Karen and Georgia join comedian Patton Oswalt, lead researcher Paul Haynes, and investigative journalist Billy Jensen for a discussion of Michelle McNamara’s book, I’ll Be Gone In The Dark.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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I was afraid dislike. Not the whole table over time, but this is so To be sitting this way at the bookstore that usually am at this way
if my face in the book deciding if I wanna hear more sideways, what I'm saying here, it's all now learning thing as this is my book store, I'm really excited to be talking at it in a microphone will welcome the skylight blue angel thanks guys welcome everybody we are thrilled when patent asked us to moderate is very weird word for this, but to common and kind of co host this with them. Of course, we were thrilled. I knew Michel and we both were huge man's of true crime diary and the work that she has been doing and and did for true crime and for, but you know, being an online sleuth and the EAST area rapist. Ultimately, golden state killer case she's, put in so much incredible, work technically and then
To read this book, I just for me that the level of writing in this book is so incredibly impressive, and it's like you when I read your crime at you kind of expected a certain as tone. It's mostly factual information. All you know with a little bit of like Color Misha. This book reads to me: like just fine, literature and I'm just so impressed I'm so proud of her. It such an exciting thing that this book exists right now, so we are very proud to be a part of this. I mean I know it's it's I don't know it's a thing. It's I feel like were more, were holding space for this book in this effort and this body of work that that someone really dedicated their whole life too, and so it's really an honour to be here with you guys tonight to eat a talking about this book. So I guess I don't know yeah right.
So so I think my will bring out patent as well and Billy Jensen and how Haines, who helped Spanish the thank you guys, yeah this is this. We Jensen he was a journalist friend of Michel's and Paul Haines was Michel's researcher referred to in the book as the key occurs is the kid together, so yeah and I'm bringing them here because they live here at all. All of these book. I wasn't able to take them with me, and my function as you will see, will be about Michel and the talk in very kind of subjective com. Poetic terms about what happened and then go and Billy in part. Could you please explain
like they actually have technical facts and an update to what is actually still going on with the case. So this worm were very free, looking at them the Irishman tonight. So so, thank you guys. I really appreciate it so exciting. Sure just get right to the updates just getting item. Well, ok, you you were talking when we did the event. We did an earlier event in L, a There was a a pie The bullied and by the way before I get him started This ends in frustration. Again, there was a very strong possible lead that lead from them. Looking at eight a fancy baltic over in which they discover that the other side of it. Let only take pulling a protected area. So anyway, visit the crime scene, you have a different perspective than you would have looking at them from like the birds, I view on Google MAPS and will be investigated in Sacramento,
visit the scene if I believe, a twenty Eightth rape and he realized. The offender leaving the scene we have had a steep drop unlikely would have been able to gauge the steep the sub. In the dark, because earth of lighting conditions were at conducive to that, and you know, but injury would have likely resulted from it. Andrews escaped from that seen in exactly three days later. There is an individual who presented himself at the River Hospital in car. Michael with a broken shoulder, and he claimed it was easier and on the job, injury and he provided a false name. Today, a false social security number from multiple stolen identities, and once became evident that the hospitals, I was suspicious of this individual. He fled and This is the way that wasn't really thought up on and so like three months ago, and it was determined at the hospital intake employ had since passed. So it's a dead end.
Yes, there is a lot of stuff like that of all we do. You know we're follow this thread, and then you just hit a wall. You know we're in which she, really really really creates and in the book the sensation of these cops. You, oh my god, this look so good we're getting and then you hit this and then you ve got to get to recover from the disappointment of not only did did that not pan out but Viper doing that. I've, given this killer, another two three month led yet a further hedge,
because I just follow the wrong we'd, yet in its worst away, that's away. We talked about this last time as we talk about these aspects that we have. We all have certain aspects that we like in the suspect list, as is especially have as in Michel's computer, was a thousand people, but there was ones that she liked and that's how you refer to that. Do you like this guy? Is this guy look good and it's almost like your falling in love with these soldiers when it doesn't pan out? Ah it's your your hark. It's broken to a certain extent and you get you go into a very dark place and we ve all been therewith. Fritz had only the doesn't pay out in one of my other investigations and Michel? Certainly I've been, you know, I've had Michel coming, we were gonna have drinks and the first thing she said was I solved it and let it just didn't. Didn't work, usually a jail and eventually, but you get the data which never once it that would only really last like it didn't at baby a day for her. I think I never really something I wasn't whether every day, but she was
right that got there a bit like our I you know, because there's always gonna be especially in this case. There was always another leading to follow. Wasn't like every dead and actually was not a dead end just turn around and then lead to another path. I know I thought so frustrated in the book when it was like explaining someone that was looked very, very good for the case and in the dna. Wouldn't this simple little thing and everything else on paper was a represent that person and you know you start wanting to not believe DNA, which is saying right. Anxious I mean I can't imagine, can't we bring back alchemy and reading and rails and watching Albert I what's wrong with that, any you use it again that language of finding a suspected you it is. It is the exact same language as an early crush where you're like here,
I would like in this guy he's looking good he's good and then, when that, when a piece of evidence will come up that exonerates him, they will use phrase like he blew it, and I was so in any blew it. It was the same he showed up wearing a mega had I was ending in no hurry ass. Somebody else to throb, yet guy right, very blue. It so you're that that kind of you have to get that emotionally involved and I mean, I remember very specifically some very mornings for her she'd be at her laptop crying because I just she's gone nowhere or very, very bad, late knights of a lotta brooding, but like he said after a couple is, she would ok whose neck she would open the files again and let's go back into a man. It was arena where she got that energy or where she got that fortitude Dick
keep doing that, even though it was getting chipped away like that, it also seems like in reading it advocates. I went to college in Sacramento and the way it like you could so tell that she went there and spent time. Yes, she did. Those descriptions are so fucking laser. Accurate went the fact that she mentioned day on the green she'd, like being a teenager in the seventies in Sacramento, meant you went to the river you drink beer at the levy You went to day on the Green in Oakland or whatever it like all these things where, as you know at the time of seven in california- and they were teenagers, but that that she it was, a concise, was so insanely accurate, where I think part of it it seems to me, was the research was, passion so getting back into it as disappointed as she would get it. That was almost the south is like, but now there's this file to go through an end. In you, you mention yeah that that the actual physical going to the place and driving around and and feeling
the air and what it feels like in the summer verse what it feels like the winner very early on untrue crime diary. There was a murder up in general on the beach at which a couple was on the beach or make out a guy walked down and shot with a rifle. So in Europe you envision. This thing reminder oh yeah. He walked down to the beach with a rifle butt. She drove up to gender and went down to that beach. That beach was extremely rocky. Very we hardly she almost text in herself getting down there and I was not carrying heavy hundreds. Then she went and checked out what the rifle was. He would use its exe insanely heavy, so it took we changed her perception of what the crimes under. This wasn't guided ran He wandered down and shop people. This was a outdoor z plan knew what he was. So think that really stayed with her of let's always DR walk. Look at the crime scene talked the locals, find out. You know and find out from the time
He wouldn't I wrote, she would drive through Irvine, violent leader and she would make should make up, I've mixes up the songs, it would have been on the radio in those years too, and I am one time we were coming back from, Barbara and she sobbed drove, and it was damp foger, bird and the knee eagles and just like, I want it and in it made all those songs, kindness, thinnest, her walk down CAN Hotel California area song of all time take downfall. The brook has some Vogel Burg has some darkness it in the people. Do not talk about so much tired, the IRA and end. You know it's hard to say hard to say or die, but she would shit that you realise, like oh, the like every think contributed to what ended up happening. You notes that the movies were there were there that the Catch Fraser and people's heads she wanted to be totally absurd.
In that time. Will then- and I think that work it's so shows in this book, because I think it's like it's easy when you liked your crime or you read, it are your kind of this lake by a participant for me, It's so easy said to sit back and be like. Well, that's ridiculous! That in test that thing are all that weird judge, you shit where, when you actually go out and do the things that cops had to do and then she was really actually walking the walk which, as you know, we we have. We ever tool right now, especially as citizen detectives. If anybody has ever try to look into that cases using Google maps in using Google Street view when you can walk through, but the one thing that you dont get his death. That's what you won't be able to get that when she was looking up at the other generation would be able to get that when the young, that, with the possible need other guy jumping in averting the shoulder You have to be able to do that so important.
You go see scenes that used that you ve only seen pictures of an irrational there. Everything just really looks really small everything. Small ever there's a lot more condensing closer together, but you really get that sets adapt and it gives you a whole new perspective on Lebanon Yes, surely, when, when we were in boulder for a show, he went and drove a forest fire. The Ramsay House, and maybe it is tiny. You don't realize how close everything is in some one had to have heard something- and you know if she were here, she knew every single thing about the job, but he ran ass. She knew all of that. She knew the online slang media I worked in it. She knew the site. Pineapple was part of the slang. Remember her saying shit. She said that
Some note is the citizen Kane of Ransom, for noticed more than a page long like that, it should have put nothing but alarm bells. We will again be deferred alone, railroad. No one does no one page to them. We now have the body is. If I may, I start Travail, I'm sent back to my youth and the boys out. I remember those day. No one does that. So there was all these. She there were these books that you had a book did she was really really should read over and over again was Robert Grace Myths Zodiac Book, because it fascinating reed, because its fastened, case, but it also its it's a version of our begun in the dark were he's. Aware of how obsessed he is, what we're and in this book I think Michel was very very where she is owing to some weird areas here and even says the same drive that makes this guy. Oh and stop people and murder. People is what drives me in these cops Jackie,
pursuing him, no matter what an end said: the Zodiac Bookmark immigration is a fascinating book because it's a k study of the writer more than it is of the crime, but the writer doesn't realize he's writing it he doesn't realize he's giving you an autobiographical case study of his. Shrewdness YAP. Yes, of course, That's the feeling that I had when I first saw that picture of the town Hall meeting at the high school hours. I looked at every fucking manned space. In that picture, a he's there and the it's there the faces are so small. It was, it was tat. People I'm sure you all now by the people it dont know they finally had a town hall needing to get everybody together at the town hall, meaning there is a man who said. I can't believe this is happening. No man would let somebody come into their house and then a couple months later, I leave the isa.
Hit that house and that family matter him in his? Why him and his wife and they were victims, so they know for a fact. He was at this town Hall meeting ends. There could have been avoided. Sacramentos we do. There was down all the remainder is lay with no show business. Is it just a picture that just imagine had no nothing exciting our glamorous, but but what you're just saying there? That is, if you would you be certain towns? the town, has a personality, and then it will have you to understand that await a minute that I don't think that was a quences because of how You know like the changes, your view of the crimes, and it seems that this kind of fascinating. That way, I mean when I was doing my reading at powers, for this They told me, I'm sure they told you this do or maybe you'll be told. This whenever they. What I want. I want. I did readings from my other books. I'm just come in the round talking, but when I was doing this
but they have me sitting against a wall because Whenever there is readings for true crime books, there are plainclothes, perhaps in the audience and photographed the crowd leading because, because in the past, whenever an has done readings there, they would photographed the crowded back in the day and the Green River killer would be it. So we came flying to now right there today exactly, but they will photographed the crimes are guys you'd rather late, but don't worry about that, MR because any true crumbling, they photographic, crowded pills, because the Bishop
North West is your. Do you mind pursuit? They make sure. So when you guys, when your book comes out, you going toward take a look at your crowded powers, because it's gonna be all these girls with similar and addresses, and then some guy guys, but there are so that that kind of areas is, you know it. Bring up Joan Didion, but the picture there is theirs that death threats,
darkness in the suburbs and God dammit. It's there. The reason it's a clean sheet is go. This book is true and it is my experience is never venture than the suburbs of Sacramento because Sacramento go it just goes on and on and on. You can get in your car and drive it for four hours and still be in Sacramento, which made the leg of locking science fiction, show anti anti that you don't want to watch and also when you get out into those set car Michael's suburbs, those houses. It's you dont know one house from an ex. It's probably slightly different now but like it, it just had that that was part of the feel right is like you're, going out away from your job away from the city till I stay. So I think that's what so interesting about this in cases like we all know, but there's something in the places that he picked that tell He is because our or I'm from Irvine randomly where
couple of that cases are the attacks, happen and murders, and it's the same fucking thing and I think she described enamel started crying as like this. It's just a three Aids of Beijing Dennis this city in a totally as and these these, like boring, ranch, Thou houses and what you know, one story in its just it will you, they are these places that are supposed to feel safe and contained, and he brought same crazy scary nightmare to it almost on purpose, That's what I think are per year will what was the are you with? That was me agreement. I merely incidental to me- and I just wanted to have some love play you. Ok, there is mention what what are you that that idea that what was theirs? thing about these houses or this landscape that hold that out of him made like has ever been
over anonymous lighted. Things F in a layman. Paul can speak to you know this. There's two main areas were really focused on in part three, which is where we think this thing can be solved. Dna and particularly familial dna. We think the answer is there? It's it's in a database on place and assist a couple clicks away, just a matter where we can get to it or not. And then there's geographic profiling- and you know the idea of what this guy was, this guy wasn't in Michel believe as well as this guy. This wasn't about sex for this guy. This was about power and it was about taking somebody that is in their most comfortable to state their most safest. Which is they probably moved out of the city and there in the suburbs, and there in there now lie in their bed. Next to there man whose protecting them with a low got in the house, but meanwhile they don't know that he snuck in an undid. The garden did all this others not, you can't get more evil and end and diabolical that, and I think a lot that did have to do with the power of it is that
think you're safe, you're, not safe, I'm gonna come in here and show you what we'll terror is like a lot and that had to do with the geography. Yeah. I think you know, reading about the cereal fenders you is, the reader can just to show yourself well, I've never been opposition, and that would I happen to me with this case. You know these people or target in their own homes, in their beds at night, you can avoid being in that situation. I think that's what makes this case a terrifying, and I can't tell you how many every other tweet is about the uneven then everybody's, loving about which is amazing, but then every other tweet. As I just had to check the windows, I had to check the doors of the MOSS I swear lock. Sales have definitely not we. We, I was by my my wife, was reading this and just like, we are going to go over the alarm system. Yeah we're going to really read you the code for going to change like it makes you because these people had, state of the art defences. Ok, now you just let slip something there that that is
so I'm touched on in the book, and and also you guys unjust, on pass episodes you, but you also caught yourself doing this, which have back home when you really get into these cases, irreligion enemies kellers these there a part of you that will unwillingly kind of go and that was really diabolical and brilliant. What many illegal but he's a piece of shit and and Michel talk about that a lot in the book of these cops. They will start talking amendment. Did she described it? Is it The sensation of you find yourself talking Wait too long about an axe to your new girlfriend illegal but but fuck him. I don't think I could. I look like I think you're still it you said is that moment of you have to, but you catch him. You have to acknowledge that that was a very early at thing you know, Have you ever like done
talking Gees knotting. I well. I think that that disputes that that part and you and I actually talked about this- it was when Michel, I told you this peace and so Isabel forward so logo. It was like resenting by saving your life, Oh I'd say the same about how he used to go into the house early and then hide stuff and I'll. Tell you about it away, whereas I eat you can't do that. What is happening, but basically the person, the person who would what kind of person would be able to stick out a house for months and months, revisit it break in when the families, not their hide things, hide weapons or olive. Things where its levels of again MIKE you dont want to use the word dedication. You don't wanna use respectful words, but at the same time it's it's. It's not the average like somebody that that another Michel said people, this guy wasn't a genius he just practised along, and he
no it's like mountain global talks about the ten thousand hours of rank. There was terminated. We re Gladwell International. Ladies and gentlemen, mountain allowed. That's what this guy doubts did was he just Kanzi probably went out every night. You didn't do even attack every night, but he really was doing an early version apart. Jumping around the doing of us making dogs like no him man, you ve, given him trio's condoms wound, but when you write a book in that's one of the reasons why this book has been as resonate so much that when you're reading the most famous serial killer in history is Jack the ripper when you're reading, Jack, the ripper there is such a detachment only because it happened a long time ago. Bikes like well, I'm not a luxury walkers ever gonna happen to me.
Great walked out the shore across the same thing, with an already again you reducing other. Second after me, aren't you gonna call me all so: disabled people lovers- lions, that's ok, but yourself, everybody's leaves, and there are not yet why this resonates with everybody dies. There I just remembered the one where it's the teenage girl who hear some outside her window and because they were talking about how pale he was in the very things that earlier vice Alia that guy there Tucker part
and a girl. Here's the noise outside our window and then looks down and sees like a moon looking thing and then realises its face. Looking up at her in the bushes and then the way Michel describes it. Is he skaters away like a lizard or something like that worries us, like I'm, very upset? Why is it so? It's a person who has is basically dedicating his life to be too being. As upsetting the Earl and horrifying as possible, explain that in Europe, even if he's not killing someone, if he is also he's designed his life round. Even if I'm scene I wanted to be on so I don't wanna haunt people end and shake up in, feeling of safety or normalcy. I want to be something in someone's field of vision that then they Never look at the world completely the same way again. That's what that is like the gaze, because I,
if it feels like someone going. I cannot make my mark any other ways I'll. Do it through horror, I'll just do Sheer horror, Do you guys have a theory about What his job was, because I got really convinced about the fact that he was in the military or special forces when there is a special forces, can be it's because in the book it said. That's always like me to this is an area that is the thing ever patients at the like how somebody could sit insight Bush is for six hours and just wait that it's a special training. Do you agree that well, I usually described as having had like shoulder length hair, so you would have been active military at that time. You have been the military at some point or military busiest bud. During that period of it, that there has been a lot of speculation about his occupation and others, like you know, medical construction painting RIP Realty in any
Greece game, but is there anything you like that? No, no, they also cancel other out for me. Oh really really reach what we try to take a look at their summit ever so many clues tat are out there and there are some that we know are definitely his and her son that died, that we are not sure of like say the homework, the general cluster. So we yes, I said, or the man died at the hands of maps. Are you dont know what we don't know that because now I dont I tend not to focus on those just because you can really go down some, some radicals which machine certainly gone down. I've looked at so many different maps to imagine that had drawn mantle of two different locations and neighbourhoods, but You know that there are certain things like the paint flax or whatever that he left behind, and the idea that he did know a lot about these neighborhoods. I don't think he was military. I would beer more towards somebody who may wanted to be military at some point, security garnish shall, we always say, always look to the heavy man
not sure of like, say the homework, the general cluster, so we work yes so or the mad dog at the hands on maps. Are you dont know what we don't know? If those are his are now I dont. I tend not to focus on those just because you can really go down some. Some radicals, which Michel certainly goddammit please, but couldn't get a sight of the DNA of Afflux event rose, really only forensic evidence that spend any value and it's not been linked any that he left behind and the idea that he did know a lot about these neighborhoods. I don't think terms of like what he's done for living like Paul holes, whose investigator contracts says convinced that he worked unlike landscape, landscape architecture or construction. You said the other, but other investigators failure would be somebody like you now lower class sort of a marginal person, but about the case He would have stood out more in the neighborhood city, proud and dumb. You know he didn't descriptions of suspicious people. I just can't like guys that, were there really five nine in addressing when breakers in every average, looking people so
I have every why's he blended in these kind of metal upper middle class name of sketches. You know we ve gone through. Your a box of like the rancher, your books and everything and everybody in answer to like what he's done for living like Paul holes, whose investigator Contra costs as convinced they worked in, like landscape, landscape architecture or construction. You said the other, but other investigators failure would be somebody like you now lower class sort of a marginal person, but since my stacked add- and this is look at the pictures of him here- I've had it with one or a lot of those pictures them zooming in pictures from that town. All meeting look at that. He was there and you do a lot since that people do like side by side and that's a good way to filter out like the worthless ones, because sketches are really just an hour. I dont think even the more reliable composites from this case are a very limited value. Somebody's interpretation of somebody's description ass, somebody ass an they dont compared.
To each other. That drive me crazy, as I always look at what is needed is the three or four that they usually put up together and it's like these are found, fathers, three different out of say features. This is my stack dad of the hair there's one day. It has like an extremely side part. And then the other guy has fallen chastity on yeah. It's just you. Said you wanted to I school in Sacramento college. Well, I point out of college and secondly, that's how I like to say about where their work was. There were their traces of this crime to people ever talk about. It was still in the air. Why you there or the now it if they just a bad vibes of ashes Sacramento, the executive that was, as I would involve learning are a hundred ninety seven degree letter. Nobody. I never heard anybody talk about that, but in in reading this book, there's it
on part where she, the EAST area, rapists, was operating, and there was. It was three other rapists that were also operating at the same time or re both the early morning, rapers the woolly rapist, the other seven. The sad but were their work was there were their traces of this crime to people ever talk about? It was still Emma born time. Michel tweeted hay was your name Gary and drive a ban in the seventies. You weren't, along with highly who, just like the guiding carrying a man, gets the symbol of. Seventy should be the guiding carry with the Van yeah. That's the seventies in California, yeah wounded, but you moved her vine. When so, did you have a weird? You said some think that everyone's and I've seen a lot of tweets, unlike for as everyone pretty sure they're like we're, coworker older coworkers, the signal our yes, ok, cause. I'm doing that to like I've got a lot of the face. This step, father, Facebook message, yeah sure
pleaded hay was your name Gary and drive a ban in the seventies, you aren't allowed files, which is both a guiding Gary and Van gets the symbol of. Seventy should be the guiding carry with a value, that's the Seventys and California wounded, but you moved her vine when it so did you have a weird you said some. I think that everyone's annexes lotta tweets. Unlike for everyone,
and so eighty six was when my parents were so we were likes so low in my mom's house, which is lagging you recall it cause. I know we didn't lock the doors at night, but my dad. I asked him to remember that he's a key. I remember that when eighty six and that happen is really hard to get a day at the women were like, I wouldn't go home with their ranks. On top of all the other awful things he did, he made the single scene and not forget the way he acted. Romantic, let's all bore a little for the firm Mars. Nothing really happened did not wear that members older brother and I love the parlor book when she talks about how you know D, dna and familiar ancestral dna you know makes Tom. Hanks would be suspended. Based on the discussions. I then she said the the foaming schedule.
Was embodies. That alone is aware, although we- I remember, I'm gonna drop a name here, but we had dinner. She and I had dinner with Steve Martin yeah about what would just issue is beginning work in a book and she was talking about your writing it, and then she is enforced, wrote that He said, oh by the way, not based on any like Hanks could be assessment, but, of course, the shooting, a schedule of both about how you know, D, dna and familiar and central dna you know makes a Tom Hanks would be a suspect based on the discussions. I bet she said the filming schedule of bosom buddies what do you guys have any other questions or about what would just ass. She was beginning work in the book and she was talking about your writing it and then she is enforced, wrote that, but she said, oh by the way.
Somebody that I made I made at the sitting, I go out of my career not to do any cell borders. I really do once all crimes for fifteen years. That's fifteen years of writing. Where is it no endings? Nobody really ever wants to hear those individual. It big there. Okay, for like a five thousand word story in a magazine or something, but as far as a book tv show now they want. They want the ending, and for this to nobody has really been upset with hey, there's, no ending on this thing. I think everybody really wants it to be a part of it. I think I think it's gonna be solved within the next five years. One part of that also. To do it The progression forward, the digital age, social media, things podcasting. This Let your crime, they want us all, then so there is a part of it were. I mean I read that book and then I'm just like, if I could, just as I said earlier and as you know it's that feeling where, since the answer is out there, that there is the possibility it, I think there is an engagement, its lopsidedly lowood gruffly gone into the nobody wants
nobody has really been upset with any there's. No ending on this thing. I think everybody really wants to be a part of it. I think I think it's gonna be solved within the next five years I think, though, also like on a level- and I mean I have no- I I age, social media and part casting people who led to crime. They want us all, then so there is a part of it were I mean I read that book and then I'm just like you know late at night, writing in her daughters, Roman all you know the obsession. I think that these assets out there that there is the I'm just wanting to no more and no more and when it's an unsolved crime. Injustice nobody wants to be a spectator anymore, ensure crime, everybody wants to be averted. Supplant ultimate participant would be just fulfilling in this in your crazy brain in your anxiety, brittle brain that you you can that together, we can all figure this out and that we can all know It's just really bad things.
Failing that is true. It is actually true before we open it up for questions I only knew any new developments or updates you can share or want to with, if, if you dont want to that school, but is our sisters, crime and you know, ups obsesses, understand just wanting to no more and no more and when it's an unsolved crime is just an inn. Brand of China and apparently people used to put China in like these plastic bags. I remember my mamma do that. I remember that the zipper thing yeah yeah I like them and he actually took all the China. We have not done that before, so they put that up ass. If any clue we ve done, something where one of the text that idea why you social media to help please farmers around the countryside stop, and I saw the Avonlea we're we're for people that were of that age, they were in Sacramento than aren't there anymore that our in on the EAST coast or on you know we got we ve got some people.
And a lot of times when you put stuff out there, you know like that, like when you said that people are writing to using my step. That did it. You have to be the case We know you're an area where have you been able counselor, Vila Nova, that's really horrible. I learned since its abuse used daily. You know we got one woman who said that she had encountered in and you know she wasn't I don't think she was like that. You definitely was telling the truth. Whether remember not as another is another matter, but that something that we took her name. We gave it off to the iron and interviewed her in them. He gave it up to one of the detail, that could lead to something, because there could be a police support that noticed the car and then they could trace the car or something like that. That was not in any of our any Michel's three thousand five hundred documents. We did not have that woman came. So that is something that you they would later, but it wasn't in any of our staff. So there's a lot of stuff, falling through the cracks, that's what happened that fingers crossed could leave us
and you know when they. Finally, this the first rapers is probably not his first rape, it's probably not a source of financing. These offenders have years of powerful objective. Like prowling and then burglaries, and you know the hackers series was the obvious candidate. I think as a starting point, but I just don't feel it's the same offender. I think there are too many discrepancies in terms of behaviour and physical description and Clark in Sacramento was identified to burglary Series in Rancho Cordova, which is where the series formally began so that was something that she did doable each aboard, but it wasn't in any of our staff so feel very much like this offender, more so than the ransack or serious. So you know that I'd suggest some origin in that area, which you know, I think geography for me, as is one of the big you no clue. And together with like the the forensics, that the genealogy, I think geography is one of like the very few paths to solve. The starting point, but I just don't feel it's the same offender. I think there are too many discrepancies in terms of behave
ransack or is there s area has isn't a gold is a killer, but in the past, where there are describing the his body than I, We started this fantasy of healing after the salient knowing like the cops, were hot on his tail and then started doing like the biggest losers style ashamed. I am going to change my physical appearance, tat, journeymen, get a little son and, like start doing park or style and exercises in me and like the idea that I was like. Well, that's a possibility now. Yes, maybe you didn't match directly, but what if he did try to change himself well holes as argued that there still fundamentally different body types like once, an indoor morph once an actor morph, but also the ran sacrament confronted Behave, Limburg Conspicuous way consistently the year when confronted just kind of his leg eight hours ago and then with Liberia
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I'll bet out there. You guys moderator, yes, hi, I wonder what he was asking about omens tale. I think that was just a ruse. He would pretend to be a junkie. You would prevent I mean there's no actual physical evidence of an accomplice. He would pretend there was but No evidence to substantiate that there was. I don't feel he had one I would like a classic like I've called the cops kind of their coming, but there's no one really grey. He would talk. Lagging behind anyone whisper back and theirs Are you may remember saying? Oh, it was or was it the like the janitor at the school that saw the two guys in the matching when breakers is that would owe you
now over here. Is your first attacked the victim heard him whispering of some one, and in that instance, you see keep intimated. That was there with his girlfriend, but I think it's just a. There is no evidence that he had any one with him. He was. He was doing different voices. We now he was doing to clench teeth, voice com account and I wonder what he was also had a Wednesday. I think that was just a ruse. He would pretend a junkie you pretend to be I mentally ill. You pretend you would adopt like Mexico, accents and german accents and but now I argues, didn't ransack or do that when he first when the coffers stopped him in the act of eagerly Oki accident. Well, I don't
now that he was here because it gets consistently described as having had that Axa did he didn't Haiti and pretend to have an accomplice on numerous occasions as an actor yeah the painters from his play, my back to an end, and I say we look at everyone who didn't get personnel when they desire that the he like three characters right there. So I was Louis Michel wage levels and that is very chatter, Soria leisure. I was working with national prior suit of books, solved, so we d with corresponded sense: saving twenty eleven,
We were sort of like investigative partners I mean she would share leads with. May I would surely with her and I saw her and three or four times a month and in Europe that was shocking to me. She was an ill. Wasn't it it was a far this thing for my line, so is very difficult for me to process, and I think that the research a blueprint in terms of how she wanted to structured by it. It was, social media and we want- and it was just you know we had some other projects if we really want to do, but she cheap just she stopped. Everything is that I want to focus on this issue, or through that, and also I mean you- I mean there is the first thing I thought of it. I knew everybody else would be thinking of lobbies, I think a patent and give Alice. I thought the first thing I thought of this fucking guy one, and then I thought this guy- and I was I going to do anything I can do no matter what you do everything I can to get this outcasts. I'd want someone to do that
for these two reasons why I want somebody to do that for me, if I hadn't thought was doing it and to I constantly was with egging hurrah to finish the book as we had other projects, anyone we were doing a podcast called the shadow pulp, radio, our which was, like every sentence on right. I'm I look at it when I look at it again among damn, that's not good enough, and then I go back and I try to make good, not just because Then we were doing the work we did a panel, it's out by southwest call, saw them out of social media. We want it was just you know we had some other projects if we really want to do, but she cheap just she stopped. Everything is that I want to focus on this that we would go to lunch once a month and then she would talk about without the case, and I took my visas, everything, but you know it was. It was good to have something to do. You know we had all this stuff. There is like arrival, but what do we do with this? how it and the idea that you know she didn't write about everything
She wasn't ever going to write about every crime. That's a lot, forty nine rates at twelve murders, at least, but we weren't going to write in her voice that couldn't happen because she said and she such an intimidating writer too, because I didn't write it all myself. While we are working on it, then when I went to write every sentence. I write. I looked. I look at it when I look at their government. Damn that's not good enough, and then I go back and I try to make good not just because I just worked on a book when that, when this woman was so good at two things that I thought I used to be a good combination of which was a good writer and a good researcher, was honestly. I think she was the best monitor crime and the success of the book is bitter sweet in her absence, and once this offender is identify mean that excitement will be kind of tempered by the fact that Michel never learn his identity yeah it. It really it was really terrifying to and she died because it you know, grief
feels like tear. It feels, like fear, then also yeah, knowing that this was a sin that she was so obsessed with, and so focused on answered Tom, topped agreeable to me this beneficial, so I be know- I didn't have that determine moment that you had. I was the just of to everyone. I could her publisher these guys. Could somebody help me finish? Man? book and- and I decided very early on when I read cause- she would have me read early chapters that I knew immediately oh there's no way we can pick up the writing and finish it, so it where it ends, because if we had picked it up, you would have very clearly. Oh that's! Where Michel stop running a match for these guys, she began figure out where clap and stop playing and this kid with a day of ukulele training. But you know I think I can pick out the exact now. So you know end yeah, so that that the end, as also is very bitter sweet for me because having
done is another thing where that's another part of her that's kind of gone like in a very sick way, not having look down on us working. I met. She was still here and that if he is caught, yeah that'll be very beneficial? but then I be another part of her gone and is so there's at There was a lot of push pull for me that but then finding that the letter to the old man, which is the quota, The march it was almost like holy shit. This is so perfect that is actually taught you know all this number is done and she's gone and she's, really speaking, another place. It is a very serious issue and interrupted arc. It was so Nicky less than I saw that it was almost pressure. Yet we were so happy that we found that in any. If you wanna mean heartbroken, but on a three episode, podcast about the booking, downloader anywhere you get podcast, but her. You know there are recordings in interviews with her where she's talking about the process of writing the book and invest com you can hear her voice and how she you know what would try
Does that mean she was a very very unique personality, and so, if you, if you want to listen to you in here her voice for real. It's on those. On that three episode podcast sets out there but yeah. It is You know this again to quit. Call James, alright, there's no such thing as closure piano closure I remember when you sent me the Oak Park chapter, and I was really scared to read it, because it's that thing of any one of your friends when they're like you want to read my scrapping like sure o k, inner mainly on oh, I get it you, you don't want it to be you and anyway I read it and- and I just couldn't stop sobbing when it was over, because it was that using thing of someone is gone, but they have left this
amazing body of work that actually, like I went into her life. I went into her teenage bedroom. You know I mean and with her as the guide cat couldn't stop thinking about what you know like her mom reading that chapter, I'm everything about that was just so sucking me. Never sent that it was just like thank God, and then I remember texting you and being like. What's going to happen with the book, and I wanted to say like do you want me to help you, but I really did not want to say that an EU tax it back like we ve, got these great guys like great Great Great Fairfax, young women. I didn't want to be involved. I knew that I couldn't because it was hard enough for me to read. It were writings Langen, I need I slammed, we are voting as again. We would send patent staff and we knew tat need a times a patent with them in their work. There were a couple months when you, especially
through the summer. I can do anything over the summer. Is ours was at school, but I also I couldn't sit down and read it because I would read le pages and I would lose my shit and cause it because her voice was right there. She was right there like. I wondered if there was one time I was a vision, my parents, this back merging it down in the base my dad's office and I'm reading and I wanted to go upstairs there. Second, I wanted to go further and tell her that one person because in my mind she just right up. There goes your voices right there and I just Thomas and then all of a hit me all over again like so I just you know it was a very, very hard difficult process. But also it now, there's it's like there is this living document. It there's a there's something very alive about this book and very you know, sometimes when you're writing you, you wanna be fancy. You want to put something on and be like everyone's gonna love, this great idea and actually distances you.
She is right. Fucking there on that page, so it's late, there is a magic to there's lots of people. Talk about writing books all the time. The fact that there is so much it such an amazing book ended. It does exist like it's, not the things she wanted to get done right. That's yachts, kind of incredible to move Syria is right about that. That's how long the guys from that? It's not in tat really we'll start telling people, even if that's what you're, just everybody did all that work.
The town hall on which that gentleman spoke up actually took place before these dear rapists began, attack and couples. So he wouldn t actually said I would protect my wife, I he was just getting into it with the with the cops that town Hall took place before the at the media black eye was lifted, sow whom I d d, so that that was in. I think November. A seventy six in that couple was attacked ethic and may of seventy seven. So with some months later, you guys think it was a coincidence. I think I'd Michel believe it maybe by next. That's it I'm sorry, but I'm only going up when she first that information told me she thought it was specifically, but she did she know all the details ran in that situation, mademoiselle, oh my god, he has great story. Well, then you get when you get a magnifying glass, you start looking becomes even Abdul you're looking for the shooter on the grassy. No, you listen. Examples in ITALY has told- and you know like you, how this apocryphal version of the story-
only when you sort of seed files, you realize that while that was actually another blind alley, you know it's what these guys say, always the files it's one of their catchphrase. The aside, I always say, which is the murderer- was that that exact picture now, as you in a picture for everybody which was to join you guys, do research, we killed all Michel, they wrote a section in the back, the third section and is it by a Billy Jensen. Nepal Haines, were they talk about geographic, profiling and dna, and then I wrote a very brief afterward by says by me, but the book is all her writing. We didn't, add or there's even like than you know. This is these diseases from notes that you know but it's not your our finger printing on any other stoppage writing
I do now when they reconstruct, like an old reconstructed, silent movie- and I don't have all the footage and they use stills is same principle: yes, so there there were parts in their where there was a part. Them is missing that we would go into her in her we're going to hurt you males and even her iii males were per weapons were written in a way that are not just like the regular slab rights in Emma like you would I do that written it away? The really great you know there was like. Oh, we can begin to put that over here, and it was very much that puts you know she wasn't running is linearly. She was very much writing it in these chapters and it was a matter of how we going to put the chapters together to make it cohesive, and then you no feeling in those blanks with what she had, and she certainly have We had access to work and vision That word at the very top talking about that right now they did there's a lot of shit up in the air, but I dont really. Ro our it's in the stage. I can't really talk about that. So yeah, yes,
I am raising Zodiac wrath too widely ginger reviewing your whole reported that assertion that decided to allow Wyoming your approach it because you are a professional. You ve been doing this professionally. She do keep that distant for me, think with Michel. Unfortunately, not to sure more, but I don't think she successfully avoided being written pulled in by this and the very end. You know there was a lot of sleeplessness and- and you know I mean it, didn't it didn't maker. She was still very much of a mom and a wife in it and a friend, but this the further she got into this. It was, it was clear that she had a real shot: shouted solving this and that can be a that can be some fatal bait I can really pull you in some depth at you,
take it yourself back out of you know with me: it's it's really a numbers game theirs, thousand murders in America, five thousand go unsolved, which has an insane number when you think about it. So that means is two hundred fifteen thousand murders that are unsolved since nineteen eighty, I can't I can't get obsessed with just one out on constantly working, I'm working twenty or twenty five right. I would even anxious at a small drop in the market. I was just surrender to my obsessions, I'm not a very pragmatic, that's a very graceful input that will be one more question. Social media We shall recently has risen laundry. Is there any said, another definitely
definitely is. I work a lot and I've written a lot of stories about that about regular people's right to solve solve crimes. The There's a there's, a cycle websites which some of you might now you can go on and on people are discussing crimes. You can go on. Certainly Facebook alot of people will discuss certain kinds of Facebook expert groups, the biggest thing that you have to and also read it, the biggest have to do is not name names. If you dont know names, then than you're, ok, it's when you start naming names were saying it's the one about this guy syndrome, where you got what about this guy and that you have a link to a facebook profile. That's where you get into trouble. So I really do think that underpin proponent of crowd solving and I think that that he can't work as long as it's it's done, the right way and one that is just ensure that you name it. Hey Rather, I haven't read it yeah
John reserves to bridge they re during the day at a coffee shop you arena, ran in a day, don't read it, and I am not saying that as such hyperbole do. If, if you're, if that's how you I would add: I've had friends you have read. Mean said ice had to separating it. My waited till the daytime, this the audio buck, I've had friends make the mistake of listening to it alone at night. That is a huge mistake. Read it when you're out hiking in the sunshine, friends and dogs around but yeah, I read in the daytime two minutes I would bear. I listen to it and doing it the day and hiking in it, it makes everything surreal. It's the same thing like lit listening to what was playing on the radio in your driving. The same like it makes everything would feel like like David Lynch Movie Man
reading. Is David really well, that's where living word living in a badly written David Bowe who we were only one of the good ones were in ITALY, an empire fiery widow, maggot, don't name names out. His has a fan girl along have Gambro. Shall how much you guys finishing this block? All three of you, I know it's hard because it's you know an ending, adjust it such a lovely thing to have I it's on my native stand, it's in my phone and its I'm gonna read and reread it constantly and adjust. It means a lot that you guys finnish menu its heart,
They demonstrate the need for an answer. You, Georgia, hard starting carrying Kilgour of my favorite down you. There emerged how many murders are here tonight. Well, sir, I bet, but the entire Portland crowd were murdered knows who was murdered. Sprays. Let's give one more random applies for our neighbour billion, all the things tat. It was a pleasure to have you guys
Transcript generated on 2020-01-04.