Language supposedly has all these rules. Both of us never have to think about those rules but the hidden. and of language guides nearly every interaction we have other people, determined whether we can act and attain confuse insult or dazzled the people we communicate with in radio link. The new podcast do only go and crooked media weeks, or how language shapes our world and how our world shapes linkage. I I'm amabel yet an audio journalists in James beard award winning writer. I am in all its complexity and its felicity. The way we can use it to create both distance and understand. Want to be your guy join us as we take you on a linguistic journey, crooked media in go. This is radio starting november fifteenth on your favorite fuck assets.

The welcome to pod save america. I'm John favour, I'm dan pfeiffer. On today's show. The January sixth committee highlights how trump's attempted coup led to threats of violence against anyone who refused to go along strict rules,

melissa, murray joints to talk about the supreme court's terrible gun decision and z door. The host of cricket media's new series, mother country radicals, joins to talk about political radicalization in the seventies and today, but first just a few housekeeping notes. You'll hear dan's interview with militia in a bit, but all the strict scrutiny hosts are also doing an emergency pod today to provide in depth analysis of the Supreme court's gun decision. So you can check that out in the strict scrutiny feed right after you finish. Listening to us and if you haven't heard this year's crooked media pride fund will support three incredible organizations. The Transgender education, network of texas, trans lifeline and equality Florida all three organizations provide community building, gender, affirming and life saving resources to the queer and transgender com.

pretty all your long, so we are very excited to be helping out to learn more an pitch in please visit crooked dot com. Slash pride fund are, let's get to the news unless we pursuit of insurrection. The january six committee revealed how Donald trump pressured mike pence to go along with his coat on tuesdays episode. The committee revealed how trump and his accomplices pressured state election officials from arizona to georgia to go along with his crew. Today's episode, we are recording this thursday morning, will be about how trump pressure the department of justice to go along with his coup and a recurring theme that come up in these

last to hearings at least, is that anyone who stood up to trump anyone who refuse to go along with his illegal plan wasn't just harassed. They were threatened, the families were threatened, their lives were put in danger. That was true of pence. It was true of georgia, secretary of state brad reference burger, a republican trump voter who testified the people broke into his sons, widows huh, to harass her. It was true of arizona how speaker rusty bowers, another republican, trumped supporter, who testified that his wife and gravely ill daughter to worry about what will happen on saturdays, because that's the day that people show up outside their home to threaten them and call bowers pedophile, and it was especially true of georgia, election workers, shea moss and her mother, Ruby freeman, whose lives were threatened to the point where mosses grandmother was ambushed and freeman had to leave her home. Here's a clip of their testimony. Alot of threats,

I wishing death upon me and telling me that you know I'm I'll be in with my mother, saying things like be glad twenty twenty. In that lighting twenty, this effect my life in a major way. every way because alive. I've lost my name and I've lost my reputation of lost my sense of security, because a group of people, starting with a forty five and his allies rudy giuliani decided to escape got me and my daughter shape to push their own lies about how the presidential election was stolen. Then your reaction to tuesday's testimony.

It just such an important reminder that what politicians say matters right not just troll winger, wounding the limbs are trying to go viral or excusing your own loss. It had it matters in people. People died because of it. People's lives were threatened, and the capital was ransacked and. I think that's one thing: these hearings have done masterfully, and importantly, which is remind us of what happened because of the big lie because I think, because it such as this In a traumatic, unique experience, sort of like numbed ourselves to it over the last year and a half in weather The footage from that first hearing or hearing about how close the mob mike pence or hearing from these election workers and in the Republicans in the way of trumps insurrection. What

met for them is a reminder of just how dangerous a game the republican party is playing because almost to a person, they are continued to push the lie that led to this violence and these threats continue to enable the behaviour and the people who had to leave this violence and these and it is happening right before us. I think it's very important for all of us to recognise just how dangerous it is listening to chaise. Testimony, in particular was probably I'd, say the angriest and and and most upset I've been since january. Sixth and I couldn't shake it, and I was trying to figure out why- and I think a big part of it was hearing how frightening the threats were. A big part of it was hearing how racist threats were, but I think what may meet most upset was that these two women were just doing everything that we

want good citizens to do in this country like they are they weren't just voters. They were poll workers, they weren't there to swing the election to Democrats or republicans they just they just wanted to make the election work and they just they just wanted to make sure that every vote was counted, and maybe that's because Parents and grandparents grew up at a time when they were allowed to vote and they realise that people fought and died for that right, and so they wanted to do the work to protect it. And now these monsters have tried to scare them And scare others away from performing one of the most basic obligations of citizens in a democracy and look like I get that politics feels awful right now.

You know I like people are angry and their upset and and they're just done with it. But this is exactly what trump and those mega assholes want. They want us to be angry. They want us to be cynical. They want us to give up. They want us to turn against each other and that's how they went. That's how they went, and I don't think we should make it easy for them because fuck them. So you know if you, if you want to keep these mag assholes out of power and stop them from fear. with our elections, go to vote, save america, dot, com, slash mid terms, and you can sign up to do more than just vote. You can volunteer, you can organize, you can donate. We have plenty of stuff for you to do, and also ah,

our our our friend is some of his was the lawyer for for shane, Ruby and that he was alerting me to to gofundme links that I tweeted out this morning and which are links and and and gofundme account to help them put their lives back together. So if you want to help shea and Ruby, if you, if you were moved by their testimony- and you can- I I tweeted out this morning- will tweeted out again at the end of the episode they've already raised over four hundred thousand dollars, which is which is amazing and but also you know, nothing can think. replace what what they ve lost, that sense of security and as reducing her reputation, but anyway it was. It was fucked up. I, I want to come back to this. This recurring theme of threats and harassment toward anyone who stood up to trump, but I also want to get your reaction to enter the committee's focus on v, the mega plot to send faked

electors to congress and in their decision to play the audio of trump's call with rapids burger, where he asked him to find eleven thousand seven hundred votes. And what would you think, the legal and political significance of laying out all that testimony and evidence was on tuesday full. Let's start with the reference burger call where we now from previous has made. The troll had been told repeatedly shown data, and otherwise there that the votes that he was asking rapenburg undefined did not exist. He knew We clearly have the knowledge based on what we know that he was asking reference burger to commit fraud on his behalf in order we can't in the presidency, and that is under investigation right now by the fort and kind district attorney. There's an paneled grand jury. This is area of real potential legal jeopardy for trump in his aids, and we have an arctic, and this is a tape. Damning as any they came out in the water networks? It is. We know whether there will be no lawyers.

we'll have to engage result, make a decision about whether you can prove a crime, but from a point of from pure point of guilt moral, political, historical. This is smoke it. They must smoking gun with. We had Can we had it for awhile, broadly in american history right? It is like we here on tape. Committee. Crime, no subtlety, no plausible deniability. He is doing it What we mean when we were in oakland, you know it. debating with Melissa about, like you know, trumps intent and have to prove what was on his mind and he did. He really believe that there is or fraud into. Do you really believe he was just availing himself of all his options and did he know it was illegal? But when you hear me say two reference but hey man, just finally, the votes It's not someone who's like hey. I think there was fraud, we're going to need to do something where you'd take it to court know about it. Just buy me the votes. Man just find me. The fucking votes, it was interesting that there's the ravens recall

obviously, as you mentioned there, that that that Fulton county investigation going on but the justice department, just delivered a bunch of grand jury subpoenas on wednesday to state officials were connected to the fake elector plot in other states. as well right absolutely, and so that's the other part of this, and I think that is incredibly critical. As the as these hearings have gone on. There has been this growing focus on Trumps, knowledge and practice patient in a plan to said fake electors to congress to create a fig leaf in order to overturn the election That is a mean. The word figure is very critical. This is a conspiracy to commit fraud. Once again, Doris former judge, somewhere in america, is going to make a decision about whether you could actually convict a person of the. It means we have, but let's be clear what he was trying to do here

and this. So this is an air. It is its trump knew about it. It's aids knew about it and they participated and that's a big deal and what's funny about this is this is not a there's, no real mystery to what happened here like so. As you mentioned, is department justice sent for for green jurisprudence. one of the guys who receive a subpoena is a trump campaign aid who is caught on video. Working passing along the fake. The slate of clinical fake electors and he's doing that wearing a I'm campaign sweatshirt with his name on it, and how did how did the committee get this video? You know or secret source of these. Have you know the arizona republican party tweeted it out, so they did this happening in full view, for we want to see in the question is, would like his will The legal consequences are absolutely should be political consequences. We happened to hear whether you know

we also decided wiggle but we'd, be they tried to defraud the country to put in place a person who was the election. That is an absolute We met is opening a case that is very clear. Everyone has testified. Everyone has admitted to it, and can democrats therefore make the case freeze present. One of the many reasons why this political party, that is all bored with said scheme which is protected. The people guilty of it from any sort of legal political. An ability should ever be in power again, and that's all that's the real question here and I think the political consequences are key too, because I don't want us to get so hung up on the legal implications that look at some point. Some jury is going to hear this evidence and make a decision, but there's a much bigger jury that gets to make a decision in twenty. Twenty two and twenty twenty four and that's everyone whose fucking registered to vote. So I do want to lose sight of that because, like we can't necessarily control what an actual jury does or prosecutors

as we can hope we can follow along and stuff like that, but we can't control it. We can control what all of us do about this, who we tell about it, who we try to persuade about or who we try to get out of. And speaking about, let's go to. The committee also show text where I was content. Senator RON Johnson staff tried to hand, might pence a package of fake trumpet actors to which pensive staffer responded in the text do not give that to him What's a gray s great next in the text in the text, do not simply text about, argues me excuse me. I have a fake electors for the coup. Who, where can I deliver the fake electors for the coup? I give them to the vice president. No do not give the vice president, the fake electors for the coup vice president is anti coup Let us please directly messages to the group thread. Titled too I mean,

do you think of legal implications for johnson or or back to the political conversation? Would you focus on this issue? If you were the democratic senate candidate running against him in november, he is up in his views. May be the most vulnerable republican senator up right now I mean I understand why we in everyone listening a memory, torture or so obsessed with the idea of legal consequences for tromp in the people involved. In this, like it like the very clearly crimes were committed here and it like for the system to feel like it works. The people who implement a vile at attempted, violent overthrown government should face legal consequences. We are also your visit here here. Look like it's a crazy theory at our. It's only get out there and agree, but we also should recognise that donald trump raw johnson, rich white. will hopefully connected men in america tend to face scrimp. Put a little

consequences at a much lower rate than the rest of the world and so is very possible. They're not gonna, facing the consequences there, but that doesn't mean pre earlier point RON Johnson, who is up for reelection, this fall into state the Joe Biden, one ron Johnson, least popular centres. America should not face political consequences with it. Now I dont think the crux of the campaign against fraud shouts. It should about one of his aids trying to give papers to aids my pencil by his continued advocacy for the big lie. His willingness to in two and by a violent overthrow of a country is example. It's one data point in a larger argument about his bag of extremism. That is out of touch with the country is out such what was caught, and so I think this is another way in which to make the larger argument against RON Johnson, which he often makes for us every time he opened his mouth. Yeah I mean you know, I he's he's one of my nominees for america's dumbest senator. I realise there some stiff competition in that

and that company. If we don't know we don't you want this lecture governor really reorder that, as there is a real contenders, all the ballot, this fall, but I do think you can make a case that you know RON Johnson ran as this businessman who is going to go clean up washington, and now he can't focus on problems that people care about, because he's too busy trying to keep donald trump in power and kissing, trump's, ass and being as extremist as possible he's become a way out of step with wisconsin voters. I that's the case that he broke his one term limits pledge, so he could stay in the senate to help donald trump steal the next election right. That's how that's what he cares about. John trump doesn't care about wisconsin. So let me ask you: what do you make of bread rations, burger and rusty bowers ravensburger? Clearly, isn't a trump fan any more, but he did support the voter suppression legislation. The georgia repub.

in the past after twenty twenty bowers not only supports that kind of legislation, he said after the hearing he still might vote for donald trump in two thousand and twenty four. What the fuck rusty bowers, who looks like harris needs to play you in the version. I did. I miss the first hour of the hearing. I sat down and look what is at harris doing, but ever does like ours, devours whether one of em look, I I give a lotta. I give a shit leeway to like we gotta get Harris we'll know, republicans who hold positions that I abhor but have decided on the issue of donald trump and the future of democracy, to be on the right side of history and I kinda thought that rusty bowers was headed there and then he was like nah. I still might vote for him and I'm like what are you doing man? Are you doing? What do you think about that? I think that, like the color grey, there are fifty it's a mega like that. For us, it is also the purchase degrees array of real

yeah shooting for the episode title. I didn't think we didn't think we could do that, but this is what happens when I do a lot of my pint for like twelve hours in advance and then that guy get wedded to a really bad joke, and I can't let it go. I laughed that's good. That's all I was open for, even if it's a pity laugh I'll take it I mean I'm an easy laugh, I sure will be the only two of us talking. Children of you did laughing super fucking awkward. Okay, you are right, like we brad reference, burger bowers about BP about their a handful of republicans who deserve credit for the courage they showed at this moment of decision entwined like ab lily, and I am very glad that both dead, if it's a tributary, brad reference burger as secretary of state of georgia or Jody heist. The big lie believer that Donald trump endorsed grand rapids burgers better, but you know what's better than bread reference burger, a Democrat, the justice board, voter suppression laws. You know what's better,

then rusty, bowers, a democrat speaker of the house in arizona, and so just it's worth. These are good reminders that it is possible for republicans to show courage. We should applaud them when they do but our democracy cannot depend on a small handful of courageous republicans ways that, ultimately that's You don't even the brave republicans, a perverse oppression, even the problems, wouldn't let Donald trump steal the last election may help when the next one and which is why really. The only way to deal with this sort of behaviour is to beat the republicans even the ones who were courageous and twenty. Twenty, that is, that is the only option we have. Yeah we have. A great Democrat would be a better secretary of state than brad rapids berger, be when she been right on pod, save america. She just got. She got the nomination for secretary of state. There go go vote for b, but no luck. I I actually don't like. Whenever I see these debates about. Is this republican?

in whose turned on trump a hero or not like. I don't find that the debates very useful to start like ranking what their specific level of political courage is to figure which she which shade of mega very good. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. There you go. What look I think the defining issue of our time is whether you support people who want to overturn our elections or whether you're willing to fight those people. I detest voter suppression policies. I also think that throwing out votes is is a different and even bigger threat than making it harder to vote. It is an existential threat to every other issue that we care about. We have people thrown out votes and installing people in power. None of the other issues we care about can make progress on its all done. At that point, so if you're willing to fight the people who don't even want to bother counting the votes you can be on our team will you and everything else later today,

focus a lot. I don't look. This is a tendency in the media gets the. Does this to you focus on individuals. You focus on individuals, because that's where the drum on the character and the story is, and is this person here it as this person have cards, they not there's a much bigger issue at stake here right, which is the pro democracy coalition that elected Joe Biden in twenty twenty has to remain together in twenty twenty two and twenty twenty four, and that coalition is very big and very diverse, politically ideologically in every every which way and there's a lot. I disagree with with other people in a coalition about which equally people the further eu drift to the right and that coalition. But again we have to all hang together or else there is no democracy. So, like the ended that who, who gets like a merit badge and the republican party, I dont really care much about

I mean it there's just such a it's been such a dumb binary debate throughout the trump years, where it's, whenever there is republican, who shows courage and does something that opposing trump or whatever they're standing up to the insurrection that if you praise them We were therefore endorsing everything ever stood for rate is opposing, spraying, temporary ally in the fight for democracy and when you can praiseworthy efforts worker for his courage, and also support his timid opponent in the fall right, you can save some of these. Never tromp, republicans or you know, are helpful in me. in the case to other another from recover converters without saying that with the network at a point them to our cabinet and they're, going to be the nuclear is the democratic party. Like that's just a fake stupid debate. We can have a little nuance to this reporter's love this because they live to call people who participate in politics, hypocrites, and so you get

reporters were like new liberal hero is changing its like no one, fuckin called her a hero, she's doing some good work on the trump stuff. She says she standing up and she should have set up she showing some political card eight she's. No one spoke in here. Oh I get it. You ve been offline alive, if you will- and there are a lot of people on twitter who are calling her a hero, we're not a lot trust me. I've been out well, I've been out of the country the last few weeks and a lot of Democrats are calling her europe, okay, well, no one not Please tell me no elected democrat, but you can actually can also be heroic and brave in this instance: renegotiation, tremendous courage and his career on the line you once again. If we don't support that Brazil, I hate this debate has aggravated. The us is one of the main

Likewise, when these hearings is that trumps coup didn't succeed, because a relatively small group of political leaders and election officials held the line and the headline against tremendous pressure from trump and and violent threats from some of the porters, these were people who were democrats, republicans nonpartisan pull workers like shea moss, even trump supporters like ours, and I think you can argue that at least for trump and his magazines, that twenty twenty two is about. Making sure that that group of thy partisan and non partisan political leaders and election officials is replaced with maggie realists. Do you think enough? People understand? That's the strategy, and those are the stakes during the hearing- is helping more people understand that I do think the hearing is helping with that, but I do not think it clearly enough. People do not know that those are the stakes they do now fully understand just how dangerous well thought out and well funded. The republican plan to take over the election apparatus in this country is.

I am not here to promote what did aim here, I worry about your your congress. And with the joint assembly are not only the big lie around it. I was now to ask about about us government offline in your bank and a very good interview with jennifer senior from electrical wrote. A vast any profile us debate and who is, as she said, obsessed with pod save america, as he should be, bite gets into just how he is using it platform to organize a precinct by precinct takeover of the election apparatus in this country, so that at every level, the republicans, can make sure that there are no bread reference progress, a rusty, bowers or non party election workers to stand the way of the next insurrection, and that is happening in you can, in its very clear at most Democrats do not know that with you in a country. Do none of that? You can see that in the discrepancy in funding from report can secretary of candidates in democratic secretary seek in its stead courtesy and funding between what republican and right wing super packs.

putting into ever either party wide efforts to recruit an army of poor workers and the in a very smart grid through its efforts by by groups like run for something others both pale in comparison to the funding sources that the right has that there is a asymmetry in this and if we do not catch up quickly, we're going to find ourselves in a very different situation. After the twenty twenty four election, yes and one place, I do think the committee might be making progress as a views about trump. There was a new un aids poll out yesterday of new Hampshire voters, who say they're likely to vote and the twenty twenty four republican primary. So last october, this same poll showed trump in the lead, with forty three percent to santas with eighteen percent and everyone else in single digits. This week's poll sure run to scientists in the lead, with thirty nine percent trump, with thirty seven percent. In my pants, my pants more than doubling his past, showing from four percent to nine percent huh,

he says govern watch out. My dear, how much you tribute that movement of these hearings will look. John no poles ever been wrong. We should this one individual one, I'm this wine, nepal, look of this sample of just a few. New Hampshire, voter, that accident, like a sample size, Report should be treated as if the top lions are inscribed on a stone tablets sent down from the mount. We should take it as the gospel I have no idea of his pole is right. It is if you look at the overall trend of some republican primary points. Two things are clear: large plurality of republicans, someone other than donald trump to run in twenty four. Rhonda Santa's has been growing in sort of every subsequent pull to the point where he is you may be perhaps in new hampshire, bold know when the more pulling has done has overtaken trump. While people are pretty cited about this, but I think we should not pattern.

on the back, the better, the republic, others have ceded, you know have come to So what's happened, this country decided to replace a dumb insurrectionists with a less dumb insurrectionists like that's, not gonna, think that's a great thing right, we're just swapping one authoritarian for the other, either There are two lets for the sake of argument say this pole is accurate and they trump is suffering in the eyes of repair in voters. The hearings are obviously why that's happening, and I think there are two sort of reasons that undergo that. The first is it's bad for trial. Troubles in the news. It reminds people of all his flaws here. That is be has benefited greatly. from being essentially silent for the last year and a half like that is your very particularly the rubber converters right here. it's good his staff and wanted to take his twitter feed, from him. For years the twitter feed has been taken away and they were correct. It was. It was a good thing for yes

And then the other reason is to the extent donald trump is back in the news. He is talking about two things: the past and himself add it clean and run to santas is does not. He has reducing interest and he's in the news is talking about the future. It's a dark, dystopian, bigoted authoritarian future, but it is the future and he's not really talking about himself, and so is backward, looking and self obsessed in. So you can see why that could make some republican voters either I came last or think he is a less viable cannot take on Joe Biden and twenty four in some it's possible. Just the mere focus on trump from this committee is bad for trump, both with the public writ large and republican voters more, perhaps more specifically. Well then, I think I think one big question to think about before we move on is what all this means for the rest of the maga republicans in the maga movement and

You point out, you know just if, if somehow trump losers, but we get round dissenters, that's not exactly a happy ending here, so and I think all this brings us back to the the recurring theme of of threats and violence, that, with that we ve heard in this house- things. You know in addition to what we heard on tuesday, We also learned the maggots supporters threaten the lives of republican committee member Adam kissing her his wife in their five month old baby. We also saw a new campaign at wherefore or missouri governor in current senate canada, air cretans, holds a shotgun and encourages people to go rhino hunting. Republican in name only that's rhino florida, senator rick Scott gave a speech over the weekend where he said that the american left has become quote the enemy within, and you know maggie publicans from supporters, Dan Crenshaw John Cournand were booed, confronted and called traders at the texas republican convention, where the state party adopted a platform that declares Joe Biden victory.

ill legitimate says that homosexuality is an abnormal lifestyle. Choice says the voting rights act of nineteen. Sixty five should be repealed and that texas should hold a vote in two thousand and twenty three on seceding from the union up I guess the question is: what do we do about a political movement that has resorted to threats of violence and harassment, particularly one that is one that has largely taken over one of our two major bullet the parties I mean this is this seems to be where we are right now, a large factory. The republican party has been taken over by a movement that is doing ever more extremist. By the day, this has been a trend. That's been happening for a long time, yet this is that the root of a lot of the tea party response the election, the first black president. It was at the core of donald transport, tourism, Donald trump, canada, see the big lie

a etc, and it's all happening- and I think, over the course of much of that decade and a half of time. There was this thought in hope that republicans would solve this among themselves that there would be some courageous republican who would stand up to forces and we move the party in a different direction. There is you sort of this hope that maybe the vote? Would you a two thousand and sixteen if trumpet lost election. Maybe they were doing twentieth trump had lost overwhelmingly and that the party could look inward in there there are obviously elected republicans who would prefer that their party not like this, but none of them have the courage to say anything about, and so they continued to coddle it. In even benefit from it, because they need this. The sort of the enthusiasm induced out turn out that comes from inviting this dangerous fringe into their rapidly shrinking

base and you can see why they do it because they keep getting away with right. Think about it, like the republic, president incited a violent riot on the capital, What has happened to him since then? Nothing? What about his party that help spread? That light? it is used by the like their favorite when the house of the centre right now. So why would they do anything different? They think it is in their report. interest to welcome this? This extremist, violent fringe into their party to elevated and economy, and the only thing we can do here is not an easy answer- it's not comforting is we. We d, pro democracy majority in this country has to beat them. We have to beat him again and again and again till they recognise that we have. Not going to do the right thing on their own. They gonna do in their political interest, we have to show them, that there is that they will pay a political price for acting like this for pushing this conspiracy theories for

sanctioning this violence and until we do that, we're going to be kind. We're going to continue to be in this exact hinge point for democracy and so that this it's not easy. It's not pleasant is not comforting, but we have to make them payable if the price were, and until they're going to keep doing this until they do- and I think the the fundamental challenge here, particularly in this election- is you know you say we we, as in people who are very engaged in politics, people listen to this ass people who watch MSNBC people who go volunteer, organise donate most people in this country are not engaged in politics. Most people don't pay close attention to politics, and I think the question is: how do you get people to care about this? This threat to democracy? That's out. There more than they care about inflation, because in their lives there seeing the cost of gassing groceries go up, and they may think that these threats of- I are something that happened somewhere else that they that its

being overblown that its exaggerated that bit, you know, politics has been screwed up for years anyway in washington's a mess, What I really care about is the fact that I can't afford something I think are you know week we can all be mad. That and role our eyes about that. But it's the truth of what people are feeling and I think it its incumbent on us to try to persuade them otherwise to persuade people that this is actually a big fucking deal. In fact, the biggest fucking deal and I think I very much agree with you, but I do want to serve home in on one point, which is, I dont, think its? Do you? about inflation, or do you care about democracy? I think we're gonna lose that battle and it's not how people's brains were. They don't make political decisions and silos like I'm in a care about my wallet from the care about my culture, on the care about my country on the care about my kitchen table issues. It's not it's much more nuanced and that here,

The question, who do you think, is going to solve the channel is facing its country. Where there's a gas prices high represses income inequality, is it going to be a party is obsessed with bans, bullying, Trans, kids, refining the last election believes in conspiracy theories them. Can it be people who will fight for you right now that we have to make is about who is going to fight for you and who is fighting for themselves? and are you do that we have a chance and it is heart like dumb upset, that there is a magic solution there, some secret message. There is a lot of political headwinds by the we We have to tell us more about who the republicans are in part of that story should lead people down the accurate, true path that this party

I give a shit how high your gas prices are right. They do not care they care about themselves and their power, and that's that's an easier. That's an open door to push on right. There. Yeah, because, like you know just to give you guys again, a preview of this season of the wilderness, which will be on September and I've I'm going to do. A bunch of focus groups have already done vocals in virginia and end in pittsburgh, and when you talk about issues that matter, you know, Fortunately, there were voters in the in the pittsburgh reburial most of them are Democrats must emerge, are planning on voting, not very engaged.

and most of them were like yeah. They, too much attention being paid on january, six, that was in the past, and what we really care about is inflation. When you start talking about both parties- and you know what they say well, Democrats is like Democrats can't get their shit together, which you know is a topic of conversation on this buckets of the time. But when you ask him about Republicans, they start saying extreme crazy care only about themselves or don't care about us, and I do think getting it into that choice, frame and away from the like. What issue do you really care about is is probably the best chance We have when we come back down we'll talk too strict scrutiny is melissa, murray about the Supreme court's gunderson this morning in supreme court, released a major opinion and a second amendment case

if a majority sided with gun manufacturers here to help us understand what the court and what it means is strict scrutiny. Melissa Mary was a welcome back the present market. For having me, how are you good. Then I was about three hours ago. I think, but my go down hill on a framework decision day. So I imagine years probably do as well so yeah It's only gonna get worse from. It seems that way. This is the appetizer of terribleness. Ok, is bush of terrible just v, We simply for all of us non lawyers, doing this interview and listening to it can, just wayne to us what the scream for did in what it means. So the cases brought I too, gun owners in new york state who sought a concealed carry permit. A new york is one of the handful of states that is a put uncle, may issue a state, which is to say that you can get a concealed, carry permit

I'm? But in order to do so, you have to demonstrate a special need and the problem that the court found here with that permitting scheme from new york is that gives a lot of discretion to state and local officials who decide what needs our special enough to warrant I'm getting the payment, that would allow you to carry a concealed weapon in a public space, and so in this decision, which is by justice, clarence thomas and, incidentally, the decision was handed down on his birthday, so happy birthday to him. I guess I'm at you and he's been jonesy for a big second amendment case for a long time, so that this is actually quite a birthday they invalidated the new york licensing scheme. They said very clearly that the sun An amendment permits are right to keep and bear arms in public settings it had previously on held in a case from two thousand eight called heller versus the district of club.

yeah that the second amendment protected a right to keep and bear arms related to the home. Now this allows you to go beyond the home to public spaces, but he didn't say it was sort of an and better, a free for all in the public sphere, so they noted that there might still be opportunity is for states to limit the carrying of weapons and concealed weapons in public spaces in sensitive areas, but they didn't believe say what sensitive areas might be, although they did know that areas that had previously been identified as sensitive included places like pulling places maybe schools and federal buildings and quota code court house itself made screen. Where they work will be continued to be regarded as a sensitive place back. You know, I think what this decision actually dies is set up and t up a range of litigation to try and determine what this.

right to keep and bear arms in public actually means, and what authority, states and local governments have to actually restrict the carrying of weapons in public settings like what are in fact, those sensitive areas where the state can appropriately regulate, and so we don't know, I guess new york governor said she was considering calling back in the legislature to rewrite the law to try to meet this new task. Is there any sense of what that could possibly be? Are we just going to be in a case of states? Pushing instead until we find what what is it miscible level arabians rough state power too protected citizens in this situation? Now it's worth mimis laying out what this new test is, I'm so previously. The idea had been in the cellar case that the second amendment permitted this right to heap and bear arms. But then there was some sort of me

and ends testing. So, yes, you could have the you had a right to bear arms, but it wasn't an unfettered right, meaning that the state could propria ITALY regulate it so long ass. Their imposition on your right wasn't on excessive, given what they were trying to accomplish right. In this case, the court actually says we start with the premise of the second and men that affords this right to keep and bear arms any kind of jettison. The idea that there is any kind of presumptive opportunity for the state to think about whether it can meaningfully infringe upon that right, like the starting place is the second amendment protects this right and the only kind of state regulations are consistent with the second amendment are those regulations that would be consistent with the historical understanding of what the framers had understood as reasonable regulation. So if you want-

Have a reasonable regulation states get back to us nineteen, eighty nine and figure out whether what you're doing and twenty twenty two is consistent with what the states and other regulators would have done at the time. The second amendment was drafted, so the kind of backward looking opinion, no unintended, I'm? Actually, physically requires us to look backwards to think about what restrictions would have been. Ok inside in eighteen, eighty, nine and one the second amendment was drafted in. So that's the task that the newark legislature has, to deal whether and to be clear. It sets a really high bar, I think, for letters. Church going forward, because what would have been reasonable to a legislature it at the time the constitution was drafted, is obviously very different from what the just later of today face in terms of the threats of gun violence, the kinds of threats that they are really

leading to an eight years, an entirely different world. The real irony here is that on even ass, the court is telling us that we have to look backwards to what the framers would have understood as a reasonable restriction. On the second amendment, we don't have to think about the second meant, as only enshrining a right to bear the kinds of arms that were available in seventy, Eighty nine, so the history sizing is incredibly selective. So you know your air. Fifteen is fine, but in order to regulate it, you have to go back to seventeen. Eighty nine. How closer to the supreme court, allowing states to require us to housing militias in our homes, his that seems to have been very high on the minds of the people who wrote that amendment back that and I'm joking there, obviously but

The third amendment ordering of soldiers all related to this, as if it were very concerned about the tyranny of every minute brown. I think that with this court this is a really maximal list. Six to three courts at anything is possible. You'll get your guest room ready for the militia like it could happen, but you're, what's actually really just as the line up here and the time with which the court chuck to actually issued this decision. So Oil argument occurred in november of twenty twenty one, and it was very obvious in november that there were five votes to right down the new york scheme, and really the only question was what were they going? to do about put him sensitive places like the new york subway justice kagan brought up the subway repeatedly in her colloquy is with the lawyers not really was the only question and for weeks we ve been waiting for this decision

only decision left from that november's doing and you I swear he lay down on pod, save america on weight that year. Perhaps the reason had not got in this opinion was because you we had these homes shootings in buffalo and you ve all day and another communities around the country, and maybe the court was a sort of like you know what? Let's our role, we can actually be ghoulish and expand the second amendment, while people are literally still morning, the deaths of nineteen children You don't know where almost a month later today just a day shy of the month anniversary of that horrific shooting in Ivaldi. We have the Senate poised to take up some regulations and this opinion does not endanger any of those regulations in any way. Maybe the court thought that this was an appropriate moment to, we send, so maybe they were too sitting on it until the heat died down a little, but there actually some interesting.

Currencies here and in one of the interesting concurrence is comes from justice Cavanaugh, who also joined in that concurrence by the chief justice, and they really here were in on this theme that there is still room for states and localities to restrict the public care. Being a fire arms in quoting quote sensitive areas itself again ranks back They show that the ladys of strict scrutiny have been engaged in it. We were wondering, if may be, the reason they waited on. This opinion was because the chief and justice cavanaugh trying to get this separate concurrence together, which may have the effect of perhaps limiting a little bit the maximum list energy majority opinion just today in their either imply. Your state directly that the laws and a lot of states would meet this task. Is that correct, so, while all felt that fighting it everything's in effect, let's go

the answer. They know that new york is one of a handful of state, some interesting way there. All blue states, california, new jersey. They also happen to be six states that comprise about twenty five percent of the population of the united states. Are there just like we're just striking dummy ec states, but those laws actually impact about a quarter of the population of the country. So it's incredibly significant on. They suggest that the other forty three jurisdictions, which our current quota shall issue jurisdictions, which is to say that there are requirements to get a concealed carry permit, but on the whole, the state, if you meet them, will issue the permit to you there's a footnote where they suggest that maybe even having those threshold requirements might eventually be called into question shall issue states. The majority of states that have the sort of threshold acquirement spur conceal, carry permits are fine for now, but

I wonder if this footnote suggests that they're ready and inviting perhaps litigation that would suggest that even those such requirements intrudes too much on the second amendment rights of donors. Have you brought up the two thousand and eight heller decision, and it could you just there is this sense and all of the republican rhetoric or on this. The conserve responses decision that the right to bear arms has been as understood by disappeared as a constitutional right since the beginning of the republic- but that is not actually, the cases are more complicated, more recent, where the huge just explain, sort of what the hell are decision. Men and whites are significant in why it's important to recognise that are the kurds, the court's current understanding of the right to bear arms is much more recent and I think people think shore and so you it's worth noting. The text of the second amendment to the text of the second amendment says

a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people To keep and bare arm shall not be in french or there's a sort of prefatory clause, and then this operative clause like up about the right to bear arms the prefatory clauses piece about the militia, for most of our constitutional history, the court has interpreted the second amendment as permitting a right to bear arms in conjunction with militia service, because about that prefatory clause, in two thousand and eight in the hollered decision in a five to four decision, the court essentially concluded that either the prefatory closet, men Jens militia service was kind of way of. It is true that in there, the plaster. It's like you know, big thing, no big deal nothing to see here and that earlier decision, including a decision from the nineteen thirties, that

we've limited the right to bear arms because it was linking it to militia service was actually wrong, and so that happened in two thousand and eight for much of our constitutional history. We have observed this right to bear arms we've just linked it to the requirement of militia service. So it's not just like every individual gets a right to keep and bear arms like it is junction with this militia service right in two thousand and eight the court essentially makes a stunning an unprecedented departure from that interpretation of the second amendment determines that? The second amendment in its playing meaning has nothing to do, where's militia service, but that was just like stuff. They added in and in fact it stands for the principle that individuals have a right to keep and bear arms and the contacts of home for traditional purposes like home defence on and now today they have

standard at a little further, not only home defence, but also the possibility of self defence in public spaces night. So the supreme court believes you have a constitutional right to carry a weapon in public for the purposes of self defence. last question for you. I will a question that I will step back and let you do your work, but could you help? I understand the seeming contradiction between a supreme court which says now that states have very limited authority to regulate whether you can carry a weapon in public but seems to say, the states have great power to regulate personal of your decisions like abortion,. Dan, united on the same page, I literally just raise literally just raised this inconsistency on an emergency episode of strict scrutiny, and the only thing I could say really is on you. We might be. Court might be more amenable to reproductive rights. If we get all give birth to, they are fifty

that seems in all right. I mean states, I think, when this decision in the dobbs case the abortion case finally drops are, I think seats will have brought authority to regulate abortion as they see fit. But, as you say in this case states authority to limit where guns can permissive be carried out, that that's verboten and it's worth noting on this is, I think, one of the last opinions that justice I will write right for the Horton justice prior wrote, a very impassioned dissent to the majority opinion in heller in two thousand. Eight any essentially replies some of that in his descent today, but one of the things he really emphasise, I think he did because it is so long been a sort of stocking worse of the conservative leave on Madame. He really emphasise this question. A federalist local wasn't when he talked about the fact that, in new york, when state officials, these decisions about what special needs warranted a concealed carry permit

we're doing it. Sort of contextual lay like the world counties like made. Decisions based on the local needs, recognising that those local colonies were very different from places like manhattan, county, for example, where the special needs that might perhaps someone to request and receive a conceal carry permit could be very different on that kind of localism. That kind of thing, wasn't concern has been such a concern of the conservative legal movement. Madame centred o connor talked about this justice. Anthony Kennedy talked about this and I think justice briar risk resurrected. Add in this opinion, because I think he is pointing out the inconsistent like this is a conservative legal movement staffed by six supreme court justice as that are not always consistent about where their priorities and their principles most very. Thank you so much for joining us. Every one check out the emergency episode in the strict screwed, feed about his decision in and subscribe to strict scrutiny when we come back

John, will talk to say during the host a crooked media, new tribeca winning podcast mother country radicals the. Joining us now as the host of crickets newest limited series, mother country radicals, which just one the tribeca film festivals, podcast award for best audio storytelling and nonfiction zayd doorn? Congratulations and welcome to the pot thanks John crappy, be here I first learned about your family. When many americans did back in two thousand and eight, my boss, Barack Obama, was accused of being friendly with your father airs who, along with your mother burning Doorn, were leaders of the whether underground organization, which was eight. Left wing militant group that aspire to overthrow the. U S, government, in the in the nineteen seventies. How did you

cs, learning about all that is a kid like what was it like to sort of? First understand who your parents were and then square. The public perception of your parents with the people who raised you yeah a long process. It took a long time in some ways the end of that process was doing this serious cause. When I was a kid you know my parents, I mean they never hid anything from me. They always told me we were on the run from the f b. I my mom was on the ten most wanted list. I knew we were fugitives? I knew we used fake names, so I never. I never lied to about it, but at the same time I it seemed pretty normal to me most of my. friends their parents were on the run or that were in prison and when you're born into something you don't really stop to think how strange this is. So it took me a while took until later. When I was you know, a teenager growing up and started to see like not all parents are like this. And in our starting to realise like how unusual that kind of childhood really

so what's your parents came out of hiding and got normal jobs. What was it like to be the child of of burning doorn in belarus for while it was pretty normal. I never thought about it much. You know by the time my mom got out of jail in, but we had turned cells in by that point, we are no longer fugitives, to a normal high school. My dad was a professor of education. He actually got the chicago, mayor daily, gave him the chicago citizen of the euro ward. When I was in high school for his work with educational reform, so in a certain sense they were just normal. You know citizens they were activists it wasn't until two thousand and eight. When I really you know, we got thrust back into the news when Hillary Clinton was talking about. My dads are appealing was saying we were palling around with terrorists and all this, so that was when it started to kind of really surreal I'm going to ask what the two thousand and eight campaign was like from your end, as ever, and it was ok,

Now there's this story and everyone on the campaign who was from Cargo are connected to chicago David ox rod whose it who's in this series you guys interview You know explained to the rest of us know they had this past and now there, If there are, you know they ve done their time, they're they're sort of reintegrated into this eighty people type and it was sort of hard to where that with third, what you are hearing from, like you said not only the Republicans and Sarah Palin, but Hillary Clinton hard to square? And I think, if you listen to the series in there's something very surreal about the fact that these are people who were setting off bombs, robbing banks. You know teaming up with black liberation groups too, in a break people out of prison and then Twenty years later, they were pretty normal, prominent chicago citizens who were just doing their activist work and who knew everybody, obama, Jesse jackson. In a lot of a lot of folks in Chicago

the way to square that. I guess it's just to say my mom, her time she did time in jail. They turn themselves in my dad got probation Then they spent a long time kind of doing normal activist work and sort of building ordinary lives in the kind of progressive movement in chicago, and you know they can had a second act. They they were. They they had another part of their lives. That was very different for us the strange time, though I mean fox news, had had vans outside our house. They were chasing my dad down the street. He was on every tv channel in the country. He actually came. I was living in new york the time he came out to my apartment, to kind of lay low for a while and try to stay out of the spotlight, and we turn on the tv just relax and there's even colbert, making a joke about him. So it was hard to escape that kind of media circus once you're in it. So what made you decide to dig into this past and tat this story now yeah. Well, there two reasons: there was a political reason in a personal reason, political

and I started during the trump administration. I was really interested in the question of how people resist a government that seems to be going off the else. You know how they resist a lawn order. President. Specially how young activists should kind of go forward in that way and interesting as well. I was doing the research for this project. I was interviewing my parents interviewing other members of the weather underground, the black panther party, the black liberation army, and one thing I to notice over and over again is so many of these people had been radicalized by the killing of black people by police back in the sixties. Seventy, so the murder of fred than in chicago and the murder of clifford glover this ten year old kid in queens and as that was her as I was doing that research, that's when George Floyd was killed, and so the protests exploded on the streets and start to feel like a really relevant and important story to tell now so I was there, reason. The personal reason was that you know my parents were getting older and my mom was about to turn eighty years old, Cathy, but dean. Other whether person who was the man of my adopted by their traceability,

she had cancer and was very ill, and so I started to feel like is might be my last chance to ask some of the questions of my family. Where's that I've always had in my mind and to get their voices on tape in rome and minutes. They really are historical figures in some way. My mom marched with martin luther king worked with fred hampton and met mohammed Ali and abbe hoffman and Tom Hagen. So I wanted to get those voices on tape in a still, I still could yeah back back to the political reason, casino dan and I just spent sort of like the first part of this episode, talking about how the threat of political violence has become a recurring theme in these january sixth hearings, particularly rightwing violence. You and I talked about this in the early days of mother country radicals, but how did the unity I started around the or you're doing the research, rounded. The George Floyd protests

in january, there's a a violent insurrection against the capital and there's this. This rise of right wing violence that we see to this day. How did that factor into your thinking about how to tell this story about left wing political violence yeah? Well, I think it's important both to think about the kind of the the roots of radicalization. How, happens on on both sides, but also to think about the differences you know I mean I asked my dad during the series about the insurrection. We all watched it, of course, and- and I asked him did did given that they, you know that the weatherman bombed, the capital building, did He feel like there was some similarity there and I'm in the end. The answer is interesting and I let him speak for himself, but what I think is interesting about it is. You know there is this question of, like is political violence ever justified, but then there's also a question of like the difference between first of all right wing political violence, as we ve seen, is so much more common, actually left wing political violence is very, very rare, but second of all, there is a big difference between a group of people who storm the cap,

well not in a revolutionary or grassroots way, but literally to keep the sitting president in power illegally, and that was a right wing attempted coup, not a kind of insurrection from oppressed people. Mainly the thing I think is really different about it is you know you can have people radicalized on both sides, but what radicalized? My parents and members the black liberation army in black panther party was you know: systemic racism and police violence against black people. That's real! That's very different than being radicalized by the idea that you know. Democrats are running some kind of pedophile ring in a pizza parlour and then you can be radicalized by real things. You can be radicalized by lies in whether or not you think that the threat of political violence is ever justified or whether you think over the equivalence you may or may not believe it between rightwing levering political violence wondered? What am I take away from from the story? You

how about the weather underground is that political violence and even the threat of political violence, doesn't seem very politically effective. Just just listening to sort of you tell the story about. All of these left wing groups in social movements and sort of how they splinter and they disagree over this question of violence and and tactics? What's take on that. Where, where did? Where? Did you come out on that? After doing this whole project yeah, I mean it's a big question and I think it's a lot of what the series ends up being about is not not just these young people who got radicalized and did these violent acts, but what it meant to them to their children, to the movement as a whole and those are complicated questions to I mean for me and my brothers, it meant our parents going to prison for some of my friends. It meant their parents being killed and it, as you say, there's big debate about what those kind of radicalized movements did to the nineteen sixties, peace, movement and- and you know, and

afterwards. I guess I think you know where I come down. Is I'm a writer not an activist, I'm interested in what drives people? What motivates people? And you know what what the serious tries to do is say like. Why did people go down this path? What does it look like to try everything else? You know to try marching in the streets to try voter registration drives to try protesting and nothing seems to work. The vietnam war goes on. Black leaders are still being killed, and why do people suddenly decide to go down this path of violence? And you know how we can avoid it? I mean I asked my parents and others in the show. You know what did they regret and you hear a lot of people wrestling with. You know how they think of this stuff now and what they would have done differently. So there are notes of caution in there and also notes of inspiration. I mean there were really some really brave and committed things that people did as well. What do you hope people take away from your family?

story. Well, I hope, first of all, I think it's an incredible story. I think people who have never heard it before their minds are gonna, be blown. I mean it's a story. You can't believe it took place here in amerika in a way that you know it it read. Like a height thriller or are true crime, shower something it's got, bro but the police and jail breaks and bombings and shootouts and at the same time it got some real historical lessons and, and some real kind of I hope people learn from it, even if they know the story already I think for me the takeaway is about you know what it looks like for young people to decide to put themselves on the line and especially what it looks like to have the white and the black movement work together. You know we talk a lot about ally ship nowadays and one of the big lessons for me and in this series talking to people, you know members that, whether underground who are mostly white and then members, the black panther party, and the way they work

gather and the way they tried to kind of build solidarity is, I think, an under explored story. I think people will get a lot out of that kind of complexity of that relationship and also some inspiration from that yeah I mean look, I've been I've, been tweeting and saying this to everyone who listen, but it's one of my favorite part ass. We ve ever done at crooked that I've ever had the the, Would you have just working on a small part of an end? I think the reason is twofold. Why, because of what you said where it's just it's, it's fun, listen, it's exciting it's got all that you know it carries along like a lack of a real, exciting story and also because I think it you wrestle with some of the political questions and challenges that are core to what we are debating right now and typically on the left, which is you have a lot of people who are down and in a coal and indeed

in voting and down on organizing- and you know the their option that we ve seen happened in the past, is that it can lead to read localization and violence, and I and I do think that the story you It is not it isn't sugar coated You know it doesn't, as I don't get glorifies it. I think it shows that it yet that movement went through some pretty hard times. Personally, their families, you guys and then also the political movement as a whole, and I dont think that there are a lot of easy answers and down and I just think that you know. Obviously you were very close to this, but I think you did a fantastic job sort of you know, like you said you right or not an activist just telling the story like it wasn't letting the people who were involved speak for themselves, so I'd I do. I do hope that everyone goes and not goes and listens, because I think you can learn a lot thanks to him

well. Thank you. So much for joining pod save america. Everyone go check out the tribeca award winning mother country radicals. They doorn thanks for joining pleasant market John patient. You have me, I'm all right, that's our, go for today. Thank you to melissa murray for joining. Thank you to say, Dorn for joining us again hope. Everyone goes to vote, save america, dot, com, slash mid terms. I will tweet out those a gofundme links as well for a ruby and stay and also, if you're, organizing, if you're out there going to knock on doors and volunteering, and you want to be caffeinated. We got some crooked coffee that has finally launched and here's the best part you buy cricket coffee, a portion of the proceeds from every bag is They did to register her, which is an organization mobilizing women around the country, to register to vote

that's another way to help the cause had over two cricket outcomes like coffee to learn more and again but if america dotcom while you're there and have a great we can everyone, we will talk to you next week by everyone pod save america is a cricket media production, the executive producer Michael Martinez, our senior producer is Andy gardener, Bernstein, our producers. having used in the martinez is our associate producer, its mixed and edited by andrew chadwick I'll segment in charlotte land is sound engineer. The show thanks to turn you some. Later- sandy gerard Halley, keefer irish words, Andy taft and justine- how for production, support into our digital team, Elijah, cone, Phoebe, bradford, Milo, Kim and Amelia monies are episodes are uploaded as videos at you to doubt come such cricket. Fake? So, in order to support our show, we need the help us and great advertisers, and we want to make sure that advertisers are ones you'll actually want to hear about, but we

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