The following is a conversation with Michael mouse. This is special holiday episode and it has made. The special because it tonight in the release of Michael's new book called the white pearl, a tale of good and evil Michael and I disagree on a lot of ideas in politics and philosophy, and we have a lot of fun disagree, but there's no question that he has a deep love for him Andy and puts his heart and soul into his work, especially, His heart wrenching deeply personal book, so I ask that you support him by buying it at white pill, book dot com should hopefully forward to the amazon page. As always, we dressed up in a ridiculous off it without coordinating. the chaos that makes life so damn interesting. This episode is full of humor darkness and love which is the best way to celebrate the holidays and now equipped. You said

Mention of sponsor check them out in a description is the best way to support this bar, got hauser. Macadamia is for delicious macadamia base snacks inside track of her biological monitoring, net sweet for business management and simply say for home security she's wisely. My friends and now onto the full outrage. As always know as the middle, I try to make them interesting. But if you must skip, please tell me out the sponsors in the description I enjoy their stuff. Maybe you will to the show, is bought you buy a new sponsor. A delicious sponsor. Hauser macadamia is a company that ships delicious high quality, healthy, macadamia, nuts, directly tudor I've gotten a shipment? What is it two weeks ago, two weeks ago and I brought happiness in my heart- I will mention which episode, perhaps you might know, but it is a very stressful.

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and nutritionally there's a lot of nice things get. Could thirty percent less carbs than almonds? Let us not debate I pronounced almonds. There are, I think, I'm horrible. This I forget, which is in that way, is the only not rich in omega seven's. This is basically the healthiest, not. I feel like there's a good Can there anyway gotta a macadamia thou canst last legs to get twenty percent the first order? You will not regret at my friends This shows also brought to buy inside tracker a service. I used to try biological data What I want to know is the day that was coming from my heart and mind during the partaking of the macadamia snag edge the great the glorious happiness. I wonder how the body communiques happiness, short term like moment by moment minute by minute, hour by hour day by day weeks years, since the progression

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running a business is really exciting, not for all the things I just mentioned, but for the idea innovation for the design for the engineering, the mass production achieve. Scale for the challenges of bringing down the costs while bringing up the quality. All of those tradeoff. the different people involved, getting to work with and game to be inspired by them. Rethinking things have done in the past. During these telling your way take a huge risk that all that is super exciting and, ultimately you do that to help some aspects of the world. In my case. The dream is to add a little bit of love to the world. How will things that create and me that super saying to me now if a bunch of messy things that are required to make all that happened in fine

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indoor secured a camera plus twenty percent off your order with interactive monitoring Jimmy wants to have a name if a number of terrorism, a house I can do for three d reconstruction and at some point or transfer self into a virtual world and not know it Somebody else's it up saw be living a virtual world with the exact same experience as I haven't the world now, one Maybe some fascinating experiment in that place too, though, would need to be security and I'll, be a perfect construction of the simplest safe system, but in a virtual world now being credible anyway, it's save the dot slash lex, this is Alex Friedman. Podcast supported. Please check on our sponsors in the description and now, dear friends, here's michael malice.

yeah since this is a christmas you're a hearty special. Have you been a good or a bad boy, Michael this year, well, that's interesting one of the people in the book, granville hicks His autobiography starts with. I was a good boy, and a very good boy scale want to turn I'm trying to think of what bad things I've done. Oh, ok, there's that ok way, that's not thou hast. Cells that are there that sorry, I would say, nine the nine year. I try to do the right thing are you sure that's? It is going to a one yeah now extremely self critical. I pushed the zero for the zero well mission accomplished. So this this episode, is announcing the release of the white pill book euro because it

I've gotten the honour, the privilege, the pleasure of being one of the first people to read it you're the first. So I'm really enough nervous is the word, but you are the first person has read it that I am speaking to you about it. My first, my last my everything. Yes, you say that the girls but I'll all they got all the fact that the fund, but by as a true incredible book, is basically a story of evil in the twentieth century and throughout it you reveal a three day gives us hope. Then that's the idea, the white pill there's the book on the red pill, there's the black pill, which is a kind of deeply cynical, maybe pathetic just giving up on the world, given it You see behind the curtain, and given that you don't like what you see given that there is so much suffering in the wool you give up, that's the black pill and the white pill. I suppose

even though you acknowledge that there is even the world you don't give up. Yes, so if you listen to this in your fan of this park, ass to wipe hill block public com, mental go to it white pill, dot com and if you don't know how to spell will probably have a lengthy you can click on so for people will also know. Michael malice is not just the troll, not just the hilarious comedic any us who houses on progress, but he is incredible: brilliant author, dear reader, the are out a bag, kim jong IL. So that's our story. North korea, the new rights, the journey to the fringe of american politics. That's the story of the extremes of the united states. political movements and then their anarchists handbook. Thus talking about the I'd ideologies that four flavors of ideologies of anarchism, but on top that you now going in going into the darkest aspects of the twentieth,

tree with the soviet union and the communism with white pill. So I may ask you started at the beginning at. the end of the nineteenth century? Is you write the term socialist communist and anna? Were you somewhat loosely and interchangeably, because the prophecy marxist city was one in which the state had famously weathered away? There was a great disagreement about what a socialist system would look like in practice, but two things were clear first that socialism was both inevitable scientific, the way, the future and second, that the capitalist, in class, we're not going down without a fight. So what are the key points of disagreement between? the socialists, the anarchist, the communists, along that at that time, at the begin, at the end of the nineteenth century, the beginning of the twenty seven, three, the possibility of the century laid before us that eventually led to the first and the second world war,

The idea of an industrial revolution came and marks was very much a product of industrial revolution, or thinking was okay. Now that we have technology now, of science. We can scientifically manage society. I we saw this. Very much with woodrow wilson and kind of idea, progressive progressivism that unite woogie use technology in kind of not capitalism. In their view, unfettered capitalism was wasteful you're making to my stuff. You have surpluses of shortages, if we produce just exactly what we need- and you have these people engineers the engineering society, then everyone be happy and you your to have any suffering or waste. So so listen at that time was used as a broad umbrella. It's not using the term did me. day of necessarily states, socialism just met the idea of a so having societies that scientifically run so you had a huge argument. Their different wings even had it from the beginning, with marks versus baconian, because marks was for

Obviously states socialism, the absolute state running everything, although even with marks and angles. It was a means an end after man is remade in his very sure than the state withers away in everyone's equal in, and you have this kind of heaven on earth situation, but coonan, you know was the opposite. He regarded the state as inherently immoral and wanted to have kind of like workers, collectives and things like that and ultra localised trawl. So the end was always stateless. It's just that some people are viewed the state as a convenient effective intermediate say. I think it will at least marks and also in their plenty of others who, just regarded, it you'll have the work have state owners have the workers can control the production via the state, by the way. How does my hat look? Phyllis great festival, is this a bird in the us- and I think you want on this site, so people can see you are none. I want like. When you have left,

hair hair? It's called Veronica lake, I think, was her name and then I just glance flirtatious towards the camera. Sometimes I get a statement sure I'll have no glove and they'll love the bad, the bad aspect, a white gloves, is The bloodstains them shift to get new ones are retained. and now I glance flirtatious. After this they said. Okay, bakunin and marx go ahead, so there were there were there are others socialists who did not regard this kind and times where the state withdrew the way at all. In there you know very straight between where you know, you'd have some capitalism and some socialism ass. You know that the concept of a safety net came out of sight. I was thinking of the labour party came out. There

been socialists in great Britain there, their logo was a wolf in sheep's clothing and then without was who on the nose, they changed it to a tortoise, meaning we're gonna get to socialism slowly in the sense of either gradualism were boiling a frog and also that the big part of this thinking at the time. This is again the late nineteenth century. is the idea that there's gonna be a worldwide workers, revel Should it wasn't going to be that you don't want tree you know, he's gonna happen and then all the other countries to capitalist. The idea was right The workers in germany have more in common with the workers in america than the work in germany have with the capitalist in germany. So the ideas are right. Look through the working class. all over the world are one point: they're gonna be like we're being exploited, getting worse and worse. For us, we can feed our families Getting injured so and so forth, and there's no compensation for this, we're just gonna we're through our chains ever gonna run everything ourselves with one's running it already anyway, and you know that this was their doing all the work

we're doing all the work, so why we a? Why should we be getting all the benefit? What's the role of violence and all this. So this was a big source of contention, so the fabian's sampled, britain, who all socialist they were very heavily of the idea that can do this through the ballot box weaken advocate in magistrate and get the people to be voting. For their own self interest and furthering the state at the expense of the capitalist class. Then there were the people, Were the hard core anarchists who were like if having changed anything they wouldn't. Let us do it and the only way to have a revolution is to have a revolution to kill to overcome oh to seize these factories, and this was a big argument, and it also that into the idea of where it is free speech end

is it legal to be giving speeches advocating for violence and revolution is illegal, johan. Most. You know who I discuss in the book in the attic and book he published a book the eighteen, hundreds about how to build dynamite and how to build bombs. And this is a big free speech, concern time because now anyone in their own house can me a bomb and kill lots of people, and this is something That was happening within normal, frequency at the time that people tend to think you know, because we have this kind of prejudices. or will he remember, what's happening now, but this was a. I mean world war. Two you broke, one got started with the assassination of arctic fronts. Ferdinand there were lots of people mckinley. Another one who are discussing the his assassination there, Lots of violence happening very regularly. The creation of dynamite. It kind of exponentially became more dangerous than threatening even now, dumb on wall street, there was a bomb that went off. I think in the nineteen twenties and the sharks

wrap in all are still in the jp morgan building, I believe, do think if you were alive during that time what you would be doing, you think of yourself as an anarchist. Would you Where would you be? Would you be a socialist communist? Which parties would you attend? figuratively and everything that was so interesting back then, is there was a woman named maple dodge lou hand, and she ended her days in house new mexico. She found an artist colony and she had apartment on night after night, streton fifth avenue in manhattan, a shuttle salon and everyone got together and talking. You have em a golden whose inasmuch ass, Margaret sanger, who invented plan parenthood and advocated for birth control and you'd, have the people from the wobbly the hard core labour unions and everyone conduct at shall mencken with didn't attend, but he was friends with them all. So there was this very weird with them. the modernism in art in any kind of modernist thinking there

Was this idea like all right like this? Was the first time where you could be an intellectual ass, a class where there really was the space for peace? we're thinkers and they just sat around being like alright, like what are we going to do with ourselves? You know it and you had it in modern art. You had it in sure you had it in politics So it was a very exciting time where people, like right, like everything is now on the table. What are we gonna do with this? they very much were aware that this was a break with the you know, the pre just revolution kind of farmer labour error: do you see? Think for you, violence would be compelling now. First arms, too small. The second I just dynamite doesn't care about your size. Yet I mean retribution does, and I think I don't know, but to me, violence is the kind of thing where you think you're running it, but it's running you. Once you, you know, crossed that line

Violence things its own song so when right here. Even contemporary tat people are advocating for you. No violent actions is like when you see fire you're not like I'm. Just gonna burn down this house. You know it's it's it's many cases over and over a people who are building bombs. trying to assassinate someone or or things like that, and it ended up literally literally literally blowing up in their own face, so and violence, doesn't really work necessarily because if you have an assassination you're, not assassinating the presidency. You know, if you take out, you know a precedent, there's another president instantly there. So what are we accomplish? Someone's husband? he's gone, you replace them with. Someone who now is in a position to crack down retaliate with even more violence. So it is it's it that the calculus for me there would I be advocating for then, who knows but I mean I don't know if I d be above the space to be,

I certainly wouldn't have the space to be a pod, castor or like a meter, personality that wasn't really a thing mix than it was in the nineteen twenties with the algonquin table and all the people from the new yorker magazine, but they were all drunks No, it was very much a a weird Kind of situation to be a thinker where would you like you, do look at a carnival, you're, good and lipstick? So thank you. Look at it Think what would I don't know I mean a building robots. I mean you could even a tesla right. Ok, I don't need a car and that the poorest Like I understand. I thank you for explaining the woody comments to the idea that I believe at all costs. You injun einstein cause you're. Never he was an emigrant asylum. working with a name. Look at what does that even mean? No, he was even a test, the like figure. There is already a tesla's, he would literally be tesla, so I set a tesla, oh our tesla, okay. So right, I thank you for the explanation. See. My market doesn't only make funny things. He also explains in free. I wasn't fund.

And displays them. It wasn't funny at all that I agree with okay. So yes, when, when you This is why I need it like you, it's this right. grading from a nine down to downturn it if you keep talking like this a five as a real possible. I saw a vacuum, is the kind of agnes greeted with violences is usually ah phil. It was like a with a harsh with a harsher figure, so you don't think violent revolution, ultimately still positive progress, positive Thus, in the short term, was sometimes it does. The american revolution, I think, was a positive example and overthrowing the tsar which was then peacefully was a positive example. But again, when violence happens, people get sky and they want the violent stopped immediately and that's a call for authoritarianism, and you see it

I'm in time again and and they also want retribution- they are like bring this back to normal You don't really worry about things like civil liberties or things like that. It's it's a very and then also creates this space. Invasion from foreign sources? or demagogues you know like I'll, look, they're, killing us streets. Now you gotta support me. It's it's a very deadly game Obviously I remember somebody told me that I forget. Where was but did they told me that from the outset Beginning was obviously communism is an evil system that would do system that leads to evil and to me at least. That's not if I had to put put myself of the twentieth century at the end of the nineteenth century. The stalling obvious. They are trying to. They humanity, the the basic worth. the human being of a hard work. You are being of the working class of people there doing the work and striving, and just really try to

build up society with their own hands. It seems like a beautiful ideal, so I guess the question is: can you see self, believing that in the ideas of socialism, communism, the safe you were living in russia, I tell ya easily First of all, I think anything is obvious and politics, it's not obvious that you know humans have rights is not obvious that liberties, better or the markets either either, for you, know a welfare state or you for more free markets, not those is obvious, what's the depth involve enormous amount of thought and background for me and so when someone says something is obvious in politics, they really mean something is apparent. Well, it's not apparent on its face that if we all get sick there and promote a society based on equality, and we all chip in that it Skinner really be good for everyone. I mean that to me is the promise of cognitive

and it was also very appealing to many people because it was new. So the idea was all right. We ve tried it other ways. There's all these negative consequences. You have all these slums, you have people getting. You know fired, and then they have no recourse. You have women with ten kids. They can't be there aids, infant mortality of don't have sanitation. You dont have food you know everyone's illiterate and educated education. Then here saying look if we all share. Together, everyone will have clothes, everyone have food ever will be educated. Everyone will do their part. It's going to be rough in the short term period. That's a very compelling case to be made for communism. It's really easy in many ways when something has been tried to make it sound compelling, because you just talk about how great in a b and then no one in no one,

people always argue that, like venezuelan sweden, like oh, we hear you want democratic socialism to be like Sweden, you dont want to events as well. Venezuela, the venezuelans then vote for Venezuela. They voted for sweden. They ended up with venezuela. So it's, I think thing with communism, especially at that era. It was very much a correlated with people who too smart for their own good because they had the idea that, if we are just put in charge instead of these, like business were people or these heirs to great estates. If the people horse and get it like us. I mean you and me that two people, the time were per advocating for it once in charge since we're good people and we want what's best for everyone. We make sure everyone's taken care of, and do you know they always talked about how much they cared about the little guy and some sure some the meant that a lot- and I look if the guy in charge is very much concerned at the little guy.

not so much in the cracks and is just going to be absolutely great, don't have to worry about. You know: you're the capitalist class, just basically except people and having these huge states, while these people can't even feed their families, We have a little bit of momentum. Can you still man the case for socialism at that time? And even today I don't know if it's I dont know if there's a rhyme and similarity to those to socialism is implemented at that time, in what could possibly be implemented day but may be condemned opportunity. The steel men are your for socialism is, if have everything up to private industry. You do not have a guarantee that someone will fall between the cracks? and the other concern is in any other country, if someone is let supposed mentally ill right through no fault of their own. And they are or someone's handicapped you. They can't feed themselves

lives or mentally disabled. Something like that, if you have everything up the charity- some if, as you see this with an endangered species right the species that are key it's easy to raise money for them, protect them some weird kind of frogs somewhere. That known cares about. You can't raise money for these people's interests are, to what they find interesting. So if someone is some six, not socially appealing in some way, whatever capacity they're gonna fall between the cracks and their scope under socialism? If you have a government taking care of everything, no one is left behind. You are guaranteed that the law is the law and the worst the worst, are still going to make sure that their not starving the street or just left behind. So that is a big moral case to be made for having the state

running everything in terms of economics. It's a lot harder, but the argument there would be it's why it's it's not fair, a term which, in my view, does not actually have a good meaning, but it's not fair that because you were born a rockefeller and I was born in Poland that you never have to worry about food, the rest of your life, whereas I I have to worry about. You know paying for a doctor for my kid, like you just you what you won this lottery when you're born and now I have to be screwed and have to respect all your property. Why? So That is another strong argument to be made for socialism, and the other argument is, if you have a name, media apparatus that is operated under profit, seeking principles. It is going to feed into people's worst. qualities most basic animal like qualities and sensational qualities and will be.

As a mechanism for capitalist control, whereas if the government, which represents all of us all of us, is running things Then everyone will have a right to have their was heard and won't be manipulated. That's the argument! What about the reaching towards the stateless version for a visa- because you see also ideas of anarchism it has the same conclusion, which is reaching towards the removal of the state to work, I guess, have some distribute reallocation of resources that are fair weather thing? Is the the marxist vision of the state withering away and becoming anarchism. It's real kind of like I'm, the underpants nomes, because its legs tell me more about step, one you have marks on slowly answer you have, full communism. The states running everything, including education, step to question marks, have three anarchism, so

Their idea was that, after enough time nature of man himself was going to change changed then the government would be superfluous because we would all be equal. and we would all naturally or socially ever term. They would use want to act. The part that we would need to do any fact- reagan had a great joke about this weather to get aware. There were two commissar I think in moscow and what their walk around the going? Is this? It is this for Have we done it? Have we reach for communism? That goes? Oh, is going to get a hell of a lot worse. So you know that's kind of the the counter argument to that. Do you think? culture. Society can change the nature of man. No, no matter. Don't think this idea that, for example, america has been founded on at all, men are created equal, that that idea can permit

the culture and in thereby change how we see each other. Are we. Think of the basic worth of a human being that average age our nature does not change and its epigenetic otto. I dont think then that changes nature of man. I think, for example, if I say someone at which I agree with that, someone is innocent until proven guilty. There Literally innocent there, regarding the legal context as innocent, but that person is or is not a murderer thief or so on and so forth. So we can legally and ethically regard. Everyone is equal, but its thomas I pointed out a human being isn't even equal himself over the course of a day. Twins where genetic clones are not equal to one another, so It is a simple. Thing legally and it's a good yardstick, but it's not literally true. But don't you think that law becomes ethics, so we we that, like the justice starts to like researching. Was it there were just the way

behave the way we think about the well. No, I think it's a complete red herring because no no you're right, herring, ok see. I think that there is a doctor because Someone is people are still going to always prefer their family to strangers or their in group to our group. Seldom firms, if you can have equality. That means it's gonna, not matter to you whether someone is your mom, where some Is he here someone down the street and I don't see how that will ever become the case? Didn't you, it would be possible if you were an intellectual I, like you, are at the beginning of the twentieth century. Would you be able to predict the rest of the twentieth century now I dont think at all. I think there were so many of no returns that no one I have seen their them coming fridge and is the example lenin using power and making the book

rick revolution, a reality regarded as utopian an insane. The fact that he pulled it off is the miraculous, and it was quite literally unprecedented. The fact that so that's a very big one, which aspects of a sorry to interrupt which It was hard to predict that a singular figure would just some ideas would be able to take so much power than an maintain their power and remake that society so drastically so quickly, despite such opposition, also not just a set of temporary protests. By hooligans that lead to turmoil in the short term, but then stabilizes, but literally changed the entirety of the society, including door foods. The german general he's like a right. We gotta get this. The russians out, a world where one he's the one like all right. Let's get this lunatic lenin, who are re, trout, tried and failed to have a revenue in russia. Let's send him there and he's just gonna cost price,

What's everybody and it's going to be great cause, it's going to weaken russia and then our eastern front isn't going have to be a problem and to his surprise, and everyone else is in living in our anarchists income. worldwide they pulled off this in October revolution and then for a while That's I mean I mean, I think my understanding is even people the time in saint petersburg and in moscow were like we were This even mean right like no one took it seriously and then very quickly. You had the checker and, and the police and all these other kind of the limitations of the gale many state and people like. Oh there, now sing around with their like right. This is he's not gonna last four for long and you know the usa, the: u s and day we even recognize the soviet union's legitimacy for a very long time. There, no diplomatic relations at a certain point, it's like who is ready for it don't recognize lenin and installing government, who is the government of the russia of the soviet union, is it the tsar like you have to recognise that it's just

they're, not going anywhere soda. It was something that was not, I think, very predictable the great depression in retrospect there were certain things that were pretty. People, but it was not at all the case that are needed to last as long as it did in the states as empty are made. It do so. all sorts of things I mean if day, fought german ray militarization near world, were ruled what you could have been prevented. If you don't have the treaty of a sigh, would you have the hype and flee Would you have hitler? These are I think she's an adventure moments were things could again or other directions. I don't I don't, but I don't believe this kind of idea. This very marxist idea that, like history is inevitable, and once you start with premises, the contradictions kind of unfold. I think it's ridiculous. I feel there's power in this. The clause outfit yeah, I mean it's a fundamentally communist idea. Right has santa claus arbitrary region,

additional wealth is our redistribution. Well, at least I decide who is good and bad. only I only I know this I mean I am somehow getting funding from somewhere right now, I'll get added, listen I have so much to teach. You never were little Michael workshop yet and how many people you think are employed in this work, their slaves yes I don't know how many jobs in the workshop, I think there s a you're gonna have to look into now you in, colours, and everything is that the biggest holiday of all time christmas, like just in terms of the inn hence of the festivities. No, I think Christmas is a very recent phenomenon I think is Normally it was not a big deal. I know a historic has not been, but in terms of how much captive aids how intense it is. I guess from a capitals perspective like

how much is going on how visual it is? How intensity, I think I'll grabs a whole population, think it's because the idea of christmas is tied, the what most powerful holiday ideas, eastern probably up there. That is obviously of their cause. You have Christ resurrect requests dying his resurrection, so that's gonna, big one, but but Where is the symbol of brotherhood and kindness and magnanimity, you know one of the, They despise about our culture, is this glory and something or fighting very heavily with this book, or at least attempting to is this? Education is cynicism. This kind of, like oh, like the song, that's cute stupid whereas christmas is the one time of year where you could be happy and joyous and kind and people don't get through other eyes at you. They get to stop being too cool for school and they get to be like. I enjoy your friendship, you're you're, my sister my brother, my dad, my mom whatever, and

the inner? I was. I ran favour holiday. I adore it such a christmas in new york and just this idea of, like even there were called and its dark outside. You know it's still this kind of like a cozy and you and the next. Let's hope. The next year is because, with with with russians, a generous santa comes on new years, so it's kind of like, let's make this next year, an even better one. So it's very much the holiday of hope and joy and like love family for friendship and kindness and benevolence yeah and, like almost the whole all rat race of chasing you're possessions and all that is put on hold for beef moment is august. Why what it's all about, giving people material possessions that year, like I value you, this is a good thing and brings you joy, yeah yeah, you right in the book which, by the way, people should go get by right now, if you support this podcast or if you support their dick s office, the michael's were where's them

books, you by the more outfits, he's gonna where they got to my next to appearances. you are assuming I burn this bridge. I've got some good. What is bridge as for a long time what we ve been going to customers but can canoe at this point next time, swimming. another. How are you certain you're right that a lead to sink to the bottom, get dragged across by rope? Ok, you right in the book, The next like to lying, call themselves realists hoping for a positive outcomes. Can this be smith as being naive or utopian elaborate on this point. Just like you said right now I mean it. It seems like a I dunno if it's a fundamental characteristic of our society today or just societies throughout history, but there is a cynicism. You right in the soviet union was really

the deep cynicism without good at the india and But there is the cynicism today as well, though at least in like public discourse. Yes, why does it happen? And how can we fight it? And I think it is easy to be everything sucks you know I had if, but my friend lux she was a of logs If she is an author, she had this great line cause. You know we worked in media and she's like if you're at a party and some starts talking about a new, app or website, and you don't know anything about it just say enough for a while exact. That's all you did it legs as a great line, but I think it is especially I'm sure you had to experiences as well with your family. I certainly do with mine. There is this the especially in russian culture, but an american culture to some extent as well, where if you have asked permit aspirations, I

Where there is the so called russian dolls, it was oh, I just got it like the matuschka. Ok, I just got it. That's the name the show is called russian dolls. It was about brightened beach, which is the russian jewish neighborhood in brooklyn. It was to their version of jersey shore, it was an lifetime and it had no ratings, and I remember the last four episodes they had to burn them. So this ran it through, like eight, am to ten am one day and they were. this one scene where the when the girl, every at her name praying natalia and she'd, been in college and she had been won which one to major in right- and this story was so perfect. I'm sure have told it before and she took an aptitude test. and she went with her mom to get like many parties or something mom. You know I've had like eighty majors, I didn't know what I want to do and she was. I took this out to test. It really make sense to me I am going to go to law school. I want to be a lawyer and it's something I enjoy, and the first thing out of her mom's mouth is how you can pay for it and the girl.

And I really related cause. If you didn't have this russian upbringing, you watched it, you would think her reaction was completely insane. She lost it. Just screaming she's, like people pay for law school over time figure out a way. Why is your first reaction to look for a problem wise? Your first responds to be like Oh, are you sure you ve got this through? I have been struggling with one problem for years. What I wanted to do for, and now like as soon as I solve this one big problem by identity. Your first reaction is like, let's find a new problem why's that europe, instead of let's figure out how we're gonna pay for it and that kind of approach is so deadly and it ignores that you- and I always I dont like giving people, vice because who the hell am I and also ossified another context of the problem, not informed enough to give advice, but this is piece of advice that difficult for giving if You are someone who has around you, people who I see

as you have any accomplishment or any hope that their first reaction is but what about this you have to get rid of them or sit them down, may be given a chance, because that is something that is set so demoralising an age range. You- and it's like you, know the example. I use all the time all the time. All the time I say. If you want to be an author right, you can go to any bookstore and look at all this shitty shitty books like the white pill. and you could save yourself- I could be the shitty author. Not to be having way so people should buy your book just now. It doesn't take much. We really does not take much shitty. Writing is all about and boring yet You could just pick a random in the period in history and just write a bunch of crap about it and put a pretty stamp on the cover and just go. It was pretty yeah. Now let me lick lick lick for you

right, like not you do that when you left stories by the wolves should the route with wolf bots, there's lots of stand up comedians, who aren't jerry seinfeld right if you want to be hot custard, you dont, have to be sure rogan, you could be someone, who's got a medium audience and earn going it. So like the idea that, like something has to be, you have to be a massive superstar or your failure is also ridiculous. Without cynicism I mean you can even- A fail comedian like day smith on this generic name. I came up with as an example. I think he has a package, some kind of like him very funny. I know why you would call himself comedian, but duties being ironic, don't you think yeah. So, even given the huge some things, but I remember what he did with the limit. The iter was that I dont is, are you could you can you explain the jokes cause? I kill medics lighting, jokes, I'm wearing lipstick.

had it not now I remember you did to me in a movie theater and you were that night to not what I was done. People for sure will think this. This feels like a gay porn, like my very long intervals, rita pants. Yes, this The reasons why this feels like this and the outfits, and just everything about this how would you know? I, my friend, I have stories, thought you'd, better, have friends, they're, all suspiciously named either Alexa lux as the various like you lack lee creativity, like in the right now you are locks, disagreed You didn't even use like us. The source for your birthday words over and over and over. the sad thing about the cynicism, is like? I don't think it's just a russian thing. I think that the people of the night, let me

because I d fish, what you're saying earlier in america, it's not just to russian thing in american culture. If you have like a sit com or a musical its regard as less legitimate, then a drama right like if something's gonna be less than was struggling or someone suffering, whereas this is like a joyous, happy story, like maybe sublimate pixar right like sure they have conflict in their going for something, but it's over all the background the universe is taking in is very Joyce and happy. That is regarded artistically as less legitimate than something which is dark and in the background is despair and very suddenly sends a very to me it is a message that the you know that what's real, is despair and happiness. aberration, and I think, if you have that as your mindset, you're setting yourself up for maybe

failure, but certainly not happiness yet boots that that's in the figures, the ideas that the culture elevates, but at the local personal life of parents and teachers. That still happens a lot in russia in here just my whole life, because I'm a weirdo I've been kind of toll basically Less weird b. There's a kind of and were there's a certain passes was taken life every time you have a little bit of success on those very specifically defined pass. your pushed to do more and more more those pass, as opposed to celebrating the full complexity of the weirdo that each one of us is- and I certainly am adjusts teachers even friends And certainly family have caused You ve been very

cynical about my aspirations, my dreams and so on, I think that actually create a deeply self critical engine in my brain that ultimately was productive because it was also balance by just in internal maybe through genetics thing. I have of optimism about the world of just seeing the beauty in the world where it is we, looking back how much the how much people there love me we're trying to bring me down Yes, so strange, it is also very hurtful for me because when I graduate college, it was important for me to be self made and not take money from my we- and I remember my grandma. This was a huge argument, an ongoing argument and time sheet. You know, as we will relieve actually by how she slipped money in bonn the door, and I threw it out, and it may be so angry,

like one year for my birthday? She gave me, I think, like five hundred dollars, which was a lot of money. You know when you're, like twenty, two, three and I was so pissed because that told me that they didn't believe that I'd be able to feed myself or make it on my own and I understand their their mindset. But it's like I'm not listen. You know I never was ever hungry, like maybe I couldn't I remember I have to wait on the subway cause. I can afford a cab said, but that was a sacrifice I too making. With a half hour, or so it was a huge source and remains a source of enormous tension and contention, and I think also speaking to your upbringing, their minds unless you're going into an office, you can't pay the rent, it doesn't make sense oh, I bet. There's just like you said, forget them we get all that, no matter what theirs always whatever you accomplish in life. You always do

you're always negative about your current position. Yours come up with another problem. Just like you said, I would also add, is a self generating problem box. yeah. I remember I didn't speak to my dad for few years. Then let me give the sky another chance, and in that I'm period, harvey p car the author of a subject of millions. Under the movie an author, this year's comic books. He and I became friends and he was writing a graphic novel about me and when I met with my dad, unlike o summers, a book about me, he goes, I know so and it was one of those moments were, unlike while you're an asshole and not the cause. asshole. I am yours like not a good person, and I dont know or really at this point care what the nor deviation or if there was no motivation with the visceral emotion reasoning for that, but that kind of thing something I you know

much later now in life, have absolutely no tolerance for am I in my own private life forgiven love those people, but it is they been a few in my life like this and I think there they are incredible. People realize ought to see it but their flawed, and so I tried to forgive them, That said, it is true that the people there are close to you but she family have a disproportionate psychological effect on yes, yes, you have to be very careful having them in your life too much like one. is to love them and the others actually you know allow yourself to flourish range of people, their hope you flourish and, like you said, the advice. Theirs is really powerful, especially early on to have people there. leaving you in whatever crazy, big dreams. You have their pay and the boy, I can see you got this kid and added value

Here's the other thing. If you try and you don't make it to that rogan level- it's ok like I have, several books, that ever written that are on my hard drive that have not been published and there were a lot of work was really disappointing when they were went out and no publishes were interested in, maybe I'll publish them or they, maybe I won't point being its fine. I try I'd like a romance now. What is achievable, romeo that now has ever santa. in a sense of it. Can you please stop asking me to send you gave pornography He is called me up all hours of the night. I need more gay porn. I need someone I only have zeros yeah. I never know this. One almost got a book deal. This was would have been sixteen years ago was a it was a lad, lit novel. What can a novel lad lit? It's like the corn maze why nick Hornby,

about a boy said there was little many genre of these it's about young men trying to struggle their way through is the whole little there's this hollow seriously by club adjacent to that? It's not literally that led lit and I feel like you would write a great fight club type novel. Now you know fight club's. Much at chuck. Palahniuk is my understanding admitted this fight club is one of the few things where the movie is better than the book. Allen's string, but there the movie so iconic yet for sure, but but still isn't there a deeply like philosophical, it's gonna give it for awhile. now, as isn't. Doesn't it doesnt fight club capture? Some when, in time, very kind. I was hanging out with Kurt metzger a couple weeks ago. Comedian very failed name drop yeah, hey Kurt, watch out and he was he had this great story he was.

Ineos. Patrice in the elderly, comedian aim grew up, they create crate topics of author and fisheries goes. Kurt was thought about how much you like the book or the movie fight club and patrice like that is the widest what on earth he goes your problem with life. Is you don't have enough violence, your rapid life? You need to beat you up, that's not a problem for me, yet what I mean, but still it is a very white book, but it still captures a kind of anger and annexed and subculture, sub culture- yes, that's really powerful, they're, probably lead to in some part. The thing you are right by then you write off where he had heard him. I mean it was this kind of like there's that line in the movie were edward and says I'm a thirty year old boy, this kind of quest- What is it sort of that war but what does it mean to be a man right? What is masculinity mean what're wires, how many men so out of such a young age field, so lost others.

idea that, like you, I feel my house with nice furniture that still not gonna be fulfilling to anyone who met what now ass? He saw the daily. Why he's daylight mary on? What is a woman? Can export He is so that she is someone who works the daily wire? Yes and he just weeks, did a document recalled what is a woman I think was called and he went out to lots of people working in gender theory and know that and he asked them to defy anyone to the maasai in africa, the tribe and to talk to people about trends tourism non binary, which is a word. I know you hate and the doktor, was a surprisingly well done that like passiveaggressive compliment surprisingly? Well done? Well, because Matt is very aggressive on twitter. We follow each other and. There was a lot of opportunities in this film for him to me.

will be like and instead to his credit, he let the people speak and it is possible. Edit a certain way? Of course it was obviously edited, but when he just ask them, can you just defined woman from me in playing dumb we're not playing down to sing? What's your opinion, a lot of the people he was speaking too were getting exe. We agitated, so it worked in that kind of context as well not his usual style. Speaking of which do regret your behaviour in twitter. There were a couple of times, but very rarely. Can you described the big strategy before we die back into the october revolution? Ah, my strategy of a strategy, or is it? Does it come from the heart, or does it come from the brain it comes from? I want to have fun. that's certainly what it comes down to is that this is all just wanna. Have one are you drunk? What is it

what are you? What is in there cheeky I've the holidays spirit, even those that the holidays, let's targeted areas that did not sleep. My last night, a burden, which is, I think, the second time we talk of the third time a second time, I stay up almost all night. Oh, I know I keep track of when you come and go yeah sometimes it or camera points in your garage. I know when you're leaving or coming home my camera points at your bedroom from the inside thirty given hidden irregularly, that now there are. I, let me ask you this disease the bothering me yes, there was a chair. you threw out and an arrogant, and I was Looking at my camera, like livesey, when he threw this out and then in the time you went to the garbage and you adjusted it to make it stick out of the garbage even more. What were you doing? There was a o to to to to make sure that people know the churn there without delay for it I dont, like the garbage persons. They'd knows the chairs of their own get like. I always think I don't want them to

like her. Ok like they open. The thing is, I oh god- I Don'T- I don't know what I was thinking sphere, I didn't know how to get rid of a chair was broken, cracked, an egg didn't it was. It was solved later for me, I my point is to have fun. It's also fun to kind of smell down people who I regard as bad actors, the kind of to promote news that I find interesting. That may be seen as prominently far the culture as it might otherwise be you think. Sometimes you draw to broadly the category of people there, actors and then some thereby sort of adding to the the mockery and cynicism in the world. I don't they green cynicism are at all synonymous I think cynicism means everyone socks, I don't everyone sucks. I think it is down undeniable, that a lot of people suck. What? If I told you most people, though suck, could you could you

could you steal man the case that most people sure I can do it in a cynical way, honestly, exquisite away from there. I think most people are neither here nor there most people just gonna, go with the flow their amiable, human, our social creatures they want to get along. They on a cause problems. They didn't have the capacity to be the target of a problem so most people I mean if people's, if most people sucked Going anywhere would be excruciating ordeal right, like literally and like the airports annoying, but if most people sucked it would really be annoying, you know go in the supermarket, we really annoying. So I I don't think most people suck, but I do think that in public discourse, there are lots of people who are dishonest about their agenda. example. If I'm were you know, I could be a someone. Who's has A certain ideology, but I'm in the paper the candidate

you know, my think tank needs is to happen or of being paper somewhat, some like that. So that sort of thing I think happens, all the time is the line we have in the book. Upton Sinclair, I forgot how he he word exactly. But it's very hard to convince somebody something if his payroll depends at him not being convinced of it right. So I think things like that are the thing I'm really excited about with what you are doing with twitter, and I'm just ecstatic about this is to have the context now. So you'll have a politician making a claim and they're going to word it in certain ways, like my favorite example is when people like, if you look at the years, two thousand and two to two thousand and twenty terrorism in america, like their thing, happened in two thousand one. Is there recent news, just coincidentally started in two thousand and two like things like that. So when people are manipulating things to force an outcome they want and to promote an idea that they want disingenuously They have that underneath that in twitter, now, where the audience provides contacts I think is

something extremely useful and its great waited nip propaganda in the bud and propaganda pervades the entire political spectrum. Of course, this thing about twitters ass. The discussion about three speeches on I think, is interesting. the discuss free speech and the freedom of the press, context of the soviet union shirt returned thirty october revolution and outlining what was the actual revolution What who was lined with some interesting aspects of this this being and also this moment in history. The stand out to you that important understand, I think the resting thing about lenin. Is he was zealot? and he was a visionary. and he really kind of meant it and skipping ahead. Little bit but lenin- also with someone who was strategic. So

certain point when they were trying to advance communism throughout the soviet union and the costs right wing benefits, heat did a strategic retreat heed that did economic policy had a rise of kind of these small capitalist coming back. You could hire people again and for the hard core people in the civilian harker communist. This was a huge betrayal. It's a step back. He didn't do it because he was some kind of crypto capitalist. He did it because he's like a right. We know where we gotta get too, but we have to go at a certain pace and we have to just as we go along so to have someone is that much of an ideal log and that much a visionary but still two halves. Any element of pragmatism to him is, I think, a very rare combination and that price it cism. Do you think? That's ultimately working go wrong. Server. That's where you sacrificed the ideas. Pragmatism in this case was good because by taking a step back, you know he kind of,

I'll gave himself some breathing room too, the revolution to continue to win the civil war. There was a big mom We're germany is is just as less likely fanatic those they learned well researching this book. So you know they were. Germany and russia. They were negotiating us still a ceasefire. Is they wanted, how many rushed out of the war and basis germany was like right. You were you Let you leave, but you have to sign this treaty, basically hand over all this land that were currently occupying it was just party ukraine. Parts of poland and Lenin tells trotzky to stall. He's just run the clock because he was of the leave that now that they ve taken power in russia? You can have by workers revolutions just like just install them any stock. The stalled at a certain point. Germany's like are at your citing this tomorrow, our were invading an trotzky. Basically, Yes, so relieving the war, assigning anything and germans like what the I well that's what we're doing so. He s

Basically it adventure early, he had to sign the treaty and seed huge parts, and a lot of money- and this was a very precarious mon for him- to maintain control of russia. and people were telling him like you, ve lost huge amounts of territory. We, you know you ve blown, you should be in jail and he's like watch your mouth, because if you look for the future, it'll be clean which one of us is more likely to be the one ending up in jail and he was actually write. This was trust. Lenin said, is right in saying that the carnatic, so who are these figures here, whose trotzky, whose linen who stolen? What are some interesting aspects of all this? Would it so you're just to linger on it. personalities, the ideas that were important well, true, ski came late to bolshevism. He was really the brains in many ways of the october revolution. He was an amazing strategist. He never forgot that he was amazing. I have just had a very high pain of himself and by the way

october illusion that seventeen that's like a key moment of course that the russian I was less than a long time, but the key moments of what the fish shift towards success of the well shakes, but that was the moment that was like. Alright, we are the government now and now we have to make it. You know, like a thomas jefferson said, I think, was thomas jefferson or no has been franklin, a republic if you can keep It's like a right. We ve made our own kind of government if we can keep, because that was the question yet international blockade. Yet the white army the tsars forces who want to restore tsar as and where at least that the parliament from right for lenin took over. So this was a big kind. No one was that you know it in some ways it was like the twenty sixteen election. It's like a right, we vote from what it was this gonna look. I like no one. No one had any. Idea of what a trump presidency was going to look like all. We knew was this guys on twitter running his mouth he's insulting people, and he he's had all these views summer. Over here-

come over there and the funny thing is the russians hacked both election betsy through if it was prudent in the kremlin, so. Trotzky was Lena Lenin's right hand, man and he was you know, enormous and citizen day. He remains this kind of figure who, is how's, it lay a less thought. Terry in anti stalinist, vision of communism that people can endorse. I installed of course, was lenin successor at first. There was the triumvirate running russia, as Lenin, was refrain from strokes, then very quickly, without very quickly julie. Then suddenly Stalin became an absolute dictator and He had a series of of urges and so and so forth, with solidified his control over the country and, of course, for stolen trotzky later, but throughout. As

right seem to almost take on a supernatural character when we think that went wrong in the ussr was do not just to his views, but who is direct orders from abroad and, of course, George Orwell brilliantly, in probably my fear of a book of his wishes animal farm and often that eighty four portray trotzky us a snowball in animal farm in the mail seen in nigeria, for is the embodiment of this evil, though always have to be fighting than you that, in order to hold. Not the power. You always have to have that enemy so the ivy mean that's something talk about in the white paper as well. When, things start going wrong. They always had to have scapegoats right and there is this russian dots. You know with the russians like to do. Is you can't say things out loud? But if you make jokes, you can say unspeakable truths,

and there's this one any doth where this russian leader and things are going bad and he looks in his drew a drawer and there were two letters from his predecessor, And he opens the first letter in a panic in the letter says: unified vice and letter says blame everything on me, so he goes out and he's like all my predecessors, saki was terrible. Wildlife is more than one zero k and then the calamity again and he's like a crack so goes back at his desk. Is the second one and it says, sit down a right to letters so that when things start going wrong as they costly did throughout the history of the soviet union. Our any you know totalitarian authoritarian country it, some one has to be. lame, since we know that ideology is true and scientifically true if it's not working in reality, given the perfection of the eye algae someone must be intentionally combining it and causing the disconnect between

in reality and in the soviet union there were think it was the kulaks at one point, then it was the wreckers or the doctors. It was just different. The cap there was always so much and trotsky was called. A fascist, then was accused of plotting with hitler, and all the other stuff- and you also write the problem with communism, is it eventually, you run out of possible escape both scapegoats scapegoats? He ran a boats, above is who's gonna. Carry them then she ran out apostles gig cuts. This is my second language. This, the english thing failed PA gesture failure, eventually run out apostle scapegoats for failure, at which point acknowledging or even noticing that something was wrong itself becomes a form of torture. yeah. So I saw that north korea right where Were you went in north korea? Something was wrong, so if you have four by

for the elevator one. We mismatched every wall had a crack. Every nor had a stain. The bathroom would be rusted through it. but the flush the urinal. But if you as someone who points this out your troublemaker- and you are your credit, I say something's wrong, you're criticizing the the operation you create your first of all, you are you're, threatening the person who is in charge because now they're, incompetent and now that's a big red flag for them Second, if you're just going around saying this, is, on. This is wrong. This is wrong, even if its objectively, true your troublemaker, your count loosened, set a certain point. Everyone has to on blinders and pretend that ever is fine. At one example using the book and extreme example was, there was a photography professor and he pointed out, is key: ass. He was an older man that for the revolution, the quality of its photographic paper was better and he was I think, executed for this house. say so yeah. You have to pretend there is just one. Reading a book right now, but the chinese cultural revolution

there was an academic. I forget his name, you, she, I think any points out that in these countries Not only do not have freedom of speech, you have freedom of silence, you can't just there quietly. You have to say how great things are and how much you enjoy and how wonderful they are, instead of just keeping quiet as if keep quiet that suspicious at those There were singing those songs about how happy they are and how great everything is, and if everyone else's Who are you to sit, not sing. yeah? Those pictures especially went up when it's stalling giving speeches in our is applauding rainy. dictator and he d? You know, would be the first person that stops applauding Stalin had ever buy, is my understanding at a certain point to tell people stop applauding cause there. I, like you, said if you're the first one to stop clapping people going to notice, and while you stop clapping you're like Stalin, but just imagine being one of those people clapping, but that's the thing they

They always have soared over their head in there, but they all had a lot of blood on their hands to its it's it's it's it's a very, very precarious life, but there is also. I mean ninety four does a good job of this. What is that like two minutes of hate or something? as you like, lose yourself in them and in the end story of it in those that there's some level of which at first it's you sacrificed your basic individualistic ability to think. But then you lost in this way of emotion and you give into it, you elisa a mix of fear and an aim. any direct that anger top towards no ball or trotzky or whoever the unlike, What is that you also losing herself in the crowd? Yeah you're, losing your like ass? Not just I'm angry everyone. I know we're all angry together, so you really are becoming a part of something bigger than yourself and having this kind of thing You know very prime all

national experience, it's like the opposite of thanks of christmas right. Christmas were altogether. Everyone's sharing their joy, everyone sharing their love. This is the opposite, literally option like everyone's together sharing their hate and anger and rage, but you're kind of having a mind melt. but I wonder what it's like to be an independent thinker and those in those moments allow yourself to think the wind. We know we is there a lot of them and they were all punished enormously so they can be noticed. You can now it's them. Oh yeah. You've noticed it in a mirror america's free country, but when, when people start asking too many questions, it's like, where were you going with this? You know like if, if you're in an office, even in a in a corporate setting your your troublemaker you're. Just you know you making progress, however, one. Why can be normal. Why can't you just like everybody else, so people do not like having to be made. think and they certainly despise

They need to be made to justify themselves because that's a threat to their status into their power, and this lies in totalitarian, isn't europe applies to you, know, dunder, Michelin,. I still can't believe you weren't lipstick. Can that goes to show you can pull lipstick gonna pick us no more. I think you just been on a bender that is been is we're off, as were rough. I feel kind I feel like I can be myself in this outfit. I also feel like you just go around and resulted in them just be weird because everyone will accept you, you wearing a santa of it, like you

same thing in the center of the right. Have you seen bad zanna yet Abraham? Let it actually less anything. My flock stick. How does stolen come to power if we return back to those early days, post october revolution, lenin, Trotzky and stolen, how did he come to power so what's when did very cleverly Stalin was you know he worked system. He was you know but he was very much in the background and what he did better than trotzky ass. He was much more a politician he was glad hander. He made friends, then the party he made people feel respect and appreciated, lenin trusted him, after lenin, stroke, Stalin was basically the one who was keeping track, aims to lead and asked Stalin at one point: four: to kill him because, after the strokes, using capacity to stolen talked him out of it, but at the same time when was like the, if I need someone killed like this is who I need to

How do you know stolen if you look of photos and when he was young, he was started. He was a gangster. Is a bank robber and you know he base we work the system and you had the trotzky ice in one hand, who were once more to the left Stalin's big I guess I'll call it a heresy. Was he put forth the aid. Of socialism in one country, whereas the like we're just gonna, make it here in what became the soviet union trotzky idea- and this is really kind of the marxist idea- is that the workers evolutionary worldwide. This is just a worldwide kind of new air of humanity. where stalls like none of us can make it here and then later behind what became the iron curtain, but this was, sure this was an ideological division between the two, but what happens in totalitarian country you happens in any kind of like you know, when you have enormous intermingling of like religion and government, things that are like ideology, ideological disputes,

like the arian heresy, the art heresy, christianity, is that Christ is subordinate to god. The father right was an the contemporary orthodox version. It's three gods, one god and three. Excuse me, sir they're all co, equal aspects of garden, Heaven, but that way as an excuse to be like you guys? Are evil you're on their side, the devil are going to kill you. So these little disputes about ideas are often a convenient cover, or people to have a power struggle in the guise of being like It's not that I'm about wanting to be more powerful, I'm just on the side, the truth and you're speaking lies and that's dangerous to the revolution or to the true faith. So he squeezed trot, but the thing is trotsky had the seeds of his own defeat, because pr,

brodsky. The party is always right. You cannot be right against the party right. So if you have this kind of party structure and the party is saying you are wrong as an individual, you are wrong because the collective is what makes decisions the collective the workers are, who have the knowledge and and the information, and it is important for you to kind of subordinate your selfishness, your individualism to this greater good. So he kind of set himself up in many ways is it clear to you why Trotzky lost that power struggle see you just explain that he set himself up where you can see how different ideologies can be used to teach you different ends. is there. Another alternative possible trajectory were trotzky could have been at the head of the soviet union it would be very hard because he was jewish. So

when they were seizing power, Trotzky explicitly said I can't be in charge of jewish. So the soviet remained extremely anti semitic, one the reason, so many jews became communists in the soviet union because the promise was once the communist took over we're, not gonna programmes anymore, for so you're these jewish ghettos and under the permission or encouragement of the bizarre just gangs of people go through killing ray. Being robbing stealing riding for days and just logistically massacre of the earth. It was like, under communism, everyone's going to be equal, we're not going to have this anymore; they still had it but to a lesser extent, but since trotsky was jewish, his real name is lev bronstein, you can't you, it was almost impossible to have a scenario where he was going to be in charge and Stalin fed into that to some extent. Also, this kind of the of jewish internationalism. It's like. Ok, he doesn't really have

due to russia and many of the people who were jewish, who were high up in Stalin's government administration, in the very much had to prove their loyalty, communism as opposed to judaism. Throughout the twins. And she was relationship between communism? the Jews in the soviet union that, what's in terms of anti semitism, the ups and downs of anti semitism seems like it lessened it was lesser and greater in different parts of the twentieth century. Well it If the kind of thing where, if something was bad, there's this russian rhyme, you like using the word of god echo your videos to deal like. If there's this there's no water in the saint who drank it all the Jews. Sir. if something goes wrong, there's there's just a convenient historical scapegoat. It's this deduce vault saleable this.

Something, that's towards the end of his life very much- and this was after world war- two Stalin was Getting ready for another kind of series of pogroms there are: all these Jews were getting kicked out of their jobs. A jewish doctors were getting sent to the far east instead of being in cities. Ah, the newspapers started talking about cosmopolitan rootless cosmopolitans, which was a the nazis, also used to kind of regard jews, as others are as aliens and this was going to- and ass. They were very clever about it. I am prompted they would, and I talk about this in the white built in prompted their articles, edit the letters to the editor there were, like you know, things are getting so anti semitic. We really should round up all the jews and send them elsewhere for their own safety, so they were kind of setting the the ground rules or the or the basis. Have this sort of programme come back, but spoiler and stalin- dies and immediately all this guy

Worse than the new administration does rehabilitates, the doctors were accused. trying to hurt him and all this at a sore thing. What is it about the scapegoat in society? Are we always going to be looking for escape Would he learned from human nature that this seems to keep happening. I think big others. A book called the nurture assumption. And I discussed this in the new right and what the author learned is that humans define themselves by opposition. So if you have a group of people and its kids in adults, the kids will see themselves as kids were as opposed to adults if the adults leave the kid see themselves as boys and girls, because I'm not a girl, the boy, I'm not a boy and a girl, so they divide. So this idea, which is very left the idea,

that human beings naturally all get along is not accurate and the best example of this is look after nine eleven look where there's a war, nothing unites a popular. It's not like when times are thriving that everyone's all working together. When things are bad and there's an enemy, you know it's, the japanese are pearl, harbor, its Al Qaeda. That's whenever one really, comes together because now we have someone to be against, so there will always be some one has to be the outgroup and we have to be the in group as opposed to them, but there's a viciousness to the actions you take to the ah towards the out group that the various throughout his yes, some like the degree vicious, can cross the line towards it. Look a city stores, genocide right and thus that the question of who in why does it sometimes do that? Why does it sometimes cross into genocide? I understand it's a useful thing to have the other to blame,

this world, especially as a rough but It is thus entirely liters of action that says I'm going to murder. Well, I'm going to torture. You ve I should really is why sometimes it doesn't right and one of them things, I learned when I was doing the new right. Is a lot of the nazis using the term loosely speaking you nazis. They make the point that, like oh, The holocaust happened. It really was not big of a deal and then only became a big deal decades later, and this just shows the power of jewish louis- and unlike this to me, is a great thing. It's a great thing that we sat down. Pretty recently, historically and we're wait a minute guys. When we have a war or we have conquest, you don't have to just start killing. Everyone like this thing that's bad and wrong, then, certainly last six years seventy years. This is something that people have come to take for granted, but that wasn't it

before it would always be, or not always, but often, if you conquer, aegis go wild and just start slaughtering masses of people and it's a who's, the guy from harvard and heat that even pink Steven pinker. I'm sorry, I forgot his name, so he just talks about life You know we know. Can this is one the results so why there was so much scepticism when the holocaust started, because this is required as something that was barbaric. This is from the meat middle ages from the biblical times Do this anywhere were civilized now so genocide, It is historically the norm. I think it's also hearted it off emotionally. When you have the visuals When you have the audio and when you have them says of the people being slaughtered, we don't know you know if this was two thousand years ago and and people you know in the bible, they'd go, kill us our group will have their names would have the visuals. We have anything, but when you see some

and being like. You know that there is a book about, I think, the rwandan genocide and the title is Regret to inform you that tomorrow we will execute with all of our family sick, a telegram and like you, when you get a telegram like this, it's very different than readings of his book about the er, the Assyrians kill the phoenicians. It's like I dunno who this is. I don't know who that is right, so I think this is something that has changed very recently. There was this kind of interesting moment. Just that speaks to the way technology has liberated people from VI whence kristallnacht, which was a moment in the lead up to the holocaust, were basically you know with hitler split, thing you had a nationwide burning of jewish businesses, synagogues burnt down an keyser wilhelm, you, the kaiser. He said for the first time my life embarrassed vision. But that was a moment were worldwide, even plenty of people who did not think very

the jewish people, were like this is the wrap. This is complete nightmare but two hundred years ago, honey years ago, maybe not literally kristallnacht, but it is in our group and we hate them and we're gonna kill him in its fine. Anything is even more difficult now with the internet. Yes, the kind of not doubt more difficult as me doesn't happen where it can happen. I'm not saying that at all, but I'm sorry in the we know a lot about? What's going on in north korea? You know probably the most secretive country on earth there's a lot of atrocities, eritrea, which is kind of known, so I think it also it's also, like, if you think about it, if you're how many years ago, three hundred years ago, you only know the people in your village and they're all probably going to look like you so on and so forth. Whereas now If I'm on social media, there's someone from any country- and maybe they're picture, looks different. These the same anime picture somebody else, but they're putting forth their ideas

you do see the human in them and you do see a sense of the familiarity and a familial bond with them. And when you hear about these things, when I again like I do when I did your reader, no one and I was an Al Qaeda and I was an ox jones. No one pushed back about like, though the north koreans. All like this is horrible. Fire had a magic wand, the give them food I wouldn't have them live in fear, and this is something that I dont think was the case. A couple hundred years ago I said I'd love to get your thoughts about. What's going on in iran, the protests it seems like the regime there is able to crack down violence, my thoughts about iran lemme just this something else about IRAN, which thinks interesting. This whole idea of care for what you wish for, because people have site and something I kind of when the reasons I have the white pill is america? really how very naive, but the nature of evil right. They really think that a dictator,

It has a weird mustache and is banging the table and he's you know like a crazy person, and it's often not the case, but they also think if something is bad. Therefore, the alternatives going to be better So you had the shah of IRAN and he was kind of authoritarian no he's, not a good guy. So a ninety. Seventy nine! There are a lot of people like this guy's, a horrible he's, oppressed the uranium people. Let's get him the thought of their he so bad that whatever comes after it is cast to be an improvement, and it's like. No that's. If you think I mean it distresses me crazy. When conservatives are like you, Joe Biden, the worst present ever had like this is destroying american, like you have no idea how bad things can get. The fact that you are in a position to complain,

means. We got a ways to go, get every time. You say the doll tromp or Joe as the worst president ever that that worms my heart, because your book, is you're allowed to say that yes, yeah, it's like I just let it is like music. Has you you're allowed to be pretty in response to your president's tweet, you couldn't write that yeah, and it still lives there in its buddy arrest, you yeah which is a rare thing in human history. S story. Nothing in the world, we will do it, seen that iran, the current regime is able to crack down on communication channels. It still is surprising to me how much power government can have. They could use violence to control the population right and

nobody's gonna, do anything about. It will address the rest of the world just watches, but here's the thing right, because if the rest the world starts doing too much, then they have a justification to crack down even more this regime. This protest or a legitimate these if this happened constantly soviet union, these a form, marketers? This is in your meddling in our country, curfew, locked down, I d knows mandatory searches, everyone's a spy, so that narrative is a very can be won. For people who are authoritarian. I know a lot of you who are persian, as I'm sure you do as well very hard working, very bright, great people, and you know, all you could do- is hope for a peaceful liberalization of because people don't realize how liberal iran used to be Andy warhol, Andy warhol used to be friends with the shock and if he raised his diaries, he talks about how he knew things

when going well for the shaw, because they had less caviar at the table, but like this is, he was a really kind of there's. There's that as for understanding in america and I'm nuts, Why of what these liberal muslim countries are like eyes, gave a talk in boardroom in turkey, which is a resort town in turkey, and I had thought previous to that or I had suspected. If push comes to shove, if that used to people in turkey between the west and like Al Qaeda, not a kind of like you know, hardcore Islam, the country's harcourt, love you go there and you're like out. This is like los angeles, like these people are so liberal so and they are the first to be killed there. The first targets, so that people like that. our who my thoughts are and with the I gotta tell you like. Nothing makes me more of a feminist.

and seeing the women in countries like this fight for the right to education, the right to dress as they are, he's. Maybe we need them driving, but you know that's. Ok there. He is with that characteristic. Brilliant hume the year so loved for I should probably be banned for on twitter. Oh I'm doing my best. Every time you tweet, I just report. My report is that it is it off this man, you don't have a script, fictitious sack! Funny enough. I do, but I don't. I don't abuse my PA. For I wear the ring like photo, and I respect the power. But you look like Alan. it's not your mom said last night. She said your. Like all of us I'm not going down that road with you on that holding hands one another

time. I learn my for me once ok, might my childhood friends from IRAN alaska and I talked to him a lot at. I wanted to go to iran, but it's so far away. I could see it from my house, my friend, and I would love to take that trip. Even It's just the culturally. So all the different little pockets of local culture that make up iran, I just with so many amazing things you have my friend Paul went there. He had an amazing time, a heaps actually loved to that, were awesome, I it was so interesting, very developed. Just like tehran is. I read this history in tehran is insane yeah. I would I would I would rule,

to visit now we returned back. I don't know how we ended up in iran, but let us let us draw back to our stolen taking power. What role did the suppression of speech the censorship, the suppression of the freedom of the press have enough stone, taking hold taking power in lenin in Trotzky, in stolen having power. While it was a very useful mechanism to direct public opinion and inform the public respective than ever, So first of all, there was a lot of news about how great things were. You have about. for crop here you know, grains, never better have theirs is great. Does another anecdotes, where In calling and is talking about how on Karl Marx street in cork there's all sorts of new skyscrapers being

that is just apps looming in some of the audience, gets up and goes comrade. I work on Karl Marx, really walk there every day, there's none of the skyscrapers goes see. That's your problem, you're trusting your eyes. I said it was reading something and learning what's in the papers, so there was this kind of disconnect between you know. I I figure you probably know the joke like prop prop, then you prob, the easiest thing is vsd elect, probably means truth, but there's no truth to be had in properties like on the russian line, The point is it very much and the other thing this is, you know my mom was emphatically politically motivated She talked about how you didn't have to smart to realise how dishonest it was because one day someone is the great here of the soviet people and the next week.

He's been a traitor and a class enemy in the worst, and then sometimes they reverted and it's like. Okay, like they couldn't even keep their, is their story straight and in fact, at a certain point, when they you know gorbachev liberalized, they had to cancel tests because the history books etiquette, be written so quickly so end. The thing that also with these newspapers is there was a lot of. It was very monotonous because you know you had this message over and over the lot of these papers were about kind of speaking to the lowest common. I'm nadir stalin's great everything's great overseas bad. So

it is very much- was about not informing but creating a certain perspective in the public at large and also it knew you were educated as a citizen on what you're supposed to think and say so you have it sits there. A lot of this was this kind of private truths. Public lies situation, so you can read the paper and at your at your feet, dream, you could be like. Oh my god, this this guy karadzic's great, like oh, my god, you he's amazing une. You do want to talk about and you how to look at it as well and when you get home, you could just gotta be more honest with family, but the question is: to what degree does this propaganda? and this ideology infiltrate your actual thinking, you give examples of scientists in infiltrated. Science, oh yeah Basically, you know the sancho is the textbook example listening wisdom in biology so because marxism

is materialist. They the idea that genes pass on beer from one generation to the next Echo is a kind of was the rejection of mandolin and that kind of genetics, and if you reject means you're, really going in a bad direction. In terms of biology, the soviet union's biology biological programme became in russia laughing stock of one pointless senco claimed he crossed the tomato and a potato. You had things where they said they had nuclear, which it where we have fish and but they said they invented fusion or hardware or heavy water or hard water. It was point being in cultures like this. Your way to achieve a status was in a necessarily about your accomplishments, but about your loyalty to orthodoxy. So if you were saying things, got to a result that was congruent with the broader ideology as a whole. That was much better as a means of four

than yourself in the arts or in the science it's in the sciences. Then, if you had some, that was innovative, because, if you're innovative it's like well, how do I fit the sin with the broader? ideology the problem? Hotel, tear it as one of the many problems is everything literally everything has to be perceived through lands of ideology so- and that is you know there- were a strong scientists who were arrested or at least fired because of their theories about sun spot developments, because it was regard as an marxist there, just exit there was there was them an epidemic and all these horses got sick and because the vaccine didn't work on the horses, the back to reality were arrested because they regard as wreckers. It's like. We gave you a job, you didn't do it you're undermining the socialist state, so it's kind of a backward series of incentives and it's designed to maintain at all ass the ruling ideological superstructure, but you draw small distinction between

the ideology, the ideological superstructure and the propaganda aren't, those kind of intermixed together well It's goes like in the sciences and what's true in genetics or what's true in astronomy that doesn't really percolate out to the masses right so that the the prob does not, as may be covering. This scientist is great. Are these discoveries are great, but it's not They are the same as day to day work glorifying political leaders, but the problem is a manifestation of the idea that truth can be conjured up. Yes, you can be constructed and it could be altered quickly and then I just I wonder to nineteen for characters that I wanted to degree, it really good control, do you think that like how many people it affected. I can give you an example, a very easy one. So again with with regard to north korea.

Kim the great leader Kim IL sung, who is the founder of north korea, korea had a tumor on the back of his neck and he was too close to the skull this skyler by spinal column, so they couldn't operate on it and throughout his life it got bigger and bigger and I got mixed messages in my research about whether north koreans knew about it, because there was photograph them from this angle and annette a refugee and I asked her I'm like: did you know that he had this tumor? She goes yeah yeah. When people played him in the movies they would. You know you'd make up there and she goes it was an old war injury and I go. Why Wouldn'T- war, injury get bigger throughout your life and she stood there and she was like colloquy, but she never questioned it, but is it thing where they put the idea in her head, and since there is no reason to question it, she just kind of

was it her entire life. Until I talked to her audrey his name hi audrey, hi audrey. I wonder what percent of the population is like that? Here's, the thing if there is a cost to me questioning la senco, is a great scientist and there is no benefit. Why? Wouldn't I just now with what's going to keep me my family safe, but I also mean just the psychological there may be. A very local psychological costs are not, of course you going to jail, but a costly if you're going to kind of ruin the conversation by bringing it up kind of like yup, I do it and I'm just two in the Debbie downright longer yeah, but there's so the the whole metaphor of like there's two fish in the river one says of man, the water is really great today and the other one goes what's water like a friend of minds, an adriana her mom came to the west, then they went to

supermarket and the mom just in front of all the phantom this has set so is crying. What's going on. She goes, they told us. We had more food than you, and when something is you can it's? U can under think distance off this guy's an enemy, the people he was the heroic. He just offended someone. This is bullshit. It's almost impossible. logically to think I'm living in the truman show and that everything in the media is not just wrong, but it carefully construct. narrative and a lie like what there never going to tell the truth and how you will you know like what, like you, and even if that Even if you do understand that, how would you even read between the lines to produce what the truth is? Tat must have been a strange express, the stores of soldiers. The red army soldiers throughout what were too as they go to do.

in countries even romania, but in europe to judges to to understand that people live much better than they did then the soldier. Back in the soviet and that's why life has when they went back, Stalin had them killed because they saw too much were sent to the camps. so just to linger on this idea of free speech to this constant discussion about free speech in this modern debate about social media, another kind of stuff. What, Would you take on it, grounding it not some kind of shall discussion, free speech, today, but more in the context of a broader and this. Russian speech in non stalinist, russia, I hate the term free speech- as its used in many different context? Some. I agree with entirely someone discreet at all. I dont think everyone has something to say

or some jack the conversation and Have my local community and it used to be thy think, though, that the we were plate. Languages come support, free speech and free disk worse than I change that, because I dont like that term, because people will tell you with some reason that a few block me on twitter, you voicing my free speech, saigon. So I do I don't like the term as a whole, but one of the points of the white pill and something see enormous parallels with today. If you have one news outlets, or three news outlets with identical ideology, you're not going to be able to get to any kind of truth or any kind of useful it for me- it's all can be pre filtered for you. It's like a baby bird and you're eating the mother birds vomit right, but If you have what we have increasingly now with technology, if you have a

old, where everyone has a camera, their phone. If you have a world where anyone can put their ideas out there? Maybe they're banned from certain out but they're not literally vanished, like that the ussr. That is very healthy. That is something I'm enormously supportive of, because back in the day, if you only had the tv crews with cameras, you can only see what their capturing and they could edit it, whereas now a waste. this recently during covert right. You had these reporters with masks on and there talking, but the camera man was it wearing a mask. So you have the people in the street being like look They don't believe it you know, or as soon as though they will start filming the guy took the mask, often they'd film them. They go you are lying, you don't believe this met you're, putting aside first that some purpose, whether leave in the efficacy of mass or not, that purse included not only putting for show so that's or crimes.

People you know, are anti police. They say. Ok, the cops said this: did he draw gone in the sky, necessarily so on and so forth. It is so much better when everyone has access to as much of the information is possible and can make that, from decision themselves now. There certainly is a space for inform people too, no. No, no. No, this isn't what it looks like if you look here, if you look there, it's cropped here so on and so forth, but that's still much more useful than just having that twenty second clip that someone has decided to edit for you, so a truth has a way of because it's everything is so interconnected. Truth, no matter what has would of finding its way to the populace and also there's an it there's a big asymmetry in terms of trust So if I tell you a hundred truths, and one lie that lie is equal to the unscrewed, because once you catch me like em,

You don't have to kill someone every day to be a murderer right. You only have to do it once so. If you catch me in the brazen lie. You're gonna, look at everything I say after with an enormous grain of salt said that is another big asymmetry in favour of truth. If someone trusts you, you have to be honest, all the time and you're gonna make mistakes. You can all those mistakes we like hey. This is why I made the mistake this. Why says such as such but the flip side of that which has been disheartening to me is that people on the conspiracy side, a conspiracy, theory side of things. I've noticed how easy it is to just call something a lie. yes, and then that becomes viral for some reason, there's a desire for people. Yet for anyone who points out, The emperor is now wearing a closed. Even when the emperor is fully closed, so you know what that is, but that really seems to mess with his teeth mechanism. So why not? When it becomes viral too, people a liar, whether their alliance or not. It's like a few. You feel it.

Unstable ground, because it to me that idea of revealing a lie that somebody told is a really powerful mechanism to be people honest, but when you're like misusing crying wolf too much well, it seems seems to break the system, makes me nervous because there's also like a but I just if someone is a liar. That does mean literally everything they say July noble it is a lie. What isn't? I just noticed that there money to be made in calling out something is a lie. It is just ah the conspiracy theories, it's straight up the the the the the first thing some america that happen given explanation this not the mainstream explanation, no matter what sure lie, there's a lot of virality and might be made in that, and that makes me nervous because It doesn't matter if it's true or not. If it becomes anti establishment ideas, a viral was they choose, whether their true or not sure, but I think it

ablishn ideas, a powerful, whether their true or not. So I think, on the whole, I think you are and the whole it's good to test the power centres, but it just makes me. nervous in our attend. An economy, that the sexy thing seems to be the anti establishment message and then it feels like that becomes a drug. Well, you everything and anything the establishment says anything institution say: asia. Mainstream, says, must be wrong because it comes from the major and I I have that line that used you're supposed to take one red pill, not the whole bottle. If I am certainly one of those people who is of the idea that they are dishonest, far more or more often that they're honest. That said, there are people who are of the belief that use an extreme example that tromp is still the shadow president an end

you know, there's gonna, be these q and on mass arrests. I thought this was something that, like the daily beast, made up to make fun of mega, but I'll just in the fall with my buddy last night and he was like no. No. If you go to troth central they're like all over there, and if you disagree with them, they call you controlled opposition or grifter or so on, and so forth is unfortunate, where truth central trumps, social media of it. Oh truth said no to three ever he felt he forgot the name, with himself so his low as to create god, explained the jokes that can explain the jokes you do like a like the way twitter puts a context, Where do the joke and a pause and explained I turned to the camera: why I'd have left track, but the people there were the jokes. Are there? That's that's real humor. and then we just glad at her heart and that every clap, I think for the last two years is actually visa be covered, the overwhelming message. Was the experts know what they're talking about and if you are questioning this europe of facts deny

and you basically should be read out of polite society and one obvious counter. Example to this was social distancing. If social distancing, what efficacious. Why were there no attempts ever to bring it back right when you had different waves and if it was inefficacious? Why was it so insistence that we do it all do it at the very beginning? In fact, in many places, you'll still see the signs in the floor, with six feet apart, so there's an incongruous there and I think we are forgetting as the people the intensity, with an understandably to some extent. If you have this worldwide deadly plague, like yeah like it's gonna, be go where the leak The whole is so you really got a kind of get everyone on board, but to the the vehemence with which we are told. We know we're doing This is the way to solve it. If you don't do it, you are causing mass death that I, fed in very heavily to people's enormous sense of scepticism towards establishment sources. Beginner

leg he opened the book will acquire from committee is a strong stronghold Can move brings me to tears and it's funny cause. I re read the myth of sisyphus, which I had been recommending to. People like this book is not good, but he's got his ethos is my favorite of all. The philosophers sounds like the myth of sisyphus was a myth. He says after cute. All I maintain is that on this earth there are plagues and there are victims- and it's up to us so far as possible, not to join forces with the plagues. and why have that as the introductory quotes? The book is think, morality and ethics are very, very complicated subjects, there's lots of grey. Is what you don't know which way to choose, but at a base level he has another quotas ascribed to him. He never actually said but something about you know is the duty of thinking people not to be on the side of the executioners. If you are

we should do whatever we can not Blood on her hands, not to be murderers, not to want death, and that in and of itself is a big pill for a lot of people to swallow were all brought up. Taught that war is a lie. Resort, and yet, when it comes to international affairs is always often a first priority and people are champing at the bit to start going in and killing people, and what war means Goodbye soldiers, the bad guy soldiers it My concern, is always with the civilians, with the kids who become more fence with the wives, come widows and, and things like that and ended communities which are you'd, have ruined forever so I'd love that court of his eye, I think he's Neither the book started, it was going to be a real can thought I was was rip off. Buddy vine holiday, what he did with the stoics ado about come who then

I started rereading can move like others. I've read more into him than Israel there, and then the whole of the direction. See you wanted to do a mouth like existentialist manifesto so like email that committee one. It must imagine. Sis was happy, look more like canoe for today and what his philosophy can teach us like ryan did with his many books I'm still here. That was gonna be called. The point of tears live to the point planetary, yes, but the titles guinea. The point of view, I know, but you know that from now on and what s the good line right here, so many good lines. Maybe it's not about an algerian bed, alright without usable using authority. Oh, he was praying guy and he got around at one percent of the audience of humans and urge you think now that the word lithuania, What percent them have a computer? Look it up, lothario, it's not,

We learn our reality h area with area without area, a man. who behave selfishly inner, responsive, being sexual relationships with women, their seduced by handsome could end quote their city, by handsome authority who gain control of the financial affairs alighted at it, I always thought was moors. Is that someone is like a stud up like a play? but now the area is a millennium malevolent already realised that ok well, then, he's officially. Ok, that's not him irresponsibly a man too, other wine ran, would be proud selfishly Well that always selfish you wouldn't like that kind of selfishness, that's actually heinous a man who behave selfish in europe irresponsibly in sexual relationships with women. Her yoga say he was, he was just a player, I'm not a baby s made a start out of think he was promiscuous particular meet, you didn't get, he got, he didn't never got laid Yes, you have died of signals that the progress from process was it ok, honey

well yeah, and I don't with you asking me like. I knew the guy I I heard is from and it he never had a deep, loving fulfilling relationship, It very skew understanding and the way he wrote about women oh somebody wrote to me and said: that's characterisation than he was She very respectful will give it here the line if you're going for women bring a whip was not human. The children. If I were to quote you from your twitter yeah, I think I can make a very convincing argument that your sexist racist and probably a nazi while I do own, like some of hitler stuff exactly that I got the arrest

in my case, I feel like I have a number I'll get to the hung by his own pie here, but this isn't a tie, the noose. You should've thought about that when you were saying all those things. Okay, what do you think of the leak of the twitter files? I was so happy that elon gave the information to matty b and Barry weiss, who are both by any metric lefties who are. Both professional journalists of long standing with great reza maize and overnight now they're they're doing pr for the world's rich, which, although the pipeline was the fact that you had all these corporate journalists now have any play catch up and not having control of the microphone to me, which is absolutely a me

thing. I think transparency is what brought down a man ass, like the soviet union and what will bring down what negative aspects the regime? We have here when you see them. Acha nations behind the scenes, and then, when you see the rationalizations after the fact you realize ugly. People are not acting in good faith. The fact that example than your post article about the hunter by laptop and how the the new york times covered. It is well they dimension in kind, dick fix twitter made it. So I could, even dm you, the link to the new post article. Was a tool they had previously used only to prevent child pornography So that shows to what extent they were willing to put their thumb on the scale

but it also shows that for any layman, when they're looking at this to realize what you are perceiving as news or information, is very much sculpted I and guided by powerful people who have a vested interest in maintaining their power I think to me the important lesson. Is this not a left, the right thing? I will not at all in our readying horrorless, yes and put, and also the important lesson there. I think, at least in the case of twitter. In our society its if it's pre slope you get their overnight. He's start, you started those a little bit a little bit to saddam's information to just a little bit? Did you start sending emails to each other a little bit and becomes more more. Ah he, u, you start it for me, just

geishas, is still getting a little more more comfortable kind of talking about the stuff. I think there's Who is to fight that? One is having hardcore integrity up front said: don't don't even opened the door, but I think realistically. Nature is what it is, as I think, the only ways to transparency is This is why the nice, I hate the fact, dig up politicize I really hate that the right has have run with it like look. The left is planning, They recollections and so on to me it should be left to right should be about politics. Is that transparency is good company should do the same. Facebook should do the same in effect that transparency will protect facebook. You protect Google, I'm look like this. our situation tell us what to do with the and will do our best. I remember when I was writing the new right too. there's line was we're not on its

well you guys, what the metrics are by which we ban or censor people, because then bad actors are going to navigate around them and it's like what are you doing like just tell people in any establishment? What are the rules for which behavior is permissible? If I go to a store, if I return, the sweater is the cash back, no refunds, or if I get store credit, you know what I mean so Oh that they were having this place, which is presented as a huge international space where public discourse- and there I'm telling you had a time. This is what will tolerate this- is what will warn you about this. What will kick you out overnight? That's me was crazy and outrageous. And I'm really pleased with to what extent line. Is it at it is being open with

our policies and what I'm really want to commend him about is now triggered, because one of the things that he took over he's, like our first priority, We child pornography and child exploitation near you write that was he's like like right. She'll, slurs, homophobic slurs, anti semitic, slurs, yeah yeah, that's cool, kids, kids, getting harmed is number one, and you know he fired the old task force because they were Doing their job lies a blue who you know you. She had been on this for a long time, but people were victims of child pornography, child exploitation. we're emailing twitter being like these. Are my images get them off of their like too bad porn is allowed on twitter. He starts trying to crack down on it. This is a very hard problem, because these bad actor I have mechanisms to evade of you know being banned. They they want to get the for lack of a better term product out there, forbes magazine

Who is an agent of the devil, had a tweet and they treated this nine times? You know now that elements here, twitters child porn nightmare, has gotten much worse. They this nine times I looked up you. Can anyone listening, can look up, look a forbes and do a search. They never mentioned this problem before so now that iran is doing something about it. Now, it's a problem, for you know it's a problem: airlines, the problem, it's not the child porn that you guys had a problem with and that to me is like yeah. I understand that you think that iran is a bad guy. Cause he's up said: you're, apple, cart. This isn't a political issue. This isn't a gotcha moment. This is a right. Here are some tips. We talked a ten experts, digital experts and here are some techniques. Mr musk, that you might want to take from us free of charge that will help you solve this. That would be a great article, and I just want to use this opportunity to say quite clearly and strongly that even

twitter and other parts of the internet age are turpitude Some of my stay misdemeanor right in this case. Meaning, leaning, right, right wing the cases leaning left left wing, I'm I'm a political or at least they tried to be in my thinking. Take one issue at a time I do too an opinion? Each issued a time by eight camps at our try to avoid poodle? cows in general, they just it sucks. Promoting transparency in his case are celebrating transparency, is somehow connected to being right way. No, it's being made into so suppose. A euphemism for being right wing is. Is it sucks? It sucks, even though I'm wearing a red sue- and this is very red themed conversation. Well, that's

in the revolution. Was the color of blood, on that for a second ok, you mention your tears butter with each other. of publish yes to adjust, linger that decision. What's what are the pros and cons of self publishing cons are. It is acceptable in our current, business, climate or cultural climate for corporate media outlets to pretend the book doesn't exist so basically, and there is reason for it all I can to make the case them pretty easily. Someone's doing it themselves, who is this guy's, some crackpot writing crazy stuff from his basement right, it's a little different thing for me: cause I'm an established their c span gave me an hour on book tv still crap up a little crowd established for dear reader. I think I was the

I just want to get an hour and book tv for a book that I did myself, and so there is space for that and it didn't go through of vetting process. The way a book go through felt sure did so. Those are the minuses. Rose are I can drop it. publish it immediately. I if you go through, republish. You have to wait a year. You can do what you either have the book you want. Instead of the gatt past the editor and some editors are very, very good and dismal spectrum. Some them not so good, some good, some As I level at the rio, killers alright beat that this good people. this pack of people both sides, I don't mean the white nationalists, who I condemn totally. So, but the thing is in terms of money you get six times as much profit when you sell published, when you go through corporate publisher. The buck stops here

It's you know in one of my books, I co author. I wanted to mention the name. There is a typo and they didn't they don't care, they fix it. For the paper back edition, here since I'm going through amazon, if there's a typo, I can fix it, live and update leah. Yet because you stop do yeah, so that's very you smell. Like a fight club thing, were you can answer, I get a pick and one of the pages. Ok, why are you so? Why do you keep texted me to send you dick picks I didn't talk about interested in your letter. Writer right get. I guess I'm not the editor. I get a north Paul, I get it. The their advantage, just socially is. I think people are like. I found this with the kick start I did for de reader. People are much more excited to buy it and it and talk about it when they know you're doing it yourself. Instead, you're. Getting a big check from. A modern, Sarber collins penguin, however, are you also trying

some kind of service to get a distributed to bookstores, or you just now to do emma's out now, just amazon, yeah and that's probably work more sales happen in the vast majority of. So it's not going to be in bookstores, so with how difficult the process of getting it on amazon. So I'll tell you a funny story about how amazon works and because this was a I always planned for, because everyone at people's here's another piece of advice, I will give people your life, will be a lot easier if you realize that the majority of people every industry about their jobs like once you have that realisation. Everything else makes sense in you. Your life will be a lot easier right. So what Did they anarchist handbook, which was a collection of essays from various anarchist history, when I say it had to amazon? There is a lot copyright issues, cause they're like you, have them in this essay do have the rights this s, ass, go back a fourth them a lot make sure I had copyright that where everything was public domain and that and the thing is you forward,

you know, you updated you getting information three days, there's another promise a three days. So it's weeks, the other thing with their create space programme is the paper back and the e book the kindle are approved in evidently so just gives its approval once out of the other after I published Eric this handbook and it was a big success they unleashed by unrolled. Excuse me a hard cover addition programme so like a great I'll put it hard cover there. I'm sorry. This is to similar to Murat parts in every state in which is a pamphlet or short book that Murat barred wrote. I go well I have the entirety of anatomy state in here. I have permission from the mrs institute in writing which are giving to you to reprint. And you guys already have been published for a year as a paper back any book and they like to bad bet blocked. So it's not available as

cover on amazon, even though its available, maybe now it's can be pulled as paper equity book. So with this book, I was anticipating a right. This gonna be some whatever I the thing with how it works is you have to upload it and hit publish and they got away for the approval yep, I'm like okay, this is going to be. Who knows I just wanted to get as fast as possible? Four am less than twenty four hours. I get a notification, congratulations your books, available, sale and after run down, stairs and pull it from publication, because, If it was out- and I didn't finish- editing it yet so that's the situation there, oh those fascinating, but as like powerful. That's like yours is on your hands. It's on you. Yes, and I think the programme is great. It charts just like any other book. The quality. The books is great, I am very happy with. I look I've, no contact with them. My boy

tucker max, yet a company that did this and dig basically help people support them book. They did goggins book at the gift, given our yeah, maybe the email near cynthia- and he said I have done dozens, maybe hundreds of books with them I have now. been able to get someone on the phone, so I don't know what's going on over there, but guys if you want to reach out to me, please call me michael at lex friedman, darker friedman, eldorado yeah. If you ever have any complaints, please just twitter about Michael now. What are you waiting? So few establish authors of polish. Me why it seems like it makes perfect sense in this model society to be able to. When you finish the book to publish it within a few days, if you I think I talked to Jordan petersen about this at length.

taylor, his daughter, whom also good friends with she's actually named after gorbachev, whose two big hear of this book, also friend, mackay you know I was in talks too, if you gorbachev then covered hit, and that's when the big regrets of my life that didn't get. I think, if I met him, I would be. on my knees, literally kissing his feet, crying coercive. It was you I mean why the big points of the white pill is there were so many moments when recalling him up send in the tanks. We want another tienanmen square and he's like fuck, you so when you have anyone who has the capacity to murder thousands of people and chooses to withhold that power like all I could do, is applaud. He resisted the cynicism, yes, which are those that why the authors white an approach of the book, I think they are still in the

no, how like there's this whole idea, bow if your movie actor, you don't go on tv because at the kind of ruins your brand, so that's kind of going away. There's a lot of shows where the lead is now like a former movie actor, and this is kind of like the big thing. Like Matthew, mokanna, hey, you know he had a tv show on each year. I believe so. I think there is a kind of like wait a minute with that, and he said I said all right- right right he can't hear writer. I d I dont know if that is the job of explaining what look at the current export. Okay. So I think for them it might be a a loss of credibility to some extent, but be they their agent whose job is to sell them and get a big advance, wouldn't be encouraged to self publish because the age you know, so I don't think it's percolated to powerful will yet how feasible this is and how profitable it is and how they?

still be able to reach their audience, and I feel if you know I dont. If anarchist handbook wasn't such a gigantic success, I would be more more nervous about the white pill, but the fact that was then that I sought from start to finish, and I know the ins and outs now I'm like what are you guys bringing to the table sites taking year of my time and introducing edits that I would not otherwise agree with. I think, for some people a book is a is a sort of beacon of reputation. yes, I guess it's really important to not do somehow not as much reputation associated with self published book unless a successful, yes, And then, and then, like thee, its success outshines actual, however, was published. I think give egg is david, goggins self published his book? Does it used to be? you self published when you can't get a book deal. So second admission of failure. Yes, would recommended as something for for others.

well, I would recommend it as something for authors of a certain stature for lack of better term god, because it is still in terms of your resume and your experience. It's better to get a crappy advance and have a book with saint martens that goes nowhere. Then a self published book that goes no were so The other thing is, you have to make sure you have enough at audience that you can move some copies. What about only fence? Would you recommend authors. What made you think you know can make if we didn't like bathtub scenes in only fence logic, I just reading like reading like animal farm, just like our cities, they already this ok snowflake love on ice. in august all very lowest his name sober though the horse boxer? I've hung like a bucks, a hollow ahead. I will work harder.

that guy? I think about that girl lot boxer, he says motto was I will wear carter, anything that happens like the the that the pigs would take advantage in his response to everything. Would you, he was inspired me because he never gave in to the synthesis right and they killed him yeah, spoiler, sorry, but a good way to die, never giving it well yeah. There's a lot of that in this book about the people who were like I'm not you're, not gonna. Break me like I am bigger than this Did you ever believe in santa I remember the day I woke up a new year and there was a present under my pillow and it was like holy shit. Gazette Moreau left it. I thought that he leaves your president or your pillow grace. He believed, but what I thought the story was going to be when you first realize he's not.

Well, I don't remember when I realized he wasn't real, but that story was. I did think you re allows like. Oh my god. Ok there's this I did too, and I remember aren't they can put myself in the mindset of the kind of person they believed he was real What did I think was my world view that allowed like a job in person in a red suit to be real. I do remember, I think the first time a cent. I showed up to our lead lived in this very small apartment. and when he first showed up to our apartment, I just remember, it is usually drunk as and smiled, party has a new year's party whatever so well, the more the premature supper, santa claus adjustment. bird this while this this gotten lego real fast, Of course I get out. I really thinking, of course. Of course you will be like what was I thinking

because I think it is going to be some perfect, like being a perfect being like better than like the best of humanity, you just a regular dude kind of fat, but like sexy fat. It was easier not really that jolly instead of initiative should really have not shower in awhile, but also funny. I remember- I loved telling this story How old I was- and I must have five or six- and it is just that each where you distinguish between. What's real and what's not so like vikings and It's an ninjas, a real and dragons An mermaids and elves or fake. And I was on the corner of shore parkway right before the park and bensonhurst in brooklyn round the corner wearing a Denham vest? was a little person, a dwarf and I saw him and I was like a right back to the drawing board. Like I don't know, what's real are not neutral,

because I just saw its work, so I don't know what's going on and since then giving you we should put our jones. You ve continue the journey of not knowing what's real life. That's correct! I, let's talk about the next steps at the sound took power is started, to actually implementing some the economic, some of the policies and this idea of collectivization yep yeah What's the story of that and they are in the twenties leading into the thirties- was they idea was the relationship between the regime. The idea, Jim. The farmers will there's always and and obviously very much this day, an enormous amount of an enmity for black. But a term hatred between ukraine and russia. I mean this is no centuries in the making, if not more and the ukraine or ukraine now, but at the time the of sick in the region. is and still is the bread basket of europe whose very for lands? This is where the food comes from

and this was a issue also for lenin, as I discuss in the book as when you had famines there, you know you have famines throughout What later became the soviet union and the problem is this happened north korea's, while the nineties, when they don't have food If you let, in foreigners in feed your people, all of a sudden the government either superfluous or downright nina deleterious to their well being and that's a threat. Your power. So Lenin, let in can organization the early twenties which has actually headed by herbert hoover of all people and after while hoover left, because he found that the bolsheviks were just taking the grain that the americans were given to feed the people and selling it for export, while the people suffered and one of the people who grew up in these. Starvation. Times was a young, mikhail gorbachev where he had know. I think I'd like a quarter, a third of his village, starved to death during one of The product famines

let Stalin's idea. This was a good mecca. Then for him to break the idea of ukraine being an independent nation and within its own identity and you know he had this kind of liquidation of the cool ox in a very famously which, thankfully, much more discuss now than it was. Maybe when you and I were kids and a cooler, the real meaning you're that literal, meaning is kind of this wealthy landowner right, but very quickly, it's gonna like it becomes our group himself. You know there is a big incentive to call someone you didn't like a cool, ok and then good luck to you, because now the eyes of the state are on you and you have to prove that you know you didn't hire people you didn't have for cows or how many acres assessments of worth, they took a huge, Added to the population, the gulags and they just deport them. You know that lands that they had for generations and just spreading throughout

the broader russia. Many them never made it that many them were killed. This was by design in the dark about the kulaks, like you said when it becomes Abused ones because e the the are group is the key is supposed to be wealthier and serve the general. Raw farmer peasant and so basically he's your mechanism of resentment, and yet it s better off must be better off because your clock, let's get rid of them, and it s just just from an economic perspective, I even leaving ethics aside- it basically completely d, this de incentivize productivity wants you to fail, because if you succeed, you're cool, ok, you're going to be torture, you and be deported. Are you going to be right it other than also your pork. As he's rich. They had ass, a big part of it so while this was going on and food was coming ireland, because you had you for

weather conditions. There was a campaign about oh the reason your hungary is because the cool ox or hoarding other grain and if you're, somewhere else in soviet union, how he was the only better because Europe, am told. Every year the crops are bumper crop, bumper crop, bumper crop and now there's no food, there's no bread, and so you see we we produced all this bread, it's not getting to you cause the coolest, sir. In the green. So there they came like come in what became, to hold him more and apple gown, whose again, historian, who fortunately I just with a logic of temporary politics, but whose done so much great work about there the soviet union, that I pretty much give her black Check and whatever she want say nowadays you know she greater. what a great book, what this called red famine and these activists- descended on these villages like locusts and their job, was to requisition as much food is possible and they would come

back. You know at all hours of the night to make sure you were hiding food, and this is was so pernicious about it her own body would betray you. They could look at you, and see that you're not losing weight. You got those chubby cheeks. That means you have food and that's the government's food. That is the fruit of the people and, if you are key, food for yourself, you are stealing from the people, you're an enemy of the people and you deserve whatever comes to you what's a point where their eating didn't have grained to plant for the next harvest, and what even sicker as you know, one of the big criticisms of of communists of the tsar was his internal passport system. that. I can't go out. I want within russia, the russian empire without permission style we introduced this self, your village was targeted, you can't leave now some people got away, they try to get to the cities is so and so forth, but you get to the city

you're starving. You have no clothes, you're a cool I'm hungry because a you and now you're too lazy to where I get the thought of there, and there were stories you note yeah? You know I have them in the white pill of this x, starving, teenage girl and she's begging for food and the guy knox, the shopkeeper knox, the food at her hand and she dies- spot and everyone that lie knew nothing. You know give her any food or any sympathy, because she's, a cooler sympathiser very quickly if you're cooler sympathiser, all that has happened is someone has to call. I think it was the gave you d at the time needed a different name, so that, with a check that the secret police and that's like oh, you see, or whatever name was. She was a collects sympathiser. We saw cu luck. Who is trying to make us now for food? too lazy to work and she felt so bad for them. So you might want to check in a genius idea in thirty two and thirty three harder, more it wasn't just

small injustice here and there he was. starvation, yes and suffering yes million starve to death in the ukraine alone and by design. So you are much in an apple bombs book red famine, yet one ukraine but another, one book on on the topic and by the way. Thank you for recommending that to me. Those are her works amazing, yeah, it's a it's, a really really powerful, be a book about not just the on a more but like the context of ukraine, sk, the history of ukraine, that's relish For today understand, understand the relationship between russia and ukraine, but another group What is blood lands europe between hitler and Stalin by Timothy said? I dunno. I think you also recommend that to me at some point- or maybe not I haven't, but I've I've I'm familiar with avid, read it ah, so he he does quite a bit of his his brief, but

finally, while research writing about cannibalism there and that it was not until during the stolen imposed feminine soviet ukraine for parents to cook and eat their children. He writes, quote I was a moral, as was as the physical struggle a woman doktor wrote to a friend in june. did thirty three that she had not yet become a cannibal, but was not sure that issue it'd be won by the time my letter reaches you in quotes. The good people died. First, those who refused to steal or to prostitute themselves died. Those who gave food to others died those who refused to eat. corpses died. Those who refused to kill their fellow man died. Parents who resisted cannibalism died. With their children dead and their staff Isn't there about yeah, cooking, cooking, your children, the the other thing, both cannibalism about family in general, there stood out to me

unlike a lot of atrocities, is the peace there are starving, are exhausted there, their basically unable to think So they don't even have the energy to protest. that is a strange kind of way to kill thinking in the populace that that it occurs I suppose it was obvious, but there's some fundamental starvation, where it's Slowly removes your humanity. Yet there is a there was a scene in the book were on a lot of times. People literally go crazy. And there's a scene where mom it's some nursing. A translation was nursing, her kid and she was mad from hunger and she starts from being the crap her baby and kicking it, and then she reversed the normal, like nothing, had happened their madness that year, you lose their use, your mind and

I mean I'm not the physiological cause of this. It's not you! It's I think it's know someone has dealt with the glycogen depletion it and affects their mood. Things like that. taken to an extreme who knows what happens when parts of the brain start functioning and start imploding and but yeah, it's um. What I wanted. What just happened! This is something that's really cool regarding the holiday more so there one western journalists, Gareth Jones who was like a right something's, not adding up here so he was supposed to take a train through ukraine and he got out early. And decided to start walking through the countryside. To govern village to village, and I'll, get the historian a minute right before, We started recording, I got spoken the mail order on november twenty eightth from great britain, it was the only copy available on the whole internet. It's called exe

in such a rush in nineteen, thirty one it is anonymous and its Gareth jones the introduction it was published by the elton press in pittsburgh, yourself published and he just says forward is just as by the author. So it was the author who when, alongside the guards Jones was summoned by the name of. Henry John Heinz, who was heir to the heinz fortune. And you only know that if you start looking, the internet cause his name's that era this book. While I open this book up right when I got it right before we're taping and it's signed by him, and it took me a second of lightweight a minute who's. The signed by and its hd heinz is. His name was jack Heinz but whose Henry John heinz from so This is a very excited that I had some miracle: the mail but christmas murkison.

MRS merkel travelled. They travelled together. They travelled together, so this books a diary of their travels. Why thing so few journalists? They was able to do what he did. so there were several reasons. First of all, if you were a western journalists in the soviet union, europe under very strict circumstances? First of all, you could be deport any, You had no there's, no pretence that you have a right to be a journalist in, as especially as a representative of a capitalist by which they meant western paper. Second, it was a complete nightmare. Getting your paper your articles filed because you had a sensor that you had to go through and the sensors job whose life depended on it was to make sure that your story was contagious to the soviet union or at least neutral, and they had all sorts of techniques. You know they could spot they spied on you all the time they follow you around, because you know your foreigner, but also that sensor had to answer somebody. So all the sensor could

has to do is be like look, I'm having trouble with my supervisor and therefore it could be like. What can I talk to supervisors like love, so it s not possible. and he's on deadline. But it's too bad bureaucracy doesn't recognise the needs of deadlines. So there was a big pressure, a lot of pressure on western journalists to have to go, through this net and that's literally constant. You know every story, it's gonna, be a fight. So at a certain point yours, and if you like a right and you're gonna precepts yourself, you know, if you know all right. If I include this, it's not gonna get through what is supposed to do. I think human beings are naturally and also a lot of these journalists were pro soviet. They This is the society, the future at least everyone's trying to make it a better cunt. for everyone, not like back home with a poor force that between the cracks we gotta do all we can to make this work and,

You know there was a lot of. I want to say conspiracy, but with in the industry there was a consensus that the Stalin was the good guy and we were, if not the bad guys, certainly not as good in certain regards so when this news of the famine started, percolating all the other western journalists, besides garrett jones and knock a mug ridge, we're safe, it's true. It's nothing that they haven't seen before at the paper that took the lead in this was in your times with their guy walter durant. He who had previously won a pulitzer and had any Stalin, which is which enormously rare honour for westerner an he, because he has so much experience covering russian the soviet union. He basically took the lead and other people followed his lady. He was kind of the dean of the press corps in russia,

He made a point and the thing there is so many quotes a half from him. Where he's not only denying that this mass starvation is happening he's also going after journalists were questioning the narrative and he you know he says things like look the this is nothing that the russians have an experts before they're, simply tightening their belts, and it's like you only have to tighten your belt when you don't have enough food, it's not like. They started a new exercise. Regimen and now their body fat is dropping. That's, why would someone tides her belt, so that was one and there, the new york times at a thirteen page? article big headline, russians hungry, not starving, and he went after Jones. He went after my mugridge. I believe, though he d got to mortgage, but the point being that this is just propaganda from people who want to see in the fail. You didn't understand what their building here in ear. He had so many excuses like oh, you know the reason all these

russians are supposedly leaving their villages to go to. The cities, isn't cause, there's no food, it's because they're nomadic it's tradition. They they go from town to town, looking for new experiences, and it's just At a certain point- and I think forty one where he was actually like or fifty one. Rather I remember he was Like oh well, I guess I was kind of wrong and it's like he's, like any journalist worth his salt, can admit when he's wrong and it's like well, were you worth your salt, because you sure you he explicitly said there's no point in sending out journalists look for themselves. I've been to the countryside in everyone's fine, and it's just that the loudest p they are making noise, whereas everyone else is doing the work and neo trains and this isn't about famine, but it's about western sceptical about collectivization, which is just simply

where farming, and yet it was anyway, farming invaders results were by design and also accidently apsley catastrophic. How hard was it to see the truth that time you think do you think that was a mistake that is understandable to make the journalist if my job as a journalist it I have two bosses. If I'm in moscow, I've got my reporter in new york or london or whatever, but I've gotten sensor here and he is making sure I have a house that apartment he make sure I have food, he may have access to dignitaries he's my lifeline if I piss him off a month playing out of town. So loud enough is that enough to war. Slowly suffocate the integrity of a journalist. I don't they slow at all, and it was a clearly enough and because whether

I disagree with that decision and I think the failure of integrity has to come europe and the new data on the american side that assists the flock of sure, whatever that all move in the same narrative right. I think journalists would like to be the kind of people that have integrity. So there conscious of sacrificing our integrity, they wouldn't do it if their conscious of an act thus doing it. They will do it, so it has to happen like a lobster. Slowly boil, No, I think it happens. Would everyone else is basic rights. Agree chorus. River is, of course, with it, that's exactly the try so is not the act, but they will again. I have talked in, or journalists were I get the sense that they will sell their sole for access because that's their job. Is it, though, because what they do with journalists do as seen american journalist,

They take a huge amount of price for having gone to the interview you, however, that is the putin interview and, first of all, they the gleam there. The glowing with pride its use, they're always showing off to the other journalists. Yes in america, so they're going they showing off? Like look? I got the axis you didn't and second, they're doing when they show up to the interview. Is they ask all the questions signal to the other journalists that were on the same side. They asked the most generic aggressor of questions to which they know the answers to do that they just they want they want to base, could get the access and ask the current code hard in the questions that they know will not be answered in this? Is that the entire machinery of it is not it's this modern journalism and I suppose at that time it was

Worse, it was worse, they weren't even doing the hard hitting the eye. The display of hard hitting question right, because this pr piece to think about what high status that is, if I'm an american journey in Moscow I'm allowed in this secretive country, I'm in a I'm, the I'm, the guy who's very privileged to have asked this to live in moscow and tell americans which oral fascinating about this new society, the future. What it's like as soon as I cannot start question- The narrative I'm gonna get kicked out a humiliated very publicly well I thought you were Moscow. What am I supposed to say? So? You know they are eugene. Lions was he's one, rose in the book, he was a young communist. An ethic was united press. He was working for they sent him there and when he went there he's like. Oh, this is not what I thought it was going to be like this is horrible. Uneasy t turn very heavily against it.

He talks about how they would write one thing and say another thing and then think another thing: each of those steps was just more more like kind of lying. In terms, maintaining your sanity and maintaining your narrative. So you reference end up a bomb and say that quote: starvation was not simply consequence, it was the goal and it was the law Stalin intended to break the ukrainians once and for all. it thus became common for villagers despite inform one another. Turning in a neighbour for her, a sack of grain. Maybe the easiest and safest way to procure food for one's family yeah toward degree. Was this the intention to it? To what degree does Stalin anticipate this kind of

fr as a consequence of the cultivation policy. I dont know that he intended the suffering to be consequence, the collective position, but he is quite apparent and I think there is a pretty heavy consensus nowadays. that his gold was very much cause ukraine and resent the tsar it and had this kind of very contentious relationship. Russia, which were obviously very clearly remains. Today I mean the hatred of ukrainians, for russians proceeded Putin's war. I mean this is Even when I was a kid you know, I obviously remember it, but my parents just told me like that True that they had understandably and their based glitter foreign occupation, what they are voting for, patient projects to your parents, thought about a hatred by ukraine towards russian ya'll. Yes, oh yes, I any mean know: I certainly haven't visited there this year because of the

most recent invasion favoured in February that hatred is nationwide and very intense, but I do no, I think the feeling the emotions were much more complex before, but at the same, These are under occupation before right and they could speak ukrainian that seek russian. So this was a thing, but because of the forced intermixing, it's a curse. The more complex story, hooker- and I mean they- they weren't, certainly fans. yeah. But there's people came from my living there, there marrying their falling in love their working with each other, so like there's a the bigger atrocity of the genocide. But there is also the reality of intermixing of peoples. Well sure I mean the atrocity of slavery in the united states, but, There is also a reality that there is now an intermixing of other peoples,

no, they fall in love and they live after after slavers was abolished. As this is the real like a after the genocide right proceeds it's a kind of generational integration that still remembers like the the suffering reverberates, but there still and it's a different culture, that's created, and now they think I mean. I have complex agreement. Was my families from ukraine so havoc and is my understanding? grounded in soviet ukraine, but there's something in the last thirty years, that's different were now after the collapse of the soviet union. There's a true may be renewed fight for independence. That's different thing, but is also different, like what you know. If I go to north korea is an american right there very friendly now right, they don't perceive me

as part of the yank devils there like ok, you're, an american, but you can you come for america, so yeah, there's gonna be in her marriage, but that's a big difference between the perception of russia as an entity as posted some individual russians. just as that wasn't in the they experience have had talking to a lot of friends and family ukraine until the war started. They said they really didn't. Have this kind of loki animosity toward russians know? There is a lot of awe factional conflict inside ukraine. Ok, now the whole countries united. I think I think, there's a clarity now, the war, give clarity that wasn't there before well. This is, I was saying earlier, how humans define themselves by opposition. So now that there's a war, it's like okay, this all this little stuff doesn't matter. We are all united because we have a common enemy, but there's also a

As you know, there's regions in theirs dishes, groups of different people happier and then one of the big deal of course, is the city verses, rural and an guess. Ukraine is is this. ukraine and western ukraine is very difficult to know what the truth. This is my personal experiences sampled. Right, yo at er, I dunno how many ukrainians, I know- maybe like thirty or forty before this trip, like thirty or forty, and then I'm clear with just a handful. but then it's hard to know cause you get a lot of western press perspective and you get to the russian perspective. You gather perspectives, it's very hard to know how much hate there is outside of this conflict. So my my my primary question is in this way. I a lot of people want to visit. Ukraine is, will you ever fig? Will you ever be able to forgive the russians and lotta people said the never never so this isn't just about assuming.

assuming we win, they would say assuming will win was still not ever. Forgive, never never forgive and, and they set in the way were alike. Not only us, but our children will never forgive. in the end, it wasn't just in a way it wasn't just about right. showed the russian leadership is about the prussian people, but a lot of people also said that this is where this is our feeling. Currently we understand you you're lost in the non rage of war, because you loosen, when I mean, if you ask the americans, would ever be friends of germany or japan. You'd be like. Are you kidding after pro harbour? yeah and not about. Of course, most america's didn't feel pearl. Harbor is different, it's. A good point. Was your land but the way when imagine, wasn't just pro harbor, but it was new york and I the chicago in and out

as in all these cease being being bombed, yeah, yeah, it's it's Just to linger on this one, ukraine curly, does a break. hard to see what's going on there now, that is on the same land as the same cities, this. stories in our search like brought back to the surface, to pit the joy racial pain, as wasn't it time. The you're writing about getting is a fundamentally different country, different ward, situation, or does it do you hear echoes of the same? I dont think its. Because I think there is no one or I mean that there is no one who is like I'm glad. This is happening to the ukrainian people right, so even the people who are for Putin

for the invasion and whatever justification they might have for his war? No one is like yeah, let's get those young darn ukrainians. I think there was that since in america, after nine eleven, when We invade afghanistan and iraq, and there was like f those iraqis if those f afghan people whereas now I think it's completely opposite I do. I also think a lot of russians sure. If I asked them, they are not thinking like you, that's what the ukrainian people off the map think whatever reasons they have, that it's not kind of going after this, even if you have the kind of roma people against the citizenry, it's not to that level. Of the hatred, the cool ox hatred of of those villages, are still believe, though, amongst the soldiers outside the big cities, their belief that day, cranium people who the russian soldiers believer their brothers and sisters are occupied by evil regime? Ok

than to save them from evil regime? That's also very different from the attitude of the holiday. More and also there is a dispute in the press about the causes, the consequences, the victims, villains of foods more, but when it came to this no one, no one is denying that the war is happening. The new york times isn't saying everything is fine and the only reason people are saying it's a problem is because they hate Putin or the hates lynskey that that's not a thing and the fact that we have so much footage of what's happening in ukraine, and you know you have. It takes two seconds to go. Google and you have a map of you know. Russian advancement was It would act for what parts of the occupying what parts are not as they control I did a little live stream. I raised money for uk refugees to feed them cause. That's my concern is keeping people fed

There was none of that. You know and end the two people who kindest spoke, the truth gara jones was shot. I think the day before his thirtieth birthday, while he was Dad undercutting uncovering use it other things in mongolia. Knocker marguerite had problem finding work when he expose this and I think the like restocking earlier. The ubiquity of things like cellphones camera phones would make something like this I don't know, I want to say an impossibility. They could still do it, but you be really hard to covered up were so to push back on that. If you just look at iran, I will just add a difference. I agree with you more say, but I would also draw different distinction when the atrocities happening to a young people versus there's a war, ukraine, is a sovereign, independent nation there's now war between two nations. It feels like it's easier for you

Was somehow reveal the truth in that when that ass. It is happening within the soviet union for some reason, that's easier to hide this easier. For gross deceive themselves and easier for the authoritarian leader to hide the. I think I agree with you, and so that's that's the dark. I mean that's why people may be. Maybe you can educate me on this, but this. This is why I think people don't talk about furthermore, and other atrocities the greatly forward, because it's inside the country, yeah forces the holocaust. As part of a war, Why is that? The we are there were two almost like were afraid polite to what what is it that we don't want to cover the atrocities because side, the country like it's their business? So we don't want to talk in other words, what is, I think, it's that what we refer as the news is in the best

this of selling narratives right, and the narrative of the holocaust is a very powerful one, which is, if you let hatred of a sub group in a population get out of control. This is the altar consequence- and this is something that we all have to be scared of undue ever in our power to avoid in the future for any outgroup, whereas what narrative of the holiday more sometimes go. Whence killer on citizens. There's nothing you can do about it. There is nothing we I mean. They would have. Let us send food, they would acknowledge, like the newspapers, even even russia were in acknowledging it like. What's this like this, the issues I had with regard to trying to advocate for the north korean people. There were four we like well. What can I do as an american, a very natural question and on I dont know I like all I know, is how to speak to what is happening, but in terms of next steps I dont have a good answer for you, so that is where the news kind of does break.

Down if there isn't a story or a call to action? The kind of you can almost like having a movie with a cliffhanger and business sequels like what am I supposed to do here like this, is not scratching that each week For me, what, as in consumer of news a layman, is like ok, here's the story, there was a bad guy in the cup shot him. they took him to jail now the bad guys caught beginning middle end here is just like now did this a lot of people were executed, starved, isn't that awful well, now, still in power now richard Nixon is raising a toast to him like that story is just like. How am I supposed to feel about this? It feels like winners, tanks, and there is war in this military conflict than on its more actionable, can cover it yeah when I did see nazi, germany are of a holocaust. Was this thing that made it must cover, but I think it was that this is a threat to the end so when you were a war with them. This is that's what makes a cover one if the holocaust was happen

just inside a country the size of germany or- and if it didn't expanding on poland, It would be like a footnote. He was in many ways a footnote like many of the early steps toward it was like the debating cover it's just like alright, they're they're being oppressive toward their own people. Okay, especially given some of the. Maybe if you negotiate certain peace treaty so the union? I would like you to visit the pacifist imperative. boy. Sorry, santa. So we say every time you master it after you done you, I'm sorry about that. All now see. I hate it when you don't yes, and because it leaves me in a hole I dug for myself. And I stood there. The whole is: is it my sadness.

Whom you ve been reading this book? I'm u ten years mentally within two years, as you spend with time with it. What does now almost three We have here s, Is it still you much longer? Like you said, your family it in many ways. This is a book. You've been writing her life. I think that's fair, that all my works been leading to this yeah. It's certainly the most, in my opinion, the most important thing I've done. What stands out to you about Holodomor? What moments, what what aspects of human nature, how do I dont know? I think that story is that I don't have the story, but I mean like that. Incidents is I mean I was familiar with it before and so I cannot knew about it. You know in part thanks the north korean work and coming from ukraine the thing that was also kind of inside

in about it, is that they were taking all this grain using it even to feed the russian people there are selling for export for hard currency. I think what the take away there and I think again, this is something westerners and especially the americans don't appreciate. They think that evil often has like a logic to it right and that's like. Why would it likes because it makes no sense to them like why would they kill their own people? Therefore, it pride in happened right there that is that thing that they, they really think like? Okay, they can understand. You know country, a country congress, country b and you slaughter a bunch of people, country b as a means of conquest, like that kind of makes sense that they know that thing but like, Why you starving all these people with what are you getting out of it that doesn't make sense to them? And because this makes sense this kind of like well, it's pride more this

where then, I'm hearing and a lot of times, there's not it's just like evil for the sake of power, and, We don't really have that. Certainly were near that scale I never have, and certainly you know since it says america has been a thing- I mean it, it's it's it's and the fact that this is like the thirties. You know what I mean this isn't that long ago Oh, I think also the the narrative in some ways is how Geena technology is also something that kind of people have mixed feelings about. I think, like I've said this before, and this is something I really. The very strongly the ability of information to be captured and spread easily is such an effective tool in exposing the humanity at its worst, because there is one thing: if I sit here and tell you what-

I saw these villages, it's nothing. I sat down and showed your youtube, and in a year I don't know what it's like to look at the If someone who's thinking about kill eating their own kids, have you and you see the face? you know it's not something some c, I it if it will haunt you forever. Just looking at the door mechanisms that made all of this happened. So this is not just one guy stolen having policy there's a whole system, Any one of its just a system of fear, but how implement the system of fear. Well, a giant bureaucracy of fear yeah, so what he implemented with the great terror is that signal in the thirties? In the late thirties, as it is throughout the thirties, but yeah like it starts in the mid to late thirties. Basically, you know communism is based on the common good and the public good and anything private which was bourgeois.

was a problem when they were started out with a revolution. Came there to revolution. They wanted to recreate society entirely and that included like ok, let's make it so If everyone eats in the cafeteria, so there eating by themselves less design building several the sheer bathrooms, like their whole plan, to have eliminate any kind of concept of privacy at all. They all said this bizarre kind of radical idea of, like attacking shame. So many of these before the nineteen, seventeen people were also very vote for like free love, because the idea of having this private bond between husband or wife, was also bourgeois and an old fashioned and in a word, then society future that changed relatively quickly, but they were too these things that raising kids, community and soda suffered suffers Stalin, If you- and I are friends, we have a bond, that's a threat to him the families, a threat

the any kind of organizations a threat, because it's a power centre that is not between a relation- Can you at him now your voice with somebody else, so he systemic lee, where through that whole society, and you know it became there are certain things I became a crime. Then it became a crime to be a spouse of the enemy If the people now right away eyes, a child become an orphan, because my dad was the name of the people. My mom is married to any of the people. Now I don't have parents they get arrested or or execute or whatever, but now I I have nowhere to go, but I can't go to my friend's house because their family doesn't want to take in a child the army, the people and you had this culture, where everyone was very much encouraged to turn people in and if you turns, if you're arrested in and tortured you're like okay, who are you

complexes, and now you ve got a name names, people you knew, and then it becomes this whole chain, and it's like how am I going to protest my innocence if lex just said, you know, I the work of Michael and were working were trots gifts and which plotting with was stolen. Lex testify to this. He signed a confession. What am I supposed to do now right so it worked its way in a most viral fashion through the whole society. There is amazing moment where these poor people peasants, because obviously the powerless are often going to be caught in the web. They are going to jail for being trotskyites atr and they have to ask themselves what attract tourists like they need. we trotzky was, and the thing other thing is ethnicity was a problem right. You were an ethnicity, you have more power with others. worse is that if this city than you have with this kind of broader soviet culture, so he would just deport entire populations from their ancestral lance other power

aid is by the population around, but also to break that link between the peoples, and their lands, there was this nineteen, thirty, seven and cavity order against polish people. Worship like if you I had come from poland or how to win at just this whole list, and basically people are being arrested, cause they had a polish last names and I think it was a million people were killed. astronomical number. So there was this anything that was a bond was a threat to him and he went stem italy. So after he had all these kind of executions of people who are like lenin, people the old bolsheviks. Then he went after he started arresting the secret police. You know he rested all the cops he rested on the judges and all these prisoners got to see the judges who yelled at them for being counter revolutionary and spies. Now they were in the jails. If you were a foreigner, if there was a huge push from the soviet union,

toward african americans rikers there like look, you were living in a racist country. Here we have no Rachel inequality come come, live here, a bunch of them went and they were all vanished, You know anyone who knew information about the outside world if you're a foreigner of Andre bat, a babel. I forget his first name. He had a french writer. He was friends with he was arrested in shock as he's a spy because your friends have malraux, and that means, if you know a foreigner you're a spy speaking esperanto became a. I'm having a pen pals literally anything that was some kind of chain between yourself and someone else, was a threat and was grey as for the rest, it was the rushes with joke. about how relieved they would be if someone not, You draw the middle the night to tell your house was on fire because it wasn't. There gave me the coming to arrest. You then, of course, more The accusations probably were completely false.

So not only could you not do all of those things you were also a victim of just then late to work became a fellow and also not doing your job became a felony cause now you're taking the food or product away from the people and you're supposed be there working for the people, This is one story which you know I was doing the audio book, and this is like I still trying to get through their crying nineteen twenty. They were a bunch of kids in moscow where pickpockets aged between asia, Levin and fifteen, they round them up and they are right point out your accomplices and they take em in the trams and you have to point out people, then they would take them back to the this. The seller beat the crap out of these children and then they take them out again and if they didn't point at anybody, they beat them they're like alright, so they just start pointing at random and the thing that was really sick about this story. If that wasn't sick enough, is that the screams that the other criminals, the adult hardened criminals, had to hear from these children as they realized they were being taken back to the to the seller?

it was just the horrifying and they so they tortured people there. It confessions out of people. Yes at scale, oh yeah, I mean it in the dark aspect to this. As it's all, it's like this weird. It's it's a bureaucracy of torture. Yes, so like it's not like there there's, what is it the torturer is afraid of like does it so? The and become the prisoner. Rightly has then it's like. Oh you couldn't get a confession. Out of him. Are you in any way the piano now as well, and the thing that was even crazier is that a lot of these interrogators were frustrated because they're like look. we both know. You're innocent, just sign this confessed

to make my life easier, they knew it was crap stolen, joked about stolen joked. About this. This is one of his little jokes. There was a kid who was arrested and he was said. Oh, it was forced to say you wrote Eugenio nagging, which is a play, goes that play was by Pushkin and they torture by torture, tortured him and his parents are working on the street and they run into secret police indigo. Congratulations and they go for what you got. Your son wrote eugene onegin, like he admitted to at last night. Like you, it's just like that. it get you to say anything and what else was really really sick, which they understood is it they lowered the death penalty for kids? I think see the fourteen or twelve around without my head and what Stalin's head of the sea Police did is when you were interrogating someone they would you either had to have some of your family member of that that we members for possessions on the desk or a copy of the decree that saying that you know that that that they can go after

family and the amount of people who had confessed to anything when they saw their family was in danger and they knew this was in a bluff. Astronaut astronomical. Then it becomes a chain because if you confess- and I have your confession- hard is it to get your neighbor woody, make of the four time. For me, the time the and gave it was about the head of a d deep, I barrier very idea, I have. I have a death warrant signed by him hanging in my kitchen, that I acquired. He one of the most evil people ever lived. The thing that americans don't appreciate is the how clever some of this sadism is. So there was one actress I think he took her back to this house. and he asked her to he tried to get her to sleep with him. Then he promised her that if she did her father and either her husband or her grandfather which, when it was this, can be released from jail while they were already dead

that point. He had them executed there still further the bodies of the women he murdered on the grounds of his dodge. It's an embassy now and his style into cars. At one point stolen, there's a picture of Stalin's daughter in his lap. You know sister and she was at his house one day installing if you could get out of there immediately? So he like a good bureaucrat. He had a lie. He the list of all his sexual partners. Its though sealed with him at his bodyguard, had this list so just to clarify. How he had a daughter parisian that did this whole joy, the mechanism of force confessions. Yes, he was part of europe the gulags videos and the head of the glass be as part of this giant his famous quote was show me. The man and I'll show you the crime, but on top of that we are describing, is he was also related or not, was also mass rapist, yes and there is some dispute. Rather, he went after kids with his rapes, but this plenty of adults

in that were targets for this just another little joke about him about hostile and is looking for his pipe and he can't finds it calls barrier, Beria, Endlich, ok, I can find this pipe. in the afternoon. He calls Barry again he's like oh, I found the pipe he goes but become stolen. We've got four people to confess to still fit already, so you have to laugh, but then you think about the nature of of how it operates it. Well, there's also the fact that this kind of person was allowed to run. I suppose it's all different. Eyes of evil and rape was just the part of the story, his on personal willingness to are see torture and commit torture himself and rape But it's also what happens when you are in a country which has no rights of any kind and by the way mention that she get your book. and audit was audible. Coming it's a couple weeks savvy out shortly

give me the great honor of voicing this man? That's for the promo for the promo, yet the excellent. I appreciate that for a moment. Actually, it was really difficult, really yeah. It was just a sentence I understand I understand, because it takes you to that place. Oh yeah cause he told her scream. If you want doesn't matter- and he is right- they got the thing he wasn't bluffing you could screamer, he had these women could scream there. no one's gonna come help him. He would driver on moscow at night in his limo. Looking for victims, Somehow meeting those words is tough, I'm sure as stuff, because this, where we came from do not I mean this isn't just like some kind of the tolkien villain, but it also self possession

see myself being someone there machine somewhere like somehow, they put me right there, ike, as is it, is a like there. Any cargan. That machine is committing evil. Yes, that's the dark thing. I think that the higher the the high yard to the top, the closer to the top the more. Ability. You have to stop it, but Less the more freedom you have to stop it, I suppose, to appoint air, but like the little things so barrier had the freedom to commit rape or not too, and so he chose

chooses to sort of increase the amount of evil he's putting out into the world, but then yet the counterbalance that as as dark as this calculus is, after Stalin dies like that week. They start making the gulags shrink, they start pulling back on the concentrate the labour camps. So did I mean to say that is a big plus His side, like you, start liberating having this mass amnesty and freeing people from work camps that that's not minor thing. So it's crazy like it's like I'm, not I'm, not saint Peter right. I do. I don't know what the I've done. I think he's a good person, but kind of insane that someone can do things that everyone listening to this would regard as pure evil. at the same time. This guy also when the time came, saved tens of thousands of lives, so

in the citizens, Stalin as a kind of cancer, the permeates all yes I'll, always soviet mines and wants is gone. He almost there, wake up wait a minute what the fuck was a part of. at an khrushchev in it was a fifty six when he gave a secret speech I closed doors and he's just like all. His criticism of Stalin was true. This is complete our marxism. He tried to salvage the system. This is not what marxism is about. We can't have a personality cult. Stalin killed all these top generals and when hitler turned, you betrayed the pact and invaded stalin, I believe his buddy Hitler was going to do this and as a result of this, we lost a lot of territory and lives. This is not a military genius. This was stolen being an idiot or an a moron whatever you do. Whatever terms when a b. So you know the ad did there, but the thing is Khrushchev also was a butcher, yet a lot of blood in his hands. You don't become. You know the thick sound seat without having overlooked a lot of

murder and chaos. So is it search. That's why it's called subtitles books, a tale of good and evil. there's so much malevolence to go round. We thinks was going to stones, mind in the toys in the thirties. Like did he directly. like allow himself to acknowledge the reality of the suffering. He is causing a good. Is it take to be that human? I am almost interested to extract lessons from this for leaders of today, like how hard as it is it stolen his evil. Or can you just delude yourself gradually into you don't have a sense of the effect of your policies in the populace? but you're, not deluding yourself, because you have around you and entire government of people telling you twenty five.

Seven, how great you are! How, thankfully, are for You how awesome you are you're the best so that certainly gonna play to an ivo. I thus myself, that question is well like do these people believe that bullshit and at us- and I think receipts are went away, ceausescu, whose whether for women on the cover when she's been taken away to be executed in nineteen. Eighty nine she's yelling at the soldiers have could you I raised you like a mother, so she at least believed her own bullshit, with Stalin. He was obviously extremely intelligent. I think it's kind of easy for us the kind of psychology eyes and say he's a sociopath he's in our cities. This is that by at a certain point like if your and surrounded by a culture dedicated to go, fine, you and everyone you meet is so happy see you and all a guide. All your pronouncements are so good, and if you know what, if some

if you make a decision, that's wrong. The people around you, it's their job, to tell you why? It's not your fault, it's the fault of the wreckers or it's the fault of you. Hitler or whoever it is the kulaks he addison, point the human mind wants to believe how great it is, such a summit that vaunted position. But he had his love. There was this one funny. I use the word loosely quote when hitler invades russia and he couldn't believe it and he's just missing in action. Four days has how could it tray me. We had a deal birds of a feather and he had this What about like? We ve taken Lenin's legacy and shit out our asses, I think, is very aware that that's no question He was aware that, in terms of being a last suffer or a thinker he wasn't on his level right. So that was sure played a lot into his psychology, though he never quite lived up to the like everything. He try.

I'd. I mean there's some sensitive the cultivation that this idea was a failure- the way he respond to the economic policy being a failure, to lean in and basically torture. Anyone who says it's a failure and we'll down on the policy that so something about, but it wasn't a failure. It broke. The ukrainians needle he believed early on, that's what it turned into you don't think in the very early days there was a thought, the collectivization The right mechanism, by which to la enact, communism in the night. I think his goal was to break their spirit and getting them fed with secondary right and given the fact that they stop complaining because they're dead, he got what he wanted.

a compliant population. I mean that's for the interesting I didn't I want this agreement. There is about because, if thousands from the beginning, does a different level of evil. I think was clearly the so his hit. What like a centrally when he broke with lending cause. You wanted socialism, one country right, those his vision, right, and he was also very aware that what became soviet union was extremely diverse versus gigantic countries that their country on earth is not always gigantic. You had all these p both these nationalities within it that have had it thorkel and Emily and their their knock out of loyalty to Moscow he's a georgian himself. This is always a big problem, so that was, but he wanted to do it How is the homogenized and have them be standardized and I dont see How you do that without either massive re education, which is only gonna go so far or really just crushing people's spirits.

so like of forced homogeneity yeah and the other big thing, a big element of soviet culture. and the soviet mythology? I mean he called his name. Was his changed his name to Stalin? It came to pronounce pronounces georgia named lucas, really or something like that. It means man, Steel, so a large part of the still remains in russian culture. To this day I see in my family to and unlike other russians, I know there is this pride in ruthlessness and this kind of, like I'm so tough like nothing's, going to back me like you we're gonna suffer, but it's for a greater. For the long term, and not to be kind of sentimental or squeamish about things like that was a big part of it. Don't take that away? me too Michael. What are taken everything every am I wrong I admire not not stolen but that kind of hardness, I look forward to myself. Theirs

do a stolen, but not to the extent that like if some like, for example like if you see someone suffering and death, it as a mechanism to get you change. Your opinion you're, like they're, not going to get to me like that, is very much part of the russian psychology right or at least at that time. Yes, I think, still largely no Can we be manipulated by someone else? Is suffering a weakness that kind of thing that thing? That's really part of it to this day I do not know how much of his character, how much of it is reality, sure sure. I remember I knew that I knew a someone who's payment, his don't say we're russian and they had this big fight. She took off the ring right and she's like and he's like. That's it and just like the way he he told the story to me, she's like what he want me to say

Oh, don't leave me baby. I can't live without you like that nasty cruelty. Well, maybe I know I know you're sick, If there's a russian thing. This is this: is the people thing? I don't think I an american thing, I think, there's all kinds of flavors and their different by region of way that people are to each other sure that our maritime in america, Jersey is different than texas is different in California. Don't think of americans are higher trust more hi in society. Then russia, even today the higher trust, listen, I'm not going to say. First of all, I have a very complex feelings about should today, I don't like right a bit like a genuine for the world's nowadays. I think it's a complex psychological, dynamic of wood. Trusting means, I think, russians are generally less front.

the, but have more intimate friendship. Yes, that's true! So as this is a different such different, it just one is more trust it. This, which is more trust americans, but then this would define trusting different people get okay and I'll give example, if someone's having a party in america and people come over yeah. Okay, that's fine everyone's welcome. If it's in russia, it's like who who who's? That, would you bring this much more of a like levy. Be sure, that's ok! This person's here I may be, is there parties I had I have never been a party and you don't come to mind That is very sad love, but I love you should have showed by showing up to this I'm a high hide from the world that I'm afraid of social interaction lay on the ground instead and feel sorry for myself, it's that bad santa. It said santa

I can serve. I can serve my emotional energy towards this. One day of the year intends Please spread my joy, alright speaking of which you tell a christmas story in the book. Are you spoiling that chapter? It's called diehard. Alright. Where am I going to spoil the guy really good? I was very after that chapter, why? I think it's just because the ending that's a christmas story is just like. I know everyone reading is going to go. Google it'd be like he kept the scampi real, but it was real that it was like christmas yesterday, and I mean that that this has to do with the bigger picture. We don't have to do the reveal, but the bigger picture of their there was an iron curtain and it was coming down in complex ways How'd, you define iron curtain. That is, it Is this a set of ideologies instead of countries united by an ideology and a set of countries? You know by different ideology damn There's a curtain divided them

eventually came down. So how would you describe how it came down? It came. I that I can never remember ever ever. Remember if this was Hemingway. Noah's hemingway is mark twain. Now a cat came down to ways gradually then suddenly, You the thing with the iron curtain and the warsaw pact: these were of nations with you, no one Under communism, they were all almost all under sway of moscow. So if we're going to make big changes. Moscow had to prove it. It was in ninety in there in the fifties when hungary decided to repel or not reveal liberalized- and they even state, were thinking of leaving the warsaw pact and the russian send in the tanks, and you had the development of what was called the version of doctrine, which was the idea that,

It is the duty of all the warsaw pact nations. If another cup three tries to end. This is Sixty eight in the prague spring czechoslovakia, If a nation wants to leave socialism is in camera those socialist nations doing to do whatever sorry extra. There isn't a counter revolution said: we were very much your maskos thumb and one of the big. why is it changed was one man, then that was mikhail gorbachev and he was the first russian leader to be born after the actual revolution. He grew up in his grand other- was arrested for being a trotskyite and other one you know was arrested for this or that he saw his village starve as a result of Stalin. So, even though, He was a very committed communist. He also was very and increased

we skeptical of authoritarianism and you know in poland, for example, you had the solidarity movement and labour union movement and the government did know it too. you they're getting a lot of support from the peoples they had strikes that than the gdansk shipyard was. It was one when we started and basically mascots hold them, Either you crack down a crackdown on you, and like a right and they declared martial law. They rested, leaders put them away, but then, when which of you know, was in charge there. in a gun to their back, and it was the communists themselves who were like you know what this is really funny moment where lech walesa meat with Margaret thatcher and she's he's telling her what solidarity the movement wants, and she had been meeting with the polish government is well and she's, like look like tell them like what list as they they have you tried days. They wanted. The government had heard tell them that we won negotiate and workaday nachos array.

EL, the government: what is that you're asking for and just point of the ceiling, Is that all you are, our meetings are bugged anyway, but they then had the freedom, because they knew that gorbachev and forcing them to drive solidarity underground. So they had the idea of like. Let's worked together with these people and as a result, this you know poland, liberalized and freed itself. Fairly easily and with a minimum of bloodshed and eighty nine and it is there, was this whole You meant for the vietnam war was something called domino theory which is, if you use yet now. then you're going to lose, allows the english cambodia one by one, the country's gonna, turn calmness the dominoes, but people rise. The reverse is true because after poland liberalized than you have hungary than you have you no czechoslovakia? They then you know that you had east germany in the fall of the berlin also it's a great thing, because, as this is happening,

the people are looking around and there like way. But like that's, that's, that's it like This is gonna, be a trick and it wasn't it. So one of my favorite books, which was a big inspiration for this one, was by my favorite historian. I apologize to victor Patricia a day of patricia north herman. My second and third, there tied but victis Sebastian wrote a book called revolution. Ninety nine- and he just talk but that year and how all these countries, one f, another liberalized and it's just such a view and nodded them thought this was possible. My money favorite. Favorite moments in this book is helmut kohl, who was the headed west europe he's in warsaw, lech walesa discussing, berlin wall at lech walesa, like I don't think it's getting and for like another, you know few years and at home, Whole lapse in his face and he goes look. You're young

this is and how things work like this is going to take some doing, it fell the next day. And held the call literally says about the wrong party, and he got an appeal and got out of warsaw, so there why this book has a broader message than the actual stories of these incidents. Is that as these wonderful things are happening. The unit so consensus at the time? Is it's never gonna happen or if it does hat gonna happen, it's gonna happen only through an enormous amount of carnage and blood, and when it than ever and like all was inevitable, you didn't say was there the time you only said as an anvil after the fact and the other that I was really brought me. A lot of joy is: there are so many moments of men, the guns saying we're not shooting anyone, because they wanted several timid squares, They wanted it in? You know east berlin they wanted it in romania.

they wanted in moscow, and these strong, tough trade men with guns were like no we're, not shooting the civilians and then everything else was history. Yeah. Just as surprising as the mass violence committed by police and the army on its own citizenry equal support? in his when they choose not to yeah. Somehow yeah, and what is that? What how do you expect in energy. Nine. How do you explain this progress? that happened so suddenly her, how do you explain that in the beginning of the twentieth century So much revolution happened that created communism and how do you explain then the collapse of that across so many nations? At the same time, I think a large part of it had to do with the closer and-

interconnections between people and gorbachev often thatcher and grow, which often reagan because both of them visited red square and get up in the years before it is these? Are enemies, you know they want to invade. They want to kill us. The americans thought this about the russians. The russians thought this about the americans. Obviously not so much. The british and. They got on really well Gorbachev came to checkers, which is the prime minister's countryside estate, that's your set him down and she's lecturing him about human rights issues. Lecturing about economics is a victim of this and that and then she's lecturing him about. Why he's in eating, while he's yelling at her- and he goes mrs Thatcher Like I know, you have a lot of strong opinions, I do too. I haven't been sent here to recruit you. The cup his party and she started laughing right away. There was such a hence in the air of we- can do better risk?

All this money on missiles were spending all this money on the military is expensive and for what we you'll have to be looking at each other as enemies we can try to together to kind of, at the very least, lower the the the the volume and then the the heat. How much credit do you give to gorbachev the man, some meaning? How much power does a single individual? Have, I I couldn't give him more credit? I had it sweet last year. Wasted, who do you think is the grace person alive right now in my answer by far would be gorbachev than he died on nobody who is right now, but it's just funny. because gorbachev also had a tweet but he was He said that would be a good now I wish I viewed gorbachev and asked them that the famous question of what would you like best about them like a mouse took the transition after suing fell to russia, and yeltsin.

Was not a smooth one by any means. You know, as I see it, in the bud get selected lived happily ever after new, but my point broader point: is you take the winds when you can get them? People now had access to passports. They do have have god they can lead the country they are food they had. Access to. Information is somewhat. Answered. But it's really nothing like it was under the the union, and they do have to live in this kind of constant fear. Had opportunities. It is such a step forward with this one great moment an aggregate there's a super borsier. Soon became president of russia and he's also mayor of Moscow, one point or the equivalent of mayor. and he came here to visit nasa on in the in the commission one of the other, and while he was there, he went to visit a supermarket, it was a randall's. Then I think it's a food town. Now it still exists. I'm going to go there, I'm going to start bawling and as he's looking around like he had never seen so much food and they

food that, like even wealthy people, russia to have access to, and this picture just like this, like with, and the scene. That really was pointed to me is on his flight back he's sitting there, Play like this and he's like they had to lie to the people, because if they knew they wouldn't have been able to get away with it, and that's the moment worth just like this wasn't like skewed propaganda. You know this like they knew was the lie from a to z and he was just like wholly crap, just like, and you can imagine him on that plane, his brain reprogramming, because if you're taught, since you were a kid He was not. He was an older man. He's no dummy, you think. Ok, the americans are starving and poor and their lynching people every day, and then you go to a supermarket the most banal place on earth and you see lay.

I think when the articles said like they couldn't believe how big the onions, where some like that and you're seeing this and you seeing these like janitors school teachers. These are dignitaries and their dreams, People to people wherever they want and you're just like I like you, It's like the quiver and having a stroke. I do That is why I was powerful things is the bushy negotiator as the guy in terms of drawing a distinction between the two systems yeah here. You can have a technology you can show of technologies on, but you can kind of stuff right off technologies like ok, that's the mechanism of the devil, but when you look at just fruit and vegetables and might very big fruit and vegetables and night and fruit in particular like certain kinds of food. There is not available in russia is yeah that really shows wait. A minute yeah.

It's interesting like when you are all doing you have to face. but the reality data. Will you believe to be true that your whole life has been based, on a set of lies and your stuff, not not mistakes, not like a little bit like blatant, lies from top to bottom start. To finish that I dont know what that's like. how much you knew. You start the book. I think you said the book with rand. Yes, yes, yes, as one does. So before the revolution is born in the in in russia as you witness the revolution and moved to united states the twenty money sixty six seventy choices. I remember legumes yesterday anyway, she are you write that she spent a lot of her life, trying to convince america's in the world that the negative effects of two solitary government just

or maybe using her as an example, but also this question: can we draw a distinction between Authoritarian regimes and communism is it possible to steal man the case that now all implementation of socialism and communism would lead the atrocities we see in the soviet union, in china, under my leg you in studying all of this? How much blamed you put on the Ideologies unmarked the ideologies verses particular leaders and dictators. Well, you have to blame. Leaders a lot because they had different leaders in different countries, were different from each other. Do check who took over czechoslovakia, and he tried to this socialism, with a human face in the prague spring of nineteen sixty eight he was alright. We gotta do away with this thor terrorism. We gotta have more free speech. He was thinking introducing elements of democracy. Now then, the russian sent in the tanks, but the

point is. He certainly was someone who was like a right this. This has got to stop. This is just absolutely crazy. Khrushchev and stolen were not the same animal at all, so I think the problem with communism in the marxist sense is that europe, going to have an introduce an element of authoritarianism simply because you can't have economic planning, if I don't have it I smell ism. I dont know hot prices. What is be knowing as a consumer or a producer, what should be produced or what it had there's a shortage of as prices increase. That's sick there. We have a short cheers: prices decrease. That means that there is a surplus here, but if I'm set the price. I dont really have no, how much we don't need to produce it. If I compare to court as compared to choose as compared to santa costumes, so that is a big problem. The other issue is, if you have one agency, the governor,

having a monopoly on, let suppose the news like you were talking to with twitter, It's going be really hard to have any kind of objective discourse, because everyone is gonna be worse, for the same organisation. That is going to cause a problem terms having a feedback mess mechanism. Even the best scenario in terms of this problem is it a problem and when you have a monopoly with but a government is, I think people are very familiar with, but the problems happened with monopoly. This lack of accountability abuse. Wishes are faceless and no one's to blame, but you know, and yet everyone can. It suffers as a consequence, so it doesn't necessarily have to be as it were tearing as stalinism, but you can't have it by government, which is a thing, ready by its nature, be this pervasive without it long about of of oppression at saint thing with, even if you just have like with your socialist healthcare,

you're going to have to make it a legal for doctors to practice privately you're gonna have to rationing so and so forth. Now that might be a price that people are willing to pay, because you can't have infinite de on healthcare right, so something's gonna have to give where's that there is an element of authoritarian there and people are company with that, and I cannot my head around it. but if you're going to have one, innovation running literally everything in society. I don't see how Do that and have any a measure of liberalism. Why do you think I ran had some trouble telling people the danger of soviet stalinism. Well, I think more pertinent question, Why did Emma goldman and alexander workmen have such problems they were hard cora. These are anarchists yeah there but also on the cover they were deported

from the u S, Jaeger hoover saw them off at Ellis island. They were sent to russia, they were what does revolutionaries, they had no shortage, advocating violence when necessary and when they went there they were just like. This is a complete nightmare. They both individually had meetings with lenin complaining about political prison complain about lack of free speech. She told them. You know this is a revolutionary time. To do that later and when they both left day, she wrote a job. Her memoir was split. The two books, my dear Russia referred this list. When russia, he wrote the bolshevik myth and she was in england, and she gave a speech as she just like. If you guys think this is for the workers, The biggest live ever heard like their oppressing the workers, like no capless as ever imagined and as she described it like people just shifting their sheet cease their interrupting her. and she when she opened her talk, she had a standing ovation and when she was and you could hear- pin drop They don't want to hear it, because this was this

and eugene life, sucks that later this was like the guinea pig theory of the russian people like, experiment on them over there. If it were great we're right if it's wrong, it's their problem and sure these animals squeal, but their beneath us and, of course, to get a mix of noise. But you know this is a noble experiment, but their experimenting on a country, several countries I think an ideology like this which appeals to intellectuals, because you know if it works or if its implemented, they are the ones who are gods in effect in society that their status cannot be higher. They really want this to work like that want a society where they are the new aristocracy that the most important people and their criticisms of america if they had a binary worldview? If America's bad and this the opposite of america- that by definition it's good and the the other binary that they bought into his ear the nazis and the fascists hate the communists and the communists? True to up to a point hated the

the fascists and the nazis. Okay. Well, if hitler is evil, so this guy's against hitler were with him. So that's an argument that still made in in a know, gas schools growing. When you talk about world war, two with they're like we've seen with Stalin, and they don't really talk about Stalin being a bad guy, but it's like you know. We worked with the the fight. Hitler's hitler was a unique evil. Now that is certainly true, that hitler's unique evil, but that doesn't mean or even imply that Stalin. Somehow an angel or a saint. Using some of the lessons of his share forgotten here in our in we numb modern political discourse that are important to remember. I so triggered cause. I was in the supermarket and there was a company that selling russian ice cream because it meets these high level soviet standards, and I'm just thinking you think this is some kind of joke. You think this is Gonna kitty punch line that you had decades of people who were taught school turn their parents into the police if they, hoarding grain, even if

Less than their lives, where it was a crime to be married someone who is the enemy, the state where you had torture? the norm where people institutionalized because they are politically disadvantageous in their called insane like this is just like, like all this hammered. Sickles is cool. Wacky symbol lick the amount of blood. Under the symbol was just enormous and and so yeah, I think the lesson has very much been forgot. How did those contests? It was fine? Okay, I'm a baskin, robbins guy to be honest, but when Is this some great work? Best commas doesn't have an? U soviet flavors. Now knows that those doug jokes duck. jokes ominous of published a book of jokes. Coming out in a grocery store near you. Ok,

What was the hardest part about ratings book? in two years: writing it. So I write books for celebrities, as co authoring them, I did a kind like method. Acting I try to get into their head as much as possible to kind of speaking their voice. and when you're dealing with children being tortured, harmed, starved and you're, trying to empathize with the characters it's it's hard to take the other big part I had like sing. Earlier is just. I was just very very concerned that I told this story. Indebted did justice because think this is something that is aids. I don't understand- and I'm kind of angry about it that fallen on me you tell this story the cynicism, minor didn't that happened some random town and pick a state. This is half the world for.

Seventy eighty years and the fact that its this is the eighties since we were, I mean unite old enough to remember the eighties. There's show I Remember the eightys, the fact that all these things I've just kind of we have this collect the measure. If an avian amnesia think a lot of stuff, even I'd like was not known even at the time or was kind of obscured, and this is I remember I was at the blaze. Witches network running glenn back in their conservatives and I have a lot of fun. There and I'm just sitting there and then yes, sometimes dave you're off. They had their like obeisances communist them like okay, okay by its a communist. But unlike we talk so much about slavery the civil war, the atrocities we took, our world war two and the holocaust and like how no one talking about this, and this was- can very easily be portrayed as like conservatism, zig victory, cause reagan at that you were so instrumental in in putting this to a safe landing, and I'm like how is no

telling a story, and then one day my brain is like you know you write books for a living, he's gonna your job and election, right, but I still do not. I still. I gotta tell you I'm kind, confused! That. I'm the one who has to do this because this should be. They should be made of the sugar looks like this model to follow dennis also oh such recent history yeah, but it also kind. makes you realize that there might be other fights for address going on right now, was that we don't know about so you wrote about north korea and IRAN, to a degree that could possibly be fights there for progress, but there could be they could be boiling up in china that could be blowing up battles for progress

in other parts of the world, russia that could be and in america in america- and these are all different kind of battles for visas and now sometimes. I think that they are in all we somehow tacit tend to criticise these battles will progress. They go if it's them left to call it like woke ism or whatever will pick extreme events of it and show how silly ridiculous it is realising it not acknowledging that there is a a more civil battle going on underneath for actual foreign for respecting human, dignity from all four people fireworks alive in the same way and to call anybody who questions mainstream narratives conspiracy theories were dismissed him immediately and thereby, ultimately fighting for progress to be

well, who criticize falcon everybody else, I dunno. If they're, I think they want institutions that serve the public they're fighting for progress too, and we tend to dismiss them. We, like each side, tends to caricature the other arm, but the the battle for progress is happening, and I I guess that's what your desk four message with the white pill right. Is that their there's progress being made some? How we're off making progress here, I think more. The hopeful message is that it's not possible that we have to lose like. If someone tells you the straight face, you can't win. The enemy is to impressive. strong, unlike what are you talking about, we do I may look this. Was this the union and it happened. You know relatively quickly and and relatively peacefully as a main, again and again

and because the hanukkah and east germany was like. Oh, I just going to I'm just going to vacate my seat. He was like send in the tanks and the military guy said. No, so they wanted. There are plenty of people who want to blood and would have been happy to have. It says you maybe not for the soviet union than the first the iron curtain is, is a great leap of progress in the twentieth century. I don't see how anyone can argue against that point. With a straight face. So that gives you hope that we, that we, if humanity were able to do that. Yes, and at the same time, we were told at the time give it up be realistic utopian to think this is going anywhere? Maybe in a hundred years look there's a recent chekhov was unstarched track because

the idea, is even the far future you're going to have america and you're going to have the soviet union like this is the reality. It was called real politic that we're going to have detente, because it's you know it's just province stalemate. We had the vietnam war, we got our asses, kick russia I go anywhere america, not going anywhere we've gotta, learn to live each other blah blah blah and Reagan said you don't want wanna, hear mia strategy for the cold war. Some people might say it's simple or even simplistic, here. It is we when they lose and the people who one where the russian people and the ukrainian people and the lithuanian people and the polish people and the romanian people, especially in the hungarian people and in its it's just just There are so many moments of great joy that you know just tears coming down my face because your ears got your like in prague.

when do check who again, who try to liberalize nineteen sixty eight and then when they send the tanks they deport him to slovakia somewhere decent forced or job like her peers in their big square is as waving from the balcony like this ghost from twenty years. Prior being like look, you know that spirit of sixty eight still alive here in czechoslovakia it was like a matter of weeks. The entire gum resigned and then they liberalized? This is just so many things about just overnight, just change for the profound better and people are so committed to me. you sure you don't have hope, and if things go better or does it really matter? Custom broader picture never gets better and there is lots of data to the contrary. Where that's happened before, and this isn't some magical far we place. This is the opposite of magical fahrway place its eastern europe and to me, I think one such narrative that

People assume will always be true. two degree. Wars between like an american politics, is extreme levels division, seems to me like that too, we can overcome, said The division in american politics that seems to be counterproductive. I think that can be overcome and I think the the division in geopolitics, currently with russia, china and the united states, particularly china and the united states can be overcome that requires great leadership that that govern, as is the populace, to the better injures of their nature. I gave hope for that, People have become really cynical on social media and elsewhere. In the way they talk, the liberals are destroying this country the conservatives are destroying the country. This kind of

language is becoming more and more popular. I think. Thus, I have hope that thus temporary Lee says this. My white pill. I dunno, if you have that kind of hope for like what does hope look like for you in American politics forget to make about this: american, the nation, the country, the people. My hope, Which I dont think is an unrealistic one. Is that The next generation has a better life. Then you and I have had in this country and I think, anyone who thinks that america is over or is one precedent, a from being destroyed? Cannot

good conscience, call themselves a patriot, because if you think America is so weak that it takes a binding or a trump, too irreverent coordinate obama to radically destroy it. There is already a rap ere. I think that's just absolutely ridiculous. If you look with this country has survived the great depression, world war to the civil war. The I mean, my god, so we ve been through worse before It wasn't always easy, certainly not, but I am I it's so hard for me as someone who's a hope of person, not by me each? I'm not. You know Michael kindness it has worked for random house, or at least he does. Last time I talked to him, I look at even like this thing is. When you speak positively, it sounds corny that screwed up our cynical glossy. My twitter.

Oh you're verified now that's good, but even like something at sea you can go and at sea a pay for dollar forever vacation. I earned it it's an opportunity independent artists, to create something special and cool. And I've bought a lot of stuff from them. That, in and of itself is something that's pretty awesome, there's so much. I I'm into shaving soaps, right, of course, you're. If it's, if the why is there are dozens of artisans every day when you have a shave, it brings you some joy way. There's just so many things that are Wonderful- and I know this people's listen to this robin their eyes, how can you talk about shaving serbs when my daughter, or when my wife or when blah blah blah and I'm not disparaging region. Missing what you regarding as a problem, my point is hope means the belief That is not at all a certainty that this problem will,

insurmountable. That's all it means woody look forward to an in twenty three. Since this is a holiday special honestly like if I may, I look forward to a lot of young people, realizing. That they still have lots of opportunity in this country and taking control of their own selves and realizing they can be a better person tomorrow than they are today that the entirety of there Energy is not a function of a culture which

they may not identify or government which they might not identify with or like or or think, is, is deplorable and realize. You know what I have it in me to improve and find joy and happiness, and also the fact that that is so compelling and contagious. That is what I would want in a twenty twenty three and also for new york to get nuked, so those two things could be accomplished. Can I go back and switch the order cause? I think new york, one. The jokes, the jokes and one day, friends, if you, while you were car, nothing believing yourself, you took a knook new york. Now you too, can spend your days dry. Sing up grown men, a single party santa outfit and putting on lipstick and having hours upon hours of conversation with each other

loving every second. Thank you for it. this really really important book, please by the white pill, algebra elevator Thanks for listening to this conversation, Michael malice, the sport, this by please check on our sponsors in the description and now let me leave you with the words from show some esteem Listen to the martians child, listen to the dots listen to the students. They impossible the wants listen to the never has then listen close to me anything happened. Child anything can be. Thank you for listening. I hope to see you next. yeah Easy Hmm.