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just got as ever. Our comes out crooked, that separated outcomes eyes, see r o o k e zipper, Cretur smartest way to higher. I welcome the pod, save America, I'm John forever on John Love. It I'm Tommy Retort Undertake, show Tommy Interviews, Pulitzer Prize Winning Journalists, David, fair and hold from the Washington Post about the criminal enterprise, known as the trumpet

and out he's a great reporter and he's very funny, and that was John second take a single word bulletin browser then decide what the latest on trumps family separation policy in his continuing attempts to obstruct justice you're on tour this week at exciting love back from vacation? I am the area. Did we back here in the barrel screens a heap has back on the morning John with you guys here in the studio sure anyway, we will be in it later on Thursday evening during show, where else, with Stacy Abrams will be joining US future. Governor says: you're governors, Daisy Abrams in Friday will be unnatural for two shows pod save than lover, leaving adding there's some tickets are. Thus those limits. Second attempt to say on Sunday night will be endured. North Carolina with Governor Roy Cooper Reverend, William Barber, also Dan Pfeiffers Book out the weight is over. Yes, we still can it's on.

bookshelves now to people get things you have occurred. We certainly with others pre really stuck. I feel it. They release ITALY. Twenty seventeen note today is the day I haven't bought dance book. What do you mean? Yes, you still can by the book and you can listen to an exclusive audio exert a full chapter on Craig conversations. where love it interviews down at the beginning of the critical. Yes, I talked to Dan Pfeiffer. Finally, he and I had a one on one: that's actually the first one one conversation we ve ever had dead. I have never seen a meal together, one on one, that's what I'm trying to get on the books, but sour took out his baby, the baby, but he never been for a long time Anyway, it was really good conversation. You should check it out because I think Dan is one of the smartest human beings tongue up all the x Ray Amerika, or we do here. We, we Hocker friends, books, in matters of failing in metal, we and their great books should rhythm. Ok, let's get to the news. It is awful news all around

yeah, we're punchy cause were angry here, so I want to start by talking about what is humanitarian crisis. I saw tweet from Senator Chris Murphy today that I thought pretty accurately sums up the situation. the border he said quote, the President of the United States has stolen two thousand little children from their parents and locked them in cages to be released. Only of Congress gives him money to build a wall with Mexico. That tweet is not really an exaggerated, pretty much what's happening. At this point, I don't think it's too much to say that doll trumps Administration is committing human rights abuses at the border? This is from a statement released by the- U N High Commissioner for human rights about our country, that any state would seek to deter parents painful Abuse on children is unconscionable. He then quoted from the American Academy of Pediatrics, which calls the practice of forcing parents to part with their young children quote: government sanction child abuse, which may cause quote irreparable harm to me. The way

the previous moments of the term administration were muslim, Ban and Charlottesville. I think this is a new low, not just in the Trump administration, but that it in our country's history, its up their meat it's getting up there with japanese interment from sliding there is. He decided to kick around. So U S this members who happened to be transgender for absolutely no reason of it. It speaks to his tendency. Clarifying people that are treated the worst by our society and then click the shit out of them. For no reason is, and it's you know usually invite the budgets of the worst actions Donald Trump and into worse thinks he's ever sat alone. The worst things has ever done, but usually the worst things ever done or are previewed rather worse, things ever said so, May we had about who he was to his animals, right think it that trumpets answered that too.

We have analysed them. There's that one. There is the time he said. Maybe he would have supported japanese interment yeah there's the touch their he's had said before he wants to cut down on asylum seekers. To this country should hold, Donald Trump has has told us many times exactly who he is what I believe and what he wants to do seriously, not literally right about to say still the most frustrating thing ever reported turns out. We should take them literally an seriously so proper look. I been doing some outstanding reporting about. This actually got a recording of what it is like in some of these detention centres, and we thought we'd play a quick look of it for you because it

help you understand, what's going on better than anything we could set, so they have been apprehending about two hundred and fifty children per day. They said that they are trying to get up to thirty thousand by the end of summer. They think they can get the border by border patrols portal agent. Actually, who said what we are trying to build? Two, a hundred per cent of prosecutes and of everybody that is eligible were not there yet. But that's our intent were what's your reaction, yes, reading. The news today really is our last couple this so the one thing that that But I was thinking as I saw it- is Donald Trump. Could not

We have done this at the very start of his administration. It took a year A half of grinding down republican politics and grinding down the media and then grinding down the last vestiges of normal saying, humane politics from the republican base at Watches Fox and that likes him that you had to work your way to this moment to build a coalition of people willing to either. I support this or be look past. It Tom Ridge, music, just its unspeakably cruel. It is deliberate, mean his tis team is on the record, saying that they are punishing children as a deterrent to prevent parents from sending their kids or the border or from some are using. Kids is a means to exploit loophole to get asylum when they might otherwise not have gotten asylum, but like

set. Taking away the Mai wildly emotional reaction, which was, however, responded to most of the foot footage I watched struck by how fundamentally stupid in flood. The policy is, if you're fleeing, amiss, thirteen or you knows actually seeking asylum, which the trumpet misery says I'm a over on the country someday. This policy will not deter you were really worried, but human trafficking or smugglers. Why are we punishing the victims potentially of human trafficking or smugglers? it is. It is so vindictive it is so ill considered. It is so stupid. Dat. It's hard to fathom how we got here and then to watch his team. Not just lie about it. A few times Peter Lee enthusiasts Stick Lee angry. denounced the news media enlightened? We are not stupid. I'm not going to sit here and listen to Secretary Nielsen. Pretend doesn't know what's going on for starters, bs

John Kelly. The chief of staff, Stephen Miller, is on the record your times in Jeff sessions are all out their explaining exactly exactly what they are trying to do, but, like These people are insulting our intelligence they are trying to play games, and this is may be the first time in a long while, where there is absolutely roadblock news coverage of the lie itself of the cruelty of what they're doing and his spin is not working and that's the a glimmer of hope. I am seeing in this horrendous time. We ve said this before we talk about this issue on the pod, but like immigration, and especially but crossings at the border is an incredibly complicated problem, given it was incredibly difficult problems deal with in the Bush administration in the above ministration, we in the above restriction, we dealt with unaccompanied minors. These are sixteen seventeen eighteen, eighteen year olds were come across the border themselves, an influx, and there wasn't-

of beds there, one enough places too to house them all they couldn't. They were trying to connect them with families with they couldn't, and so they are in some horrible conditions right and in every mission is to do with that that what the trumpet ministries, trying to say. This is more of the same, and you just didn't cover. That is false. It is false. Every puzzle, previously, the Justice Department, rarely targeted families for prosecution. This is from us. Instead, what happened was authorities rooted migrant families who come over it immigration courts and they were released from detention. After three weeks, people with credible fear of being returned to their native countries were often sent to immigration court as well, and some in some people now who are trying to initiate asylum, it claims at ports of entry or being turned away. So what they have decided to do now is instead of saying: ok, when a family comes

and especially with the family seeking asylum, will send them to an immigration court. They can deal with them, no be together until we figure out whether to deport them or to keep them here now, they're saying every single border crossing has to be criminally prosecuted and because its criminally prosecuted, that's when they're saying they're gonna take the chair. we ve. That's. What's different in that has never happened before and it's out we're not gonna. Do anything to anyone who has broken the law, we're just gonna, make it impossible to seek asylum without breaking the law that, we are going to declare simply the act of crossing illegally as in half of a violation to justify separating children from parents. They are doing this because they believe that is a greater injustice to allow people into the country illegally, some of whom may not be valid asylum seekers than it is to rip children away from parents and how's them in cages, because they have downplay the humanity of these people. The end

have created in their minds and in their policy apparatus in their politics, a crisis in immigration that doesn't exist. We have an immigration problem. There is a problem at the border. There is a problem this all there's a problem. Congress has failed to solve for a very long time, but look at America today, look at all the ways in which America's threatened and look at all the ways in which we have to fix things in our economy and fix things that are broken to make sure that that that our country does well. Look at that and say this is this: is the crisis focus on and we care about it. So much were willing to visit hell on children is completely and totally unjustified and every once in a while. They give up the game. You know like Trump this morning said the. U S will not be a migrant camp and it will not be a refugee holding facility. That is like he's, had a lot Crazy. Tweets are less couple days that statement that he made today was maybe one of the worse, because that is directly from Fucking Stephen Miller and all those assholes. So, what's up

use our agenda this time, the lies and the administration of theirs. Basically, two conflicting explanations for all this. On one hand you ve got sessions, John Kelly, Santa the fascist, Stephen Miller out their owning the policy- saying it's a new policy, so breaking the policy just that announced it on May seventh, with great fanfare, with the guy that runs ice, whose fuckin criminal and in and they said that it was gonna, be new policy, and then you have Donald Trump and when security secretary, clear signals, Nielson and some of the other lackeys, like your Kellyanne Conway's and your other and Sarah Huckabee Sanders and Aunt Ben Hogan, Gidley and all them we're all saying. No, no, no, not a new policy, it's the law that is making us do that What how are they getting away with the two conflicting explanations and why can't trump and the other ones just on the the Good NEWS is they're not getting away.

That's right! You ve sector needles in tweeting. We do not have a policy of separating families at the border period. First of all, that is actually the echo ECHO Sean Spicer's most. ridiculous mocked. That is a great way to approach this. Second, it's it's again. It's like I'm trying it this or well and bullshitted saying that we don't have a muslim ban, we're just banding all immigration of people from muslim countries? You don't get to pretend or shirk responsibility for the practical implant impact implications of your paws this is especially when, as you mentioned, John Kelly was bragging about the deterrent effect of these policies, Stephen Miller, It's taken credit and the New York Times for pushing trump on these choices, so I'm I'm glad to see that the press corps has shifted. story into a place we all wanted to get, which is the lie. is the lead and His claims are coming. Second, I do think,

today's white has briefing was deeply frustrating because there are these on the record. Contradictory statements from senior ministries fisheries and no just read those back to meals, then that how do you explain that they her do. This performance that was deeply for area watched. There's a clip. That's been going around Wolf. Sir John Kelly when he was the head of homeland Security and well set. Are you considering a new policy that would separate children and their parents at the border, and then Kelly certainly goes. I I'm actually proposing Zactly that in order to bring the travelling around meant, what that means is that a term policy it saying we're saying to people who want to, but his country many them, because their fleeing violence do not come here or we will take your children away indefinitely and it's that that's the policy, and it is again because they view the heart of undocumented people trying to get here as greater than the moral harm their inflicting on these kids? I do you.

Divide these two responses, the sort of contradictory responses into the two camps, their people, who care what the policy is, but not what it looks like, and people who care with the policy looks like and not what is one of them. One of the camps are the Stephen Miller's who are ideologically instant nationalist and who believe right and it doesn't matter when anyone says what damage they do and the other half or the Craven well I can we convince Heiress Anders who just want to get out of this thing and I dont really focus that much of what actually going on simply how they can sell it and how they can get away with it. Trump is in both camps, depend and are you catch him depending on the mood depending what was on his tv here? which has been the case with him, an immigration from the very beginning. This is how he wasn't Dhaka with the dreamers is how you know four first, he feels really bad for the dreamers and then it's like you, I'm not going to do anything. I didn't we're just send this like the meat, except for I really wish in the press briefing today. There are more couple reporters who knew immigration policy and pressed me Nielson and I needed something. I got some annoying defensive labours.

Answer me not on Twitter Buzz, you like that that they didn't do a good job well, who did a good job. You a couple people that rose to the moment the whole room again There was a little bit of collective action if one person has asked a simple based: how did not play for Sarah Sanders. The audio of the children crying been out. There were listening to it in the briefing room play it for her. I think a libyan as he said she played in the back, but I don't know if anyone or anything, but against the questions were all over the place. There is no coordination with her I mean I'm not saying that the press a magic key, they will unlock them. They're they're capitulation, no make it harder for them push them harder, hard questions to answer them easy ones. I have some experience with this in the lot of the questions were pretty easy to, but I will I will say over all the media overall has done a fantastic job, keeping this in the who's in the headlines. I, when we are preparing for the pod last night, I was like looking through what news stories you talk about. It was only this. This was everywhere mean this. This has now broken through in a way that the

Muslim ban did that the aid a repeal fight, did Charlottesville did I mean this is now up there with all that I guess you know is a good thing, but I think at some point the members of this administration and Republican, the Congress specially, which will get to have to be confronted with these stories of these children. I mean, like congressmen, walking Castro, said he's on eighth. My eight month old has been separated from his family for over a month a month, What's there, there is probably also reported that there was up there's one man who is it one of the shelters in Arizona he quit in protest, and he said during his time there Walter children were running away, screaming thrown furniture and he saw one attempt suicide. So there's some polling. Today is actually number opposed by now they're going to Px Cbs. Although basically Americans oppose this policy, sixty six twenty seven percent- those, appear that's basically, the same number and all the pole overwhelming over one

Democrats, ninety one, seven independence, sixty eight twenty four Republicans in just about every Paul support the policy now emergency, smaller thousand of fifty five thirty five in Quinnapin in its around that some of the other pulls out you guys are about the pull? I was actually a little surprised that that many Republicans oppose it I would know I'll, be honest. I was surprised to hear popular months against economy by surprise. I am not pretend that I wasn't a little naive. Yet again, you know, I wonder I a little bit six back in a week, If that will shift over time as they see these images, they hear this audio and video spelled out because you have faith leaders. Do you Franklin, Graham than our normally just up Trump kiss ass, just that evangelical average alkalies Chippendale, Madame exactly you can imagine, there does seem to be a year- will hurt Carson from Texas, who is one of the most vulnerable members. Cars upper reelection came out against it, so you're, seeing

cracks in the unanimous republican opinion, but there still this issue of these guys, fearing primaries, more than they fear general action. Given. I would bet I wish someone do this ball if you're a register, republican in your news? Media diet does not only involve fox news if you're, even in the Wall Street Journal surer than your times for catching CBS or ABC. I bet you oppose this policy. Could you see those images but Look at Fuckin Fox news. Already there already on board with defending this president over this already thought from Foxen friends to every the programme on that network. They are just lying just like the administration and covering the whole thing, yet it so bad that people are doctoring photos of these children right to make them look more menacing. Yet Drudge had a picture up early when they under the headline about the story where they had a bunch of kids. They were like holding toy guns at school hooligans because they want that They wanted to shout and then they even drudge. It was too bad for drugs, let's take down after cobblers. Yet when I say that if the Members it was, it was for is not surprising, but we a to fringe like

over the idea that what the Republican Party is is a conservative party with a nationalist French. That is not what these pulling numbers tell us now. That is now a trump tells us that is not. What Fox tells us is a nationalist party with a conservative fringe and the conservatives who have the platforms in the voices and that you, the ones. What best you, tended is otherwise, but when you said that you look at what Trump is doing and look at what fifty five percent of this party is going to support, it tells you bitch is that damage foxes doing on a daily basis, the incredible damage it is doing to this country. single day than could get people to this point, and it is alarming, and it should tell you just how far this could go. Let's talk about what can be done about this in the Senate, Diane sign has introduced a bill that would make it illegal to separate family members were entering the country every single democratic on board, even Joe Mansion, even Doug Jones, even all the save all the ones were up and eighteen are all on board. Imagine tat a second gotta. Obviously

but not a single Republican supports it. Not a single Republican in the Senate supports this, Susan Collins that it's too broad and would prevent arrests of people who commit crimes within a hundred miles of the border which seems insane or if she has a problem with it, propose something propose some fix if you want she hasn't done that in the house. There's one bill that claims to address family separation actually doesn't. It merely would give the men of homeland security, the option of not separating children from their parents, which they already have so question is: what are the chances of something passing? What can we do here? Look my view. Is yeah. It seems unlikely that Republicans are going to get on board, but, as you were, the same Tommy like we'll her there's a couple republican House met right now. There are speaking out against it in the Senate, fucking TED crews just said he.

the sponsor legislation to do something about it, because it clearly saw better Rourke, exact leader Marty to the border over the way that our work is already moving. Terrorists in the left here he's his plane, Cynthia necks into his eye intricate a book I do think there is some changes. I mean we're we're seeing republican opposition that we haven't seen since, like the muslim ban. Since the early trump days you ve got Laura Bush Road and a Ed Mitt, Romney said something about your birch. Like Franklin, Graham, you said so, we are seeing like sort of in a unique array of people aligned against it is box, would fox in bright part of Come the same thing. Basically, I guess they might have been for a long time, Fox, didn't label. a section on its website, black crime, but certainly was the focus of a lot of their reporting. What does a very infamous races, proper thing, but you do have those break. Our journalists are out there defending the policy set.

these aren't cages AEGIS, woven meddling, lodgers thought in case I its metal machine, the budget that the degree to which the far far right is failing to defend this, I think, does help you understand how perilous the wet ass his position is on this and that's. Why do you think like opposition to this is incredibly important to voice our opposition. To this call, your members of Congress, we flood Congress Protest Congress, I think there are quite a few republicans, particularly all the Republicans in the house, the tried to sign to get the discharge procedure. petition going for immigration, all the motto Republicans in all these districts that are afraid of losing their elegant on board. With a you know, they're gonna get This point where, just like an with Dhaka, you have people, say who say there against it? But when amidst the road. Are you actually gonna vote for a bill that stops the policy right So I think you ve seen this intellectual response from certain parts of the Republican Party, then SAS

rich Lowery national view, there's something obvious to be say: riches stop this right. This is morally and they say that part- then they say but and the but to me is what tells you about this sort of dynamic between Trump and Republicans. In Congress, Beak as it is like intellectual zamboni that follows trump around, so concerned actual they say it's wrong, but also the consequence of a broken Congress lacks enforcement people taking advantage of the system, and it gives then Republicans in Congress like marker like Paul Ryan to claim they want. This is stopped. And to claim that children should be used as hostages, while at this time saying and therefore, let's pass this legislation, because these children- judges must be freed, so there they terms have children should not be used as hostages, but is only one thing we can do give the hostage because their money so that we can get these kids back so Marguerite, He says we should address the issue surrounding the TED crews, same thing with them ass humans using called like. I don't want to see this happen. Therefore, we should pass comprehensive immigration,

what fantasy land or you living in that that, after You tried to get him to help the dreamers by paying for his while he couldn't show compassion, then he responded by putting kids in cages using now the time for he's gonna to find that he's gonna go along with your compassionate other half of this problem, because they're are always bitching they're, always the victim of their own choices, their own policies. There is the aggrieved party, like even Nielsen today, like she acted like a huge. Spare minute, please for the poor diet has employed around a fairly didn't. We, like you, I mean. Let us also be clear about what the ransom is here it is. They want a package that, when they say immigration reform what they want. What Stephen Miller wants what Donald Trump Bonds, which on clay once our deep deep cuts in legal immigration down to nineteen twenty levels- immigration, this country? That's what what we not talking about a package that protects the dreamers, beef sub border security little bit, helps the family separation and call it a day that's over there talking about they want

cut so immigration and he wants his fucking wall, and that is what they want and so and in his interesting to that. Even they also call this leverage leverage over who right because republicans- are on board for Donald Trump right wing. Reiterate restriction. Is immigration agenda pay so it leverage over over Democrats to come along with that which they would never do now. There's an Therefore, the leverage over people who don't want to see children in cages away from their parents would be what it is, and this sort of this. You don't wanna, see then been agree with my policy, which is why I think you know we should hold Republicans, including the Republicans who claim their against this, to account the ways in which the participating in this kind of good, cop, bad cop think it's not good cop, bad cop. It's like crazy. Caught monster cop, because is pretending to and care of the kids rob running cages. He's not doing this for leverages what we saw in Dhaka, so we saw climate we saw on ran it's it's

once destruction isn't, isn't the leverage it's the goal while and also once he decided that he cannot be shamed by anything happens, then all he has is his power to do whatever. He feels the check on that power is a fear or a shame that you're going to be kicked out of office or that you're going. publicly embarrass or the people are gonna like you or genuine anything or human up, what you two younger than, but he clearly does not show either, and so, therefore he is going to you, his power to do whatever he feels he needs to and wants to until he's out of office in the so called leaders and Republican Party, like Paul Ryan, have forgotten about what chain feels like or they prefer to ignore it? Like he'd ducked questions, that's where I live or they lie. I am sure that questions about this there they're scared to stand up and they ve been conditioned like a puppy that was beaten do not speak out or do anything or ever stand up them. They ve. Let this happen to themselves and that an

The mental problem in immigration is not that there weren't enough children in cages to get some ether congress. The problem was the vendor. Graham of something evil enough to get through the house does not overlap with then diagram circle of something compassion enough to get through the Senate been trailer green sends for everything for the last ten years later glance. Basically almost brothers the same, but you know we are, there was migrants have been in favour of all the things. Donald Trump claims to be in favour of accept these restrictions on legal immigration. Had they they gave him the wall. They gave him what he wanted just to help the dreamers any said no and responded with this. That tells us everything. We need to know that how good faith these negotiations are in case. We didn't think this was entirely manufactured crisis by the Trump Administration sources now tell politico. The trumps AIDS are planning additional immigration crackdowns before the mid terms that, when a keep this going, they want to tighten rules on site. visas and exchange programmes. They want to on agricultural workers on everything one of their does point about this, because I think it goes to just how just the way that racism infuses this

they have a different view on how much immigration there that there should be in this country and its racially motivated it's this nationalism right but there's a lot of ways. You know about convincing people not to come to America. One of them would be to go after business that infringe employs people who are under committed- you never see that as part of the pain is always visited on the people who are desperate to come here for safety. First for fur, for relief for four for jobs, The pain is always visited on the people. We told for a generation to come here because there are jobs for them as a reason for the little little real time. Good NEWS, John Mccain, just tweeted that the should should rescind the policy now so he stopped short of co sponsoring the bill. That would do exactly that. But it's good to see you I must say that I look at you know if, if Susan Collins, John Mccain, if they don't like some by day and fine sends bill. If they think it's going to be to bribe something then propose, I'm kind of over a call narrow it down. You know like that. There is a way to do this. We had we had this policy

It was working just fine until Jeff sessions announced the new policy and may so. Why don't you today, once again, its also just not even now only Democrats are acting in good faith. Understanding you're saying, like I, don't know, fucking TED crews on the blower combined. The fine seen thing in the cruising I give a shit. Do something do something Democrats will do something we were we gave in to the fucking wall. We will pay for the wall just just like many Tammany dogs. Will you not to guess for an answer work. It's the same thing is the same thing that we dealt with, but the dreamers that exactly the sites at once. He said no to that after saying yes to it many times and want Paul Ryan and we call on the rest of the fuckers, went along with it. That was the message on what what they're going to do migration, what they're going to do is they're using it as a campaign issue to stir up native and racism from now until November, because that's their only chance of and if you think, from wants to solve this problem and get it off the front pages. You ve not been any to that's right, so we have to

If you want to help we ve talked about this before you can turn to them all It's a great organizations that are helping to fund legal basis. and help try to reunite some of these families with children. You gotta, go dot, crooked dot, com, slash families and you can give their. We have this up on her sight. Now it's go dot crooked dot, com, such families. You should also call european Senator or House member gave friends to call theirs and tell them to sponsor the keep families together, act that is defined sign That's the only legislative vehicle right now back a change and protests mark your calendars. Four June thirtieth folks. It move on a bunch of other organisations, including us, we're all supporting some very big protests be in- and we hope, nationwide and citys around the country so we're gonna be organizing for that. So we can keep fighting this and will keep talking

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to all the details of what he did and and vote in December that none of us by wet, but I one of my favorite sentences has been uttered in the past two years was set at manner for it and it was when, when metaphors as well, who just let him stay home, but but he won't contact anybody who talked anybody, and I and the judge, and the judge said this is a middle school, I'm not taking away hisself, and that just made me so happy and I think we deserve to feel a little what's. The word happy to try and more Frida this happy that were german leader anyway, of course, because a complaint on twitter about it really Giuliani, of course, went out and sorry dangling pardons to the first rapporteur. He could talk due to send a message, Meanwhile, the Washington Post reported this weaken that another person close to two brothers stone neglected to tell investigators about contacts with the russian official who promised heard on Hillary Clinton during the presidential campaign. Why did he I accept the dirt. They were

two million dollars for, and he said the trump doesn't pay for anything which is revealing. Itself was then processed and potentially its restatement wizard. Somebody who had access to these Google calendar, as that would just filling spaces with russian meetings there, I have never got. There are so many meetings with Russians and there are so many meetings of Russians that these people forgot and for him to claim that he actually forgot this mean you'd, Forget a russian guy offering you to do me, two million dollar for all bunch of dirt and noted that it is impossible to forget that he's a Tuesday's at twenty. Since he was a busier tasks, we have what join the club asshole, like maybe remember, gets jogged when there's a massive investigation into what's happening through it all of Congress in Bali in all this news broke during the week where there are several stories are reported that Michael Cohen, is getting closer to cooperating and just thrown in

Our recently changed up as legal team changed peaceably guilty and apparently he's feeling alienated by the distance trouble keeping days just you know what it's just a guy with the couple taxi medallions and nothing left to lose dared is as what is it going to take to get Paul. Men are forced to flee, I am no legal expert, but I have never heard the situation where a prosecutor has leaned on someone as much as Bob Mauler has leaned on parliamentary he's got the guy in jail. He's got like forty and, I've been on the guy like you have to be ready for the answer being to be. He doesn't have anything to tell him the other could be. You know that, we like I'm very sick of getting chastised by various people on Twitter. That trial trumps, not gonna, get frog marched down to the point. then, and yadda yadda like clearly people on his campaign did some terrible things. I think it is inconceivable that Don Junior took em

a meeting with a bunch of Russians interim Tower and in Sprint to tell daddy about it, but that is the most frustrating scenario network. I mean it's that I guess that's possibility. It seems very unlikely at this point. Well, let me say this We don't know what manner has to offer about Donald trump himself. It does certainly seem like manna. Forts crimes are now our beyond not register, is a foreign lobbying us, as we would like to get seemed like. If there was collusion between the trunk campaign and Russians, then nexus of that was Paul, man gates his deputy stone. They were talking with Russia's now. We know that, but that he was talking of Russians about some the dirt on Hillary Clinton, some of the hacked emails that metaphors having a discussion that gates with having these discussions. So we clearly no seven

not giving up the other option is of course, he's more scared of the Russians. Then he took a look at you. I just you know. There's too, asking of manner for crimes. One is just the you, no less see financial egg is my natural fraud. Environment policy run a money laundering white collar, classical glencore, those whether that all those personal time, crimes, rational finer and their. Those are legion, and those seem to me, though, seem to be something that there's a ton of evidence about now what we don't know very much about what are the campaign I'm crimes, we don't actually know a lot, but evidence of absence of evidence that evidence it happens. We don't really know, but I think what we say right now is that the amount of crime that manner for it has been charged with his asymptotically approaching infinite crime. You know he is that he is approaching. Theirs like what oh you're adding more than my crime list. Ok, I've indicted so many times, I think about

but much you would remember, being indicted in federal court now imagine having it happened so many times you can't remember so so, but this we have to assume that manner for is is just as he hits infinite crime infinite liability, what are the reasons he is it for being? Well, one is that counting on Donald Trump Depart in him and counting on the fact that he will ultimately not pay for those crimes. So, to me this one of the most important things can happen. Is New York state can charge him with crimes that a trump can pardon for, and I think everyone who and Virginia cases when that happens. All of a sudden, I think we will, I think manner for its smile- will, will lower a bet, he's walking into court. So it's also patients. The other thing that worth noting, and I talked with David Ferrie about this. A bunch is time, there has been smoke. We have got into a fire eventually David I two years chasing down up portrait of Donald Trump at a golf course in that in, like incredible work,

to the New York attorney General filing a civil suit that accused him and his family of serious raw. doing and they have tools to get documents, emails and records that no journalist could get. So you know we're just sit and wait for yes, my Donald Trump campaign were ache, tune, villain and attract coat. You would turn over and like rubies would come out and a safe would come out and a grand piano would fall out. You know you know I mean I know magazine, and you know what I mean. I I think I got it. You get you out you. You did a hand motion. So now you are doubling of upside down. I imagined like a combo of five or six spy guy and lack of inspector gadget is outward. What's in your head, I'm looking more like a big boy from from from details. by acting on anyway, So we re, while we're waiting for these people to flee

people are not waiting. There continue to try to obstruct just as in any way they can other. Now using a new inspector general report about the FBI's investigation of Hillary Clinton emails to lie, about how trumps been exonerated and separate investigation into Russia So the idea report this came only last week. You couldn't get a chance to talk about it. It's very critical of several p. Including the most righteous James Coney, whose Bay we accused of being insubordinate and how we handle the Clinton email investigation when he directed the FBI. Noticed that MR edgy good kind, gotta, magnifying glass gutless cover fingerprints at the scene of the crime of a couple of tweed someone. I will coordinate the we got it it finds. There is no evidence that the decision to clear Clinton was polluted by political bias and it doesn't say anything about Robert Mothers, to, of course, this doesn't matter to trumpet his legal team trumpet

and friends. On Friday, in said, people at the F B, I were plotting against his election. He hasn't tweeting about the behaviour of two FBI agents involved in the Clinton and destination, the ones that were sexting each other the whole time, man, the ITA, never could. Anyone have imagine if you would have told them just how much blow back they were gone for those sex. They would have never imagined it man, the citizens residing relax, it's just like Martineau Molly's, a douche like I hate, Donald Trump marshmallows adduced. I dont like Eric holder, giving rise me crazy. I guess you got. You have just a different version of foreplay, oh boy. but they all the Republicans notches Trump Fox NEWS and again as use this we as conservatives.

we're gonna vacation, so many think pieces love it from some of our favorite. Never programme could never trump conservatives about how this idea report shows that you know the two FBI agents single handedly year out to bring down the term presidency, which they did a pretty shitty job, because he's sitting there in office where nothing that never trump there's nothing. There are soaring clique of the never tempers like more than sank. The liberals have lost their mind. These trump people, lesser mine, there's only us right- is only us that the right wing, but not Trump wing of the conservative media, ECHO chamber did by a certain class of billionaire. Just that is our tax cuts, likely righteous I absolutely understand how any right minded person could read those texts and think, while those people are biased against Donald Trump, Leap to them. Having done something or taken some action to harm Donald Trump campaign is. Is there's nothing? evidence of that actually undercut by the facts, which is that they didn't leak that there was. This man is a massive ongoing investigation.

put down. There are plans and text, but on people have opinions all the time and they are allowed, even if they work of the FBI that yes executive, our allowed, but also what is deeply fostering about. This is right. Before the campaign ended, Rudy Giuliani was going on tv and telling us how his buddies and the FBI were saying that I hated Hillary Clinton. They want to go after her there's comments in the same IP report, where you have people looking at how it's their duty to keep going you're. Hillary Clinton, like someone overheard this discussion, like a bunch of The FBI is mostly white, guys very law enforcement focus, that is a very republic in innovation, the notion there in the tank for Hillary Clinton, someone that we see they didn't like very much is ludicrous, and yet again we have to take them. arguments on their face in debate them for weeks and weeks and weeks when David Ferrie holds reporting is leading to. Like actual me, you're legal action being taken against present means only Giuliani was hiding this. He said all this right before we open an umbrella, put out a bunch of fog.

and quite his way out of the fuckin studio cause he's. The penguin And again I ll say we were just say: other media has in a great job of covering the family separation policy. The idea report was not their finest moment, because this is a report that big We said Jim Commie acted wrongly in, going out to announce the result of the current investigation himself. Instead of letting Loretta Wench, do it and then fucked up again and when he announced the Anthony Wiener laptop thing right before the election and so things that probably good tippy election to Donald Trump? That part was so under cover it, although we got, was well these, these two FBI agents texted that they didn't like Donald Trump, and so there must be something there that, unlike Donald Trump no end, so they did anything about it, no evidence that they acted wrongly zero but there is evidence that there was bias against him

couldn't at the New York City. What office goods it? we, the people that really wants to take over the Miller S Kitchen, what does a brass- and it's like it's like no Rudy sitting there. With this woman as is up like a cat, and also this scientist. The scientists who loves puzzles the three of them, have all kinds of ideas, and I think this new legal team is up you to no good posters. A former prosecutors actually working with ready and the crazy thing about him. It's half his face that guy and he makes a decision by flipping a colleague, flipping thing here, there certain wash unopposed over the weekend about all of the age stuff? the hell was prepared for war and its Rudy Giuliani, saying we want to see. We can have investigation and special council declared illegal and unauthorized based on this idea report now whether the idea report

whether it's the Pfizer warrant, whether it's the release, the memo I mean they it's like, they will not stop. They have conspiracy after conspiracy, after conspiracy and all they are looking to do is the moment when Bob Mauler issues a report on obstruction, and if that report happens to say the Donald Trump is guilty of obstruction justice or has tried to obstruct justice in some way and recommends impeachment then things are going to get back like I'm like my guest migration is how important is it for them threats to win the war of public opinion. When this report comes out as we know we ceremony times. This Congress is certainly not going well Donald Trump, no matter what happens but, like you know what do we owe the public when this report comes out, and everyone it Fox and Rudy, and all the restroom say this is a. you Malo should be fired. I think there's only adding, there's two questions, better than that one is: should we fight to win the war

Good opinion generally. The answer there is obviously yes, there are launching a despicable, Miss information campaign to undermine our institutions. The good news there is the american people that aren't a subset of email. To watch Fox news boxes every day they get that they want to see more complete. His work, pull after poll shows that people want to see this come to its inclusion. I think people are you know, I think people respect this process and ultimately respect Robert Mahler, Then there is, I think, a second question is: what do we do about a misinformation campaign being run through fox and bright boy? and Republicans in Congress, I governess and I think the truth is we don't have a good answer for that- we don't really know how to combat misinformation from Fox to people who watch fox. I think it's one of the great challenges, because if we knew the answer, Donald Trump would be present in the other thing that keeps happening here is this misinformation campaign keeps getting packaged up as process story which gets hold of the Washington Post. Unlike me, power to them for reporting about its very legitimate, important story. But it's a vehicle for how they launder the fact that their

turning to lie in distort what happened in politicize? What could be the most serious? things ever found against sitting this precedent in the history of my country, ITALY, since Nixon as a political fight, and we We can't allow that frame, but also, I think the media needs to say that those are the terms on which this is gonna be fought. This is gonna, be about what he did or didn't, and this incredibly important I'm not worried about the fox fears. I mean I am worried about them, because there oh drawing our country, but their electoral choices. Are distorting urged with gotta course use they destroy the projects that we bear their fine, but they're they're, electing people who are really ruining things, but there's independence. There's wavering, more there's, wavering Republicans and you do I agree that the more the media feels the need to put our both sides of this debate. Could whom court debated trumpet, Giuliani and newness, and Fox NEWS and the rest of the country that there's people were like well, I think

from might have obstructed justice, but also maybe those FBI agents road. get em who knows or not. they should know, maybe the administration of Wiretap that guy, maybe that was illegal. You know, like you, said wondering what breaks through one thing that I think that, as I was kind of disconnected for weak, because I, as on vacation, you Know- and I will give you one thing that was actually hard was and I came back as what is happening over there like it's really really. I jus report what happened in the idea or port what which like what you know and and- and I think, a lot of times especially have liberals on Twitter- get bogged down in this debate over whether Maggie Haven call something a lie and honestly in our Europe your time how you want to spend your time. But I don't I'm not just on my time doing that, but I think one thing that I would like to see us concern ourselves more with his less policing the specific words that journalists use and asking larger question do people at the end of this day understand what happened

By reading in watching the news- and I think some days, the answer is yes, I think today the answer is yes, people to turned on the news who read briefly, who just dipped in a little because they were busy, I think you got a sense that what the trunk administration is doing is inhumane and that their lying about it. I think that comes through, but when it comes to I D report when it comes to more complicated legal matters when it comes to more debatable questions that aren't directly run things you understand like Healthcare really really hard to understand what's going on, and so I think we should spend a little time. Worrying about were choice a little bit more time, worrying about whether the actual facts are going. There are already into the second United AID and the third matter. Also, though, just one quick other note about Fox, I mean if you're watching Fox, you saw an Coulter turned to the camera addressed Donald Trump directly and say the crying immigrant immigrant children are child actors that he should not fall for. So like

that is in crazy reality is happening on one network washed by millions of people. In its like, we wait, there's no end to the damage that is causing. There is no. I do think to what you were just saying: love it the reason there is a difference between the family separation policy and the mother investigation is the mall investigate and is never going to be a level playing field because on one side. You ve got trot. You ve got trump, who run the entire federal government and Congo and now he runs Congress because Devon Newness is his errand boy and so he's got caught turn aside and and he's gotta entire propaganda network, and they can get their message together and talk all day. Long mauler is not supposed to be saying anything No, it's all secrets. It's all. You know the investigations going along. No one knows that there's there's been it's been fairly leak free from others and in so there's so many things that they can't say they can't defend themselves when they need to the camp. Her message out about the investigation, so they're always gonna, be at a disadvantage in the trump

People know that, and there and they're playing Yemen they ever thing about was just the fact that one person who has been successful at fighting kind of a battle over legal matter is Michael, have a raw because he's a cool and like seemingly perfect guy. You, like it s, weekly, came to life and became a lawyer to us as weekly went to work for he's waiting with the tabloid. But we are discussing tonight, you habited, but but one thing is that that that Trump can see. seed in some of these arguments because he is relentless he's. A hustler he's a liar and he'll out indoor you he will just keep going and people run out of steam and no one Democrat who says I'm the guy that speaks in defence of this investigation on the person who will out and fight every single day and pushed back on every single one of these things. There is no, and in it can just be a spokesperson, it would have to be assessed. there's at aunt on taking this on

because I want you and just because I care and I'll never stop and would be great, We had somebody's going to step up. Do that, ideally, some are not up for a while, but but I do think that voices missing not someone is like the leader of the party, but a paradigm shift. Does property guardianship does a fantastic job, but he's got bit he's a bunch of and a real responsibility. All responsibility here say everything: that's that he knows same thing for Mark Warner, same thing for a number of other senators, but there could be somebody a Chris Chris Murphy could be. Someone could do this. Many other shouted to supervise could do this, but, like somebody to that end, it would be in their colleagues saying that. Therefore, this too, that when there is a mother questioned you go to this person and they are, are we are in a campaign? Trump isn't a campaign he started. a pain right after the election was over, which is unprecedented? They are a campaign on every day and Democrats are in their own campaigns, but we are not at a national campaign, and maybe we should start on Mahler issue, starting a little bit more that where a look and that's what trumps gonna try to do on this family separation policy, does it is hoped that he is he's tried? You tries to wear a stout knows. I will get a lot of

it I'll get awful coverage, but I would just keep going. I will not back down. Ok, winning about I'll keep lying I'll. Have my administration lie I'll? Have the fox people? I would just that heap on fucking going- and I will wear them day- is a move and of your worn down moves the Overton Window on the issue and we are all ground down and we're ok with getting rid of the diversity lottery now or aid for the wall. All these positions we didn't hold two years ago based on the political reality and because he's fucking relentless and it sucks you yet that you will move on before I'm finished lying and when I'm the one lying. No one else will be here I'll, be the only one standing and that's where we can give up. That's what you gotta keep gonna! That's why that that it's it's! We sound like broken records, but that is why the only answer to all of these problems is kicking his ass. In the mid terms, a twentieth team, we dont show political cost to try.

ISM? It will never go away last chance for democracy November twenty trains leaving his eyes. Why do slug? Today's second up? That's almost Josie Pye! Guess I'm a little. How last call last Culver Demography last stop? This train is going to the deeper uptake. We will have Tommy's interview with Pulitzer Prize Winning, journalist, David Ferrie, Putting work has brought you by blue apron blueprints teaming up with best selling, Cookbook, author and mayor of the internet, Chrissy Teigen in friend front of the pot front of of upon, most importantly, to breathe some of her favorite recipes to make it home get ready for six weeks of wildly fun. Flavorful cooking, featuring recipes like

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This is an easy way to pay people back ass. Having dinner with tonight, Spencer, I am here to do as well as I didn't vestments there is mention in and I are, and that I think is people are saying that that Spencer's becoming character in that. Maybe we could offer some kind of a prize and do an escape Roma Spencer. Uncle ya know, therefore, that the protests that surprise you want Eric and Random oscillated are okay, so three opportunities, send oriented, aren't gonna be decided yet look I'll, see exodus take place in someone's that I'm not eating steak, I'm not eating that meat right now. So it's like, I don't want to go there. It's the fastest and easiest way to pay people back to get paid and if you download it today and put in the code pod save that's five dollars. You five dollars goes to moms demand action which is helping reduce gun violence, cross country, and it's a great cost, so go download the up today, fortify Spencer's agree, that's true

I am thrilled to have on pots of America. Today, David Byrne hold who, with a report for the Washington Post, he recently won the Pulitzer Prize for national reporting and twenty seventeen furs reporting on the Donald Trump Donald Trump Foundation. We hear a pod. Save America have been huge fans of your work for a very long time. So it's great to finally have you on the show David. I think your immune, Have you ever gotten confused for Blake, Fair and hold when booked and then done the whole interview in just sort of a character, has no first question. Yes, English. No several times have gone to be. Do a tv appearance and there's a picture of Blake Fareth all your work. in the crew to look out for this man. You have said to me like a fish. Come on. Congressmen No, it's too late for ethos is hard to fake and I never ever wanted to do it wrong. Do it an injustice

Fahrenheit die. If you google him, you will find a photo of him in pajamas at a party. He is now disgrace. A former congressmen turn lobbyists, but enough about Europe Unique last name used and the better part of two years digging into Donald Trump Charity be Trump Foundation, and you did it in this really cool open source, to crown source kind of way. totally new and radically transparent in the twitter age. Why did you start to focus on the Trump Foundation? And you can take us through what you found I guess now several years ago, yet I didn't they when I started this is going gonna, be any sort of big deal. I didn't. I thought I was gonna, be a couple of a story. So when I was in, I was following Trump around Iowa, covering him for the post in on Caucus Day and one of the appearance, as he did in Waterloo, Iowa heeded this really odd. hey, stands up on the stage in the middle of his campaign. Rallying suitcase stop the rally. I'm gonna give away some money any

brings this charity. The officials from this local veterans charity in do up on the stage and he brings out the giant. Can a Gulf tournament. Looking big oversized check, poverty is clearing up rates. Ugly and it says Donald Trump Foundation is sort of the pay or of the check and on the bottom is keep make Amerika great again campaigns Slogan on the bottom, the chair, slogan on it on the top, where the payers aimed at yeah. He gives him a hundred thousand, our Czech. They say: oh miss trump you're, so generous. Thank you so much for this. They sit down and when the rally resumes- and I I thought what weird Have you seen anybody do that before native away charity money during the middle presidential campaign region is based it, because it's illegal, that's when a little illegal, blatantly illegal that you might have the whole stamped on the jagged. This is in fact contribution bright with one of the bedrock I dunno as before started this, but one of the bedrock principles of american charity LAW is, then you can't take the money

in your charity and spend it unto by things for yourself, and you can't take the money, new charity and use it to help a political campaign, muslim, european political camp? And so I got interested in that just because there was money involved and it was sort of concrete, and so much of covering Trump is like he said that he really mean it will say it again. Does he know talking about in this case, I, like this, the concrete of the money, so I wanted to know you know what get that money. Where did it come from? Who else is he began than giving money to, and I thought begin this would just be a couple of days turned out the trumpet had this fundraiser use having sphere with making Kelly's? We in this house can hardly imagine now in retrospect, but he was viewed Fox news, so he he skips a Fox news. They lie. He has a televised, fundraiser kind of a telethon kind of thing for himself, voices. He raises six million dollars for veterans. That's where the money! that I saw him give away, had come from it with other people's money that had come into his foundation through a telephone, and I thought well just ask where the rest of the money went won't will learn something about Trump from seeing who he is

the six million dollars of other people's money too, and it turned out that was not a short story. That was the beginning of a very, very long saga, trying to get the answers first about this turns donations and in about a bunch of other stuff. In just again to settle in more contact, The money donated to the Trump Foundation was from other people not named Donald Trump Bright, having eat people, he c o rich guy The foundation must have this assume it's his cash, but that's not the case here right. One of the things from that you learn about from through this whole line of coverage, and we learn more about him since he became president is it he he's looks for honour systems and exploits them. He finds places where people obey the rules not because their forced to buy the cops or something that, because everybody else, a basic rules and you would, it would be seen as a loss of face not to be the rules. is willing to accept that loss of face for the benefit that comes from breaking the rules. So what example of this is the dominant foundation right, so everybody else in palm Beach or New York wherever you hang out, it is a rich guy with his name on the foundation of it's his money. He

on Monday, the foundation the foundation give the money away, but it's all initial originally his, because who would do otherwise who would give away somebody else's money with their own name it There are be shameful and so Trump exploded that often burn the campaign in before to where he he took in money, from other people. As you said during the campaign, it was from other donors from this telethon before then. Oddly, it was from Vincent Man. The biggest donor to the trunk foundation for many years had been Vincent, Linda MC man. They, five million dollars for years Trump was giving people Vincent Man's money with his name attach with trumps name attached. People thought here: gonna donation from Donald Trump, key for lunatic man. She was made headed these Small Business Administration by Donald Trump, so not a bad pay off. Ok, so fast? What a little bit of the New York attorney General filed a suit against President Trump and his three eldest kids into. Way person like myself. This stand pretty serious, the New York age accused drop in his kids of court. systems illegal conduct

we know that tromp was personally directing charity money to be used to pay off. go settlement of moral logo. She, set the chair to be dissolved in the Trump be banned from leading any other charity in New York or nonprofit in New York for ten years, can you help us explain the allegations and how serious they are These are very serious allegations. One thing to say at the beginning, as at the New York, Agee does not actually have jurisdiction to bring criminal charges. In a case like the rank and file re on profit law, so this is sort of as hard as she can go at somebody for misusing their non profit and in what I want to talk nonprofit experts about the alley. actions laid out in this lawsuit. They say look back the every way you can misuse and non profit every way, every every category of violation, Trump basically hit hit the it all and is only a few that, in this heat of its wish, you luck, Looking back was to see that for years, even though the found

in the trunk foundation is a tax exempt charity by law. Its independent headstone directors has done goals at an independent entities. He had treated it like his own pocket book. its treated a sort of as another another pocket of his wallet Trump one? something that a non profit had he paid out of his foundation you know that's not how it works when he uses to use the money and its foundation to, as you said, pay off a couple different instances where his for profit business, had gotten into legal trouble and the for profit businesses. It was MAR a Lago. In one case, it was a golf course in another. Those for prohibition- had said, ok, fine, to settle this legal trouble will make a donation to charity and instead of four people, business doing it, but the nonprofit trumps Foundation paid instead and so I think it trumps mind, but his excuse has been well look. A charity got paid in the end, so how could this be bad, but with a charity? In those cases a charity was gonna get paid anyway. The question is whether the business was gonna, do it or that the chair trumps Foundation was gonna, do it, and so, in those cases from foundation steps in and saves his businesses to fifty eight thousand dollars a lot

and then on one example that I always come back to because it so funny is this portrait this missing portrait? us more about that. So in the course of my reporting twenty sixteen we found this instance trumpet used. There was such a charity auction at MAR a Lago when they're auctioning off art- and I think people have figured out that if you want to sell art during the gala at MAR a Lago, you should paint a picture of trump and bring it because there's no way no one else is going to buy it, and if Trump doesn't bite, it will go on sold and what a great loss of face. That will be that no one where the by journal trumps face you know and drawn from Sun House. Like the painting from Ghostbusters to admit that there is one rule or whatever anyways, I interim it. So it's a job in this case. It happens has been the case for talking about trumpets. Ten thousand dollars for this portrait of himself in which is fine, He uses his charities money to pay for the to pay thousand dollars. Now, the under law. The charity owns that painting and ensure the painting must be used for a charitable purposes. So, ok, I was trying to.

and what would a charitable purpose be for a giant portrait about trumpet? Maybe it's in a hospital someplace. Maybe it's a charter school at an who knows what kind of there would have been a, maybe a questionable, aesthetic decision, but it would have been ok by the law. I didn't know where that portrait is in the trunk. People wouldn't tell me. I asked him all kinds of different ways. They wouldn't tell me. Where was so? I just based. We asked people on Twitter. Look, here's a sure of what I'm looking for you to know where it is now reader at my house Aguilar. They had this idea she said your cousin, she said: look, this painting is too ugly to be hung and trumps own house is inflicted on the public and so on, looking at the Tripadvisor page for Giraldus Gulf Resort Trump loans outside a Miami, and she see ok, you know what this four hundred pictures of every for the buffeted people's bathrooms, but you would not believe, is that people are posted. Like you photos of drought, three the photos- and she finds a picture of this portrait that I'm looking for incredibly on the wall. The sports bar at at trumps golf club decorating, while the sports part, which is definitely not a cherry, no

She is a genius that that is that that annex, don't, I think, outlines the genius of the open source reporting strategy, because there's no way you could have gotten into every single one of these locations. Writing the mostly private clubs, though I must their private. Yes, I would have since real answers to all these places, and maybe we would have found it would have taken a couple of days and then a lot of places are the clubs of private. So you can never be sure if you didn't find it that it wasn't someplace you just can't get into so yet it was it was like. I felt are easy because I put this question out there and then basically other people solve the entire mystery. What just happen on twitter? That's called leadership. Better zealots, let's dig into some delegations because the great thing about an attorney general investigation as they can get access to documents that you can't of one of them. One of my favorites is an email from Corey Lewandowski, who we all know and love that, simply says, hey, can we distribute some money this week in Iowa right before the Caucasus I see that and I think that's it

Bout, an obvious camping finance violation as it gets, and it certainly fits a pattern of misuse of these funds for political candidate. improperly sent the Florida attorney General PAM, Bandy twenty five thousand dollars back in the day and had to pay a fine for that. But you, you made a very important part, appoint earlier about jurisdiction. Now, the in Journey General C this? Actually, the IRS in Effie see the Federal actions Commission on these on this complaint Is this all now in the hands of an F p c that has been totally de Fanged or what do you think the future lies for for you. No more charges potentially coming in this case, well you're right about that. So this is now the irish court and in the end, if he sees Korea, if is a dysfunctional by nature, but especially dysfunctional. Now may you know they have to all get together. Republicans Democrats to do anything in there seems like they aren't doing very much the irish interest and so, if you, if you read the the referral, the lawsuit so that the New York Edgy gives to the IRS she basically in in

Facts lawyer terms, telegraphs, look. I think this is criminal conduct, because this text was different. other kinds of line. You know you don't have to prove. If I rob a bank, you dont have to prove that I knew it was illegal to rob a bank you could just cruise around the the banking. That's enough to convince me. Texts are so complicated. You have to through to the jury that did it defended, understood. Tax law knew what the infraction was and then did it anyway. That's called wilfulness was the com, wilful in knowing in in the in the lawsuit that deadline New York Edgy lays out. She describes trumps conduct as wilful no in and lays out. You know he signed this paperwork showing that he understood the rules even after every broke them. That's unity! and a hand, the IRS Ass, much ass. She can, on a silver platter, a criminal case. Now we know the IRS has been decimated by budget cuts after the lowest learner scandal a few years ago, and it would just be Iris, it would be the deal J that would have to charge trump. So as a lot of steps down the road, I still think it's extremely unlikely, but the the age he was trying to tell them look. I have made this case for you. The evidence. Is there a form

Iris official told the New York Times. There were several cases where people were criminally prosecuted for filing false charitable tax returns differently from here, is that those cases court are less egregious exactly. I mean Do we need better laws? Do we need is a goal it possible that there there there may not be any additional follow up on. From a legal perspective. Given that kind of quote, we don't want pay, logic, we now know what's gonna happen. One thing that really surprised me about dealing with the arrest in the storing generally before tromp was elected was how we are afraid of the arrests and if you know anybody, my wife's family has a small family foundation they and they do everything by the book they meet every year and they go by Robert rules of order in the IRS, is hanging over all that where they wanted not every eye across every Tita make sure everything is perfect, because anyone who want to follow the IRS

it turns out the IRS is not watching a lot of the time there there. The honor code and forces allowed along the iris is is not not reach spot checking very often so it's surprisingly many people, a trump got away with his stuff for so long because the Irish doesn't check up on people, in accepting really really big cases and transformation was never that big and read that much money, so certainly they their enforcement has been cut back you know I do want to put you didn't: not they're not do anything, but certainly they are. They ve never been up as as on the present as we thought they were, and now they're, even less and less aggressive, because a few people What are you thinking about? This cases is not just Donald Trump that is in trouble. It is Don Junior, its Eric it's a vodka they were all on the board and they were supposed to provide some sort of oversight of of all its donations, spending God board has not met since nineteen. Ninety nine one guy quotas has, he didn't know he was on the board. He was more members of the board and he was fully aware he was even on it,

like I'm laughing, because it's all I can do now, not cry, but how big a deal is that element of The total, like lack of giving a shit about the border on that is the heart of the term foundation? Is the day the that, as is that they treated? It is basically just another checkbook per down from three checks out of and dates because the irish requires into file annual reports on the annual reports they'll they did like a regular charity. They listed, as you said, Don Junior Erika vodka as directors. They insomnia, they said they were half an hour week on it this guy on Weissenburg he talked about earlier. He lets him is the treasurer on paper. They checked off all the boxes that they were doing. Things in a normal foundation did in practice they did none of it. They have. Never board meeting since ninety. Ninety nine dungeon arrogant vodka, amid the idea behind all this is that this is not the this foundation is not a possession of down trumpet is an independent entities with its own goals, and so the directors are supposed to make sure whoever's running it. In this case from is

just misusing it for his own purposes and lay seem accordant that lawsuit work completely asleep at the wheel. Do you think the boarded meat because of White UK concerns have effective? Has it's never too early to come back big Hug data could crash it, wasn't even the same people and arrogant Don Junior arrogant of ongoing even on the board back, then it was a summit with some other set of people. So late, as far as I know, they never met, they were never know their board, never meant a juncture. We needed all of our millennia listener to get so. I read your reporting. You know four years that I read you know the reports. They stopped this agency's letter or filing and thought this is blockbuster stuff president. His family are accused of serious illegal conduct, but somehow we fallen back into a conversation, but Hillary Clinton, fuckin emails and attack sent by some. You know: FBI, guy

Does that drive you crazy? Have we lost the ability to sustain focus? Uncomplicated investigative journalism like the stuff you do it's just different environment and in his soul, many other stories out there. I mean it wise to imagine the person reading my stories. You know by started in the business. It was like somebody sitting down at their desk with a cup of coffee in their reading them in others. working work and reading my story and they're on their desktop and the other undivided attention. right now, I imagine you know, there's a scene in one of the soup, men movies recipients, Father get picked up by twenty. No imagine someone has been spit out of a cornerstone in other. They cover to get our big disoriented. You know, and so I think it's my job to try to, people where they are limited. It doesn't us going on, so I'm trying to do things that will let people follow my thread of reporting today? I am writing it, and I have it individual story in the paper to me. Then so in means like getting other people to write about I'd like to have more people writing about these stories and in have been recently just because it helps sustained people's focus and helpful sort of.

Amanda that threaten hold onto it, even when there the tornado yeah. I mean you like you are so good at it. You seduce Melton smoke and you assume there was a fire and you just chased it down in until you until you found a fire or you had some. Finally, some legitimate oversight from New York officials to help you find the fire you ve also been writing on the Trump organization which is his family business. In you, Part of reporting team at the posts it took a deep dive into how, after decades of of using debt to finance big just as trumps started spending hundreds, dollars in cash in the eight ourselves so before he became president work you think we are going to learn from that story. Is there a? Is there another iteration of that kind of reporting to figure out why you started throwing cash around, because people are it looks like money laundering, all sorts of not entirely substantiated allegations, but certainly again, there is some smokey right from for us. The next step is to try to check out what Iraq from to aircraft gave an explanation of why they say

from years and nears of borrowing doing what for years they did what and the sort of extreme version of what other real estate companies do. you buy the things and you borrow money because it allows you to buy bigger things is just as a whole industry built on the idea that you borrow money to buy buildings and then they stopped. They started by things in all cash which nobody does and there's a lot of reasons why it's riskier. You know that you can't buy as many things so they Stop doing this buying things in cash from two dozen sixty fourteen and Eritrea explanation. ask him as well. We have so much cash. We were rolling in cash from our existing businesses. They just turned off so much cash, everyone We really need to borrow you know we wondered if we wanted to just take money out of the cat. They d like mean a monthly cash flow and spend it on these buildings and What we're doing now is trying to check that out. Does anything about the trumps finances assets in that period, Lynn, Creed,

his theory that they're like Scrooge Mc Doc, you know they have so much cash coming into these women. In that you know, buying things in caches is no big deal. It is more convenient like why get alone. If you need the money, that's the that's. The Laurie we're trying to sort of understand. Now, in that period, from six to fourteen yeah I mean if anyone could concoct a reason to turn away from historically low interest rates to start using all cash at its Eric Trump, the genius, the other the other smoking story that I've been reading about the washing posts. That Ivanka and Jared made eighty two million dollars now tied income between seventeen. While there are some serving in the White House itself, you know it seems quaint to remember when we were talking about various provisions in the constitution. Like emoluments clause, clause prevented a present from taking money from foreign entities, but there is also a basic conflict of interest. Is that another avenue the you think reporters? Will to run down. When there is talk of you know, a vodka trade marks or hotels, opening overseas, etc. Yes, I mean we're

How do I know about better is the is the main Trump organization I don't much about of Uncle Jerry, but every there's been a lot of scrutiny on that because, as you said, there's You know, I don't think I have any evidence that what she reported was illegal, but we have to understand the connections she and Jared have the companies overseas to companies may be tied to National governments, especially the Middle EAST, where Jared is supposed to be seen as an honest broker you do understand the different fact into the different factions it plays real. The Qataris is the UAE, the Saudis You know they all control an enormous amount of money. Jared company and is in the real say, business someplace, where you know it's huge amounts of money can come and go to understand the connections. He has two players in those countries. I'm sure the people involved in the Middle EAST conflict on are trying to understand and it's going to shape the way they see jurists. I'm trying to do the same thing. My fine, question for you just I have never seen it administration lie like this. One trump is, out there blaming these horrific immigration policies and Democrats, Scott Prude is as corrupt as they

Steve Bannon, abandoned was unable to yesterday was allowed to say that he doesn't think troubles ever allied. How do you you're with administration that doesn't doesn't give a shit about the truth and like what ways. Are you guys trying to cut through that spin and and just get the facts? I think the sort of coverage of the what's happening of the southern border of families are based operated by the Trump Administration has been a really like. I think, seen a real evolution it just in the last few days of the way we ve covered sort of persistent falsity from the trunk administration or in ink in some cases, persistent caught in a conflict, story from do no one, partly ministries, Saints Democrats fault, one part of saying: what is our fault we It was the right thing to do. Kristen Nielsen yesterday was saying it wasn't. There was happening, I think you ve seen. Really encouraging to me trends, one people sending

quarters out to ground troops. What's going on to seat, learn as much as they can from the people down there. You know not relying on the administration is the arbiter of facts about this. You know going on line in the actual facts and making the headlines at the story and then whatever trumps is about it if its at variance with whatever the facts actually are goes down in the story goes below and Then there's been times in your times too, to praise the competitors Good job with especially last few days when trumps something you know that the headlines Trump says x and then the secondary head is but excess false. It right, Trump falsely says accede. Did it did this morning with his false claims about the crime rate in Germany, like it its becoming too, where the falsehood is the first thing you see, which I think in certain cases it actually warranted if the east, if ways road is telling you is known by everyone to be false, till that say that first, don't and then you know it was you risk passing on something that people will just part of, and think that trumpets telling the truth yeah, I think wilful lying by the presidents. It is is the main story of this era at the moment, because

backs matter. I just want to clarify that the painting Is Vigo, their capacity in from Ghostbusters tool, fantastic movie, fancied it David Fairness, you are one of the best in the business. Everyone should subscribe, pay money to get the washing posts to get your great work and get you guys more people. Your team and another port. Sir- and I thank you for all your doing- to help us understand what the hell's goin on things went up. What is it I paid last golfer demography, then as well, based even fair in old for joining us today and will be on the road at the end of the week, and you guys will hear us Friday morning. You'll hear the Atlantic show core talk to them by trains,

yeah.