Trump’s lawyer argues that collusion with a hostile government isn’t a crime after reports that Michael Cohen might implicate the president, and both parties fight to define the stakes of the 2018 midterms. Then Vox’s Dara Lind joins Jon and Jon to talk about the latest developments in the family separation crisis.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
The presenting sponsor POD save America is zip recruiter. You bet it is John hiring his heart, multiple job site, stacks of Reza Maize, confusing review process, but there's one,
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I welcome the POD save America. I'm John fairer, I'm John mother Tommy Veto as honest honeymoon after a beautiful wedding up in one country, and you know what we were very concerned about the heat
wasn't. So bad wasn't really an issue
you have a lot about aids dry? He was a dry here, which was the small talk you made with all the wedding guests, absolutely lot when
how'd you get here. How do you hear about this? The weather's pretty nice,
that it was going to be hard. But it's not you know it's not that bad. This is terrible, not even doing additives. Malta,
later in today's pod, we'll talk to Vauxhall, dare lend whose one of the very best immigration reporters out there
For that. We're gonna talk about how Donald Trump and his legal team are moving the goalposts and the mother investigation that the nice going to say the goalposts just we'll get.
But I love the term moving the goalposts for this so funny. It's burning down the stadium rousing untitled landscape heading into the falls mid terms before
get? The news has lover leave at this week. We had an
awesome, love it or leave it. It's been just week after week of some of my favorite just premium content
we had Naomi, a Paragon guy Brantome plan. Parenthood heads
Ganz and Matt Fingerprints and from the show corporate came into the dramatic reading of Jonathan Carl's.
View of shots basis. Book was true delights. We had a blast dying. I brainstormed on some ideas for thee, Frazier, reboot plus me doctor than is it was of it. It was a great upset, fantastic, I'm guessing you were for the free.
Rip it, of course, and worthwhile guy was originally against it saying why do we need more Frazier and the answer is why don't we, of course
other crooked pod news, even those
honeymoon Tommy is a great new pod save the world that will be going out on Wednesday. He talked to Bassam use if a doctrine comedian, who was called the John Stewart of Egypt during the arab Spring and then became an enemy of the government,
also chapter six of the wilderness dropped on Monday. This episode is called
big? We. It follows up unless
episode on race, known as the backlash. This
about how Democrats can build a multi
she'll coalition that adds up to an electoral majority. We explore the question about
Non college, educated, white voters, the Obama from voters. Can we
I'm back, do we need to
them back. Do we not do we went back to tune in to find out you have to tune in to find out. I can tell you here mind undertaken with his nurse boiler. Many people are saying it's a great opposition
that's what it could have been an aim for that episode with a mission impossible fall out, because you know it's about in a pot abstemious, unanimous in the form of the election, the impossible mission of these people and bring all take years,
in a normal. Let's start, the pod cats are either side what the news our country is being run by some of the dumbest criminals in the world in their cover.
Not going well
on Friday sittings
reported that Michael Cohen is willing to test,
play the Donald Trump knew in advance about a June two thousand and sixteen meeting in Trump Tower that his son, Don Jr and son in LAW Jared Kushner attended with the hopes of getting dirt on Hillary
from the russian government, no collusion
indeed, if true, this would contradict repeated assertions from Trump and his team. That
didn't know anything about the infamous trumped our meeting until the New York Times asked him about it. Last summer Carl,
In Spain, the Watergate Guy, the out of that
he said that the twenty sixteen meeting was quote, convened for the purpose of collusion job right away that
didn't, require Woodward and Bernstein type reporting difficult that one out of the opt out, oh really pretty easy to forget that you got a deeper and on our own Carl
of. It is Cohen's account believable. You has had how big a deal of this. Is it a big deal? It's a big
in so far as Michael COM.
And was on the inside and was one of the people lying on behalf of Donald Trump Numb Bout, this meeting, and so much else for a long time. Clearly, he is facing a lot of pressure.
And he has turn now whether or not Michael Cohen is telling the truth about this particular meeting the fact
Michael Cohen, is no longer going to live for Donald Trump and is in fact, more concerned about protecting himself is really important, not just because what for what it says about the the term tower meeting, but because of what it says,
What Michael, Michael Car can tell not owing to special prosecutors but other prosecutors on separate investigations looking into the Trump organisation about what went on behind the scenes, and that to me is a big deal. It's not just that. He changes to on this one story is that it is willing to be this
soil. He has a lot to talk about yeah. I mean our own brain boiler had a piece about this. I believe on Friday, when the news came out and made the point that there's really only three options here, one
Poland is volunteering to perjure himself against the testimony of the several others he claims can corroborate historic too.
Cohen, is willing to accuse several others of purging themselves, while he's under oath or three, the most likely said,
Rio, some of the others, have already told prosecutors the truth
Mahler already knows
for the reasons that Communist saying this publicly, as opposed to keeping a quiet and just telling Mahler, is that he now
rose and Wendy Davis lawyer knows that
stood. Mahler already knows that this meeting happen in the trump knew about the meeting. Let he gave this
you're with no hero smell. It is alien, verse, predator out their whoever wins. We lose and dumb next question,
oh and assigned aside from Cohen, now sameness. We also know that Steve Bannon, remember him one,
Many things he told the writer Michael Wolf speaking of no heroes for his book was
can't the Don Junior do not walk these Gmos
free russian agents up to his father's office on the twenty sixth floor is zero too much
after that? Another former trumpet Visor SAM numbered, told scene, and he believed that when trumps says that he didn't know about the meeting, he's lying and
we also know none. There
also know the Trump Junior received com
from a blocked number. Before and after the meeting,
the has Republicans for some reason: didn't wanna subpoenaed the records to find out who that
number was yeah
Who was that I know was his father. We know that Donald trumps Phone interim tower calls
The block number listen, just we're out there in the world. We vulgar
calls from block number, sometimes
answer it usually don't giving birth.
This there's nothing good blog number. I maybe unprepared for this call if you answer to block number wants
and then went into a meeting and then came out
got a call from a block number and answered it again. It means you
HU, it is, and you weren't disappointed when you answered the first time.
Especially when the meeting was about getting dirt from
russian government on Hillary Clinton. Look he acts
and the reason we know Don Junior answered, the block number call is because he knew it was his dad and every single time
that phone rings, there's a chance. It ends with an I love you and
One day it will maybe it has tabled, has maybe
are some sort of compliment, something resembling a compliment. I'm proud of you son.
I gave you my name. You didn't do worse than Eric today
So this is a disease story comes out on Friday and, of course, Trump, and
Giuliani, who seemingly only plays a lawyer on television, make everything infinitely.
By opening their mouths. The president responded by attacking Michael Cohen, Cones lawyer, Robert Mahler, the Clinton's, the Democratic Party, the media. He was in a whole tear this week. I cope dealer is that,
then, on Monday, joy
did a round of interviews where he actually said the following
I don't even know that it's a crime colluding with the Russians hacking is the crime
the president didn't hack, he didn't pay for the hacking, but then it s
a better Rudy went on Fox NEWS to try
clean this up, realising that he may not have said the most help.
We'll thing in the morning on CNN, and we do have a clue.
But him calling it the Fox NEWS. Do you want to
start off with a statement, because we certainly want to talk about what looked like a shift this morning so taken away, but what we do with it. So what I said
that there was no collusion and therefore an actual
It also is no crime. I bring today that from the very beginning so shot down
Very, very familiar lawyers. Arguments that the alternative,
my client didn't do it, and even if we did it, it's not a crime
I have said that overall, the inclusion is not a crime, the only primarily hacking and is ridiculous to think that the president,
John? What does it say about the strength of trumps case? That is new?
argument is collusion, isn't a cry. Its fascinating John, because so you know
it's so hard regional out. If you I've been watching rejuvenate the little bit more and
Thirdly than I usually word, but I just been tuning in giving fascinated by it because I started went when numb when the coroner Poor came out on Gaza,
into watch. A man have a sort of a clear break down on national television. Honestly, it honestly looks like he walked out of studio. Fifty four
last night it was an operation it was sunny out. He thought I was gonna, be dark out any gotta call that said, you're you're, the president's lawyer and you gotta, be seen in five minutes. That's what it looks like. I really ever use this real arguments. Flash cold water on his first he's, not a criminal, and if you were a criminal, is the best criminal. Anyway. Where am I say who, but but-
So it's and with Russia, but it has allergy about, is so it is really so you watch him do this and its really confusing it's it's and its, and you can tell
like our you being really unclear about a clear message. You're trying to deliver.
Or are you actually being very clear about trying to make everything seemed complicated and heart understand right, because before he was a goober
television for Donald Trump rooted. You Annie was a prosecutor for decades, a famously aggressive, prostate,
Roger who didn't rubul. As U S attorney try to some cases who one expects would be.
Passing familiarity with the. U S. Criminal code yeah does seem like he has lost his
but, but, but also you know it's interesting to because
he's going on television, saying, Michael Cohen, is a liar and Donald Trump is credible, which is amazing, could as evidence
Michael Cohen being a liar, is look at
lying he's done on behalf of my client for so many years, the credible one right it all it all just feels like he goes out there. He has one sentence: he needs it.
Over, which is moving the goalposts in one way or another. Just attack call an attack. The press attack Mahler and in slide in plus where's the crime I've checked them. I've checked the I checked the registry
can't find a crime on it. I just slips that in a move onto the next cable press, it where he just below the until he's gotten that one
under the wonder the tray over the transom will. Thus I wear the surf sleight of hand here, because, obviously, if you look through their criminal code, you will not find the word collusion as a crime. So what is the crime
Where do we need to be more specific about this former? We were coatings person either.
Former assistant. U S attorney for the southern district of New York, Ellie Home.
In the daily beast wrote on Monday
conspiracy is simply any agreement to break the law. It doesn't necessarily have to be secret ever successful if trumped junior cushion her manner
work expected an agreed among themselves or with the Russians to obtain campaign, relate
dirt from the Russians and that dirt had a modicum
financial value, meaning it could affect the campaign and a good way could be a contribution to the campaign.
Then we have a criminal conspiracy to violate laws prohibiting foreign campaign contributions if it involves hacking, which now we know that
we're hacked stolen emails. Then we have another federal conspiracy to accept stolen emails and stolen information. If Trump, if Donald Trump,
president knew about the meeting in advanced. He could be a coke and spirit, a co conspirator in this crime and Trump Junior by the way who testified to Congress of the President did not know about this meeting will have committed part, perjury and sword Jared
dinner, who said that he was he did not know when he stepped into the meeting that it was about colluding with that it was about getting down from the Russians. Even though now we know that there was a meeting beforehand, planning a pre, a free meeting, a pre collusion meta right. Well, yes, so that doesn't mean that I'm Josh Marshal was running about a tv em. What I thought was interesting that
That really is letting slept. The idea that there is this previous meeting getting everybody ready a collusion collusion if you
a collision collusion meeting. Yes, so basically,
happened here is the appears. The tube
before the meeting, the famous meaning and from tower with the Russians, Juliet
is now say, is now admitting that there was a planning meeting
prepare for the meeting with the Russians that involve Don Junior Jared cushion her Manner Fort Rick Gates,
the deputy campaign manager, who is now a cooperating witness with rubber Miller, and in that meeting they were now p
turning to get ready for the meeting, and obviously that has all sorts of implications right. It has it,
as a lot. First of all, its also
remembering how far we ve come in a year of bullshit about this meeting,
If you remember this began as a meeting that wasn't a big deal that wasn't anybody schedules that nobody cared about. Some random show enough to talk about adoption. Now we know that it will
a meeting with russian agents about colluding too to sabotage hurricane campaign, and it is important not to the key
pain that not only was Don Junior briefing his father before and after, but also they were planning for this meeting two days before. That is a very big deal. It experts
them in a lot of lies. But it also goes to your point that what we are seeing is not just the happenstance of receiving the benefit of russian interference, but a coordinated effort with the Russians to win,
election, which is why I think, ultimately, Rudy is changing his tune and why he goes on
vision and calls Michael calling a wire while,
while in the next breath, saying and even
Everything, Michael Cones, as is true, what's the difference, because what Rudy knows because you clearly talking to challenge the special council on behalf of his client?
knows what's coming. He knows what else robber more hazardous has an idea of what else Robber Miller has, because you know
cameras are off Rudy is still.
We ninety percent of the prosecutor, he once was maybe eighty five percent, no idea
I do think it's important too
for everyone enough, but there's Democrats, reporters people to start telling the truth about this
is maybe we have been a little sloppy with the word just collusion- and this is by MRS trumps Hope- and this is the Trump people's hope that we everything just falls under collusion, but
Now you see Republican, saying, like dinner, Dana roar Barker in Russia's favour. Congressmen saying
if anyone tells you they wouldn't accept dirt from a foreign government in a campaign, that's crazy. Anyone in this town would have done. I've been doing it for a decade and I also accepted a boat. I don't care if anyone would do that. It's a crime is a crime to do this and we have a saying that it is a conspiracy to defraud the United States,
and that is what- and that is what Mahler has been. That is the spine of the case that he's been building those some of the charges that he's levelled against parliament. Effort against various
People who the he's he's indicted as well and this
idea that- and this is why this also I'm always been building the case from the outside and first he and dates the Russians for their social media campaign.
Then he's indicted the russian hackers for the theft of the emails right so he's trying to first lay out the fact that there were crimes committed against the United States and in the second movies which people then, yes, they were willing to aid and abet those crimes from happening. That is a conspirator that is a crime right, so this to pieces to this one
as is morally reprehensible to collude with a foreign avars right, it does not interfere with our election exact, but we're not even
talking about that is in a situation where we're Trump got Putin on the call for non on the phone and said hey. Would you help me with some pulling in Wisconsin? Really we do you know what you would you
you tell me brainstorm on some slogans. I should use the rush
came in and committed a bunch of fucking crimes. So it's not only did they collude, they colluded undoing a bunch of illegal shit, so it is both immoral and a crime. They have just embraced the fact that they're gonna have to make a case it.
Wasn't a moral right. There are trying to get away with saying exclusions out of crime, and so what and the next so so so it's
no collusion. Now
collisions, not a crime and in the final step is, would you rather be taken? We did this to save the country.
From that woman with the emails, the Watergate burglars, broken to the offices, the Democratic National Committee, the Russians broke in to the democratic national committees, email system broke into,
Larry Glens emails system stole a bunch of information and used it to sabotage the election and, ironically, both US
so people are now basically running the inner. I reckon I mean it. Is this
My dear only this, I was a foreign government and the Trump campaign
Welcome that held. They knew about the hell out,
The thing that we learned is the day that they had the the
collusion, planning meeting the collusion college meeting.
After. That meeting was,
to be the same day. That Trump gives a speech on one of the primary night election speeches and has oh by the way, I'm gonna give a big speech in a couple weeks about
this new dirt on Hillary Clinton,
brag about it? We could all excited about the collusion that he brag about a little fuckin kid who couldn't wait to open,
presence ran down the stairs early open them up. There was hilarious emails,
so yet Rudy also told Axiom he once more to quote put up her shut up. Why don't you write a report in shows what you have, because they don't have a goddamn thing. I let alone who you were just saying this. So do we think that really Giuliani does know
what mauler has and he's trying to get out of
make make up all these new excuses. That inclusion. Is it a crime thing or two?
Do we think he genuinely doesn't think that Malta has anything like? Why say something like that? Yeah I mean, I think. That's that's a great question, John. So I think
I think basically, you know I'm like wind decks. You can set it to a kind of tighter spray here and then more of a fine missed time is like them. As I understand whose doing the taxpayer yeah Rudy loves a fee
I missed of bullshit right. He he's sprang an issuer of diffuse and wide. I think a lot of this is getting through the next day. There's nothing Rudy Giuliani can say today that will make that report, which we will get at some point,
it seemed better, but we can do today to get through today is make a case that Mahler has nothing. It's all bullshit he's conflicted, he's corrupt the investigation sort of the dossier and just keep keep turning up the water and try to keep it
much turbid, eighty in the water, so that, when this report eventually does com he's already laid the groundwork for people too,
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Baby, Ellie Contacts dotcom. How should Democrats handle and talk about this can spirit. This ongoing conspiracy,
two, the russian government, the troubled administration since drums,
intelligence director says that Russia plans to attack us again. The daily bees report last week that they ve already tried to target Clare MC campaign. There was
report today that they tried to target Ginger Haines campaign as well and not just election interference. Now there are also trying to target private electric companies utilities,
what are we me because there was all this so much
argument or the debate has been like Democratic focused
much on Russia? We should focus on other issues, but that's when it was all in the past right
We know there is an ongoing threat to the twenty eighteen election spark Russia doing this again and the Trump administration at best doesn't want to do anything about it at worst, is actively helping them. What which, how should democrat about this so hard question? I think the divide russian interference into two baskets one of them is the sometimes legal, sometimes illegal, effort to sway the electorate itself, whether by hacking, emails and releasing them putting Craig accounts on Twitter and Facebook and just trying to stir the pot get people hating, each other get people confused to try to affect the
come of elections. I think that's the way. We need to be vigilant about point out talk about, while recognising that having been through this before we learn some lessons about what to be vulnerable, what not to be vulnerable. Hopefully, campaigns are being more careful about their information, more care about even what they're putting down an email to begin with, but that that actually worries me less than the the more sinister threat which is infrastructure going after the electric grid going after then. More specifically are registries of voters voting system and that to me
is something we do need to talk about, because it's it's a threat to the foundation of our system and were not taken seriously enough, and you know you read these articles about you eat. You read these. You read these reports on what is happening with these election systems and you read that a lot of this has been privatized. You read that republican secretaries of state. Don't take it seriously enough, and you have this strange feeling, which is
wait a second. This is really important, is a big deal and what sad as what makes me worried when what reminds me of what made us vulnerable to Trump and the Russians to begin with, as you have these twin census, one that this is the most important threat to our democracy right now
and to the feeling that not only will we not doing
think about it, but the sense that it's not possible to take this issue seriously anymore, that things are two partisan and broken and to me, ultimately, that's part of what makes this election so important, because we need to demonstrate that we can elect people that will care about this issue that will not just at the congressional level but the sector state level. The governor level shore up these election systems because
they believe it important. They don't care because in these situations is not just about win or lose it about making sure that people trust the outcome of the elections. But I think the Democrats should make a very old argument that Republicans make against Democrats. All the time which is the Republican Party, doesn't want protect America right now. The Republican Party under Donald Trump
in bed with a hustle foreign power who now wants to not only attack our elections but attack. Our electricity grid attack us in all kinds of different fronts. And
Party, because they would, rather, when an election,
They rather win an election than protect this country. Protect the security of the United States of America are infrastructure, are elections? Are democracy they would rather win then protect us democratic rights are making the case Yanina. So let's talk more about them in terms and trumps
political strategy. If you want to call it that heading into the fall on Sunday the priority we just talking about terms political strategy on Sunday blackouts in cities, that is the traveller
the president, threatened to shut down the federal government of Democrats, dont fund his border wall and make changes to federal immigration policy Republicans or
Eddie, thrown cold water on the idea which we,
shut down the government just weeks before the mid term. Elections in October
a number of Republicans. Aren't you happy about this problem? Is Tom Coal told the New York Times?
I don't see how putting the attention on shutting down the government when you control the government is going to help you. That seems reasonable from Tom CALL. Name
hey Tom what're you doing all right. We gotta play
here's a shut down the government and blame three Democrats in Ohio. I mean republicans
there's a saying to reporters. Don't listen to this is an empty frat trumps really knock.
Do it we ve got Mcconnell like and ridable that we ve got it under control yea we got our spending bills got like. Do you think they'll be able to.
How come out of this? If you want to do it, you know I didn't
after about a thing, I dont know, if anyone's every success, we touch talk trump out a thing: you can distract them with a piece of chicken yeah. I don't know either. The thing to remember too is.
As always, tromp shoots the hostage right. So when he
says, give me my border funding or I'll shut down the government
it's also remember. We have agreed to this before we agreed to pay for the wall. If Donald Trump would agree to protect
dreamers. He even said that that was the deal he wanted. We came to him, we said here we go where
ready to do the deal, and of course he walked away because the hardliners in administration in Congress chased him off of it. The thing is this isn't just about the border. While this is about
restrictions on legal immigration, which is always the the piece of this that doesn't get enough coverage because he's made the wall the centrepiece. But what Donald Trump really wants is:
he wants it billions for the border wall. He wants
frictions on legal immigration and he wants no compromise on behalf of dreamers, separated families or any of it and Democrats can go along with that and we're not in charge of the government. But we have a set of priorities. We ve already said you know shimmers gone back and forth, but we ve already said really lets. You know we can pretend renegotiating, but we ve already said you can have your wall. If you protect the dreamer
and you know he won't, take a good deal on its head to himself, and maybe you well, maybe one on only one thing I was wondering if you know today, everyone was greeting. This news by saying will look Republicans control the White House. They control Congress. Obviously, if he goes through this, its Republicans fall, never noses. But what happens when a bunch Republicans in Congress say? Oh shit he's actually gonna go through with shutting down the government over the wall,
Obviously I can give me cuts. Illegal immigration, malicious, give him his twenty five billion for the wall, because otherwise we're gonna have a government shut down right before them in terms that could hurt us so lessons,
give him as much money as he wants and then, when Democrats in the Senate say Abso fucking loosely, not
we're going to do this when maybe you and protect the dreamers, and now you just want the funding now we're gonna stand against.
And now there are public and to say, Democrats in the Senate are standing there there blocking this funding, build. It would keep the government open, open borders, open borders, I would say,
no one, will be able to play out the consequences. They will be messy and hard to understand. The fact. The Republicans control the White House in both branches of Congress is enough to make the fight worth having, because we know what the right thing to do as the right thing to do as do not give in on border funding. Unless you-
at the dreamers and I think we should hold the line on that again. Look we. This was this. This is something we have taken. Is our position and cook it right. We will need that argue that that you cannot give him concessions without getting anything. The concession can't be keeping the gun
open. Everybody wants to govern open, that's a lesson from the debt ceiling during the Obama years. That's a lesson from every shut down we ve had if they want democratic votes, Democrats need to get something and if they don't that, will not help them with the people. They need to come out and vote for them, so they are good.
Be too. They are so afraid of their own shadows that they can't stand up for the simple idea that we will give you your border funding, but you have to give us the big thing we ve been asking for that. You said you were ok with that. You yourself
said you were behind for two years now: yeah. Well it all. It is clear the reason why or one big reason why,
dont want to give us that and why he wants to shut down over the wall
and an reason is the map and twenty eighteen. So there was a great nearer times, peace by
data guru, Nate Cone on Monday about how to fight for the house going to be fine
entering it's a bit different from the conventional wisdom. So it's not just well educated, suburban districts that voted for Hilary and twenty. Sixteen, like the court
Eight! That we have here in California, but there's a
of working class in rural districts that when for tromp, in fact, merely the sixty most competitive, how seats are wider and more pro trump than the Country
is a whole forty. Nine percent of the electorate in those seeds voted for Trump between sixteen and only forty six percent voted for Clinton. What does it say about the Trump republican strategy? This fall and are now? What do you think? I am
it's clear that the reason they let me because we could laugh at them facing out that you know their base is too small to win this election. So how can they do that? But not
and we ve. We know that they have this sort of institutional structural advantage because of gerrymandering in the way the map is, but it's also now take their seats
up happened to be a little wider, more programmes of their thinking. As long as we read of the base, we can do this
so. The good news is the special actions we ve had so far in twenty eighteen democratic. Can anyone seventeen democratic candidates,
running further ahead of Clinton in the trunk districts than in the Clinton friendlier districts. So, for example like in the US off race that was a seat that Clinton one that district, even though it was republican district for years and years and years suggests ledges major its clear what that means. What that means is like, so across the map. We see this democratic advantage. The democratic advantage is, oddly, more concentrated in Trump districts, then Clinton districts, which makes sense when you think about the fact that, in a lot of ways, this election is like arbitrage between
people's revulsion to Trump and their natural, partisan inclinations right, or that there are lots of soft trump voters in these places that are clearly get a ball which, to your point, makes sense was why we would end up talking
migration. Well in that area, we sought, as at the end of a twenty sixteen race right, which is the Clinton campaign. They were really
counting on the Romney Clinton voter, or that was a big constituency. They thought the law these
who voted for Mitt Romney, who Republicans would say we are so repulsed by Donald Trump, that we will vote for Hillary Clinton and it turns out that their partisan leanings, the fact that they were Republicans who get off
information from Fox NEWS and the entire conservative media propaganda atmosphere.
At the very end, they decided that their hatred for Hillary Clinton was greater than how much they were repulsed by Donald
and they turned out to end up there with the current Romney. Voters were very small portion of these swing. Voters, the larger group where these Obama trumpeters
who voted for amendment no eight and twelve and then adopt voting for Trump and in those districts in his districts that are heavier with Obama, Trump voters. That's it we're seeing these huge swings back towards the Democrats, the Conor Lamb race.
Is a big one. There were a lot of Democrats in that race that who had voted for Donald Trump, but then just came home and came back to a democratic party and voted for Conor Land right, and I do think that has implications,
so on the republic inside their thinking to themselves. Well, we will get them back by making this all about immigration and making this in instead of just fighting these culture wars, whether it's about the national anthem, whatever else and I think the d
rats and democratic, Conor Lamb Democrats in a lot of these districts that we will soon be successful there thinking to themselves. We will make it about the economy. We will make it about populism. Real populism rightly say that visit administration is only care for the rich and is trying to take away your health care to give tax, keep tax breaks for billionaires and we're gonna be different than that. Yeah thing that's right and then now that, but that the key thing is ok, so we know that that Donald Trump isn't. I want to make this election about immigration, anime shut down the government to do it, and you can do one of two things to that. When, in response to that, you can say well, then we'd better capitulated slipping, get back to the topic at hand or we can. We can do the hard
thing which is actually the right thing, which is fighting on immigration and fight for what we believe in while being disciplined off and thoughtful and up to make sure there were not allowing Emma's. Thirteen and the nonsense trouble be spewing for the next three months to drown out the larger message around jobs, health care, education, the economy, the corporate tax got being for the rich
for you. Efforts up to undermine row and preconditions and all the rest, and I think that gains call out the game
and to cause a guys do he's doing so, and so I think it really important to cut the game called the game, and I think the Good NEWS is. If you look at Virginia, you can look at Virginia as a place where this theory was tested to the MAX
nor thumb and everybody on that ballot ran in a situation where Republicans quickly realized that they had no choice but to run an image? Thirteen
they they called the game. They fought on the issues they want to fight our fight on, and voters came on
yeah and the only and the only trickier thing in twenty is virginia- is applied
they, Hillary Clinton, one by five points, these districts that we just mentioned Trump one by three points and rice,
dean so but northern one, but that you ve been northern when evaluating plan right. So, but that's why we have a competitive by this outcome headed of election, but I do think for Democrats like in a right before
recording today we saw this New York Times headlines that
The trouble ministration is now considering bypassing bypassing Congress to cut capital gains. Tax
for the rich by another hundred billion dollars a hunt-
billion dollar tax cut for the super rich by exists
what they're doing now, that is, they are getting
close to just just basic
inviting people in a certain tax bracket to the treasury with bags
just bring a bring any bag. Everybody can bring one tote and just fill it with fuckin money and go home and here's the here's. The answer for Democrats to almost every question
asked between now and election day o the trouble
distraction wants a unilateral tax cut for four. Just just do just read the trend
nothing? I want to know your teachers, with with their hats out on planes, get money for school supplies and tromp ascending Lucan out to hand out doubloons everybody in Wall Street. But what do you think about this national anthem controversy? I think that the trouble administration is more than a hundred billion dollar tax cuts for the ultra rich on their own. What do you think of animals? Thirteen going over our towns, yet I think a hundred billion is going to fucking rich people pay the readings issuing from the Treasury. Rudy said that Robert Mahler, as a terrorist, what do you think of that? Fuckin believable put it on a bumper sticker? It's ridiculous
we got a tight it for the bumper sticker. Here we do have to cover every one to tweets.
Actions for the bumper sticker about a hundred billion dollar tax cut their distant. The lawless tax got the law and the nice thing about all this shit that are brag about forego active orders. Yet bravo, my I wasn't on the level yet bribery of regret that the audacity to use his executive power to try to keep
children who knew other no other country, but America here and
tromp saw that parents
and write, my friends them and get some cash
is it yes August after her
clothing live. We gotta do something so there
that's our. You know that the ones have been successful in these special actions have been focusing on this economic message and economically populous message. There been folks gonna task as the focus on health care. One place where this is going to be tested is the Ohio
12th. We talked to Danny O'Connor who's, the Democrat running in Ohio special election in August seventh, on a pot last week, Trump won his district. Fifty three two hundred and forty two has a cook political report, score of r plus seven, but Dems have been over performing swing. Districts like
that one by an average of eight points, so this is right. On the other hand, they just move this to a toss up. It was leaner public people did not think Democrats had a chance and hear much like the Conor Lamb one. So you know this will be very tight re, so that is Tuesday August seven
that raise that were watching another clothes raisin August. Seventh is the gubernatorial pray.
Murray in Michigan, between Gretchen Whittemore and Abdul Alcide. We
had Abdul on them hard when we went to Ann Arbor Michigan and we love em, we love em. I have to say to you
just be one of the more inspiring candidates. That's I've encountered over the last couple years since instruct became president. You be the first muslim governor of Michigan he's very progressive. You know he's format of care for all his opponent wants to strengthen Asia and further expand Medicaid, but of dual has come up with this
big huge proposal, Medicare for all Michigan fifteen dollars, minimum wage, these very big progressive ideas, so I'm pulling from an upper a primary out, it's a longshot but be seen a lot of long shots right when that's right and so
that you know Alexandria cause. Your court has been their campaigning with them, so that's pretty exciting, and then you know after that, after next next week, after the
primaries in elections. We don't have many more before the big ones. Now now, just
one day on which America's future will be determined statehood. When we come back we'll talk to
boxes, derelict potter,
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bud cash on the blood. Today we have Darrow end from Vocs Dara. I have
Every time something happens regarding him
nation, you are the very first reporter. I turn to you. Ve done fantastic reporting on immigration and unfortunately, we have had to do quite a bit of
in the Trump era. Yes, so I was good news is that I know I've. Never gonna get shifted off the beat rights right right so
the deadline. Last week,
the federal government to reunite family separated at the border under the president, zero tolerance, immigration policy, federal,
He said that they met the deadline and have reunited the last of the eligible court on court. Eligible families
what have you learned from your reporting about? What's been done so far in the question
still remain about the government's policy. So you know the government did
you a lot more than it looked like a few weeks ago. They are gonna, be able to do if you remember a few weeks ago when they had the insult. An initial deadline to
reunite kids under five. It really look
like they were struggling to get anybody reunited at that point,
so you know we as reporters
Gee there about to have to reunite couple thousand more kids in two weeks. This really doesn't look plausible and they indeed review
made a lot of children with their families in something on the order of of fifteen hundred or so data.
Turned around and said that seven hundred kids were not eligible for reuniting. So you know they said well, we they kind of defined
success down and then said: hey, we succeeded
by saying that children whose parents had already been deported, of whom there are about four hundred and fifty weren't,
eligible by saying that parents who are still in custody, weren't eligible- you know ones
cases they just haven't, found the parents
already released them from ice custody at so in others, kind of the question
what's going to happen, because the judge
particularly appear to believe that it's ok, just like let those families not get reunited and sir
One of the questions right now is whose results
stability. Is it to do what needs to be done to find parents to reunite families? And then the other question is what happens to the families who have been reunited, because at this point about it,
Thousand parents who have just been reunited with their kids have already, like their court cases, have already
and did they have already lost legally any chance. They had to stay in the? U S, they ve been in an ordered, deported, it's just that that order hasn't been acted on yet so
legally, they kind of face the difficult question of whether they are supposed to stay with their children and have everybody go back to their home country and
in a reduce any chance that child has to stay in the? U s himself or except to be separated again, which lake is a choice.
That you know the ACLU? Has you has said that parents of Saint Seventeen year olds are gonna be more comfortable making that choice than taking them back to a central american country where they could be no victims of gang violence? The problem
is that over the weekend, the
a you are pro bono lawyer, you know, testified on their behalf that several parents had been kind of coerced into taking v. Take your kids with you option that they had been told there. Isn't that that's the option you have to sign on the form,
one parent was given the form with that option checked off in pen already they were yelled at if they
said no. I want to be deported, but let my child stay in the: U S, and then they were too
the day in ok, fine, you know, get off the basket your stuff and that they couldn't see their kids and say good, bye,
kids again, so they were effectively. Greece
it without any chance to say goodbye like watching
our children. They know right off.
The bus without them. If that
If those allegations are true and again, you know, D signed allegation in court,
is from a lawyer, so she's under penalty of perjury, but fear
Finally, you know people might be lying to her, but if that's not the case, then we-
real. He suggestive evidence that the government is trying.
Coerce people into like withdrawing.
Their children's court cases so that they can deport, thought
tens of thousands of people instead of just kind of on the order of hundreds over the next few days so of availability.
Or separately. One is the family had been reunited, but but but to these children that are still separated. This term eligible is a pretty sinister bureau
the term right because you know
these are children with families to sit.
They're not eligible to return to their families is a sure. If you break it down is pretty despicable. How do you
The result is or how do you break down those groups of that in that five hundred, some of them are children of parents
and separated some of them are children of people who couldn't prove that they were pair
answer in some other ways, weren't here with their parents. Some of them
children that may have been trafficked right, which is something that the Trumpet administration is suggested, has been part of this all long. Do you know that
down within this five hundred and an amongst those that have been truly, you know, basically kidnapped because they ve been take
by the? U S, government in their parents have been sent other country. What do you think the hopes are of getting them back to their families? So
it's worth noting that the government has been doing this shall gain
definitions. It's not officially saying in its seven hundred at this point, it's not officially saying that there are seven hundred who are ineligible period,
saying that they were ineligible or weren't available as of Thursday. So it's not totally clear which,
those two categories. Any given group, as in by you know that includes the
artists group, and it was four hundred and thirty as of when they totalled it up at the end of last week.
There are certain states. Instead, it's more like foreign debt and fifty parents who have been deported. The government just went to the judge and said look were definitely not gonna, be able to find these parents, but the deadline, we're just gonna
try to reunite the families that we know where they are in there in the? U S first, so you no kind of the,
question right now that judge,
The case literally on Monday said: you're gonna have to put
you're gonna have to send me and the ACL you a plan for how you expect to reunite these kids with their parents,
but there is also a hundred and twenty parents who
already waved reunification, as does the phrase that they use. They agreed to be reported on their own without their kids. Ferries
for the reasons that we cannot just laid out. The judge has been
especially sceptical that any parent would be. Ok with that
would willingly sign that form. So there's been a
of pressure on the government to go back to parents who have wave reunification and say are you sure was that there were these are,
explain to you where they explain to you in Spanish. Did you have time to talk to your child before you did that, of course, with what has happened over the weekend, its power?
with that kind of. Are you sure pressure might be happening on the four parents? You didn't wave reunification as well. They
there are also
in cases where it's pretty clear, that the government is planning to just refuse right base at said, in twenty one cases, there was a red flag for the adult, from the background check or for its forty six firm and,
case review those
our parents who may have passed criminal records
But there was one case from the younger children where the parent was living with someone. You had a domestic violence conviction, and so they said
knock and release the child to you until you get. You know you fix
you're living situation so that it safer they haven't,
for sure. Like acts of these children were trafficked, they didn't come. What do they say? They came with its. They haven't been able to
turn numbers out that have suggested that many children are being trafficked, but it's probably gonna be a pretty. You know endeavour
jewel going down the list process with the government, the gas emu and the judge trying to figure out
the situation, is for each of these families, and that me,
this is something that the public is pretty to the ACL. You has done a pretty solid job of working with the government behind closed doors,
in there's only been one point where negotiations have broken down and at that point they have kind of come out to the public and said he
is what we think is going on, so you know I would. I would urge
well who might be sceptical of the government's representations about whether its reunited families to in a prostitute
the ACL, you is going on this because they are not signing off on representations. The people have been reunited or that people
be reunited I without having decent evidence. You are to peace last week saying that there is evidence that suggests the trumps border policy hasn't just been.
Rule but ineffective. What evidence suggests that? Why do you think that might be the case so
of the many reasons that various Trump administration officials offered for why they were
ass. One of them was that they were going to stop people from trying to come to the Eu S. To begin with, to seek asylum
that you know it was either they were trying to make us
but that argument that was a dangerous journey, which was the argument that, in the Obama administration Maiden twenty fourteen when it
hey surgeon families crossing into the EU.
Or there is a saying people
becoming to the: U S and
staying in Mexico. We
too generous laws, therefore we're gonna, cracked
We're gonna stop them from coming. There isn't evidence that cracking down on how you treat people once they get here stops more people from coming in the future. There
they were operating on very good evidence when they started the policy. The only Internal Sea
history that air the only statistic they said it internally was about a pilot project,
and that they ran along one sector of the border last summer, and that statistic was
it bore. No relation to the actual numbers for what was happening in that sector of the border last summer. I and furthermore, if you look at that,
pilot programme and also at the Obama Administration use of family detention, which is what the trouble
this region has said they would rather be doing as plan aid, but are prevented from doing by the Florence quarters.
And neither of those resulted either
the time or even, if you assume it takes. You know a few months for this effect to show up they didn't
Salt in any
changes in people coming in that were discussed
from what you would normally expect seasonably. So like
normally you have a lot fewer people coming in July and August than you do having in April and may so. If you,
change policy in say, may or June, and then say a whole, there are fewer people coming in its easier
get seem like it worked, but actually that
Just the normal seasonal changed the you're, taking advantage of once you take that out of the equation and that
analytical work on this was done by
Tom Long, whose political scientist out at you see Sd Vit, ITALY. You basically cannot see any difference.
Depending on what policies the? U S, government is pursuing in whose coming in so disturbing back. You know we
I know that this policy may be an effective beyond that. It has been
HANS of scandal and evidence of human rights abuse.
On television, there's been continent,
for Democrats and even Republicans invisible
policy of family separation that began with serve a goal of cruelty from the White House.
Ideological aim, but it seems like even they were surprised by just what happened when sort of the bureau.
She went about implementing this and the consequences unforeseen of what happened so we're here now you know they're still, children separated determination is still unwinding. This decision. What do you think
They have learned in there. You know about the head into another immigration battle. Trumped up today said he wants to shut down the government over immigration. What do you think
learned from their experience of implementing this cruel policy,
you do not have any intention of speculating one way or the other on that? Just because we haven't seen what happened.
can see a world where the conclusion from this is we can't get to
Sabre rattling our rhetoric because then will engender a massive backlash. You can see why,
where they look at best and look at the implementation of the first travel ban back in January and go wow
We really need to actually train people in what they are doing and have a plan, in effect before we implement the policy, because one of the things that become incredibly clear,
family separation, is that they
exactly what they wanted to do in separating families. They don't appear to have concluded that they didn't want to reunite them, but they just did.
Bother to have any plan in place for what happened after they were separated too
point, were literally in the record, keeping software that
border patrol used. There was no
category to put a person who had been
Member of the family unit, who was then set
did they had to create this category called deleted family units, which is not the
the thing that you want to come out in the press, delete
family units is, I would say,
among the most disgraceful bits of bureaucratic har that I think we have ever seen, not a great phrase. Its
the lot and you know it's not it's not clear whether there
looking at that and going she we did that badly. You know we shouldn't have done that. We shouldn't have pursued that policy. Whatever is saying we should
we see that policy, but had better plans in mind.
They're saying you know why this problem
started when people freaked out about. I statistic about prior children who had come unaccompanied and been lost in the system. It got one
ass when they didn't let people let senators into in owed the tensions
it got much worse when they start
letting the press into detention centres and people started kept coming out.
Video and audio
Maybe the lesson here is, you know: don't do any
in that the public might be able to see or don't do anything within. U S in territory like one
Big priorities for the trumpet menstruation right now is getting Mexico.
To sign a safe third country agreement, which would basically prevent these
less from having to take any asylum seeker who had been met. It would cross their Mexico, like that.
A great and run around a lot of the political problems that the Trump Administration has been facing. The question of whether
Say superior strategy depends on whether you're
more concerned about how people are treated as asylum seekers or whether you are more concerned about the kind of prospects that they have. Ultimately,
adding legal status
we'll talk a little bit about the abolish ice movement. The Democrats, some Democrats hoof, come out again,
This have basically made the argument that
what's truly needed. The most effective policy here would obviously be comprehensive immigration reform that
You know: offer pathway to citizenship for undocumented people on this country,
and that would sort of take care of a lot of these problems. To me,
I always thought- and in this is partly due to our experience.
The Obama administration, remembering that, when Obama tried to repay
or a ties, ices enforcement goals
a they drag their feet, to say the least. Do you think
I know that was a a lesson in bureaucratic cultural rights of their books should be written about. Yes, so might my thought is of course, Democrats should push for comprehend.
Immigration or form like we have been in? That's obviously the most effective policy goal here, but it doesn't seem like doing so
would necessarily fix all of the problem.
Comes and now, as we ve seen the Trump era. Even
abuses that are committed
I said you would do you think of I guess both ie
abolish, eyes or reform eyes as a policy and also you know, what's come
ice to Sub committee.
But the abuses that they ve been committed at the real question that
would love to see people kind of drill down on on this?
which is what I want to offer you in lieu of an answer, because I
I believe that as a jewish pod, castor, it is my prerogative to answer the question of the question by the. What I really want to see is how the you're right that a lot of the criticism of ice comes down to the kind of institute
a culture of it right. The fact that
when there was an administration that was true,
to be more dervish on immigration enforcement. It got massive push back from innovation.
Finally to saying that is not,
our job, our job,
to have a wide degree of latitude. We are so
To be the ones deciding who did a port, you are keeping us from doing our job. I dont know,
how much that is based
into the institutional culture of an immigration Foresman agency period. I dont know how much that's me
an agency that hired during a relatively hawk,
administration, or at least a republican administration. That then turned relatively hawkish.
I don't know how much that is just that lake. When you get rid of you know, I've heard one theory that when the
immigration and naturalisation service was under d o J, the people who had to sign off on everything, rule lawyers because D, o J and then when he moved it under the age s
The lawyers weren't in the chain of command anymore, and so they didn't feel as much need to justify things. You know there are lots of
of levels on which this can be a problem that all have different remedy is rightly
no, if the model here, if you're talking about
form is something like a consent, decree like you have a local police departments will hear you know the various age. There is judicial oversight and
a lot of your internal processes, get kind of the guts get opened up for monitoring. That is a possibility
I think that there is something rotten in the institutional culture, but that there is something
worthwhile about the mission statement
No, on the other hand, what happens if you say we,
Do not want to have an internal immigration enforcement agency now
Do we already have one rightly now that people,
there are eleven million people without authorization in this country. Look a lot of local.
Hops are now used to being able.
To arrest people and send them over to get deported. You know I'd if you just kind of take that out of the equation
especially if you're still leaving those people, unauthorized aid
oh really know. If something, then steps
the kind of feel that gap around the edges, because the government still does have deportation power or if people just kind of go,
ok- well, that's a nice thing. You know if, if hawk
that would be a nice thing that we could do, but I guess we'll have the resources to do it anymore will presumably in situations where people can vile arrested for crimes violent crimes right there. Now
system and can be put through deportation, even if they were never rested by ice
you do have at right. You have to put them through a separate immigration court hearing right, you have to get it to find a portable,
so, even even once
he's been convicted. They still have to go through that civil immigration court process and tat to get their final order
It is to be some entity there in between people who have
you know the argument, as we have police there to enforce laws against crimes, and if someone is arrested
for committing a violent crime or crime, and they are here illegally. There can be processed for deportation after that you're saying. They're still needs to be summoned to close that gap between local law enforcement and the role that
currently place. He are. You still have to have somebody who's like making sure the people show up for their immigration court hearings who is taking them into custody once they have final orders, etc, etc. If you're gonna
have you no ice is responsible for fur deportations. If you're gonna
of deportation and you're, not gonna have an agency doing it. I can be
hard to draw the lines of whatever replacement agency in always is supposed to kind of fill in the gaps and funds left
for you, but you ve got a story out today, but the president's travel ban and about a new law suit, alleging that administered the administrations waiver system for worthy families looking to come into the United States,
is essentially a sham who are the same
who file the suit and what are they sang, happened here so this
about a few dozen people
and it's a mix of in? U S, citizens and permanent residents who art petitioning
family members, some of whom are living in the? U S, some of whom are actually like one? U S
and I talk to His- has now moved to Djibouti to be with his wife, because, as is why can't be brought to the? U S? Because she's yemeni answer,
he's been living with her in their son was born there their Sunday, you a citizen by birth, but he's
urban to the? U S eye and
they're, just kind of borrowing, money from friends and waiting to come back over
there are some people-
case, who are say who should be held,
we have been able to come over on the investor visa, they ve no invested. Tens of now
of dollars? In? U S, businesses,
You are helping to manage the businesses, but they can't come over to do it because they are from you know, affected countries
and Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, new.
Yemen is in there. I believe that
others not bad.
My eyes, I want you said that you have made.
Feel embarrassed for having you on the share of yes, no inner city to all the absolutely. It is absolutely the worst thing that has ever happened to me in my entire publics
We agree a journalist. I will. I will justify this by saying that the criteria have changed several times, but anyway, all of these are
families or people who think that they should theoretically be able to qualify for waivers because the
administration, said that in particularly sympathetic cases where there was undue hardship to somebody or
you know where the national, the? U S is national interest was to let this person into the country that they should be
to introduce sign a waiver and let the person come in, but the people in this case
either they ve just been flatly denied, or they
said: yeah you're waiver were considering you for a waiver its pending, and it's been like seven
and they haven't heard anything and because the term
ministration A has never actually created and
application process for the waiver. They just say: oh,
Visa interview, the consular officer will figure out. If you deserve a waiver or not and be they ve, never to find what the
fuel standards are and
how say not being a threat tonight
security is different in a way
her case, then the fact that their justified
I will ban by saying this country, doesn't provide,
as with enough information to say whether any line is a threat to national security. There are lots of unanswered questions.
The process, and so the hope
this lawsuit is that, rather than
end of striking down there.
I ve been entirely like the last round of litigation. Was about that this rule. You know
go through discovery and forced the government to actually lay out here is what we were.
Thinking when we put together this process. Here is how it actually works, and if they can't answer that question to adjust,
satisfaction. We have the judge order there,
to put together the process that they say exists now right.
Feeling that what they were thinking was nothing and what they have to be
You do is begin thinking
Maybe this policy wasn't really connected to national security, but that's just a guess: malevolence and incompetence all the way down
Derek thank you, Sir,
for joining us. We really appreciate it and thanks for all the great reporting you're doing at their thank you team. That's our blood for today, thanks to their land of for joining us and on Thursday I'll be on vacation army will still be on his honeymoon, and so it's a jet sins flintstones
John Love Dan five were coming to applaud near you, gonna be emigrate,
and are going to catch up and find out what is less name, isn't very sad to see that.
Transcript generated on 2020-04-01.