In this episode of the Making Sense podcast, Sam Harris speaks with Douglas Murray about his book The Strange Death of Europe: Immigration, Identity, Islam.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Today. I'm speaking with Douglas Murray Douglas is an associate editor at the spectator and he writes for many other publications, including the Sunday Times standpoint and the Wall Street Journal
so given talks at both the british and european parliaments and at the White House and he's most.
The author of a wonderful book, titled the strange death of Europe, immigration, identity
Islam, and if you don't know him Douglas, is a truly wonderful debater. I recommend you check out more or less any
You can find from him on Youtube Douglas NICE,
a lot of time in this podcast. Certainly, most of the time talking about the situation in Europe Weather
back to immigration and Islam.
And the social attitudes in the Muslim Community theater
guys with values that really should be really must be non negotiable, like
speech, and women's rights and gay rights
and what I'd like to point out is that neither of us are against immigration and you might not notice that in the first hour or so, and we're not against muslim immigration,
in fact both of us count among our friends muslim,
homes and former Muslims, who are precisely the sorts of people. We are most concerned to protect
And in particular, worried about protecting them from many of the illiberal people who
even pouring into Europe. I know there is something,
Douglas and I disagree about. I think we have a different sense of the place of Christianity as
a foundation of western values. I don't give it much of a place at all
certainly not a contemporary one and Douglas does but will tackle.
In another podcast,
this one we more or less fully agree on what we're against and what we're against is
western civilization, committing suicide, and if you think that puts the matter too strongly, you haven't read Douglas
and you probably haven't been paying much attention to what's been happening in Europe and if you think one has to be a fan of Trump and
worry about this. Well then, you haven't been paying attention to this podcast, but on the topic of Trump Trump, just gave a speech in Poland where he said- and I quote-
The fundamental question of our time is whether the w has the will to survive. Do we have the
difference in our values to defend them at any cost. Do we have enough respect for our citizens to protect our borders,
do we have the desire and the courage to preserve our civilization in the face of those who would subvert or destroy it and
and while I find abundant fault with the messenger, as you know, I can't find fault with that particular message and the fact that liberals can't seem to see what's at stake here. The fact that they are embarrassed to
defend quote western values as though that were synonymous with racism with the legacy of colonialism or xenophobia, or a lack of compassion,
That is making liberalism politically defunct at this point, and then
Re singly worries man it happily in the United States, we are in a better situation. Do.
Graphically and with respect to immigration and just geographically
and that has implications for immigration, but one,
not be cheerful about, what's been happening in Europe and in his book
in this conversation, Douglas finds a path through this wilderness of competing
turns. That is deeply ethical and also deeply pragmatic, and I don't think Trump comes up or if he does it's just in passing, so
kill yourself spared but Douglas, and I get into the fair
a gloomy thesis of his very witty book, which is that what
happening in Europe is something that,
Not even the most paranoid people would have predicted a decade ago, and it concerns all of us, and now I give
Douglas Murray, I
I'm here with Douglas Murray Douglas thanks for coming back on the podcast
a pleasure to be with you, it's been what almost two years yeah I I have. Actually I haven't checked, but it was. We last spoke when the refugee crisis in Europe was getting its most press here in the in the US. I know it
going on for years before that unremarked more or less here, but we spoke about
immigration and all of its attendant problem
and we will cover some of the same ground again because you've written this great and heroin book on the topic now, but first congratulate
in the book, it seems well launched and it's a fantastic book. Well, thank you. That's very kind. It's just really a beautiful read Anna
it's it's it's grim, I don't get me wrong away. There's there's not a lot of hope in the book, but it's it's very funny. Your style of approaching this is rather than be hacked terrain and communicating in a sustained sense of emergency. You become quite ironic, and I recommend people pick it up simply to be amused. In addition to being terrified, a fine combination feeling it's all too rare in a you've, painted a picture of certainly the possible destruction of Europe, and, I would say, even the likely destruction of Europe you could. You can walk me back from the cliffs edge if you think, I'm being too pessimistic over the course of this hour.
But it's hard to feel hopeful that this will turn out well and at the center of this you paint a picture of a really a morally exhausted civilization and one one. That is certain of absolutely nothing. Apart from the fact that it
there's no right to think itself better than any other civilization. So I guess we could just start
kind of nihilism and self doubt at the core of this pro
No, I am I mean the book is, is cold the strange death of your up with the subtitle immigration, identity, Islam and I'm not been thinking about inviting about these areas and researching of a very long time now, and it was during the twenty fifteen crisis, the the the migrant crisis refugee crisis that I sort of realized. This was just some. This was the epitome of everything that had been going on the and the the the the core thing really was with two things. One was the mass movements of people into your openness bed up form of something that's been going on for decades, and the second was the the fact that this would be happening at the time that, in my view, in Europe with lost any faith in itself for its own right
to continue, particularly in a recognizable form, and I think the combination of these two factors is it's pretty hard to see how this ends well. But you know I I I constantly throughout the book, tried to show that it's not it's not the case that
it's not the case that there's no argument for, for instance, Angla Merkel.
Opening the doors. It's not as there's. No, no,
understandable reason or no justification for Europeans feeling the way they do about their history or the way in which we feel towards our path.
And the way in which we therefore fill in the present at an I you know, I'm trying to explain
because it's something we all feel to my mind at any rate, something like this crisis
goes down in the middle of all of us. I mean it's, you know there are people on the left. You say let everyone,
in that some people, the right to say you know very few of somebody's idea. Let them drown. I think these of these of people who are a peddling fantasies, albeit very dark and grim fantasies, but they are they're, not they're, not things you can. You know, then, all things most of us could possibly think and so
so therefore, what I'm trying to do is to layout what is what we are really facing
in all its grim complexity and amusement yeah.
Thank you find that the middle line there wonderfully, as you point out in the book. This really, for the most part, isn't a contest between good and evil. This is a contest between competing virtues of it and I think you put it in terms of
Justice and mercy- yes and that's not often remarked on, because each side is so busy painting the other as heartless or insane yes. This is this is one of the things I've felt so
strongly in recent years and which you know, we've all come across some symptoms of demonstrations of, but I
to my mind, this is this is what we should do with all these sort of complex issues. I I had strong feelings that we were doing something suicidal in your
but I knew also that I had to go and look this in the face. I had to see it at its. It is hot, as I had to go through as I did to the reception ports of Southern Europe, of the italian and greek islands and and speak to the people that we just got off the boat, to see the boats coming in to to hear,
the stories of the people coming from all over Africa, N Africa, Sub Saharan Africa, the Middle EAST, the farries people, from as far away as Bangladesh, Afghanistan, Pakistan,
and I had to hear their stories as well as hearing from the you know, the speaking to people in the chancelleries of Europe and so on and and the reason for this was, as you mentioned,
this thing that you know we are very used. Sadly, in all of our political discussion to discussions that the basically you know, I'm I'm Churchill you're Hitler or I'm church,
your Chamberlain and I'm good. You are not see, and it's
it's my view that, on something like the migration crisis, it's it's. It's only possible to see it. In these terms of competing virtues, I'd take of merit staffel that they're all they're, all, sometimes things that are too good a two virtues colliding and that this was such a time when, when, as I say, I mean the the the desire to be-
generous to the world ends up. In my view, overriding what should be a sense of justice for the people of Europe. Well, I want to talk about the ethics of immigration in a few minutes, because I think this is.
It is a nontrivial ethical and Eve
psychological problem to figure out what one thinks about this and how one can be justified in in having a position here that isn't a suicide pact essentially, but I I want to I want to illustrate the suicide pact, because the details are surprising is that some of what you describe is fairly predictable. It's it's of a piece with the masochism and self doubt that that Postmodernism has
red really to the limits of of culture. So people be familiar with it with some of the details, but there's some things that have happened that actually seem impossible and and to even speak about these event.
I feel, like I'm trafficking in lies and conspiracy theories, even to speak of them. They are so incredible to me
so? This is one of those topics where we have to
measure more or less, every sentence against our listeners capacity to wonder whether or not we have our facts wrong or the or we've lost our minds, and so I want to start the conversation.
One of these extreme cases known as the Rotheram scandal, because I mean because first of all, this is not
As far as I can tell well known at all in the USA.
I think one of the reasons why it has been under reported is that it just sounds incredible and, and the lack of
ability seems to rub off on anyone who would talk about it, so
I just want to listeners to be prepared who haven't heard this story, that in a few mall
so you are going to wonder whether I'm talking to an Alex Jones Character or some other nut case now
We can say, unfortunately, I'm not so Douglas. Just take a couple of minutes to describe what happened in Rotherham. Sure I'm in the context of this is that I've. I tried to explain that absolutely everything that happened in the Post war period in Europe in terms of migration was not expected by anybody at all really, and particularly not anybody
charge politically, and I say that because in two thousand and ten Angela Merkel Famous the time speech and Parts Tom in which she famously said that multiculturalism but failed and went on to say that that it failed utterly and that particular she said the people who came after the war in case of job
Guest workers, mainly from Turkey. She said we expected them to go home and
they didn't well. Of course they didn't. I mean I mean
No looking back, why would you if you were leaving a poor developing country and had landed in a developed country? And you know why would you not then bring your wife and why
with you. If you're with your wife not have children, why would your children not go to the local school and so on and so forth? But it's just a peace with everything that wasn't expected and
One of the things I say in the book when charting out this sort of brief history of this period in post war, european migration is that we got to a stage the so called
cultural area where we were we where we became good at talking about the good sides of it. I mean at the look at the lowest most sort of frivolous and but she very common talking about cuisine, for instance, the benefits we having cuisine times in a minute units understand what he would want to go back to the british food of the nineteen fifties in a bit, but it was also the the the the the the negatives anything bad started
become impossible to say because it was as if that might speak to the whole. Now the most visceral and terrable example of this inability to talk to the bad things that happened emerged in different countries at different times.
And it might having it. In my eyes, you really first in the UK, and that was the scandal that subsequently became known as the Red Room scandalous was in the first decade of this century.
Uh, I became aware of it, and other journalists did because two groups of people really started to me
unit. One were a sikh groups and others in the north of England who complained that there, as it were, girls from their community were being trafficked by Muslim,
and the other was it. It started to become a focal point for some far right elements in the UK
and this was at a time when the British National Party, which is you know
really and truly racist
it's in NEO Nazi Party it it's it's now, thank goodness pretty much moribund, but for a moment they got
just a million votes in the Uk- and there were two to our shame. There were two members of the Europe
in parliament, for the British National Party and
They made enormous headway with this or tried to, and this is around two thousand and four and at the time there was at cheered Channel four document.
It was meant to because some finally, some journalists took a
interest in it and channel four was meant to broadcast a documentary about this. What became known as the grooming gangs scandal, and it was actually stopped from broadcasting at the request of local police, among others, who feared that it would be a recruiting sergeant for the British National Party forthcoming elections so that the documentary was was a canceled. It was subsequently showed off two elections and at the time it was deemed to be less volatile. But I'm is that was that that episode
so it was sort of general issue, which was that people really didn't want to know about these toys. These. What is worth it largely. It was thought these were events that were happy.
In northern towns outside the sort of metropolitan London bubble and
so they're easier to ignore for a lot of people, but-
Within the last decade it became increasingly hard to ignore it and eventually uh the government set up an official inquiry into what went wrong.
And it turned out that in the town of Rotherham alone, up to one thousand four hundred
The young girls had been systematically groomed and raped often gang raped.
By gangs of muslim men largely of pakistani origin, and it was a DV official inquiry into this government inquiry
found that the fear of accusations of racism as it were, penetrated and prevented the police and local author
Acting on this, even when the local outcry was really very, very strong indeed, and it gets
That's because on forces will know of, like the catholic church rate scandals in with all sorts of other similar cases. Sadly, what happens is the first story breaks, and then you learn the depth of the width of the problem and this in the he lost a few years. It's turned out of that was similar cases in towns across the north of England
and in places that people uhm thought to be more leafy and green in Oxford. Shirt bears people, think Oxford, dreaming, spires, etc, etc. In Oxford sure there was a case of five years ago. Now that came to trial the operation.
Bulfinch case, where numerous young white girls again often underage her being trafficked for sex by
muslim gangs, and I mean the details that came out of that trial
The old Bailey in London included, for instance, at one of the men, branded one of the girls on her backside. I think with an M for Mohammed, which was his name. He branded her as his property and again these uh these cases. When they,
trial they just for the reasons that you and I feel awkward talking about it, the british state, the british people felt awkward and wanted them not to be true, but this was just
the same story in a way that then later emerged after I mean it much faster between that being covered up and coming out, but of similar events that, for instance, music festivals in Sweden. In recent,
as well, it wasn't til Cologne on New Year's eve. Twenty fifteen, that when that that a large scale assaults happened to famous in front of the cathedral on New Year's eve. But then the Swedes, this as sort of having a
noted that turned round and some of the press said: oh yeah, didn't that happen at all music festivals in recent years and
oh yeah that did so, it's a real
scandal and it's an ongoing scandal. There are still many cases coming to trial. I think there's a lot more to find out, but it is just a symbol. A symptomatic example of this deep, deep discomfort of this
discussion, because if you or I had been asked to invent a sort of gross
you know racist sort of favorite trope, it would be. You know well, they'd, complain
about people coming over here and raping our women- and I think that's that's one of the reasons that it's uh
but it's been so little covered. I have a friend who the journalists who who mentioned to me just a few days ago that he he went to interview some
victims in Rotherham Match, and he said he thought by now,
Is it worth their stories? They'd be talked out about? Their stories have been interviewed so many times, not so these
These women now even now have basically not had a chance to tell their story to the press or not because people just
really don't want to know this stuff. And one of the points in my book is that you know it. Everyone knows the benefits of of some migration, but the downside bits of with still not really willing to face up to it. I'm out of that is it at its absolute most base and was.
Again. This story just puts Maine at the absolute limit of what I find believable the fact that this happened and I'm thinking now specifically about
Rotherham. I mean the numbers of people in this small town and they parents having to appeal
to the police for years, and nothing comes of it right. The fact that the authorities,
stood by and let this happen. You're after year there is
there were so many. I mean I'd test your listeners, patients. If I gave too many examples,
let me let me, give you an example from uh from the Oxford case I mentioned, which is sort of in the Uk- it's less well known than, rather than which has become really well known in the UK, but in New York
case. There was a girl who is quite often the young girls were bribed with drugs and things or plied with drugs and alcohol, and so on, as one case of a girl who was actually in a care home in Oxford and she was being gang raped and she managed to escape.
And you got back to the children's home. She was in meant to be being looked after by local authorities, and she didn't have the money for the taxi that she had managed to hail to get her back to the care home and the car himself thought that she was just playing opposite. Were she? The taxi driver took her back
she was gang raped again I mean it's sort of wholesale failure of you know
This is what it why it particularly has begun to. Oldies has for time. Some people really speak to a greater failing, because we'd like to think. I think that young people, particularly young people, in troubling cat homes and things are actually the people the state should most look off to and and careful and that that it that stage that such a total lack of care, that you could end up
basically facilitating. That is, I think, horrifying, well yeah and facilitating it at a certain point.
Knowingly I mean so the thing that the situation we just described is a horrible miss,
you're standing on some level, but when you have the police,
knowing what's happening but be
unwilling to investigate for fear of being perceived as racist.
Right either way yeah by the way that that that that that the interesting thing is some of your listeners may not know the background to this this this. This also speaks a fascinating thing again, which doesn't come from no way the police didn't. Have that fear for no reason.
Uh. In the 1990s the night there was a famous a racist murder in Britain about black teenager called Stephen Lawrence.
It was it was murdered on the streets and he his killers, weren't brought to trial for
long time, and one of the failings, undoubtedly in the Lawrence case, was the presumption by the police that it had been a black on black gang murder, and this was encouraged by
various people. This perception and it when there was a report in the late nineties, into this, the the the Macpherson report. It was cold. It found that the it found that the local police,
what what? Where are the police and you can general work- quote institutionally racist and this label with
Certainly, I would have said accurate in some cases. I think it was far to broader claim to make the british police as a whole
and in the years immediately afterwards, the policeman, but
would be even more adamant that they
for not to tread on to things that you know. Would
would embed that or take them back to having that reputational problem again. So all these things that you no problem
built on problems yeah. What is it
sort of and perhaps even diagnostic about this case,
this for me. Is that an again it really strains credulity on every level. Is that the fact that it's possible? The fact that you have
the whole society being willing to just eat this horror
after a year and do nothing about it? That suggests to me that other
These are possible, and this could have great unraveling- that you sound
like a scaremonger to worry about is POS.
Let me say I mean what freedom would,
you be willing to forfeit
if you're willing to let your daughters and your neighbors daughters by the thousands get gang raped for years. It absolutely,
Believe it I mean another example was a during the same period. The Reverend scandal was starting to break was when the british police admitted that there had been sent me some schools, all of mud is in the? U K, which should almost certainly been circled on them. Does all my crimes, which the police hadn't really bothered to investigate because they were, they were community masses. Right now I mean it's all a part of a stumbling through a period which,
as I say in the book I mean we would just having to improvise during yeah and the interesting
wrinkle here that will will get to, and this is will be quite familiar to our listeners, but that the hypocrisy
here on the left is fairly breathtaking, because you have the same
people who are most concerned about women's rights and gay rights, and even as you
drive even more niche concerns. You know now transgender rights and getting your porn straight.
These are the kind of highest moral priorities. At this moment. These are the very people who seemed quite happy to imp.
For millions of people into their society, for whom
the very notion of women's rights and gay rights and to say nothing of Trans gender rights is not only foreign but anathema. There's a double think here that
Everyone is paying a massive penalty for even
Even the- and this is a point you also make in the book when you look
but the most vulnerable people in these immigrant communities. I mean it so the liberal
Muslims and in the Muslims and the apostates and the muslim reformers, the people who
threaten their lives right who make their lives and actual safety.
Concern from one moment to the next are not by and large the
fascists in the NEO Nazis and the bigots and the xenophobic it's the intolerant Muslim
who are being brought into the same community. It's a subject, that's incredibly disheartening, because it suggests that
um that there are many other things going on. Doesn't it I mean it suggests, for instance, that there are people
you perfectly willing to cover up atrocity really
in order that their own community doesn't have any negative publicity. But
That's that's normal in most communities. I think that you don't want your dirty linen as it were washed in public, but there's
see a greater tolerance of that going. On I mean I mean you might think that you know a small
amount of embarrassment might be not worth airing in public. But you know: considerable numbers of gang rapes might be serious enough to actually think it's.
Having it out and then there is the, to my mind, supplement
problem in a way of the people who basically think that this
is a story about white working class girls and they don't find much sympathy for them to put it at its strongest by the way. I'm just I mean it's a very, very slightly analogous, but example, but I was following with great interest in the case of this american student who died last week, who
fruit flies in North Korea are often trying to take out a post also will be a the base of the whole horrible story. That in a way, was was most striking, was the the the I mean, and it's not as if the north korean authorities behave differently from one would expect,
but there was this glee on parts of the left on Huffington, Post, some salon and so on
when he got arrested and detained
and and then brutalized and tortured and beaten as it turned out to death, because he was sort of beneficiary of white privilege and ha ha.
So it was, it was both having to pay send some long, yeah ha ha he's just let the limits of white privilege he's. I think how much how much sickness you have to have
as a human being to respond to these stories with this kind of.
Political reflex that actually
Yeah, I mean I mean overrides all humanity, and that's really, I think, one of the the the less spoken about things in this whole Rotherham sort of thing. With this kind of these a white working class
ash, you know not people are on the nose sort of thing and and therefore not not deserving of your pity or concern me yeah and, and that's especially odious when you refer
select on the fact that some of these girls were as young as eleven right yeah. It is
mind boggling. I saw that piece and I think it was the Huffington Post on the
Korea Incident and it is yeah the idea that his white privilege cause him to think
that he could tear down a propaganda poster with impunity and and that he got his just desserts for for that sort of arrogance
wrecking of ones hopes for humanity to see that sentiment even articulated. I want to talk a minute about the ethics of immigration, because this is so. This is the other side
out of the equation this is they felt moral imperative, which I certainly feel to respond generously to the unluckiest people on earth.
The screw that comes to the moral in defense, ability of good luck
right, I mean so like when I search my mind, I can
find any way to argue that I deserve my good luck, I'm extraordinarily lucky and among
the many reasons I could list one
comes to mind as I'm extraordinarily lucky not to have been born a woman in Afghanistan. Now to what can I ascribe that? Good luck? Well, it's just pure good luck. I didn't
there's nothing. I imagine I did in my past life or in Utoro to earn that good luck, and so, when I think of the unlucky
people who happen to be women in Afghanistan or in
anyone in Syria. At the moment. I can't justify this ethical disparity, and so this
the just the sheer fact of the matter that I I seem to have emerged in part of the world where I was simply given citizenship and where good luck, an opportunity just more or less grows on
and you have millions of people born elsewhere into circumstances that are about as pointlessly wretched as any in human history. So the question
How does one live a moral life in light of this kind of disparity, and how do we build societies in light of this fact that that good luck has not been spread equally over the
surface of the earth and societies that aren't that are organized around a moral vision that we can defend and I'm happy to have you give you our answer to that question, but it clearly can't be me that this is the dancer that I think we want to close the door to an end. This is an answer to some people have
to defend it, can't be that we have a moral obligation to let as many people
it's possible move into our society in such numbers that it becomes scarcely better than the societies they are leaving.
I can't see this from some kind of principle of osmosis which just create
the lowest common denominator of all possible fates on earth and that's something that is defended by essentially some.
Mariem Namazi, who I had on the podcast to the the absolute frustration of every listener-
the problem of open borders. Perhaps you want to touch it, but it seems to me that can't be a solution at some
point you are regulating the flow at at a minimum. Yes, of course, and
I mean, I'm single idea, framed in this sense 'cause, that's obviously how most you know, decent people in the West feel these days I mean we don't
feel that we've not only won the lottery of life but deserve it. You know it. We know that its lock, we all have friends who almost does have friends who have been born without some of that lock and have a quiet it and- and
so that also makes us feel more aware of the luck
and uhm and more unable to explain. You know what we should do and why we should keep anyone else
shout from sharing it, and I E. I think that one of the bit cities is least focused in on all this is, is the long term point and it's when you touch on there about about the open borders things he for.
For short term reasons, one could understand why uh we have the views. We do for long term reasons, it's inexplicable that, for instance, you would,
I think that you could import, as angular Merkel did, in twenty fifteen alone an extra up to two percent of the population in a single year
and fit not to have long term effects. I recount
with the end of my book, a conversation with a great sport of angling, my clothes in the german bundestag- and it made me hate Tom, on one of the thoughts which I expressed in the book about this, which is that we seem to think at this stage in awe liberal democracies that all of them are labeled boxes this.
So appealing and so strong that, basically, if you bring the world in, it comes up to speed with us almost immediately or the same one point in the book. You know that to just walk into Europe is to immediately breathe the air of Saint Paul and Bowl
There- and it seems highly unlikely to me- to put it no stronger- that everybody who walks into Europe arrives at the same point that we are at in regards to our views on religion, our views on all sorts of rights, questions and others it
just very implausible to me. But then then the idea that uh changes and
see it anyway. I say that it's it's we
understand US societies to be more like a fragile ecosystem, where you con just endlessly test things all and put new things in and expect the whole thing to look the same, it's much more likely that the did a look very different, and therefore you should you
take care with it and take care with the thing you've inherited in order that you you posit on at least you pass on something it isn't. You know a grand version of the Balkans, and that says, with brings with the other analogy, which I at one point his on the main somebody would find it uncomfortable because, because so many of the people coming into Europe come on boats and so many of the boats, thanks to the smugglers,
very rickety vehicles indeed. But I say what what what if Europe is not this massive line of that can just keep taking people on, but a boat itself, which which has to decide how many people it can take on before it itself capsizes, and I think that
This is something we have not given sufficient thought to, and, of course, one of the reasons is that it isn't a science is it I mean it's it's not as if there was a a a Groff one could produce to show to the point at which people become uncomfortable about where this aside he's getting the point at which the welfare stretch is too great, centered central
it's just something you get feelings about, and that's why I have one chapter on what I call an early warning sirens, a very as people who went off across Europe in recent decades. Different people left wing feminists that ripped up a gay activist, the
at the be res, went off saying, hang on, I'm I'm starting to get nervous about the future, and then we can. I mean we. We didn't really listen to those, because we we kept on to this idea that it doesn't matter because when
we'll get to hear they'll realize how great it is and they'll become just like us. This intuition is also propped up by arguments in favor of immigration that you dispatch fairly early in the book and they're, really that that is really a set of myths in at least on certain points about immigration, aging, society and all that yeah yeah, perhaps
take a minute or two to talk to those, because people have this sense that this is not only a in some sense inevitable, but but necessary. There's no alternative for Europe. You have a good this senescent continent that needs workers. What else could be done?
yes, I I I go into that in some depth, Delfield in the books, just to sort of dispensing, because during the twenty fifteen crisis, when we were thinking so little about all the things we should should have been thinking about that since the law
I heard these recurring themes that I'd had for my life about mass migration, which was that there was
It is, and these were all by the way justifications that always came off to something that would have happened anyway. So you got the sense that it wasn't as if we were arguing for something and then it would happen we what something happened. Then we have to find an explanation that kind of justify
the actions, and that I mean I give these numbers. I mean this is the office of the economic argument and it the L Matt.
Uh. I mean surveyed a lot of the literature, if not all of it. You know. I say that the best you can say the economic argument is five thousand and fifty at some about fifty percent of studies say that there's a great benefit about zero dollars and fifty cents here is a great negative
Yes, we kind of evens out and actually in the U K at any rate, the the most persuasive side to date found that over a fifteen year period, the the the my goodness into the U K had it taken out something like a hundred and fourteen billion pounds more in benefits, and they put the
on in taxes, and, of course you know, everyone can tell, because of course I mean the deal with the welfare state is meant to be that you you pay in.
And you know, and everyone's gonna have a hard time. Maybe at some point some people will at some point or you know, you'll pay, M B, O cousin went and they they've been. You know when they have a lot of bad time. They benefit the sound. Of course. If that's gonna work out more evenly,
and say if you were family, just moved in and needed to use the welfare state a great deal, and- and so you have to sort of tell tell Fibs about- and that's one of the ones we have told is that it's it's just endlessly. Economically beneficial, whereas in actual fact the economic
benefit most the time a cruise to the income are not not to the society and then,
we get the ones like an aging population. We heard this Angla Merkel's government,
where a graying aging population in germany- I mean you, know, first of all,
Getting old, isn't, isn't such a bad thing. I mean I'm glad we didn't die in our forties anymore. You know, I mean it's
If you are an aging population and you need to deal with keeping yourself in the standards to which you become accustomed.
Uh. I lay out a whole set of things you could do like Japan is done, and others have done to try to get used that you can raise,
time and date, you can find a better work balance for the over sixties and so on, but there's a whole load of things that you do before deciding the next generation of Germans.
Be from Eritrea and there's a whole set of things
that and then, of course, the diversity argument, which is that even
if it doesn't make us rich man,
migration makes us much more interesting and that the culture
Europe is kind of boring and the the culture of Boston Shakespeare and got so and a and Dante you know it needs them, may know a lot of in it input from the
to the world, something which is I've often said one way system I mean no one says we need to inject some Welsh culture into Pakistan. You know it's
It's a one way thing and of course again it builds on the decency I mean who doesn't want to have some knowledge of the world and of the world's cultures. You know it it'll be mad to deprive ourselves of it, but of course the fact is is that you don't keep benefiting the more people come in, and it may be that you have a point to which you had enough. You know immigration from a particular culture and that the benefits don't keep on giving and then. Finally, I suppose is the point about
that you make that that it's as if well it doesn't matter all the
things don't matter, even if they're not true, it doesn't matter Becaus. It's just going to happen anyway, because this is globalization, and this to some extent, is one of the worst arguments of all, because it it makes us have to be totally fatalistic and just take everything
as it happens, because there is no other option and I think, by the way, that any
thing where, as I give LOS examples in the in the book of polls and and public opinion, Natchez anything where there is a concern, that is just repeatedly the top concern of the public to keep on as a political cross
saying. Well, it's just going to happen anyway. There's nothing you can do about. It seems to me, among many other things, to be deeply disenfranchising.
Yeah. It's interesting the example of Japan you mentioned because Japan is by comparison, a close
society. I mean they make it very difficult to immigrate if I understand this correctly, and that is an attitude of
Maintaining the purity of their culture, for which they have been coming into very much criticism and know there, there's there's a sense that there's a kind of kind of a racism issue in Japan
But it's not something that you hear the world cry.
Foul over year after year. We don't treat them like apartheid, South Africa or anything, and it has the recognition that that it's
just from it attitude to take, but why would it be legitimate
in Japan and totally legitimate,
By the way I mean I'm not not zero immigration. I just think we should be a lot slower with it and certainly not do it on the rate of recent years and also
far choosier about the type of immigration we want in the future?.
Yeah and I'm not for zero immigration at all either, but that's something that perhaps all spell
in a minute, but I have I've, spelled out several times in this podcast.
You know your example of the food in the in the
in the UK, that's a little before my time, but I can say even as recently as one thousand nine hundred and eighty it was, it was pretty grim and there's
there's, no one who can begrudge the influx of good, indian restaurants and and falafel in
I'm the. U K that was a moral emergency of its own sort. How is Eastern Europe different from Western Europe and in this respect in and how they responded to the migrant crisis? That's it is a very important question on when I go into in some depth of the book
the most. Almost everything that I'm describing in this book is about what's happening in Western Europe, with migration and
most of it, if not all of it is highly relevant to the american debate. That's going on at present, because it seems to me that we, I just very advanced down this argument for the for the west of that. The that America is the starting off on as well hello
is going somewhere on, as well as the issues eyesight of a picture of a civilizational societal, cultural male. So I described in the book, but I'm including the sense of what I described is tiredness a nexus ten
Civilizational tiredness does not emerge in the same way in Eastern Europe so that, for instance, during the height of the crisis, in twenty fifteen, a crisis by the way.
Stress not not any, was going on for years beforehand, but it's still going on. You know. On an average weekend, ten thousand people come in to one italian islands alone, so this isn't just a twenty fifteen thing, but during the height of the crisis in twenty fifteen wealth, Western Europe was was was racking itself with its guilt and with it it will one
its responsibilities the world should be. The slovakian prime minister is a left. Winger Ann
and the hungarian Prime Minister, who is certainly a right winger
whereas one on the issue that they would not take the migrants, they would not take quotas and agreed in particular that they didn't want to take muslim migrants into there.
And this, whether you agree with it or not, is a very striking a piece of unanimity in Eastern Europe. Now there are lots of reasons you could give for it
but if it if it comes down to one- and I spoken to many people and traveled the say all across those bits of Europe as well. If
could get it down. To one thing I would say it's this: they Western Europe
to my mind, like North America, basically to completely lost or famous spanish floss, described as the tragic sense of life we
We think that not only were we born in this luck, but this luck will continue forever and it's a baby
boomer thing, but a post, baby, boomer thing too, and it's it it's basically it
we can't foresee or imagine what for most of human history has been foreseeable and imaginable, and Eastern Europe. This is the great generalization of the situation which is allowed in much more complexity. In the book, but the Eastern Europe
basically has retained the tragic sense of life, and it knows that even the things you care about,
most in all the world, even your holy places.
Can be trampled upon and ruined our silly
people who are unworthy of them and they thought that in the 1930s
and again in the 40s and again in the 50s, and they were swept,
away from one direction and then the other direction they were swept again and after surviving those hurricanes. I
I think they are far more wary. Maybe
over where you could say, I or you could say appropriately wary of the huge gamble that the rest of Europe is taking with its collective security,
identity, yeah and that's a a condition of
oblivious to the tides of history that I,
very familiar with personally, because they really many people in the. I think share this this
and in this memory, what it really was not until September 11th, two thousand and one
that I realized that we were
still living in history either
where the wheels can come off in any sense. And so it's it is sobering to realize that it is possible to not see that there's any significant implication to anything
it's happening, because your Iphone will continue to work until the end of the world and Facebook is will be,
forever and absolutely no. As I said, this sort of you know who I am fatalism about, the the the the difference is Bill id's or lack of entrance two of the differences.
Between things. You know, I say you know, I don't know
I might do Christianity, she might do
Islam, he does yoga away be interested in the differences
Isn't that isn't that bigoted
and uh and uh
back of interest leads is a self fulfilling thing. Obviously, so how would you compare? The
situation in the? U K now to the situation in France or the or the rest of the of Western Europe. Well, I'm in some ways it's all
same I mean that all bits of the same continue
had a very interesting conversation sometime ago with a swedish MP who, after a recent blow up in the media over the the rates that, since we didn't you know, we end up having a because it was really interesting. I I was, as I said at one point, you know I mean
Just just take it from what happened here in Britain, it's much better if you, if you own up to the fact, will try to find out about the fax now than that. You continue to do this kind of nothing to see here. That's protect our national pride sort of thing, and and as I say to that extent, there are all sorts of very unpleasant things have just the same story playing out in different ways in other ways
the difference is all important. I've always said that, in a way I think of frogs, like America could come out civil, this better placed than other countries. I mean a. I give the example I mean if, if, if
if you put any any other country in Europe throughout France, is being through in the last two years and imagine you know the most strident secular voices all being massacred in the morning and then a priest being massacred having his throat slit at the altar while saying Mass,
and you know truck mowing down eighty people and killing them and him injuring many more and and a night of terror in the capital and endless car bombs and and stabbings, and so on
all in the name of the same ideology and religion. I think other countries might have reacted worse by now, and I think that, to that extent, France, like America is got a certain residual strength from the fact that the republic,
you know can be this strong, very clear and at times necessarily stern a thing and that that France, for instance, has been able to weather it, partly because of that this is an assault on the republic. You know it's harder to sort of break, break the soc down,
the fragmenting way that has happened elsewhere. But that said, you know one of the most one of the questions I've got off while so I've been you know it traveling across yet for this book. Every time I speak to any official Lois spoke twenty fifth,
showing people always asked, and journalists will ask the. Where is the integration thing worked? You know better than the other.
I say at one point in the book. You know that one of the things that we used to say about this years ago was now look at the french models worked really well and then the Bonelli Earl it up and then
the old that troubles, and so people turned away from looking at the french integration model is a maybe the british one. You know it's the one and then the anglo Saxon model you know didn't stop, ran a race riots in Oldham in two thousand and one
stop the London underground bombings in two thousand and five and hasn't stopped the spate of terror attacks. We've had three years three islamist attacks in ten weeks,
and so we thought well, maybe not the Anglo Saxon, and then he looked at Scandinavia. Anything well, it's all looked good up there, but now it's kind of going rancid
other things. So maybe it's not that we haven't next, the integration thing
maybe it is that we are in the middle of finding out that we just can't do integration when it's at this speed with the people that we have had,
And this is, of course, a very uncomfortable suggestion, but it is
Maybe we actually can't digest this, maybe it's not the fault of our digestion system and there's a considerable distance between the thinking of ordinary people in Europe at this moment and that of their leaders. What have you
cleaned about public opinion in Europe. Now let me give you I never so many a really striking opinion polls. I given the book, which
which show, by the way, a migration in one direction only in public opinion. I may have said to you before that I mean you know nobody
he says I used to really worry about islamic extremism, and now I don't as such a devastating
sentence, because you can
even imagine our detractors demerit on that point and them, and- and it is a you see this in opinion polls where, even even in a country like Germany, whether people are really most most of the obvious reasons. Sort of wanting to be shown to be
seem to be tolerant and indeed being tolerant. You see the the movement of opinion in only one direction.
By the way. Whenever a pole comes out, I give some examples in the books, some which are rather funny almost uh
proposal comes out saying you know X, percent of the public. You know they're worried.
Islam and think it's connected to violence or something you know the opinion pages are always filled up with. How can we correct the public, something
not having any massacres for a few days would be one way.
How about how about not having a massacre this week um, but instead there is this reflex reaction still that it's our response to it, not the thing that it needs to be
rectified, and I,
I give to the end of the one,
which is really really stark early
this year when you're american listens. Among others, will remember. The US president called for a temporary travel ban on on people from seven very unstable countries, all of which are muslim
the majority countries yeah, I mean you couldn't move anyway and polite societies. We used to call it and find anyone who thought this was anything other than a evil, terrible policy and so on, and I would without making any comment on on on the policy. What what struck me is more interesting was that, but at the same time of of an opinion poll was being carried out across Europe, asking for a harder question than the one that Donald Trump raised. They were us not whether a temperate travels expansion to the car would be
from seven unstable muslim majority countries, but whether they agreed or disagreed with the statement they didn't want. One more Muslim in their country and in
um eight out of the ten european countries. The majority of the Publix agreed with that statement. They wanted zero, more muslim immigration and that in
did majorities in France and in Germany and one of the only two countries in Europe where that was not a majority opinion was in mine in great Britain, where only forty seven percent of the public agree
with that and uh, and by the way I mean this was in February, this was published. So again, I think it unlikely that
number, has gone down. I would have thought we'd probably gone over the fifty percent mark after recent weeks, and this speaks to one of the things I try to do in this book and
and which I don't know if I will get any thanks for as it were, but we don't expect it of course, do you, but, but that I tried to to meld the conversation. The public is having with the real
including the political reality, because I, at any rate, find it very concerning that this divide is opened up
what is able to be said in public by as it were,
normal mainstream, democrat or Republican at all,
label me, a concession, U K and and the rest of the public, and that and less politicians find a way to bridge that gap in a decent. The you know fashion. Then, then they lose the public and the which is, I think, of development, which is is, is ongoing, has been some time yet, obviously,
a great concern here is the pendulum swing. Tord right wing populism that
is worried about it and they kind of violent backlash of the sort that we we saw a single instance of
in in London just a couple weeks ago, we were aware that the the same style of attack that that ISIS has advertised it spans. It was you
against a London mosque and in Delaware.
Muslim mowed down a crowd of Muslims outside their mosque, and I think it's not too hard to imagine that we could see much more of that sort
thing if the political reality isn't appropriately addressed. Yes, it's terrifying. This picture
I mean I give a. I give examples throughout the book of the way in which this was this was sort of all
is the way I mean the public opinion device. The politicians with was consistent in Europe throughout these decades in it what they did well, the political class did in terms of mass immigration to up with always I'm popular with the public, and I give very examples, one of which will be familiar to many people in Europe, maybe less in America, but a famous conservative politician, Enoch Powell gave a famous if one notorious speech in nineteen sixty eight the became known as the rivers of blood speech, and he was sacked from the conservative, a shadow cabinet for the speech, but he predicts
it's great two sauces in the years ahead, if, if hm, wasn't restricted and them in fact, a opinion polls showed that three quarters of the general public in Britain agreed with the not
Powell and seventy percent believe that that that and he for the TED Heath, the conceptually to have been wrong to sack him. I mean various people, including the very in a liberal left. A conservative former deputy prime Minister, Michael Heseltine, said that you remember the time and said that if, if palette stood for the leadership of the conservative party, I-
that speech and then stood for election in the country. He would have won by a landslide. So this was always the case I mean it was if this was always done in spite of what the public wanted and the dia prognostications begin to look possible when something like the attack, you referred to
to the other day in London a because I am we we've all said for a long time to the sort of backlash you know thing is used as a
as a way for, among other things, people to stop the spotlight being turned on elements in their own community and that's certainly been the case. It's certainly been a tactical thing that certain particularly radical muslim groups of diploid in order to just just get attention off them in the aftermath
have any attack, but but now we just get this in some ways, even more demoralizing than the islamist attacks. The idea that the idea we could we could get into a tip for tat situation. We don't know much about the Finsbury Park attack here yet and I'd be surprised by the way, if we discover that he went to a church where they told you to mow down Muslim
with the van and so on, and if we do discover that by the way I mean there will not be anyone in the anglican communion or in the country as a whole, who says
hang on, don't go, don't don't focus on that judge. You know you've got to understand what they're saying in context and so on. I think we'll get very little of that. You bring up a topic now that that design- I'm very close to my my immediate concern, is with respect to how I spent the last twenty four hours and as
the the level of dishonesty, among so called moderate Muslims on these issues as much as
the rise of a group like ISIS. Really I mean this is not this is this will sound
hyperbolic, but it really isn't the guaranteed dishonesty on these points that we get from prominent, so called
moderate Muslims and their liberal enablers or their leftist enablers. This has made me despair of the future of Islam and its integration with the w as much as anything as much as the rather well demonstrated propensity for suicide bomb.
Among muslim extremists, because it's just I mean the lies, never stop, and so what what's happened in the last twenty four hours
me as I had a podcast, I did with our mutual friend marginal was, and people have taken a sixty seconds of audio from that that podcast, that has been carefully
headed to make me seem like. Not only do I oppose immigration, but I I essentia I essentially am in favor of something akin to ethnic cleansing right.
And Marge is simply acquiescing to these sentiments and they they have
this around twitter and that now it's people like red sauce line and and a religion, Brill and and go yeah people with significant platforms. And what is Hateley obvious, is the
these people know that they're lying at this point? You know there's so much history here, particularly
Someone, like you, mean the famous Hindu Aslan,
accountable now, who ate human brains to prove he
on television and then probably got fired, he's these people
but I mean SAM. I mean I have to say your if I can say that you're far too, understanding
of this. All this overanalyzing of what they're doing they just want to win it
actually more despicable than
it's not 'cause. What I know in the case of someone like raise Ocelot is that.
They know that
like me, and certainly something like Maajid, a racist or something or a fan of genocide, which is this is this. Is this is how extreme this land?
Where is broadcasting this to a
a muslim community that is otherwise completely.
Unfamiliar with my work and so in curious about the context that they would hear any call
for an awareness of contacts as just a Peyton Dodge of the genocidal commitment that I'm now trying to hide right
They know that this raises my security concerns an it.
Calling Majin and Uncle Tom raises his secure
concerns, and these are people who celebrated his
inclusion on the s
poverty, law, center, Anti Muslim, extremist list- and that's actually the thing that has prompted this recent attack on us because module just announced
that he's suing the southern Poverty LAW center for obviously libelous and crazy inclusion in this list and our friend Ion Hersey Ali was included there as well, and the list itself is repugnant, but in any case these people are actually trying to make it dangerous. '
to talk about these things? I want to pose this to you, because I I know you, you live with the same set of concerns both for your own secure
and the security of other people who are doing this work, and I am wondering how you decide who to engage on these issues, because you actually sit down and debate people who,
strike me as totally beyond the pale in terms of their level of dishonesty. Someone like Mehdi Hassan or Tyriq Rama,
even the extreme case? I'm like Anjem Choudary who's can there's no no pretense
Moderation there he say he's just a terrorist recruiter, and these are people, for instance, who I don't think I would have
podcast, because I can't imagine any kind of productive conversation happening. So how do you decide this for yourself and do you have any regrets
on the basis of any of these meetings. Or is this or do we just have different jobs? No
different jobs? I mean if somebody else.
Is it where you would make the invitation to somebody to be on your podcast, whereas these debates you refer to in my case the other people saying we've got this person we need, would like you to. You know counter them in public, and so I sort of think partly for just for the purposes of political hygiene. I think is necessary to do that
show up, and I was very sorry there are more people who want to do that. I'm data is not only an unpleasant job and I can also be found, I'm as delight the other week in Cambridge when Tarik Ramadan you referred to that painted himself against by a friend the fifth spoken Stein, very distinguished liberal dutch politician painted himself as the great opponent of of of the european liberalism. As I had was saying, please see how to stand up and say to the chamber unit. Well, it's very nice.
C Tareq unit will take himself as the embodiment of dot to lever of european liberalism. Of course, the real liberal wouldn't find it so hard to condemn stoning in it, and it's a
great seeing him squirm as he then tries to pretend that the video which anyone can see on the internet of him, saying that with Sarkozy,
and I didn't happen
it's not only in a bad bad news, but I know the specific thing on there:
on yours. It where the detractors thing is that I think there are several things
one is. I mean these people really want to win and they
to win mainly for basically religious doctrinal reasons and often the far left commentators who tackle is basically a sort of religious king
'cause they've got themselves, and- and I mean there are several things to be said about it. One is of course, that one could play the
the Muslim Brotherhood trick on them,
occasionally. I I feel like doing that. Saying. Look if you think you know SAM Harris, you know who to my my
in your head, but the baby ten you're. Not from that I mean, to my mind, is one of the base. Liberals sort of Yahoo, garish meditative, you know West Coast, liberal time
I've got in my address book anyway. That might be that might be because of my address book. But if you think Harris is actually gear,
bring up for genocide, and is you know
the embodiment of all that is hateful in the world. You know you just see what comes down the road and
I do I do sometimes, I think it's says it's to Muslim Brotherhood, a trick to pull off to offer, but I think I think that is worth stating to these people in a way, it's possible
uh of course, that they know that to some degree, and they want
Two, rather like Russia and Bashar, Al Assad in Syria make the conflict
between them and ISIS. You know as it was that they would like it if they could clarify this
debate so that there weren't nuanced and thoughtful and informed people, and it
is only them with their very radical views, earth
facing down. You know people who did
have any of the new ones didn't have any of the of the care in the discussion, and I sometimes think that is the purpose. They want to pick pick you off for that reason,
but yeah they're. Also um, I mean I get
all the time in the wake of the Finsbury Park, attack three muslim organizations, all pretty radical, one of which is just a front for the home anus.
The cause uh on on BBC were allowed to describe me as a hate preacher and the BBC subsequently had to publish broader broadcast and APOLLO
see to me. I saw that I had it. How did you extract that was that is that a manifestation of the
prince between our libel laws, because that's that struck me as a
surprising moment of a sort that I have never experienced myself and never really pursued with much energy because it seems so hopeless in the US.
It may be that I'm I mean. I just think that again it's it's necessary to hold hold the line on facts, and you know if I, if I did call
for people to drive vans into crowds of people exiting masks. Then then, then I should be called a hate preacher, but
but but otherwise it's a very nice dry king and very serious accusation to make that suggests that, instead of being allowed to voice my concerns and and and so on, I'm actually in group recruiting people, I'm anjem chowdhry, like figure recruiting people for the reverse. She had. Does it work and
if it was, becomes a statement of facts as it were permissible on the National Broadcasting Channel. Then that's sort of a different thing as well. I'm of course it is the same thing
it's still people making accusation, but I felt that a line of being crossed there, as I think, measured, didn't,
and frankly, you know uhm if I was a hit up young Muslim in parts of my
country- and I was feeling you know- done ready uh, knowing that the BBC was helping various pretty
hard core groups to basically focus the the the the the gun on me doesn't make me feel I'm generous towards any of this. It's extraordinarily response.
But they get to maybe make it again miss I maybe they just want that. Maybe it is that I've off of off one of
wondered that I mean if you have a sort of we've seen this with Charlie Hebdo and things haven't. I mean the basic,
you know the people go into the office and they gonna later people down for blasphemy and then really the hit is what comes after, which is that you don't have to do it again very much 'cause. Everyone is learned, the lesson and other
people can come along and kind of say well, you know for health and safety reasons we'd rather not host
tonight you know, and it becomes
same way, I mean I mean I mean these people, these
low riding on the coattails of the violent ones, and maybe that
they're very comfortable with that. Actually, maybe
very happy with making
flight you and me feel that we have you know
with guns after us, and maybe they that's just their comfy.
Simple way of winning. You know, they've got they've got the
I didn't need to know them, but they happen to have the advantage of having
our military wing on this side. I'm sorry to say, I think it is that cynical
unethical. I I mean there's certain people who are just oblivious perhaps, and there are no doubt
Liberals are non muslim liberals who just have some form.
Stockholm syndrome and they're they're, not they're, not very thoughtful about what forces are at play here, but I'm confident that many of the principal people are quite happy to increase the security concerns of their yeah of the people there there
tending to merely criticise. If, if I I mean I've, I've been very critical of some of the people. You mentioned some my debating pond, I'm very careful not to stand in front of them. At things all say on social media, he is a jihad is he is exactly the same as ISIS like very careful about it, and it's not just for libel reasons. It said. I think there is a clear difference between some of the people, I'm an opponent of and some of the people, I'm opponent of who are g had this. But if I did it now
those people would also have a legitimate father one which is you know what, if Douglas, is lining us up in that way, and that's why I wouldn't do it among
along as the libel thing and that now
We know that you know you could get a guy like this. This crazy awful man from
miles driving a van into a crowd of people. Leaving must you be doubly careful in that environment? No yearly yeah
on the single occasions. I mean, I think I can count on two fingers the number of times this happened and fifteen
years of engaging these issues on the single
regions where I have misstated
one of my true enemies position, however, slightly right just
and a slightly off sense of what this person had been arguing for or believed. I have pub
Lee apologized immediately right and yet
people never did well it's worse than that they have never. In many cases they have never attacked me
review that I actually hold. I mean they have one hundred percent record of
lying about what my view is actually are, and this is so it's asymmetric warfare. You have people who basically have no secure
concerns right, because they're not worried about atheists and reform,
who's number formers lining up to kill them right and have no scruples going after.
For people who have exquisite security, concerns and or play
by really the most scrupulous rules of intellectual discourse is just completely asymmetric, and it's in this
sign of a change, and I wanted to, I know, we're coming up against a hard stop for you Douglas you're, going to give a speech
somewhere in London. You are. You are the hardest working heretic in
ok, the UK at the moment, but I want to
I just want to ask you about this encounter between Pierce, Morgan and Tommy, Robinson, which you must have seen which well first, let me ask you: is there any
daylight between you and and Robinson on these issues, because I he's been so well slimed by his opponents
that eight. I don't know what to think about him. I've never met him or or dealt directly with him, but he's you know. He comes to me just days didn't in a program Phil, for
describe what you think of him, but I I want to buy one, and then I want to say something about Morgan's performance there, because it it struck me as one of the most shameful examples of
sanctimonious bullying. I've ever witnessed
uh? I haven't actually seen it. I've seen a clip of it. I was in the US when it happened.
The gosh I mean you.
Very tricky question in many ways, because whenever I say anything about Tommy Robinson are I have the thing that you have with you know other issues and
Everyone just wants to leap in, and I am like one of the easiest things in Europe is to. Is it
Is what I describe in my book is as going off after secondary issues so,
for instance, the English Defense League.
In Germany and so on, and just totally crackdown on and vilifying, basically treat them with a different level of observation and honesty than you do other groups so, for instance, uh. The Manchester bomber, a Grande concert uh, seem to have gone to a mosque locally which had all sorts of things being preached at it. But basically people didn't want to know about that stuff. It
It is we just don't want to because we still, as we said before, society very badly set out for this argument, whereas we really good on the note, not system, I mean yeah kind of we were quite good seventy years ago in Britain, I'm not since I've been in a sort of cult three now across the board. Thank goodness. You know we're pretty good, I'm not seeing. The problem is that there are some people who, for my mind for short term political gain as well as some people from long time. Political gain want to extend the borders of the
definition to encompass a pretty much everybody who doesn't agree with them and if I can say is I cite the one point in the book, a summit in Germany. I spoke with about this to
You just wouldn't believe that basically, somebody without a phd could have any say in anything to do with immigration, always long without being a racist, and I e interviews, Tommy Robinson when he left the english defense. They can. I followed the activities with great interest, I'm while he was running at and the they're also think I don't believe in ST pride as I don't like street movements. I think, among other things, it's because you don't
know who you're going to attract. You can attract very bad elements, particularly in Europe, and basically you hold the count for the whole thing. You you if it goes wrong and somebody
send Donna building your you screw everything and
I think it's a very a wise thing to do, but I also recognize that there are people who have great concerns about that society and do not you know. I have the access to the media, for instance, and I have that I have with the voice that I have and and so on, and I I think you people should be very careful between before you know scorning anybody who doesn't have the privileges, basically not to get old kind of left wing, Wangari West Coast University on you, but I mean that was that there was this
confrontation with his old. We totally played into this thing, because you know we just we've never had, as far as I can remember an imam or something invited on to a mainstream program from a mosque that a bomber is gone too and have the the treatment all of them. The kids Morgan gave to Tommy Robinson
and I don't know everything he's ever seven his life. But I've read his memoir and is very you know, Swayze of story about his own persecution at the hands of of the state, which I think was clearly a case of. Let's go,
to this person and shot him down in a way that they have really not done with numerous actual islamic extremists, and so there is a disparity ended on the furnace, which is which is on just. I think seventy justifies the the sense of injustice, but the top
Robinson and many others around him feel and uh this. This Pierce Morgan
so far as I could see was Pierce Morgan
I mean he's not a very interesting thinker? He is positioning sort of figure and but since his his friend Donald Trump came to, presidency has used
and he just sort of say some things about the Islam and the terrorism stuff, which is sort of you know further out the need of done before and I'm not my suspicion is. He felt that he got a little bit ahead of the debate and then off to the attack. The the the said that this film is the.
Arcattack chose to sort of regain some ground by just screaming at
Lee Robinson on man for all life tv. I think that's what happened, but they say I mean you've seen it all. I have yeah well, people should should watch it because it it's one of those moments where the hypocrisy
and the unwillingness to speak seriously about a very serious issue just crossed
every conceivable line. For me I mean it just seems like it should be. One
career ending moments? I mean we go back to.
Point, if I may make you who you, which is that, as I understand it from the from the base of the the the the thing I a soul, one thing was that Tommy Robinson was trying to put
By the way I mean we don't really again, I mean there's a trial, it's going to happen of this guy in Finsbury Park. We don't know exactly what he was trying to do.
Or what he was motivated by or I mean I think we can take a guess. But I mean we don't know what the wider circle was wasn't. So I think Tommy Robinson tried to make the point that I mean if it was me so I went back up. I don't think I would have made the point on that particular day, but uh. What Tony Robinson seem to be doing was just saying: look this mask. That was certainly for a period of time, a mage,
recruitment center for extremists and terrorists an which was then in the early 2000s at one point, cleaned up and handed
over by the way to the Muslim Brotherhood, uh and uh,
shooting Humm as senior Hamas figure would not be my I mean you look, we should be able to simple Tennessee say, don't ever carry out acts of violence on members of the public,
and don't kill people Mirai mow them down when they just innocently leaving mosque and also they say it's not great. The the the the the leadership of an instant she said might have connections to a terrorist group like come as, and it's sort of a demonstration of the port city still of the argument, I'm as I say to that.
To some extent, this is a timing thing. I don't think that's the argument to have in the house
isn't days immediately after people are mourning, somebody who's being killed, murdered and others have been injured. But you could. You could have that conversation at some point if there weren't so
people just determined to use all of these things to avoid such discussion and it's very disconcerting that were still still there. You know the part of the video I saw was it was just Morgan.
During Robertson to have some respect about over the Koran and any comparison to sign
ology, was just was blasphemous
Basically, he was it he's in favor of blasphemy. Laws essentially was the the implication of of yes. This is all I can say says I mean this goes back to the one of the cool themes of my book, which is the v. The fact is is that if we lived in a society which
had the largest growing population in our society was scientologists if the
largest growing religion in your society with Scientology you might, you might find it harder than you do to pick apart Scientology
and we know I get. I mention in my book that in the nineteen thirties, hello, Bella Crota Book called the great heresies which included a chapter on what he called Mohammed, an ism, which is something which would put
the writings of you know. Anyone who's, the God is, is not a FEB today to shame. You know it really looks and makes makes the PAMELA Geller Look. Look like you know, kind of the soft stuff. Now, why did Hilaire Belloc
not have to go into hiding in the nineteen thirties in England, after writing, the great heresies
because there was no meaningful muslim population in Britain in those days. Why did Salman Rushdie have to
the hiding in nineteen, eighty, nine, after satanic verses, which again
way way less than what he about it does, because by then
there is a large muslim community who might carry out the orders of the Ayatollah and so
and so on, and by the time you get to where we are now just because of numbers as well. As you know, all the devotion and devotion isn't so it really just because a number
If your peers Morgan, I mean it becomes plausible that you become like enormously defensive of the Koran and that's not
just a result of Pierce Morgan's, odd positioning. It's also weirdly enough, a semi, rational calculation or active calculation in a culture which, as I describe in some
most of this detail in my book is simply going that way, and you know it it's it's about the facts on the ground.
And that by the way is that final point that is it
when we and I do quite a lot of it, lambasts and joke about and ridicule politicians, for you know not being stronger on some of this stuff
now I mean you know after three islamist attacks and then one attack on a mosque. You know you think, maybe
Maybe they do know that they're dealing with an even more combustible thing than we think they are maybe yeah. Well, that's that is more dispiriting stuff. It's
it's it's it's hard to hard note to end on with you Douglas, but I'm mindful of your,
schedule and I'm I sort of I sort of as an individual. I tried
I think of myself as a rather you know jolly person. My friends don't complain about me much, but yet I'm afraid that
we are all now living through, are not the time to talk
about being an innate optimist where Nate Pessimist, you know, the facts that are emerging in Europe are very, very pessimism causing and there's very little. One could do about
but other than to remember what I meant my favorite quotes from Mencken, who said once you know that that human?
This is very significantly made to the extent that one can believe in it, and I guess it's very significantly made by jolly fellows heaving dead cats into sanctuaries and going voice doing down the highways of the world, and
anyhow is uh. I always tilt my hat to you as a as a jolly Cattivo into sanctuaries, yeah yeah, it's all in a day's work. Well, listen Douglas!.
As always, a great pleasure to speak with you, and we have to do it again, because there are many topics. We have not touched.
Well, could we agreed to come back and do it soon, yeah, no yeah, so this this podcast is always open to you. So you should just know that when you have
an hour's worth of noise or more that you want to make.
Send me an email and I'll. Have you back on? It is a deal, listen, keep it up Douglas
because they let the bugs get to you. If you find the
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Transcript generated on 2019-10-31.