Rachel Maddow joins as guest co-host to talk about the White House announcement that they intend to obstruct the impeachment inquiry, Trump’s decision to abandon our Kurdish allies, and Facebook’s refusal to pull down false ads about Joe Biden. Then we talk to Rachel about her new book, Blowout: Corrupted Democracy, Rogue State Russia, and the Richest, Most Destructive Industry on Earth.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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Up on top of the one you already have like. Let's say your president, who maybe is impeachment inquiry in a trial in the Senate? You gotta find a lawyer and Trey Gowdy says no, although
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Welcome to POD save America, I'm John Fabbro, meaning intermediate or I'm John mother.
On today's part, we are thrilled to finally have in studio the host of the Rachel Maddow Show on MSNBC in the author of the new book blowout, which we're going to talk about a little later, Rachel Maddow
Is here hi you guys so exciting, it's very exciting to be here. I can't believe this is real and it's really we kind of set you imagine in your mind, when you're dreaming some sort of
dystopian future. What you find yourself, people you recognize talking, I mean
what's wrong with what's wrong with our studios nothing's wrong. It's perfectly was dystopian about it. Now it's dystopian future. I imagined for myself in which I'm sitting here talking with three smart guys, who I admire, that I completely lose the power of speech and make a complete idiot out of myself. You don't have that dream possible, not possible. That's not possible, although I guess we'll find out
we do have a lot of impeachment in twenty twenty news to cover tonight. But a few housekeeping notes Tommy tell us about this week's pod save the world
yeah that show yeah. We talked about President Trump leaving our cursed. Allies hung out to dry in Syria and
things have only gotten worse incense. We try to understand what our guys were doing there with the US mission was an what's likely to happen, and then we also talked about the NBA's fight with China and what it could mean for the broader business community, as authoritarian countries try to tell us what free speech means check that you're cool future, also a little plug for the twenty nineteen elections. That are coming up in a month. Democrats have a chance to make big gains in Kentucky Louisiana, Mississippi and Virginia, or we need to flip just four seat.
To win the legislature in the chance to draw fair congressional districts in twenty twenty one head to vote, saveamerica dot com, or you can donate to our fuck gerrymandering fund and find volunteer opportunities in these states. Some right from the comfort of your home, so check em out. Alright, let
to the news. On Tuesday evening White House counsel
That's it baloney announcing in an eight page screed that President Trump is directing his administration to obstruct congresses impeachment inquiry. They will refuse to comply with any and all subpoenas for testimony and documents, which is against the law. There were a few pretty angry responses from members of Congress. With regard to this kind of obstruction- and I do think we have a few
clips article three of impeachment against Richard Nixon. The article
was based on the idea that Richard Nixon as President failed to comply with subpoenas of Congress. Congress was
going through its oversight function to provide oversight of the president when,
as for information, Richard Nixon chose not to comply and the Congress back
in that time said you're taking and peach
away from us you're becoming the judge and jury. It is not your job to tell us what we need it is your job to come
while the things we need to provide oversight over you the day, Richard Nixon, failed answer. That subpoena
is the day that he was subject impeachment because he took the power from Congress over the impeachment process away from Congress, and he became the judge and jury, and I think we have. I think we have one more and put a principled leader, so eloquently stated how he threw
good to great the notion that you could well hold information and documents from Congress. No matter whether you're the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respectfully
rule of law must mean something their respective of the vicissitudes of political cycle. The big word: do you guys? Remember? One ice was coming to sit down here for the first time. I said I don't know like if you have interference issues. Is it okay? If I have my phone with me, because I have a couple of things that the
reason I wanted to have my phone with me is because I saved that clip really is I wanted to bring it to you as a present. I could play it off my awesome amazing, so we don't always have clips looked at the beginning, but I saw those two this morning I was like these are very mad os. Yes, I think we're going to.
Thank you, gentlemen. Yes, thank you step up our game, so obviously that was Trump's good PAL Lindsey, Graham and his brand new lawyer, Trey Gowdy Rachel. What do you make of the White House is rationale for this decision to obstruct, which is basically that the impeachment inquiry is illegitimate and unconstitutional, because House Democrats haven't taken a formal vote to launch the inquiry and you know there's a whole bunch of complaints about they haven't, provided the president enough due process. Well, it's interesting to me as a matter of political strategy, because they're, saying impeach, this impeachment doesn't exist. This impeachment
is is unconstitutional, which is amazing because impeachments literally in the constitution article one yeah right there weirdly it's the same word even after all this time. So it's it's. It's obviously a an out their argument, but, to specifically say this, impeachment isn't real. Unless you do acts and then x is a totally doable thing.
I mean it's a mostly could hold a vote in the house and all the Democrats could vote unanimously for impeachment right. It was just in a mush right or whoever, and even you know, even if they needed a few democrats to vote no or vote absent or be watching their here that day or something they could still afford to do it because they have plenty of Democrats on the record in favor of impeachment. So I don't think policy should do it because I don't think she should but Trump dictate what she does. But if that's the threshold, that's the only thing that would make this a real impeachment. Okay, they could have a tomorrow. It seems like an odd thing for them to set those predicate super odd I mean. Do we think that it's interesting the your explanation is that politician, like Trump dictate what she does yeah. I think it's a good point. I wonder if they should do it just to call their bluff like or I guess, I'm I'm wondering that. I'm also wondering why Pelo see is not hasn't done it so far.
It it to me it might be because there's a couple members still on the fence. I love it. It's interesting, I think, there's two things one I with every passing day impeachment votes, get easier for Democrats and harder for Republicans. I don't think that's lost on anyone making this argument. The second piece of this is you're, starting to see rumblings of demands that Republicans get us a p.
Power as part of this and and I'm sorry, I'm sorry, but until you have proven yourselves responsible enough for subpoena
the last time you had it in you know so well, last time, last time you promised you would not eat that ice cream sandwich until after dinner and it was gone. So I you know it's funny what we'll talk about it as well, but you know Lindsey, Graham suggesting Rudy, come to the Senate, the republic. I trump calling for this vote in the house. I find myself thinking.
I don't see what the problem is, but I'm not evil, so I'm not able to totally wrap my head around all the possibilities yeah. I also think that Nancy Pelosi has a really good read on how to play trump. Yes, I mean, I don't think she does everything right, and I don't think that she's, you know like a master of the house in a way that is too hard for us to understand, but I do often feel like she knows how to get his goat yeah and
she knows, what not to rise to and so her not wanting to take this vote is obviously within her power. I mean the house gets to decide its own rules and if their rules are it's an impeachment, when we say it's an impeachment and not it's not dependent on whether we take a hold out, then that's within her power, but I'm I guess that's why to me. The more interesting thing is not what policies during, but why this crazy letter from Pat's
let me set that as such an important threshold as if that is something that could never happen. Yeah I mean I, I read this this letter as just a flailing political statement. I and I don't think that the White House Counsel's office touches thing. I think I dime Store Peggy Newnan Steven Miller probably wrote this crazy bullshit because that that's what they
do with that guy, on the fax like fertile Marco Rubio's, former counsel, that you know Paragon of virtue said the letter was a direct assault on the very legitimacy of Congress's oversight powers. So that's what Republicans think about this letter regarding their specific concerns, like wine, I believe the vote during Nixon's impeachment came months and months from now right. So like the argument that this needs to happen first before they're gathering the facts mean what the house is doing is preparing an indictment and the trial will be in the Senate. The idea that did you know
that they need to vote immediately is ridiculous, and also this subpoena issued power issue was a bit of a red herring. Is my understanding? Is that in previous instances? Yes, you can give the minority Party Subpoena power, but the full committee then votes on it, so the the majority
the de facto veto on minority party subpoenas anyway. So it's like sure, like you, were saying earlier, set up these very easy:
meet the standards for the Democrats, that we can either match or not, but I do think you're right that ultimately Palus he should dictate this based on our own political instincts and not based on whatever Trump issues, the highest authority that gets to decide what happens here, no matter what the White House right right, so the White House sort of gave up the game on this because they held a briefing with reporters after this letter came out and one reporters like okay. Well, what would it take for the White House to change its mind and actually cooperate and the senior administration officials?
a full halt to all subpoenas requests for testimony for documents. Everything else like basically they're, saying their condition for cooperating and impeachment and
SIRI is to end in peace rate increase, it makes sense. So I guess why do we think that Trump chose this strategy of obstructing Congress like? What is the political strategy behind the White House is decision to say we're going to war? We're going
pretend this is unconstitutional and we're just going to fight every three fucking guilty and we read the transcript he did it he might is there might be Bobby Video of him shooting someone. I think I think it doesn't have to be more complicated than what we know plus what we don't
is far worse than what we know plus blocking the investigation yeah right. They think that going down for obstruction is well. Then we it's just another process crime we can get past that and what they are most afraid of is the truth coming out well, but the the the process crime here, however, that's gets adjudicated, even if they left all the obstruction out. Yeah, the crime of contacting another, go
and asking for help against a political opponent done and dusted. You know they're not going to get out of we already that's already done already confessed to they give us the evidence. It's done, President Trump, and did it again on tv in case we missed it. The first time so that part the idea that they're trying to constrain
in this, so that he only gets done for obstruction and not for some other thing or that they're trying to fight that one article of impeachment, because that one worries them more than the other one. That's a sure bet I mean dude, it's a sure bet. I don't. I don't think there is any strategy here. I think this is whack Amole. I think this is like
stop stop. We were talking a watching a program. We love called the rich man. I
for this for this, for this very recording and you we were saying,
we were noting that okay, now this story breaks that it looks like
Tillerson may have been asked by Trump to call
oj to intercede in a specific investigation investigation
He personally cares virtually nothing
about, maybe all of it boiling down to if they
is what he's doing.
On a semi, regular basis, think about all the calls
all the interventions, all the illegal
Ruminating and questions and wondering if you could get away with things that could pile up if the
where to ever truly burst. I was saying 'cause of the story like whether Trump did this at Rudy's behest or he did it for one right like what is Trump give a shit about this guy for right, like Trump,
only gives a shit about himself. He does everything out of his own personal self interest. So if he's that
worried about getting off some guy, who you know, was laundering money with the Iranians like what else
Is he doing her stuff? That actually means something to imagine the kind of stuff that has been pulling Hey Rex
right now, you're known as the Secretary of State who got fired while on the toilet,
why don't you go out being known as the only guy who left this White House and told the truth? Well, this is an interesting part of this because part of
please listen. I'm sorry, I just have to say I am sick of this shaming of Rex Tillerson for the crime
of doing what we all do. It's not
this ball John Kelly called him while he was on the John. Alright, that's not. Why is ray?
Why is that embarrassing? Every single person
in this room, poops,
sorry Youtube old stands in this section of the conversation. Not
I'm between you on this one, because I it may implicate me in future crimes. I I just. I think one of the things is really interesting about this Rex tellers and story coming out. Right now is that it happened in twenty seventeen yeah and it happened a racks in front of three other people and what happened to John Kelly, like he was in like to tell us and took this to John Calley according to Bloomberg NEWS and
said: hey, the president just asked me to do something illegal and legal thing you asked me to do, which is a crime in case you don't know what a legal means. I'm not going to do that crime, hey John, and so that's a couple of years ago. Now it's just come out. Why is that come out now, presumably because in the impeachment inquiry we're starting to shake loose information about the president's behavior that Friday night late night, Washington Post story with all those quotes about the president on the phone with foreign leaders, including him telling Theresa may that Russia wasn't behind the scruples attempted assassination, create all really crazy? All this crazy stuff like? Why is that? Coming out now it's coming out now, because witnesses are coming forward, transcripts are being released, depositions are being taken, the president's behavior is being described and it is shaking either of a conscience or the self preservation instincts, a people who know stuff well. This is why I think this thing could
the bigger than I even imagined right, because I thought you know if we ever do get around to impeaching him, the Republicans the senator going to protect on the matter. What or it's going to happen before the year is over and then by you know, June of twenty twenty world. I have forgotten about the impeachment thing right, but it was just you crane and they rush to really quick vote on it, and that was that that be one thing and they tried to obstruct everything else. But hearing about this Bloomberg story about tellers and and all the other stuff that's coming out if this plays out so that all of these people keep coming forward and there are new stories and new developments
turn over again for the next couple of months. I think it really could build to something very, very bad. Why do we know that for sure good? We just found out about the fact that they move. We just found out from the whistleblower that they move the records of his problematic foreign leader, calls into the standalone covert action
and then immediately we started getting all this information about. What's on all those goals like, I would like to visit that volt. It's not great when you fire someone like Rex Tillerson and you humiliate him or you or Rick Perry just happens to leave the administration after we all just read a transcript where the president commits a crime by trading foreign assistance
dirt on his political rival and then Trump immediately blames Rick. Perry like these are not people who are going to go to the mattresses for you and not tell their stories if they're called impeachment Green Rachel. Are you surprised? I'm surprised.
We talked a lot about what impeachment might unlock that that would that was our.
It was our kind of argument right. If we do this, we pursue this impeachment it'll it'll, give more power to Congress and will be able to
get more out of the administration, but I did not believe it would be this transformative. Have you been surprised by just how much is shaken loose and just roughly what two one slash two three weeks, yes is the pace of. It is remarkable because we're getting all this information about stuff that happened previously. It does sort of make
feel like it was like swelling and ready to burst, and then somebody finally took the first there and it's all starting to come out, and so I don't, I don't know again like I don't know how many stories there are like this with Rex tellers and but I do know that Rex tellers and in December told Bob Schieffer that it was multiple times that the President
custom fit to do something illegal. I don't know if this is one of those. If there's others, I don't know how much rex tellers and is talking. I don't know how much prepare he's gonna talk once he leaves, I don't know how much jeopardy other former Trump administration officials, including cabinet officials, feel like they might be in from this process, I mean see, I think it's, I think the Pompeii thing and the bar thing are both really interesting too, because one thing to talk about their bad acts and to see them defending the president. I mean to see Pompeii out talking about the cards like they don't deserve our alliance anymore. I mean it just it's a it's incredible, but do they fear for themselves in terms of potential prosecution or impeachment, or some other sort of you know, shaming or country or or or consequence that might motivate their own behavior other than just need need to build a look at themselves in the mirror? And
that's an empirical question that I don't I mean I don't know what the Democrats gonna do on captain facials. It isn't with pump, has specifically forget the you know the high threshold of worry about is, you know criminal liability. He seemed to be always someone like and Nikki Haley, who believed he could escape with his credibility in tact, and it seems, as though he's
I don't know. If he's let go of that dream or if he is unaware that that
name is slowly slipping through his fingers. Pompeii Pompeii, I think he's going to be president yeah, and I guess that's why he wants to. He wants to keep the Trump based on its side. Quote George W Bush Pompeyo was benefit t.
Of the soft bigotry of low expectations. Right like he was the only person you could speak in complete sentences on a Sunday show. It was not seen as like a crazy idea. Log like John Bolton,
then Pompey was problem. Now is when you learn that Gordon Sogndal and is the one negotiating with Ukraine, and you dig into that for thirty seconds, and you realize that he only got that job. The US ambassador to the European Union, because he cut a million dollar check to Donald Trump's inauguration using for a non
ll cs. You start to wonder, and then you do some googling and you realize that Ukraine is not in the EU. So why is this fucking
banging around negotiating like military aid to them right so, like
Pompeii's gotta worry about the incompetence of the layer right below him. I also think the Democrats should rope and bill bar into these impeachment proceedings and possibly impeach him as well, because
what bill bars doing flying around the world meeting with all kinds of foreign officials to basically prove a bunch of right wing. Conspiracy theories by also investigating our own intelligence agencies, our own law enforcement. Just so, he can basically backtrack to try to prove this conspiracy, theory or multiple conspiracy theories is crazy and people should feel like. We need the truth about that.
People should know what the tourney that's independent investigator if jointer is a respected prosecutor. Who would never allow for any political pressure? Well, I also worry about criminal referrals. Coming from that. To like it's it's it, you know we can say that he's running around doing is like Carmen Sandiego Investigation, there's going all around the world, but you know when they can
with criminal referrals at the end in the middle of an election, it's gonna be very. I was in the Justice Department for stuff like that, is the end, I'm not in right
and we're getting. There was also
I'm sure we already. We already know that out when the whistle blowers complaint ends up in the deal at Doj they're, like our new stuff in a bag. Okay, did anyone watch the fifty one minute, Glenn Back video, that Trump's campaign manager
Tweet it out that sort of gets at the root of what they think the conspiracy is when it says, like I, Dnc consultant, is the one who basically hatched the whole Russia conspiracy yeah
a lot of free time on Saturday it is Glenn Glenn Beck with looks like a coked up colonel
landers and he needs not one but two gigantic chalkboards to walk you through this and he's like grabbing photos of faces, bringing them from.
Chalk Board to another and slapping them down. It is it's kind of worth five minutes of your time. I love Glenn Beck
I have always loved Glenn Beck
I don't know he's back into the game yeah I was again. I think the thing that I mesmerized by here is like I could get fifty one minutes of going back to a minute. Well, the thing about gland is when he was trying to be the principal conservative, yet the fire like a fifth of the staff at the staff of the blaze, so now mark so, but this is the idea either, Mr Back or the implication of was a purse gal who to treat it and do we think what Barr and armors doing is not
just trying to rope Ukraine into some sort of blame for twenty. Sixteen and election or France specifically, are they trying to make it so that Russia didn't do it yeah so that the Kremlin didn't run, and
Stop on our two thousand and sixteen election, the IRA, the internet, research agency that didn't happen. The Dnc hack was not them and they were blamed by somebody with a grudge against them know they were. They were frame
by the barely stable country, they invaded Ukraine right. That's the belief that once you step in the
yeah one person that did that Hillary Clinton's campaign and the Dnc were somehow working with Ukraine during the twenty sixteen election to first screw over Manta for
okay forces a criminal. They said they set him up with an installed him raise yeah exactly so they must be exposed, Palmyra, forts crimes, which I guess is. It was a mistake, yeah and I don't know where it actually goes from there well, but it goes to is that they stole their own documents and use them to sabotage Hillary Clinton's nominating Convention and her campaign in order to make Russia look bad.
So that Trump would be elected and Russia would look bad, that's the outcome, trundling trunk, winning just ruined all these conspiracy. Well, like I
These people had all the stuff they're trying to take down trump, but all this to be very quiet.
We only knew about the one investigation
is the one under Hillary Clinton, they are very, very the deep state is.
Phenomenally bad at making
as evidence. They are.
By our nightmare, her current target, but is this part of the thesis that that Hillary was orchestra
in a campaign that would result on purpose in her losing because that
is the real knife in the back to the sum of the conspiracy,
sure that the more the lower level conspiracies are just you know: yeah Russia, meadow
the election, and maybe the Trump campaign encourage and welcome, welcomed it. But the Democrats working with Ukraine to there's little meddling there. It's there it's back to the like yeah, you know where corrupt but you're, to yeah
and everyone's this and that's what they're really that's all they need is like trademark Putin, yeah right exactly like the world is corrupt. We're not right laptops. Leverage hi there mark is brought you by policy genius. It's
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so Lindsey Graham said he wants Rudy to testify before the Senate Judiciary Committee and that he plans to ask his republican Senate colleagues to sign a letter stating that they don't believe the transfer of the phone called constitutes an impeachable offense.
What is that, what is Lindsey Graham up to here I mean I first of all, I don't think he's getting a ton of signatures on that letter, because this is a pricing number of republican senators who are saying nothing right now, which is probably a bad sign for Donald Trump, was not a great sign, but did the Rudy thing makes me think they are gearing up to try to put on a show that is very loud and confusing and they're trying to drag everyone to process? Argue
it's just to you know here's my question: is there something I don't understand about
Rudy, Giuliani and Lindsey, Graham that anyone could come to the conclusion that an open hearing with Rudy Giuliani, in which Democrats will have time to ask him questions, will we're down to the benefit
of anyone associated or affiliated with Rudy Giuliani? I mean I am I missing something I like raising. I would've said that about the Corey Lewandowski, hearing
Now and then you know somehow that went off the rails, but even that, even that you know yeah, it was a. It was a. It was a big mass, but first of all I would say this I think
leaving now is still a better witness than Rudy Giuliani, and there were still thirty tough minutes with the staff attorney which
we live. He confirmed a bunch of shit that end
Being a big part of the stories that followed, I guess is there anyway,
Rudy Giuliani, testifying before the Senate could be scoped to prevent Democrats from asking questions that would reveal the inner workings of
the you've met. Minutes you've met Senate Democrats right, but it
Kamala Harris would crush it. We got you got some, not so great
that's Congress, I listen you go. Do you go you go to to impeach with the Congress you have. I mean I think, that clearly
are trying to put on a show or Rudy Giuliani show I mean there's a re
Giuliani goes on tv all the time. It's not 'cause he's great on tv. It's because Rudy Giuliani on TV is a spectacle that makes it seem like something. Crazy
happening- and I can't possibly understand this anymore, look at that guy yeah, I mean not at that that chaos itself is enough to start kinetic nonsense yeah, but in terms of asking republican senators
to agree in writing and pledge the way they will vote.
For the trial or the trial, I mean that's it. I mean it's it's for one thing, the problem with Lindsey, Graham doing that is, it gives republican senators there. It gives away their best way to avoid commenting on this right. I think we've had one or two senators already say listen. If this comes to the Senate, I will effectively be a juror
this case, and so I don't want to say anything that might pre Judge Susan Collins right MIKE Enzi just said that all say that unless Lindsey Graham tells the mall to sign a pledge that no matter what it is Marco Rubio's like are we send it because
now we're not, I wouldn't sign it. Obviously, I'm sure I know I know I'm not I'm not going to say we're not is Rubio's
find still that he doesn't think the president really asked a foreign country for help with bindings. It's a joke. He thinks it's a joke
China piece. He said he thought what CNN reported that actually one of the things in the vault is that Trump didn't just do
on the S lawn. He did it in private
in a conversation with president. She doesn't take away that it was a joke, though not even that report the next day trumped weeded. I ask
sign in to investigate not because of politics, but because of corruption. So he he
hey Margo. In case you were mistaken, I was not kidding. I thought it was very serious idealism. None of you are familiar enough with the avantgarde stylings of Andy Kaufman.
This is a long term kind of peace. It's a bit! Ok! What are the Democrats options now that the White House is all in on obstructing everything in Congress? What are the legal options and then what is a good political strategy? Can they make the impeachment hearings successful with the Trump Administration
completely obstructing Congress? What are their options? One option they have is that they could just impeach him
just call it a day. Call. Today I mean you, don't you yes, the obstruction stuff should are arguably be an article of impeachment. It sounds like they're building quite a case there they're also about to get all of the are a bunch of the stuff that was collected during the molar investigation that goes toward obstruction. You know things like asking call me to interfere with the Justice Department in the Flint investigations of act that could all be out of there, but even if they don't want to touch the obstruction stuff, they could impeach him right away. Just on the asking for foreign interference stuff, the substantive matter that sparked the proceedings in the first place, they just do that whenever they want yeah, then go to court right, but that's gonna take a long time, go to court to try to compel come the cut yeah in a speech to compel the subpoenas and the obviously. This goes that's what I'll do
probably end up at the Supreme Court. If the White House fought this at the White House is going to say we're not going to cooperate with anything and then they get they could sue to enforce the subpoena yeah. I mean the the sort of frustrating here. Is you know one of the arguments? You always heard from people who are pro impeachment way earlier than now was that impeachment would make winning these court battles easier faster would then force them to come forward and, like? I think it was probably always the case that that was not true, especially with wouldn't when Trump is guilty. We've read the thing we know he's guilty like he's going to fight this thing and make it about process the entire way. So I think that ship is just going to proceed with what he has at a at a normal pace. I yeah it was interesting. I sought shifted interview with Greg Sargent the other day yesterday. I think- and he said that he believes he's like look at this. If, if the courts and
so there's going to be a trial in the Senate, I cannot imagine a court in this land that won't give us the evidence. We need to conduct this trial, whether it's from Muller or whether it's from anywhere else seems to think that not only will he get the evidence, but it will get it in a timely fashion for a
it in peachment barrel, how old is forcing that to happen right away with the molar stuff? Now right I mean it's moving the constitution says the House shall have the sole power of impeachment in the Senate, shall have the sole power to try all impeachments right. It couldn't be more clear that it's a congressional prerogative and that they need to supply this evidence. If your argument is, we refuse
to give you the information you need to hold impeachment proceedings. I mean that it just what's the purpose of having impeachment. To begin with, I think I like the thing that I'm
like is potentially on the horizon that I'm really worried about, and I don't know what to how to think about. It is like reading that transcript from the Bell Howell hearing,
this week, and you know the one where she says: wow,
you really are arguing something quite extreme here I mean there are you Watergate was argue, runs arguing to me that Watergate was wrongly decided that the the material Creek collect
in the grand jury investigation shouldn't have been given to the house for the purposes of their impeachment, like eight to zero case right, yes, and so
to see how arguing that and then the brave Justice Department, lawyers saying
yes, your honor. I don't think it's that extreme, like it's just very awkward, but it made me made me start thinking about the prospect that the Justice Department
under William Barr, as some of these things, do go through court and there's a bunch of things that are already in court. The Justice Department has been representing the president, essentially as his personal lawyer through all of these things are taking a side on everything they're losing all of these cases and they'll all take awhile, but they all eventually resolve and they'll resolve with court orders and under Bill bar. Do we believe,
Justice Department might not comply with court orders on national crisis. That's an actual constitutional, it's unless it,
is that true, it's a constitutional, it's a constitutional crisis. If we fail to remove Donald Trump right.
The reason I think you you pursue every legal remedy that institutional crisis should be resolved in favor of impeaching the person. That's precipitated the constitutional right that that that that you know it
constitutional crisis to the causes of crisis to me doesn't exist when Donald Trump filed a subpoena. The constitutional crisis exist when Republicans in the Senate refused to obey their sort of constitutional responsibilities for the sake of party and fail to punish the president for his obvious pride. So that is the crisis. That's not meet. The definition of a constitute a constitutional crisis would be. The court's ruling instrument in
ignoring the congressional Subpoena yep impeachment, is a political decision. I get what you're saying, but it's not that's. The word as a Madeline is a semantic. Assuming matter yeah I mean because there's a crisis is a crisis. The constitution cannot resolve to me and to me it because of the crisis that it will be unresolved at the present. As a criminal- and it is obvious any
flouting, but the judiciary and the Congress and the Congress won't act because they put party over there Herodotus as representatives of the legislative branch. That to me is the ultimate crisis. I think it's very very bad. It is a crisis if the president refuses to obey court orders. But to me that is the moment we will have been. That is the Rubicon to me. I firm I'm. I think I'm a tell me on this and that I think that when you have elected officials behaving badly and refusing to acknowledge their responsibilities as patriots and citizens
that's bad, but you solve that by voting them out, and so you still have one other option to play if the Justice Department itself, which is in charge of enforcing the law and prosecuting crimes, refuses to acknowledge the authority of the United States court system. I honestly don't know what to do. I mean Congress could impeach Bill bar there. Congress could impeach. The
didn't for overseeing an administration that is behaving this way and it's really bad. If the Republicans decide, that's not worth impeaching them on, but there's
there's no fix right is no way to make the on the I mean the courts. Don't have an army at the courts. Don't have any way to get their way other than by having their thirty respect is like being under Johnson impeachment yeah I mean that we, I I'm, I think. Where are you
over the semantics of the phrase constitutional crisis? I agree that it is a terrible
interest. Layaway, I'm just not a lot. I just think that great to me, the the the the assumption is, we we knew from the one from the get go that the courts would not have troops right. That's you know that that is their weakness,
but it does buy. Congress has the power of impeachment to enforce what happens in the core may just think. It's baked into the system
We might have an administration that fails to honor, with the courts do and may even on to honor the the Congress does and that's why we have peach impeachment exist for this very
I just think that the thing that I worry about the most is the Justice Department, the Justice Department, bringing political prosecutions against the president's enemies in order to score political points for the president or to clear his enemies off the board. I worry about the justice dip.
Meant Kibosh NG, not only other forms of investigating the president or potential crimes by the president of the people in the administration but submarine.
I'm so that nobody ever finds out about them. I mean it is really lucky, basically that we found out about the whistleblowers complain about the Ukraine call. So it's only
because of the inspector general of the intelligence community appointed by Trump, who decided that he was going to do the right thing here, despite the fact that he had been completely outmaneuvered. He just bluntly:
threw self on it and said no, I'm bringing this to Congress, and I'm going to. I mean the the the
that's the normal thing somebody should do it counts, is heroism in this moment, but had
I'm not done that. We never would have known about the complaint. The whistle blow
it would have been in severe danger. It
shocking realization, the degree to which we have needed her role like axe I'll find out. I was a might my surprises to the point of the Justice Department. If there is that there haven't been more whistle blowers, are people coming forth were career people at the Justice Department because they have had a rough run, yeah between Jeff sessions and now Bill Barr yeah, and that is my worry too, because so far we've seen bill bar. You know abuse all kinds of power to protect
trump, but we haven't seen as much of the prosecuting his enemies in going after that. To me is the one who's doing that is MIKE Pompeii out with re opening the right young male investigation at the State Department, and that is something that I almost feel like. I want to put that in its own folder in care. That's all, but that's that's a really big deal that there
doing that in the way they are pursuing it, as best as I understand, is that they're, basically blackballing
all senior state department officials who had any communications with Hillary Clinton while
who is secretary of state by saying, oh listen, we've retroactively classified your emails from that time's now looking to us like their classified and therefore you've got a security ding against you and your record, and you can never be employed in the state Department ever again. No matter who is president, it is disgraceful, like their retroactively, classifying a bunch of emails that maybe could have been classified at the confidential level as a way to punish these people.
Meanwhile, are us ambassador to the European Union in our special representative for Uk
Pain and the ambassador are texting about fucking. True
phone calls with foreign leaders military aid to Ukraine
things the Russians would desperately.
I want to know that should have been classified, that at a minimum, that business should be conducted on State department equipment so that there is oversight
that you can foyer at me right on on. What's out right, not on not on message which is like was only what's up well, at least that's being printed, but whatever you know it was a talk. How not to talk about capturing the doctors you hypocrisy is: is
going to yeah one other piece of news we should mention is Turkey's invasion of northeastern Syria, which began today
Donald Trump made the decision that Sunday to abandoned our kurdish allies
in the region and gave president order one of Turkey, the green light to me. I know you guys talked about all this on positive the world, but can you tell us why Trump's decision was so
reckless. Here I mean basically what he did. Is he told president air to one that he has the green light to conduct a military operation into northern Syria, and the problem with that is Trump is trying to frame this as we're handing over the fight against ISIS to the Turks they own
now they'll manage it? For us everything will be fine when in reality, what everyone wants to do is
roll in there and clear the series
democratic forces out of the area. The syrian democratic forces are
folks: we've been on the ground, doing the really brutal combat against ISIS. This whole time they're, the ones who cleared the way, got us to rock we're fighting house to house they lost. I think eleven thousand,
guys in the fight, which is men and women there. There are many women out on the front lines fighting every single day. I think, like six Americans were killed during this time, so they've like shoulder the brunt of this but aired one views the Kurds who were part of the Sdf as related to the Pkk, which is a group within Turkey
it's been fighting for an autonomous Kurdistan for a long time. He views them as a terrorist group, so he wants to kill these kurdish fighters,
been our closest allies. We've been working hand in glove with over it several years to take out ISIS, and so the
reports, as we're walking in here to record is that the Turks are bombing tap
phones where there are Christians and Kurds and other living and are going to start killing these guys in like at best. This is going to be ethnic cleansing where they push them into a small.
Part of the northern Syria. At worst, it could be a massacre. Why do we think that Trump did this? I mean
something clearly that every time trump talks to to one whatever to one asks trump for he gets instantly with Trump, not consulting anybody consulting with anybody
Obviously, the US military would be rapidly against this. I think most other
all working in national security, even trump folks working in national security would be against this. I've never heard anybody argue for this
should pull out and let everyone do what he wants to our allies yeah, so either what it, what it one have to say to try to get him to agree to this. What is Trump see as being in this? For him
I mean, as Wendy Sherman was arguing tonight, on my show, to the extent that Trump wants to be able to say for political
says, I'm getting all our boys home, that's not even what this race so Y Se. Yesterday I I, I cannot fathom a explanation to your point.
He's he's trying to say I'm bringing these one hundred and fifty guys home who were there
or maybe in the way of area once operation they're not going anywhere they're getting their driving to a different location in serious, so they're, not in the line of fire they're not coming home, I mean good,
I I don't have an answer. Your keys, a NATO ally,
the only NATO ally he's nice to is the one run by this. Like Islamist
were tarian leader, and maybe they get along. I I don't get it. It was interesting. I saw I think, Newsweek had the NSC official say that Trump got rolled. Yes on the phone call, which is you know, it's sort of a simple explanation and not as nefarious, but
one that sort of fits Donald Trump. We've got to get on a call with the world leader about something else, and all this any asking for something and he's like yeah sure. That's fine. That was being a deal yeah I get to bring my troops home yeah great. I that's that's good politically. For me, we should bring troops on this. I can say that yeah yeah, you can seems the Brady heir to one the prickly and I'm sure he got on there and lecture them for forty minutes and said we will take the fight to ISIS. We'll take this fight over ourselves. You said your guys home. We got this covered, you don't spend money in his lecture, but if that makes you
that makes sense to me as a rational course of events. If the end result is that Trump actually is bringing everybody that all US forces home from Syria and he's not
he's having to make now, including on Twitter,
about how the US forces are out of
Hey and the Kurds, didn't help
set Normandy in world
or two and so they're, not that good. What are you talking about principle? I mean I I just I don't. I feel like this is something where the thing we understand about the president
is that he does stuff, that's good for him. Yeah, there's no way in which this looks good for him and therefore, I believe there's something else going on here. That he's been leverage
into either by to one or by some other force at work that we're not seeing directly
well, we know his business interests are that's a sad I mean we we is, is the great struggle for understanding a congenital liar with multiple different factors of corruption and
influence on on him at all times. We don't know if it is his financial interest, we don't know if it's simply him miss on
standing his own interest being rolled in a call.
We don't know if there's not some other other other form of influence or in
is that we don't yet know about we just we go into this. The only thing
for sure. Is that his explanations- I will not be where it is so funny like, because he's the president I'd states we're forced to like take a statement at face value and evaluate them and try to figure out what he's thinking a month ago, this dude was drawing with a sharpie on a
weather map. The tell us that a hurricane was going someplace. We all knew what rates it's like, we're already in Lyle and land with him. The thing that's,
is. There is a massive republican backlash to this decision
he's getting criticizing ways he's never ever criticize, and it's not just that this he's not stopping the Turks from taking this military operation.
He apparently invited aired once at the White House on November 13th. So, like the fuck, you is going to get rubbed in the faces of the Linsey grams of the world, all over again with the state visit, not a state visit, but a head of state visit to the white. Well, this is what happens with him all the time, though, right like once, he makes the decision, and then he gets criticized
now he said he's backed into a corner and now he's going, but not on the ground. You walk this back like three times but he's, but it the, but that but just to talk about
Normandy thing today now that, like he's going to keep fighting for his explanation, he just tweeted, like you know he tweeted his video of him talking about time. He said this is a different take for me.
Well, you just a pundit talk about a guy like I have a different take on this one, so different as I get the green light to us, they are, they are walking a back. I mean remember the last time you talked one was when he announced that all US troops are coming out. It's coming out, that's how we lost Madison and how he lost Brett Mcgurk. Who is that on right to the fight against ISIS, and the I mean he did change that now, like they're still US troops in Syria, I mean part of, I think what we have to think about tonight is the
What the Turks are doing, right now with the cooperation of the Russians, is put
Julie, starting and I genocide campaign in that part of the country where there are a lot of people, not just the who aren't only
and to us, because they were our allies and have been for five years against ISIS. That should be important to us, even if we freaking hate them and
the small number of US troops who are there right now are themselves in a new kind of danger that they've never been in before in terms of not having the support of the US government and also there at grave risk from our former allies.
They've been working alongside for five years, having real reason to turn on them, if they decide to think about it that way and so to have US forces there deeply sympathetic with the Kurds while the Kurds are being attacked and potentially
occurred them being under rules of engagement that are having not supposed to
them fighting a frontline way having them newly endanger having no sense about. What's going to happen. Next, I mean just just the perspective of american soldiers in Syria. Right now is almost unfathomable, a dark, yeah yeah, and I don't I mean I am. I am conscious of the fact that Russia has wanted US troops out of Syria because it see Syria as its playground from the very beginning. Turkey and Russia are on different sides of the syrian civil war right. They have different interests there, but when once
This thing today puts out the statement saying I want to thank Russia for its constructive attitude in this matter when they're working together on yeah. That is that's just that's bad dark! Really, bad! You really are confronted right now. It's you know you. It does become something you're, not the ties to a little bit, but that just that you know.
There's incredible, corruption is criminality, but the fundamental on fitness of the man that kind of brokenness of his ability to reason and process and make decisions in a rational and cogent and thoughtful way with discipline. The absence of that ability.
Is in and of itself a reason he should no longer be president. His behavior itself is an impeachable offense. Well, it pissed off a lot of his jurors with the Turkey move as well. So yeah maybe
end up, mattering well he's going to try to move it to a different venue. Yeah, it's going to say, we've convened a jury in Saint Petersburg
Linsey grams eighteen holes away from never knowing who the Kurds were so sad all right. Let's talk about two thousand and twenty we learned today that Facebook has denied Joe Biden's request to remove a false trump ad from its Platt
form that other media outlets, like CNN, have already refused to run. Facebook's response to the Biden campaign follows it's very recent policy change which allows politicians to run ads that have been already debunked by independent nonpartisan fact: checkers a decision that was also heavily criticized by Elizabeth Warren on Tuesday, or and also noted that the decision came shortly after Mark Zuckerberg met with Donald Trump and called Warren's campaign, an existential threat to Facebook. Just last week, the Trump campaign spent seven hundred thousand dollars in a week on Facebook, ads fire outspending. Anyone else on Facebook, so Facebook says that their decision is grounded in their fundamental belief and free expression, respect for the democratic process and the belief that in mature democracies with the free press, political speech is already arguably the most scrutinized speech. There is. What do we think about that reasoning from Facebook? I don't think it's good. I don't think it's very smart. You know you you shouldn't propagate misinformation and
put flies in front of millions of people to make money billions. I mean, I guess they would say, look and I we should say it's not just Facebook has done this, the that is on you tube. It's on Twitter Fox ran it as well, and five million views on Facebook. Already yeah, I mean it's so it's out there yeah and, and you know, and twitter, and you two were basically saying the same thing. I guess from their perspective, their argument would be. How are we, how do we fact checked this right? Like so, you know, we've had you know the Washington Post's right going class or the washing oppose the fact checker there he's given Obama for Pinocchio's on stuff, and we freaked out
about it right, and we said that's totally wrong. This is correct. He's he's you know. Imagine if we had an ad like that that we put a lot of money behind. We thought it was right without the fact check was wrong and then Facebook took them all down. So I guess the the how how do how do these platforms actually conduct fact checking in a fair way
if it makes them the same way, every major network? Does it like figure out a process and stick to it like CNN, reject
The end clearly did it. Surely they could find the resources to figure this out and by the way like
they're, just so constipated on all things politics right like they get beat up by the
right, and then they could beat up by the left and they're terrified of being called partisan. So at the end would get sacrifices accuracy, so my advice to them would be stay
running political at Ding, Ding Ding, it's a drop in the bucket. Actually it is a drop in the book except you don't want the headache fuck it get rid of them. That's exactly,
and I mean I have this fantasy- that
there was. That means that Facebook would recognize that it is powerless before its own failure, that it can't fix this problem and no matter if it, even if they did want to try to
so they can't get there. They can't think themselves or engineer themselves out of this, and so will have am,
are toriumi and all political advertising for a month before the election, even just that, but they should just get rid of it entirely and like Nick Clegg, a former Depp,
the Prime Minister of the UK waving the white flag on like their ability to adjudicate faxing. Why would I so depressed? I was like Nick Clegg. Isn't that the name of the former,
I didn't know it was the same guy. Now he works for Facebook. This is new to me Nick Clegg, much for face Bio yesterday to everybody who's, arguing where we need to run fake, disproven,
yeah December, most fat, Nick Click because of America like because, because free speech,
because we love democracy, and so
therefore we need to take my
need to run this poison. That we know is false raffling I just don't
so that they have really learned any lesson like. I know. They've invested a lot of time and resources and people at what happened in twenty sixteen in their role in twenty sixteen, but for Mark Zuckerberg to meet with Donald Trump change. This policy to make an exception for political ads on
checking and then, even though it was leaked, audio talk in his company,
thing about like- and I know it was Elizabeth Warren's policy- is an existential threat to the company and I'm going to go to the mat like. Doesn't he have any have a responsibility to be?
a neutral arbiter at the very least in twenty twelve, at least AFAIK Newt
Alright, don't you aren't you worried about what you look like right now right? That's what I don't understand like what soccer works doing there I gotta say like if I ran Facebook in one candidate had said I'm going to break up Facebook. I would probably view that as an existential
change to the company or right or arrest to the company, and I think that
He was sort of being on
about what any ceo in that situation would believe. Now, with
it's smart to say in
in a meeting with ten people or an all hands, that's going to get recorded. That's another matter, while also making radical decisions about how you're going to handle political speech affecting that politician. That's the separate! It's not just any company that right, if he, if he sees
some company that we, you know Warren, says I'm going to tax a lotta regulator ever that's one thing, but he also has a role. I don't think he has fully f me, partly as a ring, as is because he doesn't think Facebook is a media company. He thinks it's. A technology company right like everyone at Facebook, is supposed to say we're, not a media company, no matter what you
from there. They are a media company and they won't recognize that. So I don't think he fully recognizes his very important role in his company's important role in the twenty twenty election.
Or what right. This is a lot for me. I mean what that's what you can't be saying things like that about people's blood. This is Facebook. This is what they do. Sorry, it's not our policy. It's not! Our policy will eventually apologize for
and change our policy and recognize that were wrong, but we're not there yet that it can to that this sort of just this pattern with Facebook, again and again and again, they pursued bigness at all costs without regard for safety and the bigness itself becomes an excuse. The scale of Facebook itself becomes an excuse for their inability to solve the problem that they created by
achieving such scale. I don't know, look don't run political ads, run political ads to me before you even get to them being
to not have them at all. How about you accept that
there are gray areas, there's also black and white. You may get him wrong sometimes and face a little blowback, but that doesn't
justify allowing your platform to be a vehicle for misinformation and lies and deception that already once changed in american election
a few years ago. Do we know what proportion of their ad revenue is political ads, or do we have a guesstimate? I don't I don't off top my head, but I would suspect it is like a percent of a percent yeah. That would be my guess, and so I don't know I mean I don't know how these things get fixed. I mean Trump is spending a lot.
Yeah. I mean he is their biggest of all the political candidates, but given the market capitalization of Facebook, even if he's going to spend a billion dollars on ads, but she's not going to do it, they were all on Facebook, like
sure that would make your facebook made forty billion in twenty seventeen.
So it's really not that much so really. If Trump was going to spend a billion dollars on Facebook ads, it would be. It would be a little bit of a rounding error for them yeah. If I just I mean I don't know, I don't know that much about this part of the world, and I don't know that much about the advertising chewing
throwing. I do know that this is not a swap meet in which people are sending this information back and forth amongst themselves with no interface from Facebook. When people want to buy these ads, they send money to Facebook and Facebook says. Thank you were going to cash, your check, we're going to take
money and thereby allow you to put this thing on our platform and when they take that gate keeper Ralph for the purposes of taking money, they Van put themselves in the position where they have to have some sort of opinion about what they're doing you just can't. I don't know, there's just been it is responsibility has never been something. Facebook has been particularly interested in at no point in its evolution as a company, as it ever been willing to accept the responsibility that has earned by becoming such an ever present part
our lives. It's just we're not, and we you know we're not a media company where a platform- okay, okay, but look what your forms yeah. We don't really matter that much except for the the companies that buy ads on our platform. It is like
believe that advertising works, because it's our entire business model, it's the greatest advertising, doesn't really have that much, even if it's the greatest ever
using tool in the history of mankind, their revenue for the twelve months ending in June 30th, two thousand and nineteen was sixty two billion dollars. I think they always move a little slow. They always move half measures like. If I had an ink
meaning of a sense that the ethnic cleansing was
Bing in Burma because of my platform, I would have cut off access to the platform in the country. You know what I mean like go big guys, do something important and
you will get criticized, but at least you'll have addressed the
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Rachel before we go? I do want to talk about your new book you're very kind. It's called blowout corrupted democracy, rogue state Russia and the richest most destructive industry on earth,
very happy topic. I it's about how rushes reliance on the oil and gas industry is critical to explaining why the interfere in the twenty sixteen election. I know you said that you did not start thinking that you would write this kind of book. So how did you start and then how did you end up where you ended up? I started because I am proud
see and unapologetically totally obsessed with Russia, and I get it bring on
hey. I got it, bring it, I love it,
bigger and stronger, but you've got a lot of red string with you today you can carry we
like a year and a half on it were in it. The part of it that I fell
I was really stuck on. Is that I didn't understand why it made sense for Russia to attack us in that way, not not only to try to influence our election, but to use those weird macguyver e tactics right like it's the
the Allah guy who's got. A Saint Petersburg Berg thing with people who make
fake social media that were gonna, use that and then competing
military intelligence, hacker groups going for the Dnc and then inventing Lucifer two to post all this stuff
comic sans, like what is this. This is a strange tactic. Why would a country use this as its tactics is interested in that, and why would they take such a risk? I mean if they believed, like everybody else, believe that Hillary Clinton was likely to win the election. I know that they wanted to weaken her ability to govern. They wanted to undermine her as a president, those
last minute text, exchanger, twitter exchanges between Julian Assange and Don Junior
was trying to make sure that they would contest the election results and not concede one.
Ellery one. You know they wanted. They wanted to foment as much chaos as they could and upset around, but like if they
There is going to win. Hillary was already Russia HAWK. So
not sure why Hillary would have could have
done to them get
in the office, knowing that Russia just interfered in our election to try to stop that from happening right. You think that they might be like that's a big risk that they were taking against
really really bad odds, and so why was it worth it for them to do that, and I came to realize that both of those things came from the same place, which is desperation and John Mccain,
has made this argument. President Obama made this argument. Vice President Biden all made this argument that the best way to understand Russia was that, through their weakness and in particular the economic weakness, but I didn't really get how economically weak they were until I realized that they are each
mommy is a pogo stick. It's only got one thing in it, which is oil and gas which it turns out, is a terrible thing to build your economy on yeah. It gives you a bad government, it ruins all other
it's to build a diversified economy around it and in Russia's case
Their oil and gas sector has been so looted by Putin to do the kind of things that he wants to do with it, to use it as a weapon, essentially because he doesn't have any other forms of power to project that
they suck even at pumping their own oil and gas, and
they really need western oil majors to come, help them and they can't get that as long as they're sanction because of their bad behavior. Are you a big got resource, curse, yeah it here and yeah? Can you tell us what that is? The resource curse
is the academic. Id has been around forever, which is basically that if you have resources in your country that are to be extracted and
old international as an international commodity, that seems awesome because you're going to get revenue for that, but it has a knock on effect. There's this paradoxical effect.
Where it tends to shrink your economy overall, give you bad governance and results in increased poverty and worse quality of life for everybody in your country,
and that's because, whatever this remunerative extractive industry that comes in, they tend to capture the elites and the government officials who can make it happen. Those people get corrupted and co opted by that industry. They get all the money and all they would do for the rest of their lives is make sure that they and their offspring stay in power forever to stay clamped on this financial asset. How deep are the connections between russian oil and gas interests in the Trump administration? I know you
Well, I mean russian. This is why I'm obsessed with Rex Tillerson right so I mean
the timeline right. Russia is
born. Living on a sea of oil and gas, they've got tons of oil and gas they're easy
oil and gas kind of starts to run out, and they start to need to be able to top modern technology to get out there in the reserves. They have nothing else in their economy. They need to keep pumping oil and gas, they
start making moon eyes at their resources that are in the Arctic in the russian Arctic. In the c, they have no way to pump it themselves. They do a half trillion dollar deal with X.
And Rex Tillerson, is willing to do it. All these other western majors have gone in and tried to do. Deals with Russia and they've just gotten chewed up and spit out, including, like western oil execs like getting poisoned in Moscow. Luck
you know. Good oil companies in Russia get seized in their owners, get put in jail and it's a disaster, but Rex figures it out is willing to do it. He gets a medal. A fricking medal from Putin
and then they're about to start drilling in the Arctic and, put
can't control themselves get given. It is bad to the US to go invade Ukraine and the? U S, institute sanctions and they're actively drilling in the care see when the sanctions kick in in twenty fourteen and Exxon is like.
Give us just a few more days and we just needed we just I know
I know we've been sanctioned were supposed to stop doing this, but we're really worried about the sea birds
We need to make sure we environmentally clean up. Our area were not right, all because they're trying to they're trying to spot that well they're trying to get to the wild and
ultimately like on the last day, the Obama administration will allow them to be that they do have oil and then they have to shut it down, and then Ross Neff goes back to at themselves with accent I'm able to get their their self fricking incompetent. They can't draw the oil out of that well themselves. They need x on do it and they can't get excellent to do it because of us. Foreign policy
see, and then Russia throws this curve ball into the middle of our election in twenty fifteen and twenty sixteen and they help install Donald Trump as President and Donald Trump, when looking around for somebody to put in charge of us, foreign policy has never met back still.
That ya does not, particularly when he meets him and
still worse shows up having never ever worked anywhere in his life other than at Exxon. Mobil shows up for a meeting, doesn't know what it's about has never met from before walks out as secretary of state
like, ok, okay, so that can't really have happened
Did it you know, and then he sets about dismantling the state Department and the Trump administration sets about doing everything they can to try to relieve those sanctions on Russia what's happening with that that that oil? Right now,
sitting there. They can't do anything about it. I mean the russian oil and gas industry is terrible. I mean not
gas isn't even bigger deal for them than oil. The gas problem
when Alexa Miller, took over gas problem when Putin installed him, it was there were that company is worth like three hundred and sixty billion dollars. 'cause they've got a ton of natural gas in,
under his leadership under Alexei Miller it
now gone down to being like sixty billion dollars, they've lost more than like three hundred billion dollars in value.
Alexa Miller is still in charge because he's doing what he needs to do, which is that enriching Putin and everybody who Putin needs and rich with that stuff, they don't even try to make themselves into good companies. He did, however, make himself a Pallas which is called me,
there half Miller is so not a russian name that have created Miller half, which is a palace for himself. He still going to be in charge of gas prom forever. Their companies just sucked sounds like a Milwaukee beer has so in a world that is moving away from fossil fuels because of climate change. What is what did you find out about like? What's the long game here for Russia, if there's
will try to squeeze everything they can out of their oil and gas industry. If I could ask Putin one question like if I could ever get a Putin interview, I'm not waiting on it, but if I could that be the question that I'm asking like, what's going to be Russia's number one export in twenty five years, right, 'cause, you don't.
Have anything I'll talk with desperation, yes, and so the as the world turns away from oil and gas, because we have to part of the reason I wanted to write. The book is that I feel like we ought to get our heads around not just with the environmental consequences of that will be, and not just thinking about it in terms of the political consequences of jobs in America, moving from one sector to another and re training, and all that stuff think about it in terms of the international GEO political influence, because the oil and gas industry is propping up a whole bunch of really terrible governments all around the world and if they lose their market share and their power, then
countries are going to change. Systems of government are going to change. I'm. I think the boundaries of countries will change yeah and countries that have built themselves on a single entity in their economy. That is, oil and gas will find themselves absolutely off the cliff just one question about another project you did, which was back
men one of my favorite bag, your bag, man. It is one of the best podcast.
Ever made out to check it out, have to it it's about
our former upstanding virtuous, vice President Spiro Agnew?
wonderful, human being wonderful human. It with like you could describe it as Watergate.
Adjacent right. Now that we're in this impeachment proceeding
What did you learn about impeachment from doing that story? Anne about I don't know you talked earlier about how, if not for this
brave, whistleblower or brave, ig kinda doing their job. We would be in a very different place. You you had some characters in the in the podcast were very similar yeah I mean I feel, like I, Spiro Agnew's ghost
is here to help us at this time for price spirit which you need to pay in a Manila envelope in his office in the White House. There's a couple of things:
one in a very literal sense. I learned how fuzzy the Justice department policies are
criminally indicting a vice president, to the extent that President Trump is trying to make sure that we don't have President pence and is trying to make sure that MIKE Pence is implicated.
Here I mean his lawyers learn about anchor arguing in the Mazar's case that just went against him in federal court in New York. They expl
We brought up out of nowhere by the way
community argument we're making we're it
explicit about the fact that the vice president doesn't get this immunity. The judge was like
that, then we will know
Trump leaves in real trouble when he throws his arms around MIKE Pence and just jumps in the ocean, so summer
That is an actually there were some dynamics like that between Nixon and Agnew back in seventy three and seventy four or seventy three, when Agnew at one point begged to be impeached, because he
thought that he would survive impeachment, and this would this would bring republican Party
since to his cause- and it would excite the base of this kind of argument- you hear from Republicans now- and he thought that if he was being impeached that might persuade the Justice Department to drop their indictment of him
and Nixon was very much against that, because he thought, if Agnew got impeached, he wasn't sure that he would survive and Agnew being removed from office. Nixon thought was actually bad for him, because Democrats hated Agnew more than they hated Nixon, and so they would worry if they took Nixon out first, that they'd end up with the President Agnew and that's terrible. He also did
want to get the wheels of impeachment going because he thought once they took out actionable they'd, be ready to go and then take a little warm up little stretch so that dynamic between presidents and vice presidents is, I think, really important. But the big lesson of bag men is that the Justice Department has to be good and it has to have people in it who are upstanding and who are patriots and who don't do parties and things for bad reasons and Elliot. Richardson is a freaking hero and we can't count on there being heroes. Although
come to find them and unexpected places the there is. There is now bill bars, narrowly Richards, but, to the extent that the the agony story told us anything, it was that the constitution doesn't crumble in the face of bad men, doing bad things. The constitution only crumbles when we can't fix that who and that's the question that we're facing
now- we're gonna have to end there, because we've had all these really depressing stories, and that was so hopeful at the end. So I think that's just the place to leave it finery. Thank you. Yeah! Everyone go by blow out. Thank you very, very much Rachel. Thank you. So much for doing
I love thanks for having me come back on a ninety one. Yes, you we got Rachel by everyone
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Transcript generated on 2019-10-11.