In this episode of the Making Sense podcast, Sam Harris speaks with Ayaan Hirsi Ali about Islamism, the migrant crisis in Europe, and other topics.
SUBSCRIBE to listen to the rest of this episode and gain access to all full-length episodes of the podcast at samharris.org/subscribe.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Today, I'll speaking with eye on her sally
I am now will be known to many of you, but for those who don't know her, she was
born in Somalia in nineteen sixty nine. She was the daughter of aid
political opponent of the somali dictatorship and
she lived in exile, moving to Sally
maybe I need the European in Kenya and like ninety
percent of somali girls. She was subjected to F Gm euphemistically called female circumcision and came from aim a quite blinkered context,
of islamic oppression and then in a few short years, really just recapitulated these
all enlightenment project. In her own life, she escaped a forced marriage. She was
Being sent to marry a distant cousin in Canada, and
rather than do that, she got off the plane in Frankfurt. I believe and fled to the Netherlands, where she was
asylum and then says, and
your first years in HOLLAND? She work
as a maid and in factories and quickly learn Dutch and then began studying at the university
and why not getting a masters in political science worked as a translator for some
Molly immigrants and began to witness this clash of
western liberal values and islamic culture, in this case in HOLLAND
Beneficial became a member of the dutch Parliament where she was task too
work on issues of immigration to,
is awareness about Vial
against women in our society and honour killings and genital mutilation and all the rest and then in
Two thousand and four she became.
Very well known, because her colleague who she made a film with
about the oppression of women under his Mama film. A short film entitled submission her colleague, Theo Van Gogh was murdered.
And a note
promising. The murder of eye on was pinned to his chest by his killer, and
the amazing thing- and you can read about this in Ions books in the caged virgin
an infidel and no mad and heretic the amazed
thing about her story is that it exposed just the complete inability of dutch society to deal with this problem and keepers
and ion remains a person with exquisite security concerns and most unjustly she is a frequent target of quote feminists and people on the left, who
subject to her criticism of Islam me here you have one of the most courageous people on earth
championing the rights of women and pain and extraordinary
eyes for doing so, and she's derided by people on the left as a big. It
one of the most frustrating things in my life has been to see
ion get criticized by imbeciles. As on
pleasant, as my encounter with then ass lack, was on real time my encounter with Nick Christoph of the near
times in the green room afterwards was worse, because Nick is
among the army of
seemingly enlightened liberals who can't figure out that I on is a a true feminist, icon and hero,
so in any case, I on though she
is liberal in the classical sense on almost every question has really only been supported for the most part by conservatives. In the U S, as someone fighting
human rights and the rights of women, and that has been a real disservice to her message. Nevertheless, she was voted
thousand five as one of time magazines, one hundred most influential people and she
has started the eye on her Sally Foundation,
a half foundation, Asia, a a linked to that can be found on my website, and she is just an extraordinary woman
our time was somewhat abbreviated here we had an hour to work with, but it was great to get her voice on the podcast. I now bring you,
on her Sally.
I am here what I on her Sally Ion thanks for coming on the pike. Thank you.
Much for having me gates to talk to you, as always, is greater
Excuse to talk to you
his seven year. How do you describe what you do at this point? I
describe it as it's almost like a front.
On a treadmill and never getting off. You know. For the last fifteen years I've been trying to educate the enlightened world on Islam and the threat that it poses to women to people like me, who have chosen not to believe in God to Christians too
whose even to and probably I would say mainly to those who actually are Muslims and believe in the Koran and the prophet mohammed-
I was trying to remember how we first got in touch. I think, if I'm not mistaken,
the only time this has happened in my life
think I actually sent you a piece of fan. Mail use area, be my letter here, a beautiful letter in your book and
and that's how we met here. That's that's. How I found out about youth was just after you had written, and the book was the end of it
yeah. That's amazing that you know what it now one imagines: it's just impossible to reach some one with a letter. You know you can occasionally get people the email, but I remember reading about you in the New York Times magazine and just being
totally blown away by you and your story, and then I just how I got the threat.
An address. But I,
were sending you a letter,
and that achieving a connection I was really is fantastic. That had happened. Yet it was it. You sent it to the parliament in the Hague
I urge parliament, I was a member then and its astounding to me today how, on that very same platform, those issues that are a decade ago. We were talking about the rights of women. We were talking about islamic extreme.
As we were talking about terrorism. How I want nothing, it seems nothing has moved forward, except what way back then were
the warnings from my side and others are now unfolding in the Netherlands and on the european continent.
If you now see how women are treated, not just move
in woman in muslim households. But how? Because of you know a lot of men coming from Africa from South Asia from the Middle EAST? How there now treating
non muslim women. It is no longer safe in the public square in Europe, in Germany, in Sweden, in the Netherlands,
it's no longer. You know the kind of safety I used to take for granted. When I remember come
in ninety ninety two to the next
really marvelling at how at one aim at night friends of mine would girls would take their bicycles him just they could go anywhere
and now that's all. I want to get
plan that I want to talk about immigration and in the migrant crisis and the future of Europe?
but before we go there, I just I want to talk a little
What about your personal story? I don't want to go into it in great depth, because you
I've done that on my blog and I will linked to that article with his podcast. So people can read that First Commerce,
we had an in your story will be pretty familiar to most of our listeners. But what do you think you,
would be doing. If your
collision with his warmest the accuracy haven't occurred? I guess I would still be in academia, probably fighting on an learning. The topics that I really care about could take time off. To do art
learn about music literature travel. I think I would lead the life of the average american woman or the average dutch woman, and in fact, before I got into this, that's exactly what I was doing. I had found a job with a think tank in Amsterdam, and I had been asked by my boss to work
The issue of immigration- and I remember complaining and say well, are you asking me to do that because I'm an immigrant I'd like to do the European Union and ever closer integration? I'm fascinated by that topic? Please let me do that and he said
can always do that, but we only want you to do immigration because it's a hot topic, so the answer to it,
Question is, I would be leading the life off. I think the average american woman or the average european woman, if it hadn't, been for nine eleven and what happened
What do you think you'd still be in government? I mean
Can I wasn't in government. I had a healthy interest in politics, but I had no plans to become a politician. I was fascinated by ideas and that's why I chose to work with his think tank. It was a social democratic, think tat.
Tom. You have to understand that ideas such as social democracy and liberalism, and all that that that was all new to me and I had this hunger of wanting to find out more and discuss in depth how a smaller place like the Netherlands was able to be so wealthy and to be able to be sought
table I coming I came. I grew up in Somalia. I lived in Saudi Arabia in Ethiopia in Kenya to me before a whole nation to to live in peace with one another to respect the rights of girls and women. This used to be just things up, we heard about it, wasn't real for me, and I was fascinated I still on. Don't you know how do these things come about that and now my big worry is: how can we hold onto it
Can we hold onto these freedoms and to the notion of equality, the rule of law? But how would you describe yourself politically at this point? I am still a classical level. I think I'll always remain. A classical liberal always need to explain what that means to the average American, because a liberal for an American is maybe someone on the far left or the hard left or someone who reads the nation and am believes in big government in
emphasizes justice more than liberty. I politically out describe myself, I would say Bob's pride in the middle between the two parties. There are things about the democratic party. This I do not like, and I think I've wrong and the same applies to the Republican Party. So a classical liberal, a centrist, a libertarian. I love your work on treason in that
since I think I'm I've been very stable in terms of my ideas. I have always found it alarming, and we spoke about this before that.
So many liberals ditch they're coming.
Meant to gender equality and attack you in the name of
Let your sensitivity- and I'm wondering- and this
also explains why you have been associate
It with classically conservative, think tanks
Is this change at all? Have you made any headway in on the left,
in the? U S and particular I dont want to claim any progress that we now see on the left. In admitting that Islam, as a doctrine ass, a civilization, ass, a culture, subjugate women and is in very intolerant doctrine where there is admission of that, I want to say that it must have probably comes from those people on the left was still willing,
who look at facts and allow the facts to change their minds. You not with the rise of ice is, even though there is a huge taboo in western countries on the discussion of his
you can see for yourself when verses from the Holly Koran and the practices of the prophet Mohammed applied in practice. What that looks like you get the islamic state.
Iraq and Syria. I think so many people on the left can see that now and for those who were professional people, I think they are willing to have these facts change their minds. The internet
has also helped a lot. You know Saudi Arabia is a very close society and is very difficult to see. What's going on, there and people were who were very happy to ignore what was going on. There are now finding that its extremely difficult and all this their mission work.
The door there. You know islamic missionary work that they have been propagating families the last for decades. What we are now seeing is the outcome of that and that around the world, not just in the Middle EAST you're, not my continent, the country I come from Africa groups like I'll survive in Somalia,
and book or her I'm in Nigeria, Pakistan, Bangladesh. Now you see what's going on there with all the free thinkers and free bloggers being targeted and half to death on the streets. This is a direct consequence of the propagation of practical Sunni Islam.
The people on the left canal, seeds and those who want to see and learn. I think they're changing their minds and I hope that their
alarmed enough buyers to know that
sitting around and condemning it is not enough. We must get the
frequent criticism, as I do that, and this comes from both muslim obscurantists end and their liberal apologies.
That's, U R, promulgating the same interpretation of Islam as ISIS does, as the extremists do by drawing this
linkage between ideology and behaviour and there
you're, giving it legitimacy. Obviously, the present the United States has
in this line that you really don't want to
call ISIS or any similar group
Islamic in any sense? What do you say to that? A number of things? I think the first thing is
I know that these things are well intended. I think that our President Obama
really means well, he has good intentions when he refuses to associate Islam the religion of yes, one fifth of humanity with the outcome of that religion that that when, once you apply that doctoring, that's what you see it's well intended. But what is also expressing is a lack of respect.
For Muslims as reasonable individuals. The assumption that by pretending that what we see happening
thing to do with Islam.
An assumption. I hear it very. I am trying to choose my words carefully, as I can, if you think that a human being who happens to be muslim lacks reason,
if you think that that human being will last shot in violence, if you think of that human being as a child, not mature enough to handle ideas, then you are going to talk to that human being and about that human being
In a way, I would say in exactly the same way that our president and many other western leaders talk to and talk about, mushrooms
here's where the world upside down you're doing all of this, because you want to stimulate respect,
from the non western Missouri than Non islamic public for Muslims and not to be prejudiced against them. But how can you ever achieve that when you refuse to allow them onto these platform of reason? This human beings, I believe, changed their minds not because of the gun not because of violent but through persuasion, and if you want to persuade most Muslims to reform their religion or to give up at least those parts such as jihadi schreyer, that our violent
and oppressive. You just have to be explicit about what this doctrine says. Not doing saw means you're, simply discriminating against them. You don't take them. It's the it's. The expected deserve the prejudice of low expectations
yeah and ironically, you're you're doing absolutely nothing to come
to the aid of the most vulnerable people in those communities- you're not you're, not
empowering reformers and women and everyone else who can't really fun.
Their voice, because there's no safe context in which to do it yet is incredibly
straight in to not have this talked about its frustrating, because here I am trying to say. Ok, I got out of context where my heights or compromised- and I felt that I was not in control of my life-
and in the west in the Netherlands, in here in the? U S, I have found a life where I am in control of my destiny. Now I find it my duty as you do, and I think as many many people here do, that you can't just turn away for the others, the other girls and women. Why, in that context? But how on earth can I explain the subjugation that their submitted to the child marriages, the forced marriages, the honour killings? Without talking about
the religion, the doctrine, the culture that has brought forth on that point. How do you address
rights of women say in
majority muslim countries and even in the muslim community in the west, when
Women themselves are often the oppressors release collapsed
rating in oppression. And how do you deal with someone like Dolly
which I had the hoot, who, just one on the daily show and celebrate
The head job as a sign of female empowerment
absolutely no push back. This has to be fair.
Lee Bewildering Will Durant it is. It is fairly bewildering for the liberal non Muslim who looks at this and says well
What is the reality here were being told by women in veils that this is their choice?
and that it is a sign of a colonialist arrogance to join
I that anyone wherein the veil and whether it can Afghanistan or anywhere else, he's being oppressed, the only way
to do it. The only way that I know is to talk about it to publish too you know take to public platforms to discuss it into air. What exactly it means to be forced to wear the veil both written about this a lot, and I discuss it and that's that, fortunately, again through the internet, I have found a connection with women who choose not to wear them,
they write to me. They call me they talk to me this, the half foundation and they explain they relate to my experience and they explain to me that they are not left Dollimore Guide that all these women were covering themselves from heads
the tall and who are saying that they speak for muslim woman. Dont really speak for them that if they didn't,
for their lives, if they didn't fear that they would be lost
sized in their own communities or that their parents would eat them up. Lock them up take away whatever little heights that they have. They would have spoken out themselves if they
these platforms. What would you say that to dahlia have you ever addressed dahlia or someone like her and in a public platform that, where there's video that I could point people too I've had when I just published when I just published heretic last book, I was with her.
On a discussion on empty are, and I think the way empty I didn't they first interviewed higher than the interviewed mean very
early on when I came to the? U S in two thousand and six, two thousand and seven. I was at the Brookings Institute and she and other women whether defending that he job defending
the position of women and the status of women in Islam, and saying that all the accession
that we see are exaggerated and committed by a French were not truly islamic.
I have. I have had discussions with her, but I have come to the conclusion that I dont need to convince stallion, will guide to change her mind. I need to get as many people as possible to see for themselves what is done to women in the name of Islam. I need to remind them that that treatment of women is not going to stay only within Muslim House.
House and muslim countries. When the world is globalizing as it is, and everything I've been saying, sulphur, if we see,
now in Europe there are gangs of muslim men in Sweden in Germany in Britain who,
singling out none
muslim women sometimes blonde women only
tell me how I know, that's me so genius it, but how is that not racist? How is it
what races to organise for me
and to organise themselves as gangs and only target one group of women.
On their skin color, their hair color,
a target for very similar aim of these re sexual abuse. Yeah. Do you have a sense that this is
been fairly report.
Ordered on in Europe and North or zero, a kind of politically correct suppression of
This news, because I in the initial wave would be the Cologne catastrophe-
There was never reports that that this was actually being suppressed and
people were, there was even this extreme case of some one and I believe, as the german government, some woman and in the german government had herself
had been raped by three migrants and once you
reported to the police?
you lie initially lied about their identities because she didn't want to give further cause for
for racism in her culture associating said that three
Herman men had raped her two's speak honestly about the problem there
this social impediment of understandable, especially in place like Germany, that you don't worry
to give voice to any kind of
a global animists toward immigrants or toward the end
one group of people, what's the level of
scutcheon there. I mean I'm following events
then specially in Germany right now. What I see is that these on the side of the establishment, the sort of institutions have governments such as the police, the courts, but also the press,
Is this mad idea, in my view, completely mad idea that a few call things by their name emigrant men come in and they got in groups and they harass young girls and women they have. Even there are cases of young boys been raped as well
that if they had caught honestly on that that somehow they're going to create a context of mass racism against immigration and against these immigrants, but I think you have to seek new- have to split the two issues you have to fight racism and prejudice wherever it turns up its ugly head, but it's the it's. Also, these these men come from cultures that
ah prejudiced against women, and just because they crossed the german border, it doesn't mean that they immediately become german. They could they bring with them those attitudes and customs and values and outlook on the status and position of women to you cannot sacrifice the heights of women and children in order to hold onto this falls and dangerous.
The issue of multiculturalism, which is not working. It has failed everywhere way. It's been applied, its failed completely. It hasn't
Stop racism. There are more people too
in Germany, why
anti immigrant because of the self censorship, because of fake hayslope that their passing and because of multiculturalism
Then, if we want to discuss these issues honestly and then educate the young man who come from these cultures on the heights of women
How are they ever supposed to integrate assimilating too? That society, if you cannot discuss the fact that there is a victim of free, is now pretending that it was? It was John
men, who did how another you ever going to correct this year
the story, I think in the last
days in Austria has been hurled at me in several different ways. I'm sure you have heard it they had brought some
recent migrants to a public pool as a kind of integration
and one of these men when he went to the
ass room got his hands
a ten year old boy and raped him in the stall and
when the boy came out and hysterical and complained about this
to his parents in the police were called the man
claimed to have no idea that there was anything wrong with this and he was having a quote sexual emergency hadn't, seen his wife in four months and
he was initially prosecuted but
the charges against him were dropped at. I think he's
there has been retried, because it was judged that he as a matter of culture,
old difference couldn't have known that it wasn't: okay to rape a ten year old boy analyse and
injure him and all the rest, and it is just when you take when you focus on
case like that. It just seems
like we are witnessing the suicide of civilization, absolutely anything
tells you how absurd this whole multiculturalism deal is so a ten year old boy has his life destroyed completely
soon after this and a twenty year old man from Iraq who rapes him is pardoned in caught on the grounds that he didn't understand what the boy was talking about, and I believe that this can
it was in Austria you're, but it's not only in Austria and in Germany it is the scandinavian countries.
In fact, in Norway they ve started classes in an initial
if by immigrant men, for immigrant men to educate them on
sexuality and soon away to civilised and really that's what we're talking about an instead of
civilising the people who come in war
civilized we're sacrificing western civilization and its in her.
Since, in specially its children and its women to this barbarism, it's pure barbarism
before we go deeper into this now, and I think there is more to say about immigration, certainly and about the key
of Europe, and I also want to reflect on on U S politics in light of this concern, but I just have a question about
and this is the Sunday I really struggle with, because, as you know, I spent a lot of time criticising Islam.
Islamism and its spread
and yet I am very much
do you know a liberal in and certainly in the classical sense? And don't worry
to be aligned at all, with the paranoid fringe of the right. So, given it there's a conspiracy,
among Islamists to spread the accuracy
at an end and to use the norms and institutions of open societies to their advantage. You know there's no question that this
I mean it's. Roman volleys son was not a conspiracy, is a very open funds so that they are years very well organised well financed wise. It's a conspiracy.
Plain sight. Yes, it's a in agenda, but then there are, there are more and less clever instances
this, where they, where you have people, pretend
deem to be more liberal than they in fact are some.
Wondering, and then there's this other fact which we have just begun to describe, which is not so much Islamism, but just radically different colors
RO norms, which are in collusion with the nature of a global civil society and its norms,
How can we be on our guard against this? How can we resist this? How can we call attention to this? Without chips?
over into the kinds of conspiracy thinking that
find on the right
is the line between legitimate.
Concern and paranoia facts, and we need to protect, not see it if I'm paramount and I'm accusing people of things that don't exist and that are not there I have to,
that platform, where you can correct me, and you can say no, you ve got it all wrong here. The facts and
What we are doing now in the west, including me,
United States. Today,
to see the control of the platform of ideas.
We are self sensing were introducing notions of hate law.
What is that understood
what is missing people who bring these things are so the I think that most
import them many ways, but the most important way to protect ourselves from
this onslaught of Islamism and cultural message? Any intolerance is by protecting the platform. The place were of exchange of ideas that takes you stretch the rule of law, because some you and I have talked a lot about this- the Islamists wants to make use and abuse the freedom of speech the freedom of religion, freedom of Association, all of these freedoms, but when their critics use their freedom to show the world what they're doing they threatened with violence. So the most important thing that our government and our governments need to do is to protect us. That's the rule of law to protect us so that we can have these open disk
since, but we were not doing that what the government is doing exactly the opposite, with constantly appeasing them and obliging them and then coming up with these crazy idea of self censorship, then what
you do what they do
posing, but similarly heavy handed efforts to legislate so, for instance, like the bricks
a ban in France yeah. What what? What was it? What was your position on that? My position is
its absurd? We you dont, have to bring
legislation into when you don't
wants to have that. I really don't. I was a politician. I was a legislator and we fully.
Stood that making laws
solve all social problems. Some of these issues have to be debated. Honestly, you have to educate people from
but that is a national socialism- remember communism when Hitler and his people were defeated. The next thing that the european citizens and the Germans
was to educate their public on why the ideas that Hitler espoused were bad
that's why they still fear white supremacy and the ideology of white supremacy. But white supremacy was defeated afterwards and has forever remained a fringe because we teach our kids from the time
There are four or five until we're all beyond university, that that type of prejudice leads to genocide is leads to horrors
it's awful. Why can't we do that and discuss openly other ideas with similar outcomes. Only because
They belong to a minor.
Pretty and when we talk about minorities in a world as globalized as this, I wonder who is the minority here? How do you
the future of Europe at this point? A future of here
I mean that it is the people of Europe are standing up against this the end they are forming political parties. There forming organizations
even when newspapers refused the mainstream media refuses to carry some of these stories. People talk about it if you don't,
and he I'm going to get myself again into trouble, but must political,
and this will tell you that when you stifle descent, when you stifle descent, there is a very high chance that people will turn to political violence. So with multiculturalism, with this self censorship, with the elites completely ignoring the needs of the citizens that elected them, they are creating the context for a civil war. In France, people funds has been in a state of emergency since November thirteen last year. It's almost there
now people dont know that they forget that in France, people openly talk about civil war. Walk me through Western Europe for a moment. How would you rank or other
problem in countries like France,
in Germany in and HOLLAND and the UK, yet you have a sense of the differences among them. The lodge at the scale of muslim immigrants in a country. The bigger the problems then combine that with the more restrictive a country is or has become, the mob politically correct. It is the more free speech is restricted. The higher the livelihood of violence so take a country like Switzerland.
They do have a considerable number of muslim immigrants, but they also have a system where they allow the population to weigh in on almost everything and anything, and to this day Switzerland is, I think,
he's like it. It's Switzerland will have the most in this. This is all very relative, but the most assimilated number of muslim immigrants- and they have, I think the least slightly- would of violence irruption there, a country like France, on the other hand,
or Sweden. I worry a lot about Sweden, because this
censorship has reached such an extreme hype and the immigrants who as diverse as can be,
but the ones were refusing to assimilate the ones who are causing problems are getting away too frequently with such
in my view, enormous crimes as creeps Dunk gang rapes of robberies. I mean it's clean.
And people are now doing what Americans usually do, which
their buying guns that arming themselves. This is this reports. In Sweden, people are getting gun licences to protect themselves because their own government
I want to seize on something you just said about the the correlation between the percentage of
Muslims in the population and the site.
If the problem put that
our moral obligation to
respond to some profoundly
he's in luck in our world
people, who are through no fault of their own living,
in the hell realm of Syria and Iraq at this moment,
and trying to get out
You know many of them are fleeing ISIS, having no sympathy for their project,
They are part of this. This way
of migration, which is appointed in all directions
but mostly towards Europe at the moment, and I mean
to say your heart breaks for many of these people
certainly all the people who are not Islam,
firing, rapists and and people who will
resist assimilating at any cost, what do you do with the fact that there is
May I again that you know that you can only that people as well as you can bet them, and obviously Europe, given
the sooner may of people that arrived has not done a good
vetting at all. What should be done?
Syria and the migrant crisis in
regular. And what and how do you view the immigration
because when I that, when I think of the impulse to keep Muslim,
out of the United States say
something I understand as impractical as it is. I certainly understand that desire
given the concerns, but what
when I think about that, I immediately think about keeping someone like you out right or your
we were one of these migrants in another context,
and you know you are is as far as I'm concerned, you know one of the most
Important people in your generation in a year
my only friend who I always described,
my friend, and hero and theirs,
exaggeration, in that at all so tough
your thoughts on on immigration, given the fact that, as they propose
sure of Muslims in a society grows all.
These problems, whatever powers
centage of of Muslims are jihadis less that we can make it a tiny, eight percent, as you want, and whatever larger
Santa Jarred Islamists, and we
make that a very tiny percentage
and whatever per cent.
Which are conservative in their attitudes so as to be hostile
to freedom of speech
rights of women and and everything else it lie the core.
Our values. The moment you begin to school
up these percentages of just one percent-
of Muslims in any society. You will begin to scale of necessity, the smaller percentages of people who will now
assimilate, just tell me how you
think about that problem, going forward both for the for Europe and for the u
written about the sum, and I think step. One would obviously be to have an honest and open discussion, because if you don't have all the facts on the table and if you do not discuss it as openly as you should not be able to design policies that address this enormous problem, mitten enormous problem, it's a problem of foreign policy on our side view ass, I think, should take the leadership in this. I don't think it's fair listing too. So we're going to take.
Everyone was affected by civil war from the Middle EAST and bring them into the west. It is simply not realistic because of the scale of the problem.
Having said all of that, I think that closed,
the doors to all immigrants or to all Muslims is morally wrong. I wrote an article for a german paper distinguishing between four types of immigrants, but
hold the first one and adapter someone who comes in with the intention of acquiring a better life for himself or herself and comes
the intention of abiding by the laws of the host society and goes about learning what he or she needs to learn and find a job. The adapter assimilate
and I know that there are because I know other immigrants who came in with me in ninety. Ninety two went down the same path. Then there's a second type of immigrant and I call I've given that immigrants the label,
menace. It's the young man for whatever reason who either dropped out of school,
forever, isn't just end up becoming a menace crime. Grime crape, you know
prison imprison out caught in caught out, never contributes to society only takes then there is a third group. The fundamentalist or the fanatic really is the word.
Who believes that the host society should convert to Islam and live by Sharia LAW and then number four
for a lack of a better label. I call them the posters
he's a large group of people who have no intent
to harm anyone, but because Europe, an increasingly the United States, provide these welfare entitlements they
come to get that and then their relatives who are here say you know I like
Vienna and I have a house and I have a kind I have this and I hope that an they dont work. So if you take these four categories of immigrants- and maybe you can make five or ten categories- but I have to say
I've been watching this problem for a while, and I come to these four types of off before profiles of say an individual immigrant. You can then say: ok,
This is the experience we have now. We now know that there are these four groups. We can develop an immigration plan that allows in the first group the adapters and keeps out the other three, but you can't you can develop any kind of em if you're not honest with yourself about
the problems and the magnitude of these problems in many of these countries, you're not allowed to associate immigrants who are muslim with the things that they do, that make the populations,
very angry, those I'm going to do in the name of their religion so hope
How can you get to help you solve the problem? How can you addressed the problem if you self sense in that way, and how can you tell the difference between the adapters who I think we should be helping and we should be bringing in and we should be rescuing from the fanatical
two: do you know what the process of vat in looks like now?
and you have a say
of how much better it could be a man. Do you know how it how it isn't, estates purses Europe, so there are different. You know how complex this problem is an especially in Europe right now in
Europe they make a distinction between asylum seekers, refugees and economic migrants and the way they do that is by interviewing, but individual immigrants as they come in
you get questions like. Why are you here? Where do you come from? You know the usual in take questions and based on that, because in Europe most of these,
begun seventeen. Ninety nine percent of them simply come in and ask for asylum. So you start without status of being an asylum seeker,
A small group of people who were resettled from refugee camps around the world and every country takes a certain number of people. I think a capital United Sticks. United States takes quite a lot, but these systems of vetting failed because you
can be in a refugee camp between the border of Kenya and Somalia or between you not say you have fled Syria, and you happen to be in Jordan or in part of Iraq. You can be interested
She comes there and you can still be a fanatic. In fact, if you look at the guy who attempted,
several bombings in New York, New Jersey, the other day he came here
The child. His father was a refugee from Afghanistan. So it's you can't. I dont think that you can vat people based only on the level of suffering that they are exposed to
that was a dangerous that their exposed to were seen were learning from experience that that doesn't always work. It doesn't always walk out that way, and in fact I want to argue if you want to bring in people
And you want them
to assimilate. You have to negotiate with them at that stage of entry.
That will only let you into the allow you into the country if you ensure preparedness to assimilate
as you allow people in your test them on that you have a contract. You come here into safety and make something off your life, but in exchange you abide by the law and you respect the values and the norms
of our country. Where seems to me that would catch people
Are they non fanatics emitted as this would catch people who are just have
social norms based on their religion and based on their culture. That
they are not willing to relinquish, and then they than they would give some
of that through this intake process, but if you have some one who is actually
jihadist. You know someone who is an ISIS fighter who
deciding to come to the west?
jihad. It would seem
pretty easy to deceive people through this process and despair.
Tend to be a moderate or even a unbeliever. You are right about that and we ve seen a number of cases where fanatics jihadists plotting a terrorist act. They shape their beds day, drink alcohol day day
openly do things to take attention away from themselves so that they can sneak in, but most of these guys mainly guys and gulls tool,
people who have lived in Europe went to join ISIS
and then on their way back, so they know exactly how they should behave in order not to draw attention on themselves. It's a hell of a small group and I think, as with every problem we can
one step ahead of them. This is a determined enemy and they are for the moment,
here to stay and the number of Islamists who are nonviolent but to at some point,
will tend to violence, is so large in the world that I think it is going to take at least a generation or two before we can fully address that issue, but censorship, self censorship and trying to fool the general public is not going to make this
problem go away so ass. You are getting close to our starting point at this point, but I don't think I've heard you come
bent on the election in the U S, and I have been extremely hard on Trump
decided. I wanted to completely stay out of it, because the issues that I address the Vatican is heights of women. They transcend both parties to the UN
to oppose Donald Trump really as unfit for the presidency, as I have is to support.
Hillary Clinton, no matter how timidly in-
no matter how many caveats you, you issue, you either that that really is the only thing standing between us and a Trump presidency, but what
find, is there are many people in my audience who are essentially single?
few voters who are worried about the very topic we are talking about, perhaps above all
and so Hilary his desire to increase immigration
Norton, to increase the refugees from Syria from ten thousand to sixty five thousand often discuss
I'd accurately as a five hundred fifty percent increase that
held up as a very worrying sign, whom.
Aberdeen her claws.
Adviser and her connection too
on mother, whose apparently quite the doctrinaire islamist
That is held up as a worry, worrying sign, and you can
go down our rabbit hall and hereabout conspiracies that include.
Hilary is essentially a chauffeur for the Saudis and in fact, that the Clinton Foundation is taken money from all the Gulf states. You know it in two,
tens of millions of dollars the network,
out of all of that, is that people think
what they think it is a little incoherent, because they also think that she's too much of a warmonger she's, too Hocker she's she's, to include
to get us into yet another war where we were going to kill more muslim so
On the one hand there there arguing that she is an ally of Islamists and jihadis.
And then on the other, that cheese too likely to kill too many of them
It doesn't make much sense, but I'm wondering what's just take the case of whom Aberdeen Dish
were you at all and the like. Are we going into the land of right wing crackpot
ray to worry about her affiliations with
Herman and was behind all that. I think people who raised the question- and this is not only forgetting Hillary Clinton but also that President Obama, President Bush nine eleven came and the U S. Government was looking for advisers on Islam, one Muslims or national security, and right now the people in place. It's not one particular candidate. Why, I think is worse than
the other, the people that we, whose advice we listened to and we ve been listening to our young people- are the wrong people to what degree to truly said,
Mr Islamists, who, who are trying to spread the Accra
or just apology
so are just not willing to speak honestly about the problem that Muslims, whom we consult. The United States government consults many of them.
I do have an agenda of doubt
islamic zation. Think of you. We just talked about
Tell you what I had only in the interview she was. You know one of several other advisers to President Obama. There are people who advised President Bush on the grounds that they spoke for Muslims and then ended
in prison or who and others same thing, the Muslim Brotherhood. You know the Council of American Islamic Relations, Muslims
This is a hall web of individuals
and organizations that are tied to the Muslim Brotherhood or came forth out of them was an umbrella who'd who hate advisers to us
element- and that is not so much- I wouldn't say that that is the problem of one particular candidate. I think it is a problem of most Americans. Dont know that much about Islam, but
those in government, especially because they put this big taboo on islamic doctrine,
on Sharia LAW when she had etc for themselves. They can't tell the difference between an Islamist with an agenda to.
Spread Islamism in the? U S and one who isn't that way?
there are many Muslims here were patriotically Americans who would love to help our government who have served in various capacities, one not consulted by the,
because some of those people inside the government's limbs were consulted did it. They say. People like fifty gesture or us
No money- I don't know if you know these individuals are no answer.
We are united and should adjust it served in the
navy, but these are both between Judy they're. Both Muslims were not consulted by government,
They can solve. Dleam go ahead and the people from Asia.
What is the role that care is played has been very insidious minutes today. The fact that every time
something happens. Cnn decides that the true spokesmen for
the Muslim community in the? U S is whoever them.
Presented of carers at the moment, that is a a worrying trend and in its
that is its embedded. It's not something that you can. You know that you can just time to pay,
You have to go really through the entire government bureaucracy to pray
out the men and women with an islamist agenda, but
Do that you didn't have to start calling things by the name. That's what's our government doesn't want to do and because of that, this conspiracy theories take on a life of their own, whom I begin to me, does not
like an islamist know, did you did you see the documentary wiener? No sir, celebrate
in, watching that I just came away feeling that
if she's, an Islamist she's, actually the best actress on
that seems unlikely.
No? I dont think whom a dinner is an Islamist in the closet, but I think if we could have an honest discussion about
You know how her mother is tied to brotherhood types and what would be in it for her mother and her circle of friends and the people.
With that agenda, to influence. U S. Government, I think that's a legitimate question, but
What I know of Islam, a woman
we're matters, a jewish man doesn't where the veil and who is, to all intents and purposes, really doesn't led a muslim slife. I don't put high endanger, but she doesn't appear to me as an Islamist. I know you're up against your schedule for the decision that has been enough. This is great to get Europe.
Expertise on this question at this moment is obviously a pleasure to hear your voice same here. It's a pleasure to hear your voice and please pass my love to you,
I will. I will likewise
kay- or that was I on her sally,
and I hope you got a sensitive just what a good person she is an
Let her focuses on the rights of women and on human freedom. Globally,
hope. You noticed that she said
that she thought we have a moral obligation to bring in muslim refugees who we can vat. I doubt you
checked it in anything. She said a hatred for groups of people or really any view that could be construed as as
bigotry a tree. So if you got a sense of eye over the course
as our you will appreciate
DE arranged the left has become ethically speaking in the West Bank
As the very day we recorded this conversation,
Southern poverty law centre, this flagship institution to combat,
White supremacist hate groups: this is the
organization started by majorities at his sued, the cooks, clan and,
other NEO Nazi groups, it is relied upon by journal.
To summarize the nefarious work of white supremacist and other hate groups in the? U S, this institution today
just declared ion and
friend margin hours. I wrote my book Islam and the future of tolerance with just declared both of them along with, I think, thirteen other people-
to be anti muslim extremists. Action
the grouping them alongside groups like the KKK. This is how crazy the apologetically for Islam
grown and the self destructive it is people's reputations.
Google search on ion and moderate right now returns this judgment about them
that their merchants of hate, unbelievable.
And the person
sponsible. For this
the southern Poverty LAW centre,
A man named Mark Protocol has been interviewed, a futile
times in the Atlantic and elsewhere, and he is totally
mug and unrepentant doesn't even care
to investigate whether he got
this wrong and you can see where he got it, because the reasons they give for
climbing I e on and margin in this way are the directorate
out of dishonest hit pieces? There were
about them in the past and a litany of
large is that you have already been answered for both of them,
and it should go without saying that being categorized in this way,
literally lumped in with NEO Nazis and the K K,
raises ions and modred security concerns
concerns. No doubt of everyone on that list is an app
Modern ion remain too the bravest and most ethical people out there.
And this only proves just how important it is that we talk about these things honestly, that we talk about religion
in politics and the power of ideas and the actual
motivations of people in this world honestly
and margin I honour doing that impeccably
whenever I can do to support their voices, I will continue to do once again
Thank you for listening. If you find this pancakes
believe there are many ways you can support it. You can review
I tunes or wherever whoever happens to listen to it. You can share it on
comedian with your friends, you can blog about it or discuss it on your own podcast or you can support it directly and you can do this by subscribing through my website as samharris dot org and there you'll find subscriber only content which includes my ask me anything episodes you also get access to advance tickets to my live events as well as streaming. Video of some of these events
and he also get to hear the bonus questions from many of these interviews. All this
Transcript generated on 2020-03-24.