I'm Rich Lowry, editor of national view and host for podcast called funnily enough. The editors we on the editors I discuss with my colleagues the latest news and national controversies. We cut through the cat get beyond the lies and spin and provide insight, and Facts you're, not gonna, get anywhere else, while having a good time doing it. In this era of folly, myth and hysteria. You owe it yourself to check out the editor you can find it on. Google play stature tuna in Itunes. We hope to see you soon. Welcome to the Mccarthy report. I guess we're Irish Lowry discuss with Andy Mccarthy the latest on the mullah probe and other legal and national security issues using this week, who is John Durham, the

It's done the dossier and co me verses, Brennan, you're, listening to enact reopen, cast every listening and actually duck homeward have you got to be easier for you for better for us. If he makes part of your feet, a Google placed at your tune in or I tunes and please give an Mccarthy's podcast all the fulsome praise they deserve. And five Dar I tunes review and now without first do. I welcome here in the podcasting studio of an hour world headquarters, no Skype necessary none other than any Mccarthy morning. Rich gone, Andy, let's go in great bright and early might our first pre not am recording yeah well, what's say its earlier on. We will decide on bright, NASA, So we- and I can actually use that term. Literally, we national these editors under the influence of another of an Anti Mccarthy editor.

as two years ago that we did need a special council to investigate these sources of the investigation, but an outsider. With credibility and investigative chap, should be brought in to look at it and that's what happened? What what's up yeah? It's finally happened. I think we hoped it had happened with this fella John Uber them U S attorney of Utah, but it looks like the more we find out about his mandate, the more a limited it seems to have been, whereas attorney general bar, unlike attorney general sessions, seems to be very focused on, and I think for very good reasons that have to do with the institution more than the investigation he's very focused on what went wrong with the origination of the Trump rush investigation, and I think we can say rich at this point that something went wrong.

because we had a two year, investigation and mauler when he gets the end of the rainbow, determine that there was no? collusion? And when you read his report, it really doesn't look like. There was much evidence of collusion and, as we discussed, he had to have known pretty shortly after he took over the investigation that there was no real criminal case along those lines. So I think it's a valid question to ask, especially since we clearly disregarded the norm that we have in this country against of political or potential political use of e of the spying powers. I want to say so,

powers, but I guess surveillance powers of the of the government. It really is important that we get to the bottom. What happened here? So why is Addio J prosecutor better than a special council? Well with the problem of the special council is, as we discussed any number of times, is that you really? You have to have two things in order to justify a special council, you have to have a factual predicate for a criminal investigation, and you have to have a conflict of interest that makes it impossible for the Justice Department to investigate the case in the normal course. I think having a factual, Predicate requirement is an inappropriate requirement if you're talking about the government doing an internal investigation of its own potential wrong doing because a lot of the things that it better, be wrong in the way of abuses of power are not necessarily violations of the criminal code and

So the government has a responsibility to police itself and when something goes wrong, it shouldn't wait. Fur coat whereas in the media and the public, to return to rail and some action is taken me. They really. The reason we have things like inspectors. General is because we recognise that it's important that these guys clean up their house internally. So I think up a crime products would not be a good idea and the other thing is obviously a conflict of interest, you want them to be able to police themselves. There's no reason that net needs to be done is a lot of talent in the Justice Department, particularly outside of Washington, I'm not saying inside Washington is a lack of talent, but when you're talking about situation, where its decision making it headquarters? That has to be evaluated. It's good to be will in very good experience, scrupulous investigators from the outside

know what they're doing who know where all the levers are in the Justice Department. So it's not like somebody who s to be brought in from the inside who s to recreate the wheel and making busy and find out what happened so on the criminal predicate, as one asked us again talked about a four. But its comes up so often when talking to right wing friends that people get to go to jail for for what they did or should should go to jail and crimes committed. Now is the time to expose them. Yet I really think rich that what we ought to do is not get the court ahead LE horse. The most important thing here, regardless of whether anybody coming the crime is to find out what happened and if things went wrong, why they went wrong. I have a theory that we ve talked about about why it went wrong. I think it went wrong because headquarters took ownership of the investigation, with no one there to play the headquarters role of oversight. That's, why

In theory, we may find out that there are other things, but I think, because you may not find that it was crimes that were at the bottom of this. If you make indictments the objective or the price tag forgetting to the bottom of what Then it's going to be very hard to get to the bottom of what happened. People run a lawyer up, it will get harder to get information and I think to me the the threat that this poses one when these powers get abused. It is much more it's a much more profound issue, then just what happened in this battle.

investigation as important as this investigation is. These are the powers that we rely on to protect the United States from from foreign threats. So if there are problems with them, we have to fix that, because if Congress and the public get to the get convinced that we won't fix it, they will cut back on the powers and the country will be less safe. So I think the most important thing here has to be a complete accounting of what happened and then, if you get to the complete

counting, and it turns out the people committed crimes. You can deal with that at the at the appropriate time, and then it may very well be rich that people who have misled investigators- and I have done things that are prosecutable, but I just think, let's find out what happened first and that's why? I don't think that you need to to call this. I mean you can call it a criminal investigation if you want it's gonna be run by a prosecutor, but this is really I hope and internal thoroughgoing investigation and you let the chips full where they may. If it turns out, people did prosecutable things than fine deal with it and what do we about John Durham, the guy, has been given this task here thirty, seven year, prosecutor very accomplished worked under administrations of both parties and importantly, has played this role in administrations of both parties. He was brought in by.

attorney General Reno, to conduct a special council investigation back in the late nineties. He was brought in by the judge me hazy when he was attorney general to investigate the CIA interrogators, and then he did. enough job on that widely recognised I everybody in the Justice Department that, when Erica older wanted to as agents of the Obama administration wanted to reopen investigation and expand the the inquiry into the the CIA Interrogations Programme, he kept doorman to finish the investigation and ultimately was convinced by Durham that we had found out what happened, but that no further indictment appropriate. So let us pause and Annie. I know you ve been really eager for new and our plus add copies of this? This is your weak. I got right new. I D got new car before you, ok, so I out

I repeat what I say, which is enterprises are digital scripture service can be accessed all over content, get Billy comment on the website, get much fewer adds plus sweet were on veiling anew offer out there, which is a special gift offer for the recent I do it in your life. It's a way to keep them informed and in no and very wise by reading all than ours writers, including none other than any Mccarthy, so he can give the guy you have in your life and an hour plus subscription for sixty percent off until the end of May, let that sank in sixty percent. I actually have graduates who I have given an already descriptions do so this is this: is it like early Christmas, rich? It yeah. really say: can visit national you decamp, slash, plus and enter the code, my grad that's the code I grab at check out to receive sixty percent of all get subscriptions and, as I say

get access to all content you get invited. Two spade cause an event We have a call coming up in a couple weeks you here with the great congressmen Dan Crenshaw. I think everyone can be very excited to be paid. of so let your recent graduate be part of that too, by signing them up for an hour, plus it sixty percent and sixty percent. I keep telling my recent graduates than the euro expecting they're. Gonna. Tell me how great my last column was half an hour I ever hear from them is Kevin Williamson, his grey here right so dossier. This is, I know the steps important, but that this is one of those topics. It's there really waiting for me. I tried to cover read through cover Hubert's thread on these latest developments, couldn't get all the way through. But you Andy it's your job, be obsessive about this and be able to accept. In a way that we all understand. So, let's do

I've and we have this. How do we find out about this? We have a state department view of steel by someone in catholic Cadillac. Yet this it's very starving how we found out about this rich, because Congress was asking for this kind of stuff for a long time, and it looks to me like between the inspector General Investigation and the fact that you know we just learned about John Dirhams investigation this week, but evidently he's been on the job. For a while, so between those two threads coming together, suddenly things are starting to drop out of the sky, and one of the things is that steel was interviewed by this justice too. I'm sorry State Department, official, about a week, to ten days before the first five a warrant was issued in

toper of twenty sixteen and what's disturbing about this- is what well to another. There's a number things disturbing about it. For one thing, the Justice Department in the fire of warrant tells the core. that this information has not been shared with anyone other than the FBI and the Justice Department and the people that steel was working for which would have been fusion GPS, the one Simpson outfit. Obviously he spoke to this day Department and the Justice Courtney F B. I knew that so the question becomes. It is this just an innocent, stake, or did they intentionally omitted, and I was inclined when I first heard this figure will probably something that foot slipped through the cracks, except when you, Look at the interview they have a motive not to have reveal it what happened in the interview was apparently steel told her a number of important things for

one thing, he said that he was obsessed that didn't this information that he had about Trump get out before election day, which underscores whose his political motive that was, I think, short sold in the EU in the actual warrant application. He also tells them that one, the one, the things that he's doing at the moment is managing our relations with the end, why tee and the W P, which are which seem clearly to be reference, to the New York Times and the Washington post. This is of importance because steel and fusion had a campaign in September of twenty. Sixteen that's a month before. the final Warren, where they were trying to push their information out to various media outlets, including the ties in Washington, Post and my gives a cough at

who knows who actually did write a fairly significant NEWS report about all this on around September, twenty third, so when the Pfizer applicants she is made by the Justice Department What they say in there is that they do not believe that steel is the direct source for the press report, including physical, reports. Now we see that before they went to the files accord, You have still himself telling the State Department these managing relationships with media outlets interesting thing here, rich, while there is still more to be said about this, but let me stay with this point. So so we finish it.

I've always thought it was very interesting that the FBI and the Justice Department have never accused steel of lying about his press contacts. You may recall that some months back, there was a referral of steel for potential prosecution to the Justice Department by senators grassland Gram on the theory that he must have lied to the FBI about is press contacts now when the FBI makes a disclosure to the court in the second FISA application. So now this is a this would have been January, two thousand and seventeen. They tell the court that Steele is out of the investigation because he has violated the contacts policy which, by the way they knew no later than about eight days after they filed the first application so queer

why they didn't go right back to the five accord at that point and make this disclosure, but but putting that aside, I've always those very interesting. They carefully say he violated the press contacts rule, but they dont say he lied to about it, which is what grassland Graham we're home in on an believe now we ve heard also by the way that that investigation has been closed, the Vienna, the referral that the senators made that was quietly several weeks back closed. and I think the reason that they ve never accused him of lying is because he didn't lie. I think they knew it. either new outright that he was that he had these contacts with the press. I mean, after always, workin for fusion GPS, which is trying to get Hillary Clinton elected. That was their job. They were trying to get that information out

The information that is a cough had so obviously came from steel that they should have known that he was at least likely to be the source of not certainly the source, and, I think, playing games with the court like saying he wasn't directly the source and not doing an investigation about whether yet We was the sources inexplicable, but I dont think he ever lied to them. I don't think they ever pushed him on or you talking to the press about what you're talking to us about, because I think they knew he was doing it. So just really quickly. Just make sure I'm understanding that at that I have another another urgent question. So that the import of this would be another side. The FBI high in the bottom right under our fine words- and we know about it, because she took notes of this sort and the notes were: are they released just been wrought, reported on that they have just been reported on, but the the interesting route that the notes took was after she took them.

Forwarded them to the FBI where they went to the unit that struck Peter struck, ran it struck unit that cranking out thee. wiser application. So there is every reason to think that the FBI and the Justice Department had access to this and from sure when they filed the fires of application, or certainly they had access to it before the court issued the warrant which would which we think was October, twenty first okay. So why wisely talking to the State Department clear did like a foreign related thing. Maybe well, you know, steals relationship with the state Department is with one the interesting things that Durham will need to look into a part of the he's in that they found steel to be so credible is that he had a source

yet. He had a relationship with the state Department, just like he had a relationship with the FBI just had like he had a relationship with Bruce or at the Justice Department. He had a relationship with this this long time. Carry aid. Is it wiener Weiner? I always forget how he prevented stubby. Why any are, but anyhow, he was giving reports to this guy, probably a hundred of them, as far as I understand it over the years that he was at the State Department under Carry, and he also delivered to them his while he gave them a summary of what he had learned in his research about Trump, which wine or I think roadie synopsis of that was passed along internally at the state department. So there was this: does this channel of communication to the state Department as well and she this?

department, official New right away, that the most learned allegation was bs, the most Lord delegation, but what will will come to that? Here's what she knew and this is very important, rich because the FBI essentially tells the five accord, and we talked about this many times that they that the report or that the allegations that their presenting a credible because they say steel, is credible and we ve talked about what the flaw in that theory is that steel is not actually the source of the things. The court is being asked to rely on he's kind of one who who assembled the information in pervaded based on his sources were these russian sources, but one of the things that steel tell the State Department official, when they are having their interview. Is that part of the way the Trump Russia conspiracy works? Is too

and emigre a Russian emigrate community in South Florida and for purposes of chance owing to them money and channeling back information there, making use of the state departments russian Consulate in and not the state department. Russia's consulate in Miami and this State Department official doing research that much taken or at least thirty seconds instantly finds out that there is no consulate in Miami, so that information she realizes that that he's just flat wrong about that and includes in her notes that she sends long to the FBI that you know just he's gotta be wrong on this. There is no consulate the FBI, when they waited there

hostile environment and its said there was correct, and that was part of the theory. Yes, I thought so the be rich. So anyway, the Miami kind of Russian Miami ACT like that assignment yeah, a russian Right Russian offended. Evidently there may be one in Tampa, but there's none in does not in my army. So this is a pretty critical mistake. If it's a mistake, it certainly wrong. So she passes that, along to the bureau,. And the bureau and the Justice Department. When they go to the fire a court. They represent the court that they have no reason to think that there is any derogatory information about steel and that, even though he may have political motivation he's been found to be reliable in the past. I think this goes too.

How shoddy a product this was, I mean basically she did. She was able to figure out and nothing flat that that this was wrong and the reason it Part of the reason that so important riches, the the young, the FBI onto policies that were put in place by director Robert Mauler, in two thousand one follows what are known as the woods procedures, which is us. To make a long story short as a set of procedure, Lenny that any Greece under the F gases would parsimonious ready to listen, but that the purpose of them is to make sure that when they go to the fire, a court, every allegation that they make to the five accord has been corroborated, so it it's in there practised at that they're not supposed to bring anything, that's on verified and in fact, the application that they submit to devise a court is called verified application it in big capital block printed letters at the top of them

of the form. So he hears the other thing wretch than this is our rub or friend, undercover Huber from mom from Twitter who seized on this, and I oppose. What was really something yesterday, and that would have been no Thursday. The source. That's he'll attributes the Miami Consulate story to its source ii. In the on verified, RCA the unidentified sources of the hearsay information. Now we don't know exactly who sources there are theories about who it might be I don't want to. I don't wanna out somebody who may not be, but for now what suffice it to say that if you, a prosecutor, an agent who was preparing an affidavit and you find out that one of your sources has made a pretty galactic mistake. One other thing

one. The things you would do is go through all the other allegations that that particular source is responsible for that sources, possible for two other major allegations. One is the famous p tape and apparently steel told the State Department official that, yes, the p, tape story sounds like a sensational ridiculous story, but he only believes it because he got it from source ie. So he's critically, relying on them the the information with the credibility of this particular source. The other big allegation that comes from saucy is the claim Russia and Trump, or in a well developed conspiracy of operation, undermine the election, which has a poor man, afforded the point man for tromp and has quarter page as Thee emissary, which is a fairly important, healthy, kicks area

so those are all source to the same, though both role traced to the same source II, that steel is using in the dossier and Then what we know about the dossier to this point is steel himself verifying it quota. Unquote, you know, uses preposterous internet sources to try to corroborate it himself. And secondly, it doesn't look like anybody at the government did anything to corroborated and again, we need to point out that they make this visa application in October of twenty. Sixteen director call me at the behest he says, of the other intelligence, gives briefs President Elect Trump on it. In January, they go back to the fire in January April, in June, with the same information and yet call me testifies in March and in June of twenty seventeen

that its salacious and unverified- and you know, look common sense. with salacious and unverified march. It had to I've been when they first brought it to the Pfizer right. You know what it feels like to me. It's just a classic case. You see it journalism all the time of two good to check and you become vested in a theory right away off the bat. And then you just ignore all the holes you ignore all the employees abilities cause you just convinced reason in this case. Maybe it's bias, maybe they're so alarm made some just being ammo. Whatever it is, but when, in the clear light of day, look back how path? we could have. I miss that are not thought through. The consequence of disguising is consulate mighty when there's not When you're in a moment- and you believe you you make mistakes,

That's true, although I have to say you never, at least in my experience, always conscious of how explosive the allegations you're making be when they become public. I remember when we were, when we were writing the young, some of the pleadings in the blind a case, including the indictment we would come across. Things like at one point are conspirators we're talking about potentially martyring the Clinton's as they came off a plane. and you know the idea was the plane was gonna come in at a certain point. They talked about what the secure pretty was around that point and I remember thinking. This is such an explosive thing if we go public, whether because it with one these things that hadn't been

You know everybody was focused on the bridges in the tunnels and all that stuff. This. This had not been out there at which I had. I have read that transcript. You know twenty times before I went with that, because I always thought you know if somebody thinks I pulled this out of the sky and it didn't come out of somebody's mouth and it's you know, then it's my ass. It's going to dry frying, so it seems to me we talked about this before, but I think that the sloppiness that crept into this- explained by the fact that everybody was absolutely positive. That MRS Clinton was going women the election in this. This was never going to see the light of day and just to have a sort of a bell along with the suspenders, It was all done by can or intelligence, which means it was classified. It was- and to be under the cone, and no one would ever hear about it, and I think that makes you sloppy. I think what makes you sloppy on the intelligent side that

doesn't happen is often on the criminal side is the fact that you you go on long assuming no one, he's going to check your work and if you get it passed, the court never going to be looked into not going into a court ramoth ad absurdum, my cedar, ok, so speaking of of people getting fried in and rushed back. We have this co me verses, Brennan, bat over who, legibly wanted to get dossier material and the intelligence assessment of the Russian interfere it's a toy, sixteen election. What's this about, but that's very good right! Thank you. I thought you didn't think I could quite make it. I thought a doubt your I I know I saw the doubt your bath. That's that's the advantage to being the magic Skype. Well, this is

interesting, because the young, the dossier material, did not make it into the intelligence assessment and again just to just remind people. The intelligence assessment is the document that was pretty this by the combination of the CIA, the FBI, the an essay and the office of the National intelligence director. It was something that that Obama put the note Curiously, political Brennan, who CIA director in charge of right after Hillary Clinton, lost the election and, as I have always argued about this This kind of a study, this kind of an assessment, if you familiar at all, with the way the government works. This is the kind of thing that would take a year and a half to do, and it would be vetted

eight ways to Sunday before it finally saw the light of day. What happened here instead is Obama directed Brennan to pull this thing together, it was on in a matter of days, and it was done, I think precisely, to marry it up with Obama's sanctions that he imposed on Russia the end of December of twenty. Sixteen. This thing was was to be rolled out right on top of that, and it was done in order to create the narrative that this thing was the crime of the century This thing being Russia's interview, since in the election, which bomb and knew about in real time and didn't think it was a big deal. Nobody thought this was a big deal until MRS Clinton lost the election and then They pushed out this product. They wanted it out by early January. Why? Because press

Obama was still going to be president in early JANET. are you so they would be able to to control how was pushed out to the public and the purpose of the document, which was, as we understand it. push harder by Brennan than anybody else. Knee intelligence community was to say not just that She had interfered with the election, but that he had done so with the specific intention of making Donald Trump President, so the old administration knew exactly what they were doing. They know exactly what they were saddling Trump with by pushing this thing out. So now we have this dispute, that's broken out into public between the call me camp and the Brennan Camp, about the use of the dossier in the assessment or than wealth I want to say the non use, its not quite the non use of rich because very

kissing Lee they go up to it. They go up to brief, go up to Trump Tower, to brief trump on January Sixth, two thousand and seventeen about the the assessment and that's the episode where Comey gives at an electron, a briefing on a sliver of the dossier, just the p tape, nothing else. He doesn't say, oh by the way, Mr President were were also were you know in the fire court, arguing to the federal judges that your campaign was in. Security with Russia on divine the election that part of it apparently gets left out. It's just a salacious port that he's briefed on but Now there is an argument over whether there was an effort to get this dossier into the intelligence assessment and according to the reporting, that's mainly been done by Fox NEWS, there's an email chain from December of twenty sixteen

which call me as grousing that Brennan is trying to force the dossier into the Spain and Brennan's Camp fire back through an unidentified former intelligence official. I couldn't imagine who that might be, who says now that it call me who was trying to push the assess the dust the aid into the assessment and Brennan clapper, heroically staved him off, because the dossier, as we know, was, fleetly uncorroborated and we only wanted on a. We only wanted fully verified corroborated information in our assessment. Now trade Gouty, whose seen some of this paper trail, thinks that call Why has the better of the argument here? I suspect Gouty is right and it seems to me there

or a holes in the Brennan Clapper story. One is we have good reason to think in fact, probably to know that brow, and was pushing the dossier on Harry Reed and other Democrats in Congress as early as September of twenty sixteen in September, twenty sixteen Brennan Briefs Thea the gang of eight, including reed. He briefs them separately, so we don't know if they ve. All if they all got the same briefing but after red hears from run, and he fires off a letter. To call me saying: why aren't you in to getting trumps contacts with Russia and one of the things that he emphasized in the letter is the names included in this. But Carter pages trip to to Russia in July were page in the dossier is alleged to have met with these too high

thanks russian regime officials. Red this is that in the letter to call me after being brief by Brennan, so there is reason to think that Brennan was pushing this thing and the other thing that Brennan says or that is said by the former intelligence official on behalf of Brennan. Is that call me was pushing for this clapper and Brennan kept we know that clapper has admitted to talking to Jake or of CNN in early June, in early January of twenty seventeen before the dossier became public, so the thought they were you know they were treating the dossier like this is it this is a completely

corroborated peace, a trash that we don't want to associate ourselves with his it, it strange credibility to tune to think that that's the case, I think that's amazing. You think when this whole thing started and some trap that people, including very soon you were making big deal the dossier there's so much. I Roy and this crazy. This account or conspiracy theory, and now you have top people who are involved in it who are rose to the others, hide having a fight basically caused by the fact that they took now consider the dossier you're radioactive and you not rich. The interesting thing is: nobody can win this fight right, because, if commies right, I suspect he is then then query why did the F B, I used the dossier in the fire, a court, a couple, a moray for. I state or be higher right, wouldn't it, and if I advocated than just an assessment, you have to swear to a five legation and you have a com.

we have a continuing relationship with the court. Every time the country, need something in the way of national security that they need the court to sign off on. They can afford to have their their credible blown to smithereens. That's why I think this whole thing is so critically important, but the other thing is, you know call me is right on this. He still agree to brief tromp on the dossier and it was very incomplete brick briefing. So you have to ask you Why is everybody run for the hills away from this thing? Why are they running from the hills away from it, particularly when we're three or four weeks away from Horowitz is big rat hoard on it so we have to get you out of here in two minutes, but says so next week or two, what what we look for movement on Mahler, testifying, thee, the idea or poor. Could I just drop promote any time when what is seen seized as as the next big big elements, the story? What I think will

some with dorms report richer or the work the dorm is doing. You won't hear about it until it and toys gravity to to launch uber is apparent. We are looking at the young Clinton foundation. and uranium one? That was what he focuses, investigative efforts on and he's been waiting, apparently for Horowitz, so nothing His track is gonna happen until we hear from Horowitz. I would caution people don't get your hopes up on the current. Foundation- and you know those of you who want pillory, walked out in handcuffs right. After call me in an Brenner walked out that yeah bars, verse bars personal. I now bar first the fact that we all know Pelosi didn't bring her to large, inherently already I. But I think that dumb what I'm focused on, which you it's funny to say what you're focused on here, because every week were surprised every week. Something falls eyeless guy that we didn't anticipate. But what

I think this German, the water now with this dossier and probably gets worse. I think it starts to It really starts to unravel. I mean it just seems to me to be its A rational for call me and Brennan and clapper to be in this. This public dispute over something that didn't happen right right and that cannot be that this thing is now become so radioactive that that people were afraid to be assessed. She added with it and, I think, are hit our or experience with Washington scandals, as once it achieves that level. Then it can unravel pretty quick aright saw the time we have been listening to a national park gases podcast and produced by the incomparable, sir I'll except one for listening and thank you, Annie, Mccarthy. Thanks rich,