The making sense podcast SAM Harris just a note to say that if your hearing this year currently honour subscriber feet We here in the first part of this conversation in order to access full episodes of making sense, podcast you'll need to subscribe sand harris downward there you'll find or private rss feed to add to your favorite pot catcher, along with other. subscriber only content. We don't run ads on the podcast and therefore it's made possible entirely through the support of our subscribers. So if you enjoy what we're doing here. Please consider becoming one too Speaking with Ruth roberts, russia's the press, and of shalom college in Jerusalem and a research. at the hoover institution at Stanford here

The the award winning weekly podcast econ talk, which I recommend and his There are five books including how Adam smith can change your life and most recent Wild problems, a guide to the decisions that define us- and that is the topic of today's conversation. We discuss the shortcomings of economics- is a science. the power of books, the difference between wild and tame problems, Darwin's embarrassing attempt to read may decide whether to get married. The utility of techniques like decision analysis in commensurate goods, free riding counterfactual, how the decisions we make changes. How bad we are predicting future experience, changing moral norms, effect of altruism free speech weather.

are in fact making moral progress. social media truth versus comfort problems with consequential ism, freewill meditation and others. X, and where will enjoy this one? I hope you do as well, and I bring you us roberts, I am here with Ruth roberts rust thanks for joining me great to be with. You I've been looking forward to this. I, u am you are in a truly oji pot, ass for you. You got into the game earlier. I did I, if a great podcast he can talk, and you have a wonderful new book, wild problems, a guide to the decisions that define us which I as a great audio books too. I think I consumed at all as audio honour on a few long walks and its especially good for that is really em

you were great company for those hours. So thank you for what you're doing, and perhaps you can I summer eyes, you're you're intellectual and an academic background to your your bring into those projects also thanks. Thanks for the kind words about broadcasts. and the book. I should warn my podcast ministers at the audio book is not read by may yet that which they have complained about, but in a friendly way. I was disappointed by actually is still good. So it's thing. I am glad to hear my my journey is a little bit off the beaten track, but I think the more you talk to people, the more you find out that there is no beaten track. When I started off as an academic economists train did the universe you Chicago taught at rochester stanford, you silly wash university in saint louis in george mason work for a number of think tank schooling. for institution that I'm still affiliated with

but somewhere in there. I got interested in communicating economics to general audience. So I wrote a few novels. The teacher economics wrote a couple rap videos sort upon cast road animated palm and strangely enough about it half ago I got ass to be the president of a college in jerusalem shall m college Israel's only liberal arts college, with the core curriculum and philosophy, history, great tip, great books, great texts and I decide to move to Israel and a b reasonable college, so it is an unusual journeying- I used to be really said the economics of so little interested in her, but part of the reason on them. the college as a gala, more interested velocity, the life well lived near and education are generally, which is quite a heart, hard thing to work to do well, it turns out did you have a deep connection, Israel already had you spent

a lot of time there or was this truly a blind adventure, I'm jewish I've been to Israel, I dunno before I moved probably a dozen times may be more I've always loved. Visiting, never plan I live here- was not a life for some juice. It's a dream to moved Israel and become a citizen our plan, but we anyway one when this opportunity came along the presidential, I'm college, did you have any hebrew at that point. Little bit little bit cuts I have a little bit more. My wife is semi fluent mecca, social way I'm embarrassing, but try to get better everyday nurse. My college, oliver courses, almost everyone, stun in hebrew, so that save and I'd like to on save the plato and aristotle class or homer shakespeare. I would

that much out of. Unfortunately, maybe next year will sooner so before we jump into the book, which raises a lot of topics that an accord my interests. You just said things about europe, perhaps waning interests in economics and the difficulty of charging a path through education that retrospectively makes a ton of sense. Perhaps you can give me some your thoughts on the the limits of economics as a discipline. I think many of us who are lay consumers of its products tend to marvel at how, unlike a science, it often seems to be an you don't tell anybody, gimme the kitchen convent, your version of economics, but perhaps also you can say something about how you view the enterprise of of education at this point in its challenges, so economics,

is very mathematical, as it's taught at the graduate level, and it's taught as if it were a science. It's the science of human behavior and in in graduate economics and in undergraduate economics. I think that's the wrong word. It certainly is say, form a way of thinking about him behaviour and the essence of that form. A way of thinking is maximization we're trying to the most out of our money or our time take one of the misconceptions people, about economics, as they assume it's only about the stock market or gdp or an apply manner interest rates. It is, many other things it is about how we spend our time. It is about the power, of leisure, and it's about the fact that if I choose one thing I can't there's something else who in many ways economics is the study of choice, choice under constraints that on Heaven, the amount of money and on have an infinite amount of time, and, in particular, its economists are interested

both individual choices and then how choices abrogating? What are called markets too funny word, because we think of a market is like a farmer's mark, or stock market. But when economist talk about markets, they mean the complex dance between buyers and sellers in, say, housing or restaurants, and the prices that emerged from that process and understanding those things and thinking about them thoughtfully in is a tremendous craft, and it's very valuable and it's very useful. But economists, some our kind of imperialist one of my professors, george stickler said There is only one social science and we are its practitioners, not the most humble view on big vantage george, but is very funny. Man, rare and our profession. but what he meant by that was the social sciences. Don't really have any models, they're just sort of they have some theories but they're, not rigorous or as economists they can predict they can do the they can do anthropology. They can do psychology and

I was trained that way and it's a powerful tool kit offer thinking about human behavior, but it has shortcomings are many things. It's not. We're good at looking at and as I've gotten older. I've started to think that those things that it's not very good at looking at are the things that most of us care the most about our sense of belonging that the tribes were in the kin folk. We have the sense of dignity that we crave the feeling that we matter that were important. The people pay attention to us. These are the things that, with respect these are the things that we care about. These are the things that bring deep satisfaction, not just tat. es or fonder pleasure. I want economist talks about pleasure. They mean everything they mean the ice cream com. They mean a good job well done, they mean great vacation problem. Is that calculus of adding a pleasures and taking away pains, which is a fundamental utilities,

calculus, I think, has limitations when applied to the things I was talking about earlier. Family love, belonging transcendence, the things that that we care about deeply. I don't think the tools of maximization fit very well and there. I think we need other tools, other ways of thinking about it, so as older. I got less interested and sort of not sort of less interested in what economists tools tell us and more interested in the parts of the world and our lives. That economics has less to say about. I discovered Adam smith other book, the theory of moral sentiments, which is a book about ethical behave here. The life well lived. Why we do decent things one another rather than merely be selfish, grasping he says in there that the press, of money and well to support game and will tarnish your soul, so those kinds of more philosophical, hots hearts became more interesting to me. The other thing that I think

its related, which I think your hinting out when you asked about education, is the most education is practised in the unites aids and around the world is some. The passing on of information and knowledge and we live in a world where we have tremendous access to information and knowledge of via wikipedia via you, tube, be upon cas, and what I think education should be about is the kindling of the fire. That is the human mind that saw Plutarch line laden in english. The the mind is, a vessel to be filled, but a fire to be kindled, but it must engage in round the world pies school college and even sometimes sign graduate school there's a lot of filling of vessels and not a much, not much kindling of fire and I've got an interested in the question of how do you allow some

to explore a great text for it, a great book on your own. When you read in the company of other people and with a great teacher to guide you, your changed your transformed when it's done correctly and that process, which is sadly missing in most undergraduate education, I think you're on the world is the young is magic and when you have experienced it most of us never did as an undergraduate. But when you do experience it, I not just sharing ideas with other people. It sharing ideas in a thoughtful way under the guide, the silver of another great mind, the the teacher, and that is giving a superpower superpowers of Hata reed how to think how to talk with other people.

Well, respectfully, I think it's the essence of of what I think of as real education is what we try to do here. Ritual am college, we don't always succeed, but that's the gold standard and he and I often think about reading a great book as a conversation, even though it's it is in one direction. If you, as you point out, if you're having a larger conversation with a great teacher and your own colleagues about the book, it definitely enriches experience but the other than the wonderful thing about books, and we have some very smart.

And, in many cases, wise person's side of a conversation that they have taken in many cases years to prepare so we're getting the best of their thoughts and we're getting them across the centuries. It's really amazing what an amazing technology a book is how strange, though, that, even though it's one sided when you read it ten years later, the second time they're, saying something to dampier a really great book is a conversation that sense and I agnes callard. The philosopher's salt said to me when I had her on a contact. She said no great teaching is teaching and how to talk to dead people, and that saw that's the magic of of of a book it's extraordinary and there are lots of really talented.

If the people were talking to yeah yeah, okay. So, let's talk about your book again, the title is wild problems and you have distinguish wild problems from tame ones. Maybe that's a good place to start what a wild problems and and water tame and tablets are ones that we can find solutions to using data and algorithm evidence what movie do I want to watch saturday night? He had a pretty good idea of what might be interesting to me from recommendations that I would get online of. I want to get from mom boston to chicago and beat traffic. as much as possible ways or google maps will will help me get there. I want to get to the moon, it's a tame problem, it's on easy problem, but we know how to do it. It's a certain set of steps, theirs sophie and certain problems and life recipes for the way to go.

an algorithm, as is the way to go and were spoiled. We have lots of those techniques for many of the challenges we face in life. We have websites to give us recommendations. We have crowd the wisdom, crowds to help us with recommendations, even even more richly and we'd like most life to be that way must live, is actually its remarkable time to be alive, with the tools that we have for those kind of problems. promises a handful brahms in our lives that are like that or date and ever sir very little value and standard decisionmaking too, I argue, earned, are not helpful. In fact, chemists lead us his problems where we don't have a lot of data either because Things are measurable or the people who have access to the experience can't share it easily. It's hard to put those things into words. or after I make a decision, one where there is only to be a different person can be changed and so is even sure the rationality is, is well defined, so he's gonna problems or whether to get married

who d mary, whether to have children, how many, where to live, work and a clear to pursue some of these rooms, you get some information and get some information about the average salary in an in built in a field, for example, merriment I don't apply to you. You can certainly ask people if they're happy if they're married or happy if they have children, but I think those are very thin, unbelievably thin and in sterile ways of thinking about these kinds of choices and, as I suggested in the subtitled, these are the decisions that define us. They turn out to tell us both who we are and who we can be, and I thank god for many of these decisions trying to make a cost benefit analysis, which is the economists a central element at the top of the economist's toolkit, is, I think, the wrong way to go the most important

of those cost benefit. Analysis of the cost benefit analysis are hard to measure. You can't be entered thoughtfully and were often deceived by the ease with which we can quantify certain things in that often pushes us to ignore others, and I make the analogy of of the person coming home from the party can find their keys the blossom. Someone comes to help out. Finally, the person helping says: Are you sure the surreal awesome nah? I don't think it is, but this is where the lights best and in I think is under the street lighter, and I think, a lot of times we're seduced by where the light is best and often the most interesting things are in the shadows in the darkness. My books, trying to help people live in the dark, but I want to get into some of the core ethical and and medicine issues around how we conceive of what is good and the questioned about men,

mentioned aggregating. We utility I know you have concerns about the limits of utilitarianism or consequential is innocent. I usually refer to it, and that is why I share some of those, or at least I acknowledge the veracity of some of those concerns, but I think we might there might be some daylight, but in the us philosophically there, and all of this has implications for other things. You and I have both talked about another contexts like effective, altruism, which is in vogue at the moment, but before we get down to something like bedrock, let's stay at all the level above that, and just a curb around the pragmatics of just how people make decisions, how they can make decisions. What is worth thinking about and how you're, as you point out so much of our our recipes for a good life, don't really prove that useful

when you're trying to weigh up the pros and cons of a major decision that defines us ended as an example in your book. You spend a lot of time. Looking darwins, certainly comical, but in the end somewhat silly checklist for deciding the pros and cons of marriage press you can describe what darling was up to their own and we can use that too dropping off point sure. So darn was twenty nine years old I'd taken na his trip on the beagle one. He was size thing about settling down. So it was. It was good and being a rational person. He made a list of the pros and cons of marriage it's really embarrassing list. For starters, he went pointy so A wife would be better than a dog anyway, to come home to a very low bar. It's one can be thankful. He wasn't test piloting this on twitter because yeah he be dying

about the origin of species. Exactly it be done, it's a low bar, but in the nineteenth century, but now it's it's it. So that part is a little bit of that's embarrassing. When you look over the list and it's a little bit disorganized or reorganize a bit in the book, would you look at it? The negatives marriage or both more numerous and more serious the positives. Her things like come home to maybe companionship. The negatives are things like stuck with their relatives socialist, with them. The expenses of I'll bearing and child rearing the tragedies of losing children to illness. Won't have time to do your science won't make it act on the world, it seems like an hour. dinner. When you look at the list of someone brought this, let's do and said what do you think

he'd say? Well, obvious choice: don't get married, you're gonna, you risk not becoming one of the greatest scientists of all time in return, return for which he calls female chit chat. Another was them, honourable summary. So, despite that, he then scribbles say that we have his journal, so we have this at his hand. At the end, he writes this stream of consciousness narrative about how horrible it would be too too to be returning it alone to his dingy apartment at night, and all visit rational program list falls apart. It just finally says I'm going mary mary mary exclamation point after each one key day that you know, quotas demonstrate him now that which was to be proved it's over. It's, like I'm ass proof. Gotta get married.

And there's a puzzle there what? Why would the decision that he clearly favours Emily sober light of day, which is to not marry because it it's gonna, be likely not worth it to him and in their mother? a kafka banks the same list years, and he overwhelmingly decides it's also similar. It looks horrible and so he doesn't get married, but Darwin does and de I think it's about six months later he marries his cousin, which is amusing, because it means the relatives is worried about resign relative so anyway, why? What was he thinking The standard answer me. Well, you just made an emotional decision went with his god. I don't think that's what's going on when you look at his list and if it would be true of anybody making such a list and actually open the book with a car inspiration with a friend who is trying to say whether to have a child? And he and his wife made a list of the pros and cons, and he told me after they made the list if they could side where there were so many browser, so many cars that were so weak Similarly, if only waited and

Certainly darwin and my friend I would suggest dont know much about me bridge or childbearing childbearing child raising in the case of marriage, there's nothing in darwin's list about love, share a journey through life together, the ups and downs, of that emotional experience. He didn't have any access to it we know about those things now he can read novels and rev is a big reader of novels, but his married friends, if he had any which he probably did. He could see them socializing, but most people who are married can't explain the specialness of staying with somebody for kids. They can't explain and the way it's on all rosy, of course, certainly you'd. You can appreciate the upside, but there's also some and has a very bad downside, all that It's veiled from most of us before we make a decision about whether to get married or not or whether to have children or whether moved to Israel or whether to become a a chemist rather than a lawyer or a poet. And so how do you think about that? I mean how do you when you can

front that nothing would Darwin confronted was I see myself. I have always seen myself as a married person. Has a father and son He will. He took a leap he married. He had many children tragically Adam died, but he had a very good marriage most of the time towards the end he had some issues with religion and his wife. His wife was very religious, but for most of her life, a blasted marriage, a wonderful marriage, an ironic We want of his favorite things, she did what I don't I mention this was worth. might have to leave london. Much doesn't like london. She did like they had to the countryside turned out. He liked it. He liked coming home spending time with her at night, you read em, so many of the things that make me general in a share of life with another person special he didn't know about, but something in him knew that it was worth leap over even though it did not appear to be a good choice and a good many examples in the balkan peoples

when the world of science math very analytical areas where these kind of decisions they make. What appears to be a rat in irrational. John, and I would suggest it's not a rational and neither are they making a decision with their got. What they're doing? recognising, as I think we all can and should end. Sometimes too, these decisions are about more than just how happy will I be data day with another person or with a child or living in a different place or in a different kind of career paths? Are not the only things we care about those day to day concerns which I call narrow until the terrorism they not irrelevant? They matter there. What economists tend to focus on? They are only though per the story? The rest of the story is the overarching narrative of our identity or sensors of who we are and an hour in the virtues of those those identities and who we could be come not just two, we are now you know in the,

miss model. We have a set of preferences and I try to get the most out of em. The idea that you might want to change your preferences that they might be an attractive or immoral is rarely it's not over hourly ever considered, but in real life. We should consider those things: should consider who we want to be who we want to be calm and those choices. We're talking about set us on those paths, and so it's about more than just the day to day pleasure or pain. I argue in the book. I don't know if you're married sam it on over your shoulder and we're both I I'm married. I have four children. It is possible that the number of days as apparent that are positive, are small, all our than the number of days as apparent that are negative there, a lot of bad days, things go on with your kids. They have challenges have trauma. You can't help them. They are not just like you give you heartache, but they also give a joy and they are amazing and they give you a taste of what it's like

iran parents, they connected your own parents in ways that are unimaginable. They create a future for you have otherwise their nets, not for everyone, it might anymore, good idea for everyone's. It, certainly not, but it's not just about the number of good days versus number a bad days so much more at stake there, and I think people realise that, They want much as I wanted to hover above it, I'm feeling the gravity of the issues you have with consequential ism paulinus inward. So There is a lot in their before we truly above the event horizon. Maybe I just want to ask you about a tool this is it properly in the economics. Ok, I learned it in the engineering economic systems department when I was an undergraduate it sandford. I actually you you say you taught a stand for what years were you there? I was there Eighty five to eighty, seven. Okay, so and then a lot of summers saw an interest.

That's exactly what I was there as well as when I was a freshman and eighty five ticketing economics, I took it said. Did you know? Did you know ron howard? It's funny you mention ron howard. I I had a story for my book that I didn't get into the book, but he has some very very I heard a story about him from one of his students that I was putting the book. I cheered if you yeah I've, I've lived at her cut it. If you are so bored. My book is about certainty and our desire for certainty and that's the power of an algorithm equation, an app it tells us what to do and then then I'll get I'll make the best decision. We we have such a craving for that uncertainty makes us uneasy. And somebody told me story by run howard that I thought was really extraordinary, which was, I heard, the story of the student I contacted professor howard and he gave me his version and I dont, but They give you now, as some might be. The other remarks. But the point is the same in both of them

is that on his exams with each question that you answered you had to assign opera ability that you were right and if you, the higher the probability that you assigned to a question. You got right the more points you got and the lower the price the higher the probability that you signed a you got wrong, you'd lose points, and he told people he said. Don't put a hundred percent certainty next to any answer, because if you put a hundred per cent, the four hundred percent certain and it's wrong. You will get a score negative, infinity and negative infinity cannot be outweighed by your score on the final, if you're midterms, I beg infinity. You fail the class, so that was the story, so he gives the exam and some people and how many put a hundred percent on a question that they got roar and their large were who what happened to them? You know I don't know how how much he he actually enforced it. He detail

that that is some places where he taught they did not allow it. They found it a cruel to give students confront them. With this this decision, it hardly seems cruel to ban and what's powerful about it, of course, is that the student told me the store, it had the class twenty thirty or forty years ago, and it says I have never forgotten that because it it taught me, that you should never be a hundred percent certain about anything, and that is, I believe, very very deep lesson in life and very, very useful to be aware that some uncertainty cannot be resolved. Certainly, you you're, not shouldn't, be a hundred were centre of any thing and da? So that's my ron, howard sure, but I I never knew him when I was at Stanford. Oh, oh yeah too bad. He he was, he is really I've lost touch with him most failed I did interview him for my book line, maybe I'm six or seven years ago by tat, yet he had a great effect on me, ethically more than anything else

He taught this course that he called the ethical analysed paid was a graduate seminar, but it was just a an investigation. Conversation among you know, ten or twelve of us for a quarter out whether or not its ever got a lie right an end. We will very quickly push pass d. The Anne frank scenario, and then you you're, so you're talking about white lies briley for the rest of the course, and you know I I I and I it really seemed very everyone else no class came out of the black box of that course really changed with respect. Ethics of line, and I wrote a short book titled line. That was really my version of what I learned when I was eighteen in that class, but he also taught- and we really pioneered this area of- and I dunno what it's considered now, if it's operations, research or where I dunno, you know where you find it on the shelf, but it's called

our analysis and it's a technique of integrating all the nation one has about a decision and all ones probabilistic intuitions in a sister ways of so can make a what to be a more rational decision. Then just doing Darwin did with a you know, with the pro over here and there in the cons over there and you sort of stare at your piece of parchment. In his gaze for a while, and then you throw up, hands and you make a good decision. integrating everything you ve been here ruminating over, so it howard purported to be able to do and in it the experience of using the tool. I almost never do it, but Back in the day when I was studying it and try in apply to my life. It did seem better than just the pros and cons seemed like it allowed you to systematize you're

our intuitions and especially the hegemony This allowed in class that were far better at making probabilistic judgments than we think we are You know, like the ass, a class of undergraduates, your how many mcdonald's franchises are there on earth. The moment you get a and b. Certainly you see something like the wisdom of the crowd. You aggregate those gases, but most people are pretty good. They're not orders of magnitude off and is true for probabilistic judgments about things that are gonna happen in the future in anything get better doing that, so I guess this along, and I actually don't remember whether ron did that on on any of the tests I took for him, but that's a very wrong thing to have done with them in for a negative outcome, but it was an experience of feeling like we could in some

perfect world get better at aggregating that our complete state of information and thinking about this from the other side as a counterpoint to what you just suggested, the what what else do we have to go on but the totality of information we have and think we have about the yo, what's likely to happen on the basis of taking one path or another and couldn't we at the end of the day, also build into are forward. Looking model of, what's likely to happen. The probability It will be changed by the decision itself, and this is a topic that I want to explore with you there just yet, as you point out, certain decisions change so like a soap bubble, What was so silly about darwins list is said he so completely blind to this prospect and really this certainty that in a once, you're married things are going

seem different. You know you're just you're not able in this list to AL you things the way you will value them once you have this wife, you love right and so on anyway, I do. I gave you a lot there, but what? What do you think about decision analysis or some other as yet uninvested for her leveraging are our rationality more than than we do at present, I think about emails. I get answer pop up on my web ages about try. This is the path to be more precise, active. This is the path to being more fit. Seven men at work out, and they were click on this- have a minute workers.

I don't ever looked at, and that was that was popularized by the new york times and I tried it for awhile separated. My shoulder during one of the depths on my piano bash was a mistake, but the bigger mistake was thinking you know. Would it be awesome if there were seven minute workout? I wouldn't have to really like work and studies show The seven minutes are now I'm sure somewhere there might even be peer, reviewed, there's data said shows that it's true, I think so, wanting to say to what you said. I'm not sure I'll, remember everything I want to comment on, but I'd start with the fact that our brains, don't always process things so well and we often look for the easy way out or the thing that we already decided. But we tell ourselves a story. You know the narrative fallacy and we will find data to convince us that we made the right decision, then we'll ignored the data this on the other side and I think bringuier- that's very powerful. Having said that, used

when you can I'm not anti data, not anti procon. It's a good idea. It's just that the point Our story is that, if you are not careful we'll leave out some of the most important things if you have a really good decisionmaking process and you remember those things and you see council, which is always I didn't ask a friend who you trust and who can be honest with you to think about how you think about what should be thought about. That's very powerful. It's not unimportant and then perhaps even think about how you ought to weigh the different things. But I The other part that I comment on is that the idea that I can imagine what my life will be like in the future as a as a married person or as a parent or as a resident of a different place or in a different kind of career, that an illusion. That's that's not like what do the best. I can know it's an illusion. You can't get very good at it and here said the other hard point. The things that will come to mind are often the things that are

there are more tangible and the intangible things are to be hard to remember. That's one good reason: why should it council, certainly a good friend, can help you think those as intangible things, but at the root of part of the critique than I'm trying to make in the book, which has a critic of economists under under the service, is pointing out that many pleasures are not commensurate ah, and to think that I can taught them up, I can just pile them up and then subtract away. The pans ignores the fact that there are certain issues were that's not the right. Calculus know this. This really raises rears its head in an ethical decisions or decisions of commitment right. How should I treat my spouse? Try treat my wife when I'm thinking about my obligations should I think well, in a what can I get away with to be as happy as possible

tempted right and it's a natural impulse, we're hardwired burma hardwired to look for ways to take advantage of our spouses, our friends, to do what helps us and not have to make sacrifices to free ride on their efforts and what works in the other direction. while loyalty, love commitment, honour as ex religion. There's a bunch of things but for many of us those things are weak, and so would you argue that the best man, words for you not fear the two of you, but for you mister see how much you can get away with the terms of the daily responsibilities of carpool and dishes and cooking and cleaning and filling out the taxes and an hour if your wife won't notice. We all want understand, as despicable is not a business. Honourable path, but resources there's nothing attractive about it and we'd argument.

that's wrong. It just wrong, but why, sir on him in six like? Is that where we do through all of us are alive, we look for advantageth, look for a chance to get ahead. We look for what makes me happy as possible, but we address understand that such as it is wrong and shouldn't those things, but there the hard to do so. How do you should you do a cost benefit analysis, and then your deathbed realize you've been horrible person, even though we're really happy. I think that's horrifying and I think most of us recoil at the thought of that. So I don't think I think the standard decision making analysis if you're, not careful, leaves out ethical the shared experiences that are often complicated. It leaves out and commence of certain pleasures over others? He can't just add them up and for me part of my spoke, is to help people recognises no right decision, there's no best decision and it is really hard for people when it comes to marriage

who to marry not whether to marry but who to marry. You want to find the best possible spouse like a car. I wouldn't want the car this best roommate No, I get on fill out a questionnaire told you have you liked. Drivers judge into debt at my desk over me as a two cedar that aside what a spouses- it's a different kind of decision four figuring out, which cars going over the most pleasure sure if it doesnt have a back seat. You understand we are giving up if it, many ban, you understand what you're giving up, but whence a spouse particular person, a woman of that one. Would you giving up find a nicer wondering about a smarter winning about a prettier one. You can find a way citing one you name it so did- is at horse a mistake, cash you to think about that, Some thought easy to think about with a rational decision that debate in that context, not saying o them flip a coin or do whatever you do just choose normally close your eyes, but dont feel yourself in a thing

that you're gonna make a rational decision in these kind of areas that, like you, do with your connachar to buy Well, maybe this a good place to invoke herbert simons concept of satisfies in because that gets we do instead of arriving at if you'd like to continue listening to this conversation, you'll need to subscribe and sam herriston work once you do you'll get access. All full length episode of the making sense podcast, along with other subscriber only content, including bonus episodes and aim yes and the conversations I've been having the waking up at the makings has podcast his ad free and relax. thailand listener support and you can subscribe now at san harris dot org the