On this year-end legal extravaganza, Karen and Georgia talk to comedian and actual law school graduate Guy Branum about what makes murder murder. Plus more True Crime trading cards!
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
This is exactly right. you're gonna do something don't have assets, speaking of which this is my favorite. Did you get that Stephen? Are we recorded show? Oh, my god, welcome to my favorite murder and
twenty sixteen episode of them in this fuckin shit toll of a year. Now, if you had a great year king, gradual fuck inhalations, how did you do it press stop and go how fine with you're an gulf that our new musical yeah towing to camp? Did you hear the song that Techno song that a dude made? What our part you haven't heard this no way out of our past. The hope, though, came the wit of Odin, also such guilt for the amount of things people do and make, and whatever that I am always like. Oh, I miss that three months ago here in a day, because this is the best thing that ever happened right for this. Yes, you ready for this done, and this is from Alex Alex J Squire on Twitter. Oh that name sound me then
not rise and organ there's a photo of his car and you press play this. Isn't a king and
John Wayne can John West. Oh, my god, I can't solve smiling. That's that's how you think. That's you now to EU announcing the sharks accordingly showed, who you're doing and I go, and you go home and I got it just goes and goes like that. That is the thank you Alex JUICE Squire, oh, my god, I was rather back. Are you friends, a dip low, because that is incredible than you had your hearing? A very familiar lack cannot Oreo notice alive. You know and love. That's right. We actually have in our rap down twenty sixteen holidays. Spectacular anything goes any who the fuck knows our friends and our guest, Mr Guy Branda Pillow, grew to be here so excited. I want to try to so bad debts shot from the areas. It is Margaret Thatcher, speeches, acid deaths, love this so much. You is early terming, leaving lucky with your friend, all over fuck say like yours, we'd like you're, the people say it and your leg yea like its raising its weariness, crazy into which their response to all of this is she just described the brutal murder nutriment. This approach will actually, I have something to surprise it with care and what more gas? Since you know me hearing my voice with Techno musicale hide. It is like that made twenty seventeen for me totally serbian fact. This here's a second best. You can precarious an extra. That's! Ok! So I got a package in Maputo Box and it just said it was to me so I opened it and I'm sorry, I don't worry better than a glittery almost made me cry was really depressed today and then I read it and made me feel better. It's basically this girl, whose like thank you guys so much I went to Chicago Show. I also told my my mom now secretly what lessons the pod caused and she's a cheese lives in Alabama and she's, a crow rich White republican, southern back to Mother closet vanished. You can't tell anyone about ass, their name and the girl found out that we reduce Chicago interested immediately about my mom plane ticket. Is your name is healthy? Why and look what she gave us over?
well, your Oshea efficiency works like a company. She works like a pin, beauty, private company and she sent us a whole line of sweet honesty. Oh you, my oh, my guide. It is this. The original is this: how they present marketing? I was ill around. The odyssey from the lab shall ever be used. I now believe on sweet honesty. Yeah knows that a real thing was it a real real? That's why they were alive. There was a thing she had. Basically, it was like you know, been loves baby, soft, perfume from the seventies like if you had a teacher to that that this was a bronze version which was sweet honesty. Let me say that campaign her twenty and one of these looks like oh, my god, with this. This is what they sell now, because this looks like I remember likely. Odor Ethel, now old deodorant looks like theatre from the senator it's. This is
I mean this is the progress that made me try to figure out how my mom could listen. Podcast loves true crime, so much we gotta get Debbie on board the import. I don't know how we're gonna. Do you remember when you ve got to buy your parents, an ipod to get them like a download, a bunch of fuckin shit? But what is wrong she put drawer. I honestly feel like I need her greatest heads and burn some cities for giving the EU. That is the way to visas easier, that's not a lot of having to touch snappings, slug things and at the same time and some cities for debate at the same time that my dad figured out how to limit listen if high costs- and that was a mistake, I'm trying to find Chelsea sweater, because I want to get her. I'm already, I think, might might have figured out how to listen upon chasm undecided. This one wasn't forehead like it. So K is, moreover, nervous guy this guy, but I like I just wanna, listen a man tie lover. Yeah women are so boring. Can I sprays and sweet on saps either you gotta have it eagerly. I got my grammars even lady, showing up was one of the most exciting things that could have Avon Ladys, whether it just makes me think of Edward Caesar had re. That was a real thing. I remember doing what was it wasn't ate? It wasn't Avon, but there is another one that was like that. I mean it was Avon. We went to a party of it at my aunt. Genes has one time and the way this lady was explaining how you had to buy all of this product, because if you used a bunch of different brands on your face together, it was like Chemical warfare on Europe's biggest bullshit I've. Ever I was twelve years old sitting at the table going bowl or everyone would have their face burned. By now twelve year old Kara was like changes. Call you I don't know shit, I don't think so. It's smart, smart wording was very effective. It wasn't Jaffa, but it was like one of those brands or is kind of like it's. Free standing beauty be no kind of slightly pyramids game number of women from a high school who ended up in multi level. Margaret and her name is Chelsea Young and she's on Twitter is Chelsea, and then L E, a u and she's a second she's from Neighbour Rockville, Illinois, yeah she's, a secular, vital own groups from oh, my God is not always get me so that I just literally inhaled it. She said
oh that's a baby, patrie harder. It smells like baby powder, diaper literally eyes, adorable fifteen year olds. Its nose like a teenage baby, but which is what everybody wants is widely men are attracted normal heterosexual, marriage attracted, and she also said that during the ship alive show her friend that there are with how to go outside. She was sick with diplomatic outside and barf in the parking lot, the came back and fuckin stuck out. Yeah like she was like we were fucking and wish them a photo of her love them, and it was evening when the flu of Budweiser Tall boys, because I've had that same several times in my life. Ok guy is a lot is then allow us, oh yeah, that's so it's over time. We brought year on those pretences nets rate. So, like you guys, you talk about law. Things got tired of murder. You turn what murder we talk about them with a lot of confidence, even though we are conducting a breakthrough.
Here I say no to any idea what the dimension of first and second degree murders intent. One care I warmly I don T, remember you're you're right is in tat. Level is basically so like. First rumour requires premeditation, re establishment really planning, that's, lastly, just lag being in a right enough mines to be like, even for a moment like I want to kill this person, then doing it like immediately after a year I mean you, you do need to like both have the men's, rare and the act happiness or what's that at the same time, I don't know he's mine in telling my state of mind. So I thought, Minister, I am your period set out real master key area, so second secondary murderers, horrible, secondary murder, is either
like your passions were raised by. Unlike that, the paradigm is you see your wife fucking somebody else you either kill him or her or
at the moment in the moment in the moment or like you you're like somebody, starts a fight with you. They dont use deadly force. You are trying to defend yourself and Ascalon, so you and you kill them. Those are secondary. Emerging specifically, murder is useful, like the worst things like that, dude on our own are not an island. What was the genuine any down? Any Germany do that when you yes or the guy who killed Harvey Milk, I almost got Dan Brown on take about it. I must say that now and then I don't talk about really good name. Is he basically said like I was so freaks out by being run gay people in so many twinkle in Iraq? Save my, and so am I also like. Ok, he got fired and he got pissed off and came back. Isn't that premeditation, though I mean this in all, depends on what the jury believes in areas like the jury is so willing
comes to elect a gag. I hit me and then I killed her. I mean you're doing six years. Instead of lack, I decided to kill some guy, which is like fifteen to lie if they can, if they can empathize with you yeah you're, better, I'm so split. Like second remark, is this terrible situation where, like it's completely screwed over from women, because in the like seven days they tried to sell this idea of battered wife syndrome, thing is: is that light burning, bad running bad, yet another they firefox it made for tv movie called burning bank plays letting based on a real story. This woman was so terribly abuse. I remember watching it with my mom and at one point I mean they is incredibly graphic of basically showing what domestic violence hurry looks like it's incredibly intense, but it was on it like eight o clock at night on ABC or whatever, and I remember one time among us. I think you should go out of the bag, but it had no, of course not. I was just like out of my way, lady, like a standing close or the tv, but it was basically to try to show people this whole thing of, like yeah, knock your wife around a shudder up as you it's like in my mind when I was a kid. It was like its romantic because he loves you so much so passionate and you basis has its intense relationship and then you see the reality of it. This is just a brutal fucking. It's the leading and an awful cracking someone across the mouth, because she's lippy is not a funding to save your friends in the bar. When, actually it's a horrible pattern because you are abused and once it starts, it can't stop because you're in this, like in a rage, fit and you're a person up like they're a man and then if you are doing our older and you're in a good relationship and the thought of like events when we get in a fight which happens him, this fuckin smacking me because I he got not like that would be. That would change by world and the fact that this is a normal thing for people bothers me summer. But the thing is what's a fascinating. Is it works really quick social? So at night she burnt his bed. While he was in a tough, then she got all afraid when she went. Tat are core boy, but the thing is it like observe. How we learn more school, like basically is the terrible thing is for lack of secondary murder is generally do grabbing a gun right there, or it has to be sort of like within the same window of time that his murder sort of, like act of passion, happens. But women who have been beaten, don't do that spread they stew banana weeks later three years and they just finally like brig and like shoot him or burn the better, whatever they like so uniformly. Buttered wife syndrome was rejected by the courts as a thing like it's. It's almost like my idea, like it's even worse, because they're going through years and years of constant talk,
sure and having their minds fuck with cause, they never know how someone's gonna react and so they're, not even in their right mind. You know when their planning beforehand, things or creepy about all of this is that so many of these ideas were built in sixteen hundreds in England, wind, like things that were very immediate, we understood, but the notion of sort of like a long simmering like psychological torture. Nobody understood Gazelle died when there were thirty four, and also that men so had the MIKE that it was like when they would have to understand how a woman but interpret abuse and end approach it as opposed to help it would feel or how they would react to which they would be able. That's not how it's done as opposed to that's, not how maybe men do it or how in it to the individual areas beyond your wife is legal. Like Bulgaria was able, as the Bible can I say this really quick. Just everyone knows the guy Brantome is a lawyer, the reason that we're having a target them credential. We know all this is that you are legally a lawyer. I graduated from University of Minnesota lost. One two thousand pound is amazing, which means I am an expert on the law of murder and other things in the same way that can, in Georgia, experts have no in a much better way that we finish x on this. I haven't done this thirteen year is basically just what I remember how good guy got put legs from that lets cop on over two murders, best buddy rape and understand that lack in
in common law, and of like the origin of our entire legal system, is a horrible construction of this situation where it has to be a violent act. It has to be against someone other than your wife like that year, old school laws and there have been many laws that try to sort of lake,
things like that intimidation, you know, and a woman going along with things to not get murdered, shows that she gonna like she didn't fight, so it wasn't really right. You know like that kind of thing were the dish her pants would have been hard to take off, so she must have been consenting to. Basically, one interesting thing that you guys like comes up on the shore lot is in some search. You still have rape laws that have been updated, but in other states there was a thing in the fifties called the model penal code where they sort of try to make the law reflect the war that we living now a little bit more, and so that's what the difference between like first every second degree and third degree. Sexual assault are and he's ever.
The serious issues and it's weird here, man talk about them. Sorry I had to creepy as criminal professor, like a man and his sixties, and it was constantly saying things that you are like dont say at last: stop like he was around before committees. How you can tell you that you worst of them yes always array yesterday were me: where is our number one found were only as large, no Roy price swindle, which is essentially saying if you promise to pay a prostitute man at the end, your like nope, that's, not rape, which is like a common law in many states are sort of leg figured stuff like that out and then the other one was a voice again, I'm sorry for when it comes to. sexual violence and age. There comes a point where mental state doesn't matter. If you did it so like based,
you can't say, but she looked eighteen, but you cannot say, but she looked chain which was most chilling thing to hear. I dont understand so way, so you couldn't say that she looked at the agency, you didn't know, and so it's not statutory array of wonder I should be saying. Is this man? Was there
rape expert flagrantly. Was this bold like six in more ways than one sixty five year old, slander, slander, wake went to Harvard was leg had ridden like several books about it, but was talking about it this way, and it was just like no that's what's wrong with the law. Yes, all of these laws were written by that guy who talk about back end statute, I mean with comes up and Karen's eyes. I can stop it, but statue to limitations is like my biggest like anything. But murder has statute limitations, yes, and the like. That comes to an idea of lack after a certain period of time. You you, like you, do it's after you find out that the injury occurred, the does the statute of limitations, and, twenty years later, you can be like a written there. We wouldn't have passed such limitation. Well, the thing is, you knew for all of that time, but if it was something like
you didn't know that something had been stolen from you or you know. If there was a body and it was never reported, and likewise we found the body and related to nothing than you have like three or five or however many years like us, it's murder, so that what does it just make? I feel like Sunday we're all gonna be like the fact was that about by kidnapping IONA on. I have a question for you. I'm always wondered like I got myself about. What I would do is if you had to go to trial, for something back, let's say, would you want a jury or which you just want a judge? First, aren't you as understand what the difference between those two things are not really them and of people and Rob S one as a jury, and one is the judge to the thing is the idea is that in all situations you have a finer of law and a finer, a fact so lack
a jury defined or of law, is always the judge cause their official and they know what the law as finer fact you can either have it be a judge or you can have it be a jury and
it's like the horrible thing about having to law school. Is the kind of would trust a judge as find her a fact more, but the thing is is in a criminal case, you can't get it judges, a fund or a fact, really yeah it, while the avenue of writer during trial. So could you wave one see? This is how much I don't remember. That thing is, is money you personally? I think this is the age. No, I guess it would go with a jury, because the thing is, if I had done it, a jury is easier to lady. You know convenience of like that. How I yeah- and you know, there's the wonderful thing that we have this presumption of innocence and we have a thing against double jeopardy, which means you know if you just get them to even just mistrial three times Senor off like it there, but other things so interesting about listening to your pod cast is strong presumption of innocence, which is a thing I love does lead to a lot of people. Getting do we then later find out were horrible people I mean it's. A shooting has its like, though, there's double jeopardy but like it just because this person was terrible, unmolested children doesn't mean it killed as other cat near they, but it still shouldn't they there's a great thing that circumstantial evidence is evidence. Relic of you guys are attacks like I guess you do. You guys do with lay down and stuff like that. It's not a cases with better, but that we talk about their just try to sort of central Asia and you'd. You do how that thing of
beyond reasonable doubt? Ranches, like kind of because it means you need a lot of circumstantial evidence. But there is also the weird thing of link: it is just these twelve people kind of deciding at which means that, like me, Jerry instructions are always the most important thing. Yeah jury instructions are like a judge laying out. Why are they like five clean questions that you need to ask to figure out whether this was the person who committed the murder? I do they do that am when everything is done before they go to start to decide or at the beginning, before the cases presenting. Ok, so basically, ivy and of the trial. Both sides will submit I set of jury instructions. These are the ones that we want them to be, and then the judge will basically,
between the two of those sort of like Synthesizer jury instructions, the that he feel or she feels best sort of like reflect the lies that exists and then submit those to the jury. That would be great and wonderful if it wasn't for the fact that the prosecutors are doing anything in their means, including makeup False stories to get their client. You know what I mean. You mean defence attorneys, no pressing the prosecution to them- I guess bow of you, said your clients lemmings- are getting get there. Their lands on this and also the prosecution to get this person charge, and the thing is in my head: I'm always lag like or prosecution such a ban?
our position because, like before anything else, Adee egg to say to MRS person clearly not guilty like a day, I can tell religious ain't my mega prosecutor and leg they kind of how the opera, the apparatus of the stay behind them and defence turns when it's not people versus Oj Simpson like so much of the time are like there were where's paid for everything, except for white collar crimes. They are like worse paid and have like more support in everything, and I do have more sympathy than I probably should for defence attorneys, who are like trying time like.
get somebody or through technicalities like, let's never forgot the. In the late nineteenth seven days, Ruth Better Ginsburg was going to the south to people who have been convicted convicted by all male juries and had death sentences and stuff and sang. Let's reconsider his sentence because there were no women on. Mr, that's why you guys have to serve jury duty now with better Ginsburg made you equal, but in the process kind of got some assholes like a second chance, even though they did what they were commander for. I am I in this my fucking around, like a fucking, pretty my friend my mouth at that I am more dubious of the prosecution, then I'm fence yeah, I mean, but it is also defence, have so much so much pushing them too. Like fight for technicality area, where, like I just feel like, I guess, they're kind of their did just go, they cut down to the air bounds of like look this guy's. This needs gonna look guilty. How do I have to cut down on how guilty? Let's just get the lowest number, that we could? Possibly Gatt and the thing is it like you? Do
I mean in his leg, defence attorneys shouldn't they all they play. Bargaining like I just feel like good attorneys in any situation, really should be coming to some sort of agreement before him, because going to a trial is just chaos. You don't know what those people I met. Jerry are gonna, say it's crazy. Are you crazy?
please let's never be in. That position is a store. Very bass are registered. German answer the question from last week. The key key question for yes, yes, what was to repeat the question? Was your crushed share? My question was likewise my I said life imprisonment, a sentence of life imprisonment. Isn't life in prison? Re well came up first, Nazi argumentatively up. The first thing you said: was life in prison means ten years, while a year which is when I said, you're foolish, I met the idea mean ten years exactly, but yes, I met live out, we're alive ass. We started talking about it, and that is what the fuck is going on in the nineteen seventies, Georgia, comes close to being true lag really, but I must say that I love the now, including not only is this. My play is now it's not remotely measuring any more, but it is so like basically
so you have either giving somebody a number of years, and sometimes you get the ridiculous number of years near like why are they bring this person in prison for five hundred and seventy two years, and that is because they have committed a bunch of crimes but of a sword. That's a long life imprisonment is not an option and they're trying to put the person present and then there's regular life in prison and life in prison without parole and regular life in prison. In, like the seventies, it used to be that like after as little as like four or five years, you could be up for parole.
Why. Why use the word life riots like a time in prison for taking as its protest? It's like a statement. That means nothing means nothing so confused here. What happened is because people kept getting off and no one knew it re shillings more here. Yes, but you started getting these laws that were called truth and sentencing laws. That basically said- and I think a majority of states have passed them and a lot of states now and the federal government have the option of life imprisonment without parole. Bypassing of saying that you have to serve at least eighty five percent of your sentence. Answer for life imprisonment, creating a certain like you can even be under consideration for pearl intellect fifteen year gap at that so like. If you get life in prison and then you and then with the possibility of her all in twenty years and seven you get for fifteen years or whatever eighty five percent of twenty is then then that's you get me, spend sixteen years in prison for murder and getting and getting life like the story of this code is supposed to be the lake, but this guy was being a model prisoner right being so brave. There is also this thing of like good bye,
Your time you're like that, the person in charge of the prison can like give credit times, because you ve been liquor. Behaving well, but that is that thing of lake
prison. Reflection on how you are going to behave in real life, I know, of course not- and this is now we're getting back into their merry Vincent case. Yeah word: that's what happened to the man who attacked her and viciously named her where he was so good in prison that before at, why can't remember his first crime, whatever it was, I thought it was probably murdering a woman or something Lenny spent four years in jail and then got out a lot of the almost kill her. But let's talk about the Ottoman cool ways, even punished people from being assholes, not so Georgia as a right up. Your Georgia are getting more champagne in us, so this conversation, let's hope, is going smoother left do it. So, let's foresaw just go back to what does it takes a mega murder? What do you think it takes to make a murder worries about the darts in turn a knife? You make your fucking joke about the dark, but let me tell you who for burglary,
our sun common law. They had to happen at night if you just broken to someone's how's that mean commonly common law means the way that lack the law or regional aid in England Way way back when, but was still, the valid law in the United States until like in places the twentieth century range checks or a stupid. The chain shipwrecks hers stupid but like in, like in the same kind of olden times, where
could not legally be considered to have wrecked your wife. If you said somebody's house on fire in the daytime, he were fine Gael vast and what they said. It was a mistake or something or laid cages. The thing is is that all of us Europeans making all yes, it was while the dude who on the house really should have been watching it better now, should make us aviator asshole, that's right and those that's all the largest exists without us jointly work about it and then eventually, like state legislatures, had to come along like well. We should do something about this because they give steely during the daytime everyone's like its tradition, and this is how they did that there's lights at night now, the neck of it, it's nineteen, eighty, four! Ok! What else do you need like what s journey for murder?
and so we set in tat when I was still my answer, did you say tat when ten physical somebody, ok everything's? Ok, this is when we talk about a lot, is I think it's fucking insane that attempted murder isn't tried as murder. That's where we're going towards. I was just listen shown up so where you were right about that. I dont worry ass. I was about that. That's all area, so basically, there are three kinds of crimes. Were you don't have to do the act? So the thing is: is that leg The thing that makes murderer murder is that you commit acts violent acts that deprives them of their life right and the magic is dead, it's between depriving summit of their life and not
is huge I could punch the shit out of Stephen right now and if he like survived, then that would just be battery assault and I assault go to jail for like six months, if not because they can't prove your intent or even if you know I like, the thing is that it requires the same intent. Intent doesn't mean. I want to kill Stephen if the exact same punch, the others like fuck that you'd time and he so I've afterwards that's battery and maybe to jail for like three to six months or something exacts in punch. If
You know it's the card. There was a glass valley myself that even syndromes, delicate Stevenson area under Delicate Stephen Syndrome, and he goes down any dad. I'm going to jail for fifteen years to life, yet like it is discussed, even space couldn't take it is. It is just how much of a city just guess he loves captive money, fashion, reflected and its alluded, theorizing an attempted murder basically just comes down to like attempted murder or something you just kind of like
I can't talk of the fact that it was fundamentally just a battery ok, but what have you shoot? Someone in the head and they survive article seconds stab someone and leave them for dad and they survive will mean. The thing is that it is the interesting shift to lick sensual persons head than it was actual attempted murder, as opposed to just like a battery, and they can probably soon relies on in point worms. You put something and Killy in someone's body they fuck it's fucking, maretzek Tokay, your murdering that is aggravated batter. Abusive Venus is putting something Kelly is actually a legal concepts like the difference between first
sexual assault and secondary sexual assault in a lot of states is. Did you use a kill? It did you use Achille thing while you are raping her or leg and in some cases the difference is between like intercourse and a sort of like forced sexual assaults, when the personnel of the other things that, when consensual, are fun back, not cisely today that we're going to get in trouble for so, let's not afraid terrible what you just said. No, I think I know where I just me like explaining what the difference is. Gonna pick some enough, because it's such a second it. So I guess anyway, we're just talking at the facts and what it is I was not manage. It looks to the point is that my intention does,
matter, like my specific intend to kill doesnt matter nearly as much as what happens to Stephen and so with attempted murder. It is just the fact that, at the end of the day, Stevens alive can go to law school one day. Maybe you know it's not like. I do we make something and I myself said are finally given your bucket various: did you really want to other incur
crimes that is there not complete, there's no there's not out. There is an act in them, but not all of the act, like the all of the outward mean end up dead, guess, they're called solicitation viruses like that. What do you think those things are selling is solicitations. Slew telling you about hesitation, I think, is trying to get someone to kill someone else. Yes, how did you like it? It's like five and all right. I was like I just watch tv all. They re a fucking earners online, which I do a thing about solicitation. That's wonderful is so all you need is the intention to one a crime to occur and an act to get somebody else to do it. I knew at that point guilty.
Like the crime it comes. The sentence that comes solicitation is the same as murder is seen as most of you accidently ask like an undercover cop to kill your husband. It's like you killed your husband, but what do you mean about accidentally like you'd, undercover car? Ok, that the undercover cop was the European tripped upon a fucking, coughing and uniform, like you into the copier clearly, but their feelings, and he said, like God, love at events weren't around to Morrow. You didn't have intended that tie so, but if you went to another cover complements like look. Events has been the worse than you like, wanted a meant it yachting. Yes, you're going to jail for exactly as much as if you had attempted to murder. That's it s our hands. I have my hand at shit. Oh so does that mean that when you catch a person on tape, like someone call someone, that's it over? Like it displayed always seems like again, you know frantic files and twenty twenty, it's like the second you make that deal on a phone call, so the acts. So in a murder the act is putting the stab thing, but in solicitation act is just the call, and the thing is: is that moments it's enough and you, you attempted murder, and if the other person didn't murdering the person, your murder, that plan time, though you're the murder, even if you didn't commit getting, as is your guilty of of solicitation of murder, which carries the same punishment as murder interesting now. What do you think conspiracies conspiracy to commit murder is planning it, but without it
man none of these look, like some modesty, I why the thing is is if you like it, if you, if you knew the cat, was going to try to giving a herd and this by Cuba, not realising union can was going to kill me and you helped her planets and figure it out, and that is a clear, serve leg. Conversations that are like in the direction of that happening that conversations enough that when Karen kills me, you are all guilty of conspiracy, error of murder, and I can say that, while I thought she was kidding, I didn't think she was serious and it's for a jury to the sites thing is. Is me it is, for the judge decide if
he thought she was kidding legitimately. That's not conspiracy for murder that unless a volume, it's the jury. It's not a question in this ability is a question of just like legally, that's a mistake absolves you of your men's rail, your your mind, signal where's, my way, and so, but as for the jury, to be like to look Georgia hard start in the eye and be like you, she bullshitting us. If they think that you're not bullshitting, then you are guilty of the same punishment. I am a hand again because that ok, so that is this thing. That's now coming up all the time where people are only now realizing that everybody doesn't reacts the same way. So if they look someone in the courtroom there's a lot of these a crime to remembers words like she was a sea cold. You know how dare a mother of to be this way. Therefore, she's guilty issue burst into tears. Yes, we should now woman quota quo and so she's guilty or whatever. So it's that thing where their people are now realizing. If a person doesn't act, the way you have imagined a person under stress would act or a person that was sad or guilty Urbino regretful or anything this like them. All that projection, but instead it's like every individual deals with that language Ratlin I watch confession or when I watch interview around the calling you talk to
betrayed her investing. You mean in court now in like the police, room, interrogation, tradition, and you like trying to study that person every single thing they say, but you just can't fucking now now they never look guilty or innocent nine, a transport and my friend christlike or is obsessed with. If he's ever anywhere remotely near a murder, then that going to Otto magically convict another because he's not going to react. The way that is supposed to react as he's gonna, be Chile, then that one things it's interesting is that the idea of how a person would behave as a legal issue, an interesting legal standard of how a reasonable person act. So the thing, as is Let's say
it was walking a much larger than Georgia. I was walking towards her. Menacingly became terrified and thought I was going to try to kill her and she bludgeoned me with the Amy Sedaris sinners Craft spoke the question for questions. The jury is Did she legitimately think I was getting his deadly force against her and they would a reasonable person have thought I was deadly, forcing answer and that question of how does a reason what a reasonable person react is always so problematic, as we saw with like trade on Martin, and so many situations where, like we can put our minds into the head of you know, you know,
no white beard, but we can't put our heads into the mind of like black teenager my rule of pepper spray first and apologize later is probably illegal. No that's kind of fine, because it's not only for us and non deadly force, and so what you're? The one thing about pepper spray is the difference between a deadly force and non deadly force is huge, and this, if somebody is using None daily force against like, if somebody, if is not trying to kill you re, think they're threaten you use and you use any level of non deadly force. that is self data. That is perfectly good self defense. The thing is, you need the other guy, the bad guy, to be attempting to kill you for you or like for you to actually is anything for you don't know what the terrible thing.
The operation of the law as it exists right now, is that it does kind of require that he or she be trying to cook a kill you for you to cook. I could kill them and if it is, the thing is, as they eat, Presumably, if, if somebody was coming out, you choose sexually assault, you, I was being very physically intimidating. You understanding that as being deadly forests and sort of understanding. If I resist him enough, this dude gonna kill me yeah. That's understand about the other situation, where you're allowed to use deadly force, even if they're not using deadly force, is in your home, some say so it s very state by state does very same. I say, but generally there
You know there is a duty to retreat here in a lot of situations, but Europe by who, by lack of somebody's, coming out you and you have a way of getting away from you at it. You have the duty to richer. I mean the thing is: is that like, if they're using deadly forcing us you self offences, is fine but like, if you have a clear way out user clear way out, but nobody's expecting you to shrink from her home? Ok, key EU gets maintain your home, so interesting, that's gettin out here. Second,
hide knives everywhere. Then, just reminded me of just a quick anecdote: do it so heavy who go? This is just an interesting thing of like being in the home and also we're just talking earlier about growing up in the country. My older mate, Malaysia grew up in a town called Auburn, which is like twenty minutes north of sacrament in hell you to fall and a good gorgeous gorgeous area up in the air. The old gold, though gold rush country, man red and what he kind of thing not read what he gets closer the ocean. This is more but its very forestry and hilly, and just a lot of houses, every houses, five miles away from the other house. Now, there's no such thing as real neighbourhood, like I've ever not shared a wall when our idea that scarcely this might really make you a compromise, because so one night- and they all grew up like that and my family, who told me the story that shoe one of her friends, it was was home alone as a teenager and got up to go to the bathroom element. The night her parents were like away for the weekend and Sheikh stepped into the dark hallway, and there is a man standing at the other end of the hallway, so she just started making the weirdest noise that she possibly could reverse. Yes, like ass, she just was light. It was just in instantaneous decision where she's, like totally alone, where were the gunners she's nowhere near issue level blah whatever, so she just started like being crazy creepy and it freak this guy out and he ran out of the house. So smart isn't that a maying smart, because I am so sick. I have this big fear that I'm getting out of TAT one day, and you know you can't you're so forget you can't scream yesterday I was like an dreams, but it actually happens when you just try to screaming your voices. Congo's you're, so scared. Yes, I'm so terrified that that's gonna happen whenever I read a murder story where that woman's start screaming, I'm so impressed by that rising. Those instincts are just like and to do that is so impressive. It's crazy and I think it was. It was her following her instinct and its also like one Malaysia made the noise for me as like. Stop making merely weird got a role. It was almost like it being an animal is almost like she's, like I'm, an animal that might attack ia and chances are, when you think about stuff like that, there is probably a drug addict like local drug attic. That was just trying to get something itself from money for drugs, and so he's just like us break into this dark house and I'll get this thing and get out is partly high anyway and then seeing some weird thing at the end of the hallway making that noise, like he's, probably stopped burgling, I like to think having the peace of mind when you're in like power with the most scared situation. Your ever going to be in to play on the other person. Sense of fear is just as well it s a very good. I tell can wait what are the ways we can do that, while, like a sometimes when I walk the dogs, I'm scared at night, I'm walking them in the dark and alike, pass a house and then look into the window. Gonna can see people online, unlike o o
the item the creep. I always think the creeps behind me, but I can see the creek if they're, not closing their fucking blind man. They're asking for river, like all it takes, is the difference of walking dogs. Like I just step behind this tree, and now I'm the weirdo or the person across the street sees you stand behind the tree. Looking at a window- oh my God, slightly related? No, yes, yes, Wade and you're a gag. I walking down the street at night and a woman starts to walk faster or have any of the reactions are the most normal reactions to a man walking behind you in that way, it's over Nicosia touching his birthright forty inclination to some most people, I know, have started to happen.
pretend ever phone call so that they can be a gay voice. The hell I'm gay, I most frequently will start singing guy just be leg
don't worry. I bet you're gonna say take the time to criticise her hair and then she knows she is not in any data is think. Ok, my heart. I have literally been in a situation where a giggle that something women's physical behaviour on a street was just like on five accidents. Or can you ought to hear my car taxes? Do you think I always think like if I acknowledge some one and smile at them and say hello or whenever that its I'm letting them know that I am aware of my surroundings, and so us are stopping at my phone out and let the person pass me and say hello to them. Like a nod. Yes can I just say this: I just want to tell you, but that book that I got and it's called like this spies way of of likes shoot. I need to remember the Chechen: you can shoot em, it's called like he was basically a CIA agents and he it's a book. It's like a total plain reed that I read or just a list of ways to say say from if I may, that egg I'll give it to you, it's really really good, but I basically skip to the whole thing was like our environment awareness and he's like. I would throw everyone's phone away if I could hear his people go into this thing where they think, because this thing is has a priority and they are so interested in it that the world, their shutting out, is shutting them out rang when actually makes you a target when you are clearly like being mesmerized by this thing in your hand- and you don't have environmental awareness so like when you you have to.
have to do anything, but when you're walking down the street, the best thing to do is be looking around be making. I can't confidently making eye contact with actual confidently and just being and also being able to look at a person being like I see you there like. I have a phone in my hand that I can do something with, but also I see you there and lake are you gonna come at me is the is away better approach, because that is basically it's kind of like alpha dogging and just being like is my area, and this is, I am not a victim. Mrs Lake, I mean I literally carry my pepper spray in those situations like walking on the street in the dark, as outlined in my life, but something just feels off. Sometimes I'll just walk with it in my hand, yeah. I know I'm fucking paranoia shed but like, but that's what it's lower rightly so, yeah, that's what care recommend there. Clearly gigantic man in our area, like the sixth gotta go back, I was in, was inflammation and I went to the gay bar bombings in Indiana and I went to the door. I gave our. I love that judges are rarely and I looked in and there were like men playing pool in my couples together knows that this is not a gamer what's going on because of their men playing pool you're in the wrong place. I went in and I was like a where's, the backdoor there like. Oh, you have to go around through in the back. We tool, windowless leg, it's just like any other species into gave out from the time when gave us couldn't have window like idea about having a good time. Well, hiding I like that I'd like that, he knew what you meant yellow and I want it, but the experience of like walking through that, our and being like, like how many people have been beaten. He said no false, like it's a shameful thing, you have to walk through this place and no one wants to go. That's all. Finally, I mean it's it's like the old school where things, but it is
The closest second come to kind of understanding what it's like for you guys, eighty to start and you're going to your car of leg. He hears this alley whereby somebody could wait to just like you with a baseball bat or some even at night. It's our data like I'll. I won't locked answer now. Waste during the dynamic has its just lockdown alley, know their dirty and if your garbage man here not for girls, are garbage man, not sanitation workers. As what you're saying you that's right, men of garbage level, happy man, and I want to say that, because I sanitation org is a respectable but they're just cement their trap, those through the only real fast. That's where the garbage cans are allowing time having added value a shitty deeds. There was one final topic: Owens discuss ethically owe her, so one
One of the ways of sort of like saying something is not. Murder is just sort of saying that the re state of mind wasn't there and what was first all just what manslaughter, as is when you didn't intend to do something that you made a mistake in you did it you are negligent so, like any, essentially aching you do in a car, not murder, it is like, and the state of California. I think there is a really strong presumption that anything you do in a car is not the language you want to kill someone like your car, yeah leg. You wouldn't be trying to kill someone with your heart like if you shoot someone in a car and not be crazy right, but just sort of leg. You know, and accidents is an accident, but again leg Oh I'm hiding all this with Georgia, because your attempts obsession the difference between I hit somebody with my car. I hit somebody caught with my car and then
kill them and is actually have some of my car, and then I tell them as you're going to jail for eight years. I knew a guy can wait. Sorry, sorry, I accept
its along with my car and then it killed them you're going to jail you're going to jail here, that's manslaughter! You have committed manslaughter, and you know it was an accident you I don't have a fucking, DR, even if your buys, because can you imagine a few drinks and you drive and your excellent kill someone I didn't realize, that's what you're saying that's horrifying there is. There is an actual level of that where there are things that you are doing, that are accidents, but are so dear casually stoop that they're called depraved heart so there either called depraved heart manslaughter or in some states. That's enough for murder lie. I think I know I do that. That happen to like what's example, that I went to my balcony and I shall I machine gun just into space. I just drove my car into farmers markets because I thought it would be funny leg from two million. Let not this online, and I know I know I did he was fuckin high and math. There is as stuck in traffic on the freeway and he decides to fuck and done it in the next to the fast lane, like the PA, flame, Suffolk and people had broken down that Lana comes around a curve and hits them and they fucking die kin. It's been fifteen years sprinkling deprived heart and accept this horrifying went to prison for a long time. The very interesting thing that for a long time I got so drunk or I got so stones, just meant that you have been negligent and
at the EU had intent, but like does that make sense as it is it now? Does it now mean that, like basically, we would now probably be construed as depraved heart like you just you got yourself into a situation where you knew it was possible that you were might drive into somebody like. That's all, that's the thing we're like I lived through any. We all live through the time where we watched drunk driving become a bad yes, which is how Larry asleep insane now but like it was when I was ten or twelve years old. I remembered the it was. I think it was a maid for tv movie where like and it's a true story of the truck driver who had been arrested for drunk driving eight times higher than that he does. It hits the nights, but never went to jail was like here's. Your ticket take a ticket. He comes over the hill, it's the one! It's the story of the woman who founded motherly driving over her kids, walking in the middle of the street over a hell he's drunk he plows down, girls, I think and yeah, and that's when they were like no more of this Fucking business man who had a great lion. Sorry, everybody bullshit. You would think that make it that the parents could see the city for that for never having punish him for all the eight faculty eyes area. I think now they do stuff like that, but like back, then it was like oh, but we all drink and dry, interestingly cancerous city for things like that, because Earthen called sovereign immunity shot up where unless the safe, unless the like, when the state is like a business in their running work, we take your garbage aware were making power that stuff you can sue them over, but we do stuff like only a state can do like we criminally prosecute like we fail the prosecutor or whatever it's like you treated in the same way you with the king of just like no other fine fashioned police state motherfucker. What's introvert now and for or against an ivy, I mean, I think, we're fine right. We are cruising warlord, aviator future and twenty seventeen women's work against about we're, saying interesting as the first like as we get more texting while driving over things like taxable driving, probably negligent driving, while watching real housewives of Beverly Hills on your phone raves hurry I feel like watching real has was a Beverly hills as depraved heart, and it took me to Yolanda say now: get that can't you think you can you think of any other way of getting rid of somebody's state of mind. First of all, you're. The best teacher I've ever hang out the sunlight everything s question that I'm so sorry that a lawyer labelling, but you know all the answer ahead of us and our best Brad. What can we think of another way of life
obviating the UK that I I was sort of removing the state of mind as one of the elements drags on this draft. thing as drugs- is basically this sort of lowering to negligence. The way that we talk about mental incapacitated incapacity, except I fundamentally capacity what an excellent capacity it now me is there. So there
our cool defences, like South differences, great events where there are called offences like duress giraffes, I'm always under direct. He had my child and he told me the only way without my child out is. If I you know, I tried to our cats savings. I fucking L, a badge if I had my guy. Ok based on the things I have told you, what do you think the standard were day with the standard? Again they some things. You told us this Karen layer is flunked out of a state school. I throw it in community college it and just like her class. How do we determine whether is threatening a cat enough fatty jurists on Georgia, Hard STAR O, because I because I'm in love- and you can tell I like it- if you have an instrument there spot a thing on it, then you can fuckin killed if she cradles the cat like a baby every night. So that is proof that Georgia actually fell like. That would be terrible Yasser you also, I can do a lot of. You also have to ask what a reasonable person hill, the Secretary of the interior, safe there can have a due to some extent. This is gonna, be my trial, but other more interesting thing is like mental state, and so I just wanted to talk about a little bit about not guilty by reason and secondly, how much actually come up in these horrible horrible people that Europe S discuss other things, I've been learning and reading about. Is that a lot of people try it and it's really easy to fucking us, it's really easy to disprove it and that the reality is it's a really fucking hard to prevent it.
it's always an extreme case. Now you can't just it's not. Besides easiest people, think it's gonna, be it's like the guy that in Canada I believe one a peg took the machete too.
other guys head on the bus, the province of love, the Canada will produce a city is when a pagan Manitoba. Yes, it is this. The cannibal episode not Campbell, it's just a guy that went crazy on the Greyhound bus member and he kills the ice in the next to him and then just went crazy and do a little bit of him. Yes, you're right, we had a cannibal up is an honour for community things. That's right! He ended up. It was by reason of insanity because he was technically, he was, I believe, gets a frantic, but not taking his medication because he it was, it was like his family was basically judging him for being schizophrenia like you can't be crazy. What they saw not, though, like if you're schizophrenia, can you stop taking your meds? Aren't you responsible for that, like you can't just such ignorance and kill, someone tell us ever that faster in question is thirty. Two part questions super hard also on the floor,
people in the garage assaults? I believe this ban salts of April was steroids. How either relation a highway ring. He ate it in a garage. I may have been banned salts, but there's footage of him walking out of an Applebee's. Looking really weird doesn't work that we are no longer have an apple based media owing to say the save it save it for a year, fifteen any life to. Basically, there have been like a couple of big theories about. How do we figure out? Is this person crazy in Africa and the first one Lex started when a guy tragical, the Prime Minister of Britain, This is called the monotony rule, which was the rule for like a real ones, and it comes down to you. Could they not tell the difference between right and wrong bushes like that sort of like the classic questions, and this also so weirdly subjective? Unlike in the sixtys, we see
moving towards this new thing called the Durham task, which is trying to be cool and scientific and more understanding of things. And then the question was: was this a result your mental ls. Was that as a result of your mental illness and then the president got shot an virginity faster? Yes, and what's his name said not reason back out of insanity and under the Dern test, he was judged not guilty by recent insanity and then every fucking state came back and pass laws that were like fuck, you Durham task and so like,
some of them went back to the Mcdonald rule. So some of the wind in the direction of this include the irresistible impulse test sounds like a new Yvonne privileges. It's kind of ferdy stinks at all shades of black irresistible impulse bees her that guy, like depression, is just the classic question is if it was a police officer standing by your elbow, how would you still do like men until the busk? I just feels like yeah? No absolute was convinced he had that that guy was dug had all alone and inside of him, and he had to kill him tat at some really great question began.
In this other world and it doesn't matter who's at your area are on your side. The cops on your side in your fuckin Maria you're, trying to protect that copyright is essentially the mentality its end and that that also goes towards at midnight. I do like. Can you just not tell the difference between right and wrong, but it's like such like? You know you got molested as a kid and to use and that's ok and you move in a less than other your kid. It's like that's right! That's why you're supposed to be doing in cinema in a second pedal. His mind. The fingers is like
so at this point in time. It super super hard to get a not guilty berries, I've, insanity and others. Also things like, even if you do not guilty by reason of insanity, you're going to a mental hospital for what should be forever like what should now until your care cheered, though you guys recently had a horrifying story, was it re enter? I do not listen to it recently or any of somebody really have any who left somebody who can not guilty by reason of insanity and then got out leg within a year van boy feel like it was. I think I was a little bit longer than here, but our greyhound bus guy arrays free now is free. Now in Canada, had such army, and also like, I always think of like mental facilities like other for a week, plays personality yoga retreat. This is a fact and like shit, he wasn't, they don't exist. Anymore arrived at its true. They dont friend
A friend of mine went to women's jail in Japan and they are only God. I always just imagine that is the most amazing spot. I just imagine all hello kitty. Fish should rise three times a day why I've searched lay like a quiet, cope, women, clothing, Mary to I just Saito, facial bar army or just there's a lot of exposure aiding and gorgeous scan nor the hair is just little ashes predicts, but it's been so small. Like a small cube, the I mean, like my mom- was a psychiatric nurse had nurse at a man and logical and when Proposition thirteen pass, they closed most of the mental health facilities in California And- and I think across the nation- I can't remember what, if it was stay or team was just California gathers California, but something that has declined lake. I think the rigour and ministration cut funding for mental health and released a bunch of people as why this second epidemic, because he's our people who should be in mental health, is actually taken care of and medicated, and instead. So that kind of thing where these days, if it's not guilty by reason of insanity, where do they send people, I mean they're. There are just like deeply
for books, state mental hospitals and- and some that are, I believe, specifically structured for people who have committed crimes, has a wing and present ass. He yeah yeah. I think California has that of fulsome. I think, as is where the sort of lake
Mentally ill people committed crimes with their right now, let's do a full some trap. You know what's funny my mom you so I may be totally wrong about. The list is remember. I went to law school sixteen years ago. Is my favorite murder wrong is so I was just as they really quick, there's a there's, a maxim securing its supermax, because prison called Pelican Day. That's happened way. Northern California and my mom used to go with her friend. Mrs Mann. Will our account member here? Firstly, because MRS Mann Wheeler was the kind of nurses, aching shares, also psychiatric nurse, and she would go there and give like tests to the residence. For some reason I can't murmured she was hearing on talked her, so bad. My mama just go along. I stay at the hotel, I read a book and then they would like go to fund dinner, unlike you're, intentionally going to Pelican Bay, where, like it's basically all about this supermax present its where they put her vacate vacate, that's ray, and she was like, of course, I'll go out just go up there with her. They have this great italian play and meanwhile inside the prison are like all it's all the Hannibal Lecter of of like Hell Fournier may I want now to deal with you and your sister so true that when I was in one minute, so they took us to go, see the prisons and we're going right, I'm from California, where we have so like. We have so many of these things. A Minnesota was basically just like. There are two racks of em security prisons, and one of them was like eighty hundreds, clink kind of like that when one of them was like eyes like they are state of the art. There's like a bubble where you can run the whole place from there were making like kindergarten, that that was the thing, but they did was their middle mats for kindergartners and it was
terrified and was legit terrifying to see what life there would be like. Well, you we talked about this woman Europe above watching the night, as we talk about it all the time. It's like we want them, people, the durable things we locked away forever and no sentence seems long enough and all that stuff then you watch then I'd have in your like four minutes. As as a prisoner insight than any of those places is an absolute horror show nightmare lake, then you start get. It makes me think about it. The the complexity of when you get back when you actually get sound guilty for a crime like that, and you go away for eleven years, because you did this thing I knew literally are delivered into the boughs bowels of hell, and hopefully hopefully you stay alive like that. That does count for something we always wanted to be fifty years or whatever. But like is
is eleven years enough when it's that level of suffering and fear and constant horror. What did you do to your victims said they had a similar that is our high, that's what I did my victim. No, I know no absolute limits. Also, like that's. Why it's us, I'm also so interested in like cases where it's like did they get the right guy, because the thought of walking in their only like I have eleven years, and I didn't fucking- do more horrifying than those stories yeah. I was in there for seven years and then, like of Danny out the DNA like like technology, to figure out. I couldn't remotely dumb ass yeah four hundred years more units, not seven years and speckled dog ears ass. I hate the story so Maya.
wrongly accused is like it's just it's? How do you cut airlines people in that situation? You can sue for dappled deprivation of your civil rights. I think, if you can show sort of like that.
Misconduct, learn of the order, just sort of lake failure to do their job properly and the plight of delicate yes on the heart of the ocean. I shall like it if someone else gets caught and convicted, then you can. You can think if they find someone else's dna. Let you out its hunting that if they find someone else's dna and they find a person in conflict and that you probably have more leeway well what you would do as if they find Dan that relates to your case than you would do a thing called up like a habeas Corpus act. Where is it like Menzies shouting, I lay analyses on my happiest smartness Day areas Corpus adjust its means. Like present the body, and the thing is this: does the roof sexier direct like a direct bang, where you get to go to and appeals court and say like luck, this means there's no possible way. He did it.
like those are the things that, like people in jail, are constantly trying to wag pursue themselves and you get a casual tv movies. What the one guy who and announce Widdle like get himself out of the innocents project, traceability right right, ass and don't you think that beyond satiable cortisone called present the body where the core, and, unlike in parentheses, of habeas corpus, that's right, exactly are the core area its course soon. You should be- I mean if there
is dna evidence of that sort. You shouldn't be doing a better job of getting yourself out there. Then the state is doing of prosecuting somebody else legacy on yeah like it's a society, it's it's on you, but also it should be able to happen quicker. I would thank than the seagoing and try again and thought other person we from jail from arms were saying: there's an innocent person in jail and there is a person out there who actually committed the crime that, like the minute, they find the dna that couldn't possibly be yours. Then your lawyer from file, habeas Corpus and beer that, like that
this will be or whoever it as well in the dna experts, while they like up up up and you can get that time seems like finding the person and Oliver that's who actually did, it would be a longer process than the habeas corpus Tat s a lot. I understand some real scientists. Now, our sorry, we are you just saying, as opposed to the fighting the guilty man, it's just living. It's not you it's just proving its like. It was just a joke. This question was like this: Can there be to people in jail for the same murder at the same time and kind of now got it unless they were like collapsed
What about the the guy who eventually got prosecuted by the army? Oh yeah, did you hear that one now, that's eimer lower easy when we start talking about double jeopardy, but I mean anything I'll just say a thing or am I I'm pretty sure this is the word I should be saying, but I can't have like a debate about, as I don't really know what I'm talking about. But it was, you know, you know he got, tries and convicted of a triple homicide that got returned and he then he was declared innocent. Then they found years later, it's the summer, land, road murders, and then years later they found DNA Vienna. Once dna technology was around tying him to the murders, and so because they couldn't try
for double jeopardy because of double jeopardy, exceed arguing connected and then deemed innocent. He had been an army at the time, and so they re in stated him, and then he was tried by the army people. I don't know it's a come see. I ass our common, that's because those are different laws and different yardsticks jurisdictional because of the different laws, because a different restrictions, it isn't that it,
so that doesn't count as double jeopardy if the army stepson and is like we're in a trade over here. Yes, because he really different law for committed murder, while a number of the hour I haven't read, he had crossed state lines with a kidnap victim heap than the FBI and or that they are the. U S couldn't can could try re yeah. That was an interesting thing that, like you can't I don't think you can be convicted of leg can you be convicted of birth, federal and state matter of that sort if they are? If it is both a federal and state murder? I would think so because there is a difference. I am afraid there is this thing where, if all of the elements of your crime are all
also all of the elements of a different crime you can't be convicted for both of them like going back to me, going back to me punching Steve, I'm going back to that Stephen Soussio. Just for this example threaten all of all of the things that I did to punch Stephen we're battery, but they were in the situation where I killed him. It was also murder, which means a few prosecute me for murder and convicted of murder. I cannot be convicted of the battery now their ways. You know that part of it so with the US assume. The thing is that leg. The failure was on the part of like the state law like because there was clearly some sort of nickel failure in prosecuting under the state law you huh
Kara be retried under the state, but they're all of the facts occurred. I just wonder, like you know, as well as science and technology advances to stop, should double jeopardy. Blake depend on compelling evidence. You know if, when we Sunday can can use Ino DNA in the second nineties wasn't what it is today and early, two thousands, and so there are some cases that they're gonna find something bigger in twenty twenty five. When we know more, and it is so hard, it is very, very hard when we constantly have new technology. That gives us more information and when you tried somebody under what lake, criminal research was in in eighteen? Eighty four, you want to have another stab at it in two thousand. Sixteen, I believe in the idea of like no, you lack
statute of limitations, let's deal with it now here, you kind of have to deal with and under the terms of now, and you can't go back and and start with things like called cases. He stuff like that and its also to the prosecution to decide if they actually have a case that they can win. So if you darling, you should fuck and wait until you do, except just why they don't try a lot of weight on body like Ex Ante, your rights re Ex over the phone you ve got the yeah speedy trial, but the thing is: a speedy trial only starts once they arrest, yeah and missing out on arrest. Someone entire yeah, and the thing that's interesting is lack. we knew she was dead, in nineteen sixty seven. But if we get information that says oh so, and so did it again now he or in two thousand. Sixteen. Then you can go and get that guy. It's not like statute of limitations has told, because
I don't know, I don't have it as murder, not if it's never for murder, Ganem S, mother. Yeah. So, like you, just kind of have to wait until you have enough staff, there is a case where back man in talk
Finally, this is horrifying. I've forgotten so much about this. You do our world, I'm sorry I'll adhere listeners. Girl was theirs. There's almost five hundred lawyers out there that listen to this, but this is terrible. So all, but also the worst part about this- is that of giggling myself about Karen calling Winnipeg Province or Manitoba City efficient. Now you're going to get all of the lawyers writer ends of listeners. Have you seen our second? They sent a sweet honesty going to make a wild about how I got the law which can avenue seventeen. We make a meme of quail that door upon charming and everyone lobby. I think this is so satisfying because, basically, for a year stray we ve been thrown out what we think and kind of that with the intention of like all, probably get back around in this and have an answer than or whatever, but our doing like. Will this not argument they each other but like saying like this should be this way of ethical? Yes, why? It's not that way! Right I like that, and the thing is I do
like after law school, I was just, are terrified. Every time I got behind the wheel of a car, please let me not kill someone as time is now. I will be that way to that, but the paranoia like once you're in the criminal justice system is so horrified and they have the right to take your life away from you that I do like. However, knowing it may seem, I do really believe in all of those little constitutional things that are like. If you don't do it all right, then this person has to go like this person gets off like and watching the Supreme Court kind of like scrape away some of those things like it used to be. If anything remotely
on closer had happened in Michael's, searching for something that evidence was the fruit of the poisonous tree and could never be years, and they started to be a little bit more yeah, even though you d never warrant for em. It's fine that you got that that five, even though its finding people who actually are guilty of mostly of drug crimes and stuff, like that, I'm just like I want all of the protection second have yeah- that the state cannot throw me away forever, a train that I think I'll turn away. That's the thing it's like once
do when we start talking about, as we are talking about cases most of the time we're talking my case where we know the person did it said, then, when we opine its with a passion of God dammit, these people have their lives taken away by this person. Who we know is bad because it's been proven. Somebody else do all the work and unjust to say yes get rid of this person has day they. They got rid of other people and that sucks. But when we get into those cases where it's a question mark, you still have the same feelings of bad people should pay for a for ruining other people's lives and interesting. I that you think of it from your side of like us of being the person whose prosecuted, where I think of it as being the victim and like all the little things at all, need to do that. I save my. I have all of my like day planners from the past like five years. So if I ever need to say where I am or what I was doing or like testify for somebody else are, you know like if I use my credit card effort, I use a credit card at effect in party leader. I think ok well, this is gonna be a trail of where I was that dank hey something happened. Yes, if all goes well plays, look as it also could be a trail, something that proves you were at a parking meter and rise it likely out, but I'm a white fuckin female. I like them, not bounded, worries much. Yet it is a situation of like I'm just not scared. Instead,
crime. In the same way, I, like somebody, my rob me you know or like there. There is random sort of I'm also just not I'm not the most bashful gag. I feel like you're almost and back of Papa CARE and, let's not say about the added by, is leg the. I think there is maybe more randomness to the kind of crime, and likewise somebody might murder me, then, for for women here, lay a click or always vulnerable yeah on our way, the processing of weird thing about breeding those cases and listening to your stuff is realising that somebody from just like down
your world and for no reason cause such horror and paying for just for
it doesn't make sense to me and wave of your family and friends and fucking peripheral people in your leg, just as spaces me off so much that these fucking assholes can take away so much by just having an effect in random feeling to kill someone or drug addiction rise it. How often is just a domestic like they were on method, they didn't know what they were doing their own method. It made them this crazy, violent or whatever, whereas just like that, there's all these people that dont do math and lived in a live legal I was, I mean that took the things were I do get into. The mindset of the victim are more sort of like the evident ratings of like this person's not around. We don't get to rely on the fact that they can do. You know that you're allowed to admit hearsay evidence for a dead person, because they can't testify their behalf and fair, but knowing its or wonderful at the best thing would like their powers of the law. That lack feel like magic. That really are just like such old entrant magic and my favorite one is the dot
You're dying assurance is always admissible. No, yes, you're right, so you're dying utterance is like because nothing is like its estimate that this episode dying at our and its hearsay. So hearsay is something someone you can't testifies about stuff that somebody told you. You may testify that stuff that you like experienced yourself by when it is your dying utterance, because there is no, you were round any more like that is always a miserable and at least just to be considered. Yes, it is, I mean like it as its just like throw that in there with everything. Why is that? Ok? Why? Ok so about my sister says to me: I'm really scared that mass was gonna. Tell me that, and I say that an she gets killed, and I say that that's hearsay
yes, it's hearsay. Hearsay is admissible, some of the time of her, but if you're as she was dying leaned over and she said it in your ear he's the one that did. It seems like a cat, that's fair, but that since the opposite of how it should be like she's, been telling me that shit for a year with a thing as his work, after your brother in law testifies about stuff about how things were fine Andy, I love you. I know you're gonna marry. I know who you are. I didn't realize that we're like that you're the example sounds lady. I got, I don't mean that you're allowed. I mean there is something about how
hearsay from dead people, there's a separate rule about hearsay from dead people being more admissible, but also even admit hearsay to impeach his testimony. So if he says things were fine, that's and I had the best of relationships. Then we can bring Georgia. The sand and Georgia says she told me nineteen times and I wrote them down on the little pad in my kitchen and give a little pad from your kitchen is also admissible. Yank sense I like that and also enables these days, which asked for ever so wonderful keeping affecting pad in my kitchen from now on and am writing on every time. Anything happens, good idea me and then you can write a book day. Just intent. Detail of every single thing that happens to my mom has a situation that he can't hurt. It knows about that's just like wish. There might come a situation where she needs to test how about something and she's always just like. While I put it on my back, I wrote down, she really does. I guess so. My go. That's how areas where I keep my my em like tonight.
We can do is like all remember something. If I see that I went to this fuckin doktor whenever that right here that having documents for stuff is just so exciting from a legal perspective, you discover. That means the other side gets a copy of your calendar says. Oh so so many allowing decor report asks for a year I for pursuing this ship owners. They say too that in almost like the inverted version of this that I think of is like in my family, there is a ton of death when I was young and it was the all out of it like surprising and one after the other, and that's when I just decided I may do it. I fucking want, has when we talk about the random stuff, for when we talk about being a woman and walking with fear at night or whatever. It is it's this thing where any this: that's, that is the deal of life. That is what born being born into this life. That's the situation is the same INA, which different for different people for different reasons, but in general we are all constantly at risk. We all have the spectre of death hanging over us all the time. It's why some people love to crime. It's why some people love to paint is wasted. I can't stop jogging whatever the fuck it is, but ultimately, I feel like I had this kind of weird realisation as a young child. There's like this fucking sucks, and it could end it any second well, the thing is like it could be somebody with a majority on a bus or the amount of potassium and uses exactly so like. So then, why not be like? Oh sorry, I meant to tell you I'm totally in love with you or why not go do stand a comedy that you're scared to death of doing, but why not do because it's the thing in your heart that you want to do likewise, I might as well. This is your one fucking shot and you can sit there lining up all the things. That are the reasons why you should be scared or you can go well. I should be really scared, because this whole situation is really scary. So why be scared about the one thing I should really? Why do why not just fucking? Do it then, finding by saying TAT, twenty seventeen? That's why seventeen baby on seventeen is how care and is still in Atlanta and everybody else. If you went to dine me, how long have we been talking? Eight hours, long, shoe issue. One murder from our car are true crime cry ass drug draw on a murder like legs to row. Car right I have. I have a stack of these murders. True crime playing cards that stealing seem remorse gave us last week or each can draw one and we're going to read it just like playing cards and that's martyr. Oh shit, you guys- oh my god, my God, my god, I'm again,
ok who and servers carrying these I'm excited she last guy seems dishearten guiding honorary, reaching wait, hold on think this. This might be what now hold out. I said last night
the MC, not rules. Oh I fucking just pulled the card, you don't even raising. Ok, let me read, there was acknowledged rules. Bulges will double check your work in eighteen, forty, three, the annual MIKE not in the glass, go woodworkers shot. The secretary to the british guys. I've singly tingles are now I've packages of these, and this is the one we open and that's when you fuckin it, I wasn't looking very well there are upset down, is not what is happening and had intended to kill the Prime minister, but was unclear as to his appearance. At his trial, Mc Nutt and suffering from delusions of persecution proclaimed the Tories route to get him. The jury found him to be insane and not responsible for the magnitude of his crime. He was to be sent to an institution concerned. Parliament members convened a panel of judges to explain this. Their answer forms the mic. Not in the rules which Colin, which are this jurors, are to be informed that the accused is presumed to be is to be seen as here she is presumed to be innocent, to establish a defence on the basis of insanity. The accused must be disturbed enough to not know the nature and quality of what he or she did or if knowing it to know, it was wrong further. If the accused labours under partial delusion only here, she must be considered in the same situation as
responsibility as if the site with respect to the delusion. Were real. These british rules commonly called the insanity defence have been adopted in America and Canada and have been tested hundreds of times since their inception in the cases of a serial killer, such as TED Bundy, Edward Game? I look gonna come Edward Kenneth.
Now he and Geoffrey Dahmer. The atrocities committed, have led defence lawyers to attempt to prove insanity. While this strategy was successful in the case of the obviously dysfunctional gain most such defences, proof futile because the sociopath personality, while deviant in his desires, is often not out of touch with reality and jurors, usually decide that a killer functional enough to hide his or her crimes can be presumed to be aware of wrong doing, and I would just like to say that these are true crime series. This is from true crime series for serial killers in mass murderers by Valerie Jones and Peggy Collyer Lady S and the art is by Polly Eclipse enterprises just in case any wants to how its enforced bill, which is right by peddling. Who is a game again again, is the one that basically killed. Several people, women and his town killed. His mother psycho is based on him as well as silence of the lambs he's the one that made furniture. He wore his letters face as nipple Bell, DS, nimble, necklace, nipple, Bel AIR right and he danced with his leg different parts of his mother. Under the moonlight he was out of his goddamn mind to cleanse the movie copycat acumen. If you mean with Sandra Bullock, no was the one with her courage and supporting weaver. Oh I like that. No real s island is thought that his his serial killers was Sir dorky compared actual serial killers. He hadn't refined his acting style, as he had eventually done in hope flow, but I enjoy everything. That's happening also has its in San Francisco re. Yes, it's amazing suborning weaver its security, whereas a lot of suits and Holly morning, we were Emily Hunter. I just anyone can lick is just on board foreign actor. Her love of sandy bulwark, I'm just like sandy cries. I cry how how concur love this its enemy? I want you ass. She I think you want someone did now. Neither Sandra Bullock does it for ever since she does it, but all, but I have to say, like not the proposal Sandy, where she's kind and was so good. It's good, but that's that's. My sandy is more a week's notice that I will watch eight weeks notice year anytime, wherever it is beginning Miller end I feel assembly, I'm the same stomach noise and sleeping with the enemy I want my or is that on white strata of IE is no good still. Magnolias just goes down so smooth just it's. It's so didn't actually held in an tonic on a hot day wanted, or do you want to get my age you wanna go last cause you're the guest, pleased her. I feel a goal. We announce a climax to one another. I know it's gotta go for Asia. Now I'm burning in ok, James Reagan. I merely guess by his second face and for goddamn fedora that he's a monster
Who was born in eighteen? Eighty one began his crime career as a slugger for the Chicago Tribune during new circulation, wars of the nineteen twenties that sounds boring and nineteen forty, his continental press, one little so boring. You can think about wire service and bookies and there's some people listening. There lay my daughter, I. Finally, I think wire service cry of the Chicago Mama Continental Press. It control, illegal booking, bookmark, making several bookmaking in my throat away rip it up. I can't I don't care, kill. Someone eventually end like raises some line that those wires involvement in Federal Cobb, recital g men working to come in and take care of me, a guy Alex Gravy,
here, we go no got Richard Tinkler Junior yeah and its really creepy, drawing of like an alien trail, a man he looks like he has plugged his eyebrows without using a mirror. Looking at us, Richard Tingle urging year was an illegitimate child born in nineteen. Forty, not his fault. It is my going point that attracts at his mother often taunted him for his coat sinful birth and beat him what fucking damning she started a sorry she tore. Who is he escaped home by unless the and therefore synergy iron, while station in Alaska, he went a while with a friend was arrested for burglary in February, I feel any was released in Chillicothe Ohio. Six months later, he was arrested on thirteen counts of breaking and entering sentence to want to fifteen years and state prison and was purled in August. Sixty four he broke parole with more burglaries, returned a prison on September, sixteenth of that year for bodies three mail or found shots death in Cleveland Park. One month later he robbed dairy bar in Columbus. What's it dairy producers, like people, go there to drink milk shots of milk? Just Milton's area our pool game strangle the manager into unconsciousness and shot to teenage workers identified by the manager he was indicted on six council murder became of the F guys most wanted and November. Sixty eight using the Alias Don Williams Tinkler secured work at an oak lama, farm March, thirty of sixty nine, his photograph of Broadcast episode of the F B. I, oh, my god, can we get fucking with some
The so called the FBI in eighteen, sixty nine, which we fucking me. We need it
How is no one put on the list video historians come on? Let us have it. There was no way the largest can say we can go the Museum of Television, radio and watch it is like that is. Is it like em, it's very heavily for fish, exactly how, but with video Havana shares in April he shot and he shut sheets and robs and middle aged man then goes home to the farm. Erratic behaviour attracted attention. Baby did, I fear, agents arrested, tiller and may extradited to face charges and the highest convicted of murder and sentenced to die sentence was commuted to life imprisonment when the death penalty was overturned. Tingley category, I just wanted more insight leg I just like those parents were unmarried, is the only thing we got four why he did all of one. I suggest you shoot for people like what was actually they make him seem diabolical on really he's just a second like drifter who, just like, doesn't get. Who has no emotional attachment to people? It's not that like do. We know that illegal. What was that for person? Murder here has just said it isn't sound like he's, got
he'd. He unequal he's missing a chip yeah with them more drifters in the sixty eyes. I feel like road card writers, you mean trendy Kafka. Happy is coming here, the idyllic half they hippies we're just like fucking great. I gotta do this in fact: caught hippy girls, ass, I'm hot runaways, that's very true cultural Manson, poor seventies, runaways LAO these stupid Eddie I show is such a beautiful tribute to win, because I forget that they exist and then it feel like every other episode. There's a fourteen year old girl who said this strike out that's blow. She either decides to strike at our own or the cops go now she ran away, but she'll come back and they metals lorry they may keep. You seem like such free spirits and internally, just like kids from like small towns. You're like I want to go to a thing like oh shit here and then to do terrible things to get money and survive, and I made a fucking huge mistake and those does like videos of them like dancing and having fun. It's like no you're having a terrible trip around a bunch of sober people for different tree hippies hipsters was a graphic design. Degree from this law is utilised studio, permanent servants, skier or Oakland drugs in Brooklyn Gap, where you can be fine differences, whether or not you choose to be in the part grades. Are you sleeping in the park or did you just walk down to the park to get high rate care? And let me tell you the most beautiful San Francisco story isn't army? Are you guys? Yes, even closer reasoning: Georgia up, ok,
So I was. I went to the bathroom, the Mcdonald's that, like a butts golden gate, part time, that's where they amoeba, exaggerating islands to rouse you bury origins. Yes, I lived there for a while, so I walked into the bathroom and there was
a door. A bull twink word in in Greece Cover Ivy drug use tracks, even though the barely their beer, because he was an intolerable twink year with DE stand, is set, and I really or like two thousand to me and with a disposable razor and then ass. He finished he offered it to you is like do you want a shave baby? No like that San Francisco of like that is several, especially in the late. Ninety, the ass. You can't share razors now, not a thing. I want to keep their nets that consensus gonna nineties, but that's another episode. I read LUCA, that's for the end of night at twenty, seventeen right or we do in all circumstances, go play. They have just terrible stories of the winter. Bummer was me stealing toilet paper from bars just dark time, going to Berkeley a big scared to go into the city. A core question of my first years of sat up were: do I have three? Seventy five chew gets issues like Lugal was boring nation sixty three impatient China, one of three children s father was a clerk as mother was a doktor good for them feminism. That's right: that's his mask ills, blossom, didn't junior high anyone, academic wards and eventual admission to Beijing University upon graduation and eighteen. Eighty five he entered the university of I would to study physics is a terrible like were worth taking like a chinese guy to America's Heartlands sure Oliver serial killers, benighted things, must be done in the corridor, will say upon graduation energy, five universe. If our nature is having to chew maids and its tiny apartment, but both found him slovenly and superior, he was alone or bad tempered and not wildlife. He became a gradual to sustain and qualified for a Phd programme. Can I get is ass. They were
this guy's gonna be a year. I gotta kill her forgetting about great in the summer. Nigeria, seven are you, professor glue gone to an international conference in Europe upon his return, he became disenchanted with physics avons all of our the anti fail. He also began to pay prostitutes for companionship, nothing wrong with that. Just handholding, imaginary one large cash ward. He had hoped for was granted instead to rival incense and began to file complaints. He also get here eager. But again we received this doctrine, so complain of a conspiracy against whom no up not just go, get tinier somewhere in September. Nineteen. Anyone Luke on close out of savings account packed up his belongings and set them home on over. First, he walked into a graduate seminar shot, as professor might be. No rights, like everybody wins on this island professors protege when he calmly reloaded walks into their parliament chairman's office and kill them assumes called men. Women look on kill the university associate vice president and the woman who had been has never have been about or administrative official. My did her secretary secretary that he was too and she doesn't even get laid any of the glory of like I'm a professor at their genes. All we wanted to show off and watch Fuckin NASH Bridges way. I'm all she did was file. Then he went to an empty room and killed himself. The six victim murder spray soon and suicide took twenty minutes. Wait. What year was like in the eightys? Was he wouldn't irish? Ninety one silicone first college shooters, I wonder ono, assuming aside a front I in college, I wondered today at a college to they call it a card shooting nose out of college of universal violent speaking,
There's something I have to discuss with you guys after the show is ongoing. I wonder that law, it's a school shooting that have been planned work. This is admissible and I'll make. I that's crazy. Those crazy
everything's the words it re. It always ends this way. Can we have a good thing, as I'm really like this week, has been? Should it because I'm looking at Facebook too much like reading on these horrible fucking headlines and link Fuckin Aleppo and all this crazy, awful sheds happening yeah. Let's talk about a good thing that we have one dealers have over faker thing that has just taken a tempting to leverage your ridiculous success and make it benefits from it during your hard stock is probably going to be just ain't, my pockets pop rocket in January of sorrow and also, let me be clear when I said to him they could come on, explained some legal pigs. There was not just me, try to get on your ass down. How does this reply? It was me one like luck when we all listen to pod CAS, we all want to yell back at the progress, which is essentially the only reason. I listened to pick up my vs you're gonna. Look in Portland, I'm fuckin instagram that I'll say it. We often you'll gets its HAWK non eurozone but murder things, but he also Sargassum Fun non murder and I don't know anything about non. Also. We have a little information now so going forward whenever these things come up at least can be like. I think this was that thing I was talking about how mother and they can like. Now our that's exactly right and will start wearing office outfits. I won't sedate. My good thing for the week is that I am lucky enough- and I mention this on our less episode to be working on Guy Brandons, near chauffeur to tv contact, show the game show and we sit in a room. It's actually very much like them. My favorite murder family, because we sit in a room with Jamie Lee from our Bell House she's, the greatest, when allegedly cats who is so hilarious and Chase Bernstein, who is Larry, stand a comic. Who is our writers assistant and we sit in that room and we spend Ino forty five minutes working on the script were supposed to get John relatively soon, and then we spend the rest of the day laughing our asses off and very actively talking about. Like it'll start. The discussion starts about what we need to figure out for the thing and always end up in, like some kind of inner stand up, fear rise, there is show how Larry S, and I just feel grateful that I have a job that instead of draining me of my life blood, it actually the time, those so fast and it is so enjoy a body out I set of stressful for fucking wants is the most fun I find so fascinating that had space where her trying to find something to be depressed or scared or sad about like a friend of mine, was recently just like obsessing about the possibility that he might die and, unlike you, will there yet. But the thing is: is he's happy, he's happy and he's trying to figure out a reason that he doesn't answer would scarcely be happy so he's like imagining that will be taken away from them, and I think there is something so fascinating about that dynamic that, like that and mindset of like that's where you're going right now and you don't really don't have to get myself.
but that was hard at heart well and good thing that we have is that world full of sparkling wine, which is most by not knowing errand and the opposite. A full of sparkling wine, but also the thing is guy, keeps argue about we're like he'll talk about in preparation for wood. It all goes back, you keep bringing it up to mean it so hilarious. Me words like we almost don't even have time for this all to go about. It's gonna be done so quickly, but I think a basic degree of parent or something any like the lovely thing about away, as you have seen so many untalented people get amazing over. So it's so weird
I don't know, I've ever told you this, but I think the most serious thing is that the most negative personally, the parent planet, caring Kilgour, will scarf at anyone's sort of little project that her second podcast arouses six. This is an outrage. Yes, it completely goes against your personality, like canker gave as a person whose, like deeper saw us
This is not to start it. I was so precisely really just had we had to make it happen. This was delight you stole thanks, so much for letting me cross over into the world of my favorite murder, because fifty episodes are how many of Us- and this will be Forty- nine yeah- it's it's been beautiful, being taken through those hundred stories, states very fun to get to cross over to play with nice. It is people we like like the bug. Yes, it is exciting, bore and if you guys have an already, please listen to the pod cast pop rocket in so awesome and they talk about pop culture stuff, but it's it's a, but it has got eyes until informed as this. It feels like it's very it felt very produced to me when I was on it, where I was almost a little bit like I don't know. If I have the right answer and you're just like I'm asking you your opinion, lay back, everybody felt very then big opinions about there isn't enough. I have opinions and get sparkling wine. Let's I can now. We, I think you think secede anymore, ass of the per cast for being our Maison audio engineer, ass, tat. You see I'm ankle for this week because when I go to town which is lacking in Zaire, Eve written thing for me, because I hate leaving my cats, the fact that he now takes care of them like cells, Myra, which, because they love him in that it makes it less anxious for me to go away. That's also, no one here, yeah! Yes, very good, you don't know we're gonna my favorite murderer and do stuff go on my others games and puzzled, and you can join the raffle. That's gonna be so I think I got your listening happy new year. Thank you for being here with us all through twenty sixteen, we ve had a great time. Twenty seventeen we're gonna. Second pepper spray signal its good thing. I mean and good way it's not important enough backing Hague kick in an area like oriented perspire gay with twenty seven team or make it our beds, wouldn't take keys between the knock all right to twenty seven. Seventeen bull there is this is excellent and Joe get murdered by Elvis you wanna go very gap is actually do there was one track sets out here. Has he fucking thousand then comes over yearning knows
Transcript generated on 2020-01-15.