We're. Gonna pots, America Ambient favour, John travellers on vacation this week so joining. Is communicate grow in host of the park. Ass words when by not check, Rosaria and not think you're doing this you gonna big, show on today Donald Trump gets a few steps closer to see me inside of a jail cell. The house was to create a select committee to look into the generous ex attack and look at the matter, you're twenty twenty two republican blueprint for taking the house. waiter. I talked to NBC corresponded Jacobs, overwrought about trumps latest visit to the? U S, Mexico border so in the long history of this part. Can we

I'm notorious in sums all circles of people for having huge news break right after the Pike S drops but this morning the new God smile than us earlier. This Alan Weissenburg, the CFO, the Trump Organization and the former presidents closest business adviser, serenity authorities. Later, he is expected to appear in court. Were he and the Trump reservation itself will be charged with tax crimes? our troubles. Unindicted. This move. Will Some additional pressure on by to flip on tromp something the prosecutors been pushing him to do for months in Trump. Visor have long feared, not is your reaction to this fortuitously time in, seemingly goodness, you know Good news is good news and lessen take it and it be happy about it, especially causa going into the weekend today. I think in terms of what that means, among us great, I think in terms of what that means for our public,

spots. I think that as much as we would like to have some well deserved shown right here. It really really important and were probably come back to this a bunch times because of all the new to retain the moral high ground and what that means? this is that, if our public response to this is like manner or south, more sophisticated origin of that, then we are quickly. Gonna fall prey to the republican backlash, which is you see they just keep it. let it get in the last thing they can't get over the last guy there. Just vindictive they just want lie. They don't care about this country, they don't care about, truth, etc, and so what we need to do is we need to frame this as it is, which is a win for truth, a win for integrity or wind for transparency and a wind for a country in which, no matter what you will like. What's in your will,

letter. What position you hold the laws apply equally to all ass. So are you saying that I should cancel the Confetti cannon and tell the crooked medium folks, to put a stop on the refer convict Trump champion- flew to the planning on selling later today, I'm telling you that it depends on your theory of change. Of your theory of change. Is the permanent lucrative sorted honey, come again for a crook, than I definitely see the champagne flutes being a big seller. If your theory of change is that were supposed to equip our choir with the song book that there's posted then repeat to the congregation, then, We have to put a pause. They'll get the seems far now. Donald Trump seems to be on the same pages you because according to political playbook this morning- and I swear- I'm not making this up apparently thinks he's. Criminal charges are a boon for essential twenty twenty four campaign. He report

we told us AIDS, just waned, Why thousand and twenty four you'll see this is gonna, hurt sleepy Joe? The really possible Donald Trump us right here in a rapidly expanding criminal investigation into his associates of businesses could help unreclaimed the White House. Listen motivated cognition is a hell of a drug and I mean by that, is I mean we see throughout all experiments that we do all different kinds of different disciplines: academia, political communication, recent that people have a set of pre existing ideas and they will go out in search of information. That reconfirmed, then. That is a serious and significant issue that we have in communication, and so is the Donnelly Tromp is able to render himself not just a martyr bites would have a hero for that every day

a man who is sticking to the evil, IRS right who is triumphing in the face of the deep state or whatever the bogeyman they decide to label at this time around. Then it is possible that there will be a wee animation of his base, which, basically, as his only inroad, do I think that that's? U no plausible enough to take him over the wine, not really by you know. In Amerika the planet. The implausible seems to be happening on a daily basis. Is here I sort of agree with at least part of trumps logic here which is, I did, and I have to tell you just use the phrase. Trumps logic gingerbread here, that's fair bite, Do you know my invite, like a logic and a broken clock, sort of right twice a day or a situation? I guess, but let me refer, raise that since citizens you're on the bank S day

I agree in a sense with the little analysis of this as related to political playbook, without sort of scrutiny anonymously by trumps AIDS, which is Donald Trump, and the right we have done so much to so just trust in institutions and done such a good job in building this hermetically sealed right wing information bubble that I think it is actually possible for Trump and Republicans to run around flying blue wives matters, flags, Guenaud call themselves, friends of law enforcement, supporters of the police the law and order party attacking Democrats is defending the police, at the same time, viewing av criminal investigation into republican as a product of a ball of liberal elites in deep staters who are trying to take down the bag movement of. I

three. What is a sad fact of wages? Are? I don't think this is going to help him win a general section? Twenty four by on only for american politics and searches. The state of life american democracy. It's not gonna hurt him. Is he showed right in the old days? This will be the yet you know you're you're it in. Matched in illegal morass, estimations left and right. That would be the end of your political career in here You probably help you in a republican primary and it's not gonna hurt you in the way in which you would think in its so that is as it is. They did. This enjoyable. We want we'll keep are schadenfreude inside it. at the risk of helping Donald Trump in this situation, but I think the politics of are not what we would hope for either progressive there. democracy generally yeah. That's angry! moving on from crimes trouble may have committed before you as president to crime he committed while he was president after centre, Republicans blocked a viper,

An independent investigation into their own attempted murder, the House of Representatives voted yesterday to create a select committee to investigate the causes of the January six assault on the. U S: Kapital Representatives Adam Kins, eager enlist Cheney, we're the only Republicans joint Democrats in voting. Guess, kinda guy had this to say it's not my favorite option, but the point is we can't keep. Teddy, like January six didn't have, we need full accounted for, and then we can move on. I not this. End of reasons. Research committee are, I think, beyond question, because the pie Yes, we talk about politics, so I feel compelled to ask you: is this a good political move for Democrats? It's the only. And the reason why it is the only move, if you allow me to go deep for a moment, there go deep, and I really just wanna, get credit, are mutual friend might pod hoarser for a lot of this thinking and a lot of this framing so shout out there is that it

It is a massive mistake to position and any other kids a girl. At the end of that little clip, though we can move on like that problematic that last part of the sentence it's an acid mistake to what this fly in any way, shape or form and it's a mistake that this country has made over and over and over again what we need to recognise. So that the people who attacked our country, the people who attacked our capital, that people who attacked our way of life and way of governance. They belong to a fashion. We can college and transactions. We can call it a confederate faction, its action and as James Madison defined it a faction is a small. Of people, a minority that is intent.

who are united and actuated by some common impulse of passion or of interest at first to the rights of other citizens or to the permanent. An aggregate interests of the community This is what Madison was writing about in the federalist papers that he feared and we have had this faction as a facet of our history from the founding of this country? This is a faction dad horse refuse to join the United States until they were assured that they could enslave other human beings. This was a faction that null I lost they rejected. This is the faction that more recently refused to grant the present, the Brok Obama, was actually a United States citizen American born this a ecosystem idea that has been part and parcel of this country since its founding and at every turn? We have not vanquished it at every turn. We have not identified it.

We do not understand that. Today's big, why the big lie? That's the will of the people should be vacated because, of course, we have the temerity to let black and brown and young and new Americans foe is simple, the latest iteration of the overarching big the overarching big lie that we are, in fact not created equal the ocean. Archie big lie there. There are people, African Americans, indigenous people, new immigrants who will never be in some people's eyes, full and true citizens, and so I think it is incredibly important to position this one six, twenty one in that negation. Its attack on our country, ass, a rooting out of a supremely undemocratic, unequal, unjust force that We need to get to the bottom of into understand that this faction, it's not a political party,

It's taken up hosting a GEO p right, it's a Paris, I honour nation, but operates. beyond the jobs it up. Reach is a media syndicate as you better than anyone Right Fox nuisance. They max own. It operates through talk, radio. It operates through state legislatures in operates through social media. It operates through personal literary, like proud ways. This is a fact that every single american of good conscience needs to care about needs to get to them. I'm off, and it is something that we simply cannot continue to live with ass, a nation. If we are going to be united and make real the promise of liberal, and justice for all, and so once recognised that this faction is through its appearance, on our nation and if you allow the next metaphor. It's either a boiled.

We will last for its a cancer that will continue to spread mix. Metaphors are always a lot on the spot. Guess I am a frequent violator of stag grammatical Obviously, I think Democrats had to do this. You can, I, have in assaulting ahead states capital for the purpose of overturning an election, dad was violent and half filled its white supremacist ideology, people flying the confederate like inside the United States, cabin a hundred years of civil war. You get not investigate where that is not an option, would is hard about this is a guy gets to the structural challenges, challenges of politics in this polarized age with it well system, which very alarmingly disproportionately, political power to the faction to which you are referring right. This is how we got Donald Trump as President and of what you have to investigate it, you have to have a historical public accounting of what will happen.

My fear with all of this is the net, and this is not a critique of war, Nancy plus he's doing. This is her up here is the only one available to her. But the January. Six assault is only the end result of a whole of other things that happen during the Trump error that happen in our politics. That have to be dressed, investigated, addressed and explored and like at all like. I don't think this is going to Democrats when the next election or three, this great silver border anyway catechism you have to do. That is the important right thing to do, and but it I think it if the only narrow thing is, is that we're going out with this report is going to come out five months before the election? gonna demonstrate beyond a shadow of a doubt that Donald Trump did X Y, see if he fomented theirs- and these are. These members of Congress took people on tours that, like that's a net like em,

micro level, accounting counting when we really need, is what you're talking about a macro level, accounting of how this faction gained so much power in society when the ethic naive hope is that they would be in you know sort of fading into the sunset, as opposed to rising in this moment in time. If that makes sense, it does. I think I'm gonna take a one or two issues. One thing that you said then I'm gonna offer students. I agree with you that I don't think this is like the campaign slogan for many twenty two. I don't think this is like the banner thing. I ain't campaigns Logan and the banner thing for twenty twenty two which may or may not get you is about what Democrats are delivering and about making people's lives better, and that is not this. I think that the issue with knowing anything polarization, polarization at mean little bit like the fact that one learned about the civil war, rightly

and about it ass, a war between north and south, which it very much wasn't. It was a war between, in a The dishes faction and the Euro, It states who want to civil war, not the north, the United States, one is of war right and so why happens when we say polarization is the same as when we learned that you know the north battled the south and asked the best of it right. That's if you learn that version of its southern borders the war of northern aggression, if we talk about coordination. That is in fact, in a both sides argument. It is somehow this idea that, like there is some screwed up thing on both ends when, in fact, going on is there is a, minority. a small and pull and powerful group of people who are determined to silence black brown

indigenous young New Americans, so that they can rule for the wealthiest view that actually, going on and when we deem it problem polarization, which I am not arguing, you're doing you through that off. Not as a talking point, then we are falling prey to see narrative that this is somehow sort of both sides kind of language. It just isn't that is it as a very boring I guess I should have used my asymmetric polarization explained her with that would like what I You are you're one. I wasn't right. This is not about sites problem. This is a one sides problem and that that one side is in a a war of aggression, partisan and sometimes violent aggression against the United States as it stands, the idea the democracy, the laws all of the above that the it that's the point I think of

This is of the polarization of my mention it might by mistake, If you are measure polarization is there have to recognise the the persuasive, though the limits of truly factual persuasion on some elements of that minority yeah completely, and that's why I'm gonna go out a Huron, like I mean, probably already him out on a limb right. I took you out on a limb, overtaking farther, I think fit the fixation? The understandable fixation that we keep having with you know only acts number of Republicans voted for acts for this. This idea, or this We Republicans are doing. This are only Cheney, or you know this constant reaffirmation of partisanship constant reaffirmation that this is sort of a democrat republican thing. I think that's a mistake.

And as much as I am sure, have a tried and true Democrat, because, like it's the best that guy imperfections in all, I think that us continuing to fix it or not, is really a big problem, and I think that when Nancy Close he is talking about, for example, who is a poor serving on his pity? I think that it is a matter of these are the patriots were ready, willing and able to get to the bottom? To get to the truth, we offered

representatives of this country, the opportunity to demonstrate their patriotism to demonstrate their commitment to truth, to demonstrate their belief that all of us are created equal and that we believe in a peaceful, orderly, transfer power, and these are the folks who took us up on it, and these are the folks who refuse you know I've your Devereux, your address and write about the sort of the day in our public language that we use. We too often a gothic computer. You are correct validate the both sides. Narrative I talking in the context of Democrats and Republicans in Denmark, will probably this later the bug ass. My thing, a big challenge for democracy is that we have to political parties in one of them has been taken over by this factions. This very dangerous action to which you refer you refer previously, but I don't think that narrative is as well known in as well understood by voters

a lot of the media who cover that. Would these two political parties for a living and lino stakeholders throughout the political process, and so Is this challenges like? How do you shake people to recognise that there is one path to saving Of course, he has to preventing more things like ones like the generally six assault from happening there's one party who is trying to expand and create in with us the ideals of a multiracial democracy, one that is trying to gradually hold onto the birthright political. These seen his birthright political power of a white christian minority in that is Democrat, begins in when, because it was a point they're going to walk into a voting both or they're gonna get a ballot. I feel lucky enough to live in a state where this is still allowed. Meals in your home, where they will have to choose among those too, and they may get a presidential election. You know that's Trump invited irrational action. It is for a while voters. Anonymous

person within our by their name and address person by D by their name, and how do we in question is it the answers. This is like a much longer conversation, Is how do we make sure that people associate the right characteristics with that d and that our, since they will not know almost anything about the two individual people who they are voting for you? I completely hear you and that is an absolute reality, and we need to think about that for twenty twenty two. I am thinking about that. Your thing about lots of a servant. That is the first point. You made you no good thing. They, you and cooking, you're. More broadly has a gazillion listeners because we actually do need to make this radical shift and understanding We need to make a radical shift in understanding away from this idea that were true. In this sort of worse than ever polarization as if it were, just a matter of you know both sides its being sort of equally obstreperous and in fact, what's happened.

Winning is that we are in a battle of aid faction. That is omnipresent. It has existed, as I said, since our founding it has taken different forms. Let's be honest right, has had different host it used to live inside the democratic party. This is why we had a reversal of parties. It was at one point called the Democratic Republican Party at lived inside. The quorum pull Dixie crowds, it has argued in, has taken up different hosts it. Currently, as we said, operates through the Republican Party, but it is not the republican Party. It is a faction that it is fundamentally at odds with America, and so the battle But we need to understand that we need people to understand that we are locked into, is a battle of good hearted, good natured people who have all

so always existed since our countries founding indifferent amounts, indifferent numbers and different levels of power and awareness who believe, as you said, and multi racial democracy who believe in reconstruction, who believed in civil rights who believed in Brown be roundly board and who, in this most recent election, turned out in red We're numbers, despite a pandemic and every barrier thrown at them, to keep them to silence their voices and he'd been promoting, and so that is also America. That is also asked, and I think that, when obviously there's a million different interpretations, but one interpretation of what happened at twenty twenty is that people turned out and record numbers because they got it right. They got that there was this

Surprisingly, I mean problematic, is not a strong enough work, but there was this extremely: let's, let's call it demonic force that was just in case waited an embodied in the figure of tromp, but obviously is bigger than tromp precedes Trump, wouldn't have we wouldn't have had a trump? Were this not sort of bigger parents and reality of who we are as a nation, and you are strain. Everything, that's happened over time, and so, if people understand that it really go beyond the and it really does go beyond Ain T read, and nineteen blue, which is a big part of what animates political participation we know right its tribalism and not a big problem that we ve got if people cannot

See you twenty twenty two that we're at that same crossroads. We have not left that crossroads right. Then we are not going to be able to enemy. Enough people to both turn out as a base and to flip against them. Team, Red Party identity. I will dwell tee to see that we have to say, and united as Americans for the values that we at least pretend to espouse. If I M correctly interpreted what I think you're saying it is the way to think about how to talk about. this dangerous trend. This faction, whatever you want to call it in american life, is to try to Iceland and by using the term democratic Republican, we risk I being essentially in the sort of republican mindset fifty percent of America, which then get which then imbue initial get our next topic in a second abuse it with strength and social proof.

And if you were the better way to do, it is to consistently describe it as a minority. As a word, faction works for that too, and in doing that- which, I think you know is mathematically statistically correct, also, so, what's it in a way right makes it seem less than you and maybe even has the potential to separated if our first primary identity, which a lot of social science research, is our partners and identity, the train, a policy of use or anything else by sea? that it is not republican. You release giving yourself a fighting chance with some collection of people who currently self enough Irish Republican for rejecting that is that correct, ass, correct Ian, in addition, that absolutely correct, in addition to that It removes us from the trap of what one of the many things people abhor about politics, or at least professed, poor, which he is

That's all just partisan bickering, that's all just in fighting Republican, say, crappy things about Democrats, democratic, crappy, things about republican That's just how this is, which is, as we see in public opinion, a lot of what people think. That's back to that, like it's all, just poor relation, and this is one of the way the game is played, and this is why, for what I hate politics, I can't stand it. I don't want to think about it or talked about it, which is a view that many short of Americans not witness your part but ass. I would imagine, but lots of Americans were like us. Politics grows I want to care debate, we have to get away from bad, because, even though that is in fact not true- and that is not in fact for the way that things are operating when we also put things in partisan turns rather than being Americans united against this faction-

that is just sort of supremely against every one of our ideals in yes, in political terms, we have to defend by turning out and voting against the people with the are against their next to their name. We have to change this understanding, the positive work as broadly, credit karma, who doesn't one instant gratification? No one if you're looking for satisfaction, there's no need to wait with credit karma money. You could win cash reimbursements for debit purchases. Credit karma money is a brand new checking account where you can win cash reimbursements for making purchases, which is what I just said. When you use your credit card, my money, debit card you can win daily two karma purchase, reimbursements on items up to five thousand dollars, just pay with your debit card, and if you win, you'll be notified on the spot near instant karmic cash will be added back to your spent,

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not receding, as even its trump has receded somewhat to be the background of at least the daily focal conversation. What's your level of concern that this vote on the stolen election and these big things you they really important. Could it why endeavour Democrats, making same mistake again about inadvertently helping Trump by talking about the thing that his voters most like well the editors work for you, I'm gonna pick on your language again, Dan. Take this out. I wouldn't her ever used the phrase stolen election. That's their phrase, not arts, they're gonna, throw stolen election. So that's not a thing. I would call that the big lie, but going back from ITALY your actual question, I still hold the same concern. I still hold the same idea that any obviously what your quote

and what your citing is absolutely correct. There is a growing sort of hunger, not just in the United States but disturbingly you know. We ve seen us over time. We see it with contempt there we see with also not all we see our bomb wisdom, Poland, with the heir to a certain extent, with breaks it worse. Johnson. Is it like it's? It's not a? U S only thing, it's it's a global thing. I'm sorry! in terms of public messaging, not in terms of like academic descriptors of what is happening in the world, but in terms of strategic communications label what the right wing is doing, as authoritarianism still dies, have that same problem of the sea system and what I mean by that is that what we, often see in the resource that we do is broadly speaking our opposition, is not the opposition. It cynicism, it's not that people dont, the guy gives a right it's if they dont the greatest are possible. So why bother? And if it is,

Did the case that there is this, you know giant overwhelming authoritarian force, that's just gonna come. Ponderous from me of our high potential donors, which is my turn for what are traditionally called low, propensity voters. We don't call them that for high potential voters that who why bother instinct is very strong right, because we need to remember that in every single action there. Actually three candidates. There is ours. There's there is understandable and stay at home. The literal hunt team advantage because the persons at so when Thinking about, how we mobilise people for something? How do we get people to believe that this is worth in some of these states intentionally? standing in epic, an endless lines and having to endure a walk.

Only in any measure of indignities and horrors that people are being intensely subjected to buy these rightwing by by these rating lawmakers were intent to want to silence people's voices I have to feel like it's a fight, that's worth participating in, which means it has to feel like it's a fight that he is winnable. Most people do not want to sign up for a lost cause. So that is why we want to position. Then yes, is powerful. Ass is damaging. Gas is destructive, yes, the furious, but not as authoritarian? And I also is the reasoning behind this. fashion idea and language that they were Potan lying horrible group of people that have a hold on many many things, not least of which is, is them

yeah right, especially their own media channels, but that this is something that we have vanquished before and it something that we can vanquish again. One of the thing, I don't know how many friends you have you know that regularly follow your colleagues, I'm sure outside of the country, but one of the things that was most hurrying to me personally, after the twenty twenty. Action was my friends in Australia where I have lived at work and my friends in the UK. We have also done some work saying to me. Well, holy Shit Ya'Ll dealt a blow not a fatal blow Not enough! Don't mistake me, but you'll doubt upload to fascism at the ballot box that never happened right. The old We check that, have had in history on fascist forces has been through military action and their view.

My friends, views from abroad of our election was like a shot in the arm, at least for me to be like yeah. We did do that. We did do that and we can do it again. When I think about how to talk about these things, right and whether you want to use the phrase stolen election out there to anything but a stone election. What is the idea is, the very specific idea did Trump ever was trouble. Ever actually in danger of remaining as president, because, despite losing the popular vote electoral college, not that was never really in play, but came with end, whatever it was, tens of thousands of votes in four states of the press. The person picked by an overwhelming majority of Americans not becoming present, which is that is an alarming factor of our system that is getting worse every day and something that we need to talk about an address, but when I think like this is going to be the conversation for the next year, whether as the commission, investigation, whether it's the attempts to pass.

For the people. Act in the Senate of the Supreme Court today further weakening the last remaining shred of other rights ACT like this. This is this is the thing this is the literally the elephant in the room that we are dealing with. So the question is: how do you talk about it? One of the ways I think, democratic to do as they need to ascribe these efforts to- and I say, Democrats, which I know you're about to correctly all, but I say Democrats because but you have democratic politicians that I want to say the right thing, but it Eddie, but also any American in their watercolor conversations or Facebook posts there now in things by an impersonal, Valerie ends by is subscribe. Did the things that happening in Georgia a Texas Arizona elsewhere, the big lie is something that arises from weakness. Not strength yet right, it is because they do not have the ability to,

win fair and square to appeal, to have ideas that appeal to majority Americans, they have to resort to these extreme measures at the part that I think it's really hard is why I'll be on like yours ones, people who, in the run up to the election and the period afterwards before the jewellery sixth assault, was too Did you call people and say Donald Trump, not going to see a sector? That is not enough. That is not something that happened. These sort of state led slayers and certification issues all ran into huge problems that you or you know this one was a famous one Jobs can accuse the election that, like thirteen seconds of good we will show you that that is not an actual thing that can happen, but I do think the threat of an actual subversion of the election results are is much greater in twenty four for public mistake. The house you have the floor, Lots of things are happening in Georgia in Arizona elsewhere, with being abandoned.

Russia, but also those things but is the challenge of How do you raise concern about it? I am deeply concerned that, as of this moment at least no one, with the power to do anything, seems to be doing anything in terms of federal legislation even we're together for the people act as currently written Disease to the author certification problem. Without doing Zaki, what you say, which is make people think their voters account that it does not matter because the matter what you do Republicans, which are still the election- and that is fine line we dealt with it. Years ago, when I worked for present Obama. Twelve, like how did you know this? How do you in talk about voter Idee laws and lions knowledge that without convincing people to not vote, and they have a really hard in trick balance to try to strike over the next eighteen months or so here. So The answer to that is, we ve been looking for a very long time,

doing in some cases daily research, weekly research feeling all sorts of different instruments beginning in October and continuing now we know through interaction post election up until today, and basically, what I would say is that the entire obsolete in value or phrase that keeps popping and rising to the top is freedom, and what I mean by that is that we need to talk about them this ass an attend to take away your freedom about an attorney to take the freedoms? Americans of every race place, while its eyes walk of life hold dear and cherish and so a message today that rights that needle that you're talking about, which I think is exactly the needle agree with you entirely- is that

in Amerika we value freedom and right now, a handful farmers want to take away our freedom to vote. so that they can rule only for the wealthiest view and there Whatever the ask is right, if the asking- and I take your point about the for the people act being an insufficient rejoinder to the certification problem. So I'm not pretending like it's. The big ol boy, to make the ask framed ass, a protection of preservation and all the continuation of our freedoms, because what we find is that only try to talk to people in Turkey democracy and saving our democracy or having a democracy or protecting actually whatever. Of all. We run into the challenge of the fact that never had a democracy and is very it's very difficult issue.

make a language formulation. We can't it's a little bit orchard. That says you know it created a mark receive or make the promise of democracy real. That doesnt fall into that trap of implying that we ve had when we have it. And secondarily what we find is that democracy is an abstraction, Democracy never bought you dinner, p, do not sort of having tangible feeling about it, and so what we ve seen does that we need to make arguments around these anti voter laws, arguments around these anti election and many laws that republican state legislatures in passing, in places like Arizona, George, etc we need to frame them ass, then trying to take away your freedom, then. silence, certain voices them trying to work for the already rich, and- and this is why- and I I grant that this is a lie, but we can't let. Voting conversation and issue were also seeing this wandered.

away and be in its own space for countless wander away from what those boats deliver. So what I mean by that is. You know in Amerika we value freedom, the freedom to raise our voices and to cast our votes so that we can elect leaders who deliver on our priorities for creating jobs too, ending healthcare to ensuring rights for all. But today, a handful of lawmakers want to take away those freedoms, so they can rule for the only for the already wealthy and powerful few by coming together to path for will be. Lagged or by coming together the record numbers of whatever the ask is we can ensure that this is a place of freedom for the leaders that we elect governing our name and act in our interests. We have two still keep in that peace, That is about essentially good governance, that this is about the delivery of things that we want weather

happy stimulus tracks, whether that be should have the ability to vote freely and fairly, whether that be affordable, health care, etc. I want to put a spot little somebody to such as it is the actual most important thing that anyone who resources bikers who works in politics or a talks about thousands of people, their lives, as you have to Wayne who benefits from these laws. These things in a can't just be politicians. Could people naturally assumed politicians will do things to keep themselves in power, and so that, like that, is price into the baseline of people, of an inherent centuries, long cynicism, working politics, but you have to tie it to in this exactly right: corporations the wealthy, benefiting right legality some important, which is imperfect, transition to our next topic earlier this? Actually, I was laid out the GNP suppose a blueprint for twenty two. According to the report, publicans plan to wear.

Back the house by pushing the narrative tat quote by them. rats or soft on crime, soft and ineffective and illegal immigration and reckless in wrong about government spending, This will bring are to be put to use Trump in Texas, Governor Gregg Abbot, visit the border yesterday to stoke fears and spread a bunch of racist, inflammatory bullshit. And what do you think of this strategy? Is it surprising, doesn't give you concerns I don't remember who said this so I feel badly not able to credit, but you know you'll never go bankrupt, betting on racism. as a strategy from the right wing? So It's a me. It surprises me precisely: zero percent, more the reasons that I raised earlier date one strategy, they have always had one strategy. It was sort of raised and articulated in Nixon's quorum, quote southern strategy, which is an whatever its heels, stricken about great Machiavelli wrote about it. It's called divide and conquer

any time you want to try to win from a minority position, meaning opposition that minority of people actually is thousand hold. You have to create a scapegoat. You have to create some sort of other of them, because there is no quick, to the construction of an US, then the manufacture of them. So if the answer is that you know democratic or aiding and abetting enabling quotable intercity crime, which of course, just black is closer black people, or you know helping new immigrants, which of course is just cover brown people when people's angel immigrants, I dont think they're envisioning swedish, back packers who oversee the visa right and even though immigrant is a dark. We saw even though inner city crime is a dog with, or even the wanderers adopt was right. It isn't name race. It does not say that of a its racially coded. This is work that force had a Mickey and he knew low pay.

have spelled out over and over and over again and its part and parcel of the research that we conducted in twenty seventeen and have kept doing and applying through twenty twenty, just something we call them class narrative. Do I think that it is a winning strategy? I think that's what you ask me right. I went a little soap box, that is. That is what I asked. Yes, that's it's good. One of us knows to be fair? I don't get my sheet and overshadowed sure, but yes, so I think it's a winning strategy. I think it is learning strategy in certain places, and I think it is a winning strategy. If Democrats, I'm just going to go ahead and say it walk up and don't recognize, raised neutral is not a thing. Race neutral does not exist when we fighting in an arena? You know, as I frequently like to say, politics is not Soulier, and so we,

to recognise or messages are not heard in a vacuum. Sometimes it just makes me laugh when people wall on the phone. would be or whatever they'll be like. Why don't Democrats day this? Why don't you I'd say that, and I just really want to stare at them, and they do you actually think people's opinions about Democratic formulated out of White Democrat say? Is that we really were you think that idea comes from we'll be nice down. Wouldn't it be great if the public's formulation of Democrats or unbelieving stand for actually emerged out of what democratic our lives, We saw much better. We would like to be set up in my time somewhere. I would be it would be so happy if people we were just a robber p. Well actually heard the things Democrats out, because we weren't being drowned out by array

wig media machine and Facebook etc like that would be a huge victory. We just get to that starting point. It would be good if they heard it. If that was the basis upon which they made their judgment, about Democrats are and what they stand for doubt be beautiful, but it is not. And so we need to recognise that in every one of these races, regardless of who the person running, is there going to be locked with charges of socialism they're going to be locked with charges of wanting to defend the police there going to be locked with charges?

you know why not being for line order and for handing out free money, and you know I don't even know why- to current quoth illegals, ass, the right and will say, and so if we don't have a rejoinder too, that if we don't have a way of talking principally about race, then what happens is that the only messaging that voters that could go either way going to hear is wasted from the right: it's not like the conversation about races, just gonna go away because we don't get to pick that because we don't get to decide the entirety of the conversation, and so it is incumbent upon us and it is incumbent upon our candidates to be able to do what you just said, which I call ascribed motivation to to to people, not just what the other side of saying, and certainly never to repeat what the underside of saying in an of fruitless effort to debunk it. That does not work,

but rather to highlight the fact that they are, for example, changing and blaming people of car or trying to divide us by recent I place HOPI will look. The other way is hoping to distract us from their failures to contain and deal with this pandemic, which Democrats came in and did Hope he will look the other way and not notice that they voted against the rescue plan. I understand was checks that we needed to get care to pay off bills, to be able to buy our kid and ice cream corner, whatever folks did without stimulus check. We need to come over and over and over again back to that motivation for motivation. For why it is that they're doing and saying what they're doing now away from it. So, as Republicans are trying to scare voters into voting for them democratic, a different approach celebrating the the Bite administration, bringing the country alibi, endemic, restoring the economy on Tuesday, the Dnc put out a new television,

Let's take a lesson, viruses life has been no one across Amerika, truly an unprecedented situation July? Fourth, The american holiday a celebration of freedom, and this year there is more to celebrate the freedom to hug grandchild to see a baseball game in person to come back together again, America leading the world out of a global pandemic with honesty and compassion. America's journey containing through fire was encouraged to build a better future, a future that only we, the people can make together America we're coming in. Mission to that at the Dnc has

Ask him trucks touring the EAST coast bearing the message shots in arms checks in banks, jobs coming back in scoops in hand, I'm assuming the scoop hardest. Civic just inside can track and will not be and adds in the following way too Not you think Democrats can really Rhine odd economic and pandemic progress on republic. No throwing all this other bullshit against the wall. I think that it is a question of both hands right, so it's both about lifting up the achievements and accomplishments, and it's about that middle bit and I see the middle because, as we discuss before order matters, it actually now It was the ordering which you construct your message and the exact same message: the same three sentences when we test it,

in one water and when we tested in another, it has a really really different effect in terms of whether or not its persuasive. So it's about first setting the positive contacts that yes, we can guess we did. You know this is all that the staff that we're delivering stop that we're getting dine. This is the beautiful tomorrow, etc, and then in the middle there, the essentials of ships and what your problem sandwich its calling now. What the other side is saying and ascribing motivations. So, for example, you know no matter what we look for where we come from in America, we value are freedom or whatever or brown from a city or small town, north or south. Most of us believe that people who work for living on earn a living. And today Democrats have delivered relief checks. They delivered vaccines. They delivered a bow tomorrow, alongside the vote

They turned out in record numbers the thing it's really using Bernard out, I would say, is that. We also need to remember that we are start how we want to finish that's true, both in parenting and in politics, and so, if you eventually wants, and even that out as far away from twenty twenty two to be fair when we are doing adds that are intended to inspire people to vote. We need to remind them that they were voters and the need to talk about voting a lot of water, which is an affair condemnation of that, because that's not its job by We want to make sure that we imbue the listener with agency that we make it not just the Democrats delivered this but vote turning out and record numbers to a laugh leaders did this. It was we, the people who did this in order to make people feel. Like those agents who will do it again and twenty twenty two. She do that if it and then you say, but today you know this

person that I'm running against animal said guy stature on my side that, if you're running a little guy person this person, I'm running again today, is throwing out. Eyes, just as he did about our election, hoping to divide us hoping to scare us are hoping detract from the fact that he wants to take away your freedoms, didn't I in your stimulus check and refused with this pandemic. Like the rest of his party, I did I, I think it is only right that this add his knife. Is this now curved GEO, TV, add or your tweets. You addresses in at about this, it's a different sort of advertising strategy that democratic the DMZ and a lot of the super backs are doing this year, which I very much support, which is Worrying is basically taking

diminishing that a pic democratic parties, dependence on the mainstream media to get our message to the voters need to see it or sir it's bits. Basically, I've always leaves that, particularly in recent years, Democrats of a huge last mile problem were the because, the constrained reach of an answer things about topical biases and mainstream media. The things we want them to know where the things they are less likely to see. If we depend on the New York Times, I'll, do is etc, to show it to em, so you gotta gonna, throw money at it and so people know that July. Fourth is going to be a different sort of thing, and it's because of these things that Joe Biden Democrats Daedric, then this is one way to do that. I think you're, a hundred percent right, that a huge part of this as you get closer election is pushing agency down to the individual level. You did this in Europe, possible for making sure it doesn't get undone or overturned or whatever isn't that you know that is your core part.

Obama's message. It was Bernie Sanders. Not not me us all like that. That need to be a part of it, I don't think this is a real. This is sort of oppressed him act by the they d and sees us are gonna have planes flying banners across beaches in battleground states? That say that say! Thank you drink. said Joe Biden and Democrats servants really like? Thank you. Thank you vote or thank you, the majority of Americans who came together in a pandemic and stepped up to you to defeat what was before us whatever. That is the thing that I am What a rustle with here is doing popular things successfully but once in delivering is like table snakes, it's not enough right and I think what how a big challenge for Democrats figure out is: how do we avoided complacency? How do we keep people who

voted for job. I never Donald Trump, but tell focus groups and pulls now that. a very open provided voting. Far generic Republican Virginia Democrat. How do we sell people? How do we convince people that what motivated them to step up in twenty. Twenty is still here right now that you know the Fraser you I've used recently is the iris contained briefly, but not out, and so what you cannot step back. You cannot default to what you used to do either did how used about her. I used to know That is why the gods, like this big challenges, I dont, think simply gratitude is now coming enough to overcome the structural impediments for Democrats. In this mid term, its we're gonna hafta. Really figure out how to we play on other emotions to get that yeah, and I think that that both brings us back to the earth Your conversation around this notion of a faction

Is still very much alive and presents and has taken a post in the GNP, at least in large measure, and exists well well well beyond the GNP as it has for ever and ever and that that is the sort of still the clear and present danger and steal the thing that we need to vanquish and get rid of that. they think it first of all doing that, and then I think the other piece of it in you know it's funny. If I would story boarding out right now, especially because, what's top of mine for me, I think, understandably, you as well, I guess, is Mobilizing people is mobilizing our base. To actually be yes, bloody murder at all of these,

type voter decisions that are coming out of these states and now, most recently today out of the Supreme Court and the fact that people are not as hot and bothered right that we don't have the number. People that we had sharing messages, sharing outrage, sharing action around town, every vote we had immediately after the election and then vote decided, voters decided right. That was like or narrative moving was due tv messaging. We count every vote and then his voters decided in that was all very, very deliberate. The fact that we now have more people been arms, screaming bloody murder about what's happening in and shore of recognising the danger, danger, danger, danger and a force. You don't or literature like what are you gonna, do not always are up in arms, and I didn't tell me you I mean your cousins and your facebook brands and people who went on.

The width and so on and so forth in. The fact that this is not like outrage every day, every headline every moment tat is really released. To me, and I think that the way that we pull on those two hearts- rings is to say, for example, and unjust begging, southern spot, but the freedom you feel the play people with your friends hang out on the porch and have beers, hope your grand child. You know tat your stimulus check pay off. Build a freedom. You feel the slaughter Lie fireworks the hanging out on the beach that freedom, you feel the say what you Why express your voice cast your vow pick the leaders who will represent you and deliver that freedom. You feel that what they want to take away from you so it's both alike joy, accomplice, men and achievement and yeah it's the loss. Aversion

we're not per usual when you and I have to get together, We have solved all the parties problems. We all the messages with anyone needs tweet. It was in the bag. Thank you it's for joining us it has been found is always thank. You much positive brought you Brooklyn and some officially here and why is it good to leave the house but I saw them of it. Yeah? I know I mean you made it sound like it's really good to leave the house, and it is, but just as great as it is to leave it's fun to remember what coming home is like. So why not come home for a true sanctuary with all the comforts that come with it and that is where Brooklyn it comes in giving the giver sad that you'll never get to run into a cathedral. Yelling sanctuary, sanctuary help me? I need sanctuary yeah yeah. I'm pretty sight would like

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human traffickers join me now to help us make sense of it all and discuss the bite administration efforts to unwind trumps immigration legacy is embassy and MSNBC corresponded an author. Separated inside an american tragedy. Jacob several Jacob welcome to thought. Dan. Thanks for having me long time fan of the what's good. To have you here, we ve been trying to get this done for a long time, so excited about it. Let started trumpet abbots visit to the border yesterday from settle, two things what he was there it's worried that his account and habits account. Somehow the port went from one of the most secure places in the world to centre of disturbing else gave just in these six months abide administration help us separate fact from fiction about. What is really going on the border right now? Well, what I can tell you what's not going on at the border, because I can tell you would have seen based in my own experience and when you talk about a disturbing in Hell, Scape thing becomes

the mind for me is what I saw with my own eyes: the separation of fifty five hundred children deliberately by Donald Trump and his administration as a matter of deterrent. in order to scare people away from coming to this country. Physicians for human rights called it torture. They want to well peace prize. The American Academy, Pediatrics called Government sanction child abuse, and that is a part, see that was uniquely trompe and it had never been done before has not been done since in that really I think is what Donald Trump Stephen Miller and their allies Mark Morgan Chat, Wolf World down there with him this week want to return to if not explicitly family separations, and I read about in the book that you did want to return to family separations after they put their policy into place and then had to pull because of the outrage other active policies that hurt people in order to prevent them from coming, the United States and the bottom line is whatever

if they want to do no matter how hard they want to damage people, it never works. It didn't work during the quantum Emmy deterrents has been the policy de facto of the. U S government. For decades didn't work, during the Clinton administration in work under the Bush administration didn't work and in the Obama, administration and Donald Trump did the most heinous thing to migrants crossing the southwest border in the history of the United States and ripping them apart deliberately children and parents, and still people are coming in so what happened to have? Basically, it was like a greatest hits mentally for them a wish list. A return to you know Basically what the binding ministration has tried to move away from me. it was this very surreal of that, because, as you point out, there were Chad, Wolf, more Morgan these former members of government doing in what was a sort of an official government.

with an actual sitting governor was is unusual virus. Anything like that before no and I was an advance guy before I was a journalist as an advanced gotta, my Bloomberg. When I was in college- and those I mean it was very clear just looking at the images even down to the name placards that were on the desk. They wanted this to look like a residential a visit. It was kind of sad honestly, in my opinion, if you ask me, like they were longing for a time when they, were the ones and they were the ones only who could have that cruel posture towards me prince- and they almost were pretending that it was. It was still there turn their responsible the university governor Abbot, it's the sitting governor and he's tried to complete this border wall, which Republicans aunt, em grass along the settlers border, will tell you is not necessary to control migration into the United States. It is bizarre I mean I don't know. What did you think we decide to me? It just struck me as former politics including Chad, Wolf? Who in the book you'll see that varies?

So it was one of the first people to propose the separation policy to the truck administration in those like they were getting the ban back together. They were set that they were unable to do all these things that they had done before. It was like Europe, if somebody cosplay in a word there I mean I sort of it was harder my mind to separate those images from the reports that govern a prison. South Dakota, a very public in presidential aspirin and twenty four I see you have trumped- doesn't run. I assume said the South Dakota National Guard down to the border, but it was paid for by I a rich republican donor and it's like me, some private armies and former presidents predates it. Is this very strange alternative reality where Republicans have sort of crew. That'd aren't very incredibly serious issues with it. creating an alternative version of what's happening and then got about, to solve that problem and sort of very real and dangerous ways. You know

Biden made prison abiden made on doing a lot of trumps, Paul immigration policies and border policy, specifically a big part of his campaign? gender based on your reporting. Where has he succeeded in what more worked as he need to do to meet those promises? Well, look. The truth of the matter is I think that they have a really long way to go, but they ve come in according to advocates with the right messaging, the right rhetoric, its lofty, they say they want to create a fair, safe, humane, orderly immigration system, and they really do want a departure from these decades of did a deterrent based approach, the approach that says, if we scare people, if we tell them, don't come in every president- has done that in the modern history, the United States that they want- and we know that that is so I think, with a binary. Ministration is trying to do in and for sure the Obama administration, as you know, attempted to tackle the root causes of migration. President Biden himself as VP

sort of spearheaded that effort and I think that a trying to sort of super charge that take that an and make that the guiding force for the minimum straightened the by Maris Administration, but it's not easy easy, because these facilities that Donald Trump was able to put children in along the border were there before the Mcgowan border patrol processing station was stood, where the cages we're during the Obama administration thee ice family detention centres were opened during Bananas. Remember are institutional, systemic issues that you cannot undue like this and, in fact, the only reason our troubles able to separate showed him so he's leaders, because the apparatus, the infrastructure of punishment in our immigration system existed in that way for a long time, endorsed by Republicans and Democrat, so

if the binding ministration is successful in undoing. All of that, I think, will be a significant departure. They ve already tried to get more families out of detention. There try not to hold people as long when they come into the United States there trying to get children out of those border patrols stations and into health, inhuman services as fast as possible, but is not a. I don't think it's a month, long project, I don't even think it's a one term project is going to do what they say they are going to do. It's gonna take a very long time and it's not only the root causes not only addressing poverty. A mandatory starvation climate change persecution. It's also changing the approach how migrants are dealt with when they come to seek asylum at the south. Was border because if they dont change it and sector in my work is said to me directly faces is he would like a different approach. He doesn't want to lock up families he doesn't want gives languishing

over the seventy two hour limit, if they don't do that, they'll be another increase in my, And at some point- and you can see this all play out again the same thing with several times- you know during your bottom inspiration what we saw during the trip. Ministration, What we saw here at the beginning of this administration, as well You cover the immigration advocacy community very closely. What what are some of the things that They want the administration to do right now that they have not yet done or not yet been able to do for some. So some assorted reasons. The great question title forty two, I think, sounds confusing when you hear it, it's like what is that That's the number one agenda item for immigration, at the moment. What title forty two is is a trumpet Illustration cities policy, supposedly that bars migrants from coming into the country based on me. No, the idea will protect the. U S covered doctors as an aside, say it just not true, and not necessary

the by demonstration kept in place for the most part, they lead in unaccompanied children, which the Trump menstruation wasn't doing. They ve started to let in some families, but all single adults. Our immediately expelled when they get to the border many families or Emilia expelled when they get to the border what that is, resulting in another form of family separation. Families are sending children ahead of mom and dad because He has every opportunity to get into the United States and it is putting people if you asked organizations like human, its first two documents, the stuff- I must daily basis into extreme. We dangerous conditions when the public health professionals would tell We don't wish you don't need this as a public health imperative. It's really more about politics at this point and that sort of way you know it's not even a secret anymore. I guess his wandering to say at the White House level there gearing up try to undo this policy, but it's not happening fast enough.

Why do you think it's moving more slow? I know at the beginning of ministration we target their land. Is reporting, whilst having other border in one of the biggest use was covered. It made everything harder about how many people you could put in a facility has re causing them to be it somebody's satellite facilities that, were you know either worse condition than the deployment of facilities. We know. Is that still an issue that sort of things down? Is it the simple fact that government it takes longer than it should Arthur issues still be. No one thinks we experience about. Administration was even when you had a shift in policy. The top and getting law so the? Why not the operator I gotta threat the operators to do that. You don't know what our The challenges are dealing with here: well tunnel, to is separate and distinct. I think from capacity issues in health and human services and an in I'm glad you rather that up, because I think nobody wants these children to be in once they get to the custody of aid. It s, which is where advocates want them to be

nobody wants him to be a number of what are called emergency and take sites like the one that at Fort Bliss, for instance, over these horrific reports in four documents. It came out just over the last couple weeks about having suicidal radiations and other really terrible stuff because of the conditions there because of the scale because of the its personnel that are there they're, not licensed facilities and those licence facilities? Dear We have limited capacity because a covert they can't put kid side by side and beds almost in a dormitory style setting and that's real, that's very Helen, and I was like China, press call was secretary acerra the other day where they said they're trying to wind down those emergency sites that are less personal. That advocate say, are more dangerous to children and move to a licensed bed type model it's it's not as relevant with title forty, two on the border, the idea that covert is running rampant is it's just. I was it not the case using president and the vice president and everybody going around the country? Not worry mass anymore, I'm sure you and

when we go out, you know into the public are not are not wearing mass anymore. Unless you, The situation where you need to, and so when it comes to that had a forty two on the border I dont think Cove. It is, is an excuse at this point. That's what doctors are saying, don't take my word for it, take the professionals or for a but but I'm still how we're gonna house kids, I do think that it still an impediment because I was the kids are vaccinated. There has been a lot of blow back some immigration advocacy community over the statements about dont come there were made during the vice present. stripped our central America at this time. Another is reporting slate yesterday. That said, the present is working You make America's asylum system more humane, while preventing any one from reaching it. Can you help unpack, sort of both the imperative behind why

before delivering. This don't come message what they're trying to say and the challenges with the asylum system. Right now, to be honest with you, I think don't come So my reporting and based on my observations is, is a is a fruit, less message: it just doesn't work I mean you might remember the interview that personal bombarded with George seven apples were very famously said. These kids should not come right in its work. They do not social media. I think during the Trump ministration saying look. This is not a new message, trumps at these strong, don't come message possible. We will rip you away from your children and leave you with personal and lifelong try. not that you will never be able to undue and we'll have to endure for as long as you walk this earth and people still. Members, at the end of his administration. Resize, they had been among the modern era. They went down with cold, Another back up and ass. Another thing that I'd like to throw your reality check on that,

Everybody sombre how the numbers today are as high as they ve been in twenty years. There not much different from the numbers at the peak of the trumpet ministration and the only reason those numbers went down we're not because of the cruelty. There were because of covert. They were because people stay home. People had no other option, but to stay home now they have no other option but to leave the desperate circumstances that they are in. So vice versa. Harris can say, don't come down from could say, don't come with extreme cruelty, present a bombing and say don't come, it does not work, it has never worked and. asylum there, as part of this is, is protected under international law. Is an international right that people have, and so you can see come on. You want, but your basically asking people not to exercise their right to side, step foot into the United States and say: look I'm seeking ready Basically, I am seeking save the insecurity from any number of issues, and- and I just don't think those two things are compatible- that don't commenced

with war, the United States of America. We are replaced that represent safety, security and a better life, and we will protect you want you make it to our our Arusha, not our shores, but but helpless border green. In my time, though, it ass, there was no issue that I more challenging to deal with in this. For all the reasons you sat right, you can send a message. You can do these things there the walls are so complicated, confusing you end up with these unaccompanied children with not an obvious point. Not an obvious solution, would be to do with them in a way that is safe and healthy, and you have in some cases the wrong agency in charge of it, but I think part of the challenge in the interpretation of the don't come message amounts. There's embassy, some real issues that we dealt with with the asylum process itself in this in the transition trumped, abiden and the postcode in they transformed covered two theoretically post covered world. It is also isn't some of their message.

there are other ways to appear to exercise the right to asylum. Then going on it very, very dangerous journey that involves in many cases of trafficking. of the stories that you have written and others have talked about it happen to children. And women on these path, are, you know, just absolutely horrified? the central American Minors Programme, which is the official name of basically the way to apply to get the United States from your home country wasn't was literally dismantle by the truck ministration was stood up when you guys were around, and now the bottom instruction is trying to bring back and scale it up, but the scale of people who are able to actually go through that process and come here. You know pails a comparison to the amount of people to show up on the selfless border and your right. They they. You know how to guess. The question is: how do you prevent or from having to go on this dangerous journey. What a most dangerous journeys on planet earth present Trump called it. A walk and central

like a walk in central park, never heard any more ridiculous in the first place. How do you do it? And I don't think that there is an answer at this point and that's part of the challenge of this. You know how one of the things that happens during every administration, as well as that they start leaning on Mexico and leaning on the central american countries to prevent people from coming here, and I guess the question that I had this for the future administration for anyone else. It wants to reform this. What part of having Mexico outsourced enforcement, I guess, is the sort of the shorthand what part of outsourcing enforce them, telling people to turn around and just it out in your home country, is building a fair, safer, humane system, you know just because we don't do the deporting spelling, doesn't mean that Mexico doing it is not equally as harmful to somebody's families, and you know you just

tell families who and what the chicken little a copper. When I was reporting the book in Guatemala, the dry corridor, where people's livelihoods, are literally drying up, because if you know climate change, climate variable, these things like Armenia, then able to able to make money from know from four their crops. It didn't go work on in the fields. There's no supplemental nutrition and what happens then is Europe Faced with this situation, we gonna stay at home or you can leave for survival, and that's what I found over and over again when I went to sort of those rural communities, as the people didn't have any choice. There is not a a person that I met when I was there, I heard the vice presidents. It is to do what I tell you yeah

leave. I definitely want to leave and I want to take their journey across Mexico in order to make my way to the United States. It just doesn't happen. Almost nobody will tell you that, but when faced with a choice, that is what they do and so until they caught they use that language about capacity sector. In my work as the vice president, until it can figure out a way to build capacity and actually have these systems work in country in order to get people to apply and leave by airplane in order to come here rather than take the journey, you can still see the same thing and you know there's a women journalists and other policy maker. I don't actually dont know what that looks like, but it is perhaps I think, the greatest challenge. creating the system that they say today that they want to create the context of trying to unwind thee. Gresham policies, one of the absolute highest priorities is trying to reunite the children who are separated with their family. You reported yesterday that lawyers and irish workers have found the parents Three more migrant children

brings a number of separated children to three and sixty eight, What are the prospects for reuniting the remaining children? It was from efforts are under way to do that. I think it's the zero fail to use the title Carolyn expert Project for this administration. I think that they're not going to stop at least that's what they tell me until their able to track down and find each and every one of them is actually higher than the three hundred and sixty eight three hundred and sixty eight is just those who they have not been able to reach. Yet they can't find them. It literally can't find them because of how horrible the record, keeping was during the Trump NEWS there's over a thousand families who are still separate and many of them parents that were deported right after they were taken from their kids? They ve been separated for years three years. Many in this you know at this point may some of em, maybe for four There's an so. You got another embedded with some of these votes. You got people going door to door in the United States. Looking for families do they cannot track down. You ve got families in Central America.

There are Ngos like justice in motion, kids needed offence. The women's Refugee Commission Outreach Lotto. Monica family of agencies who, if they are in the presence of this, do that their sluiced or detectives. They have to go and basically go through every piece of data that they can find it was. It was it was purposely done this way I should say- and we should say it over and over again by the truck administration and it's why? I wonder. Actually I mean there's the reunification piece of this and then there's the accountability piece of this, and my question is present Biden set as a candidate. He believe this policy was criminal. He told Japan and my colleagues that the thorough investigation was going to happen from the Justice Department about criminality of this policy. I believe that the? U s government can entirely wooden with these embryo partners, find and tracked down and reuniting families and hopefully give them permanently

in the United States that sign it hasn't been guaranteed. Yet. The other question I have is what have instead of people are dying about earlier? What happens to Chad, Wolf, Kirsty Nielsen Jeff Sessions, Stephen Miller, a president trump himself data they had. They had a I read about this in the new afterward of the paper back. They had a meeting in the White House situation room, but they did a show of hands vote called for by state. Nor to move forward with separations and think about the things when you guys were in that situation room was used for most famously going after Osama Bin Laden. The idea, that these guys we're sitting there and saying cold up your hand. It's on American. If we don't move forward with family separations, they knew full well exactly what the consequence. would be because they were worn by age ass. They were worn by people in ice. They were warned by people indeed just across the board, and they did it anyway, so well they reunite the families I think this administration says. Doesn't it they're gonna do yeah. They will do. I think that its happening soon,

love. No. There is not enough for four for trying to hear these families that went through what they went through, but the next step is whether justice and right now I see no signs of that and there's been no evidence, including Secretary America's and our conversation to set reunification, are first, if accountability that will come next, I thought Think about Jacob thanks much for joining us check out his book separated, which is now out paperback, damping thanks Renate Jacob love it and how they will be back with Especial July. Fourth episode out Monday by everyone, pod save America is a crooked media production. The executive producer is Michael Martinez. Our senior producer, is lobby. Causes are associate, produce, are Jazzy Marine and Bolivia, Martinez its mixed in edited by Andrew Chadwick, while someone is our sounded. Junior The tiniest terminator Katy Long, roman puppet Dimitrios Karen resting ingesting how for production support in Jordan,

need a larger cone, Phoebe Bradford, Milo him yell Freed and Normal Conan, who film and share our episodes as videos. Every week. Is it just me, or do you sometimes wish the news were more fun? Yes, cathartic, origin I'm Aaron, Ryan, political commentator, Kommeni, writer and host of crooked media's hysteria and I'm Alyssum astronomical former White House, deputy chief of staff or President Obama and errands caused. We cover everything from reproductive rights to shit. We feel petty about and break down the political news of the week, plus the store that a women's lives listen, do hysteria wherever you listen to podcast new episodes drop every Thursday