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interviews with just show excellent and about different themes that I decided to combine them into one epic episode for your enjoyment. First interview you will hear is the most recent one and then Our annual here, are interview from a few months ago. Take your time. Listen to one today in one tomorrow doesn't matter, I'm just so grateful to you all and to Adam special episode of on purpose enjoy, Everyone will come back to on purpose the number one health podcasting in the world thanks to each and every single one of you that come back every week to listen, learn and grow. Now. I know that we talk a lot about learning. We talk a lot about growing. We talk a lot about thinking differently. today we are actually talking about I'm learning, which will be

all the things that we need to reflect on and maybe rewire and renew our thoughts about, because speaking with one of our favorite guess on a one of the few people overplayed twice the one and only Adam grant an organizational psychologist. Wharton he's been recognised one of the world's ten most influential management thinkers he's also New York Times best selling author, whose sole millions of copies of his books on generosity, driving excess nonconformist, moving the world and billion and resilience after adversity. He currently rights, New York Times about work psychology and host work life, a podcast, how to make work, not suck his latest book thing again is the topic of our conversation today. Adam welcome back to on purpose. I comrades to buy a new book and I'm so the adjoining s again. Thank you jam thrilled,

here, although I think it might be by accident, because I know it's best to be one in done, so I don't know how I got back a second time, but I'm grateful to be here well. I'm happy. Have you back, you know I get into view about so many different topics. I'm glad that we're getting to go deeper, today, I wanted to start slightly cod and I No there's before actually, but I saw on your website that you have a section called wondering where you are A fascinating questions by readers. I was wondering, what's the most crazy off the world question ever had and I want to know how you responded Oh the decree, the first question I think I've ever gotten was. Can you help me fight medical malpractice lawsuit No, I'm not a lawyer or a doctor. I have no idea what did area I said: Lily LISA, a few people who, I think might be helpful, and I never heard back with that kind of you to intervene.

And some people when they ve come for unsolicited era, random advice and it's it's nice that you are honest with them. I I can imagine if people having a bit of fighting, giving some advice so that just sounded cruel. I felt like this This is obviously somebody who does not know where to turn for help and what I can to try to point them in a productive direction, but not really sure what came of it Well, you do the same with your new book. Think again, You know what I've been diving through? The pages and and and looking at all the themes and topics you covering, I feel like this books to cover. So many of today's b, yes challenges and mindset. That we're all struggling with challenges that we're all having in our lives tell me why thought now's the time to write to think again. Based firstly, all the years of study that you ve done for it, but why was now the right time to get people to think again?

I actually didn't realize it was when I started working on think again. It was three years ago that I started writing it, and it just grew out of my frustration with people who were clinging to now that was no longer accurate for a world that is changed a lot or who wish we're stuck to opinions? That clearly, it was time to question and maybe complex little bit and I felt like ok? This is a great time to say. I've spent my careers and organizational psychologists thinking again right. My job, to rethink how we work, how we lead how we live our lives. But I never really explored the process of thinking again and done a deeper. Into the question of how do update our own opinions and assumptions. How do we open other? people's minds and how do we build cultures of learning? So I said: to write this book and then the pandemic when swam about halfway. Writing it and suddenly we are all forced to rethink all these things that we ve taken for granted most of our lives, even something as it is. Can I hung my grandparents or

go and eaten and indoor restaurant or will be live sports on tv and given all the rethinking that we ve had to do because of the pandemic. It seem like the right time to try to give you general framework. First how to think about it. Yeah asking we need to think again is is quite a bold thing to do. because we feel so safe our regret, you take, did Patrick oriented towards like? I feel that? and now a lot of what I hear is a winner. Things going to go back right, I'm still hearing them and we hear things like well when, whether things going to be normal again and their feels like it feels like we have such a hold as humans on safety Shorty stability didn t and idea of things. Staying the same that when you say think again

well, actually that's a lot of work like it's almost were scared to death. So tell me about what you found in one we so obsessed with things stay the same and and having that same thought and wit where's. The root of the Its ironic that you're asking me this question has a monk you specialise in helping I understand and accept in impermanence. So let me ask you why do you think we're so much attached to our ideas and opinions as opposed to being willing to question Adam you switching switching the interview over already getting everyone to think again how they should doktor their interview questions. Never never allowed for this. From from a very monk spiritual perspective, the idea would be is that we are all why it for spontaneity for growth for ever expansion, but

Our education draw parenting through the conditioning of what we have experienced in this cereal wowed. We ve become safer or feel safer in this false safety net of stability and from a social point of view. The idea would be that there is no such thing as stability. There is no security, every from the cells in our body through to our minds through to every part of us and is mature world is constantly changing and the idea of holding onto something the route. That is because we feel now, we ve been trained to believe that that's how you survive. That's how you that's, how you're happy that's how you you scared of almost taking a risk of it may happen if I let go of days when when you live in a sprucely abundant life. You already know that move men and growth and expansion is the only way that you feel happiness so from over

spread your point of view. I get answer in many different ways, but from the very start Two point of view that would be seen as the route that that tracks very closely with what we say in psychology. Geez, I first of all there is there just a basic ego threat. There comes admitting that your opinions of change, because that me you're saying you know what I was wrong and a lot of people that makes them question their intelligence they worry that everyone else is going to find out that they're a fraud in it. It plays India Mr Syndrome, and then there is also a challenge of unpredictability that, if I need change. My opinions every day or every hour, or even every week or month, then how do I make sense of a world that is not so still under my feet and ethical? People are uncomfortable with that idea and they like to maintain a sense of control by saying look, if I stick to the comfort of conviction and avoid discomfort of doubt, then I can like, I have a grip on the around me?

and then I think, there's a social peace it s too, which is belonging. If, if I I am willing to rethink some my views, I'm putting myself for being expelled from my group. I might be in some ways challenging my tribe and that's it exclusion that risk of loneliness is obviously easier to steer clear of yet So where do you draw the line between thinking? Again, being, stable and feeling like you're in a safe space like how do you? How are you going to draw that line because I feel like from your studies, I'm sure you found places where it was good to not think again. Nor yet our good do not question, and most sometimes overcome. Nick leads to over thinking and of ran and procrastination, tell us about the boundary yeah very tricky, is probably a tightrope walk for a lot of people, bed my reader, the evidence is that when people start to make their opinions their identity, they get in trouble

you believe, a bunch of things and you say well, that's who I am and I just love for people to imagine, rewinding the clock, half a century or a century or more and say: okay, if you major opinions or your beliefs, their identity and lets say you're, a teacher you might have seen yourself as a corporal punisher cracking job. It is to discipline students, or if you are a doctor, you had a sad. Alright, I'm a professional le bottomest and, I do is I can I solve all kinds of medical problems by taking out part of the frontal lobe or if a police officer. You might have seen yourself more recently as a stop and friskers and the with all these identities is their attached to policies and practices that we now know are counterproductive. And what we want is to build our identities around our values and that's her looking for a little bit more stability and ground. So I go to the doktor who says, Values around protecting and promoting health, and I'm open?

rethinking what are the best procedures to do that right. I wanna go The police officer who says I'm here to promote justice and safety and not sure what the best ways to do that our, but I'm in a look at the data. definitely want to send my kids at the teacher who says I'm here, to help kids learn first and foremost, and I'm not gonna commit to any one way of doing that and I don't know that we should always freeze our values right. I think they should evolve to bed it's a lot easier for me to say my core values are generosity, excellence, integrity and freedom, and I'm gonna be pretty flexible about learning that the most effective ways to live by those values. What do you think about that? I think that such a great distinction- I've never heard it put that way, but I really appreciate that, for me, that's been really clarifying about how your values, as you said, that only to be frozen, they can bacon evolve as well, but the idea is that? You have a set of values, but your

flexible and adaptable about how they come to life at different times in your life and- and I often say people like? I love? books that I studied living as among and I got so much value from them and I obviously share them, but I'm always oh bread to dust. Offering something some new spiritual truth that I'm not a cost tour aware of when I'm speaking to someone, because I just to be a seeker of the truth and- and I think That allows me to have this very deep affinity for the work that I've done, but not a sentimental attachment to them. If they make sense- and I think that's what I was getting from you- is that often we this sentimental attachment to our beliefs, because we feel they define us as opposed. Feeling well, I have this very strong loyalty bud still able to peruse in and search and discover.

I think you now that attachment is such a barrier for so many people to rethinking opinions and ideas that are no longer serving them well and this this is. just true with the things we believe about the world right. It's also true for the plans that we make So you mentioned a lot of people are asking: when are we going back and obviously I beg you We both say will. Actually, Let's just try to move forward, but is common for people to to get attached to early images that they formed of how they wanted to live their lives and who they wanted to be right anyway, Whoever was asked the question is a kid. What do you want to be when you grow up? and had an answer like well, I'm gonna be a lawyer or I'm going to be a doctor and then twin thirty years later, still locked into that plan. Never The questioning does that make sense. For me, there there's a term in psychology for that is called identity for closure, and it idea of seizing and freezing to early on a sense of who you want to be before you ve, really explored alternatives, and I

The danger of that is what you want, You value what you're looking for life is going to evolve over time and I think we need our entities to evolve with that yeah absent. Lily. I can agree more and I guess people's struggle with thinking again: because we're almost like. Where do we start like what what value start on what part of your life. Do you start on in your studies? Where did you find a good place to start thinking again? Let because I feel it opening up like a can of worms like childhood trauma, United sighted people Buddha starts, and where did you stop yeah I honestly, don't know the answer that question. I think it's gonna be a little different for everyone, but which is Let's continue under the plan path for a second and say: ok, a lot of people have career regrets right there started down a path and then they they. victim the escalation of commitment to a losing course of action which has granted You invest time and energy and money in a path?

you discover you know it. This isn't quite what I wanted it to be. Set of cutting your losses. You double down. economists will say that's because of some cos. You don't want to admit that you ve wasted all that time and money. But the psychological factors are even more important ego and image I don't want to look in the mirror and admit to myself that I made a stupid decision and I want to pay to everybody else that I made a smart one and so caught in this self justification spiral. Rationalizing my past choices, as opposed to rethink them and when I have advised my students to do for years is to say: look, you know it. You go to the doctor or the honest when you're healthy couple times here, just for a check up, maybe we have career checkups, put a reminder in your calendar twice a year to ask her Have I reached a learning plateau in my job or a lifestyle? Platter, for that matter, Have I learn something new about what my strengths are, or my values are and is it? supported this culture is no longer serving those and, I think, having

kind of check. Point is a great way to keep yourself honest and make sure that Do some rethinking about what your plans are, and I don't think to be limited to career right. I think we could do occasional marriage checkups. We could do all kinds of life decision checkups. I think a lot of people have done this during the pandemic saying we do it where in the world do I want to live. I don't need. Its to the city that I've been for the last eight years. That's it practical piece of advice, and- and I love that one and we're scared of asking. Now I want to talk to me about that fear of addressing that, because we're scared of asking question because of the idea of what, if my job in the now from tomorrow. I know I hate my job and then I'm just gonna depressed or if I question about my partner, then maybe we need to get a divorce or maybe we need to break up. How do we care of fear of even asking that question and thinking again, because that seems to be one of the biggest blocks to

then getting to that point of doing that? Cieca, I think it is, and the place output our job is to say let slip, consider regret in the long run, our biggest regrets are, not our inactions, their typically our actions, science at a backward urge. I voted gee. I think a lot of this is about regret in the long run the decision that we tend to regret are not our actions there in actions the chances that we didn't take, and I think in a lot of cases rebuilding your career or rethinking relationship is scary. You know it scarier. Never even considering that possibility in the first place, and so you look I've everybody's afraid of taking a risk or failing at some level What we want to do remember that we should be even more afraid of failing to try a new Europe means a fresh start and a chance to change the way you care for the planet. Now is the perfect time to make your home healthier happier and more sustainable growth. Collaborative grew

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feel so much better after letting go of that stress to someone who is eager to help that help is online therapy that off his video phone, and even live chat sessions with you, a therapist Ceuta. to see anyone on camera? If you dont want to its much more affordable than investment therapy and you can be made with the terror based in underfoot, eight hours give it a try and see why over two million people have used better help online therapy. This part is sponsored by better help, and on as radiation listeners- get tempers, and of their first month better help dot com forward, slash this: b e t t h, e lp dot com, wait. Slash purpose yeah, I think regrets is as such. big one that I that I have often thought about a law and is and has helped me so much of my life, I remember

Even even before I started creating content. It was, I remember, asking myself would, I regret not trying Obviously, when you start something, I'm sure you ve felt this when you Studying a wind when you became a north for the first time. It's almost like will ivory. Not trying, because you don't know if it's getting to work and and yours Oh right than now look back and I think wow I would have had massive regrets, not because you know where things can go but to be. In that same place again and again and again and again and again, and I think so what we don't remember is that we're always worried about what. If the next step doesn't work out, not realizing that this step around right now is in feeling great either. I think, there's so much wisdom in that and funny place that you can see it is with students who are taken tests. Where you see that students are really reluctant once they up with an answer to change their response? Even

the data show that on average, if you we are willing to override your first instinct, you actually improve your score. Hilariously, when we tell students this still are reluctant to rethink their answers, and I regret as a huge factor here because imagined the pain of saying I had the right answer and I undid it Opposed to, if I just stick to my god- and I don't- think it won't. It doesn't seem like I was ever gonna get it right in the first place, and I think we're, not careful that can obviously steer us in the wrong direction. That's crazy Even when you tell people still it's in the example that they still Don't change like why? Why is it that how many times you have to hear something to know that it works out of every figure this out, like What do we need? What is needed genuinely change like what is needed to genuinely think again and an act on that thinking.

I think probably the most relevant it I've seen is from studies of leaders introducing organizational changes and trying to bring a new visions intuitive. more into a company average in the classic data leaders and communicated their visions by a multiple of eight. Times less often people needed to hear the vision they explained it ends A lot of that is because, once you come but the vision it makes perfect sense to you crystal clear in your head right use, days or weeks or months or maybe years thinking through this and The first time you said, you everyone else gets it, but obviously they dont the first time you explain it. I don't know for any person whether that multiple is under communicating by three or seventeen, but I've got average. We probably under do it for the most part and What I can tell leaders is the moment. You'll know that historically gotten therapy, is when they say. Ok enough already, I get it, tired of hearing. It That's when you now, you ve really got your point across,

yeah, it's almost like you, don't know every time you feel you ve over said, if you haven't until that person things you ve over said it exactly I guess until you feel your team or Europe. They can complete your sentence. right. It's it's always like Yahoo. Google, like Google, can auto complete because it knows what most of us are taking all of the time in the idea that if I was going to say something and you could complete my sentence, chances are I've, said it way too much. It's like it's like that feeling when your friend or your partner, sizzling, that guy you ve, told me that story like seventy two times like I know exactly what you I know exactly what you mom. Doesn't that scenario whatever may be? Yes, that's a good king system I like that, I really like that. I think I think I undervalue that to you we soon. Everyone thinks like us, we and I would say the most, the most powerful form of persuasion itself persuasion, and that means that instead of having to repeat your

And over and over again you explain it once or twice and then you people who are taking in their own words and what they often think they're doing is, is trying to get other people fired up. But really what they're doing is their internalizing. It ends convincing themselves that this is a good idea. Yeah I've yeah. You mentioned in your book that people tend to slip into three. What does there's a few bad? is one more by the mindset of three different professions when they think and talk and of this. I really really like she's a preacher politician and prosecutor teller, A bit about those give us some examples of those so that we can understand, and everyone is listening and watching? What I want you to do is act on when you fall into one of these, because we all fall into them a different times in our life. So if a listening right now we're watching, please like Don Adams guiding us through when in your life, you do one of these things so Adam of such a fund direction a guy.

I hardly know where to start in part, because when I think about my life is an organizational psychologists is incredibly peculiar to me. That, although I've never worked as a preacher, a prosecutor or a politician, somehow all those occupations managed to waltz into my mind, drachma daily life, I think that's sure, for all of us, at the european idea, comes for a brilliant paper that my colleague filled out red and the is that we are social creatures, they were very concerned, our standing in the world and what other people think of us. That allowed his hive about at the time we think we're making rational decisions were actually paying a ton of attention where we fit into a social hierarchy when we're in preacher mode. We believe that we have found the truth and our job is to go out and proselytize our sacred sacred beliefs and get up, people on board with them. Prosecutor mode sort of the reverse. That's about saying you know it: I've got away argument, You are wrong.

Politician mood is essentially campaigning for the approval of an audience I tried to lobby to get a tribe on board with what it, whatever you think they want to hear are trying to earn their admiration in some way, and The thing that I worry most about is, if you're in preacher, prosecutor mode, you don't do enough. Rethinking as you already believe, you're right and effort, is run, so why you ever change your mind. and a politician mode. We see more flexibility, but a kind of looks like football right. I don't. I don't really believe what I'm saying, I'm just trying to appease my audience and cater to what they want to hear, and so looks like I am I'm reef get the wrong times and maybe, for the wrong reasons, jammed curious of these three, goods which one is your biggest device fisheries, my biggest vice. It would Definitely for years I would say to the preacher, one for sure, like I think I think, for years and

find that, especially when you're in an early stage, formative stay of a set of beliefs. reach is very natural, so I remember when I first started. Getting involved in spiritual teachings. Is that Please you to my parents, everything that my friends and you like. Here's how you should have raised me exactly and you like, pushed everyone in your life away from you, because using you figure it out, and you forget that this person has a bit more age. They have a bit more maturity that does this. things that common come with life in time and experience, and so I think for long parts of my life in its fishing early stages of anything. I think I've naturally shifted. Today and then slowly tried to move away from that as much as I can hopefully into the fourth mindset which we talk about. But yes, in answer to your question, I see my his vices definition, the preacher mud interesting it. It I've thought about this over the years and

whenever I encounter somebody who, I think has is pretty frequently in preacher mode. I just think: ok, you know it highly effective. fur appealing to their existing followers right, because the group of people who are already drinking accolade and is very inspiring, and it gives you a sense that you ve Found some kind of enlightenment, but everybody else like. Why are you trying to fool sweet me, your wisdom right, I didn't sign up for this back off and so I think the more resistant are sceptical and audiences, the more likely that preaching as to backfire. Yes, I can agree with you more and I think that's that's right to realize that it is more. So is luckily, I I feel like I quoted early, were just like one. Actually, I only want to you I just Discover more and hence the pod costs has been phenomenal for that, because I'm sitting with people who can share

de as an inside that may be different to what I ve grown up, where the challenging sometimes and sometimes even spoken, debate in a positive sense, and so I think that's why, sitting down with people from I mean me and you didn't grow up in the same area, we didn't grow up on the same group of people and we. we don't even stay in fascinated necessarily the same types of thought, a daily basis and therefore this conversation allows me to do that and that's why I think the pods, or the idea of sitting down with some one is so powerful. It is even though one of us is having a very bad hair life great or a great. While you are a great line. So back Fourth mindset, which you say is almost like best mindset to be no one, that you encourage is the mindset of the scientists tell us about how we shouldn't

just look at that as like. Oh, I have to be like a scientist, but what that mine said actually leads yeah I am not suggesting that anybody has again become Einstein or bill, neither science guy, but that is you don't after work in a lab. You don't have to wear away care to carry around test tubes. I think about being a scientist as as a way of seeing the world if navigating your life, There was scientists. Value is truth. I tried to get closer to truth, even if, if they might never find it- and that means whenever opinions, they form our tentative there, there hunches, they might be hypotheses. And what I need to do as a scientist is when I have an idea, I want to go out in the world and explore whether its true and better. Yet, when it's true that mean I might run some little experiments. I might do observations. I might interview people right of arrogance. How this sort of ever apologist mode and the who is that I'm gonna discover sometimes that I was wrong and I am

discover information. The challenges, my beliefs, not just that affirms my beliefs and after I I think, that's what is about sharing right, evolving, our beliefs this validating, what we already think is true and I I am actually starting to rethink this a little bit because I think the data. The data are really compelling. So you now others there's an incredible experiment with italian founders, where Some of them are randomly aside. These are these: are entrepreneurs who are pre revenue and there's a control group who basic takes a couple months. Interpreter ship, coarse and there's another group that gets the same education in how to. our two business, only their taught to click scientists. And this is a little bit foreign for businesspeople right, but there there encouraged essay luck. You know at yours- your strategy, as just a theory about a future state of the world and how your company can succeed in it. Your customer of use. Those are ways to develop hypotheses about where your theory would be successful and you build a minimal viable product that is

experiment to run and then what data too, to find out. If your experiment worked or didn't say that troll group over the next year makes less than hundred? U S dollars and revenue on average per startup, the scientist group eggs over twelve thousand. U S dollars that year on average per start up, it's a staggering effect. and is driven by the fact that the scientists are more willing to pivot that when are encouraged to think like scientists. They say you're, not my My strategy might have been bad. My hypotheses might have been wrong. I'm to change gears as well? out there and said well. If we can teach business people to think more, like scientists have weakened they too. entrepreneurs to be a little bit more discipline that way and expand mental in their approach? That's actually good for their success in growth at was excited there, but I have a hunch that you know why I'm rethinking this now, what what are you, guess is maybe missing. From this perspective,

interesting. I wasn't thinking along those lines I was. I was agreeing with you now that you're ask no interesting yeah yeah. I was agreeing with you. I felt I felt like that makes a lot of sense. What's missing from the interesting I'd love to reflect in Africa, Gimme a second, let me please say a thing here. Let me think I wouldn't things missing from there. I was in agreement. You, because I found in my life and even as a meal, even as simply as a content creation, which is in what I am as a total by. If I look at that part of my life, Dat rule hold so true is that it you just say I only want to make this and I'm going to put it out. People may now watch it or connected or communicate with, engage with it. So what is missing? I wonder whether the the missing layer is, dear of. And then I could be totally wrong. The only the only thing I can think of is the idea of this.

governor and then commitment like when, when do you actually finally commit raw, then continually testing, casting jesting testing and that could just go on forever. That's the only thing that came to mind in that may be way off, but no that's fascinating that one of the couple of things that have been on my less right now. I guess one of two three specific, so yeah. I think there is. There is a risk that if your scientists you're always rethinking you're, always questioning you never believed that you found the truth. You just he ruled out a bunch of hypotheses that were wrong, but you know you only have a model and assisted approximation of reality. I think antidote that I've come across to that is something the Bob sudden has said four years, which is in his ear and attitude of wisdom is acting on the information you have while cause We doubting what you know. I think a good scientist probably does that the other thing, that I I've been crushing a little bed is: is

Is the scientists mindset pushing people too much word sort of formal quantitative inquiry right? and you can only arrive at knowledge through rigorous, ably attesting I you're you're such great person to it had around with, because I think I would abroad, and maybe when I really mean, as you wanna be in the mindset of a scholar, who has the humility and the curiosity to know it? They don't know and always searching for new insights and, of course, science, is one of the tools to do that, but, as you discovered him. Your life. There also spiritual pass to that kind of inquiry right I wonder what you're take his on the site. This versus the scholar as a minor, it's a great care I'm so glad by the way, the direction which you're taking this- and I love rethinking this with you. It's the first time. I've done this out loud, sir, was I guess it's great. I really trying to broach my life and

avenues. These terms before is how I see myself, but in the way you are discussing it of like us. Social scientist and what I mean by that is, I feel like to get things done you have to have the scientific approach, but I love look Yet in with intuition or like day so, with the dynamic nature of servers reality and I loved trying to find that almost like the middle of the Van diagram of where that collides, because that's where I final, real creativity is found. That's where I find like energies create It's almost like, I feel satisfied if I'm only internally. If I d tests that externally or if we just testing, though just are extremely, but it's not inspire from within and so to me. I love the juxtaposition of of both of those so the scholar and the scientists and as you said, because I feel like too many of Us- and this is part of thinking again to many of us all

to be just one thing and- and I often get the feedback of LA used to be a monk. How can you be in media like? How can you be in social media, yet usually goes the other direction right I just opened my heart and a modest, I'm literally just experimenting with what feels right to me like I ever write to me, but to become a monk when I was twenty two and unfair three now in this age, it feels really fright to bid. what I'm doing now and I'm allowing myself to grow and evolve and not have a say the identity, and so I feel the scholar and the scientists, together with a spiritual scientist together, can be really fascinating place for people to live there, diagram is such an exciting thing. When you are able to see the overlap there, there's example they jumped out at me when I was writing. Think again. We had a deal Trusting Daniel testing, now, Professor Sunni Buffalo, Danielle decided she was going to rethink the importance of ambition and leadership, and she said

I wonder if there's something to being a little bit reluctant as a leader. Having some hesitations about taking the helm, you might be concerned the applications for work life balance. You might be daunted by the responsibility in and worried about being racked with guilt. You might just be concerned that you're not qualified and she ended up it was it was hot. The study this, because there are not many people who writes a leadership roles that said now at a lot. It keep me out here. No vague you bitch studying charge, nurses in hospitals who get rotated and weather seat, the leadership role or not. Every every so well certain number of ships will go by and then it's basically your turn and so she was able to measure how reluctant they felt about leading and she fell but a little bit of reluctance actually predicted higher leadership effectiveness as rated by the people they work to F and that was in part because the rules, leaders were more willing to empower the people around them. They were likely to assume. I know all the answers they were more like

to seek out second opinions, and I thought with such a cool finding and then we talking about this and we started thinking through okay. Well, is this idea appeared and it turns out Plato had this inside. I saw it greek wisdom was in, the person that we want to electoral leadership role is the one who is very hesitant to be in charge and then Douglas atoms, read about it in a hitchhikers, guided the galaxy right. There me person we should want, as president is, though, who had no interest in doing the job and that's one of those moments where the Van diagram comes together, and you say: okay, if the great ancient greek philosophers, one of the great modern british cipher writers, and Erica evidence are converging. There might be something here yet. I love does example, observe glad you share those because that it's such a refreshing way of thinking. I think we always believed that the person who should get it personal puts themselves forward the person whose confidence

it's, you know, that kind of self believe that day were meant to be that person and I'm guessing there truth in that to sometimes that the best athletes, fyodor people who believe that they were going to be the best athletes of all time but at the same time, when you look a leadership and business and and even spiritual traditions, I mean that's very true of that's very true of a monk culture and and looking at spiritual rankings that the You went on to be the the master, the monster teacher. would rarely be the person who thought they were. The monster teacher would always be like humility was the key to the door, of that person not feeling they were worthy allowed them to be. The best in carrying leader We could use a lot more that humility in the world right now. I think a lot of people write it off, and understand humility as having those self esteem are having low opinion of yourself and if you go back

Latin rid of humility? It's actually being grounded its. It means from the earth right humility is about recognising hate we're all human were fallible were flawed. We have limitations, are weaknesses and, I think, if you see it that way, it becomes a source of strength, because if you can see or weaknesses more clearly- and you can, Brad how to overcome yeah right, I think, challenge that I'm a new provision is more working with organization so deeply that we keep. We reward a sorry what what we reward. We repeat and so with seeing people always war did for not being vulnerable or not being honest transparent and you'd. I remembered look. some you know studies on men and women approach job specifications, descriptions, and it was saying how women look at a job discussion, we like, oh, I can only do twenty five percent of that

I was man we're looking at all. I can do over fifty percent of that, and so it's like David com. And based on what they can do wears a woman may not, and so what I was free fasten about that. The over amplification in Hans beliefs is almost rewarded in a job interview you start to reconstruct that foreign and even me as an employer, and you work with some of the biggest employees and on the planet. How reconstruct then a healthy way so that You are hiring the right person eventually, because there's there's a bit that is a bit of a dichotomy that there is Victor place. I would start is tat. We ve got to stop confusing confidence for competence. as somebody believes they can do. Something is not a good proxy for their actual ability to do it and, in fact, say you're from it the dining Krueger effect in psychology defining, as that but who have the lowest emotional intelligence scores and also the Where's logical, zoological reasoning abilities are the moon.

likely to overestimate their abilities and you could just say ok, some of that. But it is also if you have no idea what emotional intelligence looks like it's really hard for me to judge whether you have it or not, the same, is true for illogical reasoning, skills and- think it a job interview context. The place I like to start is to ask people to to demonstrate whether bringing to the table right I'll, give them a try out I'll. Let them do a little bit of an experiment to show me their skills. I also, though, have started betting on people who underestimate themselves the little bit there is There is a great study, a good or a few years back of engineers, and this The gender differences you're just highlighting it turned out that way. Let it ratings of of how great you are as an engineer. I wonder I've scale in order for women to make it a Google, they had to give themselves a five. They had it, unassailable confidence to say look. I know I'm one of the best engineers in the world, other

as they were just constantly feeling discouraged and probably facing more gender by us than than anybody should them. successful. Male engineers gave themselves at four, not a five. The fires were arrogant, I'm the best and they closed their minds to learning, and I think I think the four were like the experts that you- and I would both admire. They didn't both about how much they knew we are constantly marvelling at much more, they had to learn, and I I would love to live in a world where every Herself rates is therefore is marking hospital, and I think we have a lot of work to do. There to remove some of those barriers that women face. Health has everyone become quite stressful. You ve exercise, meditate, balance life and work and try to be awesome at all. These days you have to make time to make time and it can be a lot of work for getting of flowers, on the other hand, is self care made easy

studies show that having fresh flowers in your home can trigger happy emotions and positively affect a dopamine and serotonin when it may seem like a small thing. Flowers really can improve your mental and emotional help. I'd ever me, even the simple act of buying flowers from my home is a small thing that improves the way. I feel it We have telling myself that I deserve more beauty in my life. and by bringing life and color into my home, it was naturally a more welcoming, energizing environment. Do yourself. David today go get flowers, they will bring. You joy, This is an initiative of that flower feeling. good quality sleep is important, but so is getting enough sleep. Sleep duration is how long you ve slept compared to your sleep goal, which should be between seventy nine hours, as recommended by sleep experts, to improve sleep duration, avoid large meals and heavy snags before sleep and to quality sleep? Gall, that's healthy and realistic for your lifestyle, another

tipped improve your sleep duration is recording how long you ve slept the sleep. the three sixty smart bad tracks, the total time you sleep and the percentage. Obviously, that is restful sleepers. You routinely use their sleep number three sixty small bed features get. Just one hundred hours, more proven quality sleep per year, getting restful sleep means fewer cravings less burn out and being less grumpy, frazzled and forgetful. One of my goals this year is to be able to get at least seventy nine hours of sleep. on my business days that's where the sleeve number three sixty small bed comes in. I can see a grove of the quality and duration of sleep that I get every day, whether you like your bed, firm or fluffy. You can US tat. Would you sleep number I mine around sixty five to seventy and my led by Q score is now eighty four. Why These proven quality sleep from sleep number, because every great day starts with the night before and now save

two six hundred dollars on select sleet number three sixty smart beds, plus special financing for a limited time. Only at sleep number stores or sleep number dot com for its last this sum. De credit approval. Minimum monthly payments required see sleep number dont come forward, slash purpose for details. Absolutely, and I'm really glad you said that we mean a small way I found, even with my own teams. We always the self assessment and then a man assessment of of the individual We found that I is rated people higher. The people I read higher and day rated themselves. Lower were always my top performers, so actually saw them is better than they saw themselves. yes- and that was such a beautiful thing where I'm like well, I think you're scores like forty five out of fifty and delight. I see myself as like a thirty eight and one leg. That's amazing! you hired yeah and then

the opposite was true, also where I saw people as like a thirty, eight or thirty five, and they saw themselves as a fifty, and I was just like okay well at least there's something wrong here and you are right about that. we could probably add a few other explanations to that puzzle. One is Angela. Duckworth has shown with great that the greatest people often rate themselves more in the four arranged than the five range, because they much higher standards for what counts is having real passion and perseverance, and they never you're like they made it, and then another factor as we had another student Bessie Man, his Alan MIT Professor and she said, How often people have impostor thoughts feel like people might find out that I'm a fraud. I'm not as good as it out as they think. I am that I don't deserve my successes and allow people see if you hadn't chronic impostor Sintram, they see those debilitating, and it can be if you're, just plagued by those doubts

but the more ordinary impostor thoughts that we all feel. Occasionally, you know she, I wonder if I'm good enough or I wouldn't have of law and I'm no longer at my peak people had those thoughts more often. Actually were motivated to perform better and they didn't get complacent, It fall victim to what's often called a fat cats syndrome, they said you know it? I might not be that good I've gotta work that much harder. I've gotta learn that much more in order to make it way. I know you talk about is the impostors interim actually has some benefits that kicking To be used- and I feel like now when we feel impostor syndrome. We often think like. I don't feel that way anymore summit out lovey talk a bit more about more the benefits of impostors deriving that could really benefit. I welcome it is because that's been a really hot topic. Odin topic for us. I know me Mr Syndrome is always showed me. My skills gap,

so so I've, never impostor syndrome as identity issue or issue of like myself, confidence or esteem. It showed me skills gap, so if I feel I dont know how to it was First, I think I sat at a table with it. Best is, or whatever it was announced like I've never invested. I don't know what this means. I get you and all of a sudden, you fully sense of impostor syndrome, and I realized it was just the skills gap every time and I love using it as a signal of asking my of is that a scale? I want to learn, and sometimes it's like? No, I don't care and somebody oh god, love to learn that sir. A bit more about the benefits of impostor syndrome, I hate you that so beautifully, and I think it a probably caused him to caviar before we go into how did tat it build on that, which is sponsor describing Beseemeth. Fines is more common for men and women when, an experienced as impostor thoughts. We ve had often the luxury of going through our lives with other people, assuming that we were competent right. So people here

speak and they harry how eloquent you are and they say you know what this guy clearly knows, what he's doing, and so it doesn't and really crushing your motivation. When you question yourself as I think it, a lot of places? Women especially offensive, been raised in a male dominated world or less voluntary anymore. Paternalistic culture are more, likely to have these ongoing fears about what am I worthy? Do people really think I can make it and they haven't had these constant, Of confidence that that maybe even where unearned in a lotta cases as its that responses rare among women than men, but we see it across the. with all genders, and I think that this in point is to say look: there is a difference between doubting yourself and doubting your skills And that's why I love how you described your skills gap right you're ever saying I think, I'm an idiot, I think I'm completely incapable, being a good entrepreneur or a great faster or a successful contact. Creator. You're just saying I dont know if I'm there yet

I think I have work to do. I have knowledge to pick up. I have expertise to gain and think what that is basically just having confidence in yourself as a learner, as opposed to as an expert or master, I love what you just said, the idea of having confidence in yourself as a learner, and you divide that when you learn how to learn things like it's almost like that feeling of like I know, that if I want Two could learn this. How do we develop the abyss? they need to learn because I, and unless, of course, is part of that, because I felt that's missing. We did. We don't believe that even if we had the time and even if we made the effort that we'd quite get there Because we never been taught how to learn, we ve never been taught how to take something. and wrong with there, Where do you sign that process,

in their growth mindset, research. There is a simple exercise that really seems to help people and its one that I've used in some my own experiments and been surprised by how effective it is when you, people to do is just reflect on a time when they started out terrible at something and then God halfway, decent or even good and you say you know what you ve been learning your whole life, whether you realize it or not. If you analyze some of your own moments of progress and improvement, you're, probably gonna pick up patterns. And so in some cases where people notice then is okay. I learned throbs observation ends it ours I had a role model that I was able to watch closely or I found the right videos on Youtube, and I was able to take this up their people say you know at those the pattern behind my moments of growth is I had a coach whose, in my car, and who saw more potential. In me, then, I saw myself. And so now. I need to find that person to to raise my aspirations and then for other people. It's the simple as saying you know it,

when I learned best when I was most motivated grow was when I had a curiosity gap really wanted to understand something and it most hurt. I wanted a scratch that it so badly and I couldn't stop me from then going in and digging deeply into that phenomenon, and I obviously there are dozens and probably hundreds and thousands of possible stories, they come out that way, but I think- collecting on your own moments of learning is probably the best way to figure out. Where are your confidence in learning should come yeah for sure because it could go back. Is I remember like if someone asked me what was the first time I felt like I was learning something I was probably ungrateful. cried the best teacher of all time I'll. Never for his name is Mr Fox, while and I'll never forget him, because it was he just made learning so fun and Probably like one at an eight nine, His old, maybe, and so in a super young and not thinking about being a learner or thinking I'd, be sitting talking to you about learning. Bed. Irony, but have really strongly- and I remember whose being with someone

who made learning so infectious and now, if I back to anything that I've learned in my life, coaching as being the number one part of it like being around someone who is ended, is contagious and infectious because they love this thing so much whatever it may be, and I think that's what it's been haven't you been around. Experts have been people who really I've been around lucky to be an hour on people who love what they did we're very compassionate with it and I think those two qualities is so beautiful because when you learn just from an experts, different from learning from an compassionate eggs were like that. Has some very special parsons, I feel it does, and at the risk of I've just rattled off a study that tells you something you already know. That pattern is is one of the clearest findings in the development of talent There's a classic study by Benjamin Benjamin Bloom, where he looked at people who are a lead in all sorts of different fields,

Malaysia. No, I mean I can you get your video efforts IKEA about God, the classic study by Benjamin blame where he looked at people who had been elite across a lot of different fields. He looked at big swimmers world class had his players. Science musicians, chest players I to know what in their upbringing was common and he found They were rarely the most talented and even even in their seats. When they were in it when they were twelve thirteen years old, but one of the distant king factors that set them apart from their peers, was they had a first teacher or a first coach who made learning fun which is exactly what you're getting at, where all the deliberate practice. All the hard work that a lot of people would say you know at its grind: it's not gonna, be pleasant, They actually learn to experience that is rewarding and that motivated them to keep going in this house. Like you had that experience too, I'm cares. What did what it Mister Fox we'll do. That may learning so funny,

I think he was one of the first people that that introduced a lotta games at school as part of the learning process. So I can't remember what we learned in great for, but the idea of everything was If I didn't know that word was then that it was, it was this opportunity where everything was everything was play, I think that was a big part of it. He was also extremely animated and charismatic any would you providing a lot of energy and what he was sharing in teaching and and I'd, say at the same time he was able to change the classroom, use one of the first each is we had that would, and this is you know, I'm talking about it. like twenty five years ago he was taking classroom, outdoors. He was in it taking the clause in the playground he's taking on the lawn, he wasn't trying keep us cooped up in this. In this, building, and so I felt like he was- Quite a visionary fer at more class in a small suburb in London, like he, was even really taking risks and try

new things. I guess he sounds a lot like this incredible. feature that I got to know was: where can think again run burger run run of of the teachers had met since, since I finish school here, way that person I most regret not getting to be in a classroom with you years taught in rural Massachusetts in it any town where today his his nurse and his fire fighter and his plumber are all his former students heads run was interested in teaching students at ethic of excellence and he's surveyed his do it yourself kind of guy he's very crafty. And he decided that he was gonna. Do exactly that, Mr Fox. What did which was he would take students out into the world to learn? and so when they were trying to learn about about gas and rate on, They actually went and did measurements in local communities when they trying to understand scientifically classification and taxonomy of animals. Here the scenes come up with their own taxonomist and

it had some people sorted animals by size, others did it by whether they had sharp teeth. Others did it by color. Or habitat, and they rise. Oh they're always interesting choices that scientists making those are always open to being rethought. My favorite round burger practice, is teaching students to recognise that rethinking and revising your work, is actually an enjoyable opportunity as opposed to a chore, and what do as he would send first craters even after draw house and instead of saying draw house, he says we're going to do for different versions of the house and they they accept that their first draft is just a work in progress. And a lot of people told him. Don't do this you're gonna you're, going students frustrated they're gonna, get discouraged very easily how many first graters want to do the same drawing four times, and he said You have no idea after they do the first draft. They can see problems in their drawings and they are so excited to, rethink them and refine them and

students who often then, after that experience, insist on doing seven or eight different drafts before they turn something in and I was just blown away by this- and I had our kids tried and are nine year old daughter and her six year old son, we're working on some art, and I said: okay, you know it, you can draw whatever you want and then we're going to try a second and a third and they just lit up. And then the next day they said I'm to do a few different drafts, and I don't want you to frame the first one. in teaching that joy of rethinking is something we should all be lucky to be part of yet because the truth most of us, get it right on after couple of goes anyway and the idea that you had to get it right. The first time is actually. What's. That's actually was created this whole issue. Is we ve been trained to believe you had to get it right, the first time, and that was the only way that you, the reward, and then you got the mark and your reminding me actually of of my arm, side. I loved art at high school and

I was always very good at graphic design and and digital and Digital Otto colleges is as to find out item. I can I'm terrible painting, but, but I had that, and my teacher would always always ask me why I did like why I put that color next to that color or why- I put this image and image and if I couldn't explained to him coherently, why did that he wouldn't want to grade that he's, so you wouldn't give me a bad grade huge delay. The grade until I could explain to him or come up with a real reason, for why was done and its fascinating that when I think about where did I develop the mindset to act intentionally it all from him saying to me. Why did you do that? Why did you do Why did you do that and the idea of having two, explain and rethink. Why did it

was the only way that he was satisfied as opposed to how it looked or how we appeared. That's very powerful and I'm wondering if, if part of what happens then is you know, he's gonna ask you if how you actually think through your choices up front the next time you and then he would still do us about, you would ask about about that. I would anyone annoys me like. I would be really frustrated, because someone else in the clause would get a good grade and you know mine would be delayed grating in whatever I'd be like we're. Mine looks better and you know you'd have all those thoughts and he was even keep challenging me, and I think that was such ass. It was Important important pieces, teaching that it did. You know that that has me for so long, but I wanted move forward in a few other topics that took the book. One of the big ones you talk about is charged conflicted. debate level conversations and these exist in the Workplace day, at home, I think about this. I think about relationships in marriage.

In families where we constantly, Argue and I think, it's one of the places where we do the least on, because we have such strong views about our family and our bringing verses upon as all other people. In our family that it so hard to go of it tell us a bit about what you learned about these of, de polarizing get charged conversation nor a debate, where you just keep arguing the same point every week, which is very common It is this I feel, like us, bidding everywhere now in the world, is just gotten more polarize. What of What are the funny or studies I came across during the research for the work was that a third of women said that their pets better listeners than their partners, and I made a now you can can really do is listen, so maybe aid

our cat has an advantage Reich. Has she got dog back, but I think We talk a lot about the put the importance of listening. I don't think that we are sleigh really build skills how to do it? Well, my favorite may an approach to listening that I came across. Is this idea called motivational interviewing. comes out of counselling psychology, and the premise is that it hard to change somebody else's minds, but more likely that you could help them find their own motivation to change their minds. and what that means is that say if you ve got an uncle, who you think has really hateful set of beliefs telling him here's what you should believe and prosecuting him for being wrong and preaching about. Why you're right where you are you say you know. I was really interested in how you landed at the set of use and I was curious about you know what the pros are of of. Having that viewpoint, if you ve ever experienced any negative consequences of that, and can you just walk me

That's because I actually don't understand your perspective that well and then you listen and what most people do when there asked to talk about the pros and cons of some stands. There is they'll. Give you a little bit above, and then your job is to hold up a mirror and help them see that they might be a little more ambivalent. Then they thought that there's more. nuance in their own views than they saw before and then I just elaborated on their two kinds of talk that you're here hit this one loud, sustained talk which is basic, bunch of reasons why they would they would stick with the status quo. Change shock is here are some rationales from might at. Why am I want to make a shift in my beliefs or my behaviors, and when you hear chain shocked. The recommendation is not to manipulate people, not to ETA influence them better you know it actually sounds, I give you ve considered revisiting this view. I was curious. Think, would be the consequences of of making a shift and what, if you wanted to do that? What might your plan look like?

and I've tried this in a bunch of conversations recently and it is shocking. How much less friction it creates and how much were openness, not only the other person brings, but, openness it creates in me because I'm not here. To give you answers. I am here to learn from you and I guess as part of the scientists are scholar mindset, inaction yeah I I completely value That, because I feel that that's what were you become a mediator in your own conversation, yet and you become an observer in your conversation. Conversation they re looking at is like this. Is my ego verses these persons eager and you talk a bit about I wanted to. Mention is because I love this look, a bit about how it's better bring up only one or two reasons. For your viewpoint in a debate raw, in providing a lot of reasons. Tell us about that, because we have to think- We have to have real off Ten reasons why this person's wrong, you are telling us limit that. Tell us a bit about the yeah.

de pile on too many studies to support this plant, which you're right, but I will say: studies, expert negotiators compared to average negotiators, shouted experts use fewer reasons on average, because afraid of deluding their argument and they know look J. If I give you nine reasons why my problem, So is fair and compelling, and you don't like it then you're, just take the least compelling reason nor the other eight, whereas I just give you my one or two strongest reasons. Your allotted likely then to take them seriously and I think the number of reasons obviously matters. There is also the question of how the reasons fit together and identity expect. At a university awhile back where we are trying to get non donors who never giving assent in their lives there are other matter, think about make it a small gift, sent them letters in the big task to, as is it better?

who appealed to the more ego, is sick or them all out more optimistic reasons forgiving. So some people are taught buck alone. Alumni say giving feels good. Others are told alumni really appreciate the opportunity to do good through giving, and we found that both reasons were equally effective. We are able to get over over six percent of alarms who had never given often in thirty forty fifty years to write a cheque which was exciting Then we said I too. These are better than one, let's put them together and the giving rate dropped in half. There is a little bit of a conflict between Hey. This is gonna, make you feel good and hey. This is gonna, do good and help a lot of people and when we gave these conflicting or a sort of mixed reasons, people were or likely to realise that a persuasive attempt was happening and they put their guard up and they said, wait a minute. You can't influence me I think that just strengthens the case to say luck. You you wanna, be careful not to delete your argument. You also make sure there's some clarity and consistency in the perspective you're bringing to the table.

I love then, and I would say that for any one is listening or watching that's a great take away, because I feel when we trying to create change, we try and give way too many reasons and way too many ideas options and actually, when, when you really leave, something's an issue and as a challenge- and you just speak about it with passion and empathy, and you focus in the other person, actually gets more clarity. I'm fine like when you're talking to someone. The reason is for them to listen is because you're making it harder for them to listen by by speaking about five. Many things when actually most, mine's can't folks are more than three things. I guess that up any more than the two or three you suggested just goes over people's heads and they don't actually understand what you're trying to say. Yeah? It's it's amazing. How many times I have to re that you cannot bully people into agreeing with you. I felt very. Their fight or they'll choose flight ends. I think if, if you, if you have to watch out for a preacher,

my my biggest challenges prosecutor mood. I think that they're, just something about my personality. My values and also my training is essential scientists that says, if somebody believe something that's inconsistent with rigorous evidence, I feel it is my responsibility to try to correct their view and I can't remember the last time that went well. yeah absolutely exit about that. That's why those those three they preach, the prosecuting. The politician is such great reminders can we feel we ve got one of those. Hudson we get rigging politely. Take it often and go back to being decide scientist and that's the one that gives so much join the long term? You learn more about your partner. You learn more about your colleagues, you you learn more about and when you more about someone you know how to approach them every time and worse when you don't let about them? You approach them in the same way, every time and get the same result there's so much truth that fact I've I've seen it recently in that I've started telling people that,

I've increasingly notice myself. This example of self persuasion right. I wrote a whole book about how we need watch out first slipping into these other mindsets and I have a habit of going into prosecutor mode when I'm exploring ideas and if many, believes one thing: The way that I really try to understand it is, I argue, the exact opposite and no that DR evil crazy. Sometimes so I started telling people occasionally and, and that have to stop say, ok, more not when I'm in a disagreement I become a prosecutor and if you're catch me doing- that please feel free to call me out and had people do it. I've also had some early readers that the book now say hey you! No doubt that lawyer thing that you wrote about you're, doing it right now, and it is a good. It is a great sorted checkers, a moment to say. Ok, I just glimpse of my reflection in the mirror. I do not like the person who staring back at me right now. That's not true. I want to be

I love that item Adam. We and every observe on purpose. As you know with us men call the final five. Would you have to answer in one word to one sentence: maximum This is your final five. You ready, I'm ready let's start with this question. I want something you wish you had rethought earlier. I decided not to study abroad and I wish I had read that that, what's a time when you re thought something will you realized. Your original thought was actually right. I the title for think again was- Example. I miss I at the time. Click for me one day think again, power of knowing what you dont now I love it that's the book. I wanna write and I gave an early drafts here my challenge at work the group of readers who who brought a lot of criticism and

them said what do you want a different tighter? What? If what if the book was called, I might be rock or unless and I really thought it a bunch and I said well, I am actually pretty excited about their cycles and I think they're really novel and compelling and every time I explained the book to people there Just something sticky about saying you know at whatever think about that you might want to think again and I realized a phrase. I use all the time in a capture, something that I stand for and I couldn't let it go. I love you, I love think again. I think it's great title Its okay, I went through the same thing with things like amongst. I had pretty much we published an imprint that I went to meet. Tell me they didn't think the book should be called think like among are used. Yes. That is one of the best book titles. I've ever seen no serious entry, and I was so in secure about it for a long time been even up until the day before we launched here, because I'd I'd heard that from life met seventeen and brings, and I had that from like fourteen to fifteen of the imprints

that I believe that we should change the title they were just like will J who wants to be a monk? What is among mean to people, and I and I struggling with alternatives, because this was only true thing that the book was trying to do and- and I felt was- was my Nick offering in the world that I'm I'm trying to pass along and she was so Hoddan, and you know I am glad that we stuck with it, but I've read what did a million times you know so it was. It was very. I was very scared up until the day we got results it and are less I was so scared or its itself. The empress you met him have hit we're not your target audience but I actually think it's an ingenious title for the exact reason that their highlighting, which is, I don't think so. people want to be monks. We all aspire to have the wisdom and also the equanimity that that you model and so the idea that I could, even if I don't have the patience or the discipline

immersed myself in a spiritual trichet tradition like that that I could learn to think more like one? That's that's right my fingertips. Radio, while you're you're my target out of Europe, is gonna, be my targeted from now now that said. I think that anybody who told you to rethink it clearly should reach Hank thereon entitling bucks. I love that were there, Thank you for the oral question number three. We ve been spending so long, and this is great, but I love it say. No, no. No, it's great question number he is. What's the worst piece of advice you ever receive First piece of advice that I ever received was.

Not to give credit to undergraduate co authors on a paper. I was writing because they were just research, assistants and everyone has them interesting that grow and thank you for sharing a what's the worst piece of advice. You have given some piece of advice: I've ever given, someone is Prob Please don't go back to school. I interesting a gay. I I should talk to buy their I've, been thinking of going back to school, so so interesting for what I did. So that's that's that's a big question which I could go into all. It does like three different areas that I am fascinated by and I think don't know enough again. I don't know enough about what I end up studying. If I end up choosing any of the three, broad terms. Neurosciences is definitely one of them and I am fascinated by my passions always being defined juxtaposition of the intersection between time,

wisdom and and modern science, and so for me, I'm always trying to find, like I love, reading studies about how meditation impacts the brain, how a lot of my old among practices of the brain and so your site. is definitely one of the big ones. I'm I'm behaviour. Economic economic box have just been my my passion. wherever and so anything around human behavior bet, but wanting to know what to study some still exploring it buddy. I share, would you prematurely bed. definitely been something I've been considering. So it's good to hear you say that that I like that, I, like that a lot This is a lawyer conversation that when you have a moment, look out for a colleague of mine, Michael Platt, his he's an economic neuroscientist and he basically he is his brain imaging to understand. Behavioral economics, which, though there Few others like him, and I wonder, if that's a synthesis of your interests, Thank you for sure. I would every pick your brain, probably when, when we please do, I look forward to that Thank you so much. I really appreciate an and fifth and final question: what

something that you don't know about yet that your fascinated to learn about, such a long list. I think when one thing that is just a tunnel, I ll give you a macro into micro and- and you can pick on the micro side, I really want to know why it is that you can't tickle yourself, that's genius! I I ever trying you right now it s right leg ever I mean they're all I've, I've. I've asked! No, I I've run. Google searches cannot get to the bottom of this one so that the next book tickle ticket something yeah, maybe the best Russia diversity right that vote, but I don want to read it The best answer I heard was: will you can't surprise yourself and if you go to tickle yourself, your brain already knows this can happen, and it took me about four seconds to debunk that, as I said, you not J, They you right now. Did you still ass. You would have fright, and so even if you know it's coming, doesnt seem to matter anyway that

One thing I would love to understand better macro. Until I tell us migratory, I love, that's a great odds. Are there it's fun vigour picture I think one of the things I'm curious about is, How we, how we can establish some common ground across very partisan, divides, example take any political leader that you think is great or terrible today them meant that you try to point out flaws in character or shortcomings in their competence, people You are being partisan We'd like to have an independent standard. Where we say look, This is what we mean by leadership scale. This is we judge values so that we can try to get on the same page. I of that, and I hope you going to create what that is, and then we start using that. I think that's such as such I'm just noble approach bet, but it's what's needed right now: the idea to look at things objectively without

sentimentality without attachment. Without you know, to be really approach something and go well, what is best for everyone and interpret conversations like that in that, in a way driven through data but but also through. Now be amazing. So I think I do It is have ask a J before we rap what one thing that I am adding to my less desire, as I do that the book terror is, love to know something. You think that I should be re thinking. Oh, ok, that's that's! That's fascinating. What do I think you should be re thing, in this is hard do know why this is hard, because I agree with you on so many things. It's well that's a mistake that you need to rethink like I've written a red or you works and, like I find them so fascinating, and I grieve you in so I think I don't know, This is interesting, and it's because I dont know this about you, so so you may this open up a whole other compensation because use

open to so many things. I would love to know how open know how much you ve allowed spiritual fourteen. Match your scientists mind into your life, because I think someone uses open as you And you, maybe you already have any idea. What done then? That's why you are who you are, but now you just just the balls I I would be fascinated because I just think that you're, I think, you're too, already so spiritually evolved and, if that's what you ve got from studying, essential psychology in and behaviour that I'm fascinated to see what you go on to achieve with with that added to it. So now without delay. My addition, thank you now that it's it's it's a gaping hole in my learning, my and admired really in my training to write witches anytime. I came across spiritual ideas I would you there look for evidence or I would say well how do you know

it's only more recently that I've I've recognised how many of the fundamental principles of psychology than of resonate with me do have these routes in very ancient religious traditions and philosophical with, and I think I have a lot to learn on that front of that you you're extremely humble, modest and and kind, and so I love

all the time we ever get to spend together item. I recommend to everyone to please go grab a copy of the book. Think again, you will not regretted. I do believe that its scale that everyone needs right now and we need desperately in our careers relationships, family, the world. You know, leaders it's such a big need, and I am so glad that you are helping us think again so Adam. Thank you. So much is there anything else. You want to share that. You, like J, have to share this Yemen Levin sheriff I'm open to that now. J. This issue has been such a thrill. I will say, since you raised politician prosecutor, preacher scientists, I put together a little questionnaire that people could take to figure out where they stand in which those modes they fall into most often so very many wants to take it. As you said, Adam granted, oh, I love that yeah. Definitely I'll. I love finding out more about myself so that that's great Adam Grant dot net if you wanna go figure out which of the prosecutor, preacher politician or scientists who are so please women who put that in their shoulders. Well, I don't thank you. So much for tuning in an end so grateful to spend this time. It is always an excited for lunch or dinner. Next time I can't wait. Thank you. So much for having major this is thrust is really fun tanks at him

Braun. Thank you so much for listening to on purpose, and I really hope you enjoy that conversation with Adam like I said at the beginning, it you're lucky day because there is a whole other conversation waiting for you. Thank you and enjoy part two Everyone will come back to you on purpose. The number one healthcare costs in the World Bank's that each and every single one of you that come to listen, lad and growing things the world to me that we have kept this incredible community round the pandemic round lockdown. We continue to learn flying to expand our minds and get the information and knowledge that can help us move forward in our lives. Not today's gas is someone that I have been a fan of for a long time is, absolute incredible Abed speak, I digitally never physically the digitally at its been an absolute joy. I am so grateful to welcome to on purpose none other than Adam brought out. Adam has been whartons top rated for vessel, the seventh street. Yes,

all that psychologist keys a leading experts on how we can find a motivation and meeting and live more generous and creative lives. All values that I absolutely love and he has been recognised as one of the world's ten most influential management, thinkers and fortunes. Forty under forty he's the old before new terms, best selling books that have sold over two million copies and translated into thirty five languages given tee. Originals option b and power moves his. What had been named among the years dashed by Amazon, Apple and the financial times, and the Wall Street Journal item is the host of work life. A chart, hoping tat original podcast, which I really love and one you old tune into his TED talks and original thinkers and give us an takers had been viewed more than twenty million times is speaking suck consulting clients into Google, the NBA Bridgewater and

AIDS Foundation and he writes on work and psychology for the New York Times. Please welcome with a very warm and loving welcome, chew on purpose item I don't blame you for doing this, don't make me yet Jane will see how this gas, but thank you for the overly generous synod introduction. I can proceed. We're going down forget I love it. I've I've been following you. You know, I think I'm gonna remembered her the first book. I think I would give us an takers given takes or even a regionally I did a bit, option b and I need to grasp how moves but, like I said I'd, I've really followed your work for quite a while and had just been deeply impressed by how you spoken about so many themes through your research I feel so tied in to my life's work and what I'm ready focused on so busy

for me- and I want to start by asking you a question- may be that you don't you are so much. I find it very interesting that you are actually a diver or you used to be a diver, and I wanted to know if it still something you do in and whether even stands for I will long retired. Let's be clear, I think it was summer before high school when playing video games all day in my mom told me, I had to get out and get some fresh air, so we went to go pool and I saw when the lifeguards on break during these amazing flips untwist, and I said have to learn how to do that? never mind. I walked like Frankenstein, I was afraid of heights and I can hardly jump at all, but a basically became as for diving and and spend the next six years kind of living in breathing. It and retired gosh, its I've retired about twenty years. Last summer I got back in the pool for the first time in that and in some ways which was a good reminder- that it's not always true- that is just like writing a bike,

I wonder what was where's, your retirement jive worth. It was the last time you ever did a proud moment. You know the funny thing. as I retired I retired between us. Since Sweden, we even have a retirement die but I did I was. I was learning a friend three and a half on three minor, which is just more flips than any person should be reflected in the water and crashed a few times and then said. Okay, I feel like I've. I've exceeded the expectations I had for myself as now, and I'm nowhere near talented enough to make the Olympics, though it's time to move on. I loved. I think, there's a bit a breakthrough in your speaking to me. I don't have that because of the video I dont, if we did try what I believe it disappear bullets if there's a delay on my site, I've just waiting so just find that

and we can do that. But I have also read that you're, a big movie guy, I'm massively movies. I wanted to ask you what's been a movie, that's in did you the most or has would you say, embodies some of your work like you. If given take was a boy a movie, what would be a movie that would represent a written was: was a movie? What would be a movie to represent it, so I've never been asked before it. Such an interesting question I think, if given take, was a movie, I would have to be either love actually or forward. That's also, my love love hearing those answers around the book. One of the things that really wanna diving with you is, you know you. You haven't re way, communicating, often tough messages or ideas. and there's a quote by Albert Einstein that definitely I trying to aspire to live towards where he said that, if you can, explain something simply you don't understand it well enough.

and that's always been of a big bedrock of how I try and think and work and the continent I try and create. But you know you ve been rank. Whartons number one, professor for seven years straight, which is insane by the way. What is it that has made your teaching star so attractive. Or what have you been to try and not get their accolade? Because I know that's not your goal, but but what is it about teaching started? You were torn or develop to learned along the way. That's helpful for cheating his guide speakers leaders, communicators. it didn't work person to answer that question. I ve never sat in my glasses so about about very with Europe, but I have I ve collected a lot of you. Back from students, especially earlier on now struggling a lot in the classroom. try to figure out yet when, when there are sessions that really work, what what's behind them and I think the things I love doing most in the classroom is bring any honest. Surprise

When I was when I was a teenager, I used to perform as immigration and there's something incredibly exciting and curiosity provoking about setting up an expectation that a trick was gonna, go one way and then boom something completely different happens and that very much would hurts me in psychology early on was that idea that I thought I thought one thing was gonna be true, and then I discovered the opposite was actually trip. A lot of the time that I spent in the classroom is is trying to challenge conventional wisdom and figure out? Ok, what does the assumptions and by students hold about how to build a fulfilling career? How to make wise decisions? How do we effectively and then turn those upside down, and I think that that immediately creates a sense of intrigue as if You know- maybe I didn't know everything I thought I needed a now. In order to be successful, absolute great odds are more more commonalities. I love, I am David Brain and Daring Brown.

I did, I think, they're genius and I was fortunate enough to see Darin Brown. This is when he was he's now on Broadway, while he was on Broadway whose testing is show the secret. I got to be one of the chest, events that he did and there's a genius added. If you follow either that bad, I love the idea of magic and teaching in surprise what I guess with that question watch one of the things that you think. See you're trying to teach through surprising that were fascinating psychology. What lesson or teaching of you come across, surprised you the most in your journey. Will you just like TAT? Was something that I had no idea was gonna be the case. You know I think one of the defining surprises of at least of my career was when I started right, Jim Intake, I've spent about a decade, studying generosity and success at work I thought I understood it pretty well, I say You spend ten years studying a problem you have. You get a handle on it,

and I remember I was I was pitching who my book proposal I went around maybe the different editors and have them react the ideas one of them. Just asked me a question that that really got me question my own assumptions, back and realized a bunch? My own data and I discovered something that I had not noticed in you- don't a full ten years so As you know, I was really interested in the dynamics of giving taking matching where drivers in the people who are always asking Hey Joe. What can I do for you? Tigers are the opposite. They want to know what what can you do for me and most of us don't wanna, be too selfish or too generous. So we end up being matters, and we- look I'll. Do something for you. If you do something for me and that the paradox I found it. My data when studying the productivity of engineers, the grades of medical students and the revenue of salespeople, was that the givers. Consistently the worst performers, because they were yet they are constantly sacrificing himself themselves for other people

and sometimes they were getting burned and taken advantage of by takers as well, and then I found the givers were also represented among the best performers, not just the worst performers, And it was such an eye opening discovery to say, hey this idea of trying to help others with no strings attached back they hold your career back or it could accelerated, and we ve got their stand hard, a blend, success and generosity yeah, I'm so glad you raised that one, because I had that question down here. I really wanted to ask you that you know think that dies such a remarkable thing, because under we hear these cliches or if they're not cliches, we hear these repeated statements were like I'd you're a girl you serve and make a difference and you'll be successful when, if you're always wants and a new found, obviously from what you just said is that actually they were the most successful but also the least successful one.

The pattern of doing it in a successful way. If there was one, what did you find to be that incite? Yes, I think, there's a there's, a short and long term distinction that really matters here right, taking is, is often effective in the short run, but in the long run and are being too transactional, it burns allow bridges inserted, destroys relationships reputations and so, if you just stretch out the time horizon long enough to givers, who struggled early on, would overtime and discover? Ok, I've done a lot of trust. I am able to connect when I do to a really great sense of purpose, that's bigger than me and that's modem, I ought to learn a lot resolving other people's problems, but even and if you look at the long term, there is still a lotta givers who failed alone. Those who succeeded in I think the big differences broke down. the choices they made around, who they helped. I went helped in how they helped so, the failed givers are basically have all the people all the time, with all the requests and now-

that's kind of a recipe for saying a guy. Like you don't know, good deed goes unpunished. Right, you get a reputation for being helpful and you know, and also pretty competent and then pretty soon, everyone wants them. It's only a minute said you, minister, your reputation of selfish behaviour. If you might be a tape I'm not gonna be generous with you, as I am, if you're dumber and I M also gonna make sure I'd like a time it might work done so that able to advance my own goals and priorities and take care. My own wellbeing not just help other people. And I'm gonna try to give in ways that I enjoyed Excel at so that when I do, help its energizing and and and in some ways make unique contribution as it opposed. Hey, distracting and exhausting, and so I did just just recognising Every time you say, no, that's an opportunity to say yes, where you can make more of a difference. That seems to be something that really helps givers.

I love them so grand diving into this topic, because, having so much of my community my audience often That question of, like I'm sorry but very vague and I'm giving my time- and you know this pessimism value, they misuse it, and I love what you said there. It's like. Actually, when you gave in a way that you enjoy you given away that empowers you and feels nourishing to you. You actually end up having more of an impact on the person. I guess we'll get trapped in and I what have you done it it is. We all get so much. We get so trapped in this feeling of guilt, and and kind of judging ourselves when we think people think we might be good people or we think people think that we're not generous people and if you like so much and we become so heavy and mental around what we think people think of us. what have you found in that regard, where how do you start to untie that not almost of getting lost interest. I wanna be perceived as generous will helpful or useful law.

You know likeable not only does anything wrong with caring about your image right next to me, and all what other people think of us, then it's pretty easy. Slip into being a taker when, when we run into trouble, is when concern for our reputation outweighs concerned for it people are trying to help. no the primary motivation for saying sin trying to support somebody, if you believe in their potential and you care about their well being in their success, Secondarily, you know it if, if you think that's gonna, strengthened relationship or they're gonna think that you know that you're kind giving person- that's ok, right that That's actually gonna, then a firm, your identity and your values, and I think what we We have to do. I found this over and over again when I ve studied people across professions, is the most sustainable giving come. A combination of self concern and other concerns I'm so we don't want to be totally selfless, not to say that I want to help anyone, because I want something back

wanna, make sure when an helping other people, I'm not a pretty my own reserves and so just to say: look it's ok to one or both do good and look good. make sure. What's what's the windshield in front of you is the doing good, and then once in a while, you can check the rearview mirror and ask if action is look horrible. Yeah. That's really! That's already refreshing way of looking at it. That's really elevating way looking at things. Sometimes we get lost in this. trying to chase this artificial mindset of I don't care where anyone thinks of me that's not very true. For ninety nine point: nine percent of us I mean I don't know anyone who doesn't come. the care of how someone proceeds them. And how they are perceived and and you're so right that it's ok to want to do good and look good, and I love that the boy you shared with us, like

making looking good over weighing doing good- and you know you don't want it to outweigh the that reputational impacts. Where were you seeing that Where are you seeing the biggest mistakes we made in I starting that journey, sometimes we feel we don't have a lot to get I'm having a lot of people feel like this for a lot of their life would like more. What do I give I've? Nothing to give. I dont have money. I don't have time. I don't have skills. I dont have confidence and showed they naturally default to being takers. How does that journey stock for somebody sitting in watching listening this ain't, like ok, Adam you're at your best selling off the J Guns, pockets like that, but I'm just struggling to get started. What do I give out white headed? they lack connection and people. you're all the time, for my students ends early on rose for starting to teach these students coming to office hours and they say look my goal, is to have the most successful career I can for the next thirty five years so that

I have enough to start giving back and that just fell backwards me because the people there I had a success who I admired the most started, giving for long before then. but something that was no ready and to your question. What what then can I give before? I succeeded, and I actually think we all have a lot to give. So drought, a few ideas that the first one is an entrepreneur. Madame Rifkin taught me that one of the most of it the things we can all do as a five minute favour, just finding a small way to add value to other people's lives, and if you break down the kinds of five minute favours the people back to do I'm wasting as one right helping other people feel seen, heard valued and appreciated, giving people equipment a feeble, on something there working on it, providing a reaction, even if you're, not an expert making introduction between two people that you think could benefit from known each other, but you know currently are not connected. I'm all really so things we can do that that matter, a lot other people but

asked us relatively little. I'm I think, that's the place that I would start person. Yeah. I think those a great gray answers- and I am glad the people of Austria that a million times before, because I it's it's fastening to me- when I was eighteen, which is the first time I interacted among I, the monk were speaking about selfless service and talking about how The goal of life was to use our skills in the service of others, that message really attracted me when I was eighteen years old and it really became a big part of why I made the decision by ETA to do- and I remember just a couple of years ago when I was giving a corporate talk- and I remember one of the executives coming up to me afterwards. Marriages like how old were you when you realise that service was the goal, and I was like one realise, probably much later on, but I understood the point aged eighteen. Although realisation will take a lifetime, but I started to practice it and

like the first time I felt the life was beyond me was when I had my first trial and he was saying I barely five thirty six years old when he had his first job and he was explaining that that door of service beyond tell me about the difference between serving your family or seven people. You know and seven people, you don't know, I've been treated by that extension and expansion and if you dont work in that space, you looking at both not your satisfaction but also impact and growth and where that comes up yet is it in my favor questions that think about an organizational psychology I was actually is as part of my own career dilemma, I wanted to have a career ragged. I can have a positive impact on other people and I had no idea what line of work with risk of illegal. You I knew? I do want to be a doctor even though that was a very high impact profession because blood, me squeamish and biology was not my strikes you and then I thought bowed okay, I had fallen in love with psychology. Maybe I should be a psychologist,

felt kind of limiting to only help one person at a time, and I wanted to try to have a broader impact and so and and gather data from over thirty thousand people across industry is increased and I look what kind of impact they felt they were having through their work. Nine people they knew was on strangers and then that means for their ultimate sense of satisfaction, meaning who is as clear pattern is I've ever seen as a social scientist. It was much more powerful from a purpose standpoint to help a few people that you know- in really significant lasting ways to touch millions of people in ways that might be much more trivial or forgettable, and I think that Sunday, A lot of us get backward, especially when were young, I just come out and say: ok, making a difference is all about the number of people that I reach as to say, no, is actually how much your work out in the lives and people that you know personally and I'm curious you have this journey, you know, starting out very, very local in your impact is about

now reaching millions and millions of people with your podcast and your videos? Absolute? Do you still experience that that person? an impact, or is it harder to see that today You know what that is such a good question and it's it's something actually, that's all I ever group of I have a small group of people that I still teach meditation to weekly and this is a group of visitors, you gotta, be black. One back in London were born and raised in animals. Have a group of people here locally and allay? We haven't been getting together because the pandemic would be doing it digitally and literally, is just like fifteen people that show up It's not that they are more important or less important than anyone. It's just a group of people who are really enthusiastic by learning meditation in a deep way allow me to share the debt to what I've learned and experienced in and I always say to them every week like. Thank you so much for giving me this opportunity, like every grateful, I'm making time that a J, but you make it up, but no you don't get it right.

this is so fulfilling because I get weak from the heart completely. openly, anything and everything that I've learned in my journey and not to say that I don't find my podcasting videos fulfilling. Of course I do. I am so grateful to have these platforms. but I agree with the point that you're making Godfather Personal satisfaction, not just the point of view. Since that you ve done that the past Satisfaction, I gain from having a deep me full exchange with a few people, deaf early out ways reading a million comments or whatever it may be, because because this is such a secure, where does just such an intimacy with that journey and seeing someone progressed from like stage one stage too to stage three there's so much joy in that so tat he had at my answered it. I wasn't as regards that question, but that's that's the first again in my mind, yet

that may be. That makes a tiny sense to me. It's it's something I was. I was first studying when I was in grad school, just doing payments to say: look if you have a job that benefits anyway It's one thing to know that, intellectually it nothing to come face to face with that person. And see that the impact that you make in their life. and some experiments where I got people in call centres where raising money for universities to meet one scholarships student who benefited from their work and afterwards that five minute face to face interaction with that one person untouched by the work they do. Object we increase their their efforts and he spent about a hundred forty two percent more. Every time on the phone and then raised seventy one percent more money- just one final five connection, and I was stunned by that and I think what it Let me thinking is a lot of us to work that matters, but we don't really get to see that the end result and its worth

reflecting every once in a while on when words are dogs didn't exist, so Now, if you were doing your work, who would be heart or who would be helpless and then those people, those people the meaning and purpose of your work and the more you know about them in the more connected you aren't you them a greater sense of purpose they experience day today. yeah absolutely and I love her real. That is like anyone and everyone right now can do that, and I know people who, during the pandemic were delivering groceries today next door neighbor because then about a young child was elderly You know what he I know: people ever teaching their friends its English while they told their friends, kids math, all you know, because or because the parents were doctors and they should have been doing and schooling at the time there were just so many beautiful exchanges and moments where people just impact in the people around them,

and I anything they assume its greatness in that, because this is accessible to everyone like no one now suddenly build a brand new oil bellies big company, or you know all the other things that we think we have to do to feel satisfied and unconnected. I guess how does it work with criticism Adam, because I think in the same way How do you understand that you you work with? You know incredibly influential people when think ass. You go through a lot of stress and pressure. What are you but the sandwich stress impression like also that an intimate pain and exchanges also outweighs the pain of naked, common sort, negative press, and all of that is easy, that and they on the spectrum the great question, I think, the jury is still out on that. What I would say wondering as you know, emotionally bad tend to be stronger than good, sir, and will take

doses of praise to equal the emotional force of one piece of criticism my general sense is dead critic. From strangers, can hurt more in a lot of ways because it comes completely onyx outside the context of a relationship that has some care into it but it can also had a lot less because you can say no, I don't care what those stranger think of me- and I think You have the same. The reverse can be true for criticism comes up close. I I do really interesting that both in work relationships and in friendships, a lot of people will say You know that closer relationship, the hot it- is for me to criticise people and to me That means the relationship is, is not as close as it could be. Because I think it is in a truly trusting relationship your intentions are so well understood by the other person that, whether you say something that might be praise or criticism we know that you're offering it to try to help him.

I beg you not for a lot of us. That means do you a comfortable having uncomfortable conversations it me you know, sort preparing a psychologist- often recommend our criticism by saying that, now to give you these comments. I have very high he's in and I'm confident you can reach them. Yeah. No, no, I, I think that's that's it that's a great way of looking at it. and I think for so many people die It is it's really tough to imagine. I started to realize it when I started to work with people Lou. You know I hear from people who perform in front of hundreds of thousands of people and when I was working with them is a coach or teaching meditation. Whatever may be in an started to realize just how much even chemically what's happening in the brain, when you are adored by millions. and then all of a sudden the next day you are, you know, demonized by hundreds of thousands of whatever it may be

and it's just like it is. It is such an extreme that most of the planet doesn't get to experience. Yet it's really hard to comprehend and understand, because for a long term, I think before I was in church with the east, was the call your, but people are its they'll get great or you know, people lets people our people, reach their beautiful home, their beautiful partners they'll get over it, that we realise that that doesn't substituted either I never see me again in your work about like your bank balance or your access to a network whatever that doesnt substitute demo, no pain that comes with any other it doesn't you known in some cases it helps a little bit because it feels like you, don't have all your eggs in one basket and you know Even if there are a few million people like me ever gear, I've got a bunch of other fans to lean back on. You don't have a lot of the hardships they may face.

I think it is a common origin. If, if you look at the data there's also, though some really interesting evidence, this is Jennifer Carson, barn. Her colleagues show but the more status you have them more hurts to lose it. You know if you're like it's like falling off a one foot Ledge Frankfurt says that thirty foot route difference there. It hurts a lot more to fall from from no serious I have than it does to the far when you hardly climbed at all, and so I think, did you know that just Distance of the drop is significant for a lot of people and then there is also the first You worked really hard to earn the status that you have, and so you come more attached to it because more part of your identity ended. Maybe hurts you a little more bitterly most. How building I've seen J on this is, and I did it- I guess I've got a couple years ago and how to love criticism an inside with with Ray Dalia, Bridgewater and a bunch of his colleagues and I've been studying them for years. All the things that I learned about how to take criticism

The best inside came from Doug Stone and she were in work. In fact mediators. and they said, look you need. Every time somebody criticizes you, you need to give yourself a second score, which is basically a score for how you took the criticism so hey you're in school, and somebody gives you d minus on a paper right. You change the democracy in its already been given? The best thing you can do is to try to a plan for how well you took the device and I think the breeze higher. get a piece of criticism, or talking to somebody who's. Trying to you know, to get a little bit less offensive to say what the criticism already out there whenever people think of you or you, Work you're, probably not like a whole lot. It's gonna change it and Are you try to change the more defensive, you're gonna look doings. why don't you just try to ease the response to the criticism?

I love that inside what a brilliant inside and and what I love about this is that that so much more about changing your own perception of yourself, rather than trying to change someone else's viewpoint that they have a view which is usually our reaction to criticism or feedback is how do I now change to be perceived differently as opposed to change? My perception of myself, which how often is what kind of whole just back from trying new things out all you know, opening all sounds of the failure of making mistakes. That's a great inside! That's that's! U J! I love that one in the rate, re was great. Yes, on the pod, Gaston minimal some black glad to hear that it set, It's is interesting to see how people are more stood using that. Why forgot the names of the two media is that you mentioned the conflict mediators. that bet it's interesting to see how

there are so many deeper insight when we think of giving feedback that one. You know those truly truly unique one thing I'm thinking about those. Let's say I want to go back to give and take for a second before we move forward. That is, listing right now. I remember saying you know, item I've been I'm gonna give up. I've been taken from and now I feel like I can never give again I feel like. I can never trust again, I'm stuck it's now ruining my current relationship of current married. Your current work situation we went. Someone in that position start. What is the healthy choice for that. I've seen this enough times that it seems to be a really common experience, and I think that the first thing I would say, says that Adela at a great observation on this front. Recently. His luck, at times when there's a pandemic or whether yields a personal struggle. We think we then have to foot the switch and that's a lot of people

Is it ok? I've been endeavour. I've gotten burn one too many times, and now I've gotta put myself first or ass. No one else will and their over correct in their their switching from one extreme of giving to the other extreme, taking and Sancho said no. We want to think about it much more like a dial. It were cod. We tuning in adjusting- which I thought was a good metaphor, and I think that's that's. What I've seen successfully do something that I have also seen in the data over and over. It is you I start by saying, ok, let me screen the people that I interact with when somebody Ask me for help. Instead, just immediately saying. Yes, let me figure out first It may seem to be somebody who is it is really worth the investment of my time, and maybe I could have the waters a little bit by offering to spend five or ten minutes. And seeing if there actually appreciate ever grateful. if they show a sense of entitlement and then maybe I'll go an extra step and I will ask them to help someone else that I'm trying to help, see the right way forward. That way, which is one of my favorite tests. Personally

other, I guess the other. He. How do J is, I would say, every giver need some matters to protect them. The beauty of matters matching being most people's default new relationships. they believe in an eye for an eye adjust world. What goes around comes around and matters are extremely tough on takers because they feel that's a violation of fairness and justice, and so on very good at protecting givers from takers, and they do it in part, because if we want to see takers get what they deserve but they also, they believe the generosity should be rewarded and so on. there, no like the karma police who make sure that I bet that fairness is maintained in the system, so find something do you really believe injustice and them and get them to be a protective shield? yeah, they deserve there's a rough rule that I remember we added the monastery in the ash from it. It was like you should always have you know if you break down your connections or your relationships will

Ninety percent should be people you're, learning from three percent should be people. Let your teaching and then Fifty percent would be people that have the same level and I was kind of like how we were recommended to construct our. I wouldn't call a network, but teaching and coordination in the autumn, we found that for so many people they were just something like eighty percent surrounded by people a day were teaching and guiding and giving too, and then I'm twenty percent at the top, and then there was no one that they had to share their with those shared aerial stories with, and then we were always recommended died. I was like that because it is very much presented, Spectre of Amity people I needed. It is kind of like what you saying that matches you need those people on your level as as and is being given to take her in some places the such an interesting breakdown to say. Locker their people. You should be learning from their people. You should be teaching. I wonder Where do you draw the line on that, because

One of the things I really admire about a lot of their stay? A lot of our mutual trends is that there are totally committed my followers and what A core philosophies is that you can learn somewhat something from me when I say that again, I think one of the core philosophy a lifeline learners that you can learn something from every person you meet and so, if I only have twenty percent of people that I'm learning from, am I missing out on the wisdom that I could be gleaned from the other eighty yeah no is growing question. I guess I guess I should clarify more what a man. What I meant is the people that naturally seen as your teachers or seniors circle, right that yes hundred percent, which we learned from everyone, you can learn from the people you teach you learn something more from you students, then your teachers budget. Recognising that you need people in your life,

you do naturally seek wisdom and guidance from I feel like we. We haven't necessarily built a strong culture upon from school, like, if you think about it, often water in the after school or where anyone who studies rarely does anyone have a mentor or coach or a guy that we don't really have that at all. Our western culture like it's, not as it doesn't have a stronghold. If I dont have you did a recent study and asked where made them other poacher, a mentor teacher. whatever you call it we know what the successful people do, whether its athletes mosquitos a lot of the majority of the population wouldn't say that I would say that to clarify that point will be that twenty percent of your life should be surrounded by guides mental approaches, his role as opposed to you being a learner, you should always be a learner in all areas of life. Is I'm excited, Yadda resonates ends. I think I think you're right We need much more mentorship than we have and I think

you know. The sad reality is that if you look at most western countries, many people dont. Even I have one friend at work, let alone a mentor I remember when one at that Why should they got a lot when giving take first came out was ok, it might be a good Manzi so that I'm not being a take her in this relationship and I would just say to people look, you know your job is immense. He is just a trader to achieve the potentially your mentor season. You great mentor, someone who sees more potential in you, then you see in your stuff and if, if you in work to try to make that vision a reality. Then you have made your mentor feel like ok. My time was, whilst that right I've, I've really invested in a meaningful way in this person as I, as I started, giving their feedback. Alot of people came back and said you know what, I'd love to be able to do this, but I don't even have a mentor shall have to be met by the back door. I think you're right. We need a much better, both cultural norm and infrastructure,

Everybody who is trying to build a career or life has access to wisdom. Yeah. No, I'm DR I'm glad to hear that reflection from you in and get that assurance, and that idea I was saying to a group of young people in London right that a mentor and sharing with them the other day that I was saying that part of a roll of fraud It is to remind you of how far you ve com and part of the role of men choice to remind you of how far you have to go. I need you need both. You need your friend saying like because I was I reminding one of them of how far they have to go and then they were ass. They were asking me a challenging regularly. Why are you doing Maleagans, making them feel uncomfortable and, unlike now, that's part of I'm in your life back? you, you guys shouldn't see that as a right for you to do the same. To like you need that in a unique, encourages urban and noticed the greatest sucks

yeah, it's nice hearing that thought. Let's talk about work for a moment you, you spoke my word there. People having friends at work is a lot of people say well in a work, is in everything and as other speakers have what we spend most of our lives at work, and- and I know you obviously, you spent by studying the workplace and an eye relationships, and I'm with you that we far too much time, they're not taken seriously. What and I worked so I'm giving give you a quick example. I turned down copper offers to become among them, and I worked an extension for three years inside. I've worked in that with space for not a significant part of my life but enough to nobody feels like an one of the biggest challenges. I saw that people not feeling like day when noticed recognized and lead and I was in a group- very talented people who I felt ever had different. You know

degrees of that emotion and feeling of like well, you I got so much to offer no known notices me I'm feeling like got right now in an organization. What's the step process, and go to end that without feeling than on that night. Spied cannot surrender. My motivated statement, have they don't have you giving the keener every Monday morning in the meeting I get yours. What? Where is that on anyone? yeah, I know is disappointing, is no matter who was we'd, all we'd all get familiar with and everything, but but I wanna make sciatic I think so many people today. We have such a higher expectation of leadership because- exposed to so many more inspirational people online through box in the world whereas before you didn't, really have done so you, like expectation on leadership, is, however, that also makes us more disappointed. Yeah, I think that's true. I think I'm angry definitely expect more from our workplaces and from our leaders. Then

in the past right, if you look it the changing in, what's often how the psychological contract, the unwritten settled stations and obligations that we exchange with our employers- You know it used to be enough to say hey, you know, I'm I'm in a show up here and I will give you Lloyd you in exchange for job security ends up with you support my family and my my lifestyle and then, over time we got more and more to await. No, I also want this to be a family. and I also want you to give me a noble cause- are a purpose to work towards an. It's it's harder and harder for leaders to fulfil those expectations. So if you're in an organisation where you don't have that or a job where you're missing that, I think the first thing do is to go and find people who are doing work that you think is worthwhile. They need any help. Often there is a side project that you can get involved in committee, a task force that could be a step in the right direction. I think a second option is is to pick up a hobby outside a work theirs.

there's been a big debate for the last few years about whether the United, the passions we have outside work detract from jobs are whether they enrich our jobs and they can do both, but it out that if you have a hobby that you really love it's unrelated to your work or in a given, sense of meaning back and spill over into your job actually energize you and then I think that the third option may put on the table is to say There are few things more powerful than volunteering with your co workers, there is good evidence and I found the essence of my own research and I've got a bunch colleagues whose tested this is well that if if you feel like you're job, doesn't make a difference in your leaders. Aren't that inspiring being part of an organisation that allows you to lend your skills or share your knowledge with other people who might not have had the privilege of benefiting from them. Concerning this. we said the law, aren't you and all the cares and I'm alive

I am in a position where I can do some good with the expertise I do have, and I think I volunteered can freely begun in groups, another mentorship initiatives for high school students or people who might not acts and access to your resources or your education level. I think I can make a huge efforts. I didn't really wise, wiser suggestions because I think the point you are making- If, if I can say that is, is that there are so many options and I think we sometimes sit the the feeling of like this is the only option I have right now and it's not working just gonna, given us three or more alternative parts, that anyone could at least explore. And having been an upsurge. I condemn any sane and back for what you're saying is this I remember that, knowing I had other parts always freed me from the pressure something not working where I was

and that's just such a printing in general. I feel, like you, should always know their options, because it just relieves you and liberated from this overwhelming stress unfortunately often put on ourselves I think so too, J and I think one mistakes. A lot of people make is they actually underestimate their own strengths zone, an exercise that I have found extremely powerful about doing it myself in an offering its leaders and students ends for anyone who hasn't tried it. It's called the reflected best self exercise, I was created by more modern Roberts agenda than their colleagues. The universe in Michigan ends with it, is this: a look. if you really want to understand your strengths, not enough just to fill out a survey and and rate what you think you're good at and what good offer. What you wanted. You see yourself through a mirror than other people hold up for you and They asked me to reach out to maybe ten and twenty people that you know well. And have them right a story about its time, and you are at your best I like, and then you collect the stories.

And your job is to create a portrait, what are the common views I found? Typically, twenty to thirty percent of those stories highlights trains for people, didn't even know they had and at such an uplifting waiting to see through the eyes of the people that you really look up to or respect and trust, I'm hanging. but there's a lot. I can contribute that I haven't really been thinking carefully about. yeah now I think that such a good exercise, yeah. I think you're doing that with He pulled that no use through different methods and means light. Maybe someone that, a charity that you volunteer and a leader there and it maybe someone at work and maybe someone that you helped on deciding it important, getting got refreshing feedback from people in and asking for a very intentionally and specifically existing someone's. We ask of feedback which is too broad without reflection, and it's almost like in the request the feedback there needs to be reflection and intentions I agree and,

I think we can give it to you I remember Josh years ago, in the middle of a very cold gray, Michigan Winter ends, I just got lonely in depressed ends, I did that I was going to make a list of people who matter most to me and I was gonna, write them a quick note about what I appreciate and most about them, and I sending a hundred of these. If the course of a week, because everyone that I wrote, I felt like, five years is the ultimate five minute famer rated them. Take that long, maybe somebody who I cared a lot about it. Look here's why I appreciate having you in my life, it was such a meaningful way to reconnect with people, but I lost touch with, and so I just kept go. Eventually we could go back. You know I actually the works properly celebrating his gratitude nets, but it just is another example of the way that we can. open ourselves after receiving feedback boat, but led by offering something. That's that's probably found for other people and that they don't hear very often

yeah. No, no, absolutely and- and I hope everyone is listening watching- gives these great examples that items giving a girl. I actually generate apprised. Xanadu hearing you like, I don't be cool, ever make sense, but we don't We do it out recommended. Have you gonna do one of those we can he's gonna, someone for that feed back this week I just tried with one person and if, if it's useful with one person, try it with someone else, but you don't let it be a theoretical idea that just stays there in the back of your head. I really want you to try and bring the I favour and listen and watching Adam I'm not listening to your your pocket. What life And I know that season three is now available and enter, and you recommend, if I'm listen but one of the episodes I picked out, which is very critical to pretty cool to anything that I'm trying to develop, as a business owner and found myself. I love, be upset. You had called reinventing the job interview,

because this is something that I think the skilled and I'm trying to develop. The most in my life right now is to be a good recruiter. and to be a good, a hierarchy of talent and also nurturer, tell him his work this is kind of like I believe, is from a professional level, one of them is top priorities in my life, and one of the things that I love you talked about, how you know the fact that obviously Walt Disney and Tom Brady another incredibly successful people were all rejected. One point in their life how do you and it's not just about the great rates like dam on the red, but how do you get good at judging someone's potential in enough? mama that has been created to leave.

Did you, people giving the right answer? All unite comes in someone's baggage which, like dating like sitting across the table, when someone, and then sitting of us again was announced in questions, they both seem like terrible ways of getting to know the worst there horrible there any luck there. some experts J who even go so far as to say that like we learn nothing in job interviews, but The signal is surrounded by so much noise that it gets drowned out, and maybe we should just not do them at all. I don't know if I go that far, but I think the maximum garbled you powerful thing you to say is: you know you're you're, always gonna, miss misjudge people's potential. If you think it can only be found on a piece of paper or you not additional resident, and so I think we need to throw out credentials. I'm I'm shocked that there is still in power, there's that require a college degree for any job right. There is none, you learn in college that you could not learn somewhere else.

You too, even just gotta you'd, feel right. You can figure most of what you want alone bear or where there are a couple upon gas right. It's not that hard and yes, of course, their jobs. Like a surgeon or a pilot. They require professional training, but I'm a basic liberal arts degree irrelevant to job performance, so I think, I think we need to get to what candidates are able to learn and willing to learn and what their willing to contribute to other people. means we should pay less attention to. You know what what's on people's resume as well. scarcely out attention to what they say and much attention to what they can do and I would say. Let us take example with a job at your hearing for, so I'm looking for a head of content sour bring someone else you can manage My content and partnerships from a very senior position, who has the ability to look at everything from video to podcast through too,

books and everything else, but from from a continent brand pointed perfect. Okay, so you can probably spent eight hours talking to you about your cabinets and Think you know something about what their values are and skills are or you could actually collector work sample from them. So she gotta do is when you put out this job hosting, ask for less than five podcast gas that you need to have that you ve never heard of and see how interesting the people are that they come up with and whether there are fit for purpose right, went any understand your value system and what Europe to bring to the world's I would ask them to critique or social media posts. and tell you whether the one thing is that you should change moving forward What one thing you ve done, occasionally, that you should be repeating or up. And then I would ask them to take a look at your book and give you a patch for the next block. You should read and you may not adopt any of their ideas, but you're good.

very quickly see how well they apply their worldview and their skills to them. That you're trying to solve. Does great, I love those I've. I've tried the second one, but I really like the first one about people trying to find people for the park ass. It had never heard of before. I think that is such a great question because it very easy to be like all you got Adam on. Why don't you have so? It's like you gotta, be similar, but can find you I've never heard of and you know it is such a great way of testing, if someone's aligned with you, I think that's a brilliant lockdown, that's living in a very curious to hear how it goes. If you try and almost feels like it could be framed, they could be Imagine that a twenty forty and find me the next stage Eddie. There are no real reverse now I love that I genuinely love does I think, they're great wants it, and I think that the last part of that is always like. How do you trust someone can execute on those ideas? I think that's always the hardest part. I find like we surrounded by the world where people have lots of good ideas it

very creative, but we struggle to find people around us all people in general. I knew I had to become one of these people live for. A lot of my life was an idea person. I don't want, went out to shift to bring my ideas into reality in its the best choice I ever made. Every day I would love to go back to begin ideas present, but I know the value in actually doing it and making it a reality. Yeah, I think J, that's a false dichotomy for a lot of people are going to say. Oh god, I've got a utopian ideas, person or an execution person. You must have a check me off. Have the capacity to be thinkers endures. I happened to your point Not all of us have developed the habits and routines that make us good at execute I would. I would then I guess the next level of the work, that is to say, ok ones. Generated? Some ideas were, let's say there come out with August gas? Have them right you an interview guide for the most interesting questions. You asked

now them go through that those the passenger used some somebody's people dog or their past work and give you a synopsis that would help you really understand I have a meaningful discussion with those people, and give them a time, went on and see whether they can step up you can even I've would go further and say, given the Triad offer you know a two week: internship and gave a little bit more involved. Stead of projects Aston and see, who able to deliver I love the intention. One. I've done that with creative talent, like video governors where I've just had come and travel with me for a week, and then had to travel me around and create content on the girl, and I found the dollars. That's forty miles either way so far of finding the right person, because it's like do, I enjoy accompanied company, enjoy mine very important, both ways. I can. I can I be around them for a lot of time, and can they be around me and ultimately candy perform on the job, and I love that internship idea right. I think this is a lot of

there's a lot in that that I need to explore a lot more of especially for different roles, Thank you, but I'm getting free consulting. This is great, but is it better to edit I bitingly through our group, as I love it now I want to say: is that it like? You know, I love your twitter account and I was gonna reach you tweet before we this final segment in the bad guys, but hitherto tweets from Adam grants today. If you don't follow mixing of bullets so atoms, and we listened too much to people who- fast and shallow and too little to people who think slow and deep being quick on their feet, may make them sound smart, but it mean their wise. I love that tree and anyone. You say this one. You don't have to agree with every idea in a book article of podcast recommended, sometimes the ideas that challenge our thinking are the ones that teaches them most. The point of learning is not affirm, believes it is to evolve believe so. I took my very treats, madam, but the reason I read that first went out is now going to get you to think on your feet quickly

it's getting better things to do, as I believe that the final five fast five which have The onset in one word to one sentence maxim. I'm ready, news item. I write. I'll get gray eyes so the first one for you is What do most people misunderstand about their potential? They think there potential is driven by fixed talent when in fact, it's driven much more by their motivation, alert, a great second question: What do you know to be absolutely true or something you're, very confident about that? Not too people disagree with you or something this Peter to your question. What would a light whereby confident about the most people think is not true Yannick. What yeah? What are you sure about that? Using people may not be people? Disagree with you, I'm I'm very confident, Nobody should be that the patent,

I like it, and maybe it let me reassure you state that I would say might be more of a liability than it asked who, unlike that, I like that we have not had done before. That is a great answer, a question number three for you. Ok, this one I love and I'm excited for if you could create a law that everyone in the world would have to follow, what would it be Do I only get one uranium everybody about than ever. I can't let you do. I decided this invisible. first thing due to a social scientists. Find a genial lamp you'll make it one wish. Instead of three yeah, you get a red woman, I don't I'll go out. I try to try to boil down to one. If I could only get people follow one law, we'd be here. this is so hard. I think I'll go. Let me out of his my best love and a broader first law. I think

I would be that you're not allowed to ask a person for something until You figured out how you can open I like guiding that greater I was imprisoned for what's them where's piece of advice you ve ever received or giving. The worst advice that I received actually was too not write a book because the huge here. Investment in energy and probably no one's gonna reed? While I am very glad that you did not listen to that, the reason why I ask that question is, I think, so many people have been told things that they had to invest in a void, and so I love hearing that because I mean you know you ve got four Newton I sell as in more on the way, so it's data for the great and the fifth and final question is: what was your biggest lesson that you learned from the last twelve months and even the last twelve months,

I actually had a really interesting experience where I launched a book Paragraphs used in an a friend, asked me what I was gonna do celebrate and I said nothing, because you know I'm a man, author and amateur, I'm a bunch of us now- and this is what we do. We release funds that right and rises in more than a sentence, but she said well, don't don't you think you should? You should celebrate an account, it's a milestone and I said yeah I probably should. Nonetheless, I took away from this. Mrs one sentence. Is that when you're having trouble appreciated your shipments or you know enjoying any of your success it. words were three or five years and say if their younger version me now, I would go to achieve, but I'm accomplished. How would I feel, that immediately brought me a sensitive appreciate. In an excitement that was missing. I love that and the I'm so glad you raise their end.

I'm so glad you resent I'm graduate entered. Thank you for going over there. The one sentence on that because I can so relates than so many ways and I've I've been thinking about the people that you know the challenges that you know. Why is it that negative emotions or negative memories have such a stronghold? In our mind? It's because when we lose will read something goes wrong. We cry for a month I want something goes good. We gonna talk about it for an hour and then that's it suits. You ve got these massive dichotomy between how much you upset over a loss or a failure, and how quickly, you you let go are or how superficially you celebrate, you may celebrate, but it may just be a night with a bunch of evil that diamond care. What were you doing in you? Don't care about them. Insults is so much in the superficiality, and I remember last year I didn't know that ideas, theatre, and I was on my way home and my wife had left early, because she

and our friends- and I was doing me in Greece and everything afterwards- and it was a great event it all went beautifully in IRAN showed up. Is amazing and I was on my way home and I was feeling like there's like I didn't plan to set up a good thing. but like it was just such anti climax himself, so like pity, and that moment after having like we're two thousand people in the audience and is showing great, and I was sitting at for that for the first time in a long time, and it s really just entertaining that feeling I just want a cigar where's times when I got home in my wife and organise a surprise celebrations as with all my best friends and it was such a light, it was I'd I'd never stop to sell this so many times I not celebrated did not, and I've gotta learn that as well, and thank you for reminding me now J. I mean it's, it's a point you made earlier that I wasn't dead, that we need it. Everyone's awhile and look at how far we have come: yeah. I know- and I didn't we struggle with that when were excited by

What we are doing and we feel like the passion, is in the work, and I feel that way. I love writing. I love meeting I don T in writing, in sharing in recording integration, but that is me considerably and anything you got it not ignore either all rioting, someone redress this. Oh, I love my works. I don't need to celebrate but they're having that's exactly right ends in August. The video a little bit about this in the context of ok. If I reply before you have got a job, but when I say I haven't, you got him sequel, that's waiting to happen. It should be called talk like a mud and what you should unpack. This is the worst thing to do somewhat by the wailing you should write this book will really, if I believe in it, I should probably go right it, but only you can write. This were J. If, if you talk like a monk, you can explain to people Heineken the sense of passion and optimism and clarity that you bring to all of your communication. I got a lot of you. That's a lot of people could benefit from

when I thank you at this as a great deal by appreciate it when when it comes out, I will pay you your royalties, that guy you're better Adam Ike, I told you four hours there are so many more questions would ask and am glad that you gonna come back on next year. I am glad that you are Fagin attending to a friend that I can talk to very often because I've got so much out of this and and you have to go because I have to go, which makes me even more cited mad at me, him for scheduling it this way, but I want to say a big thank you to hear the biggest in in a very What are of time, I feel like we just so deep and have covered so many incredible angle, and perspectives and viewpoints. And I just want to thank you for doing what you do in the world, because. you know at the adding. Sometimes it's it's hard to recognise this, so many books and leaders and ideas in the world, but but I think the ideas that you focused on a truly impact for the people's daily lives

and I think that those does make it some of the most meaningful ones, because

applying. One of these principles can change on Wednesday, so to tangible. What you do in the world an unruly grateful tat. I spent his time with you. I hope you get me impasse in one day and and I hope we get to do a lot more together, but I did feel J face her having it's it's a real privilege to be here. I know you have met many adoring bands, lots of opportunities to bring any one you you wanna Michel, said I. I really appreciate your bringing me and also just how deeply you'd engage with my work, something people do every day, and it s really stands out worse than that. That means a lot to me to thank you and let him come out would have only would have wanted to do. Just this train were dry. My best never got ever have been listening. All watching these levels should be told about give and take an original, as these are the two votes that we know that the term today, like I mentioned before, you can go unless new work life as well and follow Adam across social media. Instagram and twitter is well. I promise you you'll be liking, I'm commenting a law on his ideas. It take with added. Thank you so much for coming on, and everyone look after the next episode and make sure you share and tied me an item from the best take waste, best insights and what you gonna be practising from his lips. Thank you so much fairer, listening. Thank you Adam and emphases against it.

Hey guys, this J again just a few more quick things before you leave, we try to focus on the good every day and I want to make that easier for you, Would you like to get ashore email from me every week that gives you an extra dose of positivity we. wisdom is my newsletter where I dropped down. Whatever's on my mind that I think, may I lift your weak basically lit bits of goodness that are going to improve your well being. The short that is all about growth and sending positivity straight. Your inbox read it with a cup of tea, Would it to a friend and let these words bright your day to sign just go to jail. Chatty dont me and drop your email in the pop up. If you I will finding it just go to the very bottom of the page and who see the sign up thank you so much and I hope you enjoy my weekly wisdom newsletter,

this part caused was produced by dust light productions are executive producer from Dustlike is me, shall use if a senior producer is truly on a broadly or associate producer? Is Jacqueline Castillo, Valentino Rivera is our engineer on music? Is one blue dot sessions and special thanks to Rachel Garcia, the dust like development and operations, coordinated.

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