In this episode of the Making Sense podcast, Sam Harris talks to economist Glenn C. Loury about racism, police violence, the Black Lives Matter movement, and related topics.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ok or their variety of housekeeping issues. I could engage at the start of this episode. Isis
thus released a fairly amazing document entitled why we
he too, and why we fight you mistress bizarre. It is as though
been watching my skirmishes with obscurantists who deny the religion.
Jihadism, and I just thought enough is enough. I wish I were just going to close every loophole that people like Scott at ran and Karen Armstrong and Robert Pape and Noam Chomsky, and all these other
fabulous on this issue seem to find in their desperate attempts to implicate every
other than our heartfelt religious beliefs that's what they did. They just spelled out with utter clarity, their motivations for doing what they do, but I might just do it
Shepard Podcast. They are because I'd rather not to lay the conversation going to bring you today, which strikes me as especially urgent, so I'm just going to pivot directly to today's guest
As always, if you like what I'm doing on the podcast, you can support this work at SAM Harris DOT, Orgy Ford, Slash, support, Anderson
It is in fact, what makes conversations like this possible is podcast ad free and am happy to keep it that
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I'll, be speaking with Glenn Lowry. Clan is the Merton Peace stores, professor of Social Sciences and professor of economics. It Brown University he's taught previously at Boston and Harvard and northwestern
and the University of Michigan. He holds a ba and mathematics from Northwestern in a Phd in economics from MIT he's, a fellow of the
I can academy of arts and Sciences a forum.
A Guggenheim fellowship recipient. He has published widely and has written several books that are willing to on my boy
ugh, I discovered Glenn through his blogging, has tv podcast
Or he's been having some extraordinarily candid and clarifying conversations about rays and racism with the linguist John MC from Colombia
I highly recommend you check out glens podcast on blogging heads tv again up, provide a link to that on my website and
the purpose of my conversation with him today was to dive headlong into these controversial waters of race and racism and violence in America. As though my work,
controversial enough already, but I've been wanting to do this for a while, because these issues are just so consequential and politically divisive
but I ve been worried about doing this. For obvious reasons. I raise the topic in my podcast with kneeled across Thyssen, if you recall, but he did want to touch it, which I understand
until the time was right away and on these issues personally
but for some reason I've been feeling like the time is right. For me.
Just really been bothering me that so much of what I hear about race and violence, America doesn't make any sense
and the fact that I've been worried about speaking about these issues in public was also bothering me. In fact, the implications of speaking about race, in particular, cause me to cancel a book contract I had last year
It just seemed like too much of a liability, but I have since stiffened my spine
and I was left wondering who I could talk to about these things. I goal has been too far
and an african american intellectual who could really get into the details with me, but who I could also trust to have a truly rational conversation
I wouldn't be contaminated by identity politics, as you probably into it. I think identity. Politics are just poison unless your identity at this point is homo sapiens.
But I certainly found what I was looking foreign Glenn. He is just so good on these topics. As you'll hear you spend it
amount of time giving a counterpoint to his positions on each topic,
steal, my name rather than straw man in the views of his opponents. Anyway,
On this conversation extremely helpful, I felt like London, I could have gone
for much longer and many thanks to plan for being so generous with his time. If you find this conversation is useful
I encourage you to spreading around and follow glance on twitter ads
De l e and an l, oh you are why, and please tell me, you appreciate what he's doing again check out his podcast on blogging heads, dot, tv and now again,
Few Glenn Lowry.
I'm here with Glenn Lowry, gland thanks for coming on the pot gas sand. My pleasure, oh, was not really been excited about having this conversation, I think, probably irrationally so because the topics were going to cover
race and racism and police violence really can't help but bring us some measure of grief. So thank you for doing this
I think most grateful come my way probably, but I had first one
say that you're Pon podcast that you'd
one blogging heads tv, especially the ones I've seen
You ve done with John Mc Warder, whom I also
We admire I've gotta to that doesn't respond fantastic in and you guys are just
so rare to hear too people talk about these topics honestly, so I just want to appoint people in the direction of those podcast.
And great stand today, can I tell you all said there? That's the Glen show at blogging heads that tv there.
You referred to and dumb all viewers are listeners. I welcome yeah yeah upon a link to your page shoe where I am
this on my blog, so people can find that link just it.
Start a song. What what I'm noticing now and is really as though, for the first time
so I ve been in the last year or so is it there's a culture of censorship and identity, politics and a kind of-
addiction to being outraged at any and a resort
two outrage in place of reasoned argument, especially among young people. That is just making it impossible to have productive conversations on important top
x, and this is happening on topics other than race. Of course, as you know, this happens on religion and terror,
I'm engender, but race is obviously one of those hot spots and from what I've seen it.
You ve been illuminating. This topic on your show
the way. This really unusual, unjust, cutting through confusion like a lasers,
it really is great, be talking you idiot,
I appreciate it yeah I I
one of my motivations and John, the can speak for himself. But I think this will apply to him too
is that, in the face of this situation, I just got to describe
being addiction to outrage, that's that's an artful way of putting it
Other traders, oh, I don't know
moral, certitude and intolerance. As argument that doesn't check the right back,
isn't that in the face of that, because I could
so much about these questions of race and
Equality and justice, as I say, really come
In the end, the citizens are, models are pushed back again and
the trial and and and and you know, all contempt express toward me, don't I'm just ten felt compelled to keep you know
keep challenging keep raising questions, keep asking
since you know an
so I don't know. I'm not sure I got a gun.
Any kind of viceroy girl. You know celebration for doing it. It just seems like the right thing to do, but that's so that's a big part. My motivation,
So before we dive into this topic, perhaps you can just say a few words about your background.
And just your UK areas of focus. Intellectually, what how do you describe? What
You do in general, ok, so I'm a professor of economics here at Brown, university and Providence, Rhode, island I've been here for ten years. I've done
economics at a number of other universities are hazards in the nineteen eighties. All Boston,
diversity in the ninety. Nine is a quantitative soldiers.
Scientist. I was trained at MIT
in the seventies, such a phd in economics there, and so much of my early career focused on
all mathematical modeling, of various economic processes in the labour market in industry,
organization firms, competition, research and development, natural resource economics, economic zones.
Invention and exploration things of this kind game theory. I answer me
economic system I became
professor at the Trinity School government at Harvard and got very much
stayed in public policy. After taking up that poles
and began writing essays and reviews and com.
And territories on issues of race in the United States, particularly and was a
Reagan. Conservatives during the nineteen eighty is quite aware too, for it ask an American
moved away from their political identity toward the center of the spectrum, a bit.
That figure myself now as a kind of central
There may be mildly right of Centre Democrat
not an identity that I clearly with any particular here now: intensity yeah
also any obviously your background, both in mathematics and statistics on and social science makes. You really perfectly well placed to have the kind of conversation we're gonna have
wanting to talk about race and racism for awhile, because it is a topic of stress such huge consequences and is a topic that again a tree.
A fair amount of logical and moral confusion which renders people unable to to reason with with each other- and this is just this- is not a problem just across racial lie
and is not just a problem in public or frankly, I have white friends who I find. I can't have this conversation with because they become so emotionally hijacked
and they don't realize from my point of view, they don't really
and almost everything that is coming out of their mouths? Doesn't
a moral or logical or historical or psychological sense, and this really worries me because you get this
I view the maintenance of civilization and and our moral progress as a species really, as as a sequence of successful conversations dioxide this many times before it
pod Gaston and in writing. It seems to me that we we live in perpetual choice between conversation and violence are just as a species, so
see conversations reliably fail like this. I start to get worried and Ivan
wanting to talk about raising adjusts, mistress the contacts of how I set up this conversation. I noticed the conversations you
then having with John Mc Water, and I realized tat. I had met John at TED Conference, so I got in touch with him in and he suggested
speak with you, and so you say you are my Virgil who's going to guide me through this wilderness of error and again, thank you for agreeing to do this one up to the task here
It's a tall order action and I guess a final point:
Mary point. I feel the need to offer a disclaimer up front because
I think you and I are going to agree about many things and a little worried about this, because, because my staking out some of these positions as a white guy is going to rub
many of our listeners the wrong way, and I and I really don't want to be in a defensive crouch as we have this conversation. So I think I should just acknowledge up front a couple of things at that should be obvious. Any
It be obvious that I would acknowledge them, and the first suggests that the history of racism in the- U S has has obviously been horrific right, seems be no sane person
could doubt that- and there is no doubt that racism remains a problem in our society and just how big a problem is something that I want us to discuss. But I know I can check my privilege at the outset,
here. I have no doubt that I have reaped many advantages from being white and I have no idea what it's like to grow
the black man in our society is so it. So I get that I dont get it and
if there is any way in which my not getting it seems relevant to the issues were about to touch. I certainly hope your point that out to me, but ass, we drive towards points that many of our lives
yours will find fairly incendiary, especially coming from a white guy. I just I just have to make it clear that it.
Obvious how horrible white racism and its consequences have been in the past, and I am fully prepared to believe that the ship
no of slavery and Jim Crow still hangs over our society to a degree
I don't understand you anyway,
certainly not from my first person experience. But my goal in this conversation is to get an accurate picture of race and racism and police violence as it occurs now, so that we can think about how to move forward. So I just wanted to erect that bulwark. However, in
actual. It will prove to be because I have no doubt that we're about to say something that will lend itself to selective quotation, and I have now learned through rather cruel experience as some people listen to this podcast. Just for the pleasure of
holding me out of context and misleading way. So that's what this caviar, which may do me. No
what's so ever I just wanna. I want to throw that up before we dive into into the details. I was just
going to come back, I think
carry out, is well taken,
as far as it goes- and
one of you I would say, but it's such a pity
that is necessary
will. You make that kind of elaborate. Ah, you know a pre emptive all moons here, all that
it bespeaks how all closed.
Tortured is the environment in which we are having
conversation I mean I'm black- I am
Anybody is and grew up on the south side of Chicago in the nineteen. Fifty seven nineteen sixty from a working class background
I have had many a rainy and with american racism, all you know all across the board and dissent
and people who get slaves in the United States. On the other hand,
said here in the year two thousand. Sixteen,
and sixty three is a century and a half in when the press.
Jim Crow segregation is a distant memory,
how to say, no bombings about the stepped down, having served to terms winning Constable national elections to the highest office in the web?
commissioners of the police, in many of the cities in which police black
Regulations are most troubled are themselves african. American, as often are the administrative offices running the governor
of cities on we're fifty years past me
and said to the onset of the summit of action
This is not nineteen. Ten nineteen sit
de or nineteen eighty five. This is the year twenty six tee and
the idea that white privilege is such a
Staying on the country
in otherwise rational and intelligent person is to be right.
To give an elaborate preamble befitting a conversation,
a race relations in this country that the benefit of the doubt or the EU
the willingness to hear something that one doesn't agree with without impeding invidious motives to the person whose express my view is so rapid that
those like yourselves new, saw in fact apologise in advance for having an opinion. Why that's that's awful, that's poisonous, that's good!
So that's just Glinda responding often I don't know how they leave me in the
of some of your view is all I want to take what I've set out a context as well as ran financing Niels. I agree with you, but unfortunately I think it's still is now
sorry, because again, even my conversations in private suggests to me that this just this topic,
still radioactive, that it's just very difficult for people to even hear what is being said, much less Tracy implications. So I want to start start. We just very simple question, a deceptively simple question and just asked you: what is racism?
this is not necessarily a scientifically precise response. This is this a more off the cuff response. I would
it is a very content.
Or a devaluation of the
all humanity of another in virtue of Zaire.
Presumed racial identity,
racism is the all.
Suspension of national faculty. It say
this week the arts
interrogation all perception,
was the unfitness all
relations presumption about the intelligent and say
attention, ass, all bad character.
This kind of thing of visa fee
one person or group of people and their tool, but one understands to be their racial identity? Ok, some! So given that definition, which it which I agree with,
Who is the evil genius who first convince the world? That being able to honestly say that quote. Some of my best friends are black, is not an adequate defence against the charge of racism toward black people if the path forward toward some cuts
blind utopia doesn't entail having best friends or even a spouse, who is from a different raise they that doesn't represent an adequate sir.
Counting of the problem of of racism, and I'm speaking personally, we can leave aside institutional or structural racism for the moment, but if having ones closest most,
Dammit friends, b of another raise, isn't an adequate defence of what you just described as racism or defence against what you just described as racism
explain to me what is for me that you use this phrase. Some of my best friends are because I once wrote an article has been over twenty years. Now about us,
of censorship in public discourse, theory of political correctness,
published in the german rationality and society and nineteen nineteen slower and in it I develop an account of political correctness which I could go into in Britain,
should you be interested, but I can say this much about little gladness and move on my account or regime political career.
This is all well signalling equilibrium in which people who don't
Wanna be sought out this being on the wrong side of history were suppressed and honest expression of what they believe,
how about some controversial issue, because
People who are known to be on the wrong side of history are
Minutely, saying the same thing: ok suffer. Its apple is back during
day when all the on independent,
the Black Sea South Africa was going on a person thought that boycotting suffer
Can businesses was that a good policy, but that constructive engagement with those businesses was a better policy for trying to help the blacks and South Africa with occurs
We thought that they might not be willing to say so in public, because there are other people who were criticised
icing sanctions were basically supporting the apartheid government. Their party government itself is putting up a by that sanctions
we're not as helpful as constructive engagement with the sovereign
With this in mind, I want to say that, as they don't wanna be thought to be ended.
On of history. So with that
understanding of what political correctness might be thought to be
I was making the observation that once a regime of that kind comes into existence, its very robots,
still and difficult to dispel. Any particular declarations of
You know, I'm not really raises some of my best friends are black are
at the sincerity of such declarations are called into question because
gonna say such a thing except the somebody ass. The positive view that
is being sanctioned by a common opinion which they want to avoid being sanction for by making a declaration talk is cheap
but you can see,
So there was
time in american history. I fainted american, cultural and social. His three, maybe the forties,
these may be even into the sixties, repressed,
You could say sincerely and be taken at face value. Some of my best
these are all gay but am
you know I'm against gay marriage. Some of my best friends are black, but I think that is
this action- is really a very poor policy.
That would have some kind of way. But why stood the
Value signalling in which correct
shame on this sensitive issue.
Is it here affirmative action or a homosexual marriage? Correct positions is a way of signalling moral virtue. The car
that one might have otherwise garden from all making this declaration. That say it's a verifiable decoration, someone
my best, friends are no law.
It covers enough
Shakespeare, say somewhere. Methinks he death protest too much.
The guy, you saying some of my best friends are protesteth too much that Guy-
is seeking an exemption from the
world judgment and others for having what he knows, the others know to be unacceptable positions.
Declaring some kind of signal is here,
we see it for what it is a fig leaf and without- and we don't take it seriously- something like that and in your definition of racism, I think we have to distinguish between
the mere harbouring of certain biases and a commitment to enshrining those biases or or a sense that those biases are good or something I shouldn't be corrected for, and submissive racism can't
merely be a matter of harbouring certain biases, because it can't be that you, you failed to be
perfectly neutral, on an implicit association test, because if a vast standard,
almost no one will escape hanging. Even many black people be convicted of racism against black said. I think that the Mazarin Menagerie the year cycle
I will just add: half it was one of the founders of the implicit bias on literature would agree with that. I don't think she would claim any equivalency between implicit.
Yes, I, as measured by her tears and racism or in the
case of gender or differences implicit bias all about
many roles in society which can be detected in almost every population, are far more people will take these tests
and besides me, I think she would
went to draw a distinction between those two. When I made your observation that the case
many african Americans will also sore all
positive in terms of the detection of inclusive bias, about Razor american society on these tests.
That doesn't make them racist. It just means that their cognitive processes,
implicitly incorporate certain presumptions or stereotypes about
racial walls- racial behaviors matter,
a part of our culture and that our shared across the nation longest. So I agree with you just. I should briefly described this task so that people know we're talking about so Mazarin is one of the founders of this test and she's use it probably for twenty years and what it is. It's it's the purpose of the test,
is to expose, believes and biases that people hold that there are either unaware of so that they they can't report or that they know
to be socially undesirable and so that they won't report is just been shown that that France's many white people will will be fast.
Sure at associating negative concepts with black faces than positive ones and and will show in the opposite, biased for white faces and this
is interpreted as meaning that they harbour a preference for white people over black people, and it's easy to see why people would think this
view this is either a sorcerer consequence of racism and, as you pointed out, you can do
kind of test, with other things you can do with cats and dogs are flowers and insects. You can do it with anything really, but let's just stipulate that most people will show an in group bias on the I eighty and we can even go further and and
sad that this underlines. Psychology has something to do with racism. What was its side of the cause of the consequence are both but may racism as a
a social problem to be condemned and eradicated has to be something else, and if it is shown,
white by us on the eighty doesn't make you a racist racism is the endure
cement of norms that support that by says is a person's.
Understanding that he's biased and his further claim that he's happy to be that way, because he believes that society shouldn't correct for such biases, because they're good,
because white people really are better than black people.
Someone who wants society to be unfair based on the color, a person skin, because he thinks skin color is a good one.
To determine the moral worth of human beings, that is something quite distinct from just
merely harbouring these biases. However, they got there and misery question. Such people exist, but
They have to be a tiny minority in our society. At this point and the rest of us people of good will
and you know, moral enlightenment who may or may not be biased, one or another degree clearly now support laws and policies that seek to cancel that kind of racism and, as you say it
we were elected on a our first black president, whose whose finishing his second term this isn't mere tokenism. The people.
Voted for Obama, with with enthusiasm whatever would, and I ain t would have shown about them. These are people who have cancelled their personal racism
in the form in which any real racist worthy of the name would practice it yeah I'd say
It's true, although I know that many people ass, they were to hear this conversation will be objecting bad. You know it's just
was cleverly defined,
racism out of the picture, because the won't be very many at all. Races, laughably widow on everyone, have such a strict definition.
Saw. I unchanging myself right now to try to think we're right,
it might be the problem and I well. I don't have a internally coherent development. I'm sure. Let me just make an observation.
Suppose someone observers on. We know
the promise, I rate, is very high in certain quarters of our society that can be distinguished by racial
People in Chicago have been killed in the last years. A disproportionate number of both victims and apparent perpetrators are black.
All we see
from aside rate in terms of whites perpetrating, the crime is much more
and therefore the seems to be something going on
in terms of black proclivity
to resort to violence in settling disputes or something like that.
Simple: someone says that
Suppose someone says no waited
police, are so afraid when they encounter African Americans on the street. Having taken will look at the crime statistics, somebody said
something like that somebody says. Yes, it may be the blacks. Her life
to be shaped by the police in terms of the rate of police killings
per number in the population than our lives. But after all,
that should also be represented amongst criminals. And so,
who can be surprised that
are also represented amongst the people were shot by police officers.
Someone said something like that. So now, in all these cases, these are statements that are in some way or another could be consistent with a person who
might have certain kinds of implicit biases aware whenever
we endorse the, nor that you know
was biases are justifiable in some senses are not applied.
Erin away indicative of any kind deal. So you know
It needs to be addressed the day they would still
nevertheless be thought to be races,
maybe some says the Asians
All over the sciences and the engineering departments. In her best universities in the blacks are scarce, is empty. There simply makes an observation about the facts that would be more binding,
people would be an act of racism, and yet it couldn't be so classified, given the definition that you ve just been developing.
Hence my definition because I would argue, while as possible for racists real racists, make precisely those observations. Those observations themselves being to my ear quite factual. I'm gonna make
observations of the sort you made with respect to crime in a minute. If that is the signature of racism, well merely reporting statistics, then we can't even too
about the problem. Well, yeah again
I can imagine what a push bad might be. A push back might be something like look you're talking
my talking about this problem is now
something that's going on in the abstract, on the moon, unconnected to anything else. It's embedded
within a structure, leverage
the sea of which is up for debate
actual conversations that sword near me, a recitation of factual call, it merely or hesitation effects without
laboring, took place. Those fats within a context and discipline- our united
fishing of those facts. Were they also the deeper
Understanding of what just three and contemporary social structure have right,
in terms of racial hierarchy in terms of rights supremacy in terms of the com,
They have been enunciating those facts in terms of the political,
consequences of so many people and Uncertain Middlesex
Taking that on board a bets reproduces, rarefies legitimate.
What in more firmly hierarchical
stretches, eraser domination and saw them
Now. Maybe racism is entirely appropriate, driving
it doesn't in these cases that are describing or idea.
You know all kind of classical antipathy
on the basis of race.
We no longer willing in nineteen fifty five, and yet you know the disparities in on.
Inequality is by race of wealth, power, privilege, income,
in the society opportunity to do
great saw its
all laissez faire. Racism is what Mary Bold
the sociologist at Harvard cause
Then he says you know you do opinion surveys of populations of Europe.
People things like. Would you do
to see your daughter or sun married to some wine of the opposite. Ways of a black person is the subject and asked his wife
and they say yesterday at high rates eyes you
asked him. Do they think blacks are inferior, may say, noted that at high rates now
the old classical racism where they have differently still, but still
if you say, are white people disadvantage by affirmative action and they say oh yeah, because my kid didn't get in the Harvard and simple
You wanna Louisbourg in Well
Why can lower score also got in? But you focused on a black it getting it uses.
You think you're, not a racist baggage and women. There see your son and daughter Mary to someone who is black. You will understand the same neighbour that if a black neighbour moves exports, but as a matter of
You interpret your sons, rejection at Harvard Business or consequences.
Affirmative action were hurried, only accepts one in fifteen applicants,
a lot of people getting ahead of your son were not blackened. We had more source so
so then maybe I'm trying to make more elastic then makes sense.
This definition and racism, but I think some of war component,
Furthermore, capacious definition raises some would say in the nineties
If these, your definition is fine in years,
when he speaks to me
to have a more subtle, inexpensive
understanding of how this american disease all is currently functioning. So, let's make it as capacious as possible. I want you to now define what is often called structural or institutional racism
and it seems to me that people talk about this in a way that you are just doing, even it is a choice it that people can participate in a way, a structure that is de facto racist and and perpetuating unfair treatment of people by
stone rays. And yet the people operating in the structure may not in
Be it all. Racism will have less say. Everyone passes Missourians test, nobody's
brain any bias, and yet structures and institutions could still be
deeply unfair and it, and if you could you here
I want to say at the outset I am not personally Glenn Lowry, a big fan of the current sad to involve structure quote structural race
doesn't close quote s arm and meaningful
category of social analysis I asked
dont know quite like people were talking about beyond
come out when the short end of the stick by many
on measures of social achievements, door stages and therefore structural racism,
Let me give incarceration as a case in point
a black Sarah Maud, twelve Chris
her soul of the american population and sorting post
The soul of the people were shot behind bars.
Now. That's a complicated big,
social phenomenon- and you can do
kind of social, scientific investigation of all the sources of that disparity are but simply put the weight of the state of the violence of the state.
Please the police. They drag you away inherent Carson, they lock you up, cage on
regarding your Cecile here you know: you're pissed,
see by agents of the state, bury your stigmatized you're, civically, excommunicated, you're, helping
to turn your treated badly ends
such a large despairing
and the incidence of that kind of treatment by race exist in a society that is sort of ipso facto
an indication of structural racism. The states stands of police forces, they build these cages. They corral people Linda and look at the impact of this
Having on the black community. In some cities the proportion of young men were incarcerated or has a criminal record to a black is a third forty percent
it becomes a warm a way of life
young women go to the prison to try to find maids, and ten thousand such like that kid
see the role models of its current data.
Tools in their best up bodies of coming in
out of the prison, it becomes
one item in these communities. We had so a school to prison. People
because discipline, as youngsters
it still seems to be somehow connected to their supper
what development into criminals we has a prison
industrial complex because indeed
There is money to be made in all provision
The services are associated with incarceration in its being made back.
Corporations and saw
it, so this structure, racism. This is what I think many people say. This is a prime example
structural racism, the structures of law enforcement come down
like a ton of bricks on people
situated in the society,
the margins are because of our history of race and by the way, if the safely
This had been coming down with the same degree of severity on white people. The structure would,
be able to reform itself, questions would arise
restricting you're out with very differently most of the people suffering under that kind of peace,
the regime where white, but because the black and brown
or we can write the more we don't question ourselves,
yet all business as usual usual seems acceptable when all the
bearing the costs of it are black
so so a mushroom answering your question now
It wasn't that, but this is one reason why I think the Trans structure, racism, is so compelling
too many people, and
I a social sciences, fine thee,
application of that kind of
so one size fits all
narrative, structural racism, inadequate together
an account of what is actually going on. In other words, you know it's not as if their
This will allow renounced speaking a culture that rely,
and some structural racism as a category. I want to say it's not as if there's a bunch of
people meeting somewhere deciding ribbon and make the laws this or that in order to
dress blackouts and the water it's not as if the outcome said
people are concerned about, in the example at hand, disparities in the end
the incidence of incarceration are independent of the free.
Places and decisions that are being taken and being made by
people in this case black people, who might end up finding themselves.
Imprison they make.
The decision to participate in criminal activities that were clearly are known
to be on illicit than perhaps carry the consequences that they are now suffering
didn t I sometimes the decisions that they may have enormous negative consequences for other black people. Don't they
Do we want to enquire about? What's going on in the home and community lives and backgrounds from which people
you were on the subject.
Of this racial inequality. Or are we to assume that any such a deficit sword disadvantages that are
causally associated with their involvement in LA breaking and that
related to their own community
attentiveness, apparent thing and so forth are nevertheless themselves the consequence of white racism. Black people wouldn't be acting that way. If it weren't for white racism it
were greater opportunities to schools, were better funded.
If it hadn't been for slavery, all the black family.
The buggy and so forth, and so on, and if that
what you mean by structural racism, which is to say
Every racial disparity is almost by definition, a consequence erased
some either because it reflects the contempt for the value of black white.
The neglect of the development of black people or because, to the extent that it
the consequence of choice of their black people are making themselves they only or making such choices because of the disappear from the
the neglect, the lack of opportunity, etc
they have experienced, then
it seems to me that that's a kind of toxicology that that says any dispute.
By race, is by definition
election of structural racism and is a technology that is a social sciences. I dont want embrace, and is it asked American I'm profoundly skeptical of because at some level,
It seems to me- and I conclude and have been going on for a while- it kindness
surrenders the possibility of african american agency?
saying that everything that is
as a negative character.
That is the selection of inequality of disparity
which blacks around the short in everything is a concept,
what's some of this history, how is it that
works are unable to make our own lives, notwithstanding whatever the history may have been either,
variations in differentiation within the black population that perhaps one could identify and extol the virtue of certain patents
behavior and reactions to environmental conditions that seem to be alone.
More effective and more wife affirming
more successful than others
So I don't like structural racism, because its imprecise causes
crimes is dead end in a way it leaves us dependent upon these us. I mean african Americans dependent upon a kind of
dispensation to be bestowed by
Powerful whites, who actually are moral agents, will actually do have the ability to choose or not of various.
treating responding affirmatively too.
Our demands for redress war
subordination, whites, a powerful, wiser agents. Whites can do the right thing or the wrong thing.
Blacks are merely historical chips, were merely carts autonomy being driven either
act of slavery by the second general segregation and so on and
ultimately not responsible for their old in children's wives. The army's is a very complex picture and I think one thing I just got from what you said is it
even if it's true, even if you could draw a straight line from
slavery and Jim Crow to the stage of emu.
Quality and social dysfunction in the black community as a matter of history and a matter just causality through time, that's not to say that in the year two thousand
in sixteen. The ambient level of white racism is the ongoing cause of these problems and that, if you could just get white people
the last racist by due to wave a magic wand and literally dissect out all of the racism harbored by white people on any level that would magically correct for all of the problems you just articulated that that doesn't follow. So what does it get you if you really
countries that line the two hundred year old line to the present, where
that leave you and leaves you with something like a ton, hearty coaches picture,
of reality, where what we should be talking about now is your pain, reparations for slavery, and unless I mean I'd
actually dont have. I dont know what I think about that. I I know what I think about coats, his style of talking about this issue and
fact that I'm talking to you and not to him suggests we are well aware,
I think the more profitable,
and civil and rational conversation is going to be had. Frankly, I will one point I thought I would I know,
one recommended that I have on the podcast, and I just honestly, I feel, like the conversation, would be a disaster. This style of talking to strikes me as a move: Europe,
To put this income starkly invidious terms from which he would want to defend himself adjust. It does strikes me as not intellectually honest in its totality. It's very
there's a kind of pandering to white guilt and black rage
that never stops and E. We can't just talk about facts in a in annex iv away and that that worries
let me say something here, and we can talk more about culture that is. Is it suits you? I'm not happy did not do so, but out their cup of tea. I want to say,
one of them is, I want to mention the name, Thomas Chatterton Williams. I either
African American on each saw all.
We then call ceases, maybe ten years younger than closer percinet early thirties on here
in Paris. He saw train philosopher all right
George Town University, and I'm not sure where did graduate study, but I think it is a gradual, studying philosophy as well. Then he has a essay its published
the London Review of boats
it is a review essay of autonomous he called system.
Between the world in me, and the book
as Thomas Chatterton shattered
his argument in that us say? Is that
open letter to his son, in which he advised
the sign that America is so thoroughly content.
She was of your values a human day that you must not desert as relax. You must know
trust. These people were turn your back on them. They will review to shreds. They were
there's nothing more american than taken a guy. Like you hanging you from a and tearing your limbs off one by one, don't
leave in the american dream. We are all all up against an implacable source.
That source erases your humanity? It's alright
it's been so, and it will
be so this is a paraphrase of the posture the court's takes in the to me. I think it's an accurate
first and Williams, Thomas Cherry,
Civilians in the London Review of books uses it as a point
the to say on there's no place
the goals from here you know so black people.
Is an absolutely bleak
and it is distant power-
it just surrendered agency,
there's only one possible future here in this in itself, is a very bleak wouldn t anything sensible,
I true, as the actual historical socio here
Local circumstances in the United States, rather more complicated than that, but he also
MRS Soul killer, that it's an exit,
don't you surrender and ways humanity to take such a question.
So I just want to mention- is that you're listeners who might have in common
astonished charter to William who, by the way, suddenly
it that I say to the new Yorker I happen to know one good authority and its sat on an editors desk. Ah sir,
z, visually child is an absolutely brilliant. This controversy on engagement with Tallahassee he his book,
and saw a williamsons, I'm taking it to the women, the zeal books, because it can get published any nice. It's yeah the liberal
as you will, Cotonou Santee.
The ruling class of cultural mandarins. I'm
We will not tolerate that kind of our
from an african american control. Other stance
at that time. Icicles has taken says. One thing I want to mention. The other not be very brief. Is niche
Andrew Mitch, land,
the former mayor of the city of New Orleans out at aspen at the ideas
Ass, the woman s been a couple years ago,
land drew and cold war period up in a panel in which they were discussing war, praise and inequality in Amerika. I thought you said
in the past that we now all he would take,
inland rules and with what he called the books of the dead. Now the books
were literally the case books front
police department in the city of New Orleans. That
recorded the details of azure
unresolved homicide cases in that city there were hundreds of day and night
saddle more of the victims
These cases were black or people
and Andrew was trying to say took calls in
responds to collapses arguments about the implacable ideals.
Can racism in the generation of black humanity and the devaluation of the black body that, like
for the children themselves and very large numbers in the eyes not shot
The conservative, with a wagging his finger about black on black, cried Missus Mitchell,
dreams. Centrist Democrat the
a city moorlands, in this case, so sky, another political family of some prominence. Democrats in wishing Anna and served as mayor of New Orleans and confronting tunnel ass. He calls at the Aspen ideas festival in a debate about race and inequality in America, and its courts had taken position that we
land rule had tried to call to generally called to the attention of
the observation that much of the threat to the integrity of black bodies and
What lies are coming from other black?
People are offering his eminence of that is also called books of the dead, which were the case books.
There were a compendium of details about unresolved homicide cases in New Orleans, the vast the vast majority of which ninety percent of whom were about the victims
where on african american
courses response to land drew was to dismiss handled
back in his chair this by the way
written up in New York magazine,
one searches near
magazine on ports and on my Andrew all your site.
A very long. I say that
it is about time, has he calls in their reports in this camp and response.
Was again by the back of his near their aid
nothing wrong with black people that ending
white supremacy wooden sets? What do you expect people to do their rats in a bit
you ve got to live under a barrel, Youtube
open a little pig down in there and you find that their at each other's throats. When what would you expect to happen? It's the frigging barrel, man
you gonna blame the rats. Ok, that's me
metaphor, that icicles might have you.
But it's capturing this idea that the mayhem do
spit, were born devaluation of wise, attended to people riding up and down the street in an automobile with heavy weapons, sire
more or less aimlessly out the window at their game, rivals and killing innocent bystanders along the way in this
happening in the scores and hundreds
within a year in a given city? That,
a kind of may him that the kind of despicable contempt for human life shown by black people toward other white people,
not relevant to us.
but it is that actually imperils black wise because those behaviors understood themselves to be the consequence of this
Some in our history of oppression,
now. You can say that she d say this: with eloquence and and style. You can see this with fury at anger. You can save
where economy of word and climate turn of phrase is taller. Halsey courts has been given to do, but it doesn't make it
a valid moral argument. It seems
me- and I have said this- that courts was holding a pair of queen,
and that he was looking at an ace face up and that he was blessing. In other words, he was dead,
Mitchell Andrew to come back at him and say what
absurdity you're telling me that people have to run up
down the street firing guns out of windows ensuring their brethren, because we didn't we
it read reparations for slavery handed over to you yet because
somebody who was mayor of the city ten years ago and the be racist because the police
women. Has somebody who's associated with the cooks, clad in it
telling me that that
swains or somehow excuses or cancels out the more
The judgment that I would otherwise bring the beer- I guess any other
community, in which I saw this happening. You telling me that the history,
slavery and Jim Crow now essentially in the past, is pertinent to our reaction to this.
Lived experience on a daily basis of African Americans in my american city, you're beneath contempt tilted,
in that way. You're the one who
has no real respect for the value of black life. You live in a bubble. Why? Don't you get
out of it and what the streets of these places where people die now coats flash out.
Well. I was raised in Baltimore at a time when, in I've seen enough gang activity- and I know what's going on inside Now- and I've been there whatever and land.
Who can say the body count continue.
Some. Now, where are you
the latter should relate. The
the culture will meets in Washington, DC and New York City and gives guilty wipe.
But when excuse not to feel so
guilty. Weren't, you blather on we're
actually burying the dead land. You might have responded to him like that, might have told him to get the hell out of here with that
nonsense, that attempts to intellectual was, would any person with common sense can see as an absolute disaster. You blaming white people, saw black people living some white barbarians. Your blaming white people for that
He might have said to him. That's what I said to him: landfills
oh did the head with a Arabic. Now you ve convinced me that we need to stage public debate between you and coats and put it on prime time television they'll be worth seeing. Let's talk about that, the may him I must get into the question of islands. So as a here's, the basic picture, as I understand it, America is distinguished as one of the most violent societies and in the developed world.
As almost everyone knows almost entirely because of the level of crime and violence in the black community, and this is this- is true.
Even if you include all the mass shootings from crazy white, guys right that make the news
Violent crime in America is overwhelmingly a problem of black men, killing other black men and what it what I just learned in preparation for this and endemic I'm embarrassed not to have really
complete picture of this problem, but a ye recommended this book get outside on your podcast o, yet which I also recommend when I just learn, is that this has been.
A problem more or less since the end of slavery, its it didn't start with the crack epidemic in the eightys, which is more or less what I thought. I think many people believe
and you can read newspaper editorials in the 19th century that give the predictable racist topspin to this, where they say more or less. You know this is God's form of population control at the black man kill himself out of existence that works for us
this problem of black men killing other black men is an old problem and again I'm not I'm not saying that white racism or structural racism or both
in a white personal racism or the the attendant structures that that endure
Even after that's overcome, don't have some role to play here, but the facts on the ground is that black man or killing
black man in overwhelming numbers and violent crime in America, peaked in nineteen, ninety three and it has fallen precipitously sims, perhaps with the exception of a of a of a recent uptick in major cities, which people fear is due to cops now being afraid to be caught on cell phone cameras, arresting black,
so they did. This has now been called the Ferguson effect. Then I'm not sure I mean do have a an opinion at this point about whether the Ferguson effect is actually real or is that is as it is. The jury is still out on that. I think the jury.
Still out on it. I I don't think enough. Time is borne by with enough data for to really be
sways empirical argument, it speculation,
you do have the accounts of some.
Black and law enforcement in citys around the country saying indeed cops capture.
The railways, low revise area bodies and with a mobile phone recording device. Now me they are afraid to do their jobs
Had this tyrannical evidence. Heather Mcdonald, that will address the two who spoke in the war on cops is has just said,
as recently as a leading proponent of the service, in effect,
there is a guy I'll think of his name in a moment at down the one that it wasn't university actor
Nothing is the University of Missouri. His name is rose and fell off into the first name. Momentarily rose and fell at the Euro
Firstly, of Missouri Saint Moors was an x
Who has recently been saying at first, he thought the service in effect
an exaggeration, but now with the captain, data of violent crime and citizens over he's, not so sure so there
there's. Some people were big proponents of it. There are a lot of people who were deniers of it.
And Richard Rosenfeld. I placed him in the middle of a relatively objective observer and he's saying
Jury is out, I'm gonna go with him and say as far as that
and so it's not here one way or the other quite get, but are you? Are you saying so, and this is again, these are facts that some are more familiar with,
many of the numbers I have now are plucked from that book get outside at its peak violence,
Crime is not getting one thousand nine hundred and ninety three in a city like LOS Angeles, the homicide rate for black men in their early twenties was three hundred and sixty eight per one hundred thousand per year, and now that that is one hundred times higher than is normal in any civilized society that we would recognize,
It is, in fact, is more than that is probably two hundred times higher than than most cities in Western Europe, and I don't even think about someplace like Japan, that that's completely off them.
And it's it's a similar rate of death as that suffered by. U S, soldiers deployed to Iraq at the height of the wars,
you have young black men who were literally living in a war zone and
killing one another and against it,
the crime rate has fallen sense, but it remains at data proportion in the black community remains, as high in fact might remain my
should be a little higher. It might have fallen quite as much in the black community last twenty years. The facts on the ground
moment, as I understand them, are that black men comprise six per cent of the population and they are currently forty percent of those.
Get murdered and again they die in in the vast majority of cases at the hands of other black men who commit over fifty percent of the murders in the countries they give you. Six percent of the population commits in over fifty percent of the murders. Most of those murders are of other black men now is that
I have my facts straight about that one can system mean, I don't have a book open in front of me to give exact numbers, but those numbers are
as far as I know, accurate. I certainly qualitatively there in the ball park. I've seen the same kind of statistics is that's correct. Where I sit up putting one
In fact in play here, which I really again, I either
think I learned from this book ghetto side, and I guess if you had asked me before reading the book, I could have told you something like this, but it is just didn't. I didn't have this concrete statement in my head,
and it seems very important, which is that we know that there has been a problem of it, of extraordinarily ban policing in the black community and far too often by white cops rights. Are there have been some very visible instances of cops who have used inappropriate force in in arresting or in defending themselves from blacks aspects, and the result is that the community believes it
health to be unfairly profiled for crime and that it suffers an inordinate number of lethal encounters with cops as a result now- and we will shortly
Talk about whether that perception is true in terms of the level of of lethality from from encounters with cops. But there's
question that that a movement, my black lives matter is born of the perception that that these facts are true and yet
and white racism. Weather is implicit or or explicit is, is the underlying cause of all this, but one
I got from ghetto side is that an EU you mentioned this:
ready that it has a lot of talk about how the criminal justice system disproportionately targets and incarcerates young black men. That seems to be true when you're talking about
petty crimes or when you're talking about the war on drugs, which has obviously been a disaster, but me
murders in the black community generally go
solved and the main reason is that witness has refused to testify, and obviously some of that reluctance is understandable because they're afraid of getting killed. But it seems to me this is a problem that can't be pinned on police misconduct or white racism, but the price
one in the hood is that you have murderers walking around unpunished right and in the statement
really on violence, just doesn't exist, and so people either refused to testify or they take the law into their own hands and it perpetuates the cycle of violence so, paradoxically, or seemingly, paradoxically, the black community is suffering from
too much application of law and order on petty crimes and on non violent drug crimes, which I have argued
for no one should be punished for an tool.
It all law and order on crimes that really matter. You just have a you. You have a kind of state of nature situation with respect to murder and enough. The Ferguson effect is real,
It would be a terrible irony because, obviously, that is the solution to to violence,
in the black community can't be a man.
Of neglect from law enforcement again, I urge I put that to you,
as please give me a reality check or a sanity check on on those points. Ok, you said quite a bit there.
We're things I wanted to join in response. I hope I can. I can remember all of them. Yes, I think the Jew
the only l e o p. Why was the author of ghettos side? This book you ve, been referring to
does. It does a great service in her description,
granular, you know on the ground a detailed account
What homicide detectives trying to deal with the problems of killing in South Central LOS Angeles are up against in your right one of the things that
up against is the difficulty of persuading
people who have the information necessary to bring a case effectively
word against someone allegedly committed a murder, all their reluctance to cooperate with the police.
I'm in your right, Joe
He only wants to underscore why
global consequences, sour swam, this action,
it's possible that kill more or less with impunity with people don't want to come in to testify the offended
it is going to be to reduce the likelihood that anybody who actually ultimate weapon
His senses will ever be brought to account. The idea that you can kill with impunity makes
it's possible to really intimidate witnesses, and you can see how this becomes a kind of self fulfilling.
Privacy yourself reinforcing dynamic. One thing I think people would want people.
In all sympathisers black lives matter and others will one day
Insists that I say here and I don't mind saying it- is that the unwillingness of witnesses to corporate reasons, partly a reflection of their food,
here that they would suffer some reprisal when it's also partly reflection of their distrust of the police, which
itself, a consequence of the historical practices of police,
These communities, because the two areas, the trust, the citizen,
its police- have been bad actors, maybe if only a few of them, but those people
come in they get away than did the police are unsympathetic. They don't know that
You really don't miss their state.
People in their ordinary and, of course, with citizens were black with content? Is there too quickly
resort to violence in their encounters with white people.
And so on.
Stream, MR prepared to use legal force when its unjustified and the victims are black
the the community for not wanting to snatch not wanting to have anything to do with the police
so in a way. Yes, this cycle of violence could be traced in
and looked carefully to the consequences of racism in the case of had alienation between the communities in the police as a consequence of racism effect.
The police is dealing with the community in days gone by the other day.
I think I should say is that again, people would want to make
point they make it right away. There can be. No,
the that most of the murders that are occurring. We're blocks of victims have been perpetrated by black people, because murder was the kind of crime in which all the
More often than not the person whose victimized and the person who commits a crime are connected to it
other in some way. They may know each other. They are a part of the same social network for their located in the same general geography.
The social space and so people kill
those who are connected to them.
In some way and given the segregated patterns of all
of Social Association and residential limitation in our society. We can be no surprise that most of the black Sea were killed or killed by the blacks.
It is also true that most of the whites were killed at your by other rights, on that
the argument that people will make. I dont think its adequate to the problem that you have described because it doesnt a council that too
It was of magnitude difference in the rate at which people are being killed.
Technological to say yes, that most people who were killed
be cured by somebody who looks like Nan closely in the sense that they are of the same raise. But it doesn't speak
to the issue of the incidents
These killings occurring at so much higher,
it's all. It still makes sense to talk about like people killing black
people, not as a matter of emphasis
The rays of the persons who are
Joseph emphasising the qualitatively distinct character of the killing.
Finally, I want to say something that my colleague and friend Rajiv Seti columns,
The Columbia University Barnard College witnesses
Did I say- and I think it's a point worth making, which is that sometimes chewing an epidemic
Chile have a kind of logic of their role in this.
Instead, if I think somebody is trying to do
when he spoke. I haven't dispute. Suppose I step on this
low shoe the sheep,
namely shied he's sitting on it
as with foot slightly out in the aisle I walk person. I step on the shoe you mix up at me and expects an apology
and I sneaked at him and keep walking every
I see that in laughter breaks out somewhere in the box on dispute, he stepped on your shit
you don't let him do that,
so now we have a beef,
says to me you m ass. You did me like that.
You step on my she went. Don't apologize, I'm gonna, throw again kill you
He says it in exactly that town and it gets off the boss now
Y know that tonight
we're tomorrow, I'm not gonna be sitting on my porch and Ethel has wanted
live by with his whole boys and they're gonna stable,
western out the window.
A mere somebody I love is gonna, be there I've got a beef is now. I gotta go to the cops and say
when my lies and expected anything affected is going to happen. I just
might wanna take pre emptive action
I want to make sure that I'm the one who is doing the shooting and he's the one who is doing the diet.
We have a situation where the sun
said. There is no doubt
resolution mechanism, on which I can rely that will protect me in my person.
Protect my family in my house, all these little
when you take matters into
my own hands. Suppose I know that if I go to the police force of murderous happened, my brother's killed there's this famous now famous incident. That's reported by Alice Gasoline
This document is a young sociologists who spoke on IRAN is an account of guy.
are being sought by the police authorities and we were on the Lamb trying to avoid being taken into custody and she
where's among them and get to know them very well? And rights and ethnographic study of what life is like
in this quarter of our society amongst people who are being sought by the law. The book is called on. The Rhine and I highly recommend the Dallas Bosman is a very fine, very
promising young nervously, but in any case, in any case, famously ass, she gets
No, these guys very well in one of their number, is killed an egg.
Game dispute conflict which leads to downplay and
You know the surviving strands and she's close to all of them, decided there
to take matters into their own hands and get research, because otherwise nothing will happen
let there so many and resolve the homicide cases in America's big cities. They know the chances that justice is actually going
be done, are slow
they decide that the Czech let it stand a sheet?
Actually, she record this listen her book,
in the vehicle with this,
I bodies of this social group that she had done to know.
Riding around looking for the assailant she's
driving, and this became such
You know what kind of notorious thing, because she's after all, she's a scowl juice mega directions. A professor sociology able at the university was-
France and her grant money pay for the gas in that car. You want one wonders you know in what would the institutional review, but I bet they supposed to supervise research involving human subjects had to say about dozen, but in any case
they don't signed the assailant
and so she doesnt actually become an accomplice to murder, but the end
do what I tell it went here is meant to underscore. The fact that people made me see
We need to take matters into their own hands tit for tat, because I can't belongs civil authority to resolve these. These
things in a satisfactory way. So both the strategic promotion element and the kind of
large septal, I the and therefore, and therefore the wild West, I'm going to this matter. My only will tend to elevate the level
of this kind of violence within.
Racially class geographically define you know. Orbits of social interaction likened the city Naples stop having,
said that those things might somehow a cow.
Are some of the elevated level.
Of time is, although you know,
Given the number six per cent of the population, forty percent of the murders, I can you quantity
give me a cancer that all I mean, I'm
I'm too about that. Other things may be, must be going.
Why? One wonders why one imagines why just stick with your anecdote per second other things have to be going on, because there is no body, certainly not the cops that can preemptively
resolve a problem like that in even the most a feat and privileged white circles. You know so I'm if I'm walking through a Starbucks and I step on someone's toe and fail to apologise and the person is pissed. That thing doesn't escalate.
Because one I will almost certainly apologize and two, if I'm so distracted that I Didn'T- and he says something
My culturally acquired conflict resolution skills will kick in one huh.
Jobs to a degree that Wall MA
fi him, and I will not be left with the sense that somewhat now believes it has full time job to figure out how to kill me, but at no point in that process,
Do I get to resort to the cops or even the the Borri stay in the star bucks to resolve them?
and if it does escalate. If it comes to the point where
This guy is actually committed to killing me. I am in sort
the situation you are in the hood may not liking. I have I received death threats and I know what it's like to talk to the FBI and the cops and try to resolve those situations, and there is very little they can do. Preemptively- and this is not
Don't live in minority report where, where the people can get arrested for pre crime, the level of threat has to be so high before any one from the state will take action. Preemptively
we are talking about cultural means and attitudes and norms that must be allowing for the regular awry
option of lethal violence and also talking about teenagers, often right, so you know what they did
no, you have their brains fully wired up. You know in terms of their frontal courtesies that would prevent any this behavior so that the citizen, just very quickly in the context of the anecdote in it,
be observed, you're Eurostar,
Cook's analogy is interested in this
is that it
this guy is your privilege and in the following way, I was deliberately underscoring my privilege. I was trying to think of something fancier than Starbucks, but couldn't tell me it's what I mean is this? Are you saying
true means. I think we ought to unpack that little bit. You
as a middle class white person in a Starbucks have absolutely no investment in your public persona as a tough guy that that is the day the advantage,
of your cultural motivation and social economic location is such that,
You lose nothing from offering that apology
and you say, deploying you're cosmic their resolution.
And skills were partly their skills, but also
They are the advantage of being nestled constantly within a complex of social interactions, in which a reputation for toughness
has no particular value to you.
And if you were someone like China, has he called screwing up in inner city Baltimore
he did that twenty five years ago or whatever ass a teenager on it, would be
absolutely a burden on you going forward to be thought of as a policy to be
out of his a worse as weak as somebody
Baxter someone! He doesn't have the courage to fight the
Observation of that kind,
persona or reputation,
was to be answered. Reflex automatic reflex,
in in that kind of environment, so bad
You can't seem to be as somebody who would back down- and
person living in inner city bottomless simply doesn't have the luxury his eyes
If they don't know ways
in their cultural tool. Kit somewhat. This argument go
rely upon more civil means of Christ,
and you know, lowering the temperature and so forth and saw its that the bitter fruits of the
isolation or is such a period of time with so little opportunity, and so much
damage, that's been done, is partly that
have to carry themselves through the world and with a certain swagger. Ah there,
two events, a certain
hair trigger sensibility willingness to go to the.
Tonight you know a level as it comes to that
just a way of being in the world cultivated,
necessarily in that environment, which is odd
you can call of culture if you want to. But if you fail to see that it's a product bells history
and then the social oppression over African Americans in these girls. You would be doing a great
service to the people who live there, but that Cairo, thereby actually would agree with,
Firstly, all of that- and I could easily imagine suddenly finding myself in more or less the same condition if I, if I were sent to
prison by found myself in a maximum security prison. Well. Yet then, despite my best intentions and everything I know
how people should behave around each other so as to maximize their well being.
I would find myself with no choice, given the way the inside
jobs are aligned to behave in precisely that way, and- and- and I have written about this before- and I like that- is that the only
rational choice for any person being sent to a maximum security. Prison is to
become immediately affiliated with a gang of his. You know appropriate skin color, so as to be as immune as possible in the perpetual race war that goes on in those prisons and see minutes
literally might not have a bone in your body. You might be, who is it Morris Dees from the southern
really lost entry of sent to prison the only rational
Ways for him is to join the white areas gang. Otherwise everyone will pray on him, and so I understand that there are those contacts and, to some degree, the the
isolation, you're describing in certainly in the EU,
city. Among you know, gang members in in the black community shares many of the same incentives that one notices in a prison thus pivot too, that the issue of police,
I and I want to come to creep up on the on the friar study that has gotten a lot of press, and yet when I ask your opinion that, but a few basic facts here so that again
in my recent reading, four percent of blacks,
who die by homicide are killed by cops rights, and so ninety six percent are not killed by cops. Yet
again, virtually all of them are killed by other black men
not a lot of white men, killing black men and theirs, as you
now: there's not a lot of black men killing white men, though there are more. You go in that direction, but most violence is inter racial and, incidentally, twelve percent of whites and Hispanics who die by homicide are killed by cops. Was so that's it it's at three times the rate are killed by cops in terms of those who.
Guy by another person's hand, and am as we get into this data. You know we should admit that statistics are a bit of a rorschach test, is possible to read even valid
mistakes in misleading ways or in ways that are guided by bias and and needless to say, we will do our best not to do that. But here are just a few more facts, as I understand them, a thousand people
are killed each year in the U S by cops more or less and around fifty percent of these
fatalities are white and about twenty five percent are black. Now that that's double what you'd expect from the demographics causes, as you said, about twelve to thirteen percent of the population or black, but they commit again. Fifty per cent of of all violent crime, at least in some cities, is as much as two thirds
violent crime, so my question for you and for our listeners to ponder is given how much crime black men are committing in our society again, mostly against other black men and given how much attention from the police they will naturally attract because of this and should attract in hopes of keeping the black community, save what percentage of failing
counters with cops would make sense. Yet. May honestly, I'm surprised just like I never having heard of the friar study, which will talk about just looking at these data that it's it's only twenty five percent better Black there
strikes me as a surprisingly low, yeah
So I cannot respond to your question. What percent,
should we expect given the aggregate statistics, since I don't think the aggregate
statistics are adequate.
To the assessment of the
individually, creditors between all black people and
peace than me to shootings. But let me explain that I think I might have been a little bit cryptic. I'm not sure I made myself clear
I want to use an analogy less
suppose that in a survey flights bad on average
Women make seventy cents for every dollar that men making the labour market. I just
make that number rotten, but enough. Something like that is undoubtedly true, certainly less than a hundred percent
the seventy percent number has been thrown around
and someone says to me, given the fact that
women paths of the bulk of the child rearing responsibilities. Oftentimes.
Time off from work in order to attend to those responsibilities are disappearing.
Lee electing today,
sue careers in. Why,
of activity that, like you're, giving or teaching or something like that, and I don't mean the traffic and stereotypes, I'm just imagining a hypothetical response
pay less than let's say
I don't know construction worker engineering, something like that
given that men and women are different in so many ways exactly what
proportion of their earnings on the dollar. Would you expect, if
think seventy seventh think semi since the two, nor should it be. Eighty five certainly shouldn't be a hundred given the fact that women are in all the points in the labour force in order to just
children's bonds bodies and saw something like there now,
I don't know how to answer that question. When
Then the moral issue was
women being treated fairly in the workplace, are they getting paid the same as men for the same work, so that's kind of
should about what happens to an individual woman. She encounters an employer
and a use of these aggregate averages doesn't reach that question. Given the background facts you describe, I would expect women to work, alas, but I would still expect them to get paid the same for. Do
in precisely the same job? Now nothing there were there wouldn't be some economic consequences for working less. You might not advance INA up the hierarchy as much as men in the aggregate, but the two.
Vice president of the company, men and a man and woman need to be paid the same, and I think that's clear. I guess the issue here is that if it there's much more crime being perpetrated by black men, if, if the call to the cop says you know somebody just been shot,
Can you describe the the shooter yeah? He was a black eye and the cops show up,
It happens more often right. Just by definition, Europe cops or go are going to be look
in four and encountering
men more than white men, yes, and given that any encounter with a cop KEN escalates lethality, just by dint of either reasonably or by dint of incompetence on the part of the copse you'd, expect the rate to be higher than just that the demographic of twelve percent would suggest, and so I'm just
Rather, we are on the same page. You yes, would expect it to be higher. The question is how much higher that was the question that you asked me yeah right, wise, as you say, of fairness with dictate that if it were the same job, the men and women should be paid the same rate, but the question would be
How would I know from aggregates statistics whether or not I was really comparing like with like?
I need individualised data. I need data at the level of the encounters between police and citizens to us
asked whether or not the circle
answers in which blacks and the police in Congo each other.
And the rate of chewing of police by blacks comes out
be what it is are similar to this. Let me let me up. Let me put this limit. You senator seems, like a perfect say, wait to talk about the friar study, which it is to that. That was what I regard to be virtuous and you should introduce a proper me about. That study is the fact
Such conclusions as are drawn their subjects were qualifications we might want to bring our based upon
The visualize data of encounters between,
officers and citizens not upon a comparison of aggregate,
rates across large collected.
These, were you? Don't really know whether you comparing like with like yeah, so he said,
study was performed by Rowan Friar at Harvard who, I believe he was a student of yours- is accurate and that's the employment quality higher. I like roles, I very much. I was his new toy when he was in graduate school when he and I have written
papers together were very good friends and
Those colleagues- and indeed he was I'm proud of them- is now get out. One of the leading a young
I'm young being under forty apply,
economists are working today, Sir, you me you're, probably better places
rise the findings of the study, as was the flaws, but I would just say that some people have pointed out
laws and limitations, and one of those were one of the people
that I aware of was received said they who you just mentioned. Who was was on your PA
cast Wilson and with some concern that the characteristics of the sample who sample people arrested didn't match those of the people killed,
you can just discuss the friar findings and and the limitations as you as you currently see them, but I guess it also. There was another problem that is not representative of the whole nation. He took specific cities and and looked at their data is an ongoing project.
I expect we're gonna, see more or out of it as time goes on there
study in question, which was on reported all about in a front page,
Peace and the new times just after it was released, is now a working paper
the National Bureau for Economic research with any
consigned that wine can download the study and look at it
based on data from the city of Houston, friars ongoing project- has
data from other citizens? Well, but the study at hand I its main fine.
These are based upon data from the city of Houston and what he finds is that in I'll explain,
more detail exactly what these data are analyzing, those data with with an eye to detecting whether or not the likelihood that suspect
Citizen is shot by police officer, trying to
the troll for the specific aspects of the encounter,
in a police officer and the citizen, those aspects being things like what part of town
does it occur, and what time of day has the suspect been on?
is the armed or she did
All of these,
to was seen as a consequence of a report of illegal activity,
as the suspect resisting in some other way. All attempting to avoid being
thus by police officer on, were third parties
So third parties are endangered by the beard with assessed all these kinds of details,
the corner to fire
The agents and for them in every way
ascertain whether the likelihood that the police officer discharges its weapon
Hence this aspect is greater than the suspect is black, other things: equal numbers
last other things equal. The settlers, parables is critical, other things equal, so
the way proceeds as he's got to populations of on people and
since citizen police encounters in the city of use them- and this is based upon data made available to his research teams,
by the use and police department
dinner arrests deeds, so within it
the period of time all of the purse,
these were arrested by all.
You some police, about for each arrest. A detailed report has to be filed by the police officer.
Every year. Has access to these narrative accounts?
the police officer and processing the arrest needs to write it up and they re
What happened leading
to the arrest, the justification for the arrest and so on, and that's all reported
So that's the iraqi population, and he knows it
whether another police officer discharged a weapon in the process of prosecuting the arrest
making has the population of people who shot by police officers. So there
ass. The universe universe of people were arrested by police are thought of, as those were most likely to be the victims of shooting, so so shooting by cops by a cop. Yet by they there. They were
susceptible to being shared by the caught the either. Where are they were not but
add they were arrested, means that there was an encounter in which shooting might have occurred. So he's
that the zero one variable it's one. If the shot shooting occurred in sea worth it did the caricatures course in them fastened,
Many of their rest shooting didn't occur, but sometimes it did
he's trying to use his own, while so called majestic,
regression analysis to estimate the probability that a shooting would occur in the context of an arrest.
As a function of the features of the arrests which are such as I described. We're win
under what conditions that the policemen encountered, the citizen and also whether the citizen is black and white
finding is that
likelihood of the police officer shooting in this sole arrest population
once you control Sir every aspect
we can observe about the entire between the police officer and the citizen
is no greater
the citizen is black.
If the citizens is right and indeed a slightly less than
If the citizen is why so,
I basis. He concludes that the lightning
heard of the use of all Demi for Spain
we saw Sir Tinted use a deadly force by the police officer. Shooting, I suspect, is not greater if your black, once you control
for the features of the entire between the police officer and the citizen as well. He finds that the likelihood that the police would use
physical force in their internal short of shooting operating costs and someone,
all using up the time or a chaser
forcing them to write down on the street while there being interrogated and taken into custody when fire speaks out generically as well
laying on of hands that use is greater,
and it is the same kind of analysis is some kind of.
As short of Demi Force used against the suspect
sanctions. I would think that we can see about the Un Charter, including the rays of the suspect, doesnt seem
the pin what she controls of those other things on the way
so the suspect
His answer there is yes, I'm about a twenty
says to save greater chance that some kind of fall short of shooting will be used against this aspect with these black. Then, if he's
other things equal in about twenty eight percent or so less of a problem
do that shooting will be used against this aspect. If he's black and then other things,
ok, so ass. The broad outline of his findings are
This is it located are blackness as being a fact
you're in the police used for short of daily force, but is not complicated as effective.
Indeed, the number go slightly. The other way
police use of shooting other suspect this and use them
Now here's some of the concerns that the register setting and others have raised about this final, a
the only way we know about this, because the police department was willing to let this research team look at their data up in depth. Sunda police, departed,
Do that some dough,
not only is this finding limited to Houston, because it's only use the data that we have agreed on those that apply to New Orleans, a Dallas LOS Angeles,
but also we should be suspicious because the fact that
Houston. Will let you get the data, perhaps it
it is the fact that used to knows that the data are not are largely exculpatory and the police departments. Where,
the data would not be spoken. Tory are not then using the data, so you can't drive.
Any valid conclusion about policing as such from the fact that you
at the data now only because it's only one city, but because it's not a representative city, the fact
giving you the data is itself an indication that there not represented the other.
So. That's one major why of course
the rapporteur aware of this, but I mean he can only analyzed the data that he has been an project.
Other cities in which he has been in contact in the state of Florida. Again that you know I don't know
all they can to New Jersey. I know he's been very
if their New York City is turned over all of their stopping frisk data to him
over a period of years. That is also in the process of analysing and by the way, the preliminary analysis of which, in your city, sentences data are concerned, is finding that police are
they rightly to use for a sharp short of daily force against aspects of the suspects. Oh boy. The criticism, though, is that
Because he relies on arresting data
The universe is people who might be shocked by the police in its effort to ask
Jane whether or not the police do. The shooting
the shooting is dependent upon the recent of the suspect, because he rise on arrests data. He has implicit
me to assume that the processes leading to an arrest,
in the same way, regardless
of the race or the suspect. In order to draw
any valid conclusion
about whether that not based on those data, the police are more or less
likely to shoot at somebody given that their black here
Susan, for example, that the pool of black Rusty's is comparable in its degree of threat, impulsive,
his officers as the blue and white Orestes, but suppose
says retching than others that the police
the innocent black people and arresting them Sandra Bland gets arrested in taxes for driving for a battle
police officer when she stopped for a broken daylight or for not Sidney
lay in changing whatever it was. An she's actually taken into custody
the right person insane circumstance, perhaps wouldn't have been taken in because they support something like that is true, so that there is a black hole.
Wave of arrests, these disproportionately consists of people were relatively less threatening. Then the white population and receive points out.
That there are differences by race and some of the other characteristics of the arrest of population. The black sea
ass likely to be armed than the whites were arrested, for example, their rapid
ITALY, more women.
Black and the arrest of population than they are right in their rest, a population that things of this so suppose the police,
discriminatory and How-
They decide about arresting people and are quicker to arrest.
What's were less threatening than white, then the black people,
nation of Orestes is that's true, is on average, less threatening than the wider public.
So finding that the rate at which they are shot is comparable to the right.
At which the wage a shot is not proof of non discrimination
They rather is proof of the fact that they are being discriminated against, because on the hypothesis that they were less threatening the blacks were arrested. We should have
affected a much lower rate of shooting, not a comparable weight of shooting in their population.
So a is wrong about the implicit assumption that the police do not discriminate in the press.
Says that leads us
one being arrested based on race.
Then he's also wrong in the conclusion that, from his data, which is based on the arrest of population, the likelihood of being shot by the police officer,
is roughly the same or maybe even a little bit lower if your black, that's the nature of the project is based on,
assumptions that are not verified in the data assumptions, in this case that the police,
advised in the process of arrest of its past,
I think it's obviously hugely important research to continue. I would just
there. There is Willie's one other study. I know of thy Ashton read the study. I just saw the coverage in the Washington Post that lend some support to free,
I was I was. It was not a real world data study was a is a simulator study where you they put cops in in a shooting. Simulator ran watched, their choices about who they shot, and in that case they were actually slower to shoot. Blacks aspects then
and white ones, and I get a who knows if it is a recent phenomenon, has just been internalize based on all the attention has been brought to this problem, but in any case at those are data
out there that, I think, is other data which add a ring
well here where black officers are actually more likely to shoot unarmed black suspects than white officers are which cuts against the did. The narrative of
racist policing saw. You said this earlier and I think it deserves to be underscored. The energy behind
they the animals, they eggs, the of the sense of outrage behind the black lives matter. Movement
a stop killing us we want you to stop join us is Primmest is based upon a claim
claim is that we know that people are being shot. You say why should they
we're being given the just of blacks and crime. I say that's a heart:
should answer without individualised data, which we don't have enough and so on and so on, but in any case be high.
Does the movement why the presumption that race is
at the very closely in the police officers decision
to use deadly, forcing their encounters with citizens that, in effect the counterfactual.
That's being entertained? Is? Is this person?
had been white. They wouldn't have been killed so take a very graphic example to mere rice. As the twelve year old death by police and Cleveland in a park playing with a toy gun,
that a police presumably mistook to be real and they took his life.
Some of the matter is had he been a white boy, twelve years old in exactly the same circumstance, he wouldn't have been killed.
Now, as a social sciences. I recognise that question. I
recognize it because of the difficulty of being able to give a valid statistical answer to it, because
no one will ever live in parallel universe in which the suspects in these particular instance,
Were you know, by an experiment
sometimes black, sometimes white, and we see what the policeman
I mean you know me you're, a kind of random assignment of people to a treatment and control we observe in.
We can draw conclusions from what we see that statistically, vow
nobody lives in parallel universe and the problem
drawing a valid statistical instruments about a question like that when we have imperfect day-
and we move in a non experimental world, isn't it
a huge problem,
spoken as a social sciences.
We don't have good data to draw statistical conclusions, but we do have the videotape evidence
we do have the recordings on the cell phones of could chick humor incidences of them anecdotes, you
did out correctly that one thousand people are killed by the police in this country every year. One thousand we
a dozen videos. We have a thousand people killed. We have a desert, let's make it fifty vessels. We have fifty videos, we have a thousand people killed, I'm so what we ve got our crops we ve got
Oh anecdotes, you ve got a sensational wised cases, perhaps their jerry Peer, perhaps do not representative.
It's the most. Egregious cases are the only ones that come to our attention.
Should we have a national narrative leading to a movement leading to large demonstrations in dozens of cities across the country meeting in some instances to violent retaliatory actions are not blaming them on the movement of the saying it happens in the context in which this kind of discussion is ongoing, driven by anecdotes, an eye tethered for,
a rigorous and systematic investigation of said
evidence is available to us that attempts at least to be comprehensive, and today
with the universe and not with the cherry pick cases
as a social scientist, I want to say no
an observer of culture and politics. I would say that it is very hard to keep the narrative in the box once it gets out of the box once it becomes from coming to people what they said.
Making analogies with slave.
Suppressions, and you know american Citys in the nineteen thirty forty cents fifties, and they start saying this is a part of a very old american story once we
The time has called loose on a dozen cases. Origin
buttress by by all take recordings and such
takes on a life of its own and a matter of grave concern to me that
serious. Political consequences can flow from circulation
the sector. Perhaps you might very well
I am very worried about this
Well, I I worry that black lives matter if it got all these
engine that it wants. It could set race relations back in this country, a generation
because because in August I am not aware of everything that is said under
The banner of black lives matter, and there could be some highly rational, really impeccable
bull advocating under under the you know in the stream of this movement, but from what I've seen it strikes me much of it and send him by seen it,
filtered to me through the left wing media. That is largely, if not entirely sympathetic to the movement
Most of what I have seen said in particular about these scene of these videos and the cases about what Europe of which we don't have videos but which have been well described like that. The Michael Brown shooting most has struck
me as dangerously and offensively irrational
and so I'm here is a core issue for me, these cases run the full gamut of police now
seasons and culpability on the one and two completely predicted
and even rational use of forests on the other and everything in between
So, on the one hand, you have cops, who are quite obviously guilty of murder, knowing whether from right
says I'm or some other derange motive, and I would put Walter Scott and
Kwan Mcdonald, those shootings there. These cops to my eye clear
we should never have been given a gun in a badge and they belong in prison and if, if I'm not mistaken, the cop
involved in those shootings are actually being prosecuted for murder, so that that the system is appears to be working in the right direction,
was cases, but on the other end you have legitimate uses, a force that
would have happened. Ninety nine times out of a hundred in the presence of any sane, cop and race,
early had nothing to do with it, and I would put the Michael Brown case pretty close to that far tale of on the continuum
and here we have a video of that, but the facts as reported suggest that he attacked a police officer and was trying to get his gun. Now, if you're trying to get a cops gun
it is only rational for him to believe that you intend to kill him with it and whatever the color of your skin you're going to get shot? And if you, if you don't get shot
because you got very lucky either, because the cop had amazing hand to hand skills needed just decided to spare your life or
because there were enough cops on hand to physically
for you without requiring lethal force. In the rest of these cases, you have almost
every variety of incompetence and bad luck and poor training and just basic human chaos
put you know that all these recent ones I gave the Castillo and in and out and sterling and frankly, even put the
Eric Garner case somewhere in the middle here. In these cases, the three I just mentioned are told
we the totally unlike the extremes but their importantly different from one another. Two, because I mean one important thing to point out as in some of these videos, the video record itself can be
found the misleading, because some start after this,
shooting occurred in recent. You simply simply don't know what precipitated it and some that show the shooting dont show you what the cops himself saw unsafe.
Had you can't really judge whether was rational for them to feel that their lives were in danger. So the range of these cases, ethically
and as a matter of police procedure is almost as wide as can be imagined, and then you throw tray on
art and in their there, where the guy who shot him wasn't even a cop and- and it wasn't even arguably wasn't even white right and yet all these cases are spoken about in the same breath as in
tolerable examples of murderous racism on on the part of the police side it, but my problem
and again it doesn't subsume everything black lives matter is doing, but my problem with this is the kind of this the moral core of the movement. As far as I can tell
and these claims are not only inaccurate and unfair. They did. They seem frankly dangerous to me. Ok, that's a lot
is limited. Maybe we're ran over five minutes is all I think I need to respond at first
likewise matter is not one thing you know it
It's a aggregate,
As you know,.
Fairly large number of loosely connected.
Initiative, sand and movement
better on guy.
And saw its
be a little ragged around the edges, and
and you said your show that there are you prepared to believe that there is some decent upstanding sensible.
People were involved, and I I don't know the movement as well as I might, but from what I know.
That certainly true there are some decent upstanding so
rational people on lower involved
The second thing I would say is that, and perhaps should make a concession in the January two thousand and fifteen Boston Review all that
application of literary and political magazine published out of Boston, how the boss
with you. I have a piece
so Disan Matter, Michael Brow,
and therein also salute the police officer, I'm in
I say, Michael Brown- is no Rosa parks,
and he's no limit to either what I mean.
By that is no Rosa parts, Rosa parks
the woman who refused to give up her seat on a bus in Alabama and started an effect in the summer
rights movement with the subsequent protest.
In Montgomery Alabama. Our the bus boycott is all about
irrigation and as far as in some
it as the mother of the civil rights movement.
Michael Ground is now was a parts enabling it to say. Please, dont use this case as the template.
One which to try to build a national movements? Duration, justice,
The reason I was saying that in that peace, that's January, two thousand and fifteen
reason I was saying it was precisely because I thought you know
was called the ball in what happened?
as we know, to separate the investigations coming to the same conclusion, the local authority
these and the federal government was looked at that and concluded that the officer it acted reason.
Only under the old red implied by that certain sand. So please don't
make a movement at this end, no image to either in it too was the victim.
Emerging in the nineteen societies in the south.
They became all celebrated cases. Wall, racist violence against black people.
His body- was
swayed for public viewing a casket, even though it was partly decompose because he had been
murdered and then buried.
It was a good thing to be so easily.
Celebrated case and saying you know,
Michael Brown has described it as best. We understand those facts. I try to sell to the police officer, try to take us weapon in placing police officers
service life? Where I got you know treatment?
action to better
I described that, in order to try to put my finger on a phenomenon, you say, irrationality
you say these cases are different across the desert.
You say that it's dangerous and disconcerting that people with abrogate such cases into a generic indictment and then now a movement on the desolate. Am I agree with that
On the other hand, it would appear to me that if we were to step back as social analyse and just
Try to understand the dynamics of the phenomenon. We recognise that you know
the kind of logic on me, the movement, a movement,
of its own momentum that the appropriate.
Duration of these very cases.
In writing of important differences between them
and the suppression of specific factual women
The guy George similar men who shot
Martin in Florida was not why.
He was like, Tino background
You know he was a
when you buy a jury of their spears after they concluded that he had acted in all
of his life
people will say, while he should never been following travelling by the same place on paragraphs to credit backward
that doesn't change the fact that, in the end, that encounter a jury that look carefully at the way these banks or these up,
These inconvenient details about these various cases will be suppressed:
in the interests of affirming a narrative, the chase fits the narrative, not the fact
said. The the narrative has a momentum and traders,
integrity? I use the word in inverted commas of its own people are looking for.
Evidence of racist. They dont trust
the proceedings to be authorized tribunals and software that attempt to assess the facts.
We all know, don't we
the police lie? Why should I believe the outcome of any particular?
Jerry, they dont inside the guy, applied to choke holding.
Eric gonna case no one's gonna tell
Why is the man resisting arrest in the first place? It merely comply, do incarnate
was ended on a Monday manner
we're just gonna Bobby.
The idea that well, the cop was attending
the control and a situation. Perhaps he should have been using the Togo, but certainly didn't attempt to maintain the cure anybody
the narrative has such a power of its own. Then these these features are going to be suppressed, and indeed anybody raises them. Even a black.
So I myself will be suspect
Don't you know that guy dwelling on that kind of detail, you're actually under cutting our effort to get justice for our people. One thing I see in these
these videos in general on this. Just this is I've, seen a lot of these videos and its form.
Black or ass white arrests and I've trained with police officers. I can see this from the other side.
And the overwhelming fact that comes through in these encounters that people don't understand how to behave around cop so as to keep themselves safe. You mention resisting arrest, married people have to stop resisting arrest and they have to understand
How the forest continuum looks from from a cops, I view and- and so this is a bit of a public service announcement. I feel like, if you take nothing else from this and of the podcast. This is something you can take which will actually keep you safer and I think
so something that black lives matter should be teaching explicitly when you put your hands on a cop when you're ready-
Selina, cop or grabbing him or pushing him were striking him. You are very likely to get shot
the color of your skin, because when you're with a cop there's a gun out in the open right and any physical struggle has to be perceived by him as a fight for the gun and again, a cop doesn't know what you're going to do. If you physically overpower him
and he has to assume the worst and most cops or not so confident in their ability to physically control a person without shooting him and for good reason. Because
actually not so well trained at that and their continually confronting
people who are bigger than them or younger and more athletic or more aggressive, and they do not have that they're, not superheroes. These are people just ordinary people.
With surprisingly little training, and once things turn physical, they really that
can't afford and also- and this is again something that people are totally confused about- they think that if they see a video
somebody you know trying to punch cop in the face and
for the persons unarmed, while in the cop should just be punching back
right in any use of deadly forces unwarranted, but that is just insanity. It is not the cops job to be the best Bear Knuckle Box or on earth right. He can't afford to get hit in the head and risk getting knocked out, because there again there's a gun on the table
and this is the cops perception of the world and it is, it is a justifiable.
I am given the dynamics of human violence and isn't it.
As a part in your podcast with with Rajiv set, they were a fella. You guys we're talking past one another a little bit on this point,
I recommend people see that podcast cause it was. It was very valuable and on many points, but on this point, so he was totally correct to insist that you should be able to be rude to a cop and our society without being physically punished, for it right much less killed,
and I think, he's totally right to think that is a measure of a civilised society. The cops don't start beating you just because you ve been disrespect,
but you were right to insist that people shouldn't be rude, two cops because it's totally unwise and indefensible
totally right you. What you want to be respectful to a cop, because you don't want things to escalate and again receive, is right in saying that they shouldn't escalate, based on anything you might say, and if they do escalate. It's the fault of the cop
and on aside he's right to think that the cops job is to have a very thick skin and be totally proof
national in his dealings with the public, but on your side.
Did you read? You really want to increase the risk to your own life by testing the emotional maturity of the guy with a gun know. You you don't want to do that,
and I, in my view you have to deal with a cop like he's a.
Lethal robot, who could malfunction at any time? And what I see in these videos is people who
I have no idea what the implications of grabbing a cop pushing a copper is
doing whatever their doing to resist arrest and just think about this. It's never up to you
you whether or not you should be arrested, and how could it be? How could it ever be
it is a matter that you know that you didn't do anything wrong. How could that fact be effectively community
added by you, are not following police commands, unless you called the cop yourself
actually never know what situation you're in with a cop you dont know if I'm walking down the street, I dont know that a cop didn't just get a call that
some guy who looks like Ben Stiller committed and armed robbery, and he comes up to me.
No, I didn't do anything I don't know, but I dont know what's in the cops head, so so, how am I the best?
courage of whether or not I need to be arrested, so this is the time to find out what's going on again, this is I'm sorry for the public service announcement, but this is where I think really important for people understand the time
to find out. What's going on the time to complain about racist cops, the time to punish them. The time to go ballistic is after cooperating at the
these station with your lawyer right, that's the time to rectify
all the problems in the system and
all the bear and to punish all the bad cops which are surely out there, but do not comply
heat of the moment or the guy with the guy
is issuing command. That is wrong
is in your risk astronomically, and it's it's something that the people intuitively it seems just do not understand.
That was a long statement sand and I think it worth every minute of it. I am I couldn't
Remember what you said, and I will try to be people who said I respect
Colloquy week, my friend Reggie Seti you're right. I do think we were talking
not only was making your point, which is that
on wise, not to comply with a police officer?
is when you are in a situation in which is TAT all
resting. You were nay arrest. You all detaining you or whatever it might be. He may
we're doing so I fairly, but you should not attempt to resolve that
few, by resisting on
ah, yes, said: the prosecution of that situation
you should do it in another context. I certainly agree with that. As a matter of prudence, but
was also making the as a citizen
one has an obligation to avoid that conflict with the police officer.
Notwithstanding the fact that the may have made a mistake,
that's: civility: interaction with Bob duly constituted
conditions of authority in the society that are there on your behalf,
a duty of citizenship. I was making their client. You may not agree with that, but it involves making that clear. That's leaving
What I really want to say- which is that for me,
go whom the institution,
the police authority have lost legitimacy in their minds. They're not gonna, be compelled by
the observation that one has a duty to
comply? They made
he persuaded by the observation that its unwise not comply, but there
still be was export in certain
dance and which may be an internal resettlement. I'm I'm thinking of
one of these cases. All I mentioned during my precision Rajiv
the man who was found dead in her jail cell
evidently of suicide, all that's disputed.
Who gets into an obligation, would resolve certain puzzles
for minor traffic violation
people should it be pulled over just because they change leaves out signalling it. That's harassment or person might say
she blue smoke in the police officers face. It tells you to put the cigarette out and she doesn't cry he loses-
school. Maybe he should not have lost the school. Maybe you should have been more temperate in the circumstance, but she's been,
walking actions are being arrested. Criminals.
Junior while the celebrated case
Harvard professor arrested on historic steps, a bridging into his own house, because it gets into an education.
We saw for certain been called to the scene, suspecting that a burglary might be in
as progress and asked him to produce idea. He doesn't respond to the police.
The and steady brace braids the police officers singling out for attention because he's black he ends up in handcuffs and being taken to the police station,
all the president of the United States even has the way in the case, but these cases where I would say that the background contempt
institutions of authority associated with simply being black in America and thinking
of police is not necessarily being silly to you. Thinking that the profiling, you
Hang in there, birds singled you out for attention needs
what kind of contempt district
refusal to honour all the bob or
horsemen officer in the circumstance and- and I can of course backfire on people
receives response to me, you know, was to say that was too
just that I wanted black people to be passive and survival interactions with police office,
and he was saying why shouldn't those I have two more themselves to the pollution of be passive and survival us if it causes
He was wearing a uniform course. I didn't castle passivity,
I counsel civility, but the perception
that, even at the civility as a kind of passivity, his mouth
likely to arise in the mind of somebody who represents the very fact that the presence of the police officer in the first place and things that Johnny
Eric the police. The cart evidence
severe crisis you're asking me to be civil in a way. I want to show my consent as a reaction to what I believe to be the contempt with the officers toward me
justification, but it may be, at least in part and explanation for why so many people don't follow you're very sage, advise well
listen glam. Now, mindful of just how dinner,
then, with your time, because I ve stolen at least fifteen minutes more than we had budgeted, and I just what I want is one say: it's been really a great pleasure and privilege to have you on the podcast, and I hope is just the first of many conversations. We have buy Skype or in person
and just to close, please tell people where they can find more of your work on line you, your twitter, handle on your website in particular. Ok, my website is the Economics Department at Brown. Why don't I send you this information in a male and then you can. I should live in no my twitter hand of God. Forgive me please. I put it on my on my blog,
this will be what, wherever this pike ass his embedded,
My website you'll find how you can find out.
About land on line and it my signature from my email to you, Samuel Finder. You are also by also my website bright, red, listen gland thanks again, Sir, is really been right.
Take your SAM. I really enjoyed talking to you. We have to find a happier subject. Next will do
if you find this pancakes
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Transcript generated on 2020-03-24.