All they're trying to do is get those kids to give them their parents. Credit card information internet just made this much worse and much easier to do. My mother showed me a letter. She said it s really not because she's got a scam so many times, People think they can't get caught, because it's on the internet, the tinder swindler. He was using money from one woman to pay another woman to gallivant around the world. I don't want you getting cons, scammed and ripped off stock to fill your own fill in the blanks, and today we are talking about fraud, and I'm doing this because there is so much going on right now. Maybe it's because we're opening backup import, we're getting more active, but there's so much happening right now that

getting so much interest from people about scams and frauds and cons, and you ve seen it on Netflix were the making of Anna and not interviewed and Adelphi. Last week, the little beyond Phil soon you'll hear of what's going on with all of that. But I want to talk today about who are are these scammers? Who are these con men, and I'm not talking just about the catfish that we deal with your? Why do they do what they do? What do they do? Well, those sorts of things and understand. There are different kinds of currency that motivate. on man and fraudsters different kind of pay Some people obviously do it for the money. Some do it for attention. Do it for fame. Maybe they do it for sympathy. But there are different kinds of currency. Were too Talking about the confidence man, the car, man the scams that they run in their internet scams, their male scams their phone scams. But

promise you before the end of this month scammer some con man is going to intersect with you in your life, one way or another and so on want to talk about how to spot these things. What the red flags are, so you don't become part of this multi billion dollar industry. I want to talk to you about how you can stay safe online, you can ensure you aren't the next victim. I have some great expert is with me today, Tracy, Cisco or Macneil Steve Green Bergen, exhibitor, Pope, who I will introduce more thoroughly in just a minute, but let me set the stage first, because when we talk about con man, I mean Who are we talking about? Are we talking about just straight up criminals cycle as sociopaths that are just evil people that were just born to exploit other people or are we talking about good people that do bad things?

are we just talking about bad people that just were born to just exploit others and be evil in the The matter is it's both. There are good people that wind up exploiting others, cheating, others, conning others and defrauding others, and let me tell you how they get caught up in that. There's been a lot of research about this. Actually there been a lot of case studies have been surveys in group studies about how people I have spent their whole lives, getting educated, working, regular job being contributing members of society that wind up Indian, con man, scam artist? How did get there. How did they come to that point, when in their lives and want to tell you how they get there? They

get there a little step at a time. They're not sociopaths, they're, not cycle pans,. They weren't born without a moral compass. What they do they start out Jeanne! Something! A little bit, maybe they're getting a bank loan and they think well, You know what we're not going to quite qualify for this. So they just inflate things a little bit. Like maybe they say, okay we got to have some assets here, we're going to have to pledge our cars for a second home, we have or something and it's going to have to be worth a certain amount, not quite there, maybe was one time, but it's not now but was put an old value on it where it was worth. More then than it is now, and so,

just write down that number. This, maybe twenty five thousand dollars more fifty more and thereby there's a friend he trusts, so they don't go into it a whole lot and it flies they get the loan and it's ok really go well, Oh, I was just a stroke of the pen. It worked out, ok and then something else comes up pretty soon and they said How much equity you have in your house needs a well, I could add a little bit to that or you have that. Do you have well, I could mark that down some and then or they know it, they got a whole way of deceit out there and they've borrowed more than they can for they owe more than they can ever service. And so now they have to keep the ball rolling it's going to hit a wall, so they go to

friend and say: hey could you attest to this for me. Can you say you paid this the you bought this for me, can you say you're buying this house from me? Can you do this? and the person that does it doesn't think they're committing some big They just think they're helping out a friend like you know, I'll I'll help you out and then I get roped into it and pretty soon this per so now is defrauding a federal lending institution and If anything ever comes crashing down, they're going to three in a whole lot of hurt, and then the Gov comes along and start saying. You know what you might qualify,

for this relief. We ve had a pandemic here we ve had a downturn. If you did it do an people think well by could just move a little bit. I just my get in there. you know I did my master's thesis way, back in nineteen, seventy six and the title was androgyny and moral judgment. and what we were looking at was whether or not me and women judged. Certain scenarios differently, just based on. whether they were men or women or not I'll. Give you an example. Did it matter. Where There you would steal something from a girl, rod, sale versus a big corporation. A yard, sale, garage, sale. Somebody on the corner was that a big

infraction then. So thing from a large corporation or the IRA, as a big entity good men and women see that differently was their moral up as more sensitive based on sex. We would put people in different Sidra patients like okay, I'm living in subsidized housing. My child wants to go to college. Well, I can't help them go to college unless I take a part time job, but if I take apart job I no longer qualify for subs I housing twenty two. If I take the job, that's enough money to help the child go to college. But then I lose the housing subsidy. So now I can help go to college, so the only way that I can help them.

is, if I take the job, but I don't report it well. Is that an infraction and if they decide to do that to me. Or women judge that differently, there's all kinds of factors that go into whether people consider something crossing the line. So it's not just crooks bad people, that choose to cross the line and here's the big difference. Research has shown us as to whether p will justify something or not. If you approach them and say if you look at this, look at it either. Is it best for the business or is this ethical if they approach it,

Terms what's best for the business, there are much more likely to cross the line. Then, if you to frame around it. Ask yourself if this is ethical, because what might be best for the business might not necessarily be ethical and it matters how they enter into the decision. If you sensitize them to ethics in the very beginning, they're much less likely to cross the line. Then, if you sensitize them to what's best for the bill, so at all has to do with the mindset they use when they go into it.

It also has to do with how you view the people that you're dealing with me give you another example. You take your car in for emissions test, whether or not it's emitting too much contamination Carbon into the environment. Research has shown in a massive survey, If you go in with a big fancy, car Bmw bet leave Mercedes and you fail the test. The tester is not likely to let it snow. I'd. If you go in with a crummy car, that's eight or ten ten years old, which is much more like the one the tester at the gas, mission is likely to drive the chance that they going to let it slide. If you fail the test,

is way higher than if you drive a fancy car, why they relate to you more a you're like me If I fail this car, you got there. Then the drive? If somebody failed my car, I would have nothing to drive so people look added a lot of times based on whether or not it relates to them, or it relates to somebody. They might just have a little bit her resentment for guy just because it's spring doesn't mean you have to spend your time hunting for eggs, the right Europe under. Where puts all your eggs in one basket and keep them there. That's Tommy John's hammock Pouch underwear, when you you're that much more comfy so you can do everything better with dozens of

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For that, just as an example that we tend to treat people differently? If we rely, to them, or we don't remember, said there are different kinds of currency- and that motivates different kinds of con man and fraudsters when I talk about munch, for example, which is now known as factitious disorder or fact just disorder imposed on someone else, when someone tries to get attention and sympathy, but falsifying inducing or exaggerating an illness symptoms, and sabotage medical tests by putting blood in their urine or they harm themselves to create symptoms. It's often difficult to diagnose this, because patient report is, important, so doctors all rely so much on what patients say they might.

Be doing this because they're gonna try to raise money in the community or set up a go fuck me page if they ve got a child with cancer or something but a lot of times there doing it for sympathy from family members or community member. or whatever. So when I say there's a lot of kinds of currency there's aren't always is trying to get your money. They might just be trying to get you to give them. Empathy or they might be trying to get out of work, or they might just be trying to get people to bring them food and take care of them or give them free stuff. You who knows It's not always distant they're trying to con you out of your money. It might just be that their trial. The con you out of your emotions, your sympathies, so just know that there All kinds of cars that are going on in a course with the advent of the internet boy Oh boy, are there lots of those sorts of scams going?

We know that they always tend to target the elderly, because they might be less situationally aware, but, as you hear talk about later, also starting to really con young people who are into these video games where they're trying to get points and bonuses inside video games and they're creating these phony sites where they can buy them. They think, but they we can't all they're trying to do is get those kids to give them their parents, credit card information, vital information that they can then use to go and buy goods and services for themselves using the parent's credit card information. So like there's nowhere safe any more they might be trying to defraud you on the phone one through the mail and we're going to talk about Red flags in just a moment. So

Tell you more about the expert panel of lawyers that I have with me today to talk about fraud and con men. imagine, Tracy, Cisco, Tracy the founder and executive director of the Chicago Justice Project with a man. stir of arts degree in criminal justice from the University of Illinois, Chicago Tracy, has nearly two decades of experience real searching and working within the criminal justice system, and you in he is dead. with a lot of shady characters. Law Mcneil is a legal analyst and professor he's been on Dr Phil. More than once, she's teaches civil procedure. Education Employment discrimination courses- She examines issues of access and equity and employment and education law, with a particular emphasis on issues of access and equity for individuals from traditionally marginalized populations

Steve Greenberg is a criminal defense and civil rights litigator in Chicago he's considered one of the top ten for over thirty years and has been a go to litigator for serious legal cases Xavier hope, is the host of the podcast suit up and the principal owner of the Pope law, firm, a boutique sports and entertainment law firm and to starting his own law firm. Mr Pope worked in Hollywood in the legal departments of leading entertainment companies. Here actually has interesting story, and some history detail with a doctor fail show that dates way back doubled two years will hear some about that so listen in, because we're are going. Dig into the red flags up some of the scams. Some of the ways to spot these things you can share with your kids, with your parents,

and put on your watch list, because I don't want you getting cod scammed and ripped off so guy thanks. So much for being here today, I want to talk about these scams. I've been really guess lightly, on all the fraud a course. A lot of it is internet but it's not all internet a lot of it is ok on elderly people, of course, which has always been the case, but now I'm seeing it starts the focus on these kids and video games, but we're saying these IRS fraud, social security fraud, stealing identities and that or the thing- and I know you guys- have encountered the it's a con man, these scam artist? I've dealt with before, and what I always thought when these guys get caught is you would think that they would be like, oh, my god and kind of head hanging, but

I found them psychologically and interactively to be arrogant and belligerent, I mean, of course you don't expect cycle to be remorseful, but these people when they're caught it's like. Are you kidding me? what's been yells experience with ease scammers and fraud, artist, weather Defending them or prosecuting them what's been experience of these people that run these scams on people Steve weigh in on this, while I I see it all the time in my practice that the people who are charged with fraud cases and it's really sort of the easy way and their brazen so with the internet, they can get information many where there are sites that people can go to on the dark web and buy people's personal information and if a small time fraud another word for taking a little bit of money from a lot of people very good chance, you're not going to get caught because there's just so much projects going on

What I'm now starting to see is the fraud in the covert laws that came down when the governor I said, everyone look. You know your This will give you a business long if you're lost business is a result of covered. You just have to provide some documentation that you had an employee and that your rev, went down and then we'll forgive that long. While I have people that I represent that went out and created fake corporation, and got millions of dollars from the government so when they say that the economy really is chugged along

during covid. So much of that I think we're going to find out is the result of these frauds Laura. What do you think? I agree. I actually had graduate students that were engaging in the ppp loan scandals. They were actually graduate students creating fake LLC's that you have to have the law school training to do so and getting loans that it was just a thing to me that people have this false sense of anonymity, because I feel like they're behind you, know, they're not actively out there doing it they're doing it through the computers through technology. Is it because they're stealing from the government like a large corporation feeling, instead of stealing from somebody personal, is that what's making them think that it doesn't matter Tracy? You know I I, oddly enough ages ago, I went to high school with two fraudsters and they both stole from banks, and they both did it in the same way since SD said stealing small amounts of money from multiple accounts, one got fired, went to another bank around the corner.

It again got caught? They prosecuted them the second, the second one? She did it something it was so much money involved that because she's done it for so many years they actually prosecuted, but what they did is they just fired these people, so they just keep going out to the next place to the next place. The next week Steve Horace. Adding the internet just made this much worse and much easier to do I'll run the country at a moment's known. Well, people think that can't get caught because it's on the internet so create a web of email addresses and they create their own fake identities to do it, Ultimately, there is always that digital footprint that they leave, they just an end. It's it's a faceless crime so far run up to some little old lady on the street, and I steal her purse seeing myself doing that time feeling a little remorseful hey, I this little lady over. I stole her purse. All her stuff was in it. You know she's very upset I'll, do on the internet. It might be. the same little old lady, that's a victim, I don't care not seeing her suffer

What you're saying, though, is true because it's digital there might be a footprint, but I have to tell you these people go on the internet and create these products. These click bait ads ill say Dr Phil Revolutionary Product or Dr Phil, and Robin and there'll be something there that says your CBS Upset over Dr Phil and Robin creating this great product or something people go like. What's that they click on it and they get in there and still say the most powerful words in advertising are free and new, improved, and so little I ok! Here's a free product, Delran, remove all your wrinkles and it's got nothing to do with me got nothing to do with Robin. It says this is free but You have to give us your credit card information in case you want

start buying it, but the first month is free and then you can never cancel because you can find em. You can click the cancel button. They don't respond. seriously. I want to find these people for marketing purposes. They have the best market penetration I've ever. This is ten, of millions of dollars, but poor folks, a lot of times are on fixed income and they start hitting their bank account for seventy eight dollars a month that they can ill afford and they can't get it stopped. Xavier. What's your view on this year doctor these Scams mimic real products, because you talk about that trial period were then you give your credit card number and then you get built after a certain period of time, while many of training services many other products. do this, where you have to give it a number number after period of time, you will be billed of many delivery services. Do that as well. So people are you

to doing some of these activities in terms of engaging in part a perfectly activities, but then these the scammers or maybe using se o in terms of connecting with Dr Phil and then it acting to something, that's fraudulent, so that the hair regeneration stuff. I bought it had your name attached to it is I use it yeah. It was not going to lose your gut that tell you about. It doesn't work damn bit, but we, the scam one time where people actually the phone number for studios, and it says if you want a personal appointment with Dr Phil or Robin call this number I created a phone number and you call the number and they answer it. It says executive producer, Dr Phil. Chihuahua to make an appointment, and they said well, okay, but you have to pay in advance and

they tell him Western Union or whatever and people would fall for it. What really hurt my feelings is? It was like three hundred fifty dollars for an appointment with with Phil or four hundred for an appointment with Robin. I kid you not, and so we actually trace them. Them. They were working out of Houston I flew down there and these were people that would I also do fortune telling and stuff like that, so we Apo appointment to have a fortune telling with them We sent him the money that was the same people and confronted them, this hotel room in Houston, I'm telling you They scattered like a jailbreak, they were going down the hall down stairways in the elevator and I got an elevator with three of them. With a camera crew, it was asleep

We still await her in the world. While two floors were these people, they were just die, but nobody wants to prosecute him. They down in this part of the issue has become so widespread and so commonplace that honestly, our legal system can't keep up with the number of fraudulent cases a literally just last week. My mother showed me a letter. She said it s really not because she's got a scam so many times, and they were telling her that her accounts have been compromised and that she need to apply for this credit reporting system, and they were allegedly say it was a department store account. I call the department store. Corporate office is completely bogus but the fact my mother, seventy and she said you know she's, not sure she can't tell the fake from the real and there's the title insurance. Now I hear the ads on on tv and parental leave on t V, the title, your deed to your house, could be stolen and

for you know, send us and it's some feet and in appraised on elderly bill and it gets advertised on tv. How could the dgo good, get stolen and someone else all so known euros and anyway you insurance for that already using you doctor feel, though, as as as a placeholder for that that puts additional pressure on you check your reputation. Oh my god, you have no idea. They sell Cbd, oil and stuff with my name, Dr Dot Oz and I are doing a product Oprah and I are doing a product and We've sent out hundreds cease and desist letters to these companies, and when we get close shut down, get a new carpet charter go across the street and open up again. It's like stop and ants. You cannot get them shut down that Enough Lack system used, you use, you started this fraudulent company, they use down you open another: there isn't a system in place that prevents people from continue to do so so or what in Chicago since we're Chicago theme today,

zoom court right rights, they had zoom bankcard during everything's on under there were people who were on zoom by bond court and would chat in the chat feature. Do you need a lawyer to represent someone for court today? and the family member would say. Yes, you know, Send me Zelle me whatever it was too on. Fifty hours and I'll represent them for bond court and then in court would come on and and there'd be no, representing them and they would do it and they would get because the bind courts are different and it was untraceable they they would make. You know thousand dollars for doing nothing a bond court yeah I worked in a jury, industry a lifetime ago, and we just got it beat into us all the time if it's too good to be true, it is, and don't be too nice and we ended up having to stop work. People would come in. Want to just buy our box and we usually give it

it was just some young kid or something that want to give something was girlfriend that he bought out of wherever and we had people Trying return engagement rings that they had bought. Are women coming to return? An engagement ring that they got from us in our box, and I just think with with the way technology as as those people times a million, because they just been empowered to do these things. This episode is brought to you by Linkedin with links becoming number one in b to b display advertising in the. U S, you've got a great advantage with their tools. in stand out against your competitors, while nurturing customer relationships and growing your brand scale, your marketing and grow your business with Linkedin advertising as a thank you to their customer for helping them grow three times faster than the competition Linkedin is offering one hundred dollar credit on your next campaign, just go to linkedin dot com marketing How long does it take to tackle a home project with Angie? You could cross it off your list before this ad is over

What you need indoor outdoor repair or redesign and we handle the rest sending a top pro to get it done. You don't have to lift a finger accepted, tap the screen or click the mouse plus Andrea is free to use so bring us your next home project and we'll bring it home, download the app or go to Angie dot com. That's a n g goi dot com to get started. What do you think's going on with these people, like this sherry Piney? You guys have all seen this story. She disappeared from her husband and family on November. Second of twenty sixteen Reportedly she's out jogging a mile from her home in Redding California, and then she reappears three weeks later. She claims

kidnapped by two hispanic women and then four years later in twenty twenty she's charged with it being a scam that she had actually been off with her boyfriend or something now clearly a scam but not after money. I mean there wasn't a big ransom paid and I've always said there are different kinds of currency, Jesse Small at it. Isn't about getting a bunch of money that was about something else,

fame notoriety sympathy, whatever prepay she disappeared for three weeks then reappears psychologically, there's social currency fame fortune is maybe further down the road from them. When these people get caught, should they be prosecuted, should they be jailed because they didn't steal money, but they absorbed resources and all should they be prosecuted. What should happen to him? Tracy am reluctant reluctant to say we. I think we probably way too many people for things, but I think this you know. Obviously we need some

search into what motivates this and then what will stop it right because some of these scammers, I think to some extent. We just won't stop, and if that's the case, then I dunno what else we have but prosecuting them right, because they're just going to keep racking up victims, don't have to put my law. Professor hat on you know, I always encouraged my students to come up with a solution and I think a helpful solution to addressing it is to create a law specifically to address these types of crimes. I inhabit and have different layers. If you, you know, you get one bite at the apple to make a mistake. But when you see these repeat offenders, I do think. Yes, we need to prosecute them. That's how our system is set up, because that's how you deter that type of behavior and the fact that you know someone like doctor fills his brand new work years to build your brand and have some or You know scamming, your fans, I think, is outraged and I think that, because they know there's not that level of accountability. That's why that is they keep chilling issue would have a one free, scam, rule

is that what you have an alternative sentencing rule for people that have knowledge of gotcha, so people keep confusing and all this and again we use as much as people keep confusing whether people should be prosecuted and you have you and I'm a criminal defence lawyer, so what are you going to live? I advocate for people all the time. People should be pressed because, unfortunately, that's the way that you keep order in society Otherwise, there is just a complete lack of respect, but what's the punishment and those are two totally different questions- it's like the saying the question: should people be prosecuted and sugar? The cash mail there, two totally different sites that point c we deduct. If you are introduced to set this deposited partners, talking about someone scamming for cloud the for money and the the level of what you write, a misdemeanor or felony depends on how much money you steal, and so I mean we need, do have a city

the process to how much right do, people steel, we do have stood address that is well well. I think I think one of us that one of the problems here their underlying is that there is also a total lack of the ability to get mental health treatment in the. U S where some of these people who are skimming for cloud probably fall into that Rome, where they, you could have a criminal justice response. That also has the ability to intervene in that way to get them their help or for putting my and I kind of differentiate these people's Gimme for clown. These people using doktor fills likeness to sell cd, because that is probably the fiftieth thing they ve got. So those are like serious long time. Offenders who aren't gonna stop and even the person who doesn't like the criminal justice system like that, smaller those people after be rescued and stealing is stealing is a much easier way to support yourself than working hard. Oh yeah, so people, you know people still they do it and it's a shame because a lot of the scammers his actual said there are some and they're smart. They're sophistic

it'd scams that if they just found the right avenue on a Madison Avenue into the advertising group, you know community, actually make money legitimately. Probably support themselves, really well It's really bothering me is getting super dangerous, because right now scams are selling fake pills on the internet and so many of them are laced with well. There's two ends of the continuum so many of them are laced with fentanyl lethal doses of fentanyl. To the point that you go on Snapchat, and you buy. What you think is actually cotton are actually go down, which is be doing anyway without a prescription, but you can and they'll delay, to your house. It's like postmates or uber, whatever they'll deliver pills to your house. And they're laced with fentanyl. I've had a

so recently with five sets. Appearance on all of their kids had purchased appeal on Snapchat, got it and died, and one of them took a quarter of a pill. One quarter they broke it up, took a quarter of it were dead by morning, and I mean that is is is challenging because you have to have the social media platform to police itself for content. That may be harmful harmful to the users, particularly if they're under age or have you talked to my parents, lamenting the the loss of their their child? That's just that's just a pain. I I just couldn't wouldn't on any one. Then the other end of it is some cancer patients or whatever or buying, feels that they can afford by am on the internet and lay there have nothing in them at all or they ve been stolen from a legitimate store and put into a truck

It got up to one hundred and thirty or one hundred and forty degrees in the summer sitting in the south somewhere deactivated the active ingredients, and so the pill is either degraded, so much that they're getting a percentage of the treatment or no treatment whatsoever, and so they pay twenty five percent of what it would cost at the pharmacy, but they're getting little or treatment and they wind up dying because they think they're getting chemo and they're not. But this is a product of of techno. well gee as much as anything the internet has made it easier to get the news the internet has made it easier to find a date. The inner net has made it easier to to do a scam on PETE I mean all of it is instantaneous. Now something goes through. people's minds. I called him keyboard bullies from we're talking about cyberbullying, because there are certain

Things when you are removed from the personal contact is like road rage, you'll, yell and scream things in your car, and somebody cut you off that you wouldn't say to them. If they're standing next to you in an elevator Right but you're in a car l k, column every name in a book because there's at anonymity and when you're on a keyboard, you don't see Missus Jenkins. Why? sting away because you sold or an inert substance. How do we stop that? I think there are categories of scammers and con and I just interviewed Anna delve E last week that making a man on Netflix I guarantee you. She has no remorse. No idea in her mind that she's done anything wrong whatsoever, because she justifies this by saying: okay, yes, I misrepresented things to the back yard.

Yes, I said I had assets. I didn't have. Yes, I signed false documents, however, but but I believed this was all going to work out, before any of this came due and all would be forgiven. They just fight and I believe she really believed I'm gonna be set. Just success before any of this comes it'll all be paid back and everything will be forgiven a body, but the tinder swindler, the the other documentary where you had this this gentleman, he was using money from one woman to pay another woman to accept it too. the gallivant around the world, and now he's selling

informational was about how to be successful as he is now. How is that any different, though, than a gambler who says the next? The next you know I'm just going to put my my next dollar and it's going to turn around it's going to turn around it's going to drop but yeah, but I'm saying that the finance lawyer, psychology of doing it, preacher one brother has the psychology of doing it. So these people, we're doing these scams if they weren't during these schemes. Maybe you're in denouncing Elsner, it's just it's just that way they they are, and this The easiest way to do it. Because I am an avenue enemy look made of metal. I out scamming with a pencil paper in a ledger. That's what he did was only not having sickness game for a lot of times. They ve tried various mechanisms to scam, other people and, and they. on a mechanism networks in a sought Europe.

Your guess, Anna she'd does not remorseful at all. She feels as if this is potter business model right. If I it until I get caught, I'm going to keep doing it and now she's got more attention. She can make more money in a legitimate way. Now using the scam that she created. So in her mind, it was successful. Isn't that the essence of of really the criminal mind at the end of the day, Dr Phil? And you would you know, I'm sure, you've analyzed this before, but that they I think there is a reason to do it, whether it's a business decision or personal decision and their mind. Someone who's who's, Doing wrong, can always justify and their mind, always going be detached from the process in terms it in and how they in the wet it, the cost is to themselves and the cost of other people's lives. I've seen two categories and you guys tell me what you've encountered

in terms of prosecuting and defending these people, but I've seen two basic categories: one is people that is into it like they start out, and they say: okay, I'm going to fudge these financials so little. Am I they want to know what this assets worth? I'm going to give myself what is the day here. I'm a fluff this up a little bit works, and nobody says anything you know. So what's this building worth and you might think it's worth two hundred thousand and they say to twenty five, and so they take that twenty five extra and they the guy. You know that worked out. Ok and so That's what happened. Nobody was heard. Everything went. Okay, the widest keeps getting bigger and bigger and before you know it they go to with their friends and say: hey. Will you help me out here? Will you say that you Or by in this house, or will you do this? You do that and the free and does it they

they're destabilizing the economy, they think they're helping Steve, so they say, ok I'm your friend I'll. Do it I realise that they just committed fraud when they signed this document to a federal, ending institution. They just think their help in their friend you've gotten sucked into it. So they start out small and before you know it, they've got forty or fifty loans, it's Bernie Madoff. So you ask them didn't you realize that at some point this was going to hit the wall and The answer I found is no. They never actually projected forward and thought the days going to come when this is all come due and hit the wall. They keep thinking going to be one more iteration. One more thing: that's going to get me past this So that's one side that thinks that they just easier and then it is

It's bigger and bigger the longer you chew at the bigger gets then the other. Category is the narcissist that thinks the law just doesn't apply to them that there, And Adele Thee there, the type that thinks I'm so important, I'm so talented, I'm so big that I fly above the rules

I fly above everything I can do what I want it doesn't matter nobody's ever going to hit me, I'm good to go listening to it made me think of the guy at we work right that he just kept growing and he kept lying about it and he didn't have to worry and at some point, even got a Wall Street to approve the I p o. I mean that's how big it got and then it wasn't days away from that. I appeal that it all started collapsing, because people finally started looking behind behind the scam and all of a sudden people realize there's nothing there. I think it's common to see the first example where people think keep thinking the next time I'll stop after the next time, almost like a form of an addiction and they think they're invincible and they and it keeps getting bigger and bigger. They look up and then what I typically hear them say is. I was in too deep at this point. It was obvious to me: people were involved

to turn it around or to stop in. So I still think that, because the internet create such a platform for these types of things to grow expeditiously very quickly, you know we, as a community, have to do more community policing on the end. that meaningful, as I say, see something say something a lot of times. I see scams and I I don't necessarily report every scam that I see and thus someone with low legal training that I have, and I think that we have to be reconditioned to as we do with bullying. If you see something say something, we've seen in several instances, major Dawkins areas that I can be a lot of attention, the most viewed. It seems to capture the attention and disbanded and scripted television.

and so we are rewarding people wars. Gaming in saying, hey, you get your own documentary. Do we you'll get your own Netflix special about your till you get a chance to sell. What have you need to sell and and profits are whereas and then the next person gets a chance to go to staff chat and set the Instagram incidents which are whatever and scam other people as well. We I'm common and we forget that that short for confidence, confidence game because the person comes on with huge confidence, I'm from Texas and so you're back in the eighties. I always had people trying to sell me. Oil deals and command and they have a rolex on, the drive and Lincoln or a Cadillac remained they dress for success. Everything was there the role ex wasn't real. The Cadillac were three, payments behind, and

they're trying to sell me an oil deal in my first question was always how much money you got walkme in your bank than we talk to your banker, us when the show Dallas was on and they talk like they got all my cat all the confidence in the world. People don't ask questions. We give people the benefit of the without asking questions Because we want to believe that people are honest and we want to believe the people were dealing with. We can trust them, but at some point you know some of these scams are. you just shake your head at how people could do it. I am representing someone now and the alleged scam and he was running an end there. There's. A number of these everyone's doing the same thing. Everyone hasn't gotten caught yet retired military who use Navy federal credit cents out in email saying in all this is Navy federal credit. You need to give us information. We've determined that,

It is long Baba and people would get these loans, but the loans would get paid. The checks will get paid to the scam, Now, why is someone taking out a loan and having the check paid to someone else, have to wonder what what is going on in someone's mind where they're getting a solicitation and saw for a law to go to someone else that they don't know what the problem is. So they're going to pay the money back at the point, when you said that your people, we want to believe in people's honesty, but the way we process information, we all make assumptions when we walk in this room. We made assumptions you know when I first saw a saw Xavier. I made assumptions based on his appearance, and so these scammers are very keen on that the products they serve. They make it look like Dr Phil quality when they're putting forth these products, and so I dunno what's so much as I think the scam is the art of it as well.

Meaning its preying on how we process information, how we make assumptions how each you know how we make decisions is confidence, gay rights. What is a criminal defence lawyer? I always think that the biggest scam is that so raises their hand swears to tell the truth in their actually going to tell the truth and people think. Well, then. they swore to tell the truth, because they're are the same people who we think are lying about what originally happened. So they get up there tell the same story there, still lying and and really why that change, if you're, an inherently bad person You know we're just honest person for the twenty four hour and a half early, this honest person, you're going to put it in that just a tad walk in a quorum and raise your end. You know on a bible

some nonreligious personal reason are a Bible. Some are going to make them truth. Where's plenary, we lie. Aplenty wind play a juries dad that don't believe what we like. That's why you does you'd say that event had defended. That's why you tell em, don't take the stand. Because the jury might not believe you, so it's all about the coffin game. The comment are able to win so there to connect with what relates to you. They know they have a profile of We are speaking when they have their information about them. They know a lot about them and they're able to do that. I I had a. I had a client recently call me and walk me through a company saying that she had taken out almost ten credit cards and in in her brain she's, like what would I do and she's taking a prayer pray. on this person. Thinking that something is wrong. This urgency and that this also attached to the car give me your number now give it now. What what are the signs of a way to tell people, because you guys do you see this all the time. From a legal point of view,

What are the signs? Because I always tell people one for example, places like the ever meant the IRS. They don't call you out, they do not call you. My mother was Collins. Coleman said the said. The though called I know this already Murphy said so. The iris called and said I owed twenty three hundred dollars. No, they didn't the iris does not call you. That's the first thing right. If they call and say, hey, listen, they're getting ready to garnish, your bank accounts they're, getting ready to seize all your at no that's not true, they don't call right. That's a big warning sign government agencies. Don't call and demand money over the phone and right now and tell you to go, send a money order that should be a big red flag. There should be like a

maybe flagman on the end of the deck right wavin at you, that's a big red flag. True, absolutely they don't try to arrest you either this up in another client talk to me about her being threatened to be around did. I said if they were going to a rescue they'd, be at your door, they're, not threatening a scam, that's going on where they were the it's it's been going on for for at least a decade. Now, where we'll get a call from a war with the d a you: ve been buying illegal drugs and some of people. You know that the law of averages right some people say I mean any drugs at all, but some people, are either buying illegal drugs or their drugs. Legitimately, but now they're skirt- and you know you have to

This much money is a is a civil penalty or we're going to a rescue. That's been going on for years. Right right, I think the best advice I would give is number one if it looks too good to be true, it's probably true trust. Your instincts, people ignore their instincts and say you know. I knew something was off trust your instincts, and I think it's also important to make sure if they're asking you to transfer your any account numbers, if someone's calling you cold, calling you and asking you for your account number or to transfer funds anywhere, those are huge red flags and again my mother's been scammed, a million times a bank calling allegedly her bank saying someone's they need to lock her account down has been compromised. We need your account number, and so I think those are three major red flags as she would say to look out for- and I think also you the same scammers ask them for their information, asked ways to verify them and when you start asking questions about verifying them and then they will start to back off because they don't want to get there

I say no- want a legitimate email attached to a company that you can actually research and look at birth. Sign that three hurry. Click click as if they a foreign accent, a real, thick foreign. and they say they're from the IRA's. That's probably that's the that's the language they you right here I got the door scammers pressure you to act immediately, I'm just right! Now I get I'm on someone's list for car insurance and how no it's like insurance, even though we got done with the payment, so a car that guy, hotel dinner accident many years ago now is gone but like every six months, where contact my email in mail there just hard after us than the scam, related door old car, that's three or four years ago for years gone from us, but it's hard core and they had just keep. This is

five years now they just keep coming after us for this, and that time is important act. Now, if you are put in business, particularly you're of a vulnerable population like senior citizens that that you're give up personal information right now, the intense pressure on them and what you don't see a lot of senior citizens committing crimes and so in their brain they they want to be able to protect themselves from if they unfortunately did something that that day accidentally. Maybe it was illegal and so that time I mean element pushing you to do something in that moment is one of the biggest elements of was games. Work. That's a big big flag in what worries me is mail fraud. I've seen and I've got examples of 'em letters that they don't look like iron let her head, they ve actually taken the irish letterhead em. put it on letter and set it? It's the irish letterhead live hijacked

it and put it on a letter. So you look at it and go. Go on the website were held at Crs Letterhead. If it's an organization you know, but the promise, the demand or the problem doesn't sound right. Then you've got to get personal contact right. You've got to call somebody and say I got a letter here. Is this a department? Is this a request that you guys would make or whatever and you get stuck in voice jail? but you got if you gotta figure something out I mean this is a multi billion dollar problem. Yes, I think about the extensions that some of the websites may used. It looks like the or as it's our as dot another extension, not dove it's it's is look alike website that may be able fishing. Your information is well what about these debt collection schemes with these people call in the say you, oh buddy, you pay us

this we're going to forgive that because they have somehow got, in the hold of some these numbers they ve hacked in they ve bought something, and they know what people, oh, how to peopled protect themselves from that, what do you recommend people do when they get? Somebody called, Saying you owe two thousand pay us five hundred will wipe your data. The federal trade commission allows for a of individuals to get one free copy, their their their credit report. So you you want be able to get that, and then you want to call those credit agencies and get a full copy of your credit report. Walk yourself through it, see what's on there and find that the the verify the accuracy and call the different, companies that are there to verify the debt. I mean that's important, because there are rules that protect consumers and etiquette. If someone calls and says you know, hey will forgive your your five thousand dollars for a thousand dollars every year to pass the initial shock of its hands too good to be true, as as she said, then not

then I think you want to call the actual mean neither you owe the debt to just all. People have to do to prevent getting scammed when they get call and say, give me your number. Let me call you back I'll call you back in five minutes. Do your homework you're in Mexico reveals that, because a lot of times before each your credit report there is it like a thirty day or sixty day window, and so it may not show up in it might be legit, and so I think, is important. Go straight to the source. It's always gonna, be my advice, any client, you go straight to the source. If it's a certain department store call that department store they'll say this is the credit Euro are the credit collection company that we use and you call them directly. What are the ones I've seen recently? That was shocking maybe we had a couple on the show. Is the parent slash, grandparent, scam, you talk about lazy scammers, but they get the number how they get it. I don't know,

they get the number and they call up and say grandma do you know who this is like it's. playing the game and they say well as Karen Character Carol? Yes, all they now. They know, she's got it about an aim Carol, then she says I'm in so much trouble. I've got to have five hundred allergies I'm going to go to jail. Please don't tell mom, can you send me five hundred where's by western union. Please don't tell my parents, they'll, kill me honest to God. This is going like wildfire, And a couple that we had on someone all them got the daughter's name and said We have your daughter and she couldn't reach the husband and They were demanding ten thousand dollars right now or they're going to kill,

daughter- and she couldn't reach the husband he was on a flight. Fortunately, she contacted a friend who said no whoa wait a minute wait a minute. They actually got the daughter out of class at school and verified that she was a hey, but they wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't paying off. If it's one out of a hundred times, then you got ten thousand dollars and they're running these on phone by if you're, making five hundred dollars a day doing it you,

one person to take five hundred dollars a day five day work week, that's you're, making six figures now once again, they're playing an urgency. They are playing on people's fears and things that are close and personal to them and maximizing that to be able to gain confidence. In that moment that is legitimate and then transferring that into to the scams that they are doing on people. I think we're saying it real clear. You've got to talk to the source you can't give in to the pressure, because time pressure is what's getting people to pull the trigger right. Exactly that's the down pressure. It's it's you must do this now it is, and it doesn't matter what the act is: pay this money get this person free. Do this do that it is right now act immediately because they know that if that is, that call is done with they move on to the next call, but they will try to maximize the urgency that moment as much as possible. Can I cells area there maximizing it because Exuviae they want to make

the she don't call your daughter or your son exactly right or yours. Aber or your friend who's niche in to to to verify the legitimacy of it. So that's also part of the scam before they. You know terms of their credibility being revised ranger look at anything with it. They're always praying on the urgency. You go to buy a car in the dealership, no nose once you walk out. You'll, probably know I buy the car you go to buy a timeshare, go to a timeshare sales thing and they all the pressure on end and because they know you're gonna call up later and say I want the dungeon. So this is no If they're there, you got strike when, when the iron, it's a different form of sales, I mean any type of sales. Training people have one and they have multiple rebuttals until it gets the end when they're gone scams are working same way of the things that I am stunned by are these romance scams. at an eye jerry. We do the cat fishes about these people, and I thought

I had seen it all. Until recently, I had a woman on that was convinced that this was the love of her life. Two years never met him. Never done a facetime with him, hadn't done a phone call with him. It was all text and she had sent him about three hundred thousand hours. I had her on the show he had stolen these pictures from somebody. She only had six pictures. And he was sending her all these love letters and stuff, like that. I found the guy whose pictures were stolen had him on satellite, so she could see the real person that I'm so sorry, that's not me. I had my picture stolen Did you see the guy all these documents he had Sandy was stuck in Africa and construction site?

robbed on the way the airport excuse after excuse after excuse, she said. Oh, my god, I feel so stupid. She left the show the guy start. Into again. She sold her house and sent him the money. after the show after I introduced him on satellite, that it wasn't him and she sold her house and soon the money to come meet her. He didn't show. She came back on. show still believing he was real. I bought the real guy in from North Carolina, she only had six pictures. We brought the six shirts. He was in the pictures, then it showed him and the six shirts and let her meet him in person. And she now swears. She totally believes at this time but here's this woman at work thirty years gave him

Germany sold her house game. All the money has nowhere to live totally broke, but that that sound, That sounds like it started out as a scam and it and there might be measures that the chair If you had a ride and she knew it wasn't. You know real. The key is romance The key is romance because the this centre of romance people want this fairy tale life and the person that's on the rogue romance scam, they're utilizing these fancies despair, a fantasy and taking advantage of that the person is is, is conjuring there. My all these different scenarios and even when they are presented with the fact that it is true with are doing is going along. This is part of the romance. The you're the entry all wow now Doktor Feel Phil is involved even brought another guy with pictures. This is all points

ensue. The element of excitement as with romance, and also they always promise. When I come, I'm coming with millions, it's right about that got millions, but I need your money to get the night as right against listen, I'm stuck here. I just have to pay the tax. I have to pay the levy. I have to do this or that and then I'm gonna come with ten million dollars on thirty years younger than you and I'm just crazy in love with you, I'm gonna take care of the rest of my life. It's interesting of ass. These guys they use this broken English in their text because her from Nigeria.

They say they're from Omaha, and they say I love you like Sun, Moon, the Reverend Sun Moon, yeah you're. My everything is just broken English, as a I've talked to some of these scammers and I've said, you've got grammar check and spell check just like we do. Why do you not do that, and they said? Oh, that's screening device. If they're willing to overlook that, we know we have a life, one, which makes sense, and just as the only female at the table they are selling fantasies and just as women. You know we are taught by society the fairy tales we see a princess, we see a castle and so that romanticizing, whatever relationship they are offering us it is very appealing, is very enticing. So when you find someone, that's longing to be loved, to be quite honest, it it from the outside. Looking in, we do look crazy or not crazy. I don't like to say where we look unreasonable right like why. Why can you see the obvious? They can't even text in English, but that

longing to be loved and to be cared for as their promising. It's part of how we're conditioned as women. Listen to those who really love you listen. Those you know, our rand, you, oh god, as this is so insightful have? all of this. In power round the table Talkin about this is invaluable to my listeners and also thank you for it. on the show. Today I thought we really talked about that in depth. I thought it was balanced, intelligent and I'm an old white guy. Talk but try to be very balanced and give a very worthy of empathy. Eddic, I thought was well serious bit epithet. It like you got no matter how come back another time. Thank you. Please help us by really appreciated. Thank you

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