I welcome the pod save america, I'm john fabric of the fight on today show a very special Pursuit of insurrection gives us what might have been. The most shocking

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Casts alright. Let's get to the news on tuesday, the January sixth committee shocked the world with a surprise hearing that revealed donald trump wanted to personally join the violent mob that stormed the capitol after being told that they were armed and dangerous. The star witness was Cassidy hutchinson, the most republican name possible, which is Cassidy Hutchinson. She was a top aide to former white house chief of staff, mark meadows and

Cassidy, as promised by a congressman Jamie Raskin not long ago, blew the roof off the house with the most damning and potentially incriminating testimony ever delivered about the current republican front runner for the presidency. Alright, so we are going to go through the five most batshit crazy moments from the hearings. In a bit, but before we do dan, maybe we should explain to people why Hutchinson's white house job would have allowed this twenty five year old, special assistant, president to see and hear so much. So a couple of things here won t real centres of power in the west wing are the assistance. They know everything they are involved in everything hang at least in our white house. Each and every one of them had the highest security clearance available. They basically help Roy

the place, and if you want to know what's happening, you have to talk this, isn't it's also, I think just I understand it. Special assistant to the president is the third highest rank than the present could give them it does like it. There are people who are assistance in the sense that they had assisted losses which could be clerical. Work schedule at our, but special assistant to the president is a decent. If an official designation, it diggers assistant to the president of their like twenty five or so of those deputy sit in the present in special says it, and so that is that is eight a rank of significance and, I think, more important than any other assesses the p, the chief of staff, because every single decision that is made political weapon, slaves scheduling. Administrative national security involves the chief of staff office so it is not shocking to anyone. I things ever worked in the west wing that this individual be so potent, and I think it's particularly true because. In this testimony, mark meadows seems like a largely absent do face, so

if you needed to get something done in that office, people were clearly going to catch the hutchinson, so she seemed to know even more than the average assistant to the chief of staff were not so it is not surprising adding anyone is working at building, and I think that I this a commonplace ass, she was more basically the the chief of staff to the chief of staff I thought he was just the goat yeah the coast to the coast, because I think the chief of staff does have some assistance that work for them, but they also have like a a chief of staff that sort of runs everything so in a in in according to people who were

the trump white house. Other republicans, she was in every single meeting that mark meadows was in and many meetings that he wasn't in. So she was at the oval I mean her office was was was steps from the oval. I think that's why they decided to show a a map of the west wing of the hearing, just so that you could see like where Cassidy sat was like next to write down the down the hall from the oval from the chief of staff from the deputy chiefs of staff. All all the most of the most senior people in the white house were right there and okay. moment. Number one hutchinson testifies about meadows reaction when she tells him that Rudy giuliani talked about a plan to go to the capital. On january sixth, Remember leaning against the doorway and an interesting conversations. Broody mark sounds like we're going to go to the kapital didn't look up from his phone and said something to effective. There's a lot

long has, but I don't know things get real real bad on january. Sex real, so bad, in other words, not great, not great death. First of all, I liked it that at least fifteen different times in her testimony she talked about how mark meadows refused to look up from his phone, so like first of all great offline guest. I should I should go, get some stuff like thinking about like whoa was he just do you think he was on his phone the whole time, because ginni thomas. wouldn't stop texting him about the coup de I mean maybe do addicted to twitter. Maybe he's setting his line up for his fantasy basketball team. I don't know, but he also, as we know what the railway mister, graham filter, pets we all maybe he's begging to tiktok we also know that he seemed to have spent ninety percent of his time texting the worst people in the world, Eventually, I busy the staff a fox judy thomas

except our and so yeah. Maybe that's what he was doing. So we now know that both meadows, an tromp, had advanced knowledge from multiple sources. The january six might turn violent in advance of january. Sixth, this includes the capital police, the secret service, various national security officials why's that significant, because it in the case that, with that they knew that something back it happen. Not only did they do nothing to prevent it, they actively poured gas on the fire to make it worse and that that matters legally, which will talk about its only matters politically. It is just the absolutely most damaging statement on the kind of people they are yeah. I mean in or around nine eleven never and always talks about the the warning that bush got from the intelligence agencies like been Lun determined to strike within the within the. U s. This is like days and days of like hey, there's, gonna,

the violence there's going to be organized violence, there's going to be people who are armed coming to washington, you have to watch out with it and then trump and meadows just decided they didn't care. They didn't care, in fact, as we'll find out we're encouraging, Okay, so a moment number two hudgens and testifies that various white house staff, but especially white house lawyers, were urging speech writers not to include language in trump's. Stop the steal rally speech that he had demanded, such as quote we're going to march to the capitol and quote I'll, be there with you, here's what hutchinson said that white house counsel paths of bologna told her earlier in this research cyclone. He said something to the effect of. Please make sure we don't go up to the capitol Cassidy, keep in touch with me, we're going to get charges every crime imaginable. If we make that movement happen, and member which crimes MR in was concerned with,

in the days leading up to the sex, we had conversations about. Potentially, injustice or defrauding the electoral account do you remember when I would get testy, because the white house counsel's office would try to make my speeches a less creamy really feel like. I should clear, and just let you redress this because you are one of the most even tempered people, I know, except when speech in its comments, are let you address this. You know here's the thing with the speech at its you know when they come from people like You know that you know the white house office. You know, Axelrod, you any number of people who are too that's that's one thing also when they come at a time we manner in the early drafts right after we appreciate the speech training process, not last minute, fucking at its right before the speech, but when you get all the

branches of government getting involved in giving you at its and they are commonly it's really annoying. But I will say that is annoyed, as I used to get about last minute speech at its right before a speech after Barack Obama had already signed off on what he wanted to say. If someone from the when the white house councils office reached out which they I cannot even remember many times, when they did, but whenever I got an email from great gregg or happy rumbler or anyone worked in the white house counsel's office. My ears would perk up and I was okay well. Yet if the lawyers don't like this, we will make something work. You make something work I mean it is important to recognise those were always like very narrow language changes involving like the hatchet rally,

I going to say they were all hatch accept so basically be like. If we were writing a speech for and this this is, it goes back to why some people probably get annoyed that Joe Biden doesn't go further on things. If you are president there is this law called the hatch act where you have to be careful what you advocate for politically and in a partisan way in your capacity as president state. So if you're at a campaign rally, that's fine if you're giving enough, speech you can say like I wish congress would send me legislation, but you can't necessarily say I wish you would all vote out the republican members of congress, because that could possibly be a hijacked violation. So those are usually the lines that we need to make sure the cross and with the white house council gary. Those are minor things like avoiding basely speeding, tickets right, talking about here, is for, in the words of abalone every crime, imaginative right, like an

active, specific announcement of a crime in commission at the moment is what they were. Referring to. End They did it anyway. They did it anyway they did it anyway early say at least in the case of donald trump. He certainly tried to which we'll get to in a second and so simple, and he was just subpoenaed on Wednesday. What do you thing? committee is looking for from here literally everything he sleek and testify. Do the first person account to verify the things that Cassidy said? it this hearing, but also he clearly in this issue. As we have seen this in other importing a lot of reporter maggie haberman is done in some of these books that simple and he was often the person trying to stop trump and his allies from committing describes stuff, sobbing and failing in many cases, but he was constantly raising the red flag. So he like this is he is the John dene to use the watergate parallel your who could come and speak to it.

And now some people will say. While he's the president's lawyer went about journey client privilege, but he's not the president's liar right. He is the government's liar and there have been it is on a fully assessed principle, but it's mostly white houses operate under the idea that the white house, council and the present essays do not share attorney client privilege when they communicate, and that you would could be compelled to testify about that stops is an absolutely essential witness. It is ridiculous that he is Actually, I've just pure cowardice that he has not cooperating. He is not going to sell because he clearly knows what the president did was wrong was a deeply this person that deeply dangerous person is planning on running for president again and he is refusing to speak out as it maybe he's afraid that whole upset his mega friends or to get your clients whatever it is, but it's very, very frustrating

yeah. There are ways to abide by the the spirit of the privilege law while still constructing testimony. That would be helpful and necessary to the committee here. The new york times reported that a simple oni and people close to him was were surprised that he received the subpoena because apparently he'd been having informal conversations with the committee, but now they want him to testify. You know partly cause of hutchinson's testimony, partly because in all of these hearings every moment from the planning of the coup they overturning of the election, wanting pants to overturn the election d, o J and Jeff clark trying you know trump pressuring them to say that the election was corrupt possible and he was in every single one of those meetings and, according to testimony from other witnesses, cassidy Hutchinson and others in every single instance, pets aplenty was like hey. This is against the law

within earshot of the present united states, who then decided to do it anyway, which would then prove that the president did this knowing full well that what he was doing was against the law, which is what we're trying to prove air if we're in legal situation. One thing that is mildly frustrating here is in the world, in which we imagined we existed, when someone is, has a subpoena deliver to them. That means that they then will testify it now. I know after multiple impeach writs law double oversight investigations. These hearings, that subpoena is basically like latin, for pretty. Please, like it's clear, high clear that a nervously congestion, a police europe to congress. If you have time our moment, number three here: here's where she gets really nuts hutchinson testifies that she heard trump say the following: when he was told that the rioters who showed up for the stop the steel rally at the lips were armed and dangerous and were being stopped at the metal,

actors at the event known as mags, he was told again Conversely conversation or was he told again that our that people couldn't come through the mags because they had weapons crooks and fat people he and his response was to say they can march to the capital from. Is it from the ellipse something if I could have take the bags away. They're not here, to hurt me led the men, let my people they march. They happen after the rallies over they can march from the commercial pls, take backing eyes away. Then they march the capital, take the fucking mags away, they're, not here hurt me and then in march to the capital Dan. I am no lawyer, but Tom Jesus you're allowed to send a mob of armed insurrectionists to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power, so long as it was to make sure You had a decent size crowd, shot on television.

Well, John, I'm not a lawyer either, but also let's. Not after you or me, people listening. There is just one. Ponderous former judge Informative department of he will determine whether that is a crime I mean that's just If that truly is. I know we're going to focus on the the the the steering wheel anecdote here, but I think that to me I mean look, there's plenty of evidence that we've heard already that in that trump was deeply involved in the ah overturning the election part of the coup. Ah, the fake electors getting pence to do Who is the that the pressure on d, o j, etc on me inciting violence and inciting the insurrection part of the coup? I think this is maybe the strongest evidence yet

that trump not only knew there was an armed and dangerous crowd, but that it was fine, welcome them to the event that he spoke at and then hoped and urge them. In fact, too, then, marched to the cap The phrase they are not here to hurt me is the the absolute crystallization of trumpets. Em right is we don't give two shits about what happens to any one else. It is fine because they not hurt me not even not even my my staff My voters or my people are my movement needs just me as all he has ever been about. It he's not fuck and the leader of a movement he's a fucking, selfish, egotistical asshole. Who only cares about himself. That is it now look if we are to be fair to.

Merrick garland. Obviously we have not seen all the evidence. We have not seen these witnesses under cross examination. They have to make a decision. Not just do they have submitted heavens to charge trump, but do they have sufficient evidence to convict trump and that's always a hard thing to do, but, I have to say: if somehow the former president states can dispatch a mob, he knows to be violent in an armed to march on the capital for the purpose of blocking the certification of a legitimate election, and then, when things get violent, he pours gas on the fire by tweeting. About it, if That is something that is not treated as a crime, that there is no legal accountability, for that is just opening the door to so if stuff in this country, it is just giving a permission, slip to the right for a violent takeover of the elections again in two thousand and twenty five that is has two way on the decision makers at the department of justice, like even like.

put the optics aside, but you know whatever shit they're gonna get from the optics police about gene of joy, bides attorney general's prosecuting Joe Biden ends. You know future opponent. that this is a much much more important thing in principle. and its essential that something happens here. Now they will I'm sure trump and the and the and I've seen this already in that the maga assholes will say that their defense will be well in the speech. He also used the word peaceful somewhere in the speech right. That's what they'll say in the rally speech but like Now you know that was one thing. It was never believable. It was one thing right after it happened now that we know all this, that he was there that he wanted them to come through the met. They want to take the mags away that he didn't think they were going to hurt him that he still wanted an armed and dangerous crowd to go to the capital that he won to join them. Another other that fucking steamer, does the whole. Oh, I included the word peaceful once in the speech bullshit

may peaceful is a purely constructed alibi. It's not evidence of innocence. I moment number four. which will surely live in infamy hutchinson testified that white has deputy chief of staff, tony or nato told her the following story about what happened when trumps driver secret service agent, robert angle, told the president that he couldn't go to the capital. The president said something to the effect of I'm. The acting president take me up to the capital now to which Bobby responded. Sir. We have to go back to the west wing, the president reached up towards the front of the vehicle to crab at the steering wheel, mister angle, grabbed. His arm said, sir, to take your head off the steering wheel, we're going back to the west wing, we're not going to the kapital.

Mr trump then used his free hand to lunch towards Bobby angle in this this or not. I had recounted. The stories me hid motion towards his corpuscles, so anonymous secret service sources have been telling reporters that this incident did not happen again, equally as hutchinson testified, and that or not oh and angle, are prepared to testify to that effect. What do you think is going on here? Well, three points, the first is Hutchinson didn't testified tat. She saw this. She terror that someone told her this antonio, not oh, who was a secret service agent, who left the secret service to accept the political job working for donald trump, who is now since returned to the secret service. According to this, a fairer trumps communications director turned in our view, host aspirant, I don't know, but has been- she has been out of their alive sort of explaining cassie acheson's role.

She tells a story about how till she said. See it and I believe to jack tapir that he or she knows, attorney or not out his previously wide in order to defend tromp over the ah to push back against a less affair is reached. Hunting of how they lafayette square photo up during the the twenty twenty protests happened, and so that is a reason to question whether that he is doing that once again. Third- and I think most importantly, who cares, this is by far the least important thing that she revealed in hurt, the money it does not matter. It is not. It would not be part of a criminal case whether trumpet lunged fought for the steering wheel, whether he grabbed summons classical key. double toward someone's clavichord, whether he simply yelled is irrelevant. It is more an example of just how potential

unhinged in dangerous. He is and why he should not be one of the many reasons. Why should I be president? But the fact that cable news twitter. Everyone is obsessing about this, as we are missing the forest for the trees here, and I think that is a few inches. The obsession with this is just an indictment of so much of political media, political twitter. What we focus on cause- it's It's like exciting and we can imagine the scene where it happens. It doesn't matter. We have to focus on the criminal intent of what happened and what that means for a legal case and what it means. Politically, this thing is dumb. I haven't been. I haven't ever the sort of Agatha new years resolution I haven't yelled about like really dumb media coverage and a few pods, I guess, but, like you know, NBC news of all places had some line that was like this, this chipped away. At the credibility

her testimony fuck. You know it did not like she like. You said she is recounting a story. The torch, tony or not, o told her if he exaggerated the story or if he lied about the story. That's not fucking cassidy, hutchinson problem, that's tony or not as problem, also think you said it matters so little. Here's what we know for sure that, with the secret service has confirmed what trump has a interview is that he wanted to go to the capital. We know that you want to go to the capital. That is not dispute. We also know that he was angry because he wasn't allowed to go to the capital. That is not in dispute by the secret service backdrop. So, whether was just foil and around in the in the limo, whether he lunge, he made it all the way to the steering wheel, which look is even the most agile guy. I don't think so. Is he known to move quickly not so much but like shirley, he was screaming, and yelling of georgia

the case so whether he, whether he reached the classical or not whether he reached the steering wheel or not, does not matter a fucking wit just doesn't matter, I mean later many people were, no cassidy, hundreds and testified, and am sure others can can account for this too, that he got mad when he read the ape story about bill bar saying: there is no fraud in the election and he threw his fuckin burger at the wall on the white house and there is catch up all over the wall. I am sure that happened. If I didn't who cares again but like how many stories we have to hear about trump fuckin losing his shit and throwing his round before we realize they're, probably true stories or some version of it. You know it's ridiculous. It's really really ridicule. and, like you said, I think it's another purport important point to like tony or not does not seem like back. Guy is fucking on the level like look you're in the secret service. You leave for a political job

they all and then in an carolina, the washing opposed to wrote a book both on the secret service and helpful records. I write a book on trump has noted that or I do an angle where both known as trump, yes, men, they were very close to trump. They were like his pals, and you know MIKE pence's aide didn't want to send mike pence in the motorcade leaving the capital during the vote count because he was worried that tony or not oh and his goons would like take my pens away somewhere and actually lake put put him at risk so, like that's, a little people tony or not within the trumpet mean that is a wild wild anecdote I mean, and look in the secret service was initially responded that anecdote. Oh, that's, that's! That's not a story, had heard before so like I don't other, we gotta know right now how much we can trust trust with secret

Thirdly, I think we're having you- and I should probably leases take one second to note that we have seen worked with being overrun were around circe residents of a time in the overwhelming, like these are the exception. Not there really are rolling. Majority of them are just basically patriots who were for either president without each other was ever sir, we were worried about them taking us somewhere. If you got the wrong car right, they are hundred percent, but you know trump corrupts everyone. And so do. I believe that there is a few secret service agents deforested. Yes, of course, of course, one last moment from the testimony which again shows the unbreakable bond between donald trump and his vice president. I remember hats I need to get back to margaret need to do something more they're, literally calling for the vice presidents. The effing hung and mark had responded something to the effect. Have you heard of hot things like deserves that he doesn't think they're doing anything wrong seems a coup basa

they died, tony or not. Owen and all his sources didn't pushed back on that one I mean really struggling with the fact that we ve been talking about the hang my pants thing for a year and a half now in every time funny? I don't know it should not. I know I'm. It should not be funny it's not funny, but it is but for some reason I don't know what it's not my pants, that is the only is the only person whose murder is socially acceptable after his every one last Democrats republic, in some of the media, people can keep a straight face, what they think about it, but I don't know what to say its veto, it look it's a horrifying thing that the president had stayed said is horrifying. Nor is it the horrifying that there was a fucking, violent maud. They tried to that were calling for the hanging of vice president. It states that the horrifying- but you know trump and trumpet my pants, no love lost

I just love there in the world in which trumpet is the twenty twenty four republican nominee imagine, the thought process for potential vice president's. like I'd like to fly on air force to and I'm willing to risk murder for it Yeah like on one hand, I make it to be a vice president. On the other hand, if things go south, he might toss me to a violent mob. So you know so that got some pros and cons. Alright, a few more questions before we move on how much you think hutchinson's testimony affects the legal, the potential legal case against trump. Once again you and we got we get potential seditious conspiracy, incitement to violence, obstruction of a congressional proceeding and conspiring to defraud the. U S, that's what we got, that's the constellation, potential charges I mean you and I will, as you pointed out, not liars. All of the lawyers on twitter seem to think that is quite damning for trump. If this evidence for a hold up under cross examination in and other evidence is confirmed by other testimony,

The pressure on their agreement to do something is incredibly high adds let there all of the defences that trumps, It's allies have previously offered. Are you visited by hutchinson testimony? Here's a quote: the department is clearly look. Into this in this hearing definitely gave investigators allowed to chew on from former attorney jet. Bill bar the bed to the new york times when you know you're you're in the shit right there, you got Billy Barr out there telling you dumped me the fact that there is a lot to chew. On I mean yeah. Look I like. I said. I think that, on the you know, there's two parts of the two parts of the coup: there's the overturning the election part and there's the sticking the violent mob on the on congress. Part, and I think so far. A lot of these hearings have been lending a lot of evidence on the first and not the and not the second, and I think the surprise that

behind this. Testimony certainly gives investigators to of how to chew on, in the words of bill bar on whether trumps words and actions incited violence, which, of course, would be a crime, so whether they'll be able, like you, set this difference between indictments and convictions and if you're, going after of potential a former and potential future president, you get a big you get to feel pretty strongly that you can get a conviction, but am but yeah I mean I do wonder about the political case against trump, if there is any justice in this world, because a hungry said last time, there's not just you know, lawyers and juries that we have to think about, but there's a larger jury witches. the american electorate, which is going to have a chance to render their verdict on donald trump, potentially in twenty twenty four starting with republican voters.

Do you think, there's enough new and explosive information here to strengthen the political case against trump certainly leon among us. I think we have decided. Then we you and I have rendered our verdict and probably every single person listening to this, but after has done the same, but for those who are still thinking about voting for donald trump again if he runs what I mean folks like rusty bowers of arizona folks like yeah. What do I exactly someone when are we rusty bowers? What a rusty bowers think about think about cassidy, hudson's testimony he still thinking about voting for donald trump. Like I mean paper. This should be so damn that no one would ever publicly support trump ever get that and being associated with him would be making a persona non grata and polite society that's, obviously not going to happen, the overwhelming majority of from space is going to stick with them but I don't think that's how we should judge the success of this- that we should do

the success of whether it it does to things wine helps people under stared. Who trump is what he did and just how dangerous he was and is in the polling. Thus far there is evidence. Is that is working right. The number in the in some of the only we've seen the number of people who believe trump should be charged with a crime has gone up not down since this hearing started. Support for these hearings in this investigation has gone up not down. Since I started, and in the number of people who support trump a huge number, but it includes two in ten republicans. Think trump should be charged with a crime, and that's a like that is a big deal there in order to win trump has to hold his base, and so I do think it could change the you know the calculus about whether trump runs the appetite for him to run within the republican party. Were he not to be charged with a crime and like that matters? But I think we like the point of these hearings in the point of what marriage.

Well, windows is about trump. What he did. The rest of us have to make a case that it's not about just about trump in the past. It's about trump, the republicans in the future, because if we simply swap wine. Section is for another within the republican party in the white house. They were in huge trouble that is the one thing that I think really comes because you know, as you say, the the jury, Well, you know the the broader jury will weigh in twenty four, but also there is it. There is another trial in twenty twenty two and, if yep and every Republican not named cheney? Consider and romney continues to stand with trump and not just tolerate, two enthusiastically seek his support to brand themselves from problems to beg him to campaign for them, and if there is no political price for that in

the selection in one bolded him in all, born the republicans at twenty twenty four? I was talking to a democratic strategist. Who was made the point that you know? Obviously, Terry Mcauliffe failed to tie Glen young into donald trump, famously in that virginia gubernatorial race, but he also pointed out like that. Wasn't during the january sixth hearings he's like imagine. If the election in virginia was in a couple of weeks and glen young kin was being asked every single day. What do you think about donald trump? Are you still support? You know? Are you supportive of donald trump are used And- and I think it would who knows what would have happened, but it would be much more difficult and I do think, like every single candidate, up in a competitive district or state, and twenty two's can have to answer for the fact that they are still embracing this guy? Who his former employees are now testifying wanted to join? the violent mob that attacked

capital knowing that they were armed and dangerous. That is who you are embrace it if you're a republican candidate in and twenty. I think this is one very important political element to cassie Hutchinson's testimony, which is it ties trump very specifically to the violence that happen on general sex in the fact that he wanted to join. You want to leave that mob. He wanted to them to follow him. I imagine quite slowly on he walked to the capital and. we know in pulling that, even though seventy percent of republicans think the election was stolen in some way shape or form. We know that majority. The republicans oppose these hearings. We do know that eight and ten republicans oppose what happened. I generous x, and so the fact that trunk was involved in that is very, very damning,

Last question before I move on just sort of a curiosity that we have all had since these hearings like why. Obviously this this was like you know, bombshell explosive testimony, but why did they hold the surprise hearing when they had just announced that they were done until after the July fourth holiday? Or do you think reason for the urgency of the hearing was well. I think we know a little bit about this from some of the reporting in some of casio Johnson's colleagues talking to the press, but it seems to be a couple things happen She has been cooperating clearly very fully with the committee for a long period of time. she recently switched attorneys an attorney she had If you see was, I think, more soda, like mobbed up in trump world in the new wine, is a conservative republika. He were for Jeff sessions previously, but I think it can take. It is represented his client very specifically, and not the former president, and I think there was Maybe some react.

Sure to some of the criticisms she got from the right after her videotapes s, money by such a prominent, the previous hearing and wanted to get out there and tell her story, and I think, to points of urgency to move forward. One is Perhaps she did not want to spend three or four weeks waiting for commercial recess to end, to actually tell that story to just sit out their unable to defend herself and the second one from the committee I think, was previewed at the end. When when these cheney brought up the fact that some of their witnesses have received pressure from tromp associate, saying things like he's paying attention. He reads the transcripts before they testify and punch ball today reported that one of the text messages that list cheney showed The screen was too hutchinson now any threat that includes donald trump reading transcripts is probably an idle threat, but even so

All that is witness, tampering, plain and simple, just fuckin mobbed up assholes right to the end. Just didn't, develop mass mobsters right, it's like dumb as monster, yet it's like it's like sopranos cosplay, but just the with a worse possible writing all right when we come back dan talks to Amy westervelt of the crooked pod hot. Take about the next steps. climate, after the supreme court's epa decision this morning. The supreme court issued its last major ruling of this session and it was yet another ship, murder and sixty free ruling. The conservative majority wrote that president by does not have the power to enforce emission standards through the epa joining us to discuss the future of climate change policy in this country is the host of crickets fantastic climate, podcast heartache, Amy Westerwelle, Amy. Welcome to the pot thank

thanks for having me on this great to have exercised just we're just run it every day. Every part is like another guest asked to explain something terrible to people, but that's why you're here so we ve done. This right was coming for. While can you just help walk through what the court did and where this case came from? Four allison Who may have been preoccupied with the other her? his decisions of the supreme court over the last seven days. Yes, so, first of all, I have to say that actually, I was relieved when I saw this decision because it could have been so much worse and it's actually quite narrow. It focuses specifically on this section of the clean air. Act that has to do with whether or not the e p a can regulate emissions beyond the fence line of power plants, so whether ec it has authority beyond just kind of saying one powerplant at a time. What the emissions can be

each place so that he'd near they definitely got into basically saying don't you dare implement that clean power plan, but it is still leaves a bit of authority for both the epa and other governmental agencies. to regulate greenhouse gas emissions is preserved. Lake Whether or not we know it happens is another question. Frankly, the supreme court should never taken this case. It is a case about the clean power plan, which was never employee, it did and the entire major questions doctrine that got the court to take this up, which is this idea that you know when there's something passed by an agency that has a big impact politically or economically. The court can weigh in and that was introduced into this holes. story by scott brunette under tribe scott permit before he was epa director under tremble, was the head of the republican attorney

general association and as such, mounted this case. So that, like this, is you know, the coal industry is last ditch effort to to try to stave off specifically c o two emissions regulations and- and I you know like I said I was relieved by the ruling. However, I think that like had it not been the weirdest case for them ever to even take up, it would have been worse, and I think we can expect that in some cases in the near future, so relieved to hear you say it could have been worse. Ok as the recently these days, it's just worse, gas guided good thing is notable because conflict of interest are very invoke the supreme court these days but yeah. Yet what is specific impact of this decision on what the Biden administration can do. And how does it affect if at all, any of the way slave proposals that are survive.

Going around your mansions houseboat right now? Yes, I mean what it says is that you have to pass legislative proposals. If you want to do this and it doesn't necessarily preclude the e p, a from using other sections of even the clean air act to get at this. So, for example, section one fifteen says that if there is an international agreement around pollutants, there is that that you know that the e p a has the authority to regulate us sources of those emissions. So that is something that has not yet been invoked. It could be the e p. A could also use the toxic substances control act to get at in house gas emissions there's a petition for them to do that right now. The epa is already authorized to regulate particulate matter, which guess what is created by the same thing that generates greenhouse gases, the combustion

fossil fuels. So I really like you want to discourage people from lying like oh now, we can do anything about climate change. That is not true. That is not what this ruling sides There is still plenty of authority both at a big executive branch within congress and within the regulatory agencies, to do a multitude of things about this, and is this debts of the the efforts that a lot of states as soon as possible? california, washington, an organ of undertaken or should also be a but continue to proceed under this absolutely yes, the states are fine. California is passed at fifty billion dollar climate package, and that is moving forward and you know I mean- there's been some various analyses that have shown that the market on its own has already driven like the the emissions reductions that we would have seen from the clean our plan, you ve tahoe. So it's hilarious to me that the people that are always squatted about

The free market are the ones that are that are fighting regulations that would actually be consistent with where the market is going on ass. You, If the free market people who also adamantly oppose ending the tax subsidies for highly profitable oil companies, those people- yes, yes, correct, those same people, yeah yeah, so I mean again like obviously it's not great, but it you know, I saw people being like they're going to make it illegal to regulate c, o two. No, that has not happened. So you know We live to breathe another check, you ve, moved red, polluted air and other day on a rapid behind planet. Yes, I am, This is an unusual experience for us in recent weeks to talk about Supreme court decisions that are not as hard as bad as they could have possibly been yet. So I'm struggling with this element of optimism personally by does it make any might which is out of my mind? Nature is not my usual mode

so I feel is obviously that that says a lot right there, but you you indicated earlier that they could strike down other authorities. Are there of any sort of bread, crumbs or canaries in the coal mine in any of the opinions here that suggested that could be in the offing. Yes, I think that's epa is going shoes struggle with particularly anything that has to do with generation of power, so they seem to have to be drawing the line between you now well I'm putting a cap on emissions and dictating to the power sector, what type of power they can generate, and so I I think that no matter, I honestly think that they should probably just give up trying to

is the cleaner act. The cleaner act is extremely vague, like everyone has no not forever right, it's very, very vague. If we could possibly, you know, re authorize the cleaner act with some space fix rumours. That would be amazing but Joe mansion, so you know, I think that that both the possibility of doing that is probably pretty slam. I actually think that that the toxic substances control. Act has much more explicit language that would allow them to to get this. I think you know me. I honestly, I think that that up that anything they try to do around specifically discouraging coal, is going to be tough to get

ass these guys. I also think there was a weird section of the ruling were. Roberts was, like you know, like basically acted like the epa was overstepping its boundaries because they're not tasked with being in charge of the end gi system, in the? U s so to me I was like oh shit dio. He be getting more involved than roberts because it seemed to be like a a bone of contention for them that, like oh well, if you're talking about trying to transition the- our system, that that belongs to the duty and or two to congress, to authorize some sort of other legislation. Can you say a little more about what using the toxic substances act would mean? Does that would that require someone in the government declaring c o two to be a toxic substance yeah? So there's a petition at the PA right now it's filed a couple of weeks ago. Asking them to make a determination,

whether greenhouse gases pose a risk to human health or the environment. I think it it's very unlikely that a bite and a pa will come out and say greenhouse gases pose no threat to human health or the environment, and so I assume there's going to be some kind of determination made there. They have sixty days to reply and the toxic substances control act was just strengthened, bipartisan support in twenty sixteen to explicitly say that they must make decisions about how to reduce the risk of a toxic substance to human health and the environment, absent political concerns or financial concerns. That's huge, because that is the thing that they reference over and over again in its ruling, is that this would have major economic implications. This way,

It increase the cost of of energy for americans across the board and there are a lot of political considerations to take into account here. So this would you know using Tosca would remove like half of of robert's. No justification in this ruling is fascinating and last question for you we're getting to the end of this legislative session you know democratic majorities are at risk. Do you have any insight or hope or optimism that early run? This optimism thing any hope. Optimist Democrats can get something done on climate legislatively before the end of the year, at the federal level,

maybe I mean it'd be great. We could. We could definitely get this determination from Tosca by the end of the year. They have to reply, you know and that could trigger rulemaking, which would be good. I also think, and they also, they already agreed to tightened the regulations on particular matters, and this is something that scott. it, stopped under trump. The cleaner advisory board publish their study anyway. To say, like we really need to restrict this more and now the bite me pay has said yeah. Actually we do we're going to tighten regulations on particulate matter. So that's actually you know, I know its, not we don't call it climate birth and very much. It would have an impact, and that is moving forward. That should be done by the end of the year. There are a few, that's good, that this isn't a shockingly optimistic fee. Optimism, field interview, ok, let's actual last final question. Now, if there are people who not share your optimism,

Now my optimism about this, but are just generally angry at the court and want to do something to help with climate. You have any of the any place you would direct them to go to give their time or money or energy I say: well, there's there's this group called see it's the climate protection. And restoration initiative they're the ones behind this epa petition on Tosca. I think that by what they're doing is really interesting and they have the support of james hands, evidence of the climate scientists to cut I first brought this problem to the masses to begin with, and also richard Hedy who's, the guy that that did the carbon majors report, which is that report. That's like seventy companies are responsible, for you know eighty percent of emissions or whatever it is. I have those numbers wrong, don't quote me, but it's that report at home, so those folks are doing some really really interesting stuff, and I also think like getting involved at the state and local level is huge right now and really really.

It's because you know, I think, the one thing that that the supreme court seems to not wanna touches is the states rates, as you re so so so think, getting the state level too, and the other thing is. I had someone suggest me the other day that that climate people look at pressuring the fed more because a scope, as will never fuck with the fad, be there is actually a lot, but they can do their authorized to do a lot of things that would make it harder for fossil fuel projects to get built an easier for renewables get fell, so I, Do you think that that's an area that that would be good to to see some more pressure applied, fascinating interview, thanks for breaking this down for us Amy, always great to talk to you and we'll see you again soon. Thank you, Ok, we could

and a week like this, without one more round of take appreciate or chief take officer, eliza cone is with There was no shortage of republican reactions from tuesday congressional hearing in Elijah's. Gonna hit us with some of the favorites. yes skies. Welcome back and take appreciate is Sinn edition but today face are funding donald trump, every after cassidy, hutchinson testimony in front of january sixth, many on tuesday. So it's to say that they all terrible. Instead, it will be grading our contestants on how big, since four trump they are on a scale of one to four cents. Instead of earning a full playbook will be awarded the biggest since the full rudy, John and Dan. What is it? You, don't you tell me, sit here

Gee rated version is it's a person who is desperate for affection from someone who is not going to give it to them. What's the woods with this is a g, show what's the other regions, family misogynistic essay sovereign power plant on that will occur. My dollar, forty one, so I don't know. I think that Okay, let's face it on a day. I have not heard these takes, so let's go ahead and dive in with a club from a real grade, a asshole kyle whenever you're ready, jason, extreme only junior low level aid. I don't think I've ever had a conversation with her that I can at least recall it. if any substance or death, but but to always point this the workshop test for your sanity. If you hurt story, and you thought man. I believe every word that I'm gonna go on line say something about it. Energetically to something is wrong with you. I guess

what an annoying voice- and I can't place it- who can that day it sounds a little like Matt gates, but not really. I don't think it's maggots on ahead. Yeah there will be great warmer trump, a man a fish staffer I get my terms, make socrates and the trump admin. The real real creep, see the miller: yes, seamen, this speech writer in question, we have been talking about earlier, there was trying to fight off the edit from the white house councils office is trying to decry the speech. I made very hard for stephen miller to balance in a limited word speech cry all the crimes and all the racism, so that I imagine those quite challenging for him yeah I mean I guess he wasn't. He wasn't having a lot of conversations with her from his mom's basement. How did you guys, like gray hair on these simple meter here?

and he is a legendary. I mean I think his life is definitely a full rudy, but that quote specifically, I would say, is a but but a two and a half or three, I may go one and a half its the barely. He was mailing it in there yeah yeah. He could have done where the old didn't really know or the I didn't know the chief of staff assistance is not a credible argument lower. speed her the waiter sienna does work Will this next one is a tweet? I think it's indicative of a lot of responses, kind of like the party line response, much of it all caps I'll, try to shout those parts they give the witch hunt. Mary is a job. liberal media, will do anything to push this. Trumps news pass. but nobody in real a mayor, the camps,

the hearings on inflation, open borders and baby formula. This whole thing is meant to distract from bindings failures. Who said christian cinema, yeah now. That's all right I mean it sounds like you liked many coherent words for chuck Grassley tweet, but it's that kind of vibe, and it sees maybe as an idiot from the house like a Jim Jordan, that a Jim Jordan tweet. It is not it's nothing though, and you guys have penis we should remember this person- oh it's all right for ajax that he can, if, yes, seeking in speaking of people with formerly sterling reputation It really I like the secret service has been really funny. As when eliza said, you have a free So it is your with their john just pipe. Dublin said Margaret yellow green. We were like what.

Around any her job ronnie I mean honestly not very not very creator. From Ronnie. Either though I have, I have come to not expect a lot of interesting creative responses from Ronnie he sort of like a mega bought like you get you just sort of, but you cannot tell the difference between a mega, bought and romney's running comments, and I don't even know if he writes them zones yeah I have a two two two for me. What do you guys? Think of that republican lie and generally have like this is a distraction from the real issues that kind of thing that's their best argument, yeah it it gets harder to make when you're talking about the the their their their front. Runner for twenty twenty four saying that he wanted to go, join a violent mob to attack the capital. It's a harder harder thing too. It's like. Ah, what do we care about more? The fact that the guy who wants to be president in a couple of years led a violent assault on the capital or inflation.

and I think we will in any case about that. If there is not the answer alright well long on a little long, it's a clip again. We can maybe cut it down in person. We want, but I think it's an important part of the response of Cassidy hutchinson so call whenever you're, ready and if you put up the secret service agents who says this girl's lie, I never said that to get twenty years and the secret service has got a ton of integrity, she's, fresh out of college, who do you believe he has a lot to lose by lying? She has everything to gain by lying get her she's a new girl right, she's gonna, get a job offers. Cnn she's gonna be a contributor, she'll, probably get a book deal, and shall we surrounded every party in washington good, a cafe. Milan never have to pay for another drink, some suspicious of her. I will tell you that the the fame. Olano crack really got me. We do. We do have a bipartisan hate.

four cafe mulatto here with with jesse. Why or is in the koran fox as what was her ass. He asked ass. He has, unfortunately, you can't. You can't disguise that voice. You can't discuss it. You know if she has a lot to gain death threats, intimidation, harassed I ain't, never getting a job and republican politics again. You have plenty again. Also. She testified under oath and tone. So far, tonia or nato has testified via anonymous Sources to reporters, so that's all we got gonna. I mean also just the premise that you gain integrity as you age is just really stupid. it's like yeah. Obviously it's more honest he's older yeah right yeah! No, I mean look. I I think it's I I bump it up to the three it so he's he gave it a little more of a college tried in the last two. I think I'm a given a three and have just for that special fox news. Dose of necessity, in the end there and the end also again making

kathy milan, too. That's why I thought a floor after as you too dark. I didn't have a light. I do have to align myself with that great yeah jesse wires. Man TAT. I hear what a douche bag of people who are listening. Who were just like, why do these guys hate a random italian restaurants of such it's? It's it be. Is it's the epitome of everything that's wrong with washington, If you're going to get an email about this, I know it. I know who it's from, but you're, going to get who yeah? Who, who the the the vendors of caffeine, allow norma. We ought to go there when I visit DC, what's going happen and you have the fuck and eat some violence. getting somewhere else? It's no! The foods, not backer someone, someone made the name of anger, I'm really strong arm, giving a handshake to the other very strong arm in its in our jotted down on one jesse waters on the other hating calf able water.

Alright, let's move on nice, one which I think is just really like definitional, sent back you're. So as we discuss part of Cassie Hutchinson, testimony was that one point during the instruction trunk got so upset that he threw his lunch across the room. Leaving cat. Smeared on the white house, cafeteria wall fell into one potential sent here saying the following quote: he threw a plate in the lunch. I dont know how much that matters. He was very upset about the election cause. I don't want to guess who that is I don't know I can't even Just tell us anything and frankly I mean- and you know what brain comin back- it's fuckin one there was that you that you're trying to you trying to focus on the plate, you think that the played against the wall is how you're gonna try to distract from the rest of the bull shit come. I am still

the way to do is to focus on the steering wheel right. That's where did exactly cave and accelerate marginal yeah? That's at least more effective, simply behaviour that don't don't go at the catch up on the wall. No one knew no one thought That was important and it was thought as occasion I was mad. He was met so is now yeah we're youth? You throw fucking catch up with the walter, there recently, a that in there is because tommy detour, you guys know we all know it. He asked me specifically to read this quote from fox news from the obama years quote plain on catch up, didn't cut it for the president. He ordered dijon mustard. I hope you enjoy your fancy burger. Mr president, the who holds the most specific grudges and I really appreciate having lustre gate whiteness a great great moment, american issue, that sort of foretold, everything that was to come. It's very true, it's very true one. that was that was that nine with

yeah we're in the white house, I think was at odein. And he usually but you wanna, guess, get well funded started the peter baker. He started the network o o o is it which network which arise nurse is impractical, o? Is it tucker, johnny ended its yeah. Sorry, I should go. I mean this was when it was just. It was mustard. It was like grey poupon, which was the I why people are so upset about it and has some beautiful poetry there of going from catch to catch Parliament cardamon here procedure. It is that's very nice negligent, we'd better for their courage. It was also very excited to be attacked, Catherine olano, because he he brought up that steve ban and had also recently to map so, that bears the me right. There there's the tommy thirsty banning anti cafe molina get on it

Last one gonna talk you guys up to five instead of three today, this is a series of post on social media quote Kathy Hutchins his body language, is not of a total bullshit artists, fantasy land and other post. There's no cross examination of the so called witness. This is a kangaroo court another person. We read a total funding and other programmes. I never said my pants deserves it parentheses to be home. another made made up statement by a third rate, several clamour who simply guys we we, the the the simpering chief was. Unlike those sound like red check, marked truths, if I ever heard them from Donald J trump himself, I can't believe you didn't. I can't believe you didn't include wacky handwriting. He made fun of her wacky handwriting. He didn't

I didn't quit. I just skipped over that line. Yes, I mean. Obviously Donald trump is known for his penmanship, for anyone who remembers who he, when he defaced the weather map with a sharpie, or has seen that only I beg you actually said that the handwriting of a wacko. I think it was a little by little tougher than that, but all As we know, there is a direct relationship between trust in penmanship, which is why the most trusted profession america's colleague refers. it's so insofar as they like honestly on the same scale, not the greatest ever donald trump, I'm lost his faster. He is lots of theirs by the staff is just not the same untrue. His truth on the same age as tweets, fucking love social. I love everything about one of the biggest could the whole truth, a reach, ruth that each a blue check mark admitted a red check mark it is like the most. I know. Mcdonald

big downgrading in history it so good. It is the big mic of social media sites. I love it. No notes, no notes, andrew social Just just indictment hit me with the media company chief, take officer lodge account. Thank you as always, amy western from hot. Take thanks for joining ever go subscribed to hot, take an endless into some of the best, the best most expert climate analysis. There is every one else have avian plastic fourth holiday and we will close the owl next week by everyone. Hardly save america is a crooked media production. The executive producer is Michael Martinez. Our senior producer is Andy. Gardener Bernstein are, for sir, is hailing use and olivia martinez is our associate producer, its mixed and edited by andrew chadwick kyle segment. Charlotte land is sound engineer. The show thanks to turn you some.

It or sandy gerard halley, keefer, irish warts, anti taft and justine. How from production, support into our digital teen, eliza, cone, Phoebe, bradford, Milo, Kim and Amelia monies are episodes are uploaded. Is videos at you to doubt come such crooked meeting.