Breaking news. Ukraine says russia's new offensive in the east is now under way, but the pentagon questions if russia is ready, saying its military still suffers, quote chronic difficulties. Plus China draws closer to russia as the world tries to isolate vladimir Putin. China, foreign ministries, says it will increase coordination with moscow. How about that and the other big story this morning, the tea I say No longer enforcing the mask mandate on planes and other public transit after a ruling from a federal,

judge good morning and welcome to morning Joe it's tuesday april nineteenth along with willie Joe and may we have those two way too early and might have spare cheap at politico Jonathan, the mayor and former nato Supreme alive, commander retired for start navy, admiral james to Rita's he's cheap international security and diplomacy analysed fur, NBC news and MSNBC. So what do you think about the mess grande by the judge? I mean, I just think that planes and trains or the one place for its worth using them. And what I think is different light and you should use them yet having to ask me a question, you never tire here, I'm being now not what you think that that is the one area where very not night, clubs, not going where a mask on a plane. I went for a fee. We thank you it was you that you're different, I mean that's a different question. I budgets souls

There are two things here, william first of all, there's the judge's ruling, which is like one of these judges' rulings, where a federal judge in texas will rule that the democratic party is illegal and then, of course, it'll go up to the circuit. I think it's, the fifth circuit that will go to the supreme court to overturn. I don't think this ruling makes a lot of legal sense because of the butterflies agency, does have the ability to do this during a pandemic gets out. I just think at this point. the bite. Administration may say enough. This is so unpopular and you know I'm. This is not a question of whether I'm going to wear mask on a plane or not I will when I'm getting on the plane. I will when everybody's congregated around I will would people are coughing, but I think at this: again, we had Scott Gaza last week telling talking about the tall wall of immunity that we built up. The two accedes. I think this point it should be up to get to

It's in my family. They will be wearing masks on playing just out of an abundance of caution. and you still have that personal choices, a federal judge and floor was took up the case of one group in idaho, actually into plaintiffs, plaintiffs and basically saying look. We're gonna apply this to the whole country word at not having an open. This opted to hear, hear arguments because the cdc overstepped its bounds bounds. Now you can debate whether or not or judge should have made a decision were whether she has the the jurisdiction to do that, but where, happened is immediately airlines all revoked their morale mandate as an actor. I like now to my plans, take em off right now. Airlines have been calling for this for a long time and the extended mass mandate actual was only going to be in fact for about ten more days anyway, till may third, so that in that may have been revoked it that when anyway, so to your point, Maybe the Biden administration will look back on this insane. We could have gone ahead of it and we could have been the ones to have said this days here. It's time to take off the mass by the way, low

well jurisdictions, new york, city, subway system, because the department of health and the state of new york has a rule. They can still have their mass monday again, it's up to people it's up to whatever they want to do. You've got to feel like John. Can I be one of the first mistakes of the binding ministration made? last year there was a win win is he was over fifty percent in ours? having his mission accomplished moment for dealt they had so they're moving with an abundance of caution. I think that's the conservative, with a small thing with small say: The conservatives do action what they do that at the same time, now that a federal judge has made this decision. They have to decide whether they want to appeal it and not if they appeal it their prey hopefully going nowhere, because I think the eleventh circuit or the supreme court will say. Yes, is within this, Well the jurisdiction, but again poetic

I just don't know if they want to do that. What are you now? Yes, certainly you're, right that last July, when the president said, the nation was declared its independence from the virus and then, of course, delta immerse a few weeks later. That is shaped a lot of their response ever since, and they have err on the side of caution we heard for. Why does for sectors? Sock yesterday expressed disappointment in this ruling, saying that a part of justice would potentially look and do a lawsuit, but they made no couldn't do so just yet in the clock is ticking as as well just noted. This was gonna run out in ten days or so anyway, they know it's unpopular. There are strictly some democrats around the white house who wish they had done. Added. This had been the ones say: hey we're, dropping math. This can be a celebratory moment, but there is some concern that we at this at this particular juncture that covert cases are starting to rise again. Certainly, this is not at least not yet this nowhere near a surge like we saw, though macron or delta. We want to make that clear, but cases are trending in the wrong direction. There is a sense that officials that I've talked to that they wish this had been able to be in place for a few more weeks, but they might just let

yeah yeah it is. It is still crazy how ideologically chained people or did their positions? You know, what's so funny for a year if I get hammered by trump lists for say: well, you bet when wearing them or you get vaccines, it's called science, and now I people on the far left on my twitter feed gold. Why would that happen? Do you? Where did you go science. It's it's just crazy. a pandemic has somehow been politicize from the very beginning, yeah and I'm sympathetic unsympathetic. We are the people who have concerns and they can still wear a mask when they, when they get on the plane that we all know, people we're gonna, keep wearing their mass and, of course, that's their right. The questions should be, tyres society be mandated to wear them, and at this point the judge says now again that such choices by land will be wearing the way tat people that yell at other evil for wearing wearing mass.

please just shut up It just not a nice way to start a start. Nobody knows nobody knows what somebody else's going through. What underlying symptom somebody else. As nobody knows, if they're a diabetic, nobody knows kind, they they have yeah. Exactly wait so well, and if you think we are having a debate, you ought to be watching what's happening in shanghai, china right now where the entire city has been in lockdown for now approaching months, and the first time in China who are starting to see real unrest developed joe, you know, admiral, I'm so glad you I thought that we were gonna get you now. Can you don't follow me here? I grew up It seem pretty obvious the difference between western democracies and totalitarian systems, and if it was it obvious enough in that split, we east and west berlin nor

in south korea, it became evident after the soviet union collapsed and so I'm having the red these articles over the past three or four years, the end of western democracy, totalitarianism authoritarianism is lulu, he owes a future of governance. This is what we heard about communism. Communism, never works till tat. What so? Let's talk about? Let's talk about china, You have the totalitarian system and look help riddle china lux we're. Looking, let's talk about putin autocrat, how riddle does his country look and every night I'm still reading these stories even ukraine about the collapse of the western democracies, a model as what do you know my great grade teacher told me that the united states was going the way, the roman empire. How long can people get?

it's freedom, works autocracy fails full Stop yeah I'll, give two additional points to make? One is human nature at the end of it. If people are poor abbas, people want voice and that what you're saying riddle. Cracking sounds coming out of some of these authoritarian and thence I can joe the throne history the long throw of history is on democracy? Go a hundred years ago there were maybe fifteen democracies in the world today. Oh you score. An indifferent waves were probably pushing somewhere like a hundred it's on the move, so both history and human nature, those are powerful force and you get a sense willy, like we're, arguing over masks, and we have a country like ukraine or got bigger things to worry about then showing us like

Freedom really is what certainly puts in perspective fighting for freedom. When we have people our country saying my freedom is yelling at their hostess at the oligarchy. I'll make you ask, I mean like assault on wearing ass. I now, I think, sometimes, that the flight attendants are gonna, be relieved about this, because we are dealing with an angry kennedy. S rightly it's terrible with a flight attendants deal. I mean they ve benches absolute readily stare of all right, let's the latest in ukraine, where they visuals, they are say. Russia has launched its anticipated offensive in the eastern dumbass region. The ukrainian military says the new phase began when russian forces try to break through its defences along the entire front line from car keys in the north. To look don't next in the south, but some military officials, both in ukraine and in the west say the ground is still being set. A ukrainian military official tells the new york times at the offensive will quote activated

In the coming days, and quote last week, the? U s, Russia wasn't ready to launch the new offensive because of ongoing logistical problems. Here is what the pentagon is saying now. These peer to be chronic difficulties that the russian military is had in terms of logistics and sustaining command and control unit cohesion operational, maneuver integration of air to ground all problems. They still suffer from So it remains to be seen whether they have quote fix these problems and are now ready to execute in a more efficient way in the dawn. Boss are estimates is that they are still struggling with. A lot of these problems are also also our assessment is that part of the reason we're talking about shaping operations in the down basis, because the russians are trying to learn from their mistakes. So, in the light few days we have seen their move in, as I said, command and control enablers. aviation support, largely helicopters. We need artillery units ahead of what

be massive ground movements by troops or larger grand movements by troops. So appears as if they are trying to learn from those mistakes, but again it remains to be seen whether they ve actually fixed their problems in a village. discussing the new russian offensive ukrainian president woloda meares Olenska, said quote: we will defend ourselves, we will fight. We will not give away anything ukrainian admiral? Nobody doubts that, after what we ve seen over the last couple of months in ukraine, but the question remains of what this offensives gonna look like. It's the front page of all the newspapers that this long anticipated invasion. The east has begun a big aid package sign that last week, announced by president by but still presents alliance. Who says it's not enough. Those forty thousand rounds of artillery or nice at last is about a week. We need more, we need more so when we expect to see now as russia moves in from the east. Let's do it on both sides, so on the russian side of this we're gonna see combined arms operations, which means simply putting together

All those pieces, admiral kirby, just talked about integrating them. That's hard. Hard for you s militaries to do. We ve got a lot of experience doing this in Iraq and afghanistan. Doing that kind of seed or white operation is very hard number two logic, Next, we talk about it endlessly, but Fashionables are focused on logistics, the amateur a word about the strategy logistics each strategy for launching so the idea that Russia's going simply immediately solve these kind of deep rooted problems in third. Finally, you surge leadership onto a battlefield toward seen again and again, as lack direct leadership, so on the russian side of this year, we're going to see a lot of peace parts moving on the battlefield, don't look for some sweeping cohesive battle plan on you, cranium side. Look for it this resistance. Well, if they are here to stay in

and let's close on a snapshot. Mary opal doomed city, but where you see, defenders like at the alamo abstained and delivering for their country, may fight hard through the ukraine at their steel facts were looking right. Now, that's their alamo. It is their alamo and we are we honour it. So admiral, I for a while now that this battle in the donbass is going to look different than what we have seen to this point in the war which lot of has been urban warfare sort of guerrilla fighting. But this is going to be more set piece. Combat, explain to viewers exactly what It means that he's going to be tanks lined up what sort of numbers we talked about. What sort of artillery is going to be used yet think about the revenge of geography? In other words, you can change a lot of things on the battlefield. You can't change the terrain, Thus, as you point out correctly jonathan out of the city's onto plains of ukraine is a vast think, kansas and

as a result of that that armor can move above tanks, the armor personnel carriers and yes with the russians invasion, is ace sweeping set peace. Kind of battle like we have seen since the second world war, will see a if they can deliver that in The ukrainians have plenty of fire power. There were given them to put a real sense of deep and in front of the russian. So it it's going to be quite striking to watch and before the show we were talking about my brother Ian, who spent time in ukraine helping establish defense policy back in like the early nineties, but he also did some army experience and again the difference between these two militaries ukraine vs russia, logistics- there, completely disorganized and russia in a way that surprising people, doo, doo, doo, ever admiral when you were serving, did you ever since

get any head of this among your russian counterparts that that they will just let's face it. They're they're, like a mass double I at best there might put it this way. The second best army in ukraine. Right now they are bad. Maybe beggar, yeah during about tat, years ago, when I was supremely commander of NATO, I spent a fair amount of time with my counterparts, general nickolay, mockery of, and he would talk Endless endlessly about how the russian we're gonna professionalized how they were gonna, get out of the conscript business. How we're going to improve their logistics. There we're going to improve their technology and we watch that and saw some of that happening. But limited Joe until the What's fly you? Don't know what kind of military you actually have interests and by the way, present g, as he looks at the world

he's gotta be asking himself. I wonder if what my generals and animals are telling me is about his act. It is what to sell little mind his so new photos appear to show russia's top warship before it sank, black sea a twitter account. That shares open source intelligence posted photos claiming to show the moscow after it caught fire. If all experts say they believe the ship is the moss muscular but admit that can't be certain. The pentagon has said. The photos cannot be verified. Ukraine says it hit the ship with miss cells, but russia, clay. The ship caught fire when ammunition onboard exploded by the way so bad? meanwhile, families of the russian sailors, who were a board that ship are searching, answers there. Disputing clay, inspire russia's defence ministry that the entire crew about food five hundred sailors was evacuated. Last week,

word sank to the bottom of the black sea. The washington post, reporting social media groups uniting mothers of russia's soldiers deployed in ukraine are filling up with photos. please from parents, look for their missing signs: zero girls. Here it- and here it comes just like afghanistan, one russian mother told the guardian. The defence ministers called her yesterday and confer and her son's death. She told the paper quote: he was only nineteen. He was a conscript. They Tell me anything else, I'm sure he's not the only one who died. Defence ministry, released video that it claims shows the sailors of the mosque, though of them but in crimea after the ship sank, but only about one hundred crew members or in the video, which is far fewer like four hundred fewer than the

estimated crew and on top of that, another significant loss for russia's navy russian state media confirm yesterday the death of a navy captain. He was injured late last month when the ukrainian missile hid his ship in a port in south eastern ukraine. Screening where's the sank, one landing ship and damage to others in that attack them back to the moscow for disarmament. First of all, the significance strategically. an symbolically of losing that ship and then, on the other side, russia whitewashing to its own people. What happened? not telling the mothers of these soldiers that some of their sons died or may have died, obviously, a humiliation for them and an embarrassment for the way they're handling back home and and some people in fact, turning on Putin from this yeah, let's start with the ship and selfish named for the capital. Moscow is what moskva means in russian and this would be stove tat. U s carrier george Washington, like our capital, sank and so think about

a world in which your capital, goes down and by the way string, distinctive looking ship, and I for one believe those are pretty accurate photos were seen. You can fake anything. Let slip stipulate that but railway, that's that's high end, if its fake- and I don't think it is and then willie when you couplet to the fact that come ashore. Your ship has sunk and you home effectively a you. Do good job parade for the crew, and four hundred of them are missing It's not a good luck in also when I put all that together. I think this is a stunning blow to the russian navy, and secondly, it gets just gotta make Vladimir Putin's head explode on top,

of how badly his army is doing in the navy. Next thing, I dunno russian airplanes, you're gonna just start falling out of the six four hundred sync up. Friends looking for someone, yet you can't hide this. What what what? What what what's causing the humiliation we understand on the logistical side, they vague they just stout. They just don't have the leadership we understand on the battlefield they just don't have soldier setter. Inspired defied are we talking about when, where we were seeing just the collapse not only and not only on ground, but also at sea, is that Weapons systems is that is at issue is: are we starting to see western weapon systems get the best? of of russian weapons systems are. Does it? come down to

the fierceness of the ukrainian fighters, and it's all the above, but in particular I'm gonna point to de spirit of the ukrainians. That's really the centre of gravity in this fight clause, which said the centre of gravity, is that about which all else were involved in personified by a? We are now putting the tools? Your point, that technology, moved on beyond where the russians believed it would be at this point so its having real effect and then Finally- and most importantly again, you can't leadership. Sometimes, When you start combat, you huh the wrong generals in command in europe admirals the criticise general, but I'll put it this way. Think about you, states at the start of world war. Two joe, we didn't have the right generals. We didn't have the right admirals we had to bring in a new team. I think poot looks at his general.

In the admiral bench and he doesn't have what he needs them. You said something key a minute ago, which is that the sole russian soldiers are not inspired to fight the will. Well, if these two armies is so different, there's such a gap between the ukrainians are defending not only their country but their way of life and freedom and democracy and on display for the world, and some of these conscripts, like the young man we just talked about who died the nineteen year old, they've gotta be asking themselves. Why am I here right? Why am I being ordered to butcher civilians and butcher? Why am I being ordered to bomb off maternity hospitals? he is? The mission here and a lot of them are not buying the argument there being told back home, which is ukraine, Actually it's the aggressor, that's where the russian argument has has come and there being ordered to watchers, savelli, vs, intercepted radio us messages show The orders are coming from above and by the way, flattened air Putin just held and word ceremony in handed out nettles.

To the unit that wasn't boucher. Think about it's unbelievable, so let's about vladimir Putin and the undead, We ve seen how This war is unfolding because who face to face to face this who phase is where we move past, just giving them old soviet weapons, old russian weapons and waste, using western weapons. We start restart we ve been western weapons. American and systems into the hands of the ukrainians, and we know Therefore, Vladimir putin things go from bad to worse, so let's just talk about where does the sand? If you're sitting there talking to the president, and you're saying, MR president: yes, we're going to start rolling up on the battlefield. The ukrainians are gonna start rolling them up on. The battlefield may even push bruton.

kinda russia, but then what he has to respond. Does he respond with nuclear? Does he responded? Chemical weapons doesn't seem to be good in game regardless does it? I d give three words: no good options. This one doesn't have a nice neat, bow we're gonna die on it and I get a minimum we're going to end up with a longer bigger kind of frozen conflict, as the saying goes because the idea that we're gonna rule the russians and push back into ukraine boy. That's a tall. It's not impossible, but when you look at the realities on the battlefield. The mass the scale of what russia has it's him the unlikely that derga not slip a switch and decide decision

that anymore. We're going home, I dont see put doing that so willing and joe and Mika Jonathan. What I worry bout is horses nor escalation and, in particular, a word about cyber? Whether putin will unleash a high school cyber attack, not just in ukraine but in the west, I worry, as you said, Joe about a chemical weapon that's more likely than a nuclear weapon. I work about him continuing you just pounded these cities war crimes to the max. So I think lock were in for a longer, and I know we have to go but what do you say to people watching and they watch they watch news. Five, six seven hours a day. They see Putin indiscriminately killing civilians and they say enough is enough. We have to go in this. I ask you that question saying we can't

I personally we ve been warning hair morass, that's what we got: and we always say can't do it. We just can't do it, I'm still at the king. Do it? Because Putin has six thousand nuclear weapons point. We are told that in the back of our minds, but on the other hand, we all ought to be putting on our ukrainian colors, whom we oughta be supporting, giving the tools to sell linsky people talk about a nato no fly zone, how bout a ukrainian no fly zone using jets that we give them right arm and we're moving in the right direction. Here. I think we just have to dial it up again bearing in mind the consequences of a wider, I don't know you don't like to be attached to generals. The general mccaffrey yesterday said we ve been. He said we need more, we need more, we need more, but then that's what We americans say I said: ok, we need more. How been doing so, for he says pretty remark.

Would you agree without assessment that four people that maybe I because we're not going into ukraine right now, but how would how would you grade nato? How would you great the united states and providing weapons? I think we're doing an exceptional job, particularly. Act where we started this conversation logistics, it's a foot race to put tools in the hands of the ukrainians were going to

that foot race and by the way of all the jungles I know you can always attachment of their lifetime and as I live in an hour, I still I had on morning Joe. We have more leading military voices with us this morning as russia. Launching its new offensive in ukraine, air force veterans, brigadier general robert spalding and general lorry robinson will both be our guests plus the prevalent appears to have suffered a major intelligence breach as ukraine lakes, personal data for thousands of soldiers and spies will speak with a veteran of the cia about that also ahead. The ukraine will join opinion union we have an update on the country's application status and vladimir Putin claims sanctions against russia have failed, but numerous courting says the impact on its economy is very real. You're

morning Joe will be right back you may be able to help solve a mystery. Can you help bring a missing person home? We need anyone who saw something to come forward. Josh, mankiewicz and I'm andrea canning, and this is dateline. The missing in america in each episode will focus on one missing person. Where are they listened closely as we tell these stories and follow the clues that could lead you to help crack a case dateline missing in america? Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts hello there, I'm chuck todd meet the press. Have some great notes. You can also get a daily dose of politics news put analysis on our new show its press now everyday

beyond the headlines to explain, what's happening in politics we got here and why man matters also talk the folks from both It's all about the issues this country faces and how what's happening in washington impacts. All of us. You could watch meet the press now. Every weekday at four pm eastern streams free on NBC news now and it's available on all streaming platforms I am simple. Like six thirty in the morning beautiful live picture of the white house. Ukraine's intelligence service claims to have leaked the personal information of more than two thousand russian soldiers and spies. The first list allegedly includes the names, birthdays, job, titles and passport numbers of six hundred and fifty agents from russia's security agency. The efforts be the second less is said to include the information of sixteen hundred russian troops, who,

stationed in the ukrainian city, a butcher or a mass murder of civilians, believed have taken place and we see news has not yet verify the accuracy of all that data mark polymer, propolis joins us. Now is a twenty six year veteran of the cia, serving in both a rack enough, understand. That's where the agency's most decorated feel officers markets great to see this morning, one asking about what's happening, the east of ukraine right now, but first, what are you? because of that report that ukraine leaked all that information. What is the benefit of doing that? What for thanks for having me today. I think that I just have to say the greek diaspora is cheering now you have a stove radius and polymeropoulos on and we need. We need george tenet and then, as the greek hat trick, but look at the the the the the release of this information is pretty extraordinary. You know we talk about hybrid warfare and we always kind of feared that the russians

Do things like this? The ukrainians are doing it right back at them and it matters because, first of all it gets into Putin's head. It certainly affects the morale of have these units that are involved in the atrocities- and it goes far to the final point- is at some point- there's going to be a reckoning in terms of war crimes and so ukrainians. Our message to the russians, as we know who did this, we are going to hold you accountable and- and I think that really important and there's more to come, I think, we're going to see messaging campaigns from the ukrainians, perhaps in conjunction with the allies to russian military units stationed inside ukraine, in a warning them about certain things, such as war crimes? So they're are on the offense. This is a good thing and we're, finally, really you know playing in there, in the russians old sphere, albert warfare and we're winning so an event in georgia. Last week, cia director, william burns gave this answer when asked about the threat of russia using nuclear weapons in ukraine, given

potential desperation of president Putin and the russian leadership, given the setbacks that they've so far militarily none of us can take lightly. Posed by a potential resort to attack it nuclear weapons are or low yield nuclear weapons work. That's what I was talking about most romania's about before the possibility of losing, even after the ukrainians, when talking that part of burnt speech, but also the speech in general and the importance of it sure is. It's a last week, you know billboards made us what is it and that since its first public speech, I think that you know what you what you just relate before got a lot of play because he gave you know you know a warning about the actual use of tactical nuclear weapons and look when billboards talks are we really the lesson. But he also went on to say that we haven't seen signs of any movement. So I think that the individual,

intelligence. Community come is communities can be laser, focused on on taking a look at the russian capabilities, land, sea and air- how they would employ these tackle new growth, nuclear weapons? We haven't seen movement yet and that's a good thing. If do one of two things I would expect to see more of these authorized disclosures, and that is has been very effective and pass. It's almost operational lies and intelligence, but it would be a message to the world that point. Is going down this path, I'm sorry it's going to be a warning to Putin but but there's another side of this too. I also think that there is going to be a message to china, because the present g in china- I don't want to see this- this conflict go nuclear, so perhaps you know it will almost be kind of reaching out to try in saying it put some pressure on your client state. So I expect authorized disclosures. If we see this kind of movement, but look you know, This makes us warning, and you know this is one of the most respected figures in the national security establishment. We should real, listen to him in terms that speech itself. It was wrong. A boy. You know he laid out the kind of a short term challenge of of

The russian companies, they talked about potent said, he's a parcel of pay back. What align he talked about it. long term challenge of of china and then there's there's two other key points and this he talked about how it for the? U s, operational capabilities of human intelligence. What I used to do you know we are we are faced with what's called the ubiquitous ubiquitous tech, technical surveillance, environment, which means its harder to run human intelligence operations. The cia has to adapt and the last piece of of the speech which, for me, really was profound ass. He talked about. when he was a young diplomat, one of his friends, mac gatt and was killed in pan I'm one of three- that's a cia officer whose name stars on the wall, the memorial, while at langley, really kind of profound momentum, and so I think burns in laid out a really positive speech for the future of the intelligence community and again when he speaks people better. Listen,

It really is something what the white house has been doing from from the beginning. Talking about using intel against potan, first of all, saying he's going to invade when all of our allies and Olenska was saying, and now he is not stop panicking. Fighting was right about that, but I ain't can't. Imagine anything talk talk about the site, I can't imagine anything driving vladimir putin crazier. Then, when you have the pentagon spokesperson, going behind the podium with and at what with pentagon. Yellow is a assigned behind him saying this, What's happening at the russian military now these the problems are having this is I therefore appreciate the dawn. Buzz is going to be slow for a while. They make me, they have been is obviously I have been beating russia at their game and it's it's not even close. I mean this is like you know can be like when,

the red sox play tampa when we play in the blue jays I mean it's going to be partying with us, yeah the I know, you're right and that would drive any leader crazy, particularly one like Putin, who is a former intelligence officer himself. Ryan burns was the driving force behind this strategy at the white house. By the way burns has spent time with Putin ambassador former ambassador. Russia knows Putin well speaks russian. He among anyone on Biden's staff knows Putin the best and he was the one, the driving force he to the craft, a strategy prior to the war to put out intelligence in public and to keep doing so, even as the conflict has begun. Sir mark one thing that they have warned about was the idea that she would engage in cyber attacks and it has been surprising that really hasn't happened yet, but we got a fresh round of warnings just the last couple of days here, with Putin, seemingly cornered the war not going well about to focus on the don boss that this might finally be the moment where they unleashed cyberattacks. How would the? U s and the west prepare for something like that?

think we have and that you know it. It is curious to a lot of us. You are outside of government now as to why this hasn't occurred, but I also get a sense that perhaps there sits there are some things we did. We did. You know our defences up. And so I wouldn't be surprised. You know in the in the weeks and months to come to to understand that or to learn that the? U S has actually been pretty good and thwarting russian cyber in one of the things that that the russians were very effective at where the years is, is using offensive cyber operations. When our guard was down. You know that happened, certainly in europe in ukraine, when they took down kind of the power infrastructure and, of course, the united states in the past. So I think we ve all collectively gotten better, but I would I would I get a sense that that we ve done a lot of is behind the scenes that we don't know about.

and we'll find out down the line, but but kudos to cyber command and those who have really kind of taken this, as as their mantra mark things when you're talking about three greeks, we have three red sox fans who really don't want to think about it. Yesterday I was declaring this the greatest red sox team of all time, because we were five and four and in second place I think it's safe to say we're five and five, now five five or five psi, five hundred or five hundred, obviously we're on our way to having the worse red sox record. Since nineteen sixty five, I mean we said, sixty five socks, while all the routes, one hundred, gain all the goodwill built from the impossible dream of nine six seven on wasted in the morning yesterday. Yes, it was a tough loss at marker guy with a long last name, cia lodge and thanks so much for being, thank you for being, on average, a break with all the talk of logistics and morale and justice. This passion chaired passions that the ukrainian

military has an impressive feats, mary Mary pole many say, will fall in in a matter of days either and that that will be punch on many levels, but what will that offer the russians in terms of access to the area, maybe even a whole kind of swore of the eastern side, tee to claim sketch into what is Vladimir Putin's minimum and gain his minimum game. If you look at that map is is concerned, all over a strip, a light the bridge is sometimes called that runs from part did centre. the city of mary, opel and so on. fortunately, what you're gonna see is put in jail pound away again the images of the alamo. I think her germane here and

He will then turn around and say to the russian people. Look at what I've done. Live consolidated, complete control over this vital piece of sea coast. This is where all the russian speakers live. I think that that in game narrative he's building, it involves very rough campbelltown really quickly, just about something that that mark brought up We get burns yeah mission, the perfectly for this. He speaks russian dahlia. He knows odin. Couldn't any better. Help me to make this personal, but in poland you a brzezinski. Somebody who not only is fluent in Paul but also has lived their father, abi seen icon from there. You look, How, by set in two key critical countries. I mean well it's brilliant, sir lock? It still pretty good, especially

looking at burns and russia. This is a superb team and I'll throw it other one, a woman who is de ambassador to nato julie smith, who is really quite quite good and has been a nato hand forever she's in the right position to drive something big, that's coming and in my opinion, that is finland and sweden joining nato. Incredible is it's incredible and of course, mark presidency are currently bass and her is a former in basque or to sweden. So you see how these pieces start to fit together and boy. You want to talk about making Lattimer prudence had its brain.

Finns, swedes and belay are fighters. When I was a nato commander, occasionally, my security detail would be provided by the swedes and because, unlike five five, they would send a six foot four inch vikings that there were fire fighters coming up. China continues to back russia despite worldwide condemnation for the war in ukraine will look at the actions that Biden administration could take against beijing for supporting putin will also talk to a member of the white house. Security council ahead of President Biden's call with western allies today and more on the judge's decision to lift the federal math mandate on most public transportation morning. Joe is coming right back the

the, it, continues to heat up with more pivotal primaries on MSNBC on election tuesday, Steve cornell will be at the big board, pointing down more races to help you better understand the numbers. This is a tighter, narrower midterm climate. The day after morning, Joe will discuss what the results could mean for november. Twenty twenty two is really going to be a referendum, not one Joe Biden. It's going to be a referendum on the republican party primary election coverage on MSNBC these days. The news never stops. The morning

headlines changed by afternoon and by the end of the day, it's all totally different. So, let's get into it what's happening right now, what it all means for you for an hour every day I get it. I know that it can be hard to keep up. So let's get started together and go from there, hey I'm Ali jackson, and we have a ton going on tonight. Here's the deal jackson now weekdays at five pm eastern on NBC news now its forty seventh ass. They our getting new details this morning about china's continued support of russia that China, he's foreign ministry released a statement saying china will increase its quote: strategic coordination with russia, regardless of international volatility, the chinese side, foreign, not no vice for minister gave that assurance to russia's ambassador to China

joining us now retired, air force, brigadier general robert spalding he's a former china strategist at the pentagon, now c, o of the tec security firms, simper his new book entitled war, rules china's playbook for glow, world domination, also with us, professor, at columbia, university economists, doktor Jeffrey sachs great, to have you back on the show with us. That of us who so general in sugar think so much ring where this is and she just hasn't been able to get out of his way over the past year. You can look at the zero covered strategy. That's just wrecking economy, right now, the missteps in Hong kong, embracing Vladimir putin before he goes on a disastrous military campaign. Obviously they want to be part of a system. They wanted to not dominated system that too, wants to disrupt why

do they continue to embrace him. Well, one of the problems that you have to deal with, both with putin Adam was. She is a fact that they are leaders of Joe tell a tearing regimes so a lot of times. They don't get that you know any feedback, that's really positive, but of course was she there's something even more, I think sinister behind it, and that is he wanted to see how the west would react, putin with his invasion of ukraine, because he plans a similar invasion of taiwan eventually and show understanding the economic and financial and political ramifications of bad invasion actually helps him understand how he, indeed with the west when they, when he does something similar to taiwan, would you Let me ask you if you agree with admirals readers that he did the last six weeks, certainly I've had to raise questions in this had about what

be Taiwan's not worth it. Russia was supposed to roll and a cave in two or three days. It turned out. That way. Do you do you think you think we're over simplifying our red of she in in thinking that he may be going through that an and met drawing those conclusions, she's, basically said that he is not gonna. Leave taiwan to the next generation. The chinese don't get deterred by actions of the west. What they seek to understand and accomplished is how did they take advantage of the situation and with russia's invasion of ukraine? It's really about learning the lessons and man they're going to turn around and they're gonna use those lessons on things like the belt and road. Initially they're going to strengthen energy cooperation with russia, they're going to use their satellites to date to reach

we isolate and secure their economy from any. You know sanctions that may be coming from the west, so no, I don't think it's going to deter she in any way. I think what is going to do is allow him to take measures internally to china, bandwidth in conjunction with other countries, through the belt and road initiative, to ensure that the west doesn't have the same levers that they had with regard to Putin, intersects when you look at the economic side of this of the decision by china to side with russia. What is the calculation there of further isolating itself when it's saying we side with a country that invaded a sovereign nation that is murdering civilians by the tens of thousands right now and is looking to annex some of the territory from ukraine? Does I care about the isolation that that brings with it. What is his economic strategy here? I think europe, the votes and it it's a little bit different from what we think there are many countries that have put on sanctions, but they

represent just fifteen percent of the world population. There were ninety four countries that voted to suspend russia from the human rights council, but they for. Only twenty four percent of the world Population basically have the? U s and europe particular posture. It's not just. china. It's almost all of the developing world, is saying this is and are now These sanctions are hurting stare hurting the world economy. So the idea I just want to be clear, whatever right or wrong the idea that these sanctions are going to do the job or that they will turkey, china, we just heard, then they will not, but it's china being isolated, were talking, a lot to ourselves. Actually, I'm I've been traveling

all over the world as usual, and the view is very, very different outside of the u s in europe. This is just important for us to understand that such We talk about the population. I've heard I've heard about the percentages population that actually has not condemning russia. Let's talk about the economics of the yes: it's a smaller percentage of the oh population, but certainly outsize, there's an outsize economic impact white. We We ve heard officials connected with china. Saying that there are obvious I eat more and are interwoven economically with the west than they are with russia. Is that a concern for china as they move forward It is a concern, of course, and you are right that the share of the world economy pending on how you counted,

maybe forty percent or fifty percent- that are imposing sanctions right now. It's not that predominant not, decisive sanctions have not ever been decisive, even when they impose day in very harsh ways against very nasty regimes: they they don't change the political calculus very much actually so, yes name will be cautious, they will be prudent, but it's really going to change the the course either the war or of the geopolitics- and I think important? As you know, in the sub text, him all of the terry news that you were discussing in the last two minutes, no, Options banning horizontal conflict, longer battle land bridge to crimea, no deterrent effect of the sanctions. We should really.

a more sober view. It seems to me we should understand that military things mean one thing, but getting political outcomes is quite a different thing and were nineteen years after quote, mission accomplished was declared. We know that that was because of a military enthusiasm, but it didn't turn to the political outcomes. should be thinking about politics more than we are and we're not really thinking about an games because, as we heard, the current approach has no no end game, no good and game. So we're not thinking about and games, and I would prefer that we also think about and games that are real. Stick achievable and actually would save ukraine. Well, I do I'm, not exactly sure. I don't see people jumping up and down talking about how this is a cake walk in there certainly not sing celebrations of the three. This is a very grim situation. Let em here

it is not only committing war crimes and soldiers are committed war crimes and then he's giving them awards for committing of war crimes. He's elevating generals, committed an unspeakable horrors in Aleppo He of course connected with chechnya. So, I want to ask you what you think we should do moving forward and I wanna know to our viewers. Soup may Remember this I'm sure they don't, but I remember after twenty thousand, and now you are one of the few people that came on the set and chided the obama administration said we have a treaty with ukraine. We guaranteed the sovereignty of their borders and, if don't do anything about it. It will just invite future regression. I eimer be saying that in twenty, fourteen here we are, of course, Eight years later,. So what do we do now? I think we are. We need a diplomatic track and, while that sounds weird, its act

We quite important and we don't have a diplomatic track right now. We we have the two racks wanting is added military, which is gonna, get ukraine polarized. The other track is sanctions which will not work in the way that they think they're going to work in I'll have a diplomatic track. We don't have an end game approach based on the EU and security council, diplomacy and so forth, and I do that there is such a track possible. I personally have long viewed it. Prudent, whether desirable or not, but the way to save ukraine I thought was was- was actually a neutral ukraine stabilize and under adding that we weren't going to have a conflict inside ukraine? I don't and up and cheer when we hear that finland.

in sweden, are about to join nato. I just think that this deepens what could turn into a full world war. Three, so would, rather, that we added diplomatic track and hear from our diplomats, not how we're going to put pressure on, but what kind the end game. We could actually reach with russia. which, as a major patroness, you been saying china but has much of the world actually saying we peace, because this is gonna, destroy brad, are our work but also our global economy. Ten bali. How, though, do condemn diplomacy with a country in russia and a leader embodiment Putin who is ignored it? Please let ignored sanctions was ignored, outreach from the united states and from ukraine as well entertaining even a meeting with the landscape putin at one point in continuing to kill civilians and to you know

the position is troops for a larger offensive, that's underway now, according to president's alessi, have you sit down across them at table with a country like that? reasonable, good faith, conversation about how to end this went on You do that today. I think we ve entered the first phase of a very law on conflict

with china, russia and other authoritarian regimes. I think what the rest of the world response to has always been america's prosperity. The idea of american that's china is one of the things that we lost after the end of the cold war, so we stopped investing in ourselves. We stopped and that seen in empty structure, we stopped investing in our industrial base in based our stand. Education are science and technology. We are spending two percent of gdp on research and development during the cold war and we spend less and point seven percent. Today we were spending more over the last three years, sending troops step, Ghana, stand and actually sending students to universities, and so it's really about investing in ourselves and as we invest in ourselves, the rest of the world will begin to look to the united states as a source of you. No prosperity in a vision for the future right now, they're looking towards china, because that where the economy has been growing but unfortunately, what's happened, is China has used the innovation that technology, the talent, the capital of america, to build up their economies in the eyes of the world?

that was our fault in it's time to start building up our society in our economy, because, as we do, then we're going to be much better, prepare to deal with the hearts and minds of those abroad, and then, if we just focus on the ukraine war today, it's not going to be over. Just with this. It's going to extend it's going to be longer and we have to think in in terms of economics and politics and financed over the long term, and how do we show the the value of freedom? What is it? What is the point of our society and how to which portrayed as the rest of the world has really been through our citizens? Alright

book is war without rules, China's playbook for global domination, retired airforce general robert spalding. Thank you very much and doktor Jeffrey Sachs. Thank you as well great to see you again and still I had more expert military analysis on russia's new offensive in ukraine. To retired. U S, air force, veterans, general lorry, robinson and officer Sarah craps joins us plus will speak, live with white house national security, advance council council Matt Miller about what the intelligence community thinks thinks. Vladimir Putin's next moves will be we're back in one minute, whether its complexities of climate change. The challenge of racial injustice or the threat to american democracy get your daily. Seven lightning articles at MSNBC, daily written perspectives people. You know and trust

many hoss Joyce bats and doktor computer patel along with a groan. As of experts offering their insights plus fresh takes pays brown and z sean ali start. Europe with MSNBC daily at msnbc dot, com.