This episode is brought to you by staples you're busy running your business. So it's time to let you in on a secret. You can were you shop at staples yeah, it's true there. The best kept secret and shipping staples can keep her business going from. shipping services to supplies and are even open early and late seven days a week, so stupid apples and get twenty five percent of gps express shipping services in store. Only exclusions apply in december thirty first, more details. Visit staples connect, dot, com, slash shipping over Joshua went from the most popular professor at princeton to a pariah? You agree with what joshua cats had to say or not? How is it that he doesn't have a right to say it I have a welcome back to fill in the blanks. My guest today has a very interesting background. His

and is involved in something that I think is going to be very Interesting to you as well, her name is so they lucia goal fees, a senior research assistant at princeton, James madison programme in america. Ideals and institutions a phd canada. In classics? At the university of rigid native new yorker, so they studied classics at princeton. Before going to cambridge for her, She's in philosophy, and now her phd this a smart individual. So they earned her bachelor barge degree in classics from princeton in twenty seventeen Alongside her academic career she's been an editorial in turn at the new criterion to day work talking about free speech, the effects of cancel culture, and a whole lot more, which will get into so so they welcome thank you so much it's great to be here. Well, I have been

thing to a lot of what you have had to say. There have been some things available with meda Is that, where online with James madison group that you spoke at. Along with some others, I've listened to it. I actually had it transcribed and went back through and listened everything that you had to say this. was all brought about by the fact that, you're now married to professor joshua cats, correct. That is correct. Cancelled. Professor Joshua TAT well currently, perhaps cancelling professor joshua, I have to say I've been shaking my head about this every since I've been reading about it listening to it, and learning about it. Thank you. So let me just let you tell the story uninterrupted and beginning. First off, you been met,

two. Joshua says: win July: seventeen twenty twenty one so we are coming up on our first anniversary. We were married in the middle of a lot of this insanity. We ve been dealing with. Let's talk about them Let me tell people who joshua cats is by the way. A non resident fellow at the american enterprise institute focuses on higher education, language, culture, the classic tradition and humanities broadly defined, a linguist by training, a classicist by profession and a comparative philologist at heart, doktor cats has written widely on the languages, literature, cultures of the ancient. Many evil and modern world. In addition, the two co edited books and many dozens of articles-

and reviews on classics linguistics. This is a very dedicated academician. He was a professor at princeton university, in fact, he was the coach and professor in humanities, professor of classic, and a faculty associate of james mass and programme Eric and ideals and institutions and a tenured professor. So this is a very accomplished individual. He held to be a linguistic from yale university of oxford, harvard aegis a highly educated distinguished professor and academician, you've, been married to him for about a year. How did y'all meet, junior high school applying for college, I sat on classes in a bunch of different universities, including princeton

and I had been introduced to joshua by another professor at princeton, and I was told you have to take a class with Joshua Katz he's the best teacher there. So I sat in on a class and it was mesmerizing. I had never seen a classroom like his if the students just adored him and- and I basically decided I wanted to go to princeton after sitting in on that class, I was then his student. I took a freshman seminar in egyptology and hieroglyphs with him, and I took a course on the greek poet hesiod during my junior year european stand with him, but there is absolutely nothing romantic between us. When I was a student, then graduated, and things eventually changed between us. He was on sabbatical and uk. While I was doing an unfair in the uk and the us things things changed between us.

And here we are married today at this point- He is no longer a professor at princeton university. Tell us that story so. This is a long, complicated story. Innocent it begins, I July fourth went it. to him and you'll. Remember what the world was like the summer of twenty twenty. There is a lot of unrest and fusion and reckoning going on and among the things going on was, demand, letters being issued by students and faculty at universities around the country. This was after George floyd, exactly after George floyd and these students at Princeton had issued a long list of demands to the university in the name of anti racism

and shortly thereafter be faculty. Members at princeton issued a long list of demands in the name of anti racism these demands were signed by hundreds of joshua's colleagues, Joshua couldn't really believe that his call said signed on to a letter that looked like this, so July, eighth, twenty twenty. He wrote a response and he called it his own declaration of independence and he said that he agreed with some of their demands, such as summer, move in allowances for new faculty members rewarding service done by faculty members and expand. sure of an undergraduate fellowship programme for that specifically are encouraged under represented minorities to pursue phds combat. Then he vociferously disagreed with others of their demands and thinking

Some were immoral or I discriminatory summer, even in violation of the title. Seven and those were things like additional pay and perks, fur faculty of color or creating a group that could investigate racist research and publicly by faculty members, and so he disagreed strongly with those particular demands. While also, and he thought in a pretty mild, mannered way You know saying some of these things are good and some of them were bad. Now we are pretty certain that this would have caused firestorm noah, the matter. What? But the real touch point was the fact that he referred to a long defunct student group called the black justice league as a small local terrorist organisation that made life miserable for the many, including

many black students who disagreed with its demands. That particular phrase was picked up. The media went crazy. Twitter went crazy students, prince in one crazy again, it's important remember. He was not talking about current students. He was talking about alumni several years out of college. At this point I who had been members of this group that used to go around targeting I'm and harassing students on campus and assessed, Lee black students who disagreed with them, but that line, as I say, people picked up, they attacked him. and overnight joshua went from the most popular professor at princeton to a pariah, and it really was What night and as I said you know when I arrived at princeton, everybody said you have to take a class with joshua cats. You'd be most legendary professor here and overnight. Nobody would speak to him

and thus began the long saga that has been the last two years for us. within days and his colleagues had issued letters denouncing him, but they had that they had posted statements. Official statements on the official classics department website, the president of Princeton personally denounced joshua's characterization of the black justice, link and his friends stop speaking to him and then meanwhile, unbeknown to us, I'm student reporters at the daily prince stony in began digging into his personal life, and this was literally days with it

if this happening and they uncovered the fact that he'd had a consensual relationship with a student in the mid two thousand. So over fifteen years ago, after eight months of doing their investigative reporting, they published an article in february of two thousand and twenty one, and this, of course, re ignited. The firestorm with everyone calling for joshua's head and the university said that joshua had to issue

his statement in response to the article or they would issue one for him and the gist of the statement that he ended up issuing was that, yes, he had had a consensual relationship in the mid two. Thousands and he'd already been punished for it, which is true, and this was a relationship that had been brought to the attention of the university in the fall of two thousand and seventeen, and he had immediately confessed to it and had been sentenced to a year. Long suspension had taken a year, long suspension without hesitation, but that didn't matter you know to to too many at princeton and macadamia? They said, while your long suspension is insufficient, and so eventually a second investigation was launched and

the result of that at the end of this long to your saga was that joshua windsor fired at the end of that this last squire expenditure is offering some great perks for expenditure, rewards members this holiday season. Putting a virtual cooking event with bravoes topshop alumni Jen carol on December. Fourteen she'll teach you a bunch of tips and tricks for the holidays and you even get a chance to interact and ask your own questions. It's free and easy to joy and download the extent of the app and explore your rewards today Restrictions apply not available in all areas. Limited events, openings, full programme, information available at obscenity, dot, com, slash rewards, this episode has brought you buy staples, you're busy running your business. So it's time to let you in on a secret, you can Were you shop at stables, yeah, it's true there. The best kept secret and shipping stables can keep her business going from being services to supplies and the even open, early and late seven days a week, so ship

apples and get twenty five percent off you bs express shipping services in store. Only exclusions apply in December thirty. First, more details, visit, staples connect, dot, slashing ok, willoughby, ask a few questions here two thousand six hundred relationship, a consensual relationship with a student, and this was reported in fall of twenty seventeen correct it was investigated and he was given. the one year suspension without pay and then he was reinstated in the act make here. Twenty nineteen correct. Ok, so this happened in oh say. Eleven years later, it came to the universities attention they jus decayed. This gave him a year suspension without pay, then apparently determine That was not a threat to students and

turned him to the classroom. Absolutely ok, then, so in twenty nineteen, twenty twenty, Twenty twenty one, he resigned, his teaching that correct, although he was but while the second investigation was going on, he was placed on paid administrative leave, but he was not teaching during the twenty twenty one school year, but in twenty nineteen and when twenty he was teaching nineteen and twenty. He was teaching, ok yeah. Then he made the statements in an article, the declaration for independence by princeton, professor yeah, and he did that in twenty twenty correct That's when all hell broke loose correct, so they started investigating.

A complaint that had already been adjudicated. That is correct. We called double jeopardy, be there as it may. This is a university policy. This, isn't a tidal nine violation that was a criminal violation or act so no criminality here, no title nine here now and no one has ever accused enough harassment or anything like that business. It's entirely up. All of it all comes down to a consensual relationship, an undergraduate at a time when I should say consensual relationships with undergraduates were permitted unless the student was gore student at that time, and in this case the student was his student through didn't object. He didn't appeal. He didn't resist,

and so what he wrote at the time had to do with this petition. To do These certain things with black faculty members correct yes, and he voiced his opinion. think! That's right! I don't think that's fair and he referred to them. As a small local terrorist organization sounds was referring to a group of people to a group of alumni that that was set. from the people who wrote the letter right, he was real ring to the small group of alarm nigh? He said they created problems for students and he said it was picked up when president eyes Gruber wrote his letter. He in fact quoted that, but he didn't include

Entire quote, as I understand he took out the part about also created a lot of problems for black students, Yes, I believe that is true in his initial statement What you may be thinking of, though, is that I am a fall of twenty twenty one as part of mandatory, freshmen orientation for new students at princeton. I'm all students were forced to watch a video on princeton history with racism and as part of this mandatory viewing. They were also back dead to look at me, an official university website, I'm be known and be heard web site, which goes through. It presents a gallery of princeton racist passed. What they consider to be princeton races, past

towards the end of this gallery is a little section on professor joshua cats and he is presented as the latest instances nation of Princeton long history we have races, you know, put up against all sorts of unsavory characters from the past and and he and they take his quotation from his piece, this declaration of independence and they doctor the quotation that they deliberately doctor the quotation. So they remove from the quotation the phrase, including the many black students, so the original quotation ran a small of the justice league with the small local torrent terrorist organization that made life miserable for the many, including the many black students who disagreed with its demands or something like that and they removed, including the many black students- and this is clearly a deliberate misquotation on their part-

I began. This was mandatory, viewing for the entire fashion and class. He was part of freshmen orientation. This story was part of it correct? Yes, well, So then you have to look at everything, that's gone on in the last year and you have to say well. Was this really a good? How could he possibly have had the experience to due process in his second investigation when the university is meanwhile defaming him as a racist to the entire freshman class makes you so when they re investigated. This complaint worthy New allegations have been made. Yes, in twenty eighteen or twenty seventeen it be. The relationship had been brought to the attention of the university by an anonymous third party, or rather anonymous to Us- I assume not anonymous to the university, but it was not.

so yet the woman- and it was not joshua. Obviously, the university repeatedly approached the woman in question and asked her if she would like to participate in their investigation and she repeatedly declined. She did not want anything to do with the investigation. In fact, she said repeatedly to joshua because they they had remained in touch periodically over the years and she said specifically to him.

tat. She wanted to maintain her privacy. She felt like the whole investigation was a violation of her privacy and she wanted nothing to do with that fast forward to twenty twenty one. The daily prince estonian report comes out simultaneously to this. The woman finds out that he's engaged to marry me and she decides to come forward, and so she then issued her own complains in view early spring like us over time. Twenty one and not was what launched the second investigation boom boom. As far as the complaint concerning his relationship with this woman, it had been do decayed. He had served whatever consequences they had assigned to him. He had been

and stated was back in a classroom in nineteen and twenty. Then he made these statements This digging goes in to what had happened before the cases open real judah created, and that was the reason there was given for him being fired exactly here and they you know they concocted new reasons to fire him. You know, of course, with with another person now participating in the investigation. There were details that came out that you know that they had not been aware of before, but you know that's not how due process works. She had declined to participate in the past and she had her chance to tell her side of the story. She chose not to take it and she only decided to do so yet to come forward again. In the light of a very complicated does string of events. Joshua had no problem, confessing immediate,

due to the relationship in the twenty eighteen when he, when he was investigated in the first place, and but this time around, the allegations against him were simply untrue, and so we fought back hard and and the university seemed completely uninterested in every and every piece of evidence he provided to to counter the narrative, as it was presented by the woman, and her friends and twenty twenty one will here's my question, ignoring the merits of what the petition ass to do what demands. However, you want to describe bit about me, or sabbatical for black de members. Air pay. The same spaces for students on campus. Whatever way,

their people listening this agree with that. I don't agree with that. One of them things that I ran across. I started investigating this. Was president gruber of Princeton head spoken out a lot about princeton being kind of a bastion for free speech. That's correct! Yes, he takes pride in us and has actually been acknowledged. as someone that talks about This allowed in holes standard there? So whether you agree with what joshua cats had to say or not? How is it that he doesn't have a right to say it

it'd be the counter argument to that. If he did have the right to say it, and he did, he did say it, and these days cancel culture doesn't work the way you might expect it to right. So it's not as simple as you said this so you're going to be fired for saying this right. They they do that they know they can't do that, so instead they find other pretexts for for punishing people. and this has happened it places around the country you know are. Our lawyer represents a lot and professors and youth in this situation, and you wouldn't be steve. How often when universities can't punish you for that for your speech, they find other ways to punish you, and most people have a skeleton in their closet and which is probably why most people aren't willing to speak up at the moment when they do have the controversial points of view, but

You know there. There are lots of people on prince campus. We know many of them who have those skeletons and prince in doesn't go around investigating. Then, there's only one reason why Joshua has been re investigated and ultimately fired, and that is because he spoke in twenty twenty. I think it's it's as certain as it can be that none of this would have happened. Were it not, for his side is article in July of twenty twenty come one shop all at the J c, penny friends and family sail through wednesday use your thirty percent off coupon inside the juicy p up and shine on with up to sixty percent of diamond solid terrorism, studs plus get carried away with up to seventy percent of luggage, from samsonite american tourists, sky weight and more anyone shops. Everyone saves, we got your holiday.

Jc penney offers valid on select items through twelve seven offers reflect after coupon savings exclusions, apply, see, store, gcp dot com for details check out. I've got a secret with robin mcgraw, with Eric beauty bar known as the flourish to the stars and king of roses designing opulent arrangements for allister's, elite fashion houses and luminaries around the world. I robbed and Eric talk about some of his most over the top celebrity flower arrangements and his experience with grabbing analyzed, beautiful opportunities that you don't want to miss. This be sure to subscribe, follow and listen to apple podcast, spun- five or how ever your listening now he wrote an article in may of twenty twenty two and the wall street journal the article was entitled Princeton fed me too, the council culture mob may twenty.

for twenty twenty two, a wall street journal and one of the things he said is nearly two years ago. I wrote in these pages I survive cancellation at princeton. I was wrong the university where I taught for nearly a quarter of a century and which promoted me too. The tenured ranks in two thousand six. As revoked my tenure and dismiss me, Whoever you are and what Your release. This should terrify you The issues around my termination are uneasy. To summarize what is nearly impossible to deny, though princeton denial is that I have been subjected to cultural double jeopardy with a universally ree litigating long past offence, He goes on to say he made a grave mistake admitted the mistake as soon as he was investigate. ford and served his time without complaint.

As for better or worse, I was the first on campus to articulate some of these opinions publicly criticising a number of antiracist demands. He put setting quote antiracist, some of them clear. Lee racist an illegal the it's got a lot of national attention. The new york times summed it up pretty. Well shame on you referring to princeton the disgraceful firing of joshua t cats, I think it pretty transparent. What happened here Is this something that his colleagues have moved their position on, or is he still treated as a pariah well. You know we wouldn't know, because most of them won't speak to us and they they haven't spoken to him since July. Twenty twenty, as you know, as I do thing he was you wouldn't believe me

how popular she once this is. But the thing about Josh is the fact that he spoke up in July of twenty twenty was really you out of character for him, He has been a library rat, his entire life and if there was one thing I didn't like about him actually, as I thought he was to go, on get along and I wanted him to it. I kept pushing. I say again it: why did you ever speak up in faculty meetings when you disagree with the crazy things being? That means that all we now whatever and he was just a nice guy everybody liked him and I think it's actually because he's such a nice guy that he's been a treated so terribly. You know there. There are certain professors on campus that people expect to say controversial things and those people tend not to be cancelled because they, you know you, you don't expect that you're going to get would like that to apologize. But when Joshua's spoke up, everyone thought he was. They could get him to apologize

the number one rule, though of cancel culture, is, do not apologize, even if you do feel sorry for what you said. Don't apologize, because any apology you make will be used against you and that's been evidence most read recently in the Ilya shapiro case. If you've been following that we can, we can talk about that as well, but you know I think his colleagues could not believe that mild, mannered, nice Joshua Katz had spoken up as he did and they just stopped speaking to him, and so you know there is exactly one current member of his department who has spoken to us in the last two years and and again all of this was about the the peace and quiet. Let none of this was about the consensual relationship. I mean most of his colleagues knew about the consensual relationship. didn't necessarily seem to have a problem with that. Their problem was with his that his his words on an anti racism that was the one article in the cooler correct, and so I mean it out. We can

count on two hands. The number of colleagues at Princeton who speak to us will goodwood jingling confirmed for estonia for free space, reportedly said if a faculty member students says something that contradicts our orthodoxy. We will get you have now for what you said and by twisting your language by using the extensive resources university to shame you before the student body and by and by? forgetting your personal life for years passed here saying that he saying that's what the message is from princeton by- start. What has happened here absolutely I won't be kind of we're. Giggling say anything. This is the message that stan ascending by their actions, and it is the message, unfortunately, in that

why you know that there are a lot of free speech, advocacy groups popping up including print studios for free speech, which I am on the board of as well, and- and you know it, those are important groups because they for one thing, you know they they they get alumni to speak up. More and universities need to be hearing from. Their alumni and they need to, they need to to to feel the pain of what they're doing and with their annual giving and the money speaks louder than any tweet will also. I think these free speech groups are doing the lord's work on campus, because they're they're, showing students that their alumni, who will support them. If, if this, if a student says something out of line with the orthodoxy on campus, then you know I I, since I am now back at princeton as a postdoc, I have some interaction with the the students on campus and kept the

climate has changed a lot since I graduated and it's difficult to overstate how much it has changed. Since I graduated something you said in the James madison, I think it was an actual meeting that was held. You said don't give up on princeton, yet use hold out hope that there's some way to find that compass again, I want to believe tat, I loved princeton. To me it was the most magical place. I had the most magical for years. I have always held various control points. You know, for the most part, conservative, but not entirely, so I'm I'm hard to pin down politically, but why never felt any hostility from my peers or my professors of administration. When I was a student. On the contrary, I felt celebrated I'm an appreciated and all of that has changed and the fight.

years since I graduated an, and so you know I loved princeton so much and I don't want to see it down I, also, though I dont know what the alternative is, and there are a lot of us alumni working behind the scenes to try to rescue the place do I think, as as I sat on that panel, you know I resist the rhetoric of burning the place down in large part, because that's the rhetoric of the other side. There are a lot of people on the other side of this issue who are saying. Oh well, Princeton is irredeemably systemically racist and so we should tear the place down. In fact, that was part of the rhetoric used in the freshman orientation, video that that also defamed joshua.

Well, you know I I resist that rhetoric. I don't want to see princeton torn down. I believe in institutions like princeton. I think institutions are the one thing that you know: trends and the the follies of any given time or generation, and so it out I don't want to see Princeton destroyed, but I also think we have to hold it to the fire of its ever going to wear. If it's not gonna burn down, we have to hold it to the fire well, is this an institutional failure? Or is this a small group of very loud activists that driving an agenda there? I know that oftentimes, we get a group with agenda that intimidates and is loud, but then I read what. Ice gruber has written and said ass. He could to the mob or is this something that really

permeates the value system of the faculties, administration at the university. I think it's hard to say there's such a climate of fear on campus right now, but no one will give you an honest answer to that question. Do you know when hundreds of joshua's colleagues signed that letter of demands in the name of anti racism in July of two thousand and twenty, and at the time we didn't know how many of them actually believed it? How many of them we're just trying to be nice and wanted to. You know sign onto the letter as a sign of solidarity and allyship, and you know we thought okay, it's Paul

of all that sometimes even read the letter, but by the person who is set in the Senate best actually is is marked power line. He wrote a peace and not brought for a journal called american great as that about Joshua's case, and he talked about the kind of character that succeeds in academia. Right and most professor is tend to be helpful, who are extremely smart of youth, have been used to succeeding their whole lives, but also succeed by not really ruffling too many fathers and by trying to get along with people they depend on peer review. They depend on pure evaluations for everything that they'd accomplish, I'm so they need their peers support, and so there unlikely tis to say or do anything that is deemed in our

popular controversial and I think he hit the nail on the head with that. I'm. So when you look at the princeton faculty right now, you think ok well. How many of you actually believe me now agree with all of the demands that have been issued agree with all the changes happening on campus, like, for instance, Joshua's own department eliminated the requirements for undergraduate majors and classics to take even a single semester of latin, or which is sort of a surprising thing, very classics: department to do haven't people actually agree with these? These things? How many of these people actually believe that joshua tat is a horrible racist, predator? ever and how many of them are just keeping their heads down because they're afraid, because they re just wanted,

stay in the library and do their research and you know, publish a book and not you know. This is the other thing right when when when you're cancelled, like joshua has been it's not just that you lose your job, it's that your research as a as a scholar becomes unsaleable so his life's work and joshua is a brilliant linguist who's written on. So many things, not just you know classical linguistics he's also. He got to start doing native american linguistics. So he's he's written about languages all over the world and and he's now is this. All of this research is fundamentally untouchable and no one will cite him put him in a footnote ever again, and you know his his advisees have purged his name from their acknowledgments. So if you're, if you're a scholar who cares mostly just about contributing knowledge- and you know, doing your little niece work

Why would you want to stick your neck out with them and you know get involved in any of this stuff and we hear constantly from tenured professors who say all I and I agree with you. I wish I could say so But I just can't you think god, your tenure, professor, you have all the protection in the world, but not you you have all the projected in the world. It was either unless you gotta skeleton your closet. Globally, support. How can you have a moral compass of everything is, If, if you look at everything sable, I'm gonna put me self in harm's way, so I'm not going to speak the truth. I'm not gonna say what I really think who is professor dental paddle parameter? Yeah then open up, so he graduated from princeton n. I believe two thousand and six, He has an amazing life story. He.

Was an illegal immigrant to america from the dominican republic. He grew up in a homeless, shelter in new york city. He was discovered by a volunteer and the homeless shelter for his right mind he was reading some big book at the volunteer was impressed. at the volunteer ended up. I getting him into collegiate, which is the top ways school new york. If not the country and from there and then I went to princeton oxford Stanford and now he is back as a professor of classics and joshua's arbiter. Joshua's former department at princeton will on june forty three black thought tweeted the following, but was curves. In fact, racist. Hardly one of us

persecutors a colleague, professor Daniel, petty parameter, who happens to be black, wrote in his twenty sixteen memoir undocumented about his under. experience at princeton when cats had been his mentor and advocate cats wasn't fired for racism, but on a pretext. He was fired for re investigation of a case of sexual misbehavior, conceptually sleeping with an undergrad for which he had been in investigated and punished with a year's unpaid leave in twenty eighteen, so double jeopardy joshua wise Daniels, professor and mentor when dental was you didn't dare now in his memoirs, describes how joshua was the first person at Princeton that he confided in about his undocumented status,

and this was because general, like hundreds, if not thousands of princeton students over the years have come to joshua in their time of need. Joshua has been there to support. You know: students going to mental health crises, he council the student through an unplanned pregnancy and he literally directly intervened to save two students from suicide and one called him from a hotel room and joshua was able to rescue him. I mean this Josh was just been that kind of person he's not just. He has never been just a a professor standing at a chalkboard. He has been a real mentor and and support system for students who needed it, and one of those students was jenelle who confided in joshua about

is undocumented status and joshua. Then work to make sure he went to speak to the administration and got a lawyer and- and you know the rest is history- he was able to become an american citizen and is now a professor of classics at princeton and joshua was his great advocate and supporter through much of that. Through much of that journey In July, twenty twenty one joshua published his peace and collect dan L then spoke about how Joshua's quote flagrant racism speaks for itself, so in the same guy that Joshua hoped that citizens citizenship was now accusing joshua after all these years of of being

racist and yet I was one of many people who speak to Joshua data was one of the authors of the original faculty letter with all of those demands in july of twenty twenty so Joshua Dan L have ended up on on opposite sides of of by the guest the culture wars, as it were. Am dental and I have had our own spots as well. In the summer of two thousand and seventeen, I published a piece of the new criterion talking about western civilization and dental penned, a response to my piece and then I ended up popping a response to his, and there was What's changed back and forth there, as well as the president, has positioned himself as the bee spokesperson for burning down the field of classics and burning down.

princeton. He loves you loved that rhetoric of burning things down. Two houses affected you well. Thank you doctor. It's been awhile right. It's been a crazy two years. You know, I I'm really tough then scanned- and I also hope I I of the fortune of for having been popular in the way the joshua was. I think I've been pretty out spoken about my political beliefs, whatever they may be. My whole life and, as you mentioned at the top of a native new yorker and growing up is even somewhat conservative in new york means you kind of growth. Extend pretty quickly in

a lot of ways I feel like I was made for this moment and I don't feel you know. I think I've been able to handle it pretty well and the hard part is just seeing what it's done to Joshua and- and you know overnight, the the man I love became a shell of his former self, and you know his all of his friends just stop talking to him and he really didn't know how to handle that. I mean he expected pushback, we expected something, but he didn't expect but these people would just never say a word to them again, especially in I've written about this. But you know we had sent out our our wedding, save the dates days before the call at peace, and that was one of joshua's. Colleagues was not only invite the wedding, he was considering asking her to

be in the wedding. As you know, a groom's made or something like that and- and she said nothing for weeks and then she finally wrote a short little message that you know expressed her disappointment in him and they haven't spoken since. So that's it's it's! It's just been. It's been the steady stream of of nasty tweets and his life's work being destroyed when they say you know, if you're once you're canceled, professor, no one will publish you in fact the society for classical studies, which is the major organization to which all professional classicists to meet in the united states belong. The society for classical studies, re tweeted, an article the other day that advocates for never publishing anything by joshua. Ever again. Do you know

This is the kind of climate written and fortunately, joshua, stay software that sort of necessary for his vanity. I see and what our cause I actually I feed off of the anger. Unfortunately, but he doing with this. What does he do with this time? how is he handling it emotionally, especially since the second investigation began? It's felt like we've had this sort of damocles over our heads Every day we were just waiting for the other should drop, it was zero is there going to be a letter from the university demanding that he. It, oh god, submit to another interview, another another interrogation. For another hour, many hours and universe just non stop, and there was always the fear and other media store, or something like that at least two. Now that he's been fired, there's a sensitive finality and almost even some freedom. You know nothing was

worse than the waiting and the worrying about how this was all going to play out- and you know, we've been extremely gratified by the the media response, because you know it's it's a messy case and obviously joshua does really regret. Having a consensual relationship with a student and- and that's embarrassing, to have your personal life air to the world like that. So we were terrified of how this is all gonna play out, but in a blessedly I think people really do understand. What's going on here, that's better at a huge help, but the ivy me it's, I wouldn't well. I would say I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemies. I do if I myself experiencing schadenfreude of these days when people who financed either joshua that council them

I was, but no, I I don't wish this on anybody. Actually, I think it's just awful to go through something like this and joshua does not have particularly thick skin and yeah he's I mean not to put too fine a point on it. He's been like deeply depressed for the last few years, and I think understandably so it'd mean find me. You know, as I say, I think, I'm unusual in this respect, but I think most people would never be able to handle something like this. It's just awful Is he getting any professional help? You know one of the tricky things here is it's actually? Maybe maybe you can help me with this? It's actually really hard for cancelled people to find sympathetic, shrinks and we've talked about this. A lot with various people know that they're, the the whole profession of psychology is itself, god pretty woke, and so you know you have a hard time actually finding a therapist. You feel you can trust.

when you are going through something like this, I'm a specially in the conference that I should thank leave. We ve had some leads here and there and yeah he's had been so bad. You he's had university mandated therapy or counselling as a result of his sad initial of the first investigation, and I believe, as the your long suspension there, he had university mended accounts langen that helped him he's become a christian and he talks the priest think he likes talking the priests I'm in a sense because they actually likes to be held accountable for him actions and not just I you know told but everything's, ok, but you know now I've been trying to get it into proper there be, but it's as if it's actually really hard and we ve talked about the most cancelled people all know each other, and we ve talked about this a great deal with a lot of people, but how how hard it is to find professional help going through something like this and you do have a lawsuit pending, correct

We are considering all legal option there there's nothing well We have a lawsuit pending, but not against princeton. At the moment joshua he had been appointed a delegate for this group and in the summer of two thousand and twenty, and then when he wrote his colette piece, they removed him as a delegate and purged his name from from their website and all materials having to do with it, and so there was a lawsuit there and then we are considering are are legal options when it comes to princeton islam. It's a lot to think about whether you are We want to pursue a legal action that eta case, like us, of course, from what does the future hold for you and for joshua Where does this, and is this a hamster wheel? Does it just keep going around for him because he's been blacklisted? Where does this end? Where does it go for you? Fortunately, we have better friends and the friends we lost we have.

a family and- and we do have job offers or he has job offers. I actually install an employer principally the moment, but I just I've. If this is it, this is the area in July. I believe so. At that point I believe, will be public knowledge that he is there. I join in the american enterprise institute full time as as a fellow there, so he will be able to write about whatever he wants to have a free rein to continue doing research, academic research, also mostly focusing on their how to fix the problems that hurt in our world today, especially in academia, herself,

You know nobody knows universities better than joshua. Does he and his father was a professor of chemistry at columbia, joshua grew up in elite universities and that's the world he knows and he he knew them from the inside. He was on every committee. He he had no free time, because all he It was just run around helping people at the university all day long. So if anyone can tell you, you know what's going on in universities and then Howdah? How maybe to fix them dash was probably your guys. So I think that in our peace, it's it's a major pivot for him, but you know, even if you wanted to I stay in the academy as they say you know nobody will ever sight his research ever gotten. I mean I hope there

That's not true. I hope people will cite him eventually, but at the moment you know he's such a pariah. He you can barely attend. You know any conference any kind of activity that that academics usually do well are, of course, unbiased, but I really hope that he does get some professional help and have the opportunity to not only there but problem solve some of this. The worst situation. You can be in this together. The situation of learned helplessness where you been. like there's nothing. You can do a change, your situation once you get that sexual said, then hopelessness is not far behind and said follow are never good, I've read aloud of what he's done, some of the things he has written, and this is a cognitive

Lee, agile, cognitive, really active, driven and joel an for him. two stymie. That would be a terrible thing for in a terrible thing for the world, so I would really hope that he would. Work his way out of that, because peace, really cancelled until he decides he's cancelled by third fail, page it really is, and that's easy to say, but when you and fired, and they won't site you and they won't hire you and they won't this. I won't that isa. Well, ok, so you tell yourself whatever you want, but the world still has excluded you, but. You can always find a way I can, and I'm telling you with this cancer. culture running a mug there now getting to the point of cancelling each other. somebody's gonna have to put that all back together,

he has a ban with to figure out how to do that. No. I I agree with you entirely and I you know day by day, as they say, he's he's doing better now than he has been. But it's it's been a really long two years and he has complete an agoraphobia in princeton, not not in other places, but he's literally won't leave our house, I mean he'll he'll, occasionally walk in the direction away from town, but he he just won't go into town at the moment. It's it's horrifying, I could understand, is logical in there, but I hope you will give me my cinnamon and tell him. I would like to meet him and say hello, and I look forward to doing that. Thank you so much. I appreciate that. Well, you ve been great in talking Today, I think you ve, articulated this very, very well and when he said

I was reading that article. You should be terrified enough sooner. then too much is too much, and this is a good example of too much. I hope people that are listening to this do your own research on this google, the name radio, else? Make up your own mind? I think you'll hear

you saying you should be terrified. Yeah, it's gone too far. It's gotta stop! I thank you for taking the time to articulate, listen. I hope we ve had a useful discussion about it very fallen. Thank you too. You entirely bobo. Thank you so much at her. She part christmas candy lane we ve got more than just your neighbors light shell, like five million twinkling life, more willing posters, decorated, trees, family rights touch. I can't you wait is open daily. Seventy gives today, unless you ve got com.