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MFM Presents: Wicked Words - Dr. Katherine Ramsland: BTK Killer Dennis Rader

2021-05-24 | 🔗

My Favorite Murder introduces the first episode of Tenfold More Wicked Presents: Wicked Words. In her new true crime chat show, host Kate Winkler Dawson interviews forensic psychologist, Dr. Katherine Ramsland, who spent years interviewing BTK Killer Dennis Rader in prison. Find out what he taught her in this fascinating episode. 

Listen and Subscribe to Wicked Words on the Tenfold More Wicked feed on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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body care products in store or online lay body fearless. In my skin guy Today we are sharing the first episode of tenfold. More wicked presents wicked words. A new podcast on exactly right. Wicked words is a cop canyon chat show to tenfold more wicked warehouse. Kate Winkler Dawson nervous journalists and writers about their best. True crime cases. Guests include the filmmaker who investigated the long island serial killer. The forensic psychologists you spent years exploring the minded BT, K, killers, demonstrator and anew. Our times bestselling author, who went to school with a serial killer, you'll hear candid insights revealing details. Never before publish while discovering intriguing facts that would otherwise be lost, a history. These are the stories behind the stories plus. If you haven't checked out tenfold more wicked dig back into the feed here. Seasons won through three of the critically acclaimed podcast and and
The premier episode of wicked words here and then head over to the tenfold more wicked feed for a brand new episode out today. New episodes drop every Monday and subsidy the show on stature, apple, podcast or wherever you listen. If you like what you here, please write a review and follow them on Instagram at tenfold. More wicked, on Twitter, a tenfold more and on Facebook at ten fold, more kid enjoy an and thereby right. The story can panes, adult content and language, along with references to sexual assault, listener discretion. Is advised you can see this, but out describe. This is one that sank. A bad name. Demonstrator came up with. He causes Cuban, and so in my hand I have as tube and on each side there is a labour like church leader,
Roy Family Man serial killer in that's what psychopaths take advantage. They have no routes in any of these. All of them are part of their identity, they can pivot quickly to whichever one works for them in any given situation.
From Caitlin Cler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor in Austin, Texas, I'm also the host of the historical, true crime, podcast tenfold more wicked on exactly right. I've traveled around the world interviewing people for the show I've interviewed some people in person and some from my home studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. They've had so many great true crime stories, and now we want to tell you those stories with details that have never been published tenfold. More wicked presents. Wicked words is about the choices that writers make good and bad. It's a deep dive into the stories behind the stories. I'm Catherine Rams Land, I'm a professor of forensic psychology and the author of confession of a serial killer. What I call a I didn't autobiography Ab Dennis Raider the Bt K serial killer, Doktor Rams Land had unprecedented
access to one of the most notorious serial killers in american history. She's, a real life mine hunter. She spent years. Working with Dennis Rater, to figure out his psyche why he became a killer. It was in jail Dennis raider talking about himself in any which way he wanted. It was guiding him toward the end of benefit in criminal, just psychology and law enforcement so that whatever we were doing would end up providing insights and also the proceeds benefit the victims fan before we get started. Let me tell you the story of Dennis Raider Raider killed ten people and care over thirty years before he was finally caught. UK stands for bind torture kill. One of things that was so frightening about raider is that he seemed relatively normal. This is from her book through Ale House visits telephone calls and written correspondence. Catherine RIM,
when I worked with greater himself to analyze the layers of his psyche, using he's drawings, letters interviews and raiders unique codes. She presents image. Nicholas detail. The childhood routes and development one. Man's motivation to stalk torture and kill demonstrator grew up and all american boy in Kansas, into the heart of America, with religious values and and intact, family etc. And yet he developed The idea that he wanted to be famous. He got attachment to a serial killers. He read about ass, a teenager, intrude, detective magazines and girls made him feel uncomfortable in off balance. So he began to but those things together as a way to keep women under control was to be and become famous, was to become a serial killer. So his fantasies began.
And to form a round that notion, and then he died just identified with one day he was going to be, is famous jack, the Ripper or TED Bundy, or any of the other ones and he said about to do that. What is his child? Unlike those as someone who was a normal childhood, we often hear obviously people who were serial killers come from from bad backgrounds, he did not come from a bad background it and why I like this case is because he is an outlier, and he shows us that we cannot make formulas that will help us predict and understand. Serial killers, because there will always be some- But you just as in fact- and we have to be very careful about how how we try to box the these things up serial killer is simply a description and behaviour of you. Ve killed at least two people in two different incidents. It's not a criminal type.
So we have to be aware that we are not trying to formulate it so that we feel safe, and I, demonstrate is a very good example of somebody had a perfectly ordinary childhood. No is, might have had some head injury, women being able to document that, but he heads like It was in a car accident. Is mother dropped him on his head when he was a kid, but he doesn't really most of the impulsivity in and other kinds of behaviors you expect from had injuries. He became a serial killer through a very active and and varied. Strong and intense fantasy life. So earlier you call greater a psychopath, but would he have diagnosed with something like anti social personality disorder as a child. Even if someone suspected something was wrong, we don't put the labels psychopath on salmon below the age of eighteen. So that's the first thing. However, we can see psychopathic tendencies in children as young as three so
We talk about them as being fledgling psychopaths or children at risk. For psychopathy. We do a programmes for males who are at risk of psychopathy now a lot of them, but there are some there's one in Wisconsin at at the, though did you center and there have been success, meaning there identifying and and usually in their teenage years, are just just before tanagers their identifying young men at risk for becoming adult psychopath working with them of their thought, processes and and behavioral accountability and their findings success. But that when there are released the rate of them repeating any offence it might have committed to get in. There is lower than that those same population being release and not going through the programme. I guess what does all this mean, so that tells us. Perhaps
when we catch them at a young age and can identify those at risk for developing into adult psychopaths. Girls injustices amenable to this treatment as boys, so in that case identifying them at a young, whether female or mail is important, but nobody recognize it with greater right, and so he proceeded with his life. He got married and then something really change with him. He got angry one day because you ve been laid off from a job. You really liked. His wife was now the red winner which, in their there again, we have women in charge of his life, which he couldn't stand and he again to house and they really like the feeling of being in control of someone His house, nobody was in there, but he just liked that began to fantasize about napping young women and putting them in what he called girl traps in me
we can then do what he wanted to do. So it started with fantasies when he was young and now as an adult, these fantasies began to escalate and then he just one day beside his and he saw a woman and her daughter, Julio Taro and her daughter walking any dist followed them to where they lived in his vanity. Is began to be more like I'm going to do this I'm going to do this now is nineteen seventy four in Wichita Kansas. And it was January. Fifteenth his wife went to work and he got up and went to the Oh Tara House, any again and he murdered for people doesn't seem like a big jumped to you to sort of being someone who is in Europe. In the financial world, but then the killing for people, including a man right yet but he didn't expect the man was home. So what happened so he shows up in the house. He shows up, as is actually didn't, he's he's in the back yard. He sees that they have a dog
it didn't realize it is in the backyard he's not so sure that he's gonna go in, but the little boy came out called for the dog and it was over He knew he had to go in. The boy had seen him once he was in the house, he realized he's now got a father, mother and two kids he's got to deal with. All of them cause they're witnesses and it really wasn't well play and he did not expect Joseph O Taro senior to be there, but he had been in a car accident, so he was home recovering So this was just not something that is added jump for business wanted to be a serial killer and say he goes and kills four people. It wasn't that he thought he was going to maybe encounter the two kids, but he knew he could get rid of the little boy quickly. Sounds cool, but that was in his mind that is going to adopt the mother and daughter and Take them to a barn because Barnes figured Vegan, his fantasies and none of it worked out.
The way he wanted it to work out. So he just tie them up in and strengthen them. I was able menaces not from what I've seen. Not a big guy necessarily mean how Was he able to overcome for people? I mean I can't even deal with me twin daughters. At the same time, how do you wrangle for people? They had a gun and he made them believe in and here's the psychopathic part he had this idea that if Make people feel safe and, like nothing, bad will happen. And they relax their guard, and so he pretended to be fugitive outline is your car. I just need some money mechanism If you do it, I say, but I'm to have to tie you up and once once he has M under control is not the only one. There's quite a few people manage this by themselves. You make people scared enough and believe that is on his way. Obey you you're gonna be ok, that's what they want to believe in that second psychopaths take advantage
and once he had them all tied up, there's nothing. They could have done Kill the dog and elsewhere. Question did not kill the dog it like dogs, ok, just to make it clear you ve spent time with. Raider. Yes, it was interesting because it actually started with someone else, who had approached rater when he was, and he got away with this. For thirty years he was arrested, took two thousand five after he had killed ten people and once he was arrested, another person wanted write a book with him. Have him tell a story and she wrote him for five years for dinner, produce a book, and I saw her on Facebook, and I asked you whatever happened to your book, because it was. There were newspaper articles about her and she begged me to take it over Jude she didn't want to do it and she wanted someone else to do it.
So so then I had to go through a certain process with the victims. Families attorney before they approve what I wanted to do, but the fact that I wanted to write a book that would benefit criminal justice and law enforcement, they appreciated that. So you made it clear to them that you wouldn't be exporting, the victims or glorifying him. They knew. I could write a book by because I've written quite a few and that I certainly was a serial killer expert as well as an academic with credentials, so that gave it a seriousness that it wasn't going to be tabloid. So all of that happened and during that time raider and I played chess games in the mail so that we kind of figure out where we're gonna go with this, and I was able to take the five years of correspondence between him and the other person to get a start, and I didn't expect was in take me five years to two.
This a lot of it has to do with all the back and forth with all the legal stuff. But during that time I visited him, and then we began weekly phone call and then he started writing very long letters detail that may like twenty page letters, Sir between all of that Also. I was friends with the Da Her prosecuted, so she gave me access to her files I knew some of the police officers and Bob's. I talk to some of the victims. Families. So between with with all of that, I had a lot of material to work with, but primarily his letters. I would say where the best the worse was actually visiting him, because the guards would hang out. Listen, we had a really. He wanted to do this all in code. So that was a challenge. Why and code you? Why did you could proper practical reason? They don't want the guards to see what he was sending out, but
also because he fancied himself a spy? So he liked the idea- and it was a test to me. What I would I play an you did. For years I played- and I made the code that we eventually use. Can you get forgetting his so he so interesting way here I am a female in charge, which is when he didn't like, and yet we worked together very well actually so after four after those murders, what happens he's got away with it? Even though, is messy bright so where? Where is he in his mind? At that point, he thought he would get caught. He was pretty scare, He did not get caught, so he felt empowered and within three months he had murdered the next person. But this time he was more careful except that he still made mistakes like Norman victim, and it was a young woman. He thought he had unified somebody who didn't have dogs are people.
Life for men, but she had a brother who showed up with her when he had what he likes to do is put himself inside a house and be the Boogie man jumping out of the closet or startling you because you're completely off guard. You think your house is safe. You walk in here's men, it's not like somebody breaking in your house when you're in there, because you can call the police. You can get a gun you can,
this is about him. Taking you completely off guard you have. No resources is a sphere for him. Is that the the real drive it doesn't sound like sex, necessarily what the two are together? Definitely, the fear is erotic to him. Making people afraid and feeling dominant over females is erotic to him. He did not have sex with victims. So what happened, but he had a highly erotic experience when he was strangling someone. He tried different methods and decided where he liked to strangling people. He liked posing bodies emerges the idea of handling these these female bodies and having complete control over them. Spares similar to,
Bundy said when whence he got caught, Dahmer said about men. They like control because he large control he felt in his life, but he didn't lack control men. He was the primary breadwinner, his wife, you have a job but whose primary breadwinner had kids. He was at the time the vice president of his church Congress asian and then became the president. That's when gonna get caught the. How was demonstrator able to juggle all of those different roles that he played in his life? So if, for now, family man is working, that's what they're going to present to you, but they taking weekly change to dip inside? If the opportunity arises that they consider to be in their self interests? There not rooted in identity. The way most of us are so it's hard work. I understand this because most of us, you see ourselves in a certain way and one I think, there's
Consistency in our presentation to people on there is integrity in the things that we say that if I said this, I mean there's and you're gonna see this me say the same thing tomorrow, that's not in their thinking at all. They don't really care of their town, the truth or not, but they care but has to get with their out for, and so they can give it to the very next thing so fast, and an you cannot say and the heap, and if you have an record, you could be recording what they say. They are not even than acknowledging, because they know it doesn't matter. If you tell them, you just lie. I have you on tape. You lied so, though, shrug it up and walk away, and maybe they can manipulate you if they can't the vote to the next person, but they take from you everything that they possibly can
she's a vampires. If you let them in, they will take what they can and then they move on after they ve tapped you out to the next person. You don't have to be criminals to do that. They can take all kinds of things from you, emotionally finance You know this share a bank account now your monies mine, there's so many things I can do that don't rise to a level of criminality because they're watching you as predators You are not going to have the same tools: deal with them as they have to deal with it since it so to back to the question: how can we spot them? I think you can spot the low functioning ones fairly easily because they make mistakes. That's why they're getting prisoners, whether you're caught they're, not that
bright. They, u can spot their inconsistency is fairly quickly and sometimes they give off of abide that you just thank you and I don't want to be around this person, but the high functioning ones, think you have a very hard time spawning them until you already in their web you're. Already friends with them or you're, already interrelationship or possibly married or living in the same house or you are there, your roommate you're already in something with them and they ve already figured you have before you had a chance to do them. Ok, so obviously he was a good manipulator. Did he ever lose control at any point, he didn't lack controlling he. There were times he lost jobs in and what not, but we note his final job was a compliance off sir. He would go in and
before that he was installing security systems mean that's not really, alas, control he had achieved a college degree, so not really lost control there for him. Ok, let's go back to nineteen seventy four so the break in were raider thinks the woman will be alone and she brings her brother home. I'm Catherine bright not happen that three months after the terrors and he thought he had sculpted allowed turns out. He hadn't and unexpected ways she brought She came home and her brother was with her and there was a scuffling in return thought he was going to die because Kevin Bright grabbed his gun and, and he really thought it was over for him and he shot Kevin twice thinking he was gonna die, but Kevin ran
and that ruin the whole thing for raider, because now we have to hurry, and this is always what's in his mind. He says things like I'm unlucky because something always interfere with everything. I want to do no bad weather condition tens or you know somebody it's coming their expected Paul, so I never got it a good shot. All that I fantasized about very poor me, which is very similar to the second, That's cycle paths are all about, I'm the victory, they blame others. They feel They wine the wine exciting about whining psychopaths,
I'm talking with Doktor Catherine Rams Land who spent five years interviewing serial killer Dennis raider. She mentioned this checklist, so we're going to pause for a minute and I'll explain a little bit more about it. It's the criteria that expertise to diagnose a patient with psychopathy. It's called the hare checklist graded decades ago by researcher Robert hair. It's basically a twenty item: symptom raining scale that includes pathological, lying lack of remorse, lack of empathy, Percinet lifestyle,
sexual promiscuity, impulsivity just to name a few but whining didn't make the list and Dr Ramsin thinks it should have. I once asked Robert Hare: why did he not add that to the psychopathy checklist because to buy mine? That's the number. One thing is they're always whining about their circumstances, because it's all about them, it's all about them, but they don't even see that they put themselves in these circumstances- and I think he said something like when I had twenty two items. Rather
Then twenty and the revised version that was one of em, why you should have taken that went off. That's what I see, no matter what I mean every single identified, psychopath back, who is is some kind of public figures. So usually there criminals lines about their situation and is so hard to have any empathy for them, because they have so little insight about how they got in these situations and that they wouldn't have been in these situations if they had committed these crime done these horrible things to other people, but they minimize it raider will even say he's a good person who did some bad things and he's the only one Bundy said it DOM said it there.
They they do see that, since my murderers are a small part of my life and on terms of how much time I spent in everything else, then you can't really say I'm a bad person, cause. I do all these things like, I hope my name, I'm a good father. If so, what he's himself permission to do all these things. They really can't see that the decisions they made to harm others and to not have any feeling for their the harm. They've done not just to those people with all the reverberation. Into their families as well was uppermost in their minds, is all about me about me and if it didn't work out, his unlucky or something was unfair. I mean there was a time when it has. A daughter gave an interview to the new. Papers, but ten years this is
ten years after he was arrested and shave. You know talks in a very emotional way about how, this was for her and her family and their victims too, and he just doesn't seem to understand how he harmed us and Rader saw the interview and What he said to me was you see. I got my name in the paper and that's the way he was all the time. He never had any sense of the people he harmed. His victims belong to him and if he didn't have You have time to do something that he wanted to do to them. It was bad luck in and something when against term and a whining its mining. The serial killer from my first book, deaf in the air, John Regional Christie, used to keep photos of himself in his prison cell anyone's pointed
his penis and told the prison guard. This is the reason why everybody's he I mean access, thought how incredible this man has never gotten attention. At all he just sort of always blended into the wallpaper, and that's what I've always thought about dinner raider, just somebody who's, never gotten attention and now he's getting all at once. Everything that he's wanted and how pathetic that is well, but it isn't that he never got attention he was He was a person in the church. He had some of them stand. Some authority, and he was complete. I answer the syrian and people had to obey him,
he told them. Their grass is too long or their dog was running around or something so isn't that he got nine. It is indian enough in his mind it's all about their perception and their perception is filtered through poor me. For me, the wine it's always filtered through that up and the same thing with Eileen WAR has clearly psychopathic female. Why was there ever a poor me pour me and yet, of course, she did have some problems, but boy did she victimized people and not just the men she murdered man whom she got married to those older, really older, guy lot older than her and then just spend his money ended.
You know she just didn't care. She didn't care, except for herself, okay, but how do we even know how to categorize somebody like that? Well, the difficulty with categorizing a female psychopath is that we haven't done that much research on them and the tools we've used have more developed for mail compares with the mistake. An idea that anything that comes at a price. Searches males will apply equally to females and refining that that is probably not true. So now we have to rethink the idea, how a female psychopath might operate and turns out that a lot of women, her Agnes Borderline personality disorder might in fact be psychopath, but we ve tended to think of them borderline has being of female of disorder and we tend not to think of females being psychopath, and I think this has a lot to do.
Many of the theories were developed by males who really did not want to think about women being psychopathic, because that's very uncomfortable the idea of mothers being cycle. As why being Psychopass is very uncomfortable and I've certainly met police his officers and attorneys and psychologists, even who really don't wanna. Thank that women can be that bad. We still have people who don't wanna, go the distance with this and really believe that this is it could be. I think that when when they made the movie of Eileen, warn us, for example, as she does definitely come up as a psychopath on the psychopathy checklist. However, when they made the movie, they gave her all kinds of excuses, so they they bent the facts they made her girlfriend. Look small and she wasn't small out of work
but she had a job so they made it. Look like the reason I mean warn us was so violent was because of all the things that have happened to her and the fact that she had to take care of your girl, friend and and and they gave her every out. I thought it was unfair, first of all to women to believe in some way can't rise to know some kind of crime. That males can can rise to. I think they absolutely can and have but when I saw that movie it was clear to me. People, just don't want to accept that a woman can be a coal hearted, remorseless angry killer and she even said that about herself she said the
Let me add I'll, do it again and it sounds like Dennis. Raider was exactly the same way, let me just say so from his success with killing people here he began the thing about every potential. Sarah Keller is this, and at least those who fantasize about it when they do it when they actually murder. That is a turning point, one where the other either its wow. This isn't all is correct. It
to be. I don't want to do this again now I have a body and it's icy, and I don't want to do it, wasn't anything like my fantasy and I don't want to do it and they then do not become serial killers if they like it, and it is all it's cracked up to be or more they're set now, for I need to do this again and with raider doing it again. It did take some time because there was three months between the first and second, but then almost three years before the next one, because he became a father and he was busy and he did stuff. But in his Mind he's always thinking this is the heat. This is what matters this is, who I really am, no matter what I'm doing
on the side with my social contracts, what what? What I am is a killer, and I want to be acknowledged that some day somehow so he's always looking for potential victims and the circumstances warrant. Always correct for him to act out, but it is always stocking peeping in windows watching for opportunities. So when people say something about raider and commonly there's an idea that Rader stopped. That is not what he says. I failed, and so that's what's more interesting about it. He wasn't always outlook like Bundy was out of control. Finally, toward the end it just I just got to kill DOM or two I mean he just
accelerated what what he was doing but could keep control over it, but it was always his real sensibly was that the heat of it, the Beating heart of his identity was that he was a serial killer and he wanted to be a famous one there Ben metaphors to try to care Try this sensitive when, when a psychopath has a goal in their like on it, speeding, train they. Then they don't think about caused negative consequences. There just completely banned down the reward, no matter what so high functioning psychopath. Is going to be a little more clever whether there I can smart or street smart or whatever it will be there, to realize. I dont want to end up in prison so, even though I want that thing and is, Hence the law. I don't want
and I ve been present some going to find a way to get it that is with them legal realms. Setting high functioning is going to just be more creative. He once be adjourned the ripper and reaching out to the media rehashing reaching out to the media playing the games. He was playing and believing that, if in our he left something behind after he died I'd somebody would open a safety deposit box or something and got while it was Dennis Raider and he took great satisfaction in getting away with that, but everybody knowing he got away with it. So that was an interesting aspect of him that I saw constantly coming forward in in our discussions in the things that he said ass. He wanted that fame, but he did ever want to really think about emotional or moral consequences
Anything that surprised you about him was that what you just said with surprise. You nothing surprising, because I mean I've studied. Syria causes lots and lots of them way before him. So well he's an outlier and that interested me they didn't surprise waving his eye. I have never been one who likes psychological formulas. I think people are more diverse and more interesting and complicated than most of the formulas allowed them to be. So. For me, that was intriguing define some like him. That demonstrates that- and I think, he's a good lesson for us So, let's pause for a moment to catch up after Cathy Bright, Dennis Raider killed five more people in one nine hundred and seventy seven. He killed two women and at this point he became irritated by the lack of media coverage. So he wrote a letter to a local tv station in Wichita and said how many people do I have to kill, but
for I get a name in the paper or some national attention than nothing that we know of. He waited eight more years before killing his neighbour and nineteen, eighty five and the net cheer. He murdered another woman than his fine. Victim was Dolores Davis and nineteen. Anyone when he strangled the sixty one year old in her home, he didn't get caught till two thousand five. He went. To lead a normal life, although he was always watching for opportunities. Any had planned another one that didn't come off and it was about ready to retry it when he was caught and it was caught by some things too playing this cat mouse game with police were kind of cat and mouse game he what he used to do as it send them these things. He was writing these chapters of his story and it is, he go copy them take the copies in common
in a different copier until he had several generations of copies so that it couldn't be traced to a copier, and I got tired of that and I didn't have the same time time used to have because he he had to report back to his wife, he asked. Could I use a floppy disk? Instead, he took one that he used to take notes for church had he used a brand new one, it would have been, I think, as easy for them to catch him as they did, but he didn't he is he's on his name on it and it was traced back to the church where he had used computer and is the ministry worked with new that and they got Ganem stupid mistake stupid mistaken and to this day he knows it was stupid, any kicks himself for it so demonstrators, the guy who craves attention, but someone you would never expect to be a psychopath right, some one who ultimate he kills ten people, he just
ten percent as one is what you're saying. So these guys gonna sneak up on us to support every psychopathy a researcher who spends day in and day out on this topic will admit they can be duped by a psychopath, so it would be Is that really very smart to try to think you ve got, You know all the red flags, you know what they are you're, always going to be safe from psycho Pass, because you're always going to know because you're, not I mean they're very good at you know, out how to leverage you at this one article, The six things psychopaths know about you: makes you unsafe and it. Use is common human tendencies, for example. If here in a new place in Euro, uncertain and they're watching you
I can see your uncertain. They know you're going to respond to a kind person offering you directions or maybe even hate. You need a place to stay to my house people do that as they trust somebody who stands a kind hand or as a psychopath no, that you going to tend to appreciate somebody has very confident and seemed to know what they're doing, who has credentials will psychopath one hesitate to lie about how confident they are or their so they don't have any sense of truth. They have no commitment to truth, have commitment only to themselves. So without a commitment to truth you're going to spot that that sort of hesitation of who I'm lying. Should I be lying that you can see in people who, might have some degree of remorse so to think that you're gonna spot them first you're wrong. There is the problem
They've been watching you and they know the kinds of things you as an, ordinary human being tend to do and what would you respond to and they're gonna use that against you in every way that they can before you even think about? Could this person be a psychopath they're going to circumvent that if their, if their clever they're going to circumvent that before you even have a chance to evaluate them and then they're gone. On the next episode of wicked words. There's a soft knock at the door and she's like I can't keep him out. I mean he can crash the door down, so she opens it. He says, I'm sorry, I think you have my t shirt so. He takes his teacher turns to leave him freely. She says you don't know me. I live on the other side of town and leaves
If you love historical, true crime, please check out my books, American Sherlock and death in the year. This has been an exactly right tenfold. More media production, Alexis Morose is our producer. Andrew Ethan is our sound designer Ella Middleton as a researcher for Us Curtis Heath does the composition. Nick toga did the artwork and Ilsa Brain design, website, executive producers our Georgia hard, stark. Karen kill, Gareth and Daniel Kramer follow wicked words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold, more wicked and on twitter at tenfold more. If you are in advertising interested in advertising, our show go to mid role, dot com, slash ads, and if you know of a historical, true crime story that could use some attention from the crew a tenfold more wicked email us at info at tenfold, more wicked dot com, listen subscribe and leave us a review on upon CAS stitch her or wherever you get. Your blog casts.
Transcript generated on 2021-07-19.