This week, crime journalist Billy Jensen joins Georgia and Karen for a Golden State Killer case update AND THEN PAUL HOLES SHOWS UP!!!
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
This is exactly right. Ok. Well, then, maybe we should start the spare special episode. This is the most special episode welcome see when I murder, the podcast, where we go to a studio that we never go to and record. There were feels really weird professional, there's, no cats. We're wearing headphones. It is here that we have special gas is special gas. Today are all when it we had gas snarl liar. I think Guy Brandons guess. Her
and our gas today has been a gas which is. To happen now it is, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Mr Billy Johnson, hello, ladies I don't know all you murdering us out there. I think for being here. This is a special lacks is especially guys are deaf play still catlett its special, because it's the first one were recording back from our european twenty eighteen european tour, that's right, which has very exciting choirs here we left the backdoor up. That's much we're not used or according to a studio. Doors are open. Thanks, ok beings, so we're back you're. Back from Europe. We have jet lag jet lag. Georgia has I called repeat everything you say, but that the butter fun part is this. Is we finally get?
The episode where we like recap and go back over the gold, stay killer, case arrest and. Then we have a very special Collen guest yeah, surprise re yeah. We came in Spain it's a surprise, surprise I'll keep us am. I might I might when we introduce a mellow iron it was a him. Now there Paul. I wanted it to be garral daily dammit, whereas Erika huh now, while Billy. What here since this is your show, why Would you what is the foremost kind of update piece of information case since I guess, since the press conferences when we last October, there is not one thing is that this guy really didn't have a lot of friends. He was not knowing what I've did is
it was so strange when it that assumes it happened, and you guys are some of the first that I was talking to when it was happening. When I found out at one o clock in the morning and in the end, the bed in Chicago afloat, switched in my head, and it was all about. Ok, everything went away. Everything about the the home evidence of the you know his shoe patterns and and all that that all went away. It was all about build a timeline and it was all about what other crimes has he done. So I've been reaching out and try anybody that might know this guy to build the time, one of where he's been and then also what other crimes, and that has been said that he could be involved with, and You know, there's not a lot of people that were friendly with him. We already. We know from the people and Exeter that he was kind of he very much himself in the police force. Everybody would choke around pal around that. He was kind of like very serious, very serious and universal
and attract down his navy people. I just can't you know, can and all the people in the young, in the the sack police department, they're trying to track down all these people, one of the things that I've been doing just VIII, a twitter and via a couple face web pages that I had launched when the book started is having anybody reach out to me before it happened before he was caught. I had two people reach out to me and say that they were actually they encountered him at one point and one woman said that he broke your house whose right around the same time period, he saw that He was there and saw and heard that they were somebody else in there and he decided not to do anything because it sounded like Peter really. Somebody was in the house and he just said to her. You really need it shared screen door now. So I had that information I said well. Can I give that to the police because it did you file, police ports said yes, I did or sexual. There might be something in that police reports, as we had. None of it me and Paul Haines looked in the in Michel's hard drive, the we had
None of that so we said well. Maybe they don't know about it either, maybe to slit under the ad are: maybe there might be something now- that our neighbour saw this kind of car and then it could lead to something. So that was like three weeks before he was caught at it had nothing to do with it, because we all know what happened. But since I got I've gotten a couple of tweets at me, talk to people an end and interviewed them and realise that this guy very well might have attack people before he started when have everyone is kind of there's no way. He started at thirty years old that ran yeah and he you know it's a very easy narrative and it's a very convey.
It narrative to say. Ok, he started as the ransacked he Bobby started as a paper. Then he started going at a people's houses in ransacking. Then he decided to go on, and rape re people inside the houses, then rape person with a couple and then ended up killing that that's makes sense to people because there's that escalation, but what if he was attacking people before that. A guy texted me and we ve got this conversation. I talked to him every day now and his mother was attacked on the street was hit her mother was tacked on the street and he showed her. You know it. He was, she was raped and it was the possible murder is attempted murder. He actually do over her with his well. Wait. Sorry was this advice area now. This was an invite Alia, but this was it. I know it is annoying to exactly say we're about it, but it was in a town that he's been it and it was before everything it happen that we knew about, but has around the time of the ransacked actually secular right before it
and she had never seen they never solved it. They know her had any. We only had one suspect, but he didn't pan out her she's had tons of surgeries. Now it's really a feminine her, and she he showed her the M the picture and she started to shake and really thinks that she had a hundred percent idea on this guy man. Now that could be at all. I want to mention names, names or anything like that, so you know I hooked him up at the d a I do. I want to know whether it was we're not I just want. I want to get this guy justice, because it's horrible story here and I'm gonna get it out there and if it wasn't him, it was obviously somebody else from grim and try and work on that whether they kept the rape kit is the question because we know that sacrament threw away. The rape gets, thank God for Paul cut costs that they kept those risk because they use just throw stuff away because
such limitations was up, so I ve been thinking a lot about the statue limitations from this case. These, currently all these cases in the end, then throwing about rape kits away because of stature limit, actions and how now we're all testing these old backlog, great kits and the Euro area What's to fucking strangle the statue limitations. I wonder if there's someone out there are there some way we can make it so that if you hadn't tested it before that statue limitations was up, you know it can be ended. Somehow, because it's not on you that if a second rate kit wasn't tested and run through the system, yeah, the Let's, not the normal rules should apply right. Has the normal rules. Apply right because the due diligence wasn't on yeah yeah yeah. I mean the fact we'd. We now know that now that the floodgates are open and we ve been scream from the rooftops at me we don't familial dna and doing it. This way right, while I get into by the fact that that there still rape gets that haven't been tested and now they ve been tested, and they
profiles have been made, but are what are they do with those profiles and where they put an end. Its such is the biggest travesty for me, and american justice system is that you know the trauma that somebody goes through from a sexual assault and then the trauma that you have to go through for it actually telling somebody and then, on top of that going through, exam and then having somebody just put it in a locker for years and years, not only that and that person's justice. But it's the next person. Rise in x, woman or the next males justice. So you know that every one of those rate kitchen, running through familiar right now, in my opinion, and also for the other recently actually just talked about this and some city. We were on the on the tour because it also is keeping free somebody who should not be free? That's it's lobby, the the justice should be executed on that rape as because that that idea that this all this happen, but you know it's not a priority. It doesn't matter that lunch words like it. Absolutely should be just as much of a priority
as murder cry. I mean not day idea that that that that has somehow you know that the the way people look at it is like it's a lesser crime. Ray word that its less than anything that's kind of the cool part about this story really coming to the fore so much as like people hearing fifty rate in the Senate Has- and I think it's that you know it's It was a time where it was ok calm down. It's not that big right. Yet I want no idea and think about how many we still hear so much about how many sexual assaults are not reported re about how many such reports were not reported back of the area and the EU. The police officers- and we ve talked about this up certain police officers that don't, but you are not good with actual sexual assaults, actually prior right when they were being reported. Yeah there's no training. There was no is the idea of sensitivity. Training was a joke right and yes, rights, cats and as such, I can thing here also it that makes me think of the fact that its
now that bone chilling reveal that he was a policeman. In Rangoon, then you think what? If that fact guy was right that came to your house at all. You are attacked, I mean like the it. It opens that door that it's just like whore after horror with this but this case, but like the idea that he was a person that that had a that much authority in power as an all policemen and that he was still living. This double life is, is a once again this whole case is so cinematic Lee Dramatic, saying it's almost to over the time it's over. The top. Do you, as is the strange wife coming forward Our she, not speaking. She is not speaking now. Neither none nor in either his body to the outside of those sitting? Still gotta cops or not? We can. We can talk about that we can push We are surprised guessed right with me. You know
No one will yet we might as well call him now that you know so. I had the opportunity he was going to come. I'm gone anyway. We were doing in crime kind as COMECON for crime it was in Nashville. We were, We had to serve presentations about the gun, stay killer, which we had it. Clearly tear up. We do, and I really wanted to you Know- and we move at the first one is going to be just a deep, diving, p evidence and me and Paul Haynes were going to go through more going to do this we're gonna say like you know what about this peace evidence now. That's junk in this looks like the best sketch and everything that went to help it was gonna, be in a small room. They said now we gotta move you. The bigger yeah, so we're going look at is like two thousand five hundred people in this room, and I wanted to give Paul his do. You know, because Paul didn't get to speak at the press conference and it was just sort of leaking out that that he was the guy that really solve this thing.
Paul was in Nepal very much in a because we were talking about the book and we were there because it was for Michel's book in Nepal would say that she he what he felt that Michel was his partner. So you know it made sense for him to I'm out. So we brought him out and it was like Beatlemania it was. It was like nothing you there was, he gets us, innovation and then, after everybody is trying to take selfies with many camp. He can't walk five feet robbing, and you know it me- smile just because, in the reason why I was very upset that they didn't put him or put anybody else of the room. Investigators him in the trenches at the press conference? They wouldn't put him in spring. Is that what I want? the sea is inter crime when you workin true crime for so long, the biggest comes to visit there, so many superveillance we'll get around it by Superveillance, Manson, Bundy, Gacy, Dahmer name the superheroes and
can't you know you might say John Walter. You might say I know that this person or that person or maybe like a local policeman, but we don't put them out there, and you know I was thinking about pause like if we're get a superhero out of any of this. It's gonna be Paul and Paul is gonna, be somebody that idiot listen if he's gonna have the, opera holes hashtag in any idea, not start the lad start, I know not. Now I think I started if you know, if he's gonna be a heart throbbed its then so, be it, because what I want is I want a little kid to beat seeing the screen the way that they did back in the day when they would see Jack what or an FBI guys up on the screen say I want to be like that yeah or a little girl, seeing your aircraft or or Carol Daily, be like. I want it,
like hell, yeah and those are the heroes that we need to be pushing in front of the camera. Just because we have such this imbalance in this explosion that we see a mature crime- and you know the kind of people that will take this skin outward Nicholas. Funny hashtag power, and is it for good guess exactly and if it puts it out there- and then you know this case in the legacy of this case- is all about not only solving this case but solving so many other cases and we ve already seen it. The floodgates are open. We ve already seen cases are going down in their so many cases now that we can solve. Based on this one, and thank God it was a big Lonnie ass. It was if it was a smaller want or if it was a sort of nebulous one, you might get people say Oh, you know when we had that a little bit where people saying this privacy laws there's this or that yeah, but nobody is really
bending this guy rang offending. You know someone they had at least fifty rapes and twelve murders. I want to talk about this left. Should we bring out areas to s labelling of rail and that you know it will hear here's what I was thinking. You know he he needs a heap. He he is the superhero of this story, and we were gonna happen. The phone by. Now that the airlines are bad doors open, oh no, religious, somewhere, Billy stepped out. Oh, no, You got that policies on the building airlines? Hugging errors in the building.
I thought Billy just walked out the podcast. You got her servants, but I'm, oh, my Ladies and gentlemen, its portals I heard about arrive hype pause belly thanks for for your willing riding Sacramento hitting him on his head? a long night. Oh my god, This is a surprise to care and I knew is happening, but I'm still, you knew is hot, oh yeah. I really do not think there is a huge Like no surprises, ok can I just say this amount of funds. Bottles first of all, knock. You heard that, but I did not start the hot for holes hashtag. That was not so my style now, but as we were just saying I,
That's a lot of this excitement and we were just talking about like crime hon stuff, I think, Excitement is kind of like an overly simplistic way of kind of giving you like a ticker tape parade Well, you can't do anymore like we're doing its social media Tyler doing it murdering style, but, like you know you the light housekeeper for decades. On a case that day should have, or You know what it for whatever reason ended up, not getting salt for so long and was so horrible and, like we ve, talked about it like what, Can you talk about it on that idea? so where you know every single fact. You know every single path legacy you seem as passionate as us you're, not detached from an you give like Michel who, as you know, one of us so much credit, which is mean so much to us, will end like one the cameras weren't on when she
I came to you, you welcomed her with open. Our I mean you just could not have done it better. So I think there's. A lot of this is stupid. Like it's very stupid, I M very honey and salient fun way. It just saying it's just a humongous. Thank you. You know it's been. It's been just a surreal experience yet tell about Syria. Why, after the press conference when the angel was announced, the you know I I had with Jane arson and Debbie Domingo. They had convinced me to go to crime con about a month prior ends up as we are marking down with the annual. I don't think there's any way. I'd be able to make it out to Nashville had no idea what I was walking and Anna was great, but my first I guess expire and was ass, walking in the hall way- and it was late at night on a Thursday evening in this mother and daughter, pass me by damn painting tension to them and also to hear this law,
look around in there looking at me and that's the first time ever been recognized by somebody. I have no idea for the corset x two days. It was amazing in terms of all these murders, Minos coming up to me and getting pictures I didn't, have a twitter account My wife, friends role is that it saying hey, pose getting pictures and all these women were, as he wrote in his will, and can we talk about? Second, has, first of all the sincere apologies to missus holes. All of this is so out of control. Is she does she like it? Is she passed like? Is no, she she's been great sport about it. Ok, can you know she's the one that's actually watching and letting me no cause. I added I have some afraid to go on and Google myself, because I don't want to see what exactly is out there, but she's she's a downright diplomatic, but you know that
in time she don't know, what's going on at a crime con either and then so I get the phone call it's going what is going on and made a family man like so many have eyes, but it's like ninety percent women and also ninety percent women who have been watching you be it, fucking head on these shows four year yeah, you know. What's in the spring, I was from ten years. I know I'm learning that what gets out there on the internet stays out there for ever. It's for it is less than since I've gotten a twitter account. It's been one of those sitting as well by but probably posted a couple things going. What did I say we outright than a crime? I guess we had a couple friends. You are there that was the most exciting I was like the my friend Katy Rife was rapporteur for the eighty club was there and I was like you need to talk
every single thing that happens, because she was in the room too, and she was just like the whole room, one insane and then I got the report for Billy also when it was over, but it was that it was because I was I just wanted to be what we thought it you do. And what we wanted to see at the news com for an hour or two carnivores caress conference. We wanted to see which is like you. I know that international that now, in the background, seeing you there, you should just get up there well, you know at crime con when, when Billy pulled me out onto the stage that, with such a humbling experience an yes in many ways, I've been the face of the investigation, but really I think everybody was applauding everybody- that's bought in the investigation. So that's that's the thing that needs get out there and tatters, there's an men and women that are still actively investigating the case. They have been on this case for in some instances decades and they aren't they dont have the opportunity.
Have in order to be able to come out and be a public figure at this point, so you know, I think that applause I mean it was its satellite just Jill when I gotta, because I never thought I'd be. You know in front of that many people, dancing ovation, but again I think that was innovation for the team. Apps, I'm sorry, that's right! Now, I'm sitting right next to him. Paul has goosebumps right now so excited. I was, as you both know this and as they set in, press conference or whatever. But this doesn't happen that off the idea, This happened. We didn't apply the solving of a case that rejecting all of it took. It was just like Tell us like the phone call that you that the DNA was a match, can you I bet that was insane and they so that that was it was. I was out estate Minos, shopping for a house,
in the process of moving out of California and at a restaurant it appear change flag that was applied, make a lot of my off advent, use, estimate chicken so had just finished eating, and I got a call from who turn a Turk Campbell whose the investigators from sacramental, DA's office and eyes. I see that he's calling and we, had the Angelo under surveillance. So I knew ok, this cause and important phone call I go out and Turks as ok, you can't tell that for care and anxiety and he said they that the initial dna results as we had gotten a surplus, a sample sack s our continent, a surplus, a sample from the actual came back and though it's up its with low low profile, which means it was not a complete dna profile, but the lab is really excited with what they see
and began. I, with my background of saying what exactly do they have and once he told me I knew it was a guy and then I walk back in and we're getting our fortune cookies, my wife is opening up her Forging Fuegian all excited by what its narrow ass. If I were to forging an you literally in truly can't tell your wife like huge, that's a secretly. You have to tell you why I told her she she read it on my face. Yes, why didn't I showing I wasn't going to tell her in the restaurant as I knew what the reaction would be on trying to not tell her and she knew who had called next thing. You know since, like pushing me to know what's going on, and you still owe that Kiev chain sixty to show that there are also the manager from happy at TAT were made. Get mouth, watering sees all recipes and pre measured ingredients delivered right to your door with hello, fresh America's number one meal kid they make.
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billion, I communicated believe it or not. We had not met or even communicated up until about a couple months ago now, so that was one of those things in this case, where She is somebody that deserves so much credit for the work she did with the victims up in Sacramento and, if you ever got to see her reports. It was cutting edge in turn. Of recording all the victim ology, not only the circumstances of what happened, you know what the offender did, what he said gave us insight into who this guy was, but also who the victims were, and that's barium you're dealing with a fantasy motivated type of crime, social, he did an amazing job and I always was like Icloud, the citizen, amazing woman, in terms of what she was doing back the nineteen seventies and then I finally got to talk to her on the phone once you know some of the media attention was coming out before we had even meal identify the actual as being a person, and then
the words I got to meet or a person for the first time. Those great experience now she sees me as a mainly I just re watch t I do she special to do than before. The arrest after the result was that colleagues, there still more than tat, we don't know it's unanswered. Questions have it's called unanswered questions the golden secular there's more to come, but I mean it's really fascinating. The the like you're saying prehensile job that she did, but also just like she's just so on points to this day. In the end. Then back then, when you see those pictures- and you see the video of her and light- be polite her, but her dumpy, polite speech and all that stuff. For you just like this, she So then one of a handful of women in that Sacramento carrier victim prattle. They advocate just across the country. I think about how many sexual assaults that had happened. I didn't have a Carol Daily that Bulgaria and what, with what she was doing, like you said, was so groundbreaking one. I believe she was
the first female assigned to investigations for sack sheriff's office so that you know that she was cutting edge. She blaze a trail yan. Seventy sacked, It's very cold I like to see is kind of like that, one of those lights that comes up in the story to- and you know she said- we should hear from her more bank. That makes me that makes me to ask a couple of specific questions. You probably can answer MR powers, but you probably can about that. I'm speaking of her speaking, The town halls was, ie there at any of them. Do you know you know the That is something that I think we're still trying to figure out Carol has saved a memory of one of them I am standing up. And speaking in front of the town Hall and he does him and his wife do become victims hide or on now her memory?
has somewhat changed over time it. What you would expect after four years, so that it's going to be one of those questions ass to was he in the audience, saw this this man whom Andy side it. I will show you who I am, how dare you speak again? what I am doing which I believe absolutely This offender would do is very vindictive if some of the cases that involve males were selected based on who the mails were and what they had done to him, either directly or indirectly, which under of those victims. At this point I dont Know- and he very well could be in other town hall meetings, but right now it's at speculation, but does make sense with who he is. Do you think said so? Does that mean that he might have actually down some of the victims farce?
I know you can't answer any other. Well, the reality is, as I dont know, and that's one of the big questions that I have is you I always marching down in investigating this case. I truly felt that this, the victim selection. Multi modal there are victims that he actually just followed home their verdict. Is that why always out prowling a neighborhood re humbled across it lacks a certain neighbourhood and accelerate the absolutely it's a neighborhood that is conducive to him and he had a lot of potential you can choose any neighbourhood and find a victim answer in many ways he may have employed that strategy where he goes. I know how to get in how to get out of this neighbourhood. They're all single story houses. I don't have to worry about witnesses in the second, floor. Seeing me hopping fences, so very possible. He could have just chosen a neighborhood and then found somebody that met his criteria and the operative he presented itself, but I do
it is possible that he has had interaction with some of these victims ahead of time, both females, an males, and that was one of the things I was trying to do. In particular, try to ident I the males if there was maybe a business setting or some other type of sporting activity that I could have enter interfaced with at some point having Jane, says the story about how during the attack he said, you look really good at the O club and he didn't use that term officers. Club he said you had to be a key. She thought he was deafening the military because whether he had seen her the offices club or not, but the fact that he used the term o club meant that he was in the military, She wondered if he may have seen her at some point. In the end we did see. You know this. This offender was very much into trying to put the victims on edge and he would look at the victims
Why styles and make comments to try to make them think that seen them or they knew him in the San Ramon attack heap. He tells that victim I've seen you at the lake well on her driveway was a boat. No it's it's sort of one of those things he sprite enough to go occasionally bend to the lake at some point in so many use out against, or just kind of get her on edge willing at that might taking my sister about it is my sister can't deal with any true crime anything, but she was asking questions and I'm like ok but I'll answer this for you, but then you're gonna know, but she was saying it doesn't make sense why the victims, call the police. I'm like. Ok, I'm about to tell you something you're not going to like we're going. Are you up what the way he would wait there and they would dead, silent right. They would think he was gone, they would move and then he would threaten them again like that idea. So the
would end up just laying their legs stock. Still till the morning came up. He was still there said: he'd have hours of getaway, it's it's so like devious Lee Brilliant that way of keeping that timeframe so that he is has so much time to get as far away as you can absolutely and an impact and attack number thirteen up in Sacramento. You have mother and daughter, laying side by side in the bed, and he was somebody that was able to move through the house silently. That's one of the issues at the victims were commenting on at a certain point. It's been quiet for a long time, and so the mother asked the daughter: are you ok and the daughter, spawns army and suddenly pushes down on the bed right next to the mothers, had that's what so. I think that that is what is so that drives us. This case is what it wasn't just about rape for him. It was and murder it it's so much more like up ahead. Fuck,
absolutely interest conniving and cunning and terror. I hair tat uses views a psychological sadist, so his big thing was the fear he was instilling in the victims. So we, when you re did the actual sexual assaults? Indeed they did, three. You know some of the sexual assaults almost styled like a consensual type of interaction where he had obviously been fantasizing about that female. Then you have some the sexual assaults were much more violent, but many of the victims were com, hunting and terms especially later on in Eastern Europe is phase. He did not seem to be getting what he wanted from the sex and that's when you start to see this, you know he's feeling in only he needs more and then down in the first attack on Galina Santa Barbara, when he's got them separated and back
on the to the male and female victims. He's pacing back and forth. Saying I'm going to kill him, I'm going to kill him this time, I'm going to kill him. He obviously realize he had to take the up to satisfy their dinner compulsion and then in all the Galina attacks, he fails because the victims fight back so you it is interesting, and in that yes, you can make that that argument, most certainly in the first two, which were within a few months of each other right at the end of eighteen. Seventy nine with, though we. What could Naa double homicide in the victims end up running away from him, and then he has to bail and then gets it, and you know that b I agent chases them its later with doktor, often Doktor Manning Doktor Oppermint slips his bindings and gets up and and and charges em and get shot he's killed and he goes over and shoots Doktor Manny, and then a year and a half later he's back in and basically the same area with that.
Very Domingo, Gregory Sanchez and he gets into a physical fight with Gregory Sanchez. It doesn't go the way he wants, but he D, as leave dna evidence in that seen, so he at least got to the point. Where he's leaving dna evidence and was the don't. You worry double shooting before all of those martyr That was a February. Seventy eight! Yes, it was do you think it could have been, because there is the top it that way, could have been a thing where maybe the guy I recognized him- or there is some reason why he had to shoot a couple that maybe the it was accidental being forced to murder and then suddenly he's got a taste for order in a way that he hasn't before well, I think You look at the entirety. The serious, because right now really is looking like. The Angelo is also the bicycle. Iran's array- and you do have the homicide Claude smelling so
He has a taste of of of murder. At that point, the Missouri case, the predominant theory right. I was Missouri is bright and Katy wrought, walk in their dog, Brian, being a military police officer known to have an aggressive personality. They stumble across a guy, that's out, prowling Brian puts his cop had on confronts the guy. Possibly chases the guy. Until the guide decides he's gonna catch me impose a gun, but she's done twice by fire sides snowing shit that you have the rod Miller. Can I am a kid who chased him and then the cop, I know a lot about the YAP, so in this particular instance it it. It may have been even those most likely, a defence. Type shooting you know he has power
control over those victims. He took their lives. He made that decision and that's what this guy is all about, and I think also- and we know that he changed tack again when somebody you know, even though he didn't know he knew he almost got caught and then he'd be moved. I moved areas you didn't attack in that area. Again he was almost one of his signatures was his not only his ability to escape really and his but he took to know all the different escape routes which leads me to believe that Maybe one of those escape routes when he was walking around when he was prowling, was whipping out his badge when he did have the best when we get the badge and saying oh, no, I'm just families officer using the police vernacular. You know he knew all these different ways. The reason why he chose that neighbourhood is because he grew up. Not initially in that exact neighbourhood, but he grew up near that neighbourhood and branch or Cordova, and he knew that that we all of those escape routes? You now and I think, that's very
such were in when, when something went south for him, he would say I've gotta go someplace else and what it things that we talk. I met this with an investigator involved in the case who we both know where I won't mention his name. It isn't the spotlight, but he was saying how you know I was talking before about this. Other case that somebody had told me about. The sun had told me about this, his mom and is Mambre what might have been one of his victims, but it was early on in the case in the that's it you're told me in a we ve seen this guy at his best. We saw him when he got away with fifty rapes and twelve murders. We didn't see him in the minor leaks, we didn't see him when he wished coming up and he was making mistakes really. We don't really have that, and you know what he was doing or potentially doing or that when he was even a teenager what he was doing it that's what so I'm trying to do is create that time line to figure out. How did he ever go to summer camp? Did he ever gonna on a work trapper, whatever divert incur
Rio when using his dad did he ever go often say you know any follows that he might ahead in the in the Navy any of those those deals. You know what he might have done. You now gone on vacation and said: I'm going for a walk, and then what did he do? That here? keep me there's so much that's out there and we really didn't know what he was doing before. He really got it because he became an expert in doing what he was doing though I would say if I say he was in the minor leagues of icily ransack or was not a very good burger. Struggle to get inside house, even though he did get in many many houses. He was conscious, we being seen I buy neighbours by victims and when you look at after that series stop? Six months later now you have somebody who all of a sudden has more at scale sets being able to break inside houses. Nobody see Z steer a rapist in these areas.
It is now doing everything it can from God. From being seen even by the victims by wearing a mass shrine flashlights in their eyes, even even with those precautions he's telling the victims, don't look at me or I'll kill you. He recognized in by Sally of he made him Stake- he left a trail and he changed. He learned and that's the evolution of the Angelo, and he also changed so much that he was a cop and exeter, and he sees that may now. My probably need to leave exit, her someone might recognize me and then it goes up. Maybe he saw that you know we're doing the newspaper archive searches, you see the add for hay, Aubert's looking for police, please officers. He sees that because of their size, I'm going back to my hometown and do it and was he, He was a carbon exeter. Was he heavy like as I said earlier and soccer was like that without One thing we talked about when we talk, we were dead,
look episode, and we all. This was all pre pre arrest, but it truly looks like two different people. The descriptions are completely deaf yeah and another is a lot of active rapists at that time. Unfortunately our so but there, but it's almost like he did a kind of lake, the Ex ninety thing, he did it make over and like a workout thing were suddenly he's super ads and saying he learned to be excellent and the like a look at that guy. Before further impetus mean you take a boat, you have actually got. You know how heavy his face was in. That was always the stumbling block all had, and I had the shell had O Higgins had was whether this guy, who was being described as being kind of stocky with these heavy heavy legs, and this face. That was like a baby's face and room. Where
he could have been this kind of swimmers, body, spider man, that's jumping over all this stuff and made that switch. You know just a couple years later and it turns out that he did. And I think he probably purposely altered, whereas physique, because there was a composite of whom you earlier, that was very but would add on so he had to change, but in all to continue doing what he wanted to do tat we so work? Evidence was that Red Herring I don't know right now. You know why I had high confidence that that that that was from him. You were really in the Bible and really into that homework evidence, and at this point in time I comp has been shaken, however, based on what I saw inside the Angelos House, God he went in there. Oh, my God,
you're right. I do. I do think that there is still a possibility. The the writing is very consistent with who this offender is. You know that scrawled punish punishment. You know everyone writes that undergo yet, as you know, an egg on actual mad as the word as aid. That psychologically is so much with who fits with who this offender is. I Believin, had said that I believed it was an old spiral that he had, because I am fully com. But at the angels, a guy that was out there taking notes, as he's prowling, we have two pens at were dropped up in Sacramento, so I do think he had an old spiral with them, where I'm a little bits, right now is the diagram because, I did a lot of work on that diagram. I have people saying this is a guy that is familiar with. The development industry looks like he's, a practitioner using industry, specific symbols and right, now at the Angelo he's a cop. You know and some kind of just Lou, I'm late,
Paul holes on that whole thing, because, with the when you first the knight of the arrest, when you sent us the that old article that you'd found said in high school he'd work for a winch and Brown, bread, oyster company? I live in my mind. I was like he was there that one out there and pulled the trees out before they lit Brown paved out all of these housing complexes like it made Finland Community itself plan community drawing it is. I do believe when you look at in the military work, he did receive carpentry training, so he understands how to frame houses once dont know what kinds of classes he took at Sierra Com- but your sack state, but it's going to be more than just criminal justice, because you do take additional courses and they have courses of drafting landscape architects you're. So maybe this is just an exercise that he did. However, it
also possible that I had a guy online who's been forty five years and law enforcement. He said back in the day we weren't paid very good. We often took second jobs. Often though second jobs were security guards on job sites, and that resonate with me based on the pattern that I saw with at once then Sacramento Lobe at once. He moves outside Sacramento. You see a prevalence of attacks occurring either in or immediately adjacent to active construction. So I could see, were maybe that's what he's doing in that's. What's pulling him out all over Northern California, because he's making easy moonlighting and while he's out in San Jose he's taken the opportunity to attack by Dana Plant any he got until I get it. Community getting into that community. Wanted have been very hard, but you look at that community. They had the Uno security guards at the gates. They had roving security guards. So it's a higher risk attack, so he is choosing to go there.
Versus may be going to wear some place? It's not so high risk so that something that I ll get going. You maybe there's there's a reason he's drawing to Harrington more so because he could have chosen a different neighbourhood. I was there anything when you were. I can't believe you're in the house What I would fucking pay the same, sail the fanatical and also just little things like the fact that each some aid policies and that they were Ino just anything with initials on its just like all that stuff, that it does so here to be on the side of a heart is part of the story. Where for so long, like Michel and those cuff links for so long people have been taking these tiny. Things and just try did you ever, they can with tiny bit from and now there's households and information and, as our anything in the house may know, you can give a specific that made you kind of do a happy day
its or gave you chelles or gave you of any kind of feeling the I think, the most the thing that I observed, that was tat left the biggest impression on me and this. It probably isn't very well known in the series, but one of the aspects these too are a rapist would do is when he would take the female out, and typically this a family room to separate or from the husband and lay down and she's bound. He would turn tv on and he had to keep the sound and then put eight how over the tv so you'd have this glow, so he could see her right walk into debt Angelos room the computer there and he's howl over the monitor looking at that. Going was obviously does cover or Is he reminiscently, no wonder that he wants a glow of, is it
pulling out any though souvenirs and replicating the glowing environment alike. I run back in the nineteen seventies. So that's that was something that's it. And then he likes peanut butter he's eating peanut butter address phone. Why that's? What I'd like here telling us do you think he is I need to talk or explain any of this. I really, don't think so. You know before he was identified. I judged this offender as being all about self preservation. He didn't they get caught, he has never administrative, these Zodiac or Bt K Ego, go of wanting to say, hey, look at me, and so I felt that if he was caught he's not sit there and in itself incriminate after seeing how he responded during the first thing. I watch seven hours worth of the interviews and I
don't see him talking it? But you never know he may have a change of heart at some point as he is speaking his family, his daughter, my gear com, a dry up. Are they? Ok? Those poor girl so harm that Dave for my heart, seeing the two that the two youngest daughters, air and I said this crime can, in my opinion, those two iraqi. All three of the daughters are really his last victims are suffering now from what he absolutely ere you wanna things that lettuce and there's a story that I don't know if you told it at crime, you told it to me was the I think it was maybe the night or a couple nights before you retired, when you are outside this house- and you were thinking about, began lob, can you can you walk us third
there's one more movie like aspect of this story: the sheer retiring in a couple yeah, that's the thing: it's as, if you retiring to couple days, Ito your partner, Michelle You know died in fleets tragically two years ago and your retiring a couple days need got one last aspect to check out right outside of his house. In your wondering, you know what I agree: I can just go in and get a swamp and what was going through your mind, an end at any point: did you, SAM, too old, for the most part of making Europe a heart therapy at dawn, child yeah Now you know that in leading up here we had kind of we had about it. I would save, four to five mails from the genealogy search that caught her interesting They are California connections and then too
that had Sacramento connections won through extended family and then Angelo after we were able to eliminate the the one and it was marching down on the annual saying. Well it's what's what's about this guy, you know on, Paper are you. Our finding out and his connection to Sacramento was faint. He a family attending school and Ranch Cordova. He was a wholesome high school student in the sixties. Pity you know I Canada not like that. I was going up in Auburn and how's. He doing all these attacks but it wasn't until I spoke with. Is the boss at fired him from Auburn the chief the chief is relaying some of these behaviors that he experienced and observed, and of course we ve got the engagement to banya nineteen. Seventy and we have. Our offender be making a statement, I hate you banya hate you bond in one of the Davis attacks, There is enough churned that it was. I
to see where this guy lives? Have you seen the story about the shoplifting you did yes. So this the timing. Me, driving up to his house, was my last day before I lit They turned in my bag and Gus ridiculous and I was sick they are going well. I need to go see, that's what I always do as now once identified somebody, I just need to start looking at them and site. I drive up from Martinez, which is in the Bay area up to set our sights and that's about an hour and a half drive. I get up there and I just park in front of his house and you have to understand point it wasn't. This is the guy. He was just starting to get interesting. And I'm sitting there and I'm looking and there's a car parked in the driveway and I'm looking to see if there's any activity in the house, I don't see any activity, but I was pretty confident that he was there and in. In my position I was a slight you now dismal
ass day. What Chances at this is actually the guy and I should just go. Knock on the door? Introduce myself like I've done time and time again and just say, I'm looking into an old case: can can we Chad a little bit and eventually a stout, the report then, ultimately ask you: do you mind giving a dna samples thought about it and with what I heard from the chief and the body- and you know some of the other aspects about him- I just don't know enough about him to do that. Yet I decided to drive away This story initially got out when a local Bay Area NEWS, the person was kind of ask me I really really was going to solve this case before I retired an idea. But at least I can take solace and that I was within fifty feet of the guy or for twenty four years yeah. That was that was it and all aside and assist me and others big o, my god. He was right there before and I wasn't feeling that type of Vietnam
the thing at all in fact of deep local magazine right, that wrote an article on me. Now he email me after that story got out, as I hope that's like Jody fur After going about how I was like, I wasn't feeling that by yes, I better drive all now know when I told that story to heat Hadley who, if we build, talk everyone who I'm working with unannounced town for caisson and chasing another serial killer, that I'm putting Rasmussen this serial killer about putting at another time line foreign figure out. Where he's been, he said that makes me so happy that he didn't go, and he just said I'm so happy. You didn't go in that house, you known in retrospect when, when you learn about, Who D Angelo? Is you know the during surveillance he was the guy's watching we're safe This guy is not moving around like a seventy two year old man he's like a fifty year old man like me,
he's he's moving around he's on his motorcycle he's high rates of speed on his motorcycle on the freeway, the way he derives even stop. Signs are optional. Puttering around the house in the yard, he's basically jest showing that he's a physically capable individual and we knew that he had lots of guns register to omen. Of course, he had both the military and law enforcement training when it comes to firearms, the front of his house, that front door is in a what Agnes up it's a funnel with that he had. It really is a kind of enclosed area that you have to walk through in order to get that front door. So in back me knocking there and I've been on tv enough. We could have looked through a people or a window and unseen up. I know who that is, and he could have gotten things- could have been very bad. Do you think that he watched and he kept up on the news of his own absolutely think that you know, and outside
but I ve been so disappointing if he lets they hadn't killed you, but he killed himself. It would have you noticed too that lasts The last couple days so being so close and he's onto at your own kills them south, and that's that was part of the concern or say you know I could contact it. Omits could have been suicide could have in violence between him and meetings. Actually it could have been he fleas or he takes hostages it out. A lot of things could have gone bats, oh, do whatever! made me drive away. You know that instinct that intuition, thank God. I am. I followed its because your Papa home, I'm out of here, that's. Why says, beginning of DNA, if you're, not all the already dead at zero a year on the record, can we talk about so now. Everyone can you tell us the heavens talking
the dna aspect of it and how its unfair and all this bullshit and unconstitutional how close a match can you find based off of someone since DNA, that they turn into a website, I mean Well isn't. Genealogies are well You do that kind of search, of course, are hoping to find somebody as close as possible may and in that way things easier if you find a sibling aura. First cousin, it's very very easy to identify the you know that the offender from from that we start getting out to the second cousin nets. Hurry doable thing, but it takes a little bit more effort. Third cousin bets doable like what we had, but it's four months, where the very very high on our cats I ended up being as their cousin. We were dealing predominantly with third since we ended up getting somebody who was on the order of a second cousin at one point, and that was one of the you, the turning
in terms of getting us into the right branch. But the thing that I keep people is, of course, a stigma. Law enforcement is, is got our dna or accessing our dna. I can't see that persons open the genealogy websites, those peoples, dna profile, I can't download those profiles. You know for me to see their genetic information. I have to be able to do that. The websites don't allow that, and I don't care about that. All I'm looking for is how much dna these people share with me, offenders, dna and then those people, I know warrant. My person of interest right, there have there, they don't even know who this guy is. Something do you know who your second cousins are. Do you know who you are
cause. I haven't pushy, but now it's it's. It's it's out, you're starting to get too far away in the family for people to really know who they are. But there are starting data point. When you have multiple starting data points that you can track back in time and find a commonality, then you have something to work with so you're vendors likely a descendant from their despite sounds stupid. But then do you reach out to the second and third cousins, and can I get a new rambling trade? No unanimity! It no reason to its traditional genealogy work that you do online. It's very easy and energy there's other things, but when you start getting down into people that are alive today here the genealogy websites anonymize that automatically but us in law enforcement. That's what we accept why does identifying those people, and so when we
get down into the people that are born that are still alive than we resort to traditional law enforcement investigations accessing the databases that we can access to identify who they aren't start evaluating them. Are they people that we should consider and then eventually at some point you start going well, maybe this person I need to get some dna from adjust to helps Am I close enough or have I stepped further away it because they think a lot of people are trying to frame at, and I think they were probably trying to do that to cause it's a store it just another angle on. Story on the story, but it like, when you are on the daily that New York Times Podcast and that guy was kind of, he was kind of seeing what use hammer you on that whatever and then you are like yeah bottles Your aunt could call you in just directly to the police department and say take look at my nephew, he seems suspicious and then we're onto you that way like you're, just picking and choosing why you don't
like the way we find the person in many ways and people are concerned. You know that I have heard the turmoil in ox an extended family members basically being used as a genetic. Witness against me, I have no control over that person putting their dna up in the system, and I have a common shared dna with Manichean kind of understand that you have to understand what really here, friends and all these investigations, as you said, we get tips typically from from Ex wise ex girlfriend are going I didn't like him, I think, he's a golden stay killer sometimes I really believe it, and sometimes they just want to throw their acts under the boss. You know, let's have law enforcement rained down on his head in many ways I like in this to a form of swatting he and all that that they call up and say the sausage at this house. Now you have a swat team, go and people do do so it at least DNA, there is Thursday, eight it's a precision tool and by we contacted once we started this particular ass.
Backed up with genealogy using the odd is almost DNA and the Jed match we can acted one person and got dna from that person, and she was very a very helpful that saved hundreds of people who, The public had called it from us going and knocking on the doors and having that feed. Also in law enforcement is investigating them in and asking them for their dna samples In many ways it was better for those people's privacy because they weren't being indeed and their parts dashes not demanded. Rushing down there to open the tax dollars that are being waged by the time at that would have been spent. Getting Well it in- and I I I've pointed this out- and you know four forty four years with more resources than any other law enforcement investigation, that I can think of you. We were. We do not solve this case
once we started this process with five people plus to outside experts took us for months, So it really shows the power of the technology and then, since that we ve seen a double homeless, I'd up in washington- be solved Yad by fully expect to see In all cases, start to fight the dominoes are all falling. I had no money. I think this is the biggest single bits Dna was actually used in a criminal case. This is the next biggest break in terms of solving called cases, is using familial dna and it's going to be a matter of resources. We were talking about this before that there is. All of the rape kits that are out there and how many those people did evolve into murderers or with did evolve into cereal, rapists and its be a matter of, and I've spoken this on the show right after the press conferences that you know, they're gonna,
eat genealogist they're gonna need volunteers, they're going to need, you know, not. Everybody had the resources that you haven't. You are able to have those resources, but the small police departments in the thousands of police departments that we have across the country- and there is a group of people right now all the baby boomers who have a ton of experience and our end its them. It's the most educated, most skilled workforce, but we ve ever seen retiring their real he is a chance right now to utilise that those people, as well as the gent exercise, and also the millennials who want to do. I want a hobby with purpose, and you know deputize them in a meaningful way. Using liaison stuff. That's what I'm doing, and actually, after my after I said that on the podcast, I won't and in the state. But somebody call me from the legislation of a state and said I want to do this now that might that might actually habitats
nor does it seem like an you know, and more creditable holes, but like it is that thing of the police that open their arms to talking to you know writers, journalists or the with the online investigators or whatever, where that idea that its to pool information and pool what be information you can pull economy benefit great. If, people are working on something. Or is that not right? Now very much so now there there's, there's prison caught in an obviously like my partnership with Michel was very much a positive experience in, and you know we outsize symbiotic. We were able to just help each other in. It was a truly a public private partnership and Third, the online sleuthing community there's a lot of very bright and capable people out there that have capabilities at four
exceed mine in certain ways or expertise that lends itself to being able to provide information. But what you, you see, though, is you have the other side and the other side, is what ways down. Mastication, because now you have these people that are calling in tips that have no nexus. They get very belligerent impact based look at me as their private investigator there's like Now- that's not how this works here. How there needs to be a code of conduct, there needs to be of a filter, a filter that everything goes through and you you you know Actually, I'm actually writing this code of conduct up right now in one of the things is after the biggest thing, which is dont name names and bubble
don't say hey. This is the guy. Is this the guy got? You can never do it, which is what you, which is what you saw in the Boston bombing, which set crowd sourcing back years that this second thing after that is be safe in the third thing is that you know you have to have that kind of you, no code of conduct. You can't stem go off and especially for dealing with victims, families. Now you have to have the just maintain a positive outlook and not just in up all over any body and you're not gonna get credit a lot of times. You're not gonna, get credit. There's a lot of you all. I found this guy found, this guy use have a say: listen if you work or the victims, families the victims, families. No, but it's can we few and far between that a police officer or detective? Is gonna go and say this weekend? I've had to happen myself was amazed when they did it. They invited me to the press conference or something that I helped solve. Very really happens. I think it's happened. Maybe twenty percent of the ones that I've been able to help with so you know you're not always going to get that. But you know you need that code
down in that that would be helpful as long as it's they abide by it. There's also Canada having respect that. There are gonna, be aspects in the investigation that have to be closed, and that is very, very real and in some people have a hard time, understanding that those that have experiences over the decades real I sat there are people out there. You know, for example, there are people that will confess to these types of crimes and they have no involvement. That's one of the reasons you know if we don't have a case that has such strong dna evidence and we have to rely on the circumstances of how that crime was committed. There is gone, The details it have to be held back from the public, otherwise we're gonna have these people coming in and just confessing in me alive out how it happened, because I read about it in the newspaper and we can't really
sort them out from the actual guy that did it. Have you decide what of those we know? What would have that evidence to keep behind, and what of it would be helpful for the public to note help saw that our rights its case by case you know, and most certainly it's it's assessing what only the offender would know right that's what we would hold back there is. So things that we hold back just out, since it but to the family now, because they don't want necessarily here the horrors that their family member went through so you know, there's, there's lots of decisions that are made very and it has to be made very early on. You know, for example, coroner's report that's because examiners report when the information it's in there is technically public record. So we to recognise very early on at that point in time,
to seal that record or reject specific information? How does that report that we do not want to let the public down. There was actually one of the core things too about the idea channels, I shall is how many victims spoke on. Camera talked about their experience lake. I think that the that part of with gonna stay killer it it's. Knowing how many victims are and what a horrible time that was for so many people in Sacramento in the seventies and Just to see these amazing women who are just like wealthy, This is what happened in walking you through words like they were the victims of this kind but there are also very strong women who are leading their lives and seeing them also crime con with you, guys, Jane and Margaret to straighten Margaret or just ridiculous. May I say in lodgings sense of humour and coming up with quip after quip,
first, you know with his small member and having the conversations about that, but also Justino wanted to hit him in that. With the role that the other she's so fantastic either. Any case says that really want people to. Go on now that this one is off of our arse webs sleuth plates young look up and stuff or that's the one that you know as far as like the beer, and I was working on the UN's town for case right when I learned that Michel died. I just got back from being in the woods and worker walking that area when I was in a bar and found out that she had passed. So I kind of link these two, and these too are actually kind of linked in a weird way too, because Paul Paul about their case and had talked to some of the same investigators about DNA way back in the day about, while the interesting thing I didn't know about the Alan's town for case at all, Billy brought that
attention a few years ago, when we first met at Michel's memorial so I kind of looked at that online. Is that looks like a very interesting case. I had a case I went out on in two thousand and two a homicide of an asian female, and it turns out that Guy Larry Banner who killed his linen girlfriend too. We could not weakened and identify lair it. We don't know who he was and he had abandoned a child back and nineteen. Eighty six I've been reading about this, the Jensen and you were sure, once we determinedly he was not the biological father LISA that we thought that she was an abducted child from somewhere and you traditional law enforcement methods. We could never identify who LISA was, and I just happened to get into a key, Prince CALL February of two thousand seventeen with Peter. ITALY from San Bernardino and captain from
but my sheriff's office, who was led investigator on the two thousand to homicide, and that's when I first found out that LISA Janson had been identified as dawn boat in a missing girl out of Canada and eventually that ended up linking this two thousand and two case out of contrast, a county to the ones. Town case the New Hampshire that Billy had told me about, but I can tell bill, yeah I now, but in the crazy thing about TAT Jesus he's ever be, I can ever be still further the girls in the barrels, which is a woman in and three females. We still do of their identity. I know who killed them, which you very rarely happens. You know it's the other way around. So that's the case that I'm very deep anti right now in them, a special on, and also in oh, it's gonna, be in my book at some point by
Did there so many crazy twists and turns, and we talk about this guy being you know, we talk about don't stay killer and being so evil, I really think Rasmussen slashed by Levin Splash Larry Banner he had tons of different names was even more evil because he's Emma was this. He would cited to a woman who had kids. He would take that woman sort of away from her family and move her away, and then he would molest the kids, kill the woman and then use kids to attract another woman that he is poor single father. Once you got that the woman with other kids, he would kill the kids it he got the with the other one once they were ready to talk and then start that whole cycle all over again and He did this a lot and we are still trying to figure out where else he's been so it's right now. I am delving into these two backgrounds if these guys that warrant, necessarily super nice guys. The difference is that one of them is dead and he liked to talk a lot because he
really was master manipulated this guy Erasmus and you can look up his than the stuff that you know his in allegations and he really thinks he's gonna get out of it. As the angels are completely different cat, and he just me now. Obviously, spending seven hours are staring at the wall. Not you think that's cause he's a cop, too Like he's sorry seen what can happen if you start talking no question about it, the other law enforcement training is is most certainly reality. Ban on the other side talkin to suffer Maxie understands what means to incriminate yourself with statements, and he was married to an attorney. So you can get to go to trial, you can kill. You have the balls to go to trial.
I think it will eventually going to trial, but don't expect that trial to happen any time soon. I knew I think the trial is probably going to five years or more out of these cases. Emmy. It takes a long time to get a case specially of this magnitude to trial yeah and he's he's looking for an escape route that again if he's gonna, do everything in its power to either potentially goad NEO has spent time in a hospital, as opposed to spend some time in a prison nor jail and just do anything he can in terms we are going to try to do delays and delays and alive commission a piss you off in his home in a wheelchair and left corner. That was just a bunch of be ass. It in an that's, that's where in many ways you know here, he is he's trying to protect himself as a golden state killer. Back in the day as this me, you know, Justice master the criminal mind and then he's doing this wimpy wheelchair thing at this point he does needs to man up. He needs to basic
you take accountability for these crimes. Tell us everything if he wants if he wants any type of recognition, so to speak. Do that like BT did just stand up there and say I did. This is how I did it there. HU. I self identified as an unfair right now he's he's taking the cowardly way out ton. I am psycho now, just I was thinking. Maybe it part of that and the The quality of that is that judge recently deciding that they can publicly talk about the size of his penis weight. I'm sure it is has a lot to do with all of it all of it, Don't you think at the end of the day, like there's the part of the region? part of that all that stuff. I just think it's like there's a religion ill humiliation level. That's not just he got caught right, that's possible, maybe Emily. It's so frustrating stumbling. They talk about it. They actually can take a picture of it Ray
They have you know we ve got the genius k, Dick big Emily, putting it up on the instant I am I being murdered in a survival. Is a brand new hashtag waiting to happen to me something about the single sack Billy oh yeah yeah so this week- and I know how early you guys, gonna get this on. But tomorrow, if MAC, which is a national centre for missing, exploited children, they do rock one sock which to raise awareness for all the missing children that are out there. So I am going to be asking everybody in this room to be taking off one shoe and one sock and rocking one sock we'll take pictures of put. Upon them on social media, but your neck MAC is great there there of a fantastic org station and they do a lot with them and that really, as it's the clearing house for finding missing children- and I actually was at knickknack right before the day before I went up to our town, which, the day before I found out about Michel, I was actually
Interview. I was at knickknack interviewing the guy that had done the deep, the facial reconstruction of the four victims in the barrels. It was fast Maybe he was turning turning the heads around out there on the screen and the new showing and use all this giant hole in the back of their heads- and this is what this guy did- he had he took a rock or a brick, and then just did this to these three. Little girls in this woman and that's his earmarking. That's what we ve been looking for me and Hadley across the country and seeing other places they did Ex. Obviously, that was his way of getting rid of. Somebody was hit him the back of the head. We found a couples. Was one of those little girls was his own. Yes, May I just have, which is how they found a horrible Karen. You look shook when the sock, yet we ve been on european tour for several years I haven't had. I don't remember the last time out a petty cure, I'm in a hurry to defend my now. How do I go to the cliff doktor like just the idea of that?
I can only speak while I was gonna. Yes, are you don't make me? Do I kept to secrets from you was that I was really having you upset? I understand your business, like my humiliation birthday. Why do you read me? That's what I thought we were friends so unfair and the one thing I did want to say how holes is when when I was listening to the daily at the very And that interview any kind of weirdly abruptly ended, it were suddenly was like both thanks for doing this interview. The way you said to him. It was, I think you said, was great to be here or was great to talk to you something this sound of your voice, and maybe this is just my. I think I, give your mind, but it sounded what you are saying is, thank God. This is the story. I'm finally getting to tell like there was such a relief in your voice and almost like a happiness. The way you said like was great here I would like such it was,
so it was so exciting that this that the story finally changed, and I can't say that at that moment in time, that's what I was thinking. I don't remember what you meant. It absolutely is great to be able to at least start talking about who these dear re possess. While I've note this guy, this was the Easter rapist or the ear to me. For decades began Michel named in the golden state, killer finally see who he was, after all these years to see that phase that all I've seen in my life When I read the case files amassed man, and so now I could see a basically. The mask has been taken off. It is kind of dairy diced get to this point and As I have mentioned, I have a story to tell that never been told, and now I have the opportunity to be able to tell it and I'm workin on that, and we heard that there's be an addendum to the topic on in the dark, as I am glad to say that I think that there is good,
I guess I've been telling everyone across the little people have actually been bringing copies of the book to the meat raids on our lives shows us designer, like we had nothing to go like you know. If the world and those that I sent you the picture, but there were two murderers who are from France, who just said we ve brought you this figure deed, wanna, see it before version of it, which of course I immediately start arrives lucky. I really did want to see that they realize it, but but you know that just there's there is now an ending right, given that it was there something very sad and, of course, unsatisfying about how how it was growing going through per notes, and while we were putting the book together, and finding that coda, finding the letter to the old man- and it was it was amazing. You know my jawdropping when I first saw that analysis and the way that she wrote it and it really did play out exactly how she's so an end. I that was one of the first things:
thought about. When I heard the news I was like. I wonder if it was just like that you know, and it turns out it was, but the finding that it was. It was almost like she knew she knew tat if something bad happened to her. This is how the book is going to end. If we didn't catch, and again she just wanted him caught more than anything else in yeah, that'll, it'll and there in the mobile tax, something else on land spherical inwards, for Paul. Are you gonna go Hollywood drawn so I am, of course, and I am going to write a book about my story. I am exploring tv up, priorities to see what what's there? I've got many many cases that I've worked, in one of the things. I, though, JFK, is my biggest case. I want to make sure people understand that I'm not just G
That wasn't here only Keynes? No words in my own. It's just to hold that one file on your that, as already yearly. I will say, or for the better part of the last ten years I really tunnel vision on that case, especially in the last two years and in some ways in eyes. Billy was one that several Unita open a twitter account. I have like an incarcerated man, I have just been so tunnel vision on the case at a whole, world is kind of grown out there and now that the cases behind me and I'm retired now what go on all right. It's a nightmare, but its very fun. At the same time, so you know I am exploring things, I'm helping other agencies out and it's not just the genealogy cited, bring other aspects of experts he said, I can lend to a case neuroscience dead, besides background. I have an investigator background. I have a behavioral background and backing
that's my strength as I can walk between those disciplines and Ba or to piece together stuff that may be an investigator who doesn't understand the forensics and is looking at a report that just a bunch of scientific gibberish. I can talk that investigators, language and say this is what you ve got. This is the direction you need to go Saint, if you have a profile are coming in, I can be able to help bridge these people that don't necessarily walk in each other's worlds and so on that's my strength and that's what I'm hoping to be able to do and help other law enforcement agencies to the poles. Lifeguard shell, let live riding a shell Paul, I think, are not know. It's a really important questions. Are you to take advantage of the all the fucking ponds you can use within the last night? I was very disappointed that you know growing Europe with the last. I ok it all. I refer to every body or
and you see some of the hashtag sense is the way it is out, but it is also not yard fire. I understand people like to have fun and- and- and I think everybody especially in twitter, people just go little Craig. There they're just everybody's, I think before us at least the newness of How how many true cried fans are out there, how passionate they are and how we ve all basically, like I said, revolve, marking the same tv shows for twenty years. We alone will you know I remember the episode of whatever the show was dateline or twenty twenty when they were like the ear, this is the original night stock. You know what our two thousand one, whenever that happened like that all those women telling people of I mean I've been anecdotally, telling people the story of how he must have been one of the town halls, because
this thing, without really knowing what the case was four years Raymond, that's might not be trail. Re story to tell a party will it's amazing and at night and it that the golden say killer is up there with the worst of the worst. So those stories fits, even if are not totally accurate. That's how bad this guy. I mean he really is that awful as a person so yeah? That's just it there's a whole theirs a true crime world waiting for you Paul Wholesale. I hope to be able to walk into that world down. The rabbit may mean Michel used, always talk about overcome, going down this rapid home, like what we were doing when we had entered into. Why search entered his dna when we only had a little bit of the markers, not as many as you had later on, but you're going down that rabbit hall of the of that?
name we won't mention and going through in going through, like you know it eighteenth century census reports, and in that I wondered like three but three weeks attack like what am I doing with my line. This is ridiculous and thinking like we can get him, but it was tat I was ten generations ago into just one you call out about you. Do you call up the guy that you're sure was in your hounding and apologize to him? others been met Guys like that, and I have gone and spoken with them. Then they have no idea that I investigated, as this suspect, so was seen on one guy I spent a year on end, after I got his dna surreptitiously and eliminated, am I spent three hours in the dining room talking to him, because I thought he was close enough that may be the Easter rate. This was somebody he knew. Why house out. That's not step that was just part of the typical investigation. Marched down this path, get excited about somebody. You see all the circumstantial evidence in the dna eliminating you're going to sir
simulated, something. Well, that's it. That's a shell right, other reasons, your rest, someone, even though they are not the serial killer, really quick did they Let you talk at the press conference because is not a political thing. Is that that kind of, like the DNS, examine. This person speaks in it, it so well most. Surely you know with the press conference you do have. The elected officials are coming up on their campaign cycle, so they are going to want to get that attention I had told de Anne Marie Schubert, because we weren't they. Did not want to get into the details about the genealogy at the press conference. The focus was on the Angelo I had gone up. Her before, and I said you know what, if the press start asking questions about the technical aspects, don't turn it over to me because I'm gonna be answering and then the you are going to be answering questions about the genealogy site, so I did back
aid from being somebody who could have been up there at that podium. In fact, I had victims. I had to go Collins ICE slipped out in Ohio. Was dragging on and on in order to start calling these victims Calloway still manage it claw. This is amazing things we saw my re. Thank you both for being here got growth has been my pleasure on one of the things that you said. You too, you talked about Michel's contribution to the golden state killer case and absolutely she had a contribution, but you take it get what you two are doing in the true crime space. You are bringing attention to these cases, and that is just as signify. And so you are having a role so understand them. Thanks I didn't know forwards openly having a good idea and a lucky to be involved.
Any way we can with that thing that you know, as as all of us say it used to make us feel weird to be so interested in stuff like this, when it's used to be a thing that we all kept to ourselves and now it you know, there's like and it's a new day and everyone gets ago. Yet I'm into that too. I got that. I know all about us are more than enough unsolved murders out there. This was only you know. Really a handful of migrants Emma things has to hundred and fifteen thousand unsolved murders. Since nineteen eighty in america- and you know you guys- can can shine because you guys are the biggest superstars right now in and true crime at that time, seen in awhile really long time I mean you had I John Walsh, and then you had Nancy Grace, but Nancy Grace is very polarizing character. Any of you guys and the fact that you need got three thousand people showing up at your at your events and going crazy in the end all of the Ets he stuff and crafts, and everything I mean it's really is amazing, and I think that there is a lot of great that can be done from all the murdering us out there. Yet
I think, that's only having cause we. We also, constantly here when we meet people that at the meeting greek people saying either they're going back. The college to sudden irons x or they are switching their majors. I mean we hear things all the time and we're like I'm like I've just been reader. Wikipedia be as I'm not, but it's, People are so excited that they have this interest that they know they share. That's popular, an interesting and- and I love the idea that there could be this wave of women getting into police work and really being now the next Carol dailies so that that's that isn't at an unarmed thing there is that the female perspective, I think, is kind of crucial. Absolutely is in I've. I've experienced at first hand where you work a case and you're working it from a male perspective. The female, is seeing it from a different side and definitely is an additive. When you go huh
That is not how I perceived this at all. So that is better. A- and there are a lot of amazing woman in law enforcement today, yeah yeah, let's incredible community, the sudden, murdering community and we're lucky to be part of it, and it also isn't just going back to school this. Its voting. Remember that if you don't want to do, go back to school, you got a good job and you're just saying right. I just like reading about the sick of this stuff and listening to it. It's vote and we need to get loud and we need to get loud now is as much as we were getting loud and starting get loud with the backlog in ending the backlog. Need to start getting loud on all of these reasons, even the there remains that are sitting in police lockers of people. We need to start figuring out who those people are star figuring out. Only running the rape, kids, but then running through familial dna and solving these crimes and that's gonna be through arenas,
getting loud along with everybody else in this trying to make that stuff happens under any resources. People can look into my mind, tat kind of find, I would say, let's start within the back. I just do a search for in the back, and you can find in our single market is doing great work there, yet about that. A lot has been let the whole thing is sometimes murdering also get together just to drink together and then they'll be like we raise two hundred fifty dollars for and the backlog they just like a it's very cold is their everybody's very proactive in an excited. It's cool, yea thanks. You got an you guys thanks for listening, everyone, fuck Rather, we didn't do that. This is a show and its own fucking hurry. It's all one thing the dry Stephen, I have to say the thing. Oh, Do you like me, I forgot my line of today's go. Get learn by about
Transcript generated on 2020-01-05.