Buddhist nun, author and a pioneer of the mindfulness movement, Pema Chödrön discusses her new book, Welcoming the Unwelcome. Pema reminds us how to connect to our basic goodness. She shares the first thing we should do when things show up for us that are uncomfortable, stressful or hopeless. Pema also addresses the recent sexual abuse allegations that rocked the Buddhist community.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Super solar Oprah is going on tour. Are you ready to become the best version of you and twenty twenty come spend the day with Oprah for her twenty twenty vision, your life in focus, tour in a city near you, joined by surprise guy. Oprah will share details about her wellness journey and help. You write the next chapter of your own tickets are on sale, now, go to w w dot com, Slash Oprah for more information. Imo Bruin Free, welcome to supersede conversations the podcast. I believe that one of the most valuable gives you can give yourself is time taking time to be more fully present your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper The round us starts right now for over thirty five years, she's inspired millions around the world with her teachings Unlove kindly
and compassion prolific, author Buddhist none? and a pioneer of the mindfulness movement permits children. We first twenty four when we Scott, her best selling spiritual guide when things fall apart, hearted vice for difficult times now? her first book in seven years, call welcoming the unwelcome whole hearted living broken hearted whirl, invite me, here's to embrace suffering, to string And resilience Prima believe, if that beneath anger, confusion and fear is a basic goodness connects us all, plus pimp dresses. The recent sexual abuse allegations lodged again the Buddhist community, so I'm happy to welcome you Emma children, too
super cell Sunday in my garden in my flower garden, yeah, she's beautiful, and it's wonderful that do you know the last time we spoke about your book. I think was like five years ago when things fall apart, and I had the pleasure of having dinner with you last night and you were sharing how remarkable. It is still that all with a world you get messages from people who have seen or read that that book and how it has moved them. How does that make you feel in terms of your dharmu, our work here on earth while in may I thank God, I guess that's simple as Hyaena, because honestly sometimes people talk to me about their there see and what they want their legacy to bay. And things like that, I realize I don't really think that way. What I care is about
individual lives and that what I say my impact their lives in such positive way, no particular cause, there's, there's so much suffering and if it actually has alleviated someone suffering to a certain degree basque. Gets me really deep satisfaction said you know what is an interesting one of my most powerful teachers was my Angelou and one of the things that she said to me. When I come back from opening my school and I said Maya, my school is gonna be my greatest legacy and she said you have no idea. What you're legacy will be because relates to see is every life. You touch it's not about institutions or your name on something. It's every life you touch. So the same is true for every person who has read when things fall apart, every person-
has been moved by something that you had to offer. That will be the right, you're legacy thrash. So now you ve written when I first saw the title welcoming the unwelcome, I went a little Last night was, I don't, were that's exactly what I felt, whereas that is that a good title, because I don't want to welcome so you begin chapter one chapter. One is title begin with a broken heart now I have to tell you that is what most of us are trying to is a broken heart. Why do you say start with a broken heart well and has to do with contacting that part and the human life where that's wonderful and tender and
that shared by other people like empathetic sense of other people, VON bungled, villainy and tenderness, and some somehow, if you get in touch with that there, the real suffering there is in the world. That's what I kind of mean by a broken heart or tender heart you go and genuine heart. If you get in touch with that it, it's like a link with humanity, you know, and that's the healing part they interconnectedness was other people based on having stood in their shoes or they stood in your shoes or how everyone expressive. So the book talks about how we can strengthen our resilience and stay connected with each other. When we really want to withdraw- and I know there was a point where you had some of your students- tell you about what happens when they are in confusion- dish
press, any form of suffering, and what did you learn from that? Namely the attitude is that this is a whole part of ball. Helen, the vulnerable part and tender part, the part that Hurts- and it's very linked with the court. That knows how to love and feel compassion, they're all kind of mixed in does and it makes all the sense and sell you know how to love, unless you also know how to hurt that try. So one thing show up for us that are uncomfortable that cause us to suffer and by suffer meaning. We wish we weren't in this predicament, yeah or cause stress, anxiety, confusion, a sense of hopelessness. Where do I go? What's the first thing we should do now and what your failing? That is what you mean.
Welcoming the memo. First is just acknowledging and yellow welcome. They might be loaded. Knowledge is like. What's your knowledge is that everything is shutting down yes and then you're mine is racing a hundred miles an hour saying. It's therefore, with its therefore or I'm a horrible person or something like tat first thing is to get good, is quickly as you can to acceptance yeah to recognise, and then it's almost like, if you were doing in steps, although it kind of comes together, recognise and then welcome, embrace, except your turning and in that direction. You know, I think the next thing is there as various things it could. You can do at that point. For instance, go.
Your body and just located in your body, and I talk a lot about contraction and then learning how to open that our letter expand, because, if you're afraid angry any of those uncomfortable feeling. If you go to your body, you feel it as tightness. You know it's just that's how it feels. So I guess it's like making friends with that. Tightness are being kind to that tightened. You actually talk about breathing it in and then exhaling out dancing around this Yasser practice. Traditional up put his practice of Thailand is that when someone else's suffering, you're willing to take and so that they don't have to have it that's kind of at most advanced, but I've taken that worked a lot with it with the idea that when the pain is their say, you acknowledge and then the way
that you could welcome or something is to breathe it ain't like open to it. So if you like, the exact opposite of what you wanted to do has ocean, why you would never do what you want to do is reject that thing, absent causing you so Henderson instead there's something in there that says. Ah you know, maybe I could do something different. Maybe I could move towards it. So, welcoming the unwelcome you write about the Buddhist principle of basic goodness, the idea that human beings are fundamentally good and loving, and we naturally want to be there for others honour on page eight, you right not understanding the basic goodness of our true nature, as at the root of all of our suffering, it lies beneath
everything we do to harm ourselves and others herself. When you read that, let when you hear what I hear is that no matter what the world looks like on the exterior right and we are fed a daily dose of negative because that's what the news is and you are surrounded by influences that tell you all the time that things are going wrong and what it says to me is to remember that all of that is just a facade that just a cover for what's really inside Azra yeah. So that is really what I'm getting at home. And you ask me a question. Actually last night about appeared, trying to communicate what's most important thing to try to communicate thinking about it afterwards, I thought
absolutely the most basic saying is that people feel so bad about themselves and if there is any way to communicate in a way that they can taken in and here it that actually their complete, just as they are and if there is nothing wrong with them and there's temporary obstacles are temporary of a things in the way, but that's like clouds, don't think they passed and the fundamental state is always open and fresh and unbiased, and it's always there, but so another words those. What we call our faults are failing, sir staff are temporary and removable, and even those, how do you work with those not by getting richer but by coming to know them really well, there's
the exercise that you say when you look at other people, and you say that I think it is it that, like me, just like me, yeah I've taken into that could be me. You know we ve all used the phrase there, but for the grace of God tat. But I love his idea of when you see something going on with another person in even if you're, just stuck in traffic and you're getting upset with them. You do they just like me exercised higher that I like well. It is really for you can do at any time like, for instance, sitting in waiting. You know for anything you can just look around at people in and whether they seem stressed are happier whenever Can just like me- and we are alike just like me- that purse
really wants to be loved. That person doesn't want to suffer that person doesn't want physical pain than person doesn't when hatred coming towards. Just like that person, just like me just like me, and but so it's very, very useful, if, like here in these irritating situations like a traffic jam, it so dear boards parted so frustrated the I now so sit there, and you have you just start instead of fuming, which gets you nowhere accept What do you mean? You are feeling you start looking at the people now their cars or of other people sitting in the airport? Nothing just like me. These people had some place to go and there being delayed, and just like me, they're, fretting about it and just like me in there, just human beings
want to be where there are trying again to an end, and just like me, it would really be helpful if there was some other way they can deal with it. You know that so so, here some advice, you know the advice would be just start, seeing the humanity of all people the car, as I would have to say that one of the themes of the great lessons of having a talk, show every day for twenty five years and interviewing over thirty seven thousand people, one on one. I got that just like me thing I understood by militant, is human that this is human common denominator of our experience and just like be everybody wants to be heard and just like me, everybody wants You know that they matter ass. You know, I often say to people who are having trouble with their parents and am in often their parents like mortgage, and but you know the daylight
Are they gonna go home in their joining it, and I said well, I got advice once enter into their lives instead of struggling against and being resentful. That they are not interested in your life just for that keep the visit short for a couple of days there, just sit and enter into their life do whatever they are doing like watching television all day long. We should rather be out playing tennis or some, and the other thing is asked them about their childhood. Yes, asked them about their life, and I said really it's worth taking a tape recorder because For you start hearing about your mother, a father's childhood as I do that mother toward the end. I actually when my mother, where we now that my mother was dying and wouldn't be on earth much longer and was making or transition. I went back to Milwaukee and I sat in the room. She was
this little room. What where she watches television, where the temperature Wisley eighty seven degrees and she's watching the bold and the beautiful only under the restless all day, long and watching the danger- and I just sat in the room, just sat, and sometimes it's enough just to be there ass her eye, and I had an interesting sperience wash with my mother because chance she retired ten, my father retired, to Mexico, but then he died. Six years before she left Mexico, and so I would go down there. You know I'd be just dying to get out and work in the market in a really she. Today in a room, all the shades drawn and again just watching television like she wasn't in Mexico, you know could have been, and so my my feeling was so I got this advice just enter her work, so I went in and ass you say was so high
and there it was so Darya some sitting there, and basically I am just so restless and just almost have to tie my self down to just kind of be present, because I want to get out and after while I turning to relax and after a while, it got kind of interesting, actually everyone's. While the door was open and someone would come in and be like a little vignette, life someone interact with her or bring or something or something and I'd see her reaction that per its reaction and they leave and we'd be backed in this sort of status quo of boredom button. But after a while and became like being enough theatre shall something else being on stage, and I almost like a fair peace. I dont know what to say except it changed from being dreadful and something I wanted to avoid two something I've got into the driver you, you became present enough to actually
transcend my yes, I absolutely resistance. So a buddhist principle we hear about is enlightenment, and I think that in the light of men I remember when I was doing the Oprah show. That was a part of the mission statement that we we're doing a show to inform to enlighten as well. Is entertain. A lot of people get intimidated by the word and lightness variant, timid him. He asked as it sounds like it sounds like unattainable. Unattainable, do you think you have attained, it I admit I would not say I would not say you, wouldn't you say helping us welcome the unwelcome you helping us get through an things. Aren't I've moved a long way in my life away from Ray reactive and stock and polarized and and feeling that I'm separate from other people, but I dont believe the term is to grant if, if you
say. Ah, have you in your lifetime? Are you able to be more present with here? own body? And why and with other people situations I'd, say absolutely I'd say absolutely. But I feel I am just started adventure and in our view, if level, but just been failing that way, but I've felt that way, but don't you think that the ultimate enlightenment, because one of the things I remember when my life changed immensely when I recognise first of all that the what I had referred to as God, my whole life, you know was not up in the sky and taken names in watching me like Santa Claus, analysed and checking advice, and I remember that that's that sense of being opened up when I recognise that God was in all that the force of life by whatever name you call it,
in all and that we are all connected at and that felt kind of enlightened into me Well, yeah, there's a where it is there's more light anymore, I think I mention is somewhere in the above, but in Vienna, Buddhism being full of categories and stuff like that. Yes, they say when you have your first enlightenment experience, it's called its has. This. Would us name first bully so then, that's just beginning where there are levels in love, levels are miles and actually people s why did you become a nun I while definitely I never would have chosen, is like being a non a lot of very negative associations, but I saw it as devoting my whole life to going deeper for what has been your greatest awakening so far. Would you say why, any number of times when.
I would say time stood still where I just had that profound sense of timeless Ah, I now use the word now. This meaning fully present is not just its not just mindfulness light, Noticing the colours of the flowers or something, although that's part of it, it's more it's also. Quite importantly, a feeling of of this moment of time is infinite, its infinite, so that that that's an experience and ongoing, sparing I've had the other ongoing expert, that I have is a feeling of. I am never know how to express this, but like that things are neutral and away,
like all the things we see and hear, and everything are neutral in the sense that some one person here said and they say it's bad and the other person, here's the same thing, and so that's good, that's what I mean by neutral is sort of like it has its influence, depending on whatever your background company. It's your interpretation. That's right! Buddy, it's neutral magic, so that was initially very profound experience, because that allows you to hear both sides actually makes it painfully. You can't not hear about sides, and the other thing is that we, you gotta, be enlightened to do when I first I'm here to prove your and like you, I fail But when I first had that incite, I just broke down and cried and cried and cried, and the reason was because I sought everyone is causing them
I was in others so much suffering just because they no longer stand. They just don't understand that so racism, sexism and all these things that caused so much pain and suffering all comes from thinking that something that is just neutral is bad or threatening, or something like that. So we're talking about one of the great awakenings or life lessons did you learn about karma? Did you already know about karma love? What you write on
h, thirteen, you say every word we speak in every action we perform affects our future say that again for the world, every word we speak and every action we perform affects our future. But where do words and actions come from? They all start from our mind and when we indulge in resentment or obsession or self righteous thinking, we create several problems for ourselves. First, we suffered the immediate pain of those thought and emotions. Then we often act out in ways cause ourselves and others harm. Finally, we reinforce a habit that we would be better off without. So I really have me
in Liberia enter on paper in pretty good. Well Deepely, that's true I know I know I know it's true. They is actually the third law of motion in physics. I call it is for every action there are equal in opposite REACT Emmy. It is like physically scientific ya. Every year I take a period of time, usually about a hundred days or so, where I go into solitarily trade alone, and I just want let a table. How long are you alone, how long about a hundred days dread TAT S three months in a half freely have wanted. It's not like. I never see anybody, but I pretty much him alone and not talking to my friend I love people are basically I love it solitude. I love it so
I had this inside, I was sitting there and I got no letter or I was worried about. What are the grandchildren are something? It's not started, this little obsession agenda and and one of the things I become very ah aware of what my mind is what the story Linus that's going to. Let you know So I was aware that I was doing that, and that is that it was you packed in me. I was kind of tents and up and up- and I thought even incomplete solitude, what you're doing is affecting the world now I don't know if you would agree with that, but it struck me that
the via the ripples go out the ripples go out. You know we know so much about that that, where an interconnected at such a vast level, because what we are saying and doing it stopped them, ripples go out. So I realized, even without talking on being with another person, I still happens you're going out yes, so so it matters. You know it really matters. How we, how we, with how we respect ourselves our kind to ourselves and how we acknowledge how we really acknowledge that were causing ourselves suffering by all this obsessing and girl. We can't predictor control what will come up next or how we will feel about it. We can do something about how we act. We can work on how we relate to whatever comes up. Ass, exact way can relate to whatever comes up and that's where meditation comes in
because you become so much more aware of what you're thinking you become so much more aware that Europe that your escalating you know it's like some kind of awareness begins to. Don't mostly what happens, I would say for myself and working with a lot of other people. Is what you have become aware of his house. Where you're stuck will become aware that year that you're obsessing say or that you're working yourself into a rage talking about your sister Lars too, yourself will see that you're doing that, acknowledge that you're doing that and then turned towards the feelings themselves forget about the sister in law and the whole thing just turned towards yourself and get in touch with that now people do ask me well there's some situations where, and this would be like that, the boy
in central park. The five boys who now where the situations are so horrendous, does this apply to something like that and I'm thinking and applies, because you become so much more able to the effective agent for change you because you're, not blinding yourselves one zero yourself. What your emotional reactivity, you really understanding and your fully embodying whenever it is you're feeling without making a bad, but with some kind of kind attitude about you, you're, just a human being, but on the other hand, you're not continuing with the rand, whether its verbal or in your
I am so somehow in that process you are more just open and available to the people in front of you and you don't see them as adversaries are enemies. You know even the people that do these terrible things to people you wish you could find a way to communicate to their humans. Yes, an end to war. You're not the more you can communicate to their human is. This is the great lesson for us all It comes in welcoming the unwelcoming. You share this that the person who has caused the greatest humiliation, the greatest pain, pray. The greatest suffering is also your latest teacher. Madam, should be thanking that person. That's right now
Someone was asking about the other day that I really don't buy that channel so it than we had a great. We had a good conversation but late. They you'd have to buy it or not. They have you baby. It, though you can open up to it and an end. Traditionally, that's called something like troublemakers as gurus yeah barrier there, your teeth, I share the story that when I was moving from Chicago, I was going through all of my old stuff and found all these love letters that I had written to someone in my twenties and I sat in the closet weeping for the woman. I was grateful that I had come
through whatever my delusions, were here and also said, a thank you to that guy. That's if any failure, because I thought what what look look, who turns out to be one of my greatest teachers ass, a person than I thought, was causing ass yeah, but it takes time to get their takes time. It's hard to see it when there there now when you're in it, but but I think in all people do have a lot of wisdom in it. If they read a book like this one worked when things fall apart or any them, and that message kind of click says like this is interesting to me.
Then, are sometimes people that they say stumble on the truth of it themselves. In there they already know it yeah. Do we just keep getting reinforce? What we already know that what's going on here, unless until you stop doing, but I would say, if you just look down and humanity onawandah go all continents are lower that mostly that's what's happening, you just keep reinforcing the view that you already have and as you get older, we are what happens sure will just get smaller and smaller airborne were afraid of more things. I wanted to ask you about this this. This idea of things getting reinforced and karma coming up for you when
allegations of sexual abuse it shambolic that were made about a year ago? There is a new times headline that read the king of Sham Bala. Buddhism is undone by abuse report. Now we ve seen this behaviour in catholic priests in voice scout leaders in Hollywood executives in now, people have become awaken to it. There is no place where it's not as and now the Buddhist community has been rocked by allegations of Saturn. That's what I happened. You felt what I found
Oh man, you fail such a good start of failing she. Now I felt angry with him. I felt deeply saddened for him and for the community and those were the main feelings I think mixed together when that happens in comes in rocks your world. Yes, yeah. Well, that's like a rub. Pulling out experience you I now, and in that case I think twenty other reports came out of such misconduct by other leaders of Allah, oh yeah, that situation is as harangued as you know, and I live futures
completely lab in the area. And now I mean I'm, I'm too old to earthly worry about it too much, because using your teacher there, the right, I am officially still a senior teacher there, but I also have another teacher at wipe had for us, instant. Ninety nine and I also wore outside of Somaliland, an inch or so in a way and, as I say things like solitary trader, my most favorite thing but many people they have completely were devoted to him, and I have always known him since he was a teenager and I've always had a strong heart connection, but on the other hand, it wasn't the same for me as further people that had never had another teacher or anything and for them there at then life it just blows up in the air
they can imagine what and how they can go forward with their spiritual practice. So, as you know, in a follow up investigation, there was an unnamed woman said that you ignored her reports of sexual abuse and that this allegedly happened over fifteen years ago, and she claims that she reported being raped to you and you responded by saying I dont believe you and if it's true, I suspect that you were into it and then, in September, twenty eighteen, after speaking with her, you issued this statement saying I was able to tell her that I feel very differently now. I believe what she told me and going forward, I hope to be a better listener and not again say such insensitive and hurtful remarks to those who come to me for help. What did you learn
about yourself through this cause. You all had a phone conversation. I had a long good conversation. Well, what did this teach you yeah yeah. I ah well it to turn me in again to how important it is to allow people to change myself in this case. But in this whole very important movement. That's happening now. The meter movement, which I I really am applaud, I'm glad it's happening, but I think that what what where it gets problematic for me is when people don't allow for someone to change. They just fix them in their mine, as demon for completely bad like frozen in time, and they don't then allow for the fact that someone why
from their sunlight change. You know so for me that whole thing up that people are treated are not fixed. People are fluid and dynamic and always changing, and you have to help people. So when you have the conversation with the woman who had accused, you have not hearing you have fifteen years ago, what did you say to her she agreed first want to talk to me session. New wireless call, you I said I'm calling up to apologize, but first of all under us there's something you set. You want to say to me, and then she talked for about half an hour of telling me that situation again and what had happened to her and and how she had come to me and how what she had felt like when she laughed did you hear it differently, this time, of course completely differently, and
The thing is it is long enough ago that I dont remember exactly how I heard it. Then, however, she shape she certainly remembers, and that to me was the most important thing is that she fur failed heard and that she felt acknowledged, and that and in that I was very grateful she, except in my apartment, and did you regret the way she perceived you had handled it before all? For sure I mean I I saw it was a wake up call I thought. Oh, my goodness, you know I had kind of a rosy piss picture of me doing countless interviews with people. Then being the better for it, and then you know what I am that this is not the only woman that left failing, not heard in one way or another, and that in it,
and always a rosy picture, but my intention always is to help you know, that's always my intention and not to hurt. So of course I found you. I must regret that I had left her feeling so traumatized by the time you got off the phone. What had happened we had communicated from the heart ten. We both felt that we had some sense of friends. Motion around the relationship. We both agreed to keep in touch. You know now and then- and I said to her if you feel like at any time, if things painful for you, and you want to talk to me. I think you can trust me and present time and she said well. Thank you very much So I thought so you think she felt heard evidently share articulated that Jimmy felt her. What do you think about
this moment wherein we're talkin about this me to moment where women who have experienced endured. You know sexual harassment, even sexual assault, feeling uncomfortable now feel like. Being able to speak up, liberates them in a way that they could not have been prior to this moment. I think it's great and the other thing is. There is countless, alas, women who didn't think at the time it was so culturally accept. What happened to us an office or what happened to us in a marriage or whenever I you know our husband, the our mutual friends or any of this step, and then you use like a hush. That was not.
Thing: yes, how our generation our generation my generate, I mean, I think, of the things that I have allowed to be said to me and the things and I Tol rated in what I put up with in offices in what are you know that I feel that for even my young daughters who were from South Africa, they wouldn't halibut at one moment they will. I now yes, my grandchildren, Why I gladly second, not a second modest lack, and that not a second matter as- and I think that's a good thing as we ve got a good face now relate goods, but did just to say again. The only part of it that I always want to address is when it gets when you're mine gets frozen and someone becomes. Like a demon, are in like that, like there's, no room to say maybe they'll change or maybe, but if there's been a criminal act, yeah emitters-
acts have consequences, and there has been a criminal act. Oh yeah, that's right, but that doesn't mean that that man or woman is permanently. It has to be like that forever I mean that's. The problem with the criminal justice system is that they are just fixed they're for what their crime was in. There is no very little meant very few bridge Persians actually address trying to help people move along. I think it this moves in stages. You know I've spoken to women who have been assaulted and have just now gained the freedom or the ability actually for themselves to to do is to say what has happened in I've. Asked this question about win. Win is their room for forgiveness and several of them,
said to me: we're not ready to talk forgiveness, yet we're just getting our voices to be heard. That's chat, yeah, that's you know. So, just as everything goes in stage, three moves in stages like loosened stages stage. Now I think is, can we actually be heard? Can you hear me- and this is what I say matter yeah you know I was talking to a once- we're not ready to get there. I Harry Harry you have to allow this moment until you have the declaration. That's right! That's right, and I also I spent. I think education for me to realise why, for instance, a woman would allow it happen again or why a woman would never have spoken up, or only say which I really understand now so you say the wonderful irony about the spiritual journey as that we find it only leads us to become. Just as we are that the exalted
Date of enlightenment is nothing more than fully knowing ourselves and our world, just as we are. In other words, the ultimate through action of this path is simply to be fully human, and the ultimate benefit we can bring to others is to welcome them, also realise their full humanity, just as they are for that came out of that, incite about what I'm saying that things are neutral. Yeah that you accept to yourself currently today, just as you are lying threading frustrated or as by learning to know the clouds then late in use
their transparency any realised the sky is already always been there. You see what I mean by that yeah. Oh, I definitely know what you mean by that, as you know why one of my favorite moments on on the planet as a human being is to be on the ground and its rainy and you're at the airport, and you get on the plane and you shoot above the clouds and that moment where you shoot about the above, the clouds. And it's all just like softness in my eye- and you see the sun and it was all ways they outright. That's exactly the moment. That's on the corner, where you beneath the clouds and then you shoot above the clouds. Exactly that's interesting. I know that's exactly what I love when that happens, I never saw it that way before that's exactly the moment, I'm talking about great that's a famous analogy
the sum that the sun is always there and that we say: oh, it's, the sun's not showing today, because where experiencing ourselves, yes, that funds not shine and if you begin to adopt a different way of like the sun, is always shining and you can you can get to it, but not by getting rid of the clouds exactly, but by seeing how ephemeral clouds are, but anyway, getting to know what blocks it with. Kindness is magical that his work, welcoming the unwelcome is all about. That's right. Full circle. Thank you. So much. Thank you. Thank you. So much I move ruined ring and you ve been listening to supersede conversations podcast you can super saw on Instagram, twitter and Facebook if you haven't yet good apple broadcasts and subscribe rate and review this punk cast.
Join me next week for another superstar conversation. Thank you for listening.
Transcript generated on 2020-01-09.