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saved our complex crooked for fifty percent off your entire system. Welcome deposit America, I'm John Favour. I'm John love! It Tommy veto on today's pot, the White House, not winds while democratic debate, the parties challenges professor, was a married going to talk about the verdict and the Cairo written has case come on. Hers is eighty five minute presidency spawned enough takes to fill to terms, but first some fun news on Tuesday December seventh Crooked will be look back on twenty twenty one with especial live stream event. Where calling what a year when a year, it will include your favorite cricket, hosts special guests and more to help you process all the joys follies incomplete

total meltdowns of this past year will also be raising money for our no off yours fund to help register voters and all the most important swing states ahead of the mid terms. So join us live for. The your life stream on Tuesday December seventh, at five p M Pacific, eight p m eastern to RSVP, had to crooked dot com slash what a year I must get to the news We had into thanksgiving. There are new reasons for Democrats to be optimistic and reasons for Democrats to keeping ourselves last week began with President Biden signing a bipartisan jobs and infrastructure bill and ended with House Democrats passing the rest of his economic plan, which would use higher taxes on the rich and big corporations to fight climate change and lower the cost of healthcare childcare in education. The administration has also now authorize booster shots for everyone and is purchased ten million doses of the nuke. It antiviral pill for when that gets authorized in there, lines everywhere that global supply chain issues are starting to improve

the other hands. Prices are still high covert cases, rising again Joe mentioning Pearson Cinema get a final say on bill back better there's a new round of democratic in fighting over the parties- current political predicament, but let's start with the case for optimism Tommy how you feel about all the Good NEWS from last week, how I feel about all the Good NEWS I would say: medium to not good medium tonight, ok is that enough. We let it be on us. Of course, this is save America. We never tell a lie on the start of ASEAN performative. Leave this happy that I go about. It cutting was coming through the bs here, ok policy, and by this, Tell me credit for getting the economic bill pass in the house. If it becomes law it will invest in clean energy and universal Pre K and cheaper prescription drugs. There's a lot of massive important things in there, I'm just worried about when this bill gets into the the Senate's and the performatively moderate hands of Kyrsten Sinema Joe Manchin as

as you mentioned, look God knows what knows of flesh they want, but the companies is good. I'm glad Aroun get boosted. I'm glad that there are now pills you can take. If you don't want to get a booster, I still work. The problem is people get vaccinated and I am not entirely sure what we do about that so supply chain. John bright eyes I have, I had said, easing supply chain. Choke points was part of our watchword. no headline, that's a good thing. I guess Now everyone on the supply chain just funny, because I've fucked Barges and the Suez Canal, yeah nineteen, Marilla I dont there. Yet I forgot about going Irish. Go onto the l, a potent HOLLAND boxes himself. I don't know. I think the best news of all of that is the is the boosters in the covert bill. Here's the thing aright Joe, and was fuckin right in September Doktor Anthony found. She was king right. In September. I went on this red Thursday. I now that was good. I know- and I am- and I wanted to go further- these

kinda pointy headed public health fuckin dipshit have everybody lining up right before Thanksgiving you get a booster. They should have been allowed to get in fucking September. They are despicable, despicable was an astute abandons. Pascal Lamy Look Andrews here, living in the fuckin lights that science has shown on us unbelievable despicable behaviour, unfortunate its unfortunate its unfortunately it happened as many public health experts and scientists were on this The bite administration you bad day. One should add you bet, we Naomi in fact, and forgetting most of them were both again the vocal minorities where we heard about in the press sigh anyone to explaining. How do I do I do this yet, but I still believe look goose, be said, MR to two timing. I last week like most of the economically

we were facing most of these sour national mood is being caused by the pandemic still and we get through this winter. On fino we're seeing arising cases Fortunately, it's the winter. This thing is seasonal. We know that now, but with I was just getting rolled out to everyone with vaccines going to kids between five and eleven? Hopefully, the vaccines are approved fur kid six months to five. Next early twenty, we too. I think she said recently once we get all that and we hopefully get through this winter surge like that's getting us closer to the day when we can actually start treating covert like the flew, like that's, where we're hopefully be an early twenty two with all of these new tools and the toolbar jeopardize the anti virus and anti viral pill and expanding the vaccinations tickets. Yeah other I'll. Just tell you guys. I went to a football game. Last night I saw the Steelers play the chargers at I stadium with about sixty five fell,

and of my closest friends all in one arena that is enclosed. So I think a lot of people are already treating covered get data thing at all here that, in my view, the problem that is very much drew an area that has emerged true, but yet the supply chain problems and the EL that kind of stuff. It's you know it's tough, were soldiers, climate, not about the russian Post, reported that a bunch of outside advisors are pitching the Biden team on refraining inflation as being about greek operations, which I think was dance pitch. Last week's, let's smart, its accurate and I worked yeah, they started with the with the oil. Canada will only let her gonna. Let me list you, you mentioned this time. He was talking about the M, build back better heads to the Senate, mansion and cinema have been fair. quiet so far? I don't love how you feel, how confident you feel it about this. You know was interesting why Elizabeth Warren said to you, because it's actually a reversal of where we were a few months ago, a few months ago. It was hey mentioned at the table, but we have no idea what course and cinema wants it. It sounds like that's changed a bit ah

Now she hasn't like wandering around a kind of lost in the grocery store. I will as a very funny words that genetic she's, at least specific about, like she might be annoying in what she wants, but she's being specific privately about what she wants. Even they should not doing it publicly. While mention is just like every time you get him he's a boom word about inflation rate, right, although I guess for a long time when we were young, it mentioned for not being specific attraction Marie sitting on a detailed memo outlining all this concerns and in detail that it has been in for myself for the heads of troops. Yet look I mean I am hopeful that again and what can you do but be hopeful that the costs General Budget Office score outside economists are saying it's not gonna deficit or inflation. Maybe that will help to mention a little bit ray moderate in the in the house. Every centrist in the house supported this bill, except for Jared Golden

and for their golden. It was mainly about the salt provisions and not and not about the other provisions. Look I think we should all be prepared for Joe mention to continue t try again to take out paid family paid, which was put back into the house version. I think we should be prepared for the parliamentarian, to once again rule out somebody's immigration proposals, which can be huge disappointment and then mention that adds and specific answer He was yelling about like there's extra money for electric vehicles, that are mere constructed in union? you have. I would he be opposed by communist. Like he's Edward, you like every every electric vehicle should get the same credit. Not you should against ridiculous, of course, but like there's, gonna, probably little things that he and Cinema still kind of pick apart, never get a pound, The big question is like: do you wake up one day and see a dimension press conference where he's like I've just thought about why I'm still too afraid inflation a camp over this bill nets? I bet that that's the real fear, but the waiter seems confident that you know the Democrats.

in covered somewhere and cinema and Cinema basically kind of importing cold water. House past use the kind of binding framework as what she was working off of as something that you is more likely to support so mean the reason for hope there that that it is short of moving towards some from the final resolution one person who seems concerned is a yo see who gave an interview to the New York Times over the weekend where she said. I think that if we pass the bill back better ACT as the house past it that we have a shot to go back to our communities and say we delivered, but that's not to say that this process has not been demoralising for a lot of folks, because there are enormous promises made, and this is where I have sounded the alarm, because what really dampens turn out as when Democrats make promises that

Don't keep tell me what you think by that argument. I mean I'd. I share her brought her anxiety that Progressive may have given up their last really strong piece of leverage by voting for the infrastructure bill without an immediate vote until by better that's a fair point, and if the building better but doesn't past would be politically disastrous, she's right that the final version of the infrastructure bill was trimmed a bunch and the messaging didn't always get adjusted accordingly. So, for example, she pointed the fact that the original into your bill at forty five billion dollars to replace lead pipes back out whittled down to fifteen billion, but there are still saying our replace every pipe in the country, we're not going through that much money money. Today, shortfall as we saw in Flint let exposure is, is disastrous and can permanent damage. Kids, bloody with the bills pass in, there's still a sense of let down among the base. I think, maybe that's partly substantive bits, also a bit of an expectations, management problem and I think the entire day party own Zat, including Elsie, including progresses in the house, including most of all chuck humor.

for sitting on the aforementioned memo from Joe Mansion and so on, they're wrong to fight for more or that say that they want more, but I think we're all operating under political constraints here, and what I hope everyone will do about these bills passes, go to their constituencies, go to their districts and say we have. Fifteen billion replaces lead pipes like we're Democrats, and we get forty five you know I mean we have four weeks of paid leave leave hopefully, but like we're Democrats more will fight for twelve. Like I know, it's exhausting the workforce, fucking endless, but politics is endless, exhausting work. She seemed to make the argument that if you pass build that better than you, it will be all lead pipes that at that that that debt, the infrastructure bill specifically, is different from forty five fifteen you're right, but they know they shoot, but she was specifically the kind of lasting awaits him of biting tweets that suggested. The re antimony would pay for At the same time, we should all help rebuild I better bright. I think you get the rest of the letter I sent you have eaten

It does seem like what she was voicing was general frustration with the process that led to this point not or not. since that have built back better. If a compromise version of build back better passes, it is some new kind of failure to her mind. It is more that I think it was it fell to me like just someone lamenting the same thing. We have been lamenting for like the past couple months, like Jesus Christ, are we willing this thing to have so much when we went when that the politics are behind it, the the poles are behind it like why, are we putting ourselves in this kind of less popular position, which I think is completely right? I mean you know, or are there people who think it's? The entire democratic parties fault that Joe Biden in a democratic majority couldn't pass everything they ran on. Yes, of course, but like that

ocean, is: what can you do about that? If you are elected Democrat like what war or the rest of us, all you can do, is fight for the best bills possible, go back to your voters in your constituents and tell them that Joe mention Kirsten Cinema blocked a bigger bill, a better bill. Tell people exactly. What's in the bill you passed and specifically how it's going to change their lives. And then tell them what's gonna happen if the Republicans take power, like that, that's really all you can do in this situation. I know there's no other option like I know that people are frustrated that it that it seems like the Democrats have been fuck this up. But again it's these two people and if the fucked it up and all we can do is tell people that that's the truth. Your options are the by an agenda. The Bernie agendas, the by an agenda, the Trump agenda. Unfortunately, the idea, other more specific points you makes is that their executive actions by an could take it. He hasn't yet taken see

Difficulty on student debt and I've always assume that EL fair. He was waiting on that because HEAT Biden probably doesn't want Joe mentioned these guys to tally up the cost of student debt relief and apply a towards. You know the tab in terms of the things it might do legislatively. Thank each by was a sequence differently. They get these bills passed then do student debt relief, at least I hope, if he doesn't do that and certainly deserves, because, as I think, it's a really good point that look. They, though the buying White House has in many ways been held hostage by mansion and cinema on whole host of things, while they're trying to pass these two very big pieces of legislation and in it, if you're in the White House, you have to soak it what's the most important thing in the world right now, the most important in order not to get build back, better pass, that's the entire agenda, and if I have to not emphasize other issues, do not resolve Joe Mansion, then

that's what I'm gonna do and for the price of delaying get both yes, but again. If he doesn't do after that than young people deserve to be passed. There's also been quite a bit of debate over a New York magazine, peace, where Jonathan Shade argues that quote. Binds presidency began to disintegrate because he found himself trapped between two well funded left wing that his poison the parties image with many of its former supporters and centrists, unable to conceive of their job in any terms save as valid for the business elite. So basically, he says that progressive activists online and in think tanks have pushed policies like defined the police in decriminalizing all border crossings that pushed away

not only Non College, educated white voters but Non college educated, black and latino voters as well, and while those voters might respond to more economically populous policies from the Democratic Party centrist in Congress have fuck that up by doing the bidding of the Chamber of Commerce and the pharmaceutical industry and build back better? What are you guys think of the peace loving? Would you think I think, along its very long? Ah, I think, is really smart. we love. We left as Eichelberger legs. It appears that we and our long- I did this with the CNN com. A hare story does my first take. Is that its law? Yes, we are nothing about ways I think it. I think it makes a very small point. I think it actually kind of has a little bit of a false equivalence between who is criticising on the left and who is criticising from the centre, the century, something about policy makers who are actually limiting the scope of democratic ambition in a really harmful substantive way and on the left. He is

I think he he makes reference to it, but he kind of allied the fact that the reason to fund the police abolish ice. Some other shoes have become so associated with. All Democrats is not because of the successive activism, but because of a right, being misinformation campaign to paint all Democrats as having that position. So I think that is, I think, a little bit, but a bunch of activists have, This, of course, is of more absolute, like the Democrats up I'm. So I'm just saying that I thought it was a very small piece. I do think that is a distinction work worth making right like the the these centrist critique. That is, I think, fanciful and politically stupid and talks has actually had a really negative impact on the governing of this country. Right now, actively right now and may heard our chances to keep the house and keep the Senate. I think the problem from the left is more about the impact of, but yes it actually true that these are the positions, activism

Some members of Congress have taken, but that the reason Abigails man Burger does a conference call where she criticise a sea or or Conor Lamb criticizes. The squad is not just because there is a left wing position that they find harmful. It is that they are being tarred with it by Fox NEWS and the Republican you follow that line. Yet I think where he lost me was the other, the power that was being ascribed to big, think tank occurrence shootings Everley. I barely know what liberal think tanks are up to you on a daily basis. I dont think, like liberal donors are necessarily pushing that may arise of a more fundamental scepticism of that communities. I don't live in Washington get, but I think people are talking about police brutality and fund the police. Gus George Floyd was murdered not because about why paper from like D, most or whatever. I do think like the similar weakness in some arguments. I think it was a an overly Washington focused argument for why Joe Biden preventing his download idea

the report being went down because Afghanistan and then the delta variant and gas prices are up and inflation. We have that driving voter sentiment more than the Washington fighting disaster. This Agnes of ongoing propaganda campaign to say that the current president is illegitimate and then he's in cognitive decline in that I think doing real damage, so they obviously the legislative process has not helped as really glad the really strong part of Shakespeare was when he called out centres, Heidi High Camp Blanche, Lincoln and MAX Bokkis, even apparently, our sharpen for lobbying to keep tax breaks for the richest people on the planet. That's awful! I think, Sir, again. That is the way to state and local tax deduction is currently structured bees its criminally stupid and gives rich people you'd stack up. They don't need. Part of the argument is basically like look the political incentives in primaries push people two extremes to positions that would be unpopular in the general election, but that's been true for eternity in its true for both

sides. So I, like I, didn't by the idea that, like Elizabeth Warren's campaign was undone by the Progressive Foundation, complex I remember, having one bad debate and at a much people- and I would aside shoes unelectable, because an upright reasons that were gendered ends. You know more about like trying to divide the intention about. Oh hi owed swing voter than something that a think tank then mean. I think it's the. It is true that progressive activists and probably donors in some politicians, embraced set of policies run defined. The police, decriminalizing border crossings abolish ice completely, replacing private insurance with government insurance. That's a significant majority of voters did not like do not like currently, and that's,

primarily voters without white voters without a college degree, but also increasingly blacken the Tina voters without a college degree as well in one of those voters with Joe Biden, but it was felt that was vain. It wouldn't like. It is also true that Joe Biden in the majority of democratic politicians specifically opposed those policy red one there races and we're popular for the first six months of twenty twenty one right so well by the way The right wing was attacking those policies and and and making a big deal now, that kind of stuff, and yet still Joe Biden, was sitting at fifty cents, percent approval and may Democrats were leading the generic ballot for Congress at that point, and now, when you ask people why they don't approve

Joe Biden, and why they don't approve of Democrats in Congress. They overwhelmingly say it's because they haven't focused enough unfix fixing the economy and rising costs. That's what they say so against like there's parts of cheats, argument about the left bitter true, but I just I agree with you- tell me that I just don't think that's what affected his approval rating or, as presidency or Democrats operating as well, there's a lot of like thoughtful analysis of interesting points, and then I thought and did the totality of was sort of like and it's the fault of people who annoy me onto it all right. Yet there is always the diamond, that's part of it, but I do think his look. What to love? It's point. What the what the centres did to build back better didn't just hurt the bill substantively, as you pointed out, but it was politically yeah, that's right: they they change the dumbest. They change the policies that were actually most popular with large majorities of voters across the country across parties across races. Policies, like you, know, taxing the rich and

spending Medicare right, similar, worse things that happened to that bill were because of those senders I mentioned, or lobbying against the text and it's also worth pointing out too that you know corporate centralism is unpopular. Some left wing policies that she describes are broadly speaking, unpopular from the left. There an effort to kind of Movie Overton Window to imagine a more humane and just society and trying figure out a way to make a broader imaginative case that cuts through from the right you have people who are. Doing the bidding of donors or who are an of like nineties, political, conventional wisdom who are cut. down things that will help people in a real way. Fur. First, cynical reasons that aren't even good politics, so I do think that there is a real false equivalence, thereby, fundamentally you know it doesn't ultimately end up being that complicated will probably do better

politically, if our policies are popular and we pass them just to be, I've ever had been I'm overly critical of the peace. I think, he's right that it is infuriating when you read articles that tree groups like the Chamber of Commerce like there's some sort of like good government group, just sort of lobbying in good faith. you know like that. That is a fair points. Are of this fetish isolation of of moderation in the mainstream press? He is also right that I think the the argued

is that the way to win is purely through a hyper charge based turn out. Model of politics is not really convincing, at least on a presidential level in the winning candidate is going to ask the turn out a base and convincing swing voters, and we are sure to get used to that and try to like move forward accordingly and stop debating this, because I just the everyone just misreading the Obama, two thousand and twelve result that we have to stop well and I would say to it for progressive suit who deeply believe in those policies like D fund or or or abolishing eyes or whatever you know. The answer doesn't have to be to give up the beliefs on those policies, but you do have to realise that there is a lot more work to be done to persuade enough people that those are good policies. Tell yourself bit that a majority of people just don't support these policies because they ve been brainwashed right. You got fuckin work to do to persuade people, and even if they have been brainwashed, even if it's there is the media sucks.

Right. Wing propaganda machine is real, but that is the reality we live in and the only way around it is to go there and persuade people that your ideas are good. Some of that requires may be changing messaging, some of it where's compromising on the actual policy, but it does require some work. Ok, when we come back, we will talk to Professor Melissa, Murray of the strict scrutiny, cast about the Cairo written housework pots, EVA America, is brought by forcing Matic Wellness company that is well known for its delicious mushroom coffee. Forcing Maddox mushroom coffee is real, organic, fair, trade signal origin or Rebecca Coffee with lines main mushroom for productivity in chug, a mushroom for immune support. As you know, we ve all been starting our day with forcing medics. Grand mushroom coffee with lines means that a regular coffee

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that's well front. I complex cricket to get started today. On Friday, seventeen year Old, Kyle written House was acquitted on each of the five charges against him, including homicide back in August. Twenty written, how showed up in Canosa was content with an air fifteen style rifle during protest that followed the shooting of Jacob Blake Rittenhouse claimed he was trying to keep the street safe and that he shot three people in self defense, rightwing, pundits and politicians are now treating him as a hero. Lot of other people are worried that his acquittal will encourage more vigilante violence, and President Biden said that, while the verdict quote will leave many Americans feeling angry and concerned myself included, we must acknowledge that the jury, ok, so we wanted to get into how the jury came to this decision and where we go from here, which is why were joint again by Militia Murray from the strict scrutiny podcast Melissa. Welcome back thanks for having me so from everything. I've read, it seems as if the prosecution had our differ

what job both because of the way the law was written and the evidence presented in this particular case? What do you think I think that's right, I think. Usually the prosecution is always arguing uphill in most of these cases, because the prosecution has the burden of proving the defendant skilled beyond reasonable doubt and that's an incredibly high standards. So any kind of sliver of doubt would arguably work against the press. Caution in here that was compounded by the fact that Karl Rittenhouse was doing or said he was acting in self defence and that two presents the prosecution within added burden, I'm in order to defeat a self defense defends. The prosecution would have to disprove that Karl Rittenhouse was acting reasonably and would have to make that burden of proof beyond reasonable doubt as well, so not only

did they have to prove his guilt. When he presented that affirmative defence of self defence, they had to disprove that beyond reasonable doubt, could you may go? We will call for why Rittenhouse should have been convicted either of homicide or perhaps one of the lesser charges so. I think that is really the question that I think a lot of lawyers have after watching this like. So it is true that you know there's if there's an uphill club for the prosecution to make out one of those homicide charges on especially the murder in the four degree charge that was first offered, but the fact that the gene allowed the jury to be instructed on lesser included offences, including offences in that included, Homicides that did not require intent, but rather required an entirely different state of mind like recklessness, which is simply yo. You know that there is danger, and you do it anyway- you're not meaning to hurt anyone but you're just acting recklessly and the jury

go for that either. I having many people felt that the inclusion of those lesser included offences, including recklessly wrecked really endangering those around. You would have allowed the jury, some kind of out to provide some kind of conviction, but not now The ceremony conviction on one of the more serious charges and they kind of really went to hook, line and see girl for this idea that Karl Britain House was there in Canosa brandishing and our fifteen, and he was doing it in a way that was simply responding to these perceive threats by these other individuals on two of whom he managed to kill, even though the fault of the prosecutors from zeroing in on those lesser chargers, or is that just they tried in the jury just decided not to go there? Well I mean they did. those included in the jury, instructions, and I think it's always a really difficult decision for prosecutors to decide what to charge and no. This is on Monday morning, quarter backing to some extent, and if you just recall,

those moments in the aftermath of written house is killing of those two men and that take a break shooting in Canosa the timing the feeling was so pitched and charge at that point, and I think it would have been very difficult for a prosecutor to walk away from a first degree, murder, charge and that environment and to choose something less media, we're thinking about this and almost a year later. But in that moment it was really the sort of deep fever pitch anxiety and unreal a real desire to see justice servant. I think that's why they pursued that difficult, felony charge, but again the fact that those lesser included offensive were in their could have given the jury that was inclined to convict an option to do so without really having to convict on the most serious charge

love it. We sent a letter, Republicans celebrate written houses, some kind of a hero he's been offered internships by mad gates, medicine, Catherine, Paul ghosts are: would crew Fox NEWS Hugh? He would show contributor Kurtz Lictor tweeted the following in response to those who are upset with the verdict quote your pain delights me: Kyle Rittenhouse killed two leftist cats pause and bisected, of another and there's nothing? You can do about it? What do you make of these very normal reactions, charming You really are alarming. Look why why do people say these things wide as a kid believe: yadda Garda, fucking car dealers, shipping canosa, even though he may. the situation more dangerous by his presence. It's because of the media he consumes. These people are part of that media Yoke, he was deputized by Tucker Carlsson, and so you know an end. We get into these debates over can of symbolic examples, but these

real people that died and right wing, media figures and politicians like they don't care that people died or even they don't and even care that they drove this kid into a situation in which you kill people. You know they. A living vigilante is useful to them. A dead vigilante is useful to them, right. Kyle Rittenhouse House gets to be a hero like Ashley by they get to be a martyr, and you know this the the fact that real people will be hurt, the real people will be impact, doesn't really matter, I mean look, it's the same logic every night, Fox NEWS. A vaccinated workforce led by vaccinated anchors, spreads vaccine misinformation like, of course they don't care of people live or die. They feed their biggest fans, the bodies of their biggest fans into the like mill. The grist mill of their content factory for four four outrage for

events. They do not care. So, of course, they'll celebrate this guy's a hero. They do not care. If this leads to more people, taken it upon themselves to go out there and be vigilantes to make dangerous situations worse because its bid, that's it. That's all. I have to say I may I think it's a lot to Serbian. This really, I think, suggest not just that spate of disinformation and misinformation that has been consumed by just the course sitting of our discourse. I mean you're exactly right, like two people died their families are mourning their families are morning. This verdict which to them, does not feel like justice, and your literally dancing on their graves- and you know I remember the right after the verdict was Red Fox use, got an interview with Carl Rittenhouse

highly unorthodox for a defendant, just beating a serious rap too then talk to media in the way that he did, but at an again is what this is about self balance and the second amendment Armenia. What we put this is actually about what happened. Was a tragedy, as you say, on all sides. It is also worth Putting John you know, you mentioned that he is a kid who is consumed Eddie Diet, perhaps of right wing propaganda. I also think that worked in his face Here the idea that he was paid as well. by white, we media or whoever arouse as a child, is someone who could do. Into a situation as volatile as this one sort of unwittingly and you know be provocative- not even understand how provocative he was being and then have all of this house and then I think his testimony on the stand where he no sort of blubbering in

here it lay for several minutes. I think fed into this idea that this is someone who is acting reasonably for a teenager, who is without the sort of broader maturity and capacity to really understand how unusual and provocative what he did actually was in that moment, and I think all of that played on the jury and uniting for those who are watching my son mothers, african american boys. I think you can't help but notice, like not. Every child in this country gets the benefit of being a seventeen year old who does dumb stuff, and I think that was to me at least the most salient lesson of this trial like who gets to be a child in this country and who is constantly treated as an adult yeah. I mean I think, but this is a complicated case and there were a lot of complicated details that sort of you know came out through the course of the trial and through some of the reporting, but

I think it's very easy if, if for those on the right to have said yeah, this was decided correctly on the merits legally. But it's a tragedy and let's all move on this tragedy, but they did. They spoke spoken and they spoke. Something that is a tragedy for everyone involved and Europe, but I mean again the coarsening of our discourse on the reason dont view it as a tragedy is because day This is the society. They are quite comfortable building right! Look if, if what we have here, is a situation in which, because the guns themselves are legal, that you cannot circumstance in which people descend on a place, bring incredibly dangerous weapons to that place, Anyone with a weapon is a threat. Anyone with a weapon can feel threatened. Three people can be shot. Two people can be dead. No crime was committed. That's

That is a lawless place. That's not canosa anymore, like that squid game right, that's what that's what we're heading towards, and I do think that sometimes in our kind of political conversation, alot of legal experts on television will be descriptive about the law right about what the law says, what the law doesn't say, but you stepped back in its like What this is not the society that we want. This is not the and of world. We want to live in it's the irony airy. It's the resort, Eu Law for the promotion of justifying what is essentially Wallace Behaviour right, say what you will about the prosecution and the upheld battle. I mean- and this was a wish for. The defense attorneys knew exactly what they had to do. to open the door for doubt open the door for reasonable doubt make an affirmative defence of self defence, and if anything, the circumstances are really complicated. Linking there were the victims.

on the one hand, sort of wrestling with the gun idea that could be taken as a provocative position and in a apparently that was actually something. The jury really was quite taken. What they ask just review that footage repeatedly when they were delivered, so that obviously was something that they were trying to wrestle with. But again you have the laws like the LAW of self defence working in full or of a situation that was ultimately unbound by law. In that I really profound way, so we are still waiting for a verdict in another case involving vigilante violence where three Georgia, men are accused of murdering about armoury a twenty five year old, unarmed black man who they claim they chased and killed because they thought he committed burglaries Melissa. How are the facts of that kind

different, and do you expect a different verdict so, and I do think they are a little different, am one because Ahmad Arbitrary the individual who was killed was unarmed. He was jogging through neighbourhood, it is true he stopped to look at an unoccupied house. There was in the process of being built on in We're just one does not necessarily have to take anything from a home in order for it to be a burglar, it simply the entrance into a dwelling place of another, but again the facts, seem. A little broader asked you whether or not there was a felony and progress that these individuals, emboldened by a citizen Arrest statute that was on the books of the time has been subsequently repealed by the Georgia Ledge later, would have been obliged to address. They never actually declared to him that he was that they were conducting a citizens rather than he was under a citizen's arise, so it could be the key.

The jury actually be used as a kind of a makeshift excuse that was made up after the fact. This isn't exactly what they were doing. I'm in the way. The idea that you have these three guys rolling around in a pickup truck chasing a black man in the streets of Georgia trying to secure to citizens, arrest, may strike some as different. Perhaps more extreme than the circumstances of Kyle Rittenhouse Thee armed teenager, who is there to defend a car dealership Canosa was content on it again. I think you may get a quite different outcome here. I think the post here in this case has been absolutely phenomenal. I mean she's she's, really repeatedly waited on about how absolutely unusual this was that if they were convinced, A felony was in progress, that's likely about assumptions they are making about Ahmad Armoury and what are those assumptions grounded

and I think it's a very smart tactic. emphasising over and over again like that, the citizens rest defence won't work if there is actually no felony here and probably doesn't work, because not telling him that that's what they're doing you're inside there. This is really about a mile day lynching, and that is the picture I think she is leaving for the job. so you'll? I think there might be a quite different responses. But that may have as much to do with the places Watch these two things unfolded army a place where racial violence has a story history on which is to say the commotion doesn't have a history of racial eyes.

Once by. I think it is thicker and more available and accessible to the jury and Georgia as part of their very recent past. From a legal standpoint, I'm wondering what can be done to prevent vigilante violence here, because it does seem is love. It was pointing out that you have this intersection of all of these open carry laws in all of these states with these self defense laws, which basically say It's ok to shoot if you feel threatened somehow so you have all these people walking around with guns brandishing weapons in crowds. People say I well, I thought that it was. I felt, threatened somehow now Amy I think that's exactly right. I mean it is a toxic brew of a proliferation of open carry laws. I may I think that is worth discussing

and twenty years ago we did not have as many jurisdictions that had open carry laws as we do now. So that is something that was that has proliferated over the course of the last twenty years. I'm in large part, due to the advocacy of the National Rifle Association, and we have. Them jutting up against the existing self defense laws, as well, as the self defense even add ons, the National Rifle Association has advocated quite successfully and lobbied for, and so these are stand, your ground, add ons. That basically say you don't have a duty to retreat or have a duty to back away it if you're being provoked, and way. Then you, there it's all you need and again The instructions in the current house case were really instructive If you will let me they had to look at this. The lens of seventeen year old Cow Rittenhouse. What would he have believed to be reasonable under circumstances, so any put yourself in the position. This person. When you do that, I think almost any one

I, like you know I don't know how I would respond, thereby maybe it's reasonable that this person thought that deadly forest was necessary in these circumstances. So it is both the fact of the existing self defense laws, coupled with the expansiveness of open carry laws? The add ons to the existing self defense at such then you layer on the citizens arrest statute in Georgia in some of these still exist on the books. And yes, of course, you have a vigilante culture and worth noting The proliferation of open carry laws is only likely to get worse than supreme. Court is currently considering a case right now. It's called nice serpent versus Berlin, and it's about New York's law that has let gives the state the discretion to deny or to grant certain individuals the opportunity to have a concealed carry permit on its very much like the concealed laws and many jurisdictions and based on oral arguments just last month. It seems like

the court- is amenable to striking down New York's lie in bolting those too more laws that basically, franchise. Second, amendment rights to the UN's degree- and there we are its also on So much of this is about like when, like a fish, to see or a myth that lead city laws meeting reality. That's what happens when Rittenhouse ends up in this circumstance. That's what happens when these self defense laws meet a real, complicated situation like this one, because it is a circumstance, Would you could just as easily argue that if they had gone gone away from Kyle Rittenhouse and shot Kyle Rittenhouse, they would have acting under self defence to so they have. We have built a framework in which who can shoot each other dead in the streets, and there is no I am committed like that is, that is incorrect. Real danger that is going to continue to be with us for a very long time Why me layer on not just that danger, but like that all of this has happened

in this sort of toxic stew, of racial division and just injustice, and then this country I mean yes Kyle written House- two white man by its hard to sort of divorce. What happened from the broader racial unrest that was unfolding in Canosa that night, I M M arbitrary I mean, once you see someone as the other once you see someone as a threat and you are emboldened an you- have these laws that allow you to be involved and to carry a weapon. I mean that to me is a really toxic toxic backs. The music is the absolute feet. The backdrop is of the racial violence in broader political violence that we ve seen over the last five years as well, that you can draw straight line from

January sixth, to what's going on here I mean Lovett. Recent polls show only a third of Republicans think that bringing a gun to protest is very inappropriate. A third of Republicans in a recent poll also said that quote: violence might be justified to save our country. It feels to me like the the kind of violence for tongue, but here is ultimately more of a political challenge then allow, Go on yeah, of course means more it's more than even a political challenge as a cultural challenge right. These are not. These are political views here. Also, cultural views are the views of the kind of society. Want to live in. It is now a mainstream republican view right that this is not fringes. The mainstream republican view, the cow Rittenhouse oughta be allowed to carry a weapon like this one, the one he carried through city streets and, at the same time, that police oughta be militarized and brutal in dealing with protest, because this sort of growing

solitary an impulse, basically is fully clock to the Republican Party and it does not accept the authority of the state, except when its being used by right wing agents against people it views as their opponents in some way and that it can never be used. It can never be fairly used against again. The right: that's why you see that cause? That's why you see these sort of the claim that every kind of rule against cover it. Any kind of covert safety is some kind of in a kind of tyranny. That's why every kind of climate rule or any kind of power. Verde amelioration is is socialism. That is why they don't accept the results of elections. It is It is about power and yeah, as more than a legal question, we will not like cholera. Cover many is, is convicted. He's no law

you're, just a kind of victorious hero he's a martyr to the cause. The same trend will continue the same effort to kind of feed more people into disorder. Vigilante process will continue. So, yes, it is a broad political problem of a kind of fishes. Dick rightwing move in this country taken hold of one of our key political parties as well as this is this the end of democracy, in this that sort of what I will I was giving a final question here, because just most basic level. It is basically what some of these right wing pundits in some of these politicians are saying. Is that it's ok to hurt people that you dont like now? It's ok to hurt your political enemies right that they're not just wrong, but that their dangerous and that their threat, and that there is such a threat that it's ok to cause them physical harm, but that that's that's what we're talking beyond beyond all the legal specifics of the case. That is what the

the post verdict, celebration of ever written house is is is really about, because the latter Pugsy like AL is liberals had all the details of the case and this in the loss at this, and it's like ye, but that's not what Europe Do you want to give him internships, and you're saying it's great. They killed some leftists, and I keep thinking about that. Turning point USA Conference, where the kid stands up: yeah and any says yeah? But when do we get to use the guns, there's this moment were Charlie Kirk is like oh well, don't say but it wasn't because, like don't say that cause it's wrong too, say I say that because I memorized the cameras, we're gonna, get in trouble and, like you right look, I don't they I mean I don't know whether it's the end of democracy or not, but I think that what those of us who want to defend democracy have to do is to call it out and talk about it for the emergency that is aimed at heart. I agree with I mean I, I teach kids

national lot, and you know at the beginning of the year. The first thing that happened was the January six insurrection and I was like This is a constitutional crisis like no, they did not stop the election and deny it did not stop the peaceful transfer power, but the fact that this could happen, like you might hear Are immigrants is stuff that did not happen in the United States is the stuff that they laughed other countries Four- and you know it's happening here in the United States and the idea of. citizens arming themselves to supplement the police some when the police are being too casual with protesters when the police are being fascist. Enough. I mean that's, not anything. I thought I would see in my lifetime in this country it feels like a really dark place. It feels like a really really dark moment Is this some there's a scene in the movie alien resurrection? This is the fourth

home in the serious. This is worth cigani. Weaver has come back from the dead to fight the aliens once again and resurrection, hence resurrection. and she's walking down? Spaceships hallway withdrawn Perlman egos, hey Ripley. I heard you like ran into these things before and you a guy I did and then ran provinces while man so like. What did you do and she says I died I really hoping that you were there we're getting to an anecdote that could be like well, I'm that we can leave it out high mode, think I willingly joining us, but no, no, I know you're right hurled. It is always a high note. I said I mean he's diary underrated as an actor tons of anarchy, the bees, those like he's amazed, he's amazing. You so good. I think what I like, what we are doing, with right? Is a right wing move devil use institutions when it is useful they will discuss. Then, when it is useful- and we must, we have to find a way to fight that kind of

ex. Obviously, we're never gonna burn the capital down we're not going to attack institutions in the same but I think it argues for have kind of a normal politic strategy and a one, that and one that is honest about how this is a a process taking place outside the bounds of our democracy and enemy from without, and I think one aspect of it that we have to stop doing is. I think we have to stop begging corporate interests and mainstream media that have such ACE personal financial cold. Mistaken not being honest about this problem. We have to stop begging, To let the world radicalized, then we have to stop begging them and this teaching them to see it the same way and we need to come up with strategies ourself from outside. these institutions to attack the propaganda apparatus, to attack the way in which Facebook and Fox NEWS kind of working comments concert to radical

as people on a grand scale, and we have to start being honest about just how big a threat it is, and I think right now the truth is we aren't right. We just aren't but yet no agreed that. But I think that fundamentally, the only option here is to persuade a majority of our fellow Citizens to defeat this kind of politics at the ballot box. That's it! That's all that really is an issue that can be like that's really frustrating to hear examines like Why does voted and then I voted in this happen, but it's like you can protest. Also is incredibly important protest voting but like when you talk about strategy. What are their strategy is there? Besides, like we can oh, but we have to persuade these corporations not to do that. We have to persuade these people not to do this, like that, that sort of that's what what comes down to if we want to live in a democracy. Other thing I think is worth talking about. I mean what we say touched on it, but like so much of this grievance politics is at its root. I think about racial grievance

I'm losing my country like gaelic redistribution, I'm losing my country and so on, Folks, who are most aggrieved at a sort of signing on to this in a republican conservative agenda do so. I guess what looks like intra racial solidarity, but it is a kind of solidarity that comes at the expense of socio economic solidarity, because what they're doing doesn't actually benefit those who are socio economically hurting that the people who actually have real economic grievance and my former Bert A colleague in Haiti Lopez has written this terrific book. Dog was all politics where growth it's fantastic. I think it really lays this out. Like I mean this, is the ratio dog whistling is what is dividing the sort of class solidarity that could actually create a more progressive coalition and it is being divided because

kind of racial ized grievance that they are capitalizing on again and again? I think it is the sort of opportunistic collecting of certain constituencies. That John was talking about willingness in points to the end. The only way out of that is too is to call out. Yet a dog whistle to reign over and over to call out the strategy of those who are trying to divide people by race in class and actors to why was kind. Written housing Canosa not to defend that card. Your worship, but because the idea that there were minorities and Canosa who were acting out. We're going to loot and going to write and there's gonna, be property destruction! That's why he was there. Why was hard arbours stop. Why was this cuttenclips citizens arrest undertaken because he was a black man who looked like he wasn't supposed to be where he was We have a lot of work to do well and on that note, Melissa, Mary, I'm sorry, my alien resurrection story didn't land.

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all right before we go? We should note that one other much talked about events took place on Friday. President Joe Biden temporarily transfer power to vice President calmly Harris for eighty five minutes, while he was under anesthesia for routine colonoscopy or as the guy her headline red first woman, president nation, celebrates President Kabila Harris as Joe Biden gets Ass programme and, of course, here's how far news handled it for eighty five minutes today, while doctors examined the Biden Pipeline, Comma Harris officially became the first female president of the United States Four Sienna was like an eighty five minute thrill up their leg for one hour and twenty five minutes. Today, Comma Harris became the first woman with presidential power. Is the person

and to receive the presidential power so sewing history making day also here at the White House as a woman, do feel any sort of pride at all about this glass ceiling being shattered. Even though was shattered because the president was having his calling jack. I like that that was a clip within a clip first of all, let me how unusual is this transfer power than usual? having a couple times, George Bush George, under when, under fur colonoscopy, savoured units part of the power under section three of the twenty fifth amendment? You can send a letter to the speaker in the Senate, pretend temporarily transfer power whenever the procedures done said another letter transfer back. Did you guys know that Trump, reportedly lied about getting a colonoscopy and refuse to transfer power to pence at the secret trip to Walter. Reed that I was freaking out about is all press secretary says, there's a colonoscopy, but he did want to get made fun of

tvs wouldn't tell anybody who has just something we should always keep in mind effect is outcomes. Razor for Trump is like he just doesn't want to get mocked right. Like he's not sometimes it's just stupid, fucking explanation either. As so many conspiracies letter thought he was burning. The last copy of the papers on their yeah, exactly eternity just beginning to Colin ask rain and wanted to lie about it because he didn't want to be embarrassed which gives us disease a fuckin, thin skinned men when drawback is gone, ass could be they found to polyps and secretary of state. Might Pompey Yo Have I ever more having allowed listening to the Johannesburg has really been roads. Are these loving that gesture? I one? Why are you ready? Here's manages Joe Biden, thus anthrax and much even less as doctors run, train Oh wow oh wow lot lot ahead. based bombs in the studio you're. So did you know that

over Cleveland got surgery in eighteen, ninety three to remove a tumor, and he did it secretly on a friend's yacht and kept it from press now, when I did know yet so a bunch of people on twitter saying. What are you talking about? What about Edith Wilson, which we should now because we have co, produced up high, cast a series. called Edith gas terminals in is Wilson, usurped the powers of the presidency, but we have never legal act in at the ready it away out of illegal work, which is worth something. That's why we're that's? Why we're celebrated? I didn't itself. I was it like what is for a moment and like. I think that calmly Harris once a historic moment, that's a big different than the eighty five men. The Balkans typical recognises as she shut yeah, you try having a finger in your, but without seeding some authority. You don't mean some awesome, oh my god. What the

Nonetheless, the Ivan couple lessons your one people on tv always want to make the moment they are experiencing on tv, see more important than it was to trumpet Missy revealed a lot of holes in our system, and one is why a little at all, if a boy one, is how little we demand from them in terms of transparency around their health threat of new member doktor born seen the trunk doctor At the letter asking who is the healthiest individual? I think it's ever elected we! These are. Some of these data are just some of the holes me to shine a light down our right to exist, what's going on Tommy you did in. I did also clean bill of health for button, which is something that seems important. I have to say actually the doktor report entered

question I had, which is why he's constantly clearing his rudeness? Someone you two struggles with this is well. I learned something he apparently as ass reflux, which means he's. I constantly coughing, but it's pretty innocent explanation will bear you gotta get some. Perhaps it is not an end, conspiracies left and right, but the right a rare moment, Grover Cleveland Love, it's just make jokes, making jokes and returning jokes about butts. others but stuff it's but stuff. Well, that's all the time we have for today is podcast time limit, but am stop in it here good. Beg you to Melissa Murray for joining us, and I d and I will be will be on Thursday for Thanksgiving Mailbag is because some secretary of state might compared with just like up his ass, so sent us here since you can send it to us on Twitter on Instagram cynicism. Question

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