In this episode of the Making Sense podcast, Sam Harris speaks with David Frum about the presidency of Donald Trump.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Today I will be speaking with David from david- is a senior editor of the Atlantic magazine. He was a speech rider for George Bush.
And has been well known in republican political circles for many years has written many books and he is one of trumps, most notable republican critics I wanted it
even in the pod, cast because he's obviously much more knowledgeable about government in general and end the Republican Party in particular than I am, and I wanted him to walk us through this moment in history and an just talk about what we might expect to happen in the near term here and how maybe something good might come of all this. We don't say much that will be viewed as charitable toward Trump. But if you listen to the pike, asked you'll hear that we really do our best to be even handed that doesn't painter rosy picture. You'll see, but David's conservative bona fide days are beyond dispute. That makes his opinions about tat,
and the people around him and the republican support for him all the more incisive so without further preamble? I bring you David from I am he would David from David? Thank you for coming upon cast a pleasure to be
so we ve never met. It is great to talk to have been a fan of your work for quite some time, but my appreciation for you has just gone up by
actor of ten in recent months, seeing your opposition to Trump and just imagining that in what you are
Spirits like holding the line there, so I want to get into that. I want to talk about tromp, obviously, and the state of our country and the state of the media, but the challenge for us, given that we're going to to agree so much about the problem here and given how much we each hate Trump,
the challenge is really for us to say something that could conceivably persuade someone who does not agree with us. I dont want us to just be indulging confirmation by us here.
Or just rattling around our own echo chamber, I'd like to be on our guard against, exaggerating anything, and I really wanted to say things about Trump and by the current situation that are as fully defended as possible. So with that in mind, let's just start with. Can you summarize your political background and background as a writer, so people who are less familiar with you can be up to speed shore in that death? That deserve
Precautions and thank you for the generous, welcomes, really wonderful you to say that I really appreciate it and maybe to answer your question would not getting bottleneck. Maybe after I give that introduction, maybe the post a start is like a present things, Worthing Donald Trump, saying some things that are worth here: some things that are true and worries where's. Maybe it is not right he's onto something important, but he hears my background was born.
Robin Canada and Russia. My mother was a quite well known. Canadian nab journalists, veterinary one on Clayton journalist at a host of radio, show called, as happens in the seventies, and she went on to host a program called the journal, which was
there. The CDC make any broadcasting corporations main late night face to face television, torture in the night and eightys. She died. Ninety ninety two eight eight, fifty four, I'm an extraordinary career
and much must have a huge influence on me. I'm I graduate from college in eighteen, eighty two and I was very caught up in the politics of that time. The class of eighteen. Eighty two was miserable, grown up the chaos in the seventies caught up.
Reagan moment- and I think, to this day we are probably the most republican oriented cohort of people were not absolutely ought
and allows a huge influence on the I've worked for many years
magazines? Over the years national viewers on the editorial page, the Wall Street Journal were concerned,
think tanks at the American Enterprise Institute and an attitude and to catch a story. I will skip over mostly earlier passwords cash strapped into the more recent times in two thousand
and want to join the staff of Georgia.
With White House speechwriter. There were two years after that I departed wrote some books
right. Well. What I read history, the night seventies called how we got here that was published. Just before I wanted to government. I wrote a memoir my pushed on average about epochs altogether, including mostly recently a novel of all foolish things. I went to work from the Bush administration in the
the american enterprises to wear the lot of work on the need to understand the consequences of the failure of economic expansion to bear a off
the middle income people. I wrote a book about that response to two thousand and seven, and I started website on that subject, caught from form that,
flourish remote, two dozen and night to gas it? Well, I think I obviously over did it they attack by a high in two thousand and began a little too far. I always kind disgruntled about that at the time, but in retrospect I think if you drive through enough red lines, you can't being
if the state trooper rights your ticket and have arrived at the end
adequacy, read, write and working here since two thousand and fourteen. I Britain a number of articles on all of these various subjects and continue to.
Right on the Atlantic website. Almost every day, you done so amazing
journalism there who, with respect to this current moment, there's one article in his
gotta be among the most viral in recent history from the Atlantic. The title is how to build an autocracy, so many people have been talking about that. I am actually want to ask you about the good case to be made for Trump. If there is one relentless hold off on that for a second there's one scene, setting question that that I'd like to ask you here, come a personal one, what your experience has been taking the stand, that you have put your among the few really prominent conservatives who came out against Trump early and stayed against him. I put in a bill crystal and David Brook Cenis Brett Stevens at the Wall Street Journal in that category
well. I've heard from other conservatives who have taken similar positions that their experience has just been a nightmare. I'm wondering have you had a rough go of it at all of you just come out of this unscathed. First, I can't complain compared to what anybody
it has to put up with, and genuinely unfair country is not. Second, I would say
a girl that saying, if you want a friend, a washing
get a dog to I've, to doubts that good friends, but more seriously. Actually I think I've got not quite likely compared some other way.
When that was may be due to the experts are mentioned in the set up it where I've been through this. Before this happened, I went through this expression and much more dramatic way.
Between two thousand and nine and two thousand and ten, and at that point I was concerned that the
the then new tea party movement was way too radical way to heart, and I urged
a more restrained form of opposition present Obama. The article that got me fired from a actually was one eyed riding through two thousand and nine two dozen ten
to those consumers who imagine that by stopping the healthier life
destroy the Obama administration. Please remember: the Democrats have also seen this movie. They know how it ends. If they don't hold together, they will hold together. They will pass this law, and so the smart thing to do is to go it's full of things that you dont like, but has also got things in tat you should like. So this is a time to do business or negotiate.
This law will ass. It passes over your opposition, you'll be spent the next quarter, sensual trying to fix things when you could actually asking today
on the day, the war ass at the end of March, in the overcame the last procedural hurdle after which is a clear, shot
The present century, nauseated March, twenty ten, I wrote a blog posts on my site called water
to promise that by breaking the law, if they will deliver a Waterloo of defeat to present a bomb in this is the water live. Indeed of the radical Publican opposition is love
never be repealed. I still hold their protection. Yes will Republicans will do well in twenty two
and legislative, mid majorities, come and go this lost forever and the right-
articles led us to disaster, and after that I went through the experience of many of my.
Anti trust, conservative, friends or having now
true social isolation to accusations of betrayal,
The only reason you say these things because of those legendary Georgette Georgetown cocktail parties, anybody that radical critics always presume people would do pay any price to attend the NASA read, and I went through that experience. In fact, for me now what
On a personal level, I find I've been operating. The lemonade stand by the side of the road and announcing a lot of people starting by lemonade, so it's actually become congenial experience, and I had this kind of grim amusement, not surprise
eyes of say that a lot of people told me it in two thousand and ten that by saying we should try to come up with a market centred approach to
there was a hundred coverage and I was a seller with principles they are now working for Donald Trump were apologizing for him and revealed a case, wait where there is no principle case for doing this, and that is better in a kind of grim grim amusement watch that year. But what was your experience? Watchin, the actual election results? Come
and I saw this browser tat was when I was on. I was in Canada. I was on the saddle.
Because he knew their pale
covering the election results- and perhaps I was stunned I'd, they were not what I expected, I'm quite sure. For example, the trunk could not breakthrough in Michigan, because sleep
high level minority voted that states, but he did so. I was
excited. I was at three o clock in the morning that night in it it was. It was an
everything is actually I'm coming out of a tv studio,
three in the morning with streets, deserted in Toronto, foreign city and walked back to the hotel
staying, attics really call by walked anyway, and you just felt like it had been. This chapter in one's life in human history had just turned in a way that I knew there was was not going to be good. Nothing good was,
lady force we're gonna get into the dark side in a moment, but to start and be as generous as
possible without being delusional. What is the smartest case? You have heard in defence of trump if you had to give the most respectable case for having supported him until this point and for continuing to support him even now. What is that case? Well, don't trunk got God even today's, yet three big things right that the rest of the political process had tended to ignore the first of those things is the crisis in what is happening in american girl. Like you know, I donno from used the phrase inner city a lot when you must convey travel and drugs and crime and despair, but actually centres american Centre cities,
amazing- revive almost everywhere- even in some pretty hard pressed places like the Cleveland and the Philadelphia Centre, cities are doing bar. Where you see real trouble is in the small towns and rural areas, drug abuse and family breakdown.
Levels of imprison inside of social dysfunction, that you'd associate with the beginnings of the crisis. The black America in the nineties, evidence and Donald Trump went to those places and channeled the unhappiness of those people who, in a lot of them, rather the political process of ten days. You just move business there, both to Brooklyn Circa Hickey, understood them intuited what they were about,
That is really important. They have not been heard. They needed to be heard. The drunk crisis in America is a whirl phenomenon as much more
as an urban phenomenon. He got right that we have had a series of beliefs about trade. They grew up in the days were building a trade systems that included fellow democracies,
The pacific rim, countries made they weren't, always democratic. At least they are small
like Taiwan, Singapore and did they were at the time you brought him into the water system, not democratic, but they were not also so biggest negative, for somebody else
applied all of those ideas to China's rival into the world economy, and it has not worked in the same way that China that we have had chronic and massive trade imbalances with China and those caused real,
harsh ongoing this location for a lot of Americans who do weren't traded sectors. And while we talk a lot about welcoming
We should compensate the losers and we can retrain people. We don't do anything about that in proportion to the severity of the shock. Dont front was talking, but something important when it when he talked about the trade arrangements that worked in the past have stopped working for a lot of american since the year two thousand
and the third thing I think, we're making he's made. It see something truly made. A real contribution was on immigration issues. Immigration is described
on. Mrs, the only policy that creates no there's no costs only benefits will that's not true. Credit has large house there there invisible to those who talk whether these we don't pay them, but they are the cause of immigration. Both economic and cultural are heavy. Are they fall on the bottom, thirty percent or forty percent of american society and even discuss?
Those costs has been so beyond the pale in means in the media mainstreaming, the political mainstream that this issue just went was waiting there for somebody to talk to and Donald Trump it right, there's another case that people tend to make. I grant all of that. I think I think that is interesting, but none of that suggests that Trump himself would be the right person to implement any changes in any of those three areas. One argument I keep encountering from reasonably
Smart people are ostensibly smart people in defensive trump, the man really in an all of his erratic unprofessional ism, as was totally on display in his last press conference. People seem to think that there's something about
him being a little nuts or seeming
little nuts, which interest a purely game
the erratic way could turn out well for us, both domestically and as a matter of foreign policy. Domestically we have justice, ossified political system with vested interests and bureaucracy and deep state, and he is like a wrecking ball. There's just swinging through that and clearing out the message that they would take. Someone like Trump, perhaps someone as unhinged as trump someone as narcissistic as Trump to do that dirty work and as a matter of foreign policy, it could be advantageous again just press along game. Theoretic lines to
have a bull in a China shop right who, who will break the right stuff and who will keep our adversaries on their toes, because now there dealing with it with a genuinely erratic, not always rational person, and so we could expect our adversaries,
North Korea, our IRAN or even China and Russia to be somehow more compliant does any that makes sense to
I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I know it's not your own view authorised when you connect. We were told the man s question. I think I have something to learn from history,
leaders on trade, unplaced sympathetic to message on immigration and end
I've been working with problems of rural life was happened. American working class got this thing,
A major theme. I ready to do that, but this is what I would like us: the story of the legendary plot condign parking times when one was beautiful diamonds on earth. Other romantic is gonna want
short history, the clock diamond unforeseen comes attended, as famous times often do by a terrible crime
and the job. A curse is Mr Black, and that is true here I for Donald Trump Man, there is no defence and all the things
those that case you make them instead of a genius, and you can welcome somebody- would have made it during the campaign, but don't run on the daily speakers were present for coastal month.
Neither is it not true that he's knock on domestic work is not currently the bureaucracy on
the contrary, because he is so massively disorganized and competent that also staffing his government is lagging far behind.
I'd are he's not dominated the seven hundred or so Seneca
for a he's, nominated
only by ninety of those that that has, if you're, a republican lily person once again get their tasks,
Congress has really ominous potential, because if people the centre is not confirming people in January and February, that means it will be confirming them in April and may, by which time you should be confirmed, passing major bills. The Senate time is a very finite resource in it. This schedule gets clogged later, because the present was too disorganized too can get, is appointed Gunnar. Really, then you're, one of our major parts of your logic of your legislative agenda. All are
abroad is even worse. The present of United States has the power and organise human life on this planet. Has there almost zero checks on his power to do that? It is really important.
Now two states as a nuclear powers, the dominant power of behave in a way that is predictable. If an undertaking as its empowers adversaries, it does not turn them and
What is especially ominous here you listening to address
There is real, ran China and Russia on one of those adversaries, Russia, just graduated from
the rank of adversary, to something else that is really sinister, and that goes back into the unpredictability of this government. Is I don't know what Russia is now? Is it cause our ally? Is it a patron
but he's got a power inside the: U S: government that is unjustified and undisclosed and deeply
ominous, and that too comes from erratic nature. So no there
there is no for him. I think the verdict is this day
There is a dispute weather
worn. Harding ever actually said. These words were the tribute to death bed. Looking back his breast
the iron fit for this place and never should have come here. That is one
We don't trumps epitaph, although he would lack of self knowledge ever pronounced that himself. Yeah well. Needless to say, I am deeply sympathetic with with that summary of him. I've never seen even for a moment, a real method to the guy's madness and people have been interpreted in his boastful ness and his his speaking style as a kind of stagecraft as a kind of master level communication to the masses and a brilliant plain of the media. I have just been seeing the Jackal Asians of a disordered personality. I've seen someone whose sole malignantly selfish and
so uninformed, though we occasionally, he can string a few hands together at bottom. He is deeply inarticulate him. He is a kind of confabulate tory mind where he will get tripped up by his own word choices and take garden path:
still his own mind that he will clearly not intending right. He was not attending to speak of something, but the word just came
out and then he's often running on that topic, and this goes to questions of policy goes to questions of what our country will do. Next, it's terrifying debate.
Old. But you have people who are an of interpretation of this, which is not only exculpatory but just praises the man to the skies as a kind of next level, genius communicator, while the thought that you're in the car, with a hopelessly drunk drivers,
We'll is so upset that you want to believe that the driver must have some secret plan, but I do think that there is some method to the matters. I only done Trump is a strategic vision or he never as a plan.
What what he is very good at in his business career was heap. He makes impulsive decisions are usually bad decisions. All of his shrewdness and Canada is applied
after the fact, what is very good at is having made a bad decision, shifting the cost of that decision on other people, finding people to blame finding people to cheat he's very good at that, and he is a master communicator other Particular Kyle
He is so deeply grieved you. Somebody is so irresponsible that he's he's able,
speaking ways strike a chord with other people who feel
the same levels of grievances? I am not in any way making a Hitler analogy:
I wanted a strenuous enemy had occasion said more than once. As the analogy I often use the people,
one. The reasons to study history so you're not always making her analogies and want to stand that there are a lot of ways of things can be bet. You can be a bad train, but has many stopped before your eyes had persuasion, but one of the contemporary observers it was lost,
power marker gene. Wasn't Thomson wrote an essay in the early nineties thirty's about who is susceptible Germany to hit learn? Who was not, and one thing she knew, was it happy? People never became Nazis and I think there is something but there's something. Doctrine is so full of bitterness and rate, and you look at the people in his inner circle. There's not personal
in his encircle suffers dotterine someone they have to be there, but does that pursues come into his inner circle? Who has a fully functioning personal life there? All people were full of shit.
General Flynn, enraged Obama for firing from the Trans Intelligence Agency for incompetence, Steve Bannon.
A man who obviously has tremendous rage and addiction issues, remarriage Sue Divorces, the others as well there, and there are millions of people in America who who say you know what I am just the right to see, Donald from be rude to the snobs. I don't care. What he's going to do to me. It'll be worth it
Let us talk about the Republicans for a second, because obviously they are shouldering,
a lot of the responsibility for what happens now by no means the first person to make this point, but I think it was very interesting and end uncanny to consider what the world would be like if this situation were reversed. Imagine if Clinton had won the presidency without winning the popular vote and with evidence of assistance from Russia right. The Orange Sea had been hacked and Clinton had delighted in this during the campaign at even called for more hacking, and then inexplicably, she had only positive things to say about Vladimir Putin Thug, who jails and even kills his political opponents and, let's say she's vastly wealthy even more than she is, and he had known to have financial ties to Russia right and she's refuse to release her tax returns, even though she promised to release them once her audit was
but now she now is president she's refusing and she's a pointed multiple people to her administration, who have unusually deep connections to Russia right and then we learned that some of these people were in dialogue with russian intelligence during the campaign and that Russia was attempting to influence the election with a continuous stream of packed leaks and state propaganda. So you have this just reverse picture with Clinton. Imagine how the Republicans the Party of Reagan, the party that that won the cold war would have responded to this. Is it safe to say that we would be in a completely different situation with the Republic
just go and preserve us as quick. That's really right minutes have occasion to do at the point of out your history, a lousy job at the Department of Agriculture and that's like a big deal in even more poignant comparison is obviously the Republicans would have the opposite position if they were the opposite situation. How democratic Party were, and if this, if we had a Hillary Clinton in the situation and was striking, is I did they would be much less in luck,
with a President Clinton, then Republicans are in lost. It was present drop in one of the ways to understand the Republican Party. So imagine ok what this, where the Democratic Party is right, that this work wouldn't presidency, the demo. Why would the Democrats be lessened lockstep than the Republicans are
Appointing a couple of reasons for that. Mrs illuminating, the first and most important is Democrats, get their information from a lot of different.
Eating information sources.
Yeah there's a lot of racquetball Democrats, you read the Facebook and get rid of angry messages from Michael more.
But all the leaders of the Democratic Party releasing was by the what new times the washing post and is much more.
Was by those things, and it is by even its favourite talkers,
like Rachel Matter. That is obviously very important, but she's, not she doesnt she's, not the sun and Moon democratic communications. There are ways by which unwelcome information can penetrate the consciousness, not just of leaders of the rank and file and be important because they wait a minute. Our party leader is doing things that are
risky and dangerous, and an even matter denies them your times. Reporting! That's wonderful! The second is that the Democratic Party, because it is a coalition of many different
the aims of groups, it is always more fractious, meant that the dark, the Democratic Party supported the countries most recent immigrants of African Americans
but also cause professors and also of you know them.
Look on valley in hedge funds. There
There are so many internal important cultural differences and in the last is that the Democratic Party has built party structures that are less higher there. There are places to stand. Show Hillary Clinton in Bernie Sanders
battle it out to the end, and each one continue. Should Roy important resources report for different parts of democratic party there's no way, but one of them can turn off the resource flow to the other, and none of those things are true and the Republican Party won
The difference in the Republican Party, the democratic party- and this is really relevant- why Donald Trump seem to get away with one eye, witness a bunch of artists or stand as a serious one of them that I think has retained. I might have a lot of relevance, something I wrote at the beginning of twenty. Sixteen I talked with trumps then looming victory. That one of the big reveals of the cycle was how much the republican rank and file hated it today,
the cost to the leadership that the situation was just ripe for a disruptive ages to break the connection between the party rank and file and even then,
Eddie Donors and the congressional and state Leadership- and that is what Donald Trump his dog. He is now that a direct connection with the base in a way that makes the frightens
personally Paul Ryan, and also makes for I was the only way pariah can achieve its agenda is by subordinating himself did on trumped. Not budge. Algae Ryan is an interesting lens through which to look at this. So you think that is what explains the reticence of of rye and, at this point, to the fact that he realizes that Trump has a hold of the base and his political future is more or less entirely dependent on not pissing off trumps base.
Paradise on negative worthless after the access Hollywood take him out in what she would suggest that he would not endorsed on his standing in the financial body. Dropper twenty points within a week, Donald Trump wanted one thinks it has done, that it is kind of amazing is he has broken to his will every institution and the Republican Party, including Fox NEWS, which began much more sceptical of em. They fought him and he did it.
Fox news. He beat the Bush machine, he beat all right. This is, as it were, Republicans agree with. It is because many of these people do not continue not to other Fox NEWS now in life, but they have invested by him and they are subordinated to him and they are bound him. They struck the devil's Barton,
as always with devil's bargain. The devil is not honouring his share. Our aid is going stand by this point said if it,
to that end. How little of his agenda it gets you drop and how much he ends up defending a very different from the agenda, but their writing. There is no obvious way to get off this right. Well, there's one way get off his ride. They could impeach him and we're gonna get into the implications of Russia's involvement, whatever it is in our democratic process, but to speaking generically how bad what a scandal have to be before. You would be confident that the Republicans would impeach Trump like one example. I just that comes to mind if his tax returns were leaked by Iris, I'm not sure if such things possible, but I must say that happened and they showed that he had massive indebtedness to the russian oligarchs. What would happen if that happened today? I don't owe you be in future.
Having debts is too high crime, a misdemeanor everybody has debts. I'm trying to get my jaw off the floor tat. You know he's got a six hundred million dollar mortgage with a bank of China, that's report. We know that, as has been reported in the provisional ties before the election that wasn't enough to learn people until he was office buildings, his his son, Don Junior, told an investor conference in two thousand and eight the hugely disproportionate share of
their income comes from Russia sources that on the record- and that was almost a decade ago, anybody who walks into a Trump branded property
and looked at the names on the mailbox campaign.
Your stand where trumps money country an end at anyone familiar with transparent, as is understanding for it
We owe a lot of money to somebody, and no american Bank will lend him anything so who's he getting is money from these are not mysteries
ok so I was back I x. I want to ask you more about his what you think about its finances, but take me back to the possibility of impeachment. What
could do it? I mean you have to find a severed head and in his Jim Bag and me what what could trump do?
I could imagine he could have a press conference
so erratic, where everyone would have to admit that we are now being ruled by a madman. We had one of those he takes down his pants at the next press conference right and calls everyone Cox, that's refreshing that kind of straight speeches refreshed by american people. Sadly, voted for
French yesterday and Donald Trump gave them just u inside about way. People who live on the Pacific Ocean, you and
about where people don't understand the charm of pants was present exact.
We need to lead Ohio people. Take your path. People are lucky tat ants in all. In all of you with pants, you will lead us a thumb. Looked at these are political decisions, so long as that core base adheres to troll Delongs Fox news lines. It is a better marketing decision to be
protocol messaging then questioning the put the party will, however, unhappily hold
together and so long as it has a majority in Congress about has
where she will not be removed.
Things are an I think in where this is too early on makes his your password. I think people are looking for some have an extra, no solution where the trunk presidency goes away on its own. Something happens to save us from the situation and one of my big messages to people's message. The ETA, my Atlantic article, is no one is going to help you you have to do. There is not going to be an impeachment there's not going
at one of the men reprocessed process, because the cars are not going to spontaneously come to their the all the things you want them to know. They know they had private meetings. They know how crazy he is, and if they don't know how crooked he is, they have a pretty good
the line I can't use your Donald Trump is whether many secrets about the term presidency. There, no mistress everything you need to know you know,
things you'd like to know you don't know, but the things you need to know
You know all you notice across you know. He is beholden to the Russians and ways he shouldn't be. You know he surrounding himself people.
Business being and government at All- and you do know Paul Metaphor- has worked for the past fifteen years with the russian civil police took killer
the people of Ukraine in the main tens of millions of dollars himself, the process you almost things. You know you may not know exactly to whom he has gone down from his debts.
Much. You may not know whether he is bound by the report and by blackmail or by hope
bigger financial gains or by genuine spirit of admiration or by better things. You don't know the story thought up. So if you wanted to do something about this,
What are you I mean? The people listen to me and we have to. We have to ethical
jobs in many ways, gods judgment on US sign as a forbidden women's programme again
I can take it in this spirit and damage, but is a judgment on us for not being better citizens and if we nothing better consumers with information, not being
more conveyed to the political process, not working harder to persuade friends and neighbours it sometimes everyone. I said to myself to that. You know
to overcome your norm, recognise the unique event
to overcome. What are your normal political impetus, and if we want to defend the country and the constitution, we have to get our citizens and no one else is gonna. Do that was when you say it's honours its on us to do what pressure Congress to act and at what would a lever, is within reach of people's changing opinions. I advocate infinite effort on behalf of very fine goals. I think people were-
alarmed by dont, promptly to focus on one or at most two things they want to know. My recommendations are a law requiring the sector, the treasure to release suggestions of any major party candidate for president, and that, of course, the sitting President vice president every year and second, we need an independent inquiry with subpoena for massive superior powers at the bottom and from Russia connection. Let's do those two things and let that everyone should be talking to
Their member Congress, the sender all the time about those two things that I'm not telling you that, if you're a gap in our anti gun person or as the problem choice person, you you forget the rest of your politics, but
I didn't the women's March on Washington happened just after you don't go, although inspired in many ways is an example of how things are not done right. Those people had a lot of other too many demands and to many people they would not stand on the same platform with if you're serious look containing drop. You have to be their second amendment, people
for the release of the tax returns. You have to be there with pro life people for the release of the tax returns at them
Oh here is mothers drunk driving impurities drunk driving. They worked with your dead matter. What
that didn't you didn't have to be a mother, but you think that nothing in the tax returns could be so,
oh disqualifying as to affect his impeachment? I think nothing in the tax returns will, if they were will somehow
tomorrow would, in themselves dry the Republicans to support to vote from basement
Here's! What we're here, that? What are you? The first, if there were the votes in Congress, to pass a law talking, but I think you discover down how strong would take a Sunday
for the worse you, he would discover that itself did not allowed to use heard in this house. Are tax returns really sick,
asian. Wouldn't we need like a full forensic audit of his and his family's finances. You might be here's one thing tat. I tried to tell you a lot
One of these you ass my biography, one one of the things
there's. Another aspect of my life is maybe relevant here, which is
I've been four times what are the real estate industry and that's waiting list.
I'm doing between two thousand and two thousand and sixteen
and so I understand a little bit real estate. Fine, it's does tat. Show up in your personal tax returns your partner,
What you want to do is one have alive.
These: are losses flow from the core aside into personally,
number Donald Trump has a big night
million dollar or so tasks.
Our sitting took it and is continuing to personal income taxes against that tax law.
And that means he is. That must mean. Was it's just means he's organized his affairs so that he is declaring a partnership income,
and loyalty income in the same places than is declared that he citizens lost, as is the losses, are on the personal turned. Therefore, that's what that with his other income sources, must be and then and then you have to do disclosed by the with another thing, your hard to do
The black sea region is disclose any foreign back. Can't you have that over ten thousand dollars
so anywhere, he would have money that will be in an ax made out of disclosed. It, then that that would also be trouble. So I think we would learn a lot
You wouldn't NASA there, the identity of all of its partners, any wouldn't learn at all. In one of these,
you have to do is not clear how much money for bank accounts, but the maximum amount of money. At any point in that year we ve got what leaking returns. I dont think the eye.
Rest would ever do that their initiative. Nor should they, of course, but the one little glimmered recently nobody loss. Is it somebody meat.
Is ever get out. Yours lignite money for New York, state income, texture and which was interested in me, but that is a treasure leaking of federal income. Tax return. How ever comes into possession a unifying
Industry is a major crime forever, at least, but it turns out that any work least releasing a state tat. Nature is not such a nature, so well, I'd ask that care whether it was
only when accountant or somebody else
swore an attorney and accounted for don't from Ex wife, Marilla Maples CO signed that region. They had the right to know that releasing the New York state password.
Tell him many of the things you need to know about special taxes, but with much less legal.
I built in there. Maybe somebody out there waiting the moment to do that thing. Again. I'm sort of a man
Maybe I'm naive. Hereby I've been amazed that no business journalist has won his Pulitzer Prize by getting to the bottom of trumps finances during the campaign and it always seemed like he was. He was very likely exaggerating his wealth by
maybe even a factor of ten tumor Brian, whose editor achieve Bloomberg NEWS. I wrote a book about Tom Swine answers about a dozen years ago and was was soon tongued loss. In course, losses Brian did discovery and learned a lot about trumps statutory as part of the settlement process. He cited on.
Besides, they sealed record decided on disclosure agreement, and so the things you can't say that were to arise out of
rolling his eyes. Moving a shoulder. Bookcases indicate hope it out. If you knew what I ve done. Crop is always been one step ahead of the bailiff.
Although that's about changes now, whatever he was on the day before election day,
I think, he's already a substantially richer man than he was then and he and his family.
Family. There no disclosures on course and media presidential relatives by
I'm not taking salary the executive branch, your prisoners, to feel it a lot of other federal
Closure rules on their logical drivers, who is the wish of Pacific sandwich? That's the irony these about to become his riches. He's always lied about being, perhaps just take a moment to paint a picture of what that's like. How can trump and the family enrich themselves?
result of bein in power. So many ways and many of them not many that improper but not illegal, for example, on somebody
Building right now, a shopping mall in Malaysia
and they decide they want the trunk organization, don't have a role and
They are so happy to have the trunk organization there that they ask for no money down and what will do,
Gimme, a twenty five percent share of the profits. Are you pay out?
your nominal share of the investment from the profits when they arrive everything after that is used to keep. We would never even know such a thing happened and about how we did it unless you can demonstrate that there's a strict quid pro quo bribe is not clear that any they'll be legal analyses
Now has one of the losers bribery laws in the developed world, especially those after
the young, the trial that predicament Abubakar now, but
that against you ok was is it? Is it
story starts boring, but it gets good. I promised to make me
I was gonna governor of Virginia. He had a patient who gave him and his wife,
a hundred thousand dollars of various kinds of benefits cash, fancy clothes, Nancy, watches and make out that and then it to him. The page ran up payment supplement
buddy and begun will arrange a series of meetings for him with important people in the state government.
To which he retired to seek out and should be including his supplements within states. Medicaid mother transports, Macdonell and his wife were convicted on it.
Don't wait: twenty counts of corruption and thereby sensed prison. He appealed to the Supreme Court and Supreme Court overturned the set
because handled didn't need the law. They may not always been your Josie bribery only if there was a quid as you receive something there was a quote. You do something and we could prove the pro in the middle of that is that the favor you could prove the favour was done because of the gift. You couldn't really pointed the favourite point of getting to pick the consolidation we had approved intention out. That's already incredibly hard supreme Court than add something else, and the quick Cuoco had
by persuade the politician to do with court, called an official act and setting up merely setting up a meeting and stay bureaucrat is not officially
because ass, the sudden politician did as a politician and not as an office holder. So it is legal to take money and set up meetings, but for the guy gave up the money, if you as the politician, not the person then says: ok, here's the correct.
Jack. That's on the bureaucrat that Malaysia case image and is working very hard to come up with a criminal conviction and providing the troubled realisation, declares all the taxes and meet all these technical requirements on a lot of the sub. Maybe they got their doing these things right.
Now that we are this weekend, the air, the to drop always will be in Dubai, with
millions of dollars and security costs. The transit is arguably Abu Dhabi, with millions of dollars and security costs, the taxpayers result, and they will be promoting the hotel property that
opening their do. You think the state government of Abu Dhabi then be looking with more favour on that project than it looked a Europe. Obviously, that's that sticks but its it.
Happening it's not so this is not something
Under the emoluments clause, mines
this is not self execute. It is good that it is forbidden for people of war. The president take these
or what you would expect defining. What is it a mine or a statute in their understanding? And
it's likely would have authority to bring a case, and it is not clear away the miners.
This refers to princess or governments. It's not cleared the sovereign wealth funds of Abu Dhabi
is covered by the mine is causing certain up clear that the brother in law, the Interior Ministry of Adobe, whose a private businessman hollow that he's covered by an it, but we certainly does not apply to the president's relatives,
right. Ok, I want. I want to talk about the wandering about Russia and Putin and the leaks, but before we do again, I want to just be is charitable, as as we can
muster here. Is there anything to be said against the intelligence community leaking this information about Flynn and end? Are we who are now calling for an investigation setting a dangerous precedent by encouraging such weeks and empowering these deep state actors to essentially hamstring any future executive?
in our government you're late. Roll call about this, which I guess we'll find a very powerful com say- was with
the FBI Cia, whoever's looking into matters doing by linking can get, is pretty sinister, because people can
be investigated for all kinds of things at which at the
the press- yours, you ve, done nothing wrong, I'm and they are ready.
Patients should meet, should not be destroyed in the process of an investigation. We expect law enforcement, he quiet until they filed charges and if they
if we invest it by no basis to drop charges. Even
inwardly. Think that you maybe did it this. You know that's not enough, but the policeman thinking you maybe did. It is not enough grounds.
To destroy reputation in the case of plan is now going to be plunged into a very substantially because I get all that said what's under these are not passive victims here and for first, whereas the present himself has begun, but he has begun by making clear that he intends to up end the nest
Security system in the United States because he can talk about the CIA, is effective and scandal promised that he's follow people who now inconveniently much about his active
and he's gonna try to reorganise the services to Washington prisoners of war,
Besides these investigations, and if it happens, if you, if you're sitting at the next task- and you know the guy with the DAS, besides
as was not the trunk. Russia stop and suddenly
a guy's reassigned to Mongolia and his wife
his reassigned to Vancouver and they have with the service, because that the terrible job they just been given you get the message and they do that through times four times
at times. I bet you gotta, get bonuses, and even that, even before the Republicans pass, a law which is Hollywood
good idea under normal president, make it easier to fire as civil servants, if even before the fire and actually start next, we are dealing with a gun
where the new powers of investigation is broke. Congress has made a clear they're not going to investigate the rush connection in any meaningful way.
I do not want to be an independent, and these ages feel the breath
come on their neck. How much longer are they going to be allowed to do best? Getting at what point of their records destroyed that many
People in these services feel you're. Let us go out and find
I do think, there's something this is maybe an ad hoc of wine, but no Donald Trump and make
when are not well situated disappointed
We obtained information should not be used as the basis of their final argument
American people give us an ominous. Even people violate the rights of others entitled have their own rights respected gotta still it is.
It. Is it's hard to feel sympathy, there's a certain degree of hypocrisy that is hard to ignore in the interests of maintaining our institutions.
Haggerty this story about Russia's hacking of the election and here,
may not hacking voting machines who knows what they attempted there, but just the Dnc Hack and the effectiveness of their propaganda and trumps and specified connection
to Russia. This story was on the verge of going away. It seem people were seeming to forget. This had happened and,
This is one of my alarm in things I can recall happening just nothing like this in her politics, so this week brought that story back. So I guess my basic question to you is: what's the most sinister interpretation of trumps entanglement with Russia that you still find plausible and what's the most an Oculus one remote to my ovulation, many secrets, no mystery!
Ah, I don't know whether we will find collusion coordination between people around Donald Trump or dont account himself, conceivably and russian intelligence. I don't know and look let's say we never do we never find that proof and madness. It yeah, maybe that's it. Just was a giant goddamn coincidence, it's still terribly unexacting, so here we have cared for oppression who, in full view of all of us what the russian intelligence operation as wickedly says. Now that statement how content
show a claim. Is that about what he likes? I think was a lot more controversial six months ago than it is today. So here you here's the case against Wikileaks. All intelligence experts agree that the debt, democratic legitimacy,
we d travel sea, which is at the fundraising arm of the House, Democrats and John Fidessa these within the places where the information, those hacks we're done by russian intelligence, that material than shows up on the way he looks at how did they get well probe Wikileaks people tell a story that the way we use
That information was that there was an internal Stafford. The at the Democratic National Committee, some publicity is this poor young men who shot dead by Robert I'm in DC partner and that there was a hand off of this information.
From this internal agent to former
British ambassador to Uzbekistan in Archibald Glover parking.
Which is, as I said here talking to. You is
couple blocks away from me. I want my dogs and personal Glover Park,
and when I hear the strike, how did he not get bogged down by bicycle as asylum were bitten by
one of the thousands of dogwalkers any really. Why would you not just put
sign over how you could be more conspicuous, then doing this fake spinal. The excellent. Why people? Never
Some drops by the way. These things I do they never been star. What's the story told this story? Twenty create a possible
worthy of an innocent
a non russian intelligence. It they're so crazy these stories than we know. We know who did the burglary and we know that what the net.
What is in your shop window- and maybe there was a chain of conveyance between the burglars in you, but you are not an innocent possession, of course, and I dont by the Archibald Glover Park, hand off stories is ridiculous.
So we also know that we leave this alone pattern hour. Weeks presents information that is convenient and useful to Russia's,
and we also know is that they have went whenever there is any pressure on Donald Trump. They go preserve. They are actually fairly above board about this. There in her throat focused some of these energy intensity gestation of
of that is holy. Climate means repulse issues rather West, like a campaign of disinformation, you're running manual macro, whose Lee Nonfood new scandal for press in France in elections a spring, or this justifies Iceland,
secret life- and that is pretending to be married and catholic and kids, but in Pakistan, secretly appeal
while all along and he was so that so that all happen trump phrasing with you weeks ends and urging the Russians to hack Hillary Clinton, Emil's more and not speaking on behalf of Americans, whose rights were being violated by foreign intelligence espionage operation. Several have not always used up
that's. Not a secret is not a secret that when asked what he honour when then your times, reporters David
David saying remark, begging him and asked him: will you honor the NATO treaty? He said? Maybe I will maybe I want it's not a secret that he hired the consent,
the area is corrupt, rushing puppet ruler of Ukraine as his campaign manager or your line. His party's black.
Of his pipe one, then the Republic battle with Russia do on chromium and Ukraine and Syria and NATO and the EU every american President's is quite ass,
I want to see a more integrated Europe. Every american presence
Britain joined in the night and Seventys beginning with job, for once, he Britain in the EU. These are
forty years and sixty years, a consistent american foreign policy and John down from them to dot the appropriate lie? Is he be blackmailed
the evaluation is beholden. I don't know, I just see what he's doing. I don't need to know the answer. Why I'm it's interesting I'd like to know that I can see what he's doing. He is central Soviet first and that Russian, later foreign policy projects are higher
paramount for policies. Digital suffer the bond between the secondary if they could ever do
at the time. This is monkey boy sex. They could ever do that. Their power in Europe would be reestablished again. They have failed at every turn
point six and now Donald Trump campaign is making the relationship with Germany there had at resolutely attacking
german interests, german values again and again and again, and I believe we celebrated the break up of the EU and the exit of France from EU should, if TAT people John, if the Russians had written out a to, do it
for present of United States that President would do everything almost a drop of dawn and safeguard its strangely disempowering to realise that all the necessary bad news is in plain sight, because it was in plain sight during the campaign and he still got elected and he still got supported by people. I Paul Ryan, rather than say something reasonable about Putin. He did nothing but praise him rather than say something reasonable and responsible about the hacking of his opponent. He celebrated it and it just leaves us in a situation where there is less of a basis to hope that the Republicans will put the brakes on him at any point of a couple of questions from Twitter here that just one of rapid fire questions, and then I wanted just as a final topic, talk to you about journalism and the state of the media, and then they feel
news problem, but this is from twitter. Now, who would you like? A sea run against Trump in four years? Why? I would love to see an internal Republican Party primary challenged, and that was successful, and I think I could come from a number of our
new governors elected in the past cycles.
We have an amazing about governor in Missouri. Obvious varies just like there is beginning. A season is four months governing so
focused on Missouri. Stop our greatest. Am I I think he just his reform minded he's vigorous
it sounds like a joke. You say nothing
Bobby Seale, not only re scholar, but a jewish may be seen. As far as I know, that sounds like it sounds like a not not job, but it's really really really happen. I did not know they. May jewish Navy seals rose yes,
sadly, but that, but they did he. Road ahead is wonderful writer. What a wonderful book about very winning book about, but his experience of surviving the Navy seal course. Ah people
People like that, if there isn't a primary challenge
say I obviously I would like, if the day
that would put in a position to vote for demographic second time in my life, which I will be uncomfortable for me. In that case, I would like somebody who is as much a national
security, democratic business, oriented Democratic, a I'll, keep the taxes and spending not to research and the political correctness, not to waste.
I kind of democratic had another so making those democrats- and I dont- know four years now- there were still making those Democrats, but the closer than the closer. The democratic nominee looks to Bob Reuben. The happier avi is my concern. Eve just alluded to my concern about the democratic and liberal responds to Trump. I just see that Trump is bringing out the worst in the left were seen. This
wing into identity, politics and its amplifying everything that was guaranteed lose against him. The first time around. You think the Democrats can regroup here and become more centrist in and saying on on these issues. I am still a future Europe still so plastic some.
That I dont like to be the protectionists? When I wonder I wanted the ashes, and so I am working for independent minded supporting it.
And it might republic its Congress in the next two years after that, if there's any
laws will personal rather than party will make a primary charlestown from I will,
equally? I disagree with them about almost. If tat crews desert I'll be knocking on doors, should hackers
but somehow I would not normally. I would rather see a present. The doll drop tat cruising, I don't you,
You'll get us into a nuclear war by accident.
As a low. You take my wedding. What am I? What am I person
rules for the next four years is don't be so fussy, don't freeze up take what you can get an end. If there is no primary challenge, you know look I'd rather be printed.
Mr President, on crop drove them. It crazy, as he is, I think, he's not a crook. Ok, more twitter, if trumps infrastructure spending creates jobs. How do we prevent it from bolstering?
his authoritarian agenda. There s the opening the wrath of the article I wrote for the Atlantic, I'm one of the things that there too misconceptions. I totally the programme about don't think
going to go away on the honest. I dont think that in this clash between them,
trumpet the F b I see. I, then the president must lose and the so called deep state which isn't that deep. Must
when the president is a lot of our plan and second dont think he will be as unpopular nine months now as yesterday, because if you get some kind of task, if you get deficits in the fiscal stimulus, if you have an infrastructure programmes on time,
It s, an immigration stretching it. I'm sorry
his wages at a time in the economy is growing up. He may turn out to be a pretty popular present at these popular. Not you just need to get to fifty percent.
This is not like the old days when you got north
if you give a president get into Dixon approval rating at present is probably had into real action. Ok, final twitter question that is seemingly from left field. I guess there's a point of contact here, but I want to know your opinion on this. What's your position on Edward Snowden, I d
could be in prison. He died. I may I dont know. I dont know what point in the process he became. A
a tour of the Russians, whether it be big at the beginning, the middle or at the end, when he got asylum and Russia, but I know
is betrayed. Important american national security secrets cares excuses people.
Do those things always do if you got if you think that you ve caught your government doing something you are, you should further information in the times, not rushing intelligence, a nation state
defend yourself in court and proof of the country that you were right and the government was wrong.
What was wrong. Why did you give them the tools to look to the russian state and take refuge in Russia's state? I have no, not a tinkling simply for anything. You did no matter
Neil say that only strengthened you're conservative born a few days with our audience, which makes everything you said about trumpet the Republicans all the more poignant. Let's just take a few minutes to talk about, what's happened to journalism and how we fix it, because let us take this from the side of a rosy future. If I told you that over the next ten years,
we ushered in the golden age of journalism and that social media became an unambiguous force for good, and we we to solve all these problems of fake news end
miss aligned incentives and we had a truly healthy media landscape. How did we get there? I think there are some grounds to her
that we will see some kind of renewal of national spirit because of the term presidency, and it got me
Is it possible that another theirs? I see little spring buds everywhere around me if you're it
If you work for mainstream media company, I like they lead, we have never had more readership than we had
ass few weeks, anomaly reached we have people without people without searches, excursions people want suddenly what
four journals. They understand that if you don't pay for you get Archie and in four worse there. If you they're getting that did your time
seen that the biggest surgeon is online traffic online, subscriptions ever and meanwhile papers that have been less to the fore in telling the truth, but Don T let the Wall Street Journal have seen their prospects damage. There's. If the market is saying, we want truth and prepare a report
Now there are, there are limits here, but because remember most people do get the news from Facebook. Facebook is immediate biggest and most important media company in America and Fox NEWS is going from strength to strength left ass, an unfortunate development.
But I see a real rise in civic engagement. You see these people
We are coming to the town halls. That is tremendously, in spite, that's how you all the authorities account go to their town halls, confront your comrades and be
respectful and responsible, but before he works for you. After all, she works for you at eight. So that's the scenario is it. This becomes. A season of political engagement
The new energy and journalism is pretty obvious and that's fairly thrilling accept
Fake news. Meme is really insidious me there there's the real fake news and then there's the fake fake news as the,
Spurgeon cast upon real news as being fake just because you don't happen to like it, this is obviously come in mostly from the right and from Trump defenders. How do we a knock you later? Our selves against the power of this mean more? Basically, everyone has silo themselves. My new source considers year your new source, fake news, and you return the favour. It should just be obvious that when the New York Times commits an error and corrects it that does not view she ate the integrity of the New York Times for all time, and that certainly doesn't put it on all fours with some blog. That is just
manufacturing, fake news, and yet that seems to be what has happened there. People who just will not trust anything in not be mainstream media. Now? What do we do with it? Glittered less make sticks consumers. Good scientists often get
and the truth seeking process New Britain about the true seeking process is not once were used,
start, if you, if you knew it already, wouldn't need to go see it. It is a process of hypothesis of checks, of errors and a correction.
The corrections are integral to the process as any other part of it and ass the differences.
At the end, of course, that we all have a bias. It's in your time, Sweden has long biases policies, both in terms of of
what they select. I think in retrospect, people will look back on the net
cause you twenty sixteen inside. In the face of this suddenly catastrophe there was Donald Trump was about to do more to market.
Did you really output, eighty articles or whatever it was? What transgender writes? That was why that was your news. That was your great crusading, causing you're twenty sixteen, you joking. They have ices and imperfections applause, but that there are two different business
from delivered the deliberate production of propaganda, which is the portuguese business, whether the construction actually of lies, in order to have political that, which is what our Tito's, though those our differences. How'd, you get past them.
You alluded you. Your question contained the answer, which is its. We wish. It were true that the reason
that we have that we're polarize nor opinions is because we have different fast if it also loegria taxi dancing opinions as
refrain this, in my opinion, exactly correctly, we start with the different points of view, and then we go find different facts to support our point of view so
The answer is problem about media is embedded in an answer to our society.
We have to find some way to make american society more cohesive, and I have my thoughts about that. The police to different report on Spanish, a more effective until he society people feel more people feel they are. Full participants will be adding less vulnerable to this kind, and so, when you say you are thought to differ from my: U picture some significant role for religion
here to bring people together. Delicious decisions are important, I think, there's a slowdown in the rate of integration is important. We have to be the as society becomes more diverse and comes less mutually trusting
We think that policy comes to feel more and more like a zero sum game. I think we are
need to see an acceleration of economic growth, we need to see,
we need to be much more clearly.
And about the fact that if your town is slowly dying, you're gonna have to leave it
not that the job you got that the people must move jobs, not the jobs of the pit. This has nothing to do with Trump. We just have this: the basic fact that technological progress is, of necessity, replacing human labor and the labors not coming back those coal mining.
You're, not going to come back and the auto working jobs, not gonna, come back when autoworkers get replaced by robots. We just have to deal with all of the casualties of that progress head
on retraining for a fifty five year old, auto worker, that autoworkers now
and it be the next software engineer at Facebook right. So we need a social
if the net and have a new ethic of absorbing the consequence of bad luck better than we do well- and this is the statistics
for after optically Saddam inside looks of the ESA, this are contained on the left. We do
a more universe and were national system of health coverage that people should not be if they should not be trapped in town,
ass. If they move to a place where there is more work, they have to worry that their healthcare
which will be will be lost.
But some things are hard teachings like we really
it'll. Take another look at this. This disability system are you, it is witches,
turn into de facto income supplements for people been made jobless, redundant
by technological change, and I sympathise with the judges. Didn't you
sit in that chair and you see twenty cases day a man who are genuinely heard or injured, who could work better,
the skills to work and who, if you know,
this disability pension, are eligible for virtually nothing. So the judge, crass and stress- can be bought difficult for those lock them in their places where they
they live being defended
would you industry and was known as the people appearing cancer, but via their role in the distribution of these opium? Painkillers is not enough.
And we need again read and out of it. I think we all have one of the test of our intellectual love.
Vitality willingness to let things it bother us more change. Our views were things bother us.
As you know, I've always been, for example, very hard, like I've, been very much in line with a mere one question, but I,
and I had to consider new if, if, if people have mild recurring pain- and they wanted to do something- probably is better that they use marijuana than opulence. And so that's part of my
Those are some of the details of the new doors. I taught me for my daughter
as a challenge to our citizenship is a challenge to the frozen. None of our political discussions that we have these real,
problems- and we have these stagnant Republican, a democratic parties frozen in the politics of the eighties and workers are somewhat worsen. The Democrats only slightly better and it created the readiness for this agent to destroy yeah. Well, it's a pleasure to
begin the process of digging out with you, and you are very much a man who is meeting his moment is wonderful to see you on Twitter. I recommend that all of us,
nurse follow you on Twitter. You are just stay fount of good information and appropriate ire on the topic of what's happening in Washington right now, so please keep it up
I thank you for taken so much time with me. I know you are very busy and I hope this is just the first of many conversations and I hope we have more fun.
Things to talk about the future. I'm really honour to be here, and I salute your work and you ve always was a great gases. Have problems still are those that was really wonderful interview, and so am. I am honoured to be able to talk to you with you sitting in the bill March at nice. In the inner city centres, Aristotle, thank you so much. He had to be continued.
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Transcript generated on 2020-03-23.