Trump gets rave reviews for not being senile in a meeting, Bannon goes down in flames, and Oprah makes everyone lose their minds. Dr. Catherine Thorlieffson joins Jon, Jon, and Tommy on stage in Oslo, Norway to talk about the rise of right-wing extremism, and Jan Stromnes of Halden Prison discusses criminal justice reform.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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Before we start. Yes, John, I just want to say that you're welcome meat stock homes. Welcome the
we're not going to hinder the incident like this yeah. I was little you don't know
hello, hello and welcome to POD save America, I'm Jon Favreau, I'm done love it. I found it or we are very happy to be here. We apologize in advance for whatever
crazy. Our president is about to say to your prime minister during their meeting today. We also got your name wrong and yeah so that I believe the White House is already referred. Your country's norm way: it's not a joke. Yeah! That's true, John! It I'm hearing that in a terrible, faux pas
your prime minister, did reach for a drumstick from the bucket of KFC. First, a very and anger him he fired off and, unfortunately, you guys are now out of NATO. That's a shame
We have some outstanding yesterday will be talking to doctor Catherine toilets in about the rise of right wing. Nationalism and xenophobia will also be talking to Jan Stromness, who helps run what time magazine is called the
prison in the world right here in Norway, guys, crooked media has also launched a brand new podcast. Today,
call keep it by IRA Madison the third? It talks about culture and politics, it is hilarious, so please go subscribe and check it out. Subscribe, subscribe check it out. Let's start with President Trump as we
Do here who we like to call the master dealmaker back in America? He is our master dealmaker, so right now
Democrats are trying to pass a law that would offer a pathway to citizenship?
the eight hundred thousand young immigrants, known as dreamers who were brought to America's children and lived in our country, their entire lives. If Congress does not reach a deal soon,
This these young Americans will be deported since Trump illuminated the protections that Obama had granted them. So Democrats,
Wanna vote in Congress on a clean bill that will offer citizenship to the dreamers, which is what Trump and the Republicans originally promised to do back in the fall trump and the Republicans are saying they will only help the dreamers if they get funding for Trump's stupid wall
and also steps to reduce legal immigration in America. Hey John, what's a clean bill is that something that's well defined in Washington right so
clean bill is basically just they just they just want to vote. They want one
on this. One piece of legislation got it with nothing else attached it and everyone help. Everyone knows this in Washington. Of course, when you say a clean bill on an issue, it means we just want
on that one issue, and you know dirty it up with other issues right, that's what it always meets. One hundred percent of the time
This is all by way of saying to this brings us to yesterday at the White House, where Donald Trump held a live, televised. Fifty five minute meeting with Democrats and Republicans
negotiated deal. The idea here was to show the world. The trump is a very
and and not a dodgy old racist is in decline. Now, before we talk about this, we actually have a bit of a clip cool, but the meeting-
Now first, we call ok, stop here's how it works. We roll a clip. We want to stop it. We say: ok, stop! When we talk about it this week on. Ok, stop! We have footage from this meeting. This was a meeting to do two things. One demonstrate that the
and it could speak in coherent sentence and know that he knew peoples names. But then that was undercut by the fact that you'll see those name tags, but it's ok that he was.
Gripped by some combination of senility and mental disorder, which is where we're at so this is supposed to be the Proofpoint
for them, and then the second piece was the debate about how to handle Daca and how Republicans and Democrats would come together on a deal which brings us to this clip
and Senator Dianne Feinstein of California, who is a Democrat to find anything in here. My son has what about a clean doctor bill now and with the commitment that we go into a comprehensive immigration reform procedure like we did back
I remember when Kennedy was here. I have no problem, I think that's. Basically what tickets and we're gonna come out with Doc and doc, and
we can start immediately on the phase two, which would be comprehensively
yeah. I would like. I would like to. I think a lot of people would like to see
but I think we have
what you're seeing is
Publican member of Congress Realized-
in that Center Diane Feinstein just said: let's do the Democrat version and Donald Trump said. Yes,
and you could start start hearing those gasps around the table- are the republican lawmakers thinking he just fun.
Us again and all the Democrats are like. Should everyone be quiet if it look at the Denny's lawyer and Dick Durbin write their two Democrats, their faces at like six service like got a hawk. This is like like, like they just sold Donald Trump, a car or three times the price they
I it was worth and they just can't believe it.
Is surprising. You need to be clear, though I think I think, with Center Feinstein
ok stop and we talk. So that's a really perfect moment. I think we need to be clear here.
But what he's really saying is, I think you need to say the opposite of what you just said and then, when he said Mccarthy he's a Republican from California he's a he's. A leadership in the house he's also very stupid him, so
he's the one who undercut the entire investigation against Hillary Clinton's emails by being like look at what it did to her poll numbers,
that's. The only reason we get one side of the investigation was undercut. It was smooth sailing for her
We don't want to be back here. Two years later you have to have security,
as a secretary would tell you know. I think that's what you say. Okay, if not that is not what she said. I would not use anything. That's what you think. She said that she said the all again, the of the opposite yeah. I think it please doctor bill to me is a doctor bill. What we take care of the eight hundred thousand people, their acts
they're, not necessarily young people. Everyone talks about young. You know they could be forty years old, forty one
he's lost the thread that's by the way that is
hey there. Young it's uh
his way of saying yeah they came
his children, but they kept getting old.
These immigrants at these immigrants having birthdays. There's there's also no more perfect Washington moment than five seven year old White, guys telling a woman in the room. What she just said, ha ha ha ha ha, but I think to me it please
bill is a bill of Doctor
take care of that, and we also take care of security. Ok, you just made it not a clean bill,
many hailed this. Would he a meeting as
you see he has
vocabulary of a few hundred words he.
He is aware of the issue. No, not at some subtler points
one media organization said that this meeting showed that Donald Trump was the post, partisan leader
bigger than republican or Democrat who'd overwhelm Washington through the sheer strength of stagecraft.
And deal cutting genius. This was that moment. I want you guys to know that was actually obviously obviously
what you saw in that clip with the promise of the Trump presidency? That's the best he can do
and it was I we've CNN like media organ
echo Media organization after media organization. They all looked at me and they're like well. This is Michael Wolff Book said that he's crazy, but he wasn't
In that meeting he was visiting friends the
relation that everyone around him, including his own children, think he's an idiot, doesn't mean he can't sit quietly for most of the fifty.
In a meeting 'cause. That's what he did then. I would say like thank God for the Washington post. He got it right and
throat and their lead in this meeting? Trump showed stability not necessary.
Really capability. So thank you for that so hard. Everyone else know now that there are also a few, a conservatives on the twitter machine. That said,
something on the lines of you can imagine? Barack Obama
never had a meeting like this and then not several people pointed out that he actually did a multi our health care round table with Republicans and Democrats, were you not only did this. He actually was aware of
facet of the policy being debated and one of my one hack, who is a someone who's like try to become Trump's press secretary on several occasions
Mark Costco IBS and never got the job, yes that I wasn't offered to it and I didn't agree to it was a hold on which one was it, but I
but uh? He said something like yeah
Obama had this meeting, but it was not to prove he was mentally stable.
The mail anything he judged. That is the way it is with the win. For the I mean to me,
What this clip basically confirmed, the central thesis of Michael Wolff's book, which is the Trump, has no fucking idea. What he's doing like
I can focus on the mental stability set for not but the inside in that book
Is that, like the guy, has no grasp of any policy right? Nor has he tried to learn them
but there's a classic film in the United States, which is a legendary film called weekend.
These two young men. They got that here you see that here too handsome young men there's boats involved. They drag around a corpse.
Make it move and
achieve that in that video weekend at Bernie's an entire weekend. This was an hour, but you know great success, so
it is one eight one sears point about this, which is I I think, ultimately, the debate around whether or not you see mentally stable, as it were, showing the signs of sin,
I think that the reality is whether or not that's true, and I may be very well true and it's frightening.
There's actually not that much of a difference between someone who's spent a lifetime, rejecting curiosity, rejecting learning and and following a pattern of thought that says he knows everything it doesn't. You know another thing and someone
who doesn't have the mental capacity anymore to retain new information because they're in mental decline Don
trump, whether or not it's his brain or whether on his own habits,
He does not have the capacity to do the job and he never did he didn't have it in twenty fifteen did two thousand and ten he's never had it so end of thought
for so one more funny point on this after the meeting
The White House released. The official transcript of the entire meeting in one phrase, was somehow left out of that transcript, which was Donald Trump's answer to Dianne Feinstein. When she asked, would you like to do a clean, Daca bill?
he said yeah. I would like to do it somehow that didn't appear in the transcript. It's uh
transcript released said what should
an immigration crosstalk crosstalk
build a wall. So the question now guys
What are democrats have to do to get this deal done because it does seem like negotiating with
deal master over here. It doesn't really get you anywhere, because Trump's telling
people what they want to hear. Sometimes he's telling people
Republicans in the same room. What they want to hear in two different sentence is right and is a very
question of how engaged will he really be
what he's told that room essentially is? If you guys can cut a deal and get something done? I won't get in the way, but he still has Rasputin Santa Monica Fascist Steven Miller.
Fresh off his Sunday show appearances embarrassing himself in front of the entire country?
doing his best to undercut the process so yeah
We brought that up Bloomberg. I think reported that Republicans in Congress, who
on this deal. Democrats, but the Republicans and the Democrats are saying that every time they come close to negotiating a deal on this Steven Miller at the White House keeps it up by inserting the poison pills into the deal that he knows. Democrats would never go for what are his preferred poison pills these and so yeah. It's just it's. Basically, all these measures to like drastically cut back on
legal immigration and right before we came on stage, the White House released a statement that said you know there will be no deal for the dreamers and less there is. You know the end of the visa lottery system, the end of chain migration and full funding for the border walls. Yeah, I mean this is so hard to figure out now what what happens now right I mean. Even that is a chain.
Position, I mean those are positions. Donald Trump is taken, but he says, on the one hand, all support whatever deal. You guys come too and then the bad cop, his immigration hardliners, say here's. What a deal has to require an ultimately it seems clear that Trump would sign whatever came across his desk. So when the White House says, when the White House puts out a statement that there can't be, we won't support a deal unless it has xy or Z. The only reason that's true is, if Republicans in Congress say it's true right.
And it's ultimately a bluff. But the question is the White House demanding it isn't what matters? What matters is whether or not Republicans in Congress decide they can use that to get it in there and then lay it at the feet of the
yeah I get a normal truly bipartisan deal here would be. You know. Democrats want to clean vote to offer citizenship to the dreamers and Republicans get some addition
border security funding. They don't get the wall, they don't get. You know all the cuts, illegal immigration,
but they get a little more security funding. That's what in Republicans
Democrats both know that that would be the bipartisan deal and what Miller keeps doing it every time they get close to that. He throws in these extreme measures that he knows a guy going to are going to screw up the deal. So that's we're gonna so that the option for the Democrats is.
To say, okay? Well, we have to fund the government by January nineteenth, you need our votes and unless you actually put the dream act on the floor for a vote, then you will not get our votes to fund the government. That's going to deport eight hundred thousand young Americans right now in the compromise could end up being that there's some to do,
no money for border security. Tucked into that Trump can claim a win and say here's. My wall will say: no, it's not you're full of shit.
Move on. We do in Washington yeah, that's where an I'm sure there's a lot. I'm sure there's, probably some people in the way
and many Republicans who want him to get to that point because they don't want us to know what no one wants to keep fighting on this issue. Yeah, I mean look, this is this is not a new debate. You know Trump brings his chaos and villains to the table, but ultimately, we've been having the same debate about immigration for the better part of two decades, and this is this is the contour of the contours of the bay. When George W Bush's presumed conference immigration forms the copies of the country's debate broke, a bomb was split, produce proper, suing, immigration reform. So, ultimately, if there is going to be a compromise, it will be.
Uh some balance between legalization and security and Democrats should continue to draw their line on that they show their line on on Docker.
The line on children's health insurance and a few other key priorities, and the only thing standing between us and a deal is our public Republicans actually want one
so an what everyone listening at home can do is to make sure you call your senators or democratic senators and make sure that they do not vote.
On any long term, deal to fund the government that would also fund the deportation of these Americans and take away health insurance by the way from nine million kids 'cause? They don't extend the children's health insurance program, which is also part of negotiations,
so make sure call your democratic senators and make sure that they stand with the dreamers and not with
Professor Steven Miller, I'm pk your best with speaking of useless facts. Yes, the way in and stepped out onto the executive chairman of bright part, it's just a great failure that we even know his name and as tough couple months for Steve
fired from the White House loses ascent.
Election in Alabama disavowed by Donald Trump and now fired from Breit Bart and ladies
We hear that one of the reason
he was finally forced out. Is the mercers? Did it the
there's a family who funds Breit Bart there, a bunch of right wing lunatics. They find a lot of the Trump campaign, they find all kinds of horrible things, and I guess if they were sick of Steve's
what does this mean for bright Bart now, Breitbart good, now
no right. By going to turn itself around is not good. I mean, like Steve, Bannon, made the cardinal sin of thinking. He was more important than the office of the presidency or that he was an indispensable staffer and Washing
three cycles happen: people people in the Obama White House, the Bush White House. No one is indispensable. That place will open its doors,
Next day, whether you're there or not- and you have to be- you have to be self aware about that when you go in and
Steve Bannon was an opportunist who
was well funded by his little pet billionaires and he monetize fascism in races.
And was in the right place at the right time and used it to manipulate the US political system, and it is fantastic to see him fall on his face
but I wish it was not because he told the truth about Don Junior being a moron and J.
Because you're being fucking moron, and that was you know that he was excise from Washington, because
He was racist.
Nationalists, you know,
the peddler of grievance politics that is done enormous damage the country's. So unlike the outcome is great, but you know that that is not. The victory doesn't feel as good as
Probably should a quick shout out: there's a company there's the there's, a group of folks who are anonymous run it's what, if you called sleeping giants and what they
done is one by one by one.
Everyone know that if your have programmatic,
tising that you're advertising on Breitbart, so check them out there on twitter they've got three thousand five hundred someone advertisers to drop Breit Bart, another site supporting hate
self support them yeah. Well, also, I'm glad you brought that up so Bloomberg reported that the advertising boycott against Breitbart by sleeping giant has had such an impact that the Mercer family is bright, basically by parts only source of funding. Now, because all these advertisers have pulled out, and so one of the reasons they finally pushed bandit out is because the Mercers were sick of picking
the bill for Breitbart all by themselves, because all of these advertisers pulled out so the sleeping giants campaign that they launched a couple months. The started lunch in the early last year. It's really works yet these tickets by five,
foot yachts, but yeah they're upset about picking up the break. Whatever I'm happy
not not really not letting that win in
yeah, I got a question here. Tommy. Would you like to spike the football you and then I didn't want to your men that is tonight Tommy yeah give it to rage circumspect. I mean the question is sort of what becomes of
Bannon is you know Trumpism Breit, Breitbart ISM, like you know, who carries the flag for this shity politics, it's a brand of politics. Right now we saw yesterday that
Joe are Arpaio pardoned by Trump? Despite torturing inmates is now running for Senate in
zona I like to do. We think that there's going to be more candidates like that, like him, you think they're just you know what can happen. I think. Yes, I think that Steve Bannon was an opportunity and he did. He certainly can invents the effectiveness of racial grievance and american pop
Tex, he did figure out ways to weaponize it in innovative ways and and ways to monetize. The right parts are, but I think you Virginia, I mean it gives you a picture. Hopefully in the future, you look at the the racial grievance Paul.
That Ed Gillespie adopted to try to win it wasn't really a natural fit for him, and it's actually
not true to say that it was totally ineffective. It was very, very affective amongst the people it was targeted at, but it cost him more than it helped him. It turned off a lot of people. It turned off the people that are the growing populations of America turned off suburban Republicans,
I it turned off the people, the Democrats and need to win, and that I you know I would even call the model Republicans, but Republicans that are nationalists need to win. So you will see people like Roy Moore, be able to harness that kind of aging population of voters to win primaries. It also makes it harder for them to win the general you'll, see people like our pile, be threatening to the Republican Party, but I think it's gonna become increasingly difficult for them to win outside of those primaries. In anything, that's not a black
Red state like a you know, even out Alabama could have gone to write more had he not have those allegations beyond that. I'm not really sure, except that it's a potent force for a lot of people, and it has dragged our politics to really not.
Place and shipped to the Republican Party, the right and that you know you guys here. You have multiple parties into these things, sort themselves out differently. Inside of a republican party. We have this nationalist front yeah, this more conservative christian element. We have this corporate republicanism and what we have seen is just how easily it was for the nationalist wing of the party to
you co, ops, people like Paul Ryan, or vice versa, for Paul Ryan to co, op that front towards his end. So that continues to be something we have to take very seriously yeah. I think these guys are in bold and they'll continue to run. Breit Bart was impotent platform for them. If you look at the sort of web traffic history from the twenty sixteen election, a lot of bright Bart stories,
around a lot, so they will continue to find platforms. The daily caller Infowars, the Scaramucci Post,
you know the greatest hits
recalls taken off. Like light, you know, Sean Hannity is a terrible hack right he's on Fox news every night he just repeats whatever Donald Trump wants to give him. The questions in advance target Carlson is quietly doing something even more insidious. He is doing kind of bright Bart on television every night and showing
an audience yeah. I do. I worry bout media figures like Tucker and politicians like Tucker, who sort of try to sand some of the edges off of this, because they were a little bit smarter and yet still the same exact insidious. Politics I mean. What do you mean? It's still the same message. Look one hundred thousand votes go a different way. We have spent the last year.
About how this kind of racial grievance nationalist politics flames yeah. But that's not what happens we do you. What do you think we look? Donald Trump is gonna continue to use this I mean are
we too sanguine even now about this? I don't think
I think, we're pretty.
About it, I'm worried about it. I think that in Donald Trump we would have an even more dangerous president if he was smarter and if he had people
like Steve, Bannon around him who weren't as Showboat Y and as Steve Bannon is and sloppy
Steve Bannon was, and if you have a few smarter minds,
view and you have a leader who is a little bit smarter, like I think, someone like a Tom cotton Center from Arkansas says a lot of the same things and believe a lot of the same things as you see on bright part and that and that Donald Trump believes and I think, there's a real danger. If you start running politicians and some of these races, who are you know,
pardon criminals like your pie or child molesters like one more, but who really believe this stuff, not pretend to believe it like in a glassed in Virginia. You know you there's an potency that yeah immigration is a is a potent issue. That's why the Republicans are doing this Dhaka conversation with such trepidation. I think Democrats who look at data and look at opinion polls and I've seen that change over time are fearful of what this debate could mean terms of exacerbating Xena phobia and and challenges for the party. So I think it's all a piece of one puzzle and we should be were
working on it. Stay vigilant. Okay, I want move on to a topic that cannot be avoided any longer now, all of
I know that here at crooked media,
we will be laser focused on the twenty eighteen elections for this entire year and you should be too but because you've all been so well behaved. We will go ahead and spend just a few minutes. Indulging
global hysteria that is known as Oprah. Two thousand and twenty don't applaud that love it. When are you
to run your campaign, the second somebody their replies to an email,
so it's just obviously background all of this started at the golden globe. Awards went over delivered. What I think was one of the more powerful hopeful speeches that I've heard in years. Certainly one of the most powerful hopeful speeches about the me too movement and its place in american history. This, of course, raises questions about whether she would run for
president, because you can't just leave a good speech alone- have go there and at if you give a good speech. What do you get any president and it you know in fairness? The reason that the media took off of this is when
Oprah and many of her close friends. You know we're
it's about whether she'd run for the very first time. They did not offer a blanket denial and refusal the first time they said. Okay, she was actually thinking about it. So what do you guys think
with a paraphrase our president they're stupid, takes on both sides. I think the people that watch one speech in are willing to sort of jump on board and say she's.
Savior. Your that's a little bit silly. I think, there's another school.
Where is Oprah and drone strikes? Okay, we can
but there too there's a whole process for this uhm, you think,
cool and compelling about Oprah is her
story and her humanity in her empathy that came through in that speech and that we are so fucking.
Really lacking in our government in our politics right now, because of this monster, who just thinks about everything in terms of himself so to
to see someone that successful that self made that empathetic and that human, despite living on this other plane for the last. However, many years is pretty cool, so run. If you want to run Oprah yeah, I think we have a facile debate about experience. You know, political experience is very important and if she were to run that would be a question should have to answer right. You don't haven't been in politics, it's different than running a company. What are your policy platforms? Why haven't you been involved before, etc, etc? Those are questions she would have to answer, but she has the business experience. Trump claimed to never had she's. The self made person that Donald Trump claimed to be in never was, and she lacks many of the traits that make him so dangerous. Obviously, so, in a lot of ways,
She represents the promise of a person from the corporate world as President that Donald Trump pretended to have all along. I have no idea if she'll run, I have no idea, it should be a good candidate if she'd be a good president. It certainly gives me pause that she has no government experience, but it also really bothers me when people say oh, this is like the liberal version of Trump. This is a liberal fever game. If you ask me to list a dozen reasons why Donald Trump is a bad press
being a celebrity with no experience will be at the fucking bottom. Ok yeah. If, if Donald Trump is Donald Trump had served in the United States Senate for fifty years, he would still be a racist. He would still be a sex
He would still be a liar, and he still wouldn't know shit about anything, but he's talking about.
Just like in it, and she is she's. Not just a celebrity talk show. That's it's almost offensive to just like dismissed her as a celebrity talk show host. This is a woman who climbed out of poverty escape sexual abuse, became a journalist, a successful journalist and then became the most successful
african American business woman in the world- that is that's a big qualification and it's like anything is this is what campaigns are for its to test this out? If her lack of experience bothers, you don't support her, you know if you don't agree with her on all her policy positions when she finally tells us or policy positions, then
don't support her if she's done something in her career that you don't like. Don't support her this at great doctor,
pause, doctor, Phil, Anti vaccination, Suzanne Somers she's got some shit to answer for two good Oprah Hagiya, hey Geography, no, she just like every other candidate. She will have to answer all those questions and she better have good fuckin' answers if she wants to win, but like that's what the purpose of the campaign is an
like underlying all of this worry, is this idea that
for some reason. We allow this candidacy to happen.
Then we will all be brainwashed by the celebrity of Oprah and we'll all just follow her anywhere, which doesn't say a lot of. It basically says that the Democrats are going to act just like Republicans it with Donald Trump yeah,
I think I think that we're all still dealing with the emotional fallout of our worst person becoming president
an it scrambled, our brains a little bit, and so I think we get we're all worried that you know we're going to focus on two thousand and eighteen, but when we think about twenty,
We will know that we will be heading into the most consequential presidential election.
Maybe in a in american History- and we know the Democrats won't have one shot to get it right and they will be reasons to not be for anyone who gets in the ring and it's a really important decision, because Donald Trump One, I think, there's this fear that we could go down the same dark path. But so I think that there's a question to ask is pretty easy: would nominating someone like Oprah, be a good idea if Donald Trump and never come along
and my view is the answer. Maybe yes it be no, but neither one is obvious: it's not obvious whether it's a
idea or bad idea. It me not just
for things but like? Are we going to do this? Hi? We have.
Started off on the right foot in debating two thousand and twenty candidates so far, because you know it's
we've got, let them all campaign go hear them speak, learn their policy positions and then decide for yourself whether you like the person or the great sin of the twenty. Sixteen election coverage was when you looked at, like the network news broadcast that policy issues got like three minutes versus thirty,
hours on electability or polling right. You know, and this little mini fever about Oprah is just sort of the latest turn in that crank. So
feel like lessons not learned in and yeah and and just I think there is a legitimate fear that celebrity swamps substance, but in the celebrity shouldn't
once once that I'm not going to want to take that as well, but everyone acts like a it's again this this problem that that's flows from the media which treats us like not like voters but as pundits
chosen treat us as people making a decision about who were for but gives
The information about who other people are thinking about picking and so before anyone is said to themselves who do I, like they say themselves
other people liking. Are they right or wrong about that? Who should I like who can win and people? We can take time to say to ourselves. Who is the candidate that I think, would be the best president and
If it's Oprah, we have a ton of great candidates over may not even run it's so far away, but people, I think, are so spooked by how the election unfold in twenty sixteen that they are ready to.
It's yeah and I'll just say it. One last thing that we have been saying on pod: save America since long before the Oprah Buzz,
the next democratic nominee, whoever she or he may be in fact, hopefully all the Democrats that run in twenty eighteen, they should be able to give a speech like
yeah. You know who I don't. Discount information and and people should Democrats should stop talking in talking points that sound like they're recycle.
From the Dnc Daily talking point email in nineteen. Ninety five like fucking, try to inspire
try to move people, try to persuade people, try to tell stories like that, and one
and that she's getting all this attention is because she gave a speech like that, and we haven't heard a lot of Democrats. Give speeches like that for a very long time. I think that's true, and I think that great tests for anyone who is not Oprah
and, let's many of them, everyone would be. Some of you in this crowdsourcing to help is to is to be able to weave together a story that that is inspiring, but that also gets into the kind of policies we need to kind of changes we need as a country, because, ultimately that, if we are worried about being a celebrity culture, we need
I think we need to have people out there who are going to succeed in that celebrity culture by making a compelling argument, not just about inspiration about policy and economic changes in an economic argument that is powerful in
to overwhelm a system,
designed to make us not talk about issues and that's really really hard, but that's
that's going to be the person we need, whether it's to defeat Oprah or Defeat Donald Trump. It's weird to say it that way.
Alright, that's enough of that! Then no, but I think I think, we're I think yeah. I think we got it out of my think. We're good! Ok! When we come back we'll be talking to doctor Catherine Tour, listen
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we are very lucky to have is our first guest. She was a researcher from the center for research on extremism at the University of Oslo Doctor Catherine Tour. Listen
Thank you so much. Thank you so much for being here
on a very light fun topic, which is far right: a nativist extremism across your
What are the general conditions that breed this kind of extremism,
Are there similarities in the places you've studied that we can sort of see as warning sign.
Well. One of the main drivers is obviously resources towards immigration and there's a big debates in the research circles about whether it's economic drivers of culture drivers- and I think it is S two simple that cost me, because it's actually both so
the places I worked? For instance in the post industrial heartlands of hungry in England, you have people who experienced
the long term, existentially insecurity and a lack of jobs over time,
and they blame migrants and scapegoat migrants for various societal ails. Would you say that resistance?
Immigration is greater in places.
Where there is economic dislocation where people are suffering through economic crises. Financial crises is
sort of a direct line you can draw or there's no
need correspondence, because if you look at Switzerland or even Norways so context of wealth and abundance
there's. Even the same processes is nationalization processes, so there's no need correspondence but they're. Definitely if you look at the frame
elections their brexit vote. There definitely are represented in industrial heart.
Ends in the lower educated people.
You see parallels between the rise of the far right in Europe and
of the United States, there are
clear, parallels more over the perceived threats of demographic change. So we are the white people becoming a minority in our own land and with feeling like strangers and so forth. So that's the parallel, whereas,
think in the US. The public debate is more concerned with issues of racism wears a cross
pink context, you will see more culturally
account so issues of culture, religion, civilization, being you know,
in the Associated refugee crisis. Is that a driver of the re emergence of some of these parties? That is sort,
singular at this point in time or as it exacerbated a challenge that was already there
I would say the latter, because it's created a perfect storm for some of these actors who had ownership to the anti immigration message, so they could move that men.
Watching from the margins into the mainstream and say,
So this is what would be constant on and now-
it's happening in look that's the external
displays Syrian who's, threatening our security, our way of life, national identity sovereignty. How much influence do
individual leaders have on the growth of these movements. To the
Here's emerged from the movements or the movements fueled by the leaders. Oh
well, both I've studied you keep and then you see of opportunists charismatic
be there in, like Nigel Farage, who likes to be first himself at Mister Brexit. He played a massive role and he said she
Advice was obviously Breitbart. Editor working custom also played a role in
you pushing or translating those local grievances? So is
Grievances into more politics of fear, so yeah
individual leaders that are very instrumental in the rise, but on the supply
supply side, but on the demand side I would say that there is also
a grievance in search for a leader in many of these places. So when you look at France, Marine Le Pen has taking the
the museum of her father and serve sanded it down and remove the overt anti semitism? And now it's a sort of a new form of basically the same. But I you know, sir different parents. I think we also see that
United States like the KKK they're, not wearing white hoods anymore, when they're in Charlottesville they're, wearing khaki, pants and polo shirts and carrying tiki torches. If they all bought at target 'cause, they thought they thought that would look cool. Do you think that that pr?
in pain and that sort of like sanding down of the edges, helps them sell. The message is that going to make them more effective,
key in process is mainstreaming and recruitment and belonging, because it's
providing a more sexy image is more available and ray bans. Jeans and it's.
Play appealing to invite their audience an
also then researching hungry. Where you see similar tendencies, so
instead of the old fascist symbols. You would kind of rap it up. In a nicer bureaucratic suits appearance, but they're uh,
Cool message remains the same
they supporters in the european, far right parties that have grown over the last
years have been younger. What do you think the specific appeal to young people is to these movements
Will these movements over two things so its economic
protectionism and his culture, protectionism actually a third, even the protection civilization, and I think in a
changing world. So the key
acceleration. There's been exploration last particular three decades. I think for some people
changes are just too much and it's a way of scaling back the process of globalization. So
and, of course it can also just be powerful in terms of identity, creating processes. What's the generational
right here. Do you think I mean because some people say you know, as as of
older people who are more resistant to immigration,
bond and the younger generation which embraces diversity more, especially in our country. We like to think this, then
open, it will go away, but then, in other places you do see sort of the ride
these movements among young people specifically. So how do you? Well, if you look at the brakes,
It was a clear generational, divides the older, older white men to dump me voting as well. But if you look, for instance, again hungry, you see urban, younger people middle class voting as well, so I think that's
something wearing tendency. When you have young
people and their parents might have rain since Holocaust in living memory, but they still try to change his
the official historiography or try to minimize the role of the state, for instance in genocide, there's a prominent Nazis name. I just don't feel like saying- and you
date who was doing a press conference outside and then he got punched in the face, and it started this big debate about whether
views as virulent as Nazism need to be met with, like literal force or if that
flying into their ideology and that this needs to be a broader debate about political views. Even if
completely boring. I guess there are way advocating violence, but I'm curious, like philosophically
there is a way that these extremist parties have been met and their ideas fought against. That has been more effective in some places than others, so that maybe we can follow that path.
I think obviously education is always key. So you need to recognize conspiratorial thinking. You need to recognize me
out migrants in minorities and edge
patients, also key in creating opportunities so globalized better, so that people that feel despairs at feel left behind can actually feel a sense of inclusion, but for
then you know some movements, it's more difficult, but some of them are very hard core believers
it's very different, difficult to exit necessarily once you
embodied and embrace that kind of ideology. When you look at
You know the rise of these movements in different places. Are there any movements that have been sort of diff
he did or died out. Is there anything? What gives you hope? As you sort of look look to the
What to the future? Your here, your message of hope and well. I think in many places a I'm hopeful
the millennials during
in ins as small town and lived in Yorkshire, they're young people, that for
still some bracing LGBT Rights diversity.
Or anxious about the lack of jumps did, but they didn't go to the nativist rights, and so there
definitely a generational gap on the ground, so their parents were afraid that their children might not have a future, so they were
exclusionary nationalism, but the younger people were more hopeful
awesome. Thank you so much for joining a free to thank you so much, but the Americans brought you by parachute parachute. What are your dreams for twenty eighteen, John
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parachutehome dot com, slash crooked, guys we're going to play a game, but before we do, I have an update who, breaking with that. I have an update on the press conference between President Donald Trump
and your prime minister of Norway normally normally.
We're calling it normally now here's,
she did raise the Paris climate Accord, Chords and Donald Trump said the US,
Could conceivably re enter the Paris climate accords? He feels
strongly about the environment. He also feels very
only about repeating the last thing he heard, but that's pretty good with Kevin Mccarthy in the corner, saying what you meant. So we
we clear when asked about interfering with Muller Trump said no collusion.
But he did say he will. We will see on Mahler and on.
Daca. He reiterated needing a wall as part of the deal. So those are the questions they got. Those were the questions they got its ongoing
but that's a real time update. We could pass look at that, not bad for a podcast, not that alright, you guys ready play game yeah, it's like now for a game. We call we're not in the
in business anymore
We had some fun talking about.
Oprah, it's candy, to talk about twenty thousand twenty, but we're focusing on two thousand and eighteen, because
talking about a presidential election. This far out is ultimately a waste of time because things have a tendency to change far more than we expect
and so we're going to play a game tonight to make that clear, but anyway,
they're like to play we're not in the prediction:
is this anymore,
I believe Tonya is out there somewhere with a microphone you're, both in
and he's pointing at you. So that's pretty good hi. What's your name, I'm Caroline Caroline yeah, and where you from here I mean the whole
a good start. You sound like Jared Kushner in front of Congress. Okay, I'm a good company that was
never mind, never mind no you're doing wonderfully
what is the name of the city from what you're from holding
it's like it's like holding you just switched the or with the aliens holding holding holding. Ok, ok, and what was your name again Karen?
about that in the future, so
the game works, we're pull,
headlines and books and things that were written about people that were supposed to become president and did not
your job to suss out who we're talking about right? Are you ready
Caroline Caroline. Do you play
close attention to american politics
so you're wearing the shirt
Listen to you guys, sound, fairly, updated, ok,
it's our fault that she gets there right. Now I got it. I got it. I got it Caroline with the blame shifting and the shifting. Now she,
John Junior. I'm sorry, I'm kidding, let's play the game
question number one.
Time magazine hailed this candidate as the right wing answer to Barack Obama and put him on the cover which republican
we're talking about? And what did time
gisin call him? Was it JEB Bush?
Bush America will actually love
was it be Bobby Jindal?
Orleans saints that can't be stopped? Was it c
Senator Marco Rubio, the republican Savior, or was it D Governor Chris Christie?
the next big thing? I don't know whether last guys are children bunch of norwegian children going to need an answer. Caroline
I don't remember this, so I'm going to go with see Marco Rubio good
now then very good there? It is there, it is there. It is the republican Savior, Marco Rubio
Rubio became the new voice of the GOP
I cannot hear it.
You can't see it at home? We have the time cover up. We will tweet it out and we will tweet it at Marco Rubio just so. He remembered man, that's for you, Marco Marco Rubio, is not having the Senate Karere. He imagined just hiding
just hiding from the news question
Two thousand and six John Harrison Mark Halperin published the book the way to win.
Who had the best chance to win the two thousand and eight election an why. How many times was
aka Obama mentioned in that
was it a one time in a chapter on the importance of experience? Was it be five times in a chapter on the importance of change? Was
ten times in a chapter on rising diversity and youth in the United States was a zero times in no chapters, because the book did not in fact
so the way to win. I think I'm going go with D.
You are right that one was a comedy question within easy answer: let's face it all right. So, let's
let's not get too cocky, as we head into the final question. That question was more for us than for you absolutely question
conservative website red state ran with this confident headline quote this
the week that this candidate won the republican nomination? Who was that candidate? Was it a JEB Bush after referring to Donald Trump as chaos, candidate devastating blow
Was it be TED Cruz after his primary win in Wisconsin? Was it see Marco Rubio after he made fun of Donald Trump's hands?
us, or was it D Chris Christie after yelling, at a teacher at the state, fair which people thought
good. My first thought was a JEB Bush
it was in fact
TED Cruz. After his primary winning was Wisconsin, the article went on to say victory will
to cruise the man
he's run the best campaign and is indeed the best candidate and history will look back at this week and the Wisconsin victory and other wins as the turning points. Caroline. Yes, you are too for three yeah, which is very good, but none of those questions counted this
is the final question for which you will be playing for a hat. What is she playing for? You know what it doesn't matter. Question number four: for Caroline: in the run up to the twenty sixteen election, many pundits were handicapping the odds of Hillary Clinton losing to Donald Trump. When one,
It was asked him
We can't lose this thing. Can she he insisted now
a chance who was this famously wrong? Pundit? Was it a
Chris Cillizza Achei aka, the fix was it
Maureen Dowd of the New York Times was it see Tucker Carlson of Fox NEWS, or was it D, John
Jon Favreau, the pod save, which was this person who just got this whole thing
wrong. No matter what that missed, all the signals, I'm gonna go sorry d
so it was. It was the little boy, Caroline from Holden, how I knew it could do. What I did I said just full
what I did. How do I retained it by Holden Caufield, but within a at the front,
That's how I remembered it what's the county,
No, that's the city
put some letters together. It's fantastic EAST Fold, if you think of game of thrones or with
walkers are yeah. Give it out. Thank you playing when we come back we'll be talking to young. Through this, the deputy warden of holding prison in Hold Norway, that's very cool, very cool, but the Americans brought you by Seatgeek my little Zack look, who decided to show up welcome back seatgeek what changed yeah. We do something better long time, no see buying tickets to sports and concerts can be complicated and confusing. Okay, wait to find out about the clicks. I remember there's a better way to buy with Seatgeek if the smartest easiest way to get tickets to every type of live event, with your
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So those, I think about like the correspondence that, like the founding father, like Abigail Adams and John Adams, were writing back and forth and like the sort of understand along nice letters, they wrote and it's like that was the day. You know they sat down. They wrote a letter, I don't know. Maybe they read a book, they weren't very busy
You think they could have looked for tickets on some of those old ticket sites. Well, I just think that now that was a time where they could go to the box office. You know they weren't as slammed now you can only afford a couple taps yeah, I mean
they were less busy, but
It is very risky. Walking around you know, one cut and you're like
oh well best of all listeners, get windows out there for seeking purchased, download the c cap and enter promo code cricket today turn that promo code crooked, don't die of dysentery like like.
People in colonial times, you
could correct: is not you're not getting tickets to the Oregon, trail,
if you're free seek you purchase our next guest? Is the deputy warden of hauled in prison and hauled Norway young strewn? If thank you for joining us? Thank you for having me yeah. You were
deputy head of Halden prison, which is frequently referred to as the world's most humane maximum security prison. Can you walk us?
What life is like is an inmate at Holden and
What does it mean to be a humane prison? Okay,
well. First of all, let me say that
in a way. The only thing that's special about Halden prison is the facilities. The way we were
The philosophy of the values that's coming.
The whole in Norway and actually all the scandinavian countries so, but
the principles that, in a way you can,
being reflected in the architecture at home. Is the principle no
vality, as we call it. Many
life in prison should resemble life in the outside community as much as possible. So
see, for instance
call divided buildings around the area and that's too anyway,
with the everyday movement that you and I have we leave work in the morning- go to work. If I need to go to the dentist or the doctor, I'll leave work go to the doctor, so that kind
movement. We also carpet inside the prison. So that's one example about the principle of normality, so they go to work. Just you and me or
go to school, an there were really locked in during the night rest
they they are in activity, so they're using themselves, physically,
in a way building a better future. That way, you guys be
focus and emphasis on reintegration rehabilitation? How
as full do you think,
been in a preparing prisoners to reenter society and how easy
or hard is it to measure that success uh?
it's hard to measure it with regard to Reza, because that's the ultimate goal in a way to to compare recidivism
address and you content away, compare directed the figures for Norway and United States because they are measured differently, but what
air adding or we have a very low recidivism rate. It's approximately twenty percent
What we see is that the Mets leave Halden prison in are quite different state that they had when they came into,
prison because as soon as they come in, we start screening them. Looking
their needs and the
this, is in life we yeah. We make a future plan between the officers and the inmates and we start working on the issues that we have. If the
drug problem. We can offer them treatment if they have some mental health issues. There are treatments. If there are needed training in school, I mean based on
meaning we try to work on all the issues they have in life, so they can believe hauled in in a in a better shape. You know, and we see that they they do. Definitely no Norway's didn't always have prisons that were
this humane. When and why did? Did you make the decision to door make the decision to move in this direction?
in the late 80s uh. There was a kind of
sometime in the corrections service in in Norway,
There were riots in Oslo prison. There were two tragic deaths murders
correctional officers so
but the government found that what we had to make.
Some choices here. In what direction would you like to go? One such tragic
things happen that, in the normal reaction, would be to tighten security even more what we call the static security guards, security
losses, fences, barbed wire, etc. So that looked into is option.
The other option was to in a way
evolve the correctional service in them in a more humane direction and the
did government choose the last one to go in
more humane direction and found out that would probably solve,
The issues that we had on it did actually
Americans make up four point: six percent of the world's population, but american prisons hold
an estimated twenty two percent of all incarcerated people,
it's estimated that sixty eight percent of prisoners released in thirty
States in the US are
in two thousand and five were arrested for
new crime within three
So it seems obvious that
for some reason, we're incarcerating way too many people and then see
some isn't working when it comes to rehabilitation. You've been
a bunch of prisons in the US you them you met with wardens. What do you think we're doing wrong? I think revenge.
Is an issue in the states
not necessarily individual levels when I spoke to wardens and officers, but on a systemic level. I think revenge is an issue,
I think you was create a
fear- fear it's Michael.
Even then, and then my impression that the officers during their training they are in a way to alter their their their life is at stage or a
or they're risking life every day at work and of course that's creates fear.
Don't city inmates as individuals but as a group that you fear and then when you create that kind of distance, you have
You know I'd taken away some of the humane approach that you really really need. You need to have a humane, respectful dialog with
let's see, what we do in always is is not really rocket science. We just have these values,
No, it's not
think people humanely, because I mean you can see some
I agree, I don't know but uh
You can see an inmate in it in two different aspects. You can see, look at him as a criminal or you can look,
as a person has done something criminal and now, if we look at him as a person's done something criminal you,
except that he is more than his criminal actions and with that kind of attitude you are on the right track. With regard to treating people in uh,
national and humane manner.
Now, if you propose these kind of reforms in the United States,
see. I don't even know where he's going. One of the nicer things that might be said about you is that you're soft on crime. How did you
it in Norway. How did you guys sort of overcome some of the political challenges of putting some of these reforms in place and moving to a more humane system
I think we have an advantage there, because the political landscape isn't that divided in Norway
It is in in the states. So I guess,
we have, we have a lucky on that issue house.
Let me take North Dakota's next, an North Dakota has been in hold prison started the way we do question services.
Anyway, the director of the Correctional Department on the state level in North Dakota, which is a
a republican state, if I remember it correctly, yeah she could do anyway, everything as long as you held, held it in a way,
outside the newspapers Animedia. So if you just had it outside newspapers, the
Gator gave her anyway Carte blanche to do changes in the system. So.
It is possible also in the United States, and you will see changes now in several states actually has been to Norway, the last two three years studying our approach,
yeah, ok uh in the Usi think we talk about prisoners, people joke about, don't drop the soap! I mean people are there joke about treat,
people like in human ways, I
a program where I spent a data presented by the end the way,
It had opened up my eyes to the sort of humanity that people in this facility. The number of things that set them on this
Starting at age, nine or ten or eleven that got them to where they were. I finally understood that.
How do we
change the way our culture views prisons and prisoners and create more of a sense of empathy for people that might have made horrific evil mistakes in their lives.
But how do we get to a point where not judging them? For that mistake forever,
a big question. Anyway, I mean I mean you have to see beyond the
Don't misunderstand me: I do not descend it anyway. Their actions, but I see you
more at than criminals. You have to
Work on the issues that they
I deal with in life. I mean, if you look at
average inmate in Norway, approximately ninety percent, have some kind of mental health issue. Sixty percent are substance abusers lower.
Level, you have to work on all those issues while there are in prison in order to have any kind of success.
And you have to start where she just started
You have to start,
changing how your
go to inmates
uh. You have to look at them as individual people, not just a group of people, and you have to create a day
And environment in prison, really, if you don't trade,
with environments. In a way, the interaction won't work. Jan stromness, thanks
So much for joining us. Thank you, but the Americans brought you by the cash out cash out you're going to download the cash out we're switching to it. You can download the catch up on your friend's phone on your family's phone to put in the coupon say pod sab. Five dollars is going all over the place, so I once again after five dollars. They want to give this money out five dollars to you, five dollars to hurricane relief and here's the thing you guys get the
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free cash get something that Silicon Valley money you know get some of that in your pocket are going to use it to buy a bitcoin, don't use it to buy Bitcoin
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We're not using the other, using update,
does. Nato still exists.
Forgot's! I mean by the skin of its teeth. One thing that I forgot to mention the Donald Trump
did compliment Norway. He said one of the great one of your greatest assets is a thing called water,
shut the book, real he's referring to hydropower
congratulations on your water, Fjords, okay
we have time for a few questions, I'm wrong Dale
Can we ask the agents we don't have any senators to call? What can we do?
How are you? How are you with computers? How are you with computers, if you can, if you can send an email that says hey on my t, send me your password. It's totally fine, don't ask anybody else. If is okay,
it's a tough. You know were joking 'cause. I actually think it's a tough question should I do the pivot to seriously. Please do ok, uh.
You can't interfere with our elections, please don't!
but I guess technically, you can collusion aside, don't give up on us,
we are probably more reflective of the majority of the country's views on the world,
America's role in the world or values and aspirations than Donald Trump in the people
for him that you see are represented on TV,
so don't give up on us. We want to engage with you and be a part of the global community, we're not going anywhere we've sucked up in our elections before will do it again, but we can't quit you
you're stuck with us, hey guys when I was about it. Thank you for a great evening. Thank you going into some band. Then he touched on the importance of twenty eighteen. I'm really curious, though
What do you guys think about democratic chances of retaking the House and the Senate with and without
then I mean: isn't this a LOS in the chance of actually taking back that chambers
you're saying Bannon was a false flag operation. Well, I mean it's. Probably it's certainly better for the world. I would think I know you mean big scale, but I'm thinking that Ben supporting these primary loose crazy did nothing
false craziness yeah, wouldn't that hell,
I'm remind what, when we were researching for the game, we're looking for for headlines that we could smugly, read back to
There are whole bunch of them. They're like look as
Probably party, just you know, ended their chances by electing Donald Trump 'cause he's too right wing.
So I will never again be sanguine about eight extremist, far right candidate going forward really more. It took him being a literal, fucking child
after allegedly sue fall out of favor with these people. So like I'm, not I'm not.
For playing the machiavellian sort of politics that been in might be in that help, I think, he's a cancer on the society. He still going to stick around he's doing some right wing. You know dark money group. He says he seems to be living in a fantasy world where everything's going fine, but so I think his
His brand of policies will still be around. Unfortunately, yeah I mean Joe are Pio announced on the day that Bannon step down from Breit Bart, so these
are going away, he had been and not like this master
brain behind the operation where he goes away? All the candidates just disappear. You know like they're, all they're, still being as crazy as ever. So
and if you know in a band and doesn't give them a voice nationally, they'll do it themselves or some other people that the awesome views like the first White Walker. That's what I'm out. Yes, I mean I was thinking of an analogy that would that would then deserve
and ride on a tiger and the tiger threw him off
tiger still roaming around you were looking for, is looking for someone to each who's. The tiger Trump or the party trump is
on the tiger is a very big. It's a multi,
it's one of those tigers that has three rows of seats and that's the back row fold down. It's a lie flat, tire yeah! It's a tiger excel has been in the span of the ice Dragon spoiler
Where is nor in game of thrones, you guys get in real time. You're like two years behind real time. That's cool! That's cool! That's cool
The question hi. My name is Kelly. My question is short: I'm american, but now I live here and
and I were you from Before- I'm from Indiana
I'm so sorry about my friends. You know he's everyone's problem now you know what I'm sorry, but I want to it's not in the US. It's Indians fall, it's a one on a song, the reason, the reason he ended up taking the v p jobs because he was gonna, be rejected by in Indiana Yeah Indiana figured it out yeah, but he's like, I guess, I'll catch, this right out of town a lose and then retire to being a very weird person, but they
they figured it out and also didn't and that you had people like my mother, who had a repeal pence sign in her front yard, who still voted for him when he was on like a national ballot, which is blew my mind. So it's more complicated, but my
question is not my question is not in. That is that I was one of the organizers of women's March in Oslo last year, and thank you to everyone who came out. It was a huge success in. I can confirm that we here are feeling
same energy and activism that you are all feeling back in the United States and you guys are now pod tour
the world, and so I'm wondering, with your new perspective, what you think that Americans, outside of the United States, can do to help advance the progressive, because we work to a the stock on the vent we actually had.
Democrats abroad, their registry. Yes, so you're good! I wasn't sure if you guys made a father through excellent. Are you part of Democrats abroad? That's great,
that's a definitely register as many voters as they can who are expats around the world. We hope that happens. I also think-
We are finding out now that the old tactics of persuasion
television ads mail pieces, all this other kind of stuff. They just don't work anymore
this environment in this media, environment, this information environment and what works. What really persuades people is to persuade people in your social circle, your family, your friends, your neighbors
so you have plenty of people back in Indiana back in United States that you know talk to them.
Have them talk to their friends like we're, going to end up winning this back, winning the spackling back the Senate back and ultimately the presidency back by having you know,
neighbors talking to neighbors and friends, talking to friends an convincing people, the old fashioned way with grassroots politics and even
over here. You can do that through social media through email through a whole bunch of other ways. So talk to all your,
back home and then have them talk to all their friends, and I think we can build a movement that way
although you have been fantastic. Thank you so much we'll see you again. Sometime.
Transcript generated on 2019-11-15.