In this episode of the Making Sense podcast, Sam Harris responds to criticism of his views on the Apple-FBI controversy and then speaks with Maryam Namazie about friendly fire among secularists, profiling, the immigration crisis in Europe, and other topics.
SUBSCRIBE to listen to the rest of this episode and gain access to all full-length episodes of the podcast at samharris.org/subscribe.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Miriam democracy is an born atheist, a secularist and a human rights activist she's
spokesperson for a variety of organizations for Fetnah, a woman
liberation, movement for equal rights. Now,
for the one law for all campaign, which is against Sharia LAW in Britain and for the Council of Ex Muslims of Britain.
She has a weekly television programme and Persian in English- called bread and roses which has brought
ass in IRAN in the Middle EAST, the new channel tv
she, and I talk today about accusations of bigotry among secularists profiling, the migration crisis in Europe.
All topics that are well known to build report between podcast hosts and their guests, and am I make a few comments at the end of this, but damn all I can say this conversation struck me as more difficult than it needed to be. I hope one day to be better at having conversations of this sort,
But for the moment, what you here is what you get so
here with Merriam Namazie Merriam. Thank you for coming on the podcast cast thanks for having me
before we get into all the things we have to talk about, and we really have a lot to talk about what you tell our listeners a little bit about
her that many will know who you are, and I will
introduced you briefly before we started here, but what's your back?
and and what is it exactly that you you do
I'm an iranian born political activist. I guess that's the best way to describe it
on the left as well and
I'm a campaigner for
women's rights for secularism against Islam, Islamism, so I've starship various campaigns and organizations around that. But for me, I think fund
mentally their different campaigns, that all sort of come to. The point of defending
human beings, citizenship rights, irrespective of very often false identities,
and when did you leave IRAN in, I left you only nineteen eighteen. So when we left it was some a year after
islamic regime took over from the
iranian Revolution, which wasn t originally an islamic pollution and then-
We went to India for two years because some that was the only place we could manage to get into will we came to Britain
a year, but we want allowed to stay so my family are, we actually move to the? U S and my parents to live in Yunkers New York, but I've been here in Britain.
Since two thousand. Now, as I did, you leave IRAN under duress ability.
You fleeing theocracy, or was that with this it was or some other motive to leave. At that point,
originally. My mom brought me out India just to put me in school because the schools were shut.
For a while. In order for the government to islamist
eyes things and we ended up not returning
my father and my three euro system. At the time they had stepped back in your own thinking. My mom would go back, but things just got so bad.
That. My father told us
just wait in India and then he joined us when he was able to get out of here
parents, religious or do they share your views at this point, my task
are muslim. My dad was brought up in a very strict muslim household, so his father, whose
it is. My grandfather was an islamic scholar who taught arabic and
issued fatwas on that sort of thing. So he grew up in a very strict family background but SAM
he met. My mom, who was a Christian, was a protestant
India they got married. My mom converted to Islam so they're, both Muslims but Sir, it
was never strict muslim upbringing. To be honest, I don't really know. I was most
or new much about Islam until I was faced with
slavic regime in IRAN, so I went to make school I never had to veil. I wasn't treated differently because I was a girl were solar
I just to inform our listeners about the proximate cause of the conversations I followed your work. I guess we're
warm of scenes and videos of view. One encountering people trying to know platform you from this
happened recently and we'll get into this, because you you received more of this than than most people, but that the proximate cause of this conversation is that
I noticed you recently calling my views about profiling. Bigoted
and am also, I recently had
Douglas Maria, my podcast, where we discussed the migration crisis in Europe, and I believe you
of his views on this topic. Bigoted at the very least you? U forwarded this open letter that was written to me by the blogger. I wanna, which said
Much of it. I am there, maybe not perfect, overlap between
your position and hers, but- and we can get into that, but I didn't quite called Douglas a big it. Really. She distinguished him from people who she things are true, bigots like Donald Trump, but damn she put him on a spectrum of bigotry.
In which she said he quote, other rises in generalise regarding Muslims and, if not,
taken you didn't quite call me a big at either. At least I think you clarified that by email, but you thought that my views
profiling, are big. It aid or close enough to be troublesome, and I don't want to-
to dive into those issues. Yet I want to talk about some other things we agree about. I just want to know if that's a fair characterisation of where we're starting out,
I wouldn't say their fair, because I think you know maybe something that will make it more understandable. Might my perspective of things is,
you know and something that most probably a lot of your listeners will be able to understand better, possibly where I'm coming from.
Is so we all know about the regressive left? You know- and I say this as someone who's firmly
very, very firmly on the left, who
very often you know a promotion
and legitimize and normalize the islamist narrative of thing, so they will basically see you know
any criticism of Islam or Islamism as bigotry against Muslims, because Islamists often fail to represent Muslims and they see it as a defence of the muslim minority. So you know that
You know, for example, student unions. People very much will consider themselves progressive on the left, who will call me Islam
we'll be cool, no platform me and you know, I think it's very clear to possibly your listeners that I would say that day.
They are promoting an islamist narrative that doesn't mean they're jihadi. That doesn't mean they're going to decapitate anyone that doesn't mean that
Are you know, defenders of a highly
fair or Sharia law, but they are
normalizing and promoting the islamist narrative, which means that you know that their sort of giving at some sort of legitimacy that doesn't
the mischievous and my argument with regards you know the arguments the Douglas Murray makes you know. Tommy Robinson
Continuum, I wouldn't call Douglas Murray a bigger
ashes. I wouldn't call you that either, but my argument is that when we or second sections
eight normalize or justify or encourage certain arts tariffs, it does promote a far right narrative, which is a narrative that places collective blame
that promotes bigotry against people. That doesn't mean that anyone who promotes the far right narrative is necessarily a big it or racist. Citing is
or to how anyone who promised islamist narrative is not necessarily a fascist up, but there is that narrative that concerns me as someone who is both of
him an opponent of Islam and Islamism, but also a strong. You know, defender of human beings, irrespective of their identities and beliefs.
That I think will we should wait to get into the specifics here, but I just I guess it wants a front that I
since these instances of friendly,
fire where I, where I hear you criticise someone I Douglas or I or China, does it
friendly fire being a case where the people on the same side of of in this case, a very important concern about Islamism, are in
certainly mistaking one another for the enemy and
not to say that our positions might not be different. In fact that I think you- and I will probably disagree about what makes
Hence, from a security point of view and and the details of immigration,
policy and I think that
interesting, but I think we can have this discussion without
allegations of bigotry bein the summary of the position you you
I agree with, and I feel like. I've noticed you and I know, and maybe
people are doing this as well, but I
like you and I pull the trigger on accusations of bigotry.
Fairly early and its. It strikes me as pretty counterproductive, because I really do not think Douglas is at all bigoted
and that's not to say that I'm gonna get. You do agree with his views about immigration, but they're not coming from a place of
having some animosity against brown skinned people
or middle eastern people or people from other cultures, he's quite worried about the
piracy and intolerance, and
again. Do I want to table a detailed discussion about immigration for a few minutes but
I just like I couldn t I didn't feel free to react to that. I just feel like, if I may say so, just what what one more aspect to this year's that I recognise I'm worried about the problem of bigotry and I'm worried about this conflation of a crime
says M of ideas in this case Islamism, with an actual
trade of Muslims as people, so do you
Listen. I and many others are in the unfortunate circumstance of
being surrounded by real bigots about big that with their people on the far right who occasionally
make the same rate?
noble noises about the threat of Islamism that we do and then they also say,
Obviously other things at aren't reasonable. In the end they express genuine religious hatred or racial,
blind nationalism or some other ideology that I could want nothing to do with, but give
a shortage of time. It is always easy to determine who is who, and so I find myself in the street.
The position of
hearing, someone makes sense on the topic of Islam, but this person has come to me with their reputation,
pre stigmatized by people like you, ve called them a bigger, say, Tommy, Robinson or Mark Stein, and these are people
Oh, you know, I'm not a speck
familiar. Where I haven't read have books. I haven't read their books
I have just seen them give a speech
an example of this references, Tommy Robys ingested, an interview with Dave Reuben. Where
he made sense, really perfect sense for
an hour, and
say a single bigoted thing right now, I'm not
very familiar with Tommy Robinson? I don't live in the UK and
I just know that here,
under the shadow of more or less constant
positions of racism in bigotry.
Yet I hear him speak for an hour and even when pressed on the topic of past associations with bigots, he made perfect sense and talked about how he
left the ito because of those racist elements that came into it. So can I say something now I mean there's a lot of points you raised and you know unleash a friendly fire and the fact that we are all on the same side. Well,
I disagree. I disagree not not to say that you and I are not on the same side or you know, but but I think that being on the same side is
takes a lot more than just saying that there are people who speak a lot of sense about his thumb or Islamism, and therefore we are on the same side. We might disagree on certain details.
And the example I always give is, for example, am against EU s militarism in certain parts of the world
and the iranian regime also thinks the? U S. Government is the big Satan and therefore because I am opposed to U S militarism ice.
Good side with the iranian regime and a lot of left actually do this. There are people on the left, who are
who have these blinders of anti imperialism. All they see is Anti imperialism and their willing to side with you know the islamist fascists, just because the Anti imperialist, though side with anyone
and, from my perspective, you know your enemies. Enemy is not necessarily your friend, you know. Do you know the decades work? I've done in campaigning, I think my track record is clear- is that I worked with lots of people and not people who are left
Like myself, communist, like myself, I mean, I think I hardly work with people who think like me, but I work with lots of different types of people
I am open to that. I think when you are building movements, mass movements, where you need to challenge something as outrageous as the islamist movement that is wreaking huh
Fuck, you know the country where I was born in the region I come from, and across the world you know their pay. It's basically a killing machine
its destroying lives. Dehumanizing
and children men. You know when you look
did that way, then. Obviously you want to have as many allies as possible, but but
to draw the line with the far right, because I think you know it's not just Islam is Islamism. That's the problem from
in the same way that you know
The example I gave us not just enough to be anti Eu Us militarism, I mean I know you
find a lot of people on the left. What you know is being called a regressive left. What I call the postmodernism left, who will say that Islamist make a lot of sense?
we'll talk about discrimination that minorities face in the West will talk about. You know the attacks on of food. The? U s
a government with the british government on the war on Iraq and they'll make a lot of sense and they do speak some truth. Even if some is do you know, but the problem is he's our half truths. There are only part of the whole story, and I think it is a grave mistake to think that Tommy Robinson,
This of Islam in Islam and Islamism is something that's commendable, because he says similar things to what you and I say I disagree fundamentally on and I think
this is an issue for me that is key because
I am not only Anti Islam, I am not only Anti Islamism, I'm not only Anti jihadism
shall we underline the iranian regime. I am also pro secularism.
Also against religions, role in the state, including Christianity, sprawl and mechanism, as W W Mari makes out, is not some cuddly
you know, lovely a religion and Britain is so much better off than the. U S still part
and in this country, bishops, are in the House of lords. They have not been elected there. You'll have the queen, who is the representative of the church who heads this country. Religion has a
Mr role in this country is well sure fact that its cochlear is because of its the fact that an enlightenment has pushed back that has Charlie
did that has question, but I dont think Douglas would disagree without me. I just think I see what you ve gone here, but it gets don't make this. I dont know why we're making this about Douglas. My one, oh, no, I know sent you a letter, you can interview and talk to her about it, my
you know. I don't spend my days advocating advocating against doubtless Murray. My problem is with the far right with the idea, with big EDA, with stopless limitation of Europe, with movements with political movements that are not individuals but with political movements that I think are
collect placing collective blame on harming, thus the urals, not I gotta- do humanised people all the times, but I also
say one other thing, and this is this thing about bigotry. I think we need to also
very careful, and there is a danger here that seems to be happening- is that bigotry is then being trivialized. It because there are false accusations of bigotry and trust me. I've had them much more than you
play might have you know I'm not only called an Islamic full, but I'm also cocoanut emanated informant, I'm also over rape apologists, because I defend you know
I say we shouldn't blame all migrants for what happens in com, I'm also
old, a undercover jihadi, because I oppose stop islamic station of-
America and Europe that something that Robert Spencer S called me
an anti semite, because I oppose the israeli occupation of Palestine, though I defend the right of Israel to exist, and I am also for the rights of Palestinians and Israelis to live.
Peace. What what I want to say that there are lots of accusations but to hide behind those and then say that you know
raising an issue of bigotry, then trivializing it when bigotry is a huge issue for many of us doesn't really help either. You know- and I think
for me it's very clear I am. I dont have to read anybody's books to know where they stand on the political spectrum. I have been in politics for several decades now. You know, for me, it's very clear. If you promote our culture, our civilization, you know versus the others. You know the barbarians, the savages
is a politics that is other rising. That is generalizing. You know the other and that sees the other, asked the barbarian and savage where
that's not the case. We have so many secularists and free thinkers
soon army of eight years them in our region in the Middle EAST and North Africa, South Asia, road. You know and oftentimes this this that that the talk about migrants, even
now, the storming of migrants as if it's an act of war rather than people fleeing for their lives. Many many of them fleeing the the Islamists,
that so many are against, but when it comes to their victims, the people have very little sympathy.
Seems ok, your ear, alleging acts but know it, but if it is more complex and that's why the
accusations of Vega tree is so unhelpful. Here, as I listened to you, I can't I can't own efforts.
Thing that Tommy Robinson has said, because I am unaware of much of what he said, but where we have
this conversation because I noticed you calling me a big it and you sort of walk that back a little bit, but I gotta get back. I'm sorry. I didn't get back out, because what I said is that it promotes the far right narrative. It promotes a narrative of bigotry and, as I explained before, when I call when I tell the regressive left there,
quoting an islamist narrative. It doesn't mean that there is enormous or fascist they'll come say it's promoting it, but that doesn't mean that it actually is promoting it. In fact, I
besides the far right, such as much as anybody, that's your opinion. What I want to say
is that we don't agree, we don't agree on certain things. I'm that's fine.
Nothing wrong with that. You know an and nobody
but there is something Marian
but there is, there is something wrong with character.
Eyes in this disagreement in terms
that demonize or to use your phrase other eyes. The other person
in such a way as to make conversation.
And reasonable alliances impossible amid Fred
the fire, is a problem. What you're saying
it's not really so friendly into its legitimate fire against people who are also opposed to our views. Your also opposed to, but I think you
Actually misunderstanding. These views in important respects, for instance, obviously Miriam. I am not arguing that the Anna
of your enemy is by definition your friend.
I just think that's a false analogy. I can so let love. Let's forget about Douglas us forget about Tommy Robinson. I can only talk with a thought,
about my own views, but what I want
happen here, is that I use
the term like profiling now in profiling
is a word like torture right
I want to use it in for any purpose other than to declare ones.
Horror and rejection of it brands you as dangerously right wing in most circles and certainly in your circle. I don't think you actually understand what I mean by profiling and I think we'll get into that. But
saying that when you go after me, as someone who is irredeemable
for using the word profile in order to say that to use this word is to make common cause with right wing bigots by definition, one is unhelpful, but to us just untrue.
Right is just a mean that there is absolutely nothing, in my view
about profiling or about security in General- are about immigration and again will get into the details. That is an expression of my big it
three against Muslims against people from the Middle EAST against
their cultures and there's none of that. There's not a shred of that and yet you're right
spawned into it, as though there were, and that's what I am finding so unhelpful you no sound. The thing is that it might be unhelpful to you. I mean. I think this is a thing for me
bigotry is an important issue. I am not saying it's not for you. I didn't mean it that way, but what what I'm saying is that it is a very important matter for me because you, you do often
find in a situation that I'm in that you have people on the far right
trying to use ex Muslims trying to use our criticism of Islam as a way of scapegoating Muslims and immigrants and migrants, refugees, and so it puts me in a very difficult position, because I do feel that I am constantly having to fight on several fronts in
to be able to put my message forward, you are fighting on several fronts, but I notice
starting these fights unnecessarily, as you did with Lee. You might think you here. You might think it's unnecessary SAM, I'm sorry. But for me it is an integral part of the fight against Islam and Islamism, because I think that you know if this fight means that bigotry because
a list of that. It is easy to to humanize migrants and Muslims place collective blame on them. Then I don't think it helps. Are our movement you know, and so from me I feel it is as important to fight against racism and bigotry as
it is to fight against. Islam is from his own horse of enjoyment, but about when you're acting like I disagree with you at well. I don't know if you're just a beamed with me, but it's very difficult for me to have my conversation.
His you're, not letting me finish what I have to say say if you'll just be patient and let me try to explain my position and it would be great if you could try to understand my position as well. Mother thing is that I'm not coming after you who I think this is
a bit of a you know not coming after you, but I am making comments as all political people too, on
positions that I disagree with. You know. The fact of the matter is a: u have come out, and
you ve just said right now that you think there's nothing wrong with what Tommy Robins. Instead for the four hour that you heard him speak, I have a different position.
Tommy Robinson and you know I also have a right to express it now. Even in this country, for example, UKIP, which is a right wing political party, they, for example, have prescribed
They don't allow their members to also be members of the English Defence League of the british nuts
a party, so even there are four. There are right wing parties who consider these groups of the scale and dont want to be associated with them. So it's not. You know unless
show for me to criticise. You know it's not me, being you know, overly a sensitive and throwing out the biggest card at at any opportunity. It's a real concern about the English defence vague. If you look at Tommy Robinson, he didn't leave the english defenceless
because he was concerned about the fascist elements in that. In that group he has continued to appraise and defend the ideal until today, and if you look at his speeches at Piggy DA rallies, for example, he says that he didn't. He realized
that it was too soon. The idiot was too soon for Europe will know that does not actually what I heard him say on a clarify that active on it. Sam, I'm sorry, but I will just say that Tommy has such a wonderful defender, Nano listen. I know it's not that I met Miriam. That's not fair to suggest a single example of a person who I'm actually not very familiar with who I know the name should listen to me because I'm more familiar with you but you're, not characterizing view. He expressed in this energy, didn't see his interview with David. Didn't it
the matter, a lot of listen, a lot of Islamist will come and tell you that Islam is a religion of peace. I'm sorry, you cannot judge political movements by you know Bush!
You that he is gone to Iraq because he wants to liberate women. It's not enough
Sorry, you know if you have read that following my folly, grant fully grant that I'm sorry, it's impossible to have a conversation, because you constantly interrupt me. I let you speak for five ten minutes and I don't want it to be. The sort of adverse hill
discussion because we're not really gonna get anywhere, and it's just that we're not
reach an understanding, and even if we don't agree, I would like us to be able to at least understand-
the persons position, I me I told them sandwich mean, but I dont want. I don't want you to assume a disagreement where there isn't one and when I interrupt you, it's because you not letting me speak, you keep thing, but but but there is no mere man, the Merom interrupting you. When you are attacking me for a view or or criticising the view, I dont had Tommy Robinson, ok, but I don't know why you take it personally when I criticised not not taken a person, I just don't want us to boys. We wasting our time or listeners time. That's that. Is it not a waste of time because isn't this far reason? Why we're having this discussion? Because there are differences of opinion? No yet, but I'd about easy, as we haven't actually got into those differences of opinion. Listen, I will not. I will let you say whatever you want to say. My job is not interrupt you, but I do have a job to try to get
our conversation on track and I'm noticing it go off track and your assuming that I have far more affinity for Tommy Robinson that I in fact do and when you summarize his view as being, in fact opposite above the only interview I've ever heard him give. Then I like, I can't
can't sign off on the dotted line. There is a yes ass, the Tommy Robinson I was just offending. Ok in the interview
they Reuben here,
plain why he left the adsl, and it was in fact because he noticed racist elements join it and he couldn't be
He added with it. So if I may
maybe he's lying, I dont know, but that is the Tommy
and I was defending. However, typically again, I don't even want to talk about Tommy Robinson, I was just using him as an example of someone who's come to me. Priests
Dogmatize and who then express his views
that makes sense, and I'm just I'm in the position of not knowing who is who here and all I can
Think about with authority are my view
and I notice that the same kind of thing is being done to me and that- and that is what I am finding unhelpful. But again doesn't this is not even the mentally they're, not that we are not victims here, and there are many people who come to my two said to me: pre stigmatized, us
You know what that's life, that's politics. The fact of the matter is that we all make statements and we will have people supporting
criticising it and we need to either defended or and so on and so forth. So I think you know in us starting a conversation
but how one is stigmatized or you know how they come into conversation with people having prejudgment of them. Will that exists in every
enough for everyone and every movement what we can
do is to try to clarify our positions and to try to make clear why we say certain things and why we are opposed to certain things and lie. We defend certain things and that might be the most helpful way to go about it, but you know
fact that, where predicament eyes will everybody is, you know it's unfortunate that there are accusations of bigotry that armed true, as I have said before, I have been accused of it many times myself, but I would say that it worries me when, because of this sort of false
two sessions of bigotry that bigotry now seems to be trivialize now and the minute you do actually talk about politics which are bigoted, which are placed in collective blame that suddenly you know you get this sort of
fight pushed back saying. Well, you know everything is pre stigmatize and
you know the accusation of bigotry doesn't wash anymore and you know where, as it is, a real concern for a lot of people and it's important to be able to still say it and also to call out when it is false, but also to recognize that there are movements, political movements that are
promoting a positions against sherry on Islam in order to scapegoats.
Mobile minorities as well as migrants and adopt the position that I come from, that you know from me, I want to fight against this phenomenon.
Amazon while at the same time making sure that that fight is not used to scapegoat again and people who are peep will like anyone else and
have different views and values and cultures amongst them. It's not one mass. You know it's not. I dont prescribed the clash of civilizations sort of thesis where it's us first
Then I think there are many of us across borders and
palm believers, Anon and
others who are on an opposing sides, so I think that's ok
well, let us talk about the details and seems to me. We have two topics
related and though there basically the same topic, but they show up differently in our conversation about these issues, one is profiling and the others
duration and I view them very much the same way. But let's talk about us a star
with profiling and what I have said about profiling and what you think about it, because clearly thank my
He is about. Profiling leads
kind of collective punishment. Collective blame
energy to the bigger to the world, and- and I just think That'S- that's untrue. Sola, let's let we'll talk about that. No we'll talk about immigration,
and then let's just assume, as you know, that in the background for those who are familiar with your work, we are having this fraud
conversation, against a background of considerable agreement about the poor,
problem of Islamism, the problem of the opera,
in the muslim World, EAST and west the intolerant,
its born of that they put the problem of the regressive left becoming apologists for all
so we agree, probably across the board on those
points, but now we're talking about how the West
should respond to these
security concerns, and you know at airports with
the security apparatus of a state or added at the borders of states, so just dumb and briefly on profiling, never again profile
Is this dirty word and I dont think it should be, but I
inherits all the baggage of other ugly words like pedophilia,
or beast reality or torture, and to the moment you seem to be giving a sympathetic
rule of this word you. You have a lot of work to do, but it
my view is all
Profiling is, is
to use some statistically
relevant information in one's self defence.
To be against profile and across the board to be against profiling of any kind is to be against.
Using any relevant information to solve
on security problem, so, for instance, in a being against all
a violin in
intelligence gathering out in the world.
To say that we,
spend equal time scrutinising the amish or the Anglicans as we
the members of the muslim community, or indeed of the Muslim Brotherhood were allocated because to focus on my
limbs at all, or even any specific group of Muslims is profiling, and so I have just put that EU aid is, wouldn't it be rash,
when looking for suicidal terrorists who are planning to target civilian say to spend equal
all religious communities. At this point I mean enough for me. I think
Why should the marker be even the idea of the fact that these people are characterized only as Muslims
people have a million characteristics that define them and that they define themselves by register
Give you an example. You know if you look at those who have carried out terrorist attacks, for example- and we are only talking about here in the west- terrorist attacks take place every day in the Middle EAST, North African, South Asia, and we hardly get to hear about them, but you could say, for example, that it is
the main characters that affect their Muslim is it that they are university educated in atomic weapons and talks about the Jew Hobbes from Luton. Is it something specific to do with Luton? I think you can pick out any one of these things and if you want to say that this is the reason why these things happen. For me, I think it's not necessarily that their Muslim that it's happening, it's not necessarily that their refugees or migrants or university educated, but it is their political stance that determines that they are jihadism terrors,
and it comes to behaviour rather than the fact that their brown or that their Muslim or that they come from IRAN or Iraq or where? What have you because, as I said, you know, not all Muslims think the same just does not all Christians think the same. You know and that
just like every you know, not necessarily every white male represent Minerva Ali, also not
three Braun Muslim represents Sharia values, and so I think there is the danger which profiling
funding is an ugly work, because I think it his ugly. You know in the sense of the fact that it is seen to be. You know, profiling of blacks, for example in Amerika. It does have that history to it profiling, Muslims it. It does raise those very same connotations and I
Thank you. I think there are some security experts that would agree with me as well that you need to profile behaviour rather than one's race or religion, and so on and so forth. Yes
profiling is often assumed, has some racial component and there is such a thing as racial profiling. There's actually nothing about my argument with respect to profiling for jihadis. That considers race a relevant variable.
Gets it would be a starkly misleading variable. So it is.
There's nothing racial about,
I recommend, but I bet you just
I am slightly mystified by
you just said, because I mean what percentage of jihadists do you think our muslim
SAM. I think that is the wrong question. I'm sorry! What were you might ask? What you might think is wrong to look for jihadi by us, but but listen to me. I mean the thing is that you know what percentage of Muslims are jihadis. Obviously,
a large percentage. You know, even if they used to be Hindu or Christian, they are now com.
Sunday have become Muslim, and so therefore a large percentage of the jihadists are Muslims. Of course, there is a link with Islam, I'm not saying that there isn't, but what I'm saying is that you cannot just
that, because someone is muslim, they are you hardly of exactly so profiling Muslims. Does that
It doesn't look like some of my perspective. I can explain. Biomedicine upper limit is giving us the more details, and I wish my son but put again you're talking and vague generalities. I want to give you a specific mankind. Sick. I understand everything I say seems to be fake generalities to you and everything you say seems to be on point
I'm sorry, I don't I'm not able to express myself as well as you can, but what I'd like to say that in that? The point is that when you profile
no there's. This argument that Muslims are not a race and therefore anything that targets Muslims is not racist and racial, because they're, not race, but the reality of it is that they are seen.
To be a minority in the west there
seem to be a minority religion, a minority group that is taking over a christian Western Europe and therefore, when you talk about the profiling of Muslims, even if there are also white Muslims, it does have those connotations and my opinion and, as I said before, profiling Muslims isn't going to help us fight terrorism. What we need to do is profile Islamists and that, I think, is where behaviour the behaviour of far right jihadis and his from his thoughts where we can.
Manage to make inroads into this rather than conflate, Islam, Muslims and Islamist. I really think there's a misunderstanding at the bottom of this Europe
airport in my interrupting you as hostile, but I keep
detecting misunderstanding- and I just wanna short circuited edit, your will. I wouldn't do that over the course of five hours, or we can do it over the course of ninety minutes and I'm I'm just trying to to use your time and our listeners time efficiently. So may I think you're reading more hostility into my interruptions, then is there because there is none, not eating hostile, I'm not waiting hostility. I think there is there. Is me some days. No misunderstanding. I think we just don't agree, and I know that's what the issue is just let me interrupt yellow, but more
because we would I had occurred,
when you say we need a profile for Islamists, you could say we should pay.
File for jihadist straight with that that the thing that I am arguing for
is that we need to admit,
that we know what we're looking for? If we
we're looking for jihadis, and we admit that
hundred per cent of jihadis are muslim, then the very
of being Muslim is more relevant in the search for jihadis. Then, the very
but of being Amish is in fact, if we could be absolutely sure that a person is amish, they suddenly become come
completely irrelevant. With respect to the search for jihadist.
Now. I will grant you that there are other points
problems in the world beyond jihadism, their other forms of x
famous their other forms of suicidal terrorists even and were well
about them too, though, not in it,
find of number as we are with respect to jihadism now. But if you're,
Looking for jihadis, let's say you: you work for the FBI to not profile to be committed to not profiling at any cost. To say we are going,
scrupulously fair. We are not going to single
Muslims, in any respect, if your workin for the effort,
That means that every time
you interview and mom at a mosque to look for any.
Troubling signs of radicalism in his community.
Will then be obliged to what in
the Mormon Tabernacle Choir to see if they ve witnessed troubling,
kinds, radicalism and their community amateurs, you will be obliged to delay
really and consciously waste time in this
This of not profiling, till two to go to a mosque is to profile for the variable of adherence to Islam to some day,
and we see what you seem to be saying initially is that is
Fair is other rising, is collective punishment, and now,
suddenly tell me we. We should be profiling for Islamism, so I see
contradiction there, and I would like you to explain that contradiction and that's how I think what is fundamental problem here
and when there is criticism of far right movements and groups there is it, then that there's that's a hugely different from targeting individuals. Believers based on the very fact that they are believers. If you are part of a fascist movement, then
your politics is very clear. If you are a believer, you can be a secularist, a feminist, you can be even an atheist. You know, and you come from muslim background, so there's a huge distinction between targeting a groups like the English defensively target,
king Islamists and I'd make very little distinction as though others don't between jobs,
he's an Islamist. I see them as part of the same movement, doing different pop parts, mum that move and taking care of different aspects of that moving
the jihadi saw the military wing and they use them is very often are you know, promoting it politically,
and by various ways. So so too, too, to say if the terrorist attacks are taking place by a movement by a political movement of far right political movement called Islamism, then targeting the behaviour and profiling, the behaviour of those who are carrying out or susceptible to carrying out
I stopped is very different to saying one should profile anyone who is a Muslim, because every jihadi is also muslim. You know
yes. Every jihadi is also is also Muslim. That's not saying anything, it's not giving the whole truth and for me, therefore, I think profiling should be done with regards behaviour and not placing collected claim. I have a huge problem with placing collective blame on populations just for the very fact
they were there. Muslims in other reality is that people are born into a religion out of no choice of their own. The very fact that, out of some misfortune of luxury
I was born in IRAN and I have the label of Muslim on. My forehead
you know until the day I die unless I make this very difficult decision,
to leave it unto publicly, leave it, and even then the far right will call me an undercover jihadi. What I'm saying is that you know people are much more than the religions of their birth. They they often had no choice to it. That choice. Lack of choice continues to follow them throughout their lives and to profile them and to place collective blame on them and equate them with Islamist is not right. It's not
there and it doesn't see the reality that Muslims are people like anybody else. They have a million different beliefs and to you no sort of,
how much a nice them and see them as this one collective action behind them over to the Islamists book, but no mention that are fighting it fighting is them
but I'm not too, but I'm not doing that, but but Maremma not doing that, and as hang you getting ok you're, not doing that. Some I'm talking about what I think the problem with profiling and collective blame
I'm not a personal attack on you not taken it personally under I'm just trying to get on attempting to express
my views about security, in this case profiling. Yes, sir, but I am also concerned about Security SAM, you know
but Mary would marry me, as I saw us, there's nothing up. The only
thing I've said about profiling comes out of my experience.
And again when I was talking about profile. Initially it was at the airports. Rights. Are you getting on?
fines, and you see that
Kind of security theatre. Where we see people who are obviously not jihadis obvious
they have not been recruited getting, sir,
with the same kind of scrupulous and intensity. As
People who you might worry could fit a reasonable profile of a jihadist, and
my argument here is that we have to
now that we have a finite amount of attention, we have a fight. We are finite amount of resources and we
could never deliberately waste our time now. There is a role for random searches here, which which
Greece has everyone safety and so randomness should be included, but what everyone has,
Our galling or many people have found galling are obvious waste of time, knowing that our resources are limited so again, so
to take it out of the airport, as I try to do a moment ago, if you're going to profile based
Hardly on behaviour, which is the behavioral profiling is, is certainly positive.
And I would agree with most of what you need to do is- is to profile on the basis of behavior, but it here
into a religion or to a
a NEO Nazi organization or whatever your identity is, is a type of behaviour right. So if you're,
looking for jihadists and you wanted
reach out to the community of people whom I
be aware of the g in their midst. You're going to be
reaching out to the Muslims, you're not going to be reaching out to the Mormons an end I spent. Can I find this again to some of your mind. There is a difference between a religious believer versus the NEO Nazi. Anything, that's where you know that's my issue here is that of horribly. You said of you just said something about where you gonna person, whose
religious or a NEO Nazis very different than the the fact of the matter is that, for me, a NEO Nazis like the Islamists serve our group. You know those who are part of a political movement hop certain characteristics
very often, we see that the security are actually following people who then gone and commit crimes. While why haven't they acted more quickly? They should be waiting until we're at the gates of an airport to to be able to find who,
Oh you know of willing and able to commit atrocities against the population at large. You know you said something about well, we should focus on those who are obviously muslim. All who is that you know I went today.
I: U S with them my husband's young son
was thirteen at the time he was taken away and fingerprinted and question he is born in Britain, but he looks obviously must look muslim to them, and you know only my husband now say he's a husband
do you for forty years where opponents of the iranian regime he's been atheists, for God knows how long you know him
apply for these visa now, because he said he's. Also,
that at any Rania National, where is the Iranian?
government is constantly threatening us with dad. So what I want to say is that, just because of the fact that we happen to be Muslims as well or seem to be, Muslims doesn't necessarily
mean that we are, we should be more susceptible to profiling than someone who's amish. Why should we? I have nothing to do with you as soon as movement. I hate this on this movement. The reason I'm here is because I said that, because I spent a lot of my life,
king it. So what I'm saying is that the what profiling does is it places collective blame? For me, this is an important issue. What it says is that, just because all jihadism Muslims, therefore all almost limbs are fair game. I disagree in the same way that you have a lot of white of far right and terrorists in the. U S. You know to argue, therefore, then, that every white male needs to be targeted, because every
or every christian White male Christian needs to be targeted, because in America hundred per cent of the white terrorists are christian under white on their male misses the point,
it doesnt. It doesn't necessarily miss the point. So, for instance, if we had a global influence because see Mary, I'm in a spent pudding pulling aside everyone,
male at the airport, at your actually wasting security tunnel or sorcerer war and the lack of resources. You should be. Actually you know.
Profiling. Muslims is a waste of time. Well knows, waste of time is just
just imagine analyse away. You just said your for behavioral profile and sought out. So is again this confusion creeping in here, because we're talking about airports and we're talking about Inter
what in the world. I am delighted with the conclusion is that you think, because someone is a Muslim, therefore, that's
behavioral issue, and I'm saying it's not because what I'm saying is,
People are more than the religions at their born into it. Of course, they are, of course they are, but if you're going to reach out, if you're a government- and you want to reach out to the community to find evidence
dangerous behaviour? What com?
unity. Are you going to reach out to elude limbs?
you can say it that way, it use
to be saying that on the one hand, that that is collective punishment. If the FBI is reaches out to the muslim community for help that
when, when the israeli government places collective blame on air,
a boy and man from you know every boy of twelve
but whatever onwards is seen to be a terrorist that is placing com.
To blame because there are many people who are not terrorist war, not with Hamas. Of course,
I am saying is that it miss when you target entire groups of people based on
you know their beliefs based on how they look you're missing the point. If security is an issue, if Islamism,
problem. You know just Islamism measures at a beliefs. I start with the: U S, governments relation
should the saudi regime
open I agree with the other than I am able to breathe a word about. I'm just saying you know, let's not keep on focusing on
targeting Muslims and migrants in that country start discussing the? U S, governments relationship with with,
How do you think you're gonna get you're gonna get no argument from now on that point, but a little
I'm not again, there still amorium you're still, I feel like I'm getting sprayed with a fire hose hero of misunderstanding: you're, not family, just
green? We're not disagree, we're not we're, not least because on the one we are on the one hand, on the one hand you are advocating behavioral profiling right, but then, when at when I go to
Talk about what that entails. You push back reflexive league against the so called collective punishment of
behavioral profiling. What do you mean by behavioral programme? He explained because when you say behavioral I think you mean the world because their Muslims, that's behaviour that sir, you know,
and therefore their fair game too, to be profiles. And what I'm saying is that no because religion is alive
various people lived in a million different ways if we
once you actually not waste these securities time, you know it. It would be best that the target this far right movement and separated from
people who also happens to be most okay, so again, specifics here. So I work for the FBI and I
I have eight hours today that I can use to make the problem
of jihadism and Islamism. More generally go away, so I
have a check list of things I could do. I could interview the Amish. I could interview
the alarm at the local mosque or interview the ambassador of the saudi envies. That's that I should also do that. I agree, and I could enter
view the mom at a mosque that is well known to be a solitary mosque right philosophies,
and you are targeting Islamists you're, not targeting Muslims. That's a different, but above all of course, everyone that mosque will say that I'm targeting Muslims right is
Finally, I am not targeting the Amish right.
Ignoring the amish is ethically okay. To ignore,
the amish in my search for jihadists. Listen, I think sound. What's happened is said. There's a confusion here between individuals and political movements.
Yeah, if you profile individuals, there's a problem there, a few profile or target movements, mosques, Islamic, organizing,
since this is a different matter, but their filled with individuals, their filled with,
the visuals who feel targeted as individual it. I think that this is a conversation that we sort of need to wrap up, because the word not kind-
to reach and understand. I think we're just actually get into the legal basis for understanding. Now I don't think so. I think that the fact is that when there is a question of racial profiling for exam,
pull or muslim profiling. I see them very much as being the same you're talking about targeting groups of individuals. When I talk about collective blame, it is about human beings, not about political movements. You can make collective judgement on this.
On political movements on whether they are left, whether their right, whether there far right, we can't do that because we're talking about movements, we're talking about
organizations states, oh
No certain mosques, certain
you hide. What does that mean? It's also a certain moss, airy defence
so there's a mosque in my community that is well known to be assessed
I must say, as profiling, Muslim some locate button
I show up with a mosque. I may member of the F b I show up, and I talked to the mom and I want to know if he's noticed any radicalism,
community and he says- listen, I feel profiled here
because you ve come to a mosque simply because, where a mosque- and this is true-
the legitimate. This is collective blind. You you have to show why you're there right you're, not there, because your profiling Muslims, of course, on four on profiling- salami Muslim here or there, because it now Selassie Muslims is like saying you know the far right. Just Christians. Well, you here,
and make the Christians and the fascist far right in your nazis are two different things in the same way that Muslims and this limits are two different things up. So I think targeting Islamists profiling, if you or if you'd, like to use that word profiling, Islamists and jihadis, is very different from put profiling Muslims and that's where my point of contention is welcome.
It's when you profound Muslims or Christians or whatever iranian or anything of that nature, you are placing collective blame when you profile political movements and those who are affiliated with jihad jihadi with Islamism, with the Christian, far right
what have you that's a very different thing, but boy and girl and political, a sort of analysis of things rather than you know
let's just find the first Muslim we can see where I am now. This is really a distinction. I think without a difference was still talking about the asunder
are we were talking about vast numbers? Things, no noble,
Talking about vast numbers of people contention is again,
What we were disagree about, the disagreement, which is frustrating just think of how this plays out,
in detail? So if you think the agreement signed some,
think we harm, if you think it's a legitimate profiles, philosophy muslims there.
Someone who's dressed like a salivate in the airport, whose D
glaring, his his or her allegiance. If you were in the Nick Nick COP in the airport
declaring your ideology with your your me. I I agree that the neck is a flag of the Islam Movement bought and not necessarily everyone wearing a copy is an Islamist. Some come from countries where it is part of it is in force.
Of course, another being forced to wear and signs of what exactly so. You know, I think,
should move on from this discussion. I think we do. We can see where our differences lie are honest. I can't Maremma honestly, you you're just here to say that there are one point: six billion Muslims who should not be collectively
punished, but there are some subset of those Muslims. Literally
hundreds of millions of them who, by you
we're definition can be collectively punished.
Well, let's say the bombing of a abortion clinic, let's say profiling, all Christians because of christian right
men's targeting you know, plan parenthood, clinics or it is
targeting the christian right. That's the distant in China.
One is targeting a religious right wing movement. That is.
Killing. That is whatever you know, trying to promote one form of terrorism or the other versus just ordinary believers, and I think that it is a dangerous thing to target Orton about Marine more and there is no bright line between ordinary and extraordinary was there is there? Is
There is thus not you can't even be drawn ethnic Cobb as you by your estimation, right,
is, there is no barrier simply is not right line here. You cannot profile people based on how they
press. I work, I would agree with you in general. Yes, you agree, but the points, no ok by me, you're you're, saying
There are people on this of the Christian right in the. U S is fully thirty percent of the. U S: population ray we're talking about a hundred million people right is so
so you're saying it's. Ok if we had a christian right, fascist movement that we had to get,
more information about. It would be ok to focus on the HUN
the reservoir of a hundred million people, who could
have some greater knowledge of that movement and ignore,
The two hundred million people who pay
probably have no knowledge of that movement, and that is profiling. That's also
by your definition, collective punishment right, it's not! It's not color
the punishment because they are adherence to a political movement, is very different. Inside challenging nazi sms, I challenging challenging the KKK it's very differently
from challenging velvet who I would examine, or it's always or putting all Japanese and some sort of camp? It's a
very different thing you know
its challenging rather than blaming, all Japanese, all Germans, all Muslims. All Christians is target
but it's nice and nobody's away. I mean all of anybody again to bring us mackerel filing does function. A key word is what, in my opinion, find listen as having to bring us back to lived experience will, as I was just traveling with margin. I wasn't in Australia and we took three plain flights together, so we went to. I had the pleasure
going through security with him three separate times in airports, and he is on the record as being against profiling, I'm on the record
being for profiling under some control. We talk about this while going through security right now. My
view of profiling is actually what I call anti profiling, which is which is actually does not
wasting time. Obviously right so ignore
alleging that we know what we're looking for and there are situated
and where you know you, I'm going through the airport and fully fifty percent of the people
see, I can rule out at a glance as there being a zero probability that they have been recruited by jihadist organization. Now the total
quality of those intuitions can be captured under what you are calling behavioral profiling. That's fine is certainly not racial. Profiling has nothing to do with race and so going through security. With moderate we're talking about this, and I and I say: ok, look look at that family over there. Would you be willing to get on the plane, knowing that they did not pass through security,
would you please would you be willing to bet your life and the life of every one else? On the plain that this is not a jihadist family preparedness in the next hour to blow themselves up and below their children up, can you get the whole gushed Altea based on
how they look, what they're doing, and he and I reached total
agreement in real time you did, but if I was down the plane with you, I wouldn't have agreed an out and out. I think that the issue is what what
we do know some seven thirty and with only talked about profiling and either positions,
we're just rehashing old stuff, though, that there are actually not so clear
but the list was move on, the immigration will, what will will get into the weeds in a similar way. People really want us to talk about a immigration. You ve been very outspoken on what you call and open borders
policy and you have alleged least that's what how it seemed to me
that anything less than an open borders. Policy is a kind of collective punishment or bigotry, or a just. A shocking lack of compassion for people who are who are fleeing
the war torn areas of the world. So I just want you to to just explain what
your position is on on immigration and the migrant crisis in Europe. Yet well I mean I think you say I promote open borders, because I think that it is important for people who are fleeing. You know, let's, if you look at the top five refugee producing
countries. You know if you look at any of them. Syria is the first one. You know you can see the reasons why people are fleeing. It's there
barrel, bombed by the Assad regime. They have ISIS
one hand there being bombed by russian forces on the other. Is the reactionary groups fighting there as well? So it makes perfect
sense. If any of us lived in those societies, we would most probably also want to flee. As you know, if you look at what is happening in Syria, four hundred seventy thousand people have been killed. That's eleven point: five percent of the population has been injured or or been killed. Life expectancy has been dropped to fifty five point. Four years. Forty five percent have moved. Four million of them have fled the country. Six point: three million are internally displaced. So if you,
does huge numbers uniting? Oh, my goodness, what what's the least we can do in order to sort of help people who are fleeing those off
conditions and I think none of us dispute the fact that it is awful it would be to open borders. I think when borders are
closed and people are languishing behind them in my
tens, for example, in trying to get into Turkey behind barbed wire? You know it is
something that I think is is horrendous. You know we should be opening our borders. I think there's a miss misunderstanding here, though, that people think that, because I'm pro open borders, it means that it's a free for all. Now it it means that people are processed,
Billy as well that they are interviewed, as is always the case. There is no distinction between the processing that takes place in America and that which takes place in Europe that it's the same. I've been involved.
A refugee resettlement work, for example, I worked in the Sudan for two years with the: U S, refugee resettlement office, we settling people into the United States. I've also, though, dealt with the asylum procedures, both in the U S as well as here
in Britain, the procedures are very similar, their based on the nineteen fifty one refugee convention and the sixty seven protocol. You know many of them are processed by the: U N High Commissioner for refugees if it's in
countries bordering usually the countries of their thing from, and then there's asylum procedures within each country like the. U S has its own procedures, Europe has each country has their own, but that their basically based
on the? U N convention at Porto called pertaining to refugee, so open borders doesn't mean it's a free for all. Obviously,
You know asylum is not a right for those who are war criminals, those who have killed those who have committed genocide- that is part of the refugee protocol as well and
For you know, if someone is guilty, if someone has committed a crime, they need to be prosecuted, they need to be jailed, but none the less that doesn't mean that people who are fleeing for their life shouldn't have.
Protection shouldn't have some form of refuge, and I think that we have a responsibility to help people
You know who are in more difficult circumstances.
Nora Sarge. You make a distinction between political refugees who are fleeing political persecution and violence and more ordinary economic migrants who are just simply looking for a better life in the West blow.
Now at the end of the? U S: asylum procedures in Europe, the? U N! It's yours guidelines! It says that a refugee is someone who has a well founded fear of persecution, not only because of political opinion.
Because of race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group is well, and therefore there are many reasons why people flee
sample, membership in a social group includes possibly atheists. It includes women who have faith,
honour crimes, or
GM and so on and so forth. You know, so there are a myriad of reasons why people flee not just political. You know, I do think, though, that this attempt at crook I sing and making illegal people's flight, calling them bogus talk.
About the distinction between economic and political refugees. I mean look at the situation in you in in Syria. Let's look at the situation in Syria
does anyone really think that there is any part of that country where
people are coming and invite the aggressor criticism you're getting, but the idea that criticism Marian, let me just give you more facts.
On the table? So you can react to them. I think the criticism you're getting as one the phrase
Ben Borders Sea
to signify that there is
vat in first of all, and I think Tuna Taylor, Stairs vetting, of course, there's vetting I've. I've worked in the refugee feel for fifteen years, and I've been involved in vetting
central saying that I think I'm the only one in many of these conversations that have been involved in betting of your with assumed for beer, blue, open borders. Look a separate from that fact. Look. It is about a basically
and right when I talk about the right for everyone to have an education for an end, to faith schools for the right to food for everybody, irrespective of
you know where they live and how much money they have? These are huge max
The list you know human demands, funds that are often times on attaining,
I am possible, possibly they might even seem to be like dreams, but we need to always talk about the big ideas: the big dreams.
In order to be able to have a little impact in people's lives. When I talk about open borders, it is about the fact that look, there are people who are fleeing their lives. They are fleeing for their lives.
Men, women, children who have have gone through the most atrocious things you know and who
literally dying to reach safety, they are literally dying in our in our seas in mountains at borders.
Oh I'm, I'm calling for compassion, ass, someone who is it considers myself a human
rights campaigner. I am saying that we should have compassion wish opened borders that doesn't mean that people should be processed. That doesn't mean that
war criminals, should be allowed in, of course not. But what will marry him? I don't think as anyone listening to this conversation, who doesn't share your compassion for the people who are fleeing for their lives, I certainly shared so on the slope hails it, but there are other people we are talking about. There is the fact that in many cases, something like eighty percent of the people showing up it's been reported
are men and, if you it is, if it was purely humanitarian, you would expect equal numbers, men and women and children, or some semblance of equality there and they're coming not from Syria, but from north
Africa or Eritrea or other countries, and there they clearly fit the mould more of economic migrants, and I'm just asking you do you want
Differentiate there, or do you believe that the border should be open to all economic migrants as well? Since I mean,
look let let's let us be clear about the statistics. If you want real statistics, are not what the far right says,
look at the statistics that the? U and high commissioner for refugees issues. They are the ones that gives statistics globally on the numbers of refugees where they can
found who they are and so on and so forth, and it's very clear that fifty percent of syrian refugees are children, its
equally divided between women and men. Fifty fifty, of course, you have more. Obviously
This includes all the statistics are that's what I want to say. Not just those entering Europe, but also those going to countries bordering Syria, for example, so it you know- and I find this interesting- what is this
Hatred of young men are not Express Enhydra, Nano Maria, I'm not saying we please answer your time is limited. Our pride are our patient with ANG. I'm not saying you are saying that that there is the sort of thing I
Oh, if you're young man, you should go and fight and you should gone die and you dont,
a right to you, no refuge or safety,
and only women and children do. I would never. I would never say such a thing or thank you understand he didn't say you said that I'm saying that, though, is the sort of attitude where oh well, you know
You know there
are there so many young men were why don't they just stay back and fight? I didn't say you said that the sum of the art, but the only reasonable, just to make it clear, Marilla I just have to clarify those Marin. The only reason why I raise the disparity between men and women is that it is a very common practice for working age. Men seeking better lives abroad, not asylum, but for economic reasons to go first and then bring their families after them. And that's all I'm asking you I'm not even disparaging that project at all. I'm just asking you if you are a conception of open
borders differentiates between seeking asylum and seeking a better life, economical, okay. So so let me say this and I think that if you are you- and it's your says that now there are equal numbers of women entering Europe
as there are men and I think part of the refugee flight? Is that often times
families will stay at refugee camps, while men try to reach safety and to see if the route is safe.
Now for their families to join them other times. Of course, entire families come so again. There are reasons behind that. I think
again also that Syria is not the only country where refugees are fleeing from. I think
if someone from IRAN, please because of the very nature of Sharia LAW, if your gay, if your woman, if you're just sent her, if you're freezing her that you wouldn't want to live there, many people, don't that you would want to flee. I think it is impossible to distinguish between those who come for economic reasons and political reasons, because if you look at the numbers coming, they are
coming from areas where there is either war, or also theocracies and movements like islamist movements, where there's a lot of restrictions on people's rights and lives, and therefore you know this dream of
you know, living somewhere, safer, better where you are free or is a dream we all have, and I think if anything, the migrant crisis and the flight a refugee shows is that, despite what cultural relativism say that actually people everywhere, you know want to live free and in it
since that's why they want to come to Europe. You know some people will say: well, why don't you just go to Saudi Arabia, while I sure, as Hell, don't wanna go to Saudi Arabia, and I think most people would want to go
from Syria into Saudi Arabia. They prefer to come here and there's obvious reasons for that. You now again, I'm not even clear what your view is here. I just wanna nail that down, so you don't want to distinguish between asylum seekers and people who are migrating for other reasons, economic or otherwise, because all of this is near together and that everyone is seeking a better life and they have a right to seek a better life in a global world where all world ass human beings, I
stand that but
Are you saying that
there is no limitation on the number of people that the Europe or America,
the west, in general, should accept into its borders. We should vet people for WAR Cry
times, but otherwise everyone
should be able to emigrate anywhere they want to,
well yeah. He has some. I do think that I mean I also think faith schools should be banned. I also think that you know a we need. Secular society is everywhere there, not not many governments, Don necessarily agree with me, and many people don't say, agree with me and that's fine, but these are the positions that I think are important to make. I think the fact of the matter is that you
people we live in a world. Now, it's a global world in his very, very small and people
four million different reasons. There are a lot of people moving out of Britain to Spain to other countries retiring there, in fact, until there,
recently more people were leaving Britain than actually entering it. This is the reality. What what I find, what you know? The fact that we never question
The right of someone born and raised in Britain to move to Spain. That's their right, but you know we could
sure why someone from IRAN would want to come to Britain, and I think you know that the fact of the matter
is especially with the reality of the inn.
At age and social media. The fact that now we are so close to each other
You know we feel the effects of Islamism here, as do young people,
full in. You know, Syria and IRAN. They want to live a free life and they have a right to an. I think whether they come for economic reasons, don't
Forget an you know better than anyone, people living in the? U S, no better than anyone that migrants, immigration is good for the economy. People want to work, they want to contribute and immigrants generally
look at statistics anywhere they bring in more than they take. Of course they also put pressure.
On schools, on libraries, on hospitals and that's not because necessarily that we are unable to cope with them about it.
Because very often governments put profit before human need and they're not willing to put money in school.
Rules and education and we're seeing that ourselves. You know in Britain, every
our hospitals are closing our libraries are closing. It's got nothing to do with the migrants is just the way very often the system works, and so
think actually in general, migrants are good for our societies, particularly if you look at a lot of european
societies- you know it's an aging population. We need young people to pay for our pensions and for our retirement funds and to fund our hospitals to stuff
our schools and so forth, ok, so forth.
It's a very positive thing. I wouldn't, I would agree with you, however, even also just make one further comment to is that you know that for those of us who worked in the refugee field, you
You know there are so many historical residences with the attitude towards migrants in historically. You know how it's for itself,
but perceived in the U S in in Europe, even the sort of anti jewish refugee problem
and at the time the fact that they were often accused him.
In January the fact that they were often said that you know the acute they can never integrate.
Into our societies. You know that's those sort of arguments, if you, if you ve, actually it you know when you work in the refugee field, and you look at the history, you see that each wave of immigration or flight is met with the same sort of prejudices, the same sort of accusations until a new set comes and then its it focuses on the new set of people. You not, I think, even for example, you know
sale while they dont speak English. Will, if you look at the immigration experience, you see that the first generations nursery dont speak as well. The second general
shit you know are that they act as a go between between the first generation society and then you go, but third generation perfectly integrated up. I think,
we need to look at it in that way, but also to realise that we live in another world. Now there is mass exodus is because of various reasons. That again, that's not forget. Also, some of our governments have a responsibility
in creating. If you look at the situation in Syria, you ve got friends,
the iranian regime involved there you ve, got the Russians involved that the turkish government is involved, that you ve got the: U S, government british government they are.
Involved in various ways and therefore you know there is also a some level of
comparability there to none the less I'm looking at it just from a human perspective. You know from me I think you know,
if we can feed everyone, we should do it. If we protect people who need refuge, we should do it. Why not? What what is wrong with demanding open borders? Why is it seemed to me
such a despicable demand or no it not such a fundamentally human demand are announcing, are saying that I'm not saying you are saying that, but you know I have EDA people deputy leader
Peter. You know saying that I am promoting a rape culture because I am defending open borders.
The lesson is: does that our own again, and so ok, but there's predators propaganda on both sides over the beginning, this conversation- you always reminding us of that without can. This is the kind of thing I'm trying
to rectify and talking with you- and I and I dont know, there's gonna be successful, but at the beach
This conversation, you said something about any talk,
defending ones culture and worry that your culture could be destroyed by immigration. Mass immigration open borders, which is, in fact the worry of someone like Douglas Murray. The fat is tantamount to big
tree or or energizes bigotry, and
I think that is a needlessly polarizing and in fact inaccurate thing to say, and it is
There aren't bigots who speak in those terms but
seems to me to be totally reasonable. To worry what would happen if you just opened the borders, and you have to be willing to talk about right, so
but just say a few things about my concerns and you can react and if you detect any bigotry here, please pointed out
I agree with you. We are trying to build a global civil society and we have to get beyond nationalism.
We certainly have to get beyond xenophobia and we
the species, are struggling to do that right end their their political ass.
Extra there's this an economic aspect. To this end, we have a lot to work out, but
the reality of the situation is that merely
opening the borders right given the
of travel and given how to
terrible life is in various parts of the world. I would expect that if you can
open the borders if we, if we put you in charge here and we
let everyone go where
ever they wanted to go to
these would reach some kind of equilibrium with risks
to all of the variables that determine the quality of life in that society, which is to say that people
only stop coming to Europe or America.
Once there was no longer a good reason to come right only once a Europe, for instance, was no better placed
live in the Middle EAST or North Africa. That, I think, would be the practical consequence of a true open borders policy, and that is something that ten
Five, someone like Douglas Murray and fought for understandable reasons, and when you look at the specifics when you and again I am not arguing that huge
disparities in wealth and political freedom are a good thing, but
to merely import vast multitudes of people who die,
I share the values of the West right and are now
inclined to adopt those values and am not talk.
But everyone. Obviously there are. You know there are people who, as you say, are fleeing theocracy, who are
closeted, secularists or atheist or feminist, who are aspiring scientists who are intellectuals to her desperate to get the places
Oxford and Cambridge right, I'm not talking about
people, and I think those are the most important people in the world to support whether there
in from IRAN or Eritrea or anywhere else or Syria, obviously, but does
at this point that he made on my part. Gas is a point that I can't see how you can just disparage as synonymous with bigotry is that we know that if we just open the borders
and let millions upon millions of people coming to Europe from countries
Syria and Iraq and IRAN and William Muslim Majority countries where you will be importing vast numbers of people.
Oh, don't share western values. You are you ill
importing vast numbers of Islamists. First of all and can see other
conservative Muslims and given that the and
Problems of assimilation, thus far in Europe is hard.
To see how that simply makes Europe better and
a lot worse- and I am now going to give you a chance to react to this by. I just want to finally make a point about your personal perspective as an Ex muslim
I don't see how you can paint such a rosy picture of this, because you as an Ex Muslim, have escaped theocracy,
You are someone who has struggled to escape the social
attitudes and even threats from muslim men in these communities, and
You seem to be saying that as a sign of bigotry not to one
to absorb and unlimited number of these people, even muslim men and even muslim men who could be guaranteed to harbour the vet.
Beliefs and attitudes that you,
I've been trying to fight against you have personally escaped. That seems to be a bit
a paradox to me, please react on yeah, it's not at all.
Talks. I mean there's so much here. I really don't know where to start, but let me check:
to go point by point I mean I think for me. It's because I can see people I dont see collectives,
I think that's where we disagree with Douglas Murray with yourselves. I dont see a collective. So for me I don't see you know,
Muslim men are all these migrants bringing in some sort of culture
that is inhuman and miss such an honest because ice don't see culture as being static, I dont see it as being homogeneous. I see
Oh no, not everyone in a society. Even if it is then was the majority country have the same values the same culture there,
not everyone knows percentages is just percentages, we're talking about whatever percentages. You know whatever
so is so is on the summit. So you talk about it. I don't have a rosy picture, because I I did judge people based on you know what they
you as individuals.
For me, a dozen frightened me that there are muslim men coming in because
those muslim men may also be greatly defenders, a women's rights. You know
they're not because for me, being Muslim does not automatically mean being. Some is just like
being a white male does not necessarily make someone, but I must say that those, but don't you know, they'll, be a percentage of Finnish SAM, please if I can just finished there so much. You said that I'd really like to answer you know. The thing is, I think, with the sort of perspective the Douglas Murray promotes witches.
Of you know our culture and they're gonna bring their culture in. I dont subscribe to this whole clash of civilizations thesis, and I I think you know that
quality of the matter is, is there is no arson them there? Are you? No fear of crafts, and misfortune is a bridge
born in european born or American, born
There are atheists and sectors and free thinkers who are iranian, born or Syrian born, and you know. Therefore, I don't subscribe to this view that if you know, if you have Muslims coming in and and I put Muslims and
quotes because they are not necessarily Muslims or they might be.
Muslim in name only they might be there.
There are a million ways. We can define people and not just
You know, and also the fact that values is not. You know, they're, not. Everybody has necessarily sharia values or islamist values. A lot of people in IRAN, for example, defend western, so called what
John Values, universal. That's what I call universal values. You know, if you look at it movement did.
Unveiling in IRAN to be unveiled because its compulsory could end up in prison for two months.
But there is a huge movement of women taking off their veils,
as a sign of protest to the compulsory veiling balls you have women carrying
body of fact. One day who was killed
when a more law accused. Her of you know tat
the poor on, even though it is against islamic Customs, her family agreed with them to carry the coffin and when we,
of the mullahs in the area came to pay his respects after he had said that fact that deserve to be killed. They circled her body and said that he is not allowed to come to her funeral. They kicked one of the most
well known, more less out of her funeral, so there is no US and them there are free thinkers and women's rights campaigners in the smallest villages of IRAN and Afghanistan, and there are bigots Anthea cracks in the biggest cities of America and and Britain, and my point is that when you say your defending your culture against this alien savage barbarian culture, there is some bigotry there, because it fails to see the humanity of people it places collected
blame and equip them with the theocracies and the oppressive forces that their fleeting for an area important can I just finished. Sorry, there are men,
many many people who are languishing in prison who are being arrested by morality, police, who are you know, facing a threats and intimidation not just great
heroes like rife, Badawi or of Egypt Roy who was hacked to death, among others, just ordinary people pushing back their veil
is challenging the morality police. You know quest
shining religion and dogma on Facebook, ordinary people or
ordinary people. Many of them are part of those migrants. Many of them are considered them.
Muslim majority and they're not or even if they are more them, they're, not Islamists, and- and that's why I think
You know, you know what I find ironic running. Let me tell you this would have
and ironic is that a lot of people will criticise identity pilot
Ex ante criticise multiculturalism and the fact that you know things are Dubai.
It into various cultures, but you find that the far right and also people like Douglas Maria who's, not on the far right, in my opinion, use a sort of white identity.
He politics, defending my our Europe are our values, our culture against the other, the brown men, the savages you know, and I
subscribed to that. You know you mentioned, for example, marks die nor you know before in your discussion with Douglas,
all right, you know and this concept of demography as destiny. You know, because you do mentioned some or what happens when
so many Muslims in Europe or in America and Keen and Monica
this brilliant criticism of marks time where he says well, if demography is destiny, while than ever
and should become an Islamic, a theocracy like IRAN, because any wrong the demographics in the muslim population has decreased since and islamic regime was established, you know, so it is sort of reducing things.
Sue, you know Muslims were says. You know Europeans, enlightenment, values, kinematics as something else, that's brilliant. He says you know. Enlightened and values is not stitched into the dna of every single person who lives in Europe on its
just the same as Sharia is not stitched into the dna of every person who is coming from the Middle EAST or North Africa or South Asia, and for me I think I gain strength and courage from the fact that you know
see so many allies amongst Muslims, and that's why? I don't feel that, because I am an Ex Muslim, you know I should be afraid of,
Muslims. Many of them are my eyes. They are my friends day have stood with me.
And they will stand with me and you know- and I think it is a mistake if we buy into clash of civilizations, we fail to see the many friends we have who are deemed other and we think that people on the far right because they look like us- are our friends when actually they are very
similar to the theocratic that many Muslims and Ex Muslims are fiacre. But yes, I do not doubt for a minute that there are millions and millions of people in muslim majority countries, but look at your profile,
then it's ok for Douglas Murray to say our culture.
Listen, you- and I am not now- no hurry Douglas, doesn't even doubt what I am about to say. I know Douglas
tiring champion of Ion Hersey Ali. That's how we first met its in defending ex Muslims that we first bonded
right- and I have no doubt that there are millions and millions of
Henshaw Maria limousines and I on her sallies or
actual ones in hiding in out of necessity in muslim majority countries, and I've said over and over again that these are the most important people to support and there's not in hiding does sound Bognor, not all in hiding it'll. Do it's not important, in my opinion, spoke on your fight. Why doesn't apply here? Yeah she's in
You'd more than three hundred or taking some of them are taken huge risks. It does not. Yet how question yes are not all in hiding right came up the still this Douglas point
stands here and have yet to hear you answer it and if it does come down, have I have answered it. Please tell us language, no, no! Let me you haven't hurt. I can assure you that when hundreds of thousands of people listen to this conversation, they will say that you have not yet answered it. Ok, so that's why? If you wanna, if you want those who will listen to you, if you want a chance to answer it, let me ask the question again: lilies some I've just explain that I dont subscribe to
hush of civilization- I understand that it is time that another is married as ok. Now you are defending the I'm, not know as simple as that, I'm asking you to answer the specific question that SAM I'm sorry, you cannot say that you support Douglas Mores concern for our culture.
White European College not wide european culture and values. The very values is the very values that you support, of secularism and tolerance and democracy and human rights. The dots and, on the other hand, say that those who are coming from Muslim majority countries- I shall be afraid,
of them as an Ex muslim. What I'm saying no to a contradictory positions which you
Putting there is. There is no contradiction here. You know what I'm saying there is no. The contradiction is this: ok at worthy
question you have not answered. Is this and it comes down to per cent
judges and you're. Saying that you see people as individuals is not an answer to this question. I see people as individuals to. I know that their
individuals on every point of the spectrum of belief and unbelief and the muslim world, but here
the reality of the situation. If you bring
Germany from the Middle EAST. Some percentage of them will be
some percentage of them will be Islamists
percentage will be conservative Muslims? Let us talk about conservative Muslims who are not inclined to assimilate now. My quest
can t you is. Does
matter at all. What percentage that is is? Is there a difference
between living in a society where five per cent of the population is conservative, Muslims and fifty percent or seventy five percent. Is that a difference
that someone like Douglas is justified in caring about look, I mean a semi. I dont think doubtless Murray is justified and he thing
I am not justified we're having a discussion about our opinions right. The fact of the matter for me is that, even if someone is a conservative Muslim, it does not make them a jihadi or an Islamist. You can have people who are anti
abortion who dont go on bomb abortion clinics. You can have p
will you please change conservative Muslim to Islamist ok, just
wipe in that now and is there and tell me if it up ass the programme on it, then I'm re asking the question of those words. There there's a spectrum here, as it were, using his worst slightly differently. I want to connect with your definitions. You are concerned about Islamist. It would seem
to be rational for you to be concerned about what the percentage of Islamists actually is in any group of immigrants,
are you concerned about that these limits they might be British born them
the American born they might be white, they might be brown, they might be block
concern are Islamists and I think that if you want to target Islamism target Islamists target the jihadi,
target the saudi regime. The iranian regime target those islamic
gonna positions that are normalizing and promoting Islamism. Don't target people just because of their beliefs
the simple as possible is a limousine as a set of beliefs, Maria and, if you are in the process of varying immigrant, a political movement yeah because you can. This is the example I was giving you can't be. You can have it
Neighbor who is Anti gay and thinks that gay people are perversions, is very different from
being part of a movement that once K people dead, there's a difference
difference of degree? Yes, it's a very big difference, because it's one of difference between action unbelief there is so it's a difference between inciting even here,
trade or hate, hating, someone or actually inciting violence. These are very different,
ill at a spectrum and people are extra- must force if its own. So my question to you is leaves you found someone was. It is LE missed in the process of vat in them as a migrant? Would you want
in or out as an Islamist, they haven't heard anybody there, not a war criminal, but there clearly and Islamist what little
and drew her ears. Then it you can. If you want to fight a political movement, you have to fight it politically. You cannot fight a political movement by banning it by deporting people who subscribe to that movement. You have to
and it is the same with the far right in let's say in America, the tea party tromp, you can't stop him by the bye make by silencing him,
You can't stop him by deporting him to Britain or one other
country that likes him. You can send him to ISIS.
That they'll get along you ve got to challenges, ideas. You ve got a fight him when this argument is reduced to a question of migrant migrations.
As one citizenship status. What sort of papers one has? What sort of color one is? What sort of
beliefs, they have generally just because they happened to unfortunately have been born in some
no to muslim parents, because that is the only reason why people are considered Muslim is because they were born to muslim parents.
Then you are not dealing with the real issue, which is Islamism, which is the far right, and it's not just the islamist. Far right. It is the religious far right in general, which I think the idea
Piggy Da Tommy Robinson also belong to
so for me, but again there not killing homosexuals enemy, Latin Charlie, it's! But if you want to keep your did that stations that you find so important in a muslim context stable, you have to admit that
Edi Alice far right as they are, are not
killing homosexuals or committing
honor violence against women right say that huge differences found that is
very very low bar and I'm sorry, my bar is a lot higher. There are Islamists who do not hesitate, be that is the bar. You used to distinguish conservative Muslims from those among us who are considered soft islamist. They are considered moderates,
I'm sorry. I sign up other heads of decapitation heads to decide whether a movement is bad for humanity or it's good for it. For me, I think if you know it
Ed PIG Eda is only burning down a few asylums as centres. Well, you know they haven't decapitated, anyone, while I'm sorry
burning down. Refugee shelters is not good for me either. I dont have such a low bar on far right. I dont decide. One is better.
Because they have managed to decapitate anyone. Based on that logic, we should like the euro.
In regime, because they only hang their apostates, they don T cap. It is the law,
you just used, and it was good enough in the context of differentiating conservative Muslims from Islamists from jihadis. I problem is the far right: the five
the religious, far right for me, islamism- and you know you ve- got Braywick For-
sample in Norway, who killed all those young people
you know. I think, if some religion
No, you ve got the Hindu right in India. They are responsible for the massacre of Muslims in the garage. You have the Buddhist right, killing most
in Sri Lanka, Myanmar, these movements, yes they're, not as bad as these limits. I agree there not as bad because they don't have several states. They dont have thirteen states that punishes,
well apostates by death. They dont have Sharia LAW everywhere, but don't forget many of our countries
didn't have Sharia law forty years ago either. But this is a political movement, first and foremost with open borders. You have no concern that your wind up will know SAM. I don't I dont have concerned because I think you know what I see: people coming in people who need protection, people who need safety, women, men, children who are fleeing the most outrageous. You know
of violations of rights. Today, whether the Assad regime or the were ISIS, we talk about ISIS being fashion
day in and day out, we talk about how barbaric they are they have issued fought was against refugees saying that refugees who Lee
these slavic state are all call size, how dare they leave and Islam were taken and on the other hand we are not just talking about those able and they also ISIS but can have a bulgarian.
And I realize now we're out of time and out of patience, but I just want to be
a clear were not just talking about those people were talking about. Truly,
and borders to? Let me say something found you know. Let me just say this: I say treat people as individuals if they have committed a crime if they rape, a woman and calm, prosecute them to the full extent it doesn't matter if they are White brown, yellow green. If they are muslim, christian, atheist
prosecute them to the full extent of the law if they are Islam. Is that want to impose Sharia law if they want to blow up innocent people or even people who are not innocent, prosecute them too great great great,
and these are not target just stay there to say their way way way way memory. You can't prosecute people for Islamism, but you just said that you can't deport Donald
right, you have to fight ideas, would ideally deployed prosecute if they have committed a crime. You prosecuted
Ok, but you can't prosecute Israel mines. German stem challenge them challenge. What do you do at the border? With initial knowledge ideas, you challenge
should Islamists be free to immigrate wherever they want to in Europe. Look
The thing is that when you, when you agree on fundamental human rights, you'd rights are for people. You hate you despise if you are against torture,
you are against the torture of some lovely left wing? Communist person like myself and you are against the torture of some despicable islamist jihadi in Guantanamo. If you agree that torture is wrong,
in the same way the right to asylum. If the person is conservative, if they are not secular, if they are Anti gaze, if they are unto women the very fast
need refugee protection by half sir, but were not just talking about asylum, we're talking about it, drags mere migration, so innovation,
ever so is honest. I wouldn't worry. Let trust me. The borders are so closed, though there is such a fortress up there that for every one person that enters there are hundreds of thousands who are not able to. I wouldn't be so concerned. What I would say is that for every person that comes in, who is a g hardy who should be prosecuted for crimes against humanity, there are hundreds of thousands
the people who just want to live in a society where they can leave. We agree that Islamist em and theocracy is so vile. You know a little compassion for people fleeing. It is the least that one
expect, especially adding that marine birds of prey the color religion. All the time, but Miranda again this this leaves out the crucial truth, which is again you your castigating, someone like Douglas FIR, focusing on. I have no problem with Douglas Marie. I am talking about his politics, I'm sure he's a lovely person every time,
I met him, he's been nothing but charming. But my point is: I'm not talking about an individual, I'm talking about a certain type of politics that sees this as a clash of civilizations
I see so many allies amongst those who are true
to enter Europe, who are Muslims who are migrants
and I know that many of them are fleeing because they want to breathe free. Many of them have taken risks. Many
them just wanna live twenty first century lives which is impossible under an islamic theocracy, ice fuel
nothing but solidarity with those people. I just have one final question for you: what what percentage
of the muslim community. Anything I don't know you don't know of etiquette, can you guess, and they were talking about five percent or ninety five percent, some
I don't know look the thing is look because it you know. Many look. Don't forget that if you like
cut pictures of IRAN or Afghanistan thirty years ago you wouldn't recognize it today. You know that you're so do the UK. So this is not because of people's culture, its because Islamism,
has just come and bull dozed over those societies and impose the Nikobob imposed the veil
Impose Sharia LAW, for you see
have no concern of that happening in London. No, I dont have cancer. How many times I must tell you,
concerned about the Islamist I'm not concerned about people, I'm not concerned about.
I am concerned about the Islam, but you're not concerned about the Islamists in London, but what I am concerned about it
climate in IRAN in in the saudi government, as well as on the streets of London, I'm servant with it all. I see it as a global political movement that is killing and full train people and most of the people for their killing
people in the Middle EAST and North Africa, South Asia, they are
during a neuron, they have slaughtered an entire generation, Yasser Arafat's countless people buried and mass graves. I am concerned about this
let's make it. But what is it? But we are not so frustrating. Is that you're not acknowledging how open borders interacts unhelpfully with that concern, as I don't equate people Muslims, migrants with instruments in the same way that every white male I see is not a NEO nazi fascist to me, I'm like that. I make those distinctions between people, individuals and political movements, and that is the fundamental basis of my politics, human rights for everyone, including people
I don't agree with, but you know artist. I agree with those two with unequivocally far right: fascist movements, whether they are fascist that we like, because they criticise, is-
when a slimmer, some or fascists and under people odor regressive, left, who, like Islamist and will side with them. I am against all fascist all types of fascist. They don't necessarily have to have decapitated anyone for me not to like them and to oppose them. And from me I defend people, you can be muslim, atheist, Bron, yellow black. You have rights, whether I like your opinions or not. If you have committed a crime,
if you have raped if you are going to commit a terrorist atrocity? How do I oppose you? I oppose you, but you fight that movement politically, because it's a political movement, not fight scapegoating, not by profiling, not by basing collective blame on masses of people
many of them who are residing this moves. You're saying you cannot fight it politically by maintaining your borders. That is
an illegitimate tool
to use in the political fight against the spread of Islamism, fan look
The borders are defended when you weren't they like that. Do you not think they should big ass? One trying to understand in your position is in that's not true and explain that
a million times you now. The fact that I say borders should be open doesn't mean that you know a tanks of joy
This can just rolling and you ve got a stand there and twiddle your thumbs while they roll in talking about old, Hanks or understand what I'm just saying, I'm just giving an example. I'm seeing open borders for people that doesn't mean there's a bedding process that doesn't
mean. What do you do when you discover their islamists about his question? He several different way prosecute. You can't brought you can't prosecute someone for their beliefs, you're the first to make that point. You hit you
and prosecuting Islamist for Islamism. Now you can prosecute and islamist. If they are
imposing Sharia law. If I'm talking about someone who's emigrating nurse attempting to immigrate into Europe from one of these muslim majority societies and the challenge them, you fight them politically, that's what I do also bring them. Okay, let s get Goin
But this is what this is all this is. This is a needlessly confusing point, but I again, I still don't understand your position here. I am. I promise you. This is the last question, but I've asked several different ways: you must still bring them into Europe and then wait to prosecute them right.
Or find some basis to prosecute them, look, I didn't say, bring them, and yet this is the question: when away
People are against the coming in of migrants and refugees. They'll say that these are all bogus and
They want genuine refugees, while the only way you can determine genuine refugees are a refugee is someone by definition legally who has left.
Their home country and who has come to either bordering country or a country of third asylum to apply
for refugee status, so they have already left their country. They can. Therefore,
There is no determine.
Sean on whether they are genuine or bogus by the very fact that they have fled where
determination is made is once they have arrived. Then there is asylum procedures, whether it's in the? U S or Britain, or there is refugee processing in a country like Turkey, by the EU and High Commissioner for refugees, so refugees flee. They come they register, they are interviewed, they are vetted, they are process that has been the way it has worked for decades. That,
how you determine who is a refugee and who isn't when you I've it, the people can't even enter into a border. Your concern is really not bogus versus genuine roughly,
did you just don't want people to come? You have to let people to people enter
a. What are you in Orange then be what you do once you.
Let them as Islamists. Well, you better
in the? U S. For example, if you are known to have committed a war crime, if you have, though they have committed a war crime, they have a belief system that they articulate, which, as you have a belief system that has not violated anyone's rights. That has not been involved with killing civilians. What they want to live under Sharia law. Ok, it will listen. You know lots of people believe in lots of ridiculous thing.
And they can be very reasonable to some.
In some areas- have very ridiculous, but assertions on
things. A lot of people think I'm completely ridiculous. That's part of the fact that we do all think the same. It's very normal that we don't. I think we cannot determine who has rights.
Based on whether we like them or whether we agree on them. People have rights, even if we don't like them, even if we disagree with them, even if we find their views vehement and that's the difference. What do you know if no crime has
in committed you're, going to have to in the same way that in Britain we have people who are conservative, who think that you know? Who are your christian? Who think the gay people are?
Europeans who are opposed to gay marriage who are opposed to abortion,
yes in a woman's right to choose, you know I can say that you know you can't access health care, because I don't like the fact that you were christian. You know fundamentalist, because that's the right, the right to health,
the right to food, the right to education, the right to shelter and the right to asylum. The fact that the right to asylum is not recognised as a basic human right by many people doesn't mean that it isn't one and the fact
There are so many people who are demanding it who need it. You know ass an end. It is a recognised right act
Lee. If you look at it, but again, values now you're talking about a more narrow condition of asylum seekers, as opposed as on our own, because it's based its political opinion, race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group. This is a very, very large category, and I would argue that anyone fleeing from a place like IRAN, a place from Syria,
if you look at in a ninety one percent of the refugees in the world are coming from the top ten refugee producing countries. They are real reasons why they are fleeing nodes.
We cannot, on the one hand, you know, be an advocate against democracy and Islamism and talk
how bad it all is, and then, on the other hand, then say
You know. Well, the people who are fleeing it don't deserve to have a better life and a different type of your
and protect the problem, as many of them are not, as we know, based on failures of assimilation thus far for several generations and as we know, they are not fleeing those values, not sure that it's not shoe. Muslims in this country were not
even labelled muslim several decades ago, they were called Asians. They were very much at the forefront of left wing, organizing around trade unions and anti racist word. What happened in the past few decades as a result of multicultural
some entire communities and societies have been marked with only one eyed entity, and that is most lamb, and we have also seen the rise of the islamist movement, which has helped in doing that because it fails to represent almost limbs unless they forget that: U S, foreign policy, for example, during the cold war it was
sort of U S, foreign policy, to create a green belt and islamic belt around this, the union at the time the majority in the Taliban, there is a history of supporting the and
arming the Islamists when they were not even mainstream and now suddenly has become our culture. They were not even part of our culture,
they were in, they were in the periphery. If you look
at the iranian revolution. It was a left, leaning revolution, the great powers, including
the? U s they met in Guadeloupe, it was called the Guadeloupe conference. They decided that they prefer an islamic state there, because it was it fit. These strategy, during the
war and now suddenly, thirty years on his become our culture, you no wait for another thirty years and ISIS will be people's culture and Syria, because that's what happens when the oppressor rights his?
free. They will determine what you know, people think and help people think and the resistance will completely b,
ignored or annihilated. That is the reality of the histories of many of our countries. You know thirty, forty years ago
nobody warts black shadow in IRAN, the Borg I was on. No one had seen. You know these black sort of nickel jobs in
countries and Molly a lot of these dress
does have now of you know this sort of nickels and broker have overtaken the national dress. They say this is the slamic custom. This is the local dress. It's not it's taken over from people's local dresses, the shalwar kameez the
very colorful sort of a boost that women and Molly, for example, where it's completely annihilated that taken that over give it ten twenty or suddenly become our culture. You know, but Douglas more
is concerned about. You know us coming in overtaking that you know
european culture, whereas in fact you know what what that sort of a perspective fails to see is that this is a political will.
When it has bulldozed over our societies. The reason we are fleeing is because
We have no options to flee that there is very little choice is involved, and that is not necessarily people fleeing. Are people who agree with this
says there and also you know if you look at what I think is a sooner me of eight them and the Middle EAST and North Africa. It is a backlash. There is a huge backlash against Islam.
Whether it be unveiling movement in IRAN, whether it is the young people in, for example,
Morocco and Tunisia defying fasting rules and going and having a picnic during Ramadan when they can be prosecuted and they are beaten by the police and jailed for doing so. There is a huge backlashes well, and many of those people are part of that backlash too, and that's why I say: target the political movement target, the Christian right they slow me cried the Buddhist right, the Hindu right.
Don't I get Hindus, Christians, Muslims, but is okay? Well I'll, have to let that stand. I'm not sure we understand one another better but dumb. I thank you for attempt in it and dumb
makes you wonder more relaxed circumstances at some other point.
I am very I'm really grateful that we have this conversation I feel very relaxed actually summer. I think it's an important discussion to have. I think when we you know it's. The reality is that even very reasonable people will do
agree. I think this is a saying someone, someone brilliant has said I dont know who it is, but that it is often possible for reasonable people to disappear,
That is true. I was afraid of the beginning of this conversation and I remain worried that you
think we disagree far more than we do and that there is just a fair amount of confusion still in the air, but I will let our listeners sorted out. Ok, thank you.
You too, the listeners for trudging along fine laser, where can people find out more about you online? Give us your twitter handle in a cell if they go on to w double
W Merriam, the mossy dot com, that's my website and also Twitter is admire, him noisy and, of course, their summit.
Campaigns. I work on, like the Council of Ex Muslims of Britain, which is founded to break the taboo, that
with leaving Islam or the one overall campaign against Sharia LAW in Britain. I, for example, have
started a campaign called Fetnah because some you know
Islam is think we are. Women are the source of fitness. Chaos in society were calling ourselves that, and we say basically that we are Islamism worst nightmare. I've also
on things like nude protest Mina, because the Islamists
hate us. So much they want us,
covered and you know, disappeared basically from the public space. Nude protest,
be seen as a form of challenge to this sort of you know very miss generous view of women, so there's lots of different things up that, maybe if we
stuck on this profiling in immigration issue could have talked about, but I do think profiling and immigration are hugely important, particularly amongst atheists,
this conversation we need to have a lot of so thank you for giving me the opportunity to do that.
We're coming on and my best to your friend DIA, who am, I believe, as filming you during this conversation until
next. I marian thanks for your time. Ok, I want you
I'll do a postmortem on that,
I could not shake the fact that there was an impressive talking past one another there that I could never
quite seem to correct. For no doubt some of the fault is mine
should all know that some of the fathers is also Skype. There's a delay.
Skype, and when you try to interrupt somebody, the delay
those attempted intrusions seem far more hostile or urgent, this is an imperfect technology, but damn
All I can say is I tried.
Now I'm gonna go do something else, perhaps a nude protein,
if you find this punk asthma
people. There are many ways you can support it.
You can review it on Itunes or sticker. Whoever happens to listen to it. You can share.
And on social media with your friends you can buy.
About her, discuss it on your own podcast or even supported directly, and you can do this.
Subscribing through my website at SAM Harris, DOT, org and there
fine subscriber only content, which includes my
Ask me anything episodes. He also get acts
to advance tickets. To my live events as well streaming. Video of some of these events
and he also get to hear the bonus questions from many of these interviews. All of these
Transcript generated on 2020-03-24.