In this episode of the Making Sense podcast, Sam Harris speaks with former SWAT operator and lead weapons and tactics instructor for the LAPD Metro Division, Scott Reitz. They discuss guns, gun control, police violence, and related topics.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Today I am speaking with Scott rates. Scott, as a thirty year. Veteran of the LAPD here
worked in the elite Metropole,
and division, and then
became a member of DE team, otherwise known as Swat, and he find
became the lead weapons and tactics and structure for the whole metro. Division
so he's a supremely qualified experts on the topic of guns and the use of force both legitimate and illegitimate. I think
find his perspective on these matters quite useful
and now I bring you Scott rates.
Ok. Well, I'm here was Scott reads otherwise known as Uncle Scotty to those of us who have trained with him Scotty
come on podcast,
actually my pleasure. I can't thank you enough for listen. While there is a lot to talk about it, I've been thinking about how to organise,
this conversation relax. I have three broad areas that I want to touch on. One use, violence in general and self defence and related
like the other, is guns and gun control and then finally com
and the challenges of policing, and I think of the Republican, a move back and forth between these these areas.
Damn to start
Just talk a little bit about your back
ground as a police officer and wise at Turin position to have
opinion on these various topics. Well, that was done,
the eighteen, seventy six. Until two thousand and six I did my brigade
well sure division was very hot division. Back then, I was wheeled means transferred after one year
the field and Wilshire is transferred over to Van Nuys. I work a special problems unit there in a hive car. I was actually here on expert, so I developed an expertise and heroin. Wasn't too long after that, but I gained entrance into metropolitan division, which is an elite division within the department
the time it had two hundred and forty men, sixty men and Swat, which is deep, Attune sixty men in people tune which were primarily the valley Hollywood, as
sixty nine and see platoon which work downtowns. He had deep attuned, be pattern.
But to enable tunas. Administrative and
I came in to be able to work there for a while, and then I gain entrance into Swat when I was in Swat four
ten years ago
that is an operator and later eyes and instructor and towards
the micro left swat, but I stayed metro and a position was created for me by the department as a primary,
fire static structure not only for Metro, but it can
all divisions for accelerated training, especially
This division, such as S, eye ass, an
Terrorism, undercover narcotics vice,
what we call the followed him internal files in which would follow bed, corrupt crops,
and as an addition to that during my years, I've ended up. Having
fourchan experience training all over the world pretty much all over Europe. All over the United States are trained Swat
all over police from all over? I work with group
such as Jean
police national I've worked with the attacks,
special forces at work with just dinner, just name from
this amount of people. Love had a unique operative,
working with seal team insects during the eighties and
members of Delta, so what I were a kind of ended up doing.
After all, that is my wife Breton Queen Anne. I established international tactical training seminars, and this is about over
five years ago now, so all these
The experience that I have learned and all the information and I've garnered over the years we now disseminate in our class is not only to civilians who were begun.
Never held a gun before, but all the whipped acids, rescue for Swat teams or specialised units such as
military units or special forces, and as of now for the last twenty, almost twenty eight years, I've been working as a use of force. Expert in police tactics, communications, police procedure is the application of deadly force in federal and superior court. So I've been doing that on a constant basis and that's quite a process. It's been a real eye opener, so I think an essence. I learned about deadly force application
Police procedures- and this applies to civilians as Well- even the military and ultimately applied it been a number of shootings, and then I taught it, and now I defend it. So it's really come full circle, so I've got forty years now binding
yeah yeah? Well, I can say it as someone who's trained with you. Now, at this point, a fair amount. You really are one of the best teachers of anything I worked with. This really is just an immense, privileged train with you, and I think people are unaware. Even people who boulogne guns and shoot guns are unaware of just how much there
to know to shoot. Well,
and the difference between working with someone like yourself and working with the other people who I've train with issues night and day so on people should know that you really are in addition to having the right biography on this topic here, just an immensely talented teacher plank, I'm blushing- and I owe you a case for that. I thank you and I think one of the
things. It does come through in all of our classes. Red who teaches myself our sun, Jordan
once the office, but Oliver instructors current Ellie,
Swat former LAPD Swat everybody? All of our instructors are people that have the heart in it and I didn't necessarily for the money at all there in because they care and we understand the ramifications and implications of the improper application of deadly force. We also understand all of them have been involved in
multiple shooting and we understand what it takes, not only to prevail in the field.
Our within one song, but also you have done it
and how to prevail within a court system within a judicial system. You have to be able to accurately and honestly articulate your actions, and so it is a much fuller process than what Holly
would depicts near he also before we.
We get into the nitty gritty here. I guess I just want to flag both for you and our listeners, some what I perceived
the biases of my audience. I think I have an odd
that certainly skews to the left. Politically it
on international audience. Are there many people in Europe and elsewhere who look at references
level of gun violence in America and just think what on earth is going on?
if you people, have lost if you ve, got three hundred million guns on the ground and you wonder why people are getting shot right so
and many people in my audience. I think, frankly
only in a gun. They can't imagine why any civilian, whatever need a gun, they think
the rightly so they think we are living at the safest moment in human history and that Europe is statistically unlikely that anyone is ever going to be involved in a defensive use of a fire.
Her arm if they own again. So that's the kind of
background, assumption of many listeners with respect to two topics like guns and gun control, and now with
I have seen the
the very recent and very well publicized misuses of force on the part of cops
and in others that the whole black lives matter
a campaign that started with trail on Martin, which wasn't police
involvement in it, but then continued with with Michael Brown and Eric Garner in and Walter Scott and others.
And the reason why
I'm so eager to talk to you about this. Is that either? What disturbs me here and I wouldn't have to go into the details of any those specific cases? But what disturbs me is that there is a way to my eye
quite clearly, a range of police,
hey, viewer and in uses of deadly force and on the one hand you have just said
accordingly obvious failure,
of training. You have Cobb's, who shouldn't be cops. You have cops were re says you have cops who who belong in prison and then
all the while, on the other end of the spectrum, you have totally legitimate, understandable uses of deadly forests that
any same cop, a black or white would have produced, even with the
and if it of hindsight and there's a total failure on the part of most people,
certainly on the part of a campaign light black lives matter to differentiate these case?
so there's just an answer that we have a kind of identity, politics and moral confusion about what's going on here, so I just want. We don't have to talk about specific cases unless you want to. I think, on some of these cases there still facts coming in, but there is
undeniably, this spectrum of incompetence on the one hand and unfortunate uses of deadly force that are that we are given the constraints of policing unavoidable. So I guess I
start with the time,
back of what it's like to be a cop and what what is it that people don't under
stand about the cops point of view
and how difficult it is to police and would like you to take me through a traffic stop or start anywhere. You want, but just tell me what it is it that cops can front, and why is it that
uses a force escalate in ways that that are our kind of.
On to it. If people had not trained in this area at all in and certainly have never lived as cops, well, wonderful, wonderful question and I think we were about to get into really Owsley fascinating area of the application of deadly force and training schemes to take a little bit of time. It's a very broad brush drunk, but I worked the entire. When I worked on the streets, I worked on the streets, never behind a desk had made thousand
felony observational, rest Metro, that's all we did is felony ops, arrest and you're constantly stopping people you looking for dope guns, you're looking for suspects, bad guys, gang members and so forth wanted criminals. I worked on some of the serial killers, such as Richard Ramirez, says Brianna. What part of that task force? Looking for the night stalker in Van Nuys, we are out there a special promise you trying to catch up Bianca
on the other, they were the time hillside strangler. But aside from that, when a police officer stops anybody on the street,
looking at a very extemporaneous that the option
may think he knows what's going on, but I can guarantee you that it many times especially very confusing, a very fluid and dynamic, intense and uncertain situations. The rest has been made. Whatever force has been applied and we start investigating they're always going to be permutations,
there within the incident that we didn't know about it, the outside what that means is, I could stop an individual in a vehicle for running a stop light coming to a California rolling. Stop. We don't. Quite stop. I pulled him over unbeknownst to me this guy just knocked over committed at two hundred and eleven to Bank of America in the shop for people, but the broadcaster not been issued yet so I come walking up with the intention of issuing
Citation next thing I know I'm in a bloody gun battle, I can have an individual who is mentally disturbed, he's just beating his wife he's on narcotic and he's under the influence any number of things. It's such a both a fascinating and terrifying career,
The same moment as you and I are sitting here right now- there are life and thus struggles that are occurring in the United States, between police and individuals on the street, the United States of America. As we said her by the time you and I have finished this
I guess there will have been probably a number of uses of forces on LAPD alone here, in LOS Angeles, when
was a policeman. I always expected the worse. So when I came up my expected the gun I looked for and so forth, I trained to a very high standard and
you're no judge sling linger. Therefore, second Cosette can sound like a cycle
a problem or a or a kind of paranoia. That is unjustified. What it! What can you justify that expectation or, if that's a good point to point out the clarification and other
I make a start. I assume
It's gonna go sideways. I dont approach it in that manner
than in my mind, just expecting that if he were to come out, if we were to do that when we talk about with my partners,
I'm gonna be cover, Azure you're, gonna be directing I'll show you gonna, be the controlling offshoot, you're, the one that said the conversation with the individual issuing commands and so forth. I'm in a cover. So if I was perhaps it let's say, I was Apash. Draw shroud already bowed to the side of the car, and often you, and even though it had happened so quickly in the car hadn't, come to a full stop and that my partners issuing all the command suspects. Let me see your has exit the vehicle, and so forth is all we do. Is virus felony stops and so not high risk type
starting we known as your ticket symmetrical ready. So from that standpoint we got many vague as we receive many
guns, office aspects and, if a suspect started making referred of move. In other words, he starts going underneath the city's inside the glove.
I might draw my pistol already. We tell him to freeze, we get back pine cover we get on the PA system. Now we start issuing commands. I remember at one- and I talked about this in my book, and it was
us later, but where we made a start, and this aspect was what we call hanky to assessments and the vehicle and-
out and drew the puzzle already, it's not enter the person, but it's a low, ready and fingers alongside the frame off the trigger and emission commands and unsavoury stern manner what we call command presence in the sun.
I you can tell he was somewhat hesitant and I sit you know down.
Please turn around cross your feet, hands behind your head in a relation fingers and so forth, and we came up and finally put both of the suspects down handcuff him right away or the suspect had a shoulder holster on for a
forty five out of a forty five Otto is laying on the sea on the floorboards loaded, cock, lock, ready, go full magazine, one chamber sets eight rounds and I always made a point. My two guns off suspects to ask: why didn't you make a move? Why didn't you go for it and I never forget to this day, and this would happen on repeated basis. They said you had me
I know, and there was no use of force. I didn't have to do anything are then put hang us on him now had I walked up in a slightly manner. Had I walked up without anticipating something goat going terribly awry, the outcome could have been much different. He may have decided that this is his chance wreck so tight.
About expecting the worst. It's very benign. You would never know it by looking at me when I look like a burn out hippy, you know refugee from Woodstock, wearing my birchen stocks and so forth, and not will not quit
quite put those view can't see him not quite but her, but I just can't surfer did
that that was my persona in the street, unless I realize that it was going south and then the persona that we used to refer to a euphemistically in the old days, going Metro with change little in the fraction of a second and now suddenly wearing a whole different realm, but that persona actually mitigates and avoids a use of force because using proper tactics to avoid the application of force and that's the important in a component
and that takes time it takes experience. It takes years and years. Street smarts takes many interactions until you find a get a handle on how you yourself, as long for saucer, are going to comport and present yourself too bad guys, whether you are stir or not. I mean I could probably
address a group of nuns in one room and walk over and address a group of Ex cons, and I can relate to both of them may save some most people who have an encounter with a police officer. I don't know if it's most, but certainly many aren't in fact,
bad guys rights. Are there there? People who, for whatever reason, have been stopped by a police officer and they
perhaps noticed cop fair
they switched on reminded of it a story. My friend of mine, told his
guy, like me, he's got no enough is objectively a not a scary, looking guy and has no history of crime and he's just this sum to. If you need the decay,
character of him, he's a essentially a jewish intellectual who really wouldn't sky
Anyone and he got pull over for a traffic, stop and something he I he was, I think,
harking back to the cop and in some way and probably-
as someone who's, never trained in the use of firearms and or even self defense, never thought about.
a Billina were his hands on the wheel. Was worse hands visible to the car, probably not write. His privilege is acting like that. Like the innocent person, he knows himself to be, and he at once
the dialogue starts with the cop he's, outraged
be detained in this way and he notices the cop unfastened the restraint on his holster,
and he says what are you gonna pull at your gun on me now and, and he just becomes. You know I rate and the copses will tell me what is a bad guy look like right and that completely,
shifted. My friends
view. He realized. Ok, there's there's no way for the cop to know,
reasonable expectations based on what somebody looks like, but you know it
if your hands are invisible and you you know, you can have a gun behind the door and if a cop has doesn't have his gun out- and you have yours out here- she is already behind the curve, and this also just walk me through that a little bit well, which are looking at their if this contempt of cop
and so what happens? Sometimes you have what policeman, unfortunately,
you don't know what's going on in their lives some policeman
and I'd be very honest. Shouldn't be oblation, absolutely should not be a policeman. There's no doubt about it, takes a special person to be an effective police officer. Just having the badge means nothing. It's like having steinway right have one, but it is gonna, be gathering,
dusk to be an effective police officer. You really have to have compassion for the people that you're trying to serve now. Sometimes officers don't like being challenged and they come up, and somebody says why did you stop me and especially if you get the quasi pseudo attorney, that knows his rights, they all seem to. Sometimes that throws officers off a little bit now they become its again contempt of cop and that's how the police I'm just saying this is how some police officers might perceive it. Where is a rational police officer? Is literate well educated? Who has the background and knowledge would be able to say luck? This is why I stopped you these other. This is the probable cause as to why I stopped you and I intend to do this and so forth. You wanted to cooperate and so forth and be very nice, very gentle and very soft and
keeps on coming back at him, and some policemen start building up basically resistance, because what their taught as it people should Molly your commands. But people don't always follow your commands with seasoning. You learn
a to win very quickly and very rapidly kind, whose a good guy in his bed guy- and this will be especially be
Bruin someplace, like LOS Angeles, you have washers at work, certain divisions, which would you call hot divisions, the murders and stabbings ambulance, shootings and stabbings are fights. There's pursuits, it's just really nasty and it is non. Stop in one watch, then. Suddenly they take that personally shift and then let's say they bring them out. To
beautiful bucolic, Beverly Hills and the first thing he does. He pulls this guy over that runs at a stoplight, and I got to gets back in his face and this officer has been used to for five years of basically combat
It's probably not gonna go well for the yet he's gonna to probably sign for no gloves and the Glove box
everything again in order issued that take it and that it is,
Romania can be, and this
election of washers. When I came on
one. Seventy six am I
standing, they had well over twenty five hundred workers out of the twenty five thousand, and I came out from the University of Mexico drove out here and had to wait
over twenty four hours in line at Van Nuys High School, just to put an application and go back? Take midterms. Try back out for a written exam, believe it or not with you. No four year degree, it was insane after we process two thousand five hundred people, if I remember correctly- and they only took ninety one- almost everybody in my class had it had a graduate degree that it went up a gradually a couple guys in masks,
but mostly, I said for integrated right to set your saying. It's become less selective as well. That is,
the general consensus with people that I've to because we're trying to get people to come on. I think a lot of policemen. A lot of individuals now shy away from law enforcement due to the fact of all the negative publicity and this I don't want that headaches and I can understand that to a degree the standard
citizen who they bring on and who they dont. I seen some wonderfully gifted individuals who have tried to get on the department,
that, for whatever reason, we're disallowed from getting on the department, one other,
or humorous ones, was an individual who has a law degree from Cambridge, and he did he wanted.
Come in reserve on LAPD and he wrote they ask him. Apparently at one point is most writing not a dissertation, but just some type of a written,
warm and just free him, and so he wrote it because they didn't understand that they thought he was illiterate.
This is a guy with a law degree from Cambridge
disallowing em from coming on, because your claim that he doesn't understand english language, this Bob,
kind of viewers. Yet to a degree. I dont know what the solution as policemen receive fairly good wages for what
they do, but, by the same token, it's an inherently dangerous job. You don't know, what's going to happen using one of the shootings I worked on at the beginning of last year. The officers first hour in the field,
in Samara. Nino shares he's been evolving shooting his first day first hour in the field,
is involved in a shit. What are the odds were
So that means I worked on. This is now in your capacity as someone who is consulting on on cases on legal case. It yes defend defending yes, defending him in Asia and the application deadly force in a lousy Google is called wrongful death wrote, so I am defending Austria in that instance. But what you bring up is a wonderful point, and that is that police,
I don't know who their stopping and not all policemen are going to be great. Not operation have good people skills. They don't have good communicative skills. They are not able to think on their feet. They not necessary like being braced. You have a lot of policemen that are maybe perhaps a little too aggressive
and militaristic, wrote and my guess I'll. I would, in the other side
There's again here we have a spectrum, but my point Agatha lesson I drew from my my friends experience was that many people, just
dont know others there so fundamentally ignorant of that
I am of the escalation of force and what cops experience with us,
people and how many Cobb's either no someone or heard of some one who just got shot in the face the moment he pulled some. Moreover, for traffic stop.
And so we have assumptions about what is
legitimate escalation of force as a civilian I'll, give you a clear case for me so, for instance, there people who
wind up in wrestling matches with cops. Rightly
hands on a cop without
understanding the implications. From my point of view, is it
as a Marshall, artisan, someone, someone has thought about these things,
My point of view. The moment you go hands on a cop. You have
his use of deadly force, but for the fact that here
She doesn't actually want to kill you on necessarily end
will rely on some other tools, either their own hand to hand training or their own less lethal tools to contain you, but that the east.
You for a car. But I M a correct me: if I'm wrong is dead, he doesn't know
Firstly, he has a gun here she elder just for simplicity, I'll, keep saying he here, but he
a gun on his belt? He doesn't know what you're going to do after you
knock him out or after you.
At him down and and and dominate him physically if your stronger, a bigger, more athletic or more skilled, and he cannot afford to wrestle with you or box with you in it
certainly any kind of sustained way, and certainly if there's more than one of you goin hands on
opposite disaster and he has to assume you're going for his gun at some level, and so people think that that cops should be
If someone's wrestling with them, he should be wrestling with them.
Person only has a knife. Will then that doesn't look legitimate
as the use of a firearm and people have no
idea what can be done with a knife and how disasters it is to be right
slain was someone who has a night. Even an unskilled person with a knife so talk about just how force
may escalate and surprising ways around cops, phenomenally great questions and subjects you bring up so
Let me put it this way, an usher never knows when you stopping somebody, you have no idea what their intent or ability is, mostly that is aground groundwork foundation. If I
consciousness. Every time a police officers involved in an interaction with an individual there's, a gun on saying, there's, always a firearm. If I become unconscious
I have no control over myself or the safety of others around me. That's not rwandan! If I am, if I end up sustaining injuries which diminish my ability to substantial margin where I'm unable to defend myself or others,
effectively. That also endangers not only my life but those around me as well. So when you're looking s
nation of forest were using is what we call a continuum of force, the first forces
My simply coming out saying SAM. I need you to stop right there place and that's just nothing more than command presence being nice. Now you die
I might be a little bit. Sterner phenomena is
commands at this time. You start advancing toward me at that point I might take out perhaps and would say for the sake of argument you're on arm, but you take a fighting stance. Well, I may take out the baton. I may take out the pepper spray.
If I had the taser on. I take other taken say: you'd need to re, really rethink this whole situation
so I have some other options, so we go from verbal at. We have command presence which had just being in uniform you're having a badge on tiny do something than we have
you're Leslie what we call a nonlethal which are the basically the baton. Your oh see spray, Oleo resident captain. You have these days her and you have joint locks. You have obviously worse bar arms and carotid and then finally end up with deadly force and there's less lethal munitions such as these shot gun being background that comes out. You see the line, green shot guns, most departments have them not funded
Hitler again it with a baseball bat, none, not much of a party, but you have options, but you are not always able to bring those options too readily bear on a situation,
did the allotted situations, all my shootings occurred within two second another
from the time that I realized I had to apply deadly force. The innocent from I might physical application deadly forest, a cessation of activities of applying that deadly force under to say very fast. I dont have the luxury of latitude scrolling through a hundred and fifty options, and this is where a Supreme Court law came.
Comes into play in this is a fascinating subject. In and of itself. When I came on the department, one thousand nine hundred and seventy six all states had different laws regarding the application of deadly force.
If my memory serves me correctly at the time you could she they fleeing Fallon, ok,
in in LOS Angeles, if I'm not, if I'm not mistaken, as there was along the books,
stealing more than seven dollars worth of awe boycott, as was a felony, as was probably drafted in the early eighteen. Hundreds. Twenty seven dollars worth of lava quotas was a wagon load. Yes, so
those better be some good, avocado settlers and great out a kind of so much safer
of argument, I'm working Loescher, we get up avocado theft, farmers markets. I raise up there, two hundred and fifty degrees him in my LAPD Blue, Wolf surge, uniform and I've just had got some, which is eating. I don't feel like running and I run up and the grocers goes he's go in that way. What he still advocate us, how many a dollars were side drama, jostling shot of? Theoretically, that would have been a judicious
occasion that force under the law. Now it's ridiculous, I mean that's an extreme example, but there were states, it had different protocols, their word departments that had different shooting policies. Now Supreme Court finally said enough of this, and they started to
come out with a different standards and why the standards was was basically for protest.
And that was initially that you looked at the nature of the crime. You looked at the nature of the intrusion of the EP. Right intrusion are talking about the four supplied to.
The individual. You looked at the nature of injuries sustained by the individual as result of your application of debt.
The force and then you do to get us to other. Not that was reason. It was very complicated,
What he really got a handle on it. So two different Supreme Court, the sinners came out
see versus garner in the eighties and then the most summer, one of all is grand versus Conner,
see verses, Garner Bay and I'll go into it.
Can look it up but ultimately ashes.
Can not. She had a fling phelan unless they can articulate the weight or nature of the states. Interest outweighs the interests of the individual somewhere.
And others? I got it murderous suspect, active, shooter class.
Look he's running way. I can't catch him. He's got a rifle his hand,
put him down, shoot him in the back without absolutely Yasser. Obviously, that's again one example,
We gotta grammars Carter and grand versus caught really sets sets standards in what they say is when an officer applies any kind of force. It has to be objectively reasonable versus subject, but has to be objectively reasonable
and this is going to be weighed in by the city attorney Jessica. Turning by the FBI by Department of Justice, it's a very extensive process. My work on these cases. There are thousands and thousands of pages of some of these cases. It takes forever walk through all the facts in evidence, blitz re pattern now says trajectory just honour, not its,
and ultimately in front of a jury, whether it's in a civil action or criminal action, the jury or the court, they decide to go. The court mandated the trial
is going to decide as to whether or not the authors application of force was reasonable, objectively, reasonable and one of the things that the chief justice renquist came out with is an opinion stating that, because please situations are tense, dynamic, fluid and uncertain
It is unfair for individuals to apply twenty twenty hindsight absence, the presence of an uplifted knife. Now that's a fatness
Wonderful wording, because what is saying is look. This is this is
since the meat of the matter. What we're talking about when you look at something on tv, and so these are bad shootings- is shootings that I would tell you right now to I couldn't defend them and you need to settle. The officer was completely out of line so on the need to go to prison because they're lying
and when you are looking at these cases, what you're looking at is, is it reasonable for the offer at the time, given the facts himself?
go stances known to the absurd it at the time that the shooting transpired his background and training. In other words, I cannot hold a rookie with two weeks on this
to the same standard I hold myself now got forty years behind the gun and all the different cases for me to apply deadly forest. It's gotta
off, the charts now for younger Asher, I might be able to say
look, he doesn't have the experience right it. He doesn't have the technical expertise. He does certainly doesn't have the mechanical ability. He doesn't have the presence of mind or the experience to a formulated, maybe a proper decision. It may not have been a great
session and maybe mechanically impure, but according to the law, it was objective we reasonable that he applied force whatever force that may have been
in this circumstance, and that's what throws a lot of people, because, while wired the officers in prison because of the jury instructions re were as an ancient. I had never heard that that courts will
hold officers to a different standard based on their experience in these cases or or almost yeah, but
should each shooting as adjudicating on its own merits. So you can't say: well:
Does this shooting went down this way? This one should have gone down in a similar manner. It's impossible there too many variations in permutations and eat, shooting that are unique unto themselves. So, and you
I am involved in the shooting. Each shooting has to be a jury.
Get it on its own merits the facts in evidence in the circus.
Answers known to the author of the time that the shooting or use of force transpires.
His background, knowledge of the UN
our incident as well as his training
now. There's also one other thing, and now we get into precipitated factors was
the answer legally justified and being where he was. Did he make the right tactical decisions medium,
for the right communications. Did you surround? Did he across backup? Did he requests less lethal gets really involve its
unbelievably involved and I get attacked with this all the time and depositions in court will widen. The US should do this or I may have an attorney said well
reasonable, bore the authors to have done, as I said absolute, but they didn't do they know. Could they have done this? Yes, without have been regional, yes and they didn't do it do they know, and he might do fifteen of those in Europe
fifteen of those in a row and then finally, he look at me and say: well, why didn't they do all those well because they didn't have time right? What about the the intuition that
Many untrained people have. Why can't you just shoot the person in the leg? Ok, that this industry
comes back? I get jury questions all the time. Why didn't? They shoot the knife out of his hand, why not use
the baton against the guy with the knife. First about. Let's look at this again this this is. We could have days to unnecessary fascinated by my something, let's say peppers. My o c is an irritant. It's not an incapacitate!
Okay. So it's a irritant. I've been sprayed in the face by my partner when I had an altercation with a suspect, because my partner wasn't terrible and I was still able to fight. I was still able to bring the suspect under control. We look at the taser, it's not an infallible process, so sometimes the darts don't go in
They not separate enough visitor Neuro, muscular, basically disruptor, and it causes the muscles too, to violently fuel twitch contract. Sixteen times
second and some of its you'll get your mind right, but both of those programmes
to make contact and then electrical conduits between those two contact.
Baton strikes, don't always work because you get glancing blows and so forth. Less lethal munitions from the shotgun sometimes guys get hit, and they go give me more. Then you go, you got to be kidding.
What's a sky on that I fought suspected of an unbelievably tough. It's not that it's a scary. So, when you're, looking at the application of deadly force, when looking at last
these are people, say waiting to shoot him in the leg. Well, if I rip
your femoral artery open, and you bleed out and twenty seconds guess what it's a fatal.
Also rounds. We're talking about terminal ballistics rounds do very interesting things inside bodies
and I have seen rounds and struck. I had one shooting about four years ago or the round struck the suspects hip inborn about an inch and have in that it ricocheted off the hip river. It basically made us seventy degree angle turn upward trajectory now. Cause was a slight downward angle and went through the heart bottom. The heart topped our exit out through the suspects right classical
was there on saying expired on Saint well, theoretically, that's a glancing or a peripheral hit Enzo
shooting somebody's knife out of somebody's hands, you better be really really good. That's damn near impossible, so
These things that, in the movies, its Hollywood year and officers, dont, have and will get into train
but the authors themselves, don't
This really have the ability to make this buena with pinpoint accuracy when you work hand against to shoot him in the leg and wound him or shoot something out of the suspects hands. On the contrary, their stories of shoes
in elevators wariness, seventeen shots were fired and no one is hit or a hundred rounds from five different officers are fired and
certain subjects had twice for, whereas we should and we should get into
the standard to which most cops are trained now and just what you any illusions we have about that. Well, I will put it this way. This is one
that is urged me for years and years Irene
we came back from the EAST coast, where the department really good Department, great chief, really understood, and so they had me come out and I trained her entire department and in four sessions and over space of two weeks and the standard of training that I train people to far exceeds the minimalistic standards that most officers are trained to. Officers are trained to what they called for the standards which a police officer, standards and training. You have to get a lot of people through Academy's, so you have a base level of performance that an author must qualify with a firearm, certainly go to written exams and understand this, and that so everybody wonders why are the Oscars? They hit rates are terrible for placements in the low teens. The actual numbers of hits far more misses in the field than actual field documented shootings than there are stripes on suspects. We have sometimes excessive amount of rounds going down
although there is a brand new Supreme Court decision that just came down regarding that, however, that being said, the jurors sometimes will ask and written while. Why did the officers fire so many rounds? Why are there so many officers and gage news, shooting and the
analogy I like to use, I think of all your listeners can probably latch onto this imaginative.
I taught you how to drive a stick, shifted Volkswagen bug answered, I trained to do a little readable beetle from the seventies Woodstock out.
And then I ship you across the ocean. I put you into a formula one and the law,
on five hundred at night in driving rain, and you crash and burnt the first turn and your astounded
Well, I trained you to one standard when an entirely different standard was called for in the field, and this is what happens
when you do a qualification course, finest,
city. You have to have some measure of proficiency. You have to have some standards that you can go back and say, look the offshore qualified ears here, the records, but
it's just it's so vast, mechanics and I'll just rip through less very quickly. You looking at all very positions: braced, unbraced rollover, rollover, propositions, reverse positions, you looking shooting firing
forehand fire at firing hand only looking at low level light problems you looking at high speed, moving targets, knife attack, targets, hostage situations, vehicles, barricaded suspect, all the impediments. You know that maybe interpose between yourself and it down range target partial targets, you looking at distant targets, you looking at targets at articulating
an awkward angles, and so for that is a lifetime of study. Near now,
you go and you stand in front of a silhouette. They ask
delineated scoring rings. I've never seen that honest aspect. I've never seen a suspect wearing a shirt with a silhouette, and I will right now on the record will state that the first ex cop,
it comes out with an LAPD silhouette, tattooed Allah
entire body of I'm at dinner at Morton State House, I'm sure
gonna cowhide Sunday, but that's not what you get,
are we trying to one standard and most qualification courses are nominal at best and you're doing the same course. It's
when you come back six months later, I for thirty years and LAPD our combat, while course remit.
The same. This is standard. Looking budgets you looking man
our pulling all the officers out. You have. Ten thousand answers. Are you gonna train him or are you gonna get unqualified sofa?
It's a real double edged sword and the interesting thing is it the most. I won't
this week, the greatest watershed event, an officer will ever experience and the most seminal of that. Little impact and entire department is the application of deadly force, and yet it traditionally throttle on forcing it is that aspect, the application, a deadly force, the mechanics knowledge of the law are taking place, and it is the least train too that the least amount of money is budgeted for
So what you ve just described is certainly troubling it. It is something to which we don't have much, even with the use of body
cameras as an end, and ever this year ubiquitous s practice now recording what the cops do. We don't have a ton of evidence of how the poor performance of cops in the application of deadly force or just eat the obvious lack of training, because it's interesting when you shouldn't pry talk about the significance of video
and the way in which video can even be misleading, but from a
hand to hand weaponless altercation point of use it than theirs.
Now, there's so much video evidence of cod
not being trained in just how to physically restrain peoples.
This is an amazing videos. I could show you in all, I think I'll put
one or two online when we post this podcast upper them on my blog,
There's some amazing video of cops.
Wrestling with suspects. Are your three cops trying to figure out how to subdue
One clearly unarmed
Small and middle, let us a one day I'll show you this these videos guest.
Clayton in the brazilian Jujitsu community, because people are just a gas that end. No one really knows at this point. You know twenty years after the ultimate fighting championship, there are still cops who don't have sort of basic
hand to hand skills and in in near in grappling in particular, so that was
there's just one video that that has made the round and has commentary from entering here and Gracie, who are great, Jiu, Jitsu teacher and it's, I believe, three cops. All of them. Look like they're, two hundred and twenty lb
trawl and obviously drunk
much smaller shirt, less unarmed man she
less maiden stocking feet in a Mcdonald's on it not slick floor he's got these that literally no shoes. Three of them are
owing to figure out how to bring him down, and they can't solve
the problem and they go to a taser. Ultimately, they go to a terrorism. One tries to throw a front kick Adam and can't do that. They are the ultimate
Take this guy repeatedly right and it's just the most just ghastly- incompetence from a more
in my view- and I am not I'm not actually judging the cops here and with it the problem as they haven't been trained in when they have been given the tools they need to solve
this problem and there's another video which perhaps you ve seen a what becomes
wrestling match the then wines up in it in a lethal force, or at least in a shooting in a Walmart
parking lot with a kind of deranged family that just attacks the cops, but I think this family had been harassing employees.
This Walmart and the car,
come on CNN. You see this all from dash. Can video and there's a family of like eight
people, men and women and one cops.
Ok. We need to separate the that this group here they wanted to. He wanted control them by at first separating them, but the family refused,
separated and they just like on cue- became like the zombie family. That was going to attack the cops and it becomes this
insane protracted ten minute
wrestling match with it that, where the cops use, every tool on their belts from pepper spray took baton to taser is totally Anna
Actually one has his gun wrestled away from him and it's all on camera, and its looks like honestly from the point of view of a
train, Marshall, artists and again. This is not not to judge these specific cops, but it looks
like you know. Everyone had been done.
With some sort of neurotoxic agent, where they just couldn't function properly. I'll show you these
is later, but it is in any case, there's a. I think, a reasonable understanding of what you can't do in a situation to control ay and agitated strong athletic person non lethally.
Will in many cases dictate an escalation of force on the part of a cup well,
wonderful points again and this you know- and I worked on this
it's still now. I work out all the time she said
Please run that I think, may need to work out a little bit more. Let's put it that way, then isolate the first incident. You alluded to have that occurred to Krispy Kreme. The outcome might have been a lot different. The bottom line is involved in it
altercations escalation, and we did have a great tool back then, which is the barn, and then you can go straight into the carotid.
What would buy what you mean a joke like a rear nickel, Jack yeah yeah we're naked choke. If you wanna, call he's gone, barn and then went into the carotid than but a lot of suspects
that way. I was choked out the academy a number of times you do combat wrestling
now guys. You know what I told you. I got your partner Choky out, especially to get your mind right, especially if you screwed up something so wasn't a big thing. It wake up and actually know your Hank us, and this is what happened to suspects but be as a result of a few suspects.
I I don't know how many there were the almost all of them. If I'm not mistaken, it may be speaking out of Turner, but had intoxication light, acute acute
Cain intoxication other derive
types of narcotics in their systems of the time does happen or there were extenuating circumstances, medical conditions that was too
in a way and what they did as they say. We're not gonna give you that, but you get used the barn or the carotid. Unless you can justify the application of deadly force. Here's a steel baton with a handle on ok. Then we have riding Kent
now in the old days. If you go back to Rodney, can you can see the officers striking Rodney, king and very ineffectual and in the old days you just get on them so come out here to wake up
of that was it and a story? No marginal bruises dust, em off for them in the car. Don't do that again when you take that away
tactics, expert, a law expert. They pursued driving, expert, a crime, stopping expert and so forth. They have all these different areas that they have to be called on, quote provision. It there's only so much time in the day and are so much money and funding and real human resources and are allocated to the training of individuals, not lot of officers. Take it upon themselves to seek out additional training. I did so. I went to other schools and so forth and learn way back when
funding and re human resources are allocated to the training of individuals, not lot of officers. Take it upon themselves to seek out additional training. I did so. I went to other schools and so forth and learn
back when same thing and turn martial arts and got you know what their departments not going to pay you to go. Take martial artists that he's not going to pay you to stay in shape, necessarily they're not going to pay it every note to go to outside fire schools. Many department, some will hire us, but a lot of times. If an officer comes to us, he has to do it on his own budget. His own time is on vacation time and that's a huge expense, especially if you're a policeman in you have a family to raise. So when
King police officers, very few of them- are ever involve very, very few. Wherever involving a deadly for situation, that's number one in the span of less than twenty years, most lobsters if they work the street for any period of time, are going to be involved in a physical altercation and a lot of them or perhaps ill equipped to do so
and there are some people out there in the old days ex cons in you- went out to the range and you seen that photo I have from San Quentin,
and those guys in the yard. These guys are all pressing like four five hundred pounds in huge and they took the weights out of the California prison system, but believe
but are not those were easier guys to fight because they tired out very quickly. You can catch one afoot, pursuit
and all you do is stay off from for a while about thirty seconds into it. Then you just jump on their back and I could have been there. Big strong guys got to call the condo now, but they practice are martial arts. They practice ground, fighting a practice mma in prison if they're caught, then they get put in isolation and and they're doing.
Strength, training, endurance training, so they have actually learned- and I remember watching the first voice Gracie. You know I always look like Canada, he
Stan and urges Canna Meekin. I love the guy
death, I mean I'd love to meet up with just stand and the biggest guys in the world would come up a monopoly in the skies clock. The next EU is twisted up there
oily snake ear. He had, they didn't know it, no one. Nobody knew what to make of it here, but officers would have to do most of that stuff on their own, and a lot of us are simply aren't won't. Do that what they do. Unfortunately, I think, is a hope that that fights and I'm never going to come to him. They hope that is never going to happen, and I am aware some the videos I watch them and you looking
Let them come on guys. Can somebody just get somebody just get a hold of this? Is anybody in shape is anyway
you're willing to does anybody have any skill that she's gonna joint like this guy up? Let's get there,
outside? I will say one thing, and that is something
tough. His fights altercations. I've ever had against suspects are guys that are about five or six away about a hundred thirty hundred forty pounds on the level and some of those are females. Again this this
goes on the side of the ledger. That justifies what many would think to be a kind of paranoia about you. You often can't tell
how formidable a person is just by looking at them. There are women who could choke both of us
now it cleaner lawyer. You know at this,
time. I know some of these people is so it say there the difference between someone
truly been trained and not, as is a fairly extraordinary, and you also just don't know whose armed and so he then- and this goes to the significance of having firearms spread.
Throughout our society and at this point literally having more guns than people. If I could energy while Yanks him, when he let me just tell you how it may be a typical day, might have gone for me, work in the streets and metro specialist. What will go from late, say Monday to Friday. This is how every single day is different. Your subject, collops urine stand by you get up. You drive in you work out the shower, but on uniform got a roll call. You out there doing high risk crime. Suppression, you got court, maybe have court. Maybe the next day had initially was on was scheduled to be off Katrina,
play golf tuna, fishing or something you know surfing or something? And then you? Finally, now you have a be there in court subpoena holy smokes, so you go out, you don't cry. Espressioni gets a multi for arrest, felony as rest, now, suddenly you're doing paperwork by the time you finally get
they work is now three in the morning
Three in the morning now you drive back home. You got about two hours late to come up now you have to be down at two hundred and ten West Temple zero. Eight hundred and thirty be there in
spur court, he going you wait all day when wait all day went wait all day and ashes waiting room, witches medieval, medieval, absolutely is inside a marquis, her son, you know
as hard wooden benches, no place to do and up your continued to next day, Jesus, ok, fine! I go back home
I got two hours: sleep go back home, sleep, all the sudden guess what you're on standby tonight we got to call it let's go bump, in other words, by the time you get to Friday. You are absolutely wasted. Your tired, your just exhausted. You have a family to take care of you.
To take care of the demands that are put on you and law enforcing, and now they have ten hour twelve hour shifts. In my day it was eight hours five days, eight hours, but now they have a four hundred and ten and a three hundred and twelve, but even
as you can go over time and you're, just exhausted and you're spending days just trying to recruit and it becomes a lifestyle which is extremely stressful and that at the same time for the average patrol loss or not
specialized unit. They could encounter the same thing over time night after night, be there in court and preparing with the a's and find a b sharp on the stand and then suddenly going back out. Now I have to work the field. You know we can't give you a special or day off because we're under deployed, so we got to deploy if she's, okay,
yet another rest, your overtime aims does goes on a Nazi have to understand policemen dont work bankers hours.
And some of these kids are out there and it. My heart goes out to him because they are literally inside okay they're. Just overloaded and they're asked to do an incredibly complex job and I think in some cases that we asked them to do a job that none of us would want to take on an inherent responsibility that none of us would take on a risk that most of us a half
giving of ourselves to protect others and when we finally make a decision when we finally by force a lot of policemen, now perhaps go you know this is. I can't handle this because I'm trying to defend myself, I'm housing myself to protect you and then you're questioning the very method. If you want to go to Jack Nicholson, a few good men that I take great umbrage of the fact of your questions, very manner in which I put you know, provide that protection grossly over
phrase, but if you think about it from that term, the next time a cop start, you don't have not. You have no idea the next hour police officer stops you you don't know what
gone out. You don't know. What's transport, you don't know what he's experience in the last two or three four days, and so I think it goes back to
not only archers, trying to be more apathetic to law abiding citizens
but also law, abiding citizens, realizing I get stopped by police and I've.
The California rolling stock- and you gotta be kidding me
here. They pull me over. Ok, I'm so sorry, the worst, I think the worst thing is you can do is have that contempt, a cop when the depletion comes up. Do you know who I am bad call dad call I'm an attorney orgies.
They had got because we already have kind of set the tone in saying. Ah, sir, may I help you? Could you please tell me what I did and others just respectful?
and most officers are going to ping on that level of respectability. It's when you start bracing unrighted they get go sometimes the deck and problem, I'm not
in no way my exonerating our place in their son policeman out there that a bad attitude. I say I assume you would you would concur with this advice that no matter how bad the cop, the time to complain, is after
this you're done following his orders and me go to the police
station. The next day, with your lawyer and sue everybody, Edward mistreated, but to resign,
in real time against a cop who is maybe
overtly racist or overtly sadistic or unqualified, Geese Contra, the worst cop on earth, the tie
to punish him, for his incompetence is out
the day after with your lawyer, not by the side of your car at midnight having no,
idea where or how this is gonna go south on you for now
the good advice and the law actually states that even of the US
his actions or illegal at the time to a degree
duty bound to do basically follow
his commands, ok other than that
If he's trying to apply the odyssey deadly forest where that that would be completely off the charts but
If an answer is issuing commander, Europe legally duty bound to obey the commands and then address it. You have redress through the court system, yet redress of internal affairs systems and so forth. That is what I would recommend to individuals and I M a very, very big proponent, of civil liberties of people having their rights. I dont like racism. I dont like counselor heavy handed cops. It come up in just really give off a bad vibes, oppose the other ones in a proficient and looking at officers. They who have kept themselves in shape that know what they're doing that are sharp and everything else, and they come up in there just real nice and easy going. Unless you as the antagonist trips switch, things are going to change and that's the that's it also that I will try to be my partner for like out all the guys in NEO Metro, detail and so forth. All these people that I've known through the years were incredibly professional,
a lot of times you get police overstep the rounds in the best advice I could give to your audience and listeners is you can get upset in an angry? I I've got it for just let the situation go, offer no resistance, comply with his demands and then address it at a future.
When we were in Brett, and I were teaching a class in New Hampshire and we were staying at a bucolic little town there outside it was actually Exeter and I had parked with two tires in the blue striped lanes and I'm waiting for Brett she going to get coffee we're going to go down to Logan to leave this after a week out there, and so I'm sitting there and all the sudden. This overweight, Oscar comes up
We got a belly sagging or call Dunlop's disease, where your belly done left over the belt that this was way down on the side. He just look like a soup sandwich and he starts dressing me up and down telling me
Gaza missed- I don't know you think we are, but we don't put up with this kind of hooliganism be accident. You know you got back
over here and the blue lines you need to get out of here. I'm gonna give you attack it. If you don't move right now,
as we all know that it was a sterile and he just dress me up one side and down the other. Now I just yes, sir, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry and levelled he has no idea the lamb. He has no idea about my background when I'm armed with or not.
And it was a sight o, my god and Break got in- and she tried to talk and he sent me out- you drive in the car he's driving a car, I'm not talking mammals like ok to shut off. I don't,
so we drove away, and it was a great laugh. Hopefully come Logan for three hours was hysterical, but again the guy. Just these probably lucky spot.
Nice guy is not what I would I would describe as an ideal cop and is tat. It were terrible, but I complied
and I didn't talk back, and I didn't let him know I was. I didn't say anything I just yes, sir, I'm so sorry I'm. So I will never do this again. You know it's basically, don't you ever come back to exit again, that's the way. It's you know, I'm sure my pictures up on there
bulletin right now, as it was actually hysterical. Ok, so let's talk all that about guns,
civilian ownership of guns and gun control and condemn I'm tempted just start with just kind of an open
a question for you here just what you? What is it that people do think of motion
Well, don't understand about firearms in what should they understand and what's what's your general view of the the currency
wait in the: U S with respect to the ubiquity of guns and the the justification
when people have or can't find fur owning them. Ok, well, great question: if we let off kind of touching on Us-
initially at the outset of this conversation- and here you have yes, the second amendment the right to bear arms. We have the right to self defence. I will tell you that, from my standpoint, having been a policeman having worked the streets having seen victims, they haven't very intimate knowledge of victims.
In most cases, the police are never going to be there when you need them most, so we need to start with that promise
so just a spell it out a person who thinks that.
They don't need to think about self defence or don't you think, we're home defence in particular, need to think about only a gun,
because they can always down nine when one and someone please
Why is that unrealistic? And certainly there certainly situations in which is potentially realistic? If you can always put a locked door between you and the problem
barricade yourself in your bedroom which-
sustainably. Most people can do imagine you got kids and other bed rooms in the house and suddenly someone's in your house, technically speaking as unrealistic, but
Let's just say that someone can assume that listen,
lock my bedroom door, it's no one's getting into my bedroom. Why
If I ever had to think about that, I can just down nine. When one would you acknowledge it? There's there's somebody for whom that is a realistic self defense plan, or even that seems well. It's pie in the sky is not
realistic. That's that by the time it
this get their most of these events are over. Please
now, our so inundated with calls for service that crime suppression is very low on the order, its maistly disgracing from one called to another. Take our reports, damage control
any a classic example. A few member. I believe it was the doktor with his two daughters and his wife in Connecticut. Yet that's a classic example that in its tragic
But classic example you have you have to understand. These are too bad guys from out of nowhere, and this is what I heard referred to once by a neurosurgeon as trivial, pivotal event and wonderful
phrase, and what that means is that, where you have a number of different, seemingly independent indices floating around in space
but suddenly for no apparent reason. No logic they all coalesce together at one point in space, Bulgaria to suspects, are kind of looking around for something to do, and they just happened to see the wife and you go into the bank and then one thing lead to another and another. You know the whole.
Least responses I understands and effective and there's a lot of controversy over that. I got it, but the bottom line
a lot of times you're on your own and some people say well. I could never shoot another human being then fine. I understand that one thing I tell people is imagine- and this is to be one of my worst nightmares- is having a person, it's a real bad guy and you have to understand their bad people out. There
You cannot negotiate where there is no negotiation with these people. You can't reason with em there's no logic, there's no morality! There's no empathy, there's no compassion! There's nothing! We're talking about people that will kill you, people that will hurt you, people that don't care about the outcome, they dont care, but the results they don't care about, the ramifications. They simply don't care and having a person like that, threatening your sons, your daughter's, your wife, your loved ones, and you have
our ability to counter that that would be an absolute living nightmare by fate. So that was just linger. Therefore, thanks. I think there is theirs
kept us ISM among some people about what,
That's even true myself, whether
even such people exist. I think maybe I mean I'm walking is my got far back too far to the precipice and it is not interesting, but there are
people who are sceptical about just the concept of the concept of evil can be applied to any one accurately in
people's mine there's always hope that you can get through to anyone.
People has been very little time thinking about just if that's the finance,
None of what you're goin bad guys, and then there
the additional truth, which is in fact statistically true
You are very unlikely to have someone like this show up at your door. It's good to server is person going to show up at someone's door, but it's very unlikely to be yours. Guess what go back
If you want, if you raiders, won an interesting reed, go pick up in cold blood by trim and Cambodia, and
it's absolutely fascinating. I've read it probably three or four times, and it is a wonderful reed- is a brilliant writer. What you're looking at are the clutter family in the middle of an open Nebraska. What for
their call way other it? What was a Kansas Brandish address, Holcomb and hear ART Psmith Hiccup
two wells who are forever drive over foreigners sixty miles, I believe, and on the
the rohingya assumption that there's money in a safe and there is no safe and end up killing the entire family. This nineteen fifties this is lit.
Really shocked the nation back then you're talking about the randomness of something like this happen
I'm not saying you have to be paranoid. Another was a nest.
Time to go to the movie theater. You have to low crawl to the concessions Dan and Flash paying the pop weren't machine and have your kids cover from the rear. I'm not talking about.
I'm talking about being aware of your surroundings, but understanding that bad things can happen. Breton idle,
when at nice, neighborhood there been home, invasions, urban shootings, urban rapes and just and random at the most inopportune of times,
so the ability of somebody to defend themselves. You just don't know when it's gonna come. You don't have to be paranoid, but I think you do need to be aware- and unfortunately, I think I've heard is the statement once I wish to God. I could remember who made it, but they said that they ve never met a liberal rape victims and that's very telling
because you know you can have pie in the sky. I want to be nice and soft and warm and friendly to everybody and nurturing there people out there that are not going to respond to that that all they want to do is hurt. You
and because we live our lives in a certain manner. We tend to us
rob our moral values and ethics onto other people. Only really. Why?
aren't you understanding what I'm saying, how why can't you feel the empathy for me when those suspects rape, those two girls tied into better random alive. I understand that you can,
reason with all people. There are only one method of dealing with these people,
our unease, yeah you bring up the the petty case, which I happen to know
What about? I wrote about it briefly in my book. Freeway
I mean the irony there is. These were not particularly so
Harry Guys and when they did this horrible thing, but you can find much scarier people in the annals of criminology. Many.
Eyes were not hardened criminals who had killed people before
got things escalated and in a strange way for for them and on the web,
I would point out just as a matter of from the point of view of self defence. There
these people are living with their door is unlocked the father
only survivor was woken up. We are being hit with a baseball bat, because
Some was actually standing in his house.
Having gained access through an unlocked or may obviously the first line of defence in a situation like that is not to have a house that its
can easily enter silently absolute agreed. Well, you know I'm on the host on a coast on corrupt crimes, I'm gonna be the host on another show called that takes a killer. We found about twenty eight episodes at some time this year start airing and what it is basically a. I sit down for or an hour and a half and depraved these different crimes, serial killers and murderers and re personnel and its em.
Amazing. These cases that are out there. We done like twenty eight different cases. So four hundred sixty sleigh are you interviewing the perpetrator to know now what I'm? Not I'm, given all the information that I presented to you my own words and so forth and having on the case, but it we're talking about people that would have duck yet women from the street from homes and so forth. Take him home rape them beat them mutilate them does.
Number them and eat them very them in the back yard and then way for their wife to come home after working at the bank all day, and we use here. That's evil talk about a partition life
yes, and so for all you wise out there. If you come home to make dinner husband says he's full, you need to be very suspect,
but some of these cases- and I have come across her district beyond Her-
and us, and I ve got a pretty thick skin us,
a lot of stuff images begin, so are their evil petya on that,
promise you just don't know what trip somebody switch. You don't know what causes a person to go off at any given moment and that's the problem and yeah it's it's. It hurts me when we take this very sure, so we have a lot of very liberal people that come to our classes. I have taught a lot of very liberal actors and actresses tv personalities and so forth, who are the least likely that you would ever expect would want to know how to defend.
Cells, and yet they come to us. So the people ask we never talk or that we never say that they are earning else, but you'd be absolutely astounded, and some of these people are
very much anti gun, and yet they all guns, and they she got training- I got it, but
Their stance is one thing, but they also realistic.
They realize hey, there's, there's a probability that that I may have to defend myself before the police. Getter for police respond.
Time is five five minutes on average and that's very fast how much can transfer in five minutes
an entire lifetime. So why would I want anybody to be able to inflict their demands?
their desires and myself and my family. If you have, if you dont, have the method or means defending yourself you're, putting yourself at risk and again it's not
paranoia issues, some common sense. Now it's like having your breaks, checked.
So you don't go skating around the rain. You know keeping your windows clean on your vehicle and so forth. Just so you can see so you can observe them,
you're doing basically the same thing as preventive maintenance, just ensuring that you
and your family are safe, doesn't mean you have to use it, but I'm long with that in hand is not just the mirror. Ownership means nothing. I have a beautiful Gibson, guitar les Paul one hundred and twenty five, maybe gorgeous I'm a guitar owner, not a guitar player, so I'm trying but mere possession of a firearm. It has to be in accordance in attendance with proper training from proper individuals that know what they're talking about that are deadly force.
We understand the ratification of them worse, which do in fact apply. Yet. I guess, on that topic, I'd like to just Jem, get your your opinion on a few misconceptions or would strike me as misconceptions.
First, as one there's. This notion that in order
the have a firearm available to use an emergency. You have to say
were it in some way that is not safe in some way that it has to be out of an available for a kid to pay.
Cup and shoot himself for his sister with and dumb as such is talk about that the safe
storage of firearms, because at the moment this is as a someone who's
trained with you and thought about this, that this is one thing that that rule
I infuriates me when I hear about these just and does not,
they're, not that many, but everyone is obviously a huge tragedy. When you talk about two peoples, kids, finding their loaded, guns and dying as a result, you know unfortunately,
We ve had placed on his, whose children have picked up pistols and shot the offer, and that was off his fault, not the case, because it in secure it properly.
In conjunction with owning. A firearm is responsibility of being mature about it being responsible, paying attention to detail and having seats for the gun safes it gets Cancun, entered with a combination you can bolt them down, and the king and there all day, long with his junior save cracking
at least probably not going to get in it most of these saves probably buy six thousand dollars, but that's very cheap insurance policy. You can be prosecuted in some states if you leave an unsecured weapon and it's used in the commission of a crime against somebody else or causes great bodily injury and or death to another individual. So you have to be aware of that as well. So there is a responsibility that comes
firearms ownership. We tell all of our students you by the gun. You need a safe needed. Keep it away from children need to give them an education. Don't haven't go hands on. You simply tell him. If you see a gun, you leave the area, you tell an adult, you do not touch it in any way, shape or form, and your kind of debunking summon the mistake giving your dress her door isn't going to help putting it in a shoe box. Up in the closet. Kids are gonna, find it God. No teenagers can basically disassemble aircraft carrier for some reason their able to get into the most. You know ridiculous of of areas that you might think it is secure when in fact, it's not so
You have to be responsible and the state of California. You have to have a safe in order by fire. I actually agree with that. What you're trying to do is minimize. You know every single time we have a tragedy. The result of that is hers, kind of a knee jerk reaction and then
Well, now we're going to ban all these we're going to ban these weapons were going to be in this type of round we're going to be on this. We're going to be on that, instead of just right at the outset. Look let's just be responsible about it. So if you, I feel very strong about this, if you own a firearm, you need to be instructed by proper individuals that know their stuff. Unfortunately, the training industry there are
requirements to be a fireman strainer. There's, no betting, there's no licensing, there's nothing near. You could be a
dresser and suddenly decide. I'm gonna be a tactics instructor tomorrow and you can hang up your shingle. It's to me is really absurd. It's in there
bad stuff out there and bad information given out, and you know, we've heard you know some of these individuals say well, if you shoot a guy dragging back into this, alter crime scene of that is on the worst advice that could ever be given and totally completely off base, and these are people that went to vet their background find out they're very disingenuous. They lie out, not lie about who they are and what they done, and it's just you're going to find that out
if you try to bring that person into court to bolster you much dear chagrin, yeah law on this planet and appoint a firearm safety, I should just say the
you emphasise safely to a degree that is fairly
extraordinary and is one of most important things, you teach
and you ve inculcated in me
France's when I'm handling a firearm, the the checking
to make sure it's unloaded lessened
then a dry fire, a pistol. My
Checking to make sure majors unloaded is like a from the outside now looks like that.
Behavior of someone with obsessive compulsive disorder miss like a religious ritual. I check the chamber, I check the magazine. Well, I check the chamber again. I checked the magazine. The magazine well check the chamber again, it's like a moment in life, unlike any other where you have to ensure to yourself. This gun is unloaded and the people who
are squeezing off rounds in their kitchen because
showing someone the new gun they got me. That is a totally preventable
again the note the number of fatalities due to this are not that high. So when we're talking-
fatalities due to two firearms in the: U S,
talking about murders and we're talking about suicide for the most part, we're not talking about accidents, but there are whenever
six hundred her or a thousand to access,
every year, but more than that I want in the tens of thousands,
no, that fatalities in the tender fell, but just in turn terms of of someone's kid finding the gun and and dying or some one think
their gun was unloaded an end and dine those are in
the hundreds. But yes, we have to
tens of thousands of. We have you know now it something like ten to twelve
a thousand murderers and something like twenty thousand suicides with white firearms and again from the press.
Of outside the? U S in our country, like Japan, where here twelve people die from PAN gun violence every years at an actually know what the numbers, but something something
low. This looks completely insane the ambient level of gun violence. We haven't in this society, such as what is your view and if you could wave a magic wand and try to rectify the problem of gun violence in the context
being someone who sees a legitimate need in some cases, or even in many cases, for
We need a firearm for home defence. What do you think should happen in the? U S and well yeah this again. These are phenomenally great questions and first we have a flawless age record for all arming for all these years of training, not one single, not one single fires, miss happen, all of our trading, just it's insane and all over different languages, literally across Europe and the United States and so forth. I would say that, and I get this question all the time for switching from Europeans
The cowboys you know is that you, John Wayne, have that type of thing and you're all cowboys. Well, America is a very unique country in that we're kind of founded on guns, you're not going to get rid of there going to be here forever. There two minutes simply too many, and it's not just the United States now, but the artist proliferation throughout the world is off the scale. Just look at the Middle EAST, and so firearms are always going to be a fact of life. Now the responsible ownership and use of firearms is an entirely different matter, but it any criminal if you can go out and get in a quarter to the heroin use them go out and buy a firearm there out there. I don't know how you could ever possibly realistically
terminate all firearms, although some people say we're just going to ban all guns. Well, say nothing, don't it it's there. It is not conceivable, even if there was the the will
Politically or that within the financial wherewithal a buyback problem,
Gram of three hundred million guns. That also say we're doing one thousand dollars a gun for three hundred billion dollars, we're going to allocate toward buying back
and we're gonna melt them down and turn them into crosses, crosses
is that just a non starter orders and on some other them not even desirable as one audio that's not going to and their people that aren't gonna, give them up. Here's the thing: ok, you got it
They could guns away from the law abiding family man, but the bad guys not going to comply with that now, you're completely defenceless. So that's one argument that can be made on behalf of
the good guys, many of the laws out there, the only people and its fairly obvious. It would seem many the people that are going to comply.
What the newer laws are law abiding citizens in a bad guy isn't going to stop robbing banks, and that is a French. They bankroll. There isn't going to stop robbing banks simply because you have a law against a robbing. The bank is not going to stop doing that. He's a bank robber
and the bad guys a bad guy, and so is it unrealistic that you're going to get a bye bye programme in everybody's gonna buy into it absolutely its complete pie in the sky? That's number one I think more responsible. Is we have enough laws in the books at this point in time? From my perspective, as a policeman, I dont want people who are mentally challenged that have mental issues, health issues. They are firearms. I dont want people that are have criminal backgrounds. Domestic violence
they have access to firearms, some are going to it. I don't know: what's over three hundred million people in United States, you can't stop check and stop gap. Every single measure you can diminish it
so it's so you're in favour of greater background checks. Well, look
the background checks. If you have people that are, I think they were calling straw sellers arise, not sellers
but a guy who is selling like fifty sixty hundred guns, ear and he's not providing background Chechnya. You know I'm not because
look at San Bernardino, the individual that bought those weapons. I don't know if we sold them or gave them to the two shooters, but they didn't go and buy them if they had a friend do it for them
the background check so there's always see that circuitous route. The bottom line is in terms of background checks. If I'm selling to a family member
four and nine or another policeman another policeman.
The necessity necessarily for that when you have an individual who is operating out of his garage or just get the gun, show loophole yeah
I dont and again I am not up to speed on yet at all cause. I don't really deal and thus we don't sell guns at all. I purposely stayed away from that.
But if you have individuals who can circumvent the system come in and grant, you know, purchase fires and go out and use them in the commission of crimes or use em and maybe actor cheaters scenarios, no obvious in against having that individual being able to sell fires in such a manner ass. I think a background check there.
We got now that being said, if you have a background checks in one of the things is whose is instituting the background checks, how many people we have allocated towards providing these? If I'm not mistaken recently, somebody I was like a million guns, were sold in the space of a month here in the? U S, arrogance
Two million here I was well how whose checks on it I mean you have to have somebody sitting at a computer going
region it. That's it from and its amount of information. I dont know how it's done. I dont know manner in which your checked out, I don't know who decides who is on the no fly? Lesser fireless, but that's a tremendous
allocation of manpower hours near so, somebody has to lose policing at. Basically, it is set to back up here
are you suggesting that be the one of the justifications are the primary justice?
creation for law. Abiding people to have access to guns is just they fact there.
With all of these guns in circulation, the
guys. Well enough,
doubly have access to guns of you hear a window break in the middle.
In your house and someone's coming through it
that person in the? U s that person almost sir,
has a gardener, certainly has a gun. If he wants one and
This would not necessarily be true in Japan and that
is the reason why the law
Abiding biting homeowner should have access to a firearm or
are you saying that we should have?
as to it anyway and that's it
has nothing to do with the fact that that the bad guys just buy by
DR accident in the EU
ass can always get their hands on guns. Well,
say you have a second amendment which allows us to have firearms.
But from my point of view, they. Secondly, the sing it into the second amendment is just the viability of its ethics in the present
I understand the fixation on the second amendment from the average gun owners or even the guard, the gun cultural point of view, but from my point of view that the justified
asian for firearms is just the
the ever present reality of what it's like to be attacked by somebody who may outweigh you may be younger. There may be more of them than you, I mean they're, so so it just precisely yet well what I was saying as the set that second amendment reside brought that others said way into the fact that you have the law, the constitution. If you
The second amendment, nobody else, you know nothing affects you right now.
You- and I are sitting Here- were the great city,
everything else you and I are merely interested about meteoric impacts.
But if we find out the next sixty seconds, so we got about a 15lb meteor, that's heading straight. You know that I sent about to bring us right through the deck you and I are going to develop an extreme obsession about meteorite impact. In other words, it doesn't affect anybody
until it affects you. So, if you're the individual, who can't defend themselves, if you're the individual who doesn't have that ability, I think that that that something that I would certainly taken to mine and that's why I believe very friendly that I haven't done anything wrong breaking the law by ascribe to the law of the California condo. So she got to do this. Okay, great, I want to live in California, want to surf in the afternoon special.
Night and surf in the morning. Okay, I guess is the price I pay, so what I'm doing is realistically looking at the situation,
never going to get rid of all the farms, it's simply impossible. So, okay, we've got the laws, so just we have more than enough laws regarding the guns that are on the books just in for some, some of these are getting a bit silly. At times, I feel they kind of overstaffing to get little bit of sherbet.
Ok so be it. But again as a policeman, I have seen the consequences of individual lessened victims in until you go
to a scene or you can smell and see and slip in the stuff that used to be a human being, and you can see the effects of a horrific crimes that have been perpetrated on these individuals and you can see the effects of the love ones that are looking at this. That experiences, you don't understand
No, you don't really get. It is strange, I'm sort of two minds about this, because I can see it. I can stand outside our situation. Do you domestically and see? I noticed
for someone to live in Australia, or
a strategy, unique interesting case, because they did have a gun problem and they more or less did this by back would seem so unrealistic here in research,
As for mass shooting, and now they have much less gun violence. But for me the the
ethical case, does come down to what you just described, which is to be against gun ownership to even wish for
if you had a magic wand, touches wavered and get rid of all guns. What's yours
centrally guaranteeing is that
You know the single mother, or even the single father or just the family who d doesn't happen to be popular
by professional mma fighters. These people can be
ambushed in their own home and they have no recourse but to grab a frying, pan or aid.
and now try their luck with
someone who may have been going to a graduate school for crime in a someone who may have just gotten out of Lompoc or Se
Quentin or somewhere after ten years of you know just lifting
weights and and thinking about how to palm people- and
at the moment of his choosing, comes in
somebody's home and decide
to victimize them. You have to be able,
the argument that, in that case, these people-
should not have access to a tool.
That would allow them to
in some measure, equalize the situation. I think this calculus chain
Just the moment we have a.
those substitute that is a true replacement for a if we come out with something like a super taser which has all the defensive characteristics of a gun, but he is,
back non lethal, then I would argue that everyone should have the right to have a super taser right and not and that we should get rid of guns, but we don't have that end. It just so happens. It
any other weapon. You are going to use a baseball bat h,
air a frying, pan a knife to defend yourself still
to some degree for small, doesn't give you the range of a gun
and it relies on the attributes-
of the person, the athleticism, the youth, the size, the strength still to some degree, and it's not fur,
it's not by accident that you know it's a piece of Andorra propaganda to call the bigger a gun and the Iser, because it does in the hands of a trained person nullified
the differences between people in a size. Strength, athleticism, warrior, oh you're, referring to what we term disparity of force and SAM called it came up with a cold peacemaker. Being the great equal in Vienna is my history serves me correctly, show get thousands of nasty letter,
I guess idiot, but let the bottom line is yeah. I mean we all Lee productive lives
but you have so many other things going on. I don't have time to go to the gym for five hours a day. I don't have time to go the range twice a week as simply don't have that time, even despite the fact of what I do because involved in court cases, we were working on our second buggy at Vienna, kids in graduate school good, I mean just life and my Gulf
a recent survey, so I don't have time to devote myself to being the best Emma fighter out. There
about shooter and everything else. However, I do have a certain ability, when I have a fire had been trained properly, that I can neutralize just
ninety nine percent of all possible threats it may occur to me in a debt of deadly force nature! So, yes, thief!
arm. Does crane equalizer you're not gonna, have some female, whose five foot to that ways all of ninety two pounds, soaking wet it's going to be able to stand up to gather, weighs two hundred sixty pounds out a thank you. The wooden parole tagged port
we'll call to tat brought here didn't die in present right. You have no idea of the bad guys have come across him. We're talkin some hard hard hard did. I mean massively hard, it's tough people, it would scare me and they did,
had the might of our younger and shape you work out everything all she had a partner, its its work
framed, and that's what we're doing that was our stock and rate, but the average citizen they're not going to have.
The average citizen doesn't know what it's like to be involved in an hour
alterations in the street. Those are life and death. When you not talking about necessarily a you know what you tap, the other guy gently in the lab, he gets a little black eye. Little drivel, a bloodless knows ok, give up now it doesn't work like that in the real world you lose the fight. You could die because your guns taken away and you're such a shot gun knows what happens these her it. It's not what you see in Hollywood, so yeah the weapon system. Firearm does in fact place civilians on a footing where there, even if their train, properly again to counter potential threats in some cases. Just in this way, the fire in the proper manner, drawing low ruddy very forcefully say me do that the range and in I think, I've demonstrated here this is this is what would be like if Europe against me in a bad guy and I've done that certain with actors? Will how would you acne do they go? Oh wow holy smoke, that's cool well, but it's also effective and what you're doing is your actually by displaying the fires in accordance with
are you for yourself, you're, actually mitigating the guy goes. You know what I want a part of this, I'm out here and as police, and we see that all the time. I mention right at the outset of this conversation, drawing to low ready on that guy in issuing commands and there's the forty five and ask him later wage and make a move, and it goes one. Are you guys at me as well to put me down like right now? I said Fashion Europe Minute, yet so it what distinction? Would you? May
between owning a gun for home, defends and care
in a gun in a state that allows for this,
civilians to get concealed carry permits because
for me. There's this cover
right line between those that you
Asians and many more factor
come into play when you're thinking about carrying a gun in public and
kinds of situations you could get into as a civilian and also to the sheer fact
having millions of untrained,
poorly trained civilians.
Walking around with guns. I can't imagine that's a situation that cops look at with much enthusiasm, though I'm I'm not in favor of you know. I know some states if you send in your driver's license to a background check. Yours is Ccw. I I don't agree with that. I think I think you need to go through Veta training. I think you need to understand the law just because you don't have a criminal background. We have people out there and I've been to some of these days before we traveling through any of the guy walking into you know, steakhouse with a rifle come on. Give me a break.
And carrying a gun and concealed manner for forty years never been made nobody's ever seen. It never been involved in off duty situation. I've had applied force at all,
I'm well aware of the factors and certainly where the ramifications
The last thing I would want is to be in a movie theater with a bunch of poorly trained people and something happens, and suddenly bunch of people are all train, get up and
starts and rang in all directions. Good God, almighty
so this is, and what do you say to me
idea that the remedy for these active shooter situations that you, the best prophylactic against mass shootings, is to have more people armed
You see this guy from my point. You can see going the way you can see total chaos and
good Samaritans, with guns getting gun down by Cobb's who don't know who the shooter is when they arrive on the same, but but you can also see a good guy with a gun being the answer for a bad guy with a gun in the right situations. Or how do you think about that? As you know
pointed out, you can't make an argument both ways. I think again, if you have people that are carrying concealed weapons that are properly trained, that would be a good thing if you have people that aren't trained that,
react, and now we don't have an active shooter situation, but rather somebody that's arguing or somebody, here's a pop and they decided in. Oh God knows what
Let me put this what you would not want to listen to me play the guitar. It would hurt yours, I own the guitar, but I can't play professionally and if
were to invite me to play at the Hollywood bowl Ivy Vienna just be run tomorrow. Night
you and relate
Nobody wants to hear that.
It's the same thing just because you own a firearm, you don't have a criminal,
I could now you gonna go out and most of the people. I can guarantee that a lot of these people, if he robbed them
and you ve been through some of the an Irishman through some classes, where we have all the moving targets and knife attacked Argus hostage targets, all reactive armor, I put them through they couldn't successfully.
Complete one single evolution, let two days of where we do sixty or seventy different evolutions. Eighty into
is so you learning all these different problems in a local problem. Solving skill sets and so forth and upgrading your ability and you
watch this guy that went out and now he's carrying a three hundred and eighty auto, but he's never fire before it goes to the range fires three rounds, never cleans. It puts it in his pocket he's going to walk around with this thing. He's got a ccw
that's a person. I would stay away from my be watching him because he may not be nefarious. He may not be ill intended, but he just a complete mechanical full when it comes to working with it now suddenly sheets himself.
People images it's a nightmare of the policeman that shoot themselves and policemen that she their partners erroneously. Imaginary.
Have a populous. It has no training, wrote its authors,
I am for the ability to carry concealed weapon, but with the caviar that your train properly and that you have to
go to recurring at least some kind of substantial upgrading of ability and substantial qualification if he will not occur
Yes, I mean I've. The analogy I have drawn up to something like a pilots licence is something where you there. There is a clear, a curriculum
that weeds out dear total incompetence and where your ears,
rain to a certain standard. I just go back to the kinds of training you do. I think once told me that that most cops, don't actual.
We have an opportunity to shoot even move,
in targets. That is that the case, oh my god,
yeah, I mean very few officers, will ever shoot or engage a moving target. Their entire career has most apartments, don't have
that ability- and if even if they did, they don't
no, they don't necessarily have peopled Sunday, but who are capable of instructing and that too. That capability now
It's not only the fact you have a moving target system, but Hooty as in a structure that is giving you the briefing
How to engage. One delayed were not to wait all the rhythmic, all the mechanics are involved and so forth. So it is
only the training as soon as who issues the training as well. There. A lot of police departments were training, unfortunately has by virtue of nepotism, or this is a favorite guy or this guy's training, because that's he's always been here. I know some finest painters that should not be firefighters by any stretch of imagination, at all,
in no way shape or form you need to be hands on. You can't sit in the car and run a range yet to be on top of people, so you can give them training, so you can move with them. You can watch them. You can see problems that are coming down the line, so it's not only the training itself but who's conducting the training, which is easy,
is important as a training itself, but yeah yeah most officers. They never get a chance to shoot and most of the suspects removing yeah so
again, it goes back to the Volkswagen bugging formula, one in how to use
nor should engage a moving target when he's never done. It
a bit. He has our time qualifying or qualify
minimalistic standards. Now you got a high speed, move in low level light and you got it background or full Oviedo not engage with individuals, I'm going to be a nightmare. Yeah yeah! It's got to be a hard time
to be a cop. I can just imagine that morale is
is low and- and this this phenomenon has now been termed the Ferguson effect, which some people dispute even exist, but I think it clearly exists in the sense that in a violent,
has gone up. It's kind of twenty percent in LOS Angeles, has gone up more in a place like Baltimore, which is where its now as high as it was in the nineties, which was that the most dangerous period,
most violent time in modern history in the in the. U S, one can doubt whether this is this is the result of cops
withdrawing and and not policing, though the way they had, but yet just it's gotta, be a difficult time to be a cop
Some of these trends are
clearly desirable and I think the use of body cameras. I think the trip more transparency in how policing is done and the missteps Varick of cops. It has to be a good thing, but the backlash against cops
and the the assumption on the part of so many people that most cops are racists and sadists and miss applying force. I just think it's it's if it's a very toxic time politically from the cops, and so I owe you just you know
feel free to talk about that, but I just got it onto side it. We have two sides of it. We have the reality of how hard a job it is and how, under resource to cops, tend to be in terms of their training and maybe even the qualifications to which their hair
and so is in many cases, through no fault of their own, their place in a formula one car. They have not been prepared to drive. Of course, there obviously other car
who are very well trained and part of elite units to which that description doesn't apply. But then, on the other hand, you have fairly
the things where you have kindly endemic racism in certain departments. Are you have the know that the blue wall of silence, where you have cops covering verb, cops who obviously performed badly
and even unethically dicey, where we ve been talking for Roma,
Two hours now suggest, as we head toward a conclusion
Here give me your sense of just to state of.
Policing and do you know what needs to be done.
If you look at LAPD our special contribution when I was there, it was like the U N, with guns
so somebody said well, you know we're not looking at nineteen thirty nineteen forties where yet me. Basically, I think most of them officers were over sixty male white Caucasians.
For all my training, archers or African American Wilshire Division with exceptional one. Everybody all african American so is fascinating.
As for me, because I've been living on Navy basis, my entire life grew up in a naval. You know cap his neighbor captains, family and richly steeped in naval munition. Never came about
so bad, but guy my life's, I really learned. I gotta perspective the aft
American, these officers themselves
as you know, they run I'll be there. My training officers have been subjected to racism, but I think that-
I have gone away, or at least icing that go away over the years metropolitan vision where I was in for over twenty six years.
Larry was like the: U n you name it. We got an elegant, so I'm the from my experience in LAPD arose
be like that now, perhaps on smaller departments, different departments across United States, you can certainly I could see where there could be a problem,
I always while certainly seen it but by daylight,
They did have the famous Rampart issues,
what you're looking at their just dirty corrupt offers nothing do with racism. So for that I could see
and now I never experience at- I didn't see that those are just dirty officers. They were corrupt cops. In fact, I worked on the idea that the game shitting were bright. Gains is a dirty policemen and he was shot and killed by Frank, lag, shine, killed gains. Who is a police officer off duty working for sugar night famous shooting I was the use of force expert
that defining the department in terms of police officers coming on now. I think it's a really hard time. Other gonna were LAPD has now as it is, the body cameras body cameras, do give you one angle. They certainly represent things. They give you at least some dimension of what occurred. What train
bard in any given encounter, but that's not necessarily the whole picture, because we don't know all the background, all the precipitory factors that went into it all the calls were generated all the different indices and are facts and evidence that were known to the officer the time he gets involved in something so you're saying you know kind of a one dimensional, but it's good and then some of those there's a police policeman out there that shouldn't be policemen, absolutely agree. Their departments that need to be restructured could apps. I would absolutely-
if you show me the empirical that an evidence for these guys are doing an absolutely what I think most police were now are really trying to do a good job in most of these police officers out, there are overwhelmed with the demands, play,
Stoneham. I want you to hazard your life, but I wish we really careful in defending yourself and that's all that's does.
My stock in trade. When I go to court its heart, because people say well, if he is of a time, you should know we're not required to were required to neutralize.
A suspects, actions by law were allowed to apply that force necessary to bring to take assessment and bring bream and control.
Oh, that's brutalization or all the way up to the application, a deadly force, that's a hard hard
line to walk correctly and it's become
harder all the time and I think most police
you're, probably having a time recruiting policeman now and a lot of policing or disillusion I've. I talk to some. I had a great one of my career was phenomenal. I mean the stuff I got to do to the times I had were unparalleled, but that but that'll never rip.
Itself is gone and every shooting I was involved in. I went through the same thing you're brought out. I had that you know go through all the interviews. We had all the documentation there, so use of Force Review Board and I went through all these processes. Just like these kids are today, so everyone every single one if we clean the shooting about
no lawsuits whatsoever never was sued. My entire career, but I applied force a lot of times, bring the suspects under control but you're. Looking at a different era, you looking at a younger generation, the life experience and I had a grot in fifties and sixties and that's when you were,
how to play with lawn darts in your pee you're, my parents. Let me go surfing in New England in the winter, like they're, trying to get rid of me, you know. Nowadays we weave nerved our kids to such an extent that now you take, these kids have been nerf there.
I perhaps and I'm just saying maybe.
Living in their mouths basement. Now, suddenly so policeman, your life experiences.
Actually, behind you like it, used to be back in the forties and fifty six, these browsing and Seventys Eightys. I don't know
It's an interesting dynamic. It's an interesting time. I know
One thing I very committed here: we are providing training to police departments, to police officers to civilians as our passion. If I didn't care about it, I would stop doing it simply. Glutton play play golf plating old,
serve every single day, right work on that Qatar. Well, he here guitar planes. Bothering me I had I not as well
this guy has really been a bridge conversation and it and it's rare for people to hear such in form
point of view on these topics. Oh thank you for sharing,
Is there anything else you want to talk about one that one thing I want to ask you is just when people want
more information about you or training with you wear. Should they go online. While you can go to enter
national tactical dot. Come we have a book out. If you have not read it, recalled the art of modern gun fighting, and I think it's I worked over what two years on it two and half years volume to oil
play right now I'll stand, so we going to come out in the spring within three volumes to the pistol alone, but I talked about shootings. I talked about it with many of the things we talked about today about mindset about bad guys about deadly for safety. So I would urge your readers if they want to fire him to pick the book up and read it. I put a lot of work into it
I can say it's a great book I'll put a linked both to the book into your website on my blog wear. This podcast will be in bed at two that I should be easy to find
the elderly is recently we haven't covered that you think wish
I think this is, I would love to return at the future of you have enough questions may become back in the future and it different topics, terrorism so forth. I work a lot of the folks at experiencing over there in Europe, but I can't thank you enough. Always I have the greatest respect for your writing is phenomenal. Like you, nuts
it's it's way above. What I can do is, is it back handed complimentary sends better than my shooting? Yes,
I just get it, I'm not gonna like no it s, not your shootings, find other than your writing. His wonderful, like I thank you so much for the opportunity to be here. I enjoy you and your wife.
Thus, anyway, would say smooth people nice, nice well. Thank you and I are to be continued because this
These issues are not going away, so they'll be more to talk about absolute more. Thank you, gotta. Thank you! So much
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Transcript generated on 2020-03-24.