Social psychologist Dolly Chugh joins Dr. Phil on the Phil in the Blanks podcast to discuss how to embrace, rather than ignore, the contradictions of American history.
“This love of country is getting in the way of us actually engaging with what we don’t like about our country,” Chugh says.
In her new book, A More Just Future: Psychological Tools for Reckoning With Our Past and Driving Social Change, Chugh offers seven tools grounded in psychological research that can help you learn -- and, importantly, unlearn -- American history.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
This episode is brought to you by the real truth, a strategy and presented by the hit podcast. The last podcast on the left and the life calling all truth seekers now is your chance to expose the real truth, take on your secret identity, complete missions, capture, cryptic and gather a loyal followers to on earth the truth behind the world's biggest conspiracies grab your tinfoil hat and by the real truth. Game are minor in store at amazon target or walmart we're all americans. There are so many things that we can bond over. I caught the patriots lemme. This love of country is getting in the way of us actually engaging with what we don't like about. Our country dolly chagas, a social psychologist and measurement professor at new york university, stern school, a business where she
ages, mba courses and leadership in management. dollars? Research focuses on bounded ethics, reality which, she describes as the psychology of good people void need, some of their psychology, a good people in her book a more. future psychological tools for reckoning with our past and driving social change dolly for seven tools grounded in psychological research that can help you learn and import. Let us learn american history, so welcome, congratulations on a more just future wow here. I appreciate that. I love the optimism of this book. I hate people that complain or criticise What's going on and don't make suggestions about how to make things better.
and you don't make that mistake. You talk about what needs happen and how we can make changes need to be made in this world. So I love that about this, but what I appreciate You say about. I like everyone else- have moments of overwhelm, but in the end I hope we can move towards action. I, due to I want to talk about some things that I think we get stuck You talk about what it means to say that our here Three has been whitewashed. There's been a lie. conversation about this and still is a lotta com, station about this. I live half the time in taxes and some of the time in california solve read a lot in two very different environments about that, but about what do you mean when you use that term? And I use the term sparingly to be honest, because I know it's a term that people
A struggle with what I mean when I use it when it refers to is that psychologically we're all drawn to narratives that support our perspective, in others, a classic study than in the field of psychology, took a football game. They got very heated. Players were thrown out of the game. Are you know some? Some? Some? You don't mixed emotions about different calls that were made some unsportsmanlike conduct and when the psychologist went and talk to the fans of both teams, this was a princeton dartmouth football game. If I remember right and study, the fans on each side were absolutely clear that it was the other side that was unsportsmanlike and that it was their team that was the victim in this situation.
And- and that's I think, a situation we anybody's will ever watched a sporting event can relate to the idea that you know you sort of see your team who's your light than you see the other team road whitewashing of history is in some ways not nothing more than that natural impulse that we present things from our own. perspective and in the united states we have a racial history that goes back hundreds and hundreds of years where the perspectives of people who have been enslaved or people who ve pino been been had. Their land removed from them are going to be different than the perspective of people who didn't have that, and so whitewashed history is referring to is the historical perspective that we have all learned ass. We ve if we ve grown up, that we sort of absorbed from the culture. Is it representing
Multiple perspectives on what happened is confirmation bias lucky yes in place where we're just not open and if so, why is there yeah? So I mean I know that lake, when I when I propose a restaurant, that Then I should try and his let's look at the reviews and then I go look at the reviews and I I do tend to pay attention to the five star reviews, and this was the restaurant proposed that confirmation pyres at work, I sort of conveniently don't notice the lower star reviews so confirmation by, as is always at work for all of us in every main of our life where we are eyes will gravity our minds will gravity to whatever reinforces our point of view, what I've been
saying in myself and in our society is that I think we are trying to unlearn some things. We talk a lot about being lifelong learners, but I think there's With some life long on learning that starting to take place and that pushes against our confirmation, bias or confirmation bias is going to say, let me reinforce everything. I've always believed to be true and fully fully true and unlearning says. Let me see if I can let go of some of that and add some new ones, nation and re learn. This episode is brought to you by linkedin linked in believes, we need to be marketing, can be brilliant, bold and innovative and all Is there a platform which was purpose built to make be to be mean more for your business and with the targeting tools on linkedin, you can reach your precise audience right down their job title, company, name, location and more rethink you're beating marketing linked and adds and get a hundred dollar credit on your next campaign, just gotta linked
How come slash advertise? That's linkedin, dot, com, slash advertise terms and conditions apply. this episode is brought to you by linkedin, linked in believes we need to be marketing- can be brilliant, bold and innovative and all since their platform, which was purpose built, may be to be mean more for your business and with the targeting tools on linkedin, you can reach your precise audience right down. our job title, company, name, location and more breathing you're beating. marketing linked and adds and get a hundred dollar credit on your next campaign, just gotta linked How come slash advertise? That's linkedin Dot com, slash advertise terms and conditions, apply. now. Clearly, where a divided country along. So many different topics in. I always think look we're all americans. There are so many things that we can bond over a teacher. negotiation skills, sometimes and I'll
tell people that if you're gonna negotiate with somebody, the first thing you should do is sit down. Ok, first list. about what we agree on, does sometimes, when you spend time to say what do we really agree on? What are we really both want the list of things you need to negotiate a lot shorter than may be what you thought? It was a really think. People have forgotten the fact that at least in theory. I thought we all love this country that we all wanted america to be aware, if a place to live and raise our families and all that not that we don't have differences, because certainly we do, but it seems like the differences have controlled the narrative instead of some of the common things and a lot of it has to do with race. Of course, not all
but a lot of it has to do with race. Is there a place to this narrative, where it doesn't have to be contentious, and we don't have to have such vitry all over the things that we do disagree about yeah when it creates summary of where we are, I think there is I've been describing this situations some of us feel and where we love our country so deeply and then feel like that. Love of country means it's hard for us to see and engage with what we don't like about our country,
we can we can love our children and not like everything they do. But sometimes you know that, as I call it, the patriots dilemma, this love of country is getting in the way of us actually engaging with what we don't like about our country. I think the path out of the patriots dilemma, as you said, wish. I love my country, you love your country, so many of us share. That is what I call being a greedy patriot, and this builds off of the wonderful research of psychologists, Angela worth unread where grit is passion and perseverance in pursuit of a meaningful, long term goal in here and thinking about our love of country is what were pursuing as our in the longest long term goal, is keeping this country as vibrant as it can be
for our children and grandchildren, but doing in a way that is active, like you said at the beginning of our conversation and instead of dealing were entitled to love of country too easy love of country to realizing that sometimes our country breaks our heart. Sometimes are children break our heart? We can still love them. We can still support them and help them do better and I think, being a greedy patriot is something we can all get behind. I love this country, but I don't think it's perfect. I don't put it on a pedestal is just like in rio internships. I would hate for one in a relationship to ever put their significant other on a pedestal, because you doomed to failure when you do that, because they are not perfect, you're setting them up to fail. It's gonna come tumbling down. I don't think you're being disloyal as an, Eric to say I love this country
that boy. There are a lot of things about it that I want to make better than I wanna see improve, and when you talk about me, integrity patriot to me that seems to be a path forward. Its in love, your country, but have a to do list I love that I love that love your country would have to do list. That's great it! It's like you know it's a little bit like letting garden instagram version of our country. You know that sort of air view of it exactly where certain parts of this country, I think the civil rights progress has been almost a media phenomenon as opposed to a real world phenomenon, or it certainly been in bed extend the media versus the way it plays out in real life dinner. Other parts of the country where I think much more progress has been made, made a good friend of mine, Debbie draper there
the documentary on black wall street and what happened in tulsa and we're working together on a project now call freedom, georgia, the doc you series about freedom georgian. What families are working on down there too, create a reality and it's stoning to me how many p bull in america have no idea what happened in tulsa. It was. taught they're, not aware of it when they hear about it when they see what actually took place are absolutely appalled and I won't. I was in that group- So a few years ago was only very recently. I and I think it was in reading a book of fiction. Actually it I'm blinking on the author name, but was reading some. You know page turner bug that ahead. as a historical event. You know this is what we know from studies by people like james low end, whose history
worry. I refer he's a historian who studies how we study history, who found of matter that a lot of us this wasn't in our textbooks. This wasn't in our classrooms. It's not our teachers falls no one's blaming the teachers, but again we know where we started. Our conversation there's been limited perspectives that that we ve been exposed to. some of us myself included in so yes when we then learn about it. There is actually a lot of disbelief, sometimes there's feelings of shame or guild. Sometimes the shaman guilt is about what happened. Sometimes it's about the fact that we didn't know what happened sees me and so what you're describing I'm so delighted to hear your ear involved in those media projects, because so often it is through these narratives that come through books and movies and documentaries and pod that we hear about things like this as we sort of work to also in the classroom.
how to create that? That fact telling actually went to college I started my college grew at the university atossa. I had a history, professor, that took the approach of teaching what Call the underside of american history I want just then he said to buckle up because we're going to talk about the real ugly parts of how we got to where we are, and this was back in nineteen sixty eight nineteen? Sixty nine this decision. By said, let's look at what were our finest hours but control. To who we are- and so I got an early expose, your that's amazing. ahead of this. I am I he really in really watching. You drop out of that class in a hurry, was a shock to allow MIKE Archeo get enough of these cause. I'd head
the instagram version I school, and now I hear somebody's. Tell me l a. Let me tell you what happened in the back rooms. Let me tell you what happened when people weren't watching. Let me tell you what didn't talk about and it did make me love my country any less, but certainly made me feel like. I knew what was really going on. So I didn't feel naive. I didn't feel like I was getting conned. That's that's! That's yeah one you that James,
oh and who I just referred to heated and analysis of art of textbooks in this. As you know, a few decades after the class you're describing in heat found. If I remember the statistics, writing took like the eighteen most popular, a widely used. U S, history textbooks and he found that something like half of them did even have the word racism in the index and that when they described words, phenomena like slavery or segregation, racism was not use as an explanation for what happened. So it is. It really is like rare to find a place where we get the kind of that was it the under side. I think you said of American,
history, it's just not that easily available, what a gift that you had it. So young, though you talk about some psychological tools in helping people rap their minds around this. I'm interested in talking about this because I think a lot of people missing read some of what I think is being asked and I think, a lot of what you are talking about here. I think a lot of people Take this as a personal attack or a personal affront, I did a show a few years ago on implicit bias and white privilege white privilege of some out the fact that this is one thing that you may have a windfall from that you may benefit from, but it is
not necessarily anything that you're doing actively affirmatively consciously on a day to day basis that you need to correct in europe averil repertoire, buddy it's built it it systemic to our society, and I gave the example that I can walk and to a department store, cattle wander around like I'm lost in the desert, while my wife is shopping and nobody follows me Nobody bothers me that I'm sick, foreign bald and stick out like a sore thumb. If I was me and black, that would necessarily be the case that does it in that you did anything bring that about in this year, but that's just built in, and
I had to shut off the comments, on all of my social media platforms, because I didn't want my viewers being exe close to some of the language that This being said in the comment sections on those media platforms for having the audacity to say that I would be afforded some privilege that a black me might not be afforded. And the things that were set. I said turn it off cause. I thought I don't want people have to hear some of the things being said yeah. I appreciate you sharing that you now I Debbie irving.
And writer. Debby irving has a metaphor of headwinds and tailwinds that I've had found really useful in talking about privilege and the way it goes is that it's the ideas you know let's say I was to go out for a run. My kids laugh when they hear me viscerally, let's say mom but let's say and you know I say: okay, I'm gonna, you know run to that corner with the fire hydrant and then I'm gone. You turned back and while I'm running I'm thinking you know, I think this cross training spang off, I'm feeling pretty good making pretty good time, and then I make the u turn to come back and I find myself struggling and suddenly I have this no desire to quote unquote tie my shoe happened there for a long period of time and in that return home when I'm struggling. If someone
was looking out a window watching me run were to see me. They might say dolly, doesn't look like she's much of a runner or she must come from. You know, doesn't look like. She comes from a family that values running or they might have all sorts of external explanations for for why I wasn't or internal explanations for why I wasn't running well. What would we would actually have? Isn't it one nation, is that, on my way out, I had a tail wind, but it couldn't really feel good. You don't actually feel tell wins, even though they improve your per foremost, run my way back. I had a headwind that I can feel it, but the people watching me through the windows can't and so privilege is really just to me, One way to think about is we all have some headwinds and some taylor in our life, but the best the sneaky thing is when we have tell whence we don't feel them. So we
get angry when people say we have privileged because relate what do you mean? I was just making good time on my right. I was cross training and doing better and the fact is, I probably was cross training and doing better, but I also had a tailor road. What's your suggestions on how we get people to understand that that's not a personal indictment of something that they have done discriminatory today. So I think there two ways to think about That one is that it's okay, if we sometimes are making mistakes that are contributing to the problem. So I have in my first book they had an entire chapter called and, if you're not part of the problem you're, not part of the solution and what I meant by that was we can we we? We didn't create this problem, but we we did inherit it, and that means that in some ways we are part of it and what we that that to do list
you mentioned earlier begins with us recognizing the ways in which I benefit from the the tailwinds that that you know you just described to tailwind. So it isn't that I did something wrong, but I do benefit from it and until I can see that it's hard to engage with how to fix it, and the second thing is, I talk a lot in my work about being good ish instead of a good person, and my my whole premise is that we want to
I go of being a good person, because it's this brittle binary, I'm good or bad, and we're all gonna sort of elect to see ourselves as good as opposed to being good ish, where we're seeing ourselves as a work in progress. You know back to this idea of like a growth mindset where we're always getting better, but that doesn't mean that you know I'm a professor. That doesn't mean that I don't sometimes confused two black male students who do not look alike at all, but I still confuse them for each other, because I'm relying on some shortcut or that I, my teaching assistant, didn't track my calling patterns and tell me that I call on men disproportionately more than women and I interrupt women, those things they're, my behaviors, but I can also
view it as something that I'm constantly working on. Instead of, I have to be perfect all the time, a good person all the time. The phase is ready when you are proud of, are we there yet and that the anticipation and conversations in a vehicle that came from enterprise with the peace of mind, of our complete clean pledge, curbside, rentals and low tech transactions, plus so many vehicles of all kinds? So you can relax and focus on the moment all of them enterprise connecting you to other places. You love took up. Gonna, see robin mcgraw, with Eric beauty, by known as the forest to the stars and king of roses,
designing opulent arrangements for allister's, elite fashion houses and luminaries around the world. I robbed and Eric talk about some of his most over the top celebrity flower arrangements and his experience with grabbing analyzed, beautiful opportunities that you don't want to miss this be sure to subscribe, follow and listen to apple, podcast, spotify or how ever your listening. Now I've always said you can't change what you don't acknowledge and I think in his cancel culture. An awful lot of people are afraid to acknowledge something an admission of guilt. I'm alive. Tell me that I have asked my audience before, because a really I get the audience to participate, come and ask questions, and I've asked them. How many of you who to day or not raising your hand, because you, don't wanna be labelled. You don't want it cross. Some wine in europe self censorship,
because you're afraid you're gonna run a red light and labelled it looked like the wave. football game, every hand in a room, one upset, I'm not saying squat doc. That is a touch you could be. I don't have today's glossary at sea to change almost daily I really don't know so to admit that I, have a bias? Oh my god, I'm afraid I might be applying for it three years from now, and somebody pull up this clip where I was in the audience and said yeah. I admit I have some thoughts feelings or behaviors that I think are driven by bias either and consciously or otherwise that I'm well into did, but I'm not perfect. I'm scared to death like that, might happen right. Re yeah
and so I mean you know I I could. I can be empathetic to someone not wanting to on t v kind of expose themselves, and most of us are not on t v on a this is the way you talk to us about, but in what I tell people when they asked me about chancel, cultured things like that. As I say, the vast majority of us, unlike doktor phil, are not at celebrities, are not going to be cancelled in the way that you know. When we talk about someone being cancelled and a big, age the most of us are within our communities. Are families are workplaces we are our religious organisations- we are trying to interact with the people in our orbit and what we all about daily interactions and interpersonal interactions is that taking ownership. Apologizing sincerely
being a genuine learner. These are all things that are actually really effective and interpersonal relationships. So the idea that we would present ourselves as a sort of a flawless, I dont think its believed by others. In fact, the data would suggest that you know if, if I'm in front of a black person, I'm not black and I'm claiming to have no buys, I'm actually distancing myself in decreasing trust, because there there are unlikely to believe me as being sincere, and self aware. I think that's true, but I think there is a difference between claiming yourself to be flawless and affirmatively, acknowledging dispatch do you have biases and but I don't Oh I'm here to learn so see their time. I alone I am here to learn- and you are things you talk about- is
you use your research findings in part to help people how to be a better colleague to people that don't look like you and not being a well intentioned bear. You're too equality. So talk about that some out. Do you be a better colleagues people that don't look like you and not just in a high profile, but at the factory at the university at the retail store. Absolutely right. I actually think this is this. Is it What you- and I were just sort of grappling with is exactly where it comes to head began with the idea, I love this rule that I learned from one of Michael Bungay, stani airs books, the wheat rule that w I t. Why am I talking-
oh and here are the ideas of someone tells me and I've had this happen to me and my workplaces. Someone tells me you just used a word, that's inappropriate, you know and and that's that's offensive or it has a history. That's that's problematic My impulse, in that moment, I'll be just totally transparent, is the sort of I can feel myself get defensive like a red zone defensive. I want to explain to them what to do.
Person I am and how you know mistaken. They are that I would mean any harm by that like, in other words, I want to start talking. That's the moment where actually- and this is where I, if I can go into my goodness space rogen if I can breathe for a second and use the weight rule, this is an opportunity for me to say. Oh, maybe there's something here that I've stepped in whoops. That feels awful. I may have sort of done harm to someone else that feels awful, but someone's taking the risk of telling me. Maybe I can simply say, can you tell me more or I didn't know that or I want to apologize, and know that I'm going to look into it if they don't look like they're in the mood to to engage with me? The idea here is that, when we're interacting with people who have different perspectives, different lived experiences that look different than us or they pray different than us or they they they speak to
leaving us? These are all moments where the more we can take in a curious way. What I find I do a lot better. I build more trust with people in that mindset that when I'm in this will actually do you see that if you don't like, I can easily go into a place of defending myself rather listening to them. You're gonna love your thinking. I think we're They have a council culture, not cancel culture, because, I think would make so much sense. If somebody does something whether its They step on land, mine with a transgender community, other Belge BT, q, community in general, or cross boundary in the racial. interactions or whatever, it might be. I think tat There is not a real place and I think we have bore bullies that sit and type thing.
In their grandmothers basement in the dark would never say to somebody in an elevator, you see somebody that'll say something that is fancy to their sensibilities, and dead of saying what you just said, oh tell me about that or help me with that cosette surname. My intention, instead, what you get is, I hope, your door dies. I want to come to your house and cut your throat. If you read the things that they type that's the knee jerk cancel culture. I've seen it done to people. that are actually allies right and they need friends, they're running off well spoken, influence joel allies, it's like a gotcha game. If somebody
chooses the wrong word or says something in an awkward, wisely, gotcha yeah. Then everybody jobs on the bandwagon instead of saying women, it. what's this person really stand for, let's look at who they are across the board Was this a one off and if I mention some about it, do they re frame at her say it differently sometimes when they do is like oh yeah, yeah. Now you're, sorry mere that drive waves me so crazy that we do that each other. Instead of doing what you d say, that's why I say we need a council culture where we say I listen. You may not know, but just consider this an undue with it. What you will I wish I understood better I'll often one You know the folks that are doing that, like what percentage of the population is it because when it happens, it feels like subtle
when you're surrounded by it you're swimming in it, but is it you know this tiny little percentage that that's you know peeing in the pool? That's messing it up for everybody, but regardless it is. It feels like. You know that that is what it feels like. I think the reality is. I have to keep reminding myself that the more I
I have engage with this on my own in my own learning and an learning process the better prepared. I am if that happens right. So I think what happens I think with some people is because they're worried about cancel culture. It becomes have an opportunity to shut down this rid of learning and reflection process as opposed to doubling down on it. This is the moment to double down if you're really worried about cancel culture will then try to understand where it's coming from, not the the toxic piece of it, but the the sort of the underlying messages around what people, what other more reasonable people
well are asking for is what I say. I don't think twitter is a real place good, but it doesn't just happen with high profile people. There have been more professors with tenure dismissed for complaints from students in the ass, ten to fifteen years, then has happened since the Mccarthy era, with students that I think are hyper sensitive and not thick skinned enough to they. I don't like what you said so I disagree with you. I want to talk about the outer debate that but a where fifteen to thirty percent of students now think it's ok to yell down a speaker. You disagree with on campus. What's that all about, I thought Universities, where you went to hear other points of view to get other peoples,
one of you, but I've got a lotta, really good friends that are comedians, coming good comedians will fill up on a yeah, the tenth, some people and they won't go to college campus- they say, there's no sense of humour there and there is no upside to going so They literally will not book a college campus and have not for the last five or more years. Well, that's that's really telling yeah. I guess so I'm a little it took on this one. And the reason is that the there's this metaphor that some people use of heat and light as being different ways to influence people and light is where you gotta meet people where they are in your incremental and kind of tea
in dialogue discussion- and I'm certainly my temper. Madam, I skills are in that took it, but there is also heat: witches, confrontational and and disruptive not might have remained or my tool kit, my skill set, but what I, when I looked at some research about when how change happens in society? What I saw was that at times when there was a lot of light and not much heat or a lot of heat and not much light- and this is me applying the metaphor- words at that called it more like moderate and radical they there wasn't as much
change made is when there was a balance of both right, and so it's made me a actually I'm not I'm not endorsing any specific thing you said, but I am saying in general, it's made me much more appreciative that there are people willing to bring the heat. Knowing that I am not one of those people in and my theory, I have no data on this, but this is my very my theory. Is that light changes mines, but he changes systems and that's why we kind of need both and and You know it does lead to some really awful scenarios like some of the ones you just described you shut up. not endorsing anything, you just said what is it you want to be careful not to door- oh a meaning, I dont know I dont know every specific case where a professor was dismissed in it. I know some cases out there, but I haven't done
he died, so I dont have a particular point of view over whether a particular professor should or should not have been dismissed in those cases Oh, I don't either, I'm sure there are some people, it would be better I'm going to do in some other job in some other palpably needed be run out. but I'm just saying is it stating that its spiked of late- and I think, that's more about the fact that maybe these students Being goodish enough and try to be good a goodish people are always growing yan. To do that, you got at least way the other side's born of you ride you at least be willing to listen and rejected. I've been in this profession for forty five plus years, and I always do people? Look, I'm not the repository of all knowledge and of anything. I tell you, I tried it
we talk about evidence, base therapies if it doesn't have some empirical basis to try not to talk about it. Even so I tell people of what I tell you what we stand challenge hit the egypt buttoning go fine, something better, but consider it yeah. It's no good, then move on you talk about something bring people define their ordinary privilege the part of your everyday identity that you take for granted. Did you expand on, therefore listeners a little bit sure. Absolutely. First, though, I have to give you a shout out my guide, who I think once heard you say I forget, if it to give that
The idea is a good idea for fifteen minutes or say love every idea for fifteen minutes. Fifteen minutes it is right, and I he's he's had to remind me of that a few times. I really don't know what you're talking about so here's what DR phil says and so that that gets quoted in our home a lot and I wasn't sure if he had taken fifteen seconds and turned it into fifteen minutes for the dalai modification of so ordinary privilege is b, and so we, what headwinds entail winds and how we don't always feel them. another way. Sort of I keep. You know. I study the thing, I need to work on quite frankly, so so I'm always looking for ways to understand them better, so I can implement them. So this idea headwinds and hellenes. Why do we know if I can't feel my tail ones? How must also know a ham tail winds, so one way
and thinking about it is: let's see we think about all the identities we hold in selling off the top. My head, others use myself we'll say. Well, you know I am a woman, I'm a professor. I am a mother and indian american children of immigrants and off the top of my head. Those are some identities what are they identities or not happen mind from it. I didn't even think about, and that moment warnings What might be, as I didn't say, I'm street like as you think too much about whether or not him straight. I have pictures of me husband, been over my office. I hold his hand in public. I refer to him you know and freshness settings in it with my family vat. Of freedom, I have is a tail wind, because some people, people from the algae bt q community, may not feel they have that freedom in their workplace and in their families. I mean I feel safe, doing that and certain settings and that
because I don't have to think about that that identity is cut him. ordinary in my life is just built in to my dear the day life. It's Hale went because I don't think about it. I don't feel the same way that somebody who has a head wind and that identity might be wrestling with it and the so that's that's one way to figure, where those till wins hours. What's the idea that so ordinary my life or ordinary,
in the world around me. I don't have to think about it or navigate it and then the the sort of the optimistic little scientific takeaway here is that there's research that says from from multiple scholars that when we are, let's say someone tells a racist joke right and let's say we take white, dr phil vs black doctor phil. You gave us those two personas earlier. If white DR phil says: hey, that's not cool to the person telling the racist joke versus black, DR phil says: hey, that's not cool. What the data says is that white, DR phil will be taken more seriously in that situation, whereas black
doktor fellow will be viewed as perhaps having a sense of entitlement or being whining and its ironic, because maybe why doktor filled as I feel directly affected by that job, where his black doktor filled does. But the research says we're not sort of the targeted at a group that sort of targeted in this particular issue were actually taken more seriously. So the optimistic scientific take away here is that that ordinary privilege, the identities. I don't think that much about that, I probably of tail ones that mean someone else has headwinds. I also have an opportunity and set a feeling helpless when I watch or unfold unfold that I actually have a little more influence than I thought in that identity. That may be in that meeting. I might you know, speak up rather than stay quiet,
we're in that family gathering or maybe like he, I dunno. If he really wanted to say it that way, rather than thinking well, this doesn't affect me. I don't have a place in the conversation. Let me ask you because you bring up a really important point there? You say you may have a tail wind being straight in it. You have some. clues about it around and it's kind of subtle stated, and so you don't have to stake out that too. a toy that ground, whereas some one else might have to in vast energy an effort in doing that. and then there are other areas where you might have to invest, effort and energy in your life isn't that part of it, virtual reality, where some people have to lean in some areas more than others. I wonder
sometimes if that's really okay. If that's, something where, if called on for it, we can be supportive but is it our job to change, everything to make Person, have a tail wind to make that person feel more comfortable because I hear a lot of people say have no issue with that whatsoever. Nor, Do I feel that it's on my to do list, I hear people say I feel like they. are beating me over the head with them and its causing resentment on my part when I dont want to feel that I dont want to feel that resentment yam. But yet I feel like I'm, being force, fed and beaten over the head with it and you're saying
It may be because there feeling a headwind there, but is that their perception or is there your job. I wonder, how you answer, because I get I guess that a lot yeah, so I I'm actually. I I'd like to be better at this, but I'm not sure that I'm as persuasive as I'd like to be in convincing people who who don't want that on their to do list, you know to put it on their to do list. I think where I have been more effective and and found lots of people wanting to engage is people who have it on their to do list, but don't know how to do it. You know who are struggling for tools are feeling helpless or saying you know: I'm not directly affected. So I'm this, isn't it's not that I don't care it's that. I don't think I'm supposed to be engaging like it's, I'm supposed to like you
the floor and of course there there may be some value in that too. The. Why am I talking rule, and so I'm not saying that we're not, but both both groups of people aren't out there and there might be some overlap between them, but I'm not sure I know that I have just the right pitch to the folks who who feel that there's two merchant you know I need I need it to sort a pause. I do the show recently entitled you can't say that ok had a list of words were offensive to peoples. Civilities that we determine I doing a fair amount of research and on the list was mom and dad. You can't say mom and dad anymore, and I was Ok, I'm here to learn so tell me why you and say mama more and a
the woman in the audience said well. At my home, we'll have a mom and dad have a moment, a mom rain and it hurts our daughters, feelings, bring home a letter that says. Their mom and dad to which my first response was. you ve, never taken home, a letter that said there mom and dad show me a letter go home, find similar simulator said dear mom and dad it always says parents there there are those who say dear mom and dad are you Making a problem where one doesn't exist and called my mom and dad? You are both passed away, mom and dad Seventy years am, I said, to change. How I refer to my parents, because.
You're nuclear family is a moment of mom that, as not a rhetorical question. Really was? Are you saying? Are you expecting that for you to be? After all that I changed the way I refer to my deceased parents have answer well very nice, lady, by the way, and she said no not really personally, but I don't want my daughter to feel like she is in some way different or in fear. Here! She's! I think that's why that's on the list yeah as well, real that Maybe why it's on the list but I guess that's what I'm saying when some people say is that my fight tonight do. I need to change my life pattern because you, Have a daughter,
its living in a mom and mom home. I think that's where people say have we gone? too far, worse spending, our time working on this gun thing when we have other battles to fight yeah, yeah, that's what I mean when I say some people say: should this be on my to do list it? It him bubbles in me, bad people are asking other people to change what they call their own parents. It seems highly probable to me that informs the doctors offers in communications from schools. As you are referring to in places like that, It just makes logical sense in a multi generational world, in a world with different kinds of family structures, to just say something like adults, one adult or something like that. Like many fill out, I will
I will. I will out myself here and say that when I fell out a doctor's form- and it says mother's name, father's name and I'm sorry- I cross out mother and father, and I write parent one apparent to or adult one in adult too for exactly that he's, and that I had a dozen it to me. That's an easy fix. It doesn't hurt. Anyone includes more people rather than fewer people and its more accurate. It's it's! It's it's in a world where we know so many different family structures, there step families and there's there's gave families, and there is grandparents raising kids. Why not create? firemen and when its, when it so easy to just let people
when whoever is the appropriate parents and guardian and their home that that, for me, is different than saying dodger fill. This is how you should refer to you're you're decease parents, and I am sorry that there are no longer in your. Your life, though, seem like the very different issues to and as I say, this was a delightful woman and she said just talking about anything that some one might say that would cause my daughter to feel differently and no don't expect shoes which face should have that absolutely delightful woman and not try to stir up trouble or whatever, but she said this why that's on the list and yet learned something from what she said, but I won't change. Shall I refer to my mother and father. I know what I want you to yeah
oh agreed and- and I that is a that's a good example of one where gosh? If it's you know it, if it's, if it's not presented correctly, it sounds absurd. It just sounds ridiculous and, as opposed to, if it's a very specific like can we just you know on paperwork when we're speaking to big groups of people include all of them. And that is why those situations where I thought she contributed to the conversation I make people think about our okay hadn't thought about that. master bedroom was on the list yan. New that one, but I had someone come in on it and explained what used to happen in the masters bedroom. Lotta people live
bulbs, came on over their head, and so it was a great discussion. Yeah, that's a new one, that's one that in the course of writing a more just future. That's where it that when came to my awareness in It- and I understand the real estate industry, there's been some shifting a vocabulary I have to confess I still can't the word master better comes out of my mouth, like you know what I'm saying. Oh, we need to repair the air conditioner in the master bedroom, I'm like oh, so it's a process, yeah arbiter the change. That's why I say you can remind your there were some one could gently remind you instead of attack about it, which sometimes happens yeah la LA the concept of a good ish person versus a good person, because that means we're all works in progress right exactly. We're all growing and changing, and we don't have to meet some apps loot standard. That's exactly
I will say one more thing about since she said standard. I consider good ish to be a higher standard than good for sure right, because good is just like you just like you just get to declare it and and don't have to work, for it was good as unlike like laughing, I gotta, do it every day is an ongoing thing, but in most parts of our life we are proud that were bill were better at our job. Now that we were a year ago or were you know, we're better at using that technology? how can we were a year ago when it comes to this Part of her lives called being a good person. We somehow think that we're just post delight have it in a static way, as opposed to be able to say I'm a better person now than I was a year ago, and I think this idea of being good as speaks to that higher standard of watches, keep getting better. There's one thing that I wanted you to talk about a little but if you will keep you forever and I'm out such a great discussion, but
in your book in chapter five, you talk about rejecting some racial fables. If you would talk about that, little bit bore the listeners shower why not chapter. I I I tell the story of a forty two. year, old woman named Louise mccauley, who, since she was a child, had been and which is a a black girl in the nineteen sixties and are growing up in the forties and fifties, and she and her grandparents were worried that she was so willing to speak up. If a white child sort of expected her to move off the sidewalk, as was the norm in her community, that she would sort of she would. She would fight that kid rather than move off the sidewalk and that as an adult
she had her full time job than she would spend each evening and each weekend, volunteering for the enabling c p, and this woman, who was so had so much courage and conviction in in commitments of racial justice. Was one day coming home from work and she was asked to yield her seat to a white, a white passenger and she refused to do it and the police ended up being called, and she said when the police arrived. Why do you push us around and, and she would be arrested and ah, DR martin luther king would get wind of this, the stance that she had taken and Montgomery alabama, because Louise macaulay His full name was Rosa Louise mc caully parks and
I share her full name now, because the story, I just told you was so different than the story I learned and that most of us have learned about rosa parks in which she was a tired seamstress that was an accidental activist was elderly. She was forty, two and and and and that you know she check out this. This injustice and and and doktor king came in and sort of amplified this injustice, and then the population said. Oh, my gosh, that's right. We should fix that end and thus change happened. That second version of the story I told is, it is a feeble. It's not true. There is ample evidence. It's not controversial the gene page jean Pierre her.
It has written the the sort of definitive, scholarly, biography and Soledad O'Brien has a documentary now out based on it. That shows the first version of the history that I just described as what really ben, but this feeble, where there is sort of accidental activism and widespread support, is problematic because it leads us leads me, and it leads us as a society to expect that. That's how change happens, that it happened in a way that that's easily digested. That's linear, that's not polarizing! and the reality is? That's not how change happen then, by the way many other people had attempted what she attempted before and not been successful, had not led to widespread support and marches and movements
which is another thing about the messengers of how change happens. Is there's lots of failed attempts and then there's some unexpected tipping point that we can't quite describe were why in that moment it galvanise people and so I I realise that I am not even really a history behalf, so this idea of thinking about the past is coming for me, interests as a psychologist and understanding how people think and act, and so I realized that my understanding, the past issues, boy, one fable after another. I think I'm sort of average in my knowledge of american history, I'm deepen my love of my country, but maybe average and my deep historical knowledge. And the stable. That a lot of us like me have internalized sets us up to look at efforts to make change now and feel like they're, not working.
because it's not fitting that linear fable, like narrative That is so well said, because if people think it's supposed to happen in this way, and it's not that it's like I'm doing something wrong if they understand, that's not the way it has to begin with a start. The way it does have and then they may be. Don't judge themselves, so much and continued, Work not in a linear fashion, but just continue to work in things happen sometimes multilaterally, sometimes in three different locations at the same time more, but we ve been talking about dolly's book a more just future. the subtitle, is psychological tools for reckoning with our past and driving social change. You make so much since the book is broken in two.
Three parts: how do we start? What do we do? Where do we go from here and where did go from. Here has two chapters in it that are entitled responsibility and build grit more. It is eggs. So much since the way talk about this. It makes it right really hard for people to be threatened. Rather than spired, and to not take these messages, really aspirational things if you really want to aspire to and why I started this whole thing by saying the to miss in your book, absent the judgment and not with naive optimism, but just saying look you. This is doable, we can make things better. We can create. Social change is
true. This book should be re, wired reading for every young person in high school. It should be required eating for all four hundred and thirty five representatives in the house at all Hundreds editors in the Senate and I'll buy copies and send of their want of mademoiselle read it. It would be so important. It's a point of view, an approach that can't not bring about change because it takes away the threat and the defensiveness blushing, gushing, the incas Malta, I feel, like you see, in and belt the my intent, which is. I I set out to write a book that leaves the reader hopeful and resilient and with a path forward and using stories and science and fueled by my love of Thank you for seeing them. Well, I do see it and I do feel it. I love chapter five,
say it was one of my favorite chapters. In the whole thing like us, I started with the underside of american history and nineteen, sixty eight and then to read about these fables here really interesting. I just think people will love this book and I really hope people will pick this up. raided. I promise you you'll be glad you did and you can write and tell me now. take that risk I stand by it is an excellent book. I would love have you on the show to talk about the summit sayings when we, about how to bring about change and how to close up the divisiveness in the country. I think you are thought later in this valley, I really do think you're. later in how to close the gap in the divisiveness in this country. Right now, I'm honored and I would even be minor, well
Thank you for taking the time to talk to me today. I really do look forward to talking to you again and you're a better historian than you give yourself credit for excellent psychologists, but a pretty damn good historian as well, and tell your dad he's a wise man. That's all I got out my mom and dad are the best. Thank you fair that acknowledgement list so much and I look forward to talking again soon. I can't wait thinks that to begin the book is a more just future by dolly tagged, psychological tools for reckoning with our past and driving social change, and it is spectacular or so a highly recommended. That's it
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Transcript generated on 2022-12-08.