The President ignores the law and Congress in an effort to shut down further investigations, the federal government is woefully unprepared for future election sabotage, and former Vice President Joe Biden officially enters the Democratic primary. Then Mother Jones’s Ari Berman talks to Dan about the Supreme Court case over Trump’s effort to rig the Census in favor of Republicans. Also – Pod Save America is going on tour! Get your tickets now: crooked.com/events.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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later in the pod mother Jones is already Berman. Talk to Dan about the Supreme Court case over trumps attempt to rig the census, favour Republicans
that will talk about the president has responded to evidence that he obstructive justice by it
you're, just as even more the threat of foreign sabotage and twenty twenty and Joe Biden Entry into the democratic primary also be sure to check it
this episode of pod save the world were Tommy talks about the Trump administrations decision to reverse Obama's Cuba policy. In
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In the wake of what amounted to an impeachment referral from Special Council Robert Mahler over the president's multiple attempts to obstruct justice, many Democrats, like Nancy Policy of argued that the house should first conduct a series of additional investigations before making any decisions on impeachment. Well, here's how Trump has responded to that strategy
over the last week. First, he refused to follow the law and make his tax returns available to Congress. Second, he sued House democratic
prevent them from getting its financial records and finally, he announced at the wheel
Those will be fighting all the subpoenas issued by Congress because he doesn't want any of his staff. Testifying
any of the many scandals and potential crimes committed by the President and his administration, Sudan
president is once again placing himself above the law and above an equal branch of government. What's his bed here? Does he think he's going to get away with us, or is it just that he thinks he'll get away with this at least until two thousand and twenty in the election?
Both probably I that he is a two pronged strategy here, which one you point out with, which is to put run out the clock.
try to get as much distances. He can make these things workforce. What way slowly
report that is tilted in his favor and hope that he can get to the election beef get past the election before having to turn over. All of these fell incriminating documents or have these incriminating witnesses
speak in public and the second one is to fight right. He like he fights everything. It is
good for his base to be seen as fighting. He is a person who needs aggrieved
to get up in the morning, and so this is like he wants to
muddy. The waters he's very he's very good at this right, which is to take everything, make it seem like a giant fucking mess and then try to cast blame on both sides. So now, if he is fighting with, it,
regrets that allows him to proclaim his exoneration say he's innocent, saying he is being persecuted by a group of,
Liberal Socialists a Yossi replicates or whenever how we want to describe it,
I mean demagogues need villains and they need to play victim. I may need to then say that not only are they victims, but all their supporters of victims, and we are fighting against all of the same enemies, all the people who don't like us this. As you know, this has been trumps
message since two thousand and sixteen, and just because now he's the guy in the power he doesn't want to give up on the fact that he's still you know this victim being attacked by the establishment. I also think he is
There is a little bit of a bad here then he's betting Democrats won't do anything about it or can't do anything about it. Right, yeah, I think that's possible. They keep yeah definite passed. What he thinks that wall back off in a day can the Democrats can be bullied by tromp? There's, not a lot of history, the shows it Nancy plus you, so you can be bullied by whenever you want to try to him. I mean how how is would trumps doing different than how other presidents have responded to congressional oversight, and how is it the same like? How do we respond to you know when the
how's Republicans tried to conduct oversight and all these investigations into been gazing and whatnot. Well, I think there are two analogous examples right there
is how Bill Clinton response
then a council investigations, it gets him and then impeachment and others how
Obama in the more natural course of business, responded to republican oversight
My very zealous overlays Alice conspiracy, theory, spewing republican majority in the house
So, in the bill booklet example, Tropic sort of re running some of that play right assessment,
this for two years.
which is ah prosecutes
the prosecutor. You know
this into a treasure into a big political fight, fight every thing
and he's using a message. You know it's sort of buried underneath all the insanity as a lot of trumps, Reggie,
is, but a message of,
I want to legislate, they want to investigate, and that was
a powerful message for Brookland Trump has not had the concept that context.
different here the investigations very different here. The collective punishment was around a
personal conduct issue, not a professional conduct issue. Early sets up a Clytemnestra Clinton team was
rang it, and so they may be had a better argument in the Obama administration. Republicans wanted the White House staff
I defy, and we did not testified now
Then there are legitimate issues of executive privilege that deal with Congress. Getting too
to the pressing this decision making process visa his or her staff right. That is something that has been litigated in the court's many times and president's do have
have some rights there and we exercise those rights at time. Now what we didn't
a wise, deny everything we had.
Non White House officials testify within order them not to testify. We,
negotiated to try to find compromises to try to find the ground between a partisan fishing expedition and Congress is legitimate rights of others
So maybe a White House official didn't testify, but they were conducting interview about a topic like Benghazi or fastened furious, where
even though they motivations leading some other public oversight was absurd. They their right to do so was not, and so we know we tried
on a compromise. They are just trying to have a fight and it gets very different. Yet we also didn't have a special council who concluded that Barack Obama had obstructed justice and tried to impede an investigation into foreign sabotage. In addition to another, I don't know ten or so
federal investigations into Brok, Obama's businesses, his inauguration, his transition, his administration and a whole bunch of other things. So that was one big difference, as well as a fundamental difference. Obama was not running a low rant criminal conspiracy.
The of lovers and Trump is so the situations are least different in that level,
wasn't that wasn't a mob boss in charge of the government. That was a that was a slight difference. So working Democrats do here and what should they do?
do they need. Is it? Is it time for the Democrats to be more aggressive because it does seem, at least from my point of view, the trump is basically forcing their hand in terms of impeachment proceedings, because he
no there's big policies over therein lie Democrats, if that's ok, let's just conduct a bunch of oversight investigations as not jump the gun on impeachment here, but he is then being open and
Vons Trump is saying: well, I'm not going to let you conduct these oversight. Investigations cuz, I'm going to stonewall, I'm not going to make any
people available for testimony. I'm going to give you the documents that you need so fuck. You well lament
this question: do you think the Democrats have been not aggressive enough? Put it
side. What's happened since the Mulder report came out on Thursday, but do you think to date on the on the investigator? So if today they haven't been aggressive enough.
So I don't have. The word is aggressive because they ve obviously been moving for
word on a number of fronts in terms of investigations, and a number of committee is right. You get today,
jerry you got. All the different committees are investigating what they should be investigating
I dont know that there has been a cohesive, consistent message and drumbeat from coming from the Democrats of it. The american people know exactly what they are investigating and why, like it has seemed a bit sky.
shot, and so yes- oh I don't know- I mean. Obviously some of this was Democrats were we
for the Mulder report now. The Mulder report is here- and I do have this feeling like. Ok, what are we doing? What's the plan? He, I think that's right. I think.
In the defence of Sir
of the democrats- who I think are very good at this- like jury, Nobbler and Leisure Cummings- is that
The courts have shown that Congress has to show that they have made legitimate attempts to acquire the documents or get the witnesses before
subpoenas content motions in those sorts of things start to flow, and so they ve been doing that now.
The two challenges I think the Democrats face is why- and I do think
They are more afraid of a backlash for overreach in the restoration of trumps than a backlash for under reach, and I think that should be inverted because, not being
aggressive enough, would really does
a disservice to the voters who turned out too
Romeo lacked a check on the chaos in corruption in Washington, and then
second pieces. I dont think that everyone, particularly the ways and Means Committee which has been tasked with trying to get trumps tax returns, has fully
embraced. What tromp strategy is which, as we said, is to run out the clock, so the tax rate,
in particular to work their way through the courts, probably all the way to the Supreme Court and that's gonna, take time
so every day that you're, like a wedding, Steve Menuhin, analyze the legality of their classes a day more. That is more clock. A chop is burdensome
I think. In that sense we should shorten the time lines, but we still have they sought.
Do the work of trying to get the stuff to legitimate means, because even if we all know that Europe is back,
while the norms and naturally the course of a law, have adjusted for that new reality in american politics. Yeah I mean, I also think look I I can be persuaded that I know we have debated whether or not they should begin impeachment proceedings. All of us have debated this now quite a few times. I can be persuaded that Democratic should pursue a series of investigations on the way to potential impeachment proceedings, but I do think that
Democrats need to be very clear what the road map is an exactly what they're doing and what the timely
is and what happens at the end of this process, because right now, I think a lot of people watching
Democrats are doing you know
It rightly assume that democratic, just trying to say
we don't really want to impeach. The president were too afraid of the backlash, so we're gonna
we're doing all these investigations and hopefully, by the time we finished.
instigations impeachment fervour will have died down, and no one will bug us about this, so we can all just move on to the election like it. It does feel like that's happening now.
Big Hillary Clinton, read in a bed yesterday
in the Washington Post also suggesting the Democrats conductor series investigations on the way to impeachment, but I bet she
an interesting point which, as you know, she was obviously a part of it.
or gate hearings when she was a young staffer and she said it in Watergate. Democrats held a series
of investigations and hearings very publicly, so that their wasn't just a report that the american people were digesting, but that people could see on television. You know just what rich
Nixon had done, because there was a like a long line of witnesses and everything was on people's televisions. Stuff like that, and so is. The purpose of the next couple months is to
basically make the Mulder report come to life on television for people, so that now that, in the course of all the
congressional hearings. The american people can see exactly what Trump has done and here from the witnesses themselves and see the evidence then great, but it is just a stalling tactics by Democrats. Then I think
that's going to be very problematic and I think you're right that people who voted in twenty eighteen and obviously they voted. You know to protect their health care more than anything, but people didn't vote for a check on Trump. That was part of what people voted for and
If they see the Democrats just sort of like move along and tried to tell people. Are you no doctor?
worry we're takin care rip it then they don't actually do anything. I think that could be a problem. I think the question I will I promised myself. I would not reopen the media.
you're great impeding debated what high costs in the slack channel everything else and authority, I thought you, John and Tommy had a just a really great conversation about this on Tuesday
I do think there is this question that underlies whatever your strategy is. If you want to get too impeachment, which is due using impeachment inquiry to build the political support for impeaching trump, or do you build the political support for impeaching chomp and then decide if
should open in appeasement inquiry right like that is sort of the two
like any one, with the possible exception of a brief moments, Danny Whores life, anyone is advocating that we take them all reports. Stick it to draw.
impasse, leader of some message, bills on job trading and tax cuts for jobs, for composition of jobs overseas right
sort of these two choices which is
hearings in the context of an impeachment inquiry, or hearings potentially followed by an impeachment inquiry, and I think that is over.
the only other thing I'd say about it. Is you only?
opening impeachment agree of Democrats are united around that question, and it does not appear to me that they are yet united
that question so what
the process of you're gonna get there, you gotta get Democrats united. Otherwise it's a shit you of epic proportions that will on doubtingly benefit tromp of were divided on it,
yeah, and what I'm trying to figure it is. I just don't know like what kind of
ah ha moments might happen over the next couple of months through these hearings that are as big as the release of the Mulder report
so that people can so the Democrats who are wavering or other people can say- oh yeah now he deserves impeachment. Like
I dont know how you can build more support for impeachment on it being based on any specific
violation or moment beyond what we just saw in the Mulder report. That's the only than that keeps you know that that I keep wondering about so well,
I mean both vote will keep talking about it yet will keep talking about. But here's thing whether Democrats pursue more investigations or impeachment, no matter what this is essentially a political and communications battle. Who has the more persuasive message trumpet the Democrat? So what is trumps message in this fight? We talked about this.
a little bit if you mention he's saying you know we should be legislating, not investigating that, and you know these are all my enemies and they're coming after me, and this whole thing was a witch hunt and we should investigate them. That seems to be Trump's message. Is there anything else Trump's trying to
say here, get across the
It is enough. Twitter, followers, Lou Dobbs, is awesome either. This is the problem of tromp always is. There is actually a good message and lake I will
what they want, investigate addition to just the general rhyming couplet of it
He also is spinning
much time doing other extraneous shit? That he's not a good message for that. Right is not just that he's undisciplined, that he
Levin messages that he is doing just dumping
All over the place, wives, Reddy, Fox NEWS, so he's not a
It is not a good avatar for the idea of focus on good government use of time, and so that is the problem. Theory
we as a good message, you just a bad messenger for it right anyway,
there's been no evidence over the last couple years. That tromp has ever tried to legislate anything or push heading of herve issues onto the agenda. Right I mean, except for
The caravans coming am a democratic right to get me. Those have been from
two main messages since he has taken office. The Democrats were to get me. This is a witch hunt and by the way round, people are invading the country and they're going to kill you in your sleep. That is that's the
tired of drums message every once in a while, there is a take what your health care and went to give you a tax cut a couple trade things going on this North Korea, best friends with him young.
This is a couple of their messages there, but but those are the primary messages when Clint was being investigated, couldn't get a pretty. You know tight message which was like you know,
trying to protect Medicare, Medicaid and education funding and the environment, and also that the economy,
going well. So why investigating with Obama, when the Republicans investigating saying we just come out of this great recession were true
bring jobs back, I'm trying to work hard to bring the economy back so, like these other presidents have had message. Good messages to counter the investigations. Trump doesn't necessarily have that go in for him. He could, but he's just hasn't, try,
for the last couple years. That's right Clinton had an identity that was built up since the ninety two campaign. As some
that you may not trust you may not like personally, and we know, as we learned.
You know in his presidency is capable of some pretty disgusting conduct, but people believed Republicans and Democrats in advance believe that he worked is
ass, often enough people, he really. I only hope that identity, so he was the perfect avatar for
this is the guy. You know homework for youth. The last dog dies like that was it they were. He was pushing on an open door message rice.
Obama, with some of the public, if you were just kind of saw out the the far far right, but even
you know a mainstream Republicans, independence, Democrats, ugly, room Obama was a person of moral and rectitude and and good ethics, and so
It was not when Republicans we're trying to like spinning crazy theory.
Is about Benghazi and fastened fears and always are the things that are bomber with somehow corrupt. The Barrack people believe it. So he had advanced trumped promised miracle,
will they he's incredibly distracted. He doesn't really focus on his job and is deeply corrupt. So he is not the right person.
this message. The problem is, he is a messenger,
paragraphs dont have a messenger they have a thousand people talking
now that none of whom people know and none of whom have a ninety eight like Trump like the world's biggest mega fun, and they like no real way to get their message out other than a couple of days, side, cable, hits and ten thousand twitter followers, so whether it's investigations or impeachment, what should our message be? What should Democrats messages be and who? Who exactly, are we trying to push
here. What's the audience I think are- and this is really hard because we are- we do know that public opinion on
Russia and obstruction of justice has been pretty steady from the right
moreover, didn't really change alighted, didn't help. Tromp thinks they bar exoneration bullshit letter didn't help drop the maid
His numbers have dropped a pointer too, since the report came out, but it's all kind of statistical noise has been pretty steady and
So it's not clear that addition,
Focus on that specific thing is going to move number is dramatically, there's not a lot of evidence of that.
I think that what we do know that tromp that corruption, including
but not exclusive to Russia and obstruction of justice is a powerful
So how do you wrap this into a larger message about tromp, putting himself
his own political and financial interests above the interests of the american people like that is or them ass, any democratic scream. What are you
trying to hide like where do you hiding why
won't you beyond us of the american people, and then you say the reason he
tell you won't tell us the truth. The reason he has stonewalling here, because he doesn't want you to know that insist that he is, he is putting money. His own pocket is helping us. Businesses is putting himself before
right? I think it has to be tat it s a ladder up to a larger message of is simply about. This was not a trial right where this is not long or you're, not trying to convict tromp in the quarter public opinion. You were trying to draw tell a story about him in that story. Has two speakers something beyond an issue that is already polarize people into their camps in they haven't really move from yeah
he, the guy ran promising to put America. First, all he's ever done his patrol first he betrayed the country to win an election. He betrayed the country to enrich himself with a big deal in Russia that he tried to hide from the american people, and then he refused to defend the country from foreign sabotage and v,
tried to cover it up and if it happens again, he still not to defend the country from foreign sabotage he's been trying to cover it up again and all because he's worried about his own election, his own political legitimacy and his financial gains. That's all he cares about, and I think you know
That message is a drumbeat. What like people think that about Trump anyway or at least think something in there
of that they think he's corrupt. They think he cares only about himself and on Turkey really cares about them. They think he's a liar. They Vicky's dishonest, as is all you know what people believe about him, but I think the Democrats need to
pound on that message from now,
till the election yeah. You need a flip side of that message for sure it would Democrats need to talk about what they're, for what they're going to do for people absolutely huge part of the message, but the story that we tell about Trump has to be that he puts himself first. He doesn't put America first to me that that, to me is the most salient message: yeah, that's right! The challenge in it is,
Oh who trump is when Democrats have to do is show why? Who trump is? Is bad for them? Right right did that tromp comes with a bunch of chaos in crushing, but how does that affect their lives? What are the consequences to their wives? Of truck being? Who
Europe is there. There are no available voters. The Democrats who think Trump is honest, forthright, ethical, etc. They they Bailey, think he's a
a they'd everything's a liar and if it is fairly absurd, but they think that that doesn't affect their lives in the debt is better than whoever the corrupt. More traditional politician is that that is the potential turn. If and in that, then that is the sort of the the key part of the story
not who trump is bad, how who trump is affects your life? Yet ants are you're gonna get back some of those. You will convince some people
If the sidelines the you know, the four plus million
Amaterasu set out two thousand and sixteen how you're going to convince the the voter to switch from Obama to Trump tire going to keep the voters who switched from Romney to Clinton in our fold
the like that is those are the three target. Universes and you're gonna make sure that message works of of them, yet look going back to twenty sixteen there,
was a cohort of voters who told exit pollsters on election day. I do not approve of Trump, I do not like Trump, but I ve
it for him, there's a cohort of voters who said they didn't like Donald Trump, and they didn't like Hillary Clinton and for vote
who had unfavourable ratings of both Trump and Clinton Trump. One those voters by seven to ten point something like that and the results like
I would these people who said they don't mean, there's a bunch people who just like Trump and they like his racism and they like his
a phobia they like it all right. That was like a big part of airspace. There's somebody was that I dont like Trump
in voting for him anyway, because it only killer either.
So why did he when those voters, because they thought well he's gonna blow up the system right or he's gonna, bring change to Washington or he's a fucking business man he's going to create jobs, whatever bullshit people?
leaved, but you're right. What they thought is. Even I don't like him. Maybe he's going to make my life a little better, and what Democrats have to say is
No, he fuckin lied to you. He didn't make you live better at all. He did what he's always done for the last seventy something years of his,
miserable life and he looked out for himself and
ensure that he was ok and you don't give a shit about anyone else. That's what happened and its interest in that you can see people from different sides of the ideological spectrum in the Democratic party. Making this argument, Bernie Sanders of all people is out there almost every day. Saying Trump lie to you: Trump broke his promise. He said he was going to improve your life and he didn't, and then you can see people like Joe by
with that message as well and made more moderate and centrist it. So it is an interesting like a can. Unify people across the democratic party. Fat Trump basically broke his promise to people, even if, even if you didn't like Trump and thought he was
fix things. He didn't fix any that I always wonder, and I'd like to
did I see research on this about whether the broken promise messages, persuasive yeah.
Because people know he's a liar, so are they shocked by it? And so is it more
port, that he broke the promise or is it like you
that the ceiling in fact that he promised me acts it. He didn't do acts or is it what x is right? Is it just simply the mere fact that heap
this is less and less about the promises and more about the populism which is he said
He was going to take
Wall Street protect Medicare, protect Medicaid, protect? You don't knock.
Ask us the to rich people in under a you know. You can make this very succinct argument that corporate profits are up corporate taxes or down your wages, are flat. You're healthcare is up the cost of colleges up. The cost of your of food is up. Are you better off and there you can make lake?
like they're like? Is that the better argument then Trump said he would do this from city? We do this, he didn't do those things right. I think that, like Burg, like Don T, know the answer that anyone knows the answer, that it is gonna be an interesting strategic calculus going
or because with a normal politician, the broken promises thing is incredibly upon. It was the death of George H, W Bush for saying he was going to. We said, read my lips, no new taxes and then he
gave people new taxes, but its trump unique in the sense that they dishonesty is pressed into the baseline,
although even with that George W Bush example, the broken promise was promised. That gets to a certain economic populism right. He said he was a generator tax than I did. I think I think it's a combination of both right, like I think, if you just do a ton of broken promises made on all have an economic scene.
To them. It doesn't really work as well, though I will say that even for the immigration hawks out there or the xenophobia that their drum promised tat, he would fix immigration.
didn't do that trim primacy, build a wall, didn't do that either now a whole bunch of people in Trump's base are going to say. I don't really care that you can build a while, because I know that he
acts like a xenophobe, that's really all I wanted to present puts it certainly have a bunch of people like that, and there are some people who just happy. The trump gave the middle finger to Washington and two elites and to the establishment, even if it didn't produce any real results which it didn't. But again those people were not really trying to reach as much for trying to reach
both proposed plan to get our base. I devote training it non voters out to vote and then trying to get a bunch of people who, in some of the swing voters that we captured and twenty eighteen out of it.
So we'll say positive
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Here one, whether the the taxpayers platform cost about the same amount as a single face to face session best a volume.
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I had to the next cheery topic. The New York Times published a story this week it former homeland security,
secretary Kirsten Nielsen had wanted to make election security a top priority, but
worn by the White House Chief of staff, never to bring it up around Trump, because it would mean
him. Angry. The peace said quote in
The sheer mic Mulvaney made it clear that Mr Trump still equated any public discussion of malign russian election activity with questions about the legitimacy of his victory. As a result, Mr Nielson,
eventually gave up on her effort to organise a White House meeting of cabinet secretaries to coordinated strategy to protect next year's elections. Also, the sweet Jared Kirshner said he thinks the Mahler investigation has had a much harsher impact on our democracy than quote a couple
Facebook adds Dan. What do you think if you're the Russians do even bother to change up your strategy and twenty twenty, or do you just pretty much
double down or what worked so well in TWAIN. Sixteen known the trumps, not gonna, do a damn thing about it, so that near time, story caused me to nearly spontaneously combust up, not really for two reasons: wine, which is generally as a country. What the fuck are we doing
The fact that we can't even organise a single White House meeting around a looming threat to the country in actual attack on democracy is bananas like that should scale if he should be because the meeting is the easy part. The hard part is what comes is executed.
And it comes out of the meeting, and so we should be very worried and not just about Russia by Hurricane Preparedness,
natural disaster- the fucking measles outbreak, as happened in America, from our anti vex, her commander from energy, food and tweeting about this stuff,
locked I'd like there's a lot is happening and not a lot of carbon to people on deck. To do these things,
and also by the way I would just. I would just say that, for that reason, this is why Democrats should be talking about the Mulder report too,
because I do think, if all we do is say, trumps committed a bunch of crime
he's a criminal he's cropped whatever you know, people could say like well like: are they petty
crimes were committed crimes are they, but what Trump has done is
who impeded investigation into foreign sabotage of our democracy. That may happen again like it does get to a national security argument that, like Trump trumpets not defending the country, he is not willing to keep you safe because he
care more about his own political standing. I do think that's the powerful message, as you just demonstrate. The second reason had story drove me insane, which was there is a world in which Trump actually benefits from
low expectations that the media puts on the way that story is written. Is that true?
can't have the media, because he is too much of a toddler to have a conversation about russian interference because it goes to his insecurity or as anger at the mother investigation in it puts
the motivation and the most benign way possible from it doesn't speak highly of him as a human being or his qualifications to be president
but it also does it even contemplate the other
possibility, which is just as likely or more likely, which is that he once russian Interference in this election, because he knows it will benefit here
He is someone with a long, documented history of cheating. We know for a fact. He too
to win the selection, both in the illegal
it's a stormy Daniels to prevent that story from coming out the efforts to collect cortical D.
on Hillary Clinton from the Russians asking the Russians to it to hacker emails to he cheated
on its taxes. We know we know in a new book. Each is a gulf which is the least fuckin surprising thing ever so. Why is,
something now that he is openly inviting rushing your ferris because it is hidden thinks he needs it to win what is a very close election and such like. We should spend as much time for
about that is just go. There goes trump again forgot to take his nap and he's grumpy, so we can't talk about an attack on America. Yeah I mean he's publicly asked Russia to help him win election before when he asked them to get Hillary's email. You know July of twenty sixteen, so this is. This is nothing new he has invited.
foreign sabotage of our elections? His tv lawyer, already Giuliani just the other day, say what's wrong. With said, what's wrong with getting information from the Russian to help you and election, I mean it's just it's all there in plain sight, it's all there in plain sight and look what we know from the mother,
or end from reports. You know over the last month is,
not only mean it, you know too Jared fucking stupid point. So wasn't a couple of Facebook adds either they hacked into Democrats email system, they stole emails, they stole documents, they try to then publish those documents through Wikileaks and they targeted voting systems in all fifty states. They actually targeted the voting systems themselves and if we think that they're not gonna do that this time around,
and were sort a crazy picpus like why, wouldn't what what incentive for the Russians have not to pursue this again, you know Mauler said they did it.
but no one in the. U S. Government has really done anything to stop them, punish them with sort of dragged our feet on sanctions are but few sanctions here and there, but the Trump Administration is drag their feet on sanctions on really.
punishing Russia Tromp is out there saying Amelia.
Times, including when he stood next to Vladimir Putin, that the election sabotage didn't really happen and, as you said,
we know the trump really wants to have helped winning
election, no matter who he gets it from whether its
legal, not illegal, cheating, not he just doesn't care he wants to help to when the election he'll take it from anywhere in any one eye
used to believe. Based on our experience working in a government. When I talk to people, you know
in our view in our friends and family, who we know, haven't working government who just would be panicked about the state of origin,
protect America against terrorism or crime or hurricanes or whatever else, because tromp isn't idiot and he is staffed by idiots ads
so. This sort of you is like our wheat is coming country, Toby screwed
and, I would say, on a certain I would argue, on a certain set of things there it like you. We know this it there
career professionals, bureaucrats
patriots who would be working on these things and watch from tweeted or what he was good weather is gonna Fox NEWS or not or Stephen. Miller's presence in the in the White House were pretty irrelevant to that fact. Right that govern it was kind of going on
beneath this is the chaos and I actually no longer believe that. I believe that to be true in twenty, seventeen and two thousand and nineteen are much more worried about it, because the government is a fucking, ghost town
The White House is not hired people to replace the people who left half the cabinet is acting officials, it's basically being run by a temptation. Seaweed on sector defence, when I'm sector of homeland Security
It was so all up and down in that has an impact right. People are the company, people are leaving because are being pushed out, the they're just it's empty right. We don't even have people to do the job.
and that is very that that is worrisome and it allows sort of the nefarious motivations around. So they like right potential. Russian inferences went re election to like trickled down and have a real impact. Weird there I dont worry, there's no sort of quota quote patriotic deep state.
Protecting us from trumps incompetence anymore, he's really what are the people, but no able judges and should be scary, and the question is what can Democrats do about it? One thing Democrats decided to do is pledged that they will not take advantage of any hacker illegally obtained information for political campaign purposes. Something that obvious
The term campaign will not commit to deal with is the right move for democratic campaign.
In the day and see and democratic super packs and all the rest to take this pledge. Or are we putting ourselves at a disadvantage here? Considering that the Trump campaign is welcoming foreign interfere
in the election and by the way reporters and journalists are surely going to print information about hacked
stolen emails again they have. They haven't made any indication that they're gonna change their ways from twenty sixteen, when they all have you no running blogs about various Wikileaks dumps. I'm really torn on this question. I think for one hundred percent certainty. Democrats should not
use any stolen or half materials against other Democrats in the primary yeah right lay
some if the russian somehow were to penetrate Joe Biden, are common heritage, Warner, Bernie, Sanders, email systems and
Those emails Democrats should pledge not to use out against other Democrats
now in some ways. Maybe this is a hypothetical situation- will never come to pass because there doesn't seem because the we didn't
this and twenty sixteen, it wasn't like there, a bunch of hacked trump emails at the Clinton campaign or the Dnc decided not to use, because, even though
the iron and in some the other rolling pretty entities were reportedly hacked those either
somehow did make it through the Wikileaks editing process, and we never saw those
were they to come.
Good say we're in a general election in its democratic nominally acts against tromp and somehow a someone is hacked trumps, tax returns or other stuff. Should a Democrat not use that? I'm not so
you're about that, as you have shown about it, but this world of unilateral disarmament against Trump, you know, seems much her. That's wise thought great off your great about it, but I don't know that we reckon they get. You don't tell me said recounting his high school football glory, daisies Fuckin sycamore victories
scurried? Is I'm not sure whether its
right or wrong. I just don't know if it's feasible may do.
that there is. There is a debate about whether Jerry Wrong, but what I want,
Why? I'm wondering about it was whether its feasible, because the way this plays in the general election is not that someone hacks trumps tax returns and then privately gives it to the democratic nominations, as ok do with
what you will what happens as they get hacked it's out in the public.
Every single media outlets does a story on trumps hack tax returns and what is the democratic nominee gonna? Do I'm not going to comment on those stories about trumps leak tax returns, because I had a pledge not to use stolen information to our advantage. Like bats icon,
happens right when, like everyone in the country in the world is talking about it because it's been made public. So I just I don't know if it's a feasible pledge for the general election because of the way hacked information is disseminated through today's media.
Environment just so. I think you're you're exactly right that this is probably a dumb discussion, because that the real problem here is not the trump campaigns at the Democrats. It's the media.
So they're the ones scenario? Is it sort of the equivalent of the trunk tower meeting right? So, all of a sudden, the democratic in other research shortly democratic nominee opened their email adds its trumps tax returns. So what do you do there right
like that's it that's a different question, then just someone hacked trumps actors and give them to the New York Times in your time. Reports on them and then are you obviously not wrong. You're, not gonna, pretend like they don't exist. That would be an absurd proposition. I think a democratic keeping that receives stolen materials has to call the FBI like that. If that is the only viable right thing, you don't mind if I say that as someone who worked on the Gore campaign when the porcupine receive stolen debate materials from George W Bush debate, perhaps
and the first thing they did that our campaign did was called the F B. I mean you didn't write back and say if it's what I think this is, I love it, especially in the summer will
my twenty four year. Old self would have done that. But I was
I have received the hidden someone higher up on the food chain, received the debate, prep materials. Ok, let's turn a toy twenty.
Four months of speculation? Vice president Joe Biden has made an official
once again running for president in a video release this morning, Biden skip the usual talk of policy,
his record or his biography, and instead talked about trumps reaction to the White Supremacist Rally in Charlottesville and twenty seventeen. He said in the video clip
We are in the battle for the soul of this nation. I believe history will look back on four
this president and all he embraces as an abhorrent moment in time. But if we give donald-
eight years in the White House? He will forever.
and fundamentally alter the character of this nation who we are- and I cannot stand by and watch that happen.
buying would be seventy eight. The day he takes office, he served in the Senate for decades before joining Barack Obama's presidential ticket. Two thousand eight.
Months leading up to his announcement. Buttons long record has come under close scrutiny, particularly on criminal justice reform in abortion, but he comes into the race with significant name recognition and he's consistently performed at the top of poles of democratic primary voters. Thus far
his advisors are telling reporters at their strategy is to just let Joe Beach YO
and what did you think of his video and his overall plan to win the nomination? I mean I guess I would give the caviar first that, like Joe Biden I M from Delaware, there was a small play.
I have seen Joe Biden known Joe Biden, been around your Biden, my entire life, I've very
vivid memories of meeting him for the first time when I was I thinking first grade. Our second grade at the flower market, which is sort of like, are state fair in Wilmington, Delaware.
so I'm not like I, and we worked with him in the White House he's been made.
Twenty six thousand seventeen and speaks to his age and law in logjam in Washington up through to that
seventeen. He had been either my senator over my vice president. My entire life adds, as has been well reported about that young
saw I've like I care, pretend to be completely objective here.
but other video was good. I mean a very traditional right like by
seems to be making an argument. That is a different version of trumps right normal in a lot of campaigns. You have a argument for nostalgia on one side in an argument for progress on the other right that trump me
Amerika. Great again is an argument for a older, more conservative, conservative, wider version of America and Trump was able or that job.
MS argue. It seems to be arguing for a different form of nostalgia. Maybe you know I saw some Us Edison Twitter, an argument to make America two thousand. Sixteen again Dave Waigel quoted some
in organizer, saying that it's unusual to have two people making nostalgic arguments. Just four different versions of the past.
so you know it's hard to say how to go. I think you know we'll have a conversation shortly about his strengths and weaknesses, but I thought, as in announcement video, it
he is making a nostalgia argument of sorts. It worked very well as that is it you when I was watching
is partially ethic related to sort of mild in all of our long term, relationship with Joe Biden in our political wives is it felt like a something that
happen before the time of tromp like if you didn't see the videos of the Nazis, in the words of Trump survey you
this Joe Biden making a case quoting you know, Thomas J,
research or whatever else in talking in these sort of planet platitudes
bowed. The soul of America fell just like a different version of politics, or maybe a
your politician and aversion politics, it existed in a pre trunk television germ movie. Now I mean what I will make the same stipulation I did not. I have not known Joe Biden as long as you have, but ever since he joined the campaign and away and then worked in the White House with us, I have come to know him. Well, I think, he's a good man. I don't think he's a perfect person that he's made plenty of mistakes, but he is someone who has learned from Turkish has shown the capacity to learn from his mistakes. He has shown the capacity to grow, to change and, I think, he's just a fundamentally decent and good human being, and so yet that that's that's what I like about Joe Biden. I think the question is
and the question revolves around basically him claiming that Trump as some sort of aberration right and I dont think that as a settled question among voters, I think for a lot of liberals, especially those of us who pay close attention to politics. We dont believe Trump is an aberration. We believe that he is a symptom, not the cause. We have said this before and that the Republican Party has become rotten to its core and has sort of radicalized over the last ten fifteen twenty years, and the question is: has Joe Biden not seen,
that radicalization of the Republican Party, or does he still believe that the Republican Party today is the Republican Party that he worked with
when he was a twenty nine year old, Senator thirty hurled senator
in the early seventys, which has a republican party where you could disagree on big issues, but still come together and forge compromise and.
There is probably a lot of people out there. A lot of the Democrats, some Republicans who don't like Trump, some independent. You don't like Trump, who do believe the Trump as some kind of an aberration, and I think Biden, video basically makes argument to by using Charlottesville felt. Why did he decided decide to focus the whole video on Charlottsville, because Charlottesville is the most extreme example of this isn't just of republican president? We disagree with this is someone who said there's very fine people on both sides when Nazis and White supremacist March through the streets of Charlottesville, and that is well. You may have disagreed fundamentally with George W Bush, daddy
the worst president history, you know mostly because he took us to war in the wrong country. You know even he would not have called NEO Nazis in white supremacist, very fine people and other present, another republican president's wouldn't either Donald Trump has and so he's different. That's Joe Biden argument basically, and the question is you know
who enough people by that argument or do they think no trump is just the latest example of the republican parties radicalization and we need big, sweeping progressive change to fix this country. I think that's the questioner. I think that there is an open question about the political appeal of trumpets and aberration troubles, and aberration is important if you're making a soldier based argument for your kind
see, which is if we get rid of trouble. You put me, and we will go back to this policy, this politics as usual, that you didn't love, but was better rightward, Democrats and Republicans kid we would.
I agree but get along
be less yelling, guest, less tweeting and, frankly, you'd? Probably pay lot lot less attention to politics, which is probably very appealing to a lot of people? Maybe not people are podcast but generally appealing, but there
really a question of the political appeal of that argument. But there is no question about the inaccuracy offend our
Russia is not an aberration. Europe is a direct
The extension of where the Republican Party has been going for a long time from Ronald Reagan,
states right speech to George W Bush is Willie Court needs to thee,
mama phobic nature of the Bush, two thousand and four campaign. Everything that happens is a day Brok, Obama stepped onto the national say and then
like like win or lose. If we beat tromp, we still have a giant fucking problem in this country, because the Republican Party is the Party of Troy
It was the party of Trot before trumps Europe. He just put a fucking name on it, like a third tier building in New York.
and so when he had, it may work politically as a
learning strategy. If you walk in there, thinking you're can be able to cut deals with Mitch Mcconnell because of your old relationships. That to me, as is a very naive
in Germany is not the only person who segment of workers a handful of Democrats who are yearning for this debt politics. The past mining Democrats have to recognise that politics is behind us and that is going to take real aggressive action to change it and that I think that that that that is going to be an important aspect of the Vine Kennedy. That's good that'll be worth discussing.
Yeah. No, I people ask me all the time what we're gonna do. What's gonna happen. If free you gave it a trumpet,
twenty slash, twenty and everything's back to normal. You know and like know, if we get rid of trump in twenty twenty personal Trump's, not going away is going to be the next president. Who's going to be on twitter, all the time
but on every fuckin, cable show and new showed unless he's in jail, John and unless jail writer. But
though, he also be around, but Tromp ism will still be around to, because that is the republican Party. Now the Republican Party is not going to go back to some in a wonderful time
when they are a bunch of moderates and the party and such a that got that's got that is gone for Good Fox NEWS is still there. You know
bright parts of the world are still there. The right wing lunatics of the world are still there, and a lot of them are populating the elected ranks of the republican Party. In fact, most of the elected ranks of the Republican Party and Democrats have to understand that reckon with Ray, like that's not to say,
We have to be a total war, all the time or the total war is something we should aspire to, but we should at least be realistic about the party that we're dealing with. That's what we're asking for here, just a realism about the party that we're dealing with here so is Biden immediately. The front runner yes,
yeah I mean just some fat, you know he's out polling Bernie,
Anders who is the next closest candidate to him by about eight points nationally and seven to eight points in Iowa, according to the average poles,
he's got the highest favorability ratings in the field, and he has relish.
If we allow pretty low unfavourably ratings, so yeah
you know he by in a word. We have this conversation couple weeks ago by
any Sandford was the front runner and he was because by Anne had an officially announced yet, but now that bind announces and we will see what happens to the poles over the next couple weeks, but I think it's pretty fair to claim that
the front runner in here, I think we should it's worth discussing- hits this historic strengths and weaknesses. Canada, when we
for he like right now, whose numbers are held up by three thinks nay my day
a perception that he is the most electable democratic with the army.
The consistent caviar that no one will select ability is in those who think they do are often operating I'd, gender and racial stereotypes that lead that leads have usually somehow, for some reason, a white man is them.
natural person, which we know from two thousand eight. You doesn't twelve in the two thousand and eighteen may terms. That is not the case that dementia, Hillary Clinton winning the popular vote two dozen sixteen and the third
is a close association with Brok Obama, who has a ninety, five percent are proliferating among Democrats, which is leading
bite into receive north of forty percent
The african american vote in pulling in that is both important and her
of propping up its numbers, but.
When you are trying to accumulate the delegates, you need to win the non democratic nomination, the African
what's are actually because of the way congressional districts are drawn more valuable than any other group, because you have the ability to net the most delegates from majority african american districts if you're pulling strongly with that group
yeah? Now the question is
those sustainable over time name. I d,
is, by its very nature, a diminishing resource right as more people get name. I d that your vanish in ECHO's down elect ability. He
he is going. How he runs is right now he is seen as most likeable candidate based on what people know of him and his association the to winning national campaigns. By now he's a candidate
right now, he's got to show is like Billy every day if his campaign in twenty sixteen looks at all like his campaign, so two thousand and eight and one thousand nine hundred and eighty eight, then that perception, flexibility could have rode dry quickly,
the third question is there's gonna be a battle over just who is the heir to the Obama legacy is someone who is a somewhat like Biden, who can be seen as a
go back to that legacy or can be seen as someone Like Elizabeth Warren
commonly Harris or Corey Poker or better worker, Mayor PETE, who can be seen as the next step bright
and who's gonna take the baton from from Obama and sort of finnish that work
They are the next generation of young, progressive leadership in this country and that those are all
the question now, the challenges are
very long voting record with a lot of troubling votes, particularly in the end with the view of hindsight, but even many of them even troubling at the time, and we know we will we,
Miss did not mention that he was most recently involves. Anna,
research is a lot of criticism for being inappropriate, inappropriate, touching getting inappropriately close to women that, ah, that
That really is ITALY's had to deal with that of how we deal with that didn't indicate. I think a lot of money with the right word is didn't indicate a real understanding of the gravity of the situation and if he that is not dealt with, that is also a huge problem in this election. I think I think,
That is right for people who do not want Joe Biden to be the parties nominee of which there are quite a few in the activists in based community and probably other people's well. One thing I would caution against is making the argument that Joe Biden is out of step out of touch with where the Democratic Party is right. Now because I d
No, that that's true. I mean he in a roughly half the voters in the democratic primary described themselves as moderate or conservative. Another thing to keep in mind fifty six percent of democratic voters in twenty eighteen in these last midterms or over fifty, while just twenty nine percent were below forty. So you do have a quite a big.
hoard in this party of older Democrats, who were more moderate or conservative, who won't necessarily see Joe Biden troublesome record as a deal breaker, partly
because these are people who may have evolved on all of these positions themselves and partly because, when Nathan,
about Joe Biden, unlike as you said, he's got near universal name recognition. Almost every one knows who Joe Biden is when they think of Joe Biden. They have a strong correlation to Brok Obama, they think. Ok, this is this right. This is a guy who was vice president,
to the most popular democratic president in my lifetime and he was a good progressive. Vice president, he gonna jump. The gun came out
for gay marriage, even before Obama Dead, because he let it slip on meat, the press release view
the memories that a lot of voters, and not just old.
voters by labour at em, like you said, african american voters, youngsters all kinds of voters. These are the memories, these people that people have of Joe Biden. So then to say, oh, but look at this record in the seventies, Eightys and Ninetys. That's way more conservative than it should be, which is true to say. Look at that record is going to cause I'm cognitive.
Dissidents with a lot of voters now cannot change over time. If one or more candidates makes a sustained argument against Joe Biden for the policies that he is supported in the past in his record YAP possibly, but that is not where we start. This race is just not. I, I think, reporters and
condense and political operatives probably spend more time thinking about older positions and not enough times thinking about current positions. Yes, anything voters, sort of thing about the opposite ray. I would
binds passports. Everyone's has votes, whether it's burning votes on gun,
come Harris's support policies as Ed on criminal justice or better
the votes in the house, all everyone's positions, are past. Positions are relevant, but voters put put a lot more value and where
stand today and they have they give you.
A wide berth for evolution if they can explain why they did what they did and why they would do something differently now and
Oh look. What's can be much more relevant to Biden, success or failure. There is not what he did a night: seventy five and eighteen ninety three, but what he says he's gonna do in January of twenty twenty one, and that is wrong because we don't we
no like his policy agenda is a blank slate like we ve aside.
Sort of this moderate. You know we don't know people to check, marks and punk acid cable, tv, cavy, cable,
tv jobs or whatever you no sign of this sort of moderate lane, but like what is his position on how we are going to be easy for public option is before Medicare fraud.
Simply improving easier. Where is he gonna be? Which is taxation plan was whereas seeking to be on regulation of Wall Street? All of those things can be more relevant. What he did before, although the stuff you did before is nothing it's irrelevant by it. People are often are more looking for the money back when it comes to what a politician is said and done yet. I totally agree that, and I think that if I was running a campaign primary campaign against or by an I would look at the policies proposing now and try to draw differences and and and not necessarily spend too much time on the record over the exception is where his past
occurred, sort of what it tells you about. The policies proposed he's proposing now so, for example, in two thousand and eight, and that primary Hillary Clinton vote for the Iraq war was a very big issue in that election, because Brok Obama was against it, but it wasn't just that Obama
harping on the vote for some of them. I wasn't that far in the past, it was had just been, you know,
couple years ago, we were still involved in the war right, but bread when we talked about that vote to say this is the kind of commander in chief
he'll, be now she's more likely to get us into war or to take us to war. Because of this vote because of her past foreign policy positions. That was the argument that he made so
If Joe Biden comes out with economic policies that are not sufficiently progressive, for example, then say:
oh by the way he supported this bankruptcy bill in two thousand and five that made it harder for people to declare bankruptcy. Working families declare bankruptcy, and now he refuses to go far enough on economic issue. Then I think that's.
a more salient argument that might be more effective than just pointing to things he said in the early seventies and positions he took an early seventies that he has since completely change here.
Ye like a model for the way to handle. This is how Cobbler Harris responded to your question on the broadcast a few weeks
oh about the true they much maligned and right frightful, rightfully maligned truancy.
I see that she had as sources could have district attorney
To say I was wrong here is why I wouldn't do it again is how you have to do it
I think if you can explain that well, you're gonna pass if it, but it's hard Biden has not.
someone who spent a lot of his time in life apologizing, rightly very pride, full individual p, his spear
No he's he's explanations of things like the the inappropriate touching from the Lucy that Lucy floors and others have talked about the
need a hit and need a hill hearing have not been, I would say, full of remorse, right or full of explanation Ryan, so that that will be a challenge. Its it is hard for. Peter is adding it's hard for me to do that in, but he's gonna have to if he wants to win this nomination yeah- and I do think the most important thing here is: where does he come down on issues the day relic? We know you know in twenty sixteen, he came perfecting dollar minimum wage he's come out for a free college for four years public universities, but you said we ve still got worse than on healthcare whole bunch of other issues. So you know the policy pronouncements he makes in the coming weeks. I think will be very important to what happens in this race last question on this. How much should Democrats worry about two men in their late seventies, Joe by.
in Bernie Sanders potentially battling it out for the nomination, since they are the. You know, number one number two candidates in pulling right now I worry about it. I worried I worried two ways. I worry about
two: seventy year old white men better. If the democratic nomination and
That's me: the choice of the voters, not the activists
and I worry about how.
Young people and people of color and other people
this country who are most affected by the policies the government makes feels about.
A general action between two white men in their seventies battling about you know I think of that
Do you know, I think one of the challenges we haven't you thousand in
Sixteen was despite Hilary Clinton's history, making role as the first female nominee of a major
pretty because of all of the baggage they came from year.
Of investigations, and caricature is an unfair coverage of Hillary Clinton for life.
people that elections are removed from people's lives right, didn't feel it felt like the pass in the future
a twenty twenty general action that feels more like the past that the future is sport of now.
De Bernie Sanders his credit in this. He has a demonstrated record of exciting young people, young and maybe heat
his age has not been relevant, does not been something that has been prohibited from exciting young people, and so, if he were the nominee than in others it a chance, he could replicate that on
national scale? This goes to the you know. Our friend even Axelrod always says that voters look for the remedy, not the replica and
So when you look at the democratic feel, you have lots of them one by one by what acts means by that. Is that you
We want the opposite. If they're gonna, unseat president or replace a mean a term limited in common presently, usually want the opposite,
thoughtful Obama was the opposite of impetuous.
yes, but you got us in Iraq Trump with the opposite of Obama
Who is the candidate who is the most opposite of Trump in this race and eat out,
some people of our Euro think actually even saw Axelrod quote used to describe this. As you know,
that's part of the appeal of Mayor PETE. That's part of the appeal of animals with war in our common interest. It feels very different. It feels more likely future than the past and that it gets us
as we try to figure out what the FUCK Elect ability means, the future
for you know who represents,
exciting future for America is an interesting question and you know as to what is who is best to be Trump part of the problem with the remedy replica sang with regard to tromp is Trump has so many uniquely awful qualities like he is one of our worst people love. It always says that
is a ton of people who are the opposite of draft. You know it is not clear in this field, who is the most opposite of Donald Trump right like there
number of, can the can lay claim to being opposite of trumps, so sort of a tougher thing to figure out my my thoughts on the age factor here, partly because, as you said, Bernie Sanders has dominated with younger voters did in twenty sixteen, and so far in pole,
Is today it's hard to say that for a lot of his younger voters, who are supporting Bernie that he does, he know he represents the past or something like that, because that they don't. They don't believe that
actually, I'm thinking more like what it means to serve as president in your late seven.
Is because I do know that in two thousand eight there was a very big issue made of John Mccain's age, partly by US part.
By the media and he was in his early seventies, and I think the job of president is very difficult in it. In his turn,
I at whereas you down and its tiring and imagining tomb,
in their late seventies.
Serving in that role, you know it's. It's tough and perhaps they're both up for it and they both very energetic- and you can see me Bernie
running. All around the country and Joe Biden ran all around the country and twenty eighteen, so do you know perhaps they're fine, but it does it
Why are you the people in there? You know it's, it's a very, very difficult job being precedent,
These are both Bernie and by an would be the oldest president's. By far it's a very fair point. So that's one thing, but you know they could surprise us and just be his energetic as the young folks. So ok, when we come back, we will have
dance interview with mother Joneses Arbour plots
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Download catch up before that we are now pleased to be joined by ARI Berman are, is a senior reporter at Mother Jones covering Voting rights who's? The author of give us the ballot, the modern struggle for voting rights in America.
thanks for joining us Hayden? Thank you for having me I wanted.
with some basic table set. You have been as much as anywhere
covering the question.
tromp administration, adding a question about citizenship,
to the census? Key
explain how that question came to be and why it is so unusual or you're right. Then,
on the face of it it seems like a really basic question. It's a nine word question. That basically asks. Are you
a citizen of the United States and I think, for a lot of people that doesn't seem like a big deal, but the transmission
and added this question in March of twenty eighteen and the
problem is that the census post account everyone in America, not just
every citizen, not as everyone whose here legally everyone who is he
or whether they are legal or not. It is a just
perfect enumeration of the population, which is what the founders intended and the problem with this question about you, a citizenship is that immigrant can
it is particularly non citizens, particularly Latinos, are going to be very uncomfortable,
giving the Trump administration their citizenship information, giving every.
thing that we seen with the Trump administrations
gratian policies in the incredible climate of fear that now exists in this country, and so, if immigrant communities, if Latinos
do not respond to the senses. What's gonna happen is that the areas where they live places like caliphs
where you live places like New York. Where I live, we are going to have,
less economic resources devoted to us we're going to have less political representation. We are going to have few.
How seats we are going to have fewer elect
college votes, because the big picture here said the sense.
does so much important stuff in our country
censuses. How we allocate eight hundred and eighty billion dollars in federal funding its how we draw voting disco
how we decide how many seats states get in there
how electoral college votes they get. So, if the sense
regular senses, manipulated then base
the olive american democracy is rigged as a result, can you
just not to get to basic about it, explain how the census fits into the allocation of political power.
America so are listeners, understand the stakes here. The set
This is really the basis for american political power.
It is the survey that then determines how political powers allocated so every ten years we do a census.
The entire country to count every person who is here.
and once we figure that out, then we decide ok, this state gained x number of people, so they should get x number of how seats. This is how their state legit,
of map should look. This is the number of votes they get in. The electoral college,
If we have a sense that doesn't count immigrants in large numbers than states with a lot of immigrants, places like New York
in California, and some republican states like Texas, that are fast growing to have a lot of immigrants. They are going to have less political power than places that
wider more rural and have fewer immigrants. So that's why they sense is such a big deal. It really is the baseline for how we allocate political power in America, and, just me,
the risk of civic. That means fewer. How seats in fewer electoral votes in places that General ACT, Democrats, correct, yes of by law,
I mean that there are some place with a lot of immigrants like Texas that are controlled by republicans
They are trending democratically, but what's happy.
Here is that the country is becoming more democratic, more urban and
more progressive and the census if we have an accurate census done in twenty twenty, it's going to show
the country, is more diverse than
after that we are heading towards a minority majority future
meaning that white people are going closer and closer
to becoming the minority in this country for the trouble
Nutrition is trying to do in the census is to halt the impact of that demographic change. So, instead of resources being allocated to more
verse more progressive, more urban places. Instead resource will be redistributed to more Earl, more conservative, wider places for the next decade. If the sentence is rigged, we
won't be able to get any do overs. It's not like. We do another census in twenty twenty one or two thousand and twenty two. We do it in April of twenty twenty and that's it and we have to live with the consequences for the next
and so this issue has working its way through the courts. It was in Supreme there's a hearings report this week. I believe you were there away
That is what it. What is the legal arguments been about, and what are the prospects for the court's stopping this issue? I,
was there in the Supreme Court and the
to remember is that three different federal courts have already struck down this question that has been
lawsuits filed against it by New
in seventeen other states by California and
by Maryland and some other places, and so this is already gone through. Pretty extensive litigation, lower courts and the federal courts in all three cases have been worse.
differing in their assessment of why
Commerce, Secretary Wilberfloss added this question and basically caught him a liar without exactly say,
so because Wilbur Ass, the calmer secretary, who oversees the Census Bureau, he added
question about citizenship in March of twenty eighteen and claimed it was needed for quote better enforcement,
the Voting Rights ACT and this
Historically, laughable argument
is the Trump Administration hasn't filed a single lawsuit to enforce the Voting rights ACT. They have been actively hostile to voting rights and just about every area. The sentence hasn't asked about US citizenship, since one thousand nine hundred and fifty and, of course, the vote.
Its act was passed in nineteen sixty five, so we hadn't needed a citizenship question on this
is to enforce the voting rights ACT for more than fifty years, and basically, what the federal court said was that this was pre textual that ROS added this question.
For other reasons, and the other reasons included are trying to diminish political power for errors and lots of emigrants.
Possibly trying to draw districts to exclude immigrants from counting altogether that right,
ass when he made this decision consult with people like Steve, Bannon people like Chris call the former secretary of state
Kansas, who are among the most anti immigrant people in the country, the architect of administrations, white native astray,
So this has nothing to do with the Voting Rights ACT, but the interesting
thing Ghana's when this came before the Supreme Court that concern,
Court of justice's seem to buy this argument that John Roberts, in particular, say
Well, don't we need this question to enforce the Voting rights ACT? What's wrong with that, and this was
credibly ironic, because it was Roberts, of course, who wrote the majority opinion in twenty thirteen gutting the voting rights out so the same people they had.
got it the Voting Rights ACT on
turn around and say we need this question to enforce the Voting Rights ACT, which is just a complete farce. If you look at it,
and with say, do the doomsday snare, construing Supreme Court rules in the transmission favour. Is there like? There is no real,
course we're just fucked for a decade is at something into pressing question, but Peter
wondering I mean, I think I think people are going to try to figure out what the recourse is. I think that people are going to try to convince. You
the still respond to the senses to make sure that the the citizenship information, if its given is confidential, so that immigrants are afraid of
answering this question that people may respond to the senses but actually skip this question, and I think it it's very possible that if we can
bad count that if it's it's obvious in some way or another, that immigrants were not counted in large numbers. I could then
see groups challenging the validity of the senses itself. I now
your whole nother battleground. But of course, that would have to apple happen after April. Twenty twenty
I'm really concerned about is even without
citizenship question. The senses is going to take place in April of twenty right in the middle of the presidential car
pain. And can you imagine the impact if Donald Trump tweets that day the senses begins?
You know we are making the census great again, I mean that that would have probably a catastrophic impact on people respond
to the Sensus, and so this
issue really needs to become deep criticized this at the end of the day, is a survey it's a survey of her
we are as a country and the more
politicized. It becomes the less likely people are going to respond to it, who
is running the senses within the trumpet ministrations that someone who give you confidence. While that's
Another problem is that, for a long time we didn't have a leader of the Census bureau. There is an acting leader of veal,
The long time, leader of the Senses bureau who started under Obama, was a guy
was very well respected a he stepped down for about a year. There was no leader. Now there is a new guy by the name of a Stephen Billingham. Who is fine, I don't think he's he's a career bureaucratic would have any problems with him, but
feeling is that Wilbur Ross is running the show and that he's running the show with people like Chris Callback whispering in his ear saying we need to do
people like Stephen Miller, most likely whispering in his ear and saying we need to do everything to try to make it so that white political power is protected in the senses.
and that immigrants and the areas where they live have less cloud. Then they should have, and that this is our grand strategy to try to halt the impact of demographic
change to make sure that even after Trump leaves office that white political power is protected and republican political power is protected. The next DEC
It's a really, I think it's Wilbur Ross and then the anti immigration hardliners inside and outside administration that are run
the shell and that's what makes me so nervous
do you know of any
profits or other groups out there who intend to work with the immigrant community or others to try to maximize census response on
of groups are working on this and in fact, that there is a big coalition of philanthropic nonprofit groups working to get out of the count, whether its groups, like Malta, working on the latter
Many are groups like Asian Americans, advancing justice working in the asian american Community near the end doubly cp working in an african american community groups like the Fort
foundation? Are funding this? There is a big coalition to try to get the cow.
But it's going to be very difficult if this citizenship question is on the senses, I was in the central Valley of California Dan, where there are a lot of latino immigrants, a lot of undocumented immigrants, reporting on the story about the census in the spring of twenty eighteen and add, I met a lot of undocumented immigrants and I asked them: would you
spawned to the census. If it had a question about, U S, citizenship, and they all told me no
There wasn't a single person that I knew that was undocumented said they were to respond to that question and it can
a very, very difficult to convince people that are incredibly afraid of the translations. Immigration policies that feel like they could be deported any minute
to then turn around and say you should trust the Trump administration. With your confidential information, that is going to be a very, very different, difficult argument, no matter how many resources are devoted to
to be able to make. You know you, you know you ve, you ve talked about the sense.
question in the car.
Text of a larger republican strategy about curtailing the political power of a growing progressive, diversify
majority in this country law
what else around the country? Are you seeing that gives you great concern about the fate of our democracies in the fate of people's right to vote
while the rigging of the senses has to be seen as part of a broader strategy to try to dampen the voices of increasingly diverse, increasingly non white, emerging, mature
and so you can put the census alongside things like the extreme gerrymandering we ve seen over the past decade in places like Wisconsin and North Carolina, to try to entrench white Republicans in power for the past decade, which has been remarkable
if you can put it alongside efforts to make it harder to vote which had a big impact in a twenty. Sixteen election in places like was content, are having a big impact. Now Republicans have not taken their foot off the gas, but when it comes to disenfranchises, voters were seeing efforts right now in Florida, in Texas, in other, really important state
to try to make it harder for people of color to be able to vote, and so, if you just how this question about citizenship- and nothing else was going on, it might be possible to justify it.
you look at it as part of the attack on voting rights as part of the extreme gerrymandering as part of the attack to undercut the power of democratic election officials which were seeing across the
both button, Lamed accessions, and now it is part of a broader hall where basically Republicans are becoming
the minority in this country, but they're trying to hold on to power as long as possible, and they are manipulating the institutions of democracy to be able to carry out that grey.
plan. We don't. We always talk here, impulsive America, about the the
best and perhaps only solution to these,
It's beyond putting our faith in an increasingly conservative court is electing Democrats at the state, local level. No,
Eighteen was a very good luck for Democrats, not just and taken out spite governorship
state legislatures, have you seen anything from the newly elected democratic leadership of somebody states that suggest that we are going on offence, odd, voting rights, absolutely
Twenty eighteen was a really key hinge moment in which Democrats and I think, the public more broadly, when on office on voting rights, you had eight state
That past bow the initiatives to make it easier to vote, to put in place policy
like automatic registration alike?
auctioneer registration to draw
tricks in a non partisan way. There
pass not only in liberal places, but in conservative states like Utah Missouri. They did. This is well now. We have to be
very vigilant about people trying to roll back these initiatives which they're doing in a bunch of places, but the fact that these initiatives
so overwhelmingly was really important, and then one Democrats have got majorities in places like Washington, State
For example, they ve been very aggressive and expanding voting rights. What New York, where I live is a great example. We have had some of the worst
voting laws in the country in New York for decades, and then one day
that's got a majority in the state legislature. For the first time,
what felt like a million years. They went off once they did things like early voting like online registration, that
really really really point that a bunch of places have had for decades, but the New York didn't have. So I think
really really important that I want Democrats and progressives get power, the state local level. They do things to expand democracy, which is not only good for their party. But who is good
democracy writ large. My one concern here again, I imagine you share this concern- is that so
attention is going to the presidential race right now, but I think it's in some ways. Eclipsing. The importance of these states
all races- and I hope you will realise that in twenty twenty or not just electing a present, we are letting in particular
governors and state legislators that are going to then draw the redistricting maps for the next decade, and it's really really important. We don't lose sight of that. Are that such a great point and
I guess my last question for you before I let you go is: do you think
at twenty twenty democratic present,
Cancer talking enough about voting rights
in health of our democracy would to see more from them.
Like to see more from them and I'd like to see it be targeted. Simon thing, it's great to have a hypothetical discuss
and about whether prisoners can vote but right now, for example,
Our critical elections in places like Virginia in twenty nineteen, that's going to determine who draws redistricting maps for the next decade. I would like to see the Democrats running for President Camp
pain for down ballot offices. Talk about the importance of voting
the local level and not just have a hypothetical conversation about what we should do. But a practical discussion say: hey, listen if you elect a democratic legislate.
in Virginia in TWAIN, eighteen nineteen they already have a democratic governor. We can then draw redistricting maps that are more fair for the next decade.
That is really really critical, and I think some democrats of talk a little bit about this, but I would like this to be a central issue of the campaign that democracy is on the line, not just in the presidency but demand
He is on the line in the states in twenty twenty and a democratic presidential candidates. Half the highlight that and draw attention to its people. Don't forget.
Thank you so much for joining us and we hope to talk to you again sent thank you so much down
thanks to Berman for joining us today. Everyone have a great weekend, and we will see an next week by everyone
Transcript generated on 2020-10-16.