Trump fires FBI Director Jim Comey in the middle of an investigation involving the Trump campaign’s potential collusion with Russia, and gets plenty of support from Republicans in Congress. Then, former White House Counsel Kathy Ruemmler joins Jon and Dan to talk about the legal implications of the Comey firing.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
The presenting sponsor POD, save America, is blue, apron great
but when the number one fresh ingredient recipe delivery service in the country, the missions to making
credible, home cooking accessible to everyone,
to one is a prison, that is to say their far ahead of their competitors.
Cooking together build strong family bonds. Research shows that labour-
These cook nearly three times more often
to spend a lot of restaurants are high and grocer chains can aspen under ten dollars per person for a delicious meal more like homepage, Akerana, not the kind of residence as that
from a variety of new recipes each week or let blueprints contrary team. Surprise, you recipes an hour.
Within a year, so you'll never get bored, loving, never gets bored with us.
The featured upcoming males include beef, Teriyaki stir
try with sugar, snap peas and lime, rice and three cheese and
be broccoli, strung Bali with tomato and original dipping sauce. From now on, I'm not doing fake recipes.
Really happy with the idea that I had found the delicious leech milligrams of the step by step, easy to follow recipe, cart and proportion ingredients and can be prepared
forty minutes or less the blue, apron, freshness,
Aren t promises that every ingredient near delivery arrives rate a cook or they'll, make it right
children they make it right. I don't know, maybe they'll get you something else on demand. What everyone from labour and
weeks menu and get your first three meals free with free shipping. By going to blueprint outcome, such crooked you'll love how good it feels and taste to create and crime,
hunkered meals. You know we glass,
that line, how good it feels and taste is weird.
My saviour lie? I we just sort of do it because we gotta get to the slogan which we do enjoy. You know what's going to
We have time to do some cooking with Blue James coming yeah he's gonna
he's gonna find their. They have aprons permit that all citizens
That is proportion ingredient. I only have two options: Baker, girl,
Gotta boy apron that comes live crooked, Barbara,
calm such crooked blue
Britain is about
welcome to plug save America. I'm John Favour Andean Pfeiffer. On the blood
They we have former White House counsel in front of the pod Cathy rumbler he's gonna, take
all about her legal advice and in such
situation that were now, and you should also check out
parts of the world from yesterday, Tommy woke up:
I've thirty in the morning and did an impromptu interview with former Department of Justice, spokesman, Matt Miller about James Comey's firing so go check that
and tomorrow Friday, on with friends
these ANA clocks talks
Ben how I never.
Where some advice for the left about the tea party successes and failures.
And I shall suggest a brain Jensen, but of uncle Trump so check that out tomorrow and then of course,
Once they may seventeenth. We will all be it. The ace hotel, in LOS Angeles,
with our special guest, mere Eric are setting, so that should be fun. I'm excited
get out, I will see if the LA crowd is lit. Is it San proud?
I'm telling you, I hope, not
I was somethin right there
we do in my hometown, proud. We should one day like we should have
but have contest where whoever might cause the most voters are Naxa Mostar, as we will give them acts
so the San Francisco LIVE show, given I mean,
it's nothing for us to be embarrassed about. I want everyone to know that I'm have five. We are. We were amazing. Let me be very clear: it's the questioners! It we're protecting the court
here. Ok, so
I think there's a little bit going on in the news today.
Talking about what a clusterfuck
I want you to know that I came up with that term. Yesterday, clusterfuck they give her priming upon this conversation
unbelievable. I can we're talking about Trump, claiming that it came up with the phrase,
the pump in an interview with the economist of all places
which at you I like you. Suddenly, the transcript this morning is like six, a m and, unlike reinterred like there's too much to focus,
I can't read another interview where Donald Trump Sound. Like fucking Moura.
Tat lay economists was quite a thing. The time magazine interview where he brought time report
had them time over the river, for course dinner and and brought them aunt. You show them some. He was very proud of the sixty.
Screen TV there
he had added to the president's private study in his tv.
Because he he records
cords all the morning daytime cable shows and then he plays them back.
Can get angry late at night,
very well. Maybe he doesn't right, then it makes a perhaps harassed decisions right like firing the director
the FBI, which is what will be talking about. So this have
we were having a crooked media retreat, so we had no laptops. No funds
we're all sitting at the table time to plan the future, the company,
and then we took a break in someone saw that this this news alert came up that come with fire,
we all turned on cable.
We are on CNN and there in one of the forty five boxes on the screen was Dan Pfeiffer. I now I was,
This is pretty good, so I went about fifteen to twenty minutes before
the news happened. I was already scheduled to see an end in a fortuitous momentum. Lao arbiter,
and I was doing a call with producer in the topic was going to be comin
about is. This was on the heels of the co me testimony area and the criticism of co me for Miss stating
my lady having emails ended up on whom Aberdeen laptop right
so the question the Bruce or Ass Macy's. Do you think
call me should be fired and he said
that's insane the heavy, that's the judge, the area
actors, the one official in Washington. We can't be fire, they serve tenure terms, you apps,
Give me a moot point. We should even talk about it. Handkerchief
you're pretty get about high school, honest rapid. Another on how things work in DC
I doubt at my desk- looked at my at my phone,
and then my phone exploded, and if I went back and look at our
strain over this that we have
Tommy and so and better roads, and could I get in
It's just me saying holy shit.
And then you saying wow all we can celebrate. That's really funny,
though you worked, so you are one of those Democrats. That said absolutely
should be fire and have lost confidence in him. No, I
I hope I time I'm gonna where we would like us on keeping sixteen hundred, but I hope with
ever the it in the middle of the coma fiasco. When the Democrats or say hurry,
fire bisection Hilary, obviously can't fire like that's insane like. Why reason sameness? Of course he can't be fired, he's the FBI director and it was
it just it was so insane so like I am one of the few Democrats. I guess who can defend his twenty sixteen statements about this, but
even with the Democrats said, is a relevant to what actual to one. Why, when actual
happened. You also like I just remember thinking I was is unbelievable,
we passed when call me, you know, release the letter a week before the election. I thought it was crazy. I've been unbelievably critical of it, but as soon as Trump become
President like I was instantly thinking
Of course he needs to keep communist job, because the last thing we want in the world is a fucking trump pick for the FBI, like
feeling we ve also known that from the from day one you know a worse it be like boat detail.
Rang usually earlier some fact news contributor right, it seems like no one might look whatever call delinquent whatever he screwed up like it made us all mad but like in no way without us, but that somehow be worse than a person. The trump would point to the F B. I mean when he had,
pick for dear J. We have Fucking Jeff sessions now, so
you know, win win Trump,
Sally Yeats. Yahoo is the acting attorney general, who refused to infer
says muslim Ban in it
a lot of he went around. This is like Watergate. There's like Watergate: it really was it right, it was. It was
acting attorney general either. He was, he should not a fired her. She was has been proven right by multiple courts, raw both,
in Hawaii and on the mainland. U s the hidden! She made the right decision by this is like some evil overstated case back then, but when you fire, the person who is in charge of investigating you for colluding with
Russia to tilt the election in your favour? That's when the Watergate they doesn't seem so crazy. No, it makes Watergate. Look like
a technicality. I mean Jesus Christ we so before before we get into the
five billion white has sources who led to the New York Times in the Washington Post. Let s start with. What's on the public record, maybe
are not inclined to believe the millions and millions of sources or leaking soap.
Over the last commie has a testified.
Is absolutely no evidence to support trumps lie the
Ike Obama wiretapped him and be testify that the FBI
is investigating whether people on the trump came
in colluded with Russia to interfere with the twenty sixteen elections, Trump hated. That call me said these things. How do we know that, while
He tweeted about it constantly over and over again from tweeted
about how the Russia of Investigation was fake news about how history we can approve him
about the wiretapping claim, last week from tweeted that former
international intelligence, James Clapper, said that there was no evidence of clue
and even of those and an old quote from clapper, because he left the government for
months ago. So we have no knowledge of an FBI investigation and then Drumhead, an aid actual
paced his tweet about clapper on his twitter background. Remember that was just like yesterday or two days ago,
so we know? So you know he was fairly testy about this and then of course, on Tuesday he fires coming in
by bizarre rationale. For it I mean it's it's so funny,
the when I was on CNN Satellites, Argo, what the rationale wise yeah-
as you know, was that
James Commie Head in Sarah Huckabee
the UN spices just
placement in waiting here. So hungry, though it has precedent, deputy president said they call me,
committed quote atrocities in his investigation of Hillary Clinton females so that the rationale
That would be a regional rationale. We have since changed it. Yes, it Jim crow me as a pole, Pied FBI, directors right, that's about
I mean so originally
Originally the way has said the Trump decided to fire calmly, because the attorney General Jeff sessions and the debt
the attorney general rod risen recommended it.
So you have a memo from Rosen. Seen that says,
all the ways that come broke with love
standing Department of Justice policy in his handling of Hilary email, investigation and Jack quickly.
And was with
Pretty. General sessions allowed to be involved in matters including the rush investigation. Nobody
He refused himself because he lied to Congress about meeting with the russian ambassador. Yes, at of,
who is known by many to be part of russian intelligence
ride and because because he neglected to tell Congress that when he was asked, if he had met with any Russians, he
accused himself from any matters related to the russian
when he decided to write a memo recommended
The firing of the man who is leading the investigation has just eyes, went get all these things are there
so that's very normal, very normal, so
rose unseen, writes a memo two sessions
sessions, then writes a memo to Trump
and and then and then Trump fires them troubles
So then, burdened by Wednesday
the white has said actually trump.
Has been thinking about firing commie since November and
became strongly inclined after his testimony last week, which doesn't really
hold up with the fact that then you they do
pity attorney general writes a memo a couple days.
For the firing about all the things he did in the Hillary Clinton Investigation right.
Add that no one zero people believe
this zero, while they just leaving the White House,
the story? The White House contradicted the white has forget about all the sources forget about whether you believe
the fake news or not the White House, fucking change their store it. Yes, they
They did. I will give you my freshman year they not handled as well.
That is there so much about this. That is worth taking apart ride. Rosans did, I don't know
all I know is that he was voted unanimously by the Senate. Obviously we don't agree with him on many many things, but he
I believe, a pretty sterling reputation in the weird by partisan clumsiness. That is like ivy, educated liars and he
basically decided like do he's only when the job for a couple weeks now, I think tat
to take the years of work that he has been building up this reputation, serving as a clear
to a judge- is a: U S. Attorney a prosecutor in lighting it on fire for Donald Trump
So bizarre. I dont, I would love to know. What's going on and rod remonstrance mine, while there
and in the Washington Post masterpiece that will get to shortly Matthew
sources close to ride was seen say he threatened to quit only threatened to quit all who gives a fuck quit or don't
Where do not bug me with sources close to you, with your background, quotes about how you you you threatened to quit because you been
rendered the bus for this. Well, yes, we recently iniquitous because apparently in the first,
is this. The Trump administration said: oh, it was all Rosen Stiens doing he was the one read the memo recommending the fire.
Of commie and Trump just went along with the memo rose.
Seen heard this got really pissed threatened to quit. I don't know why
he didn't follow through with it of course today
the OJ said that spoke, the official spokesperson, the department just said: no, no, that's categorically falls. He never continent for adequate. Yet we believe everything you say
so how somebody
yeah. You didn't go through with it for some reason, maybe because he is already saw the soul to the devil. That is down
it is this. Is the person? Is the person personal depending on to appoint a special prosecutor? Rough
this is pod. Save America stick around more great show coming away, but the very
his bride, you by pro flowers mother days this weekend, oh shit, I said- oh shit forgot mother,
there's this weekend, you can still send the hundred blooms for mom bouquet from pro flowers in time from others day and while her with these bright colors flowers, something to think about becomes the free glass.
Thanks for just one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine plus shipping and handling she'll, say wow. You almost didn't remember him. If you really want to make a statement, you can upgrade to a premium base and include gourmet chocolates for just ten dollars. More obviously want to include the gourmet chocolate
True, the delivery date you want profiles, guarantees your flowers, will arrive, fresh and beautiful and stay that way for at least seven days or you get your money back. This is in our brain or everyone should go to this guy. Your mom's and pro flowers
chocolate, saying, Grandma's, unpredictable shitty glass face, get the premium glasses by your dad suppliers by anyone, flowers, click on the microphone in the top right corner
of their profiles are com website and use the code. Crooked you'll get these stunning fire
free glass based starting it just nineteen. Eighty nine that's profiles: dot com could crooked when you click on the MIKE order today, but for your out of time and pro flowers is out of this book K. What a disaster that would be pro flowers, a better and better at a flower preserve America
is also brought to you. I Tommy jobs. It is a very exciting their side and we issued a bit of a challenge to the georgian people where we were relentlessly critical of their advertising. Writing
and they responded by not giving us an as as if to say, both thank you were listening and also foggy or listening. Looking at you blew apron pro flowers,
You have controlled ass. Well, so we'll sell your products, let's our doing so.
Great great. Not great. Could he used the cop? Let's talk about Tommy, John Underwear, I know: what's your favorite will tell you it's not you. It's been a long time, favorite of yours. From before we were ever podcast again I googled Tommy on underwear and were popped up as a company and decide to support us any hill. It is my
This very comfortable and aware my go to basically lesson unnoticed
the other brand of my backups, but, like you know how it is, you have united the clothes you liked aware of that
the clothes that you're wearing when closer laundry jack, bright and
and always to clear out the landlady clothes and replacing having one brand, though you can
no matter when you stick your hand that underwear draw your final something out by every time you he can you pull out you're like unhappy today. Tommy, don't make me happy, it does, and the m- and I will never forget how good attain, is a cool like really my dream to be its have a drawer full of socks
and underwear that completely coordinated and to think about right. You not making a choice. You know we all have decision fatigue right, that's my mark! Zuckerberg,
where's the won t shirt when he's running for president lying about it anyway, I want my one underwear type to be Tommy, John, because I'm so happy
I really hope it does improve your day a little bit to not be wearing. One of you know the country, but it looks like you know, I'm going to stop at the store named, but let's say it's a thing: you shoot an arrow at
I rejected, whereas backed by the best peril everywhere. It's free guarantee, hurried timing,
dot com such crooked get twenty percent off your first order. That's Tommy, John DOT com, slash crooked for twenty percent of Tommy John Dotcom cricket.
Ah me, John Underwear, a better way to you know, have things under your class
so we go through these talks but want them both in your Tabs national post at the Washington Post. One is really the masterpiece, even though both are quite good
the trunk made up his mind during around of Gulf in New Jersey over the weekend.
Actually, technically before and after the golf round when he was watching cable and as he does, we may get the television as he does you just looking through the diva there's like ninety eight percent
so he had to clear out some old morning job hazards. And what did he come across things? A jam
call me said the maiden very angry, similar so
goes back to DC on Monday. Any tells done,
again, who is the white, has council Jack
commissioner, his grafting son in LAW and MIKE Pence, the vice president, and
you tell them. He wants to move forward and fire call me
one stops him. No one tries to stop him. There's some reports that the ban in previous
thought that the timing was off that maybe he should wait a little bit but no
When was really against this.
And so he then has session
and Rosen Steen right up the mammals and
and he fired them and then and then
no one in the West wing knows until about an hour before this happens, the
communications team is alerted. You always want to tell your communications team that your firing, the FBI director about an hour
before you do. It gives a lot of time to prepare a social issue,
and in the communication the directive were alerted an hour before the news, as announced most
West Wing AIDS didn't know it all they just found out when their when there
I got. You know breaking news alerts.
And then the whole thing happen in Johns by sir you wouldn't I gotcha
space or in the bushes because
I wasn't paying much engine the news yesterday I was very busy and then I like looked on twitter and everything but shut, there's like a whole bunch of chance by Sir bushes means- and I had no idea what's going on here. Let's do add, Tik Tok of shots, basic safety so
late in the afternoon. I think he might a brief that the Arab League
some are on renewables or federally. No, but anyway he gets caught in the oval office with by dubbed key, usually went on communication structure who know and he's like your cash or no one's ever heard his voice receipt his face, they dont know who he is and
we're fire in the general are that if yet are accurate, here's what we're doing some unreal
The statement spacer
whose computer descended
statement to the press
but for some reason and is at an english ancestors small. Sometimes the technology does not work awesome and the White House. I e health care knack of this.
Eight minutes not sending out fast enough, so he, according to reports, he go
was to the briefing room,
opens the door yells
the news closes, the door goes back to his office walks. There's a
or that blocks where the press work in
The pressure to research that is always open. Yahoo
the door, because in his office hides in his office watch our help break loose Donald
is eating DE goes home to eat a well done steak with ketchup. That's my address. I actually, it
I didn't put us right, but it is assuming that to be the case in his watch.
And keep others, and he is surprised and concerned to find that people think
there's a big deal and gets very upset
he since signal down to his staff through unaware, like through a raven or he author, Canada String and are really now entail.
Then that he once is people on tv defending him, so they go
down to the basement, where they have lock
income over the last few months unlock or take her out. Spacer goes
tv and so Spacer goes out to the north wind and from the White House to do some fox interviews
essentially preacher, the choir the prey,
Who can get into answers to no questions sees that fact that chance by Sir is right outside on tv.
So they gather
the few smart, collective actions, the press it ever taken and they gather waiting for him to come off the tv. He
basically hides in the bushes, so they can't interview him and they are now demanding answer our questions as our questions, and he
through an aid says he will take questions but not on care.
But while he saw hiding in the bushes and then demands that
tvs turn the lights off, so it will be in the dark and therefore they can't use the footage of him.
Mean this is a sign that charge my there's not going to this job because of course, there can use a photo. She just gonna look sketchy in the dark ones: the
its go off. He steps,
the bushes in his of turtle, surrounded by some his head out. Like a
like some sort of turtle, had answers
questions than runs back into the West way and hides
never to be seen again. Six more we
the stonewalling so
the whole thing is so good. I mean you in these reports
Europe is very upset his communication steam
very very upset.
He blames them for this. He there are reports that here
Actively thinking about firing, spies and replacing them with Sarah could be centres we can get to in a minute.
And wild, whilst by rolled away, unlike on his naval reserve duty. Thank you for your service on the fifth. That's
Really, ninety robust here's, the thing
about into defend. Judgments are for the first time in the last I'm on this bad. This is not his fault; no,
I don't it's not by the only gave him an hour in
It would be an insane amount of time to announce the press
its position on trees
rotational for, like you need time you things, but they could have
in him a decade refer, they can
back in time in total
Two thousand and seven to prepare. For this moment,
we have heard is its on fucking spindle. It is the most insane thing that Trump has done by far. If not even it is so crazy. The people around him are incompetent for allowing him to do this.
My email opponent, my fate, the detail it made me laugh the hardest in the washing put Tommy taxes
last night night is lost it when
Tuesday night, for an update on the unfolding situation. One top weight has aid simply texted reporter to fireworks emerging,
which I am I am just using for anything from now on, I'm sending people
fireworks chief and things are fucked up. They text
with and irrespective of the fireworks and measured.
Devil was actually Parker that got the fireworks emerging. That's I'm guessing in front of the potentially Parker, ok, so
other details have dribbled out of last couple days. The Wall Street Journal
what'd. They call me was concerned by information showing possible evidence of collusion, which has very serious, there's. Also reports that he they call me was
questing additional resources from the department of
is to pursue the rush investigation now Andrew cables.
That define the acting direct review,
yeah right now, who's testifying before Congress as we're recording. This said that he did not make an official request, but basically, he told
Senator Richard Burton Mark Warner, who were the heads of the Senate, Intel Committee that one
Things that was slowing down the
the was that he didn't have access to prosecutors at the department of Just
because rod risen, seen hadn't started yet
there is no one really leading the investigation it dear Jake is dear Jake. Sessions were accused himself so,
we know that that come,
he was looking for access to prosecutors, Addio J, to continue this investigation. We all
So no that egg
and jury in Virginia had subpoenaed records connected to Michael Flynn,
the former national security adviser. So a grand jury is now involved so feels like this
destination was probably gettin somewhere, because we don't know again
We have no idea what this investigation might uncover. All we know is that drums
to be doing everything possible
with no worries about how it looks to stop the investigation. That's all we know
Trump also said in the letter where he fired co me the combing had told Trump.
Three times the trump wasn't under investigation.
Of course, what I've been in violation of department of Justice protocols to not discuss
going investigations with the White House, particularly when the people in that White House our targets of the investigation and theirs
FBI officials on background. That said that that the trumps
in the coming told him he wasn't under investigation- was forcibly untrue that, firstly ensuring as again
firstly, for the history of that of the term presidency. That might be the title of this episode. Oh good cause could go there, we go, we got it, I was worried, but that ok, so what do we do about?
it's all. I mean this would be like riveting reality, television. If it was happening, another country was, unlike you know, the downfall of our public
but so now,
look to Congress to rein in the executive branches. You know
Absurd craziness here
I think it is an abuse of power, because the yes, the president, has the authority to fire. The F B, I director, absolutely that- is it's not illegal to do that- that is party
You do firing an FBI director whose investigating your campaign for possible
version with a foreign adversary does in fact see without
without naming a special power, encouraging the Deirdre to name a special prosecutor that
seem like an abuse of power. To me, do you think
he's a power potentially in peaceable abuse of power. I don't know
we should ask Russia that we are going to organise a lawyer on the phone and a little but a very well qualified, the very local. If I were you I'd aren't you have written down again who
who may have his lot agree from Trump University. So, let's let to Congress
republican reaction as usual bunch,
it is heroes there. So then
times has a very as a great feature. They're doing like a running list of water
well everyone in Congress is reactions are to this. So if you look at which
publicans have called for a special prosecutor. Zero number Republicans is called
called for an independent investigation or commission five
Senator Mccain and for congressmen. If you think
Verve Republicans, who have questions or concerns about what has happened numbers at thirty four. So
No one else really seems that worry,
a video of marker, Rubeus responsiveness, oh man,
Dana zayigo those I can handle he marker Rubio has become.
Yeah. Maybe we're not super fair to Marco Rubio all the time and we make fun of them and Lava CALL San Marcos River inside, but he is basically become the pod save America characters from self
he gets fired at some of that he's like air. Well, it happened Trump fire
It's his call when well
You know? Well, let's see where we go from here to the Hague.
We're just gonna, wait, we're gonna, say nothing and see which were the political winds blow, and then we will pick our position
really bad. It's like. I actually thought that the line
He grams of the world would be very upset about this. Now
twenty grams. You know
courageous on every issue by any means by on the
Russia's stuff he's at Lisbon a little better and he,
again. No, it's fine trump trump can do it. Every wants,
I don't know, I don't know what they're doing. I think the day there doing what the what they ve typically done so far in this administration, which is cowed everything,
tromp does because they want to move forward
legislative agenda to cut taxes for which people intake or healthcare from every one else, but doesn't seem like they're, really show a lot of courage here. Well, if
There have been all these Watergate, like throw backs
in IRAN. Articles were Watergate and people statements in the articles of impeachment air, which
be thinking that of Paul Ryan and Mitch. Mokanna with
leaders, the Republican Party during the time of Watergate Richard Nixon, would have finished. His term
and spoken at the next year's convention add be lionize. Is he here America words Leah? We rightly that right,
the went down as they were. There is by partisan concern about that. He had abuse power.
Yes and he was forced to resign for fear of being thrown out of office, but,
This is, then, we don't want to get like overly.
Surrender overwrought about this, but in the last two weeks here the Republicans passed a bill that affected a sixty economy without hearings without and
damn it without a process without even really the bill just jammed it through and didn't just have walked gone on tv and lied about what it meant just with no regard for the truth.
He presented States fires, the F B, I direct or something that was foreboding in Washington before this it was. It is
This is so far outside the political norms, fire. The FBI director, who was investigating him because he was
mad the investigation was still going on and then the Republican Party back some repeats is ridiculous.
He voices are to them and just as aside no to sigh notes, a reporter
questions of issues, a Secretary Tom Price in West Virginia about the bill. That would kick me for my people, health-
and they had that guy arrested and the argument was
well. He asked questions outside of designated press areas and then
furthermore, another alarming these new sedate trump is
started. A Vodafone commission headed by one of the worst people in Amerika, Kansas attorney general.
Chris Cuba, which is basically a he's, made only spend ideas to prevent you from putting this dialogue with he's busy
spend his career prosecuting voters.
I think the only merely one
a few cases, small misdemeanor fines for people voting, because they lived in two different places like like Steve, Bannon,
So, commissioner, on voter frauds define as thirty five million people who voted illegally the life. If one of the first big lies, he told us President also another
Gary thing. The census director abruptly quit, because you
and been Congress, wasn't giving him the necessary funds to complete the Sensus and twenty twenty. That's a big deal, because the sense
some twenty twenty in the sense of stricter, like figuring out
people in the country goes down.
Clay to Congress,
redistricting. It goes to resources
that. Go to various states
an enormous amount of power that comes with you now
the senses and what the sense it says that one Normous motor consequences that come with it to that was also very frightening. Our friend brain,
boiler front of the pod, has a great story about this. Today,
where he said absent consequences,
Trump will rightly feel liberated to appoint whoever he wants to run the IRS. When the current commissioners terms
buyers later this year more alarmingly, he will know that he can get away with ordering a crackdown on voting rights or investigations of his political enemies. When loyalty and corruption become job called
occasions for political appointees, the president will have the power
he needs to stifle protests, leaders, judges, the free press and political rivals.
He won't even have to make threats. Any is unimportant.
Point, because it's not authoritarianism that comes like we see in other countries with you. No overt threats like that. It is in
Basically he's everyone around him saying: Commie was fine,
because call me wasn't loyal and call me with
dependent and so
people now know that to work for
even in a quasi independent role or role that has traditionally been fiercely independent. You have to be loyal to him and if you're not, you get fired
Are you watching or have you watch the Handmaids tail on Hulu know em.
Emily has been watching it and she says that she likes like
scary chosen Suffolk, that she told me will be a little too much for me at TAT.
But I got a lot of Nigeria is Emily, learned had been monster and it fell different on Tuesday
such a premises. I won't get deep into it, but it's about a disturbing in future by it
America sort of stumble.
Into it with a couple of things that happen and before they know it. There are laws passed that women can work and you can and slave women, but it just happens kind of slowly and then that's the scale.
I am not saying that can happen here. Let's not yet nothing snowflake back off people, but
We are entering territory that the the guard rules of government are coming off pretty quickly. You know marks
to refuse bachelors top advisor for air tweeted
something to the effect of he. Never thought. He'd say this, but Democrats when in Congress may be the only thing they can save D.
Save as it gives to. The security of United States depends on a democratic Congress and twenty Tina
on Mccain's, John Mccain longest serving aid is speechwriter. This is the thing
it has been the skin.
Estimates that has happened since we ve been because I've
It's kind of believed that,
there are stopped gaps.
In the Middle EAST. There are things I think that would prevent Trump from actually starting like a major legs, would decide sort of launching Barton earthquake
there would be. The military has a process that sort of possibly atom
liberation of this, so that worries me better, but this is something and then there s a service policy. Its terrible policies affect people's lives, but this is something totally
opens the door to a new way of Israel, Emma figure
it is a thorough terrorism, aided and abetted by the by one of the co equal branches of government, the judge whether Jotham Congress has put it
on power the president and they are not, does that what they want to do? They want to give him as much power as possible on its. It is alarming on
a host of others, we're out like a hundred and ten days in here people that we are a long way to go
yeah, I mean where we can do anything in even people like my pants, who seems to be
really terrible in a lot of things, but he was a
when he was member of Congress. He is a far right by norm
all Ish Republican, and he just like you
fire. The FBI director do that. That seems normal like what the fuck
some poor environment. Remember we would not
we in this frightening situation were it not for the Republican Congress that we have the system
The system of government is not broken
checks and balances remain in place to stop this
and from his own lunatic incompetence, but the Republican Party,
the elected Republican Party in Washington has failed the United States of America. So incredibly,
by just letting all this happen. It is so pathetic and they all every last one
Them deserves to be voted out of office and twenty eighteen, and if we have a democratic Congress, we won't, I mean was
have to worry about plenty of things over. You know between twenty eighteen and twenty twenty. When, hopefully, we can like someone who's, not trump, but am
most of the abuses can be curtailed
by a congress that actually wants to check the power. The present and
We don't have Republicans want to do that right now. We don't.
The diner? What is the matter? What Donald Trump does they just? They do not want to stand up for it, but I think this changes the way Democrats after
this very week. Even I asked this question. This is the fabric question. Why didn't Democrats hold the funding? The government hostage to prevent. Why did that? Why did they? Why did they not refused to give their votes for funding and a government? Unless the Republicans debate,
preventing us from. While here no zero people answered us that wrangle person,
actual so that I saw another answer that urban areas, but this is the road Democrats, have to play hardball now like absolute hard
little united there. There was a story about like chuck tumors. Now we're gonna pull out all the procedural tricks to grant
and to a halt until a special prosecutors named re. So, yes,
they tried to pull some me, no judges,
down business they successfully dead. You know shimmer wisdom,
a bunch thing which is great Susan COM is all Madame slick. All this is ridiculous, and she's like a moderate in like this is stupid that were holding this up with theirs
story about it. Forget where but I'll retweeted about like what
Democrats haven't come no consensus on how to deal with this and someone
TIM Kane like. Oh, do you think the demo,
such a delay.
Thing in the Senate and hold up government till their special project
you turned him gains like. I don't know about that. I think we can walk untrue gum. At the same time, no, no TIM Kane. You should ever
the Democrats in the Senate should hold up government until a special prosecutors appointed and again it's like this
the prosecutor, may not find anything. This investigation may not uncover collusion. I don't wanna be one of those liberals are things like? Yes,
absolutely we're gonna, find out collusion with Roger trumps Goin down. There's a p tape. All that shit- I don't know I don't. I don't know where these people who think this, but like for the sake of
democracy and the institutions in this country, we have to have a space.
Prosecutor to give people faith at this into this investigation is being condemned.
With some semblance of independence, we have to have that. This is true,
me too much, but you knew who should really wanted it s, an independent prosecutor, Donald Donald Trump
yes, because now
when, whenever he wants is behind him, he claim
to believe he didn't do anything
and now, when his hand picked FBI director who will be rubber stamp by the public as in the Senate who,
who go immediately from the from has said
the five to the FBI office with when they come back in its if
We nothing really happened and they say that no one will believe it very special.
Prosecutor, who is democratic
Indorsed comes back and if nothing has happened, some Democrats will not believe at the sort of location. Louise Mench Democrats and I go live but the world, but it will be credible to a lot of people and you can put it behind yourself, but these are not the actions
like I don't. These are not the actions of a man who believes he's innocent.
And we ve been saved us along every time. You just keeps up any anti, but yet and there they are not. Ok, we're gonna get to Kathy
while waiting for us to give her a ring. So when we come back, we will have former one has come
Kathy Ruhmer don't go anywhere, is pod, save America and there's more on the way possible,
America has brought you buy, zip, recruiting known. I was wearing a day what the hat the Zapruder people gave me. I was dead.
From the water bottle. Really look at it's also, a very nice backpack have a lot of zip recruiter March and I'm using it and guess what quality
candidates have just come rolling in every everyone everywhere I go with the zebra could about back on yours. I leave my house, the backpacks empty by atomic at home. It's filled rather resonates. You lose your fellow. We are right to say that as a walking down the street, just have a different route me. If you want
and the perfect hire. You need to put your job on all the top jobs AIDS, and now you can with the procurator. You can put your job to tuna plus job sites, including social media networks like Facebook and Twitter, witches
all the single click find candidates in any city or industry nationwide, just post once, and what your call
candidates roll on into their easy to use interface. No juggling emails are calls to your office in quickly screen carried. You can write them. You hire the right person.
Find out today was it recruiter has been used by fortune. One hundred companies and thousands of
all and medium sized businesses and right now our listeners compose jobs and zip recruiter for free, but going to Super Gerda come such
cricket. You know who's resume beyond their now is evident.
James Commonplace, each Scully
perhaps as a whole, bunch of other candidates for them
have the director will soon get sacked by Donald Trump were posted there as Amazon's upper good or too. Are you looking for a seven four lawyer to self righteous resume? God is gaining
James call me, and he is available. Are you
Looking for someone who will slow the investigation of into her campaigns possible collusion with the foreign adversary go to.
God, you might entity,
by the way, by the way you might want to just leave that post open, because I have a feeling that there's gonna be several FBI directors coming available over the next couple of years, every six months, Merlin
he beer, John Merrick Island lifetime of appointments. I don't think you don't need to be taken this job, we're going to be fired me couple days. I don't know what it is, but it turns out Donald Trump investigators expire like milk or more
I have drafted for free, go to zip recruiter, dot com, slash crooked, born as a political commentary and adds pod. Save America is also brought Dubai
where a space, if you ever try to start your own website? You know what a hassle that can be, especially if you dont know what you're doing make your next move maker next website with Squares Bis Creed
beautiful website was. Christmas is only one platform, there's nothing to install Petra grid ever
provide a winning twenty four seven customer support and will help you get your own custom made with an experience, its fully transparent and simple, to set up scheme,
businesses by a wide range of creative people and businesses. Mozilla's. You wide range of these days news it down. You should leave as if that doesn't work.
Is used by a wide range of creative people and businesses. Some say too wide musicians, designers, artist, restaurants and more so make an move,
on your domain uncrated website the lunch. That idea is Africa Crooked, for ten percent of your first perch,
of website or domain, that's crooked for ten percent of your first purchase of a website or domain with square space
as always unpleasant America, thanks to our friends at square cash, the least annoying way to pay some back according to us, yeah,
Are there goes my outlook as model, but mainly us with the cat
sending and receiving money is free and fast? Must payments can be deposited directly to your bank account in just a few seconds just download the free catch up? Link your debit critic,
and send money to anyone with a phone number email address, we'll get him notification
just receive cash, which is not annoying at all
I always found. The other ones kind of intimidating, visible, complicated to use. I never set up your arm, but I want the world now. I say I am what I tell you: you, Google Sean's measures name, it's like a look. This is where he bought all that on matching shoes, as we already but enough balls to Philip get the catch up in the abstract or Google plates a day boom square gash who really like it. I like it
on the today, we have the former weight has council for President Barack Obama friend of the pod, Cathy Rumbler.
We welcome the show. How are you going to be here?
we are happy to have you. Finally, so
What what do you think of a healthier, the crazy,
situation we are in today s early report said that a
began who's the White House Council, the job that you had four Barack Obama,
one of the few AIDS, the Trump confided in about his decision to fire. James call me and advised him to
This could you imagine advising president today to do this or that have been your legal advice ever really. It is unbelievable
I mean I don't. I don't even know where to begin to describe for life, I shock and awe and outrage in anger and sadness about the way the whole thing was handled that can't you requested
I can't imagine ever doing that advice and you all work with me for a number of years, and you know there's no chance in Hell. I would have ever given the president's the advice that he should turn it. The FBI director, in that in the course of an ongoing investigation, and I'm certainly not then no provide what I think, you're pretty transparent,
the technical reasons for doing so, and just what would you said right because a bunch of us political people, communications people,
would have been there saying. The opposite
So doing this are completely fucking insane.
But I'm sure you would have given more measured legal advice.
You know what would you say like besides the obvious objects of this, what are some of the problems with doing this? Well, of course, the president made people suddenly,
correct is that of the legal matter. The president has the authority to terminate the FBI director, as he does any other member of the cabinet and
You know that so without any legally has that option- and am I if I were to revise the present, I would have told them you legally have the option to do so. Really, for any reason areas as Jim come, he said in his resignation letter and he's right about that with that said
There are a number of other constraints on the president's exercise of that forty, including political constraints. Most importantly surf prudential constraints, the weather, it sort of the right thing.
Do in and what I mean by that is, you know, is it doing it in particular, in doing it at this time and in this way, in a very few hurried manner, message in a way that you know through fell apart, isn't the narrative that they try to put out to have fallen apart? You know, within the first kind of
six hours after the fact you Know- is just the undermines everybody's confidence in kind of the legitimacy of these institutions, which is your bad for the White House, it's bad for the country. It's certainly bad for the FBI.
For the Justice Department, though those are the things that I would emphasise here to the president and thing if you wanted, you know it's look. If you want to do this, the chemistry not write it. You don't have confidence in the end. The FBI director lets you now take our time
think about what information we need to inform. That decision
When is an appropriate time to do it, and there are lots of things that you know that that President Obama wanted to do either personnel.
Wise or otherwise, that he he was constrained from doing so, because the circumstances weren't right and the tiny wasn't right? If the reason Trump did this with something
was very clear that he was concerned about this investigation in his goal was to stop it do
he, and the people around him exposed himself the legal risk for trying to stop investigation like this. Well, it's a great question.
The answer is, maybe you know it depends on what the fact would be: a dead, the legal fury, the of law
ability would be an obstruction of justice theory in here in our guard
story equally, where, where folks have gotten into trouble Rama,
and of criminal perspective in these in these types of situation, but I ain't even think. Of course everything is like every day. There's some euro completely novel situation that comes up in a Trump administration, but if you think back to
the? U S, a turning firing, which would you all remember- and I think your many of your listeners will remember
What what happened there? They are actually
was a special council who was appointed by attorney general crazy. Her name is nor Dan. He and she was at the time the acting you as the terrain for the District of Connecticut. She was
appointed to investigate whether or not senior government officials had
essentially lied about the reason for why these? U s a trees were fired and
you know had lied to Congress. It light in in either test
money or in other types of statements to Congress, and
no. You know that now is a multi Malta year investigation that ultimately didn't conclude and included in no charges being brought by didn't conclude Intel, as I will call either to tell the nine or two thousand can be a well into the Obama administration. Can you
little bit about Wyatt Democrats are calling for a special prosecutor, talk about little bit further listeners like what a special prosecutor rays and what that means for folks. Yet, though, most people think about it settled,
Peter and you, those of us who are old enough to remember. We we think about, can star, and there were
quite a number of other independent council appointed under under a law, a statute that existed at the time that had a sunset provision.
This means that it had in order to sustain existence. It had to be renewed in and it was not renewed and so that,
that legal apparatus to appoint someone like a can start? Who is truly independent from the Justice Department? No longer exists, though, when people are talking now
that a special council whether talking out is that the UN.
The attorney general or in this case the acting attorney general for purposes of this matter, because Jeff Sessions has accused, does have the authority to appoint a special council, and that have been done, and it has been done not frequently, but it has been done in the past couple of administrations. It was, it was done, as I mentioned, the attorney general crazy did it with with the: U S attorney firing investigation. He also did it with respect to the destruction of the CIA videotape of fun. You know, enhanced interrogation techniques being implemented. Do doubt is that the special council there was a guy named John Durham
respected senior prosecutor and and of course, Jim call me himself did it in the in scooter living matter and evaluate plain weak investigation, and he appointed Puppets Gerald, though there is definitely precedent for doing it. It is, it is a decision that rests with, in this case with rest with rod, road and time
whether or not it is appropriate in this case. But the thing to remember is that that person by the special council dill ultimately reports to the deputy attorney general, so the it's it's it's not exact.
Independent in the way that we all think about it,
Can the independent council days with someone like a star
It's a little bit more independent invited. You know that there are still unsupervised and report to in this case it s the attorney general slippers and could be fired. Just like coming referred correct, that's exactly right,
which were you surprised that sessions who had refused himself was
wrote a memo, a butter trump about firing, call me or about commies?
no miss handling the Clinton investigation? Wasn't that
You have not done that because you accuse himself from his manner. Well, I think that raises questions that should be asked, and I would expect that he knows the oversight committees will ask that question and what was the scope of their were? There were cues Owen, who did he get
I'd and found that this this would you know it's ok away and on a personal matter, while also being over accused from from obviously not to rush investigation, but he also said he would be procured from anything relating to two Hillary Clinton. I can see the argument for is to add to Y ever Cuba wooden apply to him weighing on in on a weighty matters such as whether the FBI director should be terminated or not
but I think it's it's a real question, and I think that I saw some reporting this morning that that chairmanship of the house, oversight and government Reform Committee has asked the inspector general to expand its investigation.
Or whether or not the F B, I handled the Hillary Clinton email investigation appropriately to
now include questions about whether or not the termination of the FBI
director with had frankly so and- and I would not be surprised at All- and I think it would actually be quite appropriate for the inspector general to expand his investigation to also include that, though, you know we far from
If the goal here from the White House was, you know to try to rip dvd
off and move on from these pesky FBI matters. I think they did not accomplish that mission,
rod, Rosen Stones, memo that he wrote
sessions. Surprise you mean he says he detailed, of course, all the ways that he believed that
call me mishandled the Clinton, email investigation and those of his
rationale for rum. Hidden directly recommend is firing, but that was the rationale that the White House gave to debt
The man was a prize use that typical, it's not typical, and I did the prize mean it did surprised me because it it largely cited through validation from opinion writers outside of the department and none of whom presumably really understood exactly what factors went into director com.
Decision making it. So I was surprised by the memo. I thought it. It was a very strange mammal
a strange- this is a matter process to have a memo. Come over have come.
I'll. Come over to the White House from the Department of Justice I mean you know the deputy attorney general reports to the attorney general, so we normally when you have a recommendation from the Department of Justice that comes from the attorney general, though to me that was pretty transparent, that they were trying to do. Use broad Rothstein, as you know, as a sort of political cover. If you will, because he said you know a career prosecutor Obese, I swear I interpret. It is worth noting
nurse. I said you you're a former prosecutor and involves in taking down Enron and lots of other very important cases as a former prosecutor, how it outlets puts, let's presume per second, that no one appoint a special council, an Trump
this handpicked FBI director? Is it possible, in this scenario, to actually conduct a thorough invest?
nation and then our prosecution of what's going on here, if there is a crime, is founders, this sort of crippled. In this scenario, I think it is possible- and I think it
It will be done and the you know that the agency, the FBI or are, I think, not gonna, be deterred from following leads
if this action, but where it matters- and this is why the New York Times during yesterday, significant on this question in your get under three when I see in the newspaper but dad died, the director of director call me went to the department and ask for additional resources. If that's true, that's quite significant
because you cases get made or not made based on how many resources get dedicated to them. We were able to do the Enron investigation and we re able to prosecute the senior many thing your executives at that company successfully, because we we got enormous manner, resources. You know from the FBI and from the department and wheat there's no way we could have made that case. If we had, we had less resources, and so you know that's not that's not back see in terms of explanation.
But it's real. It really matters. If you accuse agents I find to a matter, it's gonna be a hell of a lot harder to make a case than if you have five eight and find, though
You know in any half, did you get the policymakers and so that, at the level of the director of the FBI, the level of the deputy turning general,
They have to make decisions about how to allocate resources and where folks should be spending their time, and so you know, who's who are in those seats really makes a difference in that respect. More so than that, they're dead, that someone would say you don't stop, stop investigating or we don't like, where your
when politically for stop doing, not because I want to tell you that the career men and women in the FBI, they will not put up with that and that Wall Day within you know the walls of the bureau. If that were to happen,
how do you think combing handled the booklet investigation? Obviously, he took some unusual step
during the email investigation, both in Poland, the Prescott
Prince in July, send in the letter to Congress, do
who, with his assessment assessment that he had no choice, he was equally
Conseil or or you know,
let Congress know what was happening, or what do you think about that? I agreed with this assessment that he had a very easy out. He had a very tough choice and I had an open
Zerns again, I'm on the outside. So I don't know everything that you know people inside, for grappling with and and and having sat in those seats and having been subject to a bunch of criticism myself, I'm always Lowe's to to criticise without having the full facts
with that said, you know it was due to the manner in which that investigation with was handled. These would be the public,
where's, unorthodox and- and I think you know you you guys know you worked with me for a long time. You know I'd, I tend to be very process oriented. I tend to be quite traditionalist when it comes to following norms in tradition, because I think that it is those those norms are developed for the hard cases not for the easy cases, and you know I, like many other lungs of the department, had real questions about why there at least seem to be a departure from some of the traditional norms about how prosecutors decline, cases and know what types of extra kind of extra comments.
Appropriate to make and in no those are some of the things that were laid out in recent times, memo which I think a lot of folks again, just without knowing all the facts, the lot of a lot of justice, criminal em, they would say, yeah those concerns you know now with that said, the inspector general at the just farming is looking at this.
The issue, though, why in the world? Wouldn't you wait for the inspector general who is gonna interview? You know the agents that the bureau who's gonna talk to people whose gonna look at these internal correspondence and and reach informed conclusions about that. Why would you you know basically just cut the inspector generals? Investigation often say you. I've concluded, based on the commentary of folks in the newspaper that without appropriate that that that puzzling to me,
very good question that the way has refuses to answer Cathy. Thank you so much for joining us and explaining this to us, and I and thank you for
keeping us honest all those years, keeping us out of trouble
that's really gonna part, since we left the White House- and we didn't have you watching over us
I can only. I can only imagine what kind of MR they all
Men two things were going on: the shock has become out again soon. Are, I think,
like I, Don T care a right but ok,
thanks again to Cathy Rumbler for joining floods. Have America today, and everyone have a grey weekend, will talk to it by guys.
Transcript generated on 2020-04-03.