I welcome gonna make it says. I guess this is SAM Harris, ok, some housekeeping today, so a clear up, a little confusion about the difference between waking up my meditation app and this podcast making sense, and also talk about how I see them interacting go in for The pond cast, as many of you know, was originally called waken up and why that was. I have no idea. I had written a book by that title and apparently I just felt I had run out of titles as over for the first hundred episodes yourself

that's what the pipe house was called and then I realized I wanted to release a meditation app, which was a direct descendant of the book and waken up was obviously the perfect title. Four and really had never been the best name for podcast so we rename the pike has making sense at that point, which was a much better name for it. Given the diversity of topics, I touch her, but the net result is that many people are still confused about what the podcast is called and when someone refers to the way a ban on line. Many people think they're talking about the pockets, and this confusion is compounded because I have now opened a separate conversation track in the EP, which is essentially a new podcast on topics more narrowly focused on meditation and then your mind, and ethics in general, what it means to live an examined life and to make matters worse. Sometimes one of these conversation seems worth Erin, both honey app and on the palm cast like the one,

Psychedelic with Gryphus or on addiction and craving would judge and brewer. So I occasionally do that, and this is also confusing and and if the conversation is just on the waking, Bab making sense podcast subscribers get access to those conversations. When the log into my website So I understand why some of you don't know what the hell I'm up to over here. First waking up and making sense really are separate endeavours, despite the occasional sharing of content. So the basic picture is, if you want all of my podcast content, plus the podcast like conversations I have on the waking up that you need to subscribe to the making sense podcast through my website, SAM harassed at work and if you're not subscribe to the podcast you'll, be hearing, half episodes and missing. Other content is behind the Paypal. If you

how to use the waking up app, which is actually much more than the conversations I've been having their it's a whole curriculum that I'm continuing to develop and I'm bringing on other teachers as well. The way to get that is to subscribe- to waken up either to the ILO S or Android apps or even use the web based version and waken up tat come and in either case. If you can't afford a subscription, you can have one for free for making sense. You just need to send an email to support at San Harris, DOT, org and for waking up send one Support at waking up tat come not talked about my reasoning here before his variant. For me that money not be the reason why someone doesn't get access to my digital content. That's true both for the podcast end for the ep. Now, as far as the difference between these two platforms The waken up app is where I'm talking about first person approaches to understanding the nature of the mind.

And by understanding I dont mean just conceptual understand, and I mean experiencing the mind in a new way. So this is what I'm focused on things. Meditation, and now psychedelic acts and ethics and related topics the maidens has podcast is what I'm talking about everything that interests me from physics to politics and as its head from time to time a conversational appear in both places, because I think it will be of interest to both audiences, but most of what I have to say about meditation and first person, methods of exploring consciousness will be set on the app not on this podcast because it still seems like most people Listen. This podcast are not really interested in meditation. I've heard from many people some version of I really like it. When you talk about current events and science and things like a

where the brain and behavior, where the conflict between religion and science, but I'm just not interested in the stuff because got the stink of religion, all over it and the fact that his Buddhism and not Christianity or Islam, just doesn't matter, is still irrational and probably bullshit and other people say things like why I've tried meditation and it did nothing for me and I think you're, probably just fooling yourself, just like people who believe in God there's no way. You can know you're not falling herself just imagining that your having certain experiences in meditation, where you're just imagining that they have any significance. Well only so much pushing, I can do locked door and, as I said Jane, This punk ass will cover topics of a much wider interest, then meditation or the nature of consciousness. But in today's podcast I want to give you sceptics, one more shot at understanding what I'm up to some winifred-

and a conversation that I recently recorded for the waking up app and I'm doing this for two reasons. The first is that their specific insights, into the nature of mind that I consider to be the most important things. I've ever lie, and and they're, not a matter of simply believe in something new certainly not matters of faith and the fact that some of these insights have been best described in eastern traditions, like Buddhism, doesn't make them buddhist, No more than the fact that Isaac Newton was Christian, makes the laws of motion somehow Christian and

in size are not merely important for one's wellbeing, their important, intellectually. They clear up philosophical and ethical and even scientific confusion and the truth is I've been very slow to appreciate this have been slow to understand just how much intellectual work is being done for me by the fact that I've had certain experiences in meditation, and these experiences have made certain features of the mind obvious to their questions about things like free will or the hard problem of consciousness or the nature of Marie

quality that people continually get hung up on and I often can't see the basis for their confusion and, more and more, I see that this basis is not conceptual is if they can't actually notice certain things about their own experience. Take free will, for instance, this a topic of covered a lot people find it endlessly bewildering. The truth is we have every reason to believe that free will is an incoherent concept. It just doesn't make sense in a deterministic universe. And it doesn't make any sense, if you add a dose of randomness to the universe either. And this has been obvious for probably four hundred years. And yet I keep running into smart people. I think that free will is a real intellectual problem

that we know we have it in some sense. We have some purified version of it and we find ourselves at a kind of intellectual stalemate when debating it, philosophically or scientifically. Now, of course, urban people on the podcast who have agreed with me people. Robert suppose Gay and Jerry COIN, but even in agreement they are taken in by the illusion of free will, The reality is that if you can pay sufficient attention to your mind, the illusion disappears, and it becomes obvious that everything is just a rising on its own, including ones, thoughts and intentions and other men. Oh precursors, to action. There is just no fine, grained experiential coral it to the common notion of free will. That's why I say my book on that I back. The illusion of free will is itself an illusion. There is no illusion of free will so being better observer of nature.

One's own mind, isn't just a matter of improving one's wellbeing, though that is one of the core purposes of meditation is also an intellect The project is a matter of bringing ones first, person understanding once subjective experience into closer alignment with a third person, understanding that is an objective understanding of how the world is in meditation. Is the training that allows you to do this. Consider the analogy that I've sometimes used to the optic blind spot You all know you have a blind spot in your visual field and if your most of you were taught to see it in school, you made to marks on piece of paper. You can one I stared at one of those marks and brought the paper closer until the second mark disappeared. The very simple procedure. Subject:

Thirdly, that allows you to see something right on the surface of consciousness, that you would otherwise bend your lifetime overlooking and the blind spot actually predicted they, done our growing understanding of the anatomy of the eye, and then someone develop the simple procedure by which one can find it. I saw in seeing the blind spot you're actually seen something subjectively as a matter of direct experience. That reveals a deeper truth at the I well. I can also say that the non existence of an unchanging self, in the middle of experience, an ego, the feeling that we call, I is also predicted by the structure and

some of the brain, the feeling of being an ego in your head, a thinker in addition to the next arising thought can't be ones true point of view and in fact, the feeling that such a self exists is the same feeling to which people attached this notion of free will. There is no self who could enjoy the spur. His power of free will- and this is directly suggested by what we know is going on in the world and in the world inside our heads there's no account of Neuro Anatomy or Neuro physiology. It would make sense of an unchanging self freely, exercising its will and meditation, ultimately is a very simple procedure that allows one to discover. The absence of this

itself directly, and here you can see that reasonable sounding objections from sceptics aren't reasonable. Consider the one I just mentioned: what, if you're wrong, what, if you just fine herself, how is this different from below in God. Right. Well, ok, imagine if someone said this to you about the optic blind spot right. You ve run this experiment And you can do it again right now, you can interrogate your conscious perception of the visual field directly right now and see that dog on the page, disappear and reappear and disappear and reappear? You can do this on demand. You can do it a in times in the next thirty seconds? And what have you found yourself?

into an otherwise brilliant person, a professional philosopher or physicist. But this is a person who clearly had not picked up a piece of paper, much less. What a mark on it to do the experiment and then imagine when you explain the procedure to them. They had an orange I meant for why there was no point in doing it where they said they had bad experiences with paper in the past. Their mother was really into paper and they just have bad associations with it, or maybe they claim to have done the experiment, but from everything they say about experience you can tell they were holding the paper wrong or they had failed to close one eye or they didn't know which dot they should be looking at Perform the blind spot experiment now or just remember clearly how decisive it is and, Take a moment to imagine hearing these kinds of objections from smart people. And then you'll get a sense of what my experiences like in these conversations and the truth.

Is this analogy isn't sufficient cause? You also have to imagine that seen the blind spot directly is much more valuable. Then it is, but imagine that seeing the blind spot significantly improved your life but imagine I gave you a capacity to let go of negative emotions more or less immediately and what of it allowed you to understand other things, intellectually and ethically, that you couldn't understand before it and that component you'll get a sense of why then banging on about the importance of meditation, even in situations where the person, I'm speaking with, seems less than interested the punk. I did with Adam Granton Richard Dawkins last year, are good examples of this. I'm writing my hobbyhorse about meditation to the evident frustration of my guess, The reality is, there's not many people in a position to do this. There are not many

people who understand the science and the relevant philosophy and are committed to fully coming out from under the shadow of religion, who no down to their toes. We have to get out of the religion business and who yet understand what consciousness like beyond the illusion of the self, and if you ve heard me, about this before you know, I'm not wholly myself up as a perfect example of this understanding. I still consider myself a student of it. I merely practicing listeners and in making the recommendation I make about meditation is not narrowly first on the peripheral scientific claims for it that have been so hyped in the media as a tool of stress reduction or for improving one's health. It probably does reduce stress, and that's probably good for you, but that's not its core purpose. It's a much deeper and

rest, psychologically and intellectually than that. Imagine hearing that someone is plain grandmaster level chess just to reduce stress right. That's not likely the whole motivation, whether not chess can reduce stress in the end. So if I've established any credibility with you as a thinker as an honest broker of information and as a critic of religion, please take this for what it's worth there is something to under. Stand here, more precisely, there's something to experience here that will change your understanding of many other things and the fact that traditional efforts to have his insights have tended to occur and really

this context and in new age and cultic contacts the fact that some people who talk about the illusion of the self turn out to be new age frauds, for instance, that's inconvenient, yes, is distracting, but it's your relish, in the end? James Watson's user interface issues as a person and his resulting professional problems. Have no implications for the actual structure of dna, so this Epps the Pike ass. I want to give you one more look at the kinds of things I'm talking about almost entirely in the way, a pipe and to do that, I want to introduce you to Richard Lang. He was able long time student of Douglas Harding, who have mentioned several times Douglas, was an architect by training and then devised his own very creative way of talking about the nature of awareness

he really stepped out of every traditional way of teaching and came up with his own metaphors and procedures, and the core of his teaching surrounds this experience of what he called having no head, and he wrote a book by that title on having no head and have long thought that, while there are some liabilities with this way of teaching and practicing and discuss some of those with Richard here it is a unique Lee accessible wave on masking this experience of selflessness many people get it. Who unconvinced would not get it by being given more traditional instructions now what they make of. It is another thing, it's quite possible to not see its significance. Initially and again I talk about that with Richard, but introducing Richard in this context seems especially apropos because Douglas

Harding and his teaching were at one point singled out for criticism by some very smart people. In fact, by my friend and in it and his collaborator Douglas half in their book the minds I and I wrote about this- My book waking up because this was really a crystal clear moment of again very smart people who consider their full time job to think about the nature of the mind having no idea what they are talking about when it comes to the first person method of investigate. In it so before I bring Richard into the conversation, I want to read this action from my book. Waking up titled having no head the basic insiders this that Douglas noticed there from the first person point of view when he looked out at the world. He did not see his

we face, he did not see his own head rather where he knew his head to be. There was simply the world ranks, when he was looking at another person's face- and they were looking back at him, and he was feeling implicated by their gaze because he knew what they were staring out. They were staring at his face You noticed that as a matter of direct experience, there's no face there and he found that he was simply the space. In which they were appearing I'll. Give you the quotation that passed at our Dennett accepted in their book and then criticized just give you a sense of the intellectual impasse here, since the quotation from Douglas Harden, then I'll give you half debtors reaction to it. What actually happened was something absurdly, simple and and

fact. I stop thinking a peculiar quiet, an odd kind of alert, limpness or numbness came over me. Reason and imagination, all mental chatter died down, for once words really failed me past and future dropped away. I forgot who and what I was my name manhood animal hood. All that can be called mine It was as if I had been born that instant brand new, mindless innocent of all memories there existed. Only the now that present moment there was clearly given in it to look was enough. I found was catchy trouser legs terminal downwards and a pair of brown shoes catchy sleeves- many sideways and a pair of pink hands and a catchy shirt front, terminating upwards, absolutely nothing whatsoever. Certainly, not in ahead. It took me

no time at all, to notice that this nothing this whole were ahead should have been. Was no ordinary vacancy, no mere nothing on Contrary it was very much occupied, he was a vast emptiness vastly filled, and nothing that found room for everything, room for grass, trees, shadowy distant hills and far above them. No peaks like a row of angular clowns ride in the blue sky. I had ass, the head and gained a world here it was the superb seen brightly shining in the clear air alone and unsupported mysteriously suspended in the void, and- and this was the real me, call the wonder and delight utterly free of me unsteady by any observer. Its total presence was my total absence body and soul. Lighter than air clearer than glass altogether released from myself,

I was nowhere around. There arose no questions, no reference beyond the experience itself, but only peace and quiet joy, and this is, asian of having dropped an intolerable burden I had been before, I'm the one thing that is always present and without which I'm blind. Indeed, this marvellous substitute for ahead head this unbounded clarity, this luminous and absolutely pure void, which nevertheless is rather than contains all thanks for, however carefully I attend. I failed to find here even so much as a blank screen on which these mountain and Sun and sky are projected or a clear mirror in which they are reflected or a transparent lends or aperture through which they are viewed, still less a soul or a mind to which they are presented or a viewer. However, shadow who is distinguishable from the view. Nothing whatever intervenes, not even that

Atheling an and elusive obstacle called distance, the huge blue sky, the pink edged whiteness of the snows the sparkling green of the grass. How can these be remote there's nothing to be remote from the headless void, refuses his definition and location it is not round or small or big, or even here, as distinct from there. Okay. So that's the end of Harding's quotation and then here is my follow up Text Harding's assertion that he has no head. Must be read in the first person, since the man was not claiming to have been literally decapitated from a first person point of view, his emphasis on headless as a stroke of joy Yes, that offers an unusually clear description of what it's like to glimpse the non duality of consciousness. Here. Half debtors quote reflections on hardens account. So now I'm quoting Hosty at her in the book he caught up with my friend

and then it we ve here been presented with a charmingly childish and solemn cystic view of the human condition. It is something that, at an intellectual level, offends and pauses can anyone since, really entertain such notions without embarrassment, yet to some private level in us. It speaks clearly that is the level which we cannot accept the notion of our own death. End quote: ok, so back to me, having expressed here pity for batty old Harding Hallstatt proceeds to explore. In a way his insides as a solemn, cystic denial of mortality, the perpetuation of the child, illusion. That quote, I am necessary ingredient of the universe and quote. However, Harding's point was that I, is not even an ingredient necessary or otherwise. Of his own mind, what Hallstatt or fails to realise is that hardens account contains a precise empirical instruction

look for whatever it is. You are calling I without being distracted by even the subtle IST undercurrent of thought, and notice what happens the moment you turn consciousness upon itself. This illustrated very common phenomenon. In scientific and secular circles, we have a contemplative like Harding to the eye of anyone familiar with the experience of self transcendence has described. And in a manner approaching perfect clarity, and we have a scholar like Hoss debtor, they celebrated contributor to our modern understanding of the mind who dismisses him as a child? Ok, that's a very clear illustration of the intellectual impasse, and upon hearing my conversation with Richard Lang, many of you may still be stuck on half debtors side of the impasse. You might just think what are they talking about? Of course, I can't see my head. What do you care?

is he here, that's where you stuck. All I can do is encourage you to keep looking. Richard line was a long time student of Douglas hardens and studied with him for thirty years or so he's written several books based on his own experience, teaching and also brought together. Much have done MRS Work and he can find more of his material at headless, dot, org and why haven't met him. I think you'll hear sounds like just about the nicest person on earth if we have a global contest for the nicest per I think I would nominate Richard just based on his voice alone,

This is not a podcast that you can profit from while multitasking you shouldn't be workin out in the gym. You really have to give this your full attention. If you're gonna get anything from it in the first half we talk about, Richard's live and his experience with Douglas and in the second, we get into the details of the practice and there's no pay wall. Episode. I consider this a public service announcement and now I'm Richard Lange, I am, with Richard Lang. Richard thanks rejoining me the pleasure to be here some. So how do you describe what it is? You do Well, I I don't know, really describe it as seeing who you really are, and it is paying attention to what it's like to be yourself from you,

own point of view, as opposed to what you are for others so if someone was looking at me, they'd see Richard sitting at the desk and obviously see my head and background. My point of view. The first person point of view is quite different. I don't see my head I'm looking out of open space. I am space for the world. I would say such a very different points, view from the objective one, we were on the person, and I accept both- I love both I would say that this experience, which is so obvious Listen has to do, is look and noticed sweater, They can see their own face, I'm sure sure they can't, and instead you see the world.

But it is essentially a nonverbal experience and you can't get it wrong. You can't have see you're no face who see it bit blow. And I would say, I'm convinced it's the same for us all, we're all looking. To this single eye. This openness, but we ve got different view out and different responses to it. So we'll have that first daughter, now. I want to get into the experience component of this, but we should talk about how you got into this. This position of teaching people about the nature of awareness and dealt with will talk about tell your teacher Douglas Harden, who have mentioned many times, both my avatar, my podcast, but before we get a Douglas, did you have A background in meditation or any other contemplative tradition before you stumbled upon Douglas in a way I did. I mean I met

This when I was young, I was seventeen that I had when I was about ten. I, the headmaster, my school, told a story which was story from someone calls the venerable bead. Who is this? holy man in the North of England, and I dont know ninth century or something I'll be, tells the story of a king and having a kind of feast in winter in a big hole and others fire and then through a window flies a bird crossed the room and out of the window, and Bade said this is what our life is and who where we came from and who knows where we're guy and had at my school to restore who knows about ten, and I got my imagination. I thought what is out that window.

And so I got interested in and Christianity at the time. That was the context. Really in the mystical side of it, but at the next school. There was no one saw the really interested in that, and it was the late sixties. So I started reading around and reading about other religions, and I got in Stood in Hindu is hidden in Buddhism, and I wanted to get enlightened fifty in fixed and then I read a book on Zen by Cackle Christmas Humphreys, and there was a note about the british society, some schooling in England, and so I decided to go with my brother. We went from the of England down to near London, and we went to this summer? School is very confusing. To begin with, all kinds of different approach

Then one day someone said are you ought to go to the workshop informal Workshop Douglas Harding this afternoon and I haven't heard of him, but we went and a glass got as to point the finger back, don't know face in and look And rather fortuitously, I found what I was looking for. And Douglas was very, Secondly- and I said to anyone interested come and visit, he lived in Suffolk in a sort of east of England. So when I got back home in my brother, my mom Looked up ass, she was word, we're gonna, join a cold or somehow realise were fine and then was interested herself. So around Christmas time we all went down by two.

In and say we Douglas. While I was as usual about ten fifteen people there and it was a weekend he had two houses from one of them was used solely for this, for people interested in what we called seeing And that really was the beginning of a friendship was jugglers how'd. He had many many friends and he never charged. A penny is always just comment common be with us. You know if you're interested in this and for whatever reason I I also fell drawn to actually sharing it most people don't really, but I did- and I was I recognise somehow at an early age, that this was a fantastically effective, simple way forwards for intern way in terms of sharing the experience of who one is,

and so were shortly after that I went to Universe, did not far from home in Cambridge and I to go down every other weekend and started to go to his workshops and just to help out and eyes, I swear to God, use to the experiments and the map and and all of that site? I started there. It was just the way it occurred to me to be involved in charity. So even while I was at university, I was running workshops in my college room. What what are you staring at Cambridge? Well, I'm studying history, love The main thing I was studying was seeing, who you really learned you know what I say I used to go down to Douglas his house.

All the time and that made many friends and where one of the things that was true about that community because he really made friends his friends were people who are interested in this, and it was clear that there was no hierarchy at this level cause you got half see, you know fate, who see better than tomorrow. Someone else and Douglas always work was very kind of strong on that. So I swore to affirm, look back. I kind of grew up in a minute community waste, who you as we call it, was normal. All my friends were headless. Soldiers are people who have heard me speak about Douglas WAR or now that it's been a context of his

really is central, empirical injunction, which is to look for your head and notice that you you fail to find it and when will go over that a bit, but it was so interesting about Douglas. Isn't he came with truly novel practices and analogies in framing and why is of looking into awareness is his own methodology which really is very effective for so many people. I would argue that it has a at least one pitfall which rule which will get into and it touches this point you made about there being no hierarchy and no no way of doing it wrong or no way of a once. You ve seen that you ve seen it and I think, there's their Stephanie some caviar to issue there, but before we get there, let us talk about Douglas The man for for a moment, because I think

I was mistaken about a few points of his biography when I've spoken about his inside I I believe I believe I have this from his book on having no head that he first noticed this when he was in Nepal staring out at that the Himalayas from this place called knocked. But from reading your you, if you ve, publish day, essentially egg a graphic biography, the man with no head, and it seems that he had this insight into headless ness earlier. So maybe you can just give us at a brief tour of dogmatism, spiritual biography. Yes, well, he grew up no exclusive Plymouth brethren, which was a very strict christian group and his father, was very keen very dedicated adverse. My group in the east of England- and I assume you know,

have prayers twice a day in four times on Sunday. Is God network, but it twenty one he left and his Reason for leaving was that. Well, you might be right, but I am not going to accept that you're right discuss. You say you are, I want to find out for myself and it hurt his father's father cut off from him. And anyway Douglas when his own way, but he had in profoundly affected by his father. During the first World WAR, the Germans bombed, the town where there were the seaside town and his father refused to go into the cinema. Seek to shelter but got no family on their knees. Praying well bombs came out. Will. The shells gave over and he said, I'm gonna put me

faith in God Well Douglas rejected. The sort of kind of you know the peripheral of the religion, but he was affected by this deep faith. Somehow and this sensitive the important yes, meaning of that that anyway twenty one he left and then he started inquiring, he it was, training and then working as an architect in London. Some inquiry into what he was nothing. He often used to say the basic thing that amazes me is that I am uniform interest. How amazing just to be. I mean I might not be While I am I'd like to find out who I am what I am and had already rejected what the Plymouth brethren was saying. So at this point to us, and to take on another dogma, Irishman look for himself and he stopped to really by recognising that

he was made of less depending on where the observer war, so six vetoes, human, but closer to the cells and then further away. You is a city, aura species and this sort of enabled him to. So the crossed the boundary between his skin and the rest of the world and. He began developing this feeling that he was this view that here, I can only and with less and of course, when you realise that you must ask what's at the center and in nineteen thirty, seven here he's already written a book by then, and He went to India with his wife and Andy. They had two children there and war broke out, and although he was successful arctic. There. His main interest was its into what am I got books of notes from those years drawings and maps,

men are kind of things with these lash anyway. He in about nineteen, forty three had come to the position that here lies use made of letters. The near you got to the centre. The less there was made sense that he was kind of no thing at the center, but he he couldn't seem to expand that it was just a gas and then he was reading a book where there was an article of the section by and Mark physicist and markets are fairly well known picture drew a self portrayed, not what he looked like six feet, but of what he looked like from his own point of view, which it is headless with his news. We know about ten feet off. If international- and I know you knows it goes from this evening- to the floor- when Douglas saw this, and it was probably

sitting in the imperial library or somewhere in Calcutta. He suddenly thought said, and it was not a big while he used to say it was just like a cool recognition. Ah that's what I'm at zero. That's what I am. Ah, you see in on having no head, as you quite rightly said he talks about working in their licensing there, and they here is this a while a united walking him less and I did see it there, but that was just the sort of way of staff. Putting the book recently, I'm going through all his books, and I was going through He'S- got hold of the books. My suitcase and when I read out through, could he made notes and all the books and when he read

there are many re, read them and so on, and there is such a little earth section on Sittore on the well experience- and I are just underneath it douglas- is written Darjeeling exclamation mark as allies. I think you know after seeing it down in Calcutta, he did go several times to that part, walk in the hills and must have had a new, understandably, a powerful experience of being space for the mountains. So I think, is all true in a way and what was his connection to other Contemplatives and teachers of the time as a he began teaching wonder he began he can earnest was it the fifties who happened was he was very much on his own in India. I wasn't hid. It didn't go around any girls. He was totally working on his own doing. Research you know

And when he saw this, he realized in forty three realize it hit God he came back to England and ninety forty five, just toward the end of the war, and he said to his wife, who had already returned. I'm gonna take a year off to write my book. Well. In the end, a year turned into five years and Hugh. You he was on his own five years. Fourteen hours a day, seven days a week, one holiday in all that time. From the first day, The book is a hierarchy of heaven and earth. It is huge six hundred pages just about huge, and then he condensed it because he knew it couldn't real. Published that and Cs Louis read it and that's what how it took off the tears Louis. Wrote back and said. I have never been so drunk in a book with a book in ocean to read. Books in World WAR one was hunting and so on began to put him on the map, but it wasn't teach

he was a writer who was a thinker and then he got back. This was the in the fifties got back into architecture ass, he hadn't been running. Any money became very successful, continued to write a bit here and there, but at the end of the fifty is He felt he was in the doldrums and he wasn't getting the message across and at that time he came across Jan through Suzuki really and for the first time he came across people. The old then masses you're talking about their regional face. You know the face she had before there were speaking his language and at the same time, he was came across Rahman Ohashi, who influenced him and affected him with. I think, with his just total dedication the drama was about was met, so at the end of the first

It is because of this discovery of Sudan. He then got in touch with the buddhist society for our. Maybe there are some people there who will understand what I am talking about, because he had not shed it really with anyone. He was on his own with it and then of Christmas unfreezing Way way recognise the Douglas had something here and they published on having no head, and that was his first really popular book, which of course, he starts with that. You know the best in my life was walking. Them lies all of that and so had no head, but it wasn't until nineteen sixty four that boat was published in sixty one that he really share for the first time, a song which who, with his secretary in his architectural practice and it blew her mind, it blew his mind that it blew her mind and I could die now have shared the one person

and then the next year up in North Manchester, my card things are taking off. I shouted with two more people to do so This is early days now around that time. He built his second house just over the road from his first house, and that became just had known. Why really was building that became a potential meeting place for people interest in this and he He was teaching comparative religion and here in the course he would share the headless experience and so people began gradually to meet and that's whether community started in the mid sixties- and it was at the towards the end of this text- is that he began to invent his experiments.

And he always wanted to share and he was doing before they experience really many experiments were always there and away because the experience of the headless nature so direct, you know the term got the idea of the experiments in late sixties, nearly seventy. I mean it I simply to reproduce the took without with all the experiment. And I was around then- and we were making them up- and I hope to make the tool kit we used to go down for weaken, you know work on it and it will happen. Very creative use, always try. Mingled with a new way of kind of sharing it. He was. He was on the job, twenty four seven. So if you went- to his house. You couldn't go unless you are interested in seeing as soon as you.

Walked in the door before you walked in the door. You, however, you were, you noticed, that's what it was all about, and everyone else why and had the booty society they said you always know I dug societies, friends because an awful lot so he really, he just followed his instinct with any new wanted to share it. He knew it got something really powerful. I mean he just believed in it data. This is a breakthrough. We ve been talking about the true nature of centuries. Now you can see it is hidden. I can point out it now. You can see your face. To no face is not extra concrete, there's no face with others you're looking out of the single sky, so he wrote a book in the seventies called assigned to the first person. Not this is a science in the sense of objects. You look at the size of the subject and he said this, the your

experience of yourself, which is space for the world, is valid, as other people experience a view which is an object in the world. He is so were here, never stop Tommy. I just never stopped. Who is always on the job that he is about to model in the nineteenth century, the Universe explorer model, he wrote many books article traveled incessantly, then the man when they had you detail at least, two of his meetings with prominent Buddhists at the time one without Watson, one with Philip gambler yet seem like once he had a meeting of minds and with cap low he Didn'T- or at least it was an odd encounters deserve. Is there more than a story Well, we can't blow. The first meeting was good and cattle. First came and visited Douglas at his house at the end

was a warm occasion, and I came all the way into the country was on it passing through England, any with a monk. You know they made the trip, and he said this is the spiritual set of England. Ass was his common and invited Douglas Rochester, and but the second time like in my book cap glow sought. Who did this then testing thing where you around and Douglas didn't go for that? He said I have just come to share something on come to be tested? But I've read those letters have to order with letters and stuff and those letters off to his where Did they warn between each other and Douglas didn't held a grudge at all? You know. That's kind of it then stick to use paradox and and weird tests to demonstrate the nature mine, but I can certainly misfire and that this famous story,

cholera budget was a great tibetan meditation master meeting. I think it was said, Zadok Hiroshi, I forget, which then match. I think it was a Zaki and at one point the rose she held up an orange and said: what is it and Calo turned his translator said: don't they have oranges and can you get the culture so diminished, each other there? Okay, so lets us jump into the the experience and and and do our best to introduce people to it. I guess we should say that. Unfortunately, many of the experiments that Douglas devised are highly visual and we can talk a little bit about the primacy of vision as eight as a context in which to to see this experience and misses the kind of thing that can be recognised with your eyes closed to, but

How many of us will have found that say a by subtler thing to recognize to make us with that limitation on I've been just knowing that we can get people instructions that? I do with their open eyes at that reference vision is the primary sense, but we just have to recognize that you know what this is going out in pure audio form, so we have to I'll have to be intelligible. So would that proviso? How would you instruct? How do you instruct someone who is contemplating this for the first time? well, I I could do. Did you just take you in their mood? Have you ever noticed a little process that includes closed eyes and you know being aware that were just audio here. Ok, well,. As you say, it is a lot of the spanish all visual and you can just notice. You can't see your face now

but a very simple direct thing to do, which I think is worth doing is to actually point so as the listeners willing to play at it. I would ask you just get the index finger, be right hand or something and point out, so you that she got it could it just making clear the arrow of attention is out to remove the boy in it, the tab, Laura a virus or a window and you're looking only finger and there's a thing now and I want you to do- is just turn your finger. Andrew natively, Greece, around two point back at the place, looking out off and notice what you see there or what you don't see cause. I don't see anything right now that in my face I don't see any shape or movement or anything. So I'm pointing out sand pointing at my no face at her this space.

Here the stillness silence even and this outward an inward- is a two way pointing thing. So that's the kind of useful gesture to bear in mind so just starting visualize it well, you can't see your face. You say that would pointing arrow of attention is binding. It no thing space. This is a non verbal experience, so I'm putting words on it. I am absolutely convinced everyone is aware- and I can see this because you can't see your head. Instead, you see the world, but you may choose different word from me so that we accept that. So I just like you first noticed several things about the view out from this space that it's a sort of oval view the field of view and it fades out all the way around. So whatever you looking eyes most in focus men,

When you get to the edge as it were, theater and then you can see nothing around it and I take that seriously sort of hanging in nowhere. The view is nothing above have nothing below it. Nothing there side of it just hanging in space and its single. So if you look at any to object, so will I want bigger than that you can compare the size relative. I say now, look at the whole view. How big is it and there isn't a second one compared with so I can't say I bigoted, and so the two things to know so well to three wanted sing

All of you out, I might hear about your view, but I dont experience it. My own experience, accusing the app is a matter of experience is just one view it fades out into nothing it's nor inside anything. I can't say I bigoted now close your eyes now so you got a kind of darkness which again is in Europe, as you say, is kind of lit up here. It's not just nothing, the something there. Let's call it darkness is not uniform darkness. How big is that dogmas while there isn't a second one, to compare it with a single so county, and is it inside anything? Well, just like the visual view

I could say in space or awareness or consciousness. Now I move my attention to sounds, and I hear this voice coming and going and other sounds so if I use the same kind of words, the field of sound, like the field of vision, feel that all this out, how big is it. While there isn't a second one two compared with, and is it inside anything no or I sat in silence to these sound coming out of the silence going back in, and I I I think you see here being the first person language, I'm the space in which the darkness is happening. I am the silence and wish the sounds happening.

Now I move my attention to body sensations and put aside my memory, my so to map and just go by the sensation, see lots of different temptations now how big as a whole, feel the sensation, whether isn't a second one, to compare it with the single currency. How big it is and is it inside anything in this awareness now I didn't, if I, with my body, sensations, often enough serve if I say that I can't say I beg the field of sensation ass, I can say across her big. I am I'm not inside anything else.

I'm single I'm alone and then finally, we can move our attention to thoughts and feelings, to think of a number that thought c and think of the face of a friend in the affection. You feel feelings, secure, anything problem and anxiety that comes up challenge you ve got now. How big is this very complicated field of mind, while I don't experience a second one to compare it with and there. Is it well, I think, as the Zen people's heads it's in no mind all my thoughts, like my voice are coming out of nowhere and disappearing again, and this issue I am this is open, space and this who we all are I don't know what you're thinking SAM or what you're feeling, but I'm convinced

you're here the same individual space containing your particular view, see So now, when we open our eyes, were what really changes the space is full of colours and shapes magic, but one is one is still this single space that contains everything So that's a kind, that's pointing out the obvious when I was a great tour. So let us start with the place. We started with it. The open eyed, considering pointing at ones on face noticing that there's nothing to see me and I want to just try to channel the the scepticism that term some listeners may feel, and this may be the kind of thing you ve heard a lot but and if you can think of other challenges that

on occur to me feel free to raise them? But I can imagine someone saying well, of course I can't see my fate Sorry, I can't see my own eyes, but I know. There there right into it. What's the was the significance of this? You seem to be suggesting that there's something profound about the eye not being able to see self, but I know I have a head. I know I have a face and I have eyes in the middle of it. What's the point of this? Yes, I think there are different ways of approaching this end. I'm really not in the business, is trying to persuade or convince anyone for a start. I just happened to be there and if people are interested respond, but if there are interesting I you you say that my head is here: you see my eye, and I know you can see a true say three feet or six feet away. But what I

depends on the ranger, where you are looking for and if you come up to me, can you see he said my face, but come closer you'll see a patch of skin and come even closer. You got the right instruments in you'll, find cells, molecules, atoms, particles, almost nothing and I'm right zoonotic were absolutely nothing here. But I am aware and for everything, so I say what so good ahead of the eyes, but it to matter where I keep them and I keep him out there in the mirror and I keep them in other people at arrange their. I need them, but they're not central, now. Obviously this is a very different way of appreciating what one is, but it does actually fit with what science,

sex and what we ve done uses accept what everyone tells is about who we are from their point of view and say: well, you must know more about what I am than I do, and what one I'm suggesting is my point of view, which is headless eyeless tongue less. Without anything, it is valid here and when I touch my head, you say: look I, u can touch her as well, for you, I'm touched my, but for me, man disappear and there is insufficient in awareness, and this is taking it as its given and if someone dozen you know go along with that, there's nothing. I can do really, and you know that at this does make sense but with whether someone says yes, no or maybe too, it is rather mysterious to me her this guy.

To what are really them and the unique strength and liabilities of this way of pointing because you I've been convinced for a long time that that what Douglas was getting out here really is the the fundamentally insight into selflessness that has provoked in Zog ten point out instruction or is sought by really every method of of meditation. Certainly in the east is what the advice teachers or are talking about people like Romano marshy in thing that the headless insight gets had almost uniquely well, is how how available the glimmer of this quality of consciousness how to write on the surface, how there's really mean there's no such thing as depth. This is no there's no place to go deep within through a practice of meditation to see this.

And in their many analogies reviews to indicate how, on the surface, says, and so you would want to now. Jive uses is seeing the optic blind spot and they won't want once you are taught how to do that. Will then, then that, in your seen, isn't far away is not deep within its in some some place on the surface of consciousness. It you didn't realize, existed until you saw this. This particular effect at another example I use is the difference between looking through a window at at the scene outside or inside and see in your face, reflected on the surface of the glass is and that, if the goal or to see your face and someone is, is looking through their phase out and then at the scene, you know how do you tell them to recognise their face? Just how long should take? How deep must I go and really the answer there that they just have to change their plane of focus?

and the leader vase instantly his, and that does get at it again. These are all these analyses are imperfect, but it gets out something that this method, when it works, reveals really well, which is that there really is no distance here and, what's being pointed out, is already true of the nature of awareness. It just has to be recognised and there's this really know distance to go. But the flip side of that is that people who have spent a lot of time meditating and haven't deeply ingrained this search for insight into selflessness may glimpse this thing. You know very briefly and Not see it as the answer to their search because they really haven't had a search and there they haven't become connoisseurs of their their own enlightenment, and so they don't see that this glimpse of openness and centralism S

immediately balances the equation they ve been struggling to solve and- and I believe Douglas correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that he once said in some contacts that the voice of the dead full says. So what should he- and I don't have that right? Did he noticed this has a problem where people would clips this and then say will also what and then it was hard to come get them pass that point. Well, yes, I mean you show them that nature and they go okay. Well. Watch on tv tonight, you know it is astonishing. Douglas was astonished that you can chew this and people would not value it, but he took that with a pinch of salt and You know here he in the end he shared with so many people, and I think I the same approach. You

go round sharing. It is widely as you care and affirming ever got it and then you stand back and see what happens and some accept some dough. And it's really mysterious and really interesting. For that reason I mean fascinating. And we have regular, video meetings in it. If your week started asking people, why do value is, and everyone story is different- and the sort of unpredictable really admire. Feeling is that one just goes and chairs it and affirms everyone's got it and that their response, whatever is even if it so what is valid and ass? You go round gradually it seems to me more and more people say yes to it and value it and that is infectious.

It's a long term project, but I am part of a community where I can see her powerful. That is and how wonderful and how much found it is- and I just think well, we ve got a great party going. There's no need to have died, you pick, it will speak for itself and it does and so the I mean I am ray. I really don't think one can. Judge whether someone is ready for it did not? I say everyone is ready, and here you are do what you like with it. I thought was map this onto it.

A more traditional way of thinking about this, which it exists in many places, but I would say, Zouk Pain has been the most systematic in talking about both sides of this. The seeming paradox of this already being true of the nature of mind and there's an end on that on that account. You have people from you know that the Zen tradition and and the invited tradition, sometimes speaking it so practice, doesn't make any sense, because this thing is already true, but the other side of that is a glimpse of this, isn't sufficient, that's actually the beginning of someone's practice and what your job is there after,

is not to seek. This is dualistic Lee as though this were some goal that had to be attained, but to get used to this and more used to this year's and grow in into it, so that you're living from that place more and more, becomes more and more obvious such that it at a certain point, it can't be overlooked. So how do you think about, or were speak about, the difference between an initial glimpse of headless ness and a stabilizing of this glimpse, or it or a yet living from that place? More more

well, I think it's both ends of the spectrum. I I did a workshop just a couple of days ago. At the end of it, we ve got forty people, someone said, but how do I keep this going see? I said: well, it's like anything. You ve got to practice and here's something that you can do if you are serious about wanting to get a guy. I said I want you each day to commit yourself to noticing three times when you with people that is faced in her face, and I want you to shit for two minutes and just one around quietly and notice. Your single lie, and first Now I want you and you're working on the street at least once in the day to note she was still in the scene, removed, you're

you know it's both you ve got it. You can't lose your home that you have to pact. Is it you have to draw on it? You have to do the s, let it into your life is here, and I think it important to recognise that doing this in the presence of other people makes it especially vivid because our are sensitive. Separateness is not only visually anchored more than in any other sense domain, but it, it really is, is ramifying socially rights. We feel this, this contraction of self very much in relationship to others, and that's what I said that this self other dichotomy- yes, one could argue as it is to sign of a single coin at the gates, gets forged at some point in

nor development and if you can just imagine the difference between you're looking across, must say or sit in a cafe and you're looking across it at somebody else. It in another table a stranger and their reading, a book say in any they're not than they're, not aware a view, and then in the next moment the personal. Salmon is looking directly into your eyes, and so this moment of eye contact with a stranger and that transition from merely observing some one in the world to feel in the universe. Mistral way that you are now an object in the world for them. They're, aware of you and for most of us that heightens this feeling is not an accident that we call it in self consciousness, we became aware that, with that others are looking at as we saw project our eyes outward, and you know objectify ourselves by the direction of their gaze.

And even in moments like that, you know what they are looking at, a stranger or whether more appropriate social cues actually talking to someone who has invited me, the relationship to be talking to a friend or or whoever. If you look for yourself, if you look for your head in those moments and fail to find it clearly, there's really is just this openness where you thought yourself to be a moment before, in which the other version is appearing that can make this non with awareness, especially vivid. Absolutely it. It may be helpful. Just briefly describe what I think of is the first stages of development, because it includes discovering the south so shall I just do that

he had a great okay so stage: one is the baby and amusing my own language here, but the baby is first person headless at large. You ve no idea of what you look like you look at another person. You don't feel under inspection. The eyes don't have that power. Yet. To that stage, one stage too is the child, where you learning language and through land. Let your learning the this can see you and your developing the capacity to sort of imagination go out and looked back at yourself through their eyes at a thing, and ass a child. You not yet really sure what kind of box you're in so it's his to be the train or bird. Does your little boy or girl,

and all of these stages are infectious with you with a baby. It in my language is giving you permission to bed just open, and if you were a child is giving you permission to be flexible and playful and get down slowly. A trade said just now. You keep growing up and the feedback from anguish from society. Is that twenty four seven? You are what you look like? You are the one in the mirror. Look, there's your face! That's what you are at send two. We can see you combat trust us. So you learn to see yourself as a see you in and profoundly identify with that act as if you behind a face and act as if they are behind a face they're. So now, when someone looks when you look at someone and they look at you, you're saying you feel look tat,

Learn thing: are you doing the same, so your communicating, I'm in a body or in a body I can see you, you can see me and you feel looked up certain third stage, which is infectious. You walk into a room in everybody's. Doing it in us, somewhat looks at you, you ve, looked tat your thing now, potentially the fourth state. When you reawaken to your own point of view, which, as you said, is headless and you our space for the world and and when you look at someone else now where's the little experiment to do. They turn the gas to you and Norma. You feel in a put on the spot and looked at and saved now you can look at that gate and see it's directed into nothing like you were saying and so want to put you in the box, someone else's gazed, and I don't know cuz you in to see you but you're, not in the box

and this fourth stages, infectious as all the others, and so when you with friends who are enjoying being headless of course, was still feeling looked at the same time. We are aware that with space for each other- and I hope that this is I've- got to you- and I have many friends- I share this within this wonderful to finally into the public domain. Awareness about true nature and many people find that friend who's a guitar is to be set as soon as he saw this new went and performed. You certainly wasn't on stage. He was space for the audience near and the It is very healing and lots of kinds where's it human citing the weighted mindfulness is healing because it is a kind of mindfulness of the these centralists nest of awareness, mere basically you're you're taking that as well.

Objective mindfulness, rather than any other object of consciousness. Yet so it has the effective for the those moments where you're you're aware. This you're, not identify with thought your nods clinging to the pleasantness. Have experience are pushing unpleasant experience away you're simply this openness in which whatever is appearing is appearing and so it it's got its own, intrinsic Aqua, nimitti and serenity. To what is your wishes, recognising this quality of consciousness? So when you is teach people about this, do you talk about being lost in thought as the the obstacle to see in this and the next moment about how much of your your discussion of this has a a similar character to the way in which we tend to talk about practice, mindfulness or or meditation generally made

dovetail perfectly really. I suppose one slight. They different angle, maybe is that I talk about placing your mind, placing your thoughts. So normally with anger thought so now at the sandy air. In the mind- and I but new. Mindful now, just objects, like you saying, really and they're out there with the table and with everything else So your mind is large and there's no mind here, and this is this: the modal shift free to see your mind is the world is big the thoughts and feelings. Don't effect, you know mind, they don't fact this space, but you know in denial that you experienced a whole range of things: wonderful, but that there

not here that makes sense, yeah yeah, I'm in the way I have put that before the tea the world you see with your open eyes is the same place. Where are your thinking and feeling his only me? Can you actually see that at least is visually? You can see that in. You're superimposing a visual image onto the physical world, you're looking at rights of users in a people can do that with a greater or lesser degree of vivid nest, but Sir thing happens there, if your staring at your table- and you imagine a a small horse and carriage on it right says something: something there is different than when I say now- imagine elephant on it and that super imposition of something shows you that your your visual mind is. In some basic sense before your eyes and Emily no as a matter of

The underlying neurology, this is, is all happening in the same place and may, not that really open junction, profound things wicked I mean how on earth are you actually imagine an elephant amid just popped up new road emulated is just extraordinary about it shop in the same place, table as I say. Well, you know, the whole thing is popping up out of the great void is now this is magical. It is yes it one pays attention because it so interesting. Do you have any specific instructions for people when they look at their face in a mirror? That seems seems like a very good. You can hear that on demand and in a way that you can't necessarily get someone to make sustained. I can't Www on demand. What practice would you recommend there? we are very similar to that. As you do on Europe, I would say: ok I mean

we always do this in a workshop, I take marriage, you know, and you get people to the mare out in their arms length, in their hands And you just simply say to them well, on present evidence where's, your face, you see, Why is there in the mirror- and there isn't one of the new round of your arm, so to speak, and so just as your space, where another person face to know. If I saw you Wha, with your image in the mirror with yourself, but which is rather compassionate than to do actually and You can save people right. Well, I mean the merest telling you what you look like you know this evening. A better the time you wear your face is until I get people to bring it up towards them and see how changes are you ve got to keep that arms lands to see it Well, then, I might say well in imagine, we had a big long, mirror annihilate on our southern leave it to your body, that

now! Imagine one on the moon. What would you say it's? A? U planetary fate so the mirror the showing you were you PETE. Your appearance is no. My I've got pantry phase out that range I've gotta My human individual face it about three feet in there are no phasing centre Do you know when your grandma, your talk to sort the region to the mirror? I take people through that, I imagine you know looking in the mirror, now imagine reaching it and getting hold of her face. Pulling it up towards you. Doing the other way around crisis facing the wrong way. Enlarging it. This is too small and imagine putting it on now. That's what you those tricks? You learn to do as you grow up in order to get this idea you're behind a face in that. That's where you get from plus what others say and but you don't actually do it it's imagination and when you

actually look I mean you ve got that guy. That enables you to function as a separate individual, which I think is terribly important, I'm not at all in favour of denying that there is room for both till you. Ve got that guy, but now that you sort of- Blake so that privately noisy all my face it over there and mirror see. I'm not like that here that face, is growing old, but the space here doesn't grow older. Now that this is a fantastic nation and one things I love about this emphasis in practice, is that it it seems to bypass a pitfall that many of us have noticed in ordinary mindfulness, because, ordinarily, with my fulness you're, you're being taught to

come more more aware of the way they turned the micro changes in any in physiology, and maybe most people start with the breath. And we very aware of the value of Europe, your body in and, ultimately appearances in mind, thoughts and feelings, intentions and until you can do that in a non dualistic way. There can be this kind of, Annie Valley effect where what you're becoming. Is more and more self conscious in many circumstances you you become more aware of your own, neurotic entanglement in each moment, and it can lead to a stage and in your practice where you, actually you you're, not you don't feel that European benefited by doing so much meditation. In fact, here you're becoming somebody who is less

functional in some way, because Irina, you, what you walk up at a cashier any in a store- and you know you ve- just got so much attention on yourself and is its is in some way less frayne, then just being mean blithely unaware that it is possible to live unexamined life in the first place, and so what this approach does is anchor mine for us to simply openness and free attention in a particularly in those moments of of social interaction. Words. You, like you, have you have? No, tension on yourself, because you can't find yourself you're, simply the space attention, a free attention in which this other person is appearing moment to moment. I do sing.

I don't think that was way bypasses any of these challenges. By the way you know, I, I think that one still has to work through all kinds of things, but. CS. I would but this is life. Isn't life is full of challenges I mean about fifteen years ago, after being with the headless way for thirty, five years, I suddenly began getting panic attacks. And those from the shocking and if you ve ever had a panic die but is rather a neuron disturbing is out of control. And then I realise that this panic tat was about was fear of others, the feeding separately. We went right in it. Finally, I suppose looking back this deep sense,

the separation that I'd sort of managed in this space. You know erupted and an eye for I knew not what to do, but I said I didn't know what to do. This remain open, enquire and pet. And should entrust to know that. But you know I tried very strategy. As you know, there are no others. There are no others. There was no self, it doesnt work, you know, you gonna go so far, and then you, you know, sir, and want it in the end, what it came water, the where I found myself through this was: I can't get rid of this sense of others in south I've been trying. I can't do it and I accepted it and of course I could see that accepting the sense of separation didn't disturbed the space. It was in the openness it was yet in The thing a and I've been trying to get rid of it. Well, of course, what you reserve assist

and soon I began to accept it? Actually something wonderful came out of it, which was a profound valuing of the otherness of people and of self within the one, the one with many and many were one have to try and cancel out the man in order to be the one so I'm saying this that you know. I think that even when you're saying who you are, I mean, perhaps even more so it shine a light everywhere in the end and it doesnt. Let you off anything, but these What seem to be such difficult, strange things, you know, God. Why is this happening to me? It day they teach one something about Nothing else could teach and this sensitive

the world. Is me profoundly me, yet it is profoundly other its glorious Henderson, because it it does get outweigh the distinction that the Buddhists really emphasise here to appoint of Paden trade. It seemed in the end, but but I think the distinction this is important, which is the difference between asserting the oneness of what remains when you're no longer taken in by the subject, object, perception and not asserting, Aigner anything really century is the day the notion of empty right. So it's not. What is not even one is no one is not many. There is simply

the unity of cognition, end and appearances right. It is isn't, and so there's no many of us have experienced at various points in practice and certainly met people who seem to be stuck in this place of can have real fine. An experience of oneness and and there's a guy subtle undercurrent of of conceptualisation continually happening there. This going on recognised, Yes, you have to sir do work through those things down to enter the inner world. So one of the good things about in a workshop is that there are lots of people there and they, see that people react in different ways, and so you get someone who is going well everything's in me the journey want and so on

SK as well. I can't see my head, but I don't get that my job at that point is to say you ve got it you just having a different experience and it will change, and you know that, in effect you don't get stuck in anything really and certain sometimes will say you know if you wake up tomorrow morning after the Welsh anything, what on earth was all that about all those experiments she now don't try to remember look again now, Try and hold on to any feeling of oneness or whatever it was just be clueless like right now, for me, pay attention and see what's up And this is life unfolding. This is living. This is glorious. This is spontaneous predicting yeah yeah yeah, so I'm richer than anything.

We haven't covered here that you think would be useful for people to to recognise what we're talking about an and work with it well I'm I am aware with who just for audio light. You speak on the phone and then one of my jobs in my life has been psychotherapist. I've done a lot of counselling and a lot of it on the phone, and why I say is that I don't talk about the headless where on the phone them come from that. For that you know my comfort, successions, Cosu suffering brave mental health whatever anyway. What I do it. I just be the silence, now listen to their voice and my voice and so what I'm paying attention to his two voices. Now you're mine in the one consciousness, and obviously I know my voices in he this my voice that your voice, but, from the point of view, my true nature there, both my

now this means in a certain sense that I position myself right where you are or whether the parliament and I'm looking out of the same space in you know, and try and feel my way into their world. Now I find people so to recognise that is instinctively cause you're on their side. That's I'm saying this, In my experience, this has so many applications in everyday life and wait a frame it because when you, when you put it like that, it can become obvious that when I'm hearing you speak, I'm hearing your thoughts for the first time I dont know what you are. Your thoughts for the first time. I don't know what you're going to say next, but the truth is

I'm in the same position with respect to my own thought right. I don't know what I'm going to think until the thought itself appears and when I'm speaking like this, unless I've been thinking image and prepare, Aaron what I was going to say and I'm kind of waiting for you to stop talking so that I can insert what I had already thawed out. The normal experience is to simply be thinking out loud and to be hearing my utterance precisely when you hear it I stand in the same relationship to yet both of our utterances witches to merely hear them for the first time when spoken and its magic, There is much religious coming out of of and no mind or the silence toward consciousness. Whenever you want to call it. Back in I mean how does that happen? I mean that it it's just stir. And it's so intimate, isn't it to voice

one conscious near here. Well, it's it's a pleasure to bring your voice to this conversation that people want to reach out or find. One of your workshops were get your books. Where would you direct them. Online Willa website is headless dot, org and if people are interested in joining any of our online video meetings. They can just contact me through the website and all our books on the website and information about workshops. Sower feel very welcome to get in touch with me through to the website us as yours. And then thank you SAM. You know I offered, I get people, you'd have movement. The ties. With the same now I heard about you through some Harris Dear. So really lots of friends come to workshops. All content

me on line and its through reading your boy core or your excellent. Both about costs and shy. I just want to appreciate how you have well thank you for that year get ready you're about to get a few more, oh good, oh good! Well! Well! Thank you! very much time a delight to being likewise

Ok! Well, I hope you found that useful again. If you were left wondering what the hell of those guys talking about, there is an experience there. They could become quite clear. It can be very brief and the beginning and then it can be expanded and elaborated through practice. And did you see what I mean about him in the nice guy on Earth one voice? I have invited him to record guided meditations where the waking up app and he

accepted. So hopefully those will be coming soon and if you want more information about that, you can find it and waking up dot com, and with that, I leave you until next time