Exactly rain, would, if you were trafficked into the inner circle of a cold and saint a billion year contract at thirteen. What would you do this is actually happening. Is a weekly podcast from hungary that features extraordinary true stories of life, changing events told by the people who live there, followed. This is actually happening on amazon, music or wherever you get your podcast and welcome to my favorite murder- that's george hard star: that's caring, kill, gara, I'm kate, winkler, dawson and our balls, and this is-

buried bones, yeah finally gas. This super girl, tibet. Everybody's been waiting for. This is the exactly right power team yeah, where the traveling will berries have exactly right to me like a parallel universe is going to open up. I think with all four of us are so excited about this. Absolutely it's like the amateurs vs, the professionals yeah well and we're so excited too, because buried bones has been in the mix and in the works for a very long time, highly secret and ah I believe the trailer is out, but now you guys can actually tell everybody about your new package, together so exciting paul one on she start but you'll buried.

This is really the sort of thy brainstorm between Kate and I came up with this concept to after we recorded a case for her other podcast. Add she had reached out, and said hey? Do you have any store cases? Why do cold cases see it? On the oldest cases? I typically do or back into the nineteen sixties, and was I store cases and I happen to have a role in consulting on a nineteen twenty four case. Bessie Ferguson, as I said, hey I've got this one case out of the bay area. What turns out? It was a case that kate had covered in her

so she knew it well, and so we recorded that episode and it was so great that was so smooth. We definitely just hit it off in terms of the dialogue in how we took a look at the case and and and kate is just such a masterful, storyteller ban so now buried bones. A sort of, I would say it, sort of that, but on steroids were hate basically tell me a story which I know very little about, and I respond the go well! This is what I'm thinking with the information you ve told me, and she always has twists and turns and keep me on. My toes, I ash is so good at that he's given homework, which I'm not sir he's taken very well. For me, where I send them a note- and I say here's kind of what it's about it's more of a tease than anything and you need to know about mercury in the eighteen, hundreds or yeah

Is it really weird given that far back? I know that, like you're, able to talk to witnesses and you're able to look at crime scene photos in your eye able to do that on some of the union. I really use an extension because when I start you know, I'm working cases from the nineteen seventeen nineteen sixty site, often don't have witnesses or suspect- or physical evidence been destroyed or case files have been lost or phone grass- and so it's kind of then the same skill set, but its usual worse was in from the one we are, but what is amazing is that it doesn't matter for was today or from the head of the eighteen hundreds. You know mentally crime was the same motor it's the same and we just below can look at it a little bit differently and we have modern technology that all discuss, saying hey if we could have done this back in the eighteen hundreds. This is what it would have shown yet.

you guys. It's such a nice cause. I've listened to the pilot and for all the listeners out there, it's as good as you are hoping it will be truly just a sparkling combination of the two of you doing what you do best to true experts, but then at this, time it feels like eavesdropping on that teachers and its really annoying. In that way or its leg. You know you don't gossip or anything but there there is that it's a casual discussion of well wait. Think about this. What about that? Oh dont forget the back at me. In hundreds, everyone drank mercury, for cause whatever. You know, that's not technically right, but that's. Okay, know we didn't do our homework, we do our job, so it's just really fun. I'm so glad that you guys are having a great time, because it's just so compelling and listen to its great. Why think? It's fun because when I was working,

lest I would sit down with friends of mine who were with the police, department or defence attorneys and prosecutors, and sit down with a story. I was working on and I would say: okay, let me just kind of unroll this story for you and tell me what you think it. So this is exactly the same thing that there are two things that I try to do successfully in so far so good paul wine. Is I like to convince some of these, victims and how much they deserve to have justice, because one thing policy, to me. I think a lot of people feel as the eighteen hundreds in africa. cases from the sixteen hundreds in the seventeen hundreds it's hard to relate to those people, sometimes It has a different time period, but he's right. Fundamentally, people kill, for the same reason, so the more detail that we can give about the victims

survivors, the better. It is an ill. Also. I like to surprise him. He knows I withhold some information like any good storyteller. He never seems mad mad at me. So that's good! I am last taping I said: are you irritated? No? No! No! No! No watch me down one road and all of a sudden that jumper jump over hold on here gas lava. Well, you guys have a really great. We don't know what story. Nine have a really great story for us say it's ok, mine, I agreed on its hour. I do want to jump in yeah, it's a great story, so there are several episodes from the podcast that cover my second book, which is called american Sherlock. And, fabric was a better forensic scientist and he had all of these amazing cases that made it three, and so I picked wine that I think Paul can really sick. His teeth into and it's a little gossipy, the not for now

and I'm pretty sure you two are going to like the gossipy bit. So we'll talk about that and I'm going to stop and get opinions from everybody and it's a hefty case. It took up a good portion of my book but I'm in a sort of shorthand exploited things as much as I can so this case, said during the great depression and ants in nineteen. Thirty, three palo alto, california and california, as you know, a place where you all are now pull once was. I once was in San francisco. So this is a case that resonates with me because it's just too average people their names are david and alien lamson and they were both graduates of stanford university and I, in thirty three earlier than that by nineteen thirty, three, she had become a kind of an executive worker He was one of the executives of stanford, university, printing press and very successful. They lived on a place called faculty row, which was where lot of the kind well to do, people and hello.

To live. They a little cottage. There super cute young couple in their late. these early thirties, they have little girl who is an nicknamed to really cute little girl to europe and they d have a nice life, and I know that many times our stories. This is only they started. and when everything seemed okay. But here really truly did David. An alien seem to be a really nice couple, and so they were go to parties and very popular, and they particularly we spell out I'm going to parties during holiday weakens. So this takes place memorial day weakened in nineteen thirty three, so they to a series of parties and nobody's drinking excessively or anything. I think they had a great time and then the very ass night sunday, night alien comes home and she feels nauseous. She wasn't for what was from. If it was from. You know the dessert that was served than before, but she came, I'm not feeling well and they had

sent the little girl out with they had a lemon nanny. They sent her out to spend the night, the nannies house so that they can have some privacy and they were sleep an alien didn't feel. Well, she welcome him been all the knights David took care of her is very sweet. Apparently, and then next morning he said I'm getting up early and he slept in a separate room. He slept in babies room because he said I have to get up early early. She wanted him to clean up part of the backyard kind of like a little garden in the back, and he had a lot of stuff that he had collect. Then he wanted to have a bonfire, which I think was pretty common back then so he got up. He knew no one outside eight clock in the morning. He starts this fire. He goes back in and she is awake now I leans awaken. She says she wants to take a bath. She still feels crummy still hasn't had stomach neurons about for her. In the bathroom which is in the hallway. He hopes are getting and she's holland. Then she does.

abs, and he hopes are the bathtub. He goes back out once she's in the bath. He goes back outside he sweaty takes a shirt off. The neighbours are broken their heads over the fence, in talking to him all morning. He talks about simon icing, someone's car and suck having a great time with the neighbors. So a real, state agent in a woman pop their head unexpectedly over the fence and baby will the little girl was having scientists, infections and they said, listen the doktor said after Well, they weaken. Why don't you guys to take her to the mountains? It'll probably help, and you can just sublet out your cottage, which is what they were trying to do so, the real estate agent, comes over on this day and says. I know I'm just popping in interrupting, but can I showed my client, your cottage and he said sure so put the shirt on he goes in and the real estate agent in the client go to the front door and they here They said the most tremendous terrible scream they had ever heard and beg.

the door they start knocking and within about one or two as they say he comes in we're feelings, it open and says my wife's dead and they walk. An alien lamson is slumped over the front of the bathtub in, of course naked. Blood all over the ground and then splatters on the walls and The police are called the neighbors com, it's an uncontrolled crime scene from the beginning and within fifteen, he is under arrest for killing his wife under fifteen minutes. How So when the real estate agents heard a scream was that a mail or a females voice now with hand screaming. Oh my god. Oh my god he's dead she's dead and he had blood on his shirt, but it was blood from peace. Egg is now a need to start saying that he said that he he picked her up he founder in about up. He doesn't know in what position so that's kind of key. He doesn't know

What position he just sort of almost blacked out he picked her up. He tried to what was going on. He realized she was dead. He heard the knocking he put her down in what in the past, where we have the photo that we'll talk about a little bit and so he's got this. You know kind of diluted water blood on his shirt and then investigators com and they start figuring out a bunch of different things. But I know probably all three of you have some questions so well. You know, I think it'll first is we. He is his early statements are, she is actually in the tub dead and the top is full of water. It is pink water ochre and then, when first responders arrive ever what year is this again? This is in the nineteen thoroughness it's thirty three, so they did do a liver temp as if that's what you're going to ask next. Actually I I was just kind of curious in terms of when crime scene photography started.

In this case here is that something that bear a first responders arrived. They checked the bodies like that in a lever tab. And then decided, ok, she's dead and they backed out and that's when crimes in processing of heard. You know I dont know what order it occur. and I know that if this tells you anything that that photo of her slumped over edge of the tub became really key evidence in court because it was the way that they had said. Well, you know the way the defence budget, This is not the way it happens, based on where she was laying, but he is saying that is now I found her. I dont know how I've had picked her up hatred. He tried to describe it. I picked her up, so it unreliable, you know, depending on on, I don't know, you believe, but he's arrested me so oh yeah any goes to trial. He does. He goes to trial map he's arrested. Can I just before we go

finally, I just want to say a guy who's hanging out. The back yard and people are poking that their heads. Over his family and his keys entertaining all comers. It's not like he's leg. I need private. I'm acting weird anything like that now and then, when they say, can we come through how our like, beyond Would you have to be to invite people into? how's, knowing there is a crime scene inside right or be like here's my chain, and killing her in that moment? So you know, I said, the look on Paul's face. There's a big smile and he's about he's about to tell you exactly how that or tell us that you know that. Well, this is where I think it's going to come down. Two if he's arrested, he's under suspicion for some reason by early investigators and right now, I dont off Kate has information as to why he fell under suspicion so quickly, but if he was one responsible,

for a leans homicide or death. Then he's already put mechanisms in place with the expectation that Somehow the body is going to have to be found. This is showing this is this part of this sub organised offender? If that's, what happened? but I am not necessarily gonna, hang my hat on that just yet, because I know case probably going to tell me some more details and then well there's an immediate suspicion. I think, for a couple of reasons. One is the tremendous amount of blood to them seemed like there's no way this in any way, could this have been an accident He literally said I don't know it. and I dont know what to do. I have a friend of mine who is a really good defence attorney, and he said that

Client you can get is a innocent one because their useless. They can't tell you anything Emily like what did I do like. I don't know I'm out, so I think that the blood on the shirt on his shirt, even though he explained what happened, was one thing I think he couldn't be answer question and it wasn't that he was stoic. He just was sort of in a daze which wouldn't be much her also, who else would have done it if this murder I just did. I think they looked at the amount of blood all over the place squatters on the walls in and on the ground and just thought, there's no way. Somebody didn't beat this woman to death but, like I said, I shall now right as like. What's the autopsy say, because I feel A head wound bleeds excessively in our slip and far what's the deal. Or is it murder a hundred percent? Well, I mean Paul. What do you think about so Georgia said, which I think is a great observation had wounds do headlines always bleed that much depends on when they occur.

Now you can have post mortem head wounds in You dont have a lot of bleeding, because heart is no longer pumping, but typically head wounds, both scalp, as well as, if the scene of the scholars fractured and Anders damage to the the arterial supply into the brain, they bleed heavily. So this is where neo getting into the autopsy result. Always when I'm evaluating a case, I always need know what happened to the victim. What are these, greece. What are the bleeding injuries? What's the cause of death, and then I go from there to assess the crime scene. So what does the autopsy say in this case? Allow hoddan? Let me pull this out because I sent it to you the exact what I wrote in the book. Actually

I think it's going to be very helpful because I told Paul I said: should she just read part of this book and he said: no, are you going to plagiarize or so now and then so yeah? That's a great idea. I love that yeah, the ultimate by the way, if you haven't read American sherlock, I just need to say it's one of my favorite, true crime books. It's so sad is maybe because I'm from the bay area- but I really love this book it. So if you're interested in any kind of thing like that america Sherlock is about essentially the first forensic scientists and criminologists in america, who might have made a big mistake in this case I guess we're going to find out on one of these other twists and turns. Will let me read you they're, so this is why I wrote that the tops report said poor lass racial on the back of the head covering the obsolete. All pro too, france and surrounding it

and then three of said, lacerations were somewhat whore. conall and direction. To being somewhat curved. We won depressed fact sure of the skull as well as an under pressed still eight is that right, stoical cell eight fracture really said one hard hit and then lots of little cracks like an egg. What do you think Paul? Okay? This is apparent, This is when the powerpoint. Here we go okay care, so this is a sketch of the of aliens head and the pathologist, has now noted these lacerations in this horrible otto manner that are to the back and somewhat down below the skull. The back of her head. now a laceration is a very specific term, it's a type of wound it's uber caused by when

Skin is crushed between a blunt object and the own under niece, and so that cause the skin to split you see this with boxers when their boxing and they get that hunch to the eyebrow brow the eyebrows splits that is technically a laceration racial, its an abrasion. It's not an incision, so these last durations does becomes apsley critical because you have multiple lacerations now, if the fancy saying she merely slipped in the tub and hit the back of her head yet have why, Alas, laceration, maybe you have multiple way duration that are occurring to this skin. This is indicating multiple events causing the skin to split where this blunt object hit the back of her head and then the the skull fractures that they are talking about.

The skull is very robust until it basically is compromised, so you can have a blow or several blows that aren't going to break the skull itself, a fractured skull, but once that scholars fractured than subsequent blows have an easier time fracturing it. The idea that there are saying that these fractures to the skull as well as the lacerations indicates one below from what I can see in this sketch is absolutely wrong. You have multiple blows at our occurring to the back of her head. This now starts to bring up. Ok, so was this an accident, yet I was possible for her to have slipped and fallen and or have her head hit on multiple surfaces during that slip and fall. But that's where I need to take a look at that one photo that we talk

about show her in the adult slumped over in the bathtub needle first. I I kind of want to set this up cause he out, as cape mentioned. I kind of you know like to be critical if you will of this oscar heinrich, who did some good work and then did some some goofy say, and here's a couple of photos of pine ridge you know being called in and taking a look at this scene and what you see me this is ITALY so posed for the camera, with his team and he's looking at this tiny little blood drop above the door not or he's using a stereo microscope. Looking at something on the floor, this is now where you're making me turns out a molehill system where he is probably over interpreting blood pattern at the scene, the blood pattern- discipline is actually a very little jet discipline. It's the best type of evidence in order

to determine events that happened at the scene. But sometimes examiner start focusing on my new show without looking at the big picture. So now I'm gonna go and take a look at the big picture, and this is I've been. I ask here about something about that realistically, because we ve been hearing a lot lately about how blood, spatter, evidences bank- it's not a real science, so you're saying it totally as when used correctly. It absolutely is add- and this is where you when I have reviewed cases in which there has been let's say a faulty testimony related to blood patterns at all it comes down to is the examiner, competent and in many instances the examiner is not competent, or the examiner over interpret the blood evidence, and this is where I may just to give very easy example. Let's say you have blood on your hand and you just

smeared your hand across the wall. That's going to create a type of powdered right, but they blood on your finger and you flick your finger. That's going to create a different type of pattern, Is there any way to confuse those two types of events that would create those patterns? No, no. It's very straight forward, but what ends up happening like what we see with heinrich here is he's, got this goofy eye glass, magnifier and he's looking at the single drop and it's like. No, you know this is not going to make a

difference in terms of assessing what really happened in this case. I think this is all performative. I promise that all of this is him to strike. He he loved photography. It was just him trying to get stuff for his portfolio and it's all, it's all posed and had said said, but what he's doing is really illustrating where people fall into traps with evidence at the scene. Hi, I'm lindsey, graham, the host of wonders, show american scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in us history. Presidential lies environmental disasters, corporate fraud in our newest if we look at the story of edward Snowden, a whistle blower who changed the national conversation about privacy on the internet as a contractor for the inner snowden had access to a range of top secret government rams, but, as he learned more about these clandestine operations, he came to understand a devastating secret. The government was conducting mass surveillance on its own citizens. Snowden would go on to leak more

classified documents than any whistle blower in american history. He became the subject of an national manhunt and ass. He fought to expose the truth. He would risk his own freedom and his family's wellbeing. Follow american scandal on apple podcast, amazon, music, the wonder yap or what ever you're. Listening now, listen what we clearly and ad free by joining wondering plus so next photo- and this is the one carried in georgia. Just don't you know, you'll see a little bit of the victim, but I'm a put it up on the screen now here I just want to point out the what I've done as I've zoomed in on that photo. We can see aliens, arms and then this braided ponytail right here and then ass kate meant this very large amount of blood. That's on the floor that isn't it of life, so much blood light. They said it had made it half of her blood, which I don't even think was possible. Shilling now

it's also diluted with water and we hear from the husband that you know he came in and he or she was in a bathtub and he picked her up, and so you could see where water might splash. But you so have on diluted blood pools. that are on the floor. In addition, then, there's gonna be some things that I will point out a little bit later, but on the floor, maybe a town all in the foreground as little out of focus, and this is where I am ok. What did first responders do because I need to know in order to assess how the scene was changed after the victim was found Well, I can tell you one note: is they been trial further to that she had and those are her bedroom slippers. There's one slipper there that's blood soaked. I think they took the photo exactly as when they came in. They found her, but I'm not a one hundred per cent sure paul, because this was such a classic.

era of contaminated scene. I mean there were neighbors trying to clean up blood in the kitchen. Everybody was walking. Through I mean it was. It was a big mess, forensically sure, but you know this. This photo shows there there's no evidence of clean up here, yeah and I'll get into some other aspects about this, as we get further into the story, but I just want to point out. We have two gloves on the floor right here. We have one I am glove and left hand glove. They looked like leather gloves so whose gloves are those, but they were probably is because he was working outside. He was working with blackberry brushes and he was getting scratched up all over the place. So he had. They said that he had no shirt on because they were joking that he was doing two jobs at the same time, cleaning up the backyard tat. He had no shirt on and he had left

gloves on. If I'm playing the devil's advocate David lamp since innocent, I think he will probably ran and saw her took off his gloves room on the ground, grabbed her and the rest proceeded from there. But again you know because he picked her up and he put her down in a different position. He says we don't know, we don't even know what position she was in, and that was another problem with the trial, but what we can talk about that too or young and our circle back around to some other things in this photo, because there is actually quite a lot of information, and here I have brought up yet so why don't you proceed cake? Ok, so you know there's enough for the police to say how else could she have died rather than being in a hurt by her husband so he's under arrest. They start searching the house, they look inside the bonfire and they find a ten inches long iron pipe it's in the fire. This would have been the

time he burned stuff like that. Before he burned things from his garage that people just burned anything they wanted in the thirties, I guess, and they tested, there's no blood. It's inconclusive, there's you know on it. Theirs foreign matter, but they don't know what what's happening. So when the prosecutor gets the case, he theorize as a couple things one. He think that's a lean and david got home. She wasn't feeling well, he wanted to have sex she, and now she said, my period. That's probably why I don't feel well they wake up. Next morning she takes a bath and he realizes somehow like maybe he doesn't see a maxie pad in the trash can and he realises that she's not on her period and he flies to a rage and beats her to death with a pipe. That's their theory that the massive her that's that's. Why

rearing and also he had a female friend who he denied and she denied that they were in a relationship and alien knew. They went to college together, but he had said this and flowers? At one point, she was doing something for, I think, maybe good housekeeping. It was one of those types of magazine choose a photographer and he said he said our flowers. Just to me she was a family friend, but they may add into something, even though everybody denied it more common. To their relationship. I had her journal her diary. I read through it she's nothing suspicious at all. I know that doesn't mean anything, but when there's something in there that suspicious it does mean something there Nothing in there about acrimony in any way they seem to have a really nice relationships. She said he's very romantic here, there's something really nice on valentine's day, he's a great dad, they went hiking. So you know If there is any type of an affair, I dont think that he knew about it, or maybe she would have found out about it that night. What is

She seemed to me that I'd like to hear from you all about is this idea that he flew into a rage over this missing man see bad, and so he came in two and two together and became very angry with her and he was just ass. Two carry this ten inch iron piece of power. With him, and that was it can be addressed it's a little weird. It doesn't make sense to me. It seems like a pretty weak motive by one my house, with type all the time I got a prisoner guard. I gotta keep those kids in line and make good. I mean the paper. Things me as well, because everyone knows it's not going to burn so why would he try to get rid of it in the burn thing? Yes, it makes you less. Special of him or more suspicious less. Everyone would think that the dumb way to get rid of a lead paint you know that, then why would you put it in a bonfire to begin with? I mean either way he's out. Obviously I mean, maybe I know so- made public

such me and say: don't you know the best way to do something? Something might, as I just said, and either way does it make sense that he put it in that fire paul being a man who had well, you know, from my perspective, if this pipe had been using a bludgeoning like this, it would have a fair amount of blood on an a priori, adhering hair and possibly other as you, so you throw it in the fire and then that evidence would be removed now cycle destroy the pipe, but you destroy the evidence that would suggest that the party was the murder weapon. It was inconclusive. Just a counter weapons, wise Lyman experts say this what was happening any was guilty and therefore that was his pipe and he was there doing at his age, away from him better solution which has put the pipe the bathwater and get everything off of it now and then go put it in your pipe pile like they had the thirty five While, but I mean like the idea of the idea, I feel it gets goes

and normal human processes to burn the blood as opposed to wash it off. and he's in a bathroom to me that feels like they're trying to really tie things together. that may be truly together and he did just have like if you had a box of garbage. When he dumped it all in there was a pipe in there or I dunno. Something like that. Well, I think they're looking for a weapon and a pipe is certainly a good weapon yeah. I have to explain how she ended up with no cracks in the back of her head it I will say, based on the I'd like to see photos, but at least with the sketch of her injuries, that a pipe consistent with that. eventually she has to the back of her head. Well, let me give you more details about what happened so the prosecutor hires heinrich she comes, then he looks around. He looks at the blue and he looks at the droplets any amount of blood and where was- and he looks at the sink- and he says I can't work for you. I d

I believe that this was murder. I think she slipped and fell and hit her head on the sink based on the wound patterns. I know so few guys at home could see Paul's forehead right now higher than they probably ever. Had the flu he's truly shocked. He has shocked said oh, I heard, but I am chomping at the, but I'm going to tell him the story, so he is hired by the defense of course, and He says we if you look at the way the patterns are now. This part makes sense to me Paul if you look at the back of the head and the parallel lines feel very, even write. His argument and actually a couple of pathologist I've spoken to modern I will just say that

when you're hitting someone on the back of the head with a pipe they're moving and you're not going to have these three or four perfectly parallel marks: she's, not just lying on the ground, so that was one of his arguments about blood and then I'll tell you in a little bit georgia. What do you think about that? That's a great point, also the wounds being horizontal to me signify a slip and fall more likely than being hit personally in my amateur opinion. Well, let's see what's karen's vote karen, what do you vote and I feel like I have been highly influenced by the amount of blood on that, because I wish it were a slip and fall and and there's nothing indicating in her personal diary that there is any strife whatsoever, but the amount of blood that there is theirs several who I was say: conduces laceration lacerations. Yet there is not one looking consistent. Looking parallel, like you're saying it just doesn't seem

accidental? It seems like it has a lot of intention faced on her head. Can I ask? Are there bruises on her body at all, not that I read all. What did you read? Something no idea read anything all I could assess. Was that one photo. That shows her body and I'm not going any defence of injuries, yeah defence and injuries that I read about now now the ito. Addressing, though, that the parallel marks of the last revision to the back of her head did I've worked. Bludgeoning cases set out the one case in particular, which is gonna, be a golden stay killer case, which said a great response, as was bludgeoned to death by the angel. and he has multiple clusters of linear lacerations on the back of his head, that are clustered just like this but also you see change in direction. Allergy with these clusters. So

cluster will have a grouping that are all parallel and then another cluster had another grouping, all parallel, etc, and this is showing that yes, the offender was able to strike multiple blows with the web and and the the victim's head in the same alignment and then at some point. Another cluster occurred with the weapon and victims head in a different alignment. It absolutely as possible for an offender to strike a victim multiple times in the head. happened being an alignment in this particular case. The very first blow We're talking about blows at them I'm just saying I simple protuberance. This is now the lower bone in your skull right above where your neck is. This is a Davis waiting area to receive a blow. Your eyesight, or sue you know they slip and followed hit. The back there had on the ice sometime,

it proves to be fatal because of whereas EP. Imagine the first blow good I've been fatal, are causing absolute and consciousness, and now the victim is no longer moving for the subsequent blows that finnish her off what kind of take a look at is when you look at the dynamics of combat between the offender and the victim, a feature that stands. to me about a lean. Is that braided ponytail isn't that such a great handle ford offender to ground and could you imagine while she standing up the offender grab, sat and now brings her head down and while she's in a bent over position that first blow is delivered. So this is part of

trying to assess the dynamics of offender victim interactions during the infliction of violence? These blows. There's blood spatter in this case that we haven't really talked about a well not going to go into detail outside of the fact that the blood spatter in this case is all out in the bathroom area sink is worthy door into the bathroom. Is it's not in the bathtub? so I will get into that a little bit later we are going to trial on high wrench is testifying on behalf of David lamson anaheim riches argument is that she slipped and fell and its hard to tell, but it's a very small small bathroom, so many arguments here. One is that there are simply didn't seem to be enough room for David get behind her with this pie there wasn't enough room to get back to every wall had bits of blood on it,

including a jacket, it's not a robot, was kind of a jacket, bathroom jacket that was hanging on the inside of the door. So when she was in about up she closed the door more, there was a crack there right. So if this is a slip and fall, the blood went up his jacket as well. so on every wall. There's no void for the killer would have been the blood touched every wall according to migration. These photographs, so is argument, was well. Why did David Lamson first of all, where's? They cast off blood right when you hit some one in the boy comes backwards, where's all that there is little droplets in mosul, what is contained on the ground so when he took the stand that was his major or

Are you guys watching pulse various right now he's really? What did you see? This is urgent as he is not by not at all, not at all, I'm trying to think of what I should address at this point in time. What do you think that I do want to address? Is the photos that to kate herself acquired, show the blood spatter on multiple surfaces out in the bathroom? in order to produce blood spatter, you have to have a blow to a pooled blood source, so ominous You threw a hypothetical scenario, and I use this when I talked to citizens academies all the time I could take a baseball that this is a high energy weapon. I could hit you in the head

as hard as I could. I am not going to produce blood spatter cause, there's no pooled blood source. Ike would kill you with that blow, but now that I've hits you I've created that laceration. Maybe I've crushed the skull, and I have now got cerebral arterial blood also bubbling to the surface. The next time I hit you with that bat. Now you get the poor, that's where you get the blood spatter. So think about the scenario of an accident she slipped in the bathtub and hits the back of her head. Is there a pooled blood source at that point? No, no, no way is that going to produce spatter would require another slip and another fall into same area on her head to produce blood spatter but she's

under this theory she's in the bath siberia, there's no spatter from the photos that are available to me to show that their spatter in the bath, the baron, it's all out in the bath room area, This is a problem for these slip and fall theory that Heine rich is proposing. Ladies What do you think I love to learn? Yeah honestly, I waited doesn't you're right, it does it. It wouldn't the first, the first hit to the head wouldn't produce that it's fascinating, the other heavy art is the only time it does this with explosive level, energy like a gunshot or a bomb obviously where there massive disruption and blunt objects have different. I will call him energy levels. A short pipe is different than a baseball bat, a baseball bat in so much more devastating. The blood spatter from that

and the injuries to the victim are so much more magnified than from a shorter, less energetic way, Is there any whirlpool in which you think this could have been an accident, or are you looking at these photos and higher inches drawing and just saying conclusively like you would be comfortable presenting this to a prosecutor and saying go after this guy, while right now, I am comfortable thin actively saying this is a homicide. Dad then we'll give information ass to why I think somebody com, to her is responsible for the homicide, ok, famously is usually on the mysterious one third of the tables on you now you gave me to play around with ok. Well, let's say now that David lamson took the stand. He was terrible, he d it was not good understand. It was not charming. He had no idea what happened. He just said

miss my wife and that's pretty much. It and people did question a lot of things. They questioned how, we could have a conversation about Simon icing, a car in the back yard and the liver tempt test and frankly, they could feel the war. or in it confirms that within an our she had died of the police arriving so that fit into his time line and that he could kill and come outside and within an hour an hour out there having conversations with people and then have this woman unexpectedly show up and let her an and it just seemed all too much for some people. The prosecutor reminded people there david was an actor. He was convinced me and he was a community theatre actor. So I'm not quite sure that's got to be something that's going to convince people that this man was really trying to get one over on the jury. But regardless, at the end of the whole trial. The jury went back.

And you know immediately- took a vote and it was eleven to one to convict eleven to want, but it was hung well. So this is happens, and maybe Paul you have a nifty story about this. You might not, but later on after the trial, ended, And after they rendered a verdict, one of them when the jury, the person who was hanging. The jury was a woman came and later said that she was gonna to essentially sue the state because she had been threatened and pressure in the jury room to change her vote right and it was admitted that's what they did, so they all spent three days pressuring her to change her votes. I can't believe you're doing as they were. in her and saying: don't you know what happened the last guy who hung a jury and then this mortal or went free and people burned? his house- and so she was really intimidated- they didn't even really discuss the evidence. What they did was the wish I thought Paul you would appreciate. Is they try to recreate the accidental fall

nine. That's really! That's truly balls you to try to do that. They had people standing on a table and an falling backward it's in trying to move around in which way she would have hit her head to the dunes arena. I mean that's crazy to me. I have a question: did it ever come up that someone else was the murderer raised that an option? If we all think it's martyr well, because the only to people at the time since they were able to say she had died. within an hour of the police arriving no one had seen in any also the house, except for the real estate agent and the person there, and it was David, and that was it so you know I had found. There were a lot of instances on stamp. Her brother had been a whole rash of burglaries and some peeping, toms and stuff that had happened. Nothing to actively ages was David was the most likely suspect. A moment husband did it. You will say that all the time we don't say it all the time ever several crime show we watched, says the numbers right it in

and so eventually, this woman on the jury is worn down and She finally says okay and he's convicted He is sentenced to death and sent to san quentin and, as you know, that's not the end of the story. Also, oh okay. So this is interesting to me, then, obviously, first, when you say that one sure who was holding out was threat. ended intimidated was that by the prosecution at all, or was it by the other jurors. Other jurors, ok, pressure within the jury, room yeah- and this is california. They had death on the table for this.

sweden. I am not familiar with the murder statutes from the nineteen thirty's in California. Do you know how they had delineated special circumstances to justify the death penalty or did they back then? Now they didn t. Look at me. I'm ok! Now he was sent was called, I think, execution row. He went right there, it was, it was very swift, welcomed, even say anything. He had no comment. Essentially. Can I just point one thing out her in how you are saying here there. She died within the hour. He was talking to neighbours. Pull me this point earlier, but if this was planned and in any way talking to name as would be the best thing you could do it right at the outset, I mean casual my shirts off I'm doing some yard work most innocent thing. He could be doing you get witnesses now, look at you having a normal day, whether you just did it for our plan,

to do it. Wouldn't you say your average sociopaths psychopath could have those conversations with no one catching on that something either bad, is about to happen or did happen like what That is part of the plan. He knows the real estate agent might pop by right. There could be you're all playing into his scheme. I offer my perspective. Yeah see it on there's plenty of examples. I think a notable example in some ways the case out here in colorado with christopher watts. Right now. I this guy is horrible case killed his wife and I think there were otters two little girls too little earlier now. If you watch him, do you know what this being the interviewed by media. Yet oh, he comes off as being for me, I am missing my wife and my daughters and he's the killer again these guys are able to be convincing. and taken on this role and they go in the case thinking they can do that. These

the types of individuals that will represent themselves at trial, they're narcissistic, and so they think they're better than anybody. They can fool anybody, and I don't know about the husband in this case, and I can't say based on what I'm seeing that there was a ton of planning for this homicide. I can't say if this was in a fit of rage vs. This was when you're showing a lot of malice, a forethought, but it does not surprise me that if he is the one that killed eileen, that he would be able to pull off convincing others hey. I was just out working in my yard, and Now I have to let out this blood curdling shriek it out to convince the people outside that I just walked in on something hermetic jack, as there is something very performative to a shriek so loud. You would hear it all the way through the house into the you know. Like I'm just trying to picture there would be almost like an implosion for of light frozen, silent gasping,

not being able to breathe. That kind of thing is, I mean. Obviously, we have talked about. There's no right way to do Anything especially in these extreme and totally bizarre circumstances, but as a man in the nineteen thirties that to be sort of an unusual reaction weather your nature or environmental. You don't upbringing. I never have the most screen, no matter what I'm dealing with be at one, I think that's probably most men, at least in our society. Today I was so. Where do we stand Let's take a strong pole right now. Where do we stand with what happened with David lamson? So if we're pulling me he's too de and not guilty things apart in the guilty. harlem, we think he's guilty is lacerations cracks in the back of the head, where the boy landed. She had. These braids may be that gave her these even parallel lines on the back of her head that he had an

opportunity? There was only to people in the house. He had an alibi of swords, he was able to disappear in and now there were people outside, maybe the scream the cry, was performative and and on the other side, the not guilty, as you have several experts at least thirty say this actually to us, looks more like the markings that fit perfectly the riches of the sink. That's what they think think Hoddan the think not the bathtub, even though she is found in the bathtub yes she's found in the matter, but the sink is about two feet from her. So hi enriches idea was that she slipped and fell on. There's three ridges on are we haven't? You Actually do this whole me we're not gonna do man, we know, and others are saying

but there is no gap in the court has revealed- and we all say what we think so far in the war and then you'll give us thereas yeahs tell me, I don't think, there's enough evidence to bring it to trial. I think its weapons using its southern fall again in carrying your more cynical, I more cynical, also just cons razor, like you said it, the simplicity of it, where the other option, aside from a southern fall, is that third party came into the house at the perfect time held her silently without david hearing in the backyard and then went back out and dinner. Take anything or didn't. I don't know if they investigated that part, but like that to me, everything else seems a little out there and the slip and fall. I just don't I think they would go one two three four, the way they are on that autopsy, even if you were falling it feels like it would be in different areas. Your head, it looks like she perfectly fell,

I don't know, I'm not sure it just seems like it so harm. The reason I like true crime is because the possibility of him act we doing in it, which there is a monster hiding in plain sight, talking, neighbours and breaking up his leaves. While then, he just as thing and thinks he's gonna get away with. That is what I'll always pick is its more interesting down. Well, story gets a little bit more interesting at the end to say you get to hear that Paul. What do you think now, because I enriches our was she fell. She had the sink with the two or three ridges and that to him it matched up with the back of her head and then she fell, but the sink was very I live in a place in new york. a literally. I could take a bath and spit in the sink at the same time that it was no big deal and it sounds like it was that kind of a bathroom but still the pathologist. I spoke to said that a lot of blood for a slip and fall. I dunno. So what do you think Paul you're? You are my. I don't want you to ever You are my number one forensic scientists.

dude, so whatever you say, I'm going with it looks really beautiful or so so this wash basin is two and a half feet away from the bathtub. So imagine if you're in the bath and you slip and fall to were now you're hitting your head on that wash basin, where Is your body mass located where's assent of your mass you're not going to fall back into that bathtub. You are going to be falling onto the floor. Karen and Georgia have not I'm not going to divulge how tall each of you are, but you're, not tall people and wish you were at their height, very tiny. Even me, you know I'm I'm five! Ten. If I were to slip and fall out of this bathtub to a point where I'm hitting the back of my head on something and and I'm not

gonna, be standing right on the edge of this bathtub, I'm to be standing in the middle, the bathtub. So something that's three. Two three and a half feet away: I'm not falling into the bathtub and its oriented wrong that he ground her. You do have an alteration to the scene for sure any wouldn't put her back in the bathtub. Unlike slumber. Over now dwell the wash basin for me is a huge mess under this theory. By an add on offers. Heinrichs there was one that proposed it, but I don't see that as even an option, the only option from the slip in full would be the side of the bathtub itself, but again I go back to the injuries multiple lacerations. You have blood spatter that is out by the door to the bath room, to where the Tao rack is, which is now a distance away from the bathtub. This is,

negating blows are occurring to a pooled blood source out in the bathroom, not in the bath tub multiple blows occurring out in ass room. For me, this is definitively homicide and base and what I am seeing in that photo. I absolutely confident that the homicide was committed by somebody who naturally thought they would be a suspect and is this a time where I could maybe divulge a little? But yes, please not unfamiliar role for me is usually I'm daytime devise honourable dragons Share my screen here I'd, so we everybody can. What I'm looking at now yap yet are so has, as I mentioned before there is,

is a tremendous amount of blood. That's on the bathroom floor and it's been diluted it with water. You can see over here by the victims. Hands swear euro, this blood pool which has been disrupted there's one that's intermixed, but you can see over near the bathtub, where you have blood that has flowed from the pool and has accumulated showing that the us? This is a? U have a significant amount of bleeding that has occurred onto this bathroom floor now are victim whose bleeding injuries are to the back of her head she's in the bathtub. Take a look at these kind of very dilute rivulets, going down the side of a man of some streaks these are dilute flows. blood. This is bloody water. That's gone down the bathtub

her bleeding injury is up high here We know that the husband did move her body She was in the bathtub when he goes in. Right now is what he said these flows. no way shape or form can account for the amount of blood pooling on the bathroom floor? In addition, These these coagulated masses of blood when blood pools to conceal you know, and so the outside of the blood that's exposed. The oxygen in a thick blood poor will start to just kind of four may skin. And then the entire thickness of the blood pool we kind of congeal. What, We see all the time as we have somebody leg and though the street, let's say it's a gang bang homicide. We have a huge pool of blood around the victims had in that blood, congealed when we move that body the place into the body bag. That disrupts this concealed

blood when I'm seeing here is that I had a blood pool that was on floor where the blue. had congealed and then was disrupted, and I am I, not account for the blood pool forming the floor with the victim in the bathtub. This tells me the view Them was lying on the floor for a period of time, bleeding out from her head injuries and long enough for them blood to congeal, and then she was moved into the bath tub. This is a stage to crime scene, any time an offender stages are seen. That means add offender in his mind feels that he naturally would be a suspect. So trying to make that scene. Look like something. It's not in this case. Try to make a homicide, look like an accident. So now go down too well who had access

inside this house that morning Paul can ask one question: absolutely how long does it usually take blood to congeal after it starts to pool depends on environmental conditions. He had off you're you're you're outside in the cold, it's going to be slower than if you're, if it's outside in a you know a a warmer environment for your inside, but but yelp. This is bought palo alto time of year, but in essence it takes some time but the initial aspects of the the the blood congealing it actually starts right away that thin skin starts to form on the outside the as the blood sits there. It starts to hard and at an ipad to dig through it many many times to try to recover bullets for other forms of evidence within this blood pool, I'm very very familiar with this so and I'm looking at this scene, I'm going okay, she died on that bathroom floor. The blood spatter in this bathroom tells me she was beat hit on the head.

multiple times out in the bathroom, not in the bathtub, and then he was placed in their path. and some of the water that, in that bathtub ended up, flowing down onto the floor once or body was placed in there and disrupting this blood poor state crime scene. In right now, husband he's in the house. Out in the yard, for me, huh, number one suspect, based on what I am saying by it. I'm on board now changed my mind What flop really well georgia! I read I like that. Is there anything to do with the fact that her hair isn't wet and were bleeding initially, from that position. She's in her hair would be way more bloody than it is for this house from a photo video. It is good question and it is a limited vote, although the original photo that care provided proposal, but not much more

of her. You know for me the absolute lack of blood on, arms may be. The exception of smears is significant, almost as it may be. Clean up had occurred at some point. You think about her she's bleeding heavily in this bloody bath water you're going to have that at hearing in it's gonna, be pressed down their arms. Her arms looked dry to me this. This idea that he's actually coming in and lifting her up after she finds her dead and the bad guys. I'm cold bs on I'm saying that, once she was dead and he placed her in the bathtub, he placed her this position and she's stayed in that position. He did it I have two from a performance damn point go through the physical act of actually touching her chances are the What on his shirt was from the it should or homicide act, and then nobody noticed

it until after he comes out and he comes up with the story I thoroughly dispute. hi, enriches theories and conclusions on this case. This is definitively a homicide and it's a staged. Homicide and primes aspect is husband. Well, I think David lamson was certainly. unfortunately for home convicted in sentence to san quentin and never particularly talked about this right and his family stood by him. He had two sisters who stood by her he always talked about how much he loved a lean. His daughter baby stayed with his stir for a very long time and she essentially began raising her just as a kind of into the story and a little bit of I wonder what happened

even lamson, had a lot of friends who were very powerful who thought he was innocent and they wrote a book of the evidence full of pathologies, who independent pathologists, who said? Listen? We really do think this was a sudden fall but of course we're here paul- why that was incorrect and maybe Words is limited knowledge in the nineteen thirty. Certainly there was well. Let me address that real, quick because, of course, pathologists it out because they have medical training. People put a lot of weight on their statements. Very few pathologists actually have crime scene, reconstruction, expertise, very new, actually go to crime since their expertise, This is a follow gi, fair, so they're not taking into account all this other evidence that is present that people there involved in homicide, investigation and crime scene investigation see day in and day out, I'd. Never

put any weight on a pathologist, rendering an opinion as to what happened at the crime scene outside of. Tell me what the injuries the victim had and then I will correlate how those injuries impact the physical evidence at the primacy so wouldn't ultimately happening is is is appealed. Of course, it goes all the way to the california states, supreme court, the justice Is there discuss it? They disagree theirs it kind of down the middle. They actually also strangely try to do a reenactment, which they are also not allowed to do. You're not allowed to do or an accident just a random reenactment in the jury room. The justices also did that and essentially said can't do a reenactment without killing someone with a sudden fall. So they actually gave him a new trial, so he went to trial again and time.

was allowed to do a reconstruction with the accident theory? It hung the jury and so Did we officially have a hungary, and the prosecutor looks the case and says I can't do this again, This is warrant we're not coming up with new evidence. Nothing ends up shake loose for him. There's no new evidence of anything, and so they d and to prosecute him again. even lamson, while he was in prison, was a very smart man and while he was in prison, he writes. A lot about the other death row. Inmates who were with him he wrote a book was a nonfiction book is actually pretty good, and it became a new york times by seller and it was widely review. food and he wrote a fictional book and then he became a screen rider and he live a really quiet life. He raised his daughter. He got remarry three or four years later and his daughter As you know, he never said.

thing unkind about my mom and he said that was it so he lived. It turned out so full of a very quiet life after he was not prosecuted any any longer Those are the prime. So what do you think about that? I don't like it I now I dont think you do like. I said I I can't determine whether or not there is really what, in this day and age, would amount to first rate murder with well special circumstances, based on what I know, but tat, at least with I'm assessing. I think he is a prime suspect in this homicide, and you know, if he was responsible for aliens bludgeoning, then he should never have had that opportunity at a second life real. Now, that's my name s and I keep coming back to that. No shirt outside shirt inside immediately has blood on it and calling you said. I think that blood was there before and the fact that he did

have assured on outside Kennedy had assured on he went outside the shirt was going He hung up on the fence. He got super sweaty than that ain't, I claim and their people sure onto go back now no, I mean, I think, that's a good point. There are a lot of little details about the case that in a seemingly and that's what I think interesting about this cases that we can talk about him being a great actor or him, you know, being. How could you ever have done that then gone on and he talked about cutting down weeds. It seems you know. Is he a sociopath is in his psychopath may really what this comes down to is. What is the evidence? Tell you and that's really what but I say all the time it doesn't really matter what we think it that's what we prove right and so what's one things that so enlightening to me about these historical cases. When you have somebody like Paul who has all of this depth of knowledge and credible knowledge, particularly

this case the crime scene? Reconstruction, I think, is very important. Then I did two I mean. I think its nature you're saying why? Why why? Why did this happen or whether they haven't I this is where, but really it is looking at the evidence, the forensic evidence and saying ok. Well, this the evidence is saying we are so that that right, Paul broader, that's what happened down to, but it's also making sure that the the individuals that are interpreting the parents have the experience and expertise to do a properly correct, and that's where we're yet I've seen it over and over again, you know the failings within the various forensic disciplines is that you have individuals that don't have the sperience, our expertise and like somebody like with pine ridge who possibly has yet a fair amount of laboratory expertise based on vetoed nineteen thirty's era technology.

but how many homicide scenes was he called out to in the middle of the night as an active, csi or homicide investigator. This is not its were not getting into where its forensic science. This is what we are talking about a type of expertise that is developed by those of us that actually did that. Add that x, p place into the ability to properly interpret what we are seeing based on what we have experienced before, for you know- and this is where we get into in katyn- I recorded so talking about it out for its experience and junk science and stuff, but there is an aspect to expertise that plays into these cases and that expertise also plays into the trial aspect. Man, and so this is where you pull in a forensic scientist who worked in an academic institution but as

never been on a homicide seen in his life from just being called out in the middle of the night and actually watching the blood pool form. It doesn't have the experience oh he's, using magnifying glass to look at a single droplet in this crime scene, listen you out of my friends kinds and it's a little body. I tell you this case is really be it. It's really kind of taken him down a notch in my thinking, but the point of this book is that this was the dawn of a rent eggs at all right now like this is still the time, and we ve all talks about this- that, unlike the stories that we ve done on the road or whatever, but the idea that

they didn't know not to let the neighbours and to their I'm saying I mean that's to me. What is so compelling about historical now. True crime is what they were up against because they didn't know about these. These tell em scientific things that so they were, it was almost like. It was partially scientific and then partially They were still completely in the dark, having that's it loved warlike heinrichs big enemy was the guy who was always saying you. Could I dunno I criminality in handwriting, and so the he would always bring up handwriting and it would do I've heinrich zeke cause he's like that's, not so indifferent labour, basically the battle he was in at the time when it was just so early days for everything where it was night. Now now, let's get the facade in here are coming in shove. Rethink everything in anybody could be an expert, but just like anything that

than ever lucian, yellow and add what I did back in the early nineties versus how I would approach a case today is differ. China now sits on the streets on the spectrum for sure and then be people yelled the years from now will take a look at what I did and go oh god, you know they don't be going follows really screwed this one guy. I agree, really screwed this up, but I will say in this case I'm on solid ground, so what this shows more than anything, is what a great podcast cast, it sounds as if I can bring it back to the beginning for real. What's more interesting than This conversation, I mean like truly look at what the detectives in the thirties the eighteen, hundreds or the sixteen hundred had to. Basically, even approaching. Trying to solve crime what they are up against, so what I'll tell you? I spent three years researching the book, the mere controller book- and you know when you spend that much.

case and I've read too Three thousand word transcript for David lamson and you re through all of that stuff, and you think you know the case and then he will. You bring an expert, and like Paul, who sheds a whole new light on it. So I think that it's really it's so an official for somebody like me, who knows a lot about the history of forensics to talk to someone who know so much about the present day. Forensics. I think that's what makes it citing for me and Paul likes during a lot, and I think that he misses to me, though, that he doesn't have a particular time period, his eyes, attached to the p, when that time periods, I think in the next probably in about five months,

I ask him if he has now a favorite time period of history, because maybe we'll have exposed to so many different people and different life situations, but it really is it all just keeps coming back around to. We can learn things from these stories and I love telling him a good story that is just like. I get a kick out of hearing him. Gas in the family way possible, yeah girl, he does a great job and she keeps me on my heels and and of course these cases are amazing and- and there are older cases, but the reality is that when you start taking a look at him that there is no difference from what happened to the victim's back. Then you know what they are and are dead or what the vendors motives were to what's happening. To me, He had also it's it's absolutely relevant for sure. It's just great lessons it really. We are so glad when you guys first pitch. This idea we were just like. Oh, my

hell yeah they play. I why what could be better? So it's so exciting that you guys that it's happening it's on its feet. You guys have several. in the can at this point, yeah right and now we just get to plug it and we get to bring it up to the world because it's really it's just really fascinating. Of course I already plugged american sherlock, that's on you by the latest book. All that is wicked. Again. a story of murder and the race to decode the criminal mind it's a whole book about edward relief and that's available for pre order right now. Everybody knows the scene is by gas prior to really matters for books, so go order it. It comes out I'll, tell her fourth, and of course pause best selling memoir unmasked, my life sobbing, America's cold cases is

well now. It is so incredible. Everyone is raving about it, PA great job. Thank you make sure you check that out. You guys are doing a great job and thank you for being on the show today with Larry bones. You guys at premieres on Wednesday september, fourteenth right here on exactly right, so make sure you follow it wherever you listen to podcasts. Is that the right wording, into the trailer which is out now go, listen to the trailer and then a buried bones on wednesdays. It's your new favorite podcast. That's right! Thanks so much for being on, thank you. We appreciate it. Thank you very much thanks you guys, woohoo Elvis. Do you want a cookie this has been an exactly right. Production are singer: producers are hannah, kyle, frightened and natalie rank. Our producers are a hundred this epoch. Was engineered and mixed by andrew. Even our research, is marin, modulation, email

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