Today's episode has brought you by just mercy based the incredible true story of Brian Stevenson, a modern day hero who story affects all of us and inspires us to do good and better just mercy is a deeply moving and inspiring film about one man's, never ending fight for justice against all odds stirring MIKE but the Jordan Academy Award Winner, Jamie Fox, an Academy award winner, Bree Larsson. Every generation has its hero, meet hours, just mercy only and select theatres December, twenty fifth everywhere January tenth Imo, Bruin free to supersede conversations the pod cast, One of the most valuable gives you can give yourself is time taking time to be more fully present, your journey to become more inspired and connected to the The world around us starts right now,

stay low. How are you Dave you so much for having me back. Thank you for coming back well, recently. There was yet another synagogue shooting, and this was in California and rabbi. Goldstein, said something that was so moving said I had to look the murderer in the face to impart something to the rest of the world, and he said: did you hear word well, he said I, look the murderer in the face be able. To be able to impart something to the rest of the world and it's time for a change because we have lost our soul well and as I was gonna preparing and reading your book. I thought you were sickly, saying the same thing. It's time for a change. We have lost our soul. That's really worked

mountain is all about is finding yourselves the shoot, volley shootings. We ve had our about a lot of things, there's about guns and there's one a lot like that, but they're almost always about one lonely person in the room. Yes, it gets himself radicalized by himself who wants to leap from insignificant to somehow infamy by doing some horrible thing within dimension that word, so that that's become a powerful word. For me, I mean superstar Sunday. Yes, because it's important that concept that each individual has a soul and in the book I say I'm going to try to persuade you that God exists. Yes, that's not my job, but I do ask you to believe that you have some piece of view that has no size. That is of infinite dignity in value and rich people. Don't have more of this and poor people old, don't I'm more of it than young, but that our soul is slavery is wrong as some obliteration of a soul that rape is just an attack on a much a physical molecules. It's an attempt to insult a soul, insult us soul and the level where all equal at is we're not equal. In our

in our muscles, but we're all equal in the soul, and if you don't have that concept of a soul, you really do to humanize to think and actually every crime is a crime against all right? It's not just an act of violence or an active. You know try steel. It's it's a crime against the solemn near not seeing your soul and then ones. It is even somebody took a laptop for my home a few years ago. You felt that violation that they didn't see me right hand and decency is about seeing deeply into the roots of other people and all these sexual harassment cases on campus. If we would just treat each other s possessors of infinite souls, then you know how to behave in this situation. I really appreciate more than just get out like this. Is, I really appreciate that you have taken the time to assess where we are in our culture and come up with the conclusions that you have and I would say that

reading it. I went woe from the beginning. What has happened to relax it feel kind like you had your own kind of transformation, in you writing the introduction that the wages of sin arson my fault, accumulated and then crashed down upon me and twenty three. Team, which is about the time I interviewed should last time, and you on to say I was on planted, lonely humiliated, gathered. What happened I had fallen for the lies that our culture tells us. One of them is that their career successful little foment and career success has not done that for me and of it dozen for others, but it has not done that. For me, it's just made me Ambitions are always leaping ed. I gotta do something else, yeah and then, I was a really bad communicator. What was in my heart was not coming out of my mouth and I was not really focusing you're spending time on my friends. I come to value time over people, so I always want to be productive, so I was always on the moon.

So I was always on the move, and so there I was in the winter and fall of twenty thirteen, and I was my marriage ended. My kids are left for college. Now too and I was in an apartment alone, and I had weekday friends, people I could go to lunch with and talk about work, but many weekend, friends which of the real interesting and so, and I never have anybody over and question for people do have we day, friends are weakened and I had one without the other, and I didn't people over, and so, if you went into my kitchen drawers whether citizens silverware, I just had posted notes and when their children plates. I just had like stationary, because my life was all workin, where collars and as a way to avoid an emotional and spiritual problem, and so that was a period where, in I was manifested itself sort of, is a pain in the stomach. Loneliness is a pain in the ass

I'll make a kind of permanent drunkenness. I was really thinking right. Look back on that period, I was slowly said. I were songs and it was. You know it was a low point. We're all have low points. My mom died a couple years ago now the low point, but the appointed twenty thirteen was my fault so you realize that you had ignored the calling of your own soul. Actually so, publishers of often said that writers right the books that they need to read was this the case for you for a second mountain version for you for second mountain for sure. Look I like a phrase that we writers are beggars, who tell other beggars where we found bread? and then you you write that we think Kafka's sentence. A book should be an act for the frozen sea inside of you, yes, and so it should charge you up a little and I'm a writer. That's how I express myself. So I wanted to write my way to a better life and so

the way to a better life, and so what I did was I did a lot of reading and interviewing and thinking how people pull themselves that valleys and then for five years. I did that in shared here yeah and your bed. Able to pull yourself out of a valley having. In the valley and being able to show other people how to get out of the valley, and what is true is its unavoidable that we all that the human experience is about navigating the values they had a college student commentary and circulate suffering what it can teach and she said, suffer them. What should I go find some as if there were a fine, we'll get you keep living in? It will find you. You say I love this- that it's one of the inescapable truisms of life. You have to lose yourself, to find yourself give yourself a way to get everything back. Did that happen with you, I'm in the foothills second man, let's say the thing that happened to me in the valley is that I find what suffering does it carbs into you?

and it reminds you you're, not the person, you think you are, and I came across a passage from this. Therefore right, yes, carves into what he said was what you saw was the floor, the basin of your soul in Karlsruhe, that car should that foreign and it leaves these cavities below, and you see deeper into yourself than you ever thought new existed and you realize that only emotional, spiritual, Phil Food will fill those dark. Cavities say really. I gotta find a bigger larger. Like I love what you write on page thirty, eight, the second mountain and that is the normal reaction to a season of suffering- is to try to get out of it to address the symptoms. Have a few drinks play a few said records move on The right thing to do when you were in moments of suffering is to stand. Erect in the suffering. You say wait to see what it has to teach you

I understand that you are suffering is a task that have handled correctly, with the help of others will lead to enlargement, not diminishment. The vow is where we shared the also the new self can emerge. There are no short cuts, and this was not and I wanted to hear and twenty two June I just want to cure the problem and of and distract myself the best I could, but it turns out, I couldn't and the problem was avoided my social life, but also, fighting avoid in myself, and so I just haven't done the inner were so, let's just just break it down for a moment, because I thought it so interesting and when you talk about yourself in the beginning in you said that you were blue for you, were you know not to men in describing yourself. I felt some of that from you. What when we're talking that you were a little removed from life and its,

interesting to me big, because oftentimes, the more successful people become the worst that gets. So you touched on that just a little bit beginning our conversation that the more accolade you get and you you have received them all the more attention you get, the more award you get. The more people say how great you are you now or have to continually prove how great you aren't you and that's a vicious cycle a bit of a performance. That's all we people have some celebrity. Everybody believes this performance right and so we are in the seasons are suffering. First, I threw myself on my friends and that A great sin. I thought I'd be a pain to them, for that was just throwing less. But let's talk about what you mean by suffering, because I mean there's all kinds of suffering. So what do you mean when you say I would see any period where you ve lost the threat of your life and any period where you I feel that happiness often is when you have just a nest.

Relationships. You have family here. This thing you do here. You got all this warmth in your life and you can travel between them, but I had. I didn't, have that and I had my kids, so that was a source of great Watson and support and love. But you know they were off gonna college and doing a thing, and so I just felt what what am I here for? That's it. That's the Muslim in question, we all get to ask ourselves in the bottom line. Is that without unity and relationships. Eventually, people suffer when they have no resources. When the setbacks come nature. Has this great phrase he was a wider, live work and endure anyhow, if you know why you're here we and setbacks come you, you still have revision of the far right said again. He who has a why to live for can endure. Anyhow

and it. But if you don't know your, why, then, when the setbacks come there tough, and so I threw myself on my friends but then- and this is about the wilderness and performance- I had to go alone. Into the wilderness of sort of social wilderness where there was nobody need reform for and when there's nobody reform for your ego sort of crumbles cause, there's no nothing for it. To do that. Really matters. There's a saying the rabbis have it's: a story about Moses is out being a shepherd and there's a little lamb that runs away and runs like a gazelle and land don't usually when, like cells with this one did and Moses, had to chase a deep deep into the wilderness. And the rabbi say that the land was Moses himself. You just had to go into the wilderness to do the inner work before you, come back, and what do you say and second mountain? Is that any body whose hit a valley in their life? And if you live long enough you will you will lose some one or lose

Job allusion! What you thought was your identity or come across something that causes you to stumble, and put you in the valley of your own soul and that every valley leads to a wilderness. And that in order to get through the wilderness, you have to do that alone. I think what you described link that is what is so frightening to people. They don't want to be tell me is especially if you believed lived your whole life. Try

do not be alone in to get away from, just being with yourselves that, through the scary, dark monsters are down there, but I think what you find in this is why life is good yeah you find. If you go down, there's a phrase I borrow from any Dillard. You find your complex and illimitable ability to care for others. You found at the heart and soul level that you really have the capacity to be carrying towards others. If you'd only give yourself permission to be open, that's what you mean by give yourself away you're at the beginning of that process. Yes and everyone and Catherine Coxe who she said when my first order was born. I realized I loved her more than evolution require. I love that always loved that yeah, because I suggest that we have the things we do for urgent needs and all that, but there's an extra layer to being human, and that is when you, such that later than you really have the you go into yourself and then it's a highway right out and you begin to care and then eventually people lifting of the well you, SAM page to thirty nine. The second

in the name of my condition was pride. I was proud of who had become. I've earned a certain identity in conception of myself by working hard and be. Pretty good at what I did. I found it easier to work all the time than to face the emptiness. It was at the heart of my loneliness, pride and self in many forms among them is the pride of power, the illusion you can gain enough worldly power to make yourself secure. This is the pride suffered by those who seek to control others are to dominate other nations in the regular world prices. Often rewarded, but in the under play of which I was becoming slowly aware. Pride is the great tormentor and humility the great com so nice right. In fact it's so nice writing their work on these exterior, but prior to self sufficiency, the thing I can be self sufficient and that's the way to make himself invulnerable, but eventually you get to the top your first mountaineer careers, ok

together. So what is it? But how are you telling people I'm in the second Mount now, and I recognise very clearly what that first mountain was you know, climbing and you're getting accolades and you're doing more in you're doing more new more. It seems to be a natural process like how do you tell people to begin? How do you convince people to begin living? A second mountain existence for small when should explain. First, mountain versus Second Mount go ahead so that those members but a lot of us do we get out of school without going to claim this mountain? This can be a cop, a teacher, journalist and actor, and that's can that link with decline and you get to the top of it and its unsatisfying or you fail. You fall off or something happens that was are they really? Let me too soon arrived here, one of the funniest things. I thought, as I do. A lot of graduation speeches using the people come and do graduation speeches very successful people and tell other young people that it,

It's ok for success. Does a man? Are you? Ok, you should fail embraced. Failure from actually learn that its failures. Ok, if your Jackie rolling that's a lot of people, failure is not ok, I'll say a lesson nice try out of their financial and so, but so you get to the top of it and maybe get a cancerous here. Maybe I was a child, something happens there, just carves you open, and then you go through this valley experience we ve talked about, and then you realize my ultimate allegiance is nothing new to myself a fall in love with things and I'm gonna serve those things and I say to: making commitments the kind of commitment that Ruth Meda, Naomi, the Bible, we're we're dead voice. I will allow European will be my people. Were you die there? I will die and there'll be

my name comes from that actual ready. I hope, has age because its orbit Norbert goes back the other weapon. I think I did read the yes in orbit yeah, so I originally, whose name open the p that but no longer places Mary? Yes, so making that kind of a commitment to something or some one. Yes, them their ordinary categories of comments and most of us make to more than one, but sometimes only one, to a family and spouse to a vocation to philosophy and faith into a community, and so people some people just plant themselves down their community and they say, love my town and I'm served my time. I met a guy in young Centre Longo. He just stood in the town square, any at sunset, defend youngster his town. This facing some challenges, as we just said, from living freons down in that's what he gives himself away too. So that's first about and second mountain is second mountain. Is the service to one of those four things. This is the ultimate allegiance, not to self.

And so, for example, I'm wearing this pen. I, which stands for the weavers and people are weaving our society together, and these are people or on their second. So, for example, is a woman in Chicago name. I should where she was living in Angola was tough neighbourhood there and she's going without consumers dangerous as she's. She looks across and her window and sees some little girls playing with broken bottles and empty lot, and she turns to her husband and she says- we're not leaving we're not going to just another family who left that and so she googled Gub, volunteer languid, and now she runs rage, which is a big community organisation there, and so she play- there's a down an NGO wood and she serves her neighbours and her community and so that to me what the second mountain life looks like. Well, I read all those stories about people who are doing extraordinary things with sometimes very little resources, people who are giving themselves away and what

I was thinking about. Is everyone who read your book is not going to be able to start their own organisation. They're not gonna, be able to go, build a school or save kids for Europe for area and I'm thinking about just the average person whose doing the best they can but feels that void that so beautifully articulate throughout the boy. A lot of people are distributed, come a very high standard, but for example, I have a friend and Tribune shorter shoes in and he was ran into a lady who was helping. Schoolchildren leave the elementary school the afternoon and he said to her and you ve turned volunteer and she said I have no time but instead are going to pay for this, and she said now. What are you doing this and take over the hospital? I take it to the ill. He says you don't think that's volunteering she's just being a neighbour, and so any of us who we don't have time to lead this week. Self actualize, but we can invite our neighbours over dinner ground when somebody

comes at losing neighbourhood. We can have barbecue for them. They just little things that we can do and if we all did a few little things right country- and I was thinking- think there's no higher calling than being apparent than being a good one, and you can be a first mountain parent or you can be a second mountain parent if you just shift the paradigm too, to serve your kid and make your kid reflection of your own parenting skills, and I find I teach college and I find there is a significant number of my kids who are the victim of conditional love that their parents love them, but they are anxious about them and when the kid there's something that the parent thinks will lead to success, the beam of love is strong.

When the kid there's, something that aren't thinks won't lead to success, the beam of lovers withdraw and so the most important relationship their lives is at peril and they're scared and they tried to avoid they avoid risk, and it's just a punishing spirits to be the subject of conditional out where you have to earn your parents, love and frankly, there's too much conditional love in our society, We have to earn we we we humans, love each other because of who we are precise. I came to This book, I read that article in the New York Times and exert the quest for more life, and while this is a good time jargon, David again and then I've not oh. You writing this book and I thought well you're Billy calling it out? You used the word disconnection and that

They made it with me because I believe real connection is you know what I've been seeking all my life through the chosen and the work, and I agree with you that I can. We can all feel this disconnection. Theirs is something has happened to us and we are fragmented and disconnected and like, like the rabbi Goldstein said we we We ve lost our soul. We don't have time to talk about all of this, because I want people just to get the second mountain. That's why keep saying it. The second but I want to focus on that. One sentence that you included in the article hatred fragmented, in an disconnection in our society. In your opinion, is the route and why has had had it? How did we get here? But what happened to me, as happened to millions of people around the country and unusual I got disconnected and around the country. Millions of people are disconnected. If you ask people how many times you of meaningful conversation with your neighbors, only eight percent say they have many conversations that neighbours thirty five percent

of people over forty five say their chronically lonely. Georgie people say no one really knows well. The suicide rate is up thirty percent since nineteen. Ninety nine, the teenage credible even more incredible, is that this teenage suicide rate is up. Seventy percent, seven zero percent, and so all of this opiate addiction. This is all these deaths of despair. Are products of a world, that's become detached from each other and there are people alone. People are being helped. People do distrust each other. If you ask people agenda racial ago, do you trust: your neighbours, a generation or sixty percent said yes here now its thirty three percent and ninety percent of millennials, the younger you get the more distrust there is so imagine going through life thinking I've. I can only really rely on myself. So do you think we lost a court? We lost a core. What what Look where, where do we lose that I tell a cultural, strategic culture? Values really shape us, so in nineteen. Fifty is really very communal culture.

Looks like we're all in this, together with aid through the war and oppression. We're all in this together We had some very Armani. That was our motto basically and selective mantra. So if you lived in Chicago you'd in San Francisco, you set up front. In item Pulaski was that little neighbourhood that you with that was your people, but that cultural, real problems it was too stifling tolerate a lottery sexism Anti Semitism. We had to chop that up and moved to something else, and we chopped it up in the sixties ray and we became more individualistic on freedom. We myself, I just when we free we myself and we need it, and that was a good thing within right, but we ve done now had sixty. To that end, we should run out the strength. So we got a lot of individualism and freedom. We myself, but we don't have an ethos that encourages connection

where you been a one woman, should have this? Maybe and one on things that commit to connection? I really will be there for others, but then it's a skill entering into deep communication is a skill. Somebody has to teach you how to do it. I was with a woman who ass. The daughter and I never knew what to say the circumstances and she said people often wonder, should they mention Anna? of me, because I want to remind me of something mad and she said they should know that Anna is always You can't reminder as always there and if they mentioned, maybe I want to talk about it. Maybe won't, but you ve given me permission to do this. So that's like the little skills of how you communicated the deepest levels, which, frankly, you ve doing your afraid for your talking about a one woman show. I do think that I remember in the early nineties, mid nineties with Carolyn Maize Coup

but I will call the anatomy of spirit and we were talking the audience about mine by the Spirit of people said. What are you even talking about? I was trying to explain what is Spirit was and- and I was encourage, you know you have a soul right. There are like, maybe so now, not only in my time, in that way, you're writing about. In the New York Times you ve come we ve got height. I consider that a good thing that when I first started working on this with one of my publisher, said earlier we will face, and maybe I'm it will boost realising I've. I've learned that the things that seems squatters if she like spirit those are actually harden Rector s away. We are

because we are spiritual beings having aim and experiences that well put. Yes, it was not made Pierre tell you to shut down, I think was ended, but you write about this incredible spiritual experience that you had. Where did that come in the process of writing it sort of been a lifelong, very gradual, like some people have mystic like a lot road to Damascus. Light me says here: I am right baby and you have that, but I had a gradual as a friend of mine put it. Reality was more enchanted them, but the categories I had for it and so, for example, we talked about souls. I was in Penn state. Which is in New York City, which is just about the ugliest face to face the earth and the least likely you have a spiritual experience, but suddenly I'm in these tunnels, when I walk and under the subway and all these people have souls and they all vessels that are breathing in them. An enchanted in them and

Souls are suffering in them, and so we don't even think about the debts of the reality. Wind habit, everyday, but life is more enchanted and magical We then we assume it is and when I'm my journalism running, but others or you're talking others guess it doesn't wouldn't be right to think I'm just talking to a bag of genetic material, there's some meaning at that person's life has infinite meeting, and so, when you think we have a soul. Now we ve talked about this, then it's a short lived. I think we all have a shared so and that there's a creator. We live in a created universe and then that doesn't answer all the questions you have, but it's at the beginning. More of this episode after short break today,

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tat comes last. Super saw then simply fill out a questionnaire to help them assess your needs and get matched with a councillor. You'll love, that's better help dot com slashed super saw, I think people like particular- but do you know where we are right now in this political moment, blame one thing: there's one something that draws people to single demon to blame Democrats like the blame. Tramping republicans like to blame the our left, but it's really much deeper and wider than that and below the surface. I want to read this from your introduction. You say when a whole society is built around self preoccupation, its members become separated from one another divided and alienated, and that is what has happened to us. We are down in the valley, the right. We see in our politics is caused by a rock in our moral and cultural foundations. In the way

we relate to one another in the way we see ourselves as separable for one another in the individualistic, I use, then it become the water in which we swim. The first mountain culture has proved insufficient, as it always does, and so I live in politics alone in my life and it yes unpleasant. A lot of time leaders are angry. Politicians are angry. Journalists are angry, we're just not very nice to each other, but isn't it true that that our current political status, where we are is a reflection of whom we are exactly yeah exit yeah, and you know that there's no one person to blame and in the fact that you know all media runs tromp. All President trump all day, long on all the time. Everybody's complicit in the online hatred comes from all directions of. Yes, I would say I try to make this argument about that we lit, will we ve left ourselves naked and alone

circumstances we do what our evolutionary was tell us who do we revert to tribe and tribe seems like community bonding yeah, but it is based on mutual love. You and I love the same thing same tat. There was a great point you made and tribalism is based on mutual hatred. We both hate the same thing, and so it's not an abundance mentalities tribe is based is, is really founded on us against them. That's what it is my tribe against your try right, my tribes better. These are always battle, like if we are enjoying being community by mutual of we don't mind if somebody else has another mutual love that they have their communities there's plenty to go around, but tribalism the scarcity attack, and I think that's what we're in as I was reading this I said to the producers. When I finish, I said it's kind of like David Brooks is now The note of our time, trying to nineteen, tell us the flood is coming.

That is coming neighbours at their waters up to here and no one's listening, because they're trying to work the filters on their instagram oath. I hope people announcing I've been around these amazing people and for these with things that I really feel The solution is out there, the people out there in there, but is this a new should out there in pockets. I no mere. Do you write eloquently about all the weak people and participants in people during extraordinary thing, and I think that's in package. We don't hear about that on the evening news. Those motions still watch those are getting on our apple feed. However, you don't hear about those stories. I think it's crazy. Cover them. We in the media to come because they are them the main force in society. We don't covenant doesn't sell. Well, I find people like loving stories of stores of heroism story

people just which dominance of the ordinary, and so one thing so that we are lacking is when to fight segregation. We had our civil rights women decide: environmental degradation winner, environmental movement, we'll have a connection problem, but we don't really have a national community movement and so the people out there are a movement that doesn't know its movement. Yet they haven't built the institutions, a common sense of ethos. The idea that we can all do this better for you too, Other, that's really. What we're trying to do and how we gonna do that you would devote a whole chapter two hour, Instagram life. How do we do that? How do you convince the Instagram lifers that moving towards community is- is- is the ideal. I think it eventually. It burns itself out like Instagram Life is where you judge you, life base that pressure and having fun right now, and I haven't from right now with this industry and this liquid read now and after a while, it doesn't really add up to much and so good. I am all for you know, get together for branch and taking selfies with your volumes.

Is, but most people suffer what a concept that was very prominently middle ages and we don't talk about a much broader gets all around a senior to Syria and that's the loss of desire, like your heart, is not really it's in your own life. Your heart is over here, but your life, a sort of over there and a lot of people, are doing the random of of Brunson kit getting dream. Go here and doing pilates there. The crumb yoga there, but they haven't, found the thing to do, will take years, although good right. Yet the postal ok I had. I had a psychologist Tommy the other day that I was asking my wife, It was always so up and depression and the young she said a lot of my patients have a lot of different performance

those they send out into the social media world, but none of them are their real cells, and so there's like a crisis there. They have these prisoners, they ve created one for Instagram, one percent snapchat one for twitter whatever, but it's not the real self, and I really want to understand the core of this teenage depression and suicide. Of facilities and colleges overwhelmed something's going on? I confess I really something majors happening, because I could see it's it's destroying us, it's destroying us. So how do you suggest people begin plugging back into their own lives? How do we? How do we get to the second mount? First, I believe in books. I'm a book is person, so I always have a spiritual book go in. There just keeps reminding me and then you look for a social problem

captures you, and sometimes you looking for a spiritual book. This might be the one that was not just dimensions, yes and then you're. Looking for a problem. What problem grabbed me- and I was lifted in my life by a couple and Catherine David who had a home in DC and they attack in DC public schools and that could have a friend in a place to stay, so they invited that kid over and then another kid came and by the time I went to dinner there six years ago, for the first time tonight, there were thirty kids around the table like backstory. Yes, and I walk in their first day, introduce myself to a kid- and I say I'm David in these- that we know where the shake hands here. We hope here, yeah and best freshly back. Then I was not the heaviest guy in the face of the earth, but I've been hugging with them and the problem we only second phase,

and we have our family that's great and we need more families and the problem was providing a home for all of us, and so we just have dinner Thursday nights with programmes on the table. And we share, and I took my daughter, then she's a vessel That is why this place ever rovaniemi. So we only places like that. That gives you a glimpse of better wait. You would like to see people and even entire societies, move towards what you call in second in moral renewal, being from lives based on bad values, to a life based on better ones. How do that when we see every day that greed in M vision are really running. A mock emerald committing ourselves first tour to relationships, and that sounds easy, but we sometimes think life is quantitative how much yet but its quality. How thick and so some organizations

of come in there and their leaders of organisations, and they make sure we have moral mission for organization. Everybody in this organizations can know what it is I'm gonna really serve as a mentor. Serving you as the other famous servant leadership and is how you do things every day. One story at home: the book I got from local practical ways. It's about a hospital janitor name Luke! Oh yes, and look out was incredible story. I M glad you sharing that guy, so look was clearly rooms and one of the rooms, Cleaning was a kid, was in a coma that he wasn't coming out of and stared would sit there every day and one day, Luke clean the ruminants dad was out in the smoke and Please remember them. Later. The dead comes up to him and said you didn't see my son room and the first mountain responses to think. My job here is cleaning rooms

and if that's your mentality, then you say to the dead. I did clean your room, the room, but here you are getting a smoke, the second mountain, until it is to say I was not feeling rooms. My job is preventing comfort to patients and their families, and if that's your mentality, then you go back and clean at it again, the second time so we can have the comforting. Clean it, and that's what moved us, and so we were all in a lot, and I read that story David and I thought I'm sorry I would have been. I would have been first mountain. I would have been. I cleaned the room, I mean they see. I clean up. People claim the room, but.

I have had a similar story. Years ago I was in Baltic Baltimore and working for w Jazzy TV, which was at the top of the hill. They call it television ill and one of the generous Joe was walking up the hill, and I stopped to give your right, and I was asking Joe, how do you like working here and how is it for you, and he said I just love working in tee, the guy, I just love working in tv, everyday, I wouldn't be traded for anything, said Joe. The jam that's important part of a healthy organization. Everybody their organisation knows how their connected to the mission. Yes, that is nanos, doesn't always so. What do you say to your critics? I think it was a Washington Post columnists who asks you to lighten up and You see that when lightly up and what about people who say

I was saying: you're Noah people say you sound like euro our grandparents talking about the good old days when life used to be so simple and people. Morals and values. Every generation tend to believe that the next one is going to Helen a hand basket. The good old days are gone. How do you respond to that? I don't wanna, go back, we're not going to excellence interests nor should we, it was unfair. Society was really boring society. The food was terrible. When I read that I was singing yeah, I didn't get better railway year, and so we're not gonna go back full used to be so bad yeah, it's mayonnaise, I remember what I why people's houses, yes are either jewish and we always had a little flavour, yeah bodies to be really baddies. My friends houses nobody's bond could cook and everybody was doing this.

Angelo morrows. India is rising at it. That way, life is better, but so I dont want to go back to deference to authority. I want to go into a culture where we really commit to each other. We say whether it be promises in my life would have made promises to and an ethos built on, I'm gonna. Really. What do I commit to? What one vows do I make into mere commitment? Is a promise made from love and then the other May I say about a commitment is its folly and there was something and then building a structure behaviour it around it for those moments when the falters, Slav is always going to falter, and so just love their god, but they keep kosher just in case they build a lifestyle around. So am I I'm hoping just in myself and I'm hoping for others just switch lifestyle little to really take time and work on the stuff you ve been talking about these. While you call it's the second mountain, the quest for a moral life. What is a moral life when he gets a life where you,

have your ultimate allegiance is not yourself. It's something else, and the two mountains are really just metaphor for two different value systems. One is the value system that we are out of us live in, which is about self and about the meritocracy that I am what I accomplish and the second value system these, well he's weavers! I met there not driven by money, they're, not driven, celebrity they're, not driven by power in that they, they want to live in right relationship with others, and they want to feel there when some good and so another storm one of my favorite story.

The book is about a woman named Mary Gordon, whose founded something called rates of empathy and what they do is they. She takes kids, moms and kids and puts him and eighth grade classrooms and the kids. The student sit around the infant and they try to guess what the infants mind, because that's how they learn. Empathy and one of the kids was bigger than the risk has been held back run through the foster care system. They want to hold a kid and mom was nervous because you're so bail, scary. Looking she let this kid named air and hold the purvey be, and it was great with a baby NASA and then gave it back give back to the moment he s question.

My parenthood and one of the questions was, if nobody's ever loved you. Can you be a good father? That's a case of somebody that it's just that they want to do. They want to reach the valleys and pull people up and that's the joy they get. I found this so interesting. Ear, ear quote from nature who wrote about how people can identify they're calling in life. He wrote the way to discover what you were put on earth for is to go back into your past lists the time. You felt most fulfil and then see if you can draw a line through them, what have you truly loved thus far, what is ever uplifted your soul what is dominated and delighted at the same time, a symbol. These revered objects in a row before you perhaps they will reveal a law by their nature and their order?

the fundamental law of your very self. I have always said the same thing who knew I was that wise, but I've always said if you look back at your life and connect the dots, there's a pattern of the things that made you fill fulfilled, and this is the same thing you saying that line. Yes, your very selfish Parker promises listen to this entire life here. So when you did this, you did this exercise. Yes, what did you find out? I just I find how aesthetic it is that, like I read a book when I was seven call Paddington the bear, and at that moment I wonder, become a writer, There's just cause. I love the feel of it. I will quote in their from any Dillard. It was interviewed a painter. She said when you gonna, painting and oranges said. I love the smell of paint it just you it's. It's feels raided the aegis something about it. My daughter, James Hillman calls at the acorn within the oak in his book called

yet as either going to Elk, I dont know interests five. She walked into Isaac, hearing she felt at home and she is now only twenties and she lives and works ducks organization and teaches youth anarchy, and she just feels at home there and some people you just fine that thing where you feel at home and trust the aesthetic since ability of it right so beautifully other time every Sunday at the New York Times. I look for your column, first define it in some. Sometimes you there are sometimes you're not, but on page one fifteen, you right We bury the faint crackling of our inner fire underneath other safer noises

say that again, does it so beautifully written. We bury the faint crackling of our inner fire underneath other safer noises and settle for a false life. So how do we teach children and young people not to bury the fire one thing is that you do put some rules around the phones yeah, I think about your has two wheeled vehicles, which fact whether art and saw how much heart and soul communication happens. We're screen through the phone when we're texting, we usually just fastened in gradual, but heart and soul. Connection really has to be have to be down in it, and so I think I'm going to figure out rules on how to control the screens over friend he's got a real from self. Every morning before we look to the screen,

He goes outside and looks at the sky for a few minutes, just it again, and then he as a rule where he can take one hour day, one day week, one week, ear, no screens just Sabbath he's concrete sounds so that's one of the things I think we can do them will now the new funds you get. Your screen reduce my screen time between six percent a room last week. I was so excited, that's good guess. It's got those renewable inside what kinda? Yes, but I reduce my screen time. I was cause. That's what I'm trying to do yes and not to have the phone The first thing you reach four in the morning, but actually make a life commitment. If kit focus your attention for thirty seconds and that's my problem, so as I know I gotta reading two pages of logic, and that that has become a real disease in a real waiter, not stay where you need to stay over periods, and you can't control when your mind is gonna go somewhere and we get. One thing I do is that

I'm a walker, so I find long walks are just very like and then you're, not thinking of anything from most the walk, then suddenly later that's thought about my truth about my life for a true that somebody else's. As I said, I read your column and am always looking for your com. Are you always thinking about all the time our culture, What our actions in the culture and experiences are really conveying about us is that how you some people think that technology shapes history or politics. I think culture and we shape history from the ground of, and so that's why I am optimistic by the way I have here. I am very because we never understood human ingenuity when we went from the fifty so the sixties,

We just shifted our culture and we had collected from yes and a lot of that ingenuity comes on the first mountain I must say: will you I'm not against the fishermen? I just want to start both okay, so, but you gotta have the skills that you build on the fringe of the platform rate directly, but you, but we are, we solve a problem or problems. We shift over cultures work for a little while they stop working, we chop it up and those moments when we chopped up or bumpy we're in one of those moments. Now, eighteen sixty eight with such a moment, you can get hopeless because everything seems to fire pieces, but then we pivot, we figure it out and the way I think culture changes is a small group of people find a better way to live and the rest of us foul and I've. I think where there are people around us, we can see in our lives who found that better way to live, and if we follow, if we all follow them, will we create change, and I think it's also

reminder what you just said and those of us who are old enough to have lived through one thousand nine hundred and sixty eight. We thought it for you know it was a bad time. Martin Luther king was killed in April and then Robert Kennedy in the fall, and riots and dissension fragmentation. All of that was happening then, but it seems to be more can, don't now I mean I thought, even in sixty eight, there was a moral centre. There was a moral core about. This is right, and this is wrong. I think that that gotten meshed in confused. I think one of things I noticed like Robin Greenwich Village in the periods of several surrounded by hippies, there was actually joyfulness to them. Sometimes I don't find in our movements and joys and other big word both she's going to ask you about that. You SAM pays too, to a one Ultimately, joy is found not in satisfying your desires, but

in changing your desires, so you have the best desires and I thought well aren't best desires. Personal isn't that you know subjective. So what are the best desires and we talk about your best desires or the readers best as I've all of a lot of things that we all have pre similar view of what's a higher desire. So, for example, if you so friend tells you have secret and you believe it at a dinner party, you ve put your desire for popularity. Above your love, friendship and we all know the friendships, a better of popularity if you live from money, put you'll love of money above your love of honesty, and we will have an instinct honesty is a better desire, so raising your desire up to the things that really are worth desire- and even if a famous somebody has told you something and you're telling and you know you should be telling it everybody who's ever done that myself included. You know when you're telling

you shouldn't be telling it so you know the higher desire, we all succumb to temptation YAP, and I make this decision. We ve been happiness and joy and happiness is when you'd be expect the self expansive move to new goals you achieve success and Joy is when you transcend the self where a mother and daughter are just so in love with each other. They, you can't tell where one ends and one begins. When somebody's out in nature. I want somebody so lost in their work. They ve loose lost consciousness and my rule is happiness, is great. I'm offer happiness. Success and willingness to rule joy is better. If you ain't your life towards joy, you'll, you end up in the rights. How do you go from being practically? Where were you an atheist? Now? How do we go from being an atheist to coming, to which I thought this is beautiful term to come into the understanding that God is the girl and of our being swell I'd do the simplest answer was

read the simple sectors. The word by life is also just got the categories I hadn't explain life as I experienced it like you have moments of, joy moments aware magic is happening. I quote this passage and This eighty Psmith Smith passage she's dead dance here tonight, club and tried call course comes on some Guy reaches out her hand. She says the top of our heads flew away. We just danced and dance. We gave herself up to joy and that's magic, and so this is a material universe. Just that. I don't think that explains that I think we had moments key moments and our lives get a sense of transcendence, get a sense. There's something magical enchanted about the world and for me, faith isn't, like God, telling me every day. What to do? I don't hear is wasted often, but I I feel we live in a created world and that

There is some sense of purpose and meaning to our life, and human beings are amazing creatures. We penguins are very loyal to each other, but our capacity to love for each other is reference, and more than ever we should require, and it's like it's really love it's like I just

of that I love you more than ever. Lucian required. Yes on page forty, two right: this is the pivotal point, maybe of this whole book on the surface of our lives. Most of us build the hard shell is built to cover fear and insecurity and win approval and success. When you get down to the core of yourself, you find a different, more primeval country and in it a deep yearning to care and connect. You could call this deep core of yourself. The PLO Roma is a call for the flower, Roma or substrate. It is where your heart and soul reside, so so many people are disconnected from that. How do we begin that reconnection? Well, I think you get out of here. You go. You know that you go is like I'm doing. I'm doing what people,

away and leave me. I certainly have not left that bind yeah, but you use short of what is my heart, one. My wants to fuse with another, how my doing at the moment and was the sole want. My soul wants assertion good how my toilet Bergmann so just paying more attention to their down here and seem simple, but Tar like you say that in the book that that the goal is to fall through your ego and I've had it. How do you do that? Well, I think it's this process of going the valley get broken open. Let somebody reach you up and then once you're ready for their second climb, you just fine things commit to and the people I ve seen I've been around people who are joyous recent I'm only once a month, I find somebody just radiates joy. They just I mean that famous person I was with recently for this. We ve project. I was around Yoyo, MAR the charity. I like, I just radiates joy he's just because he cares about people. You know well says that my friend Gale she does, I think I'll. She is just

luminous. That's why she's had this major moment in her career. You know at sixty four is like a careers barbicane cushy, just radiates joy. And from the moment she took the job sitting on CBS. I said you were sitting in the seat of yours, all in your life right now, because you just loves it. Anyone else who chairs this with you people are really relational, are now to ask questions because they actually care about the other person they see deeply into it. I have a friend name, peat and when I was gone and the dumping of these late night phone calls- and he would ask me questions to get me advice here. We like five or six- and I would think oh here- he's gonna strike me advice for then we would ask me- There are five or six, so that's what a good listener as they s at other five or six question right beyond, really want to get and understood And who you are and sing deeply, a person. These are all skills. These are not something automatic automatically we judge on the surface yet year, there was a time about outfit.

For six years into doing the Oprah show every day I could not only see deeply. I could. I could literally feel what the other person was feeling to the point where I had learn to start protecting myself a little bit. I would go so far into the listening that I was like taken her nurse. You're doing this everyday in your you're, getting those vulnerable women of their life. Yet every yes, yes, sire, Member going into control room saying that to the executive dislike wow unlike killing everything, I'm like and she's at Yale, stop that end upset, Parnasse burn out and self care areas in this is for nurses, for teachers, for a lot of people or just interact with a lot of people had knowing when they go in and when the hang back there. Can you can't just do that right, but as I say that that's wisdom, that's where wisdom was well, that's why that show was migrate.

Teacher I learned so much everyday just listing, but other people stories. You write about your second wife and will you married and twenty eighteen? So she still like your new bride, she's aimlessly and that you, twenty three years, I am distancing age. You must have known that not everybody was going to understand your relationship and many of your weekly readers took to social media. Somebody said I'm having trouble MR morals articles with his person, life until these willing to discuss his own behaviour. He cannot speak for hours so honey. You handle that kind of criticism. Of course people gossip What actually happened that I describe it to happen. For her? It was we just exchange mammals, let my last book and then my marriage was ending and then she was just exchanging memos, I was living

in an apartment? I was going through bad period. She really had no view into my other, where you said we were work is research and author and then what happened in sorted toward the end of twenty thirteen? I was in a vulnerable place in life and she was an amazing person and I sort of helping feeling fur, and maybe she started developing feelings for me, and I knew there was this Eugene gap. We need a situation which we were in, so what did she do she cut off communications between us cause? He said this can happen and she moved and so she went away for three years and we were out of communication for all that time. So she said I'm going to do this right. It's going to happen, I'm going to do this right and so to me, that's a very hard decision to make and she did the right thing at that moment was not happy about it. I want to see what this is about you. I'm going to do the right thing and you had a leather clergy, clergyman friends, counselor counselling, her on how to behave and-

to me. This is a moment of moral rectitude for her. Frankly, this is a moment where I was not strong, but she was strong. And so I am proud of her for that. Then we went often let our lives will be used in that we never see her and then move my social left New York and have allowed a great friendships, their relationship and then life had its western turns Two years later still she went on my mind and then it happened and then, when it seemed impossible began, seem inevitable and my lover hers as can be- and I think that for me is very strong- that age gap is something that has to be faced. And the way I mean I worry about it. So much does I'll die, probably a lot before her, but the one bit of advice that was given to me on that. First, I love all our friends. I think she left my friend, so it hasn't been a problem that way but sentry relationship in the younger persons friend you don't let the older persons for group either friend for the relationship we are so if you

centre on the younger persons, then it'll be just be balanced. You write a lot about marriage when I have time to get into all of that you write of because that's one of the commitments, but one of the things had struck me, and I think this is great for people We're watching or listening make sure whoever you bury is somebody want to have conversations with cause, you're gonna be having conversations for the rest of your life. That was in nature thing. You said marriages. Fifty your conversation, you you you don't owe me one of the people are the diner, just don't talk to each other, so you gonna purity of conversation with and weaken. The times. Have we been out and seeing people who is sitting in the world and sitting at dinner and they're, not even talking to each other now they're, just on their phones, unknowns, that's good, and so, unless we we can talk for hours and hours and hours, whereas this new marriage, as this relationship brought you joy,

Yes, it's funny when I was that back in my smouldering period. I always smouldering special experience now and blissfully. Happy, I'm not only have a man I really got a project that I'm doing that. I believe in the book is something that was very meaningful from media rights was a project that are really believed in, and life is about intensity, and I have a lot of intense commitments and tense loves, and so I say, good riddance dollar, smouldering spiritual break things have rap I'd rather be forcefully me too. I appreciate what you write about the social fabric as you bring the book to an end. You talk about whenever I treat another person as if he were an object, I ripped the social fabric when I treat another prison infinite soul. I was when the social fabric never. I lie abuse, stereotype or traumatize a person, I've rip the fabric.

Whenever I see someone truly and make them feel known, I woven the fabric. Whenever I accuse some one of corruption without evidence, I have ripped the social fabric. Whenever I disagree without aligning motives, I have woven it. The social fabric is created through an infinity a small moral acts and it can be destroyed by a sin is of immoral ones, and I think that's what so many of us are feeling is that, like the social fabric is being ripped off us daily. Particularly if you watch the news we ve taken alma, none of us are perfect. We all dino stereotype we'll do things that are fair or right to other people. We don't always take the time to really deeply understand others, but it is the Good NEWS it's up to us that it's our choices that create the social fabric is people up above in politics, deuce shape that the president can really ripper social fabric, but we can all

We have the little fabric around us and create the context for us to leave the better. You think that's what's happening now is the president ripping our social fatter assure everyday here's an instinct for where our wounds are in a poke set them any rips us and so that's hard, but I still think he's not as powerful as we are as we, the collective are, and so I've heard one of the candidates talking about this certainly about, but even before policy we need to mend, I don't think you use a term fabric, but we need to men the moral core. Do you think? That's what need we need institutional change to, but in social change can happen until we have trusting bonds between us and we can work together for it, and so, if we're distrusting each other, then we can do the institutional change. We need a second mount

later we do we do if Abraham Lincoln around. He was a good one. There a lot of great leaders in our history. We need someone who is not just of treaty about Self Alta. Can I go so to solving it sure? Ok,. What was your greatest fear that you were able to overcome and what allowed you to overcome it? I wouldn't have completely overcome it, but my fear was, if I was honest about myself, wouldn't love me so I died at risk. Do you believe in God, a universal force, love spiritual consciousness, the unified feel, and if so, how does that short for you? What tells you it's there Why do you believe in God it shows up? Didn't you call it God? Yes, iconic God, and I see it as a pattern of way of living- that a celestial grandeur that in the stories that have been passed down to us, there are lessons in how to copy your life. How to live there.

And we can experience grace with our story. Celestial grander got away Where do you get away with words, Alessio grander? Ok, what was your greatest awakening? There was, but one user to experience. It was the moment when I just go here, see what happens and I wasn't able to talk like that. This conversation, without six years of being in the valley in going through the wilderness, were what did you once? Believers tomorrow and then the n recognised as such I was really so easy now. I guess I would be my marriage impossible and so with weeks cast it never seemed possible, but one had discovered years later, that we do not each other than this is. This is what it is. This is real love. What was it

greatest suffering and what wisdom did you gain from? It is, as I said it was. It was from that that loneliness period- and I know it was a it wasn't just one thing I gained, I gained a whole difference. Different viewpoint is that Your faith was most tested. I think so year or even sometimes you gotta be beaten up before your tender enough to feel, and I think I've had to beat me up a little. That's a good one, and so it may be added I try to say God you have to teach me that new day to beat me up, I can get it me get recognized as we are now refer, I'm good blessings. Now, just plus, when is the last time you were filled with awe, often in nature, around other people and pensioners weavers all the time, I was with a woman who had the term worse thing that happened. Her could happen age. She lost her husband, killer, kids and himself, and she lives a life of service and shit. She's says I'm angry lunchtime. What are we tried to do to me? Oh, that was

who left the two sons went away was an taking with Yemen and taking with mom and them, and she came back and in that regard and they were gone and but now shoe she hopes. Women have suffered violence. She she runs a free farmers issue, teachers at school and she leads a life of selfishness and people like better pretty awesome. Anybody who can overcome that the worst thing that could happen the story of her life. What is the piece of wisdom? You would like the leaders of the world too, to actually use in their decision making at there was one thing you could offer the first well, the one thing I would offer was will there were more unified and we are dissimilar, but be don't do it alone.

I think, a lot of leaders that I meet. They think I'm gonna be president or from MR alone, and so they heard themselves they isolate themselves. I often ask people in government. What's a thing you learn, they didn't know beforehand and one press. They told me they are more passiveaggressive behaviour than I thought I given added border and nothing happens, but one answer was. I used to think this job is seventy five percent personality in relationships, and I realize it's ninety five percent personnel relationships, so you have to get out of here leadership, iced bubble and really throw yourself on. Is it possible for ambition advancement, competition, new technology to exist without hurting other people, its challenge, I think competition. I think we can.

Can find a balance. Life is a balance between opposites. Politics is a competition between partial truths, and so I am not against being met. It is still one we go to my job, so I live that life but I want to have another computer then again about politics. Politics is a competition between partial truths. So it's between like achievement, inequality between security and freedom and usually in the big arguments between the individual and collective, usually you're just turn and negotiate get there. Balance one by one, and so you just turn of like the ship for sometimes in that way salient only ships have them stay that way sailing. There were just trying to get power. What advice to you have for people who are living a false life that it'll? by you in the rarely and that you sooner or later the soul will come out wherever there so hides and I ll sit right there in front of you know say: what's your justification here, what have you served? Is it good or ill?

are all cardinals moral dramas, and then we can be down to that when we're busy, but eventually you're going to get caught, and you have to have an answer that question. What have you done why I've been called? What if you served What is the question where the mystery that sits your mind that you hope to have. Answered in your lifetime. To still have one I'd, love to know, God really and we ve got is weird. I met the scientists say we live in T universe like their millions, a universes, yeah and they're all parallel with each other. In this another one where you and I are also sitting and that other one here, that's a weird idea, but God is weirder than that. Like the idea that something existed before time and

breathe life into the world and has a embodies a moral law. That's weird, and so I I would love to just get some deeper understanding some deeper contact with. Then I think you ve I've. I see people who got what they call the full disease and those people radiation that we really have some goddess just integrated into. Can you describe a moment when you experienced to grace? I am. I knew grace before a new God weirdly, which you say I felt smiled upon before. I believe there is any deity the story, one story tellers I was coming home from a tv show. I do call the Newshour on PBS and I pull into my driveway and the driveway raptor on the side of the house and the kids would like one thousand two hundred nine four and they were chasing each other across the yard running after this ball. They were tumbling, for each other, and they were laughing and giggling

and for some reason my law, not rape, hadn't, have an open, and I sat in a car with one's religious or this picture of family happiness and as I say it, it was one of those moments where the reality spilled outside its boundaries. I just felt gratitude for happiness that I couldn't possibly deserve or live up to and that that's what graces and insight while there was a moment of great yeah yeah I was- their car with you when you watching, whenever the way you described in the body, what were you utterly convinced was, at one time in your life that you now believe or no to not be true, but this I gotta get a little political. I used to be a socialist and then a framework, a conservative and now I'm neither and so on, political views have evolved much more than anything else. And we should be obey evolved because what you stay open you painted, Jane. You listen you what do well, I think, because most people political

you do not evolve, they are stuck and it might be, he go, but I think circumstances changes so in the eighty is waiting stagnant economy and I really do not like Soviet Union. I felt there was an evil empire really, and so I was for the free market, but now I see that free market and its increasingly not working for a lot of people and so I ve lost some of my free market views and I met much more for using government to give people a leg up, and so there's that's been a big shift, but mostly in my life is some. It's like deepening its like somebody named something for you. Oh, that's why I believe, but you didn't know, you bleed until somebody else named it for you, and sometimes life is like China

Dresses are suits them all the time on addresses train on a suit to. Finally, this one is the one that fits. What do you think is the deepest our greatest challenge of our time, maybe get a social rehabilitation, social isolation and we're just coming apart as a society and for college kids. That's the one they're gonna have to grapple with how to take up the beautifully diverse society and make it a coherent society where we really know each other. We listen to each other. We trust each other. That's that's a lifetime challenge for young generation. We started this conversation with that. From rabbi golfing, we have lost our sole. Do you think we ve lost our so or are we trying to? Are we in the midst of gaining ourselves? Well, you have to go through the valley and what the rabbi said was. He pointed out the truth, and we, I think we all understand that truth. When we all understand the truth, we can change your behaviour to reflect the truth, and so I think we ve had a rough few years, and a lot of people are lying dead from mass shooting

and other things, and but people feel and adjust. Can we have a lot of things around us? Tell us yes and how many will have to be killed before we do something, but I do know that is yeah. That's though, though, that we're question of every year, yes, So, besides your work or your family and children, what do you believe is your your David Brooks? What is your choice, offering to the world there will. I hope I sometimes hear conversation is over politicized and under moralized. We don't talk about things like we ve been talking about for the last hour, and then we talk too much about the poles, and so I tried to be another voice, as you are in the public. Conversation took him at the things that really matter. How do you do forgiveness? How do you go through life? The feeling,

I so I'd that's one of my purposes. I hoped I love my family and lay the people around me and then I hope to create help create a movement for these weavers who were, who I think other forces really going to shape, society, I will touch on this earlier. We are talking about the quest for a moral life was, which is the subtitle to second mountain. But how would you describe a well live life, whether Signs of a life well lived too. Well. I think it is that someone is planted. Somebody's planted themselves down in a place in a vocation calling with their friends in their family and their dependent,

so I am become suspicious of an independent life. We say we want to be free. I was free freedom stakes, you, don't we free you and political freedom, that's good economic freedom, ok, social freedom, where you just free flown and on tat keeping your options open. That's not a good life in my view, so that the good life is the one. Where you look at that person- and you say I know what their commitments are. It radiated from them. I love this organisation? They love teaching way love this family. They are in this neighborhood in their making this neighborhood, where, while a good life is one that has meaning and value and purpose for something beyond yourself. It's not just the neck. Paris, shoes and the next pocket book and the next square footage or the necks of all those things made? A fine, and I say in the book, everyone tells you deliver. It was larger than self, but nobody tells you how yes, in so doing the exact details. Work of how is is that

how do you begin to do that? Six, so you just already established, God is weird. So if you had one question to ask all weird guide, what would it be? What happens after this? That's curiously yeah you gonna find out the other guy's gonna say: God is the It was coming answers my pleasure. I think it's a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you for the second Mountain Yankee Stadium for everything you ve done to actually be the foundation for, while thank you. Thank you. I'm over Winfrey and you ve been distinct, supersede conversations the pod cast. You can follow super soul on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook if you haven't yet go to apple pod case and subscribe rate and review of this planet.

Join me next week for another supersede conversation. Thank you for listening.