In this episode of the podcast, Sam Harris speaks with Graeme Wood about the breakdown of social order in the U.S. They discuss the recent eruptions of violence, the loss of trust in the media, the cases of Jacob Blake and Kyle Rittenhouse, how to understand police videos, the risks of vigilantism, the politicization of race, the problem of deep fakes, Trump not actually wanting to be president, the prospect that Trump might attempt to pardon himself, and other topics.
SUBSCRIBE to listen to the rest of this episode and gain access to all full-length episodes of the podcast at samharris.org/subscribe.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Look into the maidens has bought Cast SAM Harris, just a no to say that if your hearing this, you are not currently honour subscriber feed and will only be hearing partial episode with pocket. If you'd like access to full episodes, you'll need to subscribe SAM Herriston work, there you'll find our private rss feed dad your favorite pod catcher, along with other subscriber only content and as always, never want money to be. The reason why someone catalyst pocket, if you can't afford us, there's an option in Samara, STAT Ordereth, less free account and we grant a hundred percent of those required. No question tat.
I'm here with Graham, would grant thanks for joining my pleasure
so where my region, you I get the sense you're not at home, I'm u
We note homer and right now, I'm in Oslo, Norway, home for me is, is the United States usually travelling around tartar than it usually is better? I have family over here. I got jail, broken
you ask and made it, how have you been traveling throughout covered or
you been locked down for a period
This has been the worst sedentary period of six months or so in my life's I've been locked down with the exception of one reporting trip to flow.
And you ve been on the park before you wrote a great
book on the islamic state which we discussed the way of the strangers? So people are.
Encouraged to listen to that if they want to get your expertise on all things related to jihad
but generally, can you summarize Europe focused
Is a writer in the you write mainly for the Atlantic and cover really interesting stuff it? What what sort of things are you focused on these days
These data I've been not travel
around so much sir I've been running a lot of opinion columns. I've been reading of a fair bit uncovered, usually with an international focus
my bread and butter, is traveling around finding things that are interesting wherever they might be, and as you mentioned for a few years with the may think I have been writing about to spend the islamic State and the development of Giada's them so domestic
I think I want to focus on all the ways in which the United States has been,
gun to resemble a failing state. You obviously know it's like to be in a failed state or two
Personified seems to me we're dealing with trend
who's in public opinion.
And disinformation and failures of sense, making a breakdown of trust in institutions, police,
that I haven't even contemplated in my lifetime. I don't think I'm in me. Perhaps I was
too young to understand
bad. It was at various points
earlier in my life, but this seems like
unravelling. That is fairly disconcerting.
I'm happy to go where we want to go, but I thought we could talk through
has been going on with social protests and police violence and the political ramifications of what.
It happened in connection and Portland and
I didn't know. I recall that the first time we met was around this topic of violence
shall I got into presuming Jujitsu in you wrote a piece in the Atlantic on that
not. If you came out and introduce you to my midlife cry
this around all things- you, Anne and Self defensive, so on, it's kind of full circle for our
recession but gimme your general sense of what we are living through at the moment in the? U S,
yeah. So like immeasurable, a lot of my reporting has been going overseas to places that have had some level of social breakdown. Some level of political power.
Down and so that there are some aspects of that that you definitely see in the United States when I think of of societies that have really broken down, though I think of places like Somalia, like Chirac, places where the government just has said
to exist, and we don't have that. We have touches of that and we have a kind of relative breakdown that I think is we experienced both as an absolute losses of standards and performance of government, but also a relative loss will look at other countries. That that seem to be doing more
better than we are and that we thought we thought we were in their league or we were there. They were not quite in our league but but below us and somewhere like say Vietnam or Thailand. It is just been clean, your clock when it comes to dealing with with Kovats, oh what a breakdown look like it in another place, what kind of places where I would have been sent a couple years ago, ten years ago, to report, I think of places like like Zimbabwe, where
had no longer any control over its currency. I can't be trusted to maintain law and order because it insists on destroying any any kind of any kind of law in order that might exist so.
We see bits of that right now mean that there are cities that are pretty much acknowledged to be no longer under control of the forces. Lawn forest
or any other kind of discernible powers that we would want to have a monopoly on the use of legitimate force so that this touches of that now. What I've found in looking at other countries is that that the really dangerous combination is a place like Iraq, where at one point you have
total control by the government. Waiting, much control, control over the life and death of its citizens say during the Saddam Hussein regime. That's replaced by total anarchy. So in the United States you see touches of that too easy. The government irrigating to itself
all sorts of kinds of of a power that you we shouldn't really be comfortable with
and at the same time you you see the total breakdown of law and order and pockets of of of Urban America.
I M Yan and terrified to see that combination of both consolidation of power and then total chaos, institutes,
were the ugly combination to see ya. Remember I did a pot cast in the begin
of April, with Stanley Mcchrystal and Chris Fossil who has partner. Forgive me Chris. I can recall whether you pronounce your last name fuss, solar, few solar
mother variant there, but anyway, I remember having this conversation with them and talking about the prospect of a book.
Down in social cohesion under covered and
I remember it. I think I actually telegraph office in the conversation, but if I did not certain
thinking. It was worried that I was being a scare longer for even just hypothesize in that this
was possibly on the menu are worth thinking through registered
things could fray enough. So there would be violence in the streets, but that our political partisanship could turn violent. It really did seem. You know, as recently as the beginning of April, far fetched to me and I just felt like it was worth
talking about because it was possible. But you know if you'd asked me, then I certainly didn't feel it was likely, and so now
trusted to consider how many of us
have now a reset our expectations, and this seems like the new normal and we're not
actually entertaining how much worse things could get, and
would seem like scare mongering too sincerely
entertained that, but there is a kind of slide towards something unrecognizable, at least in our lifetimes here. Obviously, there comparisons,
today sixties and there was a fair amount of social unrest. Then I don't know if you know I'm sure there are men,
a decent there as well, but you know with Trump in the White House and the press-
subject of either him being reelected. Were there being
a real unwillingness to accept the results of an election that goes against him. He seemed like a very risky time wherein and
that is so disconcerting for me to sign an hourly basis is to see how things are.
Started in what used to be the most reliable sources of news for us ran, I feel like now. I can
out on the New York Times to get crucial things wrong with respect to what's happening with protests in
police violence say and wrong in a way that just amplifies political partisanship,
open hysteria on the part of people who actually decide to go in the streets,
certainly hysteria and social media and so on,
I feel like there's a from a moral panic component.
A lot of what's going on- and there are very few
level headed people in the media, whose inclination is to turn down the temperature
things. The business model of media is to be a shrill and sensational as possible so that the partisans amplify your message so yeah I just
the way in which this is a runaway train or lease feels like one that that worries me
for what I really don't have any I had you seem to deepen
unfamiliar to be living through yeah. I think, there's a definite recalibration, that's taking place within media, and we at that
citizens. We've got to kind of work through and around lines. You know if we notice things that we didn't notice before about stories getting covered or not getting covered, the that should be, and you know I would still take the New York Times over my facebook feed say as a way to understand what's happening in in the United States. That said, you know it's. It's been talk to me at the Atlantic, Beach
Where I wrote most of the time it's the magazine that has endorsed a candidate are in the last election. It endorsed Hillary Clinton very odd thing for the Atlantic to do just because we we don't endorse candidates most of the time, but to have an hour
ourselves as as having been on one side now, readers have to to have to take that into account
and it's just our being honest. I mean that the word basically nobody at the magazine who is in favour of Donald Trump, and so it was important that that that we come right out and say that, and so, when readers Rita S day, they know that. That's, where are
origin point is going to be in our opinions. That said, will we still in I've been told by more than one editor that it? If Donald Trump does something right, then is our duty to say so
So there is still a standard of truth. There were working toward it's just that we were in a different media environment. I would also hasten to add that it is not just media mean that there are so many other sources of of truth that we would have taken for granted in the past, and we no longer can you. You may have seen Harold Varmus Curtain
at the New York Times near just in the last couple days. This the forehead and age must prevent Nobel Prize winner basically said: don't trust the CDC Citys he's been politicized, so if you ve got Harold Varmus tell you not trust the cdc, then you really have a breakdown in the
sources of medical information near when you need to have that information coming through loud and clear, with the consensus of the the best medical minds. You don't trust me,
Did you see in the middle of a pandemic, when you have to decide whether to send your kids back to school, it really is unbelievable. Were in the situation. What let's talk a little bit about the violence, we ve seen
because this is a place where I see
everyone left of Santer seeming to get virtually every
specific, claim wrong and,
I'm someone who, as I think you know, is more concerned
and that we are
not reelect Donald Trump than most people
I most certainly I would put my aunt. I trump benefit- is up against anybody on the left.
Or the centre or among the never Trump Republicans. But it is
crazy making and deeply concerning that? The left seems too
The bar is nowhere near which worry where you put it
Are they not only would they not acknowledge that he gets anything right, but just everything's upside down in how they describe what's happening with police violence and
social protest? Npr just published a wonderful interview, which I think you noticed informing all of humanity, that looting was
essentially a moral imperative and a great form of social protest, because small business owners
I really know better than big business owners and they all
serve to have their stuff stolen, and this was
centred on the NPR website. Without any. There wasn't a single critical question, if I recall correctly, was just like this is poor
legally and pr position on looting yeah I was that is shocking. To read, I've actually subjected myself to the book is I've read it covered a covered by now and have reviewed it for the Atlantic on us
is, if anything is more radical than the and Pr Interview would have you believe, the empire interview really took the title of the book as the jumping off point in defensive looting by Vicki Oscar. While the book is actually mostly about in its defence of violets, so looting as an afterthought, I think they're, all chapters where looting isn't mentioned explicitly. What is really trying to argue is that America is conceived in sin. Racial sin capitalists in you name it that the system that we ve inherited in the present is bad screwed up and that it must be destroyed. So if, if it sounds like the kind of thing that would destroy our society to just
people, smash open shops, take everything in them and bring them down. Then that is very much point. There is a desire on the part of the author to recreate society in what I can only assume that some kind of she didn't say explicitly, but I am a marxist anarchist revolution that is born out of violence, wiping away the old order, and yes, the NPR interview that introduced this book to, I think most of the people who have heard about it was
totally uncritical- and I will say this for I think that an Pierre did the right thing by interviewing this writer, because there are a lot of people who have, if not explicitly positive things to say
leading think that looting of reasonable a response to the injustices of of american history or the present in the american system, and I think that those people need to articulate what they really think that they take the cat just get away with sang. I dont want to criticise the looters
no. I want them to to say I am on the side of Vicki Oscar Wilde or
Say that they have a different view of of looting but being able to be kind of mealy mouthed about these things has not worked out very well in its allowed, for example, Donald Trump to two conflate, the position of say Joe Biden, with the position of someone who throw the bread through a window and still snipe had, which is completely unfair, making sure that these differences are as short as possible. I think, is one of the things that journalists should do so and PR they started to do that unfortunate. They weren't is critical of, as they could have been of the author when, when they had her
in their clutches. Yes, abiden, as of yesterday ethical releases, a few days hands, but where recording the day after he gave his speech in Pittsburgh and the purpose of which was to put some
light between him and the caricature of him that Donald Trump tried to paint,
aligning him with the left and the pro
ass, preluding Anti capitalist, far left, which exists, and it is
clearly worth disavowing. I assume you saw that.
Peter? I was pleasantly surprised that he too
the line that he did and I thought it was pretty effective, but he does still get
enough wrong as part of his talking points that term, given it
time. He doesn't do himself too many favours here so hears like when he talks about police violence,
virtually everything he says seems to me to be pandering to black lives matter in a way that just inaccurate knew. I should explain why. I think that, but you need, I think he also
the cow written House was a white supremacist at one point, not in his speech by think I on Twitter
The EU has campaign released something about white supremacist in a way that was clearly reference in the written house. Shooting I don't think, there's any evidence that Rittenhouse the white supremacist. Is there
things can change by the day, but at the time we're having a conversation. Do you know of any evidence that suggest that? No, unless you think that a white supremacist is someone who believes that there is such a thing as private property and it should be defended by the state, and you know that there are such people who were so radical that they would say
That alone will make you a white supremacist right. As far as I know, all the reporting about Kyle written houses, social media suggest that he was a big carbon, busiest, a big gun enthusiast, and if that makes your white supremacist, then I guess he's always premises, but I'm I tend to be more restrictive,
by definition, yeah. I think our sanity depends on our being that way. So
let's his wine, this all the way back to the Jacob Blake Shooting, which was the proximate cause of all of this chaos.
What happened there to my. I again, you were talking to
point time and who knows what facts will come out in subsequent day
for weeks. We might learn a lot about the cops there. We might,
that there are members of the local chapter, the cake
and therefore your racism could have been a conscious motive on their parts, but when I see a shooting like that, one,
in the frame of that video
color of everyone. Skin is totally irrelevant I've seen
videos like that, where white people getting shot, I've seen videos like that, where black people getting shot by black cops and I've talked it sufficient length about these statistics of all of these encounters with cops and applications,
violence lethal and not and justified, and not to say that-
The story is not is certainly not
they clean black lives matter story of us having an epidemic of racist police violence
as a young black men. That is just the statistics on bare that out in I would you say to our listeners. You have to listen to my two, our walk through this morass titled. Can we step back from the brink? Where can we
back from the brink one us, but also when I look at a video like this and I didn t know. If you see this differently, we clearly see a person who has been resisting arrest. I dont know to what degree he fought with the cops before the video starts and we see
I'm just essentially moving away from the cops on their guns already drawn. At this point, I think it's from other video things
clear that there was a kind of wrestling match happening and then he broke away. And then you have fully three cops. If memories
serves pursuing him around his car and he's Guenaud now opening his door to either get into his car
to drive away or reaching into the driver side of the car, for something is not clear from the video and then he gets shot seven times in the back, and now he is, I believe,
stolen, some terrible state and very likely, paralyzed though he I think, as seems likely I'll survive at this point, and this
encounter gets summarised virtually
mainstream media, as this is not a verbatim quote, but this is a paraphrase of
virtually every summary I've seen
yet another black man shot by white cops or a black man shot in the back seven times in front of his kids by white cops right here, and it is just
is an article of faith that the skin color of all involved is absolutely relevant here and worth emphasising, and is also an article of faith that all
his details. I have some moral opprobrium attached to them like it is assumed that the cut
can never be justified in shooting someone in the back in an encounter like this, whereas
you understand how violence evolves and you understand that were living in a society in the? U S where every police
sir, has to assume that everyone they are dealing with is either
essentially armed and if their reaching for something in their car, they are very likely.
Reaching for a gun, and this not the default assumption, perhaps in
in western Europe. But in the? U S, it absolutely has to be our failures of Reno gun. Can
nor are relevant here, but the idea
that cops are performing some kind of lynching by shooting someone in the back
because he has fought them off, ran around his car and and opened the door and reached in that just completely untrue. Given
cops I view of the world
think that the only thing I want to say here and now turn over to you. That really has put the onus on the cops is
clearly they lacked the training or capacity to control him physically and take him down
on, so that they wouldn't have to use lethal force rain it. I cops who actually could restrain somebody
could have easily restrained him it. He was outnumbered. He was walking
hey from them in a way that allowed for any cop, with a modicum of training to take him
down and hold him down and the faculty
couldn't do. That suggests that there is a serious recruitment
woman training problem, you know
and we know this is true now
and wide, and so that something to be war
about and and rectified
I'm even their peoples, intuition about what cops should be doing
should be allowed to do all.
Run off the rails in mainstream media. Maybe it's a point of seemingly absolute consensus that car
should never use in I rear neck restraint. Otherwise,
not as a rear, naked choke, because some number people have
under those conditions or seem
of dying under those conditions, and they can many cases that that was not in fact their cause of death, whereas a rear, naked choked is in fact, if done appropriately,
a remarkably safe procedure and has done in every judges who scorn
country every day of the year and if it had,
a high rate of lethality family. You you just be seen: people die all over the country, all the time and tribute to it, and this is now. I think it's illegal in
New York now and maybe illegal in other states, perhaps even attempt this, what you
I've done when you remove that tool. You have made
far more likely that cops are gonna have to resort to lethal force because they can't
is really one of the only ways to incapacitate someone so that you can cut them. If you're going to rely on your grappling sky
everything is upside down here. But again I would love to know if you disagree with anything. I said about what we can clean from that video. That is a few things that I see what I watch that for you, in addition to just being horrified at seeing at seeing violence of any type that first of all the SAM, I think you're kind of like me and that you probably spent a fair bit of time watching and counters like this on Youtube or wherever videos of of police. So doing failing to seduce someone. Please doling out violence and being the victims of it, and I think many people who see that scene. They start off being rightfully horrified at having witnessed an act of violence. And then they don't have some of the contacts that you might have if you've gone down. Some of those Youtube rabbit holes and watched lots of vinyl.
Like this and seen how this kind of thing could turn out in other scenario, how it does turn another scenarios like the fact that his lunching into his car, who knows what he's looking for apparently there's a knife? There's it's not it's not a crime to have a knife in your car. As far as I know, however, if you're a cop and someone grabbed a knife in your right behind him and that person wants to stab you, you could have a gun, but I don't think the average person knows whether you should expect to get stabbed. If someone is is
four feet away from you. You have again and they have a knife, and the answer is almost certainly you're gonna get stabbed, that's what you are are our dealing with. If, if you'd have someone who wants to stab, you ensure that close? It's not unless you get one really good shot right in the head its view,
I like it in the person's going to get to you and be on top of you with with a knife, even if you, even if you put around them already so yeah, I think there's there's not a great intuition on the part of the general public about the kind of threat that's being faced about the type of mindset that you might be in. If you're aware of us threats to- and I think too that that's that's a problem is that not just with with police training, not just with the poor intuition to the general public, but also with Kyle right now, so you know if you are spending a lot of time, thinking about guns, thinking about law enforcement, you were going to be aware of these things and maybe primed to over reactive it to if, if your your politics
Justin. The other thing of it in that in that video and what you're describing is the the failure to describe it properly properly. You know as a journalist, but I tend to do- is look for incidents that turned out to be more complicated than they originally appear, and what you're describing is the exact opposite of this
and people seem to like doing that- both sides- liberals conservatives left far right. You find a situation of of moral complexity, of deep ambiguity
like this and people are not as interested in what I do is as in turning it into a the black and white morality play it takes, takes a lot of investigation to find out what's actually happening
just watching a few seconds of a video is not going to tell you why the cops are there in the first place, what the interaction has been like up until the point release, you can shoot a guy seven times in the back.
I'm not sure will ever know that I'm in half the people are. I talk to about that. Shooting think that the
died on the sea, there not aware that
still alive right now. So if they're not aware
a detail in their unaware pretty much. Every aspect of the context of of that shooting
and it can be used for one of these binary political purposes, either to suggest that his a demon or decisions
the people who shot Emma year. Why? I want to talk about the car Rittenhouse episode, because it it does strike me as more complex and interesting in the end and has pretty white implications, but yeah just reiterate something
You said there about the Jacob Lake shooting and what a slight to have seen a lot of these videos me. What you have to know is that every permutation of this kind of encounter has halved
and so you can find video again with the razor
everyone swapped in and out right-
in fine video, where the guy reaches into his car pulls out a gun and shoots the cop in the face and kills him right, and every cop knows about those kinds of encounters right. So it's just you have to game this out
more fully than your your knee jerk
action, may admit of which is either just awful. There were living in a society where cops shoot a guy in the back in front of his kids right with an apparent intent of killing him right it as a way to pacify him, and how did we get here? This is completely and
pain and unacceptable, but once the wheels begin to come off in an encounter like this, there are very few options open to people who don't have all the tools that might be possible. There may again COM
of sufficient strength and training could have easily taken.
This guy down and held him down. He wouldn't have been injured in the end right. So there's an absolute deficit of training in recruiting
there. That is visible to the eye of anyone who knows what is going on, and then there is the fact that,
I think it is, was used before the video picks up and failed, but people
think that taser MAGIC Weena One are always use them, while they they're not
magic and they they often fail, and there
more dangerous than a neck restraint which has now been ruled illegal right because its if you take some
and it works and they fall to the contrary,
and hit their head into. That is virtually always worse than actually being choked out. You know you're going to Jiu Jitsu class, so people have to become better students of this kind of violence before they have the
these reactions that seem to justify burning down half a city or
in headlines which a test. Yet again,
and in the loudest possible way that we
have a real problem of lethal.
Racist violence perpetuated by cops.
Again. You know, unless we find out more about the precursors to that event
there's no reason to even talk about race. At this point, that's what's so sickening. My hypothesis is that
virtually every mention of race is counterproductive. Now in our society, is virtually only
went to push society in one direction, which is good
you're, polarization, greater derangement, greater hysteria, less contact with actual facts and its also point to increase the likelihood that we're gonna get for more years of Donald Trump. There's one aspect of what you say that that I am not so sure about
We should come back a razor a second, but the idea that we should familiarize ourselves with this kind of interaction used to be very appealing to me. You know I stood watching these videos and I actually wrote a profile couple years ago. Of of
John Korea, many nice guy food does can color commentary and videos exactly like this, so they will be bad capital, P Cctv, but it's always violence that either happens or is averted, and then he looked
minutely dissect what happened? There is a former preacher ready. He went from minister to full time yet here to get ourselves,
fans, video and analysis yeah. It is
Dylan, a man of God and the sensitive. He will remind you of the importance of having a good relationship with you
This is an remind you why you know Jesus would want you to put in the right amount of time of the and so far
he's a great guy and his extremely responsible three he's very evidence based when he is he's doing these analyses and I've learned a great deal. I think that people should watch him and hid his his his words. A car
as well? I'm also not really certain whether I want people to be thinking about this all the time. For one thing, rarely do you see people you know student studying and counters to go? Well, you know that they end up seeing huge numbers of counters and encounters that that goes.
Sadly, even if these are extremely rare and all in the life of a cop or citizen and
sounded by watching them that you have to be extremely scrupulous in making sure that that you have.
Had kept capture head on your shoulders when, when it comes to understanding what the actual likelihood that this is going to happen to you is in Europe, if you,
don't do that your mind will be even more warped than when you, when you went in
might have a better sense of yes, this person with this weapon the danger at this distance when I'm carrying this well.
When I'm ready for him when I'm not, but the fact of the matter is most of us don't get attacked very very few of us for law enforcement, so many
these things are just not relevant to our lives, and when we get to use to them, then I think it can have a really warping effect in her psychology. I know you SAM spent a long time thinking about self defense, personal security and so forth as I and I am not sure I would take back any of that time in my case, but I do worry that people are becoming over familiar with these types of of interactions and what they get out of it
is not necessarily healthy for us collectively as specific as a society. Yet I would totally agree with that, and this is a nice headway into the car Rittenhouse phenomenon, because if you become a state
this kind of violence. Yes, you can get an outsized sensitive. How comment it is, I'm so really well
make clear what I was recommending a second. If you're, not someone who really knows a lot about violence, you haven't studied it
We have been trained in anything right. If you just don't
how hard it is to to
shoot what your aiming at, especially when that thing is moving, if you're, just not informed, dont, have a strong opinion about these things
right, don't go in like the now is a good time to burn down the local sporting that store over this or support others doing likewise.
When you just don't know. What's going on, Airbus related also attracted
is a kind of bug? Lighted attracts a certain
kind of mind, then a certain kind of person to say
a lot of time doing. This is gonna select for people who have that in a fondness for
firearms and self defense training and joining militias enemies, so that the cow Rittenhouse kind of person- and then we wind up in this other terrible place on the landscape, which is one
You get any kind of breakdown and social order once cops yet pushed far enough on their on the back foot such that they are not doing the kind of policing we would expect them to do right once they have essentially announced nation wide that they won't protect property which they de facto have just by example. We saw this
in the first wave of protests in riots that even in the most affluent parts of the most affluent cities cops, would not protect. Property,
men in a potentially there's an argument for that, but is probably not
great one and in response to the protests we had the worst of all possibilities. We had come
essentially saying they would not protect property
I wouldn't even be diligent in protecting the people.
Tried to protect their own property from being violently attacked by mobs. We also footage of store owners
in beaten by mobs, but what they would do is they would kick the shit out of peaceful protesters right. That's what the cops were at four, so it was like
you wanted to create a machine to amplify centre.
As and a commitment to a kind of
Landy known, take matters India
on hands ethic, you could not.
On better than these last few months, with respect,
of american policing. And you know what would you
there too. It is exactly that that kind of twin evil forest going on well, where it it's the forces of total chaos. That is the cops sang, we're not going to enforce laws concerning property, go out like fires whatever, but at the same time, claiming for themselves immense power, so chaos and order both being weapon eyes to just make life hell. You combine those two you get. What what has described earlier is, as these characteristics of hellish failed states that have reported on overseas. You know it's it's in Micro, he it's not beyond recovery, but it's a taste of of what life is like in places where, where everything falls apart- and you know what I worry about most too-
is that these effects are not exactly exile: northern the police. They stepped back from from enforcement of of property crimes and sometimes in in other places where I supported. It's been pretty clear that they'll say: yes, we stand between you and violence and chaos. If we're not here, then that's what can happen, but silently uttered after that, after that promise, that threat is we're gonna, make sure that's what happened, what happens if we're out there? That is it. If it were not there protect you, then things will go badly, because we insist it'll go badly so that you are now give us.
The proper respect and sign over your security to us, along with everything else. So what is your actual allegation?
concern there, that the cops have put the rioters on
a sufficiently long leash for reasons of tourists
justifying their own office like what are you
we want to defend. Us was take a look at what's gonna happen tonight when we just sit on our hands. What I make that happen
well. What I think is happening is that that incentives exist, so the incentive is to say, first of all that there are some perfectly reasonable incentives, a you! U dont, enforce laws concerning property, because you're spending your resources make sure that people dont get killed me information. Violence isn't happening. So that's a good reason to do this, but there
is an incentive to to say look we're not going to force this, because we want to show you what happens when you dont have us.
And the incentive is for what happens when you
and have us to be very, very bad to be as bad as possible, so that your appreciation for us, the police, is, is
is sufficient. So I'm not alleging that there is some conspiracy worthy the Carter, handing people guns or or molotov cocktails. What I'm saying is that at all levels there
really really negative vicious and centres their work, and it wouldn't be shocking if there is a downward spiral, that's good,
but he- and all of this is coupled to
What is now known as the Ferguson Effect, where cops?
because I don't want to wind up on Youtube on what seems to be
the wrong end of yet another lethal
encounter which, in their world man fact have been a justified shooting they're, just gonna, stop policing, proactively and crime rates.
Probably soaring as a result of that. So the Rittenhouse thing is interesting, because
so. You have someone who draws the the obvious lesson, especially right of centre here politically the
in it. We have the second amendment for a reason. It only makes sense to get really into guns and personal protection cause. You really can't delegate the protection of yourself and your
family to the cops at a minimum aid. There is usually not there when you need them, and they're gonna, sharp too late to do
thing other than hopefully solve the crime that you were the victim of selfie. If you care about
defence will. Then it really has you have to put the self back in self defence and there,
Therefore, you need guns and you need to train with them, and you need to take selfies of yourself walking around in the woods with your air fifteen and become one of those guys
Then you hear about this breakdown
social order. A few miles away
from where you live, and you decide you are going to be this. Some high testosterone, good Samaritan and get out there and put yourself between them
what is of chaos and the social order that still needs to be maintained and you're going to protect people's businesses, has I think Curtain House was some intending to do at least that's
been reported and their sooner, this footage of him clean it up
graffiti earlier in the day. I thank, and then he's he's interviewed by some
and immigrants points in this.
Interviews is simply a perfectly nice kid in ready it there's no
occasion that he is intending to shoot somebody who's there,
medication every night and drink some portions of it. I think he's offering medical assistance may be medical assistants that he has no business offering, and I don't think many people take him up on it on it. But there's no. As far as I can tell no recorded evidence in the videos or interviews with him,
that he's they're looking for a fight, that's it! You eat, went from Illinois Wisconsin and picked up a our fifteen went into a really really really dangerous place worth anything could happen so being right. Is it I'm all by itself
looking for a fight yeah. I wonder whether he had the right level of community obviously did not have the right level of civil situational awareness, awareness of what he's getting into. I mean it if you're walking around open carrying with any weapon, even if it's a tiny pistol in someone taps you on the shoulder, in that the scenario in connotes Chopin building
a burning around you and people screaming in crowds around you. You have to consider that within the next few seconds, someone is going to try to kill you here with do the weapon that you have brought. That could be the the weapon that put a bullet in your brain. So I didn't see any awareness and in his face I don't imagine that that anyone could possibly be had if in a year save a recent highschool graduate who shows up with your air fifteen in the middle of a riot in a previously unexampled horrible situation in this country. This is, this is a situation that that he clearly had never been in, that you'd be terrible at assessing the danger to him in order when, when young reporter is going to war zones- and I talk to them
Sometimes I asked at all what do you suggest? What should I know in, and the first thing that I says is that danger just doesn't always feel like danger, you're going into a situation that is is, unlike anything, you experience before. If you ve seen movies than you.
They'd be headed out all the boring parts that happened in the movie spread. So you you're, going to have a very poor sense of what the actual rhythms of a day in Baghdad will be and you'll be surprised at how quickly things go bad, how quickly the danger arrives, how quickly it passes, and these things are extremely difficult to train their the kind of thing that you learned by accidently surviving long enough, and you know he had one day one day in connection and they turned bad really really fast. I am still very curious about what happened in the the actual run up to the first shooting the guy who he shot. Joseph Rosenbaum doesnt seem to have been the most
Stable Individual, and you know that there's suggestions that he was furious. He may have attacked written house and then there's always moral questions and legal questions that I do not think either. Russia's really competent to two to your gate, about whether Rittenhouse under the laws of the state it was gone. Some would have been justified in in shooting him if Rosenbaum say grabbed for his gun, as is, I think, alleged in their criminal complaint against written house that that he shot Rosenbaum after after that happened. That has, after Rosen about went for his his gun, but it just has to be said again and again that if you open carry in a situation like that, where there is, may him all around you and crazy people who literally flocked there from from from other states, be
cuz they're looking for craziness, then you committed an error that is really sealing. Your fate ii can't see how how to how to see it any other way if it's Rittenhouse have been from Kenosha and it just woken up and roll out of bed and stand scene may have in his front yard and thought he had to defend themself. That would be one thing, but he made such a terrible decision. Then almost everything that happened that flowed from that is going to have to be seen in that
What is a decision that so many people are making? Everyone
shows up to one of these protests
or shows up anywhere arena, whether its encounter protest to the protest they don't like or, as is their own protest.
We saw against lockdown earlier in the pandemic. Anyone
shows up armed here carrying our fifteen or you know any firearm. Some of these people have
thought it ruin and
happy to run the risk, but the real.
Is that the presence of a gun completely changes the dynamic of any interpersonal.
Once, when you know you have a gun was concealed. Carry that its own burden, ethically and tat
Equally right images, you can have a gun on you and no one can see it, and still there may
the door is close to you. You cannot afford to get into a wrestling match with someone or a shoving match or a boxing match. You know in the ordinary range of interpersonal violence
when you have a gun on your belt, which at any moment you know you might decide,
to draw or you might fall out. You know in a scuffle or it might be seen by the other person images everything
potentially lethal, and you know you have to
think through what you're going to do if you
you start losing a fight, and we were armed is a different situation out there. Obviously anyone whose they true firearms person will have recourse to
There are several aphorisms at this point you better to be judged by twelve than new carried by sex or in certain cases
Obviously I would agree with that, but the real here touristic here is, if you
are going to be someone who, who assumes the risk,
The real responsibility of real self defense right. If you're going to have firearms train with firearms think
the scenarios under wish you would use firearms
ray you're gonna, be the sheriff of your own life in the end
and you understand the calling nine one one is not actually a self defense plan you have to
void, violence had virtually every cost. Rightly avoidance has to be your master strategy, because it's only if you please
does that impeccably. Do you know that you will be justified if you find yourself having to resort to lethal force,
and if you ve decided just go out to a random car dealership with your our fifteen, because you don't think the cops are going to defend those precious cars
you're, someone who's, not avoiding violence at all, right you're, putting yourself in it in a very tenuous circumstance,
in front of a mob, and it's totally irresponsible and the so them that part can be defended
everything's manning. If you'd like to continuously into this podcast you'll, need to subscribe SAM Harris DOT. Org you get access to all full length
So did the makings has podcast and two other subscriber only content, including bonus episode,
and I m is- and conversely
I've been having the waking about making sense, podcast ad free and relies.
Entirely unless your support and you can-
describe now: SAM Paris, DOT Org,
Transcript generated on 2020-09-07.