing stuff down to keep track of. What's going,

yeah. So what kind of stuff do you stream so advice? He talked about like either. I talked to chatter at travel around basically, linker did have a camera nations or we like gotta countries like italy was initially like one and a half months just sector, walking around alone, going to cities like having, like my camera with me and like streaming for hours, where's that where's the coolest place you've been to ever. It's probably new zealand. Usually I think so after is probably going to be ITALY. I think, because I like history and impossible history because new zealand is also beautiful, it has both natural beauty and historical be yeah for then just really like the the the polynesian sort of culture things things very interesting like the ocean people and is just really beautiful, people are very relaxed, show their very far away, which is interesting as well boncassen whenever they talk by Paul take so they talk about is like the world. It was really fahrway towards home. Through is awesome,

did you home for me said that you were being pavia? We travel, we ve lived in a lotta, robust and travel area, so that's what you think of home as I've made some young mean, if the, if they gotta be a place, this public enemy, like my childhood places, probably like my old country house, something like that. We don't have it anymore, but, like that's, that's like home for burgers, so you guys meet your curling married yes to each other. You know each other expenditure on this article? How did you guys meet that was watching his youtube stuff like two thousand and eighteen? I think like because it was disputed election around that time most interest in politics, and then I think it here said in one of his videos that he had an instagram and He needed people to stop the immingham, that wasn't q tip ice, and then I must since I am I a cue to buy and the european like two minutes

and then the boat. That's when I was a museum, I guess you wanted to escape america or like delay for a little bit and were easy on where were you mentally there, because we ve talked to his timeline? Worse to those eighteen was an eighty maintained. Where is the low point, as as I was way, early low pile carpet cleaning that was like two thousand and nine two thousand and ten okay, this is an atm is probably your peak when he now is my people. Do you mean that five years you say that nor that of knowing nobody ever it miss being passed their prime just jesse me well, from a study was around. It was probably around the time where you were getting a lotta left these three community, and you are really like thinking about that. They would go too far. Maybe that was that was stolen. Hassan advice were both in my community. Exactly as I would say, if you,

It feels like there was not really like much issues when it comes to like to your stuff or like your work stuff back then, oh suddenly, we didn't talk about. Is it like? There were no politics on twitch, I exclusively inhabited that place for like two years, because nobody else did it cause. It was a really toxic environment for politics. So for a couple of years, as it grew like the I kind of grew the whole space because it wasn't, nobody was doing it. What does that look like? if you're, having like political debates, political discourse yeah mainly like going into youtube people to try to argue with them or just doing politics on stream like reading stories researching stuff talking about stuff? But there's not like other people on twitch to debate about politics, as there was no politics, I was yeah. Was there a debate in the space of communism, socialism, social democrat Democrats like this age, you darling your position during that time. It was mainly me fighting against conservatives because it was like trump stuff and then it was coming off the back of like there is movement, gamer gate, and there is all this anti

It's true w stuff on the internet, and I was like the s J w, like the progressive that was fighting on the progressive side of things. So I think that's what I was known for, but I was fighting with people off of twitch cause on twitch there weren't very many political discussions opening sea were holding their as J w flag, yet to what two degrees to hold it. It was the best was still men case for She tell you, I mean, like I'm, still very much, that extra w from twenty eight ten twenty nineteen, but the positions of moves so much farther left. That makes something Why not call me that anymore? I'm not sure it depends on who I'm talking to is basically what is a social justice way like being sensitive to the experience of others. Yeah, being sensitive and empathetic towards the expense of others and then trying to build a better world that, like suits as many different types of people as possible, while being like a like an aids? Ok,. And so u s method, for what you from your perspective is the does she she's turn wise, accurate, nice, pretty accurate, ok when you guys actually meet. I flew out in twenty nine tanzania in February the basically there

like weird stuff happening allay. I just come off of kind of a weird, not kind of sort of relationship, and I just wanted a like go away for a while another. When he reached out to me and they had like a fun streaming device and they said they'd sponsor a trip. If I went somewhere and was like oh well, I know this person, I know a couple. People in new zealand molina was one Like other was going to be zealand fun, and I might add that for two weeks as believe in love. Hey, I feel like you're. You lack the gods share, got us into this, I'm not sure the degree to which you have human emotions. I have quite a few from your perspective. When did you? When did you fall in love with milan you've only with Mellie mell the minute I saw her, I don't know we are first two weeks together where a lot of fun. We have a lot of chemistry in person. I was gonna shocked that wasn't thinking about it because it was like we spend like a week together, and he said I want to tell you something, and you really don't remember. You were like stalling that for the longest time. I think she was oh. She said like

You know you raise a good, just like every lacking in ever really happens. Does what he said like? No- and I thought you guys that bother let's tell we said trump getting banned from twitter, is we were talking about? Were better oh yeah, the agreement we coming out. Of course, some gonna be doing those alone, so hollow that take two weeks. You said that too, like a week, No, I dunno. I think was just like things my mind processes like information, so quickly too weak, if somebody like you is actually like yours for me, like me, yes, there's just there was like a lot of like factorio type of strategic thinking he had gone on. I was seeing like all the events like doktor, stranger, it ever avengers. When he's like sing- and although he saw me, you just saw the future guys living alone and you do like some game theoretic simulation of all the possible outcomes. Exactly but no yeah, I was probably pretty soon. I realized that we have a lot of chemistry before I left after my two weeks there was like we need to make sure you get like a ticket to come visit me. The united states cause it'll, be

and everything, and then I kind of decided that last minute too, it was like bam really like five hours before your flight back, we kind of realized because cause it was kind of like men is just like a one time thing, and then that was it but we're like. Although there's a lot of fun, we should probably out again also you realize you'd miss each other yeah yeah yeah, I'm attempting the melancholy side of love. Okay. What did you follow suit I thought he like hated me. I dunno, I thought not hate him. She still thinks ahead, but I know I know I I remember like what what he said that he really liked me. I was kind of a little shocked about that, I I don't know there was a lot of like random things happening in use. The other was a lot of fun, but it was definitely make very interesting like things that happen, because I was a kid around a lot of other people, as we also thought he might have had like a really bad time by when you so that I was thinking about it more than we spent like more time together.

a week after then- and it felt like I was more like real and I think when he was about to leave, I kind of realised, like I really like him, did you guys ever say love to each other. Like I love you pursue right, Why would you ask that? What does he said before? Because I haven't done anything? I've heard use speak the item of hers. talk about love is when you're like criticizing the red pill community sing, they don't ever talk about love and relationships, almost all the time of giving criticism. People like I said, I'm kind of stepping and I'm very disconnected from my own emotional experience, cause I'm trying to talk with him there. So it's pretty rare that I'll talk about what is your own emotional experience exactly highly blunted? I, There is a lot that mean only what what's the was deepen their eyes are you? Is it It's who you are genetic theory running for something. I think I have a pretty good understanding myself. A lot of people will make that accusation to me, but I don't think I am okay. This is just who you are, which is why ama does not childhood stuff like trauma. Ah, it's all started and done

You figured it all out in your old age as I grow every year I figure more more. He did mention. I think I heard this. Whether this is a source of fights for the two of you, the h thing, I thought the edges and throughout this whole conversation is basically saying that a gamble slang time he just like, I think she will be good later and then just like. Investment in the thought. That's like what is doing what it has a treasure abundant. you're, a real, a casual fires, the stocks going up or its tumultuous they went orange like the outgoing mail. If you guys do mine, an interesting aspect through your relationship is you're in an open relationship. What's that, like from a game, theoretic simulation perspective, what went into that calculation and I caught? Is that like how it started or how did that started? Sure the only relationships I've ever done has been open relationships, since I was like in high school cause, I

really understand why? Wouldn't you be able to like do other things, but other people for then just like have your main partner. Basically, so what would is an open relationship? early speaking of one mind. Elinor nano monogamous relationship like yours, somehow allowed like in different ways. You can see other people sexually sexually. but like there's one main We still have to be there for some people, like, I don't think it's probably easier and we problem, don't really have time or the energy for like more than like one person to like really like what about like emotional, it's really complicated. I was a lot of complicated stuff going on under the hood there yeah and I think. Broadly speaking, you ve got like polly amorous relationships and you ve got like open relationships were polly amorous like oh. I've got like three different girlfriends hang out or sometimes even ve, together or three three, whereas and then any rate like open relations it was like. Oh, you know like you can basically hook up with other people and then you've got like your main relationship and that's it. I think ours is,

way somewhere in the middle of that to where, like we've, got like long term friends, some of them we hook up with and that's kind of how we yeah it's a delicate dance that explodes every six months on us off its value s fight over. We fight over some things in it, I think it's mostly because a lot of people can handle it and they They agree to something and they realize the very way to call an get really obsessed them. They think that they can like get in there and, I guess, really dramatic had not figured it out like I fearlessly figure out things more and more like when it comes to like, what's a good person for us to hang out and what's not a good person for us to hang out with or like ipods have more opinions like who he hangs out with because he likes the fucking psycho. How do you like this? You like they not like the crazy ones like the baby traps are women. the ones- and I don't like that- affects me better folks- your

theoretically issues they are right. You like this. Are you so fight in general, you ve talked about with crazy people. I say crazy. I really shouldn't assess humorous website. Yeah is very unstable, very can be unstable, but people that are very unique like when I meet this person. That's, I am boring, yeah not boring, and you said the year progressively becoming not boring yourself. Now I think I'm pretty stable. I dont let them if I very much, but she you don't think they affect your now that if I've said that I set a juggler thing of like I've got my stuff like really well figured out it's what allows me to engage with people like this so easily, because I can engage, I can make them feel scene, heard and then, if it gets insane, I can cut off and I can be chill like very few things affect me in the long term. You guys spoons jealousy usually like whenever I feel like he's, not spending the like them on a time that I'm asking form. Unease

Ben said on his video games or to his stream or, like you say, Sisa someone else like more than he sees me or something like that. I would like not be good cause and effects like our relationship to have a good sense of like. Is it literally time or is it the energy put into the it's probably like if like, if he's with me, that, like the attention in the time like when he hangs out with me and then there's also probably the time so if I feel like something else is distracting too much like it could be work or it could be a friend or it could be anything like if I feel like it starts to take away from like me, then I am having an issue with it. I don't think he Who cares march? I guess they only jealousy you experiences, probably when you feel like like, if I get upset about him, seeing someone too much and then I go see someone more and then he's like. Why can I go see my friend more like as much as you so like that's a sort of like that? they were trying to navigate ana gomes and we.

We are like the diametrically opposed. Sometimes it has a how we view like engage our people. Our engagement, the world sometimes so like on her end of the spectrum like a perfect weak for her, might be like being in a cabin. Why? like fireflies at night, going hiding every morning they go swimming at the beach because it's like you're taking, unlike the grandeur of nature, you're like connected with yourself you'll like very at peace. Everything is like chill and cool. There's the wind, the feeling of major everything. That's like her peak living, expert, relaxing press and the outline and, like my leg, experiences, are like people trying to destroy my life like the challenge of like navigating, really complicated discussion. Like you, several different, dramatic events unfolding that my my career, like these things, I like very I like to stress, and the action in the entertainment areas, are very cool for me, so we're together. She only wants me to be like more chill. I feel like I'm being like, stimulated a lot. Then it's easy for, like my mind, a one especially one somewhere else. That's kind of the issue. We have a very different way of like engaging with them. So how can you find happiness and stillness I feel like if,

it's like a aware of it and we're trying our best like whenever we eat like we're supposed to do one thing. So let's say that we want to go to new york and I'm like we should just like go out and do this one specific thing: we try to find something that he enjoys doing like in other contexts you can go shooting or do something fun that he enjoys. Then we can do it and- and then I think like just like for me, also to be aware that, like when he spends lots of time on crazy people, it's not because he like loves them or wants to be with them, it's just because he likes being like having having his life destroyed. Like you said I dont really do is a completely different thing so like for me to like understand more like how he's thinking, because so different from mine and for him I understand who I'm thinking about things like what I pure ties in my life. I think that's a coward navigate, but I think it's good I differences can be good like one refining away him. What I think you're you're relate a bull

yeah more of a very difficult to get along, like I always tell people that, like if you're dating me for, like more than a few years, you get like a war zone that you've survived absolutely the year like a veteran, you get metals and stuff, and it's always like, I think, there's probably been like six different. I don't think she says anymore, but there are like six seven times in our relation where she's like. Is it always like as yet and, like every knows jar, beginning of other, they, like you, were lying about. The wording we were now you're like nice is like right now, I'm having a huge argument on line above thing, then we're in private. Going to be like this and I'm gonna be streaming twenty four hours a day said, unlike were like, What are you gonna to to bed? It's been a week was playing league. Enter into this labelling? Lena I'm clean of leak like six months rent. What? What? What are you? I hate about legal?

I never gave means, while speaking of which I my participation in league involved and the robots I'd good cause. If that's that's, an improvement can guess, but the stark our to end and illegal legends goes openly. I indeed mind are both, but to spain creating bossin us. I was a professional serve to places, I remember when the ai started to play? It's interesting. The types of restrictions do that you'd have to put on like a gaming robot to make it like functional and not totally unfair other sailor. He had to make a human like he was at issue here to see I be able to play. The video give, I think in some ways people think things are more common than they actually are anything video games is one of those things are really got a million possibilities at every second and who not like now, there's like three or four things go on any point in time and I'm willing to bet that, like an ape,

I could probably saw some of these games like pretty easily and especially if there are no constraints on how they can learn. You can talk to you or relationships we already have so yeah. I know, but more generally speaking, we we didn't get a chance to talk about the the red pill- community, osha or first of all, what is the ripple community, the mesosphere in general, I'd like to get both europeans on this show. I know I know you're, probably not as opinionated, and I would even go like a poet as you like as much as you, but I do have opinions. Do you ok, I usually bowling, speak out too much on it, because I feel like there's like a language barrier. I does my dont really repulsive spear. Does my second language, the site I you have to know the a lot of it. I know how to use have do use derogatory terms every other satins, so they understand they re like land as you're sleeping about it's. The only allow me like a good, like you need to be able to like speak really well for people to take your seriously. I think and like that

like, if I don't have like the words that I don't have the like, I can't pronounced things correctly searching for words like stupid. Actually is and thus how people view and tell me about it. I have a podcast that people listen to and a mumble in a year. Where does your what's your first language, russian, okay, but I speak both languages horribly and just not I'm not like. That is definitely a big disconnect between my brain and my mouth module like I'm, not able to generate the thoughts efficiently like the things you are able to do it, that the experts like that, I'm not very, very tough clusters. huge amount of anxiety and social interaction that I have, which may speaking even harder, gotcha yeah now yeah, it's tough, I understand gotcha, I can maintenance yeah, the the gotcha is both a civil.

Well if compassion and derision at once is unjust. Let you know, I understood what you said: I'm not going to sit there and stare at you and say like yeah, I get it like yeah gotcha, gotcha gotcha. I know it's so it's so short. what you say say say it's longer sentence, but that means the same thing. I understand you yeah, that's good! That's not chills! You know you get chills. Although I understand me, yeah feels good yeah. I hear you, I hear you and like if you just like all the other person's hand, as even though you gonna put in some emotion that show that you have some Look at what come from What worrying about red pill, what a sight? What what is it? First of all for Burana? He had the red pill community. Obviously it's the matrix reference. The red pill that you take is when you re lies? What dating standards and norms really are in the world that men,

a provider is enough to become some great thing to hunt and attract. You know the woman who are just kind of their floating around looking for people to give them the most resources, and it's like com. to a realisation of what the world of dating really as broken away from the hollywood standards in the romantic stuff, they try to sell you in the stores that there was kind of. Maybe you can kind of educate, menace, but read pill used to be associated with justice maybe anti establishment use, I dunno, maybe maybe republican conservative viewpoint right yeah. They use red pill a lot and like different communities like when you say the red pill. Community, that's usually means dating a dating thing, but a lot of people say: oh trump, voters the red pill to you red pill. Don't like politics, whatever people say stuff like that: okay cool and then there's like the mannose fear. That's all

the type of stuff and andrew tate is somebody that represents kind of the figurehead of the manor sphere of like the red pill, stuff yeah, I would say so- I'm pretty sure, yeah, okay, alright cool. So what are some ideas that they represent? And what do you think about them? I think they do. A good job at speaking to effected. Young men who feel like the rest of the world is kind of left them behind were isn't willing to speak to them and they do. I do by some true and real problems facing on the last. We have a really hard time doing like self improvement or telling people how to at themselves. We focus too much on like structural or systemic issues, rather than what can an individual do to uplift or empower themselves, and it also feels like they do a good job at speaking to some of the positive aspects of masculinity. It's ok to be like strong and break Ivana soldier and a warrior and provide for your family and blah blah blah of like those are like positive messages like self improvement and everything that come from the red pill community. What's the negative

I think the analysis on how men and women in Iraq is a way to transactional all of life. There it says in love and chemistry is totally sucked out of it. Everything is very like sex based like how do you basically sex or the most men and women possible. That's gonna make you happy and then I think people's motivation sometimes are Just spoken about in such a shallow derogatory way that anything is always reflective of reality. Like woman. Only to you, because you make six figures in your tall and a galley wants you cause, you must have sex, the arab? I like it felt like there's a lot of back on a lot Mrs some fundamental aspects about relationships but meaningful relationships and so on. never had read pill. People ever ever talk about like meaningful relationship as always is how to get in one or had I've sacks really mobile. You about some of that philosophy. I feel like the people that I, like the right people. Filling their solution is something that doesn't actually work out.

I get worried work out. It works out for some people and people that makes a lot of money is like really successful in that sort of way, but it's not going to help most men out there. So I feel like it's just like a pointless like speech to give to these, like he lost skies and they really do believe that they can like they can become successful. They can I get money and like what and when they get all these things that can get girls, but muslim is not going to achieve that ever the money part or become success well just become a billionaire, you know like, and you will get all the girls in which is true, but not everyone can do that. So I feel like when these guys are speaking to these men and there's like we just care about these men out there. You know they need to hear this. It doesn't really help a lot of them and it doesn't inspire them to develop compassion. Towards the opposite sex, which is probably something required to have that as the relationship and also like the they seem to complain a lot about women, like only

the wanting men that have money and that's tall and that's muscular whatever you know all those things and and but the the complain about that. But that's like also kind of what they're trying to make the men tried to do for themselves. So they kind of like falling, The same sort of behaviour in the same sector cannot unaware of that as well that just playing a part of the game. Instead of of trying to find a woman that doesn't look for those things and that are looking for not those I am actually actually would love to like a shred of data, and people in the world is not in our world. How often they get laid down like literally. So I think For sure people in the world have fewer meaningful, long term relationships their fulfilling, actually help them succeed in life. They helped and be happy another cause of, but just even the strait of the shallow gulf again laid. I wonder because

is very possible that, like just the roughness with which they treat intellect women there might be, He too blower success. Not higher success very adversarial, which I think is always disappointing anything that talks about men and women. I think it's good to acknowledge differences, but when it becomes like for cereal, especially when you talk about sex exe something that men are getting and it's one that women are giving and that type of like trade off in the way they talk about. It is like yeah. It sets people against each other in a really toxic way. I think how do you talk to people from that world from the red pill world? Like? Would you would you ever talk to like somebody like agitate? Oh yeah, fyi the chance to have been on the fresh and fit podcast a few times, and then I've got a friend sneaker who's like very red pill that stuff and if I'm trying to talk them, usually the it's kind of like approaching it like a scared cat. The first thing you have to do is like be very

gentle and say like. I understand your issues, I understand your complaints and know that you're, I'm scary, because you think I'm gonna say like toxic masculinity and feminism and all these scary words at you. So the first thing is always to recognize that, like a lot of what they talk about, there are like true aspects to what they're talking about that people on the left won't recognize. So I think it's good to acknowledge things that, like many women, are kind of different, we do look for different things in journal when it comes to relationships, is ok to say that it is only bad there and then Usually we like once I got your trust and I'm in your bubble, like let's talk about the things that you want and maybe the ex some of the strategies that europe aren't necessarily gonna get you some of the things you want so France's if you're, really worried about, like shallow girls like ruining your life like molina, said it's probably not best to build your entire world we're trying to get shallow girls are gonna, run your life. I give your way of attack A girl is to go to the jam, get a whole bunch of money and try to like flight europe as much as possible. It you're gonna, be attracted the very same. Of women that you're here like decrying on your stream, giving we talked about that about

cause like you probably want to have a woman that is going to be there if you lose your job still there length. That cares about the things. That's not just your job, though, and it's more stable and also don't help you become a great man or great like grow like I feel like wait, friendship and a partnership I get. How did you make you about a person, some more success? people. I know any their families and their clearly dynamic there that psych that makes them they wouldn't be that without their not an island, yeah yeah and I, the kids, actually a big part of that too, like for most. Well, if you're like a good parents, they make you step up somehow in life. You have to take responsibility for get your shit together and excelling in ways that I give the floor spheres were pulled, does not quite get to. That is always an interesting thing. I've asked at a couple of times where it's like. Would you let your daughter date, Andrew tate and finally to watch uneconomic, squirm around those answers, but safety

if they don't have a daughter I got you know I don't have a daughter. I think your whole philosophy changes once you have a dog Are they like they? Can they know that what they're answering they feel a little bit weird about? It is funny to watch them like they. Even they know it's like a half and will they They might say, like a woman dies day like a high value. Male two degrees the high value. Well, yes, but like I, you feel that way: the definition of high value changes fleet for cheyenne, certainly the stereotypical typical measures value contribute to the calculation, but is so much more than that. I think the chemist show the whole thing is bigger. Are you also mentioned bob body count you guys both have a high bicycle, his body count matter or depends light leg he said is low and some people what is its high in other people's eyes does bicycle matter in relation to the past matter. Toward the past, matters are not only bought account, not a man only like I'm, not just as it is now. I may a category asked us here: will the passes who you are

they somebody does. He like they haven't two hundred body count and are sixteen something's, probably gonna It's not good. I was thinking that too, like it could be. Like really young people that are having some sort of like mental keeps going on or somebody's like yeah forty, five and they've like never had sex before, there's, probably something going on right now that could be indicative, but if somebody's like in their twenties and they've had sex, have you know one hundred people or fifty the people or whatever it's? You know, whatever has more experience which can be good, cho, okay, so that does just represents the lexus sexually open, and so it doesn't really necessarily I mean and yukata, not necessarily a though the number alone doesn't mean anything now, okay, well, you could meet a guy. That's like I just really really like when a fucking lot of people, because it makes me cool you're, going to be that we're just like the money

it doesn't matter but like what, where it comes from yeah we're like why. Why have you slept with the police? Up with this? Does it hurt like the romantic aspect, relationship knowing that there's a lot of people in the past I had enough for us now is part of the relationship. Fundamentally romantic for us. Yeah, it's an okay, hey! Why He come on for such a cold. Birth now was just in my head thinking that I wanted to just say: gotcha. There is so judgmental I think when, when it comes to the sex thing, there is always like the way that I explain it as an accent like I have to say this cause I don't the key for what I do for everybody or what she does. Everybody has obviously as a whole, bunch of natural feelings of jealousy that pop up for a lot of people when people ask I mean. You know it's always like. Oh, like isn't this like horrible that you guys are doing this and you don't love each other. From my perspective, I can have sex with like any person and it can be sex like that's, not like a special thing between two people. In my eyes, it's like anybody can have sex, but there are like certain activities,

ways you can spend time with each other, where you're, like carving out these like precious little moments in time with a certain person, can do things that are special to that person and those of the kind of like events that I remember more than anything else so like the idea of like like oh, I had sex with a verse that was so special doesn't mean as much as like you know, ass travelling to like me, thailand or showing some special moment doing like some really fun activity or event or another. That's usually I like. I am so a shared intimate moment, yeah, I kind of green, but I can definitely connect the romance bits ex boy. I'm just because you want to save us from the rumble us exactly also talked about massaging english is the clue the environment that what we say There is some. There is a connection between romance, and here I think it is because I think sex could be a lot of things I its bit. Some sort of bonding I'd say I'm way they say that you really like video sam. You cannot, like you, become submissive to someone.

Or you take controllers, someone in certain very bonding like intimate moment, I'd say in those romantic they intimacies or may. I think it is evident. Show yourself is really said: miss Sarah like weak or new. Like absolutely control over yourself and you let someone else, do it or you or the one being that, like you, are the dominant for some one. I think that's a really thick intimate thing cause you show like the weakest part of yourself kind of, like I personally to me sunk, a border messing with me this not judging to others to me. Maybe it's hawes brought up the romance increases. If the number of intimate interact actions are limited to one person like for me for some reason: spreading it out, decreases like exponentially the feeling of romance. If you are the aeronaut dunno that there could be just like sir, grown up in the soviet union as a kind does, the fairy

el stories, you kind. be living through them? yeah? I mean, I think, what you're saying is really normal, like most people probably feel that way, but but because you guys able to successfully I do that I just want to question my own understanding of it. You know like like. Why is that Why is that? Why am I being very jealous reason like. Maybe you can maximum number of intimate experiences if you just open open but go jealousy essentially finger. I villikins, Sweden, like in scandinavia, were extremely just sexually open, like in general, we we're not like super villages either were very like relaxed. We don't like we don't feel bad about her, so that there is a different sort of thing and I would say that its were more progress than when it comes to feminism is of so It's more commonly will meet women with a higher body count than link when I meet like can girls all of them? I am like prejudice smell, like super suppress like sexually and never

what war disease you. They have like issues too, like the can't relax during such as her ass for them. Veterinary service prejudice was noted. Call young I so like. I meet so many girls that are having like a lot of issues with sex and they have like a very low body count because they just can't relax or the yeah and it's and usually they come from like a very religious background, and so they should have just been told like you cannot wear that. You cannot be like that. You can't, like you know and like where I grew up doesn't like that at all. But you see it is more like a casual thing so that you can just maximize. the analysis of the experience yeah. I guess I didn't have harrowing exactly, and I think that idea. One thing I think for everybody to realize is: there's always pros and cons to everything like my lifestyle, like obviously good, to have a lot of fun experiences. That's like a huge pro and that's super. Cool and if you're, like I'm more monogamy brain person, you're not gonna, get those experiences but fear monogamy, brain person like when you're sure, that special moment atomic somebody else like that moment could be really really really special, because now

The thing that you're showing yourself and open yourself up to another person and they're, only trusting you to do that, and that's like a really special thing that only the two of you are sharing with each other. So I mean like there's always like pros and cons to everything like. I think we both would say like thank doing open relationship is probably not like. We would not under the thing, the other things we would know the recently facile for three days and they ate a chicken breasts after that, it was like the most delicious food. I've ever eaten. So, like there's some aspect of fasting and scarcity, and so on that again you have to figure out would for your own sake. He would horse the person's got to be a little bored or like not the thing or like, because you can just enjoy the time when you're doing something really fun and is more fun, otherwise you're just going to get number in general with everything yeah yeah, I personally just never get bored like. I guess the the boring things exciting to me, though, just like you're like me, cause you cause everything

ilike is boring? I gotta ask you: we talked about misogyny in the in the she's trying to battle it on the internet. What's what's your? What's your sense as a woman, but the level of assigning any internet Jimmy community and how to fight it. For me is I get I get. I guess I get it every single day somehow like, because I have an online like ava chat. That goes that slide right and but I have like mods moderating that all the time said really need to see much of it. I think it is pretty annoying because you get too like see it all the time become a background? Noise yeah, what a been like the same commons over and over again, but is usually for me. I don't personal care that money I understand that other people do, especially when it comes into like when there's a lot of sexism and stuff and when there is a lot of like men, not taking very seriously like a definite get that, and I used to get that even more like a few years ago, with my actions

everything in like I used to be blonde as well a few months ago cause. I really people wouldn't take me seriously because of that the big annoying, but I feel like it's pretty easy to like seat when someone acts that way and for me personally, I don't really care, but, and it's a bit annoying, mike being online and like getting stuff every single day, it would say, like the probably the worst thing is when you feel like you put in a lot of effort into some sort of work, Everyone is just going to say you just got that because you're, a woman and you're attractive and as that's probably like the worst thing, is there a way to fight that you think he? I don't think you can. I think it just comes up all the time just like That is what it is. I guess you just gotta keep doing whatever you do like. Don't let it like emotionally control you somehow. I think I have more women and those spaces are scarce. they got here. Like a lot of guys, you can tell him. I went on a ring on the worst ones, then start learning the cdc. She doesn't have the massage anything by having some bad, withdraw she's, saying all whom you well. You know it's true rights

We do not agree with you, and I am always in both the eu and therefore wiser rights by world. I think globally, where we can finally matthew an army that combined age, be. It could be the same thing as like. Also they age thing in that Woman thing. A lot of people think that I'm just copy every single thing that he says, which I think has been annoying. I can never really like hassan accused or about what yeah, which is very annoying much. You know I was about the funding Please do not cover initiates. Camaraderie and love and respect which you both have had for its I'm and have lost then I would like you to regain it does try to increase, not decrease, they might have love in the place. Where do you think about some of the harshness of those of his language, which reads about our word in the past when he used and word of that kind of stuff funny reuse. It here I mean I know what you think about it. I d give advice to not speaks a certain way. Now, like a little more civility, I just trying to get

second opinion on the second infant about army. Well non internet people are way more extreme than yeah No, that's not true. Ok, it's ok! It's a good thing for me. Ok, I was not online until three years ago at all, like I would watch youtube, that's pretty much! All I would do. I wouldn't do anything else. Really. I didn't grappling with games or anything some extremely new to everything, and so, when I came into this world and I started seeing clips from. in the past and to get really how much an opinion, because it just sounded like it was just a different like words that we use embedded in a mean anything as what it feels it was just like increasing the r word is because you just want Kosovo stupid, but you won't I'd like due to a little bit more like, but it's not like you didn't feel like it was. I come like raises more, like you know, it's not agreement on the site so like

It was saying the f word, because it was just like a word to like insult someone and he was like. I don't think he was ever. I don't think you were ever homophobic back in the day or anything like that, but I think he was just like a way to express. Yourself. Maybe back then, on an item. Do it there's. Nobody is a mere anything because I wasn't even align back in my case, I definitely think soon is homophobic three of those, obviously so that there's a good heart there and a good mind. I was just saying it is like being mean this thing or there's some. You lose yourself and forget the bigger picture that he's pushing for more effective this. Course on the internet. User can aspiration to a lot of people, especially now, like you can use effective conversation to make for better world to direct radicalized people and so on, and then you lose some of that power by losing yourself and in like the languishes, more language of emotion, verses or effective. litigation outside its grey area. I would say like something that his problem

recently done in that case, because he's been joking by women alone, her, like its women's fault or bad luck, is just it's been like a lot of jokes when it comes to misogyny Agus than your community, and I think it's actually turn people whatever their way. Thus, wives were done in recent years so that I guess that's it's true, because I don't think he was pretty. I don't think he was clear enough. I don't think it actually was. I think he did that mistake and, but I think back then I was even saying like he should probably not like your product. You probably should not do that. Because it actually is pretty hard for me, because whenever I come into his computer, like his chat, people are just going to spam. It's like a woman moaning There's a woman moment whenever I say something and it's gonna like yeah is Pretty annoying, as I said it's annoying when you see it every single day in there, you go them from somebody younger than you. Wasn't it come from you have more than just sunlight will have very limited quantities at an early age. Roy

on sunday for anybody. What advice would you give to our young people, the both of you that the of both audiences, where young people look up to you in general, if you were to give advice to somebody high school, like huddled create a life that can be proud of. What would you say the most important thing that I've learned is to view people as different and not better or worse worse and when you ve people is different set of better or worse. You learn that there is or something you can learn from anybody like the open and empathetic for other people's experiences but he does anything by random choice like, as always reasons why people act where they do and as long as you're willing to kind of like be open and receptive to the lived experiences of other people, you're gonna be able to gather and nation and create like a more cohesive, a better view of the world and any of your peers. Well give any kind. advice you go to young farmers. We will, I feel like something that I see special in america lot. Is that a lot of people can I get told what

early on linking high school they're supposed to become this thing like education, wise, like they're supposed to like, become a doctor, or this thing or whatever, and then they can just like give up on things that they're actually passionate about. So I think a lot of teen just get really confused. They get in, education, and then they get the job and they hate everything, and they think that wonder the reaching the job when they're reaching like the journey they're going to get happy, that's like where the happen is going to be, but then when they get to there, they just hate everything and dig up and become really depressed and I've seen this so much like. I see this all the time and it's it's pretty sad to me to see so many people that are just wasting time and then they're just really confused, and I don't know it's the same thing with relationships to no one really knows what they want anymore. I feel if everyone is just and doing whatever like society saying where the parents are saying on their friends are saying: I don't do it

they never really doing anything. That's super meaningful anymore and like that on. So what I would say is like trying to find something that does it that is important to you. It could be anything really like some sort of passion, maybe, like your friends, maybe like like what matters to you like during that. Those things that I think is really important and comes from being able to listen to you like some in her voice says I animals were really hard because you living there, I feel like there's things happening around new people. Tell you what to do and what not to do, and you know no one really hossack there. as everyone is just gonna like listening to the the cooler thing or except that really seems to stand on his own rethink. Yeah I'd say so in that aspect like something I realized too, like cause. We just went to twitch con and we were talking to a lot of streamers that it was interesting. I I thought it was interests because the to the few people that I feel a guy it seemed really cool and that I look up to like in the streaming world all of the horns to quit streaming all at once. To do it, no one wants like no one likes it and they're so successful

like they are around successful people, they their draw working every single day and working hard making so much money- and everyone is just complaining and like they complaining about like not being able to see their partner or you know, because they need to live somewhere else because eaten. I see these things and they seem extremely unhappy and but it's so hard for them to just a cut all this success for stuff off, because tussock, what you do you know, learn to do, and that's it supposed to be like your happiness, but it isn't. Everyone is really unhappy because there's something about maybe maybes swimming is different, but you do folks to have interact with a few and even in broadcasting space people, become of says about the views and numbers near subscribers and stuff. Like that, I turn I never talk about that. I don't pay attention to the. I feel, like that's a drug that destroys. your mind, your your minds and artists ability,

it is for sure unique things. so you're mine, intercity anxiety. The ups and downs of the attention mechanism and then also being just. If is something that you make is not pay you'll ever meant a lot to you. You will think of less yet because the popular the really dangerous thing and because everyone around you is reinforcing, like I'll get messages like wow. This thing this many views or something great job. They know you don't get it lay. That's not that's, not the adieu. Everyone is enforcing this. Like this language of views and like and so on in its is correlated of course. Construing impact of things will get a lot of attention, often, but it's not and and the individual local scale like temporarily, is

sir, if you really fucked with mine, and then I see that in the creators they become attics to the algorithm. It's been chasing for years like we know, friends, that we know cool people and then they start streaming and eventually they got there like chasing the dragon of like and they changed their. It's like a harder than it looks like this is something I always said that, like one of the biggest blessings and biggest curses of humanity is, we are very good at acclimated like you can become paralysed. You can have all sorts of horrible things have do and you'll get used to it. You'll be ok, you know like a good baseline, but it works the other way too, and that you can get more and more and more and more and you acclimate to it almost immediately. There's like this, amazon that I bet it happens in the youtube world, but I know what happens in the string world where you're streaming, one thousand viewers every day, huge event happens and you blow up and you get like fifteen thousand viewers for a day or two, and then it starts to go down the and down and down it down and then, after all, the drama stared off you're at like three thousand concurrent viewers? Now in the macro, you went from one thousand to three thousand that feels awesome, but you actually

feel like shit, the whole time as you remember, when you had ten or fifteen thousand, and now everything fuels, horrible and you'll, see people climb overtime like fog like boat of that one, extreme ad, like I'd, never blake been able to, and it's like, dude you're doing great. What's yeah that happens a lot there's so many people that we know that we find super super cool, they're, passionate about things. They have so much interest and then they just get like so addicted. To these numbers and like all the everything is ruin like all the cool things about them is ruined because they stopped the things that they actually like to do something else that gives them more viewers more money, and it's really sad to see that temporary sacrifice the seams temper or is it actually destroy you like for one time making a choice they attack castle choices, often like I can do this. You can kind of know. What's gonna, do popular or not Those who suffer question legs is gonna sacrifice because people are sacrificing like intimate relationships, theirs,

pricing time or their family, their sex, but the second rise in time with the things that they feel good about and that they like in something I kind of realized last year, because I was working so much and I was describing gardening running bicycle, it was kind of new for me and then new years came by and I was like wait. What did I even do like the entire year, like I traveled, a bunch of places but nothing actually really meant anything to me, because I feel it goes was working the entire time. A fella goes is numb through the through the sorry year really scary like I rented like a super. pretty house like for a week with my dad, my sister cause. I wanted to spend time with them. The entire time outbursts streaming and I actually do we're like calm down and just like chill with them, and I like that song titled never get back, I don't. I don't give a shit about the money that I made that week, but I lost the time and like that is a really important to me in a year, and a lot of people are doing that and I felt you, as you said, that you can definitely see that, unlike artists for sure I feel like it is

look at like artists, like back in the sixties or seventies. I feel, like things were just so much better back then, and it felt like they were actually making music. That meant something to them. They were actually making art and I feel like today, every It's just kind of like whatever is cool, whatever sells, whatever you know stones in a certain way, everything is kind of the same thing and everything that is very artistic and very cool is actually not that popular at all. In a it's kind of sad I mean you, of course, there's no bigger mechanisms, a platform to spread stuff music, so it is those who could be content with not being popular, I think, is to create the not like when people get a little puppet than to give addicted so fast, weird him. You will have been somewhat good at least four miles out of perspective, because I think he you I can at least imagine you making choices that could make him more popular, and you don't

seem to make those choices satellite on having railroad a dialogue? That is that it is very intentional, like you said like that, I mean that choice at every single stage. My life, one, is because, from the perspective of being a car, clear. My life is way better than that was wherever one and so I'm already doing way better than I ever thought. Somebody like me ever could be, but then too I super love my job. Every time I wake up. Every time I fly to a place to a podcast everytime I get to talk to real. It will be willing every single part of my job. I super like if something I don't like, I just cut it off because I don't care because I'm already making plenty money doing what I do and why would ever wake up and not like what I'm doing when I can like what I'm doing? How do you guys find through that? Given the you love it innocent, ask maybe lose yourself in the drug of it. How do you find a work life balance together. In said, a relationship item for each other. I dont it. Also I'm not a precedent.

what do you love more mile or fact factor factors are really good game. That's like not a fair comparison. Ok, you're talking about one of the best, cleanest games, best support ever made cleanest code basely. I think this is seen ass if more victorious over me Steiner's there, when the mythology classroom always is, is the spectre legit really again, he of course, and I feel like I do enjoy programming. Of course I do us on that. did you like programming is: is the game in itself that enjoy probably more than anything else per year very much a game like that. I'd like your into stuff, like that, like you can lose hundreds of hours like very quickly to like you, have a problem and then I think, of a solution, and then you iterate on that over and over and over again in larger larger schemes, somebody's got to redesign stuff. Someone has got like it's very much like that kind of guy, as he essentially building a factory liquid on a foreign planet or something like that. It's basically it's like a bunch of

trying to automate different problems so that you can build bigger things so that you automate bigger problems. You can build bigger things that automate bigger problems if it was more complicated than like a city building game like some city type of thing, I wouldn't say it's more complicated, it's more like it's like factories, like a game of like logic like strictly like logic like almost like a building a circuit or some yes, yeah. There's like their circuit, and you got your aunt org or gets you like, there's stuff, like that, it's very much like alec run. The enemies in the game like what like signs that china by you- and you can get concept and tell them, but, as I saw there's like shooting goin on here, but I think of my another problem to solve in the game. Basically, oh I see you're we do there. Was you start talking about the game as retrial? Oh, my That's ok! I guess that's horrible anyway. There is that, basically, the struggle lost our struggle. How to get human like intimate human time. I feel it was like that would have been more in the past. The vote has been better lately, but I think it's because

When we started doing, I wasn't streaming and I just like gave up like my trip and new zealand, I give up like like a left sweden, so I was just like in l a which I hate I hate law, I don't like delay at all it's hard to make friends that are like real that are into the same stuff as you it's. It was just really hard for me to Lenny one especially also like being a european and like being are, americans was very strange, so the only thing I had when I came here with him and I and I didn't expect, because because yeah, because we had we had like two, we sub hanging out like he would be on his computer sometimes and do emails and stuff, but I wasn't thinking that he would stream like twelve hours a day and it was pretty quick like he was pretty intense like in the beginning of it as well. I realized it was really hard to like get attention. I get time because he is like love. Meter would be like full if it wishes in the house, and that's just gonna like

he is and for me back then, when I didn't have anything else to do was kind of like those kind of crazy, me. I feel like right now, because I do work as well, and I have things going from for me and I other friends, now that I made if it gets a lot easier. And- and I can definitely like enjoy just like being in separate rooms and just a carom in the background has really nice cycling. I can sit in paints and like in my room, and I will do that for hours while I'm just like hearing a scream in the background is kind of like comforting that he's he's just there and it feels nice. Because to you, that's the sound of happiness cause. I know he's right, there yeah it's nice and they will come in and check on me sometimes and it's it's kind of like it's actually very comforting. It's very nice. I like it and I think, those come, what a relationship is like you'd do fun things together in the EU share moments together, but also just like having someone like IRAN is really really. And I think that's probably maybe it's me growing up

maybe that's what it is and I gotta start liking, like the kind of I feel like we're like an old couple like we're like eighty and we're just like around, we don't really have to talk much. It's it's nice that fills your love meter I don't need you look, I need about thummim. Ok, you met you're, making it sunlike that, unlike craving- I have a second I'm, not saying anything ever so little. Their long face render. Finally secular, you think it was thus sewers. in going on there is no joke. Nobody like we. I think I think, whenever we do plan something on like if we, if on a trip like every other month or once a month. I value Surely like that's enough as long as he's not think victorio the than time leg. If he, if he's going on these just re and he's not like do it's been, the he's not he's not interested in like spending time like being present with me, then I feel, like I just feel exemption. Wasting time are now and then I get come a disappointed, but otherwise I think this like this one. I think this is like spending, the other is really do something together yet smoke. If Bosnia,

my love meters near elaborated as all my social life or the warlike. There really was thinking about it that way, but like any like a little bit more like this one thing the quality time then he needs like, here a quality time, then I must say that we took away like physical touch. You are probably not be very happy. Sudanese president does not just like toil we're very calibre me an early and then you're like a guess, like acts of service like if I do something for you get really happy like hot chocolate, like if I give him hot chocolate in the morning, he gets really happy. So the actual is not the hot chocolate, the giving of the hot chocolate now she's the hot chocolate, but if she gives it to me- and I didn't have to get a physical touch eat like that's really nice I had to choose between factor and the drama or political discourse which only political discourse pellet. My calling, but I am a good victoria player, but what role executive victoria

Wait in your streaming life! Ah well right now it it's usually there like these games that I play in the background. As I have conversation cause it's hard for me to sit on the computer, just talk and not like be playing a game at the same time, so just something to keep me and like occupied in automobile. By like little like a widget things, I guess yeah that's what yours yeah, basically yeah, it's like minecraft factorio for me. Alright, well. My love meter is far from their mouth. Thank you so much for joining us anyway. This is, fuck, you fancy he would beings. Thank you for existing. I am glad to live in a world where you exist. I can't wait to see what kind of beautiful thing you create next and the crazy kind of art that you create through the different people. You interact.

with destiny. Stephen year, amazing human figure, so I should talk to me. It's an honor hoped talk with you again talking bench apparel, you ve. Given me a lot of inspiration, it's an honor to talk to the bench appear of the left, but I thought I might proceedings. I guess I thank you for listening to his car station. Were destiny. Support this by gas. Preacher got our sponsors in the description, and now let me leave you with the words from Lewis Carroll. It's no use gone back to yesterday, because I was a different person. Then, like you for listening and hope to see you next time.