I'm here with Joseph Goldstein, who say a very old friend and quite respected medicine can teacher and we're gonna talk about all things really the tomb met. It in mindfulness view Joseph and I have known each other for about twenty five years, and we, he was one of my first meditation teachers and became a friend a long time ago, has been allowed, I'm studying with with other teachers in Asia, here a record in this interview with me Anders lesson ideal audio conditions. So I apologise for that. For those of you who don't know star, the inside meditation society in western Massachusetts and Probably done more than anyone know certainly as much as anyone to establish, practice mindfulness in the west end. Explosion of interest, you see in mind on this, in the scientific community and in clinical practice, Is largely the result of how clearly he and his colleagues have taught it to thousands of western

is so Joseph and are going to talk about mindfulness and the mind in general and probable, push into some areas of interest only to us and alienate the ninety nine percent of our listeners, but as what we are free to do so, Joseph thanks. For being here, and thank you for agreeing to talk about what I am to a chance to get into the meat of our discussions here, which we have had over all these years. Joseph and I have had the arguments on this out- everything about everything and on transcontinental flies where he has been captive and desperate. To avoid me, however, unsuccessfully so up before we get into esoteric, tell us a little but that's how you got into meditation and how you how this became your life's work. Well, I was, Studying philosophy at Columbia. University in New York is an undergraduate, but

Time my senior year came around those really anxious to get out and see the world, and this was in one thousand nine hundred and sixty five, and it was just as soon after the peace Corps was established Tat seemed to be a really good vehicle, forgetting out an end. Parts, new parts of the world applied to pieces, he's got actually applied to go to EAST Africa, but, as phase or karma or accident, whatever, whatever the conditions may be happens They sent me to Thailand, which turned out to be very fortunate happening, While I was in Thailand, I had my first contact really with Buddhism Buddhist teachings and meditation soon after eyes started teaching in Bangkok, Backpacker teaching English started.

To discussion, group at the marble Temple, which is quite a famous temple in Bangkok, There were some western monks who will leading that discussion from introducing westerners to some of the buddhist ideas and concepts because having just graduated college in philosophy? I went there full of my own ideas about things and out ask so many questions in the group that people would stop coming like and we ve all been in groups like that. We probably both didn't adversity, worthiness. Honourable blowhard, exactly so. Finally, this one month says just if I think about it. I didn't know anything about I'd, know anybody unmeditated, I was twenty one on two years old in the Far EAST is all streamline exotic to me, I'm just seems like a really interesting thing to do

So he gave me some initial instruction and I also began little reading. There's one classic book called the heart of buddhist meditation. Which laid out the basic methodology. And so I gathered kind of all sitting paraphernalia cushions this amount to sit and. Very first time I set my alarm clock for five minutes. For said, but some quite amazing happened in that five minutes and really change the whole course of my life. So he said First time you say you actually connected with the practice and realize it was something worth looking Well, what I realized it wasn't that I had any great, enlightened and experience, but I realized was that there were a way to look into the mind. As well as looking out through it all my life. I've just been looking out right. Of my mind rather than looking into it. So turning in place

just that was so extraordinary to me, got so excited I started inviting my friends over to watch me meditate fresh. Arguably, the report is a well more charitably was naive. It really came out of this tremendous enthusiasm, for you know what I felt I was discomfort right away Let me come back her. She is very good. It may be very, very poor but there was the beginning. Then no the course of my time in the peace corps I just extended time past five minutes a little bit, but still So how long did it take you to actually go on intensive retreat at the end of my peace corps stay, I haven't,

experience. Somebody was reading from a tibetan text. Friend was reading so this way you'd been meditated for one year, maybe a bavarian budget intermittently, just an hour day or something and probably not even rightly them, but I was dabbling just dabbling in a bad reading and going to into classes trying to find out more about it but just at the end of my peace course tat before I left for home. Really transformative experience, listening to somebody read from a tibetan text and it just wasn't experience of opening to an end. Standing of the mind and covered classical buddhist terms, they talk about the unborn, the uninformed. Using words like that describe the free.

This aspect of the mind. Something happened. What the hell happened, Somebody somebody reading the text, a tibetan text and- add a dish that was a very early translation of it, which a translation which has now been so so a faulty translate a folder for translation, but I'm Evans when yet pulled a program that roads abandon book of the great liberation right in been much more careful. Translations of it wrote a very powerful ones, but even in that faulty translations have the new translations revised the very line you found. So no, I saw a social back up. You ve got you ve got this this faulty victorian translation, then book of the great liberation and you have a friend his reading out here and then at one point

the reading on the word unborn the mind open to that experience. The same will say more about that. You hear this word unborn, you're, you're, looking into your mind, all the while what changes so it It's a momentary experience that has the power of a lightning bolt. So it's a unique moment of The mind going from being aware of different things arising moment. If the moment sites it sounds in Britain, the mind itself and then On hearing the word unborn, I'm it's it's very hard to describe, but it was. If you think, literally of what that word means on born it's it's there.

Sperience of non occurrence suffer. Being born is something occurrence, some and if the moment experience is being born and died. It was dying moment if the moment unborn. Is a moment of non occurrence which broke that stream. Of continual birth of continual occurrence. Agnes the metaphor, simply one of those right after right after that moment I described to myself is zero. It was the experience of zero rap sets out. The experiences was, however, difficult it is to characterize it entailed the law.

Ass of ordinary sensory experience. You no longer seen hearing smelling, tasting touching thinking right to the what's. The lights went out, you'll some sense, lights went out in some sense, but there were a knowing of that right rest and this gets into another. The deeper discussion about experience, which would but yeah have later. So it is so it is the knowing of a reality but doesn't entails. Ordinary sensory possession it zero right. As regards the rebuilding of the hardware yeah One of the things that became so apparent is zero is not nothing wrong The powerful member and perhaps the most powerful member and the fruit of the fruit of that experience was The immediate

standing in realisation of the selflessness of this whole process. We call life, but this nose. There's? No one to whom it's happening right. It's a process of what one teacher, that's just empty phenomena rolling on meaning the self empty of core substance that that experience doesn't refer back to anyone. I met us battle was just understood completely in that moment, though, that view of self has just completed so so then. What take me back to the immediate aftermath of experience? Your friend is reading this this book to you, on the word unborne. When you have this this cessation experience, You come out of it so,

But lately that are completely right, when I mind is blown and an attempt to stop waiting until has a how long do you think you had been gone or just just a second momentary right, and so you can so you have this transformation, and now you're, you you're articulating it to your friend I was it was the next half hour like next. Have ours like I was in a completely altered sense of everything. Because it was free of any notion of self respect. The self centre had just dropped away run, but I This wasn't the fruit of many years of practice, so I really have any I have very little context for stemming the solo. I knew enough. That's something familiar within the buddhist tradition. I just

happened, but I didn't understand mechanism or what led up to it and I didn't have any context- was it? Was there anything new? of about it or scary about it. It. I you at all destabilizing relay that, where you're searching to get back to who you were, I wasn't searching to get back to her. I was, but that there was a period of things some days where it was. It was these stabilizing of my previous way of being and the conventional way of being so I was kind of- trying to find my sea legs and all this right, but it was a part of you at all that worried about it, I thought about it in into a pathological terms, even as are even us, there was, kind of uncertainty about had a manifest read how relate them now,

I was felt that something for men slew, powerful and revealing had happened right. To stick with immediate aftermath was that the character of your experience in that moment was changed. But if I recall correctly were experiencing things which now you don't necessarily tend to experience a baby. Now selfishness is still obvious to you, but there features of your experience in the immediate aftermath of cessation that are not. Right now as well as what was what was especially Sally or psychedelic, or otherwise odd about those next hours. Worry of isn't like it was days tools like, then you have a week where it felt like you as much the. The person in the room and resell young artists, but also. This happened fifty years ago. So, even though,

it's very the experiences very vivid terms of impact in understanding so some of the details- have have faded for you, but you have had what you consider the same experience again to the practice. Meditation I have been knocked not actually, as dramatic, were backed the aftermath was, is not as dramatic worthy. The actor actually think that you can detect a different character to the cessation experience did I would say, the aftermath does not is dramatic. Sunset talk about the aftermath for a minute it means I first I wonder I mean I I told my friend to stop reading, because No, he didn't understand what has just happened just destroyed for my

so I've been there is not went to going on, because it's like I from my perspective, I had experienced what Beck teaching was trying to do so. Why? Why keep reading there is redundant that that points and I just wondered off and I remember. This was in a school was right. Next to the bankruptcy just wandering around. I was wandering around in the zoo in just at this place of as long as you, seven, where you expressed it, there was no separate out of myself separate from ever, that was being seen or heard right? It was all those all one thing but presumably, if you can do that now in the context of this

precision with me, but this is not quite the same thing, because what is it? But it's talk about the positive characteristics of this dramatic sperience that is positive not in in a surly, be as being good versus bad but positive in terms of something added to the flavour of of experience is not happening mostly again sure of this, but my sense is that it was just the newness. Thrive, experience and so they came so out of the blue and so unexpected and not as the result, the Bay systematic meditative progression. Rather than that change was so dramatic, so sudden, so unexpected, so without mental preparation. It's a bit like through the looking glass Listen. You turned inside out.

Now it's did that bad experiences understand how much more familiar to me. So I think that's. It just doesn't have the same. Dramatic interests threat. Think there's a difference interested in your stability and that experience so that in the media, aftermath of cessation, you were so belies in that selfless their awareness to a degree that is not new, I'm all in your life work it's a little hard to say because The kind of most of those it had a half laboratory wore off this. This transfigured exe obviously there or on the after. Days or the other days, and then what then you, then you really wanted to you know what the hell happened yet exactly and but that this is just at the end of my peace corps stay. So I was going home and I had no avenue

I had no idea what to do, how to integrate this, but I a moment. I tried talking to people about the fact that there is really no self itself as a contract, because meeting you that your rabbi in the berkshires are well to my family when I got home even to friends before the friends in the peaceful before before I left. This is like a week or two before. So there's this huge transition happening finishing my time piling up matters states, obviously people had no ev relating to what I was talking about. So When I went home at it, Take me long too, realize that I wanted to pursue this. Standing and oxygen

that little anecdote when I was how much I went up to a place called Chapel House, a pocket university system. To go on a little retreat myself, but this before had done any intensive practice, but it so I went to his post beautiful place, abstained in New York and they had a copy of that text. And so I got somebody to read method. That extra digging up can recreate that something here ass ready to have voted against it. I realise that out in a balanced way, and so then I just became motivated to go back to Asia. This is done in sixty five. Not now. This is sixty seven. I went into the fiscal and sixty five, and this happened just beginning months of sixty seven You are a apart part of that wave of westerners going to India

The highly early part going to India to meet eastern teachers of their assets, so I was gonna go back to Thailand since this will this happen But I stopped in India and the white people give me the names of different indian teachers and growers So when there are just wandering around to some different options, so Hindu, comes about as to their there, you at this point. You are not committed to Buddhism as the contacts Rear study, I think I was not so much consciously, When I went to this one seek our sham. Teaches this Billina sound, not yoga, something like Bulgaria. So when there is a very powerful big affirming the Punjab round, I've got tenant is now the master of the take up. Well, we found that does not ignore about it.

He was very, very impressive, very powerful and everybody who went there was on the on the trajectory of one or two get initiated into it, so that all the pressure. The peer pressure was to go initiation, but There was just something in me based on this experience. That said, this is not my path, so for personal interview with the message. And he was he- was here- and how to convince me, everything I said I said to him- just- doesn't feel the right path. For me, I think I'll go back to Thailand and he said I think you should stay in India, but not necessarily with have not with him. He was so as it turned out that prove to be prescient remark, whether from my, perspectives of pity you weren't a terminal. There would have been a very different, varied of impasse,

I'm going back to the train station to go back to delay to go to Thailand again in the richer on the way to the train station. The thought pops into my mind, you sure, got a book Gaia, which is the place, the Bhutto's inland. I go to Bulgaria and the sun there, not that many westerners in Bulgaria, there were very few. I go to this called the Burmese, be, however, with the western has bestowed like the burmese rest House for burmese pilgrims, but Burma was closed at that time, so the number muse were coming. So the few estimates that maybe five, Five, six, westerners there was staying there met some of their group of danish people.

They were studying meditation with this person named on a very common Indra who had just come back from nine years in Burma and was teaching the personal incite meditation. So he had just come back. You started teaching in Bulgaria, so these danish people- said no, you like to meet manipulate, so I went to see him. He explained of a passing practice and it was an immediate. Can I it's exactly what I was looking for, It wasn't a pass now what you have been given in Thailand and nuts really what I have been given in Thailand was much more just Preliminary being with the breath, right seems more like a concentration practice in a way and it was very unintended of you know when I went to manoeuvre and he explained the practice and I started doing it intensively, that's when I realized this is a good

expression of what might experience was had been run off we're on our listeners, who are unaware of the May, be unaware of the details of a passing practice. Can you do a two minute guided meditation? Let's just to get us. There have you drink that wasn't crackling water bodies through an hour or two I got him into do. He explains the basics of the past practice. Which is really simple. It's the sitting meditation art is sitting them, Starting with attention on the breath. And just feeling feeling the sensations experience of the breath. And being aware of moment to moment whatever arises, sensations and the body thoughts motions Since we do a little garden meditation, I like a minute or two

look at it. So if as you listen to this, it is take some comfortable posture sitting in a relaxed way involved, some are generally we close our eyes, but can also be then the eyes open so said and I begin by taking a few deep breaths simply as a way of settling into the awareness of the body, then let the birth come to its own natural rhythm,

Simply be aware of feel listen, sensations of each breath as it comes into the body is it leaves the body. It's not a breathing exercise, its an exercise in awareness, and so we simply use the breath as a vehicle for being aware.

As you feel, a breath going in and out you may become aware of sounds background, sounds loud. Sounds then, simply notice, hearing the aware of the experience of hearing the sound comes and goes when returning to the breath, we might begin to feel other sensations in the body. Pressure of tightness, of tingling vibration, Fanny sensation becomes predominant, become aware of the sensation notice how it changes its no longer predominant can return to the path.

Aware of any thought of images that appear in the mind, Believe me in birth, in our path for May, come at first May, carry your way lost in thought, but at a certain point you become aware that you thinking might make a soft mental, no thinking, thinking to highlight and emphasise the awareness of thought rather than being lost in it and notice. What happens to the thought in the moment of awareness does a continued as it is here.

And the third is no longer there again returned to the breath of bodily sensations suddenness

where we are just being mindful moment if the moment of whatever is the predominant experience in the body in the mind, and through that awareness, we begin to see the changing nature of all these phenomena. Things are arising in passing away in the awareness of this process of change, the mind, no longer clings and the mind of non clinging of non grasping is really the essence of the possible practice for us great service. He thinks the point out there. What one is

That is the whole practice in the very short span. You can give more or less the entire practice. There's no, that may there for this fine, this tweaking the dials that you may want to emphasise for some one in the middle of a three month for trade or what given whatever they happen to be experiencing, but in seed form the whole logically, the practice was just given was you about the. I think. The reason why it has been drafted by so many clinicians and and allow scientists who are studying meditation is that. One. It doesn't require that you add anything strategically to your experience or not, repeating Monterrey on visualizing, something you don't have to develop an interest in or sympathy for historical figures or imaginary imaginary figures showing a deity

And in the day in Hinduism murdered Tibetan Buddhist Cannon, and so it really is just paying closer attention to whatever happened, to be happening. In a moment in the mind and body, and the other very important feature of it is that it in principle doesn't exclude anything so this, so you don't need a quiet room, you don't need a comfortable body and the boy anything you notice is as good as any other. I asked of agitation and that virtually every other practice that doesn't can't can't meet those two tasks, so I think it's perfectly design for export to a secular scientific, the audience because it because it stands for real life is just like an ever. If you, if you will, want to know something more about what it's like to be you, and what one could could possibly be discovered through introspection. It makes sense to pay attend exactness all. This is a dangerous that when I first went

majority guy, when I went to meet him, he said something That was so, common sense of it was so striking to me it's really what was a big cook for me. He said. If you want to understand your mind, sit down and observe it that was held. There- was nothing to believe there was nothing join. It was just that How else can we understand our minds, except by observing so the nothing the x Stability of it. The common sense of it was so striking to me, of course, as we do the practice, maybe there are many many dimensions of our experience that reveal themselves that previously we had not been aware of yeah, so those very deep into with tremendous new ones, but the basic instruction

is the simple yeah. That's all it is always a matter of now. Being lost in thought about the experiences and noticing thought as thought and noticing the character of experience with interest, and Grasping pleasant, Annette, looking away to arouse exactly simply always been aware of what arrived an end. I think one thing that people get confused about is the obviously there that there is a vast amount that the brain is doing and that, therefore the mind is doing that were not aware of, and that is not best discover through introspection, MRS hence fifteen city of having the whole branches of science name psychology in neuroscience and and cognitive resigned and cognizance linguistics and everything else. I'm following the the rules of English grammar more or less effortlessly to get to the end of the sentence. No idea how I M doing now, and when I fail to do that, I have no idea why fail and the best way to discover those

Details is not by me paying attention because it simply not visible. The data are not there, but what mindfulness is a tool. To be as aware as possible of the actual character of your subjective experience in the south. The best way to do neuroscience is the best way to be aware of what it's like to be you and every moment the end as its in that context that can discover whether or not this thing you call yourself exists. The way you have always thought it does and it's also its varied. Magic in another sense, because one of the things Discover, through the simple introspection and observation, is to see what patterns of thought an emotion, create suffering myself dollars an hour, free of that suffer an that's really the bottom line of wider. Do it it's a

way of coming out of suffer ends, and we become much more expert in terms of understanding our own minds and arm conditioning, because we all have established habit patterns that are not helpful, the not conducive to peace, not conducive to freedom. We need to learn about that ring. It is to see how all of that happening. So take me back to nail with men in Bulgaria and he's. Making a lot of sense and has given you a practice that seems very promising. In light of this experience, you haven't Thailand what is your motivation that why you're motivation a interest in the nature of the mind? Is it getting rid of suffering that your findings tolerable. What it was strive for me for me interest was the key I didn't have any obvious suffering I was just.

Still very young us twenty three years old, and I was just incredibly interested at this point. In the mind and exploring the implications ramifications of what this experience was and upon this further investigation. I realize that who does Emily explained it did. This was this was the most appropriate context for the exploration who had been at that point. Had you gone and met other gurus apart from that one seek had you met now in order another, my mom knows no. I had gone up to the modest to try to find some tibetan teachers since it had been in tibetan text

but it is in the middle of winter, and I was freezing cold and the beds at all runs out. So nobody there now and someone injure was really aside One after my had gone to use the first. He tried medicines. I feel very fortunate because was just exactly what goes on the far right, but you do some practice in another tradition of deposit, because you see Sacco Ankara, those amateur after you get about you you me Manindra. How long did you stay loaded is get the very first time I was in India. I stayed for about six weeks of two months and come back to the states. And when I see when I started, I had no concentration So it's almost like, I was practising to catch up to the experience I have had read. Because I hadn't than any of the mental them

development than in the normal course of things would have culminated in that right. And so when I started to actually you what you are not a prodigy, not met. Occasional prodigy ma side of actually doing the pact and not at all. In fact, I think the opposite of what interested, but this breakthrough stations experience as a starting point. Why would not have made you a prodigy The only the only. Prodigy aspect that I, at discern there was without doubt about the pair had been limited pick site. I had this very clear understanding, realization. Of the selflessness central of it all, but I saw also that there is still a lot more work to do. There is still a lot of condition, habit patterns of mind that still there. So, even though I knew there was selfless did I had.

Basic understanding still and where when you sat down to meditate women injured you're spending, all your time ass in the area, have concentrate here not exactly and enjoying it The administrative spending now it's your legs and exactly what is basically to, but I knew, had found the pay, the path mates instrument, even though that was not easy but I don't have any doubt I knew yet. This is what I want to do so back to the states work for little women, while mental money- and just you know, is anxious to get back in to pursue it. When I went I got inspired to do the meditation on loving kindness matter matter. That's Polly word I have just come to realisation that I felt that this was a quality, that

I could well developing myself feel little lacking in myself, so lacking in the world. So inspired. Can you just described what their practices you need to do their Hyderabad so that, The way methods done. One way it's done traditionally is just a thing: of somebody. You start with a benefactor somebody for whom you have good feeling, loving feeling an? U visualize, em, an repeat. Certain phrases of loving kindness and well wishing intimated be happy, maybe peaceful, maybe five suffering. And it's really becomes a mantra of loving kindness repeating phrases directly to the image and then

the progression going from a benefactor to a friend, somebody's neutral somebody who's difficult for you to all beings. So it's a gradual expanding field of loving kindness and, unlike mindful in this practice. There is a target mental state after trying to kindle and a whole, yet in the mind and grow and deepen and there's a very explicit goal. Yes terms of the mental state you're trying to produce an end factor there. There are two aspects to it once the development of the feeling of loving kindness, but it is, also a concentration technique, and so what develops it can also used to develop concentration as well as the feeling of loving kindness, and For me, I saw I did I was doing this loving kindness meditation intensively also for about six weeks Two months, so that's all day every day, Huron Retreat

and It was in doing that practice that, for the first time my mind developed some concentration and it was. It was quite remote it's a whole new inner space and for even though I had no doubt about the practice and as committed to doing it is really difficult in hours. Savoured work here. First time you had had periods that were period of intensive practice on return doing but partner, where you hadn't broken through now or use your first period, a period of retreat was doing better now for the first six. Weeks when I first went to guy, I was doing the Parson partner, but but ten hours a day and still does feeling the effects of not having concentrated

nice continually trying to bring my my back and present. It was hard work, but I have no doubt about. I wanted to do it, but so you, but you were hard case. Because many has people, do a ten there are three weeks treat the pasok athirst imo and at some point that retreat that maybe do experience can effortless dysentery, now. I didn't and that's why for me now, as a teacher I have, tremendous confidence in people being able to do, it makes our. I could do it. Anybody because my mind was so uncomfortable, but the matter really that a start which, to my mind a degree of concentration, not fantastic, but sufficient and changed everything because once develops, a certain level of concentration, then the practice becomes much more effortless rat and there's a momentum to the practice and becomes much more enjoyable and said

during that period of the loving kindness was really important. For me, in the hall, trajectory and then a sudden when I went back to the personal and then just proceeded, to continue with a possible going through who the hell are. You stay in India this time I was in India over a seven year period and those back and forth to the states may be two times two or three times in that period. For few months at a time I was mostly in India, Malta endeavour seven years would a guy Bulgaria during the winter months up and we would go to the Mountains- the summer months, Thalhauser that Thou has is very, very hot in the planes in the summer so an enduring spurious ear basically for seven years and now this The period where a real influx of westerners year is now noticeably round us an Anna and the whole party through Bulgaria,

doing like our then so did you say you studied. As well. During her, I did starting a night Seventy I started doing going for which is also very powerful, is a very powerful but I have is item major obstacles. When I first started doing going, could this, which is a body scanning so that the difference being you don't focus on the breath as a primary point point of contact, you actually very strategic, we move through the by noticing sensation from your toes your head and back again he does Emphasise using the breath for the first few days of a tender retreat for, and Roger Concentration, and then it opens up to the bodies scan So when I first started doing that, I

we ve, been within Indra for a few years ago. My body it totally opened up just became a body of light on his wonderful. Just the free flow of any unpack that that the phrase in Seattle spoken body of light. What it will be, my body like it's, it's you weren't literally glowing, from the inside the it felt like it. But usually we experienced the body somewhat them solid, but through this intensive body scaling up and now it began to experience, the body is busy and energy field Ratan, meaning justa a field of flowing sensations with no solidity and place and sows justice, free flow of energy that vat, it's very enjoyable. And so I got into the garden but just been ours

Hours in that sphere very effortless, then I had to go back to the states. Nedda had run out of money when backfire. Compliments when I came back to in My I had lost my body of light and it had become like a body of twisted steel, and I could not recreate that experience. And for two years I was struggling to get that back struggle. In the context of meditation with Go Anko Young women Indra now, with going C c spent two years doing the guy the style, the more I send my first years, three and a half years doing that style so, it had started off. Gloriously right admitted it cried rushed, but of course my from the point of the practice is not,

to recreate a specific body Caracas station, but both do seductive it was too seductive ends there. I was just doing it long red bride and it's a good idea to get you instruction are not really there's because there was, A lot of emphasis in that tradition to get that free flow of those in a way the goal wrote and sows it was exceedingly frustrating is the worst to use. My path is right and it took me. It took me two years to realise that it's not about getting something back, but to be with how things are so fine. A long, long time find my mind, let go of that fixation just relax into how wearing them They started to be movement again,

and never never got back to how it was right. But it didn't matter is a different kind of different kind of flow. So that was it that was its own moaning yeah on terms in this than what the pact is really is about, and what s at point of interest to me, which we argued about in other contacts, but it is interesting that the way in which the logic of a practice with explicit or implicit can lead you to practice in a way that is not profitable that visit visit very classic progression in what are called the stages of inside, so there's a very classic unfolding of different spheres

says where people at a certain stage have experiences of tremendous rapture and clarity, concentration and all the things that were practicing to develop at this particular stage. There called corruptions of insight because the tendency is for almost everybody in one way or another to get attached to them, It's such a remarkable shift from anything. That's happened before that when you are experiencing that they just because you ve arrived here. Has the flavour of, unlike the seems like the offices of this, is why I was bragged exactly. I want to feel this way exactly. It's called pseudo nirvana here and so it takes some real guidance at that point too, simple be my full of those states, as as other changing conditions, not to be attached to it.

And the very next stage of insight is called seeing. What is the path and what is not the path, and that's an important juncture, because until that point we think that having those experiences is the path and so we have to really go through them and see that it, not a bit. That's just it Spirits is along the way and that the whole path is ways about letting go it's not about holding on. And whatever, is fundamental to them. Your mind has to be discoverable in the context of whatever experience happens to be present. If the thing you're taking to be significant is thereby v jus of having the conditions endanger engine condition, place then obviously vulnerable to us exactly can't exactly that.

Would like to say in the teaching in guiding people through situations like this, it is freedom is the pendulum conditions is not freedom. Just take me back, that period that now you're you're in vogue, I've been there for years now, you just practice in its contacts. You're not going to me now, The girl, above our and under my mind, has now because the horse, the spiritual, sir this is happening around you, everything that you can read about in wrong. It looks I had no interest, I was so. I was so. In alignment, but this path, it was so exactly felt so right from it, I really had no interest in doing anything else, except deepening my experience and over the years there

he's an unfolding path of experience and go to all kinds of different different experiences, all of which ought to be. Let go of. Butter is completely fascinated like this journey into the map, the exploration of the mind the very real feeling that, as vast as things are looking out into space, that same vastnesses when you look in the inner space and sows tremendously compelling had you had that cessation expire hence again through the practice of past, now undermine Indra going in those years enough seven years in India, practicing capacity still haven't gotten back. To that same experience, no. The tenth remembered ass him. Now it got back to.

The quality of mind. Did the openness of mind. That is the fruit of that expert rest, but not that thirty three percent data cessation transparency. So then, what wended that come wonder to win, and so Then, in eighty four met up armies teach aside openly to him and his very demanding teacher very strict. So there was a whole home movement of again doing intensive practice, but with tremendous intensity her bearing down there those in practising with him in that first eighty forecourt- sort none the eighty focus, but then in eighty five went to Burma and set within their owners practising with deeper,

There was some experiences not with the same impact but which she thought were of that that, and that's when I realized Fatima to who knows, because it didn't seem to me to be that right, but here's this great saying so yeah and So in the course of my history, I've had experiences where I thought something significant had happened and the teachers didn't well, I thought it wasn't so significant and the teachers did and so it earlier. I would imagine you come down on the side of your perceives. Significance has trump their outside view of your mental, element will invoke. I know because at that

There are so many different kinds of spiritual, experiences approach with you, if you have one that, has a profound effect on you going forward ragged, it's it's, the measure of its significance is a profound effect. Its lasting profound effect here, but sometimes in the moment, you can think something is very profound and I've had this year I guess what I'm trying to say is that the man So always super clear the unfolding experience for different individuals, Sometimes is sometimes isn't. I've come to his sense of just staying open to the different possibilities of what something means rushing to conclusions isn't that also synonymous with being open to the possibility of the maps are not accurate,

not accurate and complete every man, of necessity, limited its Its concepts I'm trying to describe experience and experience is always more varied right, then happen conditioned by some things. I guess What is just become much more relaxed with regard to conclusions, you know, since the basic framework for me at this point is With regard to the whole range of spiritual experiences the measure of its importance is whether that fireman's lessened and perhaps uprooted rat or not we begun using a few terms? It will undoubtedly

the unfamiliar to most of our audience. One is Zog Chan with it. You ve already defined the partner, but maybe just as clearly define the partner as a tradition and also something that's ok Then people will have their various. The passing it is polyglot. In ancient India in I that it said the Buddha spoke means inside meditation and that particular and meditation is practised mostly in South EAST Asia, in what's known as the terror Father Buddhist tradition, the tradition of Buddhism, that's practised in Sri Lanka, Burma, Thailand, so it really is first to this particular kind of meditation that Philip see, Foundations of the four ways of establishing mindfulness suspect much embed.

In this terawatt, a tradition of South EAST Asia And- and they are the primary technique- is cultivating this quality of attention called Michaelmas, the purpose of which is to see three characteristics. A phenomenon Maybe just where I sat. The point of developing I'm from inside the purpose it serves is In order to see clearly in terms of the developed, wisdom seeing her one more clarity, the impact millions of everything that arises and would rises also going to pass and in repository begin to see this flow of employment. On one more microscopic levels as the mine gets more refined nutrition stronger, really in the momentary flow phenomena and as a result of that, we begin to see the what is called the unsatisfying nature.

Phenomena the characteristic of things being ultimately unsatisfying and that's what we should perhaps, but a footnote there that this term is your tracks, Lady Agnes, as unsatisfying or unsatisfactory, is often translated as suffering and hence the idea that the Buddha said life is suffering you might just wax from. But on that topic, I think that the Polly word is due and it is the central word- of the four noble trees of the buddhist teachings, the truth the cause of at the end of it in the way to the end, as you mentioned, is often translated as suffering, but it's a very accurate translation because, As we know, there are many things in life at a pleasant and enjoyable, and we don't experience as suffering the deeper meaning of the word That is the things. Ultimately. Or unsatisfying were unreliable.

Precisely because their impermanent to some of these things are pleasant summer, unpleasant but all alike Equally Duca in the sense of not capable giving us a lasting satisfaction in that way of understanding. It becomes much more universal we can begin to encompass all of our experience in this truth of deeper. Which is very related to that, of implementation and the third characteristic, which is illuminated film. Possum is the selfless nature are phenomena that, Flow of experience doesn't belong to any one. There's, no there's no self behind to whom it's happening, that what we are is this flow of change and so the mindfulness is really in the service of developing this wisdom and the is that is in the service of liberation, fix. When we see the three characteristics than the mind doesn't hold on pleasant grasp and in the free,

from grasping the mind the minded street and so, when you say, liberation or freedom. What one liberated from in what is one free of ultimately, what we're freeing the mind from ah various afflicted emotions which the book condensed into three roots: three unwholesome words of greed and hatred and out of which all the others come naturally, what we're freeing the mind from thing, it from greed, faded from hatred sitting delusion, Thus, I guess the other term that is come up. Perhaps with mentioned it already, I'm on raising as a counterpoint to the partner practice. It's the teachings absorption in the tibetan Buddhist tradition, theirs suitable similarity between the Partner very closely to your experience in the present moment. Tension very closely to your experience in the present moment and not adding anything strategically to it. But the thing is you,

about Zol China's a path of practices that it begin not with a technique. Although we can begin with many preliminary practices that that anyone can adopt, but it really only begins with an inn right into the nature of awareness into the selfless. Often call non dual nature of awareness and this is generally precipitated by a dialogue with Asia. Can master is ocean teacher who really a hands on way guides you into having this insight into the nature of consciousness. The clearest point of contact with it Ass at agencies is that It is essentially a facilitated insight into the selflessness of awareness, and then once more, inform us as a practice is, my phone. This simply of that experience of selfishness and Joseph we'll talk about. How I view the difference between those who has a practice and, in the end, the significant or lack thereof of that difference, but these are the the

If you want to understand- and I spelled out more clearly in my book- waking up any of this gets too confusing worthless start with my experience of doing the possible because, as you know, I spent several years and at least one year on retreat pray, this Burmese, this burmese style, the Poznan a very pure away without we haven't discovered, Zoltan teaching no, I didn't really have another model of how to practice. As many people do in practice. Mindfulness I started is virtually everyone does, with the possible exception of yourself. I started with a very clear sense of being a self being a subject who was now adopting this practice for reason, use of both intellectual interest and wanting to overcome the kinds of suffering that ourselves are prone. To cite you so I felt like I was the subject of my experience and now given this practice, which, as you gave us

about an hour ago starts with just strategically paying attention to all of one sensory experiencing start with a breath and then sensations the body and all is to pay attention clearly enough, so as to how certain kinds of insights over the one most interesting insight that is advertised is to discover that the self is an illusion that You'Re- not you, don't you? U! Dont, have this self at you thought you had and with that comes a kind of relief from all the problems of officer air too, but the issue is that you can practice. You can seem to practise mindfulness. As a strategy a self pain, strategic attention to experience, and in many cases go for weeks and months and years only in a very happy

hazard way experiencing this loss of cell. Frankly, it seems to me that that can have but even if one is have this seems you the zero experience, what you ve got all the with the progress and incite the lights go out. You come back. You have. This no wonder have a view of self say you no longer have a belief himself, but ones I informed thereafter not necessarily synonymous with feeling free of cell with his own teaching. It begins with not a practice. It begins with this insight into the selfishness of consciousness and unless you ve had less, you can have that insight yeah, she can't do. The practice is not a is not something to pay attention to. Apart from the selfishness, justice and once you ve had that incite, then every moment of practice is synonymous with selflessness. So my question to you is: is this

is the mindfulness it most people experience the stool list. Mindful of the strategy of paying attention. Not actually mindful of the EU just a way of Orient into the true my fulness of all arise when you can actually see that in the active, seeing there's just pure, seeing there's no sea air and sea and things seem so it s. A question is, is what most p while most of the time call mindfulness not Actually, the real thing just a way of getting people to hopefully discover the real thing over this, with this question, opens up the whole big discussion from various things. So first to say that. In the beginning of practice, whether it so Chin or for possible Even though we use those two terms, such as possible. To describe

the general orientation of practice. Just as you pointed out was so ten, but is also true. For parliament the foremost but the beginning practices or not, Actually doing so turnover possible, it's kind of either apply. The meetings or chin fascinating. Some recognition of. The nature of mind, selfless nature, but people now, a man s severally actually experienced it. But there they're in the vicinity I've been so. The practice is one of just again and again trying to come to an end. At a certain moment, people have that actual illustration, as you said, That's when such an really begins in a passenger, beginning stages

really, I'm not a possible, even though that's true we use for it at the beginning, That is really other development. It's basically some of the concentration practice accusing mindfulness to just the neck then be present moment at the moment. To build up certain level of concentration for passengers starts happening. Real the personal stones happening when there's enough momentum of both mindfulness and concentration, so that first, the at the start happening by itself, and so there is not sense of someone making an effort to do it its rolling along by itself and. The understanding in that in that. Rolling, along by itself mode

The impermanence of things arising passing is very clear that's really the beginning of a possible so that that's just a little back. To the beginning stages of both practices rags, except that description of the beginning In to my ear, articulated difference between the two paths that it is a target, there are none of that Are we getting to that? I just wanted to point out that the terms. We used to describe the practice proportionate and so can read in both cases have a preliminary except in the case of zilch him. There's no confusion Now, when the practice starts, references I'll be if, if you agreeing with me about or if you are suggesting that the true- from has only starts when the true might prove opossum. So my voice is the technique, but partner is the is the begins idea.

The technical. Yes, what we have is a culture of meditated. Now Michael incredibly well subscribed as a as a method of meditation. Many people think they're practicing mindfulness slash reply sooner nobody sitting in the only way that ended in a way that it is their dear back. That's equating those two terms with which it which is which is common. It is come, but that's that's that's in it, inaccurate and perhaps popular understanding, and that's why I'm making the point that, can be practising mindfulness, It's only at a certain stage of that that it becomes possible. Yes even though we use is the term the Panama ok about, and so that this disgusted at the heart of my question. So you're someone who has practised mindfulness to the point of a partner to you now you play your plane, the real game, but my question about the care

ones my from us at that point there is no law I want to get to that too. That I just wanted to set the date, for work of understanding the terminology of it, so at the I'm from us actually becomes the pass into practice. Comes to pass into practice and inside practice There is a very important stage of insight which very interesting Lee the term. Similar to his ocean term and for me self I'd spend an interesting exploration. Is it in some way related to experiences related or not, but invoke partner states age of insight is coal purification of view. And in certain it, as you know, the talk a lot of the view and clarifying the view.

So in the past Emma in this particular stage of insight purification view, There is enough momentum of mindfulness and concentration. So that the whole process is running along by itself and theirs The clear seeing the clear understanding that in every moment, all what's happening is a pair wise progression of knowing an object. That'll there's just does knowing about knowing of aside a sound the smell and that. It seems very clearly that. The knowing that's arising in this pair wise progression is all oh condition and impermanent. And so there is, profound and said

beginning understanding of the selfless nature of knowing of consciousness, and so from that- and this is not a moment. This is at this stage it's a flow. It's a flow of that experience will have an instrument, familiar to me from my partner, proud. As the difference, however, is that you're still talking about a wave scene, There is contingent upon momentum is contingent upon having built up the energy of practice on retreat, so you got enough concentration and you can really just yes, it is it. Is it half effort less? As you say you, you are then assumptions pushed from behind by all of the work you. This reason have put in what's different about the insight into selfishness, porn absorption, this or wood, which is synonymous with out in practice, is that is not good.

Saw contingent upon a good, and you didn't need no momentum. As you know, we just morning here we just got up by haven't had enough body. I've got no more aunt em we're just talking, but I but the thing that that is synonymous with with the insight is ocean. Practice is available in this it s less sap tattersall, but my question to you is: is that Really what mindfulness is, in your view of the partner Yes, I'm gonna tell you down into something of this system this whole conversation touches on a lot of interesting questions and points. So. Even though the way describe, and I had the same experience in such a practice that it's not dependent on momentum. But from my perspective,

at the moment, the empress this in champ is: stabilizing the recognition, yes, To me, I think I think that. Stabilization, Is really another word for momentum? Brett I would, I would agree with you there. I think that's the way you would stabilize it is to have momentum Yet Eliza whether there truly synonymous romantic enemy, you need concentration and you need continuity, but the, but the crucial difference from my point of view is it seems as as having practice rather than having had experiences of pass new momentum and were positive effort. Listeners on retreat

came away from that experience and, as I think many, if not most rapacity, Yogi Yogi's feeling that. Absolutely clear insight into selflessness is contingent upon. All of that machinery of effort and an end and momentum that, I can only have on retreats unless you ve been less. You ve had enough concentration over the course of the day and have been met, four hours and hours There's not a hell of a lot to notice in your workaday mindfulness that is truly profound. A truly synonymous with the with the mind of light well, have I just have some questions about that from two sides. From the zilch inside. Even though the recognition is aware, mobile in any moment, without this the ability which

from a momentum I experience both in doing practice and observe these people is that law likewise the moment of recognition. Few and far between because of the habit of mind letting distracted and so Even now,. It's always available in the moment. In fact, Two to manifest that understanding take momentum also it takes the build up. It depends on what you mean by manifest, because. If you mean manner the outward signs of a totally transfer

In person known those are attractive to other, not unknown, soda though so, then the question is what counts, as breakthrough into the wisdom. Emptiness or the wisdom of self selflessness. That makes a difference to the poor, What what what is, I would say how often. From the search engine how how Often one is recognising it. Yes, but also Butler Let's say in both cases as my fullest, both cases is Noticing you ve been lost in thought and then what you then noticed subsequent to noticing the thought disappear. So what can you do it baby? This is this true of every type of meditation bracken is your either lost in thought or Europe noticing what you should be noticing and in on practice. You're supposed to be noticing the mound of your mantra in visuals asian brackish was we noticing the thing your visualizing in loving kindness practice, you're supposed to be

in that moment reasserting. The well wishing to your object of matter and and feeling the feeling of of loving kindness in mind from his practice. It seems. You, I would guess ninety nine percent of Yogi is certainly seem to me for a very long time that what one day I'll turn live to the unenlightened. For the unenlightened yogi is to notice phenomena there's nothing to notice, but the evidence of your own on enlightenment and that you, know you're noticing, noticing the language of no less than a year. Have you ve got the practices such as living opponent disparage the the difference is without in the only thing you're supposed to notice

thing. What use is the true taste of the your mindfulness at that moment. Is that? one that there is no self centre to what or the experience happens, a b and to that the experience, no matter how pain really made for an experience of knowledge and experience of anger. Whatever it is, does not change consciousness, passionate, actually isn't harmed by what ever crappy experience. You were just having dualistic a moment ago before your mindful the moment. You actually pay attention. There's just consciousness in the energy of his expression and and therefore, in that moment, anger enjoy, are equalized and so that the suffering component to My points would be. A remedy is also cancelled. So this there's no one to suffer entered in fact, in some sense, no suffering. That is not to say that the the unpleasant. Sensation has to do,

peering at moments, but it doesn't count in the same way it did a moment ago. Some, question to you is that you can take as long as you want trying to Heaven along it. Get an answer is that really would mindfulness just is, and most people take a very long time to discover what you just described in turn reserved The equal of experience through this ocean recognition you could have, in describing the function of mountains, they could for example, when one is mindful of any unpleasant. Whether it's an unpleasant emotion, unpleasant physical sensation. In a moment, the mind is not affected. The aim is not reactive. It is in that place of simple awareness of that. And so the

In the way you described it, I could have been describing the experts. Of mindfulness those of those conditions MR stand, this point is a very important point, so it is true to say from your perspective that if You are being mindful of sadness and in that moment sadness is still a problem. That's not true Michael Mrs lifeless contains its own equanimity. You you have to get it. If you can and two seconds of truly be mindful. Those are gonna, be too Hence our relief, absolutely suffering, absolutely ok, that's it so that that's, I think, that's poorly understood and their many many people who practise mindfulness. And are not aware of that kind of internal standard where it it's the leave may be eventual

they may feel a little bit better, but there's there's a subtle corruption that their practising Michael as one in order to change the experience to get rid of the sad pittance known. That's what I call a minute talk a lot about this in the future Collect in order to mind when watching were being something in order for something to happen in one make it go away in order to have it standard or whatever the to mind, is not mindfulness right. That's just a kind of grasping now and its desire and aversion So long as this is lungs, this his desire and aversion in the mind relative to the experience- it's not mindfulness, mindful your description, I resonated completely fat, As mindfulness accept, except that the crew, a crucial feature of my description and in my experience is

the non do all ok, so I've it is yes, the magical I wanna get. I wanna get us. The so. I haven't ass this before this particular way. So I'm gonna sit with the outcomes out. Why the things that's not emphasised a lot in the personal below beginning to more and more because it actually in the teachings but in the way it's been taught it hasn't been emphasised. In those times. When one is experiencing the impermanence or the took up the UN's It is vital to ensure the selflessness. We can be emphasising two different aspects of it. We

we can be emphasising. The scene of the impermanence. Yeah that things are arising in passing and so that still object oriented, or the the selflessness of it self was set up floor phenomena of the flower phenomena, including including consciousness, but but the phenomena will be more predominant, read it. Very interesting and I've been working with this more and more now, it's equally possible to pay attention. To the nature of the quality of the mind at those times wouldn't seeing impermanence and This is a very busy teaching in politics it's in seeing. Impermanence.

The mind doesn't cling, when it doesn't cling its expression of different ways in seeing her since the mine becomes disenchanted, becomes disenchanted from the grasping in the disenchantment, it becomes dispassionate, In the discussion it, let's go in the letting go this freedom so that's sequence, its thoughts with the awareness of the object being permanent, but it turns out tension back to the Quan, three of the mind as it seeing the permanence and mats where that not emphasised so much hasn't been. Not even hearing it emphasised in the litany you just gave, and this has always been

gripe of mine that they are not the selflessness that that one realizes partner has always seemed to me to be by virtue of a nature impairment so that it is because everything is changing that one extrapolate not by thinking about it, but but that one notices that there is actually nothing that could be a self because there's the soonest is full ungovernable flow, but the selflessness of Zog ten has nothing to do with a permanent. It has to do with seen its as do. The stately felt centre that was yourself drop out of consciousness, said that here are three of that, so you might not be noticing change within clarity at all, and yet there is no right, but I think that So one can one can come to the eggs one him come to the recognition and experience of selflessness, indifferent lakes and.

And when we see that it makes any difference, because in one way or another, whether you're, looking at the nature of mind itself, buzzing selfless nature, because because phenomena or phenomenon always brings. This is not this. Does take any. This doesn't take. A particular momentum, to see if the mind is, if the mind tunes in the changing nature. That's always there is always present. That's another way of it's another doorway into selfishness, this is. A doorway doesn't seem to be now I emphasise, but nobody not even acknowledged in the past, in a traditional direct mobbed, Direct mindfulness himself was well out her. That has nothing to do with looking at

I wouldn't say that, because for some people their understanding and end these people the strong wisdom active mind the cell This aspect will the world's most important for other people. It is the aim The information that can be most important thing the function of both the mind: that's not grasping button. So that's the point of it all. And so I dont see that it matters very much wish of the characteristics- one sees us predominant in. So many of these, for example, with money Energy, for example, he very much emphasise the empty nature of phenomena. You know so anything, that's. Why resonated so much because much that

Suited my office, my own development and experience Open data emphasise the Duke aspect which accomplish resulted in the letting go Holding on this one other point I wanted to get to him in sequence, enough to make the connection. One of the reasons the recognition of that selfless empty. Quality of mind may not be this song in the passing the tradition as much as it is in the Sol Trans Edition right from the beginning. Is that. It goes back to this notion of certain experiences, uprooting the view of self, and I think

Some teachers, it's that experience of having the funds be uprooted, which is the main focus of the teaching, and so the experiences along the way they are not necessarily emphasised, because because the emphasis with these teachers is to accomplish that up. So they may not be pointing out all along the way? Oh look We really if continuity of my phone, this is the only tool, needs to travel the path towards these various landmarks. Whether there is significant as one thinks or not that if you get a good practice and in under them the burmese partner, you just get that my

from this rolling along him and that's what you need to do if mindfulness of a nata selflessness is just as good an object of mine from us as any other sort of Michaelmas. It's not. I know that not a choice between the two paths, you could be mindful you can you can you can recognise that there's no self very early on be mindful of that centralists open nature of consciousness. Have that be your continuity of models, and presumably that would be all you would need to have these subsequent experiences if, in fact, there There are another, not that's true, but but, as I said depending on a person velocipede so quick, there is there any reason to think that that might not be true, Is it possible in your mind, that a certain style of mindfulness I'm sick

certain base of my more certain sensory object, as opposed to other objects, is better for having these zero experiences of of cessation I think it's very individual dependent depending on the particular factors which are strong enough person, one or another, salient features of phenomena. Be the most effective path, so for someone who is prey disposed to to into impermanence or turning into Duca. Didn't suffering to try to forces emissions into the atmosphere. Category you know as being handed the soul or only or best way of coming to

freedom from grasping freedom from clinging than that that made that may not be the most effective path for them, but anything is, in my view. The difference is talking about the suffering of the hand of suffering, the different is so extraordinary you to take it to walk part back to party store that you told when you were. Practicing go anchor and will do in the body scanning and had initially have this experience of Sublime body of life, no pain and then came back and you have the dead body of twisted steel and were too. To get back into the practice and literally couldn't continue with that bracket because it was so frustrating out its hand like that, was your experience and as of two years, fraught with the effort trying be mindful of a foot

fear, a phenomenon that was just in some sense, a condition of of suffering me if you could have said you're being mindful of Duca and that in this situation, but you are having a very fast red time as a yogi, because I wasn't being mindful. Ok sets out to the two things to say, but I wonder at the true, my father and mother, you had an agenda gradually strong agenda right, but the fact that you, had that agenda was understandable, given the way the teaching was framed. In my view, you half yes? It is very hard not to have that agenda, and that's that liability of that style of practice- and I think that I believe he is there the liability on the others, silent on the social side, which we can talk about we haven't talked about law really, but the liability of the goal oriented and a model of get as much mindfulness you as you can on on what

or you can notice- is that there is a sense that you have do that that freedom is elsewhere, that your tie, your here, you're trying to get a slap up to that but the mountain, and you are at the bottom and an end. All you can notices the fact that you are somewhat the bottom of the mountain and you got- and you have to you- have to keep working on this project. The difference between that and being able to just cut through two selflessness and Billy dropped it drop any obvious effort method. That's that's the thing you can be it. The question when does it become effortless doesn't have to become effortless by virtue of momentum and often the practice in on its life of its own and you're just noticing effortlessly. Or can you notice that every true instant of Wariness is, and is why, in indulging, they talk about practising the goal. Was the pad in Myspace has not false advertising, because even

if you're going to only get us get a second mindfulness in every hour that there's a difference between that? Second, obviously being the goal of the second being a strategy to to reach some goal. That is, on the other side of this body of twister, not I'm very I really don't see important, none on, as you say it. Each each tradition has, I see its own strength and its own potential pitfalls an end tradition, it becomes of his when one is practised and fallen into the pit what they are in The past practice. The danger is that, as I fell, interview them really practising with an agenda, I think that's that point, I was not getting proper guidance, but I think

when I finally came to an acceptance of just what was happening but but this is a little subtler than that of a more insidious, because proper one is opera guidance when the view is you really do need to get to the top of the mountain, you need so you're, not at the top of the mountain ass you haven't. Had the cessation experience it set, that's no different, then saying you need to get to stability it it, but it is different because in each moment in which says it moment. I could say how do you know you're, not stable wrangle, but but and in any flat moment it that the moment of mindfulness about precipitous gonna precipitate? Could a moment of freedom. But it's not the same thing association is not the same thing it because you know you're, not you know, the lights are still on You haven't gotten that you have a goal. You ain't, you have a goal now, but there is a difference between this.

There is. There are so many different aspects of this parliamentary term to say, because I will I wanna hit. Many different points, Norma first, just Canada stepped back looking at those or change edition which obviously the factors in tatters: hugely beneficial, I've learned a lot from the Actors and incorporated a lot into pessimism I am not at all kind of hostile not not only not hustle evidence like Mr Bonde armor, but when you look at the great so TAT S. They have done. Years of preliminary practices and retrain support of practices in twenty years in a cave. So it's not that

and I must ingesting that their retreat is unnecessary in and so before. We begin, spare use and those of the pain of having a spell it allows. One of the obvious pitfalls of emphasising on duality emphasizing and there's nowhere to go and nothing to get too and there's no goal is that per person can be left with a sense. That does nothing to do with no reason. The crackers thing has been written alive, just thinking about that either Spend the lives just living a very ordinary life doing all things I wanted to do anyway in clinging to to all their pleasures and and learning from other pan or they're going to develop a concept that just believing that everything? Yes exactly is enough exactly an that's, obviously delusional. So, yes, on his own inside you see people attachment emptiness, wrap it the view that, as is, is barring the door real real breakthrough?

to stabilize yes, experience at which takes a tremendous amount of, if not, effort, seeming effort, because These people spend years on retreat doing nothing, but meditate net says so but it's the elevator got it. That's on the menu of you. If you do recognise the major roads, the empty nature, Carter, red, ok, going back to come back to the were once from that, from that point of pure occasion of you one has really seen that the whole process is just knowing an object arising, peasants all happening by itself. There there. Is there is an effort to get to that point? From that point, Even though one can be pulled out of it, by as I was with China,

In fact, my body of light is not practising in the correct way, but from that point If one is an alignment with Burma, from this actually means. Then even though there a goal, one has dropped back, into the unfolding process has there's not a sense of o not there yet You know and struggle and that's always available yeah. What number that always available because I've I've been that person whose cycle back and forth from retreat in back into life. A retreat. Well, it hasn't been stabilize. Then, sir I've I've expense, since some of that, but also experience times. When that's that's just there. That's always there but it's always accessible. It always there when you're not on retreat,

this is a valid synonymous with your mind was yes, yes, and that's a kind of stabilizing right. Which is similar to the stabilizing of the recognition nights Does not this one does not to build up the momentum to get there again right, it's what's their house at a case. If he could, then what you're describing is a level of key, concentration, so they will say you're not on retreat and you're only set sit for a half hour and and you close your eyes. You start focusing on the breath What are those that open awareness awareness if Europe, If you are. Nowhere near as concentrated as you, you are in the best sitting of your longest retreat, but both There's a difference between the halving the momentum, not them concentration, and not Mama momentum is a retreat.

Ike phenomenon that was contingent upon being seriously concentrated yeah. But what what I'm saying is that at a certain point, even in your daily offer tree? Yes, Europe, your experiences of sitting, yes, one of being concentrated in trade enough to have it. Same here: Assyria, yes, and that to me that's kind of an interesting development aid has been in the partner because that the kind of stabilizing you, don't look struggling to get any place, you just there in and it's just, it's just unfolding and that's that really how it is now does not surprising to me I'm trying to get at what is what is surprising to me, hear the it's not because it the moment that momentum has something to do with many moments together what you can experience at time. Acts is, in some sense conditioned by what you experienced

time ex minus one or Ex MIDAS too. You know that it is its network, but momentum is and if you are, if you have been lost for in thought, for five minutes, if such a delusional parents could ever happened to you or your asleep, and remain, and you wake up. The question is: what can this these next two seconds- the alike and there's a sense in the partner that for those next two seconds, to really deliver the goods to be really like the best two seconds on a retreat Something has to be unusual. You spend a lot of time at the Poznan noticing. Sense If phenomenon with increasing apparent depth and subtlety, everything sort happen very fast at points and thing disappear and things that were they need, or normally there an inch. Of course, awareness are no longer there the boundaries. Your body, whatever things are done, Four things are not truly ordinary. They can be.

As an ordinary mindfulness of just a truly ordinary sensation, just noticed, doesn't tastes like the data or does it does, but from it from this, the soaked inside That's the point that has to be grass, but in order to even feel like you're, your view can start as emphasis so much from the beginning that there is there is no gap. Freedom is right on there's, no death is no suddenly the changes in the pyrotechnics of Meditate you don't mean anything, but but that was that that is a psychological consequence. It unthinkable to be yogi who is training about. To the body of light in that sense may like to spend too, here trying to how you have could you do that from this oceanside?

having been given the zilch and logic of brows know that that is a particular potential pitfall of the past. But, as you said so, ten has its own potential pitfalls threat to be different kept within Zog Chin they're, not those people, criticized enough that they're they're not really moved that the Real pitfall is the second evader vedantic version of Zilch and where were you too in in the and the talking school of non duality where you do you're sitting was I'm one is talking about non duality, Anders there's nothing, Do you really know there? There are other pitfalls in action. Look at his side, the one but. I don't think this pitfall in the past I mean, I think. For example, if I had been practising with open data,

that would have got new path. Ethics, We quickly, and I had many examples of that where he would just see, but I bet you must you have, you must have had examples of practicing. Striving in your practice would under open data and getting into a very goal, oriented effort full and paint, therefore painful attempt to get somewhere with it. Agnes, because I know what I like to sit with open data and that he that's come out of his pours out every day. I heard I heard him say to some one and, as you know, with it, with its Braxton with open data, you could hear the interviews with other yogi is either of you before you and interview after you, as your creek, another room and death summit he would say if he was a drill. Sorry effort, but also It is very hard to because.

I can't I had another was it was. You is your story or whether I overheard this with another yogi, but what he said It's a pity. You dont have more courage. What are you? What are you know? He said something like her You have any pride in being a man but one of the interesting things that I came to free shaded about him was I know I saw this over time- wasn't immediately apparent that he would often be saying this. Of outrageous things, would keep doing it, till? There was no longer a reaction. In my mind, and as soon as I got to a place of lightness and Verizon we do. It was the abbot. Am I so then- and there were few very striking examples. As soon as I stopped react

thing to his trying to push my buttons. He stopped doing it and and actually the whole relationship and style of his teaching changed so in some way not to say he never. Can emphasise the striving in a lot, but it's not that take everything on face value when you, when you see the approach, of differently, because sometimes they doing things, as is four means to get people to unhook, and that was just my experience with him the opposite. I knew his reputation. I heard the home with you what other people and I was I was practicing, M for mode, just because I was very or at that point. But his direct communication to me was much he's. Just Sweet of man was a very encouraging and also problem

radically? He conveyed, at the end of your near the end of one of those two month, retreat with him. Clearly to his eye, and my I was in the estate of Aqua nimitti, wherever they would just humming along fine and heap, then he said something like well. If you know, if you just keep doing everything in this way and something very interesting, it may happen for you in the enthusiasts talking about those. Remember you so I know What it's like to be practising effort. Firstly to have it all seemed rain Venus very if, if you could just have made, if you could have told me, this is what your mind is gonna be like for the rest of your life. I would say: ok ads probably good enough, but with this feels enlightened dealers feels like there's no suffering the Ladys great IRAN noticing everything. I've concentrated no effort, but still I was waiting for something to happen on some all the other in all the other moments that are not be mindful, and all of that

Very rarefied awareness was clearly a contingent upon being on retreat. Meditating eighteen hours a day and know that was at that time. It was not only I wanna get in traffic three months later, when I back the living my life and that that duality there was about what I'm saying is dead. There is that experience, and that's highlighted because of The importance given to this notion of approving the fund, which is a different matter from one That's a different model, but given the importance, within within this parliament tradition or the burmese of the subverting. That's understandable. That can be there, and I can also come to a place in the past where one drops in

that so that it's not dependent. On those rarefied conditions, so that is the correct. The ordinary character in my yes one one of the ways that I've been teaching us away of directing people. To the ordinary newness of selflessness that, where it's not pendant on momentum Is in the simplicity of just move it moving ones on moving the leg and one of those one of this, the methods I've been using. Ray framing it we framing me sperience in the passive voice. So, for example, moving on And generally, even if one is not actually means,

realising the words, as you have pointed out, the common way of perceiving it is I'm moving my arm or I'm knowing the movement and that's the active, the active voice in English, but into the passive voice, move being known movement being known in the passive voice, construction, there's no subject so just so, just the switch of language, and I found. Just doing that in the simplest movement one, is right there in the experience of the selflessness of the whole practice selfless, because his ass pointing to the knowing its just enough in the frame? is sensations being known. It brings in knowing equal to the sensation right, but you will, but don't you do not think that is contingent upon

a person already having this recognition of selfishness. Clearly, someone could still just have. This thought they could had adopted is a monster movement being known, not not now airbases language and now, if it does it, if it's just languid again it's it's difference between languages, a description and languages and instruction crap and and I'm not saying that everybody will immediately get the instruction. But it's not that complicated. When people have oh these things are being known moment if the moment and right there is one is in that state of selfless awareness, that's not dependent on rarefied conditions. So I think stability of that. Depends on a lot of factors ends com contrition being one of them having

its concentration means on destructiveness, so the more Concentration is divine. Left in the mind. No one. Is there as a quality of the mind the most Paypal little bit the mine we'll get distracted less often, so I think within the personal it's not I grant you that is not always taught this way because of the importance given to that moment of uprooting here, and so it's not often emphasised that. It's right here, but this part of what has been interested me in this last year's is to emphasise this aspect and their them. This is just one example of. What can be done there There are other ways that to the immediacy of it. I just want to. But what was the talk?

this time and this one other point just want to make about one of the potential pitfalls of XO. For me is very interesting, and it actually points to some difference in Tibetan Buddhism. I mean it highlights just in to me a very interesting difference of experience in description. It was, as you know this, ouch and the nature of mind is described as the union of clarity in emptiness or awareness in emptiness and the inseparable unity of them, People can recognize. The awareness aspect with necessarily a full recognition of its empty aspect.

Because the EU, as subtle as awareness, is that aspect is more obvious than his empty aspect, which is even more? Why actually at that? I just someone just just anything which clarify this at emptiness, because obviously most people will say this: no we're talking about it, but it actually is not quite the same thing as. Selfishness and with no. No, no, no. No, it's not Eric aid, for it covers healthier. Yes, area doesn't go european area now emptiness and- and I love this- aspect might have brought a definition of a person stop working but often say look for the mind and can find it and then not finding is finding right, and so it's that on fine debility with which we is the experience of its emptiness. That can't be found

and that's all there is citizen teachings which which point to the same thing, or are you in danger, forgetting what you're Will you now want to go? I think what it unpack emptiness a lot more, but we can do it after they stood after dispute within the Tibetans, schools, They talk about it, the second turning the third turning is that a lot of historic development of Tibetan Buddhism, but FR in schools. Emphasise remit criticism of XO chain from some of the other Tibetans? Schools is that. They feel the danger is in some way: reifying awareness, now from sojourn perspective, the emphasising no it's empty, but from other schools, they

More emphasis to the emptiness aspect: the new era, which is this. Ten criticism them, so we just The main points that these two aspects. The empty aspect, and the awareness aspect, and the inseparable any of them. That's the key. Without that one is not practising searching and The danger of recognising awareness with out Without necessarily having the deep real position of the empty aspect and so I hear owed. Not necessarily with surgeon. He put it in general and spiritual scene and even within some broader schools. Phrases like make home of awareness. Justin

some way in which awareness becomes a thing, even in its most refined and even non dual awareness, that phrase to me yes and in its in depth of correct understanding. It incorporates, The realisation of emptiness yeah, but it very easy. I feel to miss that point and so one day at once awareness, this space it's open its non dual. What happens now? door, for me really is the most important conceptual hook here, because it non. Do for me, if you actually get it cover, selflessness, covers emptiness, possibly use that word and obviously not get it, but the then the non duality is the loss of this house object while the duality that one

negating subject, object perception to lose the sense of being the subject, as opposed to the object, is an insight into selflessness himself. Isn't there right you can't you look for the self. I can't find it there's just awareness laughed, but will you find the absence of the cell here But but the other featured emptiness is that it's not just that the self isn't there. It's that everything that seems to be there is of It's just an expression of costs is not that consciousness has all of these objects that are really object as oil. It there's just this ways paradoxical condition of. It's all consciousness and its forms the bounds. Between one thing or another is purely conceptual such incidents that nothing is happening. The best Analogy to come out of the teachings, I think, is that of em light in a mirror, Hold a mere up to a battlefield, mean a war sequence and

a lot seems to be happening in the lot is happening, obviously in the world, but in the mirror billing it's like all over again, you can see everything. Clearly, nothing has really happened. Jetsam, yes, so that is an analogy that captures this not a word also, while the other of everything seeming to happen, and yet some little, nothing is in fact happening, but I think that and the condition of there being no centre to that experience is that, that makes the same I of the nothing really happening. I took two comments about this. One is this: this is a rejoinder to your criticism of a passenger Oh, it's pending, uncertain rare, fried condition resident so Ok, given that description,

how often is one living in that experience for zilch and practitioners. The geese, description you just described but nobody very rare nobody who actually was so. The question is: how long does it take? What will happen? stability? You need for that taste of dream, like quality or the mirror, like quality of experience, to be pressed no one can see it in a moment. Yes, ok, but but not, but but in terms of amateur one's life is spending there s not a minuscule meet with meat is killed, so so it in terms of the actual. Sperience sing, the fruit of these various practices.

I dont see much difference. Note that that's what I would challenge, because it is the difference. Is there? Isn't it is the difference between feeling that one can break through to the to the goal what were they call you worse than those that only I that is evidence that, practically speaking in terms of freedom of mind in a life. So it's true I'll cut the crap the path is the goal in the goal is the path but it is an arguably true and only only on one map, as opposed to the other milliner, because, as I was saying just now, and for those giving before. I think it's possible It's not always taught this because of the emphasis on that matter. Brooding, but

I've been taking much more interested in teaching the parcel from them perspective venom that it's right here that that that Sir Phyllis understanding and then. And really recognition of that quality the nature mind moment can can be right here. So I was concerned, So just going back to Europe, what you said is the as one of the aspects of it it is a really important. I tend to more emphasis to the unfair debility aspect and butter. In both are important but I see even in your description of just in every way described it. This still is the potential for being idea

to fight with that whole with you well description and so, there has to be something without that's. Why, If you like, none duality is the crew low because they could not go. There is nothing to be identified with s wise, not to analyze. Not that's why I'm oneness, you wouldn't say a oneness of because It's very easy, the message that this is also the criticism of the debate, on this side of things: wages rather than Talk about non dwell, they were or selfishness you just guys, myself, capital ever and its dsl arose the car is very consciousness and then you'll have deeper by telling you last thing that gave rise to the universe. This of. Their truly be no centre, then what remains said celebrate what you called the world. That to me is when I think of

different kinds. This goes back. Using the term oneness, there's a oneness that comes from being one and is a one this that the result of zero where it, which is what you're saying when, when there's no set when there's no sense of self that everything is left. You haven't, got a lap. Yes still live a bottle, and I'm totally agreement with that that's no danger, it'll be engine to listen to and see if it has. Have even the remotest interest to anybody up is obviously when questioned areas letter so esoteric, leave us with an audit of four people bored. I hope we will see us now and again,

Thank you for doing it with your you. What you're now on record on rusted- maybe you maybe said many things before, but I have a big hard to find them all in one who still here? If you want to know more about Joseph Work, you can go to the website of his Adaptation Centre, which is the inside meditation. Decided. A website is Dharuma DOT, Org and damn near, several books, the first of which, with the experience of insight, is a very clear articulation of how you practice proposed Non retreat and he has several other books beyond that. One Dharuma Bein, perhaps most relevant to this discussion. Would you say to Us- perhaps the less of being a little. The combination of the last one, it was my fulness, my practical guide, to awaken him. So I You get that you enjoy arm our back and forth here. That's a good way to subsidize it. Thank you just

this was one if you find it, Punkahs viable. There are many ways you can support. It you can review it on Itunes or sticker. Whoever happens to listen to it. You can share and on social media with your friends you can buy about her, discuss it on your own podcast or even supported directly anything. Do this by subscribing, through my website, at SAM Harris DOT, Org you'll find subscriber only content which includes my ask me anything episodes he also get. Says to advance tickets to my life events as well, Sir in video of some of these events, and yet to get to hear the bonus questions from many of these interviews, these things and more you'll find on my website, has SAM Harris dot Org. Thank you for your support of the show.