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“Literally farcical.”


Trump fires FBI Director Jim Comey in the middle of an investigation involving the Trump campaign’s potential collusion with Russia, and gets plenty of support from Republicans in Congress. Then, former White House Counsel Kathy Ruemmler joins Jon and Dan to talk about the legal implications of the Comey firing.

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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Gotta boy apron that comes live crooked, Barbara, calm such crooked blue Britain is about welcome to plug save America. I'm John Favour Andean Pfeiffer. On the blood They we have former White House counsel in front of the pod Cathy rumbler he's gonna, take all about her legal advice and in such situation that were now, and you should also check out parts of the world from yesterday, Tommy woke up: I've thirty in the morning and did an impromptu interview with former Department of Justice, spokesman, Matt Miller about James Comey's firing so go check that and tomorrow Friday, on with friends these ANA clocks talks Ben how I never. I'm conservative. Where some advice for the left about the tea party successes and failures.
And I shall suggest a brain Jensen, but of uncle Trump so check that out tomorrow and then of course, Wednesday. Once they may seventeenth. We will all be it. The ace hotel, in LOS Angeles, with our special guest, mere Eric are setting, so that should be fun. I'm excited get out, I will see if the LA crowd is lit. Is it San proud? I'm telling you, I hope, not I was somethin right there we do in my hometown, proud. We should one day like we should have but have contest where whoever might cause the most voters are Naxa Mostar, as we will give them acts so the San Francisco LIVE show, given I mean, it's nothing for us to be embarrassed about. I want everyone to know that I'm have five. We are. We were amazing. Let me be very clear: it's the questioners! It we're protecting the court here. Ok, so I think there's a little bit going on in the news today.
Talking about what a clusterfuck I want you to know that I came up with that term. Yesterday, clusterfuck they give her priming upon this conversation unbelievable. I can we're talking about Trump, claiming that it came up with the phrase, the pump in an interview with the economist of all places which at you I like you. Suddenly, the transcript this morning is like six, a m and, unlike reinterred like there's too much to focus, I can't read another interview where Donald Trump Sound. Like fucking Moura. Tat lay economists was quite a thing. The time magazine interview where he brought time report had them time over the river, for course dinner and and brought them aunt. You show them some. He was very proud of the sixty. Screen TV there he had added to the president's private study in his tv. Because he he records cords all the morning daytime cable shows and then he plays them back. Can get angry late at night,
very well. Maybe he doesn't right, then it makes a perhaps harassed decisions right like firing the director the FBI, which is what will be talking about. So this have on Tuesday we were having a crooked media retreat, so we had no laptops. No funds we're all sitting at the table time to plan the future, the company, and then we took a break in someone saw that this this news alert came up that come with fire, we all turned on cable. We are on CNN and there in one of the forty five boxes on the screen was Dan Pfeiffer. I now I was, This is pretty good, so I went about fifteen to twenty minutes before the news happened. I was already scheduled to see an end in a fortuitous momentum. Lao arbiter, and I was doing a call with producer in the topic was going to be comin
about is. This was on the heels of the co me testimony area and the criticism of co me for Miss stating my lady having emails ended up on whom Aberdeen laptop right so the question the Bruce or Ass Macy's. Do you think call me should be fired and he said that's insane the heavy, that's the judge, the area actors, the one official in Washington. We can't be fire, they serve tenure terms, you apps, Give me a moot point. We should even talk about it. Handkerchief you're pretty get about high school, honest rapid. Another on how things work in DC I doubt at my desk- looked at my at my phone, and then my phone exploded, and if I went back and look at our strain over this that we have Tommy and so and better roads, and could I get in It's just me saying holy shit. And then you saying wow all we can celebrate. That's really funny,
though you worked, so you are one of those Democrats. That said absolutely should be fire and have lost confidence in him. No, I I hope I time I'm gonna where we would like us on keeping sixteen hundred, but I hope with ever the it in the middle of the coma fiasco. When the Democrats or say hurry, fire bisection Hilary, obviously can't fire like that's insane like. Why reason sameness? Of course he can't be fired, he's the FBI director and it was it just it was so insane so like I am one of the few Democrats. I guess who can defend his twenty sixteen statements about this, but even with the Democrats said, is a relevant to what actual to one. Why, when actual happened. You also like I just remember thinking I was is unbelievable, we passed when call me, you know, release the letter a week before the election. I thought it was crazy. I've been unbelievably critical of it, but as soon as Trump become President like I was instantly thinking
Of course he needs to keep communist job, because the last thing we want in the world is a fucking trump pick for the FBI, like feeling we ve also known that from the from day one you know a worse it be like boat detail. Rang usually earlier some fact news contributor right, it seems like no one might look whatever call delinquent whatever he screwed up like it made us all mad but like in no way without us, but that somehow be worse than a person. The trump would point to the F B. I mean when he had, pick for dear J. We have Fucking Jeff sessions now, so you know, win win Trump, Sally Yeats. Yahoo is the acting attorney general, who refused to infer says muslim Ban in it a lot of he went around. This is like Watergate. There's like Watergate: it really was it right, it was. It was acting attorney general either. He was, he should not a fired her. She was has been proven right by multiple courts, raw both,
in Hawaii and on the mainland. U s the hidden! She made the right decision by this is like some evil overstated case back then, but when you fire, the person who is in charge of investigating you for colluding with Russia to tilt the election in your favour? That's when the Watergate they doesn't seem so crazy. No, it makes Watergate. Look like a technicality. I mean Jesus Christ we so before before we get into the five billion white has sources who led to the New York Times in the Washington Post. Let s start with. What's on the public record, maybe are not inclined to believe the millions and millions of sources or leaking soap. Over the last commie has a testified. Is absolutely no evidence to support trumps lie the Ike Obama wiretapped him and be testify that the FBI is investigating whether people on the trump came
in colluded with Russia to interfere with the twenty sixteen elections, Trump hated. That call me said these things. How do we know that, while He tweeted about it constantly over and over again from tweeted about how the Russia of Investigation was fake news about how history we can approve him about the wiretapping claim, last week from tweeted that former international intelligence, James Clapper, said that there was no evidence of clue and even of those and an old quote from clapper, because he left the government for months ago. So we have no knowledge of an FBI investigation and then Drumhead, an aid actual paced his tweet about clapper on his twitter background. Remember that was just like yesterday or two days ago, so we know? So you know he was fairly testy about this and then of course, on Tuesday he fires coming in by bizarre rationale. For it I mean it's it's so funny,
the when I was on CNN Satellites, Argo, what the rationale wise yeah- as you know, was that James Commie Head in Sarah Huckabee the UN spices just placement in waiting here. So hungry, though it has precedent, deputy president said they call me, committed quote atrocities in his investigation of Hillary Clinton females so that the rationale That would be a regional rationale. We have since changed it. Yes, it Jim crow me as a pole, Pied FBI, directors right, that's about I mean so originally Originally the way has said the Trump decided to fire calmly, because the attorney General Jeff sessions and the debt the attorney general rod risen recommended it. So you have a memo from Rosen. Seen that says, all the ways that come broke with love
standing Department of Justice policy in his handling of Hilary email, investigation and Jack quickly. And was with Pretty. General sessions allowed to be involved in matters including the rush investigation. Nobody He refused himself because he lied to Congress about meeting with the russian ambassador. Yes, at of, who is known by many to be part of russian intelligence ride and because because he neglected to tell Congress that when he was asked, if he had met with any Russians, he accused himself from any matters related to the russian instigation accept, when he decided to write a memo recommended The firing of the man who is leading the investigation has just eyes, went get all these things are there so that's very normal, very normal, so rose unseen, writes a memo two sessions sessions, then writes a memo to Trump and and then and then Trump fires them troubles
So then, burdened by Wednesday the white has said actually trump. Has been thinking about firing commie since November and became strongly inclined after his testimony last week, which doesn't really hold up with the fact that then you they do pity attorney general writes a memo a couple days. For the firing about all the things he did in the Hillary Clinton Investigation right. Add that no one zero people believe this zero, while they just leaving the White House, the story? The White House contradicted the white has forget about all the sources forget about whether you believe the fake news or not the White House, fucking change their store it. Yes, they They did. I will give you my freshman year they not handled as well. That is there so much about this. That is worth taking apart ride. Rosans did, I don't know
all I know is that he was voted unanimously by the Senate. Obviously we don't agree with him on many many things, but he I believe, a pretty sterling reputation in the weird by partisan clumsiness. That is like ivy, educated liars and he basically decided like do he's only when the job for a couple weeks now, I think tat to take the years of work that he has been building up this reputation, serving as a clear to a judge- is a: U S. Attorney a prosecutor in lighting it on fire for Donald Trump So bizarre. I dont, I would love to know. What's going on and rod remonstrance mine, while there and in the Washington Post masterpiece that will get to shortly Matthew sources close to ride was seen say he threatened to quit only threatened to quit all who gives a fuck quit or don't
Where do not bug me with sources close to you, with your background, quotes about how you you you threatened to quit because you been rendered the bus for this. Well, yes, we recently iniquitous because apparently in the first, is this. The Trump administration said: oh, it was all Rosen Stiens doing he was the one read the memo recommending the fire. Of commie and Trump just went along with the memo rose. Seen heard this got really pissed threatened to quit. I don't know why he didn't follow through with it of course today the OJ said that spoke, the official spokesperson, the department just said: no, no, that's categorically falls. He never continent for adequate. Yet we believe everything you say so how somebody yeah. You didn't go through with it for some reason, maybe because he is already saw the soul to the devil. That is down it is this. Is the person? Is the person personal depending on to appoint a special prosecutor? Rough this is pod. Save America stick around more great show coming away, but the very
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so we go through these talks but want them both in your Tabs national post at the Washington Post. One is really the masterpiece, even though both are quite good the trunk made up his mind during around of Gulf in New Jersey over the weekend. Actually, technically before and after the golf round when he was watching cable and as he does, we may get the television as he does you just looking through the diva there's like ninety eight percent so he had to clear out some old morning job hazards. And what did he come across things? A jam call me said the maiden very angry, similar so goes back to DC on Monday. Any tells done, again, who is the white, has council Jack commissioner, his grafting son in LAW and MIKE Pence, the vice president, and you tell them. He wants to move forward and fire call me
one stops him. No one tries to stop him. There's some reports that the ban in previous thought that the timing was off that maybe he should wait a little bit but no When was really against this. And so he then has session and Rosen Steen right up the mammals and and he fired them and then and then no one in the West wing knows until about an hour before this happens, the communications team is alerted. You always want to tell your communications team that your firing, the FBI director about an hour before you do. It gives a lot of time to prepare a social issue, Spacer and in the communication the directive were alerted an hour before the news, as announced most West Wing AIDS didn't know it all they just found out when their when there I got. You know breaking news alerts. And then the whole thing happen in Johns by sir you wouldn't I gotcha space or in the bushes because
I wasn't paying much engine the news yesterday I was very busy and then I like looked on twitter and everything but shut, there's like a whole bunch of chance by Sir bushes means- and I had no idea what's going on here. Let's do add, Tik Tok of shots, basic safety so late in the afternoon. I think he might a brief that the Arab League some are on renewables or federally. No, but anyway he gets caught in the oval office with by dubbed key, usually went on communication structure who know and he's like your cash or no one's ever heard his voice receipt his face, they dont know who he is and say we're fire in the general are that if yet are accurate, here's what we're doing some unreal The statement spacer whose computer descended statement to the press but for some reason and is at an english ancestors small. Sometimes the technology does not work awesome and the White House. I e health care knack of this. Eight minutes not sending out fast enough, so he, according to reports, he go
was to the briefing room, opens the door yells the news closes, the door goes back to his office walks. There's a or that blocks where the press work in The pressure to research that is always open. Yahoo the door, because in his office hides in his office watch our help break loose Donald is eating DE goes home to eat a well done steak with ketchup. That's my address. I actually, it I didn't put us right, but it is assuming that to be the case in his watch. And keep others, and he is surprised and concerned to find that people think there's a big deal and gets very upset he since signal down to his staff through unaware, like through a raven or he author, Canada String and are really now entail. Then that he once is people on tv defending him, so they go down to the basement, where they have lock income over the last few months unlock or take her out. Spacer goes
tv and so Spacer goes out to the north wind and from the White House to do some fox interviews essentially preacher, the choir the prey, Who can get into answers to no questions sees that fact that chance by Sir is right outside on tv. So they gather the few smart, collective actions, the press it ever taken and they gather waiting for him to come off the tv. He basically hides in the bushes, so they can't interview him and they are now demanding answer our questions as our questions, and he through an aid says he will take questions but not on care. But while he saw hiding in the bushes and then demands that tvs turn the lights off, so it will be in the dark and therefore they can't use the footage of him. Mean this is a sign that charge my there's not going to this job because of course, there can use a photo. She just gonna look sketchy in the dark ones: the its go off. He steps,
the bushes in his of turtle, surrounded by some his head out. Like a like some sort of turtle, had answers questions than runs back into the West way and hides never to be seen again. Six more we the stonewalling so the whole thing is so good. I mean you in these reports Europe is very upset his communication steam very very upset. He blames them for this. He there are reports that here Actively thinking about firing, spies and replacing them with Sarah could be centres we can get to in a minute. And wild, whilst by rolled away, unlike on his naval reserve duty. Thank you for your service on the fifth. That's Really, ninety robust here's, the thing about into defend. Judgments are for the first time in the last I'm on this bad. This is not his fault; no, I don't it's not by the only gave him an hour in It would be an insane amount of time to announce the press its position on trees
rotational for, like you need time you things, but they could have in him a decade refer, they can back in time in total by sir. Two thousand and seven to prepare. For this moment, we have heard is its on fucking spindle. It is the most insane thing that Trump has done by far. If not even it is so crazy. The people around him are incompetent for allowing him to do this. My email opponent, my fate, the detail it made me laugh the hardest in the washing put Tommy taxes last night night is lost it when Tuesday night, for an update on the unfolding situation. One top weight has aid simply texted reporter to fireworks emerging, which I am I am just using for anything from now on, I'm sending people fireworks chief and things are fucked up. They text that too
with and irrespective of the fireworks and measured. Devil was actually Parker that got the fireworks emerging. That's I'm guessing in front of the potentially Parker, ok, so other details have dribbled out of last couple days. The Wall Street Journal what'd. They call me was concerned by information showing possible evidence of collusion, which has very serious, there's. Also reports that he they call me was questing additional resources from the department of is to pursue the rush investigation now Andrew cables. That define the acting direct review, yeah right now, who's testifying before Congress as we're recording. This said that he did not make an official request, but basically, he told Senator Richard Burton Mark Warner, who were the heads of the Senate, Intel Committee that one Things that was slowing down the the was that he didn't have access to prosecutors at the department of Just because rod risen, seen hadn't started yet
there is no one really leading the investigation it dear Jake is dear Jake. Sessions were accused himself so, we know that that come, he was looking for access to prosecutors, Addio J, to continue this investigation. We all So no that egg and jury in Virginia had subpoenaed records connected to Michael Flynn, the former national security adviser. So a grand jury is now involved so feels like this destination was probably gettin somewhere, because we don't know again We have no idea what this investigation might uncover. All we know is that drums to be doing everything possible with no worries about how it looks to stop the investigation. That's all we know Trump also said in the letter where he fired co me the combing had told Trump. Three times the trump wasn't under investigation. Of course, what I've been in violation of department of Justice protocols to not discuss
going investigations with the White House, particularly when the people in that White House our targets of the investigation and theirs FBI officials on background. That said that that the trumps in the coming told him he wasn't under investigation- was forcibly untrue that, firstly ensuring as again firstly, for the history of that of the term presidency. That might be the title of this episode. Oh good cause could go there, we go, we got it, I was worried, but that ok, so what do we do about? it's all. I mean this would be like riveting reality, television. If it was happening, another country was, unlike you know, the downfall of our public but so now, look to Congress to rein in the executive branches. You know Absurd craziness here I think it is an abuse of power, because the yes, the president, has the authority to fire. The F B, I director, absolutely that- is it's not illegal to do that- that is party You do firing an FBI director whose investigating your campaign for possible
version with a foreign adversary does in fact see without without naming a special power, encouraging the Deirdre to name a special prosecutor that seem like an abuse of power. To me, do you think he's a power potentially in peaceable abuse of power. I don't know we should ask Russia that we are going to organise a lawyer on the phone and a little but a very well qualified, the very local. If I were you I'd aren't you have written down again who who may have his lot agree from Trump University. So, let's let to Congress republican reaction as usual bunch, it is heroes there. So then times has a very as a great feature. They're doing like a running list of water well everyone in Congress is reactions are to this. So if you look at which publicans have called for a special prosecutor. Zero number Republicans is called called for an independent investigation or commission five
Senator Mccain and for congressmen. If you think Verve Republicans, who have questions or concerns about what has happened numbers at thirty four. So No one else really seems that worry, a video of marker, Rubeus responsiveness, oh man, Dana zayigo those I can handle he marker Rubio has become. Yeah. Maybe we're not super fair to Marco Rubio all the time and we make fun of them and Lava CALL San Marcos River inside, but he is basically become the pod save America characters from self he gets fired at some of that he's like air. Well, it happened Trump fire It's his call when well You know? Well, let's see where we go from here to the Hague. We're just gonna, wait, we're gonna, say nothing and see which were the political winds blow, and then we will pick our position really bad. It's like. I actually thought that the line He grams of the world would be very upset about this. Now
twenty grams. You know courageous on every issue by any means by on the Russia's stuff he's at Lisbon a little better and he, again. No, it's fine trump trump can do it. Every wants, I don't know, I don't know what they're doing. I think the day there doing what the what they ve typically done so far in this administration, which is cowed everything, tromp does because they want to move forward legislative agenda to cut taxes for which people intake or healthcare from every one else, but doesn't seem like they're, really show a lot of courage here. Well, if There have been all these Watergate, like throw backs in IRAN. Articles were Watergate and people statements in the articles of impeachment air, which be thinking that of Paul Ryan and Mitch. Mokanna with leaders, the Republican Party during the time of Watergate Richard Nixon, would have finished. His term
and spoken at the next year's convention add be lionize. Is he here America words Leah? We rightly that right, the went down as they were. There is by partisan concern about that. He had abuse power. Yes and he was forced to resign for fear of being thrown out of office, but, This is, then, we don't want to get like overly. Surrender overwrought about this, but in the last two weeks here the Republicans passed a bill that affected a sixty economy without hearings without and damn it without a process without even really the bill just jammed it through and didn't just have walked gone on tv and lied about what it meant just with no regard for the truth. He presented States fires, the F B, I direct or something that was foreboding in Washington before this it was. It is This is so far outside the political norms, fire. The FBI director, who was investigating him because he was
mad the investigation was still going on and then the Republican Party back some repeats is ridiculous. He voices are to them and just as aside no to sigh notes, a reporter questions of issues, a Secretary Tom Price in West Virginia about the bill. That would kick me for my people, health- and they had that guy arrested and the argument was well. He asked questions outside of designated press areas and then furthermore, another alarming these new sedate trump is started. A Vodafone commission headed by one of the worst people in Amerika, Kansas attorney general. Chris Cuba, which is basically a he's, made only spend ideas to prevent you from putting this dialogue with he's busy spend his career prosecuting voters. I think the only merely one a few cases, small misdemeanor fines for people voting, because they lived in two different places like like Steve, Bannon,
So, commissioner, on voter frauds define as thirty five million people who voted illegally the life. If one of the first big lies, he told us President also another Gary thing. The census director abruptly quit, because you and been Congress, wasn't giving him the necessary funds to complete the Sensus and twenty twenty. That's a big deal, because the sense some twenty twenty in the sense of stricter, like figuring out people in the country goes down. Clay to Congress, redistricting. It goes to resources that. Go to various states an enormous amount of power that comes with you now the senses and what the sense it says that one Normous motor consequences that come with it to that was also very frightening. Our friend brain, boiler front of the pod, has a great story about this. Today, where he said absent consequences, Trump will rightly feel liberated to appoint whoever he wants to run the IRS. When the current commissioners terms
buyers later this year more alarmingly, he will know that he can get away with ordering a crackdown on voting rights or investigations of his political enemies. When loyalty and corruption become job called occasions for political appointees, the president will have the power he needs to stifle protests, leaders, judges, the free press and political rivals. He won't even have to make threats. Any is unimportant. Point, because it's not authoritarianism that comes like we see in other countries with you. No overt threats like that. It is in Basically he's everyone around him saying: Commie was fine, because call me wasn't loyal and call me with dependent and so people now know that to work for even in a quasi independent role or role that has traditionally been fiercely independent. You have to be loyal to him and if you're not, you get fired Are you watching or have you watch the Handmaids tail on Hulu know em. Emily has been watching it and she says that she likes like
scary chosen Suffolk, that she told me will be a little too much for me at TAT. But I got a lot of Nigeria is Emily, learned had been monster and it fell different on Tuesday such a premises. I won't get deep into it, but it's about a disturbing in future by it America sort of stumble. Into it with a couple of things that happen and before they know it. There are laws passed that women can work and you can and slave women, but it just happens kind of slowly and then that's the scale. I am not saying that can happen here. Let's not yet nothing snowflake back off people, but We are entering territory that the the guard rules of government are coming off pretty quickly. You know marks to refuse bachelors top advisor for air tweeted something to the effect of he. Never thought. He'd say this, but Democrats when in Congress may be the only thing they can save D.
Save as it gives to. The security of United States depends on a democratic Congress and twenty Tina on Mccain's, John Mccain longest serving aid is speechwriter. This is the thing it has been the skin. Estimates that has happened since we ve been because I've It's kind of believed that, there are stopped gaps. In the Middle EAST. There are things I think that would prevent Trump from actually starting like a major legs, would decide sort of launching Barton earthquake there would be. The military has a process that sort of possibly atom liberation of this, so that worries me better, but this is something and then there s a service policy. Its terrible policies affect people's lives, but this is something totally opens the door to a new way of Israel, Emma figure
it is a thorough terrorism, aided and abetted by the by one of the co equal branches of government, the judge whether Jotham Congress has put it on power the president and they are not, does that what they want to do? They want to give him as much power as possible on its. It is alarming on a host of others, we're out like a hundred and ten days in here people that we are a long way to go yeah, I mean where we can do anything in even people like my pants, who seems to be really terrible in a lot of things, but he was a when he was member of Congress. He is a far right by norm all Ish Republican, and he just like you fire. The FBI director do that. That seems normal like what the fuck some poor environment. Remember we would not we in this frightening situation were it not for the Republican Congress that we have the system The system of government is not broken
checks and balances remain in place to stop this and from his own lunatic incompetence, but the Republican Party, the elected Republican Party in Washington has failed the United States of America. So incredibly, by just letting all this happen. It is so pathetic and they all every last one Them deserves to be voted out of office and twenty eighteen, and if we have a democratic Congress, we won't, I mean was have to worry about plenty of things over. You know between twenty eighteen and twenty twenty. When, hopefully, we can like someone who's, not trump, but am most of the abuses can be curtailed by a congress that actually wants to check the power. The present and We don't have Republicans want to do that right now. We don't. The diner? What is the matter? What Donald Trump does they just? They do not want to stand up for it, but I think this changes the way Democrats after
this very week. Even I asked this question. This is the fabric question. Why didn't Democrats hold the funding? The government hostage to prevent. Why did that? Why did they? Why did they not refused to give their votes for funding and a government? Unless the Republicans debate, preventing us from. While here no zero people answered us that wrangle person, actual so that I saw another answer that urban areas, but this is the road Democrats, have to play hardball now like absolute hard little united there. There was a story about like chuck tumors. Now we're gonna pull out all the procedural tricks to grant and to a halt until a special prosecutors named re. So, yes, they tried to pull some me, no judges, down business they successfully dead. You know shimmer wisdom, a bunch thing which is great Susan COM is all Madame slick. All this is ridiculous, and she's like a moderate in like this is stupid that were holding this up with theirs
story about it. Forget where but I'll retweeted about like what Democrats haven't come no consensus on how to deal with this and someone TIM Kane like. Oh, do you think the demo, such a delay. Thing in the Senate and hold up government till their special project you turned him gains like. I don't know about that. I think we can walk untrue gum. At the same time, no, no TIM Kane. You should ever the Democrats in the Senate should hold up government until a special prosecutors appointed and again it's like this the prosecutor, may not find anything. This investigation may not uncover collusion. I don't wanna be one of those liberals are things like? Yes, absolutely we're gonna, find out collusion with Roger trumps Goin down. There's a p tape. All that shit- I don't know I don't. I don't know where these people who think this, but like for the sake of democracy and the institutions in this country, we have to have a space. Prosecutor to give people faith at this into this investigation is being condemned. With some semblance of independence, we have to have that. This is true,
me too much, but you knew who should really wanted it s, an independent prosecutor, Donald Donald Trump yes, because now when, whenever he wants is behind him, he claim to believe he didn't do anything and now, when his hand picked FBI director who will be rubber stamp by the public as in the Senate who, who go immediately from the from has said the five to the FBI office with when they come back in its if We nothing really happened and they say that no one will believe it very special. Prosecutor, who is democratic Indorsed comes back and if nothing has happened, some Democrats will not believe at the sort of location. Louise Mench Democrats and I go live but the world, but it will be credible to a lot of people and you can put it behind yourself, but these are not the actions like I don't. These are not the actions of a man who believes he's innocent.
And we ve been saved us along every time. You just keeps up any anti, but yet and there they are not. Ok, we're gonna get to Kathy while waiting for us to give her a ring. So when we come back, we will have former one has come Kathy Ruhmer don't go anywhere, is pod, save America and there's more on the way possible, America has brought you buy, zip, recruiting known. I was wearing a day what the hat the Zapruder people gave me. I was dead. From the water bottle. Really look at it's also, a very nice backpack have a lot of zip recruiter March and I'm using it and guess what quality candidates have just come rolling in every everyone everywhere I go with the zebra could about back on yours. I leave my house, the backpacks empty by atomic at home. It's filled rather resonates. You lose your fellow. We are right to say that as a walking down the street, just have a different route me. If you want and the perfect hire. You need to put your job on all the top jobs AIDS, and now you can with the procurator. You can put your job to tuna plus job sites, including social media networks like Facebook and Twitter, witches
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by the way, by the way you might want to just leave that post open, because I have a feeling that there's gonna be several FBI directors coming available over the next couple of years, every six months, Merlin he beer, John Merrick Island lifetime of appointments. I don't think you don't need to be taken this job, we're going to be fired me couple days. I don't know what it is, but it turns out Donald Trump investigators expire like milk or more I have drafted for free, go to zip recruiter, dot com, slash crooked, born as a political commentary and adds pod. Save America is also brought Dubai where a space, if you ever try to start your own website? You know what a hassle that can be, especially if you dont know what you're doing make your next move maker next website with Squares Bis Creed beautiful website was. Christmas is only one platform, there's nothing to install Petra grid ever provide a winning twenty four seven customer support and will help you get your own custom made with an experience, its fully transparent and simple, to set up scheme,
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I always found. The other ones kind of intimidating, visible, complicated to use. I never set up your arm, but I want the world now. I say I am what I tell you: you, Google Sean's measures name, it's like a look. This is where he bought all that on matching shoes, as we already but enough balls to Philip get the catch up in the abstract or Google plates a day boom square gash who really like it. I like it on the today, we have the former weight has council for President Barack Obama friend of the pod, Cathy Rumbler. We welcome the show. How are you going to be here? we are happy to have you. Finally, so What what do you think of a healthier, the crazy, situation we are in today s early report said that a began who's the White House Council, the job that you had four Barack Obama, one of the few AIDS, the Trump confided in about his decision to fire. James call me and advised him to
This could you imagine advising president today to do this or that have been your legal advice ever really. It is unbelievable I mean I don't. I don't even know where to begin to describe for life, I shock and awe and outrage in anger and sadness about the way the whole thing was handled that can't you requested I can't imagine ever doing that advice and you all work with me for a number of years, and you know there's no chance in Hell. I would have ever given the president's the advice that he should turn it. The FBI director, in that in the course of an ongoing investigation, and I'm certainly not then no provide what I think, you're pretty transparent, the technical reasons for doing so, and just what would you said right because a bunch of us political people, communications people, would have been there saying. The opposite So doing this are completely fucking insane. But I'm sure you would have given more measured legal advice.
You know what would you say like besides the obvious objects of this, what are some of the problems with doing this? Well, of course, the president made people suddenly, correct is that of the legal matter. The president has the authority to terminate the FBI director, as he does any other member of the cabinet and You know that so without any legally has that option- and am I if I were to revise the present, I would have told them you legally have the option to do so. Really, for any reason areas as Jim come, he said in his resignation letter and he's right about that with that said There are a number of other constraints on the president's exercise of that forty, including political constraints. Most importantly surf prudential constraints, the weather, it sort of the right thing.
Do in and what I mean by that is, you know, is it doing it in particular, in doing it at this time and in this way, in a very few hurried manner, message in a way that you know through fell apart, isn't the narrative that they try to put out to have fallen apart? You know, within the first kind of six hours after the fact you Know- is just the undermines everybody's confidence in kind of the legitimacy of these institutions, which is your bad for the White House, it's bad for the country. It's certainly bad for the FBI. For the Justice Department, though those are the things that I would emphasise here to the president and thing if you wanted, you know it's look. If you want to do this, the chemistry not write it. You don't have confidence in the end. The FBI director lets you now take our time think about what information we need to inform. That decision
When is an appropriate time to do it, and there are lots of things that you know that that President Obama wanted to do either personnel. Wise or otherwise, that he he was constrained from doing so, because the circumstances weren't right and the tiny wasn't right? If the reason Trump did this with something was very clear that he was concerned about this investigation in his goal was to stop it do he, and the people around him exposed himself the legal risk for trying to stop investigation like this. Well, it's a great question. The answer is, maybe you know it depends on what the fact would be: a dead, the legal fury, the of law ability would be an obstruction of justice theory in here in our guard story equally, where, where folks have gotten into trouble Rama,
and of criminal perspective in these in these types of situation, but I ain't even think. Of course everything is like every day. There's some euro completely novel situation that comes up in a Trump administration, but if you think back to the? U S, a turning firing, which would you all remember- and I think your many of your listeners will remember What what happened there? They are actually was a special council who was appointed by attorney general crazy. Her name is nor Dan. He and she was at the time the acting you as the terrain for the District of Connecticut. She was appointed to investigate whether or not senior government officials had essentially lied about the reason for why these? U s a trees were fired and you know had lied to Congress. It light in in either test money or in other types of statements to Congress, and
no. You know that now is a multi Malta year investigation that ultimately didn't conclude and included in no charges being brought by didn't conclude Intel, as I will call either to tell the nine or two thousand can be a well into the Obama administration. Can you little bit about Wyatt Democrats are calling for a special prosecutor, talk about little bit further listeners like what a special prosecutor rays and what that means for folks. Yet, though, most people think about it settled, Peter and you, those of us who are old enough to remember. We we think about, can star, and there were quite a number of other independent council appointed under under a law, a statute that existed at the time that had a sunset provision. This means that it had in order to sustain existence. It had to be renewed in and it was not renewed and so that,
that legal apparatus to appoint someone like a can start? Who is truly independent from the Justice Department? No longer exists, though, when people are talking now that a special council whether talking out is that the UN. The attorney general or in this case the acting attorney general for purposes of this matter, because Jeff Sessions has accused, does have the authority to appoint a special council, and that have been done, and it has been done not frequently, but it has been done in the past couple of administrations. It was, it was done, as I mentioned, the attorney general crazy did it with with the: U S attorney firing investigation. He also did it with respect to the destruction of the CIA videotape of fun. You know, enhanced interrogation techniques being implemented. Do doubt is that the special council there was a guy named John Durham
respected senior prosecutor and and of course, Jim call me himself did it in the in scooter living matter and evaluate plain weak investigation, and he appointed Puppets Gerald, though there is definitely precedent for doing it. It is, it is a decision that rests with, in this case with rest with rod, road and time whether or not it is appropriate in this case. But the thing to remember is that that person by the special council dill ultimately reports to the deputy attorney general, so the it's it's it's not exact. Independent in the way that we all think about it, Can the independent council days with someone like a star
It's a little bit more independent invited. You know that there are still unsupervised and report to in this case it s the attorney general slippers and could be fired. Just like coming referred correct, that's exactly right, which were you surprised that sessions who had refused himself was wrote a memo, a butter trump about firing, call me or about commies? no miss handling the Clinton investigation? Wasn't that You have not done that because you accuse himself from his manner. Well, I think that raises questions that should be asked, and I would expect that he knows the oversight committees will ask that question and what was the scope of their were? There were cues Owen, who did he get
I'd and found that this this would you know it's ok away and on a personal matter, while also being over accused from from obviously not to rush investigation, but he also said he would be procured from anything relating to two Hillary Clinton. I can see the argument for is to add to Y ever Cuba wooden apply to him weighing on in on a weighty matters such as whether the FBI director should be terminated or not but I think it's it's a real question, and I think that I saw some reporting this morning that that chairmanship of the house, oversight and government Reform Committee has asked the inspector general to expand its investigation. Or whether or not the F B, I handled the Hillary Clinton email investigation appropriately to now include questions about whether or not the termination of the FBI
director with had frankly so and- and I would not be surprised at All- and I think it would actually be quite appropriate for the inspector general to expand his investigation to also include that, though, you know we far from If the goal here from the White House was, you know to try to rip dvd off and move on from these pesky FBI matters. I think they did not accomplish that mission, rod, Rosen Stones, memo that he wrote sessions. Surprise you mean he says he detailed, of course, all the ways that he believed that call me mishandled the Clinton, email investigation and those of his rationale for rum. Hidden directly recommend is firing, but that was the rationale that the White House gave to debt
The man was a prize use that typical, it's not typical, and I did the prize mean it did surprised me because it it largely cited through validation from opinion writers outside of the department and none of whom presumably really understood exactly what factors went into director com. Decision making it. So I was surprised by the memo. I thought it. It was a very strange mammal a strange- this is a matter process to have a memo. Come over have come.
I'll. Come over to the White House from the Department of Justice I mean you know the deputy attorney general reports to the attorney general, so we normally when you have a recommendation from the Department of Justice that comes from the attorney general, though to me that was pretty transparent, that they were trying to do. Use broad Rothstein, as you know, as a sort of political cover. If you will, because he said you know a career prosecutor Obese, I swear I interpret. It is worth noting nurse. I said you you're a former prosecutor and involves in taking down Enron and lots of other very important cases as a former prosecutor, how it outlets puts, let's presume per second, that no one appoint a special council, an Trump this handpicked FBI director? Is it possible, in this scenario, to actually conduct a thorough invest?
nation and then our prosecution of what's going on here, if there is a crime, is founders, this sort of crippled. In this scenario, I think it is possible- and I think it It will be done and the you know that the agency, the FBI or are, I think, not gonna, be deterred from following leads if this action, but where it matters- and this is why the New York Times during yesterday, significant on this question in your get under three when I see in the newspaper but dad died, the director of director call me went to the department and ask for additional resources. If that's true, that's quite significant
because you cases get made or not made based on how many resources get dedicated to them. We were able to do the Enron investigation and we re able to prosecute the senior many thing your executives at that company successfully, because we we got enormous manner, resources. You know from the FBI and from the department and wheat there's no way we could have made that case. If we had, we had less resources, and so you know that's not that's not back see in terms of explanation. But it's real. It really matters. If you accuse agents I find to a matter, it's gonna be a hell of a lot harder to make a case than if you have five eight and find, though You know in any half, did you get the policymakers and so that, at the level of the director of the FBI, the level of the deputy turning general,
They have to make decisions about how to allocate resources and where folks should be spending their time, and so you know, who's who are in those seats really makes a difference in that respect. More so than that, they're dead, that someone would say you don't stop, stop investigating or we don't like, where your when politically for stop doing, not because I want to tell you that the career men and women in the FBI, they will not put up with that and that Wall Day within you know the walls of the bureau. If that were to happen, how do you think combing handled the booklet investigation? Obviously, he took some unusual step during the email investigation, both in Poland, the Prescott Prince in July, send in the letter to Congress, do who, with his assessment assessment that he had no choice, he was equally Conseil or or you know,
let Congress know what was happening, or what do you think about that? I agreed with this assessment that he had a very easy out. He had a very tough choice and I had an open Zerns again, I'm on the outside. So I don't know everything that you know people inside, for grappling with and and and having sat in those seats and having been subject to a bunch of criticism myself, I'm always Lowe's to to criticise without having the full facts with that said, you know it was due to the manner in which that investigation with was handled. These would be the public,
where's, unorthodox and- and I think you know you you guys know you worked with me for a long time. You know I'd, I tend to be very process oriented. I tend to be quite traditionalist when it comes to following norms in tradition, because I think that it is those those norms are developed for the hard cases not for the easy cases, and you know I, like many other lungs of the department, had real questions about why there at least seem to be a departure from some of the traditional norms about how prosecutors decline, cases and know what types of extra kind of extra comments.
Appropriate to make and in no those are some of the things that were laid out in recent times, memo which I think a lot of folks again, just without knowing all the facts, the lot of a lot of justice, criminal em, they would say, yeah those concerns you know now with that said, the inspector general at the just farming is looking at this. The issue, though, why in the world? Wouldn't you wait for the inspector general who is gonna interview? You know the agents that the bureau who's gonna talk to people whose gonna look at these internal correspondence and and reach informed conclusions about that. Why would you you know basically just cut the inspector generals? Investigation often say you. I've concluded, based on the commentary of folks in the newspaper that without appropriate that that that puzzling to me,
very good question that the way has refuses to answer Cathy. Thank you so much for joining us and explaining this to us, and I and thank you for keeping us honest all those years, keeping us out of trouble that's really gonna part, since we left the White House- and we didn't have you watching over us I can only. I can only imagine what kind of MR they all Men two things were going on: the shock has become out again soon. Are, I think, like I, Don T care a right but ok, thanks again to Cathy Rumbler for joining floods. Have America today, and everyone have a grey weekend, will talk to it by guys.
Transcript generated on 2020-04-03.