« Making Sense with Sam Harris

#175 — Leaving the Faith

2019-11-11 | 🔗

In this episode of the Making Sense podcast, Sam Harris speaks with Yasmine Mohammed about her book "Unveiled: How Western Liberals Empower Radical Islam." They discuss her family background and indoctrination into conservative Islam, the double standard that Western liberals use when thinking about women in the Muslim community, the state of feminism in general, honor violence, the validity of criticizing other cultures, and many other topics.

SUBSCRIBE to listen to the rest of this episode and gain access to all full-length episodes of the podcast at samharris.org/subscribe.

This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Welcome to the making sense, podcast this is SAM Harris. Okay no housekeeping today, just a reminder you're, a podcast supporter to get the supporter RSS feed because changes are coming. I don't want you to miss content, so go to subscriber content page on my website and make sure you've got the subscriber feed in your favor. Podcasting app thereafter making sense icon will show up in red rather than black. Today, I'm speaking with Yasmine Mohammed. As many as a human rights activist and a writer she's, a very eloquent ticket for women living in islamic majority countries and in the some community generally worldwide and a very effective critic Of religious fundamentalism and her new book unveiled, how western liberals and power, radical Islam and I
Yasmin Corner four a little while when she was getting ready to write her book and was at the proposal stage. I blurbed Hirth is the blurb that appears on the book but this is a blurb really for her as a person before her book was even written, and I'll just read that here. To give you some context. Women free thinkers in traditional muslim communities inherit a double burden. If I want to live in the modern world. They must in front, not only the theocrats in their homes in schools, but many secular liberals whose apathy sanctimony and hallucinations of quote racism throw yet another veil over their suffering, Yasmine Mohammed accepts this challenges courageously as anyone I've ever met putting the line to the dangerous notion that criticizing the doctrine of Islam is a form of bigotry, better wisdom and bravery, inspire you and So you should- and here he has been an item
her background, and doctor into conservative Islam and the double standard, that western liberals used to think about women in the muslim community. We talk about feminism. Generally, the validity of criticizing other cultures and other related topics. So now I bring you a very brave and one of my heroes, Jasmine been Muhammad I am here with the admin Yasmin thanks for coming on the podcast. Thank you so much for having me SAM so this has been a long time coming. I forget where I disc for it was a twitter or or what how do we get introduced. I sent you an email
just a cold email as well. We respect. I was supposed to do a talk in Australia with magic about the some of the future of tolerance documentary and then I had to cancel it because I was going through a lot of you know. Basically, I was having consistent panic attacks and I take some time off work and I just had to cancel all of my my speaking a So I sent you a letter to sort of apologize that I was going to be able to make it and then wrote back to me and started asking me about the panic attacks, what's going on with their and so then that's how I got into meditation. Actually, oh interesting, ok, so yeah. I remember that, but I don't remember that being the first contact, did you not have a twitter presence, yet I did have a twitter presence. They weren't following me, yet ok! Well, someone could have been forwarding your stuff, I feel like I saw you there first, but maybe not
You go hard on Twitter, that's something we're going talk about! It's the Arab in me! So, let's just take it from the top. We're talking about your book unveiled in the end, but let's, let's just start with your Story from beginning where, where did you come from and what were your parents like, and what was your upbringing like? This is the beginning of of your story that For better or worse made you one of the most courageous voices I can at the moment. So to the beginning. I guess would be my meeting each other in university in Egypt, so my dad's from Bella Stein and my mom is egyptian. The Palestinians could go to university in Egypt, it was all covered like they were treated as Egyptians, but they weren't given citizenship, so they met in universe. In Egypt and my mother's family were very angry at her for marrying a palestinian 'cause. They thought he was so beneath her. But they got married and then they moved to San Francisco together and they were
there during the peace, love hippie era and they had my sister and was a bit too much peace and love, and so my mom wanted, like a quieter place to raise the kids, and so then they moved to Vancouver Canada. That's where I was born, but then their marriage fell apart in the end anyway, when I was about two years old, my dad you know left us went to the other side of the, country. So here my mom is now in a new country, no support system, no community, three children and she's feeling you know depressed vulnerable. Sad lonely all that stuff and how religious were they at this point? No religiosity whatsoever, neither of them they're both grew up. Very secular. My dad has like zero connection to religion. Is
like. A cultural thing is very anti Israel just being palestinian, but there's no religious like him. Personally, he wasn't very was a practicing And then my mom's all alone, and so she goes looking for a support system and she goes looking at the mosque for community. And at the mosque she finds a man who is
already married already has three children, but he offers to take my mom on SS seconds, concurrent wife right, so you know she is happy to have somebody take care of her and take care of her kids and so she's willing to put up with whatever he's dishing out. My dad was abusive towards her. He used to hit her and this man. Never it hit us of course, but he never had her. So she felt like this was a better relationship for her, so she stayed with him as a second and current wife. We lived in his basement and he is very, like my life changed completely when he entered our lives so before him I used to be able to you know play with my:
neighbors friends like we play barbies together, I'd go swimming I'd ride my bike. I got a birthday parties, listen to music, you ever just like a normal childhood and then once he entered our lives, it was just immediate everything is from everything is forbidden and all of a sudden, my mom started covering her hair and we had to start reading from this book of this. You know these words that I don't understand and I had to start praying five times a day and I resisted it from the beginning. Of course, I miss my old life. I was especially upset that I couldn't play with Chelsea and Lindsey anymore they always come knocking on the door wanting to play barbies and we never. I was never allowed to go and they were never allowed in and we're going to the same school at this point or yep, but not for long, and then I got as soon as the atomic school was. I mean it wasn't built. It was in the mosque, but as soon as it was established that we would have an islamic school and my mom was teaching
then I started going there was this associated with any religious waiting on your mom's part, or she just needed a man to take care of her, and it was just, I think, practical in Rome Well, I don't know if Amanda is part of it. I think you practical for sure, and it was a combination of both of those things, so she needed. I think she was happy to have somebody take care of her, but then also she just became a full on board again Muslim, so she just entered it like she just jumped all in it was never you know if you see her wedding photos looks like a bond girl. Like short wedding, dress, big huge beehive, you know there was a belly dancer at her wedding and to go from that.
To the woman that raised me that I remember is just the pretty shocking difference an I used to always you know, resent that I'd be like how come you got freedom? How come you got to live like this? Look at your pictures when you were a kid you know how come I don't. About life and she'd say because my parents didn't know any better and I'm raising you better and you're going to be a better person and you're going to go to have it in my parents did the best they could, but they were wrong, and so how old are you and you're expressing these doubts or well? I was about you know six years old when he entered our life, and I just I resisted all the way up at probably about nine years old is when I stopped 'cause. That's when the hijab was put on me when I start going to islamic school, and it was just too much so you can't really fight anymore, when everything in your life is you know, pushing you in one direction. You just you know succumb, especially when you're a kid, but, according to my mom I was never. You know good enough.
The devil is always whispering in my ear and making me question. I was asked questions right like if I look created everything who created a law and stuff like that, like how could I even these are such blasphemous. You know if Adam and Eve are You know the parents of all people. Are we all children of incest? So these basic questions of you know that a kid would ask I get in trouble for them. So is there any point where you just went hook, line and sinker and fully adopted the worldview? Without doubt, did you or did you always have some doubt, I'm in the background The the doubt humming in the background finally went quiet once I was forced into the marriage with. I saw him
okay. Once I married him- and I warn hub so that's like full face covering the gloves everything I was so diminished that I didn't have anything left the and I also kind of made the conscious decision that I mean I was desperate for my mom's love and approval. My sister was always the good girl that always. Listened and never questioned, and my I wanted that I wanted to have you know that relationship with my mom, so she kept on pressuring me to marry this man- and I eventually gave in because I thought you know what maybe she'll actually love me. If I follow what she wants me to do I'll marry the man, she tells me to merry I'll. Do everything the way she says to do it? I've been fighting against this. My whole life. What happens if I just let go and see if she's actually right
and how old are you at this point? Some of twenty and I did let go, and I did follow exactly what she said and and until I had my daughter and held here in my arms and saw that she was about to grow up in the same environment that I grew up in. My mom was talking to her. The same way she had talked to me. Her father was talking about FG Ann, her dying, a martyr for a law and things like I'm like. Ok enough, you know, I'm not. I could maybe accept this world for myself, but I'm not going to accept it. For my daughter, there's no way she's going to live this same life, and was he egyptian yeah, and I think people aren't generally aware that Fgm is practiced in Egypt.
Like ninety eight percent, basically like Somalia, in terms of the prevalence of that practice. So- and this was say fully arranged marriage or it had been encouraged. Once you had met him so It wasn't fully arranged in that. I didn't know I was going to marry him my whole life. Sometimes people arranged marriages for their kids like from the get go, but it was definitely a forced marriage, which is a very call main in the arab world so like, this is the man we want you to marry and then you basically just get introduced to him and the woman doesn't need to consent, feel like in a slam. It says, silence is consent, so if you just sit there and cry like ok, we're good yeah you're you're. Now you know that's like saying I do, and so there it was. You know you get
pressured into it. In the same way you get pressured into everything else, so it's just like wearing the hijab and you get you get given two choices. Do you want to go to Heaven? If you want to go to Hell, do you want to be a good, pure, clean girl, or do you want to be a filthy whore like these? Are your choices? Make the right choice, so forcing you into a marriage is similar kind of coercion, so it would be things like. There's a hadith says Heaven is at the feet of your mother's, so your mother gets it decide whether you're going to go to Heaven or not. So this was the one that was used all the time and it's a very dangerous weapon for an abusive mother to have so she would use that one should say: you're never going to go to Heaven. Unless I approve you to enter Heaven and if you don't marry this man, you will never go to Heaven. You will burn in hell for eternity, and you will suffer. On earth because you are no longer my daughter. I want nothing to do with you
I won't even allow you to come to my funeral because I don't like, as far as anyone is concerned, you're no longer my family and then, when you die, you'll burn in hell for eternity, so go ahead and make the choice. Yeah, yeah, yeah, reading your book, it's a fairly heroin account of your childhood and adolescence, and young adulthood was like, and I think it's used to differentiate? What is just the sheer bad luck of having an abusive and perhaps mentally ill mom and having married somebody who will will will get into his story in a moment but that's bad luck that could happen to anyone in any culture weather with without religion. And then there are the cultural practices. Aren't necessarily mandated by Islam and maybe don't necessarily represent every Muslim, even most Muslims experience and then there's just what is
fairly common under Islam, because you can just play, connect the dots and see that it is mandated, or at least encouraged. In the text so weird, how do you kind of carve out those different strands for Maine? What is just the sheer bad luck of based on the personalities involved and where where's the contribution of this one yeah? So the problem is these: a lot of these elements are sanctioned in Islam, so, as SAM says, for example, tells a man if you fear that your wife is arrogant or DIS obedient, then you know, go through these steps and then beat her. So it's not like a lot is telling men if you fear that your wife is going to give you any trouble beater right. So not every single man is going to beat his wife and not every single man is going to you know viciously.
His wife there's going to be you know, different men are going to react in different ways, but the problem is the fact that it is sanctioned. So if you complain about it like in my example when I went to my mom and said he punched me in the face when he saw that I wasn't wearing Hijab in the house on the 17th floor, because he was afraid people like I don't know seagulls people. Helicopters might see me through the window and her response was. He has every right to be you. You are his. It says so, right there chapter four verse, thirty four that's the problem. The problem is that it it's it's, it's codified it's in the religion, and so it can be used in different ways. You know like not like I said, not every muscle. Man is going to be his wife, but those who do have scriptural support yeah yeah,
debate. Really is not whether or not that support exists, but what is meant by beating? It's like how hard you can beat your wife, very subjective and there's scholars that come forward and they say things like So you know you just you it's like is like with a toothbrush or whatever, but those are just scholars offering their interpretations. As far as the hood on is concerned, it doesn't say that it just says there one now: that's it had it offers. No, you know there's no asterisks there, but that's subjective anyway, like you don't it depends on the country that you're in depends on the environment. That you're used to yeah beating is can be pretty bad and any obviously
hitting another human being is a bad thing anyway, and the creator of the universe really should not be sanctioning husbands to be beating their wives, but there's a there's, a famous critic of a slam, name, Thomas on to someone who any egyptian german man who had a really great way of describing this, and he says it's like a laws at the bar and he had a bit much to drink and he's like you, just like beat your wives, man and his friends The scholars are behind him going. No, no, he doesn't really mean that he doesn't doesn't. He doesn't actually mean that he needs like like with a feather or something. So those are just the scholars trying to soften it. Up at the end of the day, people read the hood on and they you know they quote, verse. So when you were in the the cop at this point, when that happened, the job was at nine years old. You know, as far as I could remember her,
and then once I was engaged to him started wearing that hobby got it all delivered from Saudi Arabia and that really helps in the humanizing you that really helps in turning me into a nothing that he can control very easily. It just suppresses your humanity entirely. It's like a portable sensory deprivation chamber and you are no longer connected to humanity. You can't see properly can't hear properly. You can't speak properly. People can't see you, you can only see them. I mean just a little thing it's like passing people in the street and just making eye contact and smiling like that's gone, you're no longer part of this world, and so you very very quickly just shrivel up into nothing. Under there.
Yeah well we're going to get to this, but it is amazing how sanguine western feminists are around this practice like this is just a another cultures ideal of how to feminine beauty and empower women. Who are we to criticize it? We should differentiate the head job from the macabre. The head job is just a straight up: symbol of female empowerment now in the West right and did despite your best efforts on twitter. It is just amazing to see what has been done with this and we have in the aftermath of the Christ church Massacre, the Prime Minister of New Zealand, puts it on as the only possible show of respect for the community. There's just no other way to express' solidarity, but to don the symbol and we
Linda Sarsour, aide, organizing the women's March and there's so many examples of this. For some reason, people one can't most of the women on earth right now or wearing his job are not doing it? Based on some empower? They felt at an ivy league institution where they just they're just going to take the male gaze off them at their own discretion, so they're forced to do what the consequences of not doing it in many cases are, if not absolutely, coercive social pressure is actually physical violence, but it is also just a step toward then the in the burqa, which are the actual crystallization of the ideal hear this being enshrined, which is exalted female modesty. Is the only thing that safeguards male sexuality from completely running amok, like all men, would be
mowers and rapists, but for the fact that women hide themself, maybe jump into that now. I want to talk about your who your husband revealed himself to be, but what have your encounters with western feminists been like? Well, that makes me really sad that they consider muslim women to be of some other species, an that are so completely different from them so for themselves. They will recognize all of those things that you talked about are. Basically, victim blaming. You know, slutshaming shaming. They wreck, Nys those elements of rape, culture. When we're in the western context, which are you know, there are much harder to see in the western context but under sure It's very very easy to clearly see a perfect example of rape, culture.
But they somehow, when it's vote those women over there, it it's empowering like. Would it be empowering for you if you were told you have to wear this clothing in order to protect yourself from men who might rape you or you have to wear this clothing in order to be good and pure and go to Heaven, because if you don't wear it, then you're a filthy whore. That you wouldn't know. Woman would want to hear that no seven year old child would like to be told you have to wear this in order to go to school in your brother doesn't have to. He can wear whatever he won but you must wear this or you're not allowed to get educated. It is an atrocity like that. That's something that every human being should be upset about and the fact that they think that it's okay for those humans over there, but not for us is the part that really upset
Main yeah, when what do you do with the fact that you could go into any one of these cultures find women. Who will say I want to wear the I want to wear the burka, just take your colonial bulshit elsewhere, yeah, oh of course there will be an you, can also go to fundamentalist Christian You know cults and they will tell you I want to be a servant for my husband. You see people like that on Twitter, all the time right there. Like you know, I quit my job I cook and clean for my husband and I'm proud of it whatever it is, like women make all sorts of choices and decisions, and that's really up to them and they're free to do that, and but I'm also free to make a judgment on the decisions that they're making. So when I'm talking about the the job as a symbol of patriarchy and a symbol of misogyny. I'm saying that because, as you mentioned, not only are girls coerced into
because of you, family or government or religion, but girls can be killed because of this, and not just in the muslim world, but in Canada in America. In France, in Sweden, there is honor it's an honor killing going on a girl a sixteen year. Old girl in Canada was strangled to death by her father and her brother with the hijab, but she refused to wear and then- parents refused to bury her because they didn't want anything to do with her there's so many stories around this. The one that sounds stranger than fiction is the. Case in Saudi Arabia, where the school was on fire and the religious police, wouldn't let the fire department put it out, because the girls weren't appropriately veiled yeah, and I literally parents standing at the gates of the school watching their daughters burned alive. It's just, and there are women that are in IRAN,
today that are being imprisoned for fifteen years and more for refusing to wear this cloth on their head. So it's not just you know it's not just a benign choice. When the minister of New Zealand or when Meghan Markle put a hijab on their head. It's not a benign support of some benign cultural thing. It is a not just a symbol but an actual tool. Full of oppression. There are women being imprisoned and women being killed. There is a fight over this head. Job going on right now in Sudan, Egypt, IRAN, Saudi Arabia, out burning their hijabs in the streets, they're fighting against this thing and then to see free, western Women free western women leaders take this thing that they are fighting against an view voluntarily, terribly donning it and supporting it. What
women are doing. Is they are supporting the oppressors? supporting the oppressors that these women are fighting against yeah? The double standard is. So clear a and it really is sanity, straining that it's so hard for people to see. So I got a bill with the clearest case. For me, in the media was when I don't remember this, but Warren Jeffs, the the leader of the Flds, the fundamentalist Mormon cult in his compound was and all these little girls and young women were let out in these little house on the prairie dresses right they made to wear these awful 18th century dresses and they had been married to men who worked their grandfather's ages, and these forced marriages were described as rapes,
and the men were totally unrepentant and you know Jeff Scott things at least fifteen years in prison. I forgot he got a real prison sentence and this was all talked about on the news as just an unambiguous example of patriarchal exploitation of girls. The fact that was associated with it with religious belief was not even slightly exculpatory and everyone celebrated the fact that there was a swan. Team raid on the compound we kicked in the door of this place to free freedom, girls, girls and it didn't matter at all that the girls didn't want to be free, but we knew they had been brain washed. So when they were talking about how they love their husbands. For to a man or whatever it was had any qualm discounting that for their obvious ignorance and brainwashing right and
when you compare that to what is happening routinely in the muslim world. The mainstream media has the opposite response, and this is The most benign case of real extremism in the muslim world and its truth is not even extreme, but the extremism in the muslim world. You have to add to that the clitorectomy's that performed on these girls, the fact that they were raising their sons to be suicide bombers right, and there was a an explicit and doctor nation of a martyrdom, and they were exporting terrorism to the capitals of Europe and America. That's how the fundamentalist Mormon! it would have to behave to make it an analogous situation and no one can see it on the left. I guess the other example I should mention. I believe I mentioned this on previous.
Cast, but really belongs here, because we're talking about this last night, I just saw eye on her silly give a talk at the university for the first time in three years incidents since she was the platform at Brandeis as a fairly conservative college, pepper, nine in an explicitly christian College and she ran through her whole life story on statements, starting with FEMA General mutilation, abuse in school, physical abuse, sexual abuse? She described it routine among her friends at the school she was in. She described all this and how she escaped a forced. Marriage became a member of parliament which she is just the truth of feminist success story right and, as she starts to get into a discussion of contemporary politics, I mean
see. The edges thing she said was if I were teaching at the university and someone in one of my students said that they didn't want to read in a certain novel because it triggered them. I would insist they read that novel, because that's what university is for I think the other thing she said was when me two came up. She expressed blanket support for it, but she said we have to keep a sense of proportion There are the Harvey Weinstein's of the world and then people.
Put a hand where it's not wanted, and you slap it away. She was trying to give some articulate in that this spectrum of misbehavior that we need to differentiate as she is talking about this again. She had just spent a half hour describing an a and a background, so replete with abuse, charcoal abuse that you would think it would. It would have well earned her intersection now the points of a sort that you know you you people have and I've got these white women students behind me. You are beginning to almost heckle her. Right. It was just hissing and laughter among themselves, and then they walked out. It was like a mega is another kind of brain washing, there's a kind of moral pan, happening around variable
of gender and race on the left that is making it impossible to even parse the state of a somali woman right who just re, capitulated. The entire enlightenment success story of Amen, secularism and modernity and humanistic values in her own k, in a few short years. It's just amazing. So anyway, yeah I mean, if ion had white skin an head overcome. All of those things in the west she would be celebrated should be hailed as a feminist hero. So I mean when you were talking before about the difference between that Mormon Cult and girls in the muslim world. I started to tear up because it reminded me of your TED talk, which I'm going to tear up again. That TED talk to me hit me so hard because it was the first time anybody in like
Media I'd ever heard somebody care about those girls the same way you would care about any other girls like the argument you're making in that TED talk like these girls in Afghanistan. Why are they different than the girls from the Mormon cult. Sorry, I know it's great to talk. Thank you so much that's you don't have to apologize. This is a good radio yeah. Well, if you people notice it, but I actually teared up in that TED talk. I don't remember. We spoke about this or not, but there was a point I talk about honor killing and I said imagine your daughter gets raped and what you want to do is is kill her out of shame and you know. Obviously I had rehearsed that
talk a ton. I mean, unlike any other talk, you ever give a TED talk, is like this memorization feet right we have to. Remember every line because you're got a hard time limit and no notes, and so it's a very odd talk to give because you're, basically it's a performance as yourself, I mean you're, not thinking out loud, because you really have a script that you've memorized at least that's the way most people do it in the way I both of my TED talks, and so I obviously I knew exactly what I was going to say and I had done this. You know a dozen times at least, but I had just been told a couple of hours before going out on stage that my first daughter had taken her first steps. So got to that point in the talk totally punctured me and I actually almost burst into tears and you can sort of people who are just watching it. As a TED talk, don't tend to notice, but you can see that
I have I have to like, I'm almost totally derailed in the talk at the moment and yeah it's you could see that you actually care. That was very evident and that's why it hit me so hard is because I'm so used to there being this two tier system of, like all you know, girls, that matter and then the girls that don't matter- and that was the first time I had seen in the western world somebody standing up like in a TED talk up for us as if we were human beings like every other girl on the planet- and that was very evident in your talk and then, of course you know immediately after your talk, you get questioned about it. You know the the all the predictable things happen, and so you know that. So that's a very quick, the walking
cum swallow you have to be at exactly here. I am feeling all excited and happy and there it is, but you know I just wish that this is why the the subtitle of the book, how western liberals and power radical, is sound. Like that's what it's all about. I want my liberal friends and supporters, and you know my this is where I see myself. I am in this realm to so. When I talk about liberals, I'm not saying those people over there, I'm saying us over here. We need to look at what we are doing and we need to stake. Assistant and if we believe that all humans are equal, then why are we having a different set of you know: why do we use a different yardstick for these people versus these people? I feel like if they could see that
They could understand that then they would get it like. I feel like if they could get the lunacy of. Would you sell great, a Mormon underwear on the cover of sports illustrated No, you wouldn't. You would automatically see that that's ridiculous for many different reasons, but then having a burkini on the cover of sports illustrated that's something to be celebrated like I just want them to stay with the thought for former and just continue on with that and think? Okay? Why is the celebrated? And this is not yet again it it's, it's very hard to understand how the point doesn't run through and change people's outlook, just in real time whenever you have the converse So, like an example, I occasionally use one I'm getting criticized for judging another cult
like an again. I always go to the most extreme, and still it's not extreme enough. So I talk about the Taliban or used to talk about the Taliban. A lot before ISIS came around, but when I was in this convo a lot, I will talk about the Taliban. I would say: ok well Then I actually I'm starting to agree with you. So I think I'm going to do is I'm going to send my daughters for a year internship to Afghanistan, right so they'll have to wear the burqa and they'll they'll just learn to recite the Koran, and then you know they'll get beaten if they take the often in a little broaden horizons and just get the full cultural experience. So my and my good fathers that that is, that the right decision right and it's considered I've never seen the point land land a is It's like it's considered, on the one hand a low or it just doesn't compute
So like a and- and you you find yourself in in this conversation a lot both both on social media and in the world, what is it that keeps the double standard ethically in place? Even when you pointed out, I think it's because we have been taught that you cannot criticize other cultures. We can only criticize western culture is the only culture that safe to the size. So my counter argument to that is when you decide something. That is how progress happens. So western culture has been criticized a lot and that's why there is l g b, T equality here and women's equality. He and all of these progressive. You know we got rid of slavery in all. Of these things happen because of internal criticism. That is how progress happens if do not criticize things that deserve to be criticized. How will progress happen so
these groups of people that are saying no, no, we cannot criticize the Talla Ban or we cannot criticize the fact that iranian What the iranian regime is doing or saudi arabian or etc, etc, etc, You're doing is you're, saying weed, once those cultures to progress they to stay the way they are. You know one thousand four hundred years ago, the way they the religion formed the way Sharia was formed. This kind of thinking needs to just be fossilized. Now that is what again, we've got that two tier system going on Why don't these people deserve progress as well? Why don't? The gay people in those countries deserve to not be executed, Don't the women in those countries also deserve not free the nipple, but like free the face you know like why? Don't they also deserve freedom? Howard? Say a different kind of human than you are because there are people in the
countries that are rich taking their lives. I mean America's got. You know like live free or die. They they they embody that live, free or die my mentality and they are I better way just blogging about humanism logging about liberalism gets him whipped in the streets get some ten years in prison. You know I mentioned in IRAN, removing a job off of your head gets you thrown in prison inside Rabia, a woman was walking without Hijab on got thrown in prison, I could go on and on and on about these cases, and that doesn't even start to talk about the twelve countries two fifteen countries. I can't remember right now that will execute people for. Being gay. You know
If you are like that or being an apostate. Yes, if you decide that you don't want to believe in this religion anymore than you are to be killed, you're given three days to repent, and if you don't repent within those three days, then you're to be killed So if we're liberals- and we believe in liberal values, why do we only care about the LGBT that are living in close proximity geographically to us? What what about the ones over there. Don't they matter to. Can we talk about them as well, but no, we excuse is it over there or we ignore it over there, so how all those countries progress. How will those cultures progress? It's unfair you deserve it to feminism- is universal. It's not just western or all of human rights yeah. So. I guess it's a concern about racism and the
balance of power and wealth between the west and the rest of the developing world. The legacy of colonialism. It's it's white guilt. Yes, because white people in the in the center of it all they always want to be in center of it all, it always has to be as a result of you know, as if Arabs were just frolic king in the desert making sandcastles until the white man came along and taught them how to be baddies to each other. You know like please. These things happened and these things You know, regardless of western intervention, of course that adds in some cases fuel to the fire. But that's not the be all in the end. All you know. America is not the the center of the of the reason for everything that's happening in the muslim world, there's a whole their world over there that had existed before the west even existed, so
and then again there's this idea that you know. People need to remember that Islam is the second largest religion on the planet. It's not! some little minor like in them in America, you got like one percent or so are our Muslims, so they think that it's just a small group that not really not that many people are getting hurt by it and the concern is it's a beleaguered minority in in the west generally, but especially in a place like America, so that I mean I mean that's probably true, but it is not a beleaguered minority on a global scale. So if you just you know, expand on that and the reason why this matters to us over here is because ideas cross borders. They don't just stay over there so, you know all of these- these misogynist id is in you know all of these things. Talking about the honor culture in the honor via
ends in the honor killing that doesn't just happen over there wow in you know those ideas all come here to? I was born and raised in a western country in a secular democracy, but I actually lived under Sharia in my own home and in my own school, because we're separated in a bubble from from the rest of society. So for me, to get out of that world was infinitely easier than it is for a woman in Saudi Arabia or in Sudan or in Somalia, are in Pakistan who is having the same thoughts as I am in the same feelings as I am wanting to get free, she can't because she's, you know her she's, not ordered by her government in the way I was right. She couldn't just go, get student loans and get on social assistance. Or whatever like there's. No, there are no, you know there are no there's no support system for that. She will in fact get imprisoned or she could be killed.
Or defying her family, and even in your case, it was still fairly hard for you to get out of you, you told me a story about what it was like. I think when you, when you were twelve, to report your desire for freedom to one of your teachers, so perhaps tell that story. Yes, so that's Mister Fabbro, who wrote the, forward to my book. I just met him recently. I was twelve years old when I meet him. I the met him again recently. I was twelve years old and I or thirteen his old and I went to him and I told him about the abuse that was happening at home. So this was that during the time when I was still fighting trying to to get out of the home, I was in my mom was married to this abuse of man. And I showed him the bruises and I told him the stories and he
calling, the police and child services were involved, and it ended up going to court, and essentially the judge ruled that. Because my family are arab, and that is the way they choose to discipline me then that's their right, and so, first of all, I have to explain how difficult it is when you're part of an insular community too Go to the outsiders so to go to the non believers and ask them for help. That's that's really a betrayal, it's kind of like if you're in the mafia, if you're the rat, you know I'm going to the cops, and I'm saying I need help.
So for me to overcome that as a child and to go and ask for help and then to have the judge? Basically tell me sorry: your family happened to have been born in this country, so your not going to be protected had your parents been born in you know, Sweden or Germany or Scotland. I would protect you, but sorry, you know that's just luck of the draw. You know I'm. I'm hearing him tell me you, don't matter as much as other kids. And I know that it's coming from a place of trying to be culturally sensitive, but it ends up like this this whole
troll relativism, moral relativism. You end up hurting the people in those groups and you end up supporting the people that are oppressing them within those groups, you know this is Margie's point about abandoning the minorities within the minorities. If you about minority communities also pay attention to the people who are being routinely victimized in those communities, so you're taking in this case you're taking the side of theocrats. Yes, who are abusing women and girls over the prison women and girls, yes, gazing, freethinkers and apostates, and anyone else in community who's being abused. Salute and why why, Does it matter if this little girl has blonde hair and blue eyes and her parents took razor or her aunt eraser and chopped out her clitoris, but then
scroll over here has brown skin and her family is from Somalia, and they did the same thing now. Why would one set of parents be treated differently by law enforcement than another set of parents like those two girls are both suffering equally, there is no difference between these children. How it's going to affect them for the rest of their lives. Why is one more important than the other? That's what they're there well meaning excusing of. Cultural norms? This is what ends up happening. You end up, leaving these kids to be victimized, but then you also end up becoming incredibly racist. Yes, this is the yet another irony in a The irony museum, the people who are actually being racist here, are the people who we are most concerned about racism. Yes, that's what I heard from the judge. That's how I felt
and that's what I've been told. My whole life. You know I told these nonbelievers don't care about you. These nonbelievers hate you these non. Neighbors are your enemy, and I never believed it, but that judge made We actually believe it. I was like now he really just said that to me. He really just said you don't matter as much because you're from that culture, if you were from culture acts you would matter but you're from culture wise. So you don't matter so I felt that he was being racist towards me that was probably the only time in my life because Canadians are, you know, generally not racist people, but that was only time in my life and it's coming, like you said, like you know it's coming from a place of of good intense, but it ends up being being so counterproductive. And all of these things are so when you say people of color and color it as a person of color. That is segregation, your sub, it's no
different than saying colored people, because you're saying here's, humanity, here's people and then here's people of color, the uh your other ring us. How is that, not racism, don't separate us we're all just people. This is a point for which I find very few takers when I'm in these conversations with someone who's more woke than I am. If we acknowledge that the goal is to get to a society where we're all just human beings and the color of a person skin is one of the least interesting facts about them totally analogous to the color of their hair right. So you got blondes you've got redheads. You got people with black hair and brown hair. Who cares you know and anyone who said well, you know we really need. We need to take an inventory of how blondes are doing. This sort of job are not enough blonde cardiologists I've noticed and this clearly the some some happening there. How do we correct for this this
an onion article right and I'm not discounting fact that racism has been a terrible problem and it's still a problem in certain cases. But if the goal is to get to a society that is actually post, racist and post racial can we start acting as though that were the case yeah right. Is it one is? Is it too soon to start acting as though you actually don't care about the color of a person's skin yeah? and you don't want to hear every political argument parsed by that variable or any political argument, parts by that variable and it's a using when you're in conversation with a white, liberal intellectual, you can almost guarantee that the door to that consideration is bar it's too soon, though, there's no argument for that even met people who say this is a false ideal race is always going to be the most important thing.
Your king was wrong when he said that we should judge a person based on the content of their character versus the color of their skin. Exactly it's an explicit disavowal of that with a clear conscience and no one seems to notice which is really inconvenient for those of us who are left of center on basically every issue rice with them. This is that this great scandal that it that surrounds like ion, and perhaps you know you have a direct experience with this as well allies. You find when you tell your story of abuse under Islamists. The theocracy are christian, it is in neocons. People on the right who chording me for this reason that I don't support yeah, but also to take my experience with christian conservatives. At least these are people who don't doubt the power of religious ideas and religion.
Doctor nation, so when, when they run their code with uh, one toggle switch to mom. They know. Okay, I know that ISIS or you want when ISIS makes their videos and frames at all in religious language, the fundamentalists have no problem understanding what's happening there they understand the power of ideas and secular liberals reliably. Don't they just think that it's got to be another explanation? This is this. Something else is going on here. This can't be religion 'cause. They don't understand the power of religion, the of indoctrination. Speaking of the power of indoctrination, who did your husband turned out to be so my ex husband, as a member of Al Qaeda, he joy when he was eighteen years old, so when he was fourteen years old, his father in Egypt,
there's a very clear distinction between classes. So if you're from a lower class or a higher class, it's not you know it's not a democracy. So there's it's very, very clear. You dress differently. You speak different. You act differently, and so when he was growing up his family. You know his father when he was about fourteen years old got a better job and they moved to a better part of town and he went to better schools, so he didn't really fit in because he was coming from the other side of the tracks and it's not that he was being bullied, but it he just didn't fit in with his peers. And those are the ones that the jihadis go around trying to catch those boys so much like gangs, or
you know, NEO Nazis. You know they're catching those boys that are full of aggression and it's at age of fourteen to two hundred and sixteen where they're just they're, not you know: they're, not cognitively, mature, but they're physically able to you know, they're, strong and they're full of tossed around and their full of aggression, and he was encouraged that if he joined this group of men that he would reach levels of heaven that no other human would ever reach other than like the prophets. So it was, you know it's intoxicating, so he joined this group in all of his friends at school didn't want to be friends with him didn't matter, because he was friends with these men that were amazing and powerful, and you know, and so when he was eighteen, he told his father that he wanted to go to America to
Eddie and his father. Let him go, but instead he went to Afghanistan and he was with Bin Laden in you know a member of Al Qaeda for ever since he was a kid right, so use trains by him raised by him essentially and eventually he was sense to Canada to be the the the center of the cell that were here in support of nine eleven to to to you know. To that end, I I lived you're was this. This was, ninety six, so I lived,
close to the american border. I lived in a city called White Rock and at the time you could cross the border with just a driver's, Since I mean you could just say, I'm just I'm just going to Bellingham to get some gas or whatever like they. Don't nobody cared. You could cross the border so easilly back then, and so it's easier it was easier for them to come into Canada and then just cross. The border versus going into America. And all of the stuff that I'm telling you now I learned, of course after we were divorced. Like me just going on his Wikipedia page and finding the New York Times articles and stuff, so at the time. All I knew was that he had because he entered Canada, so he's egyptian he's coming from Afghanistan and he's entering Canada with a fake
saudi arabian passport. That's a lot of red flags, but then, all of a sudden he gets this money sent to him that bails him out of prison and pays for a lawyer, And they have trace that money, and I came straight from Bin Laden. He said somebody from California up to bail him out of prison and got him the best lawyers and the lawyer argued that he doesn't have egyptian SH citizenship, because Egypt had taken us there's a chip away because I knew he was a terrorist and so he needed to enter Canada as a refugee, it's pretty crazy, now to think Post, nine hundred and eleven that he actually was approved as a refugee with all these red flags. But you know who knows what they were thinking, but a part of me suspects. That the FBI were already following him and I'll. Tell you why. I suspect this is because
So I was married to him. Covered head to toe in black. Never leave the house unless I'm with him, but then one day my mom starts to bleed simultaneously from her nose and her mouth, and I call nine one one and I go with her to the hospital the first time in our entire marriage that I'm out of the house with him not now to me, and my mom not next to me either I'm alone for the very first time, and that is when I'm approached by see Sis who are the canadian CIA. That's why I approached it like immediately in the waiting room. I thought that they were doctors and I and so that's why I suspect that FBI, They kind of like let him in like along with seats. They said, okay, go ahead, let him into the country and let's just follow him and see what what he does while he's here, because I don't know how they could have found me so quickly, and they sat me down- and they told me who I was married to and I had been Lied-
I knew he was in Afghanistan, but I've been told he used to drive an ambulance. He was a peacekeeper in a paramedic, and He he was doing in right. He was reporting. The afghani boys are fighting against the Russians, training, the little kids and you know, he's just a do good human And the so I learned from C who he really is, and the terrorism he was really involved in and of course, that gives me the kick in the I I needed to get myself And my daughter away from him did you believe them immediately? I believe them immediately yeah, because everything that all the things that were happening that were making me feel suspicious were all everything just started to make sense everything just clicked it was just a click. Click click whole K. That's why this amount.
By that he was always really secretive. I I never like go for like days at a time I didn't know where he was, and you know he would he would get I I just I I it all made sense to me. There was one time there was a time magazine that had been laden in it and he flipped out and he's like get this out of the house. Why is this in here? Do you want me to get kicked out of the country, and I was like what? Why are you having such a reaction like it? And then there is, they showed me. A picture of Bin Laden too and they're like did were the radius like. Has he talked about this man? And I was like, oh my god, that's the same dude in the turban that he flipped out about when he saw him in a magazine and just things like that and plus it's not.
That hard of a leap, because I knew that Afghanistan was full of magenta team and you know for them to tell me that he was a terrorist or that he was that you had. It was like okay, well that that makes sense right like why else would he have been in Afghanistan for all those years and he was incredibly brutal and violent with me. So the story about him. Being the you know, a paramedic in post. Yeah like that was that was that was much harder to believe I mean so. I yeah I'd already been wanting to get away from him anyway, because like as I mentioned to you, I don't know if I mentioned to you on, but he had been talking about getting my daughter. Taking her to Egypt to get Fgm performed on her and
I knew that I needed to get her out, but I just didn't: have the courage yet to do it. Like I said I was a high school education covered head to toe in black. I was diminished as a human, and so this was the catalyst for me because he was always talking about taking us and going back to Afghanistan living in Peshawar, where it was supposed to be this little paradise and so learning about who he was really pushed me to, to get us out of there, and so how did you get out? And what's happened to him? So I actually I detailed this in my book 'cause, it's a very long, convoluted detailed story, but I end up secretly
Getting to a lawyer and asking I so I have to explain a little bit about how I secretly did it so I'm living with him and I find out that I'm pregnant, so I'm going for an ultrasound And then immediately after the ultrasound, I'm told you have to go to this clinic and meet your doctor, and my doctor tells me that the baby doesn't have a heartbeat, and so I have to go for in for Dnc Surge and then they tell me you're going to go under general anaesthetic. You have I head like a full daughter at the time, so you're going to need help with your daughter for, like you know, a day or so 'cause you're to be groggy. So I told him I saw this as my opportunity, so it was a very very emotional time because I'm dealing with oh, my God my baby is dead, but also, oh, my god. I have to save the baby, that's alive and so
I told him. I need to go to my mom's house to recover for a week and so that she could help me with the baby. So he wasn't happy about it. But at the same he doesn't want to help me with the baby. So he let me go stay with my mom for a week 'cause. I knew that it would be easier to get away from my mom that it was to get away from him. So now, I'm at my mom's house she gets up in the morning. She teaches at the Islamic School she's ahead of the Islamic Studies Department. There she goes to school and I immediately go through the yellow pages, find a lawyer get on the bus go to the lawyer here I am like full black Everything carry my baby with me and I ok in there, and the lawyer was just like she's just like an angel. She I went to her and I said I need full
custody, I need a restraining order and I need a divorce and you can't call me you can't contact. She was just like right away like yes, absolutely give me all the information. You have we're going to get this done and she did and Why? She couldn't contact me, but I contacted her to make sure that you know he was everything. Is gonna, be ok and he's going to be served with divorce papers? How come you didn't contact the police authorities who had first made contact with you with? yeah? I had no way of contacting them, they were contacting me, and so I wanted to I just it was like a little window of opportunity that I didn't even foresee yeah. So I just wanted to grab it when it was when it was there. It's kind of. Yeah it was survival is just like boom. You got to just go, go, go and
and and so then he coming to my mom's building and just screaming in Arabic. You know all of these threats and give me back my wife and blah blah blah. So of course, like a six foot, four egyptian man with long dark like nobody's going to open the door for him, and so I called nine one one and I'm like there's somebody screaming at them. Yeah. We know we got like twenty calls were on our way, and so they came upstairs to talk to me and they explain to me Restraining order only keeps them away from the building, but if I were ever to leave the house and to go somewhere that does it doesn't protect me from that like because I don't go to work or school or anything else. So all they can do is say he he is like a hundred. Fifty meters or whatever it is
Radius cannot come near your moms buildings, the hammer restraining order works out in Canada anyway, yes seems to defeat the purpose of restraining. Yeah. So I basically went under like house arrest, I'm arrested myself and I didn't leave that house until ceases, contacted me again and showed me a picture of him behind bars in Egypt, and then I felt like ok he's not going to be lurking around the corner. I can actually leave the house and that's when I started too that's when I got out and start do universities and starting my life over again, but so yeah. He ended up getting imprisoned in Egypt. He was sentenced to fifteen years hard labor, and that was like almost twenty years ago.
So I don't know if he survives or got out. I sincerely doubt that I don't really the the problem is. He was part of the second largest court case in egyptian history, like terrorism court case, the first one being Anwar Sadat's when he was assassinated for trying to have a peace treaty with that with Israel, so he was killed for for that. That was the largest, of course, and
my son's court case was the second largest, those very high profile, and that's why, whenever I ask it a journalist to investigate form eight journalists in Egypt, they get themselves in trouble because they're like it as soon as we start asking questions about him, the secret police come to awesome, they're like. Why are you asking about him, and so I've never been able to get an answer about where he is or if he survived, but imagine was Spence one day in the prison that are some
was supposedly that had if he lived spent fifteen years in an that one day that magic describes in his book. Radical makes me suspect that I saw him probably didn't last fifteen years, because it's a very it's a very harsh place right right, yeah, that's not where module was for four years now in Egypt, now 'cause he had a british passport, so they moved him out into the other one right so that you know they have two systems right. There's the regular one that the that the rest of the World C. And then there's the secret police on the secret prisons, and you know the government ones well. So now you're out and you're free
and you're getting educated. Then what caused you to take the additional step of being a vocal proponent of western values among westerners who don't want to hear about western values? So I you know, I took a history of religions course about you know fifteen years ago, then that was the first thread that helps me to unravel everything and for a long time I was like. Oh I'm a Muslim, but I'm not practicing, and it was oh I'm spiritual, but not religious and I went through all of these different iterations and I was just going through my own personal journey of growth in it and figuring who I was and- and It wasn't until the
bill, Maher episode with you and Ben Affleck that just brought every thing like it just it was like this little perfect microcosm of of everything right there and I was sitting there watching it feeling like Allen in that episode of so Seinfeld when everybody was like eating chocolate, bars and donuts with a knife and fork, and she stands up which she's like have you all gone mad literally how I felt like buddy on, like all my facebook, friends and stuff for, like so braiding Ben Affleck and they're, like oh yeah, that racist this guy SAM Harris and I was just like what planet of my living on what is wrong with you, people and it made me feel, So, like I needed to speak out, you know everybody's criticism of you was mainly that
American and that your white skinned and that you were a man- and so I'm okay, arab with brown, skin and a woman, and I'm saying, exact same thing that he's saying so. Maybe you'll now have to respond to the actual message versus stopping like not even listening to the message, because you can't get past the identity of the person. That is speaking the message- You know I'm from that world, so I knew that it was going to be a huge risk and it's going to be you I had change, my name. I changed my daughter's name. We had moved like, I was afraid for my life already, but so I, when I first started out, I was anonymous and I wanted to just write my book just to sort of throw it out there and say here is a perspective that you're missing. You know. I've got one
in this culture and one foot in that culture and I'm able to let you guys know what the misc Haitian here is: please listen to me. Here's my book read it and then just kind of keep myself at arm's length, but that didn't last very long. As soon as I started to speak out, I was immediately Contacted by so many people, all over the world that were. Relating to my story and then I started to feel ashamed. But here I am in a free western democracy afraid to put my face up and afraid to be vocal. When there's people in Pakistan that are like being killed, there's people that are being
you know hacked to death in the streets of Bangladesh AM and then here I am in Canada, saying I don't want to put my name and face out there. So basically they were asking me to be their voice. Like the I can. I can say it, they can't please say it for us, and so then I started to do that and of course, as soon as I started to do, with that. I started getting attacked by my own people, the liberals in the west that- and that was surprising to me- I mean I saw it been to you, and I knew that that was that. That was the a possibility, but I really wasn't expecting it to be as vicious as it was. I know I'm expecting and I'm prepared for all of the viciousness coming from the muslim community. Of course, they're going to hate me. I am speaking out against their religion that they
hold dear, and so that made sense to me and their indoctrinated, and I was that so why I get that, but I didn't you know when it from the left. When it, then I have zero patience for it. I have no like no tolerance, I did it just gets me like from zero to sixty right away because it makes zero sense to me and- and it's really hurtful I think- that's the bottom line Is it really hurts because I, when I was a Muslim, when I was a fundamentalist Muslim, I I believed in all of the or I was taught these right wing. Extremist talking points right. I was taught about Anti Semitism. I was taught to hate Jews. I was taught to hate
gay people. I was taught that women are less than men. I was taught all of these things and for me to risk my life and risk my daughter's life and fight tooth and nail to get out of that world in com into the light and leave the darkness behind and then to start. To have people in the lights attack me was it's just it's just a bit trail. It just fell is just really painful? I don't know how to reconcile that like that still makes me really sad whenever that happens. Yes,
we were talking last night, we had dinner last night with them Megan Phelps Roper, who was also just recently on the podcast, has a book out on follow about her experience in the Westboro Baptist Church in her experience, leaving at and it's fascinating and instructive, to see how differently he, your risks, responded to your your sensually have the same. So me. Yours, your story is one of greater abuse and greater danger, but is this still the same story of you? Two little girls get in. Dr needed into cults and managed to get out based on their own courage and insight and you guys not be more similar in all of the eleven variables and yet, in her case,
she's repudiating the most extreme form of fundamentalist Christianity, and because of that is the orthodoxy she's pushing against it checks. All the boxes on the left of this is this is all good right. You just got angry white man, grandfather, religious maniac, christian homophobe, were burning all that down and coming over to the left. There there's no problem and yet you because you're few dating Islam. Again all the scary detail amplified in your case. You try to port that over to the left and the ethical intuitions get all scrambled. There's this Grambling device of leftist politics that manages to make up down and down up here- and it's really interesting to see, and I think you and Megan could have a great conversation, but just you know
together in it a bit very interesting event in because, yes, I would love to have that, like as a public events with with Megan and and to, to compare. You know how, like you just said how the two of us had very similar experiences growing up, but you know Megan feels badly about the fact that She is, you know, celebrated and revered that she left essentially her family ray like it's just a group of less than a hundred people, where, as I as she does she, you know I've been through similar stuff as her, but course it was a much bigger hurdle getting away from a much larger, much more powerful group. So this is not like. I I feel like. I am grateful and happy that people are celebrating Megan and she absolutely deserves to be celebrated for what she has done and what she is doing, but
I get that same feeling that I got from that judge when the world on the left is basically saying we support I love and celebrate Megan because of what she has done, but you are horrible, bigot and we're going to try and silence. You On you know whether it's Amazon or Facebook or twitter, or wherever I try to speak, I'm being master ported and demonized an you know. Somebody like Jake, Tapper, try re, tweet me and all of a sudden, these people are telling and what a big get I am and how I'm at like a Nazi supporting cake, k, member or whatever well. This is what's amazing and not appreciated by well intentioned people. It's just that. There's a systematic nature to this and part of it is You have a very large muslim community who will
spam the world in in asian of any rational sound of this or that you're making. So when you get on Twitter, when you get on some, when you're interviewed on somebody else's Youtube, show say they will, demonetized, yes talking to immediately yeah and it's part of it I mean maybe algorithmic. It may just be the fact that if you get enough, people reporting something good alert, were twitter or or at any platform will just flag get you shut it down just to try to figure out what's happening, but you know I've had to get you reinstated on twitter twice. I think yes right, sick. If someone, you know some White woke millennial over there. Can't figure out what's going on they, they see, you know your tweets and someone's reported them and they just go again. They can't do the arithmetic yeah and it hurt it that same hurts that same sense of betrayal. From when I was a kid and the judge telling me
your experience doesn't matter. Your pain. Doesn't matter is the same thing I'm getting now is just being on a much much larger scale, and it it is. So you know it's not just hurtful for me on a personal level. It it's hurtful because I am trying to speak up. I free. I'm happy, I'm golden right, I'm married to a wonderful man. We have another dog Together, I have two great kids. I have you know tenure position as a college, professor, I'm good. I could just go on with my life and just live it happily and care about any of anything, but I feel compelled to speak up because of, like I mentioned all of these people that have been contacting me from all over the world
Telling me you can be our voice. You know I tried to take a break from twitter women from IRAN writing to me. Saying no, don't do with you know we need you just you know, meditate or something and get back on. I have a responsibility, and so that's why it hurts so extra. Much is because I'm not just speaking up for me. I'm speaking up for all of these people. So when you silence me, you're, silencing all these people, as well and when you're ignoring me, you're, ignoring all those people as well, and so I feel like I'm failing them and and that's why I get so. That's why I get so upset about it. Yeah. Well, that's why you're one of my heroes so great to finally get on the podcast. It was absolute honor SAM! Thank you! So Trent writing inviting me. If you find this podcast table. There are many ways you can support it
Review it on Itunes or Stitcher or wherever you happen to listen to it. You can share social media with your friends And blog about it or discuss it on your own podcast or you can support it directly and you can do this by subscribing through my website at Samharris, DOT, org and there you'll find some scriber only content, like my ask me anything episodes as well as the bonus question, for many of these interviews. You'll also get a Lance tickets to my live events you'll find
Transcript generated on 2019-11-17.