I want to take a pause here to give you a quick preview of what's airing today on doctor phil, take a listen twenty five year old officer gifts and what down a federal jury found both parents Richardson and ron claiborne, not guilty of Alan gibson's murder. Yet they're spending life in prison, Allen's daughter, believes the right. Two men are behind bars the thought of each parents in toronto family for the first time. These people lie to you had nothing to do with the death. Defying doctor Phil check your local listings and for more on today's tv episode log on to dr phil dot com now back to fill in the blanks drug addiction is a disease these. It is resistant treatment. It is subject to re lapse and it can be fatal. These people ethic

casualties of this war, and it's not a war on drugs is a war on people, teaching people how to be people and providing valley in their lives. That's what we're supposed to do as society, and we have utterly failed this. You know population everybody welcome back to fill in the blanks listener ones. Like all you guys that have been downloaded, to fill in a black syn the time where this, we would argue that some really interesting stuff, you have been so great a tune. And spent his time, and I am not going to do boy. You today lava for Goods the war on drugs. Podcast expose is what they describe is the absurdity the real world consequences of fear the years of failed war on drugs, and we can talk about

whether that's even the right mindset. War on drugs The war on drugs is excuse, our government uses to get away with absolutely insane stuff so that a piss you off the cops. Why I just like looting, pillaging edges, way better names for what they go like what we would call a jack move or vienna rob acres devil ass. If it were better than be sure to listen to the war on drugs on the iheart radio apple podcast, wherever you get your pocket there are co host. Here, can be in plain english and gregg glad senior criminal, just this fellow at americans for prosperity. These guys, examined the cost of five decades of the policies that we have embraced the policing spend on the persecution of people that

in their view, and one in which I share are sick. These two really cover a diverse subject matter. They peel back the surface of this complicated period in our history, and talk about how the war on drugs has really fuelled overrun our suresh has actually exacerbated addiction and become a very high cost economically, so Gregg clayton welcome to the the that fear they have in this matter. It's great to be able to start to fail yeah, it's crazy, just listen to your voice for so many years now getting to talk to you about this. This topic, it's really an honor to thank you. Yeah! Listen I been at this for about. Two years and have always said that drug addiction is a disease, its serious disease. It is resistant treatment. It is subject to re lapse and it can be fatal. You are

going to police your way out of this you're going treat your way out of this? It is gonna, take a multi, faceted treatment approach and treatment team. You guys are very, critical of the way that this has been approach over fifty years at what I love about the two of you. Is you Just criticise? What's been done, you have some very constructive. ideas and attitudes about what should be done to help people to criticise made generated by criticized right. But you got don't criticise, you say in the alternative. Less considers some other thing. So, let's talk about this Let me start with you. What is your biggest problem? with what has been done over the last fifty years. Mapping. The biggest problem for me, as is the last that have been destroyed, like people's lives, had been taken apart by this,

this world drugs and is concentrated in certain areas where people are already somewhat added: his advantage from just certain dance that eliminate and The war on drugs is destroyed, a lot of black families, a ladder, families p. but I know in my community, I've seen at first hand I've seen it be the reason somebody pulled over I've seen it be. The reason people get arrears I see is the reason somebody has to go sit in jail. They have to put up the house to get this person bailed out, like I've, seen it unravel people's lives and I do stand. Averages go around. The country have been pulled over in every state after giving aid just about so I do you have to start even created with how you go. Get yourself out these situations. Yes, more wait a little bit of a mess. there was never carry more than I can eat. You know I'm not going to do a weed I will eat this year, so is. Is there

I like that, that's kind of my biggest problem is just seeing it. You know, tear apart a whole community. In a I mean you saw how crag was treated when it came out. It was a big fear campaign. You can pay. They now to what the opium aids are doing. People have a little bit more compassion and is a shame that that's what it takes, but I'm glad people die in the sea. It is Does it take some involvement? I think, because a lot of those people that were criticising adding in the past. Are now among them, because I shall be a crisis. So The suddenly go hey. This is not so hard to get into, and I've never yet met anybody that Oh me, they started doing drugs because they wanted to become an act. Not never here. Is not an attractive lifestyle. It's not easy and it's a very destroy people ask style and people are miserable, so Clayton what's been wrong,

with the approach and where did it go wrong out? It has become a war instead of appeal No, she apparent to become a war instead of a movement to by resources to treat these people with this disease. About. I one thing: A great guy sovereign about is when every have a war, you gotta have casualties, so these people are the casualties. This war is not a war on drugs is a war world people is. Is it The world rose, you stop the duration company and you would approach it in it. If her way and in just a being forced on such a street level where it already out there and then the policies that they have where career krim those religious tell on other people dick get out to continue do a crime is air.

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skillshare shared dot com greg. How did you to get together? Does your current odd couple they are now. We aren't really like the next buddy copper movie, that's gonna becoming too we are ready back the bag photos. Here we are at the heart of photo shoot with it, yeah well, yeah. You know it's kind, They in I've been either working in public policy for a few years now, since about twenty fifteen. Previously I was an attorney are working in the maryland area. I was a clerk for a judge, and so I've always been around this, but my first exposure really to the other side of the drug war was during law, school working, the pardons office- and you know my dad was a cop, and so I really only saw the the criminal justice system kind of from that arrest and never seeing seen the back end of it and and when I worked in the commutations office, I got to kind of see that back

So once someone goes the system, how we actually correcting this behaviour, how are we doing this, and all I saw was lengthy sentence- is not a lot of work on your treating the underlying causes of this criminal genetic behaviour. Through addition, so that's why I really got my passion for this and left to the world of of law, because it's terrible I recommend no one do it and I went into public policy, and you know I got connected with lava for good after some connections trying to help people that were wrongfully convicted of certain crimes to get out of prison and and through that we talked about how the drug war was really kind of the biggest wrongful conviction that we have in the criminal justice system suicidally- and we said we'd love to do an entertaining podcast and to kind of talk about this, and you know I have kind of nerdy policy chops and then Clayton has this amazing. You know lived experience and intelligence and advocacy on this issue and we started hearing a stand up, which kind of mixed and blended

You know kind of the real life experience which is you know polarity. I, if you'd ever get a chance to see Clayton he's amazing live in so yeah. It was just kind of this. You know we're combination of people that agreed on this issue, and hopefully it kind of comes into an entertaining in the form of package. I told you: I got pulled over every stay right right, needed. Somebody like greg case idea, get locked up in any state states. It is. Is the doe here on the policies that yeah yeah it's good to have if the attorney just to keep me in your backseat, then when you drive around you gotta roll down the back window instead of the top of him yeah, my my throw my dad's business card in the back of my license. You know just about greg. You clerked for judge ripken in the circuit in maryland, and we know baltimore is a place where drugs have really been rampart and

on the streets a lot, I guess his If there is any city at size in the united states, is this an urban or june is interracial thing. Is it unemployment? What is it that is? driving this epidemic in And I have they missed the mark so much in their policy approach to this absolute. wait? You know, I think the common denominator that you see throughout this we go through this in the podcast is an addiction, starts to increase and drive and get to these levels. When you see kind of social interactions decrease, we see hopelessness when you see your depression start to rise, and so you know, there's there's a lot of examples protect during the infancy of the yoke epidemic that it was these kind of fino raw spelt towns that had these bustling factories and job opportunities

high schools and and really a lot of things in and once that started to dwindle, you saw people kind of reaching for other things to kind of fill those holes in that despair and that's what's happening in places like baltimore, and but this is not an urban issue. This is not a suburban issue. It's it's touching every part of america and that's what I think makes this. You know and your current epidemic with fentanyl and in opiates so unique where it is touching. You know beyond. And just kind of the inner city, it's going across racial demographics, and so I think that's really where we're hitting it- and I think you know to answer your second question of where how are these policies missing? overall word taking this criminal justice approach to stop this behaviour that we don't want to see rather than making it a health issue. We are actually faint saying what does the evidence say? What are the underlying issues and how do we work alongside people to treat them and stop the demands?

We ve been really targeted on the supply aspects of the drug war, which is obviously important, but the demand aspect is so much more critical if you can reduce that demand, actually help people come through. That's the way you get out of this, but that has been the other side of it that we have not done from a international standpoint to really effectively treated I think that's where a lot of places are missing the mark, a major before that I've never read that started drugs to become an attic. Both of you talked about hopelessness and People's lives are not where they want. My experience has been that a lot of this really does began his self medication. I see it was dysfunctional families. I see kids, it are trying to escape a dysfunctional homesick. Innovation. I see it with people that don't have anything to really move towards, they can do this by default.

but it is a self medication type thing there too and fight off the depression, the boredom the hopelessness of helplessness, those feeling then, before they know it, they start doing drugs and pretty soon drugs are due in them, and now, they're doing him to keep from getting god awful deathly, sick, days turn into weeks and weeks turn in the months and months turn into years, and we ve got people knightleys ache in there. To arrest their way out of that. How are we that stupid I don't understand then the so we have were Johann hurry, really highlighted a thing. I guess a lot of people know, but I never really made connection that addiction is a lack of connection and the people are missing fundamental connections in their life and if we started

it added like that approach and I think we cast anybody away that does drugs once you're a junkie, you're an addict and there's nothing that can be done for you. You turn into a zombie or monster. However, people do in granted? It can't seem like that. You love him. Relative is now steel and stuff from you You see a change, their demeaning. You see it changing how they look so here. I think one of the biggest things is that people are I can make a nation in the eu: You, can just go to jail and expect that go away because this drugs in the jail I I can't imagine a a worse place. You know you're you're, saying how stupid can we be know where we can be really stupid on this issue. It a lot of other issues,

I can't imagine a worse place than jail or prison for someone that is, is trying to recover from addiction, and you claim brought up the jan hurry episode that we didn't. He talks about this famous study done an experiment called rat park. Where essentially you put a rat in a cage. You give him a thing of water with better straight water and one with cocaine and you leave them really. No other options were nothing's going on issues a cage by themselves. They start going towards the cocaine one in eight. Eventually, wall overdose and die. Put them in a position where you build this huge thing in this guy. Did this with a bunch of other rats to have sex with and all the food that he wanted, and we exercise we, wheels and everything else in after while they stop going towards the cocaine water and just shows you that addiction deftly has a chemical poetry, but is that social interaction and our response to this as a public power? If he has essentially said, if we throw you in this more desperate situation, you will somehow me should get out of it? I just don't see the connection there, and so,

you start thinking about what else is going on here and why do we continue these policies and I think, there's a lot of reasons behalf that, but we deftly have not been found The evidence of the signs are experts. Like yourself, doktor fill in There is on how to actually treat addiction, something that is really damn impossible to do for a lot of people and were using a police response with non exports leading the way, and we have in this for decades. Now, it's interesting that you say that and I'm familiar with that study people's. Oh, what's it got to do with human beings? Well, it's called comparative psychology and you can see patterns in the way. Animals respond and it does generalised to human beings and not all but certain situations. my son, J wrote it number one new york times, best seller when he was a freshman in college and is high school teachers didn't believe it because he said we couldn't get little shit. To read a book in high school, now he's written a book in college

it was like strategies for teens in this book, he was talking about different strategies for teenagers and part of it was he got really curious about why some teens got involved in drugs and why others didn't so across the country he talk to those who groups he really had a theory as to why it was the case, and he He was completely wrong, which he found out when you start talking to them. Those kids that were not on drugs, we're safe it wasn't that they had a better moral compass. It wasn't that they had somebody standing over their shoulder and telling them don't do this, don't do that they did it essentially out of selfish, motivate or greed. They said I want

something in my life. I want to be on the football team I want to be in the choir. I want to get a car. I want to have a job I want to have this or that and drugs don't fit and to that plan they a passion, they had a girl, they had something they wanted and drugs were inconsistent with that when you talk to those that were on drugs, why thereby sick answer was no reason not to they didn't have that girl they didn't, have a job they wanted. They didn't have objective to get into the choir on the football team or to buy a car. or whatever it was interesting every one of them said they were accepted because the only admission criteria for the drug culture was that you do drugs. You could tall short fat skinny dirty clean, whatever

did matter. The only admission criteria was that you do drugs that wasn't a case for other groups that they might aspire to be a part of and the number one need an all. People is acceptance less or even the most dysfunctional withdrawn awkward, thirty, whatever kid could find accept here only thing he had to do was drugs, and he or she was in even my son Eighteen years old figured out, you ve gotta, give these people a reason not to do drugs. You gotta give him something they want more fine. Their passion set up a go, give them something to aspire to that. This interferes with Then they a don't want it or needed, and I thought I had they to your kid. It's figured shut out and we can't break the fifty years year. This kid, barely right, there

striving to a chair to get even read his work. Actually I've never thought about this way. But could you tell me I've never thought blake what a drug lords progress of those diverse groups of people that never find together. Maybe may lead us in the thing about even doom How can we like? he does you how to be a drug attica. Teach you how to hide. You learn where I can see it as a gateway from that, as is now you know where the drugs are. now. You know where the drugs are being done now. You know who to go to get these things wrong and yeah yeah. I could definitely see that acceptance thing. That's a spot on. You know I I've toured probably ten fifteen twenty prisons and- and you know during my career and the thing that always pisses me off the most- is that alright, we have this response and we send people to jail and prison for things, and we have them here.

We have an attentive audience and its two p m. You have a bunch of men that are twenty to fifty years old and ruins sittin in their bad with their personal tvs, watch and more poet. You're, We are still shows on there's something: there's no classes, there's no recovery, there so little going on there to provide that value potentially when they get out to have a right to have a skill- and this happens in some places, but for the vast majority people just kind of sit and make it a little wreck time, they eat their meals and then they come back out and then we asked them to recover to have these types of goals and life we dont give them meaning to live in peace. sparing leave that type of society when we allow them to go out, and so, even when we do have this criminal justice response and we have them here, we just fail due to provide that hope for them. At that point, to provide something, I think, you're spot on your some spot on fitted out. You gotta give people something to believe and think about the thing,

say you value in your life if it you're your family, your job, you know whatever those are the things that you wake up in the morning. You get excited adieu and taking all that away or not provide that for someone when when they are struggling, of course, we're just gonna continue to fail year after year. On this that was jays conclusion when it came out of it in talking apparently parents, he your child, is now something their passionate about something they want, then need to help them find that right now doing sit there and lecture room, and you said like the teacher in the peanuts cartoon want long long long long, but if you can, actually motivate them. What is it you want? What what do you care about? Added and matter bits? drag racing or neurobiology whatever it is find something that is income paddle inconsistent with getting into drugs. When I went to high school, I played sports, and we had Have an eligibility card signed every week every take

had to sign it and they had decided on academics and citizenship. So You didn't behave, you get your ass now to class you couldn't that weak right, so just that in cities because I wanted to play that game so you'd think about well do this or that and yeah better. Not do that. You go to class with some eggert exactly like you figured out how much weed you could carry that you could eat the car and walk up to your window right yeah. I remember that highschool too, like yeah, we had seven seventeen, if I was not checked in with my football coach, the first time did it that week you were running gases and he said you know had some colorful words. How long and long in what body part you're gonna have to pick up off the ground. You do that two times a week, you're sit not that first

quarter ina. That was in imagine you know my dad. If I did talk to him and say my god, I yeah and I'm missing the first quarter of this game, because I couldn't get my ass out of bed. I the great is that incentive leisure. Now, it's just a little thing, just a little thing to get you there. turn loose to this. I want to know how you too met involved in this, because on the one hand, Gregg your log lurking and it wound joining the ride on crime in the texas public policy foundation. You were in force was thirty under thirty list for law and policy, all those the things and in clayton you are? The two fifteen winner If NBC last comic standing, yeah you've up first, a and bill bird release released The comedy album you bid on south myers and netflix tyler parries house of pain,

company central you guys couldn't have been onto more different pass I was very successful and very accomplished at what you do, but different orbits. Where did this orbit intersect at what point? Did you guys cross pass it intersect. I think, reagan, probably the best, but putting together this pact as an arm I desire to herself in we have done a couple of cars and we just gotta click, delete was he explain to me what he does and what he wanted to do this by way of life, Okay, like he quoted one of my job to me in it I was like it's not a war on drugs is a war on people, and I think we almost just got a bonded over that little idea and we'd probably talk for about. You know thirty. Forty minutes, on tat, idea alone and yeah from there. We but he would rather do me because this is Canada's bridge ass. Well,

What was it about it like a year ago we talk, and maybe only twenty, twenty two or twenty one. So your doctoral, we have the J in flom, who was one of the big producers at atlantic records and when it is passions in life is wrongful conviction, exoneration, and so we got connected because we have ends and directs to either arena governors whatever to try to help. It was certain haste, and we just continue to talk to each other about wanting to a pike- s like that and our big thing, as we don't want to have. You know just the the person likely that you know I'm a white dude from the suburbs. I had a very different, you know background with the war on drugs and things like that. We wanted someone with with lived experience. I could bring an entertainment ice. People really wanted to listen. and so we went on a search and really we we just were drawn to Clayton's, and you know kind of the way that he would bring in actual real social world situation since, and then bring humour to really reminds me a lot of like chapels com.

in a way that is kind of built where it says the out you lee Clayton, showing you think about things. It says that type a show and that's all we loved about aware, run that brought that on and so yeah likely said we china for awhile revived. Like the first thing I said, SARA light, I could have in my body like in high school college, like as far as I coming from different backgrounds. We had so many similarities with things like that in so that's really where it came from it's been. It's been a I a brief romance, but but a strong one here are so yeah we're at we've been gone. I noticed about a year now it's been great. The romance is your word yeah. They said broadway, but yeah, a one man I don't see why we have claimed so look. You shouted in one sense pretty well war on people, not a war on drugs? What needs to change if we're not

do? What we're doing an clearly, what we're doing is not working. Everybody wants to point to the pandemic now, because it was a major avert, but this was a problem way before the pandemic will go back to paris. Bishop in all this kind we're not gonna arrest our way out of this. So what should happening right now. What should we be doing so yeah? I mean I think there's a lot from you know from a public policy standpoint to try to kind of write some of the wrongs from the laws that are on the books and the things that we're able to do. You know you know are, are team works, a lot on on capitol hill and in states too, and you know right now, we're working on a bill called the equal act, which would you know, stop the crazy chasm between how we treat crack cocaine compared to powder.

cocaine which are essentially from a collage legal identical, except for a crack. The way that you bake, it allows it to be a much more pungent punch, cheaper, shorter lived in so that was essentially established after you know, in the in the eighties kind of seen, the crack cocaine epidemic. This is the way that we are going to get outta. There was a failure, so to make that a one to one in sight right sizing. Some of those laws were, do some of the mandatory minimums allow for judges to see a case and say instore minimum says you're supposed to go to ten years, but I think that you'd be much better in recovery and addiction, so you're going to go to jail for two. You know there's all these things, that we can kind of start picking at the edges around with the ways that law forspent able to you know do No not warrants based upon you know a minor drug boss and things like that. There's lots Civil liberty aspects of things, but when you're talking about-

actually winning this drug war. Overall from a policy standpoint, it is start to take a health care approach rather than a criminal justice approach to allow for exports to lead on this get people into recovery through methods that we know work and so yeah, one thing I do someone agree with. I don't like the way that has been implemented in practice. This kind of some of the. U know murkily says the tree since that we see that have been effective in places like europe in Switzerland, where he allow people to come in and and utilise yo I can wean them off in a certain way, but I think that will be failed at that is a public policy standpoint kind of going the other way and allowed for open your drug markets to proliferate in places like san francisco, in philadelphia baltimore, and I don't think that's right way either need a fine that balance between you, no actual, tough love and allowing for this and understand.

I mean that aspects, but we kind of go one way or the other. We either try to criminalize our way out of it or essentially ignore the problem, and it really is that tough love standpoint where we have carrots, we have sticks. You know you can't just you have to earn your way off of this, but also lead you through a place of empathy and understand that failure is a part of recovery. That's the one part: you see a lot of things that we try to do from diverse, but the first time to have a dirty earn urine task for the first time they miss a meeting throw them out on their ass or we throw them in prison, and these are the types of things that fail and what bring people back to relapse. So it's complicated, it's messy and but having that tough love aspect and trying to lead with policy and evidence, rather than kind of feel- and that's that's where we need to start at the very least yeah. Let's talk about that for me, because I am well aware of the sum of

safe zone practices and stuff in some of the nordic in european countries, and some of those that advocate for that in the united states and they site. The success levels in europe, too, certified doing that here, but there doing the same thing here shit, baby sister in law, between enabling and actually keeping people safe, and it has to do with um criteria? I guess if you're outcome criteria is we haven't had a single overdose, because we got lasers to shoot through here and see if there's fitness- and here we have people there to intervene if there is an overdose and so women having already in our clinic here. Ok, that's true, but we are not trying to get, people to use destructive drugs safely,

trying to get em off of the destructive drugs and my problem with some of these pro items. Is they don't have a strong enough exit strategy right, strategy to get a man to the safe zone, but they don't have a strong enough exit strategy to get him out into a program that can actually get them off of the drugs. This, where we have a social worker in the building. Well, yeah. I got it, but there is not really a strong enough exit re up to get them out of the safe zone in two rehab and they say, Look at our criteria have single overdose and there people dying on the street, but they're not dine and here well, that's the rendering to the disease go along with the drugs as long as you don't die, on our turf. That's too me nodded solution and a day. What is switzerland I was yes,

they actually have where they get the people a job in the person has to go to work and there is more step might use it. The criteria is more the jews. Hey you, die as a very low water air like in ITALY. There very much deeper than how looking people that, where we look at em like near the outcasts of society, yeah their goals goals. There are recovery, and to move on, and I think the goals here, those are not the same goals and actually kind of look at where large european countries were prior to try new bring these the policies and their doing they were doing what you know. San Francisco, in other places, are doing essentially just having safe zones in enabling but it actually didn't get to the underlying root causes until they started getting you no more intentional treating people and we need them off. The ultimate goal is to have less addiction to have people recover, fathom thriving jobs, not just two

now have someone die here. Kinda reminds me of like the parent that everyone you in high school, that loud everyone to drink at their house and then it was like right, you're, safe here for the next four hours, but on Europe after that, like it's our really hoping your enabling a problem, instead of actually trying to get to that route, cos having those interactions between you know: addiction, specialists and doctors and social workers and putting in safe environments great, but it's kind of like with prisons like art, you have these people here. You have this captivated audience what's the next step and we're not doing that next step here and it's looked at as empathy, and I it's coming from a lot of the times, a good place of empathy to try to help people, but were really not providing that you need I stopped doing the behavior you're doing, or else this is only going to get worse and yeah. I it's it's just it's it's a tough road, but yeah. That's what we need to do or not do it's based on the predicate, though, like the parent who says well, if my child, to going to drink I'd rather drink here: will that's a big enough

of your aunt had not should be your uncle. That's a big if you know so you gotta say if my kids going to drink, are you giving that up if your kids going to drink at fourteen, we are saying here any safe zones? If you're going to do drugs were less not just accept the predicate too at her bosses if you're going to do rush. Well, let's not accept that you're just going to do drugs. What have you don't? What? offering you as an alternative to that answers. Nothing I mean you're it. you're you're, almost you're, saying that this is this. Behavior is ok and yours, and not providing an actual passed away for men. So why wouldn't aid drinking DR later on essential you're, getting rid of tacit agreement. This is fine, if I could do it here Can you it anyway? We are. Why not, and then you and then have a lack of a law enforcement approach when you're not doing so you're in these open air drug marketing you're doing that. But it's not like there's enforcement b

on these areas, to actually help keep places clean, and you know the thing that they're not doing as well, and you know a lot of the places like in switzerland they're actually providing medical care through providing the methadone or potentially sometimes you know heroin- are the actual drug, a lot of the root causes of crime or people trying to keep up with the two three hundred dollar habit in that? again to that they're bringing their own drugs there to essentially use in a certain way, but there still having to rob deal prostitute whatever else to get the financial means to get that, and so you're you're not actually tackling allow he's of his underlying problems are just kind of being a safe space for a couple hours than all. The other problems still exist in just I don't see how that's gonna be effective, long term it from the family. Standpoint idea with a lot of these families, have a heroine attics in the Emily and they'll tell you look

we want them died under a bridge, but if we, let come home and we go to sleep. They will come at our room, they'll, all steel, everything we are now take her credit cards out of our wallets they'll, take money jewelry and go out and turn it into drugs, because we are if your seriously addicted you're gonna do whatever it takes to get that next fix, because you're trying to avoid being deathly deathly ill. So what do we tell those families and they say well address There will be in jail that, under a bridge they can't come home. I don't want him under bridge where they're gonna get beaten, rape robbed killed whatever either in jail? At least I know where they are well. I suppose there's something to that, but giving somebody's hard to the car. So mom doesn't have to worry is not the objective of incarcerating people right.

They're gonna do drugs while there in jail and be the minute they get out there going wrong back into the system, they were doing drugs with, or so, let's be specific. If we're going to spend the next fifty years focused on something water. This three or four priorities that the policy needs to focus on for the next fifty years? I think that, biggest thing is to remove the incentives that kind of proliferate, the drug war first off when you're talking about kind of just big government and continue to turn the wheels, and so when the arms are, we have right now, and you see this all throughout the drug war is that there is in centralisation to continue to make these low level arrests through either grant programme observe, or whatever makes you look good. The more you rescue happen were prosecutions. You get on these and we go after a lowest common denominator, casino, the easiest cases and so kind of removing some of those incentives away, saying that good policing doesn't look like the amount of arrest you have to put good

prosecuting, doesn't mean how many convictions you're getting, and so we have to really divorce those things away from each other. So that's one policy standpoint, we really need a head on and then I think a lot of this is taking a lot of the resources in dollars that were putting in just locking people up in trying to find those all turns and setting up actual state wide health care centres that can come together with law enforcement and actually try to bring people out with checks and balances, incentives and carrots and sticks, and we should not be ineffective in minor little notes, at ease and things like that, but doing that unexpanded level. I think it would be helpful and then also kind of implementing some of these things in practice in a correctional facility. You know one of the so we ve been pushing for his new having some sort of medically assisted treatment within jails in prisons and because of the lack of correctional officers that, because the lack of resources

Sorry, really the the desire to even do any of this stuff people try to you know, try to get off her weaned drugs in jail in this horrific setting and when we should be trying to kind of help them bridge that, if we're going to have in this courses, well yeah. So I think that's something that we really really need to start. Looking on, you seen a lot of effectiveness and are reducing overdose deaths, reducing addiction post release. I, if you're, able to kind of tackle that problem while they are incarcerated. If we're going to continue to incarcerate for these types of things and so those it? I think that the main ones looking and then a lot of its with social stigma with addiction. Still, I think, they're still crop again in a village nation People that that utilise drugs in this is behaviour that we don't want, but that doesn't mean people are evil if they, if they go through that, and so I think we're holy seeing you? No doubt for one of the things I that's been, actually, you know are positive.

Of the opium epidemic in federal epidemic is that it has been hitting different social areas. It's been hitting rule places so people that were kind of at a distance from the drug war for a long, long time or not, Seeing it face to face understand. Well, that's tommy, our neighbours. Kid he's not a bad kid. He just he's a screw up here, ernie messed up here and has gone into some staff, or I know Bob lost job or I lost my job or I got strung out. it's. You know with a busted me and now you know my doctors and prescribe like you kind of see at first hand, and I think that changes people a little bit and so reducing that stigma, my I think will be Major aspect were slowly starting to see that, but those are kind of the the biggest from a policy perspective that I could see is much more investment as a health care issued and then a criminal justice went to removing those incentives for the criminal justice system to continue. For an office clayton. What do you think people need to hear that? drugs- that's gonna, get them to be drawn.

on toward some kind of help, instead of hide from people, we're out there trying to help. What do you think people need to hear that are on the drugs last as a tough one, but I think they need a loaded, his his people, that actually care about them and There are those people out there. They want to see them a function, a member of society, so yeah- I don't really, I don't really know where to begin. I think like even even I have people in my family, like you, don't know we we want them to get the help. It's like you said you bring them into your house and they can be good for max. Maybe two weeks before stuff starts trending up, miss it and everybody's gonna turn on them and that's why they're out on the street ass, why they cast out, but I think that these people are paid it. You know I want to see them do well, but is I what I hear they gotta be dead. Bob

They gotta they gotta be right bottom before they even star seeking help where they gotta get to such a low point. Did you know it is sandy. That's the way it is, but that's what I hear so. I think the best thing. people can do that. Aren't on drugs is be there and help guide these people when they're trying to come back into society and not just look at them like they're, the lowest pizza yeah, I think, for ease its training so that they have value and that they can provide something and actually showing that inaction. You know I I this always sticks out to me when, when I have visited the prison there is a guy, those out of it was either you know. String robberies are largely the lot of it was underlying was drugs that kind of keep that have it going and he finally got enrolled in a class while he was in prison and he said something and the instructor he said you know said like: oh your ear, you're, really smart, you and he's like that's the first time ever heard anyone say that, and he

in like a model and made since then I think he's release at this point was something else it happened. But I do think it is that value aspect that people don't see their value once again to this process in their living day in and day out, just gonna keep this fixed So can we provide you with some value either through family reunification through maintaining and earning you know living accommodations, either through worker treatment, and things like that. I think earning those types of things, not only you can bring you out and gave you that incentive to stay within this better environment, but it brings pride to you a brings something like. There's nothing more private than doing well at your job being able. Buy a house or by that new car, unlike striving for those goals and earning them, you know that you see it. I would like that win the lottery. You know millions and millions of dollars and in their bank wrapped in on their ass like rubio later, because it didn't earn it. They didn't actually do that blood, sweat and tears. I clean how

amazing, was it to probably open for chappelle or when said, when you'd been all those hours before going into shitty comedy clubs across the country. Opening acts all that open. My stuff like to finally like hit that point peak. That's why adders like that, you, like alike I've made it like an that means so much more than light, Here's your warder, your plane deformed and I didn't like it figured if yeah it's You saying that I think the thing that I would tell people that are addicted is kind of learning from DR phil. Just now, Allow me this in here is figure out. Would you want to do figure What you want to do where you want to be and is, is so many people who came from addiction that have gone on to be some of the most prolific writers actors, musicians. All types of you know Beautiful or has been created for people who, if we just The deadly work at they light will be viewed as so yeah find someone could come

It was deadly there. For me, you guys are hit not at the spot on because I've talked to so many hard core addicts. The first thing that jumps out at me is They think they're living the life their worthy of if their process putting themselves or their living on the street they have based for a month. They ve got headline sore. Whatever it is. You talk to him and you listen to their internal dialogue? If you can get them to tell you what they're telling themselves you don't ask yourself: why they're doing it, you ask yourself why not because they're telling themselves that their worthless human beings and if they overdose so what it's no big loss to their family to society or whatever anytime, you start here,

somebody you need to do this. You need to do that. You need to do this. Defensiveness goes up really high. Buddy. Have you approach them? like both of you just said it. If you approached them from a state point of saying hey, I love you, I care about you. You deserve better. I want trade, for you. I want help for you because you deserve it. You d of a better life. You deserve this help and then the focus has to be making them feel like there. worthy of receiving that help I get it how many of I've had attic sitting on stage with me, and I still up and say: let me ask you. than you're here right now with me on this day, he's, and you have the undivided attention of my

team over the last week and may now and all these people here. How do you feel about that and you would think they would say fortunate. I feel like I'm really in there spots invariably is I don't deserve it right not worthy of here with you, and there are ten thousand people want to be in this chair, I'm not worthy of being here. Somebody else should be here instead of me and somebody else. Team should have been working with an ear offering me this amazing rehabilitation, operative. pretty and all this professional helpin I don't deserve. It is clear to me the fundamental threatened you have to cross over. Is they have to decide, I am worthy of it, and I want to live up to that. If we spent fifty years, being these disenfranchise marginalized. No gold, no passion people to feel

worthy that they require more of themselves, and they deserve more of this life I think, would be further, along than we have been arresting them and lock him up for but they also. This were half a grandma that if we take it, all that time and effort and help them feel better. about who they were. Then you treat yourself better now that we're not doing there No it's exactly right and you know just like any war to be effective. You have to essentially turn your population or propaganda against the sentiment and that's what we ve done. Just vilify this popular asian and made them seem like their lesser than in that's been by practice. That's not you know. That's that's! Not a flaw in the system that by design, so they were able to increase sensor. So you can do all these things with civil ass. If forfeiture we take people stuff without convicted

a crime are, we are able to utilise. No knock warrant, essentially deprive people of these liberties because of this war, because drug addicts are bad and there villains, they are the enemy of this war, and we have done that. Oh over again, rather than saying this is a problem. This is some behaviour that we don't want in our society but the way we get out of this love empathy and value in these people round. The other way just like anything else. I mean think about no beating your case, spain, you're doing all these things to children. You know we will not accept like it's, not that it's not rocket science understand it's not anything different than than what you're saying just how you do parenting or being a teacher anything else, just teaching people how to be people and providing value in their lives. That's what we're supposed to do as society, and we have utterly failed this. You know elation, your se, six cops go. Do a marijuana buskins like really ex cop guys go, they don't say. You'll come in

you need six cops jack boots, covenants. The guy's got off room some ice cream or something like real when we talk about the the no knock warrants in how the main reason for them is because they don't want the criminals flesh in the drugs and unlike if you got enough drugs that you could just flesh it. You didn't have them was drugs. You weren't, the king, pin life were my best friend is wrong? Why wikimedia creates great curiosity about in florida? Landed there, private plane. They said we got a tip that you got drugs and they searched him and they said well, I'm sorry miss what you're going to have to go with us found a quarter of an hour to marijuana near over here he said a Coronel else. Let me tell you

The korea's a weed. I consider myself a weed, he probably didn't know he had exactly. He did Wood himself out of his ass to jail in two and a half hours late for his show at the jail was sign, said free, the tater, gov au, yeah, awesome yeah me down accomplished thing for the long for law enforcement, their alike is that we really want yeah and as a comedian, you just want to make it. The usual n n n n run like you said he knew that amount was. Nothing like spilled in the bottom of his bag when right now, I would say, is actually an illicit you. are so on point about this and I'm am not somebody says hey. We do need to overlook this. We should not overlook people

that are on drugs or addiction because it ruins their life and it spread send it ruins family lives and children wide at being raised by grandparents. There's a gap with grandparents using children of drug addicts and is so much is lost and all but I'm am telling you we are not going to arrest our way out of this. We are going to incarcerate our way out of this, we ve got to have a strand egi and the philosophy and most people get clean on the seventh or eighth attempt and failure. It is very high because we need to improve our interventions. We need to improve our treatment and it also, emerge with the better. Somebody feels about themselves. The better they're gonna rate themselves and the like.

Their willing to settle for it starts there. I don't know any policy maker, I dont, know any policy. I've read that is all end on hoping these people believe and who they are again and getting them back into society, and that way I hear it talked about what I don't see it implemented and if you don't put the funds behind it, you might as well go talk see yourself out. No woods, you guys are drawn attention to this. The right way, and god bless you for doing it out, that is the lack of real man regime will listen to back and help you guys in any way going forward. I hope you'll, let me know- and I hope we can talk about this again. If there are things we can do to draw attention to this man, a man you just let me know, put me

and coach, because I think you guys are going. It is the right way and doing it with a right spirit near not been defensive our people that are on drugs, ear, distortion, out the realities of what it takes to get this done. I commend John what you're doing a monitor, promote your pod cast every chance I get when we're done with some of those stories in cases I'm going to you guys to come on and help me deal with some of these families in some of these cases, where I understand there are people out there, the gear with all of that and yeah trust me. I got a laundry list of action items so we'll let let's keep talking. There are some people that you really need to get out and some other items that I think we could really collaborate on so yeah. It won't be the last time you argue here, for he had done with your audience ass, well same here. I'm proud to know you guys you're a lot of fun. Any talk about things that matter. That's what I love to do and once again I am indebted to jason flop. Dammit

this area introduced me to the right people on the ride issue, so I appreciate gas. Thank you for your time. Let's do this again. Ok, gas, illumination, occupant, really prophetess upon the slot. We'll talk again thanks.