And here we have an isolated situation, so these kids are left without protection. The moment when clothes schools we should have been focused on. How do we kids back is there some formula, some piece of advice we can give to these parents to help them navigators, terrain, everybody, I'm really glad that you ve turned again to fill in the blanks. This episode about how we can help our children and young people make up for the time lost, learning and developing socially and emotionally, while they were away from school activities in France. Now we recorded this. but earlier this year before, schools reopen and prior to the delta variant and judge by the current middle Hell studies about lessons, I do believe that everything. We said everything you're gonna hear in today's podcast is run.

on track, and everything rings true today, just as it did when I reported this podcast, if it didn't would update it, but I was every word of it, and it just doesn't need any updating. a post, some resources and tools to help you navigate the mental health needs of your children at fill in the blanks dot com So go there and look because a promise you, your kids, took a hit by being out of school being away from their friends not being in the competition of just spores budget society jockeying further placed on the social ladder being around their peers. being an isolation, takes a toll and it's not going to be excess only as they get back into their lives. You'll hear doktor to stock is talk about how that impacts. A different age group especially those in the first second and third gray, not just academically but socially.

These are differences that can obtain for the next decade, the next two decades and beyond. We need to close these gaps. So listen. We talk about what those gaps are and how We need as parents, to help them close those gaps. You'll find some rules on how to do that. Doctor fill in the blanks dot com, thanks for Listening This is doctor fail and you ve tune in to fill in the blanks, and this is going. be very special for you. I hope, because it is for me, because I am too king to one of my favorite medical professionals and listen. I was a big fan of doktor Dmitri stock has for a long time before I had the privilege and honour of meeting him and having him on doktor fill an amateur, are you why this guy really tells it like it? Is he breaks it down? So we understand it and he's

Eggs with science is not a political bone and his body. He stick with the science and talks about things that matter to us that have children and grandchildren that are caught up in so much of what's going on today and so much a what's not going on just where the pandemic. It's so interesting to hear him talk and I'm gonna give a little bit of an introduction here, but if I gave a problem introduction it would be the entire podcast I swear, but He is director of the Centre for child health behaviour and development at Seattle. Children's research institute, these Georgia kids, professor pediatrics, at the University of Washington. Director of this. Of child health behaviour and developments, yell children's Research institute editor

and chief of jam, a pediatric son in attending pediatrician at Seattle, children's hospital grass, waited for me. I University of Pennsylvania, school of medicine did is pediatric residency, followed by Robert were Johnson clinical scholarship at the University of Washington, from which he oranges, MP, age, he's Two hundred and thirty original research articles, a textbook pediatrics does television work as well make television work for your children. The elephant in the living room was ordered the academic Pediatric Association. Research award for outstanding contributions to pediatric research over his career go on and on. But I want you to hear him not me so, welcome. Doctors. Thank you so much for joining me again. I hate to plenary back Tankerville you're, making me blush man well

You should blush, I have to tell you: do you ever sleep? For God's sakes, I didn't sleep, prevent ethnic, and I tell sleep, I sleep much worse, now, put it that way! Well, I can well imagine licit one of the things that I'm just gonna jump right into this pandemic and we're gonna talk about more than that today, but I am so passionate about- a lot of the work you are doing in the Crystal Palace, lab and part of the introduction of this gentleman is going to be rolling as we talk about the different things that he's doing, but even I've taught for- and I am very We concerned about the impact of cod turrentine and the shutdown of schools and distance learning taking a toll our children in the here and now I think it's a tough. All that we are going to be measuring for years and or decade stay. Calm talk about that

little bit in terms of what the research is showing you, I think, that's absolutely right, after and you know the the that the sad truth is that we now have a vaccine, and many of us are thinking. We see the light at the end of the tunnel, which we do, although it's still a ways off the full impact of this pandemic on children, just as you said, will be felt for years to come. They're suffering because of the stress that it's supposed to from their parents and most immediately, as you pointed out, their lives have been up ended because of their inability goes school in most places. Most of us think of schooling is being essential for children's learning, which, of course it is, and children of all ages don't learn as well over a video as they do in person. I like to say this way Even the best teacher, the most dynamic teacher. When you put her arms zoom, she becomes a boring television shell for children

it's just not nearly as engaging as it in person teacher could be and the best teachers walk around the classroom being gay. each child where they are, they can tell by scanning the room which child is engaged which child is falling behind. How do I make headway? Give one particular child special attention very, very difficult to do, will resume and then, of course, for the youngest children for those in primary school. There is really no evidence that distance learning works at all without apparent in the room, essentially home school kids, which is not an option for many families who have to work outside the home and even for those who are luxury of being at all. It's not something. Most of us are good at doing, especially when we have to balance our own needs and our own jobs will that's exactly right. Care who we are most of us are not professional educators, and

Sixty four percent of the workforce does not have a job that can ease we be done from home, so they do have to work outside the home. and if they are at home- and there are multiple children and they have- other responsibilities and they're, not professional educators and relationship already exist in a way that they are now in the row of being teacher student and it's really hard to redefine that role where they have to become the edge, national taskmaster. So it's like you can take the advice from a teacher, but not from your mom. Dad, so that makes it tough absolutely I no, my children are in their twenties at. I shudder to think if I had to be their primary school teacher, particularly my son, it would not have gone well for either of us. Oh, my god, I've got family members. That'll are something in cosmopolitan magazine and say Gaston

you know this actually idea. I've been telling you that for thirty years, but I read it in a magazine and it's a revelation- they get it from dad doktor fail. It goes in one year and out the profits are without honour in their own land. You know so much. Does it come the same from mom and dad welders? That famous mark TWAIN thought that I love. It says that he is his son said in when I left for college My father was a stupid man. I ever knew when I came back for years later. I was amazed at how much heed learn. Will I be suspect, like this episode is brought to you the Jordan Harbinger Show, which is a pod cash you we should be listening to ask our listening two years ago, Checkout Jordan, conversations with rob, reed about why the future is a good kind of scary or John Acre about the surprising solution to over thinking. Jordan's, always folks. I'm pulling useful practical insights abbot, his brilliant guest and we're not talking about pops

ecology or wishy washy self help stuff. Here I should know the sounds, are loaded with bits of wisdom that you can use to legitimately improve your life and improve it right away. We really this show- and we thank you- will as well there's just so much here so Jack Jordan, Harvard you're dot com, slashed start for some episode, recommendations or search for the Jordan Harbinger show that's a J r B, boy. I am, as in Nancy G are on Apple podcast by fi or wherever you listen to podcast you'll, be glad you did that, we talk about the learning aspect and clearly at first The schools went to pass fail, so right standard was dropped in kids. Responded to that. So I think, One would agree, there's an educational quality deficit but beyond. that from us

like a logical standpoint, the thing that I'm worried about is that the kids are missing out on the social interaction that competition now go. Creating ate in peer relationships. All the things only can come from interpersonal interactions and the absence of that means that those skills are arrested and not developing. How do they then compete with those that didn't go through that arrests station when get out into the competitive workforce, yeah yeah! certainly right so school is not just a place for a kind of development is equally importantly, a place for social, emotional development and, in fact, he looked for long term studies of success. Social intelligence is typically a better, stronger protector. Then then, then, education,

or even cognitive abilities right. It really matters how you get along with people how'd you negotiates and for young children. Their developmental pointing alike, were their learning that, and you can't learn that over zoom, you can't learn it with the dolls. You really do learn. It proved play in particular for ya with younger children. The EU also learn imagination through play. You learn negotiation, as you said, your cooperation we're seeing the effects of that already. We ve seen a rise of anxiety and depression. We ve seen tragically an increase and suicidal radiation and suicide attempts in in Europe. Lessons and adolescent children in this country and were still in the midst of all of it. I don't think we ve taken the full measure of the mental health toll in part in part B Teachers are another essential set of eyes that frequently alert us that a child was having particular levels of distress. Whether mental

when social. So you absolutely right, there is a huge tall being taken. and we need to be prepared to mitigate that very aggressively. I am also concerned that we are seeing a huge drop off in referrals to job creation, these services and the department, a child and family serves, is depending on what it's called indifferent stay but child welfare, because teachers admit traders staffers at school are mandated reporters and- many of the referrals come from I was mandated reporters who observe children, that have bruises on them or report to their teachers. Alzheimer's or whatever, if they're being met, emotionally abuse, sexually molested or whatever. Then, though, referrals are down some cities, Ford as much as fifty or sixty percent

We know that the abuse has not dropped off fifty or sixty percent. Just the referrals, for the abuse. So that means these children are being abandoned without Objec. Without siders to mitigate so they're, just and left the nuts one tool of the abuser is ice elation, and here we have an isolated situation, so these kids are left without protection. You actually right the paradox that doctor fills not just that reporting is down, but every indication is that it should be up right because the biggest predictors of of child abuse and neglect are stress substance, use financial detriment, homelessness, these things are on the rise right makes no sense that we're seeing less child abuse and the glass we'd be expecting to see more and were seen less it's out. There were just not capturing it. you and I are two people

no- that have been talking about this for months. All of these things for months the social Laws the middle emotional development, the educational loss, the abyss, these issues, you and I know- are to people that have been talking about this and we're not the only ones, but we certainly have been at the or front of the narrative. Why is no one doing anything about this. Why Is this not headline why, when its talk about. Everybody goes up, ok, how many people I'd today, how many cases were reported today, but yet this doesn't get a headline beside it. Well, you know the sad truth is as much as we talk about how

port and our children are we built with our feet. We vote with our pocket book and children don't vote, they don't make financial contributions and all to commonly they are not the way or not. Or are you not our top priority? and this has been made clear over and over again we make it clear when we have bars and restaurants open in schools closed. We have made clear when we have to stimulus packages? a trillion dollars each and vanished Only few dollars were directed towards schools or to services for children. This is is the reality and it's an unfortunate one. I think its shameful other countries have not done at the way we ve done it some started the way we did. I mean I don't follow us. shutting schools down early in the pandemic. I think it was the right thing to do, because we didn't

know how dangerous the virus was, the children- and we had ever to believe that schools would be a major source of contagion because they are usually are the moment which we close schools. We should have been focused on. How do we get kids back when we didn't there's gonna be a very long tail to this pandemic. Law the jobs of eradicating the contagion much much longer in terms of seeing the full effects of it on children's cognitive, social and emotional development will, I could not agree more and more economical. Every single life, that's lost whether it is a child teens, twenty thirty sixty seventies, every life. This lost this disease in America is tragic Ray dollars spent to fight this disease at any level is valid, and I am not complaining about the money and effort has been spent where its bins

I'm just complaining about what money has been spent to vote? saw the children and the education and development of them, mentally emotionally socially educationally real Finally, an ear this is a long, lead question and solution. I read a pull that said. Less than twin five percent of African Americans. Arson they will take the back, see right, and yet we know that there are increasing numbers. Fatalities and severe reactions in that particular population. So In the inner cities, are we going to have low, socio economic? minorities that are under vaccine It is an over infected and how Are we going to deal with that?

can clear. Some of this up from the medical side, what the truth about the vaccine? Do people need to understand the ass? for so I want to reiterate what you said: that there is a long standing, understandable distrust of the african american community prettily with respect to vaccinations and experimental therapies goes back to the ski goes back longer than that, I'm not a medical, historic factor. This. This distrust is its long standing in its it's well, founded on at least historically. I think this vaccine, you say you're absolutely right- that the communities that that needed the most may be the least likely to take it, which is very unfortunate because the other told it did that this disease takes is the loss of apparent or grandparent, which is disproportionately affecting minority populations and children of color.

The state of bereavement for a child over the loss of a pair of being parent itself is a huge impact so about the vaccine itself. It's about the most effective vaccine. We had me, this is the only thing that compares to it. But a very effective vaccine people need to be vaccinated for us to stop the cycle. Are we gonna get there? I don't know, now so far. We know that the vaccine is effective and its safe in terms of side effects in one can rightly ask what about long term. Side effects and have to be honest with you. You said one of the man of science. I am nobody knows a longterm side effects because the vaccine seat been around along long. We all know longterm side effects if any for some time but I studied this- I'm not a vaccine. Ecologists but I'm I'm voting with my feet. I think the problem is that we have politicized as we please

size the pandemic by the way, all over the place, every aspect of it has been made has been politicize, which is extremely unfortunate, and I hope we can undo that with respect to the vaccine cause. It's. The viruses in the pocket of the virus doesn't belong to a political party and a vaccine Jim Ballade, blocked a political party either. What let me ask you this: some people are afraid of the flu vaccines, as I think that it gives them the flu because they they're getting alive piece of virus, which is not the case, but with this vaccination I have read accounts that say when you get first one you're going to have some soreness at the end action, sigh right, and you may feel a little rough that day when you get the second In three weeks later, I've read Arctic. those that have said I had to, fever of my life, chills, I had shortness of breath. It was

I had a day of covered nineteen, then it was terrible but it went away in twenty four hours: what percentage of the people, our having that degree of side effective. You know once you start breaking down by age by gender by re by necessity, by underlining disease by past exposures to other viruses? You end up with very very small sell sizes to figure out the exact cited pigs, but what you said and principles exactly right: the first vaccine causes a local reaction. Just from the needle itself, is a mild inflammation of the injection site and then with a second vaccine. Some people do have some of the symptom Of course you know. Why is that? What is a vaccine do? Well? The vaccine is in effect activating your immune system. Right, it's it's! It giving the signal it needs to look for covert the next time. It sees it. So this

I can tell you get the vaccine you're getting in fact some of the covert spite protein that your immune system is looking for and so your hand, some of that. A mule reaction. People to realise but the symptoms of a virus, many of them are your bodies own immune system, fighting that virus right? We you will understand that I think the virus is causing the symptoms actually So the symptoms are your own body fighting the virus, so you will be, will have that reaction. But what I can say categorically and assuredly is that those that the effects of the vaccine are way less than one would have it, actually got symptomatic, covert, Nanette along get symptomatic old, but a bit symptomatic of it and keep in mind. We are seeing. A sizeable percentage of people become what we call whores and have prolonged symptoms of the virus, going on eight nine ten months. None of that has been seen with the vaccine.

So so you're way better off having the symptoms you get from the vaccine than from getting covered itself. Is Europe I believe that we should have in. School, brick and mortar classroom attendance. So it's hard to make a blanket recommendation about that for the entire country and for all children. What I would suggest is that we start with somebody The principles, one that getting children to school should be our first priority, so that one principle, the second principle is that we need to have systems in place to try to keep schools as safe as possible. We know that We need to happen. It varies from it. This. How well schools are able to do those things so teacher? need to have met up with great p p classroom need to have opportunities for overdue to to wash them.

As for him, hygiene children He too, where mass they need to be trained, wear, masks and the need to wear them reliably at as early as the developmental capable of doing it. And then we need to as best as possible in age, appropriate way practice social distancing. These things work. We know they worked in the community and they worked in some schools are managed to go back. So I think that we the priority is getting children back in school. We should focus first on price Mary schoolchildren children- because you are the ones that are hardest hit from those that are getting virtually no education without parental involvement and all of us the community should make that our number one priority. Now. I fully recognise that one of the drivers of keeping bars and restaurants and other business is open. Is the necessity to to maintain those businesses, but the other way of doing- that is that we should have done

from the beginning. Many countries in Europe, for example, guarantee people their paychecks but told them to stay home, except for essential businesses, and I would argue that bars and restaurants are not essential businesses all in all, as a means they helping children get be in school, so the answer to your question is not I mean to dodge it. I just think that there should be. Community United States, we're bars and restaurants, rope in schools or not. That should be the litmus test it. everything in those communities closed if the prevalence is so high. If the spread is so rampant, then shut everything down, but let's put chilled first, and you are also saying this: not one size fits all. You have some areas where population today is so much less than others, where contagion might be at a much less rapid right, where

It's a reasonable risk to open a school where it might not be and say York, city or a San Francisco, or something where you have much greater density, an opportunity for contagion, and yet in New York City schools are open and schools that have so here's a tale to cities near city. Schools are open day. They closed temporarily. They reopen them and the prevalence in New York is best. We can estimate prevalence is almost twice what it is in Seattle and Seattle. Schools have been closed, the whole time so you know it's it's it's an interesting decision that made locally and So I want to point out that these- and I don't know it's frustrating for parents, because many parents here these positivity rates that are thrown out indifferent school districts, different cities, different communities have different positivity numbers

they're all made up, nobody knows what the right answer is and in fact school districts that have opened under different levels, have seen different amounts of spread because of all the reasons we talked about, how well the school is actually doing mitigation strategies everyone's in search of that number, that tells you can open school safely or not, but there is no such number there. Isn't there is an article estimate, Of? U S? Children's educational attainment, any years of life lost associated with primary school closure during the corona virus pandemic. That's my article I know no, why referencing? You explain what you were talking about their cause. You say that five point: five, three million years of life lost because of the Mary school closures rain, so that the study is

sons were what too widely accepted assumptions, one that education improved health. That the more educated children are the healthier. it will be over their lifetimes and the second is the interrupted schooling, distance learning. As recalling it, doesn't really work well, if at all, for primary school kids. So if we accept those two premises, then the question becomes ok. Distance learning doesn't really work so were impacting children's educational attainment, and that educational attainment has implications for their life. Expected

So if you look in the United States alone, ok, education is a very strong predictor of lifelong health. For many reasons, because better education means better job in our country. Better job means better health benefits road. It means the longer vacations for relaxation it means. Kinds of things that improve health and long jeopardy. So what we did in a study was tried a model. What the consequences will be of. children missing education and therefore having lower educational attainment on their expected life expectancy many years in the future. So this isn't, its dying today. This is them down. Living, shorter lives. Ultimately, friend Again, it's one of the invisible aspects of this pandemic: I can see those effects now we're going to see later we're gonna see, drops in high school graduation of the moment

go back to school, but we're gonna keep seeing. Go graduation rates go down for many years to come unless We take aggressive remediation approaches. And that's another essential part of this. I could feel that you know when September comes if we The pandemic is over, it's not over, for children We need to invest resources to help make them whole. There are always been disparities and children's education in our country. Those despair, these are being exacerbated enormously. You mentioned before about some There is not even being able to work from home not being comfortable teaching their children, their many parents who have a lot of income. Who basically higher teachers to provide private through their children, Kids are still suffering the social emotional damage from not being school, but there a very good education wrong, not to

of their low income. Classmates. I recently received my helix mattress and I have to tell you I absolutely love it. I wake feeling rested and refreshed it's the best mattress I have ever had. I took the helix sleep quiz, and I was matched with the back sleeper mattress, because I sleep my back and I wanted something that felt firm. This is true early, the mattress for me and I have to say I've got to big dogs and they even love. It now check it out, just go to Hell. sleep, dot, Slash Phil, take their two minutes, sleep quit. And they match you to a customized mattress that I promise you will give you the best sleep in your life. They have a ten year warranty and you get to try it out for a hundred nights risk free. That's right. I said a hundred nights risk free. He likes his offering up to two hundred dollars off all mattress orders and to free pillows. For

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challenging and test my trivial knowledge, trivia star has thousands of foster reviews and the apple store, and is the number one trivia game on the app store downloaded today to challenge yourself just go to apple store or Google store and search for trivia star there, mode trivia star for free today and get ready to flex your brain muscles some people that have hired teachers that are getting three or four families. Children together exact and are doing private classes and they're, probably getting more tension than they would get in a twenty percent classroom, that's great, but that's a privileged most don't get desk, and that's gonna, be one of the enormous challenges teachers face in the fall even if and when they are reunited with their students. They're gonna find it

it's not as if all students are six or not months behind and we can just why back. The clock is We would have been six or nine months ago. You're gonna be a very different stages. Some kids might even be ahead of where they otherwise would have been added that that there's gonna be why variation and children's mental health and social issues which still require even more private attention and reason schools of didn't need an enormous influx of cash to deal with all of these things and again something we should be playing for now. We know, what's going to happen in the far right, no surprise there. No one is gonna, be shocked to see, there's gonna be Kids are behind kids around your lot of emotional distress, kid that are depressed anxious. We know all that. So where is the plan to start hiring additional teachers aid, social workers mental health workers to be in the schools to deal with this crisis. We can start that an just and be ready in September. We need

our planning now for it will that's right- and I know this statistic- it- I've heard you talk about it as well, and that is good, situation rates are going to decline and the reason for that- or at least one reason for that in my opinion- is that if children. Are not reading on grade level. In the third grade, the prediction is that their likelihood of not graduating is four times normal. Iraq and lower, Socio economic, it six times normal and The point is that when they get back and a school and they are behind. They just never catch up and they become more and more discourage their self esteem goes down, their self worth goes down there. Innovation goes down, so they be and to look for other ways to fine cell worth, and self esteem

participation in other ways, so they become less motivated academically in with the frustration they just turn away from their education. That's why I fear, is these kids are going to go back with this six nine twelve month deficit, be frustrated by the inability to do work particular of their at that cast where they go from forth to fifth grade? Where things really pick up and x? acted. Do more independently that the gap is be so great that they just don't ever close the gap, and that's where you see him start falling behind you actually right. So the first assessment we got the first kind of what we thought was a national assessment of children's performance in the fall show that that reading hadn't suffered very much but map in particular, supper. Tended twelve points were here's the missing part of all that the missing part is the missing part. There were twenty five percent of the? U S chill, that we had no assessment not at all, and those are the one.

They worry about the most right. These are the kids it! No one can you Fine, you do. The assessment on these are probably the kids aren't even doing distance learning. Who knows what's happening to them? No one's and assessment on them, so that The kids are going to be even most impact it and we have no idea just have found their deficits are gonna, be until we do those assessments when we see them again the fall and your right. This is the biggest tragedy with our education system is that very early performance is highly predictive of long term. Graduation rates, again is the reason Henry schools, so important kids get on trajectories very early in life and if they start to fall behind Scooby, as you said, they get discouraged school becomes a challenge. It's not it's not engaging, it's not fun it's distressing and that creates kind of a vicious downward spiral. And then you ve got a problem with a tragic labeling. They label themselves the system labels them. Then they start.

living to the label, and you get a snowball effect, and this is what's going to be so profoundly impact full in years to come. That is invisible right now and one thing: oh for sure and testified before a bipartisan committee on the re authorization of the air mercury and secondary education act about putting funding is to deal with cyber bullying, and one thing I know for damn sure is: if you, put money in the budget to pay in the curriculum, and awareness a workshop to begin to you you might as well be. any ocean. If you don't put money in the curriculum, if you don't put, time in the curriculum. If you put accountability in the curriculum. It won't get done

and if we don't do something to close this gap and put in mechanisms in the curriculum to grab this kids that have fallen back and close, that gap ill, never get close it has to be an affirmative programme where they are dinner there level is determined and that's rare, mediated and Romania aided right up front. Absolutely I couldn't agree more, you know. The truth of the matter is that schools were cast strap before pandemic it's not like. They were very well equipped to meet children where they were particularly low income children before all of this so there is no reason to expect that can be in a better position afterwards. Moreover, keep in mind that a lot of schools budget comes from local tax levies right, and places are seeing a huge cuts in those. So the truth is that schools

in normal circumstances, will have even less resources to deal with many greater challenges and so you're absolutely right. We should be thinking strategically now about what mechanisms need to be put in place, and providing the resource for it. Now, today, tomorrow, and no one starting You and I need to be made a visit to Capitol Hill and speak these committees, about putting money in the budget for this cause, they're cutting programmes not adding and all of you stimulus programmes that may be great and they need that, but they need it for the school It is well these teachers, majority, these teachers are getting paid embarrassingly low and stay. Getting in their own pockets for materials to use in the classroom and now they're gonna be asked to do this as well.

I'm ready whenever you aren't, I could feel if you wanna go to capital hell I'll come with you. I did. I tell you what I'm going to take you up on the actors. I could make it happen and I'm gonna make it out because they re to focus on this. I absolutely do It's so so very important, and I guess my next question, since I've got the export of, birch here is do you say to parents to do now too, help manage this scenario because We say we ve got parents that aren't educators, they you'll have to point two adds a bargain dog a double income family, so they're both working outside the home, hopefully they both have been able to keep some form. income flowing in their ears, depression stress anxiety, worry about mortgaging things of that

nature, is there something they can do to minimize the gap maximize the learning experience is there some formula, some piece of advice weaken give to these? and to help them navigators terrain? So the first thing Paris thing to do is to give themselves grace it's an extraordinarily stressful time and in all parents are not only dealing with their own stressors, but the stresses of their children and- and there are great I get- I gave you males and calls from parents all over the country severely anxious about the impact on their children's mental health and on their on their kind of development, we're all doing the best we can and that's what's most important in terms of practical advice,

primary. School kids may not find their zoom talk with their teacher. Engaging at all. Don't worry about that. Don't try to force them to do it. They're not gonna get anything out of it, especially if they're, not interested better, that you watch the content if you can get some of how you can use those lesson plans in we, in your own child, middle and high school kids can, to varying degrees, participate in distance learning. But again Charles different in every families different in terms of the resources they have, both both in terms of social rights. resources to support their job, which is also in terms of the technology and the bandwidth to allow them to even zoom in again do the best you can give yourself grace through Many of these things are beyond our control and you can only control things you can control. The final thing I say, though, around children's mental health in particular, and this

frankly varies with what a lot of public health advice publicly given is, and that is to identify a pod for your child or for your family, so that you can have contact with people outside of your family, in particular that your children can have opportunities to play and interact with kids their age outside the family. Zoo play dates, just don't work for for primary school kids for toddlers they need to be, around other children and we need to create opportunities for them to do so so find another family or to that Here's your values that are very careful about their own mitigation strategies that would alert you if they were exposed anybody that was sick, that doesn't socialize with other p. bull outside of the part that you ve created and try to find opportunities for you guys get together.

Daily outside, if possible, for the kids to play. If you live in a place where the weather allows it, but inside, if necessary, masked if possible so I think this is something that we really need to be doing. Many people are doing it, but the problems, because without sort of very discreet advice, people are doing it Willy nilly in others they concern. I have to fill this pandemic he has set in the fatigue, makes people do things that they shouldn't do we need to do this safely and in a in a you know. When is protective away as we can, and I can tell you that not only have I created my family most of my colleagues. Have we don't talk about in public you know. There's no public health officials saying do it this way, but I think a special for young children is something that we need to do well. What greater, vice, and I want to go back to work things you said earlier on

it needs underlining. You said these primary school kids are probably getting little or more likely nothing out of these zoom learning sessions, because it's just too mention, and they just can't relate. But you said for the parents, if they at all possible, can watch or review the lesson and then go over that with their kid, so it is human contact and they can do it and I've got to grandchildren return and London, eight and a half my son, J and daughter Erica, do eggs. Actually that- and I have two very precocious grand kid, so they are really good at school, but parents sit down weathermen, interactive them about it, and they turn it in the games like flash card.

Division, sort of things and they do it while their shootin baskets outside or something and work there. lay through it and it comes alive for them. So, even if you can this take thirty there are forty five minutes and do what you're saying it brings it alive for them and jobs, the screen where its human interaction and of not anybody say it that way. That is such a brilliant point and you dont need three hours to do it. You can do in forty five minutes or thirty minutes and go bring it alive for them. That is such good advice and Europe about this pod thing and nobody wants to talk about it. But the fact is, if you're right, possible. I dont know anybody, that's not, doing that. It's better, then just haphazard Lee going off. If you no people that their maintaining city

she guidelines, you know who they are around you know that their respecting all of the guidelines with wearing the mass skin washing their hands and staying out of crowds you know who they ve been around. So it's safe to let your let's be with those kids what they gain from that interaction and that play to me it sir worth the risk. If you do it responsibly, and particularly if you can do it, like you said, outside or in a well circulated area with good circular it. It seems to make all the sense in the world. The truth is And months in this, with quarantine fatigue. The realities are what they are. Exactly. I've got friends that come we're in play. Tennis at my house, if I know they ve been As for twenty years, they go from their house to my house

play tennis and back to their house in my house with his back to the way they work from home and that's and we're outside in were spread out in there. it's. Fine. Yes, absolutely probably your tennis, improving as a result of all this. Oh everybody, students going. every day the legislative work thing that's come with a pandemic, equally so there are way is to do this, and I feel so badly for people that are in city of high rise, where it's hard to get to a green belt and get outside, and so for in the north, where the weather is tough and it is makes it harder and harder, which is why I really hope that vaccine takes hold and has the effect that we wanted to have. Do you think there be a vaccine for children. Or do you think that something this necessary? I think there will be a vaccine for children eventually I'll tell you that I think we

Take the very long view of the vaccine for children, because the vaccine safety profound needs to be much better for children think about where we used to be with with something like chicken pox right. When I was a kid we used have chicken pox parties. The worst thing was to get you in part as an adult, if you got it as a child, I mean it What line you wasn't the best week in my life, but I forgot Chicken Pox mother, put my brother me in a car. around with our neighbour when their child got chicken pox alone, boldly both got a week later a box is amusing as an analogy, because it's much more severe adults and isn't kids and we do the chicken pox vaccine knowledge, is required in many places too many years to develop, It took a long time, long term studies to show that, in fact, that really is safe and good for kids, because we want to be sure that it wasn't worth than the original disease was for kids right fewer than a hundred

the year died from chicken Pox back in the day. So we were, to make sure the vaccine is safe and a lot of people, My point is our two because a lot of people, including lot of scientists, I said to me. Well I mean if the vaccine works in older children and adults. Why won't work and children well, this virus is like any virus, we ve ever seen before it doesn't the way via This is normally do normally children are much more susceptible to viruses. Then older children Adults are so this virus. A different children is very possible. That seen with very different of young children. The clinical trials now go down to each twelve that had just started. I think there are both Madeira Pfizer for what I understand You have plans to go younger than that, but that's gonna take time and the truth is

The truth is from a societal perspective, Doktor Phil. If we vaccinated everybody over the age of twelve right, we can open up and we can get back to normal and weaken Wait to make absolutely certain that our youngest children will be safe from this vaccine before we give it to them there will be a new normal. You know, there's a sizeable percentage of people that are not interested or not willing, or at least scared or hesitant to take the vaccine. So if we can move that needle we will be, close to back to normal. You know, I think it's gonna take a long time for all of us to feel comfortable, not wearing a man. we're gonna have to learn that bit of muscle memory- you'd, I I don't know if you ve had this experience. I hope I watch a lot more movies and shows that I ever have during this pandemic.

How does a worse if we actually, what I see people up close, not wearing a mask? You know it's like right. What are you doing when was this film? That's how inculcated has become right into our psyche, so you're the, ecologists. This does it we don't just or on learn that one day right, it's gonna take a while to get beyond that of verse of reaction to not having a mask on and I wonder if the new normal is going to be that we don't shake hands We do have an elbow bomb poor, we just kind of na if some of the things that we done for so many generations are going to be obsolete. Then we're going to do things differently. Absolutely is actually say that, because you know better, yours in primary and secondary school that save themselves. I get sick every year. by get influenza get every cold. Everything for us all is not entirely They got it in the school, they might have got it in the community.

Even though the God of the school we know they're not actually doing a lot of the things they should be doing in. Maybe that will be the new normal, not observer in Mass in school, but be warned Conscious of watching our. He is not touching other people's faces. Wiping. offices. I bet we're going to see much less influenza transmission in the years to come in schools. I think so because teachers of always author of Herbert Grab, my many with thirty little petri dish, is still have to take care of myself. Now thereafter. doing it? So there is some silver lining to this will be more cognizant of it I wonder if we are reducing our natural immunity by now being exposed to some other. terms that we ve built up an immunity to by being so clean. Is that a possibility? Extradition point? And we see it, we seen in my hospital admissions for all infectious disease or wait out, because because

legislation, does it just work forgotten? It works for all viruses right. So we a drop admission for asthma, for we call bronchiolitis, which is up a pneumonia that young children get, which is an infectious disease from and What that means is that young children in particular that usually get these viruses and build up in meeting the are not getting them this year. So what that means Is it and will see whether or not this is true that they will be more susceptible to them when they are back in school there not building up an immunity. Most parents know this that if your Charles and dig here I went through this, they have a cold It seems like continuously cause. It's vertically. The typical call symptoms will last four six weeks in again and then use get one every other marked. So the feeling is that the job, as already knows all the time but those bite, but their frequency viral infections, actually go

down, and the more infections that get early life, the fewer they get a school age, so children that are I kept by nannies in their home when they first starts will. They get a lot more infections than children that were in daycare because they have not build up. Didn't you talked about so yes, we are creating a covert, young children in particular that have seen very very few viruses, It only means that the parents with more sick days and they have in the past, but it so much better than Lockdown- what we are saying is that parents definitely You should show themselves some grace if their feeling straight pressure intention about this, because the didn't sign up to be workers. Parents and teachers in isolation cut yourself a break because its natural that the same

to be overwhelming your coping energies that, as a main you're a bad parent, it does it mean nature week at this- means that this is a perfect storm of demands and show yourself some grace as that with others. Body needs it exactly that they should definitely be like in into getting their children back to school, because it is in their child's best interests, Cognitive Lee educationally socially, emotionally relational e competitively just a cry the board developmentally there better off to be inner acting, so they can closed again developmentally with all of these skills that can only come through interpersonal interactions. Absolutely I agree Is there some risks to that? Yes, but I think it's greatly outweighed by all.

The gains you get from having those interactions and will pay off in the long term, and neither you nor I are saying to be nicholas about this sort of put teachers, lives at risk and throw com. to the wind for them, in fact Both of us are saying they should go the front. The line, other essential workers, because our children are essential and they spent. Forty percent of their waking hours with teachers, their shaping our children's young minds and their tremendous assets to our society. So we should protect, her teachers and put them at the front line, but I certainly recommend that we get the schools open as soon as we can safely do it with a plan protect our teachers but get our kids back came into the world, so they can start developing the way they need to. I agree hopeful

We can do that and I'm not joking about us going and talking to the people that control the purse strings. The curriculum for the schools on a federal basis because, as you say, they ve been cutting programmes and budgets not adding to it, and this it's gonna be a big one. You and I are likewise around when I said. I would join No. You are you a crouching side me from the psychological side. I think we could get their attention all right. Let's do it I'll see. If I can make that happen, listen I tell you what an honour it has been to have you sit down and spend this time with me. I think this is going to be so valuable for parents and grandparents alike, and I have such tremendous respect for your work and your college- and I hope we can do this again. As things evolve, we can be a go to place. for parents and grandparents to know what's happening in the real world. Not my pleasure.

Have you come back, and I want to thank you for covering this and for your advocacy on on behalf of young children. They they they they they don't have enough advocates and they really need them and you were very powerful one. So thank you very thank you so much we'll talk again. So doktor apprehend you take care, stay safe and keep your tennis gone. You bet on that. Take care so long.